Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, July 03, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Upsetting the Elite
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


With the White House, the leaders of both political parties, and the media all solidly behind the "comprehensive" immigration "reform" bill, how could it be stopped in the Senate, as it was last week?

The people stopped it. That is what democracy is all about.

When members of Congress began to be deluged with angry letters, phone calls, and e-mails from their constituents, they knew the game was over -- and that their careers could be over if they didn't pay attention to what the voters were saying.

This bill was an insult to people's intelligence from start to finish, and the elites are continuing to insult people's intelligence after being defeated.

Fraudulent arguments were followed by fraudulent procedures to rush this bill through the Senate without committee hearings, with restrictions on debate, and with the specifics of this huge bill being sprung on the Senate at the 11th hour, so that senators would be voting on something they barely had time to read.

Among the fraudulent arguments was that illegal immigrants were taking "jobs that Americans won't do." What that really meant was that they were taking low wages that Americans wouldn't take.

Another fraudulent argument was that "We can't find and deport 12 million people."

A much bigger problem than these 12 million people are the tens of millions of additional immigrants who are virtually certain to come in, legally or illegally, if amnesty is extended.

After all, there were only 3 million illegal immigrants the last time an amnesty bill was passed, back in 1986. That's how we got to 12 million.

Research at the Heritage Foundation indicates that tens of millions more people can be expected to come over the border from Mexico in the years ahead unless something is done to stop them.

The "comprehensive" immigration "reform" bill offered nothing that was likely to stop them.

Former Attorney General Edwin Meese III exposed how little this bill added to border security laws already on the books, in a June 7th column in the Wall Street Journal.

Now that the elitists who wanted to rush the immigration bill through Congress before anyone could examine what was in it have been defeated, they tell us, with great condescension, how foolish we were to leave the problem unsolved.

There is now a continuation of "silent amnesty" they say.

Clever, but no cigar.

There is no inadequacy in our existing laws on border security that the new bill would have remedied. But no law is adequate if it is not enforced.

Non-enforcement of existing laws by the federal government and active sabotage of these laws by state and local officials who forbid the police from reporting illegal aliens to the authorities suggest that existing laws could be effective -- if enforced.

When the new immigration bill gave the government just 24 hours to "investigate" each illegal immigrant before rubber-stamping him into legality, it is clear that there was no serious intention of investigating or enforcing the new law.

You can't get a credit card application approved in 24 hours. But Congress was prepared to fling open the borders to millions of people on the basis of 24-hour investigations.

Talk about investigating illegal immigrants was just window-dressing to fool the gullible public. When the public turned out not to be as gullible as the politicians and other elites thought, the answer has been to insult their intelligence some more.

Now the elites tell us that the protests were generated by conservative talk radio programs, and there are implications that this was due to xenophobia, if not racism.

Anyone who actually listens to conservative talk radio or reads those who opposed this immigration bill will know what a crock that is. Elitists should at least come up with some new smears, instead of repeating the same old tired insults.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
We, the People...
... in order to form a more perfect union, have told the elites where they can shove their amnesty.

Classic. It's times like this that I love being an American. None of that Father Politician Knows Best b.s. that got so many other nations (most of them socialist) into boiling hot water. As usual, it's us middle class folks versus the self-righteous and opportunistic big-wigs, who have never had compunctions about using us to achieve some Utopian or politically expedient end.

People who come here illegally are criminals, and should be treated as such to the extent and nature of the crime of spitting in the face of American immigration law. The bleeding heart position that they should be allowed to walk all over our laws and the people those laws are meant to protect really represents nothing more than a position of forced altruism. It is a provincial perspective that totally disregards the welfare of the law-abiding aggregate in favor of propping up people who prefer to flee their desperate circumstances at someone else's expense.

Instead of taking the easier route of breaking our laws and availing themselves of our resources in order to pump money back into Mexico's joke of an economy, our Mexican neighbors might want to put some real effort into making their own country suitable for living. That way, they wouldn't have to leave their nation of origin, and their Mexican pride might not ring so hollow.


-- M. Cooper

So let me get this straight...
... anyone who disagrees with Dr. Sowell's views on immigration is an "elitist", since seemingly a majority of the public was against the bill yet some senators held on because they thought it was right. Is the President and others who continue with a policy on the war in Iraq that they believe is right but with which a majority of the public does not agree an elitist on those grounds as well? At what point is it "elitist" to stand up for what one believes is right and good in the face of opposition, and at what point is it "principled" or "courageous"?

There were plenty of things wrong with the bill and the methods employed, and in the form in which it was presented I would've voted against it also. However, the rhetoric employed in this debate distorted and misrepresented a lot of what the proponents of immigration were trying to do, or at least many of them.

Good column, and the next question is
Where's The Fence?

That's the title of a new essay on my blog (click my name) where you can read how Chertoff, Bush's Sec DHS, is refusing to do his job of border enforcement.

That's right: refusing.


TIME: Why Amnesty Makes Sense
A recent cover story in TIME suggested it is time for amnesty. I read the facile, vacuous arguments they proffered. I could see this one coming --> two weeks later, TIME'S Inbox was full --> letters broke 90%(!) for: "amnesty makes no sense-- we need to enforce existing laws." TIME,
not exactly considered the neanderthal conservatives' favorite fish wrapper, admitted it was, "the biggest mail getter."

When people like Vicente Fox's artful shill Juan Hernandez and Geraldo bray, "Most Americans want a path to citizenship for these good people, our good friends," they are simply proffering the big lie. I actually like it when unctuous "smilin' Juan" Hernandez comes on TV to tell us that ILLEGALS are good for us, and Geraldo says they are not only net benefits, but also LESS prone to crime than citizens. Those tall ones/canards are GUARANTEED to rally Middle America! Middle America has just spoken to Congress as well as to TIME.

Fully 72% (per Rasmussen) of us believe that it is a high priority to secure the border and enforce our laws, and less than 30% care much about a path to citizenship for ILLEGALS. Our immigration system is broken because Washington has willfully allowed it to break becuase they are controlled by business $ and the lure of latino votes. It is time that we turn out the miscreant pols and reject the chamber tripe about "we must have their labors."

Too many inside the beltway have made Faustian self-aggrandizing deals for votes/money/power that are antithetical to the best socio-economic interests of America. We MUST stop the ILLEGAL invasion or lose America. Last week, we took the first step. An advanced economy cannot allow the undereducated, poor, ethnocentric, culturally disparate to invade and permeate like a cancer-- it will eventually destroy the whole body.

reply to: BrianR
Chertoff was Presidente Jorge's revenge for having the Dept. of Homeland Security forced on him. But he went from being a necessary evil to being a positive good (historical allusion) in Jorge's reckoning. Chortle-off is a leftist... he clerked for Justice William Brennan, who is left of Teddy Homicide. He would be right at home in the ACLU.

Ergo, Chortoff LOVES ILLEGALS and thwarting mainstream America's best interests, so from Jorge's perspective he is the perfect shill for his globalist, open borders, NAU/SPP scamnesty goals. He is smarter than Jorge, so a more facile liar, but Middle America thankfully still sees him as an artful weasel.

Kudos
Great article, Dr. Sowell. Thanks for pointing out that not only did the majority of people win victory in denying this shamnesty, but also that Bush and some in Congress are trying to make it seem like they lost because we're stupid and racist. It's bad enough when Democrats play the race card, but when Bush plays it too, that's just pathetic. If only they would actually listen to the criticisms of their bill and start enforcing the laws on the books now. Build the wall. Build some credibility. Make the Z-visa temporary. Then maybe we'll believe that the government can actually handle this problem. Their answer: no, it has to be comprehensive; you have to pass everything in the bill or it all comes tumbling down and Teddy Kennedy yells "Jenga!" Give us a break. Fix the border, then maybe, just maybe, we'll be a little more at ease with letting people who don't respect our laws get another chance.

M. Cooper
There is truth to what you say.

The Mexican gov't and elites REFUSE to take of their own people; they are mostly of Spanish descent, while most Mexican illegals are the darker-skinned Indians whom the Spanish subjugated in centuries past. Among the illegals also are the restless and intractable Guatemalans whom the Mexican gov't relocated from their southern border, planting them just south of OUR southern border. Can you guess why?

We must take Mexico to task for its failures; but since they are a major oil exporter, I don't see that happening. Moreover, I can think of no American, potential leader with the cojones or the creative intelligence to do with Mexico what must be done, whatever that is?

Meanwhile, its our own business owners' greed that creates the demand for cheap labor in the first place.

Snakes in Mexico City, snakes in US agribusiness and other industries, and snakes in DC who REFUSE to enforce our laws -- all conspire to create this witches brew into which a willing and, oftener than we know, sinister illegal climbs.


Preach it
Many great points by Mr. Sowell and the above comentators: Build a wall (concrete, electronic, whatever), enforce current law, and tell presidente fox to set his own house in order instead of worrying about ours.

Speaking as an American who has done many of those jobs that Americans allegedly "just won't do" (mow lawns, serve as a janitor, repair gravestones), I commend Mr. Sowell (and fully agree with him) regarding his comment that it's not the jobs we don't like, it's the low pay. I know plenty of guys who'll dig ditches if they're getting twenty bucks an hour to do it.

Another good one Dr. Sowell
I learned a lot from this episode about the Republican Party. I already knew that Bush was a liberal, but I did not know that he was willing to virtually destroy the party to get his way. I knew that J. McCain was NOT a maverick but was also a liberal. I knew that his b*tt boy Graham would do anything he asked to be VP. What I didn’t know was that Graham was willing to sacrifice his own political career to further this Kennedy cr*p. The liberal rag here is dismissing the idea that Graham will have a challenger in the Primary next year. Of course it is way to early for this to peculate through the local deal-making. I am praying that he has a challenger because I will not vote for him. The Dems are saying they do not plan to float a challenger because they already have a Democrat in Graham.

http://www.thestate.com/169/story/106892.html

So what is liberal George’s latest? He has commuted Libby’s prison sentence. Another spit in the face of conservatives. I am now actually beginning to wonder if he truly was better than Gore or traitor Kerry. Bush only got my vote because he was the lesser of the evils.

Notice to the Republican Party. Those days are over. I will no longer vote for a liberal Republican regardless of the unsuitability of the Democrat candidate.

Vic
I've thought of doing that too, but trust me, it would have been worse with Gore or Kerry. We would have had a very liberal supreme court, higher taxes and still this same amnesty bill. With Gore we wouldn't have had the war, but our economy might be in the toilet due to insane pollution controls. With Kerry, Iraq would be a genocide like Darfur because he would have pulled out way too quickly.

To collin
The true colors of the Supreme Court will not be known for probably at least another term. These so called conservative judges have a habit of becoming liberals very quickly.

As for Iraq, if ultimatley we pull out and abandon Iraq without a stable government able to resist Iran, then we will have done more harm than good. If the Dems had been elected we would never have gone into Iraq. What would have happended is the sanctions would have collapsed and we would have pulled out our enforcement of the nofly zone. Saddam wold have gone back to his old ways, but at least less powerful than he was.

As it currently is, if we pull out now as the Dems and RINOs are pushing for, Iran will come in and rule Iraq.

BrianR
I agree. WHERE'S THE DANG FENCE?

Yes, Chertoff certainly appears to be refusing to do his job. I talked to both of my Senators office today about that very thing. They agreed, but acted like their hands were tied, or that they needed to pass additional legislation. BS!

Any suggestions with regard to what we can do about this? If the Executive Branch and their appointees are refusing to carry out the law, they need to be made to, or they need to be thrown OUT, in my opinion.

In the rural hinterland
of America, just because we "work" for a living ,they all thought that we are just stupid. The votes come from US! Not some tire floating illegal. Senator? We are watching, and you have to come home sometime to your neighbors. Can you explain your actions to your neighbors without being held in contempt?

I still say
BUILD THE FENCE & FIRE UP THE BUSES

Don't tell me it can't be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so what happened to the '86 version...
of the same bill?

"Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986"

http://www.oig.lsc.gov/legis/irca86.htm

Since it was obvious the government couldn't follow through on that bill what made the government elites think people would have faith in this newest addition to the scam?

BTW who cares what Chertoff a Clintonista thinks or says except for the fact that Bush let this SCUM have an important job?

Contradictory laws?
Linda Chavez, in her column of June 29th, stated:

“...the present laws can't be enforced, not because of lack of will but because the laws themselves are inadequate and contradictory.”

Does anyone know exactly what she's talking about here?





Sowell patting himself on the back
In my view he should pat himself on the back regarding his work on the Duke rape case.

However, in the immigration case, I 'd say the cost of dislocating his shoulder should outweigh any benefits gained by patting himself on the back.

Realities and ideas that he calls fraudulent are not fraudelent at all. Its not even a matter of opinion.

But I think Sowell's ego is just heavily invested and so dug in on this issue, and its causing silly things to come out of mouth.

Everyone, myself included ought to try to control their egoes.

"the people" Sowell's speaks of, of which I am one, are not nearly as anti-latin-american-here-in-the US-illegally, as Sowell would like to believe.

Hard to believe, but maybe...
...the legislature actually HEARD the voice of the people. As insensitive as their hearing aids may have been set, even the most haughty and elitist of the Congress could, apparently, faintly make out the roar of the the electorate and, wonder of wonders! They responded.

I am not at all sure it will continue as they, the Congress, always depend on time shutting up the easily sedated voters, but - for now - they stand indignant and neutralized. Perhaps, if only for a brief moment, they understood that they are there to serve at "the pleasure of the voters" ...

Nah. They will continue to usurp power soon enough. All we can do is stand ready to blow the trumpets again.

Cheers,

Ron Albright


http://www.ronalbright.com

Malign neglect
Dr. Sowell understands where the problem lies. "But no law is adequate if it is not enforced." The illegal alien (NOT 'immigration') problem festered since 1986 because no administration had been inclined to enorce the 1986 law.

You've probably heard of "benign neglect," nonchalance about enforcing obsolete and supposedly useless laws. What we've had is malign neglect, nonenforcement specifically in order to create a real or perceived crisis that can be used to push an otherwise unpopular policy agenda.

This elite class would have us believe we "can't" do anything about 12 million illegals, yet they would pull traffic stops to enforce seat belt laws. What if state & local jurisdictions that refused to cooperate in rounding up illegals faced sanctions similarly to those for failing to criminalize beer-drinking by young men old enough to be drafted?

Don't try to tell me "can't" when so many law enforcement resources are tied up enacting the nanny state. Don't try to convince me you need to monitor my every movement & transaction (e.g. "Real ID"), & treat me like cattle at the airport, in the name of preventing terrorist attacks, when you won't close the gaping barn door to the south!

Elites
Dear John Galt:

How clever of you to twist the words of Dr. Sowell to mean something he never said or even implied! Dr. Sowell is absolutely on target when he calls the SPONSORS of this disastrous bill elites! I am hard pressed to see where he said that everyone who disagreed with him were elitists. Even if he had said that, it would in no way invalidate the truth and the facts in his editorial. Your comment is shallow and meaningless.

Congress has lost touch
I don't believe they even begin to understand just how many of us are using the internet and listening to talk radio. We are informed far better than the pat on the head and "we know best" that has been their old standby for years. Now they don't know what to do, they want to start by muzzling talk radio, and forcing broadcasts by libs. They are ignoring the fact that they can't force us to listen to that drivel. Even trying to muzzle Rush, Shawn, Micheal Reagan, etc would not keep us off the internet, and keep us from reading columns like this.
Keep up the good work Dr. Sowell

Paris and Scooter
Mass.liberal, you just crack me up. As a "former" MA resident it seems to me that felons were given passes to re-commit every day. Gov. Patrick ran on second chances for child rapists, murderers and other random felons. Come on.....get a bit of perspective in your head and quit with the socialist talking points.

Oh, I refuse to use the word liberal or progressive to refer to the left....they are distortions of two very good historical political and social terms...from now on you are officially re-named massachusettssocialist.

Who's Hurt??
Since this whole illegal immigration scare has started, another words our elites telling us we'll self destruct if we don't have illegals to do the jobs Americans won't do, I've changed a few things. I no longer pay to have my Car washed, or my lawn mowed, I've even started grilling our own Hamburgers, instead of McDonalds or Burger King. We're actually doing more things as a family and enjoying it. So what if a few McDonalds close down? A few Car Washes close down? If they can't afford to pay a decent wage let them close. I feel America should come first, not the financial security of a few. The crops will still be harvested there are contractors who have legal agreements to use legal immigrants to do the work, if they can't get Americans. The price of tomatoes might go up a little, but so what? To save our country I feel it's worth it. It's time to stop worrying about Mexico's problems and worry about our own.

Laws enforced are real laws
The USA has plenty of laws on the books that would take care of the illigal immigration problem. Since they are not enforced, they haven't worked. If an ordinary citizen was a cavalier about obeying the law as our "representatives" are in enforcing them, the full weight of government enforcement would fall on that citizen, if only to prevent "anarchy". It isn't about the color of the immigrant (Please note Mr. Forrest), it's about demonstrating a desire to obey our laws; plenty of immigrants do so every day, and no one on this site has said keep out or deport all immigrants of color, which is a racist attitude. Racism is a straw man; it's about law. We need our representatives to enforce them, not add extra ones that won't be enforced either. And another modest proposal: pass no law that does not have an automatic "sunset" provision, in other words, goes out of effect at a predetermined point. At least then the "representatives" would have to re-visit and renew/let die laws that may have had unexpected results. It would be one way to get rid of bad laws and keep good ones. Plus it would eliminate some of the free time our representatives have that they appear to use to engage in nominative thinking.

Massa-two-chits Libster
MassachusettsLiberal writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 7:05 AM
"Paris and Scooter
It is clear from recent events that the elite will circumvent justice to protect their own.
Both Paris and Scooter received get-out-of-jail cards and did not serve their time as an average American would have in the same circumstances."
**************************************

Puh-leeze! How out of touch can you get!!!?

In the city of Los Angeles, the average convictee of the same crime as Miss Hilton serves about 3 days- exactly the amout of time that Paris served befor she was let out by the Sheriff's Department.

I think it is bogus that criminals don't serve their complete sentences, but the powers that be direct the Sheriff to release low-threat inmates due to over crowding of the cells.

I would prefer that they just let the cells be overcrowded. Isn't jail supposed to be punishment?

Miss Hilton was returned to prison, and ended up serving 5 times the time that a regular violator of her type would have.

GW (and Dr. Sowell) are right...
...the tired, fallacious argument that America will simply shut down and there will be disasterous prices increases in the food and service industry sectors is "horse feathers." I laugh at that - and the other arguments the elite intelligentsia would try to foist on our heads.

Illegal is illegal and, if we are not a nation of laws, then we are nothing. Just because someone speeding 90 mph down the highways "harms no one," the act does not grant permission for said driver (and others) to break the law. There are many laws that, when broken, do not necessarily have bad outcomes for the peace and safety of society. Presumably, they are laws for a reason for their potential to do harm or disturb the peace. Regardless, they are the law.

If an illegal immigrant goes about making his daily bread and harms no one, that does not - a priori - infer law has not been broken. If, by the consent of the people, a law allowing free and unfettered immigration goes on the books, then so be it. Until such time, I say ENFORCE THE LAW.

Cheers,

Ron Albright

Don't be fooled folks ---
the powers that be will have Amnesty one way or another. We need to clean out the whole rats nest. It's time to get representation that will actually represent us. It's time to get behind the "Guest Congress Program"!

http://kilroyreport.townhall.com/g/8b05fa6e-b938-4c9c-bb93-dc2b0f4ba2ad

Support your imported congressman!

More for the Libster of Massa-two-chits
Regarding Scooter Libby- he was convicted as the result of a witch-hunt.

There was NO CRIME COMMITTED!

The prosecutor already knew who had leaked the name of Valerie "Blondie" Plame, and could and gone after him. But of course, Armitage was not a Bush Croney, and therefore uninteresting to the vigilantes with Bush Derrangement Syndrome who were out for Bush blood.

And speaking of WITCH HUNTS, the witches are out in full force, whining about the commuting of Scooter's sentance. And of course, the witches are: Shrillary Clinton and Nancy P. Lousy, living up to their names of Shrill and Lousy.

Dr. Sowell
My e-mail to Dr. Sowell:

"Again and again, thank you for speaking "truth to power."

I have lost all respect for Bush for his refusal to acknowledge the burden he has allowed to be foisted on the hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding middle class. What possible good can come to this country by allowing this "invasion" to continue?

Why should anyone be law-abiding if breaking the law pays off so handsomely for illegals?

Once our social glue comes undone, the consequences will be terrible for everyone.

God bless our wonderful country and God bless you for doing all you can to protect it."

Hey, MassachusettsLiberal...
What do Scooter and Paris have to do with immigration?

I thought this column was about immigration.

Don't tread On Me
Well said. The nanny state has no problem with ever increasing roadblocks to catch DUI's or making "click it or ticket" a primary offense so the police can spend their time looking to see if prople have their seat belts on and ticketing them. Infuriating.

Yo
**************************************************************************************************
BUILD THE DOGGONED FENCE!
**************************************************************************************************

It's not rocket-science, folks.

massachusettes liberal
I know you left out bubba bill & i'm who the crowd wants me to be hiilary by mistake when
mentioning the get out of jail cards.

Glad to help

Mexican Reform
Milo, you are so right!

I have never heard Bush suggest publicly that Mexico had an obligation to reform it's laws and economics to allow its own people to prosper.

Why are the US church leaders wailing on about our need to allow this invasion? Why are our church leaders (that's you, Mahoney) not speaking up for the people they are supposed to serve? They are not living and serving in Mexico.

Where aren't they demanding social justice and reform in Mexico? Not one word is said about Carlos Slim who is the second-or-third richest man in the world due to his monopolies in Mexico.

Angry? You bet I am!!!


Two more things
I wonder how many millions of people have come to the United States just in the last 4 months in anticipation of the passage of some sort of 'amnesty' bill.

Second, I wonder what the country would be like in ten years, if we began issuing 'worker visas.' We'll have three types of people in the USA then; citizens, visitors, and the hired help. Good lord, what a terrible idea.

Nice Work, T. Sowell, but Elites?
Well done, but I'm still waiting for writers to get more detailed as to who and what are the "elites." That word is tossed about too many times for it not to be well understood. Elites are not all in politics and not all born of aristocrat families, so who are they, Dr. Sowell. Real names are better than obscure references.

Measure for measure
I for one resent having to present 2 legal proofs of citizenship to start a job when every illegal in the country has a dozen that are not checked. I resent my state's deparment of motor vehicles giving illegals driving licenses like candy. I cannot understand why a legal immigrant has to spend $3000 to get her paperwork squared away when all an illegal needs to do is get a new job.

As to the argument that we can't deport all the illegals. We really don't have to. We need to increase the risk of getting caught and sent back.

Here are some ideas on how to improve immigration:

(1) Cut off all federal funding to sanctuary cities. If their city councils and police won't participate in enforcement of the law then they shouldn't be allowed to suckle on the federal teat.

(2) Require that all illegals in jail or prison be deported immediately upon serving their sentences.

(3) Prosecute any illegal alien with a stolen, or invalid, social security number for identtity theft.

(5) Eliminate the requirement that employers check ID but require that employers pay minimum wage or prevailing for all workers. (This one removes the incentive to hire cheap workers).

(6) Figure out a simpler immigration process.

illegals
WQhat don't the libs get about illegals. This nonsense that having broken our laws to come here they will suddenly turn into lawful citizens. One simple test for assimilation would be for the end of bi-lingual education. In public places hispanics are not speaking english amongst themselves. I don't see any conspiracy but I do see a reluctance to adapt to the country they are living in. As was proven in iraq poorly educated people do not adapt readily to democracy. Likewise I am sure that those who forego educational opportunities will probably never become american citizens. If we are to believe they are coming in great numbers because of lack of economic opportunities in their countries of origins, that says more about the failures of those governments to provide for their own people. Sending their unwanted here relieves those countries of the burden of providing services for these poorly trained and poorly educated people and transfers that burden to americans. There is no doubt we have a productive society but are we wealthy enough to give away the social services to vast numbers who do not contribute to them. If the horror stories about the coming insolvancy of both the social security system and medicare can those systems absorb millions more who have not fully funded their entry into that largess. Congress can describe their amnesty bill bill in whatever light they chose but until they find a way to rally voting americans around sensible reform that includes border protection that works as well as some form of legal entry and the removal of illegals from some form of fast track amnesty the public will remain op[posed to this legislation. Americans understand legal immigration. Congress fails to grasp that and wants to seemingly reward those who broke the law as if fixing a broken system is too cumbersome. Can america allow the current 12,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals break our sytem of immigration and cause economic nightmares to social services system. We ignore the current system at our peril but there are enough sensible people to find a workable solution that will benefit our society. Rushing through flawed legislation with the many loopholes that congress would place upon any bill solves nothing except causes further problems down the road. But taking the first step of protecting the border would seem the logical first step and then start addressing the myriad of other problems that have been created from lax enforcement of our own laws concerning the illegal immigrant problem. Letting th likes of ted kennedy determine this legislation is a sure fire recipe for disaster

You can’t say that?
You can’t say that?

Do you think it is true that in many countries, citizens can have a candid dialogue about preserving national identity and we cannot? And if you Try this in our country, you’re labeled an exclusionary bigot?. Did the defeat of the immigration bill send a signal that we can have the dialogue in the U.S. without the name calling?

By Jonah Goldberg

USATODAY-Historians may well look back on last week’s defeat of the immigration bill as a watershed moment. It was, for good or ill, a milestone in America’s transformation into a “normal” country. Normal countries have arguments about their national identity and immigration’s effect on it. In normal countries, it’s not illegitimate to suggest that too many immigrants, or too many immigrants of a specific origin, may upset the social peace or do damage to the national culture. In America, however, to raise such concerns is to open yourself to charges of racism, bigotry, nativism and all-around hate.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/you-cant-say-that

Careful what we ask for
I agree with the sentiments that we need to build the fence, however Mexico is on the verge of a revolution which will most assuredly spill over to American soil. So before we close off the southern border we have the infrastructure in place to deal with millions of refugees not illegal immigrants. Think for a moment what will happen when (or if) we close the border.
Two of three major Mexican exports will be effectively cut off, illegal immigrants, narcotics and oil. Only the oil will get through, so the already shaky Mexican economy will be decimated.

speaking of get out of jail free cards
Here's another name that slipped the list:
Sandy Berger, he of the burgled top secret and now destroyed documents from the National Archive. Let's see: what's worse? A possibly mis-remembered conversation from years earlier, one which was allegedly possibly tangentially related to a non-crime? Or blatant thievery of government property? Gosh. So hard to decide. Speaking of thievery, how about all those priceless White House furnishings that 'accidentally' were removed on their way to Chappaqua and Georgetown, and the blantant vandalism ? Oh, piffle.

re: $$$$$$$$$
Well, since Dr. Sowell never actually delineated the difference between exactly which supporters of the bill are "elites" and which aren't, perhaps you can enlighten further on that point. However, that still doesn't change the essence of my question (however shallow and meaningless you might find it): At what point is it "elitist" to stand up for what one believes is right and good in the face of opposition, and at what point is it "principled" or "courageous"?

Next?
We still have a huge problem. Building a fence may deter many from illegal entry, but the overall problem of illegals in the U.S. will not be resolved until the reason they are here and are still coming (illegal employment) is taken care of. This will require enforcement and improvement of laws against employing illegals. The focus of continuing pressure on our government needs to be against employing or contracting services of illegals. It is too bad that so much of the opposition to the legislation just defeated was directed against Mexican illegals instead of against U.S. illegal employers. The flow of illegals will end and those already here will leave when it is clear that there is nothing here for them.

We should not give up on this problem. But I believe more will be accomplished by putting the pressure where it belongs - greedy illegal employment and greedy government panderers and enablers.

On Illegal Immigration, Take Mexico
and annex it.

Install a decent government and help their people understand the rule of law.

There is no way we should give amnesty to 12 million law breakers. If we do, we might as well say that the white collar crimes are "unenforceable" and give all executives amnesty ahead of time.

Makes as much sense.

BTW, Mexico did not curb illegal immigration during the early 1800's and in fact invited people to break the law and just come on in. Then there was the Texas Rebellion and an independent nation was born.

Want that to happen here?

Conservative Legislation
It is time for a Conservative bill.
1. Clear the backlog of pending immigration applications. Give the INS 3 years. Each year: 1/3 of the applications done. Otherwise, at the end of each year: terminations for senior execs at INS.
2. Find the missing. Clear the backlog of the missing persons who have not appeared for their trial dates. Same as #1. 1/3 each year, otherwise the senior DOJ people get pink slips.
3. Clear the passport backlog. Fire the current senior staff at State who are responsible for the backlog.
4. Arm the U S National Guard at the border. We are the subjects of an INVASION. Invasions are only repelled by force.
5. BUILD THE FENCE. Fire Chertoff. The Saudis can build a fence. The Israelis can build a fence. We can build fences on the sides of our interstates. But the only fence we can build with Mexico is on the wrong side of the border?
Can you say INCOMPETENT?

"Elite" is a fitting description
because it describes people who have power and hover above the consequences brought about by the decisions they make.

In this case, the "elites" in favor of amnesty do not live in the neighborhoods with bankrupt or overly burdened hospitals because of illegals. Their children do not attend schools whose budgets and resources are maxed out because of the influx of illegals. They do not live in the midst of rampant gang activity directly connected with MS13 or DDPs. They are are not the small contractor, landscaper, paver, etc... trying to compete with those who work for less (only to have the wages sent "home" while social services provide for basic needs here).

The "elites" in this context are using their positions of power to force an agenda tha makes them feel good while personally costing them nothing. They are also programmed like drones to call the rest of us "racists" because we can no longer carry the burden of their cheap virtue.

Illegals-Slave labor
Good job Mr. Sowell. But you usually are right on.

One thing that I haven't seen much comment on is the fact that business love illegals because, unlike American workers, illegals have no rights or protections. The illegals will do anything without complaint because they fear losing their job or being deported. It's a brand new class of slaves or indentured servants for the wealthy to exploit. The Dems of course love this. A whole new "nation" of people dependent on them for generations. I guess they have to make up for the black American vote that is slowly seeing them for what they are and migrating to the conservative side. Conservatives more closely reflect their christial values after all.

The other thing is, if these millions become legal workers here, eventually citizens, then the businesses will no longer find them desirable workers. The millions will be unemployed as a result of the next (or steady) wave of illegals crossing our open border. What happens to our new legal millions? Welfare of course. Crime to support their families as a worst case scenario.

I am hearing grumblings from the pro amnesty forces and now some are joining together to thwart the will of the American citizens. They are demanding that all deportation be stopped until we give them anmesty. What a crock. We can start with the criminal sector and those already scheduled to be deported. I'm not in a rush to deport the families that have been here a long time and working until we resolve our border security. I'm not cruel, I just want the flood stopped. Like others I am willing to look at citizenship for some, on a case by case basis only.

We are definately going to have to fight and get loud again if we expect any enforcement from this Administration or Congress. Chertoff has said he doesn't have the tools. Yeah, right.

Great posts guys. Happy Independence Day. It seems to shine brighter this year for me!


To HadEnough37
I saw one of those on Bill Oreilly last night arguing with Michell Malkin. It sounds to me like they are arguing for breaking the law. Is that not "conspiracy to commit a crime". A "conspiracy" is agreement between two or more natural persons to break the law at some time in the future.

Marion
"I don't believe they even begin to understand just how many of us are using the internet and listening to talk radio. "


Well obviously 100s of millions of people use the internet. More specifically the question would be how many people read townhall and comment on townhall. Im thinking that its mostly other townhall writers commenting on their fellow townhall writers,

I dont listen to tlak radio but I gather from waht I have read at townhall that it works similarly in that other talk radio hosts are the ones that listen to talk radio hosts.

Not unlike television media, it seems to be largely an echochamber filed with lots of hand shaking and back patting, and victory declaring,and ego stroking.

Changing course, I understand that Alan Keyes is interested in the WHite House.

http://www.alankeyes.com/

However maybe his name has come up and I have missed it, I only pay attention to THompson, Sowell, COulter and Charen, but there doesnt seem to much buzz about Alan Keyes at townhall.


I find that somewhat surprising,

I would like to see more ALAN KEYES on townhall, but thats jsut me.

ALsio its weird, I've read Sowell for about 8-9 years now and I dont think I have ever heard him mention Alan Keyes. Does Sowell like Keyes?


Of course,
Thomas Sowell is right. We don't need more legislation to obfuscate the Federal government's complete and abject failure to secure our borders. We need the President to issue and edict, by way of an Executive Order, demanding that the borders be secured by whatever means necessary - immediately. If he's too much of a weenie amid the fears that he may be labeled a "bigot" by our Hispanic brothers and sisters, he can lay the blame on the need for advanced security measure on the Islamic nutbergers in light of their repeated attempts and threats to car bomb Western civilization back to their favorite time, the 7th century. But do it. Do what should have been done before the sun set on the 11th of September 2001.

After that, and when there is incontrovertible evidence that the border is herewith "secure," then we can deal with the 12-20 million aliens already here. The border is the clear and present danger. The aliens have been here and growing since 1986 and can be dealt with in another year or two after the border is made tighter than Mobey Dick's blow whole.

One never re-carpets his floors until the leaks in the roof are fixed.

Simple Solution
All we have to do to solve the problem of illegal immigration from Mexico is to annex Mexico and make it the 51st state.

The Mexicans will get what they want, the ability to work in America, and as a side benefit they will not have to walk through the desert or send money home, as they will be able to stay right where they are and still be in America.

The Mexican government will get what it wants, an end to the problem it has created without ever having to live up to the task of building a better future for its people.

The employers will get all the workers they want, and the ability to hire and fire them without having to worry about visas, green cards, etc...

And the American government will get a much smaller border to worry about securing.


Votes
It's been said that many of the "yes" votes on the bill were catering to the "hispanic" vote. What happens when they lose the "caucasian" vote?

Offer a green card & $5/hr ..
.. to the first 250,000 able-bodied illegal aliens who 'volunteer' to build the fence.

We would have our fence in about 3mos.

Hard Thought
I agree we need to annex Mexico, dissolve the present governments (National and Provincial). I think it's the only way to solve our problems permanently. This of course would cost trillions of dollars to bring infrastructure and buildings up to U.S Building codes. But we will have plenty of labor to accomplish this task.

We the people.

I'm truly sorry, people...

Too many times, "we the people" just plain stink... and therefore both rightfully and tragically get what we deserve.

But this time... take a well deserved bow.

Applause. Standing o'. More applause.

Good Article Dr. Sowell
I live in Ky, and both Kentucky senators voted against the bill, however it was very difficult for McConnell considering all the pressure from the whitehouse. With some 20 billion dollars from U.S. companies and farmers going back to Mexico every year even for min. wage jobs, you can bet that any posibility of the loss of that prop for the Mexican ecomony was upmost on the minds of our government officals. The fact that the democrats want the hispanic vote, and the republicans are under pressure from Mexico, and large companies, pretty much spells KENNEDY/BUSH hand holding. What an odd couple. This time the will of the people was heard, but dont think its over. Write your congress, 1. Secure the border now, and up grade the border guards 2. build the fence 3. pass fed law against hiring illegals and give it teeth. 4. register & fine all illegals, deport any that have broken additional laws, (yes it can be done)5. Help those who are here for good reason, and can speak english to become legal citizens.

Let's do a test........
Everyone here that really wants the d*mned fence built, do as I have: send 100 dollars to the minuteman fence project.
https://secure.responseenterprises.com/mmfence/?a=847
Get everyone you know that supports securing our borders to do the same.
If the bought off government won't build the fence for some rediculously inflated price, then we'll build the fence ourselves, for a fraction of the cost.
You want to open your representatives eyes? Then the minutemen project needs one hundred million dollars in their budget, from everyday, ordinary American citizens who are FED UP with the current status quo.

Bring Brownie Back
Dump Chertoff.
Brownie knows how to keep people on their own turf.

Sorry
current and status quo are redundant.
Disaclaimer: all mis-spellink and rong punktooation are on purpose, for full effect. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

TeeHall
I think Dr. Sowell would identify an elite by his state of mind, his attitude, or his world view that you or I would recognize immediately as a Progressive, a Nanny Stater - or one who always looks to the government to do for people what the founders would say, the people can and should do for themselves. A progressive always looks to blame society first for the ills that an individual brings on himself through poor choices. Hence,the elitist will say that "those poor people coming here looking for work are just trying to better their lives," while ignoring completely the principle of the right of a nation to its sovereignty. Emotions and good feelings rule. Facts are avoided and likely discarded. Wealth or socio-economic condition don't in and of themselves make one an elitist or not.

Kuwull
From what I have seen of the minutemen, I feel it is compromised of some well intentioned well meaning people, but others associated with thr group, I find troublesome and I dont trust them.


but thats just me

So I woudl decline your invitiation

Securing the border
I do think that is a good idea however, as does Goerge W Bush and Fred THompson

John Galt
I agree with your point, but that is the nature of rhetoric, no?

The immigration bill wasn't defeated because of name calling, it was defeated due to its content. The majority that opposed it also championed a viable common sense alternative to the proposal. The people weren't against it for no reason, but for compelling reasons that were not being addressed. Refusing to address these reasons is hardly standing on principle.

The WOT isn't being waged because it's popular, it's being waged because the stakes were raised by the other side. People aren't happy with the WOT because we aren't being effective. But the people were behind getting into it; shouldn't we have the backbone to finish it? That is standing on principle.

The calls to withdraw without regard to the consequences hardly seems like a viable or desirable option. What viable alternatives are being proposed by those that want the WOT to end? Before we sacrifice our national credibility for another generation and leave another boodbath akin to the one in Southeast Asia in our wake, I want a better reason than a collective "Because it's too hard and taking too long" from a fickle electorate intent on ignoring the consequences.

I think that is the difference my dear friend. Rhetoric notwithstanding.

forrest
your two responses contradict each other.
Either it's a good idea, whether, or not, a few of the individuals involved in the project are "questionable," or it's not.
I'm not quite sure, since there is no evidence given, who would be a questionable person in question.
They (minumtemen) are very, very careful on who they will allow to be on-site, just to make sure those who would question their intentions cannot.
They are there to enforce the US laws the government refuses.

Ulsterscott has some great ideas.
Some of the best ideas yet to solve the problem. I would add one more. Put the Army and Air Force on the border with orders to close it completly by any means necessary. This is not a law enforcement problem,it is an invasion. (side issue: I will never vote for John McCain or John Kyl again)

Kuwull:
"your two responses contradict each other.
Either it's a good idea, whether, or not, a few of the individuals involved in the project are "questionable," or it's not.
I'm not quite sure, since there is no evidence given, who would be a questionable person in question.
They (minumtemen) are very, very careful on who they will allow to be on-site, just to make sure those who would question their intentions cannot.
They are there to enforce the US laws the government refuses."

1)Securing the border is a good idea.

2)I dont trust some elements I see within the minutmen project, to the point where I would not be interested in donating money to them.

I dont think these two ideas contradict each other.


Surely you would not press me
to name names.

Like Bartelby the Scrivner in Melvilles short story would say "I would prefer not to"

What is "Elite"?
Yes, I have a dictionary, but I am confused about the definition of "elite" as it is used in this and other townhall columns and posts. It seems to be a code word. I get the impression that "elite" means about the same thing as "uppity" but I'm willing to be taught. Let's consider how the word has been used as we try to figure out its meaning.

The other day on a townhall thread "elite" meant "a person who doesn't attend NASCAR rallies" since the word was being discussed in the context of being a NASCAR fan.

I see that sometimes it's Republicans and sometimes Democrats who are called "elite" so it can't be just a matter of political name-calling.

If we're talking about legislation or about governmental administration, "elite" refers to "employees of the state" as opposed to "employees of the private sector"---and that seems odd since traditionally anything private would be more elitist than anything public.

Used in discussions of homeschooling, "elite" seems to mean "a person with more education than the pupil's parents".

Immigration? It appears to mean "opposing mass deportation and arrest of immigrants".

Religion? I have heard the BBC comedy shows on PBS called "elitist"; during the past few years they have often been replaced with religious shows, which presumably are not elitist, although in other times "the princes of the Church" were definitely an elite.

Race? When Dr Sowell was a child, he definitely did not belong to an elite group but today he does, thanks to those who pushed through Civil Rights and Affirmative Action legislation that now is attacked as elitist, so it's hard to define the relationship nowadays among race, education, and accomplishment.

So I am here to learn: what does "elite" mean? And what word defines its opposite (populist? just plain folks?)? Or is "elite" like "pornography" of which someone famously said, "I can't say what it is but I know it when I see it"?

The People Spoke
This week we witnessed the American public expressing their opinion to a Senator who ready to shut down debate and pass an immigration reform bill that would have had a profound, lasting, irrevocable effect on this country. Few Senators had actually read the legislation.

The Senate and the Bush administration went behind closed doors and drafted a bill that would have increased the population by an unknown number, altered the demographics by an unknown quantity of Mexicans, Irish, Salvadorians and other illegals. Some proposed amendments were breath taking. Senator Obama wanted to eliminate background checks! Despite intense public interest in the issue, there were no public hearings.

The government cannot provide a firm number of new immigrants. 12 million and 20 million have both been mentioned. Before the Congress can make a reasoned decision on the size of the entitlement, they must first determine the scope of the problem. Of the number XX million immigrants, how many will be workers, spouses and children who will enter the public school system? What will the impact be on the public health system? What will happen to state and local law enforcement, fire services, welfare?

The most appalling part of this process was the pork dealing. Senators who were against the bill were taken aside and promised projects for their states if they voted for the bill. If you vote for a $YYY billion annual entitlement, we will give your state $ZZZ million of taxpayers' money for an unnecessary program.

I call both of my Senators to express my opinion. They understood what we said.

above typo
I meant to say

"... to a Senate that was ready... "

Forrest
You wrote: "the people" Sowell's speaks of, of which I am one, are not nearly as anti-latin-american-here-in-the US-illegally, as Sowell would like to believe."

Dr. Sowell never said any of that meat. You are just another who does not or will not understand the opposition to scamnesty. It is not about the nationality of the illegals (with the exception of possible Muslim terrorists), it is about not controlling our borders with a physical barrier, it is about people coming here illegally, draining our social services, getting Social Security without putting in, it is about jailing border agents who try to stop illegals, and it is about illegals stepping in front of all those who are trying to enter the country legally. Why must people like you always turn it into something about race? I don't want Canadians sneaking in here either. Wake up. The elites are trying to destroy your country man. Do you really think allowing millions of illegals to stay therefore inviting millions more in is a good thing that is in the national interest?

Good article on a difficult subject
We won this round, but, mark my words, THEY will be back.

Be ever vigilant and keep the fax and phone numbers and email of your people in Congress where you can find them, because we're just getting started on immigration, and, probably, some other issues.

Barry

sfasu
the mass. swimmer not only broke civil laws he also broke his wedding vow. Granted that sounds silly but taking an oath should mean something. I forgot he has also violated his senate oath. Should your oath to office include not encouraging these illegals to break our laws. Or is it the swimmer like other libs only obeys the laws he personally believes in and ignores those that inconvenience his lifestyle

bobbit
Your head seems to be awash in bad ideas and untruths,and frankly reading you gives me a headache. So Im just not interested in discssuing anything with you right now.
Sorry. maybe my mood will chnage in the future.


laughs at barry,
"they will be back"

ya think? thats come call

come-->some
Also, for me the national interest is of supreme importance however the interest of the kingdom of righteousness trumps even the national interest.

BUt thats just me.

0r it would have provoked action....
collin writes: it would have been worse with Gore or Kerry. We would have had a very liberal supreme court, higher taxes and still this same amnesty bill.
=========

I am not so sure. Massachusetts, where a moonbat Democrat was elected Governor in place of a RINO Romney designee, hasn't changed that much. And having moonbats in power may well provoke a move to the right, it would be ironic if taxes/fees go up less under Deval than under Romney...

And Kerry has a challenger in the primary.

It is easy to say that the bottom will fall out with the left, but it was BUSH that wanted to appoint Myers and Gonzalez to SCOTUS and it was a popular outcry that stopped that. The RINOs didn't challenge the Clinton appointees but I am not so sure they would be safe in doing that in the future.

The scary thing about all of this is
that the racists ARE out there, and are gaining momentum. There are a lot of working class white guys who are p****** and believe that they will have no possible opportunity for advancement. This, as you may recall, was what Hitler exploited for the Nazi movement, and it is something to be afraid of here.

We are on the cusp of a populist movement and only time will tell if it has the same dark aspects as the one of the prior century.

John Galt
You said: "However, the rhetoric employed in this debate distorted and misrepresented a lot of what the proponents of immigration were trying to do, or at least many of them."

OK, I'm game: what were the "the proponents of immigration were trying to do" that got so "distorted" by the the other side? Dr. Sowell made his case; now you can make yours.

annexing mexico
this could be a real winner. We could control the border.We could impliment the rule of law and crush the drug cartels. Pelosi and her smug crowd would have some new elitists to line up to their cause. You know the types, we're rich so the rules don't apply to us. The dims could have some new states to droll for another class of preferred victims. We would send the message to Hugo we are taking a serious look at cancelling his ticket. alas our govt doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to to this but it could be a real winner

thigh master
I slightly disagree. The hollyweird crown might think they are elitists but other than requiring a fawning public they don't want any real change. As you recall both clintons became favorites of the hollywood crowd from the get go. Two separate groups with no morals or ideals but so full of self love and the constant demand to be the center of attention that they were made for each other. The hollyweird crowds lacks substance but thought that by partying with the clintons they had become someone. Both the clintons and hollyweird are so full of themselves they don't need anything other than the usual crew of bootlickers and a**kissers to tell them daily they are wonderful and really, really loved

Reflections
Dr. Sowell – EXCELLENT as usual!

Townhallers – DON’T FORGET the people who tried to ram this down our throats! The RINO Hunt starts NOW!

Sowell = One of the Greats
This column is one of the best yet.

But we should also ask the would-be illegal invaders, "What is your future vision for Mexico? What about the Mexican Dream? "

Oh yeah, that would be to sneak into the U.S....

comment on a comment
re:

************************************************
Gabby writes:
It was impossible to get through to
Mel Martinez's office. The only way to do it was to tell the DEMOCRAT Senator from Florida (Bill Nelson) to tell Mel to back off the amnesty bill.

I hope the voters give Mel Martinez the boot in the next election. He doesn't represent Florida's interests or the interests of America and he is one big reason why the RNC is losing money.

FIRE HIM!

*****************************************

Did anybody miss how Carlos Gutierrez, Mel Martinez, Ken Salazar, and Roberto Menendez who are all rich hispanics were omnipresent together telling us what a good thing the reconquista would be for us, but nobody in the MM suggested that ethnocentric racism was in play? Throw in Vicente Fox shill "smilin' Juan" Hernandez and Geraldo for that matter, and myriad spokespersons for La Raza, LULAC, etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051502022.html

Gabby makes a good point-- Pan-Mexican Presidente Jorge helped make Martinez head of thE RNC (Rino Network for reConquista), but this is helping drive Republicans away from the current RINO Party.

This globalist, open borders, multicultural, bilingual, NAU/SPP, scamnesty (bring them out of the shadows with a path to citizenship) disingenuous drivel tripe is alienating Middle America. The ILLEGAL alien invasion and permeation will destroy America like a cancer destroying the host body UNLESS we radiate it at the source. We need to secure the border and enforce EXISTING laws.

Fully 72% consider this a HIGH priority (Rasmussen) while < 30% care much about a path to citizenship for the serial lawbreakers. It is NOT that "our immigration system is broken"-- au contraire, it is nonfeasance by our government which instead serves as a welcome mat south of the border. Presidente Jorge is the Quisling-In-Chief. We need to keep rattling their cages in Washington where cheap labor lobbying $ and latino votes direct their thinking against the best socio-economic interests of America. YOU can contact them easily right here-- bookmark it and give them a piece of your mind regularly-- in English!

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Some light reading where you can stay engaged to save America from the onslaught:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/immigration_bill_failure_proves_rasmussen_s_first_law_of_politics
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.grassfire.org/
http://www.newsmax.com/hottopics/Immigration!Borders.shtml
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm
http://www.grasstopsusa.com/
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchd74c
http://capwiz.com/usbc/index_frame.dbq?url=http://capwiz.com/usbc/home/
http://stopspp.com/stopspp/?page_id=11
http://vdare.com/misc/070607_economist.htm
http://www.upi.com/Zogby/UPI_Polls/2007/06/21/analysis_majority_oppose_immigration_bill/2755/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTUyZjY3NzExYjIxODU0NmVmYWE4MTAxNTZlOWJkNDk=

thigh master
marching in causes and having receptions don't solve problems. Feeling good about speaking out don't resolve. Princess Di was an example of those who talked about the injustices during the day but partied with her fellow elitists at night. The proof in the pudding so to speak is where the hoolyweird crowd is putting their money. They raise big sums for the dims I don't believe they raise any sums for the great unwashed they profess to support. Other than cutting her grass does babs really lose sleep over illegals picking lettuce and sleeping on the floor. I doubt it it, but she will revert to a groupie at the sight of bubba and open her check book for the dims

Elites
... in the sense indicated by Sowell's use of the term here, would be the people in senior positions in government, business, and the opinion industry who advocated this bill, but would have been insulated by their privilege from the social consequences of it.

They don't have to see their property values go down, their insurance rates go up, or their kids slowed down in school by unaccountable illegals. They don't have to live with the crime; it's not in their back yard. Sure, their taxes go to government programs that benefit illegals, but they don't have to stand in line behind illegals -- whose bills they're paying -- for emergency room treatment, or for certain kinds of work.

Start with the president, name everyone in the Senate who voted for cloture last week, and tick off the names of Wall Street Journalists and other pundits who favored the bill, and you'll have a good start on the "who."

"ulsterscott" has listed some excellent suggestions for curbing the inflow of illegals. I would add that the feds need to cut off funds to STATES in which cities have declared themselves to be sanctuaries for illegals. The statehouses and governors need to have their feet held to the fire. And I mean CUT OFF: immediately. Stop any activity of government that relies on federal revenue distribution. Bureaucrats not getting paid, highways not being repaired.

One note on "low wages Americans won't take." This is perfectly accurate, but the deduction drawn by too many people is invalid: that if we'd just get rid of the illegals, the same number of jobs would be available for wages Americans WILL take.

Won't happen. In some segments of the economy (like manufacturing), where illegals are a marginal convenience, businesses will be able to just employ Americans for legal wages. But in many -- possibly most -- others, the adjustment will be businesses going under, and a lot of what, today, is "economic activity" reverting to being done off the economy, like lawn-mowing and house cleaning.

Smaller farms and orchards either being sold to Big Ag, or dropping out of cultivation altogether. Home improvement contractors going out of business. Agriculture and some manufacturing being outsourced.

To pay higher wages to the same number of workers, you have to have consumers who will buy as much of your product at higher prices. The ultimate driver is what the consumer will pay. And somewhere between a few and a whole lot of consumers will be priced out of the market by legal labor, for various goods and services that today are sold through the business economy BECAUSE of ILlegal labor.

THIS IS NOT A TRAGEDY. Bring it on. We need to enforce our laws. Businesses that thrive by breaking them SHOULD go under. But enforcing our laws will not cause Americans to be hired, at higher wages, for the same number of jobs that illegals work today. Fewer American consumers can afford the products and services at the higher prices that would require. This is an economic reality that cannot be gotten around.

Very frankly, there is one law we could change, and have the biggest effect by far on the whole problem of illegal aliens: the minimum wage law. The minute we declare that Americans will not work for less than X, we get two results: 1) where consumer price tolerance will not support wage X, people will not be employed, and there is no economic activity that is either profitable or taxable; and 2) people who ARE willing to work for less than X will be in demand -- illegally.

Something to think about. Meanwhile Dr. Sowell has spoken pricelessly here:

"There is no inadequacy in our existing laws on border security that the new bill would have remedied. But no law is adequate if it is not enforced.

"Non-enforcement of existing laws by the federal government and active sabotage of these laws by state and local officials who forbid the police from reporting illegal aliens to the authorities suggest that existing laws could be effective -- if enforced."

Amen. Sowell is a national treasure.

thighmaster
btw I think the nutcase is lilley

These guys are sub-pathetic
kuwull suggests we should each send $100 to the minutemen fence project.

Here's another idea.

Let's all send voluntary donations to private contractors designated specifically to complete the fence. Then we demand income tax CREDITS (not deductions) for the amount we sent since this work has already been authorized by the Congress.

When the DC elites see we mean to build the fence with tax money whether they help or not they will have no choice but to finish the fence ASAP so they can get back to issuing "earmarks" for the benefit of their own districts and careers.

These elites who call us xenophobes and tell us tall tales of how much these illegal parasites are needed by the country are no different than Dan Rather insisting that the Bush Guard story is true even if the evidence is phony. They're no different than the Democrats in Congress merrily writing their tax increase legislation, blissfully and willfully unaware that the tax cuts have improved the economy, increased revenue, decreased the deficit, and brought in more money from the "rich", both in total dollars and by percentage, than ever before in our history.

Facts and results are irrelevant to these elites. Only their vanity matters to them.

thighmaster
maybe both lilly and lilley are one in the same. So many libs are mentally challenged it is hard to keep track without a scorecard.

the battle for the heart and mind of
Thomas Sowell rages on.

He should be highly flattered

THomas Sowell is one of those guys where
it boosts your confidence in you ability to reason, when he agrees with you

I'd say thats quite an accomplishment.

But Thomas Sowell certainly is human, for his is is not the voice of God, and Im sure he has been wrong before, and is fallable.

But overall I'd say he rocks!

Lilly the Lying Looney Lib is back
This ubiquitous pest keeps showing up on Town Hall despite the fact that she gets destroyed when ever she posts a comment. She’s obviously a masochist who loves looking like an idiot and being humiliated. She posts irrational rants which have neither logic, nor proof. Her comments to other posts are rarely to the point, and often contain half truths, distortions, total lies, or lies by omission. Her typical tactic is known as “Hit & Run”. She drops her BS bombs and leaves. One person refers to her as “The Sea Gull”: (She takes a dump and then flies away). Quite descriptive. LMAO. She never responds to criticism, as she has no ammunition with which to respond. So it’s a waste of time responding to her. My advice is to just ignore this idiot. Or to put it another way: Refuse to engage in a battle of wits with the mentally disarmed. Perhaps then she’ll eventually go away.

wildwest writes:
annexing mexico
this could be a real winner. We could control the border.

_____________

Not! Then the US would be in charge of enforcing Mexico's southern border and we know Mexico is way better at doing that. They don't have an PC issues to deal with. And they enforce their own borders quite nicely. Ironic isn't it?

This Administration would make a fiasco of that as well. We would be invaded by even worse sorts from the south of Mexico.

Nice try though. lol


hadenough37
you're right, far more headaches but a tantalizing challenge if done right. Besides with all that unemployed laber in mexico it would be easier to construct a wall at their southern end. I think the idea is tossed around merely as wishful thinking since our govt doesn't want to enforce our southern border

Chertoff on the fence
Read the full story here:

http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070702/NATION/107020071/1001

The opening para:

"Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff yesterday scolded senators for failing to pass an immigration bill with new border and interior enforcement tools, refused to commit to spending the $4.4 billion in border security President Bush said is needed, and said the onus is now on Congress to pass something."

He's REFUSING to do his job.



John Galt, you remind me....
of one of my favorite quotes by Ronald Reagan:

"It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so."

Here's one more that I saw on another forum:

"In my opinion the left (media included), and its leaders really need to experience the 'POP' (the sound made when the head is liberated from a certain body cavity)." Anon.

Not the 4th of Julio...
Nice to have a win for the red, white and blue. Let's not go to sleep again. Happy forth of JULY to Dr. Sowell as well as the rest of the anti-amnesty folks at both Townhall.com and the crusaders of conservative talk radio.
Next week it's back to work on stopping the 'Foulness Doctrine' in it's chicken s#$% tracks.

National Interest
Forrest

If we grant legal resident status the people here illegally, what would be the impact on our nation?

Let's make a very rough estimate of the cost. Assume there are 12 million illegal Mexican workers in this country. CIA fact book says Mexican women have an average of 2.4 children. 12 million workers plus their 12 million spouses will have about 28.8 million children. Total new immigrants = 52.8 million (a 19.4% population increase).

According to the DoE, the combined federal, state and local funds to educate a child in public schools is $9,136 per year. Add another $800 for English learner and $270 for lunch program and the students cost $10,206 per year. Family education costs would be about $24,494.

The jobs these new immigrants work are unlikely to provide health care and they will probably be unable to afford health insurance. They will be seen at municipal hospitals at no cost to the immigrant. The government will pay the bill. To account for this cost, I used the $6,000 annual premium that fund COBRA.

Other state and local services - police, fire, rescue, parks and roads - will also be adversely affected. As a wild guess, let's say $1,000 per family.

The total annual cost to the taxpayer for each family would be $31,494.

Assuming these workers are on the books, they will pay taxes and social security which partially offset these cost. How much would they contribute?

The DoC estimates that a non-high school graduate worker averages $23,400 annually (probably high). Social security & medicare would take $1,743 (@ 7.45%), AGI of $8,800 the feds would get $880 (@ 10%) and the state $178 @ 2%). Total family contribution = $2,801.

$31,494 - 2,801 = $25,892. Each of 12 million families cost taxpayers a net $25,892.

Annually, the taxpayer will pay $310,704,000.

This bill is not, IMHO, a good deal.


Thank You Dr Sowell
Fire Chertoffski, build the fence, then deal with the other 20 million illegals here. One at a time. Rebuild credibility in our government. Email the House Oversight Commitee members, and support Kilroy's guest congress program.

arco
"Forrest

If we grant legal resident status the people here illegally, what would be the impact on our nation?"

I think nothing, accept like paperwork legal illegal mumbo jumob type stuff

they are here now right?

theres plenty of room here ya know
I understand thta in some states there are like just acres and acres and acres of unsettled territory

also
IM thinking the 12-20 million human beings that I think are already here, would feel more confident in there daily lives. They wouldnt be afraid of raids and being deported, so Im thinking they would feel more relaxed and less stressed out,

now it may inspire
more people to sneak across the border, but IM thinking if I lived in Mexico, I would probably try to sneak in here too, so I cnat in good conscience begrudge someone for doing something that I would probably try to do.

It would be nice however
if somehow Mexico could be reformed so thta people living in Mexico would like it better.

I like when I hear talk about how Mexico can become a better country to live in, so thta people born there would be happy living there

your calculations
are completely absurd in every way, and I have just lost lots of respect for your judgement and ability to reason.

anecdotal evidence
I know some hispanic american people that own and run what would best be described as a bodega, and in the bodega I have seen among other things an American Flag a cross and images of Jesus Christ. I consider them amigos.

True Story

thighmaster
"Then you can't "in good conscience" begrudge border enforcement for arresting you and shipping you back either, right?"

well i suppose id have to evaluate that on a case by case basis rather then making a sweeping generalization.

If i were in the shoes of a mexican looking to come to the US illegally, i think I might to try to
"cut a deal" so to speak with the border agent.

Can't we just build the fence ourselves?
Wouldn't it be great if...

A bunch of us started an organization to build a fence all over the border to keep out illegal immigrants? We would use our own money, contributed to us by individuals and various organizations, basically whoever supports such an idea.

And of course the government would try to stop us, but what can they do if we have a huge organization doing it? We'd pay for it ourselves, build it better I'm sure, and have the support of many in the country. If they tried to stop us we could more than likely use the press against them and get support (I know, I know...most of the press is liberal...but we'd figure something out).

I'm only dreaming of course...but it's sometimes relaxing to play "Wouldn't it be great if...". Especially when it involves solving the problems ourselves.

Empathy
I think its important when evaluating a probelm to try to consider lots of differnt points of view

The Cost, Forrest, The Cost.
Forrest,

If we take these costs and pro rate them over our population, every man, woman and child would pay $1,035 per year to subsidize people who have broken the law to come here.

A lady on a blog said yesterday, "Illegal immigration is similar to an overflowing bath tub. Before you get the bucket and mop, you should turn off the faucet."

1. Build the fence and man it with agents.

2. Do a head count to get the real number

3. Round up illegals and deport them.

I have little sympathy for employers who hire illegals to enhance their bottom line at tax payers' expense. If orange juice labor costs $1 with illegal laborers doing the picking, hire Americans at $2 and avoid the taxes, direct and indirect.

nonsense arco nonsense
nonsense arco nonsense

employers who hire illegals
it seems to me an example of free market capitalism

Your Numbers
Forrest:

If you think the rough estimate is "absurd" please tell us what you think the costs are and will be.

I have lived in Central America myself and have many Latino friends, but that is beside the point.

We cannot allow everyone on earth to come to the United States, so we, like every other country, have immigration laws. We need to enforce those laws rather than saddling the US taxpayer with a tax increase equal to half of a war time defense appropriation.


whcih is not to say
that free market capitalism is a bad thing,

but it has some flaws in and of itself without MORALITY with people in the system SEEKING FIRST THE KINGDOM OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Without morality the free market system breaks down like ethanol when its transported long distances or so I hear

illegals
essentially my attitude is F*** them all. This scum has broken our laws and like parasites want to suck away our national wealth by stealing social services they don't contribute too but act as though we owe it to them. Providing aid and comfort to these lawbreakers is not humanitarian it is closer to national suicide. Why do hard working americans who have contributed to making a better society be expected to give away the benefits they earned to those who lack total respect for the laws of our society. Fixing the illegal problem and allowing lawful legals is the direction we should be heading for. So illegals come from countries where they recieve horrible treatment from their own govts, Tough, that is not our problem and nor is our duty to bail out these failed govts by accepting the trash citizens who don't contribute to the societies they come from. Poorly trained and poorly educated peoples are not the answer to a labor shortage. We shouldn't be looking at lettuce pickers, lawn cutters and fast food workers as the way to maintain our technological advanced society

Im not following you thigh
would you mind trying to be more clear?

you are not making sense to me,

thigh
what was in question was whether or not I would begrudge and agent for rounding up and deporting an illegal human being.


One case that immediately asprings to mind is if for example the guy pleaded to me that he had a child in AMerica living with his uncle, and the guy wanted to be reunited with his child.

in that particualr case I would in good conscience begrudge the border agent that sent the father back

defeintely!

assuming the guys story was true
and I understand that there are many cases like that.

thigh im done talknig to you
yeah too many big words thats it, you are a sharp one

Has anyone noticed
the illegals are planning a march in Washington DC July 17th?

Their leaders are demanding a referendum putting an end to ICE raids, and deportations. They are saying they will bring down this economy.

This is just a tip of the iceburg to their plans. They want our country, and they aren't through with the fight. Our DHS is saying and doing nothing. We still have a big fight coming with these illegals. Get ready!!

thighmaster
libs pick and choose what laws they will obey everyday. Their messiah for selective following the law is the swimmer ted. Bubba again showed how libs honor the law. The list is essentially endless but your get my drift

Immigration
Fine the employers. That will get rid of a large portion of the 12 million. Of course, I'm betting the number is closer to 20 million.

breaking my word
I hate that, oh well sometimes ya gotta break your word

SO um thigh

"You can't pick and choose which laws you are going to obey"

sure I can, that doesnt mean I would, but sure I can.

Should I find a law to be in drect violation of the will of God and the kingdom of righteousness, I would have a moral a obligation to be civilly disobedient to say the least.

Anchor Babies
If non-US citizens have a child born in the USA, that child has dual citizenship - US and the nation of his parents. Upon reaching maturity, the child may choose. The parents, however, are not automatically US residents or US citizens.

If you are concerned with reuniting the family, apply for a visa and enter legally, apply to immigrate to the US or take the child to the parents' country.


Nanna, that's too funny for words!
The illegals are planning a march on DC? The home of the Fed Gov and ICE?

Sounds like a WONDERFUL opportunity to round 'em up by the busload and start them on their journeys home!


And they want a referendum? Did they bother to cite which provision of the Constitution permits a referendum? I don't see it in my copy anywhere.

Onviously, they must think they're still in whatever Banana Republics they originally came from.

Get out the Black Helicopters with the big nets!



Your Cost Analysis?
Forrest:

How many illegals are here?

What is their impact on the US economy?

What is this going to cost the taxpayer? the consumer?

Enlighten us.

legs to stand on
oh wow, I got like the greatest legs one can possibly hope to stand on, God Almighty!!

Arco
Go to the Heritage Foundation website. The data's there.

No need for fence to close the border
A fence, or even a wall, is worthless (ask the Chinese) if one only has to bribe the guard at the gate.

We could effectly shut down the border within 48 hours by announcing that anyone approaching our southern border who does not turn around and go back will be shot. A shoot-to-kill order is far cheaper and safer for would-be border jumpers. After the first dozen or so have been stopped by lethal force (I suppose we could aim for the coyotes first), Mexicans will get the message and stop trying.

As for what to do with the 12 million? here now? We are catching and turning back about 3000 illegals a day now. Thats about 1 million a year. The problem is that without a fence 6000 a day are entering and we are only catching half. If we shut down the border, then it would take 12 years to send them back.

We could even offer a early bird special, and pay for a bus ticket to the Mexican city of their choice for free if they surrender voluntarily. If we catch them, then we repatriate them in the Yucatan 2000 miles from our border, not in Tiajuana where they just turn around and try again the same night.

Rhetorical Questions:
SWe share an even larger mostly unguarded border with Canada. Why are we not also plagued with 12 million illegal Canadians?

arco
let me preface this by saying I dont want to create the impression thta you have earned my resepct, even the slightest.


As to your first qestion

I dont know, I am curious though, ive benn going by townhall and they say 12-20 million, but i think i once heard there are 24 million here.
Its a good question

as to your second question, thats a stupid question, that only na idiot would try to answer

and ditto for question 3.




Brian R
Great idea.!

Michelle Malkin had this report on her website. then last night she was subbing for O'Reilly, on Fox. she had some ding dong lawyer there that is fighting for the illegals. He was saying that there is no law to back up the ICE raids and deportations. Michelle shut him up with the facts, and told him to stop calling the failed immigration bill "comprehensive". bless her heart, he didn't shut her up.

Yep, the fight is still on!!

unlike the guy that made a film that
Castro didnt like, that Fred Thompson alluded to in his classic clip adressing Michael Moore, I stay far away from mental hospitals and most drug other than the occasional tylenol or centrum.

Hmm I wonder if there will be any impact on tylenol and centrum sales now.

Maybe I should rephrase, I odnt really use them that much at all, I dont necearily want to help or hurt Tylenol or Centrum, in no particular order.

How About Trying Reciprocity?
Has anyone hit the Mexican Consulate web-site and determine what it takes for an American to emmigrate to Mexico and become a Mexican citizen? We should apply the same standards here.

Apparently, Mexico is only accepting professionals (e.g. doctors), business executives and established artists. Oh, they don't require you to pay a $6000 fine, but you do have to have at least 50,000 times the average daily wage in Mexico City to deposit in a Mexican bank or invested in a Mexican owned business. We should apply the same rules here.

Illegal Immigration
is first and foremost illegal.

Let's take the rape laws and grant amnesty to all rapists, the laws are "unenforceable" and "capricious". In fact, when somebody rapes someone else, isn't that just a cry for help in resolving their inability to interact with the other sex?
(sarc off)
We need to get rid of the concept of anchor babies and deport the kids with the parents. We need to close the loophole in the immigration law that requires an employer to certify that there are no qualified Americans available to do the job before issuing a work permit.

We need to enforce the laws on the books, stop sending federal monies to cities that won't enforce the immigration laws, require proof of citizenship before getting any federal services, health care or school attendance and stop giving away our tax dollars to illegals.

BTW, you can find sympathy in the dictionary, somewhere between sh&T and syphillis.

Chertoff
One of the excuses I kept hearing during the "debate" (more like a lecture) was that the current law was just unenforcable. But one comment from Chertoff, the j*ckoff, was that if this new law wasn't passed then he would have to go after the law breakers and businesses that hire them, and then we would have to see families torn apart and all that blah blah blah. So, which is it? We can't enforce or we won't enforce tha law?

This whole mess makes the idea of term limits sound more and more appealing.

One last thing, here in AZ the legislature passed and our lib Dem govenor sign a law forcing business to not knowningly hire illegals. Business will have to at a minimum use the Federal Pilot program to screen employees. Of course the open borders crowd and the chamber of commerce thinks the world is going to end. To bad.

One last, last thing...

WHERE'S THE FENCE??????

arco 1:29: Saddleing the U.S. taxpayer
what an absolute joke

you should be ashamed of youself.


The governemnt can cut taxes and increase revenue with the stroke of a pen.

as if the problem of high taxes is caused by illegal immigrants.


your stupidity and dishonesty and diingenuoesness make me physically ill.

Heritage Foundation
Their analysis is a bit different. The end result is the same. It is far too expensive to the taxpayer.

Numbers, Forrest
Please answer my question or retract your comment.

You said my numbers were "absurd". Compared to what? Why should I be ashamed of myself? All I did was try to inject some logic and reason into this discussion. Our taxes are low right now, hence the economic boom.

You said, "your stupidity and dishonesty and diingenuoesness [sic] make me physically ill." At least I'm having some positive effect.

Liberty Dave
It can be GREAT
The organization (MINUTEMEN)are already building
A fence, at A less cost than the goverment could.
Check them out,and put your $ where your keyboard
is.Buy a ft.of fence,I did over A year ago,I may
go down and visit it someday.

MARIE
Wow, thanks for the information MARIE. I didn't know that you could do that. I've heard of the Minutemen and have read about them. I must have not read enough though.

Cheers!

Conflicted Politics
Both political parties are struggling to support and oppose this comprehensive immigration reform bill.

The democrats see a new underclass beholden to them and their socialist big-government programs. Unfortunately, the labor unions are not excited about an influx of cheap labor. Also, Latinos are predominantly Roman Catholic and may not support their liberal agenda - abortion od demand and gay marriage.

Republicans, too want to support it and not at the same time. They like the idea of cheap labor to keep inflation under control and the business community profitable. The down side is that the border looks a law & order failure and amnesty would create a large new governmental entitlement program in the $100s of billions annually.

Low wages
Dr. Sowell,
The phrase "taking low wages that Americans won't take" is loaded.
Why are politicians so willing to raise taxes on rich industrialists? Because they know that taxes won't hurt them; they will just raise their prices like they would for any other cost of doing business and the politicians still get their money for buying votes. However, if they have to pay higher wages, the bureaucrats do not get their cut and the wages stay in the hands of the workers.
It is time for the industrialists to stop paying lobbyists for tax breaks and to start demanding lower taxes across the board.
VOTE FOR THE FAIR TAX AMENDMENT!

Low wages
Dr. Sowell,
The phrase "taking low wages that Americans won't take" is loaded.
Why are politicians so willing to raise taxes on rich industrialists? Because they know that taxes won't hurt them; they will just raise their prices like they would for any other cost of doing business and the politicians still get their money for buying votes. However, if they have to pay higher wages, the bureaucrats do not get their cut and the wages stay in the hands of the workers.
It is time for the industrialists to stop paying lobbyists for tax breaks and to start demanding lower taxes across the board.
VOTE FOR THE FAIR TAX AMENDMENT!

ThighMaster:
Forrest is a troll bound on disrupting intelligent discussion of a very serious issue facing this country.

Some say that Social Security is the third rail of American politics. I think it's amnesty. Personally, I want us to solve this problem based on a rational approach. We need to have some real data and an open discussion about immigration.

We need a fence and border enforcement now.


To Thighmaster Re: forrest's gender
FYI, When the sex of a person is unknown, it is acceptable to use the male pronoun "He". "He/She" may be appropriate in a case of a transgendered person or someone with a diagnosed case of multiple personality disorder where at least one of them is the opposite sex of the patient.

The female pronoun is acceptable when referring to objects when you wish to assign human characteristics (i.e. She was a fine ship)

Businesses love illegals because:
Why export low-skilled jobs to Mexico or some other third world nation where you have to pay off the military, the politicians, the local police, inspectors, construction companies, etc, and build an expensive new factory, when you can just fill your current factory with low wage and low skilled immigrants? They're not exporting the jobs, they're importing the workers.

As for taking jobs americans dont want, I worked my way through college taking those jobs, cutting lawns and trimming bushes in the summer, and painting windows or cleaning gutters, and even worked as a dish-machine operator in a hospital. None of those jobs are available to my son, and so student loans become the only other option.

Forrest
You wrote: "Your head seems to be awash in bad ideas and untruths,and frankly reading you gives me a headache. So Im just not interested in discssuing anything with you right now.
Sorry. maybe my mood will chnage in the future."

Oh so you're a chick. Sorry I hurt your pretty little head ma'am. I know how reading posts from people who disagree with you can give one a headache. That must be why most of your posts inane and irrelevant to the thread.

One of America's true gifts
Thomas Sowell is a true Gem upon the National Landscape. One has only to read his fine works to realize what he brings to the table. Silly posts knocking him are at best ridiculous,if not down right stupid. Right on Dr. Sowell, and anyone reading your body on work knows who the "elites are" and that the last thing you would ever do is pat yourself on the back.

oldsocialworker
Hooray!! for you:


oldsocialworker writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 8:48 AM

"'Elite' is a fitting description
because it describes people who have power and hover above the consequences brought about by the decisions they make.

In this case, the "elites" in favor of amnesty do not live in the neighborhoods with bankrupt or overly burdened hospitals because of illegals. Their children do not attend schools whose budgets and resources are maxed out because of the influx of illegals. They do not live in the midst of rampant gang activity directly connected with MS13 or DDPs. They are are not the small contractor, landscaper, paver, etc... trying to compete with those who work for less (only to have the wages sent "home" while social services provide for basic needs here).

The "elites" in this context are using their positions of power to force an agenda tha makes them feel good while personally costing them nothing. They are also programmed like drones to call the rest of us "racists" because we can no longer carry the burden of their cheap virtue. "

Where did you learn to write like that?

Your comments are keepers; I've saved them to my Word file on immigration.

Well done. I copied here your entire post, hoping that THers who haven't the time to scroll down through all the posts will get to read it.

Time for a Writ of Mandamus
One of the earlier posters, Liberty, asked what we could do to force Chertoff to do his job since he has announced that he cannot (read will not) enforce the laws already on the books. A Writ of Mandamus is designed to have a court order a public official to carry out his duties. Sounds like we need one now. Anyone game? I don't have the money or the time. Any law firms out there interested in doing this pro bono?

Also, I agree, Build the Fence and beef up the Border Patrol. (I moved out of New Mexico due to crime coming across the border and the liberal state Supreme Court that was making it harder and harder to search drug dealers.)

"Randy"y
I'm in Arizona (40 miles from the border) and want to leave.

Where did you move to?

Build the Fence!
Around Washington D.C.!

to mike in Tucson
About the Fairness Doctrine:

Go to http://newsbusters.org/node/13777

for an update on Rep. Mike Pence's upcoming legislation, The Broadcaster Freedom Act, that would remove power from the FCC to impose "equal time" on radio stations.

Forrest 3
Can you please use your spellchecker for future posts? I get a headache trying to read your drivel. Thank you.

While we are at it
Lets start pressuring Congress (the House specifically) to stop the Federal borrowing (and thus balance the Federal budget) and start reducing Federal spending and decreasing the Federal debt. And address the house-of-cards financing of the entitlement programs.

Else it won't matter how many illegal immigrants we have. We will all be dragged down into the economic gutter.

A comment on Forest
This country was built on "the rule of law, not of men". What forest is advocating is the rule of men. That is, each individual border agent gets to decide who comes in and who doesn't. That leads to the kind of corruption they already have in Mexico where bribery of state officials is a way of life. The fact that Forest is an American citizen (just guessing here, he could be an illegal) who is proud to announce that he has no regard for the rule of law truly saddens me. Then I get mad and want to kick his butt outta here too! Illegals are ILLEGAL. What is the big question here? They broke the law, and they are breaking more as they stay here stealing our identities and our social serices. It really burns me up that I have to pay monthly for a credit monitoring service and a yearly premium to a company that promises to fix your credit if an illegal steals your SSN and trashes your credit. I figure it's only a matter of time before the document forgers hit on my particular combo of numbers. I say, why wait? Deport the illegals now. Return to the rule of law.

Darcy
As I understand it, Rep Pences' legislation did not pass. A bill he proposed will kill it until the end of 2008 is all. But they wouldn't pass the legislation that would kill it altogether. This is a shame!!

Illegals
It would help if all the states rebelled, and signed their own laws in that stopped all this stuff. Let the government know they don't need them. They are soverign states, and can make it illegal to hire illegals, or to give them state welfare, or use of hospitals, except in case of emergency. If the states would do this, the illegals would leave.

The Flash
Why do you think business loves illegal immigrants? Because they sneak into the US, work at low wages and no benefits, often pay no taxes and cannot complain about poor working conditions. As many as 25 men will rent a 3 bedroom house or apartment, live on beans and rice, work for almost nothing and wire nearly all their money home. If this bill passes, all that will change.

The newly legalized immigrant will be able to move his wife and children into this country. To support his family in the US, he will need to make a lot more more money. If border enforcement reduces the number of illegals, this cheap labor pool will vanish. Employers will be forced to pay more, raise prices or cut margins. Taxes to support them will also increase.

The idea of placing the burden of enforcement on employers is unfair. Business should be punished for knowingly hiring illegals, but the government has obligations at every levels. The federal government has the Constitutional duty to provide for national defense. States should not refuse to ask about citizenship when arresting or interviewing. Local communities should be prohibited from establishing sanctuary zones.

If any of you (other than forrest) think I am being unreasonable, please tell me why. I'm a little too emotional about what the Senate tried to pull last week and I'm glad it blew up in their face.

Take it Down! Remove the Fence
from around the White House. Since I keep hearing that fences don't work, this simple test should confirm or deny the assertion. If fences don't work, why not take them down. Since one test isn't enough, I propose we take down the fence around Chertof's home for the second test, just to be sure.

ThighMaster & Bman
I think it important to remember that GWB did not issue a pardon, although I believe he should have. What he did was commute the 30 month prison sentence, which is nothing more than a reprieve.

Article II, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution gives the president "Power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." A reprieve reduces the severity of a punishment without removing the guilt of the person reprieved. A pardon removes both punishment and guilt.

GWB is too much of a p_ssy to stand up to the MSM and liberal cry babies to issue a full pardon. Sadly, he still thinks he can play nice-nice and they will want to be his friend.

On the other side of the political spectrum though, ol' WJC, who never met a female he wouldn't drop trou' for, was never bashful about issuing full pardons for criminals that were either convicted or had even pled guilty.

I ran across this yesterday while reading a link that someone had posted on another TH column.

John Deutch: Deutch was serving as CIA director the night TWA Flight 800 went down. Several months later, in a scandal that foreshadowed Berger's own, Deutch was discovered to have loaded classified documents onto his personal computer and taken them home. His motives were never made clear. He eventually signed a plea agreement and agreed to pay a $5,000 fine only to be pardoned the next day by President Clinton.

I know that Mr. MassachusettsLiberal has already taken his dump and moved on, but he should take of his blinders and accept that for every questionable deed committed by the Republicans there are two or more from the party of the Dimocrats. (Spelling intended).

GWB finally grows enough hair on his sorry a$$ to commute Libby's sentence, one of the more hnorable things he has done as president, and the libtits scream foul. So, let's look at how that compares to Mr. Hormone?

Bill Clinton granted 395 pardons during his presidency, with 140 of those issued on his final day in office. Many were highly questionable.

The Office of Pardon Attorney, established in the Justice Department in 1981, assists the president in the exercise of the pardon power. The office's role in the Clinton pardons is discussed in the February 14, 2001 testimony of Pardon Attorney Roger Adams before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Adams notes that the Clinton White House did not consult his office in Marc Rich's pardon or in other controversial final day pardons.

Where is the outrage MassachusettsLiberal? Anyone of you other lib trolls wish to defend the extreme differences here?


ILLEGAL AMNESTY 2007 FIASCO
The US Senate used every trick at its disposal to ramrod the ILLEGAL AMNESTY bill S1348/S1639 through senate passage before the public could discover the bill's contents.

The senators should be endlessly exposed by all of the media for their traitorous actions on such an important piece of legislation. Of course, they will not.

Thanks to today's Internet with all of its bloggers, email, and editorial availability, this terrible bill was defeated. Too bad that the Internet and talk radio were not available back in 1986. That bill most likely also would have been defeated and we wouldn't have the Illegals' mess that we have today.

Congress must recognize that they are operating in a different and exposed environment today. They better get used to it. Unfortunately, I'll bet that they will find ways to circumvent this also.

We need a law that requires that every congressional bill, including all amendments and earmarks, be posted on the Internet for at least 120 consecutive hours before it can become law.
This would give all citizens a chance to review and comment.

We also require a law that every Senator and Representative must post his official email address on a government web site. It must be easy for any US taxpayers to contact any of the members of Congress. Their votes affect all of us, and not only their constituents.

Heres my post from another blog
I think it kinda fits here.

I think from reading here a lot of you have been fooled. I wish I still had the link to the story that someone posted on a previous blog here. The story was that an insider on the hill blew the whistle that they had come up with a plan to allow Senators to save face. The plan was to allow them to change their vote on cloture and get it to the floor. Then if they could get enough to get it passed, no problem. However, if, they continued to get so much resistance from the American people they could then change their vote and kill it on the floor fooling their constituants into believing that they were helping them kill Scamnesty. My two Senator here in NM voted as such...Yea, Nay..Then after this plan...Yea, Nay. In a Border state that has an unbelievable problem with illegals what does that show you? It shows that they have no desire to stem the flow and secure America. Also it shows that they will do anything to stay among the elites and their special interest groups getting rich while they bankrupt us all. This is all smoke and mirrors and any Senator's who voted in this way should not be re-elected. I wish I knew if there was a reacll for this state.

The government is very angry about talk radio because it bit them in the a##. The immigration reform was a smoke screen for the NAU, SPP which in reality opened the borders, sold out America and allowed for the RFID chipping so that all citizens could be tracked and controlled by the government. If you dont believe that go to Youtube.com and see some of the RFID vids that are from the companies that are actually making them and showing all their uses. There already chipping people in Scottland for easy pay options. But I digress, the government wants to kill talk radio for one reason and one reason only...They don't want people pointing out the truth and throwing a wrench into their system to make a one world government and completely have us in their control. They then would censor the internet along with taking all of our guns away and effectivly making this country..and all the world one police state. Don't you find it intersting that the President and Vice-President are not only stating they are above the Executive branch, but that they are taking measures to make it so. And if not challenged and changed the next President will have uncontrolled powers and God forbid that would be HillBillary. Then this country would be Socialists and effectivly sold out with scamnesty.

They refuse to inforce the laws currently in effect since that does not help them bring in the NAU, SPP and one world government. The old addage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," could apply here. They have never tried to enforce it and start the attrition back to Mexico, so how can they know it don't work as they try to claim. I mean, if you were to make a car that was susposed to be the best and most efficient in the world and then never tested it, can you then say it doesnt work lets fix it by building another? No! But the elites and their special interest groups would have you believe that.

And another thing. They say we cant possibly get rid of all the illegals in this country. I disagree! Maybe not all but most of them we could and I can tell you how. If the government has trouble finding criminals that are on their most wanted list, what do they do? We'll they help fund shows like, "Americas Most Wanted." They can't do their job effectivly and they turn to the American people. And what happens? Usually sonner than later the criminal that was profiled is caught. So here is my suggestion. Have a show called, "America's Least Wanted," that calls for the help of the public in tracking down all of the illegals hiding in the shadows in America. Offer a monitary reward to legal citizens for the capture and deportation of these illegals and each week feature the biggest and most intense immigrant busts and show the results...i.e. deportation, release per status. I guarentee when they do that and offer rewards they will not be able to keep up with the amount of calls they would get. And that would be good too cause then they would have to make it a local law issue to so they would have to help get these people deported instead of it just being a Federal issue. Also they need to show the children being deported with the parents..The children who's parents can't prove one of the parents was a U.S. citizen. The 14th Ammendment allows for anchor babies if one parent was legal. This would help get rid of, not only all the illegals but of the almost 3.6 miiilon illegal children here in this country. It would be hard to see kids suffer but the Bible does state that the sin's of the father will be visted on the child for so many generations. Why reward children who have no right to be called anchor babies, when their parents broke the laws? I feel for them, but their not citizens!

Lastly, we need to find out how, or what group is doing a grass roots to light a fire under the a## of congress and the President and the DHS to start enforcing the laws we alread have and provide the funding for the fence that was passed. We need to also light a fire under the a## of the state governments to start helping by, cutting off all benifits..i.e..welfare, free lunches, assistance payments, housing assistance, free medical and other programs that make them want to stay. Start fining and raiding the companies that are hiring illegals, crack down on landlords that allow illegals to rent (and even if one is legal, turn them in for harboring criminals if illegals reside there too). This is the only way to effectvly start to control the issues if we want to help control and limit the elites who think they can sell our country out and make us slaves. I havent been able to find 1 web site that seems to face all these issues and wants to gather all their reserves to help make this happen. What I think is that all these grass roots site and any site that is against reform and wants to stand strong against any issue and get the fires started to make things happens need to all ban together and join their members to grow our numbers where we can't be ignored. They could share costs and web domain space and start an information revelution for monitoring and control of the government which, I need not remind you, was set up, "of the people, by the people and for the people," not, "of the elites, by the elites, and for the elites(not their slave class)."

What else can we do?

WHERE'S THE DA## FENCE?

I've found a correltation between
repetition and falsehood, but of course like all correlations, its not one to one
but thats jsut me

I note that Jesus seemed to me to be a man of brevity and fewer words when he spoke

We the People
What all this shows us is that if we really are We the People, we m