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Tuesday, May 22, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Amnesty Fraud
by Thomas Sowell
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Nothing is more common than political "solutions" to immediate problems which create much bigger problems down the road. The current immigration bill in the Senate is a classic example.

The big talking point of those who want to legalize the illegal immigrants currently in the United States is to say that it is "unrealistic" to round up and deport 12 million people.

Back in 1986 it was "unrealistic" to round up and deport the 3 million illegal immigrants in the United States then. So they were given amnesty -- honestly labeled, back then -- which is precisely why there are now 12 million illegal immigrants.

As a result of the current amnesty bill -- not honestly labeled, this time -- will it be "unrealistic" to round up and deport 40 million or 50 million illegal immigrants in the future?

If the current immigration bill is as "realistic" as its advocates claim, why is it being rushed through the Senate faster than a local zoning ordinance could be passed?

We are, after all, talking about a major and irreversible change in the American population, the American culture, and the American political balance. Why is there no time to talk about it?

Are its advocates afraid that the voting public might discover what a fraud it is? The biggest fraud is denying that this is an amnesty bill.

Its advocates' argument is that illegal immigrants will have to meet certain requirements to become citizens. But amnesty is not about how you become a citizen.

The word is from the same root as "amnesia." It means you forget or overlook some crime, as if it never happened. All this elaborate talk about the steps illegal immigrants must go through to become citizens is a distraction from the crime they committed when they crossed the border illegally.

Instead, all attention is focused on what to do to accommodate those who committed this crime. It is a question that would be recognized as an insult to our intelligence on any other issue.

For example, there are undoubtedly thousands, perhaps millions, of unsolved crimes and uncaught criminals in this country and we cannot realistically expect to find and prosecute all these fugitives from justice.

But does anyone suggest that our focus should be on trying to normalize the lives of domestic fugitives from justice -- "bring them out of the shadows" in Ted Kennedy's phrase -- and develop some path by which they can be given an acceptable legal status?

Does anyone suggest that, if domestic criminals come forward, pay some fine, and apply to have their crimes overlooked, they can be put on a path to be restored to good standing in our society?

Just as we don't need to solve every crime and catch every criminal, in order to have deterrents to crime, neither do we have to ferret out and deport every one of the 12 million illegal aliens in this country in order to deter a flood of new illegal aliens.

All across this country, illegal aliens are being caught by the police for all sorts of violations of American laws, from traffic laws to laws against murder. Yet in many, if not most, places the police are under orders not to report these illegal aliens to the federal government.

Imprisoning known and apprehended lawbreakers for the crime of illegally entering this country, in addition to whatever other punishment they receive for other laws that they have broken -- and then sending them back where they came from after their sentences have been served -- would be something that would not be lost on others who are here illegally or who are thinking of coming here illegally.

Just as people can do many things better for themselves than the government can do those things for them, illegal aliens could begin deporting themselves if they found that their crime of coming here illegally was being punished as a serious crime, and that they themselves were no longer being treated as guests of the taxpayers when it comes to their medical care, the education of their children, and other welfare state benefits.

Incidentally, remember that 700-mile fence that Congress authorized last year? Only two miles have been built. That should tell us something about how seriously they are going to enforce other border security provisions in the current bill.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Exactly, Dr. Sowell.
"Does anyone suggest that, if domestic criminals come forward, pay some fine, and apply to have their crimes overlooked, they can be put on a path to be restored to good standing in our society?"


They are called liberals. Ever hear of rehabilitation?

Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles,
Amnesty Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles, and Power Brokers Tap-Dance

Much to the chagrin of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, (D) NV, the Senate Power Brokers, and the White House, the push for Cloture by tonight and compromise by Friday is now no closer than June, if at all.

Carefully finding his words and trying not to show defeat of the arrogant power play; "It would be to the best interests of the Senate ... that we not try to finish this bill this week," said Reid, (D) NV, as the chamber began debate on the volatile issue. "I think we could, but I'm afraid the conclusion wouldn't be anything that anyone wanted."

The offices of US Senators including Sen. Reid’s offices were clogged with phone calls, faxes, emails in a groundswell of opposition to this most recent attempt to hoodwink the US public with a fast push and shuffle of the so-called Immigration Reform program. The Senate deal crafted by Liberal Senator Kennedy (D) MA and the once embraced as a Conservative Senator Jon Kyl, (R) AZ; now said by vast portions of the US public as easily seen through as an Amnesty program, custom made for illegal aliens being allowed to stay in the US or return to the US to work cheaply on a Z Visa.

Though there appears many different reasons by Republican and Democrats, Conservative and Liberals alike to not want this latest boondoggle, it is obvious that the absence of real cost projections on this legislative effort that could easily top the cost of the Great Society programs of President Lyndon B. Johnson (D) TX that swelled the public welfare roles to millions and expenses to taxpayers in the Billions of Dollars.

There is growing evidence of organized labor siding with taxpayers on this effort to block unwanted entry of illegal aliens coming by the millions to take the jobs of America’s workforce. Although with unions at a historical low-point in membership, the very thought of swelling membership with newly arriving unskilled laborers by forsaking multi-generation union worker families is not as attractive as once thought by the liberal DEM & GOP politicians who are pushing the Amnesty deal.

The basic principles of enforcing US laws to prevent unwanted illegal aliens, protecting lawful citizens, securing borders and preserving language and culture are among the topics of frustration and anger by millions of Americans who have earned their place in America’s structure, history and future. Even first generation immigrants are speaking of the unfairness of all these lawbreakers coming in and now instead of deportation are facing full pardons and jobs and welfare and the promises of citizenship, never having earned it lawfully like the immigrants before them.

With the Amnesty Cloture Choked and Debate Dangling for a time in June, watch and listen over the next few weeks as the old song and dance routine takes place.

Richard G. Shuster (from Rick’s Random Ramblings, Amnesty Cloture Choked, Debate Dangles, and Power Brokers Tap-Dance)


The arrogance of our politicians
is mind-boggling. They work for "us." They are supposed to represent us. They have not represented us in my adult life time. They are greedy swine at our expense.

Excellent analysis, Mr. Sowell.

Immigration
Sowell, as usual, is spot on. If I described how I feel about this subject, I would be unmasked as someone who had spent too much time in the service, and developed a vocabulary unfit for gentlemen, much less ladies and children. I have already stopped contributing to any conservative causes, and if this, or anything remotely resembling it passes, I have cast my last vote. In the future, I'll devote whatever assets are available to me to squandering it overseas. Maybe my grandchildren would like to visit what is left of European civilization. We're headed the same way.

"Are its advocates afraid that the
voting public might discover what a fraud it is?"

I believe that hits the nail on the head.



By the way, anyone interested in Mark Steyn's take on illegal immigration, amnesty, etc. is welcome to drop by my blog (just click on my name).

moventure,
good post, but don't confuse conservative with Republican.

And, if you get a chance, you ought to drop by BrianR's blog:

http://viewfromtheisland.townhall.com/

His current post is on Bush's legacy.

Dump This Amnesty Bill
Sowell, you say it So well!
This bill purports to guarantee that legal status won't be conferred on these illegal aliens until certain "tough" standards of workplace and border enforcement have been achieved. In other words, "enforcement first".
Why then, if they are so concerned about "enforcement first", were they so opposed to the House bill introduced last year?
Hmmm?

Stop complaining & let our rulers rule!
Politicians are elected to do what they feel is best for us, and it is unwise to question their methods, otherwise they cannot take care of us properly. After all, as parents we set rules for our children, and we do not permit them to question our motives. To allow children to question every decision undermines our authority as parents. Likewise, to question the policies of our politicians undermines their ability to tend to our needs.

We elect representatives to enact laws, and it is our duty to obey them, not question them. Common sense tells us that politicians are wiser than the people they rule, and that is why we elect them to make our decisions for us. Thus, if our rulers wish to allow illegal aliens to become citizens, it is not for us to question the logic behind such a decision, but it is our responsibility to carry out their orders.


Handy
I agree with a lot of what you said, but the trade agreements we have right now *are not* free trade agreements. The politicians and media referring to them as such does not make it true. They are managed trade agreements. Nothing free about them. Way too much government control. In fact it is that government control that gives special preference to certain international companies. That is the antithesis to free enterprise.

Who Killed Free Trade?
http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=189&sortorder=articledate

What is Free Trade?
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2000/cr050200.htm

Dr. Sowell your insight
to this problem is right on as usual! Most intelligent Americans know what must be done, and should be done. Close and secure all borders immediately by putting the the U.S. Army on the borders then build whatever secure barricades necessary. Thus locking further invaders out. And the current Illegal Aliens in.

Then begin the process of punishing the Illegal invaders already here as we come across them as you explain. But what are we to do when our law enforcement officers are given orders not to interfere, and are framed and jailed for doing their jobs!?

We know that Ted Kennedy,and all whom are behind this farce of a bill. Could care less about our country and trying to rush it through strictly for political gain. It would not surprise me at all to find that many behind this push. Is also providing false ID's to the Illegals on the condition they vote Democrat!

Amnesty
Immigration Reform and Control Act 1986- "This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this." - Ted Kennedy

law abiding citizens?
"i went on the web to see if i could get a rather simple definition of illegal. here is what i found

illegal adj.
1. prohibited by law 2. prohibted by official rule

n.
an illegal alien

it seems like a pretty clear and simple definition to me. if i perform an illegal act then i am doing something that is breaking the law...so, if i am an illegal alien then my very existence in the country makes me a criminal."

this is part of a post i had done at another blog site. i have just moved the post to my one at townhall. i quote this part because i grow weary of the argument that many of the illegal's here are "law abiding citizens" (if you think that statement makes sense then i have some land to sell you in florida). my answer to that is simply this, "no, the immigrants that are law abiding citizens are the ones who became naturalized citizens through legal means."

the argument that they just want to be able to make a better living grows old too. hey, i want to make a better living too, but i am not breaking any laws to achieve that goal.



Handy
Dr. Paul is NOT anti-American and yes it angers me that you would say that. It is apparently easier for you to believe what FOX news spins than to go check out the facts for yourself.

In fact, that statement says much more about you than Dr. Paul. His voting record is more than proof of his patriotism. Have you taken the time to check it out? nooooooooooo. Have you taken the time to check out what he said about our foreign policy over the last 50 years? Apparently not, because you would have discovered that what he said is supported by CIA intelligence. What do you think, Handy.. he just pulled that out of his arse? Hardly.

But, in the post a few posts up that you are having a hissy fit about, concerned our trade policies. Clearly, you do not understand what "free trade" really is. So, I provided a link for you to the Ludwig von Mises Institute. One of President Reagan's favorite institutions. Is that what got your panty's in a wad, or is it because I also posted a link to one of Dr. Paul's articles on the same subject? Along with President Reagan, Dr. Paul has also studied at the Mises Institute. Sorry if that upsets your apple cart.

For Ambiclorox Burgers -- on Fines --
quoth Ambiclorox Burgers: "people who break the law
need to be punished. And not with some stupid $5000 fine. A fine isn't a punishment."

WHAT???

So how much money have YOU got in YOUR wallet???

I don't know about anybody else, but to me, five thousand bucks is a LOT of MONEY.

Alby
"I don't know about anybody else, but to me, five thousand bucks is a LOT of MONEY."

Let's be realistic shall we? They won't pay the fine, the Republicans put that in there so they could tell us they tried. None of them will leave the country after any amount of time. If we want to speak honestly and intelligently lets call it for what it is. They will be granted amnesty, they will not go home, they will not pay a fine. They will become U.S. Citizens, the Dem's will call them on it and expect (and will get) 12 million new votes. If we cannot find them and deport them now, why should they leave just because a new law has been enacted? In 10 years it will be 20 million illegals plus the 12 million new "legal" citizens and we will do this all over again. Amazing....

Could be a Reason for Speed
I just wondered, do you suppose dems might be in such a hurry to get a certain group of people on the voting registers before the election? It might save a lot of recounts and hanging chads. They do have ballots in Spanish now right?

Amnesty? What are we fighting for??
Listening to coverage on the Senate's passage of a six hundred-plus-page Omnibus Bill which ostensibly contains immigration reform has caused many of us who previously supported the president despite some misgivings, suddenly finding the basis for why our sons and daughters should no longer carry the water for Presidential policy in Iraq anymore.

Our new, Administratively supported Senate bill defining new structures of complex law and unfunded mandates of cost to employers and states for the "voluntary" enforcement of the law is probably unconstitutional (in particular the 10th amendment). If that's not enough (and constitutionality never is these days), there's more:

It is clear from an intuitive stand point that this bill is also fanciful and intentionally unenforceable. The law as written is, complex in it's definition ( several hundred pages makes impressively long novels but horrid law), Pollyanna white-light in it's assumptions that those who have gotten by on the cheap before, will find an epiphany and magically step upt to shell out fines and become good potential citizens.

Need I say? The human inclination to come here illegally as before will not somehow be vanquished by the, "opportunity" to first pay fines, and taxes, become identifiable and accountable to credit organizations for bills accrued in places like emergency rooms in U.S. hospitals. The human inclination to take an "easy in", and let it slide will result in many of them never doing anything but renewing the so-called "Z-card". This is backed up by the fact that many illegals really have no desire to be citizens; they just want the money and the opportunities.

The call for more border patrol funding at first light, seem to shine as two of the provisions with potential to protect the sovereignty of this country. However under closer scrutiny, the infrastructure to take on both additional prisoners for deportation is not there and not adequately supported by this bill. Encouraged by the sheer mildness and unenforceability of these laws, the huge new influx of illegal attempted legal and illegal immigration will expand exponentially. The INS, (Immigration and Naturalization Service) so flummoxed by sheer numbers and lack of staff that it sent green cards to the 9-11 high-jackers months after 9-11. The INS is ill equipped to keep track of the present flow and is even less equipped to enforce complexities of the new law. Border patrols have become a joke to all who wish to enter. As and example, recently some unarmed border patrolling National Guardsmen have found themselves in the untenable position cornered, at the mercy of armed banditos boldly stepping across the boarder with their cargo of drugs and illegal aliens.

Ask any recent legal immigrant about their experiences joining our country and they will tell you about the difficulties and aggravation of legally dealing with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. The INS, which is being operated like a series of loosely attached "ma and pa cottage operations" needs now to be more like a well integrated army or at least in terms of handling massive border paperwork, the INS would need to man each border entrance with the expedience of Wal-Mart check-out lanes during the peak of the Christmas season. There have been no calls for the huge expansion of the INS regarding the immensity of this task. The designated approach is for the above mentioned "Unfunded Mandate" to businessmen and citizens, to finger the bad-guys. This could be a useless if not dangerous proposition if no doubt, the accusers find not enough INS agents to take care of illegalities once discovered.

In short, this bill gives our sovereignty away to people who purposely violated law the moment of crossing the Rio Grand. The bill is designed to appease the Democratic party leaders who see their growing strength (and attachment to modern aristocracy) in it's expansion of their right hand, new, low paying, unionize-able unskilled labor which will be easily infiltrated and coalesced by Democrats into their voting block. Republicans who vote for this attempt appeasement of the unappeasable and they will find their party more fractured than ever before. Many who stopped donations to Republican Party and, exasperated to inactivity in 2006 will now actively seek elective defeat of those who deem beltway expedience and political aristocracy more important than the security of our nation.

Beltway expedience and political favor being more important than the security of our nation puts in perspective now as never before how little these Senators and Representative care about our nation, respect our pride, respect our culture and our constitution. To me and many like me, the futility of defending Iraq is suddenly manifest.

If we become fakers at controlling our borders and thus our national destiny, then we have no reason to apply our compassionate and hearty sons and daughters to improve Iraq, a dry godforsaken land where a millennium long, deadly "potshot-fest" of ungrateful tribal Shia and Sunni, Islamic-fascist idiocy has become smeared upon us.

The "Evil Doers" can sift more easily through the south (and elsewhere) and thus the argument, that if we leave Iraq, "we will give it all away, and they will come here", is now pointless. Our President and the Congress by this legislation are already giving away our own country, illegal by illegal and now more so by each occasional terrorist illegal.

Ask the soldiers risking their lives in Anbar clearing out the murderous terrorists how they like the idea of allowing great amounts of trusting and permissive lenience (which truly amounts to amnesty) on people who criminally and deceptively came into our country. You can bet some of of the first words out of their mouth will be, "if we are going to do that, why in the hell am I here?".



Apologies to Mr. Sowell
For posting my suddenly urgent blast, the length of which although concurrent with, exceeded his very well and tightly written column. Thank you Town Hall for the opportunity.

Allen Kelly

Alby

"I don't know about anybody else, but to me, five thousand bucks is a LOT of MONEY."

Let's be realistic shall we? They won't pay the fine, the Republicans put that in there so they could tell us they tried. None of them will leave the country after any amount of time. If we want to speak honestly and intelligently lets call it for what it is. They will be granted amnesty, they will not go home, they will not pay a fine. They will become U.S. Citizens, the Dem's will call them on it and expect (and will get) 12 million new votes. If we cannot find them and deport them now, why should they leave just because a new law has been enacted? In 10 years it will be 20 million illegals plus the 12 million new "legal" citizens and we will do this all over again. Amazing....

I'm disgusted and alarmed.

This latest Amnesty is an abomination. The third in my lifetime and each one comes with promises that it will be the LAST one, but they never solve the problem. They make the problem WORSE. But I guess our Congress isn't very imaginative or resourceful, because here we go again! The definition of insanity is when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

First of all....who do these pompous Congressmen think they are? They are not kings, they are slobs we elected to represent Americans, not to represent illegal foreigners! But they come out like kings making their pronouncement (without the permission of the people and with no debate), that they are going to DESTROY 250 YEARS OF AMERICAN HISTORY by turning our country into the United Socialst Republic of North Ameximerica!

Secondly, why would any Republican go along with a plan that will ultimately reduce their party to irrelevance? I smell something VERY FISHY. Follow the money.

This plan is dangerous to national security, will be unbelievably expensive (illegal immigration is already killing our resources and they want to triple it??), will hurt cities already overwhelmed by this cancer, will increase crime in our cities (we can't deport gang members? I'd like to know the rationale behind that genius decision) and most of all...the plan is UNENFORCEABLE!

Who is going to enforce the NEW rules? The same people who couldn't enforce the old ones?

This Amnesty is a joke but Americans are not laughing. I have never seen such unbridled anger as I have been seeing from my fellow Americans since these Congressional kings announced their malignant vision for America's future. Many of us are changing our party affiliation over this abortion of sanity.

If these genii in Congress had any real idea (or care) about what people are saying, they would hire some illegals to build them a deep bunker because people want to tar & feather them. Starting with John McCain. He's about as Conservative as Elvis' Vegas costumes.

We need wisdom and common sense in government, but God knows there is none to be found on the hill today.

Disgusted.

Loyal Democrat
Love your Blog. You sure sound like an old friend, AOL screen name Neepads. She used to write hysterical satire until AOL turned the boards boring.

the beginning of the end?
by my math our republic is only 231 years old and we have faced many hardships, but this might be the final straw that destroys our experiment just like hiring germans to fight for rome.
we have allowed the ruling class to attack our last vestige of democracy, we have given the whole "demo" part away to the leftists that think that they have the right to redistribute out property for their ends. And what is more precious a thing you own than your American citizenship?!!
we have allowed an invasion of 20 million troops into our country so that they can fight for the left and things have gone so far for so long that the babyboomers cant even lift a finger to defend themselves.
this is going to start a war once people wake up and realize that the generation that grew up after world war two has completely sold us out. Unfortunately most of the people here have been educated (led out of what?)by the same leftists so they cant even form the words to describe the obvious attack that is occurring. They think that its our fault for all the misery in the world so why not just put the whole planet on welfare and redistibute everything?!!
My nephews and nieces are going to fighting these people in the streets once the hippies dry up and blow away and we're left with runaway inflation and the corruption culture that all these lawless victims will bring.
but I'm just sooooo crazy,huh. I just out of my mind.
W is trying to find a way to put the genie back into the bottle and stave off the red onslaught but its not going away.
look at the similarities to rome's fall: our army is fighting a war that no one here even cares about so the armed services are disenfranchised (check.) and the rich pampered youth is being fed with deficit spending from a treasury that is supposedly bottomless (check) and we have an enemy that wants to sleep in our beds (check) and on top of all of it, the pill and abortion has killed off the generation that mightve helped us out.
this is NOT good and its NOT going to just go away without very bad things happening.
the saddest part of all is that most Americans wouldnt even know where to begin to start an argument on their own behalf-if they even cared to.
Michigan fought a civil war where thousands died. It has happened here and I WONT be surprised when bullets start flying over this, if anyone has a gun anymore...
its either this bill gets passed or hitlery gets elected and there's blood in the streets.
but what will that do? buy us another ten years?


I saw a report
last night where an illegal alien was laughing about the ID situation. He just laughed and laughed, saying all he has to do is buy all the fake IDs and he's free and clear.

What a joke, a very bad joke this is on us. Not one of these illegals will ever pay that so called fine.

Hearing the pols tell us they can't deport all these people is a disgusting lie. All they have to do is go to any local distribution center, meat packaging plant, construction sites all over the country and right away they can get thousands of them.

Hey, they can just drive down any road in suburbia and see all the illegals mowing grass.

How hard could this be? No, they might not get all of them, but they can get a lot of them. And, then maybe some Americans can get their jobs back.

Since the pols are now going to "debate" the bill and not ram it through before Memorial Day, it appears all the faxes, e mails and phone calls are having an effect.

We need to keep pounding at them over and over. Tell them you won't reelect them. Tell them they are a bunch of traitorous thieves and they all need to be thrown out of office.

loyal democrat
You're what's wrong with America. Nothing but a bleaking sheep following Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Durbin, Feingold et al to slaughter.

Good grief! Why? Why are democrats so blind about everything happening to our once great nation? I just simply cannot inderstand their reasoning or logic.

Relax.
At least relax about this law.It was dead on arrival within hours of the details being announced.The backers of the law are furious that the details got out to the public,because it gave the public a chance to respond before it ever hit the floor of the Senate.In the House,they will just laugh it off the floor.After all,all of the House members and one third of the Senate are up for re-election next year.Reid has already delayed consideration of the bill in the Senate and it is not even close to getting to the house.Two Republican Senators almost came to blows (and you know who they are) over this very compromise.

I expect we are stuck with "business as usual" on illegal aliens for the forseeable future.

Levi...
...You must be a new poster.

Good job Dr. Sowell
Did anyone see Fox News yesterday evening when the "panel" answered questions about this mess. They had 1 Neocon and two liberals to answer the questions. Guess what, they were all "surprised" by the opposition to this bill. Fred Barnes said that the people who were screaming that it wasn't amnesty would never be satisfied. I also note that the "Weekly Standard" has no columns about this issue all the way back to the end on their site. That tells you where they are at. Barns supports Bush on every policy he has.

As to the current bill, Hugh Hewitt has the best analysis I have seen yet. The bill in it's current form is unenforceable so it will be just like the last bill and we will have the 40 to 50 million that Dr. Sowell is talking about, that is if we don't already have them.

Perhaps a few more clauses should be added to the bill to assure enforcement. Instead of the so called "benchmarks" they should add a caveat in which all the available data shall be turned over to a pro-group and an anti-group who will then conduct a hearing. A panel of ordinary citizens chosen by random selection (with no lame excuses for absence) will decide if an honest effort has been made to enforce the rules. If not, then whoever is at fault will be charged with a crime and prosecuted.

If it is determined that the law is unenforceable as written, every one who voted for the bill will be ejected from congress and forbidden from ever seeking office again. If it is determined that the executive dept has not made a good faith effort to enforce, then the head of the immigration dept will be fired and the president impeached; neither to be allowed to hold any office again.

Dr Sowell had the answer
to this awhile back when he said,"cut off the welfare gravy train and we won't "need" them and they will go home on their own.I am paraphrasing to some extent, but he was correct. Enforce the laws against hiring them, they will go home. Arrest them for a crime, determine their status, lock them up, put them on a chain gang to build roads and FENCES, then send them home...In other words..STRAP a set on and do your GD job mr/mrs politician, you work for US not the 3rd world and not employers who care about nothing but their bottom line.
The other day there was a photo of kennedy, Graham and others all yucking it up on the hill, I almost lost my lunch. kennedy, that spawn of an anti-semitic,racist bootlegger is writing the epitaph of the Republican party and these dammed fools are blind to it. What was so funny? That they thought we were THAT stupid?

Time to start over folks.I have given my last vote to anyone who won't stand up and no more money...I will NOT pay to see my country wrested from my grandchildren. I did not spend a third of my life in uniform to see these miserable excuses for reps give this country away. Vote them all out in 08 ALL of the house and 1/3 of the senate should send the message very nicely.

Possible solution:
This bill is a win win for all illegals. When our congress cares more for mexican citizens than for American's we can kiss this country good-bye. An illegal who wants citizenship should earn the right by serving 4 years in the US Army. After earning an "Honorable" discharge he/she could apply for citizenship.

solving illegal immigration
Several years ago a bunch of us were having a discussion about automobile safety and all of the whiz-whaz the government mandates to make automobiles safe. I offered the suggestion that if one really wanted to increase auto safety and decrease accidents, instead of an airbag system we should install a large steel spike that, if deployed due to collision, would be thrust right through the heart of the driver. I was then and am certain today that any driver aware of that would drive with exceeding caution and avoid all possibility of accident. Several of my colleagues thought I was cruel.

So you know where I'm coming from when I write that if we want to solve illegal immigration, we need to make it extremely undesireable - both on the supply end and on the demand end. As for supply, NO benefits of any kind for any illegal alien. Maybe that requires some form of ID that clearly delineates citizens and legal residents from illegal. If one wants to be here and has gone through the effort to become legal, showing that ID should be a matter of pride. Not having one means no services of any kind. No anchor baby status, no medical help, no welfare, no schooling for children - zero help or assistance other than a bus ride back to the border. As for demand, any business that is found to employ illegal aliens will be shut down while all employement records are scrutinized in a search for any more illegals. If employment of illegals appears to be a pattern, all assets of the company will be siezed and auctioned. Would anyone then employ illegals? This very simple approach would stop both the supply and demand of illegal aliens.

I know that everyone probably thinks this is pretty draconian. Dems will hate it because they think that we need to be compassionate to law breakers and must bankrupt our country, if necessary, to give aid and comfort to the enemy. Republicans will hate it because many of them think they are entitled to cheap labor and illegals drive down the price of labor. They discount the cost of that cheap labor (with all of the entitlement programs and the burden of illegals on our economy) because it is a cost they do not bear, society as a whole does. I may become physically violent with the next person who tells me that illegals are doing work that Americans won't do. We'll do anything if the price is right. It's time for businesses to bear the cost and pass it along to consumers honestly instead of deferring the cost of production to taxpayers by paying too low wages and letting the government pick up the tab for all of the entitlements to illegals as well as to the un-employed legals.

I will be out of here all day so I won't be able to respond until much, much later tonight by which time it would be moot. But probably both sides of the argument will have fun ripping me.
This may sound extreme but you know it would work. The question is, are we serious about driving safely or do we want to drive like idiots and rely on the airbag?

Not as long as Bush is President
Who actually believes the President has any intention of building a fence? How will we enforce new laws when we won't enforce current laws? Will the people breaking current law comply with any new law? What will we do if they don't?
Who actually believes, that when George W. Bush delivers on his promises to citizens of other countries illegally in our country, that they will vote Republican? Another amnesty will result in Democrat majorities for decades. How stupid do you have to be to import voters for the opposition at the same time you alienate your own voters? If the GOP surrenders our sovereignty and abandons the rule of law, they may find in November 2008, that they still have their big money/cheap labor donors, but they do not have voters. GOP-RIP


We should not undertake any immigration reform until after another Presidential election. This President has shown his loyalties are not to American citizens on this issue. Personally, I believe we need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We have the laws, what we don't have is any enforcement. Without enforcement, laws are meaningless.

This new package will be no different than 1986. The borders could have and should have been secured September 12, 2001. But that would have disrupted the cheap labor express and the RNC could not disappoint its contributors. So the problem has doubled as enforcement went from inadequate under Clinton to nonexistent under Bush. Now they will try to jam another amnesty down our throats. The question remains, will we let them?

Sowell is right
And so is Bartlett, and the others. Who is this President? Frankly, I am not sure that Bill Clinton was not at least LESS dangerous to this nation (if still a walking moral disaster). As strongly as I believe and feel that conservative/libertarian principles are the way to govern, I will NOT vote next election if these Repubs keep tilting and governing left. Words are no longer enough. If this is true of me, no doubt it is true twice over for most. Hey Party, get a grip. And stop selling out our kids. Those who vote for this bill, and the Prez who signs it, should be tried for child molestation given what it will spill on the next generation.

Loyal Democrat
Glad to see you are still doing your job. Right on.

To Mr. Right
I disagree, your policy will punish the wrong people. What we should do is two fold to seal the border.

1. Enact a law that the CEO of any company faound guilt of hiring illegals without an honest background check goes to JAIL. The lenght of time dependent on the effort made to research.

2. Build a fence and mine it if necessary. If soneone gets blown up, tough.

Tangled Web
Tangled webOh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive! Sir Walter Scott Listen up Congress....
Citizens of the world-come 1 and all.Our govenment will give away our American dream.Take anything you want -lie-cheat-steal-rob-kill-drive drunk-rape to obtain your desires.Nothing will withheld from you.You will be rewarded handsomely for you criminal activies.Our government and big business is so money hungry ,cheap labor is their way..Sacrifice Americans for money.
Illegals have no respect for America. They want what we have and will do anything to get it.
Illegal Invaders have built nothing but a Cesspool of Crime, Corruption, Poverty & Misery. Congress BEWARE!!!!
"Mexicans do the work that Americans Citizens don't want to do", Translated, "Mexicans will do the work more cheaply than American Citizens puting more money into our corporate coffers and the pockets of the rich who control us.Now mexicans march carrying signs saying We demand fair wages.Now who can we import to do the work the mexicans refuse to do.

Mr. Sowell
I know this guy…….


who came to this country with his parents at age eleven. He remembers going with his parents to get their Visa’s after waiting a long time for it, because that was required in order to immigrate.

His father also had to have a job already lined up in the USA and a sponsor who was a US citizen prior to obtaining the Visa.

The voyage on the SS Italia was a lot of fun for an eleven year old boy and the eight days to cross the Atlantic Ocean was a great adventure. The excitement of going to this country was unimaginable and full of anticipation.

He’ll never forget the sight of the Statue of Liberty standing so proudly in New York Harbor and the majestic skyline on the horizon. It was a promise fulfilled as that of the land of honey.

It wasn’t long that he went to school and in six months had become fluent in the language of his new country. He absorbed everything around him and slowly transformed from a foreigner to an American.

At seventeen he volunteered for military service and spent the next three years (32 months were spent overseas) paying the dues he felt obligated to recompense for the privilege of living in a country where opportunities are abound if you are willing to work for them.

After returning, he found many things had changed. Three years is a long time when removed from such a dynamic country, and sadly some of his friends had died in the jungles of Vietnam, others had returned with serious issues, drugs or mental. He got a job, bought a new car, met his soulmate, got a second job, she got a job, bought a house and began living their American Dream.


All the while Politicians had betrayed them by not supporting them to win the battle/war. The people were treating them like crap, labeling them baby killers and throwing trash at their uniforms. Burning the very flag which symbolizes by its very colors what has made this country great and the history attached to it. It was the beginning of the downward slide that brings us to today.


The guy I know happens to be me…..and I felt compelled to share this.

It hasn’t taken long for history to repeat itself. The same political situation is now evident in Washington DC, the very people who supported the war in Iraq are now saying they were wrong to do so, and want to leave another unfinished job behind. For them to reverse the vote they extended initially is one thing, but to hold up funding to support our troops is unforgivable. When will we learn that politicians are just tokens of what once were great statesmen and who no longer have the desire to continue what our forefathers have started and what had been accomplished by that greatness by people full of character.


I say this now, and I mean it with all my heart.


One does not have to like one’s government to love one’s country.


I for one have Zero Faith in the elected officials of today; I can no longer stand by and approve of what they do. They are failures in what they have been elected to do and have mismanaged our funds to the point of no return. They are a force gone wild and no longer respect offices they hold. They are traitors of the worst kind in that they have the power by default to initiate and continue their treason.


They are allowing this country to be ravaged by people who do not deserve to be here. People who will never assimilate (they talk about “La Rassa”) and never become part of what has made this country what it is today. People who bring crime and illnesses, some we haven’t heard of in many years like polio, which still thrives in third world countries. They are like bloodsuckers and are bringing a pestilence instead of contributions that are worthy of living here in return. They fly their national flag in full view of us to mock us.


Yet these very same politicians have no qualms about sacrificing the best of the best because of their own political greed, and then denying them funding to continue a cause which if left unfinished will haunt us forever. They have turned our once great nation into a snake which is swallowing its own tail. They have developed and voted in laws which are destroying the very foundation of this great Republic, and they do it with lies, one after the other.


They need to be held accountable. NOW!

To those who sat out '06 election...
The house republicans are the only reason this fraud didn't become law a year ago. Congratulations to all of you who sat out the last election to "teach republicans a lesson."

Thanks a lot.

Nam65-66
You said, "I expect we are stuck with ‘business as usual’ on illegal aliens for the foreseeable future."

Maybe that was the whole point: to come up with a bill which incorporated something for EVERYBODY to hate. The predictable screams of outrage, coming from across the entire ideological spectrum, would then justify doing what our esteemed legislators wanted to do in the first place, which is nothing.

Any serious attempt at immigration reform must address the basic realities, which include our unsecured borders, the inefficiency and ineptitude of the INS in enforcing the laws currently on the books, and the incentive toward illegal immigration that the “anchor baby” rule provides. Because this bill is a sham attempt to deal with the consequences of failed policies, not the causes of that failure, it’s an exercise in futility. As perhaps it was intended to be.

Rock Strongo
First off, I did not sit out last election. But what is the difference for those that did? This bill is being supported by a lot of Republicans. Not a few, not a small minority, but a significant portion! The Repubs that got voted out in 06 would have supported this bill to the man. They were RINOs. I will not sit out next election, but I can tell you that I will not vote for ANY republican that supports this bill.

No you are wrong in your outlook. Blindly supporting a politician because he/she has an (R) after their name is NOT the answer. If it takes ellimination of the Republican Party to get this country right, that is what we need to do.

Toro
Thank you. The naturalized citizens of my acquaintance express the same views.




Mixed views
I would have no problem with a Guest Worker program. One that allowed nearby neighbors to cross the border to work, pay taxes and return home on a regular basis. I also have no problem with making LEGAL immigration more open.

I do have problems with our using the population of illegal residents to allocate Congressional representation. And with granting US citizenship to the children of legal and illegal aliens. These actually give States and local government a disincentive to enforce the law. We need to deal with these issues also.

Nam65-66
No, I've made few posts. Usually on Hewitt's and Limbaugh's columns for a few months now. Today I posted on everyone addressing illegal immigration by illegal aliens (loyal to another country). In my book they will remain forever illegal aliens whether they are given amnesty or not.

It is a scary situation for our once great nation to crumble before our eyes and our enemies.

We might as well tell our warriors in Iraq and Afghanistan our president has surrendered to the enemy and it will not be very much longer before he surrenders over there.

Every time I read Dr. Sowell....
I become calm and peaceful. He speaks with precision and grace.

Every time I listen to a politician I become angry and upset. They speak with generalities and bologna.

Dr. Sowell is a statesman. Politicians are political whores.

Just out of curiosity...
...how is it "amnesty" or "forgetting" the crime if we require some sort of restitution? If I get a speeding ticket, in many cases I'm allowed to pay an extra fine or conform with certain other conditions (defensive driving class, probation pending a certain amount of time without further offenses, etc.) to reduce other parts of the legal penalty (e.g., points on my license, going down on my permanent driving record, etc.). Is this also considered amnesty? What about plea bargains?

The devil is in the details, but from what we know about the immigration bill, not only does it deal with the illegals already here, but it also takes steps to prevent future illegal immigrants in the future and does so in several ways. For one, it provides a legal way for workers to enter the country, workers for whom there is a market demand.

As far as Handy's statements go, they are not only overly broad, simplistic, and stereotypical, they are also simply not true. There is a demand for, say, Indian engineers and programmers because they ARE competent, and people wouldn't be hiring Mexican workers if they weren't worth the cost of their labor. Living here in Texas, I recognize that Mexicans are known as hard workers and good employees; my own maid is Mexican, as are the two handymen my apartment building employs, and as are the painting and lawn service employees that most homeowners I know use. There would be no demand for more immigrant laborers if the labor they provided was not worth the price being paid. That's the magic of a free market.


How Illegal becomes legal
If this bill is passed, here is what happens:

1. An ILLEGAL alien fills out an application for "Z" status, providing information such as a name (any name will do), information about their health and past criminal records (lie about it, if necessary), and provide finger prints and/or other biomteric data. No fees, fines, or payments required to fill out the application.
2. The government has to complete a backround check based on information it has no idea if it is true or not by the end of the next business day. (How long do you think it will take the government to process Z application background checks? Has the government ever completed any simple task in a day?).
3. If nothing negative turns up by the end of the next business day, the ILLEGAL alien gets legal status under 601(h)which provides for immediate work authorization, protection from being detained or deported for immigration purposes and no longer can be defined as an unauthorized alien under the Immigration and Nationality Act.
Our ILLEGAL alien now has legal status (no fines or punishment, therefor AMNESTY)

Our pardoned illegal alien now can stay in our country legally. While they can not receive Z status until the Effective Date Triggers occur, they still have legal status to stay in the country. As I've indicated in other postings, one of the Triggers is Customs and Border Patrol hiring 18,000 agents and staff. The Senate bill also requires only that a minimum of 500 CBP officers be hired per year. Do the math on how long it will take to get to the Trigger Date. In the interim, our now pardoned former ILLEGAL alien has legal status to remain in the country.

Kennedy, Kyle, Specter, Graham are all snake oil salesmen trying to white wash the governments past failure to protect our borders and enforce immigration laws against illegal immigrants and the employers who hire them.

Email message to my senators
Amnesty
Let me get this straight. A person who has illegaly entered my country and not paid income taxes and social security taxes will be "legalized" by this bill and gets to stay here if:
1. They pay a $5000.00 fine.
2. Don't pay their back taxes.
3. Come out of the shadows and be recognized.
4. Get a path to citizenship by hoop jumping for the gov'ment.

Here is what I believe will happen.
1. They probably won't pay a fine.
(If I stayed here for years without paying a fine and they never took the time to find me, why pay the fine)
2. If I didn't pay taxes before, why should I pay them now?
3. They will come out of the shadows because they will be enabled to continue to break the law.
4. Massive fraud will ensue on the path the citizenship and those people won't bother to demonstate their capacity or ability to be citizens, in the real sense as opposed to defacto.

What would happen if I didn't pay my taxes.
1. The IRS would put a lien on my wages and my real property.
2. If I owed back taxes they would apply fines and penalties and attach a lien on my wages and property.
3. If I used someone else's identity to work and earn money here; I would have committed fraud and I would go to jail.

Why should I be held to a higher standard of behavior than an illegal alien? I would never receive amnesty from my government for anything. Why should they? The government is just too lazy to do this job. I don't hate illegal aliens. I want them held accountable, like the government wants to hold me accountable when I make mistakes in my 401K or Roth IRA and pay their penalties. They sure can jump on me quick when I do that.

Just think what I could get away with if I was a Kennedy or an illegal alien. But maybe I am the real chump for following all of the rules and laws.

Dr. K

Roger Hedgecock Has The Solution
Mr. Hedgecock has suggested, in so many words, beefing up customer service at the Social Security Administration. Employers must be required to verify the name of their employees matches the employee's Social Security number. If there is no match then the individual cannot be employed. Illegals, of course, use fraudulent S.S. numbers. If this were implemented and enforced the government wouldn't have to deport millions of illegals. When they couldn't work they'd find their way back to their home countries on their own.

Mr. Hedgecock says this has been demonstrated to be true by American economic downturns when illegals essentially deported themselves. Mr. Hedgecock's idea also avoids costly and Big Brother-ish national I.D. cards. It's the perfect solution and we as a nation should insist it be done.

The Legacy of George W. Bush

If he gets his amnesty, he will be remembered as the last Republican President. The GOP will go the way of the Whigs and whatever party arises to replace it will never dislodge the Democrat majority, thanks to his stupidity of importing voters for the Democrats. He may go down in history as the man who simultaneously destroyed his party and his country. Of course that would be in the underground English language history books. The official Spanish language history books will laud him as the man who delivered El Norte to La Raza. (the Race in English)

Illegal Aliens Must Go

I provide you for your information a Letter to the Editor I wrote to the Economist Magazine. Not that it would ever be published, but it sets out the case succinctly.

Then, at the bottom of this missive I include a short piece from the National Bureau of Economic Research -- no friend to conservatives -- regarding the outcomes to be seen given this bill's passage. I doubt that you or I will have any effect on this cockamamie thing. I do know that the common people in the Midwest are for the first time in a very long time vocal regarding this matter.

I understand that Lindsay Graham made a soppy speech comparing the immigrants of 1913 with the ones now crossing our border.. Somebody should tell the Senator that there is a substantial difference between the expanding industrial economy for those who entered legally at that time and the situation today.

------------------------

To the editor
The Economist

Immigration rules are designed by the host country to maximize the benefit to its economy, subject to the protection of its native population in the republic, For the United States this is especially difficult. The promise of the Republic has been to provide for its people the opportunity for interclass mobility. Reneging on this promise is dangerous.

Europe has mostly a society of stratified classes which has resulted in statist governments. We cannot afford the luxury of changing from a free Republic to the European model.

This Illegal Alien Amnesty bill has the potential to bring down America as we know it and move us from an upwardly mobile land of economic opportunity to a stratified statist government, the likes of which are strangling Europe. America can not and will not tax itself into that position.

The Senate is acting in the interest of Reelection and not in the interests of the Republic. This is much more than a sea change in American politics. It is an unmitigated disaster. Does anybody think that once the Hispanics have proven their political muscle, they will stop at what they are granted in this Bill?

America was once the implicit guarantor to our people of the opportunity for interclass mobility -- the opportunity for moving up the economic ladder -- which is the hallmark of the Republic. We can not afford to lose the energy our people would have brought in the absence of this disgrace.

The Bill will create a permanent underclass. No longer will the blacks and others in public housing have that trapdoor up into society. We already have the makings of that underclass in the broken families which no longer believe in Education as an Economic and a Social Good. There resentments will fester.

We will no longer be one nation under God, but rather several enclaves in which people exist with little hope of escaping

That will destroy the republic and turn us into a statist society. When our lower classes wake up to see that they are at the end of an even longer rope there will be hell to pay. Look at the Moslems in Britain and in France for a glimpse into the future of America.

This Illegal Alien Amnesty Bill will take economic opportunity away from the very people we are morally required to provide a path for upward mobility -- our own citizens and legal immigrants. They need the jobs now being filled by illegal aliens, but which could be filled at a market clearing wage by our people.

Not only is it an Illegal Alien Amnesty Bill it is also an Employers Forgiveness and Protection Bill -- forgiveness for the continued employment of illegal aliens, protection of profit margins. It rewards them but does not consider the effect on the economy as a whole.

Abstracting from the additional Homeland Security Costs, it will be cheaper for us to pay ten cents more per head of lettuce (as an example), than to pay the public social costs of these illegals and their families, the continued social welfare costs of the people we are turning into a proletariat.

The National Bureau of Economic Research has published a monograph detailing the cost to our lower classes of this boondoggle. According to the NBER it will depress wages and increase incarcerations. I attach it below.



-----------------------
IMMIGRATION EFFECTS
Immigration has more far-reaching consequences than merely depressing wages and lowering employment rates of low-skilled African-American males: its effects also appear to push some would-be workers into crime and, later, into prison, according to researchers with the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER).

According to their analysis:

Using census data from 1960 to 2000, they found a 10 percent rise in immigrants in a particular skill group significantly trimmed the wages of black and white men alike.
For African-Americans, the decline was 3.6 percent; for whites, it was actually slightly higher: 3.8 percent.
Beyond that, however, the black-white experience differed markedly, especially for low-skilled workers. Take employment rates:

From 1960 to 2000, black high school dropouts saw their employment rates drop 33 percentage points -- from 88.6 percent to 55.7 percent.
The decrease for white high school dropouts was only roughly half that -- from 94.1 percent to 76.0 percent.
Why would a boost in immigration effectively put more men, especially black men, behind bars? The authors put forward a straightforward theory: workers -- especially those with the lowest skills -- turn to crime to increase their income. Consider:

The rise in incarceration is most dramatic for the lowest-skilled black men; in 1980, it was just 1.3 percent and by 2000, it had skyrocketed to 25.1 percent.
Even blacks with a high school diploma saw incarceration rates increase from 0.5 percent to 9.8 percent in the same time period.
The authors stress that immigration is only one factor in the worsening labor situation of low-skilled African-American men. The 1980-2000 immigrant influx, therefore, only explains part of the decline in wages and employment, and the increase of the incarceration rates among blacks.

For text:

http://nber.org/digest/may07/w12518.html

The Rule of Law
Or lack thereof, is why Mexico is such a miserably failed and RACIST society. So what do they do? Export their undesirable and less racially "pure" citizens, whose peon mentality brings down this country. For the same reason, Russia's initial embrace of liberty is faltering badly; rampant and insidious lawlessness. Without law, there is only chaos.

Mr. Right is absolutely right! We need to start pressuring employers, eliminating sanctuaries, deporting criminals and strengthening border defense. If we don't make an effort to enforce existing laws, no amount of new ones will have any effect on people who are made comfortable ignoring the old ones. We don't need to deport 12 million illegals, but instead put so much pressure on them, instill some paranoia or at least a little uneasiness, and they'll either go home or seek historical means to become legal. This insanity of allowing a whole population to undermine the basic institutions of this once great country must stop.

This is an invasion in the true sense of the word. Illegal aliens don't want to assimilate and become part of the American Dream. They are creating Mexifornia, Arimexico, Nueovo Mexico, and Texicanna. La Raza and Reconquista is their ideology; anti-white, socialistic and punishment and retribution because we kicked their butts in 1846. They are as dangerous to the USA and what it stands for as Islamofacists who still carry grudges from 1000 years ago.

Illegals want all of the goodies but none of the responsibilities historically required of new immigrants, and pandering politicians are willing to give it all to them for shortsighted re-election goals. Washington D.C. is filled to the brim with craven, power hunger people of both parties, fiddling in concert while modern Rome (US) burns.

Maybe the the raucous cacophony of voices being raised over this issue will get our leaders' attention, but I have some doubts. Most R's and D's still don't understand what occurred in the '06 elections. They are willfully deaf, dumb and blind and being so handicapped and unable to listen to the voters, they need to be removed from office and replaced by a few good men.

And goofy Ron Paul isn't one of them. I'll take Fred or Newt for intelligence and common sense.

Secure Borders
Bush wants Secure Borders in IRAQ why not here in the USA?

Vic
Right on! If the fine for hiring illegals was $1 million per illegal and enforced, then the costs of hiring illegals would outweigh the benefits and the jobs would dry up. They will leave on their own if there are no jobs, no medical care, no welfare, etc. The only thing CEOs understand is cost/benefit analysis and the threat of doing jail time!

Bush and Kennedy are desperate
for friends. A perfect match?

a few facts
Bill Clinton & Al Gore setup the path ways for
illegal imigrants in 1993. President is at fault
for allowing it to continue.

Illegals are not picking cabbage & mowing lawns
as much as you think. they have opened tens of
thousands of stores & resturants.

There votes are to go to the socialist liberal
party, not democrats or republicans.
(dems. & reps.) feel the same way toward illegals.

I once saw a map showing what part of the US
should be returned to mexico.

It took lots of planning to set up where these
illegals were to be sent in places like Iowa,
Kentucky & Indiana. And these became evident in
1997 & 1998.

There are other things that i have noticed also,
but for time & space.=.=.


Citizenship
What is the purpose or benefit of citizenship if non-citizens enjoy the same rights and privaleges? I agree with Dr. K. I am a citizen and will be treated much more harshly by MY government that those who snuck in and are sucking money and benefits out of the system. I also agree with Rob regarding Social Security cards. If businesses were held accountable for hiring illegals then the illegals would have to go elsewhere to find work. I don't think it is practical to round up all the illegals, but it is possible to build a wall or formidable fence and it is possible to increase inforcement of proving legal status or citizenship to obtain employment. We have a right to control who gets welfare checks, food stamps, and other social program benefits. You didn't pay into this system; we did (and still do).
Personally I no problem with people coming here through legal channels in the numbers that our economy can support. I am offended by the signs I see at these protests claiming they are not illegal because this was their land first. Umm, I guess your education in Mexico, Guatamala or what ever Central or South American country you came from did not teach you facts (or did you go to school at all?). The land that is now Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California were all either paid for or won in war. You did not make these states what they are today, so shut the heck up. Oh and waiving your Mexican flags showing your "patriotism" for a country you have left because it is so corrupt that it can't support its own people is illogical. If it is so great, why didn't you stay there? Also, do you think waving that flag here is going to win you support here?

compelling images?

[e-mail to the major media]

To: Selected National Media

re: ILLEGAL "immigration"-- compelling images?

Larry King had a guest panel discussing ILLEGAL immigration tonight. At the end of the program, a latino offered a bowl of fruit allegedly picked by ILLEGAL aliens as an example of their contribution to America-- "doing those
jobs Americans won't do."

In closing, Larry King turned to Congressman Duncan Hunter and asked if he would like to comment on that image. Congressman Hunter said, "Yeah Larry-- we recently visited a Swift Meat plant where a raid had caught 800 ILLEGAL aliens-- Swift replaced them immediately with Americans who GOT THEIR JOBS BACK."

Analysis:
Among the myriad myths perpetrated by the self-aggrandizing apologists for ILLEGAL aliens, this myth of doing jobs otherwise undone is especially egregious and unctuous. Miscreant employers do milk the "cheaper" labor, BUT the EMPLOYERS pocket the savings-- the end product/service is very little cheaper in price, if any... then American TAXPAYERS and society bear the substantial concomitant costs pandemically associated with undereducated, indigent, ILLEGAL aliens-- e.g., crimes, drugs, gangs, dropouts, illegitimacies, decimated schools and enervated social service delivery systems, balkanization, and barrio blight.

Furthermore, ILLEGALS ARE displacing Americans in quite a lot of jobs as they and their miscreant employers break our laws, including dodging taxes. Some might call the burglar who breaks into a home an "uninvited guest," but putting lipstick on the pig does not lessen the crime. We would be FAR BETTER SERVED as a society and economy if employers hired LEGAL workers at fair wages.


College Professor
Business and Economics
Atlanta, Ga.

For those against this bill...
I see lots of criticism of the bill for granting
"amnesty" to illegal immigrants, however I dont see many suggestions from the critics as to how they would go about realistically solving this problem.

In other words, exactly how would the u.s. govt go about identifying, rounding up, and deporting 12 million illegal immigrants?

A question for those of you who say "enforcing the laws" is the solution.

Rules of Engagement
Modify the rules of engagement for our Border Patrol and we may have a chance of enforcing our borders. Our beloved country is now treating our agents as the criminals and not the illegal aliens.

Perhaps the slippery politicians who conjured up the latest attempt at amnesty could explain to the citizens of the USA the positive aspects of the proposed legislation. I meam the positive aspects for our country, not the illegal aliens.

Libertarians and the border
Perhaps one of my Libertarian friends can explain this to me. Most Libertarians support massive illegal immigration for the cheap labor. Yet they also abhor massive government spending and fear the welfare state (and rightly so).

So, do any of them believe that this huge number of illegals will end up in the middle class and not wedded to government welfare programs? Advocating one side of the Libertarian platform seems to undermine another side.

M S13
If this bill passes, all of the gang members, such as MS13 and others will become legal, and we can't deport even them.

I voted for this president, and I just hate what he is doing!! I'm ashamed for him and disappointed IN him.

Man the phones to Washington!

If I had any doubt that it is just one big
cluster xxxx up there in Washington, they have removed all doubt! Funny thing, though-- this thing is SO EGREGIOUS that it might be just what it takes to get Middle America properly aroused to rattle their cages in Washington. Fred Thompson is already saying that we should build the damm wall before even considering a bill. Mitt has dubbed it scamnesty-- these are good signs!

For those who want to join the fight to save America, please see my transfer post just below with a link that will take you right to your Senators' and Congresspersons' official phone numbers, web sites, e-mail addresses, etc.
_________________________________________________

Scamnesty: The Ultimate Largesse

Be afraid-- be VERY AFRAID! Congress, pushed relentlessly by the Conpiracy Of Evil, is poised to create a path to Scamnesty for 12-20 million ILLEGAL aliens. With "chain migration," that will mean MANY MORE millions of indigent poor-- and the permanent morphing of America into an entitlement government welfare state. The public trough will become a voracious, inexorable black hole devouring all that has made America great.

If you listen to the pro-ILLEGAL alien arguments by members of the Conspiracy Of Evil, they are like low-hangin' fruit to refute:

1) Disingenuous premises:
The "undocumented workers" are generally hard working, good people who simply want to feed their families and do those jobs that Americans won't do that America must have done.

Reality Check:
ILLEGALS are too often both poor and undereducated-- a formula for DISASTER if they are allowed to naturalize. We are simply allowing corrupt Mexico to dump its welfare problems on America. ILLEGALS drive down wages, and they ARE taking good jobs-- America does not save at all! A relative few hoteliers, contractors, meat processors, and other law-breaking employers milk them for lesser wages, then the TAXPAYERS GET STUCK with the crimes, barrio blight, drugs, gangs, sullied schools, ethnocentricity, and welfare costs. Bilingual education is a scam and an abysmal failure. ILLEGALS are at least 3x as likely as legal residents to be incarcerated for serious crimes:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

2) We should respect their "rights" and put those who have a job on a path to citizenship and require the payment of back taxes, learning English, and paying a $2,000 fine.

Truth Check--
HOGWASH! We owe them NOTHING! NO THING! We need to require a tamper-proof I.D. card ASAP for ANY non-citizen to function here period-- to work, get a license, attend school, rent an apt., pass go, etc. They will not really build the wall or otherwise crack down on employers-- the card radiates the cancer at its starting point. Make ILLEGALS repatriate to apply for it, then vet them thoroughly to see who might come back on an INTERIM basis to work. There should be NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between having been here ILLEGALLY and later gaining citizenship. Token fines and back taxes are a farce! Some would charge them a $2,000 fee when their ANNUAL cost to taxpayers (per Heritage) will be $22k just in net govt. services used alone for a family headed by an uneducated, poor ILLEGAL?!?!

Why is this such a vexing problem? Because different powerful users with ulterior agendas salivate over ILLEGALS --> the PC "elite" left sees poor, malleable voters (40 acres and a mule redux) who will assure big entitlement government for the Big Brother elites to control; miscreant employers see cheap labor that the taxpayers are forced to subsidize; the scandal-plagued Catholic Church sees replacement contributors; self-serving national pols see hispanic votes in key states; the well-heeled like their cheap domestic help-- and THEIR children will not have their private schools ruined by them; finally the latino groups quite simply indubitably seek the Reconquista-- the morphing of America into Mexicomerica.

Middle America MUST unite and stop Scamnesty which is again pending in Congress. You can learn more and/or get involved to save America at the sites below. First, an easy way to reach the OFFICIAL contact info for your Senators and Representatives to oppose the pending Scamnesty Bills:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

BOOKMARK IT AND BARK AT THEM OFTEN! It IS EASY-- just a few clicks!!!

Some say that it does no good to contact Congress... don't believe it! Middle Americans like you derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in the House last year! Congressman Peter King said he had NEVER seen such a revolt in the heartland in his many years in congress. BUT the Conspiracy Of Evil is determined to cram ILLEGALS down America's throats, so we MUST BE RELENTLESS in expressing our righteous indignation to stop Scamnesty. We won the first battle, but we MUST NOT LOSE THE WAR! Congressional staffers track the feedback... I get letters and e-mails back from Congresspersons who do not even represent me addressing my specific concerns. YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Other good sites are below... the first one is GREAT -- a well-organized group trying to save America from myopia... it has prepared e-mails addressing proposed legislation you can customize and/or just send to your elected representatives!:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=opposeamnesty&s_src=K0613&s_subsrc=olk0604&printer_friendly=1
http://www.immigrationcontrol.com/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/middecade/
http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200701/NAT20070110a.html

FOLKS, THE VERY SURVIVAL OF THE AMERICAN HERITAGE, RULE OF LAW, CULTURE, COMMON LANGUAGE, SOCIO-ECONOMIC STABILITY-- INDEED THE AMERICAN WAY IF LIFE ITSELF-- ARE IN DIRE JEOPARDY!

That "cheap" labor is nothing of the sort! Per Heritage, EACH household headed by an undereducated, ILLEGAL alien will cost taxpayers $22k a year in deficit taxes versus services used alone! And that is just the tip of the iceberg of their total costs (crime control, enervated schools, balkanized barrios)! GET INVOLVED TO STOP THE INVASION NOW FOLKS-- BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE! AMERICA WOULD BE A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!
______________________________________________

other perspectives:
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://www.libertygunrights.com/NAUFactSheet.pdf
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/NAU/
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/amnesty/index.shtml
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/immigration/index.shtmlMan the phones to Washington!
If I had any doubt that it is just one big
cluster xxxx up there in Washington, they have removed all doubt! Funny thing, though-- this thing is SO EGREGIOUS that it might be just what it takes to get Middle America properly aroused to rattle their cages in Washington. Fred Thompson is already saying that we should build the damm wall before even considering a bill. Mitt has dubbed it scamnesty-- these are good signs!

For those who want to join the fight to save America, please see my transfer post just below with a link that will take you right to your Senators' and Congresspersons' official phone numbers, web sites, e-mail addresses, etc.
_________________________________________________

Scamnesty: The Ultimate Largesse

Be afraid-- be VERY AFRAID! Congress, pushed relentlessly by the Conpiracy Of Evil, is poised to create a path to Scamnesty for 12-20 million ILLEGAL aliens. With "chain migration," that will mean MANY MORE millions of indigent poor-- and the permanent morphing of America into an entitlement government welfare state. The public trough will become a voracious, inexorable black hole devouring all that has made America great.

If you listen to the pro-ILLEGAL alien arguments by members of the Conspiracy Of Evil, they are like low-hangin' fruit to refute:

1) Disingenuous premises:
The "undocumented workers" are generally hard working, good people who simply want to feed their families and do those jobs that Americans won't do that America must have done.

Reality Check:
ILLEGALS are too often both poor and undereducated-- a formula for DISASTER if they are allowed to naturalize. We are simply allowing corrupt Mexico to dump its welfare problems on America. ILLEGALS drive down wages, and they ARE taking good jobs-- America does not save at all! A relative few hoteliers, contractors, meat processors, and other law-breaking employers milk them for lesser wages, then the TAXPAYERS GET STUCK with the crimes, barrio blight, drugs, gangs, sullied schools, ethnocentricity, and welfare costs. Bilingual education is a scam and an abysmal failure. ILLEGALS are at least 3x as likely as legal residents to be incarcerated for serious crimes:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

2) We should respect their "rights" and put those who have a job on a path to citizenship and require the payment of back taxes, learning English, and paying a $2,000 fine.

Truth Check--
HOGWASH! We owe them NOTHING! NO THING! We need to require a tamper-proof I.D. card ASAP for ANY non-citizen to function here period-- to work, get a license, attend school, rent an apt., pass go, etc. They will not really build the wall or otherwise crack down on employers-- the card radiates the cancer at its starting point. Make ILLEGALS repatriate to apply for it, then vet them thoroughly to see who might come back on an INTERIM basis to work. There should be NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between having been here ILLEGALLY and later gaining citizenship. Token fines and back taxes are a farce! Some would charge them a $2,000 fee when their ANNUAL cost to taxpayers (per Heritage) will be $22k just in net govt. services used alone for a family headed by an uneducated, poor ILLEGAL?!?!

Why is this such a vexing problem? Because different powerful users with ulterior agendas salivate over ILLEGALS --> the PC "elite" left sees poor, malleable voters (40 acres and a mule redux) who will assure big entitlement government for the Big Brother elites to control; miscreant employers see cheap labor that the taxpayers are forced to subsidize; the scandal-plagued Catholic Church sees replacement contributors; self-serving national pols see hispanic votes in key states; the well-heeled like their cheap domestic help-- and THEIR children will not have their private schools ruined by them; finally the latino groups quite simply indubitably seek the Reconquista-- the morphing of America into Mexicomerica.

Middle America MUST unite and stop Scamnesty which is again pending in Congress. You can learn more and/or get involved to save America at the sites below. First, an easy way to reach the OFFICIAL contact info for your Senators and Representatives to oppose the pending Scamnesty Bills:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

BOOKMARK IT AND BARK AT THEM OFTEN! It IS EASY-- just a few clicks!!!

Some say that it does no good to contact Congress... don't believe it! Middle Americans like you derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in the House last year! Congressman Peter King said he had NEVER seen such a revolt in the heartland in his many years in congress. BUT the Conspiracy Of Evil is determined to cram ILLEGALS down America's throats, so we MUST BE RELENTLESS in expressing our righteous indignation to stop Scamnesty. We won the first battle, but we MUST NOT LOSE THE WAR! Congressional staffers track the feedback... I get letters and e-mails back from Congresspersons who do not even represent me addressing my specific concerns. YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

Other good sites are below... the first one is GREAT -- a well-organized group trying to save America from myopia... it has prepared e-mails addressing proposed legislation you can customize and/or just send to your elected representatives!:

http://www.numbersusa.com/index

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20530
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=opposeamnesty&s_src=K0613&s_subsrc=olk0604&printer_friendly=1
http://www.immigrationcontrol.com/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/middecade/
http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200701/NAT20070110a.html

FOLKS, THE VERY SURVIVAL OF THE AMERICAN HERITAGE, RULE OF LAW, CULTURE, COMMON LANGUAGE, SOCIO-ECONOMIC STABILITY-- INDEED THE AMERICAN WAY IF LIFE ITSELF-- ARE IN DIRE JEOPARDY!

That "cheap" labor is nothing of the sort! Per Heritage, EACH household headed by an undereducated, ILLEGAL alien will cost taxpayers $22k a year in deficit taxes versus services used alone! And that is just the tip of the iceberg of their total costs (crime control, enervated schools, balkanized barrios)! GET INVOLVED TO STOP THE INVASION NOW FOLKS-- BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE! AMERICA WOULD BE A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE!
______________________________________________

other perspectives:
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://www.libertygunrights.com/NAUFactSheet.pdf
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/NAU/
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/amnesty/index.shtml
http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/immigration/index.shtml

Immigration "Reform" Law
The circumstances surrounding this bill's creation and, possible, passage remind me of the way the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was promulgated and passed. I fear that the effect on the nation will be even worse this time than with the FRA 1913, which is saying a lot.

We have the laws on the books to tighten the documentation and tax-compliance provisions for hiring workers. If we enforce them to the hilt, which will cost a lot less than building a fence that won't work (Are we really going to shoot people who hop the fence?), we will cut off illegals from making a living. They will return home, a trickle at first, then a flood.

At the same time, let's work to streamline the process of making new citizens. Maybe not speed it up, but make it clearer how to go about it and spell out the steps and timing on the way. There are a lot of good people, people who have played by the rules, who are caught in the INS mess and have to deal with a system that is too often arbitrary.

Illegals don't vote. That's a fact. American citizens do vote. Let's use the vote to vote in the people who will enforce the existing laws, if we can find any.

Barry

Left Angle
You must not be reading these posts and the many others over the past few days. The solution to deporting 12 million aliens is summarized as follows:
1. Enforce laws against employers hiring illegal aliens. Increase the fines and penalties, if necessary. Require social security number match with the names and addressed provided by the job applicant. (Enforce existing laws)
2. When an illegal alien is picked up in a worksite raid or for other crimes, detain them until the immigration stauts investigation is completed (no catch and release), then deport them. (Enforce existing laws).
3. We didn't round up and import 12 million illegal aliens, neither will we need to round up and deport 12 million illegal aliends. Once number 1 and 2 are in place, there is now a consequence to being illegal. The illegals found their way here with out rounding them up and bringing them here. They got here on their own, and if there is no incentive to stay but only negative consequences, we will not have to round them up for them to leave. They will leave on their own. (The consequence of enforcing the laws)
4. Protect our borders with walls, fences, detection devices, soldiers and guns (with orders to use them). This is a basic task to protect sovereignty of country that our government has failed miserably at. (Enforcing border laws and illegal entry laws).


Left Angle
1) Substantill fines for any company who hires anyone who can not prove they are a citizen of this country.
2) Run a search on anyone who applies for public assistance with the federal, state or local governments. That search should be paid for by potential recipient and it is their burden to prove that they are legal citizens.
3) Fingerprint everyone who applies for a drivers license and set up a database with CITIZENS of this country. No match , you get deported.
Any contact with law enforcement can access this data base. No citizen, automatic deportation. It may take time, but this nonsense will eventually stop when the reward is not worth the risk.







Could someone please explain to me
Why it was "unrealistic" in 1986 to round up and deport 3 million illegal aliens?

Here are some stats to ponder:
(1) in 1971, at least 10 million refugees poured into India from East Pakistan
(2) in 1947, 7 million Muslims went from remainder-India into newly-created Pakistan and 6 million Hindus/Sikhs from Pakistan to India

Both the examples I've shown, the numbers are far larger than the 3 million figure used to justify amnesty.

And don't tell me that transport in 1947 (or 1971) India was far better than that in 1986 US!

various.
There is a lot that is problematic about the immigration bill as it has been presented. In particular, the guest worker program could create a kind of lower caste with no reason to care for the country. And it is not clear why this would be expected to stem the tide of illegal immigration if the costs of going through the process is higher than the cost of going around it.

It is also worrisome to lose the family focused immigration policies since they have traditionallty been important for integrating immigrants into the country. Immigrants who cannot bring their families over are less likely to develop loyalty to the country.

That said, there are a couple of bits of nonsense in the Sowell argument. One is that the last amnesty caused the influx of illegal immigrants. Actually economic conditions caused the influx, and there are no proposals on the table that would change the economic disparities. Sowell's proposal is a heavier use of prisons, but given that we already have overcrowded prisons, that would make dealing with illegal immigrants very expensive without much balancing benefits. And it is not overly likely that it would stem the tide anyway.

The other absurdity, reflected in many of the comments as well, is that the problem of illegal immigration is that the immigrants are evil because illegal. There are many serious issues with illegal immigration, but that is not one of them. Just as with most of our ancestors who came to the country for economic reasons, the immigrants, both legal and illegal, tend to be people who are willing to take risks and work hard to advance themselves and their families. These are qualities America wants (although ideally in numbers that are manageable).

We have periodically offered tax amnesties where it is felt that it would be better to collect some money and get people right with the law then to insist on full payment and get nothing. There are laws which make people dangers to society, and laws which we put in place as necessary evils. Tax laws and immigration laws are of the second kind. They are things that are necessary although it would be nice if they were not. It is silly to confuse them for laws of the first type, and to equate illegal immigrants with rapists and burglars.

Fines for companies...
that use illegal aliens will only be looked at as a cost of doing business. The real solution is 6 months in a prison for the CEO and the board of directors for any company found hiring illegal aliens.

Companies pass the cost of doing business on to the consumers. It is not easy to pass the 6 months in the slammer to the consumer.

Blatant Idiocy
The Dems would love to see 40 million uneducated, lower class voters in the Party's future. It's a formula that worked with Blacks; might as well repeat it. Extend amnesty, create handout addictions, preach victimhood, pander for votes from the downtrodden, recruit those actually working into unions (who overwhelmingly support Dems), promise even more benefits, ad nauseam.

Meanwhile the SW US and SoCal will effectively become Northern Mexico, a process already well underway. Taxes will go out of sight to pay the benefits (This is bad enough already and rapidly getting worse.). Eventually the English-speaking US will be maybe 10 states in the northern heartland surrounded by the fence that was never built in time to prevent the disintegration. Extreme? I think not, if the Dims get their way.

Yeah, right...
We "can't" find them. We "can't" deport them. But we are going to make them pony up five grand each?

How long before someone legislates a "compassionate waiver" of that "horrible, unfair, punitive fine"? I bet Kennedy already has the bill drafted and is just waiting for the ink to dry on the president's amnesty signature.

To svpallava who writes:
Could someone please explain to me
Why it was "unrealistic" in 1986 to round up and deport 3 million illegal aliens?

If the Administration branch of our government does not have the will to enforce the law then it becomes "unrealistic". If a law is not enforceable the President should veto the bill. If a President signs a bill and then does not enforce it he should be removed from office.

Our government will only work if each branch does what they are empowered to do by the Constitution. Since the Constitution is a dead letter now all we can expect from our government is power grabbing and pandering to the big money.

Our country is a wreck. We need a new Revolutionary War. We need to go on the offensive and kick these tired windbags out of office and put some people in office, who only want to serve one term and go home. Citizens of America you can not sit on the sidelines any longer. Get off you backsides and get involved.

Levi...
...I made a comment about you being a new poster because of your comment to Loyal Democrat.Those who have been here awhile know LD is a satirist,so they don't get upset with him.Nothing personal.

Mr. Right
I like your no benefits for illegals idea, but you need to stop two other groups: illegal alien workers and illegal alien criminals.

The solution is easy (if cruel):

Fines punitive enough to bankrupt companies caught knowingly hiring illegals.

Capital punishment for those committing felonies while in the US illegally. (And immediate deportation for those committing misdemeanors while here illegally.)

Those two measures would likely cause a good deal of the self-deportation we need. Without jobs, and with crime being more risky in the US than Mexico, the workers and criminals would quickly self-deport. If we then follow your suggestion to cut off social service benefits, the rest would do the same. We might be left with a few too destitute to self-deport, but we could always "compassionately" ship them back south of the border.

I know I am going to get bashed for cruelty in my suggestions, but note I only suggest doing harm to those already doing wrong, so how cruel is it? And, if we are serious about or borders, what other measures will have a similar likelihood of success?

Who says they want citizenship?

.....Why buy a cow if milk is free? ...the instant