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Tuesday, September 11, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Amateur Experts
by Thomas Sowell
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Sometimes I feel as if I must be one of the few people left in America who is not a military expert.

For example, all sorts of politicians have been talking about all sorts of ways we ought to "redeploy" our troops. The closest I ever came to deploying troops was marching a company of Marines to the mess hall for chow.

But people who have never even put on a uniform are confident that they know how our troops should be redeployed. Maybe this is one of the fruits of the "self-esteem" that is taught in our schools instead of education.

The biggest flurry of amateur military pronouncements occurred just before General David Petraeus testified before Congress on the situation in Iraq. Many Democrats publicly dismissed what he said before he said it, and some implied that he was a liar before he opened his mouth.

The real problem is that many Democrats have bet the rent money on an American defeat in Iraq, and without that defeat they could find themselves in big trouble in the 2008 elections.

Politically, the Democrats are caught between Iraq and a hard place. Their left-wing base has been angrily pressing them to cut off financial support for the war in Iraq but Congressional Democrats dare not outrage the rest of the country by doing that.

Leaders of the Democrats in Congress have already tried various ways of sabotaging the war effort, with arbitrary timetables for withdrawal and financing the war for only short periods, so that President Bush would be forced to pull out American troops and could then be blamed for the defeat.

But that hasn't worked either because not enough Democrats in Congress are willing to risk political suicide by obstructing the military in ways too blatant to pass muster with the public.

The next best thing politically for the Democrats is to say that the situation is hopeless. The last thing they need to hear is that there is now some progress in Iraq.

Not only is General Petraeus reporting progress, so have a couple of Brookings Institution scholars who have studied the situation in Iraq -- and who are liberal Democrats who had worked for Senator Kerry's presidential campaign in 2004.

Progress does not mean inevitable victory, much less quick victory. Nor is it easy to define what "victory" would mean in the messy circumstances of Iraq.

One of most realistic of all the insightful statements by General Petraeus was that "We are not going to kill our way" out of the problems in Iraq.

There has never been a moment when anyone in Congress, the White House, or the military has ever advocated anything other than getting out when the time is right.

All the arguments, the rhetoric, and the shouting is about when is the time right.

Nobody thinks American troops have to stay in Iraq until the last terrorist is killed or driven out of the country. It is a question of reaching the point where the Iraqis themselves can deal with the terrorist and other problems of their country without American troops.

That is the direction in which the Iraqis seem to be moving already. It is not that we have "won the hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people.

The foreign terrorists -- whom our media still insist on calling "insurgents" -- have turned both Sunnis and Shi'ites against them with their barbaric attacks on innocent civilians.

You cannot be an "insurgent" in somebody else's country by killing the people of that country.

Those who warn that Iraq could be "another Vietnam" need to get their history straight about Vietnam. The South Vietnamese government continued to defend itself against military invasion from the north after American troops withdrew.

Only after congressional politicians pulled the rug out from under them by cutting off financial aid, while their enemies were still receiving financial aid from other countries, did South Vietnam fall to the invaders.

Only similar congressional sabotage, in response to similar left-wing supporters, can make Iraq another Vietnam.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Might I add just one thing
Just because you fought in WWI (or was it II?), like Murtha, doesn't mean you know squat about Iraq.
Just because you went to Iraq doesn't make you an expert - like some congress and media people think. Especially, if you never left the safe areas.

This article..
is refreshing considering all the obsfucation in the media on the War in Iraq.

What I find More interesting...
is politicians who have never served in war who decide to start wars.

ANd just wait
until these same "experts" "fix" the health care "problem".

One of your best
Dr. Sowell. Your statement that no one here advocates anything but getting out when the time is right clarifies the American role in Iraq. The controversy is merely when is the time right. Some folks think investing 600 lives per year is a poor investment. Some think the possibility of thousands of lives lost can be lessened by this investment. The tragedy is the people in power who are using Iraq as a platform for their own agenda, disregarding any effect or damage to our country and the citizenry at large.

hank
"What I find More interesting...is politicians who have never served in war who decide to start wars."

I see - if you've served in a war, it's OK to 'start' a war.

By the way, you sound like a military expert - when and where does a war start? When you take the first punch or decide to fight back?

We are in the 9th...
and twenty runs down. I admire the American spirit, but this is getting ridiculous!

Acetate
We threw the first punch when we picked up where the British left off in the 40's. We have continually backed non-democratic regimes in the ME and around the world in the interest of greed. This amoral foreign policy came back to bite us in the butt on 9-11.

I'd like to name a few of our "allies" in the ME.

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Egypt
Israel
Pakistan (roughly ME)

Yeah, all model democracies, right? Let them fight their own wars. We had our own Civil War and we came through it. When were we elected the world's police force anyway?

hank
I'd be interested in how paying for every barrel of oil we ever got out of the ME and how developing the natural resources of a country at our own expense and letting that country profit from the sale of those resources constitutes greed. Seems like the long way around to getting rich.

We were elected the world's police force during 2 world wars and every subsequent war where extremist totalitarians were trying to spread their wings. The English would not have survived without us, the French would no longer exist without us (their arrogance notwithstanding), the European union would have existed for the last 70 years but under the 3rd Reich. We should probably accept responsibility for Communist China since we defeated the Japanese who had designs on all of Asia and were well on the way.

You need to study real history instead of the revisionist version taught by the radical leftists currently infesting academia. One thing you should note about those professors - not one of them would be willing to live, let alone be able to survive, in the very governments they so admire.

hank again
Also, the notion that no one who has not been in the military should be able to start a war as opposed to allowing the military to run a war confuses strategy with tactics. People ignorant of how to effect a policy are perfectly capable of initiating a policy. The tacticians are required to execute that policy.

If your premise is correct, then no one except a doctor should be able to write a health care law. Try telling Congress that!!

Mr. wrong
"The English would not have survived without us, the French would no longer exist without us (their arrogance notwithstanding), the European union would have existed for the last 70 years but under the 3rd Reich."

Nice one. unfortunately, Iraq is nothing like Hitler's Germany. More like Johnson's Vietnam.

And the old US of A would not exist without French help in our revolutionary war. Maybe they should be the world's police force.

"If your premise is correct, then no one except a doctor should be able to write a health care law. Try telling Congress that!!"

No, but I'll trust my surgery to a SURGEON.

Your logic is just plain silly.

Again, I say you voted for BushCo and his war. GO FIGHT IT!

The spectacle of Sen. Biden...
Nothing typifies the arrogant and pompous ignorance of the self-appointed “expert” more than the ludicrous spectacle of Sen. Joe Biden calling out Gen. David Petraeus in front of a national audience. It would have been comical, were it not for the fact that Biden is the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. God help us all if he represents the best the Democrats have to offer.

General Petraeus holds a B.S. degree from West Point. He has a Master of Public Administration and a PhD in International Affairs from Princeton. He has held major commands in this nation’s elite airborne units. His tours of duty have taken him to every hot spot on the globe where the U.S. military has been involved. He has been rifle shot in the chest and has suffered a broken pelvis while in the performance of duty. General Petraeus has served his country with honor and distintion. His record and credentials are sterling and unblemished. But Senator Joe Biden, that colossus of intellect and integrity from the Great State of Delaware, knows better.

Joe Biden, lawyer and career politician, serial plagiarist, rabble-rouser extraordinaire, mangler of the King’s English and demagogue without parallel. Senator Biden is the poster boy for the oily, craven, self-serving politician. Some of his recent intellectual ruminations:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy, ... I mean, that's a storybook, man."

"I've had a great relationship. In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian Americans — moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking."

Joe Biden doesn’t have the credentials or credibility to scrub toilets in the capitol building. Who does he think he is, impugning the honor of a fine and accomplished American like Petraeus. Biden should be horsewhipped.

Biden, Wexler, Kucinich?
On what grounds do such icons of integrity and leadership impugn the honor and professionalism of one of America's finest miliary leaders?

These politicians would call Mother Teresa a whore if they thought it would serve their political interests. That is all you need to know about these sorry excuses for manhood in particular and the Democratic Party in general.

Hank -- ering to Lose
I'd like to name a few of our "allies" in the ME.

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Egypt
Israel
Pakistan (roughly ME)

Hank, you forgot to include Iran. Oh, wait! They haven't been our ally since Jimmy Carter threw the Shah under the bus. This led to the rise of Islamofascism in Iran.

Which country creates most of the problems in the Middle East, Iran.

hank
Your early posts were cavalierly naive. You've now crossed over the line into determined, adamant ignorance.

Vietnam was not Johnson's. It was Kennedy's. Johson's role was to completely bungle it. The big parallel between Vietnam and Iraq is this: when we pulled troops and support from Vietnam the Chinese backed communists in North Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos were emboldened and wreaked havoc on the populations of that region. Millions died, millions more became refugees rather than live in subjugation. The same will happen in the ME if we abandon Iraq.

The French in our Revolutionary War were simply doing what we have tried to do ever since - supporting freedom in favor of tyranny. The French notion of freedom got a little skewed during their own revolution but their support in the Revolution enabled freedom to flourish. Not unlike our role in subsequent years.

Yes, a surgeon is the best choice to perform surgery. But most surgeries are not prescribed by surgeons, only carried out by them. Your example proves my point. Study the difference between strategy and tactics.

If everone who voted for Bush must now go and fight his war, can we ask that everyone, such as yourself, who votes for weak-kneed, defeatist Democrats stand still while some terrorist comes over and slits your throat? That being the logical extension of not fighting terrorism? How about while you're leaving your surgery to a surgeon, I'll leave the fighting to the magnificent, dedicated volunteers who comprise our military? Strategy dictates destruction of terrorists who would wreak havoc on the free world. Tactics dictate allowing the military to do its job.

Sandman
I think you are referring to Karl Rove.

Mr. Wrong
Sorry, Truman started it. Ike and Kennedy simply picked up the torch. Johnson, on the other hand, tragically "stayed the course".

"The French in our Revolutionary War were simply doing what we have tried to do ever since - supporting freedom in favor of tyranny. "

And talk about NAIVE. You really think they could give a damn about our fledgling democracy? They were in it to bankrupt England among other things. You do realize they were in competition with the Brits for World hegemony?

And your doctor analogy...yawn.

crossdresser
Which country creates most of the problems in the Middle East? The USA!


At least Hank can read
Hank, at least we know you can read. You have quoted some of the most famous lines from that bestseller - "Inane Shibboleths of the Democratic Party".

You will like the sequel - "Vapid Logic of Democratic Losers"

Hanky proves the lunacy of the left
What pure drivel!

Dr. Sowell, great job again! It is know-it-alls of the left that proclaim someone a liar before he speaks. It must be an enormous weight knowing everything before it happens and then being so wrong even after it happens and never learning anything useful from history.

Mr. Right, you can't win arguing with libdolts like Hank, they will twist and spin and churn and bubble until they make absolutely no sense whatsoever and call it a successful, logical arguement.

hank -- I Surrender
The entire conservative base is no match for your superior intelligence.

Please enlighten me O'guru of all knowledge. You personally believe the USA creates most of the problems in the Middle East? Regale us with how this is so.

Hank
Was kos or huff too busy and you couldn't get on with your simple minded, wrongheaded blather?

As usual, your posts demonstrate an utter lack of understanding of history and bitter bias against your own country.

The USA DID create havoc in the ME with the silly policies of poor reasoning by dipsticks like you (and Jimmah Carter), but now we are trying to create a new paradigm.

For people like you, nothing we do is satisfactory unless it involves no pain, feels good and allows you to firmly install your cranium back up your rectum.

Please go back to bed (or hide under it) and men with more integrity and guts than you, face down this insidious evil which has been festering for 1000 years while very few were willing to combat it.

Oh, by the way, I'm a VN vet with 18 more years in the NG. I'm 58 now, but holding 3 critical MOS' could be called to serve again and would proudly go. My brother, brother-in-law, cousins and many friends are currently in the ME or have served. What service to country do you offer, other than foolish, childish whining and venomous, vitriolic pap?

Hank - Huh?
What the bloody hell does Karl Rove have to do with anything that has been said by me or anyone else on this thread?

What's next? Are you going to discredit Petraeus' report because he leaves too big a carbon footprint?

Seriously dude, you need to lay off the Code Pink Lady Koolade. It's beginning to rot your brain.

Hank - Huh?
What the bloody hell does Karl Rove have to do with anything that has been said by me or anyone else on this thread?

What's next? Are you going to discredit Petraeus' report because he leaves too big a carbon footprint?

Seriously dude, you need to lay off the Code Pink Lady Koolade. It's beginning to rot your brain.

Hank -- Huh?
What the bloody hell does Karl Rove have to do with anything that has been said by me or anyone else on this thread?

What's next? Are you going to discredit Petraeus' report because he leaves too big a carbon footprint?

Seriously dude, you need to lay off the Code Pink Lady Koolade. It's beginning to rot your brain.

Iraq theater of war on terror
Do you think the United States does -- or does not -- have an obligation to establish a reasonable level of stability and security in Iraq before withdrawing all of its troops?

2007 Sep 7-8

Yes, does 67%
No, does not 29
No opinion 4


The latest quoted USA/GALLOP poll all the Liberals in Congress have been tauting. HAHAHAHA What is not conveyed is the fact that in EVERY catagory of survey, public opinion (although not in the majority in some) has become more favorable for our Iraq mission, and as the above points out...overwhelmingly in favor of us finishing the job of preparing Iraq for life absent us.

Now, I read that the public has more faith in Dems to handle the IRaq theater of the War On Terror, but when I look at the numbers they poll 1% ahead of Congressional Reps and not faar ahead of Bush! The US military has the overwhelming faith of the US public, and that is the bottom line in this poll, and that is also what makes the Liberal campaign of dicrediting the report of the US military commander of the IRaq theater of the War On Terror so important for them! At the costs to the USA of???????? Liberals really don't care because they hate this country and desire only the power in government to complete their job of destroying it.




Hank
Was kos or huff too busy and you couldn't get on with your simple minded, wrongheaded blather?

As usual, your posts demonstrate an utter lack of understanding of history and bitter bias against your own country.

The USA DID create havoc in the ME with the silly policies of poor reasoning by dipsticks like you (and Jimmah Carter), but now we are trying to create a new paradigm.

For people like you, nothing we do is satisfactory unless it involves no pain, feels good and allows you to firmly reinstall your cranium inside your rectum.

Please go back to bed (or hide under it) and men with more integrity and guts than you, face down this insidious evil which has been festering for 1000 years while very few were willing to combat it.

Oh, by the way, I'm a VN vet with 18 more years in the NG. I'm 58 now, but holding 3 critical MOS' could be called to serve again and would proudly go. My brother, brother-in-law, cousins and many friends are currently in the ME or have served. What service to country do you offer, other than foolish, childish whining and venomous, vitriolic pap?

Sorry about the multi posts
I am off this website for the day. I can't handle Townhall's second rate server. Life is too short to squander it on pikers.

hank
You may be dumber than a left-handed monkey wrench but you are ever so clever at changing names in an attempt to appear witty.

Once again you confuse strategy with tactics. Yes, the French wanted to, at the very least, embarrass the English. Any French realist knew already at the time of our Revolution that dreams of French world dominance were fading fast. Supporting us in giving the British a black-eye was one of the tactics in support of that strategy. Just as our tactic of supporting freedom and defeating totalitarianism is in support of our own strategy of freedom for ourselves. We are not free when we spend all of our time guarding against groups who want to fly planes into our buildings or other such acts fo gross terror. The strategy of eliminating those groups who seek to do us harm is sound.

Something the radical left has never seemed to understand is that spreading freedom makes us more free. Allowing tyranny to flourish unchecked makes us less free. Capitalism is a major component of freedom. And yes, freeing other countries will, by virtue of free trade and capitalism, make us richer. But it also makes the recipient of the freedom richer and more secure. If you can explain how that's a bad thing, you will have accomplished something no liberal has ever done.

Sent to my congressman--no response
MY INNER THOUGHTS " All this, bitter selfish talk about the war that we are in, is really not helping our dedicated troops to win.--The more we criticize this war, and the people they want to save, make terrorists think they are right, and leads the innocent to their graves.--We should really count our blessings, and everything thats dear, if we do not complete this job, we could be fighting here. Other countries would have joined us, if we only did unite, but why should they want to help us, if we are divided in this fight?--I'm sure the Iraq people must really be confused, as half our country wants to help them, the rest are saying (we lose).--I pray for all our troops and mission,until we have won,and also pray to shut the mouths, of negativity until their job is done.--My grandson will be on his third mission soon , with all my prayers and love, so before we speak against his job, I pray with all my heart, every one will hold their tongue before they even start.-- God Bless our troops, their mission, their people in charge, and God Bless America.

Obviously...
Congress is not the only place that has self-appointed military experts.Townhall is full of them ,also.Of course,opinions are like you-know-what,everyone has one.


God,how I miss Universal Miltary Training!

Dr. Sowell is an American treasure
No one can explain a situation as clearly as Dr.Sowell. He cuts through all of the BS and tells it like it is in brief, clear, accurate facts.

Amatuer Experts
People forget that war is politics by other means.

The last resort when "diplomacy"yields no progress and national interests (political, military and economic) are threatened. That is the cauldron that military leaders operate in.

What a lot of the so called experts are trying to do is inject politics into war that have nothing, in reality, to do with national interests. Only the self-serving interests of the elected official pygmies who think they know everything and who have a doting press that gives them a megaphone and all the ink they want to stir the cauldron pot the generals are desperately trying to calm.

Yeah, I look at Harry Reid, Nazi Pelosi, and Chuckie Schummer and compare them to the guys in uniform - - the real experts - - and I am ashamed for the voters of Nevada, California and New York.

Obviously...
Congress is not the only place that has self-appointed military experts.Townhall is full of them ,also.Of course,opinions are like you-know-what,everyone has one.


God,how I miss Universal Miltary Training!

"Wes Clark is a reliable expert?"
Sentido, you must be joking if you consider Wesley Clark to be a reliable expert. This is the man who was removed from command in the Balkans by President Clinton for serious ethical concerns. Imagine having Bill Clinton fire you for ethical reasons...wow, now that's bad.

If you recall, the NATO commander for that mission (a British general officer) had to repeatedly rein-in Clark when he point-blank tried to disobey the direction he was given and tried to push the Russians into a confrontation. Since that time, Clark has proven himself to be a slimy toady of the left...saying and doing whatever they want in the hopes of one day having a political career.

bawaa
your bloggers are liars, but what else would you expect from democrats

i'm sure
anthony thomas would want unity if his pres had started the war to defend us....oh thats right dems don't defend us, they surrender.

Anthony Thomas
I want nothing better than to have my grandson and all the troops home safely and proud. Can you explain how you or congress can manage to do that? Will you bring all of them home at once, and leave all their equipment there for the terrorists to use against Iraq people and us. Will you bring half of them home, and have more of our troops killed in the process? I am not in charge of our troops, and I don't have the answers, but I have enough common sense to know what you and congress would like to do is not an option, Why don't we leave it up to the General, I am sure he wants my grandson home safely with all the other troops. I must remind you my grandson and his troops voluntered for this job, and who are you to decide if he was right or wrong to do so. I am very proud of all of them, but dissapointed in the negativity against them and their mission.

Anthony Thomas and knight of-baawa
first anthony can you please tell me what lies were told that got us into iraq and after you are done talking about wmds nonsense then could you explain how Patreus is a bush puppet.

knight_o_f-baawa could you please provide links to theses so called blogs. i have heard that one of thous guys lied about the various things he said he saw and did. Of course Michael Yon ad indpendent imbeded reporter says the troops he is with are all gun ho and think progress has been made.

How befitting
that the Dem symbol is a donkey. Stubborn and stupid to the point of ridiculousness. You think disparaging the President, the Generals, and the troops is going to win over those to your idiocy. I am tired of your ignorance, I don't care about convincing you, and quite frankly if you don't get out of the way you will be run over. Stay in the Twilight zone because you obviously can't handle reality.

Anthony Thomas
I would like nothing better than to see my grandson and all the troops home. I would like to ask you and congress how you plan to do that? Would you bring them all home at once, and leave all their equipment there for use against us and Iraq's? Would you bring their equipment home first and let them be without? Would you send half of the troops home and take the chance of all the others being killed by the terrorist, and make the decision of who gets to come home first? I don't have the answers, so I will leave the decisions up to the General. I must remind you, my grandson voluntered as did his troops. I believe our General and our President wants them home safely as much as I do.

War is hell
War is hell! From a long historical perspective our founding father decided that civilians not the military should decided if and when we went to war.

Many wise men have said throughout history that you only remain at peace by always being prepared for war. Over and over in our history we have had to relearn this wisdom. From the late 1980s until 2000 we allowed our political leaders to take the best prepared military in the world and start it down the road of unilateral disarmament. It is not because we are at war in Iraq that our military is stressed it is that a Democratic President with the help of a Republican Congress dismantled our active duty military.

We are the richest, freest and most powerful country in history. We do not have to do anything to cause people to hate us and desire to take from us by force what we have. The barbarians at the gates of Rome were there for the riches not to take over governing the Rome Empire.

Another excellent article
Dr. Sowell,

Thank you for your no-nonsense approach. Your articles are informative and insightful. I look forward to every posting.

I pray everyday that Bush con't. fighting for our safety and freedom. And to keep liberals from ruining this great nation with their cowardice and anti-American philosophy.

Bawaa's Blogs
Like that certified liar Scott Beauchamp!

Joltin' Joe Biden
Wasn't he the guy who presented a doctored college transcript the first time he tried to run for President?

zzx375
In answer to your question...yes. He also has a knack for sticking his foot in his mouth.

Liberal Stupidity comes home to Roost
The Liberals have backed themselves into a corner. They are beholden to Moron.org, DailyKook, Communist Underground and Gutless, Hollywood, Cowards for money. However, if they do as these America Haters tell them, they WILL alienate upwards of half of the electorate. Katie Couric says The Surge is working, Dr. Sowell mentions The Brookings Scholars that say The Surge was working. Recently, several active duty soldiers in Iraq have posted to TownHall saying the surge is working. If soldiers in a war zone have time to post on TownHall, THE SURGE MUST BE WORKING!

Just like Dr. Sowell said, military experts (HA!) showed up on TownHall this morning. These Gutless Liberals always have the same answer. Run & Hide! They are not fit to clean the boots of the US Military! I have made this offer before, I will buy a ONE-WAY ticket to France for any America Hater that wants to leave.

The Surge is Working?
I think the problem here is how you define "working". Has some violence gone down? Almost certainly. When you have thousands of armed soldiers heavily patrol a region, violence will be curtailed in that region. The real question is whether or not we are making progress toward getting Iraq ready to replace our troops with their own. Here, the picture is not so clear.

The following video has some interesting thoughts on the Iraq war:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dp8m9ft6z38


The blackest eye
in this whole Iraq war was the spectacle of Lantos and others calling General Petraeus a liar before he spoke a word. Every bit of mud, slime and s*** thrown at the General leading our troups hits them too.
Those senators should be impeached.

Baawa's Blogs II
Those Blogs are no more reliable than Scott Beauchamp's concoted fables designed to smear the name of our military.

Sentido...
Actually, Sentido, Reagan did just that. According to the "experts" of that time, he invaded Grenada with no provocation. There were countless proclamations from many liberals on how the administration was merely looking for a war and that they had "cooked the books" on the threat from Cuban military "advisors" and "engineers" on the island, as well as how there was no real threat to American students on the island. While Grenada and Iraq are not comparable in the nature of their conflict at all, the point remains true: Reagan was accused of invading a sovereign nation with no provocation.

Also, Sentido...
Many of the military officers cited by some of the esteemed Democrat congressmen yesterday are on record as supporting Gen Petraeus. Many of those military leaders have expressed the same support for the surge and the same concerns about the divisions within Iraqi civil society/government as a whole. The vast majority of them have not disagreed with Gen Petraeus at all. What we saw yesterday was a great example of some individuals taking certain comments out of context and attempting to portray them in a different light.

General Petraeus did address those specific comments as they were brought up. He stated, without equivocation, the true context in which they were presented...and stated that the military leaders cited were on the record supporting the surge and the progress to date.

Further...
You only hurt your case when you mention Wesley Clark as a military expert who is on Nancy Pelosi's speed dial.

I did not miss the point. I merely drew upon the reference you made.

It's quite smarmy and slimy for politicians motivated by personal agendas to slander a great warrior such as General Petraeus. He literally wrote the book on combating insurgents/irregular warfare. If there is one man who can turn this around, he is the man for the current situation. He has dedicated his life to service...and placed that life on the line repeatedly. To scrutinize his report is one thing; to slander him as they did is criminal.


Yeah, Thomas Sowel
Tell it the way it is and I hope some of the armchair generals at this site are paying attention.

What happened to Congress waiting?
We were supposed to believe that Congress was going to await the report by Amb Crocker and Gen Petraeus before making any judgments/decisions about the success of the surge and the situation in Iraq. However, almost all of the Dem candidates made comments in the last week about how dismal things are in Iraq and how it won't matter what the report says. We also have Sen Biden on record stating that the war is being lost and that Gen Petraeus' report won't change his mind at all.

So much for objectivity and putting partisan bias aside, huh? So tell me again how the left is not investing in the defeat of this nation?

Iraqis More Honest, Better Than Congress
The most disreputable government officials and politicians in the Iraq debate are in Congress not in Iraq.

Iraqi government is much closer to being fully functional, dedicated to freedom, and with minimal inteference from corruption than is this Congress.

Sentido
To add to Rich, when you made that assanine statement, I remembered watching the news about Reagan blowing up some places in Libya. Granted it wasn't a full invasion, but it was an attack to get khadafi's attention...And it worked, the guy still hasn't crawled out of his hole except to whine once or twice to the press. If he had kept on, the Gulf war would have started about 6 years sooner. Reagan wouldn't have put up with the crap that's going on right now and you know it.

Marion
I agree. I was appalled at Lantos.

present their military resume.
For those who want to prove that their military background entitles them to proclaim an opinion on a military subjects, they should present their military resume.

For me, when I was 15 years old, I played the baritone horn in the Ohio State Guard Band, and I believe that experience provides me with as much military knowledge as several of the members of Congress who questioned the General yesterday.

You wonder how I was able to be in the military at age 15? Well some of the other members of the band were in excess of 65 to 70 years old, and we figured the average made at least a couple of us legal.

Well, I don't want to appear more knowledgeable than the Members of Congress, but I did serve in the Army twice, and had my 18th birthday in the Merchant Marine, on a troopship in the harbor at Singapore. So I do outrank several of them.

Tom Lantos' Nazi reference
Lolo2 writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 12:16 PM
Marion
I agree. I was appalled at Lantos.
--------

lolo, Do you remember the following, when Lantos, during a Congressional hearing, … … …
-----
Friday December 19, 1997

Tom Lantos' Nazi reference spurs spat in Washington

MATTHEW DORF
Jewish Telegraphic Agency

WASHINGTON -- Rep. Tom Lantos (D-San Mateo) sparked a war of words this week when he said a witness at a congressional hearing was hiding his past, much in the same manner as a former Nazi had concealed his.

Lantos grew incensed during the hearing as Republicans questioned Donald Smaltz, the independent counsel investigating the former U.S. secretary of agriculture.

Google - lantos, nazi, and look at first item.

If only soldiers
are fit to decide matters of international policy, such as who to fight where and when... why did the Constitution not make the head of the joint chiefs the chief executive? Why do we have elections? Why must Congress allocate funding for a period of no more than 2 years for the raising of an army?

I never served in the military, much to my regret. At the end of the Indochinese war, I was 13, and believed the media propaganda about how our military and soldiers were no darn good, and I didn't want to be in such a worthless organization.

However, I have been a student of history, particularly military history. In 4th grade, I wrote my first biographical essay on Patton. I aced American history two years running (we moved, and the new school offered it a year later). I know the significance of the battle of Lepanto, and why it took 22 years for the Romans to chase down Hannibal (and what happened when they did. I know that 1998 years ago this month the XIX legion of Rome was destroyed, and why.
I can tell you the historical significance of Plataea. I can quote Napoleon with the best of them: "the moral is to the physical as 3 to 1." and I know Tallyrand's admonition, "you can do anything with a bayonet, except sit on it." (which would have made Germany's eventual aggression clear to the Allies had they but remembered...)

So I feel qualified to voice an opinion on matters military. More than qualified, in this day and age of the almighty dollar... when it's MY TAX MONEY being spent.

Leftists are invested in defeat
Knight of Banality asks in his 11:21 post how anyone who is anti-war can automatically be presumed to be anti-American. The answer is they are not. Being against a war, even this war, does not in and of itself mean you are anti-American. Rooting against America, on the other hand, and actively working to sabotage America’s chances for success in Iraq does make one anti-American, however. A good many leftists in this country, including many of our elected officials, most certainly fall into this category.

It is clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear that many leftists WANT the U.S. to fail in Iraq. Their reasons run the gamut from crass political interest to cultural self-loathing, and they have proven by their words and deeds that they will willingly put their nation and fellow citizens in harms way in order to advance their own agenda.

Reasonable and patriotic people will certainly disagree about the need to have gone to war in Iraq, as well as the best time and way to extricate ourselves from the conflict now that we are in it. But those who are advocating withdrawal under circumstances guaranteed to ensure unfavorable and unacceptable results are not allowed the courtesy of presumed loyalty. They are traitors and should be identified as such.

Biden* is a traitor
He has declared the war a failure and has done everything in his power to insure that failure becomes a reality. When he makes statements concerning the war, it is for the express purpose of reducing support for continuing it. When he makes statements regarding the conduct of our armed forces, it is to malign them.

In short, he does not want to win it, he does not want to finance it, he does not want to support those who are fighting it, and anyone who is trying to win it will incur his malignant wrath. For whatever poisonous reasons explain his state of mind, he is willing to abet a humiliating loss to this nation and its strategic interests, and doom countless Iraqi civilians to violence and upheaval that dwarfs anything they have suffered as a nation these past four years. I think the citizens of Delaware have a lot of explaining to do to the rest of the country for foisting such a pathetic loser on the rest of us.

* Feel free to substitute any one of numerous other Democrats’ name here – Lantos, Wexler, Kucinich, and countless others are equally appropriate.

Questions
Rich & dtr –

You are right on the money. Nice job.

knight_o_f-baawa –

Have you heard from Beauchamp recently? He confessed to making up lies. As to Reagan cut and running; you are right. Reagan was great, but he set a bad precedent in Lebanon. So your point is…..? Is cut and running a good or bad idea in your mind?

Why is it that we hear all this belly aching and hyperbole from the left about Iraq, but we do not hear from the men and women – save a few disgruntled who didn’t believe they would have to actually fight when they joined the military – who are the one’s sacrificing over there?



Night in Kenya
I think I found your perfect candidate!
Support Mercer for President!
http://www.mercerforpresident2008.com/home.html

He promises to end this war, and all wars, past, present, and future.

What??
Jdw – That was a wonderful anecdote. But I am at a loss as to where you were trying to take us. I must have missed it; what blogger stated that only soldiers are fit to determine international policy? That is the purview of the president – veteran or not. And virtually all military leaders – save Wesley Clark – would agree. But once war has been initiated, it is absurd to micromanage from the Halls of Congress. Thankfully for the Allies, Hitler thought he knew more than his generals. And, if you are the student of history you claim, you would know that mistakes are always made in war.

And to any of you so-called “anti-war” zealots out there: What war has any anti-war movement ever stopped? You didn’t stop Vietnam - else wise there would still be a South Vietnam. And you didn’t stop us from being dragged into WWII.

A Realistic Timetable for Iraq
We should not stay in Iraq any longer than we stayed in Germany and Japan after World War II. Thank you again Dr. Sowell for telling it like it is.

WHERE IS GEN G.PATTON
FOR ALL OF YOU THAT HAVE A DOG IN THIS RACE, YOU MIGHT WANT TO GO TO THIS WEB SITE AND CHECK OUT THIS REMAKE OF WHAT GEN GEORGE PATTON, HAD TO SAY TO ALL THAT THINK THEY KNOW ABOUT WINNING A WAR.www.military.com, its free to get a pass word and view real things posted by our fighting forces, you will be more inlighten about the war on terror & how to win. there is no congress or senators that can give a better veiw on this subject.no spin, just the truth.if you have a weak belly, you might want to cover your eyes on some of the videos, war is hell, & its real.

jim
I unfortunately remember it well.

jdw
Do not discount your contributions in life. the world needs people like yourself as well.

Rob
I think you have missed alot of liberal posters here who think that if we support the war we had better be in the military or retired military.

right and wrong
We were right to go to war; we were wrong to stop fighting the war and start nation building. Governor-general. Boot on neck. Obey U.S. soldiers or watch neighborhoods die. Buildup of troop forces in preparation for invasion of Iran and Syria. Change recruitment system to promote career soldiers in military. Use the glory of war in recruitment advertising to acquire the kinds of soldiers we want. That's what we should have done.

But we are where we are, and hindsight is 20-20. Now we have to stabilize Iraq so we can go back to building up our forces in preparation for the invasion of Iran and Syria.

Bringing the troops home now is like bringing our G.I.s home after the conquest of Tunisia.

Anthony Thomas
You do not have to support a war on lies, you can support our troops on there mission until they are safely home. I do not know anybody who is always right, nor always wrong. It amazes me that you do, but also shows me you have a closed mind.
Does it not amaze you that every person in the administration lies, every person who was not confirmed lied, every person resigning (after I must say being mentally abused) lied and lets not forget our President was accused of lieing. I think I would check into all the truths that have been told, and see if there could be a balance. I think if we all supported the troops and their mission, we would scare the heck out of all the terrorists, then maybe other countries would support us.

I give you Dr. Sowell's words
Rob, he said it himself:

" But people who have never even put on a uniform are confident that they know how our troops should be redeployed"

Which means only people who have donned the uniform should dictate foreign policy.

hey, rich rove
" This is the man who was removed from command in the Balkans by President Clinton for serious ethical concerns."

How loony! Karl I thought you retired?

rodmaster
"The USA DID create havoc in the ME with the silly policies of poor reasoning by dipsticks like you (and Jimmah Carter), but now we are trying to create a new paradigm."

Couldn't agree more. Carter should never have dealt with either the illegitimate leader of Israel or Palestine.

Both were terrorists. It is a crime that Truman was so beholden to his friend Eddie Jacobson.

If he could have seen what was coming, maybe he would have created a Jewish State Crawford Texas?

But he was our terrorist
Stop trying to make an equation where the two sides are equal.

palestinian = moslem = enemy. Israeli = jew = friend.

Simple equation.
I keep hearing about how terrible our policies in the middle east were, but I don't hear what was so terrible about them. Because we picked one despotic moslem warlord over another to rule over territories that should rightfully be ours anyway?


algib
"A Realistic Timetable for Iraq
We should not stay in Iraq any longer than we stayed in Germany and Japan after World War II. Thank you again Dr. Sowell for telling it like it is."

for those of you like al who think this war is analogous to anything in WWII. PICK UP A HISTORY BOOK ON THE SUBJECT OF WWII!

I'll give you a great one:

"The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer

You will see more parallels between BushCo and Hitler than you will see with Iraq.

lessee...
Hitler was a xenophobe who wanted a globe-girdling German empire. Bush is an illegal-alien loving globalist who wants the U.S. to be just another cog in the international machine.

yeah, the parallel is obvious.... not.

I would support Bush wholeheartedly if I truly believed his goal was a global American empire.

Rob
I'm no liberal, but I didn't vote for the clown in the White house a second time either. If I had, I would have to go fight. It would be unethical for a person to vote for George Bush a second time, knowing full well that meant unending war. The difference between WWII and Iraq Is that we HAD allies in WWII. Hell,even in his daddy's war we had a bigger coalition.

rightwingmom
Do you have a son or daughter in Iraq right now?

jdw
Not sure where you are going with that, but good luck man. I admire your spirit.

hank
And our so-called allies cost us dearly in the second world war. Without our leadership and material, they would have lost. As it was, they kept interfering with our strategy, so that our politicians (*cough* Eisenhower *cough*) kept pandering to their feelings instead of telling them to shut up and do as they were told until we fixed the problem.

Then, again pandering to our "allies" and Truman's beloved communists, we let them interfere with the reconstruction after the war (note that Japan recovered a lot better under only U.S. control.) That led to 50 million dead and half of Europe suffering 50 years of communist domination.

Screw 'allies'. Do what needs doing, do what's right for your people, and real friends will be found right beside you.

JDW
Absolutely agree! Unfortunately Iraq wasn't right for America. No "terrorists" were there before we invaded and now we are simply creating more terror babies as long as we stay. We brought al qauda 1400 miles closer to the US by invading Iraq!

So yeah, if I believed this nonsense that "we are keeping them on the run" and therefore out of America I would be fighting myself.

I have two opinions on Google
Lolo2 writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 3:00 PM
jim
I unfortunately remember it well.
----
jim writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 1:02 PM
Lolo2 writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 12:16 PM
---
lolo,

The interesting thing (to me) is that somehow as I read your comment on Lantos at 12:16, I remembered that I was watching CSPAN at that very moment, but I never expected to find the actual record. How I could have remembered that, and then went on Goggle and found it as the first hit on page one, is rather interesting.

I have two opinions on Google. It has billions of bits of misinformation, and no way to eliminate it or correct it, but then it does supply a lot of good answers, probably most to questions that were at best trivia. But I am there regularly.

al-Zawahiri was in Iraq as early as 1992
and the al Qaeda 2nd in command was killed there by US troops.

Saddam allowed training of non-Iraqi terrorists in Salma Pac, south of Baghdad, before we invaded.

The 911 Commission concluded Saddam and his aid to terrorsists intended sending cadres against Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, Iraq's neighbors, and the Kurds, Saddam's reluctant oil-rich northern citizens.

Saddam famously gave $25,000 to each family of suicide bombers in the 2nd Palestinian "uprising," He and the former Nassar Arafat invented the horrow of suicide bombers before al Qeada even used rhem.

renny
be interested to see your sources on the al-zawahiri stuff.

Also, I have made this point before. Our foreign policy regarding Israel has caused even secular leaders in the ME (saddam)to support "terror".

If we approached our relations with the region based on the American ideals of justice and rationality rather than the Bible, we would not have supported Israel. A country, I must remind you again, whose existence is based on TERROR!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

Our oldest son
is currently and, I might add, gladly, serving in Iraq. Our youngest son wants to enlist when he's old enough (in another year) to do so. Does that mean I can have an opinion about the war?

Iraq needs only the chance to get its feet under itself to deal with the homicide bombers. Slowly but surely it's getting there. Israel is by no means quiet, but it is peaceful because its government can at least keep the lid on its maniacs. Iraq will eventually be able to do the same.

Sheesh.

hank
we do have allies in iraq or do you not count the birtish, the australians, the japanese, or the other 31 countries that have formed the so called coalition that is in iraq. your ignorence is shameful

Alive
I pray your son is alive too. I hope he lives to see an end to this occupation.

And Israel peaceful? Ask the citizens of Western Israel how peaceful katyusha rockets are. Also remember that EVERY young Israeli is required to serve in the military. Its not because Israel is at peace.

What a sad situation.

we continue to live as we want
I have no idea how to get out of the mess we are in at the moment, but I believe that if the UN, and the US and everyone else, had done as I suggested 60 years ago, maybe we would not have this problem. I don’t like the fact that people live under the political conditions in Iraq, and a hundred other countries in this world, but I don’t see how we can force them to live like we do, and I certainly don’t want any of them to force us to live as they do.

I am the original isolationist and nationalist — no Korean War (Whoops, I met my Sweetie because of the Korean War), no Vietnam, Iraq, or any other war since WW II, when it was obvious help was needed, for a good reason.

Over 50 years ago I visited the United Nations HQ twice, at Flushing Meadows, NY, before the UN building was built in NYC. I don’t know who I talked to, it may have been the janitor, but I asked that all immigration be stopped, worldwide. If you were born there, you stay there.

Except for one thing, Invitation. If a country asks you to come, you can, but you have two or three years to eliminate all signs of your previous culture, and completely adopt the culture of the country you went to, or out you go. Remember, a country has two things, and two things only — a border and a culture, if you violate either, out you go.

Diversity as it is intended to be, is from country to country, not the phony diversity of people going to another country, and taking their culture with them, and refusing to assimilate.

Don’t have us worry how people live in Iraq, let’s just make sure we continue to live as we want in this country.

hank 2
hmm how is isreal's existance based on terror? or did you mean haveing one of the best miltaries in the world to beat off all the surrounding hostlie nations. Or is the jews terror of another holicausts that lead them to create isreal.

dang boy you are starting to sound alittle anti sematic.

chr
I provided links. check it out for yourself.

This is the part that gets me. The leader of one of zionism's most notorious terrorists tried to make a deal with Hitler.

n January 1941, Stern attempted to make an agreement with the German Nazi authorities, offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for helping Jewish refugees to come to Israel into a Jewish State. Another attempt to contact the Germans was made in late 1941, but there is no record of a German response in either case.

I am no anti-Semite. I have suggested in the past that the US open its doors to all Israelis who would like to resettle here. A lot of bright people from there could be the catalyst for a technological renaissance here in our country. Much like after WWII.

I am simply a realist who knows the "kibbutz" experiment in Palestine has been a complete failure.

PS. I'm no lover of wikipedia, but at least it provides source material to analyze.

chr
"we do have allies in iraq..."

Come on. You can't even go there. You only weaken your argument with statements like that. Can you give me the numbers of "coalition" soldiers on the ground there?

They are allies in name only.


jim
Sorry buddy but I have to totally disagree with your last post.

kill our way
"We are not going to kill our way" out of the problems in Iraq"

We killed out way out of WW2, Korea, Viet Nam, Granada, Bosnia & Kosovo, Iraq 1, and Afghanistan, when those marines got shot down in Somalia they killed their way outa there too.

There's no quicker path to victory than simply killing your enemy-ask Patton or Sherman.

I think that's our primary problem with America's military, our government's unwillingness to allow them to kill their way out of any problems.

When your enemy is dead the problem is solved, it takes a minimum of 13 years to grow a human warrior, we can produce bullets by the hundreds per second, far faster than the Muslims can breed new troops, if we kill their women their ability to replace troops is eliminated-forever.

Lets not "play" war lets "wage" war, this aint no game, if they had the ability to annihilate us they would.

smitty
You are advocating another "Alamo". It is futile.

Hank you are a disgrace
hank writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 5:33 PM
"Alive
I pray your son is alive too. I hope he lives to see an end to this occupation.

And Israel peaceful? Ask the citizens of Western Israel how peaceful katyusha rockets are. Also remember that EVERY young Israeli is required to serve in the military. Its not because Israel is at peace.

What a sad situation."


Hank you have sunk to new lows even for a piece of leftist garbage!!

Your message to AliveInHim was the most sickening piece of tripe I've seen posted here in a long time. You are the lowest form of politically motivated trash to ever disgrace the pages of TH and as far as I'm concerned you sould be banned from ever darkening these pages again.

I don't care how much you hate GWB, and you hate the country of your birth, I don't care if your mamma dropped you on your head, I don't care if you Are the only living human being without a brain. You absolutely DO NOT mistreat the mother of one of our brave fighting men!!!!!!

You aren't worth the sweat from his big toe. and the sad part is, in your tiny little wrinkled black stone you call a heart, YOU KNOW I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!

What a sad excuse for a human being.

The French in our Revolutionary War
Mr. Right says "The French in our Revolutionary War were simply doing what we have tried to do ever since - supporting freedom in favor of tyranny."

I disagree, the French saw an opportunity to poke the Britsh in the eye and took it. It has nothing to do with freedom.

isolationist and nationalist
Lolo2 writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 6:52 PM
jim
Sorry buddy but I have to totally disagree with your last post. (at jim writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 5:35 PM)
=====
Well lolo, you gotta agree with the first sentence. (I have no idea how to get out of the mess we are in at the moment), cause I ain’t got no idea how to do that, that makes sense even to me. And I am an (isolationist and nationalist).

I do believe that we must control the borders of our country, and that every country should do the same. The only people who can visit, or live in another country, must have permission, and an invitation from that country.

The way we help others to become a country like ours, is to continue to be a country like ours, and let everyone know how we do it, but we don't try to force them to like it, or force them to change to our form of government.

For example, I think a few McDonald’s in Cuba, would do a lot more for those people, than to continue the boycott. So far we have permitted only a one way trip for Cubans, and that does not help Cuba, and from what I heard and read, it hasn’t helped Florida. I wonder how many of them will return to Cuba just as soon as the ‘ol what’s his name admits he’s dead. And on and on, and on!!!

I think a discussion for each of us to present our firm belief on this subject, would require more than the space available on TH comments.

Came from 911 Commission
out of the CIA. Unlike the so-calkled news reports, the 911 Commission found all kinds of terrorist ties to Saddam and Iraq. Instead of letting people tell you what's in something, read it yourself. (A very interesting read is the Warren Commission, which actually addresses almost every issue the Kennedy-assass. conspirators have traded in over the years.)

Israel is not the reason Muslims are killing Buddhists in Thailand, not the reason the Taliban blew up 1500-yr.-old statues of Buddha in Afghanistan. Israel is not the reason Muslims are killing Jehovah's Witnesses and animists in the Philippines.

Israel is some great red herring in the Middle East, as if the area were a peaceful, loving place prior to Israel's creation.

Islamism is part and parcel of the Koran (Qu'ran). Read some of it. But Mohammed understood the power of the sword as he was always a fighting prince. He est.'d his religion by conquest and forced conversion. The exact same pattern is simply now on a global scale.

Lolo2
After revisiting some of the posts , I concede that you are correct that many leftists conclude that one is unqualified to opine in support of the war unless they have a military background. (But, somehow they are qualified.???)

Apparently, since the posts were generally accompanied by such idiocy I must have blocked them from my memory.

Though when I find posters such Hank siding with jdw, I question where he is at.

Jim
You old codger, I can relate to much of what you are saying, though I am not in total agreement. I am somewhat a nationalist, but not an isolationist. That is not practical – perhaps not even doable – in today’s world. But I do hope you are Republican, because the Democrats are trying to turn us into Europeans. When someone once asked me why I vote Republican, I replied: Because only one of the two parties is going to be elected and Republicans screw things up at a slower rate. Besides, Democrats somehow think our tax dollars are their money, not ours.

Iraq war
Actually it's not the Iraq war. It's the war against terrorist. I think we won the Iraq war in about 28 days. But then came the peace keeping. How long did we stay in Germany after WWII. Me thinks we are still there, but we do not have crazed muslim snipers and bombers trying to kill us 24/7.

All of the democratic speakers want to end the war quick. That could be done but it would take probably a year to get all our people and supplies out of that sand hole.

Does anybody know what will happen then. Will the Shiites and sunnis make peace and let the new government in Iraq rule the country. If you think that will happen maybe you should not be allowed out in public with supervision.

But nobody talks about that except for some stuff I've read on The Heritage Foundation.

Another thing nobody talks about is the rotton rules the Border Patrol agents are supposed to be living to. And the rotton trial of the two Border Patrol agents still in jail. A real put up job if you ask me. A judge that doesn't support the people or the laws should be put out of office. And why aren't the lawbreakers who hire Illegal Aileans in jail.

Answer: Nobody cares.. Except me and nobody cares what I think. Certainly not my elected officials and senators. DEMO pinkos.

jackie
Take it easy kitten. You are gonna give yourself a hemorrhage.

renny
Maybe you could give us an excerpt with a citation. That's a pretty big report. You must have it on hand, right?

salute Gen Eisenhower
Rob writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 8:44 PM

You old codger, I can relate to much of what you are saying,
------
Well Rob, be careful someone might accuse you of agreeing with me, and that could mean trouble, right there in your city.

By the way, did you read my military qualifications at

jim writes: Tuesday, September, 11, 2007 12:50 PM

And in addition to that, I once was close enough to salute Gen Eisenhower, and I consider that one of the nice days of my life. Not the best, but nice.

Well I did meet and talk with Governor Reagan over a dozen times, but before I brag too much, I'll go lie down for a while.

Does anyone read anymore????
I read the tidbit about Iran and President Carter. For those of you who do not read, please look up the history of Iran. It had a democratic government prior to 1953. The president of Iran at the time was going to nationalize the oilfields, but the Brits and USA oil companies didn't like that idea at all. So M-5 and the CIA basically hatched a plot and he was killed. The Shah was installed, and he was totally ruthless.
I think the CIA calls the aftereffects backlash. But then, what would an old North Dakotan know?

For Sig...
Actually, Sig, the Brits & British Petroleum were the driving factor in overthrowing the democratically-elected government of Iran (under then-President Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh). You are correct that the USA stood by our ally Britain and allowed Kermit Roosevelt (yes, related to FDR) to hatch a plan and overthrow the government of Iran (all because the Iranians wanted more than pennies on the dollar for their own oil...which British Petroleum was raping them for). I am continually disappointed in the lack of backbone the American govt possessed in standing up to Britain and telling them to negotiate in good faith for a more equitable profit sharing of Iran's own oil.

At this same time, the US oil companies had renegotiated their oil deal with the Saudis, providing a more equitable division of oil profits and creating the huge ARAMCO (Arabian-American Corporation) oil giant which exists today.

Shouldn't you be doing this?
Dr Sowell:

Your piece reminds me of that brokerage ad that starts with a doctor in scrubs talking on the phone.

"You've sterilized the area?" he says, "Now make an incision between the fourth and fifth abdominal muscles ..."

The scene switches to a clueless, unshaven man in a sleeveless undershirt looking down at an oyster knife.

"Shouldn't you be doing this?" he asks.

General David Petraeus is a Doctor. His Princeton PhD is in International Relations. He literally wrote the Army manual on counterinsurgency. He is a combat commander and he knows the Iraqi situation better than anyone on earth. As a West Pointer, he does not lie - not for politics or money or personal gain or even if directed to do so.

The congressional democrats are the guys looking down at the oyster knife.

Antiwar is not anti-America
Joan Baez was, and still is, antiwar. She believes that wars are not necessary and should be avoided at all cost. Her father refused to work on the Manhattan Project because of a similar stance. When she went to Hanoi, she interviewed many of the POWs, memorizing their names and hometowns. Upon her return, she gave the information to the DOD, who were able to change their status from missing to POW.

Jane Fonda was, and still is, anti-American. We have all seen the picture of Jane sitting on the anti-aircraft gun smiling at the NVA who were torturing our POWs and holding them as hostages. Her friends in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia only won after some of the same democrat politicians cut and ran. Kennedy, Kerry, Obey, Murtha, Byrd were all there, against America.

In 1978, Baez traveled to Cambodia to see first hand the kind, quiet, scholarly new ruler - Pol Pot. When she returned home, she reported the massive human rights violations, even genocide, being carried out by the Khmer Rouge. For that, Fonda had her thrown under the bus.


The White Revolution
Here is what caused the islamists to rebel against the Shah. He was an enlightened, Western educated monarch who decided to reform his wealthy but corrupt feudal land.

These were the main points of his White Revolution

1. Abolition of Feudalism Land reform: Bought land at market value & sold it a 70% over 25 years. Freed 9,000,000 Iranians (40% of the population) Took land from clergy.

2. Nationalization of forrests & pasture land. Green belts & reforrestation

3. Privatized Gov't Industries

4. Profit sharing: 20% of profits to workers

5. Universal Sufferage: Big problem with Mullahs

6. Literacy Corps: 2/3 illiteracy. Took power from clergy.

7. Health Corps: Universal Hillary care.

8. Reconstruction & Development Corps: Ag production 80%

9. Houses of Equity: 5 elected village elders mediate claims. Clergy fought it

10. Nationalization of Water: Irrigation 2 million acres in 1968 to 5.6 in 1977.

11. Urban & Rural Modernization: running water, public baths, electricity, schools & libraries.

12. Improved educational curriculum to suit modern life. Took power from clergy.

13. Workers' Rights to Ownership

14. Price stabilization: end profiteering

15. Free Universal Compulsory education

16. Free food for mothers and newborns to age two

17. Social Security & National Insurance (100% wages at retirement)

18. Stabilization of Rents & Real Estate prices. Took rents from clergy.

19. Anti Corruption campaign

Sounds terrible, doesn't it?

Agreed, Arch
I agree Arch. What his critics cite as proof of the Shah's brutality is the crackdown that he conducted on the growing Communist influence in his country as well as the Revolutionary Iranian islamist groups (such as the one to which Khomeini belonged).

Yes, the Shah's crackdown was harsh. However, he wasn't dealing with mere dissidents or peaceful demonstrators. He was dealing witht he same types of radicals that we see today in power there. That said, given the crackdown and brutality demonstrated by the Islamists in power since the overthrow of the Shah, does anyone seriously think the Shah was worse?

Hindsight being 20/20...
In retrospect, we would perhaps have been better off supporting Muhammad Mossadeq and his nationalist government while stiff-arming the British & French governments into recognition that their days of colonial empire were over.

Since our national leaders did not have the strength of will or principle to do that, we are left with the present situation.

Supporting the Shah
For two decades, we supported the Shah as a pro-Western, anti-Soviet ally in the ME. As a USAF officer, I personally was sent to Iran three times between 1973 and 1975. We sold Iran billions in military hardware to counterbalance pro-Soviet forces in Iraq. At no time did the Shah's human rights violations approach those of Saddam and his sons.

Our mistake was not supporting him against the communists and the islamists.

RE: Supporting the Shah
True, Arch. Very true. If you notice, though, it was a Democrat President (Carter) and Dem-controlled Congress that managed cut-off funding for the Shah and leave him hanging...and forcing millions to flee or face persecution.

This is the same modus operandi they exercised in abandoning South Vietnam and cutting off all military aid for them...leaving them at the mercy of the Communists...resulting in millions dying and millions more having to flee...and setting the stage for Cambodia to fall w/equally bloody results.

Now, this same party is telling us that doing the same in Iraq will not have those same results...and yet they wonder why the public feels they cannot be trusted with national defense.

Rich
Why is it you want to save everyone else but your own countrymen? REAL patriots advocate for the interests of their OWN country.

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriot

The domino theory you are in love with is a myth. Look at Vietnam, China and to a lesser degree Cambodia today. Guess what? Thailand never fell as predicted either.

Why do you "care" so much about these other countries. Is it your evangelical agenda?

Fact is, if we had never intervened in the first place, these countries and their people would be just fine. Read the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence. These people have roughly the same values of self determination that we do.

http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/van_kien/declar.html



Vietnam
Hank:

The domino theory worked. When we allowed the North to invade the South a third time, the Pathet Lao and the Khmer Rouge took control of Laos and Cambodia. The Case-Church Amendment to the FY75 defense appropriations bill prohibited our use of military force in North or South Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia. In 1975, we were forced to sit by and watch our former allies fall.

Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia held because America still had substantial combat capability in the region and these countries were not covered be the Case-Church Amendment. Also, the surviving states had ample warning of our withdrawal, allowing them to build formidable defenses.

My knowledge did not come from some left wing website. In 1971 and 1972, I was assigned to the 366 Tac Fighter Wing at DaNang where I was a weapons systems officer in the F4E (AFSC N1553B). When you read about the Eastertide Offensive and Operation Linebacker, I was there. My BA is in Asian Studies.

Dead-On, Arch
Nicely stated, Arch.

What you omit, Hank is that the Pathet Lao slaughtered uncounted masses in their rampage across Laos. Pol Pot massacred millions when his forces took over. North Vietnamese Communists further massacred millions in the South when we removed our support from the South Vietnamese government...and forced millions more to flee for their lives.

That, my friend, is the Domino Theory in action. Why is it that the Left refuses to acknowledge history? It's there and has been recorded for all to see. You cannot deny that.

Further, Hank...
Hank, I have to wonder why you ask if I have an "evangelical agenda". I merely pointed out historical facts. I did not promote an agenda. I simply acknowledge the realities which exist.

Additionally, the interests of my "OWN Country", as you state it, lie around the globe. That fact is inescapable. You cannot duck you head into the sand and call that a national defense/foreign policy as liberals seem to advocate. You cannot appease tyrants, that has been proven a failure historically aslo, as liberals demonstrated through their folly repeatedly.

We have trade with almost every nation on the face of this planet to some degree or another and strategic interests tend to develop from economic interests, security concerns, etc. (just to name a few)

To use your train of thought, we should not ever go to war or become involved in a conflict that does not involve a direct attack on the continental US. Such thinking is naive and ignores the realities of the world in which we live. Then again, you seem to ignore a great deal of realities (such as the damage done in Southeast Asia by the Dem-controlled congress cutting-off support for our allies there).

Lastly...
As for the "Vietnamese Declaration of Independence" that you touted, you should read the writings of Karl Marx or Mao sometime. They sound wonderfully warm and Utopian in concept also.

However, in practice, they are brutally oppressive and cruel in the privations they inflict upon the masses. Communism does not seek to give people the hope to rise above their current level. Communism failed miserably because it seeks to bring everyone down to the same level...inflict the same measure of suffering on everyone and in the process obliterates individual initiative and achievement.

If you read any of my previous posts, you would realize that I am not supportive of French/British attempts to return to pre-WWII colonial status in their former territories. As I clearly stated above, the US (as a beacon of freedom to the world) failed to hold their feet to the fire. Truman and Eisenhower missed golden opportunities to nudge the British along the correct path with Iran and the Gulf States. They also failed to hold the French to task on supporting a peaceful transition to democracy in Southeast Asia.

Yea what Rich said!
Rich is spot on, particularly with regards to communism. More than once I have had proponents of communism tell me directly, that is is better for an entire society to be poor than it is for just a portion to be poor, while the rest do well. Communism is all about the collective. That means for example, forcing a woman to abort her female child because society as a whole needs more males. This is why socialism is such a disgusting failure. It is essentially Communism-lite; only the proponents of socialism are too naive to see that they are just a step or two away from the kind of government where Stalin ruled.

Killing
Actually, you can kill your way out of any war. How do you think wars are won?

Arch
I know you Vietnam vets want to believe you were fighting for something noble. That is normal when you have friends die in your arms. You want desperately to believe it was for SOMETHING.

Fact is, most war is senseless and greed driven at its core. Not to the foot soldiers, but it is civilians who start the wars.

Unfortunately, No members of BushCo who thought this war was a good idea, have ever experienced combat. They will never know its true costs firsthand.

Iraq never attacked us and this fairytale notion of creating a beacon of democracy in the Middle East could only come from those who have never smelled death in person.


Rich
"North Vietnamese Communists further massacred millions in the South when we removed our support from the South Vietnamese government...and forced millions more to flee for their lives."

Got the numbers on this "massacre" you speak of?

I can say with confidence, if it REALLY happened, that it pales in comparison to the estimated 5 million the good ol' U. S. of A slaughtered.


Rich
"...I have to wonder why you ask if I have an "evangelical agenda". I merely pointed out historical facts. "

I can only assume. Those of us who take the first amendment of our constitution seriously, left the party when the snake handlers made their agenda known.

Where are
them danged communists? I can't seem to find my pinko brothers anywhere! Can anyone help me? I'm scared.


bob
"That means for example, forcing a woman to abort her female child because society as a whole needs more males. "

I can see you pay attention to your minister on Sundays. Any chance we could get you to pay attention to current events on the other days of the week?

Thank You, Thomas Sowell.
Thank you for your insight, common sense, and willingness to share it with others.

Everyone should hear your clear thinking.

Hank's Blather
Pinkos are at A.N.S.W.E.R, SDS, IVAW, VVAW, Code Pink, DailyKos, MoveOn and HuffPo.


Vietnam
Read the US Constitution. Civilans command the military. Like Vietnam, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were approved by large bipartisan majorities in both Houses of Congress. Nobility of cause is not required.

1. If you die in battle in an F4, it's not in the arms of anyone. Death comes in an explosion or with violent impact with the ground. Your concept of war is the one depicted by Hollywood.

2. In Vietnam, we lost 58,249 Americans. The North Vietnamese lost about 600,000 and the South Vietnamese, about 500,000. The War cost about 1.15 million lives.

3. "Peace" was much more costly. The Sainted North reeducated to death 850,000 South Vietnamese soldiers and government officials and their families. About 1.5 million South Vietnamese fled their country as it was being overrun. 10% were estinated to have died in the journey. Losses in Laos are difficult to determine, but in Cambodia Pol Pot killed 2 million of his own people. The Democrat cut-and-run Peace took over 3 million lives.

4. Vietnam was a proxy war with the Soviet Union. The North invaded the South three times - Tet in 1968, Eastertide in 1972 and again in 1975. The South never invaded them. Obviously, you think it is acceptable to abandon your friends. I do not.

Wars in Middle East


1. Most wars are fought over national interest. The threat in Vietnam was the Straits of Malacca. Afghanistan was about al Qaeda, you may have heard of them. In Iraq, their dictator said he had WMD and used some (nerve gas) on his neighbors and on his own people. We took his country in 17 days. Al Qaeda and Iran invaded so we are killing them in large numbers.

2. Do not expect Iran to get a nuclear weapon unless it one of ours connected to a drogue chute.

3. Al Qaeda is our sworn enemy. Osama calls Iraq the central battle in his jihad. Our troops are there to kill al Qaeda and this surge is giving them a splendid opportunity to do so.

4. If it is "fairytale notion of creating a beacon of democracy" in Iraq, how do you explain their three elections? Anbar Awakening? The collapse of Sunni insurgency? The flight of the Al Sadr?

Your arguments are as weak as your "facts".

Insurgent
"You cannot be an "insurgent" in somebody else's country by killing the people of that country."

Sowell nailed it. Hey libs, guess what, AQ is in Iraq. They chose to be there to engage our troops and fight a war. When are you going to ask that AQ redeploy?


Hank
Hank, as astute as you are at yanking baseless, unsubstantiated numbers out of your arse, I would think you could easily find the well-documented figures from the Communist slaughter in Southeast Asia on the internet. In case you cannot, here's a couple quick links for you:

http://www.kmike.com/Vietcong.htm
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/sagan.pdf
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/hoan.html
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~sdenney/Vietnam-Reeducation-Camps-1982
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/jacqueney-vietnam.pdf
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,948014,00.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/review-wctwf.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20030215155233/http://www.laohumrights.org/laowht02.html
http://www.mekong.net/Cambodia/watched.htm
http://abacus.bates.edu/Library/aboutladd/departments/special/ajcr/1978/Cambodia.shtml

These are just a few examples of the many dozens of links available. Many are links to actual studies done by NGOs/private organizations, publications such as Time/Newsweek/etc., and based upon surveys & interviews w/just a few thousand of the millions who fled from this horror.

Then again, I guess I can understand why people such as Hank (and his idle, Noam Chomsky) continue with their delusional denials regarding the horrors of Communism...if they ever admitted the truth, they would be forced to accept responsibility for their role in abetting this slaughter.

Rich

"What you omit, Hank is that the Pathet Lao slaughtered uncounted masses in their rampage across Laos. Pol Pot massacred millions when his forces took over. North Vietnamese Communists further massacred millions in the South when we removed our support from the South Vietnamese government...and forced millions more to flee for their lives."

Your greatly exaggerating the part about the No, V killing "millions in the South."

We are responsible for the mass bombing of Cambodia and the consequential rise to power of Pol Pot and the Vietnamese are the ones who came in and stopped it all.

As for the domino theory that was a bust.

Have people ever considered how many would be dead, given the rate of death the years before we left, if we had stayed in Veitnam another 10 or 20 years?

Not even going to waste my time..
with anyone who believes this:

"...Anbar Awakening? The collapse of Sunni insurgency? The flight of the Al Sadr?"

OR this:

"In Vietnam, we lost 58,249 Americans. The North Vietnamese lost about 600,000 and the South Vietnamese, about 500,000. The War cost about 1.15 million lives."

Where'd you get these figures? No body can say DEFINITIVELY how many Vietnamese died.

Wow! doesn't get any more retarded than this. I suggest you get a rifle and helmet and check out these "facts" for yourself. Unfortunately, guys like you wouldn't make it one day on the ground.

Well, unfortunately for you.


Oh Rich...
Your brain is a scary, scary place. So your real agenda, like most neocons, is to protect your zionist experiment at all costs. You don't give a damn about this country. Can't believe I didn't figure you out long ago. You are a sneaky one.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/

I know you've never lived in Israel and probably never will (because you're a wuss), but Most ISRAELI friends I have, who ACTUALLY live there aren't even as militant as you. It is only settlement fringers like Benny Elon and Paul Bogdanor (and the millions of weirdo evangelicals here)who share your warped and idealistic vision for Zion.

The Bible is a nice book, but it isn't much different than the writings of Joseph Smith or Jim Jones. You are out.

Vietnamese casualties
What most people do, who would like to downplay the casualty numbers for the Vietnamese side, during that other misguided war of aggression, is to neglect actual Vietnamese Government docs.

"Documents declassified by the Vietnamese government in 1995 revealed that 5.1 million people died during the Hanoi's conflict with the United States. Four million civilians died in the North and South. Total military casualties were put at 1.1 million and 600,000 wounded. Hanoi concealed the figures during the war to avoid demoralizing the population.[125]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Casualties

The Agence France Presse (French Press Agency) news release of 4 April 1995

See, what I love about Wiki is they CITE their sources so you can have a look and they USUALLY use reputable scholars or declassified documents, not some wacko with an ax to grind.

I stand corrected
Looks like Vietnamese gov. docs do give a fairly definitive accounting of their dead.

I stand corrected
I guess all soldiers in Vietnam were issued their own private F4 Phantom AIRCRAFT. Please accept my deepest apologies.


Vietnam
Apology accepted.

Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Military, COIN
Hank:

What's your experience? Combat time? Insurgencies? Have you any relevant experience or are you another example of the point Dr Sowell is making?

You are an amateur expert or just a fool?

SandMan - In re: Joe Biden...
--
...the "serial plagiarist"....

Migawd, fella, do you live in Delaware by any chance?

You speak of that scumbucket as if you're personally familiar with him.


--
"Senator Biden, a Constitutional Professor with decades of legislative experience may very well be the most enlightened Constitutional Law scholar today. Rather than working to see to its protection the Senator has used his vast knowledge and experience to construct a system of laws that have done more to undermine our natural rights as acknowledged by our Constitution than all other federal law combined. Moreover, this Senator cannot plead ignorance for his actions."

..-- T.L. Tersak; see:
http://newsbyus.com/more.php?id=7213_0_1_0_M

Surgical Logic
Thank you for another common sense article Mr. Sowell.

Brainwashed, fanatical minds are dangerous. The Saudis are now supposedly working to deprogram their youth who have been tainted by the radical clerics. I don't know what has taken them so long and I honestly don't know if they can be trusted. They are working against us here in the states with their radical teachings in mosques. It's the Saudis who are supplying the textbooks. And I know there are Saudi youth fighting our troops in Iraq too.

Looks to me like Anbar was the progress the clerics in Iraq needed to see, and it has given them something to hold on to and hopefully trust. I'm sure they are as sick of this as we are. But the more of this "cancer" we cut out, the safer the world will be for future generations.

That is the big picture that emotional liberals can't seem to grasp. They have this misguided notion that all war is bad and everything can be achieved through diplomacy. It hasn't worked. And that's never been a historical fact of life. They can't see war as a logical, surgical solution to achieve the world peace they want so badly. We won't achieve one without the other. Not now, because we allowed it to spread for far too long by trying it their way.

I ask myself if a liberal had cancer would they not declare war upon their own bodies in an attempt to survive?

Hank...
Once again, Hank, in wonderful form you ignore the actual information and attack the webhoster (Paul Bogdanor, in this case). If you read my posting and then actually clicked on the links I cited, you would see actual publications/reports, etc. on the topic in question which had been scanned-in and posted. You would have noticed that these are not reports by political right-wingers or "some wacko with an ax to grind" (as you attack). One article, in fact is by a refugee and another is a testimony from an international aid worker...and the list goes on.

However, I understand your inability to actually deal with the crux of the issue...it's much easier to attack a person rather than discuss an issue. You label me as an "evangelical" and attack Bogdanor (while never actually examining the material).

Further, for anyone to actually use Wikipedia as a source, that's laughable. No one with any credibility cites Wikipedia anywhere in their research. Why? Because it was not necessarily compiled by experts or recognized authorities. It is based upon input from anyone...and as we can see from your rantings here, just because someone types on a keyboard does not make their output fact or even intelligent.


Rich...
Rich, I understand your skepticism of wikipedia. Fortunately, I am well versed in doing scholarly researh. I learned at university that not only do you question materials, but you scrutinize the authors as well.

This Bogdanor fella you love to quote is not a scholar, but a zealot. Here are a few of my favorite selections from Bogdanor:

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/communists.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/secondholocaust.html
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomskyisrael.pdf

This guy even hates fellow Jews. He is a complete nutjob! And you have the gaul to say my sources are crazy?







Also Rich...
I do appreciate Wiki, because I can look at the sources provided to make sure they are legit. I don't just take the writers word for it. That is why I cited the source behind my statement:

Agence France Press, 3 April, 1995

And what is your point any way? Are you saying the 100,000 + that forced into "reeducation camps" comes any where close to the 5+ million the US military killed in Vietnam?

Also, remember that Ho chi Minh, came to the US government for help against the French Occupation and we turned him down.

'Ho Chi Minh is leading the Vietminh—a popular movement of Catholics, Buddhists, small businessmen, communists and farmers—in their fight for Vietnam’s independence from the French. He makes a dozen appeals to US President Roosevelt, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee for help, insisting he is not a communist and suggesting that Indochina could be a “fertile field for American capital and enterprise.”'
[Herring, 1986, pp. 10; Pilger, 1986, pp. 188]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0072536187/centerforcoop-20

So, what is your point? That Vietnam was a noble war? That, Iraq is a noble war?

It is the Cheneys and the Bushes who have a stake in oil. We have been duped by them in order to line their pockets. Even Greenspan admits that now. FINALLY, he acknowledges what most of us have known from the beginning. This is a war FOR OIL. Our sons and daughters are dying in vane. You think this is OKAY?

WE HAVE HAD ALTERNATIVE ENERGIES FOR MORE THAN 100 YEARS! DIESEL DESIGNED HIS ENGINE TO RUN ON VEGETABLE OIL!

I say you have ulterior motives. I believe, given your sources, that you are an American Zionist, who would love nothing more than to have the USA fight Israel's wars.

At least be honest when you argue the case for Vietraq.
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