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Wednesday, May 23, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Amnesty Fraud: Part II
by Thomas Sowell
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Every aspect of the current immigration bill, and of the arguments made for it, has Fraud written all over it.

The first, and perhaps biggest, fraud is the argument that illegal aliens are "doing jobs Americans won't do." There are no such jobs.

Even in the sector of the economy in which illegal immigrants have the highest representation -- agriculture -- they are just 24 percent of the workers. Where did the other 76 percent come from, if these are jobs that Americans won't do?

The argument that illegal agricultural workers are "making a contribution to the economy" is likewise misleading.

For well over half a century, this country has had chronic agricultural surpluses which have cost the taxpayers billions of dollars a year to buy, store, and try to get rid of on the world market at money-losing prices.

If there were fewer agricultural workers and smaller agricultural surpluses, the taxpayers would save money.

What about illegal immigrants working outside of agriculture? They are a great bargain for their employers, because they are usually hard-working people who accept low pay and don't cause any trouble on the job.

But they are no bargain for the taxpayers who cover their medical bills, the education of their children and the costs of imprisoning those who commit a disproportionate share of crime.

Analogies with immigrants who came to this country in the 19th century and early 20th century are hollow, and those who make such analogies must know how different the situation is today.

People who crossed an ocean to get here, many generations ago, usually came here to become Americans. There were organized efforts within their communities, as well as in the larger society around them, to help them assimilate.

Today, there are activists working in just the opposite direction, to keep foreigners foreign, to demand that society adjust to them by making everything accessible to them in their own language, minimizing their need to learn English.

As activists are working hard to keep alive a foreign subculture in so-called "bilingual" and other programs, they are also feeding the young especially with a steady diet of historic grievances about things that happened before the immigrants got here -- and before they were born.

These Balkanization efforts are joined by other Americans as part of the "multicultural" ideology that pervades the education system, the media, and politics.

The ease with which people can move back and forth between the United States and Mexico -- as contrasted with those who made a one-way trip across the Atlantic in earlier times -- reduces still further the likelihood that these new immigrants will assimilate and become an integral part of the American society as readily as many earlier immigrants did.

Claims that the new immigration bill will have "tough" requirements, including learning English, have little credibility in view of the way existing laws are not being enforced.

What does "learning English" mean? I can say "arrivederci" and "buongiorno" but does that mean that I speak Italian?

Does anyone expect a serious effort to require a real knowledge of English from a government that captures people trying to enter the country illegally and then turns them loose inside the United States with instructions to report back to court -- which of course they are not about to do?

Another fraudulent argument for the new immigration bill is that it would facilitate the "unification of families." People can unify their families by going back home to them. Otherwise every illegal immigrant accepted can mean a dozen relatives to follow.

"What can we do with the 12 million people already here illegally?" is the question asked by amnesty supporters. We can stop them from becoming 40 million or 50 million, the way 3 million illegals became 12 million after the previous amnesty.

The most fundamental question of all has not been asked: Who should decide how many people, with what qualifications and prospects, are to be admitted into this country? Is that decision supposed to be made by anyone in Mexico who wants to come here?

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Fight For Your Republic!
A storm is brewing over America. Traitors who mascarade as our political leader be afraid, be very afraid.

Leaders
Not just one leader, all of the traitors that support the invasion of our nation.

Brilliant Dr. Sowell.
Now, how about telling Hugh Hewitt to read this.

To those who defend illegal aliens by saying,"They pay taxes," I thought it was illegal to profit from the commission of a crime? Confiscate their (illegal aliens') entire "paycheck."

La Raza
La Raza is the politcal arm of the mexican mafia. I knew an American of Mexican decent who did some jail time back in the 1980's and he was being indoctrinated by the mexican mafia. He told me that La Raza/Mexico intended to take back the entire South Western United States. Now congress & the pres are making that dream come true.

Attention Patriots!
Clear your calendars on June 14, 15, 16 so you can march on Washington DC or your own State Capitals. http://www.lframerica.com

A politician's promise
has about as much value as used toilet paper, and is about as attractive.

This abortion of a bill has "provisions" that we're "promised" are going to be "enforced".

Man, I heard all that back in 1986 when Simpson-Mazzoli was being forced down our throats! I'm STILL waiting for enforcement to begin on that, and it's been over 20 years! We were promised all the great things, employer sanctions, one-time never to be repeated permanent solution, blah blah blah, border security, ID checks, blah blah blah, arrests, deportations, blah blah blah, and amnesty.

The only thing we ended up with was the amnesty.

These political hacks are total pigs.

When the GOP was trying to save its political butt last year we were given the "fence bill" as a sop, and no one is building one foot of fence.

ANOTHER broken promise on the immigration issue!

Now we're hearing the same old promises yet AGAIN. I mean, how stupid do they think we are?

Last paragraph is brilliant:
"The most fundamental question of all has not been asked: Who should decide how many people, with what qualifications and prospects, are to be admitted into this country? Is that decision supposed to be made by anyone in Mexico who wants to come here?"

Exactly!

By the by, anyone interested in immigration is welcome to drop by my blog (just click on my name) and check out the links to a couple of Mark Steyn columns as well as a Jack Kelly column on the subject.

Brian,
"A politician's promise
has about as much value as used toilet paper, and is about as attractive."

Now there's some imagery for you. Especially if we're talking one sheet.

Oh, yeah
I forgot to plug my own blog (thanks for reminding me, Cyne).

An essay on "The Bush Legacy" that's absolutely on-topic.


Cyne: LOL
Sheryl Crow to the rescue!


I'm surprised Dr. Sowell
hasn't yet made the argument that allowing massive immigration of any kind from Mexico is less compassionate than returning them to their homeland (contrary to another fraudulent argument).

Which Mexicans are coming here? The most diligent and ambitious workers who cannot get decent jobs in Mexico, let alone jobs that will allow their families to do more than just survive? Those who are willing to take risks to improve their lives? Those who yearn for freedom: economic, political, and personal?

Who does that leave in Mexico? In the low-education, low-skill workforce, it leaves less-industrious, less-motivated, and risk-averse laborers. Among citizens, it leaves those who are more likely to be content with the status quo: gov't and police corruption, gang infestation, drug cartels, etc. How can Mexico ever make economic and political progress if so many of their most motivated citizens permanently move to the U.S.? Of course, that's why the Mexican gov't wants to export these people who could make trouble for them.

Amnesty Bill
Why do I suspect that President Bush made a deal with Teddy Kennedy to trade (largely) unconditional Iraq war funding for this amnesty bill?

BrianR
Your right of course. But regarding your question "How stupid do they think we are?" I would say very very stupid! Considering we keep voting the same scum back in over and over.

Plus they know they will just jam this crap down our throats whether we like it or not. I think the only reason they speak to the People at all is to appease and keep us from raising up in revolt!

The Internet
The internet, 2007's version of "The Midnight Ride Of Paul Revere"

We owe the illegals our hospitality.
It is the right of every citizen in the world to inhabit any part of the planet that they wish. And it is the obligation of those that reside in the desired place to take care of those who come there and accommodate them as much as possible.

To reject newcomers and eschew the obligation to support them simply indicates a high level of xenophobia and rascism. There can be no other reason for rejecting those who wish to migrate.

Goshawk/BrianR
Many are stupid, but not all. "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and fool all of the people some of the time, but, you can't fool all of the people all of the time" A. Lincoln

LD
The satire has started, I am not worthy.

LD
:-)

largecaliber
Yeah, it's called Aztlan. Ever seen this video? Warning it will really make you angry.

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?page_id=810

Help restore the work ethic..end welfare
" The first, and perhaps biggest, fraud is the argument that illegal aliens are "doing jobs Americans won't do." There are no such jobs."

I'm not so sure this is totally true anymore, but if we got rid of welfare it sure would ring true again.

Fight BDS
Bring on the Therapists our poor Pres Bush is suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome and Sen McCain also has caught it....not....they are just elitists who don't care what the unwashed masses (WE THE PEOPLE, they think of us as the unwashed masses) think. The power of our Government flows from the Citizen to the Government not the other way around.

Liberty
Every war ever fought between USA, or future parts of USA, and Mexico, has always resulted in defeat for Mexico. If the attempts to create Aztlan results in a shooting war this will be no different, we just have to make sure the libtards are our cannon fodder.

@ Loyal Democrat
I find your lack of logic and grasp of reality faulty. If everyone in France decided to relocate to Luxembourg, according to your logic they have the inalienable right to do so no matter what Luxembourg's opinion would be...and to boot Luxembourg would have to foot the bill to accommodate them all.

"There are limits, there are boundaries - It is a geographical accident that allows the poor of Mexico to stampede across to El Norte. It is not a God Given Right for those south of the border to come here..."

Get In Line Like Everyone Else
http://malize.townhall.com/g/e14f67b3-9336-4f0b-98b5-6a7279c644bd

I'm telling ya, pick up the phone and cut your weed order in half for next week.


malize
LD writes satire, and he's on his A game today.

Who Decides?
Mr. Sowell's question is well put. After reading the article titled "Florida Gov. Bus Calls Tone of Immigration Debate 'Hurtful' in Townhall's blog section, I now see where George and Jeb Bush stand on the issue.

"Both have long advocated open immigration laws, putting them at odds with many in their party." Jeb Bush speaks at how hurtful the debate has become to many Latinos including his Mexican wife. During the whole column Jeb Bush seems to equate lawbreaking immigrants with legal immigrants with no differences.

Jeb Bush also shows some of his true concern when he talks about losing the Hispanic vote if republicans dare to debate immigration at all. There are some in the debate who do see all immigration as bad, but for most it is an issue of legal and illegal immigration and protecting our borders from further abuse. That seems to be a pretty black and white issue to me and shouldn't need a 1,000 page bill full of contradictions to fix!!!

What now?
Please, Fraud was both nutty and erudite, but that we can't figure that out is not his fault, but ours.

You do not to meet him to get through the first chapter of his seminal work (which typically I forget) to understand, he can't speak fully. He can only speak approximately. But this is true of the whole of that era's thought--see Darwin.

He's (Darwin who almost admitted modesty, but couldn’t) the only great thinker from that age who is not allowed to come out and play and have recess.

The solution
Move a 1 mile stretch of border land in Texas north by 100 miles. Do this every week until we get to Canada. With the cooperation of Canadian officials, by sometime next year all Mexicans will be living in the Yukon territories. Vote me for president!

why can't we ship 'em back to Mexico
I did the math- as of 5/23/07 travelocity has a flight listed with United, Los Angeles to Mexico City $178. Multiply that by 12 million and you end up with 2.136 billion dollars. Considering the Heritage foundation did a study showing that the U.S. spends about 89 billion a year on Medicaid, education, WIC, HUD and various other subsidies on the illegals, the 2 billion doesn't seem like much to me.

Excellent
Thank you Dr. Sowell. Run Thomas, run.

A serious question (not satire)
Note: I agree with Dr. Sowell's positions from an intellectual and pragmatic point of view. However, I have a question:
---------
I'm assuming that many of the anti-illegal-immigration posters on this thread are religious conservatives.

Here's my question: Can religious conservatives make a 'moral' case against illegal immigrants?

Not the ones that have committed murder, rape, robbery - of course! But what about the majority of the 12M poor, hardworking, mostly Christian, family-oriented 'economic refugees' who were unfortunate enough to be born on the wrong side of the Rio Grande?

If you are religious, how can you be upset about the higher taxes that result from our generosity towards our less fortunate brethren?

Can someone help me sort out this seeming inconsistency?

Amnesty Fraud Part II
This is starting out the same way as all of the other columns on this subject. The people who want to abandon the country say the same things they did in the other columns. NOne of it makes any sense, but they keep on saying it. The pro-illegal advocates fall into two categoeies:

1. The largest category is the "I want to feel good abouty myself" liberal. We should love all human kind and allow them to come here and be uplifted and our soon to be socilaist utopia.

2. The second category is the "Lets surrender to the inevitable" individual, liberal or conservative. We can't stop it because there is too many. Besides they are doing jobs nobody else will do and farms/construction need them.

We have examined all of the arguments for letting them in and none are rational. Give it up people, you are just making fools of yourself.

Enforce the law ..
Those who take the 'enforce the law' position on this subject make an excellent defense of the anti-illegal-immigration position.

However, the laws and systems to which they refer are man-made; those protections are in place, ostensibly for pragmatic reasons.

Can someone offer a consistent MORAL argument, that a religious conservative might make on the anti-illegal-immigration side?

Doesn't it run counter to the religious principles of:

* charity
* sacrifice
* helping your fellow man
* loving your neighbor as yourself

Can someone help me out of this moral dilemma?

No surrender,here,Vic
Wow..who would have thoughtI would ever agree w/ Tanabear...I am not in the surrender group and there are no rational ways to get them out either, because none of the laws are being enforced.
The easiest way to round em up as Brian said would be to wait at the ER's...but hey, why not find the biggest farms in FL,GA,NC and do a few stings...then we take it to the prison system. Boy,overcrowding will cease to be an issue. Oh, and we could re-con the churches...especially al the ones that have the Spanish signs on them. Works for me.

"economic refugees"?
You gotta be kidding me. With THAT logic I guess I am one as well since I didn't get to be born to rich parents. With that logic if I break into Bill Gates' house I can stay there and have him pick up the tab while loony lefties and vote hungry pols try to convince the rest of us that I need to be there and let's rewrite the definition of amnesty while we are at it, like clintoon rewrote "IS".

I want the laws enforced period! I want these people to have to immigrate the same way my people and yours did, LEGALLY!

I want employers fined as the law demands. If their business requires that they employ illegal aliens then they are running an on-going criminal enterprise and I would suppose the feds could employ RICO statutes.

I want them OUT, while we sort through the mess.

For every one that is here now, this bill allows at least 5 more un-educated, non English speaking people to come here and consume services. We can't afford them, we shouldn't have to be paying for the slugs we have now...we MUST stop this in it's tracks or the American dream will be lost for our grandchildren. It's theirs NOT some 3rd worlders, WE worked to give it to THEM and not some lousy politician to give away for votes.

I say to them you better wake up or learn to like tea.

BTW...
...does this bill pertain to ALL illegal aliens or just Mexicans? Can I contact my distant relatives in Scotland and Ireland to get over here ASAP? Don't wait in line,JUMP THE LINE! Look,they can fly into Quebec for peanuts,make their way South where we have a 3000 mile border with Canada and NO FENCE OR DESERT!They won't have to worry about Mayors like Bloomberg sweeping the city for illegal Irishmen because New York is a sanctuary city.Not only that,but they already have an education and speak the language fluently (better than most of the native born,I suspect).

Yeah,I like this idea!

Just click on my name,and I promise nothing will happen, because I don't have a blog and don't want one.

Fair enough?

Hard work - low quality
Illegal workers don't make much of a a contribution to the economy as, while they may work hard, the quality of their output is extremely low (as is their integrety). Here in CO, many contrators employee "non-assimilating" aliens from Mexico to construct homes with the end results being that the quality is quite low (much like the shacks in Mexico).

(While working at Mtn Bell/USWEST, I met many Mexicans who had assimilated into the culture of the United States - the quality of their work being far greater than that of aliens from Mexico.)


Seawolf, re: your refugee status
In a world where Bill Gates is appreciated for his philanthropy and reviled for his wealth, your point is well taken.

BTW, you certainly have MY permission to move into the Gates mansion. In fact, I would be glad to sign a 'relocate Seawolf' petition.

Meanwhile, can you (or any other religious conservative) help me with my moral quandry (see previous post)?

voice of reason
Disclaimer:
I am of two minds on the immigration issue precisely because of the point you bring up. We should extend charity, IF at all possible, to our less fortunate brothers and sisters who want to come here, but we also owe charity to those already here and we may not be able to afford both.

But--and it's a big however--what exactly do you mean by charity? There is a big difference between giving a substantial amount to help the poor--of whatever nationality--from your own money (yes, I do, BTW) and wanting taxes to be raised.

"And a voter who takes pride in supporting such [tax] programs is telling us that he'll do good with his own money - if a gun is held to his head." --P. J. O'Rourke

The immigration policy disagreements are over
(1) whether we are protecting ourselves from people who want to come here to harm us and
(2) your question - whether or not we can afford to extend America's history of generosity to ALL the people who wants to come here to alleviate their poverty and lack of opportunity.
And no matter how much charity you give, you can't alleviate everyone's need. So the question is, how to decide when to stop? And how much of everyone's money (taxes), and not just our own, can we, in fairness to everyone, commit to this endeavor? No easy answers here.

To voice of reason
I am probably not the one to answer this one because I haven't been a church for anything but weddings and funerals since I was a kid, but here is my go at it.

Jesus said "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's". The law belngs to Ceaser, follow it. Once it is enforced we can talk about changing it.

Illegal Aliens
There are two major items I never hear about. Social Security fraud and the vegetables in grocery stores are not really cheap!

Look this is never going to get resolved. We just keep going in circles. We're not going to last as a nation anyway so why don't we just give them ID cards in the meantime. At least our social security info (what's left of it by them we retire) will be protected.

voice of reason
Say that somehow I manage to sneak into another country with the help of expatriates of my acquaintance who are citizens. I create a false identity and get some fake documentation to support it. I get a job and work hard at it. I pay taxes, abide by the law and generally stay under the radar. I learn the language, even though many people in my adopted country speak English. I marry and have children, and take advantage of the schools and other public services for which I “qualify”, though the few taxes I pay don’t come close to a fair share of the value of the services. I try to stick with the ex-pat crowd, since to do otherwise might expose me to discovery. However, I’m discovered anyway, and I and my family are deported back to my country of origin.

How is any of this the fault of the country deporting me? I was the one who broke their laws, who lied about my identity, who stole their public services paid for by their citizens in good faith. It’s my morality that’s compromised, not that of the people I duped.

Voice of Reason
voice_of_reason writes: Can someone offer a consistent MORAL argument, that a religious conservative might make on the anti-illegal-immigration side?

I think if you look at who is hurt by illegal immigration, you'll have your answer.

For one thing, many of the illegal immigrants are poorly educated. I sympathize with them. Who wouldn't want to come to this land of opportunity under those circumstances? But who is hurt by an invasion of poorly educated workers? How about those Americans who are near the bottom intellectually and economically and are now competing against millions of poorly educated illegal immigrants for the same low-skill jobs? This puts downward pressure on the value of those jobs, resulting in decreased wages for the law abiding American citizens and legal immigrants who do those jobs.

And what about all those people in the world who would love to immigrate to American, but are trying to do so legally? Well, I suppose we could change the law and just take in anyone who wants to come to America, but I'm not sure what we do with them. It would pretty much ruin our economy, which would negate the whole benefit of coming to America. So, unless we are going to just open the door to everyone, we have to limit the number of people who come here. And this flood of illegal aliens means American can take in fewer LEGAL immigrants.

Furthermore, conscientious business owners who won't hire illegal workers because it is against the law are at a disadvantage compared to their less ethical competition.

And finally, it is the government's foremost responsibility to protect its citizens. How many of these people entering the country illegally are here to commit crime or even terrorist acts? We don't know because we don't even know who is here. Several of the 9-11 hijackers were here illegally, and nearly 3,000 people paid for that with their lives. By not upholding the law, our government is reneging on its promise to defend law abiding citizens and putting every single one of us at risk.

In all these cases, amnesty for illegal aliens rewards law breaking at the expense of those who abide by the law. Our word is supposed to mean something. If we make promises, we should keep them. Well, we've made laws that promise certain rewards for obeying our laws and penalties for breaking them. Isn't it immoral to penalize people who obey the law and reward those who don't?

to Voice of Reason:
Except for the ten commandments, it seems that all laws are "manmade" as you put it. That includes our constitution. So -- given that laws are manmade -- does that mean we are free to ignore those laws that don't tickle our individual moral compass? We are a nation of immigrants, the vast majority of which came here to become Americans. If strangers come among us they are welcome if they want to become part of us. Some illegals do. Many don't. I happen to admire and respect Mexicans. They were Texans at the Alamo and they became proud Americans. But many of the current crop remind me of the Cuban boat people: they are the ones the home country doesn't mind losing. Especially if they send money home which drives Mexico's economic engine. Mexico makes demands of us and helps write our immigration laws. We could learn a lot from them. The have the toughest anti-immigration laws in the hemisphere. Maybe we should either adopt their laws or persuade them to adopt ours. Wouldn't that be a moral thing to do? Then their citizens either stay home or our citizens move to Mexico and buy it.

Lestat
Not all of the most undesireable ones stay south of the border. Just check the crime stats in your area if you have any size hispanic population at all. Check out the gang reports also. A lot of the trash is comming in with the hard workers.

Voiceofreason
As an argument I would offer you this. charity, love thy neighbor, andhelping your fellow man are good qualities and I support them 100% but they can all be accomplished while they are still in MEXICO!

Contact Congress!
If I had any doubt that it is just one big
cluster xxxx up there in Washington, they have removed all doubt! Funny thing, though-- this thing is SO EGREGIOUS that it might be just what it takes to get Middle America properly aroused to rattle their cages in Washington. Fred Thompson is already saying that we should build the damm wall before even considering a bill. Mitt has dubbed it Scamnesty-- these are good signs!

For those who want to join the fight to save America, please see my transfer post just below with a link that will take you right to your Senators' and Congresspersons' official phone numbers, web sites, e-mail addresses, etc.
_________________________________________________

Scamnesty: The Ultimate Largesse

Be afraid-- be VERY AFRAID! Congress, pushed relentlessly by the Conpiracy Of Evil, is poised to create a path to Scamnesty for 12-20 million ILLEGAL aliens. With "chain migration," that will mean MANY MORE millions of indigent poor-- and the permanent morphing of America into an entitlement government welfare state. The public trough will become a voracious, inexorable black hole devouring all that has made America great.

If you listen to the pro-ILLEGAL alien arguments by members of the Conspiracy Of Evil, they are like low-hangin' fruit to refute:

1) Disingenuous premises:
The "undocumented workers" are generally hard working, good people who simply want to feed their families and do those jobs that Americans won't do that America must have done.

Reality Check:
ILLEGALS are too often both poor and undereducated-- a formula for DISASTER if they are allowed to naturalize. We are simply allowing corrupt Mexico to dump its welfare problems on America. ILLEGALS drive down wages, and they ARE taking good jobs-- America does not save at all! A relative few hoteliers, contractors, meat processors, and other law-breaking employers milk them for lesser wages, then the TAXPAYERS GET STUCK with the crimes, barrio blight, drugs, gangs, sullied schools, ethnocentricity, and welfare costs. Bilingual education is a scam and an abysmal failure. ILLEGALS are at least 3x as likely as legal residents to be incarcerated for serious crimes:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

2) We should respect their "rights" and put those who have a job on a path to citizenship and require the payment of back taxes, learning English, and paying a $2,000 fine.

Truth Check--
HOGWASH! We owe them NOTHING! NO THING! We need to require a tamper-proof I.D. card ASAP for ANY non-citizen to function here period-- to work, get a license, attend school, rent an apt., pass go, etc. They will not really build the wall or otherwise crack down on employers-- the card radiates the cancer at its starting point. Make ILLEGALS repatriate to apply for it, then vet them thoroughly to see who might come back on an INTERIM basis to work. There should be NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between having been here ILLEGALLY and later gaining citizenship. Token fines and back taxes are a farce! Some would charge them a $2,000 fee when their ANNUAL cost to taxpayers (per Heritage) will be $22k just in net govt. services used alone for a family headed by an uneducated, poor ILLEGAL?!?!

Why is this such a vexing problem? Because different powerful users with ulterior agendas salivate over ILLEGALS --> the PC "elite" left sees poor, malleable voters (40 acres and a mule redux) who will assure big entitlement government for the Big Brother elites to control; miscreant employers see cheap labor that the taxpayers are forced to subsidize; the scandal-plagued Catholic Church sees replacement contributors; self-serving national pols see hispanic votes in key states; the well-heeled like their cheap domestic help-- and THEIR children will not have their private schools ruined by them; finally the latino groups quite simply indubitably seek the Reconquista-- the morphing of America into Mexicomerica.

Middle America MUST unite and stop Scamnesty which is again pending in Congress. You can learn more and/or get involved to save America at the sites below. First, an easy way to reach the OFFICIAL contact info for your Senators and Representatives to oppose the pending Scamnesty Bills:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

BOOKMARK IT AND BARK AT THEM OFTEN! It IS EASY-- just a few clicks!!!

Some say that it does no good to contact Congress... don't believe it! Middle Americans like you derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in the House last year! Congressman Peter King said he had NEVER seen such a revolt in the heartland in his many years in congress. BUT the Conspiracy Of Evil is determined to cram ILLEGALS down America's throats, so we MUST BE RELENTLESS in expressing our righteous indignation to stop Scamnesty. We won the first battle, but we MUST NOT LOSE THE WAR! Congressional staffers track the feedback... I get letters and e-mails back from Congresspersons who do not even represent me addressing my specific concerns. YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Other good sites are below... the first one is GREAT -- a well-organized group trying to save America from myopia... it has prepared e-mails addressing proposed legislation you can customize and/or just send to your elected representatives!:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=opposeamnesty&s_src=K0613&s_subsrc=olk0604&printer_friendly=1
http://www.immigrationcontrol.com/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/middecade/
http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200701/NAT20070110a.html

FOLKS, THE VERY SURVIVAL OF THE AMERICAN HERITAGE, RULE OF LAW, CULTURE, COMMON LANGUAGE, SOCIO-ECONOMIC STABILITY-- INDEED THE AMERICAN WAY IF LIFE ITSELF-- ARE IN DIRE JEOPARDY!

That "cheap" labor is nothing of the sort! Per Heritage, EACH household headed by an undereducated, ILLEGAL alien will cost taxpayers $22k a year in deficit taxes versus services used alone! And that is just the tip of the iceberg of their total costs (crime control, enervated schools, balkanized barrios)! GET INVOLVED TO STOP THE INVASION NOW FOLKS-- BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE! AMERICA WOULD BE A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!

________________________________________________

[e-mail to the major media]

To: Selected National Media

re: ILLEGAL "immigration"-- compelling images?

Larry King had a guest panel discussing ILLEGAL immigration tonight. At the end of the program, a latino offered a bowl of fruit allegedly picked by ILLEGAL aliens as an example of their contribution to America-- "doing those
jobs Americans won't do."

In closing, Larry King turned to Congressman Duncan Hunter and asked if he would like to comment on that image. Congressman Hunter said, "Yeah Larry-- we recently visited a Swift Meat plant where a raid had caught 800 ILLEGAL aliens-- Swift replaced them immediately with Americans who GOT THEIR JOBS BACK."

Analysis:
Among the myriad myths perpetrated by the self-aggrandizing apologists for ILLEGAL aliens, this myth of doing jobs otherwise undone is especially egregious and unctuous. Miscreant employers do milk the "cheaper" labor, BUT the EMPLOYERS pocket the savings-- the end product/service is very little cheaper in price, if any... then American TAXPAYERS and society bear the substantial concomitant costs pandemically associated with undereducated, indigent, ILLEGAL aliens-- e.g., crimes, drugs, gangs, dropouts, illegitimacies, decimated schools and enervated social service delivery systems, balkanization, and barrio blight.

Furthermore, ILLEGALS ARE displacing Americans in quite a lot of jobs as they and their miscreant employers break our laws, including dodging taxes. Some might call the burglar who breaks into a home an "uninvited guest," but putting lipstick on the pig does not lessen the crime. We would be FAR BETTER SERVED as a society and economy if employers hired LEGAL workers at fair wages.



Response to Voice of Reason
You want a "religious, moral" reason to deny illegal immigration. The Almighty put governments in place. The job of the government is primarily to protect the people that they govern. This includes the creation and enforcement of laws.

All A Smoke Screen
Don't worry folks! It is all smoke! This bill will not pass. Washington knows it won't pass - it is only their effort to LOOK LIKE they are doing something about immigration. Remember, the legislative branch has a lower rating than the executive. There are so manny things that can be done without additional legislation (non-counterfieting ID cards, enforcing existing laws, etc.) that all of Washington wants to take the spotlight off of. There is no will in Washington to really solve the problem.

Third party
If this scamnasty is passed, it will be the end of republicans. But do not fear a third party will be take its place.(LA RAZA) That's a poke in the eye of the dummycrats. They can forget about being in charge of anything forever.Teddy and other hate America first ones, will be out of a job.
Think about the fallout of this. No English. No jobs.No freedom.No wealth. No middle class.No America. We will all be deported. They will take the time and energy to do that.

DEAR TREE (AND FOUR) HUGGGERS
ILLEGALS TAKE MORE from US than they CONTRIBUTE, may bring any disease(no control),
etc.
They broke our laws and keep on breaking them - by using fraudulant driver's licenses, fraudulent insurance cards, etc.
If you like 'em abouve your country, take them into your home and feed 'em with your money; one day you give them an omelete without salsa and they may rip your head off with that imbecilic grin on it, and with that two-gray-cell "brain".
Just shut up and read the writings of men and women of substance.

Smokeykhan
The way you deal with the problem is the same way you deal with any flood. you You build barriers to keep the flood waters back. This is simple reasoning ,I know, but if Washington would deal in more simple terms and not try to make things seem more difficult than they are just to make it look like they are doing something then maybe we could get something done.

Constitution and Immigration
Constitution and Immigration

Who should decide how many people, with what qualifications and prospects are to be admitted? First it falls within the constitution, then with statutory law. And it shall be the law of the land, hence no sanctuaries. Any legislation considering illegal immigration should be tied to federal funds like the federal highways. Federal funds should be withdrawn from districts in which immigration laws are not enforced.

The constitution of the United States is not extra-territorial, noncitizens have no legal rights to migrate here. I feel no moral problem with not having to support every ner do well, sorry a--, tail dragger in the world. My charity starts at home with my parents who get by on social security and a little extra income from a rental house. And everybody else who comes with an upturned palm: "You can stop talking, put your hand down, and just start walking." I'm tired of hearing how I am supposed to support every Pobrecito in the world. So, don't come crying to me about the next whiner and crier who wants to come here illegally.

I am in favor of legal immigration. However, the statement on the statue of liberty is not part of the constitution. Loyal Democrat lives in the song "Imagine," and is not living in the real world. The first order of business is to deal with reality and not live in a world of fantasy. Either we have a nation with borders and the will to defend them or we don't. We only lack the will and a leader with integrity and courage. This country once upon a time sent men to the moon. No one else has done it since. That was almost forty years ago. Where there was a will to do that, then there must be a will to address the illegal immigraton problem. There must be a national will to get this situation under control. Any immigration law is federal and the law of the land and such laws must have a national will to enforce it.

Dr. K

TREASON!!!
The lot of them ought to be hanged for TREASON! They are working hard to destroy America. The only name for it is treason. Pelosi, Kennedy, McCain, Bush, the whole lot of the anti-American traitors should be rounded up and hanged, every single one of the anti-American traitors.


Bob

Catch more of The World according to Bob at: http://bobstruth.blogspot.com/

VOICE OF LOGIC AND FACTS
Myths and lies of illegal immigration

By Kathy McKee, 01/04, 2004; The Sonoran News

Because the pro-illegal alien lobby has a bottomless pit of money and can hire PR people to spin (and fabricate) anything any way, there are an undue number of myths and lies that the public (and many politicians) has bought into. The FACTS are:

1. It is NOT racist to call these people "illegal aliens" In fact, "illegal aliens" is the only term used in federal laws and regulations to describe criminals (and they ARE criminals) who come into our country illegally. They are not illegal immigrants, not undocumented immigrants, not migrant workers, and not day laborers - they're ILLEGAL ALIENS.

2. Mexico is NOT a poor country. By sending its teeming masses to our country, that status keeps on rising. Mexico has more resources per square mile than the U.S. and plenty of money to take care of its own people. Why should the taxpayers of this country subsidize Mexico's corruption?

3. Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

4. Illegal aliens are NOT doing work Americans won't do. What jobs won't Americans do? In most states, Americans still clean their own houses, do their own landscaping, clean hotel rooms, work in restaurants and fast food places, paint houses, DO CONSTRUCTION WORK, work in airports, etc. - just like we have the past 200 years before "our" government allowed these people to invade our country. There are 18 million Americans who cannot find a job, so illegal aliens who are coming here to work do so at peril to American workers.

5. Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents).Some bargain, eh?

6. The economy does NOT depend on illegal aliens. Sure, greedy CEOs (making $50 to $150 MILLION a year) and business owners depend on illegal aliens, but due to #3, #4 and #5 above, the only thing illegal aliens are contributing to is the collapse of our economy and making the rich richer.

7. Without illegal aliens, the price of agricultural products and other goods and services will NOT soar. The definitive study on this subject is the University of Iowa's "How Much Is That Tomato?" The study concludes that 'since labor is such a small component of the end-price of agricultural products (which includes price to the growers, transportation costs, processing /storage costs, grocers' profit, etc.), using minimum wage workers instead of illegal aliens would increase prices of agricultural products by approximately 3 percent in the summer and 4 percent in the winter ... hardly the making of $10 heads of lettuce, $25 hamburgers, $1,000 per night Days Inn hotel rooms like the pro-illegal alien lobby claims.

8. Consumers are NOT benefiting from lower labor costs. Again, it's CEOs and business owners who benefit from taxpayer subsidies for their illegal alien workers. The Big Three automakers say they moved so many jobs to Mexico because their labor costs are 80 percent less than in America. Anybody notice the price of new cars spiraling downward under NAFTA?

So, before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien lobby, which makes billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself who's saying this garbage and look at what they have to gain. Citizens Against Illegal Immigration, just like Protect Arizona NOW, is an all-volunteer, totally grass-roots organization of citizens who are making nothing and have nothing personal to gain from their efforts to fight this corruption. Whose side are you on, and what are YOU doing to save your state and country from this evil?

Kick them all out.
I heard this pathetic RINO fool Arlen Specter talking about how his father came here at the turn of the century because of the persecution of the Russian Czar. Well my grandfather came here too for that reason, Arlen. Only he came here legally, learned English, worked hard and didn't run to his local government office for his medicaid, foodstamps, welfare, SSI, AFDC, etc.
They should all be kicked out, not only the illegal aliens but every politician, Democrat and RINO Republican, who support this abominable bill.
And they will be.

It's A Race
The politicians KNOW how the American people feel about amnesty. They also KNOW how we feel about the border. They also know there is going to be one he|| of a backlash vote in '08. That is why they are racing to get as many illegals as possible into the country, registered and voting so as to cancel out the American people's votes against their sorry azzes. Do not think illegals are not already voting in our elections, either. All it takes to register is a driver's license.

Voice of Reason
Deu 7:3 -4 (keeping out foreigners because they corrupt culture),

Deu 12:30-31 (keep foreign culture influence out),

Deu 28 (land and law given exclusively to the chosen people).

Deu 29:18, 20-21 (even those of the chosen who shall reject the culture shall be culled out of the nation and be cursed, let alone letting those from outside the culture).

In short the land is given and divided among the God’s chosen, led by Moses. They are to remain a pure culture in the land given specifically and only to this select culture and it is to prosper only for them that specifically go to possess the land and their offspring, Deu 30:16 & Josh 14:5, 23:4. Deu 34:4,

God says in Josh 23:12 -15 "that if there are remnants of Canaanites, that had not been killed living nearby or harbored by some of you, that they will corrupt your pure culture and God will take vengeance against you for not keeping their nation pure from others."

Judges 2:1-2, 3:1-8 (punished for mingling with folks who were not of their chosen tribes)

Mat 15:26 "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (she being the dog or a Canaanite, again showing purity of the Jewish culture as stated in the OT verses. )

Mat 10:5-6, (house of Israel and avoid others)


Migration vs. Immigration


Migration is a movement of people from one place to another. Immigration is citizens of one country applying for legal entry to another country with the intent to become a citizen of that country. The debate is not about immigration at all. It's about moving the cheap labor here. Old fashioned notions like citizenship and borders get in the way of that. Bush is telling us illegal aliens do not want to be Americans, they just want to work here. The real answer is for foreigners to clean up their own countries so they do not need to flee them. Citizens of other countries do not have any right to "migrate" into our country without permission. If America announces to the world, "We can't stop you, so come on in", with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We The People.

They have purposely let the situation get worse to try to force us into another amnesty/guestworker/regularization, whatever euphamism it is this week. The media, unions, both parties, churches, and mostly the corrupt corporations employing them are working to undermine our sovereignty as a nation and our rule of law.

Until very recently there was practically NO enforcement.
And the numbers are much higher than 8-10 million. We are being purposely misled. Most of what you hear about illegal aliens is propaganda to get us to give up our country without a fight. In 1986 we were told it was less than 1 million, turned out to be 3.6 million getting amnesty, a few of them were involved in bombing the WTC in 1993. This time we're being told 10 million, it is more like 20-30 million. Enforcement under Clinton was insufficient but looked robust compared to this administration. We must tell the cheap labor importers NO! in no uncertain terms. Or kiss America goodbye.

Let Me Out
But where to go? Not many countries accept immigrants so easily. You have to sell your soul to immigrate to Mexico. But what with my social insecurity I could live very well.

Or should I stay in this country and work to remove the criminals from our country? Both the illegal (criminal) Mexicans and the crooked polititions in Washington DC. Maybe the Mexican government with all its corruption with be a natural place for these crooks.

We were given the right to bear arms; maybe it is time we use them.

Just Remember
Come 11 of '08, just remember how your senators
and representative voted on immigration issues.

VirginiaPatriot
Not "migration" VirginiaPatriot, it should be emigration. Migration is something birds do.

voice_of_reason writes:.....
........."A serious question (not satire). Here's my question: Can religious conservatives make a 'moral' case against illegal immigrants?"

The best place to start, would be Romans where we are told (by God through Paul) that He (God) is in charge and has put (all) governments in place (all for His good, not necessarily for our understanding). The current government of this country has laws in place that make these ‘illegals’ illegal. We as Christians should want those laws enforced. Our government is “of and by the people” (not a civics lesson, just a precursor to a point) so we should, as Christians and citizens, be both concerned and INVOLVED in the making of new law.

Now, should that new law be one that is full of:
* charity
* sacrifice
* helping your fellow man
* loving your neighbor as yourself?

I think, that as Christians and citizens, we can best do those listed items two ways if these people we are trying to help stay in Mexico. As individuals and through the (our) government. Why? Because if they are there we can (and should ) teach them to help themselves (the teach a man to fish ..... thing) so they will be capable to advance their own society toward our example of self government and better, richer lives.

If, however, we allow (and in many of the liberals cases, work for) a new law that will be detrimental to the point of destroying our country by allowing all of those things currently being proposed in this Bush -- Kennedy -- McCain legislation than we, as both individuals and as a country, will be UNABLE to do what is described in the preceding paragraph. That would be immoral!!!!

TBC :>)

Call your Senators !

You can all reach your people in Congress right here at their official sites:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Heck, contact LOTS of them in Congress!
NOW IS THE TIME FOR ALL GOOD AMERICANS TO SPEAK OUT LOUDLY-- while there is still an America to save! As information, here is the letter I have just sent...

[note: credit is owed to Congressman Ron Paul for the basis of the outline below.]
_____________________________________________

Dear Committee on the Judiciary:

We would like to share our letter to Senator McCain with the Judiciary Committee since the relevant issues are under your auspices. We believe that this is BY FAR the MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGE FACING AMERICA.

Thank you for considering our views. We hope that your Committee will put the best interests of America ahead of the self-aggrandizing desires of limited interest groups. We will be watching your decisions with GREAT interest.
_______________________________________________

Dear Senator McCain:

While we agree with you on some key subjects philosophically, there is one issue where we DISAGREE PROFOUNDLY: your indubitable support of ILLEGAL aliens. If you are to have ANY HOPE of winning the Oval Office, you need to change course on this according to 68% of the voting public:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

As a border state senator, you must be acutely aware of the problems these lawbreaking interlopers cause-- see the recent referenda issues passed in Az. which antithetically oppose the concepts of Bush-Kennedy Amnesty.

The Senate is poised to debate Immigration reform. We understand the pressures you face and hope that you will not again cave to the pressures of the special interests when the very
future of America is at stake. We agree with the following overview goals:

BORDER SECURITY AND IMMIGRATION REFORM

We must secure our borders NOW. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. Potential terrorists can dance across our soft underbelly border
or overstay visas.

1. We should FIRST physically secure our border with Mexico. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country BEFORE we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals; no more Simpson-Mazzoli Scamnesty shell game reforms. Only willful neglect by our government could have allowed this crisis to devolve.

2. Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays his/her visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired
visas. A tamper-proof I.D. may be necessary for all NON-citizens to function while VISITING America TEMPORARILY-- to work, get a license, rent an apartment, go to college, seek emergency assistance, pass go, etc.

3. NO AMNESTY-- PERIOD. Border crashing is only the first of what become lives of serial lawbreaking. There should be NO PATH TO CITIZENSHIP for those who have been here ILLEGALLY. It is a farce to speak of paying a token fine and back taxes when each ILLEGAL alien household is costing taxpayers $22k annually in deficit taxes versus social services used alone (Heritage).

4. No welfare for ILLEGAL aliens. Americans have welcomed LEGAL immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. BUT taxpayers should not pay for ILLEGAL immigrants who decimate hospitals, enervate schools, roads, and social services, and permeate illegitimacy, crime, drugs, gangs, and ethnocentric barrio balkanization. Public financial assistance for higher education for NON-citizens should be prohibited.

5. End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong. We need to reinterpret the 14th Amendment as it was intended... it could not have anticipated the current crisis of the ILLEGAL invasion.

6. Pass TRUE immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity. Legal
immigrants from all countries should face the SAME rules and waiting periods.

We MUST emphasize EDUCATED, SKILLED immigrants who can make positive contributions, NOT chain migration of those who become net users of government services-- like most ILLEGAL aliens. America cannot be the lifeboat to all of the world's less fortunate, lest the boat founder for all.

Thank you for considering our views, and thank you for your service to America.

Lost Souls
Dobbs: Will the Democrats save their souls?

Does Corporate America and Wall Street own the front runners in both parties? Have both parties lost their soul?

NEW YORK (CNN) – The battle for the soul of the Democratic Party is under way. And the outcome of this battle will likely not be determined by any one of the rising number of candidates for the party’s 2008 presidential nomination, but rather by the Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill.

The House of Representatives passed important legislation designed, at least politically, to focus on the needs of our middle class, beset by stagnating wages, failing public education, destructive so-called free trade policies, skyrocketing health care costs, out-of-control illegal immigration and the soaring price of higher education.

So in Congress’ self-proclaimed first 100 hours, speaker Nancy Pelosi delivered on her promise to have the House pass bills raising the federal minimum wage, cutting interest rates on student loans and helping bring down the cost of prescription drugs. But none of that legislation has passed the Senate.

The ascension of the so-called Lou Dobbs Democrats in the November election gave hope to many that our representatives and senators were awakening to the need to represent the largest single group of voters in the country, 150 million working men and women and their families. The reality is, however, corporate America and special interests still dominate our legislative and electoral process.

A successful Democratic candidate running for his or her party’s nomination is as dependent as any Republican seeking the nomination of his party, and $100 million is the price of the ticket. Who has the money? Corporate America and Wall Street, of course

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/dobbs-will-the-democrats-save-their-souls

Pamsparkle
I hate to disagree with you but the almighty didn't put our government in place we stupid americans did. Number one, God doesn't make mistakes and number two, God would never take credit for this total screw-up we call Washington!

separation of families
There is also this idiocy of the cruel separation of families if they are deported or what ever. I am separated from my family. My parents live 900 miles away out of necessity. And I felt bad when I had to drive away after moving them there. But guess what? The sun rose the next morning and Mom and Dad have been doing fine for almost ten years now.

Families have been separated by necessity of work or profession for centuries. This is largely dependent upon trade and profession. Sailors, contract workers, migrant farm workers all separate from their families to make a living.

So this whining and crying about separated families is a bunch of hooie. And who made the decision to separate from their family in the first place? The illegal immigrant. And now we are supposed to feel sorry for his choice. I don't.

Dr. K

I am alarmed
that some of our conservatives seemed to be leaning toward a favorable response to this immigration bill. Hugh Hewitt, Fred Barnes, and fake conservative Bill O'Reilly and the Wall Street Jounal editorial page. I could name more but you get the point and these are people who have the ear of the public.

Read between the lines
Thomas:

If you read between the lines, the intent of the bill is for Bush to look like he is accomplishing something without the average American figuring out he is screwing them over again. All he wants to do is to make the future coming of the North American Union happen faster.
All the Dem.'s want is more poor voters to vote for them, especially ones too stupid to realize they are being held down by the Dem. party they will vote for. As for Ted Kennedy, who knows what thoughts go through his pickled brain. Maybe the entire country will be better off when there are no more Kennedy's and Busch's screwing it up.

To Loyal Democrat
Did you not read one word of Dr. Sowell’s column? He debunks every lie you’re perpetuating on the matter by just using a shred common economic sense. This is a typical leftist tactic: accuse those who disagree with you of having impure motivations for only liberals can have good intentions. That garbage won’t fly here, so go back to your socialist enclave and bask in the glow of your self righteous pieties there. What a price the rest of us have to pay so that some people can feel more non-judgmental than thou or simply affirm within their own little coterie that they are one of Us instead of one of Them.

voice of reason...
God is Love, but He is also Principle. The idea that compassion trumps everything else is not love. Love has 'rules' and we all know this from our lives. Mexico is a corrupt, but wealthy society and for us to be the Big Fat Enablers by supporting their continued corruption has nothing to do with love. We can show all the charity and care in the world (and we do more than any other country), but allowing the continuation of this invasion in the name of 'compassion' has nothing good about it. I taught in a school of 99% illegals..they have no love for this country.. their hearts and loyalty was Mexico. We should let our country, this divine idea be turned into a bankrupt one that destroys the lives of good American citizens because of the greed and corruption of Mexico and the greed and corruption of US businesses and political 'leaders?' You name me one principled idea that is the cause of this fiasco.
There isn't one. Again..God isn't just Love. He's Principal and Truth. Compassion is not above justice, fairness and other divine qualities.
I'm so sick of this bogus argument. It's the same tactic that the devil used in the wilderness with Jesus. He quoted scripture..he manipulated and used perversion to try and trick Jesus. But Jesus saw through the words, into the Truth of the words. You need to do the same thing. It's nothing more than perversion of Love that is being touted with these destructive and down right evil arguments.

My Canadian Friends say...
That we are Americans are nuts over this issue. They enforce their border pretty seriously. (I live 20 miles from Windsor, CA) While they are a compassionate group in Canada, they DO decide who gets in, and enforce it. They have a history of letting in "political refugees". but had a "wake up call" last year when 17 Jihadists wanted to blow up the Parliament Building.

Sowell's last line is perfectly right, the United States needs to control the border. In medicine there is a term for uncontrolled, destructive growth. It's callled Cancer. Remember what this disease does to the host's body.

I know...
it's 'principle' not 'principal'.!

And guys!!!
Loyal Democrat is our resident Mark Twain...

Sowell is mostly right....
Mr. Sowell,

I would suggest that "jobs Americans won't do" is a matter of degree in the sense that there may be some Americans who will do agricultural work (for example) at a price similar to what the illegals will do it for, but not enough Americans to do the job.

As prices of labor (and most other things) are set based on the marginal worker, this has a big effect on the entire system.

Also, I think you need to break down to a lower level than just "agriculture". For example, in nearby Greeley, CO there are meat packing plants that are basically 100% Mexican, with a huge percentage illegal. Those are jobs that Americans will not do, at least not at that price.

If you're going to criticize this part of the bill (and the bill certainly deserves massive criticism), you should at least admit that eliminating the illegals without simultaneously increasing the number of visas available for legal workers would substantially increase all Americans' costs on things we buy every day, particularly food.

Boston Tea Party Time
If we can't rid the country of these traitors in Congress then it's time for a revolution like the old days......Why masses of Americans are not surrounding the Capitol with pitchforks and torches is beyond me. THIS attempt to ignore the will of the American people and destroy the country will not stand.

voice of reason
* CHARITY Is GIVEN not demanded

* SACRIFICE is AMERICAN LIVES given to
protect other countries from
harm,from illegal invasion

* HELP YOUR FELLOW MAN- who is your fellow man ?

* LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR-
teach/require them
to abide by the rule
of law ,of their neighbors,
or stay home

Shameless
Shameless Plug...Memorial Day is important!! click my name and have a read.

Have you heard the answer yet?

Mt 23:23 -
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone



Its been given over and over again.

There is no "moral" justification to be a law breaker.
No moral justification to use fraudulent Id's, to lie about your being here lawfully, to take away from lawful citizens the services you have no right to take.

You think Jesus accepts crime?

What a twisted idea of morals that takes to confuse this issue.

Jesus is very much in support of seperating the law breakers from the law abiding.

You ever read the bible and how Jesus supported the Law of Moses?


ITS IMMORAL TO BE A LAW BREAKER.

Just a few of the scriptures from the New Testament about OBEYING THE LAW.

These people coming from Mexico illegally are all CRIMINALS. period.


Mt 5:17 -
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:18 - Show Context
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.







Mt 12:5 -
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?




Mt 23:23 -
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Lu 2:22 -
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;


Lu 2:24 -
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Lu 2:27 -
And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Lu 2:39 -
And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.



Lu 10:26 -
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?



Lu 16:17 -
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Ro 2:12 -
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ro 2:23 -
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Ro 3:31 -
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


THE LAW HAS NO POWER AGAINST A PERSON ONLY IF THEY OBEY THE LAW.


Ro 7:12 -
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1Ti 1:8 -
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

1Jo 3:4 -
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law


Its immoral to support the law breakers.

Jas 2:9 -
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


Its sin to respect the Mexican law breakers all the while using the same law to keep others from Europe, Russia and all other Nations out by Immigration Law.

Its hypocritical to give amnesty to some law breakers and not all law breakers.

Completely IMMORAL to not require ALL to be subject to the Common Laws of Legislated and Legal set boundries.

Only a morally confused person supports this crime wave coming here illegally from Mexico.




VoR
"Here's my question: Can religious conservatives make a 'moral' case against illegal immigrants?"

Yes, easy. Here is the choice:

1) Let in all these ilegals, thereby degrading the life of every man, woman, and child in the United States because of the enormous cost of giving these people their "free stuff" Democrats have deemed they are "entitled" to, or

2) Force them to return to their home nation and work to reform their government, thereby making the lives of every man, woman, and child in Mexico better.

The choice is simple, even for the religious conservatives.

Realist at 8.47 AM
You are dead on target on all counts.
Your comments about the Alamo, your look at actual mexican immigration laws, and the parallel to the cuban boat people are all completely accurate.

Stay the course. We like and accept the good ones, the honest ones, and those looking for a new life. The rest can line up for slots for those who are allowed to TEMPORARILY work for a very few years.

And Kennedy and crew can go back to their sailboats or whatever. We adopted the Bushes as Texans and look where it has left us. Semper Fi.

Congress has no credibility...
because the enforcement of current law is sparse and uncertain. Why should we consider new laws when the old laws are being overlooked by the Administration.

What we need is an end to congress writing new laws. Laws, as always, have consequences for law abiding citizens. The criminals don't care and apparently neither does Jorge Bushe.

Viva la Jorge!

RKaminsky
I don't know about anyone else, but I would be willing to pay higher prices on some things to preserve my way of life. I am first and formost an american and I hold my country and its way of life dear. Nuff said!

Immigration
Our present normal immigration quotas are being ignored. Illegal immigration is being encouraged by Congress by way of all the perks these illegal immigrants receive. Subsidize something and you get more of it!The benefits are twofold - the immigrants get their perks and the Congressman gets their vote. The average American Citizen gets the shaft.

disgusted
I am so disgusted with this bill. Where is the incentive for US citizens to obey the law, and where is the incentive in the bill for illegals to become American?

Its immoral to justify crime
All who support the breaking of Lawfully Legislated Law are immoral people.

Love does not excuse crime, it judges crime.


Jesus Himself cast out law breakers.

Mt 21:12 -
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,


God is moral and He has made Judgement based in LAW


Ga 3:19 -
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,


1Ti 1:9 -
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


Nothing moral in law breaking and Jesus Christ Himself has taught that its sin to be a law breaker.

1Ti 1:9 -
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


Its the illegals who are immoral

Immigration/Bigotry..
The other day I made the point that their is an element of racism fueling that anti-illegal immigration argument of the right that it's all about "breaking the law". I also made the point that the right sees immigrants legal or illegal as a new "underclass", who in their own words are a "drag" on the system, fail to assimilate,
wont learn english and whose males are prone to commiting criminal acts against whites.

I was lambasted as playing the "race card" and called ignorant & stupid for bringing this up.
that it's strictly a "law and order" issue.

I say anyone who says race isnt a large part of this argument is stupid, in denial and ignorant.

witness Southerners comments above:

"Not only will America be lost if this Amnesty passes, the GOP will be finished as well. The Democrats will tell some more of their lies and they will all run to the Dems, just like Blacks, Homo's and other undesirables do. We don't need another group who can't think for themselves overflowing our borders."

Thinker 9.26 am
Kathy McKee has written an absolutely beautiful piece on the immigration problem. She obviously should have a position in a much more influential paper, as if any of the big ones would allow a piece like this.

Hurray for Protect Arizona Now.

Illegal alien invaders
I want to support those (above) who have suggested we prepare for revolution. There is no one looking out for us. We have to look out for ourselves. Our system of government, which used to work, no longer works. Instead of strong leadership we have nothing but incompetence.

We can't win a war, we can't control our borders, we can't (so they tell us) deport 12 million people, we can't protect ourselves from terrorists, we can't have English as our official language, we can't protect our American culture from becoming Latinized, Arabized or some other -ized.

It's time to examine some alternatives to this intolerable status quo. Let's work on it. In the meantime, ARM YOURSELVES.

How many illegal migrants are there
The Houston Chronicle in the mid seventies (70's) refered to 4,000 per night coming accross of which approx 1,000 were being bused back across for another try.

In other words, they all made it sooner or later. Don't be fooled. There are actually approx. 25,000,000 just from LATIN AMERICA. That is no where near the total number because there are uncounted millons in other nationalities from the far east, Africa, the mideast and eastern Europe.

Don't get me started because others in this column say things well enough. I might get unpleasant.

By the way, less sniping and azzs slaping among some of the regulars. Let's stay with the facts.

Leftangle
I pride myself on being a person who is not biggoted towards any race even the NVA which was very hard for me to overcome. I welcome any person of any race, color or creed to this country as long as they come here legally. For me this is not an issue of race but an issue of, as I said earlier, preservation of my way of life. The original immigration laws were drafted in a time that the US needed bodies to fill this great nation up and get terrible working conditions filled, but now those kinds of "vacancies" don't exist and the people comming in are not comming to better this country, but bring it down and that I will resist as long as I am able.

Tana: That was great!
"Ted Kennedy: Celebrating over 40 years of lying to the American people regarding immigration. No one does it better."

A classic! What a slogan. The logo can be an empty bottle of Chivas next to an empty glass with melting ice in the bottom.






morality and illegal immigration
To right angle - I am not an expert, but Rabbi Daniel Lapin is. He addressed this in a Commentary on his website in April last year. He has also spoken on his radio program about religious leaders who espouse amnesty to the detriment of legal residents and citizens. He said something about these people being overcome by only compassion, and that this is tyranny towards those who follow the law. He said that on a micro level, children who are raised this way become brats. I think that the Bible says something in the OT about not being more favorable to the poor than to others. It has to do with justice.

Voice of Reason: A moral case against il
That is a very thought provoking question if I accept, as I do, that it was sincerely poised. I am not sure I would qualify as a ‘religious conservative’ in your view, or mine for that matter, but in thinking about it I don’t think it really makes any difference. In fact, the opposite question, leading to the same discussion, could just as well be asked of ‘religious liberals’, i.e. can ‘religious liberals’ make a moral case for illegal immigrants? That being the case, we can drop the political characterization and reduce the two questions to one; ‘What would be the religious view of illegal immigration?’.

Religions, as I understand them, do not necessarily provide pat answers for all situations. That is clearly evidenced by the many opposing factions that can all find justification for their positions by selectively quoting from religious text. At its heart religion is a humble not an arrogant frame of mind. The religious do not, or should not if they are sincere in their beliefs, presume that they and their particular religious doctrine hold all the answers. Moral questions are often complex, contradictory and downright messy. That is why, in times of moral dilemma those who sincerely believe do not pray for outcomes, nor for absolute answers but, instead, pray for guidance. Belief in a creator is precisely a belief in the limitations of man and, therefore, a faith that those limitations are overcome elsewhere.

Doing something with good intentions does not quarantine a moral outcome. Providing refuge for some may, at some point, destroy the viability of the refuge for all.
You say that the majority of illegal immigrants are ‘hardworking, mostly Christian, family-oriented 'economic refugees'’. I expect that assumption is true but caution that it is an assumption none-the-less albeit based on our well-intentioned faith in the essential goodness of most people. At the same time, it is also clear that some illegal immigrants are not coming here to partake of our hard won freedom and prosperity but to exploit and destroy it.

The operative word here is ‘illegal’ and there are, in fact, legal alternatives. That is why, in a previous comment, I made the point that I question the sincerity of some who advocate for illegal immigrants because they never speak about doing anything in regards to the current legal immigration alternative. To the extent that we legitimately need immigrants, to the extent that we can accommodate them, to the extent that many seek entry into this country for good and just cause and to the extent that for them our own values dictate that we help, we should reform our legal immigration process.

Repeating another point previously made, legal immigration at least gives us some opportunity to educate our new citizens as to the subtleties, nuances and complexities of our system of self-government and their responsibilities to it. Self-government of, by and for the people can not be sustained by a citizenry that does not understand it. Too many native born Americans do not understand it. We don’t need more.

For what it is worth, that is how this conservative views illegal immigration from a ‘religious’ perspective.



Vox of reason: Moral reason? Sure!
As a taxpayer who's shelling out mucho bucks to try to prop up the infrastructure that is being devastated by the strain put on it by illegal aliens, I resent having my hard-earned tax dollars STOLEN. There's a commandment against theft; they're breaking it.


eastlake joe: a response..
thanks for your response.

while you may hold a non-racist viewpoint on illegal immigration there are many that do and are hiding behind the "it's about law and order"
argument to disguise their bigotry. I hope you read the disgusting comment of the poster "Southerner" above because it's typical of
this viewpoint.

while you may feel that you are more interested in preserving your way of life, the immigrants
legal or illegal, I dont think are here to as you say "bring down this country". I believe they are fleeing the abject poverty that exist in their countries in order to upgrade to a better way of life here in the states. to many of
these people a minimum wage job here in the states is a gold mine compared to the meager per capita yearly income in their countries. you should think about that.

easlake joe: a response.
thanks for your response.

while you may take a non-racist view on illegal immigration there are many that do as witnessed by the disgusting comments of the poster Southerner above. he is typical of that mindset that hides his bigotry behind the "its about law and order" argument coming from the right.


also while you may think it's all about "perserving your way of life", I dont think immigrants legal or illegal are coming here to "bring this country down", as you say.

I think they are coming here to get away from the abject poverty they are experiencing in their native lands. to many of these people a minimum wage job is like a gold mind compared to the meager yearly per capita income in their homelands. you need to think about that.

Left Angle: Again with the "racism"
Dude. You tried that yesterday and got nowhere. The law's the law, Themis (Lady Justice) is blindfolded, and it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with millions of scofflaws destroying our country by their presence, not their race.

A disproportionate number, based on population percentage, of the prisoners in custody are illegals. Do you suggest we release enough of them to bring that percentage back in line? That would be the proper thing to do if all we're concerned about is being "racially sensitive".

Or maybe we should simply take the law as being what it is, and enforce it. That would be a new idea, on this issue.

BTW, what are you worrying about, anyway? Based on past performance the only thing about this new proposal that will actually become reality is the amnesty provision. Seems to me you'd be all in favor of that.

I am alarmed
Loco, I agree. On the second day after we have learned there is a new Immigration deal in the making; without document being published and details known, Bill O'Reilly "reluctantly endorsed" this deal. This speed is absolutely amazing, there must be some triggers for that. Nobody pressed him to the wall, could wait a few more days. He's the greater spinner today, this fake "traditionalist." Maybe he needs Latino viewers preparing himself for the future. It seems everybody's obsessed with Latino votes these days.
Add another friend of patriotic Americans, better than Bill, but still... Last night Mr. Hannity interviewed Senator Graham of SC. The latter is one of the "behind closed door conspirators," BCDC for short; pronounced Bee Cee, Dee Cee.
Hannity addressed the Senator as "my friend." Sean, you should be careful with friends like that, because one not very distant day you will be replaced by a Spanish speaking guy in the sombrero. So as a friend, Sean asked soft questions. But the most amazing show was produced by the Senator himself. Looking straight into the camera Senator Graham told American people that the only reason for the naturalization of 20 to 60 million Mexicans in the US is his worry that amongst them may be people bent on committing bloody terrorist acts against Americans whom he deeply loves. So to identify the bad seeds he offered this reform. Some other worriers joined Mr. Graham, also deeply concerned about possible terrorist activities in America. According to Senator, he worked very hard day and night, of course with his new friends to protect American people. Although he looked rested and well groomed I believe him since American Senators, especially Republicans with high moral standards, do not lie. I want Sean to ask Senator Graham what terrorists he's talking about, the recent NJ guys who entered this country illegally 20 years ago, in the ages 1 and 4? Must be transplanted with timing device that explodes 20 years later or activated by one of those triggers in the Immigration Bill.
Besides, the Bush administration assured us on many occasions that thanks to them and their war in Iraq there were no terrorist attacks in the US since 9/11. But Senator Graham is still worried sick, his love of the American people wakes him up in the middle of the night; he lost weight (which is a good thing), he's getting gray hair... The only thing that can help the Senator is the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform." According to that act an illegal immigrant should present the proof of innocence: a paper stated that he/she is a good person, good employee (best if employee of the month), good neighbor; document must be signed by someone or other, it's not important, except by the bloody (sorry, just a typo), blood relative.
Neither asked Sean-a-good-boy whether there was any compensation for Senator Graham for his Herculean effort: Big Business donations to his election funds, or at least the appreciation of the potential Republican Latino voters, whatever the case. It seems to me that every Republican politician and even simple minded bureaucrat, like the Security Czar Chertoff, for example, now lives for one purpose and one purpose only: to serve and protect...no, no, not America, you stupid, poor Mexican people exploited by rich, insensitive, bigoted Americans. Yes, bigots like you, reader, regardless of who you are, because if you don't agree with Senator Graham you must be a bigot. By definition. Most likely Republican bigot. See, Senator Graham wants to build bridges over to the Democrat Party where everyone is a decent Mexicans loving humane human being. Senator assigned himself to a position of project manager; McCain volunteered for the office of the Public Relations director and Ted Kennedy?...Ted Kennedy?... Ted will provide whisky for the winners! From the taxes collected from the adorable hardworking peace-loving family-oriented making-America-great Geraldo folks from the South. It's all about humanity, stupid!

The end is getting nearer
Having taught (conservative) history and politics for 30+ years in a Long Island public high school and being witness, but not a party to, the indoctrination known as "multi-culturalism" (diversity) in our public education system I have come to the inescapable conclusion that this ongoing balkanization is destroying this once great country. Assimilation, the melting pot, if you will is dead and its death ultimately means the death of what "America" once represented. The sickening emphasis on ethnic identity, misplaced compassion for people invading our nation, political correctness, religious, racial, sexual and ethnic enclaves and a total lack of conviction and courage by our elected representatives portends the end of a once great nation. Whether we speak of the war against Islamofacism, immigration, abortion, taxes, et.al., everything is seen through the ugly prism of some hyphenated group (African-American, Gay-American, Mexican-American,Islamic-Americans, etc.). Everybody has a grievance to bear and it is usaully claimed that the roots of those grievances rest in that group's historic victimization by, of courses, the white man and Anglo culture. Now, once more the feckless politicians in D.C. are again trying to pull more wool over our eyes and even if they fail with this bill they will not stop in their efforts to permit the slow death of "Americanism." By choice, my wife and I opted not to have children and I know that I denied myself a certain amount of self-fufillment by doing so, however when I see where this country is headed and how quickly we are going there I also feel that I've made a wise choice. 30+ years from now this country will no longer be recognizable as the United States I grew up in. This trend began with the inception of the USA as a welfare state and has grown and permeated every aspect of our culture and it sickens me. Mr. Lincoln said it best: "Whence shall we expect the approach of danger? Shall some trans-Atlantic giant step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never!...If destruction be our lot we ourselves must be its author. As a nation of free men we will live forever or die by suicide." We are witness to a suicide.

Response to Voice of Reason
"voice_of_reason writes: Wednesday, May, 23, 2007 6:57 AM
Enforce the law ..
Those who take the 'enforce the law' position on this subject make an excellent defense of the anti-illegal-immigration position.

However, the laws and systems to which they refer are man-made; those protections are in place, ostensibly for pragmatic reasons.

Can someone offer a consistent MORAL argument, that a religious conservative might make on the anti-illegal-immigration side?

Doesn't it run counter to the religious principles of:

* charity
* sacrifice
* helping your fellow man
* loving your neighbor as yourself

Can someone help me out of this moral dilemma?"

The reason the illegal immigrants are coming is is that they want what we have: freedom and opportunity, but also jobs, medicine, welfare, schooling etc.

They are typically willing accept a lower wage because they are illegal and because it is far more than what they can get where they came from. This hurts lower class Americans by depressing wages and keeping people in poverty, in slums and ghettos. Is that moral?

They frequently come with the express goal of medical care. They pay nothing but make us pay for it. Taking something to which you have no right is stealing. Is that moral? Are they repentant? The Bible requires you to honor your debts.

Many illegals are on the welfare roll (many thanks to giving birth to a child while they are here illegally making the child a legal US citizen, don't get me started). This is a compulsory tax on American citizens, rewarding illegal behavior. Is that moral?

Their children must be schooled at our expense. millions of children are being added to the schools causing overcrowding, plus demanding they be taught in their native language, preventing them from assimilating to our culture. What are the biggest costs to school board budgets? That's right, spending tens of millions of dollars on new schools to ease overcrowding. Who pays for that?

These are all mandatory costs for the US taxpayer, not voluntary. The government should not be in the business of charity. That is the churches' business. (Couldn't you just feel the love of FEMA during Katrina?)

None of the illegals I've seen are the least bit sorry for what they've been doing. Forgiveness without repentance is ridiculous (I'm probably starting something here), but God doesn't forgive me without my confession of sins and repentance.

The motivating factor behind illegal immigration coveting our neighbor's goods, instead of fixing their own system.

Exodus 20:17
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or {donkey}, nor anything else that belongs to him."
Note: townhall wouldn't let me put the proper translation in ;-)

Obeying the law is not racism
Loyal Democrat writes: Wednesday, May, 23, 2007 1:41 AM
We owe the illegals our hospitality.
It is the right of every citizen in the world to inhabit any part of the planet that they wish. And it is the obligation of those that reside in the desired place to take care of those who come there and accommodate them as much as possible.

To reject newcomers and eschew the obligation to support them simply indicates a high level of xenophobia and rascism. There can be no other reason for rejecting those who wish to migrate.
-------------------------------------
Please provide evidence I owe anyone anything; much less we.

Just because you continue to project your own racist xenophobia doesn't mean your shortfalls rule my life. Criminals are owed time in jail and swift deportation for their family members that are also here illegally. All the parents that endangered their children in this process should have their children assigned as wards of the government and be permanently barred from entering the USA.

Stop excusing criminal behavior because you are an idiot.

Fivo: Loyal Democrat uses satire
and farce to charicature liberalism.

Most newbies fall for it, so don't feel bad. As you can see, he's VERY good at it.


If politicians are already pandering to
the Hispanic population, who will show the will after we have another 12 million voters on the rolls?

Republican voters can hold themselves partially responsible for the current mess as well. Isolationists and xenophobes from our own party put strict limits on legal immigration. Instead of receiving legal immigrants from Eastern Europe, the void had been filled by illegal immigrants from Mexico.

misery loves company

I'm quite happy to see so many people finally pi$$ed off. Now you know how Libertarians feel all the time.

Welcome aboard friends.

And to everyone who still thinks Ron Paul is a nut, read the link Sam posted concerning Dr. No's view on immigration. It's the second post on this thread. Enjoy!

fraud too
One might note that where California's border w mexico is one third in length to that of Texas', three times as many Mexicans choose Cali for the simple reason of its generous entitlement programs.

I would mind far less the exodus if the give-aways were nil and English were the language of the State(no more driving tests in 17 different languages). Such a policy would reduce the influx immediately, though this in itself is not worrisome, but you could be assured that those who still come have the great American character-building traits we do worry about. Pandering to illegals is about the sorriest political face-slap these sorry excuses for congressmen could hand us.

Hammering away at the thick skulls
"Is that decision supposed to be made by anyone in Mexico who wants to come here?"

Why not?
or as they say in Spanish, Porque no?

Its certainly not a decision to made by Sowell

The decision is to be made by the American people many of whom like myself know right from wrong. Speaking for myself I am 100% sure that it ABSOLUTELY MORALLY WRONG to deport anyone that would rather be here, I continue to say SHAME ON THOSE CALLING FOR DEPORTATION.

I picture these same people on judgement day looking to get into the kingdom of righteousness and God rounding them up and deporting them

but thats just me

Oh and I have to say, as far as those that talk abouto LAtin Americans in this country speaking ENglish versus speaking spanish.

I would say it would be nice if Latin Americans that live in the U.S. did a little bit better job of making it a priority to learn English, and speak English when they conduct business in the U.S. I know that many are making that effort, but perhaps they can make a somewhat stonger effort, Yeah that would be a good idea.



As far as how Sowell compares the current Latin American immigrants to past immigrants, I think as usual he is being grossly unfair to the current Latin American Immigrants, and I think he grossly overstates how well previous generations of immigrants assimilated.
It helps his point of view to pretend that previous immigrants americanzied themselves quickly and expeditiously while pretending that there are not millions of Latin american immigrants taking english language classes and making an effort to assimilate.

He really has to ignore the provocative language of groups like La Raza.


Stop judging them by La Raza, La Raza is not any kind of indicator of the majority of Latin Americans,

Just like the NAACP or foul-mouthed African -American rap artists who dont make any kind of effort to "assimilate" are not any kind of indicator of the thoughts and ideas of Dr THomas Sowell.




WAKE UP voice of reason!!!
Okay, several commenters have given great answers already to your moral argument on illegal immigration. Yeah, they were born into a potentially worse situation, and yes, it would be wonderful to have the whole world become a utopia where everything is free and we're all zillionaires.

But no, this is a harsh world for some, rather easy for others. But that doesn't give me the right to envy and covet what someone else has. Someone ALWAYS has more than you do -- prettier, smarter, nicer home, more money, etc... And someone always has it worse. Yes, people in many parts of Africa, Asia, etc. have worse living conditions and much more oppression than Mexicans.

What is the purpose of this life if not to grow, to learn joy through suffering, prove yourself faithful to God (or moral principles) in any situation? If you believe in an afterlife, in this life as a test of our goodness, then you understand we are not here to have it easy, party all night, remain spiritually stagnant.

It sucked for Viktor Frankl (sp?) to be in a Nazi concentration camp. But he had an incredible, positive attitude. I wish I were as admirable in those ways. So would I rather be a person of great character like Frankl, or someone who is always asking for freebies, running away from making my own community a better place?

When you reward those who are demanding what is not theirs, who wish to glut themselves on the labor and charity of others, then you are enabling bad habits. It's like parents who do not teach their children to be responsible, who let them sit around all day playing video games. Does it really HELP those kids when they are given all earthly needs for nothing? What kind of character are they developing? What do they have to work for?

As far as being charitable, helping the poor and needy, well YES, I believe that is vital to being a good, decent human being. I am proud to belong to one of those many churches that is quietly and constantly giving money, food, clothing, medical care, schooling, etc. all over the world. We set up accounts for poor folk in other nations to get a better education, job training, and all that. I contribute in the modest ways I can, too. Our church does this to help people better themselves wherever they are -- to "bloom where they are planted."

NOTE: Unlike the government, our donations to the church are voluntary, not confiscated from our paychecks. You can't force charity.

As others have mentioned, Mexico has a wealth of resources and could be a great place, rich with culture, etc. It has already produced artists, writers, thinkers, soccer players, cute actors. There are vestiges of ancient civilizations and a certain spirituality.

I mean, what does California have that Mexico does not? What is so magical about land north of the border? Is it that the original settlers dug in, worked by the sweat of their brow and made the desert flourish? Why can that not be done in Mexico? Wouldn't it be great for all nations of the world to blossom and become great rather than crowd everyone into the US? There is untapped wealth all over the world.

We've seen how Mexicans can take to the street and demand changes... they could make Mexico better if they wanted. They could embrace what is good about their culture and get rid of the corruption.

Instead, they bring a lawless culture to us. I've read Spanish-language newspapers in which illegals complain about how our laws are just 'badly written' -- they are not breaking a law, because the law itself is invalid.

The other articles in this same paper were all about this or that illegal caught stealing SS#s, molesting kids, etc.

Sure, 'good' people come along in the flood of illegals, but when the culture is primarily one of lawlessness and disrespect, then I don't want that in my country. I don't invite those people into my home. That's not selfishness, it is self preservation.

Now here's a question for you:

Do you open your home to everyone off the street who is in need? Do you lock your doors? When you see a dusty old guy holding up a sign asking for money at the freeway on-ramp, do you let him into your car and take him home?

I wish that I could do more of that, actually -- be like the Good Samaritan in the Bible.

BUT -- is that safe these days? As a woman alone, or with my baby, is that a risk I want to take? Are you doing it at the peril of your family? For example, here in Utah recently a nice family with kids took in a young Hispanic man (illegal). They gave him food, shelter, clothing and whatever else.

This illegal ended up sexually molesting the daughter of that family!!!!! Now, was that charitable for these parents to put their daughter in this situation? Was it smart to bring a stranger into their home?

And even if the beggar IS kind and gentle, can my husband and I support another family and still keep our own family under a roof and fed? We ain't all millionaires here. No money trees, just trying to keep afloat, paying $600 a month for health insurance, not to mention other 'basics'.

When charity is given at the expense of others in need, it is not charity. Charity begins at home, then we do our best to be generous and kind wherever else we can.

Moral dillemma for voice of reason?
...from 625am: "If you are religious, how can you be upset about the higher taxes that result from our generosity towards our less fortunate brethren?

Can someone help me sort out this seeming inconsistency?"

The inconsistency is government intervention. Only liberty produces true charity.

One of my favorite quotes is from Dr. F.A. Harper in his book 'Liberty: A Path to It's Recovery' - "The virtue of compassion and charity cannot be sired by the vice of theivery."

What does that mean? It means we reject the notion of Karl Marx that government mandates "from each according to ability, to each according to need." That is not charity, that is theivery.
Why is it theivery? It is theivery because government lays claim (taxes) to what others own and produce. When forced to do this, taxpayers lose the concept of charity with the attitude that 'government will take care of it.'

I ask you then, who knows what best to do with what they own? The person giving charity of their own free will and property? Or the government who steals others property and then decides best who deserves it?

As Dr. Harper postulates: "If 'selfishness' is to be charged against one who demands the right to that which he has prodiced, selfishness of a far less virtuous order should also be charged against the non-produce who takes the income and wealth from another against his will.
....Is is selfishness to control the disposition of that which you have produced, but unselfish to control the disposition of that which you have taken from those who produce it?"

I hope 'voice of reason' will seriously consider the portent of those wise words.

Compassion
inre:voice of reason:

Allowing over 2 million LEGAL immigrants yearly IS compassion, billions in foreign aid IS compassion, food banks and shelters IS compassion. We do moree for the WORLD in aid than all countries combined. I'm sick of being called a racist or heartless, neither apply. Church going conservatives give MORE money and MORE time to charities than anyone in the world, so please stop with not enough compassion.
Your scenerio for the Fort Dix six just applied for coming illegally and obeying the law and having family.... until they got caught. I'm sure with the influx of illegal muslims, this won't be the only case. You cannot look at this on a case by case basis, of course there are stories that will make you sad. The people who entered illegally, knew the risk, if they were caught 10 years ago that would make a difference? How about at the border? How about MY rights as a citizen? Why is the right of someone else MORE important than the rights of citizens? I have an idea, why don't these people get together and protest the Mexican government? That might actually be to hard, so instead they'll come here and try to shake down the greatest, most generous nation in history into giving them what they want. Enough already!!!

Dr. Sowell is a voice of reason
Thank you for making sense! Laws must be enforced. Anything short of this is the start of anarchy. I've taught my sons that there are consequences to breaking the law and to repect the office of president. I pray we can recover before they are old enough to realize the mockery we've (Washington and LaRaza) made of this great nation.

As a born again Christian, I agree w/ sbmcgraw. His points are excellent and well written!

Forrest: Loco, amigo!
Anyone who wants to be here should be allowed to stay?

Do you feel the same about any thief who manages to break into your house? He wants to be there, so he should be allowed to stay? If not, why not?

BTW, bud, I've read that worldwide there are about a BILLION people who would be happy to break our laws to become illegal aliens here. How about them? Want all them here, too? If not, why not?


Judy
They call themselves migrants as does our President. They are migrating here. Emigration denotes legal entry to the host country as does immigration. They are simply migrating, regardless of laws.


Rule of Law?

Actively, consistently, continuously enforcing existing laws will send the message that we are serious about our laws. Changing them to accomodate people breaking them sends the opposite message. And not just to those already here. Millions are waiting to see which tack we take. Amnesty will set off a stampede like we have not seen before. Enforcement will start the flow in the other direction as the jobs and benefits dry up.Those pushing for amnesty are for surrendering to the demands of the illegal aliens and their employers, abandoning the rule of law and surrendering our sovereignty. We should not change the laws to suit those breaking them.

Who Are The Bigots?

A word about The National Council of the Race (La Raza in Spanish). I use the English translation for clarity as most do not know what it means. Before anyone wants to call me a racist, I did not name the organization, the organizers did. For me this issue is not about race at all. I don't care where an illegal alien is from or what color they may happen to be, it is the fact that they entered our country illegally that motivates me to oppose amnesty. I know and like people from everywhere.

"For those of the Race everything. For those not of the Race nothing!" (Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada).

This is the motto of The National Council of The Race

brianR
Not point responding to forrest. Libocrates have raised mindless rhetoric to a science; namely reject everything out-of-hand, toss incendiary comments like rice at a wedding and never stick around long enough to answer any of their absurd claims. As elRushie says, they cannot win in the arena of ideas. Regards

voice of reason

a) Following the law - like the Ten Commandments.

b) Wanting to put an end to the needless deaths of "ILLEGALS" taking plce in the hot, arid conditions of the desert Southwest seems a very Christian thing to do.
Moreso in fact than to allow these same criminals who COVET my a$$, my job etc. to continue risking suicide, and with so little to gain should we secure our borders.

Pdm: Yeah, you're right
But it IS fun to stick logic in their blind eye and twist the stick!



Brianr
"Do you feel the same about any thief who manages to break into your house? He wants to be there, so he should be allowed to stay? If not, why not?

BTW, bud, I've read that worldwide there are about a BILLION people who would be happy to break our laws to become illegal aliens here. How about them? Want all them here, too? If not, why not?"

(ignoring the loco amigo comment and focus on the "bud" comment, note how important it is to ignore provocative language, I cant STRESS that enough)

Brian I adressed part of this yesterday, the house analogy sucks to put it mildly. A more congruent analogy would be to compare America to a neighborhood. And immigrants to people moving into a neighborhood not a house.

as far as thiefs, a thief is a thief. Thiefs come in all ethnicities. I would not treat a latin american thief any more harshly then I would treat a hungarian american thief or a turkish american thief, or a luxemburgundian american thief, or a Brazilian thief, or a um , you get the idea, and I woul dnot treat a thief any more harshly just becuase they are new to the country. I would use the same standard in imposing punishement that I would towards someone thta has been here all their life.
ANything less would be unjust. surely you see the wisdom in that approach.


Your second paragraph reflects either dishonesty or stupidity, maybe later I will have the energy to deal with it,


and by the way what the hell is libocrates, is that the gay piano player




ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS!!!
SHIP ALL ILLEGALS, man, woman, child, grandparent, aunt, uncle, SHIP THEM ALL HOME!!! If every local law enforcement agency enforced the current laws and put all illegals on a Greyhound...or hey, how about using the school buses that will be idle this summer...and get them out of the country NOW!!!!

We are law-abiding citizens and it truly irks me to see these criminals getting away with taking our country away from us!

Dr. Sowell
Please keep this topic "front and center"

Forrest: Hahahahaa!
The only reason you think the house analogy sucks is there's no way you can frame an answer that makes any sense!

Very lame, bud.




My one hope...

...rests with the "triggers" that we are being told (actually "sold" is a better word for it) will ONLY kick-in if certain criteria are met.

On the one hand, we are told the "illegal applicant" must go through an extensive background check. And if said amnesty applicant has been found guilty of a felony the process STOPS there!

Too bad for us, the framers of the bill have put the onus on US to do the background checks "WITHIN 24 hours" of the paperwork being started or the applicant is IN. Felon or not!!

What I would like to know is this - How many of these "applicants" can The National Council of the Race (La Raza in Spanish, the racists in plain English) produce at once to crash that part of the system immediately.
If they could move the entire population of Mexico north, you and I know they would. Instant victory over the "triggers"!

The true last hope is that this "bill" is just a ploy to get the majority of the illegals currently here to turn themselves in. Breaking into the United States was a felony, therefore, none of them will qualify. Many of them could be shown the door right away and the leads generated would lead us to another good many that we could "round up" without much effort.
Oh wait, that would mean GWB/Kennedy/McCain actually have a clue...note to self, have Dr. re-evaluate meds...

BTW, Forrest
I see you also didn't answer my question about the BILLION other people who want to be illegal aliens here.

How convenient.


Leftangle
If you don't think the illegals are bringing this nation down you are asleep at the wheel. Take 12 to 24 MILLION new applicants on the job market, what is that going to do to our already unemployed? Take their refusal to learn our language. What do you think the cost is in taxpayer dollars just to reprint driving manuals, tax codesAnd for interpreters,just to name a few, and the list goes on and on. Everyone is talking about the prisons being overfull but I hear no one discussing the number of illegals who are there not only because they are illegal but have actually commited crimes both violent and non-violent. Please don't tell me that they are not bringing this nation down, because they most assuredly are.

capeconservative
Capeconservative writes a perfect example of the "provocative language" that i have been talking about and which I have so much righteous indignation towards. This is the kind of thing that you want to ignore, just as you would ignore the provocative language of La Raza or the NAACP and others. If I were Dr. Sowell I would be embarassed that i attract people like "capeconservative" but hey thats just me

No need to qualify your statements
The first chapter of the liberal playbook reads, “When all facts and evidence are going against you, assign malicious intentions to your opponents. You can turn the tables if you simply call your opponent a racist, sexist, homophobe, etc.” Well f’ that! These are the same liberals that have systematically destroyed the black community in this country with welfare entitlements, inept education, and race hustlers like Jesse Jackson. Liberals claiming to be champions of any minority are nothing short of shameful and dishonorable. All they care about is having plenty of victims in America to pity and weep for. Until these leftists provide any evidence that their vision will be better in the long run for either America or Mexico, it should be they who are labeled as self serving racists.

forrest
I thought Capeconservative wrote a perfectly phrased, succint and to the point example of his/her opinion. Sounded like it came straight from the heart.

YOU seem to have plenty of "righteous indignation" towards "the provocative language" that YOU "have been talking about". Why then do I find myself befuddled by your complete lack of any indignation whatsoever when it comes to real crime?

But hey THAT'S just me asking.

Triggers -oy!
We have current laws that don't require "triggers" to enforce. Like the 1986 Simpson-Mazoli Act and the 2006 Border Fence bill. Those are current laws that our government REFUSES to enforce. Why should we believe anything this government tells us?

Thanks to Voice of Reason
for adding a new branch to the discussion....it has made for a more interesting read than the same old, same old. It has produced some excellent, well-reasoned response.

So, V of R, here's my two cents on the moral issue.

As a parent, I feel a strong moral obligation to provide for and protect my family, first and foremost.
For us to voluntarily turn the US into a third world country where the highly-taxed "producers" can no longer afford to enjoy the wonderful lifestyle that the US has developed over the years would be a horrible betrayal of my family, and I won't go quietly into that dark night without a fight!

As a conservative and Catholic, I take strong issue with Cardinal Mahony and others of my faith who lobby for full amnesty for all of Latin America who wish to come to the US. Some of them even argue that we should ingore laws which prohibit the illegals from coming/staying.

From a moral standpoint, I think that it would be wonderful for the Catholic Church to stand up and say that the Catholic Church will pay for ALL of the costs associated with their taking of that stance. Let them put their money where their mouth is on this issue. (We all know that won't happen, right?) I would also note that the good Cardinal and the supporting priests/nuns have no future generations of their immediate family to be concerned over. (At least they aren't supposed to!)

As a Catholic, however, I would be willing to pay my fair share of those costs if the Catholic Church stepped forward. That would be a moral decision on my part. I would CHOOSE to do so, and as a Catholic, I would support it.

As an American taxpayer, I oppose it totally.

Vote Buying

What is vote buying????
Is it legal or a crime????
Is there a punishment for it????

I guess I should ask Congress. But laws are for us. They are above the law. Just ask Kennedy and crew.