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Thursday, April 19, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Trail of Slime
by Thomas Sowell
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District Attorney Michael Nifong has apologized to the Duke University students he indicted for rape for "judgments that ultimately proved to be incorrect."

Contrary to the fashionable phrase, "mistakes were made," there is no reason to believe that any mistake was made by District Attorney Nifong in this case, or that he misjudged anything other than miscalculating what he could get away with.

Nothing that Michael Nifong did is consistent with his ever believing that the Duke University students were guilty. If he really thought they were guilty and expected to go to trial and convict them, then the rigged photo lineup he arranged could have been enough to get the case thrown out of court.

This column predicted in April a year ago that this case would never go to trial because it was obvious even then that discovering the guilt or innocence of the accused was not District Attorney Nifong's real goal.

What served Nifong's purposes was keeping this case alive long enough for him to win his election as district attorney.

A real lineup, conducted according to well-established rules, could have revealed early on that the stripper who accused Duke lacrosse players of rape didn't have a clue who they were. That would have killed the case and destroyed Nifong's trump card -- the race card -- for winning the black vote.

The district attorney's failure to interview either the accuser or the accused for months likewise suggests someone who was more concerned with avoiding the premature collapse of his case before election time than with finding out what really happened.

Ironically, it was a black taxi driver who provided the first evidence that the charge was false. He said that one of the accused was in his cab, going to a bank, at the time the rape was supposed to have occurred.

That taxi driver was subsequently brought in for police interrogation on a wholly unrelated matter and grilled for hours before being released, without being charged with anything.

Little, if anything, was heard from that taxi driver again about the Duke rape case. Apparently he got the message.

It later turned out that a bank security camera with date and time confirmed what the taxi driver had said, since it showed one of the accused Duke students taking money out of an ATM at the time when he was supposedly committing rape.

During the current investigation of ethics charges against District Attorney Nifong by the North Carolina Bar Association, one of the things that might be well worth investigating is whether Nifong had anything to do with the harassment or intimidation of a witness whose testimony could have undermined his case.

Another damaging action that Nifong has tried to portray as an oversight on his part was failing to disclose that the DNA evidence from the panties and nearby areas of the accuser showed that a number of other men had had contact there, even though none of the Duke students' DNA was found.

It might seem plausible that a busy district attorney might have forgotten to include that. But the sworn testimony of the head of the laboratory that conducted the DNA tests is that Nifong specifically asked him not to reveal that fact.

That was not an oversight or a misjudgment. That was a deliberate attempt to suppress evidence in a felony case.

When it finally came out, months after the indictment of the Duke students, that the stripper who accused them could not even be sure that a rape had occurred -- despite her previous various accounts of rape -- only the rape charge was dropped, while other serious felonies still hung over the students' heads, based on the same unreliable accuser.

It is hard to believe that Nifong believed that these other charges would stand up in court. But they didn't have to.

After months of mounting pressure and growing legal bills, many people would have plea-bargained, "confessed" to something minor, just to get the nightmare over with.

Such a "confession" might have spared Nifong from being hauled up before the state bar association on ethics charges.

Everything in this case, from start to finish, makes perfect sense when seen as being about Nifong's career, not justice.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Although Nifong is the chief culprit...
... let us remember that his opportunism was fed by the racial animosity of his black voting base.

As a black American, I know first-hand that a significant part of the identity of many blacks is their reflexive mistrust of any white person who is not an avowed leftist. I have even talked to a few fellow blacks who have given me the impression that they feel less identifiable as black if their white conservative auto-condemnation switch is turned off.

In a sense, his black voting base made something of a monstrous loose cannon of Nifong. Fortunately for them, the cannon was consistently pointed at those innocent white students instead of everyone who was gunning for them. As Sowell has written, though, many of us will suffer a look down the barrel of that device in the long run, if Nifong doesn't go down as a result of what he did.


-- M. Cooper

A fragmentation bomb in society
This whole case has been a fragmentation grenade tossed into society, doing serious damage to a number of groups. Among the groups damaged are:

* Rape victims. If people take this case to heart, a woman will have to prove she fought "to within an inch of her life" before her accusation of rape will be accepted by any district attorney.

* Blacks. These people will be seen by others as gullible. All a politician needs to do is railroad a white scapegoat, and whether the case is well-founded, ill-founded, or a transparent fabric of lies, they'll buy it, take it home, and hang it over the mantelpiece.

* District Attorneys offices. This case, in the words of Portia, "will be taken and noted as a precedent." In this highly-publicized case, we saw three innocent men railroaded. We saw evidence falsified, standard procedures violated, and exculpatory evidence ignored. We can only guess about what goes on outside the glare of publicity.

* The concept of impartial justice. People who have no assurance of obtaining justice from the courts will turn elsewhere. In the criminal world, where you can't bring a dispute into court, disputes are settled by more violent means.

Mike Nifong has injured millions of people, and seriously damaged faith in the legal system. He needs to be punished in a manner commesurate with this.

And frankly, the only thing that would damage this trust worse is if he escapes with a slap on the wrist.

Karl
How right you are! Nifong should be made and example of and thrown in prison!

How about
...looking at cases by the evidence? When people get caught up in racial manipulations instead of considering facts, emotions take the place of judgment. I wonder, as well, why 'the black community' trusts leftists more than conservatives. Is the guy who promises you reparations and plays 'get-back' games helping employment or unwed birth statistics?

I watch what people do and what their programs produce. A conservative sees failure, identifies it, and tries something else. A liberal sees failure and calls the conservative names for not increasing the funding by 80% or more. Honestly, which approach makes more sense?

This case was brought to stir up hatred for white students and 'elites', I believe, because someone wanted to put on a show. Get Mickey Rooney and Judy Garland to help out next time.

Goshawk: Absolutely
Prosecutorial misconduct, malicious prosecution, suppression of evidence, malfeasance,....

There is a plethora of charges that can and should be levelled at this cretin. At the very least disbarred, but I agree that the Greybar Hotel should be in his future.

See how HE likes it!


this is such a mirror on society
LOOK, THOSE PRIVELEDGED WHITE MEN ARE SO EVIL PICKING ON THE INNOCENT BLACK WOMAN WHO IS JUST WORKING TO FEED HER KIDS. LET THE STATE COME IN AND EXACT JUSTICE ON THEM! THE PERFECT STATE THAT DOES NOTHING WRONG!

at the start of the case, just about every liberal stereotype was there. and by the end of the case, every one of those stereotypes blew up in their faces.

if this case doesn't convince any libs that their view of the world is completely bassackwards, nothing will.

From what I read:
Liberals see this just like Bush's 'military scandal' - The proof is wrong, but the idea is right. It's what SHOULD happen to rich white boys who DARE to harass in any way a poor black women just trying to make a dollar.

They will NEVER learn - but I bet Nifong will..

Mr. Cooper:
Great post. Your comments are poignant and revealing. Nifong is a politician. The people who only required that he pander to their sensibilities are also at fault. Put it this way: if there is a political position, someone will want to fill it. They will do whatever necessary to be elected. Nifong is not unique. Society must change so better men get elected the administration of justice must be made less democratic.

The Duke travesty demonstrates, again, the wisdom of Publius in setting up an independent judiciary. Whether we have lived up to this ideal is a different story.

BrianR
I feel for all the players and coach. They all got punished by that stripper and nyfong. Throw both of them in jail.

Slime...
Nifong is slime, indeed. Let's see if justice is served and he gets what he deserves.

Nifong's Rule
Nifong replaced the criminal justice system in North Carolina with his own system that was designed to advance his professional career.

He found an accomplice named Mangum, although she didn't know she was. She was simply trying to play the race card on some "rich, privileged white boys", for reasons known only to her.

Both need to be in prison for a few years.

Duke University needs to pony up a few million to the Dukies, their coach, and to the general public. Yes, I know that the "general public" were merely spectators in the farce, but Duke U. needs to build some parks, or fill pot holes on I-40 or something.

The Duke 88 needs to be sued, too, along with Shabazz and his "New" Blank (oops! BLACK) Panthers. (Fantasy: Shabazz and his black racists in the same prison cell with the Duke 88 libpukes. Who'd be whose punk?)

Katie Couric needs to be sued, too. I know she had nothing to do with the Dukies; I just don't like her.

Nifong Alone?
It's real easy to join the crowd on this one, Nifong's a first class slimeball and should go out on the same garbage scow as Don Imus with Al Sharpton rowing.

But right behind him should be the President of Duke University and right behind them the students who hired these "ladies" in the first place.

Fraternities who persist in creating atmospheres like this on college campuses should be decertified by their Headquarters as an aftermath of this horror story but lets not forget how and why it got started, shall we?


DavidMac
Totally agree with your post. And, right, Katie Couric needs to go too. I'm sure she had something to do with this. She no doubt thought the lacrosse players were slime to begin with.:>

Nifong's actions were political. Which shows us again how far and how low these pols will go to get elected.

http://peppermintsplace.townhall.com
Chapter 14 up for those reading the diary.

logic
We base our decisions on emotion justify them with logic.

Wrong pepole
One of the accused's family was on 60 Minutes several months age. I didn't see the program, but an ad for it had the mother saying to the effect that Nifong had picked on the wrong family, and would pay for his mistake 'for the rest of his life'. Looks like she was right. I foresee a suit to recover legal expenses ahead. I don't know if the law allows Nifong to be held responsible for those bills, but I certainly hope so. The bills were probably around a $million per accused, it sure would be nice to see Nifong lose everything he has before being hauled off to prison. Boy would I love to be the judge sentencing him! And can you imagine the plight of a prosecutor in prison. He surely won't lack for "attention", especially if he has the misfortune to be in with someone he put there. Now there's a good reality program: "Survivor; Cell Block C". Take plenty of Vaseline with you, Mike.

Kudos to Dr. Sowell
For keeping this story alive and laying out the facts for us.

This is one of the most terrifying examples of tyranny to raise its head in some time.


"Justice" on trial
How many jurors now will consider the police and prosecutor's "evidence" with a jaundiced eye?

Nifong has done more to subvert whatever "justice" man is capable of to his own cupidity. A jury - at least any jury that is aware of INNOCENT young men (the SC Attorney General's words, not mine) being "Nifonged" - will surely wonder about and possibly dismiss evidence, no matter how compelling, because their prosecutor could be another Nifong.

Nifong needs to be charged with conspiracy to obstruct justice and needs to spend considerable time behind bars. As should Ms. Mangan (sp?). And I would not be averse to some media types joining them - after all, they joined them in this witchhunt, no?


pjal
Both taking off one's clothes for money, and paying money to do so, are entirely legal. Trumping up a false prosecution is not, neither is witness harassment by the District Attorney.

Please keep your private morality out of this please. I am getting awfully tired of the Bible-thumpers coyly suggesting that the lacrosse players got nothing more than what they deserved, blast their sinnin' souls! No one whose behavior stays within the bounds of the Law deserves to have the legal system used to maliciously or wantonly destroy their lives.

pjal's response
is enlightening. It seems impossible for some people to avoid blaming the victims. That's like holding someone responsible for being broadsided, because thay should have known better than to buy a car. Like it or not, there's probably not a heterosexual male alive over the age of twenty-five who has never attended an event or venue where women are hired to disrobe for their viewing pleasure. Feel free to find it immoral; many forms of commerce are immoral in someone's eyes. That doesn't make it illegal, and it doesn't justify the ruination of someone's life and reputation. Good grief. This case was not about whether or not they should have had a party and hired strippers. It was about a skanky two-bit hooker with twelve other mens' DNA in and on her making false accusations, and on opportunistic glop of offal in a suit acting in the most unprofessional way imaginable to further his ambition.

planting ground
Well said. Though the comparison that came to mind for me had nothing to do with getting in a car accident:

"Well look at the way she was dressed, and in THAT part of town, she was just ASKING FOR IT..."

pjal on your 3:43 A.M. rant -
while I can't disagree with your comments about the good Mr. Nifong, the rest of your post sounds like a typical liberal ... blaming everyone else, including the victims!

What the frat members did is not illegal - maybe not too bright, but not illegal.

You seem to espouse Jesse Jackson's recent comments about the case, when he accused such acts (watching strippers) as promoting sexual abuse.

Personally, I find that to be quite a stretch, and your condemnation of the students (with no first-hand knowledge I might add) to be a bit sanctimonious.

By the way - doesn't Jesse have a love child? How is it that he (and other Hipocrits) always seem to forget their own indiscretions???

True justice:
If there really is a justice system in this country, Nifong will be disbarred and imprisoned for a few decades, and his estated sued into permanent poverty. What this dirtbag did was utterly dispicable, and this idiot deserves the absolute worst.

A Trail of Slime
Unfortunately, this may only be the tip of the iceberg.

Justice, which the Code of Criminal Procedure says should be the overriding goal of every criminal prosecution, more often than not takes a back seat to political aspirations and winning a guilty verdict.

Hopefully, this incident will mark the point at which these kinds of prosecutors, and their unscrupulous tactics, will begin be more closely scrutenized by the larger community. This would, indeed, serve everyone's best interest.

Don't Forget The 88 "Professors"
Who were all too eager to condemn and who now deny their reprehensible actions. They should ALL be fired with prejudice.

But that will never happen in the liberal la-la land of Academe. But a guy can dream, can't he?

pjal was correct
Nobody is suggesting, or even implying, that false accusation is acceptable in any way.

What we're talking about is ordinary wisdom. If you hang with slimy people, bad things happen. Gripe all you want about common behavior by young people, gripe all you want about "jamming your morals down our throats," this is true whether you like it or not. No, hiring a stripper is not illegal; but if you hire strippers, there's a decent chance you're hiring someone with issues, and sometimes their issues are going to bite you. If you've got sense, you don't hire strippers, and you never have any problem.

nifong
He will probably get off with wrist slapping.Similar to Sandy Berger.The tax payers will foot the bill,as will the contribitors to Duke.It is important also that the policeman that were complicit in this should be named and fired.The sad part is that this is the kind of justice blacks have endured for years.This I believe is why they don't trust the law.Problem is they blame repubs for this,but it is usually dems that railroad them

Karl and Navymom
Your post is very prophetic in that it looks at the extended and lasting damage Nifong has caused. Your words should be noted in every law school in the country as well as social work classrooms. Very well done.

The profiles you presented about liberal vs. conservative responses in critical situations is spot-on. Thanks.

Dr. Sowell knocks another one of the park. His intellectual and academic sobriety is nothing short of amazing. Now, to get him to run for president.

It says a lot...
..about news reporters when they interview people like Spike Lee instead of Dr. Sowell. Better to hear a black leftist with no credentials or insight than an honest man who has a truckload of both.

Do not forget the legal sexism
Do not forget how sexism factored into this disaster. The current rape laws are quite quaint.

Here is my view on the state of law / rape / society…

The foundation of our rape laws are based on outdated concepts. According to the law, rape is one of the MAJOR crimes with provisions for serious punishment (second only to murder). I believe the foundation for this comes from: 1) Society expected women to protect their virtue; 2) A woman’s virtue was highly regarded by society; 3) Society (men) were obligated to protect a woman’s virtue; 4) Women are weak and need protection.

In today’s society, a woman’s virtue is not prized (by the woman or society). Sexuality is nothing more than recreation today. Women and men are free to participate in most any sexual act that can be dreamed without social repercussion. Women are no longer considered weak and helpless… women are equal.

Now consider the fact that nearly everybody, both male and female, voluntarily has sex (this has been true throughout time). Now consider the fact that the female party can claim rape after a sexual encounter (or even if no sexual encounter happened), and the male is at risk of prosecution and imprisonment based on the word of one witness.

Furthermore, there are rape shield laws that allow the female to hide behind a cloak of privacy. These laws also constrain what can be presented to a jury for consideration. These laws violate the standard operating procedures for most criminal complaints and prosecutions – the accused can publicly confront the accuser.

This legal and social situation is clearly badly broken.

Now look at the statistics published by the DOJ… in 1997 15,000 men were in prison for rape. The average sentence for rape is approximately 15 years. The DOJ released a report on the results from post-conviction DNA testing of imprisoned men and found 25% of the men’s DNA did not match the evidence… these men did not even have sex with the accuser! These men served an average of 7 years in prison before they were exonerated by science. The report goes on to say that an additional 20% of the post-conviction testing was inconclusive.

Thousands of men have wasted away for years in prison because of false accusation of rape!

Here is a scary question… of the 55% to 75% of men who matched the DNA evidence, how many actually committed rapes, and how many had consensual sex and later accused of rape? Other studies have shown that 45% to 55% of rape accusations are false.

It is time to update our rape laws to reflect society’s current standards. We also need to implement police and prosecutorial procedures to reduce the numbers of false rape accusations. Finally, we need to eliminate rape shield laws.

Feminists continually claim that rape is an under-reported crime. After looking at the scientific evidence, it is evident to me that rape is maliciously and grossly over reported.

We need to end legal chivalry in a feminized world!

To learn more go to the DOJ website http://justice.gov/. You will find all the statistics on convictions and imprisonment. You will also find the report “Convicted by Juries and Exonerated by Science” – unless it has already been purged by the feminist propaganda police.

Moratorium on Rape Prosecutions
Illinois has a moratorium on the death penalty, because too many innocents found themselves on death row for crimes committed by someone else.

Since we know that too many innocents get prosecuted for rapes WHICH DID NOT EVEN HAPPEN, there should be a moratorium on rape prosecutions.

Milo & Karl...

Milo: “Although Nifong is the chief culprit…let us remember that his opportunism was fed by the racial animosity of his black voting base.”

Karl: “Blacks. These people will be seen by others as gullible. All a politician needs to do is railroad a white scapegoat, and whether the case is well-founded, ill-founded, or a transparent fabric of lies, they’ll buy it, take it home, and hang it over the mantelpiece.”

Try to check your facts not your talking points:

The district attorney prosecuting the rape case against three of Duke University’s lacrosse players received significant support from both black and white voters in the recent Durham primary, according to a voting analysis by Vanderbilt University political scientist Christian Grose.

“Given that about the same percentage of blacks and whites supported Michael Nifong, the results do not suggest a racially divided city,” Grose said.

Just over half (50.6 percent) of the total number of white voters cast their ballots for Freda Black, the other white candidate in the race. She also received support from 25.2 percent of the black voters. Meanwhile, the only African-American candidate in the race for district attorney, Keith Bishop, received 30.8 percent of the black vote and 3.2 percent of the white/nonblack vote.

Nifong received a larger percentage of the black vote than the other two contenders, but he did not get a majority of the black vote. His percentage of the white vote was slightly less than 50 percent (44% of the black vote).

“Nifong basically did well among both blacks and whites, demonstrating that Durham voters do not seem to be polarized along racial lines, at least on this issue,” Grose said.



Dissenter 57
The problem is Politics and it is in every District Attorney's office. Close behind Politics is a simple rule called "Judicial Immunity". Hook the two together and you have a made for television pornographic story about politicians using the bodies of citizens as stepping stones to office. The worst case I can remember is buried somewhere in the SW editions of Court Reporter. It is called, "Sparks v. Duvall County". In this one the plaintiff, Sparks, had been convicted by three politicians, a crooked sheriff, a more crooked district attorney and an immoral and crooked judge. His case had been reversed and he tried to sue the three who had railroaded him but his suit was blocked by "Judicial Immunity". The opinion of the deciding court agreed that the officials had acted in a criminal manner in convicting Sparks but at the same time had acted under cloak of their judicial duties and where thussly not liable to legal proceedings because of the "Judicial Immunity".
Dallas County, Texas had a District Attorney, Henry Wade, who made the statement in a speech, "The Constitution does not apply in Dallas County." He probably railroaded more innocent people than any DA in the country. But they all do that. District Attorneys do not care about innocence or guilt. Their reelection hangs on how many bad guys they put away in their last term. They only care about whether there is enough to get a conviction and have one more notch on their gun for the next election. Nor do Assistant DA's have any more regard for innocence or guilt than the Head DA. Assistant DA's only want another conviction and another gold star by their name on the wall in the Head DA's office. Nifong did nothing a few thousand DA's across the country don't do every day. His only mistake was in picking 3 rich boys for his pidgeons. Three families with enough money to hire GOOD legal help. Otherwise those young men would be stamping out license plates today.

FergusMacLennan
Taking off your clothes for money may be legal, filing false rape charges is not.

to Oldschoolskills:
You're right. The toxic effect of catering to blacks does extend beyond the black population itself. It also reinforces the leftist white prejudice which sees blacks as inferior, and in need of special protection.

One point, though:

"Nifong received a larger percentage of the black vote than the other two contenders, but he did not get a majority of the black vote. His percentage of the white vote was slightly less than 50 percent (44% of the black vote)."

He doesn't seem to have *needed* a majority of the black vote. Getting the plurality (in addition to the other votes he received) of that bloc seems to have been sufficient.

The whole study of which voting blocs are considered important in political campaigns is a bit of statistical voodoo I hear much about, but which I haven't studied in detail.

JohnnyP
You have a point about a woman's virtue no longer being valued in our society and everybody having sex.

However you are forgetting that rape has more to do with violence and control than with sex.

My husband was called to the scene of a 6' man who had been raped at gunpoint, the fact that he was a sexually active man did nothing to prevent his feeling broken, worthless and helpless.

Put yourself in the victims place.

Maybe if women who file false charges faced the same sentence as men convicted of rape we wouldn't have to worry about false convictions.

Mike Nifong deliberately undermined the
justice system in the US. He should be sentenced to life in prison with hard labor so that any other grist-head thinks long and hard about railroading innocent people.

Sowell misses the point again.
Maybe this is race or not. I does not matter. It is another example of our justice system being broken. It is the drive for power and/or money by unscrupulous lawyers at play in this and most court cases. This attorney was just incompetent and could not pull it off.

We are a country of greed. We have no values beyond what is good for #1. To use calls of racism only perpetuates this divisive issue. Sowell is becoming increasing myopic by the day. Its all about what is good for his rich friends and race. Lets deal with values for all.

There is no justice anymore, only purchased judgment. It is not the rule of law anymore, it the rule of money and power.

Will Nifong be Punished?
I'm not sure. Does anybody remember the name of the "McMartin" case prosecutor? For that matter does anyone remember the "McMartin" case?

Karl, I understand why you feel that way
but I'm going to disagree with you.

A great, great service was performed for all those groups. People know things that they didn't know before, and they can get to work on fixing some things.

Women do lie about rape. Prosecutors do lie about evidence. The black community has a couple of blind spots.

Before this case, incorrect assumptions about how the world was working hid these problems from sight. Now they have a chance of being addressed.

...

It's a good observation that Nifong himself probably always knew the charges were false.

Sizzlelean, Tree

SizzleLean,
Please read my 11:18 post. Prosecutorial misconduct is nothing new. The more convictions a DA's office has, the more votes he will receive in the next election. England did away with the Grand Jury/District Attorney system years ago because of the circus politics can make of a trial.

Tree,
I remember the McMartin case.
Is the McMartin case over yet? I know they were held without bail for several years on trumped up child molesting charges. Seems like I remember the mother McMartin died from the stress and the son copped to a plea of some sort. I think the villain in that case was more the social worker with an overactive imagination and an evil mind. Talk about an Orwellian nightmare and witch hunt. But there, again, the McMartins did not have the money for legal aid that the Duke boys had.

Tree
I remember the McMartin case but I doubt anything happened to that prosecutor. However, times have changed since then and if nifong gets away with this, with today's media, then justice will have been raped not served.

For uniondude
Unfortunately, you're probably right. Unlike Ramos and Compean (who were jailed for shooting at AN ILLEGAL ALIEN SMUGGLER), Nifong will only get "wrist-slapped". He needs to be fired, PERMANENLY DISBARRED, and given a long stretch in a greybar--with identifying sign under his prison number of "disgraced former DA".

And Patrick Fitzgerald?
He too withheld evidence. He knew from the first day of his tenure as special prosecutor that Richard Armitage was the culprit in leaking Plame's ID to Novak. Yet, he told the public, Congress, and the President that the investigation was ongoing, and he needed to widen it to all crimes associated with it. His fishing expedition netted an innocent man: Scooter Libbey.

Fitzgerald mislead the people, Congress, and the President. He ruined one man's life, who may in fact go to jail.

svpallava
"Unfortunately, you're probably right. Unlike Ramos and Compean (who were jailed for shooting at AN ILLEGAL ALIEN SMUGGLER)"

No they were sent to prison for trying to cover up the shooting, had they filed the report on time and not tampered with the evidence at the scene, they would still have their jobs and freedom. While I love the Border Patrol a bad agent is a bad agent and deserves no special treatment.


Paula Jo – thanks for your comments.
Paula Jo – thanks for your comments.

I did not forget that rape is a sexual violation that has a component of force (aka violence). But also keep in mind that rape is primarily a sexual act. It is a disservice to try to categorize rape as primarily a violent act. If rape was primarily an act of violence, we would see significantly more instances of impulsive men beating strange women in dark alleys (this is a rare event).

One of the points I am trying to make is that with today’s social standards, rape does not warrant 15 year prison sentences. Society has chosen to downgrade sex from a sacred intimate event to mere recreation. If sex is important to society, then hard rape penalties are warranted. If sex is not very important, maybe the penalties for rape should be the same as simple battery.

We cannot have things both ways… we need to choose if something is important to society or not. It is a tradeoff.

Your example of a raped man (I assume it was a homosexual rape) is not very common. Furthermore, it points out another dilemma… homosexuality used to be taboo, but is no longer. If society thinks homosexuality is “normal”, then this rape should be a relatively minor legal issue also. By the way, I think homosexual rape is exceedingly rare. This is probably the case because homosexual men tend to be very promiscuous… thus it is easy for them to find anonymous sex with no strings attached. Many heterosexual men vent this sexual desire with prostitutes if a willing partner is not available.

As a society, we are injecting police and prosecutors into an ambiguous situation and asking them to determine if an extremely common act was consensual or forced. The consequences of an incorrect judgment is disastrous – a type one error sends an innocent person to jail for 15 years, and a type two error leaves a criminal unpunished.

Your comment about having serious consequences for false accusations of rape may be a good way to fix the situation. The current standard operating procedure for law enforcement is to not hold false accusers accountable – and I am sure it exacerbates a bad social / legal situation.

Johnnyp
"One of the points I am trying to make is that with today’s social standards, rape does not warrant 15 year prison sentences."

Rape is still one of the most personal of all violent crimes. It is a sexual violation of a person, against their will. 15 years is not enough for rapists. 25-life, first offense, would be closer to fair.

That some in society see it as recreation, doesn't make it any more right for somebody to force themselves on another. That's always been wrong, despite other sexual attitudes.


modernone:
Three questions.

First: Huh?
Dr. Sowell’s point, as I understood it, was that Nifong pursued this case in a quest for money and power. Maybe I read another article.

Second: What?
Dr. Sowell mentions that Nifong used the race issue to get favor with the black population. You say it doesn’t matter if this is about race or not. You then say that using calls of “racism only perpetuates this divisive issue.” Next you say that Dr. Sowell is pursuing this for his “race.”

Third: How do you expect justice to prevail anywhere with prosecutors like Nifong running around? See Karl’s post. He nailed it.

I had totally forgotton
about the cab driver in this affair. it appears that he has actionable cause also.

Hey all you ambulance chasers in NC, here is a good cause for you and potential millions from the taxpayers of Durham County.

Gabby
You forgot Spitzer and his shakedown of corporations to pave his way into office. Just because he shook down the rich and the hated he got away with it, and even got rewarded. He deserves a place in hell beside Ronnie Earle and Nifong.

Patriot - that's a good one
25 to life? I hope you are not on my jury if I every happen to have a vindictive girl friend. I also hope I am not on your jury if you ever have a vindictive partner.

Do you think we should reinstate summary execution for horse thievery?


Society has chosen new rules for sexuality – that argument is over… it is time for some laws to catch up.

It is a trade off, and it is time to choose. One of the classic tactics of feminism is to avoid the trade offs and claim progressive privileges while maintaining traditional privileges. This all artfully happens with no obligations beng added.

I say again… chivalry has no place in law.

Is rape wrong? Of course.

Considering the current legal rules, error rates, inherent ambiguity of the situation, and societal norms, should we imprison people for 15 years? Of course not.

Empowerment of Creeps
No recent case has more "illuminated" the problem that blacks have with white liberals and the race-baiting hucksters like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. It's all about empowerment. Keep the black ghetto-dwellers in a constant state of victimization so that scum like Nifong, Sharpton, and Jackson can "use" them for their own nefarious purposes, like buying votes and keeping oneself at the forefront of power. If blacks ever decided that they are the one's most responsible for their situation and have the ability to change it for the better, then creeps like the Big Three have no power and can be cast aside. Such a prospect scares these toads dungless. Ask Clarence Thomas what happens to "uppity niggers" who find they don't need the SharpJackfongs telling them how to vote and how to respond in the politically correct fashion.

Johnnyp
"Patriot - that's a good one
25 to life? I hope you are not on my jury if I every happen to have a vindictive girl friend. I also hope I am not on your jury if you ever have a vindictive partner."

You better hope I'm not on your jury if you're guilty.


"Do you think we should reinstate summary execution for horse thievery?"

Grow up, horse theft is not rape.


"Society has chosen new rules for sexuality – that argument is over… it is time for some laws to catch up. "

They've never chosen new rules for rape.


"Is rape wrong? Of course."
"should we imprison people for 15 years? Of course not."

Sorry, the answer to both is, yes. 25-life.


Criminal
Nifong is a criminal and needs to face criminal charges over and above being disbarred. In addition I hope the families of the charged students go after him with civil suits and take every penny of his assetts from him.
The guy is a disgusting animal who should be put away. Exploiting his position to further his career with a total disregard for other peoples' lives.
And why do Blacks fall for the kind of trash so often? Voting for Nifong is voting for falure.
Apologizing doesn't even begin to cut it.

wo wo wo feelings....
1) “if you are guilty” that is exactly one of my points. Rape in the court room is usually exceedingly ambiguous. How can a third party accurately and reliable determine what happened between two parties, when everybody voluntarily participates in said act? Furthermore I cited a DOJ report that found DNA cleared 25% of men tested after a trial and conviction. If we cannot reliably determine if a rape occurred, is simply irresponsible to convict.

Or is the situation that you are omniscient and you can look into a ambiguous situation and determine truth, while police, prosecutors, and juries, have a miserable track record for getting things right under the current rules?

Or is your philosophy “usually men suffer as the result of these mistakes, so it is safe to convict”?

2) “Grow up, horse theft is not rape.” It seems the analogy was too subtle for you, so I will explain.

Horse thieves used to be subject to summary execution because it was very important to society that horses not be stolen. Horses had great value (most cowboys could not even afford own a horse). A common laborer could work their entire life and not be able to afford to buy a horse. If a man’s horse was stolen, his life was at risk because he would be stranded in the wiled, or unable to earn a living.

Now that horses are no longer a critical resource (they are not that important to society), the laws have changed. If you steal a horse, you are subject to the penalties of grand theft. The penalties are now months in jail, and not execution… the laws and penalties were adjusted to fit society’s view of horse thievery.

In general, because of our astounding levels of wealth and social welfare, property crimes do not put people’s lives at risk, so the penalties have become more lenient.

3) “They've never chosen new rules for rape.” Thank you for making my point again.

4) “Sorry, the answer to both is, yes. 25-life.” So I guess you do not care for the long history of legal precedence for laws keeping up with society, and punishment fitting the crime.

What other arbitrary and illogical positions do you take. Do you have any factual info to add to the debate, or do you stick with “feelings”.

An entirely corrupt system
J Michael, your comment about the tip of the iceberg is right on target and Dissenter57 brings up that there are no consequences for prosecutorial or judicial misconduct.

I've seen things ... the injustice, the lies, the conspiracies, even among the defense team - all stacked against the accused.




disbelief
The thing I find saddest about this entire affair, is how the so-called racial redeemer's, pot- banger's, G88, Black Panther's, MSM, and the NCNAACP, wished to crucify and have yet to apologise. The racial profiling they have laid upon America shows how far we have digressed from Dr. King's message of the 60's.
Why has it become popular to lay waste to any group of people in the 21st century? Especially by those who have been subjected to the ugly face of prejudice up close. When, can we as a country, finally put race, gender, and class aside. At my 54 years of age, I'm beginning to think I will never see the day.


pjal was correct
inkling_revival writes: Thursday, April, 19, 2007 10:16 AM
pjal was correct
Nobody is suggesting, or even implying, that false accusation is acceptable in any way.

What we're talking about is ordinary wisdom. If you hang with slimy people, bad things happen. Gripe all you want about common behavior by young people, gripe all you want about "jamming your morals down our throats," this is true whether you like it or not. No, hiring a stripper is not illegal; but if you hire strippers, there's a decent chance you're hiring someone with issues, and sometimes their issues are going to bite you. If you've got sense, you don't hire strippers, and you never have any problem.
______________________________________________

Thanks for seeing through the angry feeding frenzy haze and helping me to put just a little insight into the story. What I'm absolutely not is a liberal, or a bible thumper, a Jackson or Sharpton advocate and I'd seriously doubt if there's any of you on the TH Board who has a longer and deeper history for voting Republican, going all the way back to Dwight David Eisenhower.

Nor am I a goody two shoes either, I've got both eyes wide open, can't stand religious zealots and thought Carter, Clinton, Gore and Kerry were poor excuses, so there!!!

But what I am is a realist eho isn't afraid tro call it the way it really is, to go against the tide. And the reality is that these Duke kids, legal or not, started the ball rolling by engaging a couple of Black girls who, legal or not, were bottom feedings scum and the Duke kids are not entitled to get a pass when they get caught in the crossfire of their own making.

For those of you who, as parents, advocate what they did, that's what is wrong with our Country today, there's a woeful lacking in moral perspective and if that's the way you've raised your kids, then that explains a lot about our degrading social conventions.

FergusMacLennan,walt, planting ground.........
Like all of you feel, Nifong's got to pay but it goes deeper, it's the hypocrisy of Duke and everyone that joined in with them, the whole stinking lot but there's a seed underneath every tree and those responsible for putting themselves in the position that they did should pay the price. I was in a fraternity at Johns Hopkins, learned to play lacrosse, and ran with the big dogs, so it isn't that I'm some prissy liberal, it's more the case that you just haven't gone deep enough. Somehow, I've made it into my 70's without paying to watch a stripper or "buying" gratification. And I don't need to read the Bible to know why.

But you call me shallow????





Footing the bill
When the lawsuits are filed, as I'm sure they will be, not only Nifong will be sued. He doesn't have enough. They will also sue the governmental entities and I hope that raises the taxes. After all, this case was as much about the voters and taxpayers as anything else. Those who voted Nifong in on the back of his slimy maneuvering should pay the price.

pjal
"What we're talking about is ordinary wisdom. If you hang with slimy people, bad things happen. Gripe all you want about common behavior by young people, gripe all you want about "jamming your morals down our throats," this is true whether you like it or not. No, hiring a stripper is not illegal; but if you hire strippers, there's a decent chance you're hiring someone with issues, and sometimes their issues are going to bite you. If you've got sense, you don't hire strippers, and you never have any problem."

You claim it's not illegal to hire stippers, but if you do, then don't complain if you spend 30 years in jail for it.

"But what I am is a realist eho isn't afraid tro call it the way it really is, to go against the tide. And the reality is that these Duke kids, legal or not, started the ball rolling by engaging a couple of Black girls who, legal or not, were bottom feedings scum and the Duke kids are not entitled to get a pass when they get caught in the crossfire of their own making."

So, legal (which was) or not, hiring black girls (they requested white or hispanic, I guess they were prejudice) they are not entitled to be INNOCENT of charges by AG Cooper, because they hired black, bottom feeding scum (your words not mine) strippers, they should be put in jail for 30 years.

"What I'm absolutely not is a liberal, or a bible thumper, a Jackson or Sharpton advocate and I'd seriously doubt if there's any of you on the TH Board who has a longer and deeper history for voting Republican, going all the way back to Dwight David Eisenhower."

"Nor am I a goody two shoes either, I've got both eyes wide open, can't stand religious zealots and thought Carter, Clinton, Gore and Kerry were poor excuses, so there!!!"

Well then whose morality do you speak? According to pjal, those who view any pornography, drink spirits, blaspheme or break any laws according to pjal, deserves 30 years in prison!

You, sir or madame, are of the same ilk as too whom I refer in my post above yours. If as you say you are a realist, you would not wish prison on the innocent, instead ,sir or madame, you are what everyone sees: A RACISIST.

Johnnyp
"1) “if you are guilty” that is exactly one of my points."

No, you said you hoped I wasn't on your jury. Don't try to spin it into something it wasn't. The only reason you'd have to worry about ME being on your jury is if you were guilty.


"2) “Grow up, horse theft is not rape.” It seems the analogy was too subtle for you, so I will explain. "
Don't bother, you think you were too subtle, I think you were too stupid. Again, grow up.


"3) “They've never chosen new rules for rape.” Thank you for making my point again."

No, kid, that wasn't making your point. No, has always meant no and it doesn't matter how promiscuous anyone is, rape is still wrong. They don't "ask for it" because society has accepted consensual sex. It's not the same thing. If you think I made you point, you need a clue.


"4) “Sorry, the answer to both is, yes. 25-life.” So I guess you do not care for the long history of legal precedence for laws keeping up with society, and punishment fitting the crime."

You should stop guessing, you're not very good at it. 25-life *is* a punishment that "fits the crime" of rape.


Good article.

Now if something can be done about Johnny Sutton, the slimy, scum-sucking US attorney from San Antonio who sends an American law enforcement officer to prison every time a thieving illegal Mexican gets their lip cut.

jimbo
Like I told svpallava:

"No they were sent to prison for trying to cover up the shooting, had they filed the report on time and not tampered with the evidence at the scene, they would still have their jobs and freedom. While I love the Border Patrol a bad agent is a bad agent and deserves no special treatment."

Thanks Patriot
Thanks for closing the debate the way you did.

Let me summarize:

1) It seems you chose the option were you, or a court is omniscient and can reliably ferret out the truth in a rape case… regardless of the fact there is a long history to the contrary as I cited from a DOJ report.

One other way to look at this point is… picture yourself as one of the 25% of men who spent an average of 7 years in jail for a 15 rape conviction, even though your DNA did not match the evidence.

2) You are unable to formulate a response to the concept of laws and punishment evolving to suite the times, so you resort to calling me stupid. That is a crude debating technique when one is loosing the argument, and frequently used by liberals, and feminists… but usually feminists’ just scream.

By the way another example of evolving laws that might be more appropriate to the point at hand is… back when a woman’s virtue was the concern of society, a man could be jailed for publicly questioning a woman’s chastity. Those laws are gone now… ask yourself why.

3) Here you use two classic debating techniques… you try to demean me by calling me a “kid”, and then go on to change the point in contention. In this case you changed the topic to something that is highly likely to be true… that an actual rape victim did not ask to be raped (my favorite is “they did not deserve to be raped” – with the emphasis on the word “deserve”). I assume you know that was not in any of the points that I have made.

I have never questioned whether rape was wrong, however I do question rape being categorized only second to murder when it comes to penalties. I become concerned when chivalristic laws and prosecutors do not cautiously use the force of government.

When bad things happen to men, the usual reaction is “suck it up and be a man”. When something bad might have happened to a woman, the reaction is along the lines of “something must be done”, or “someone is going to pay”, or “how can we help you”.

4) Finally you restate your claim that the average penalty for rape should be increased from the current average of 15 years in prison to 25 years to life, with no supporting arguments or evidence.

We cannot have true equality until the legal system and society judges things without a chivalristic bias.

Patriot
I believe you're a voluntary victim of selective reasoning. Deputy Hernandez of Rocksprings, Texas (a place I know well and visit often) is an involuntary victim of selective reasoning.

My point was not to debate selective cases, but to point out political whores in our legal system. If you think Sutton isn't one, (just like Nifong), then your eyes and ears are full of moonbat guano.


Johnnyp
"Thanks for closing the debate the way you did."

If I supposedly "closed the debate" why did you keep typing? You're really not very good at this. :D


"1) It seems you chose the option were you, or a court is omniscient and can reliably ferret out the truth in a rape case… regardless of the fact there is a long history to the contrary as I cited from a DOJ report."

No, sometime false accusations happen, such as this Duke case. That some people are falsely accused is no reason to lower the penalties for rape.


"2) You are unable to formulate a response to the concept of laws and punishment evolving to suite the times, so you resort to calling me stupid."

You can claim your retarded comparison of horse theft to rape is too subtle but I cant tell you how stupid it is? What part of "grow up" is too complicated for you, kid?


"In this case you changed the topic to something that is highly likely to be true… that an actual rape victim did not ask to be raped (my favorite is “they did not deserve to be raped” – with the emphasis on the word “deserve”). I assume you know that was not in any of the points that I have made."

No, YOU suggest that because society accepts *consensual sex* that somehow rape penalties should be lightened. Same thing.



"4) Finally you restate your claim that the average penalty for rape should be increased from the current average of 15 years in prison to 25 years to life, with no supporting arguments or evidence."

I don't need "evidence" to have an opinion, longer sentences for crimes such as rape, isn't a hard sell for most people.

jimbo
"I believe you're a voluntary victim of selective reasoning. Deputy Hernandez of Rocksprings, Texas (a place I know well and visit often) is an involuntary victim of selective reasoning.

My point was not to debate selective cases, but to point out political whores in our legal system. If you think Sutton isn't one, (just like Nifong), then your eyes and ears are full of moonbat guano."

I believe you're a mental midget.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTQ4OWJjZTNmODMwNzhlMzA2MzZhYzJmYWM2NjBkYzI=


JohnnyP
YOU may wish the laws to "evolve".
YOU may think that a womans' honor is no longer of value.
YOU may think "sex is just recreation"
YOU may think that rape is a crime of sex and not violence.

YOU may also think the moon is made of green cheese and Elvis is alive and well as a medical attendent in Roswell.

By having these opinions, you might want to HOPE that if you ever ARE arrested for a sexually violent act the legal profession gets you before the relatives of the other party. Someone who may think 15 years is entirely too lenient.


lots of good company
Bad, but legal, behavior is punished by God, karma, peers, or parents... These punishments and retributions are primarily constrained by conscience and voluntary relationships.

Illegal behavior is punished by government. These punishments need to be constrained by documented rules, laws, and proceedures.

Were the Duke boys criminal? The answer is no.
Were the Duke boys scumbags? Looks like the answer is yes (I never did like strippers and I tend to leave a party if they arrive – I guess I am old school and think men should respect women, and women should respect their selves – sex is more than recreation).

Was Niethong criminal? Looks like the answer is yes because of his duty to exercise the power of office with restraint, diligence, and without biase. He did not follow the rules full disclosure to the defense, among other things I am sure.

Was the accuser criminal? Looks like the answer is yes because making false accusations of a crime is illegal. Now let’s see if she is prosecuted (let me be pleasantly surprised).

Was the Duke faculty criminal? Looks like the answer in no… but hopefully they will be civilly liable. Here is another group of scumbags.

Was Duke University criminal? Looks like the answer is no… but I hope for civil liability for this scumbag institution.

Who else can we kick in the teeth for this unsightly incident?

T
"Someone who may think 15 years is entirely too lenient."

Don't try to confuse him with fact nor reason, he wont have any of that. ;)



I believe you're a mental midget.
Ooooo. Good one. I'm impressed.

jimbo
"Ooooo. Good one. I'm impressed."

If that's all it takes to impress you, now we "know" instead of believe.

The fact is, Sutton prosecuted two bad agents who;
1) Illegally shot at an unarmed fleeing suspect, after striking him with the butt of his shotgun.

2) Covered it up by removing shell casings.

3) Filed a false report.

Had 2 and 3 not happened they might have gotten away with #1. Had they followed the law, themselves, they'd still have their jobs and freedom. What about the 14 other agent involved shootings (in the same area) with 9 deaths that never got prosecuted because the agents did what they were supposed to? Why is Sutton one of the "political whores" for going after 2 bad agents and not the other 14 good agents?

Good luck with your moonbats...

Oldschoolskills:
Oldschoolskills wrote: "'Nifong basically did well among both blacks and whites, demonstrating that Durham voters do not seem to be polarized along racial lines, at least on this issue,' Grose said."


I didn't write that Nifong won because he got the greatest percentage of black votes. I wrote that black indignation fueled Nifong's opportunism. He saw how most blacks reacted to the rape accusations, and he knew that enough liberals (regardless of skin color) would fall into their line of indignation that going after the lacrosse players was politically advantageous.


-- M. Cooper


A point for the Conservatives
The furor caused by the case used to be just. Silencing of victims still goes on today, but mostly in third world countries. America appears to have overstepped in it's empowerment of victims. Now that this case has proven it, and this Liberal will be much more skeptical. The prosecutor was dead wrong for putting those unfortunate rich white boys through that sort of legal heck. The effect not only delegitimizes future cases, it puts a bad mark on the original intent of the cause.

Zero tolerance
The power to prosecute is the power to destroy. When that awesome power is turned against the innocent for personal gain, the full weight of the law must come down. Really, really hard. Like a ton of bricks.

Nifong must rot in prison. There, he may reflect upon the fate he sought for others -- innocents who served no purpose to him but an election win and a lock on a state pension.

Zero tolerance is the only decent way to deal with the Nifongs of the world.


pjal was correct
Blackbeard says:
Well then whose morality do you speak? According to pjal, those who view any pornography, drink spirits, blaspheme or break any laws according to pjal, deserves 30 years in prison!

You, sir or madame, are of the same ilk as too whom I refer in my post above yours. If as you say you are a realist, you would not wish prison on the innocent, instead ,sir or madame, you are what everyone sees: A RACISIST.
-------------------------------------------------

In making his comments, Blackbeard spews venom with such regularity that he sounds like the classic liberal who twists, turns, mutilates and tramples facts to reach his own completely misguided conclusions.

As a first consideration, there was never any comment coming from me that suggested or inferred that the Duke University students should pay fines, spend time in jail or that they were guilty of criminal offense. Instead, my listing was specifically directed at putting Nifong on a garbage scow rowed by Jesse Jackson and let's include Al Sharpton while we're at it along with Don Imus, they deserve each other.

Here's exactly what I said, added only so you won't have to tediously scroll through the entire thread............

Nifong Alone?
It's real easy to join the crowd on this one, Nifong's a first class slimeball and should go out on the same garbage scow as Don Imus with Al Sharpton rowing.

But right behind him should be the President of Duke University and right behind them the students who hired these "ladies" in the first place.

Fraternities who persist in creating atmospheres like this on college campuses should be decertified by their Headquarters as an aftermath of this horror story but lets not forget how and why it got started, shall we?

______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------
I then quoted the entirety of inkling_revival's posting which, in your haste to sound off

pjal was correct
Blackbeard says:
Well then whose morality do you speak? According to pjal, those who view any pornography, drink spirits, blaspheme or break any laws according to pjal, deserves 30 years in prison!

You, sir or madame, are of the same ilk as too whom I refer in my post above yours. If as you say you are a realist, you would not wish prison on the innocent, instead ,sir or madame, you are what everyone sees: A RACISIST.
-------------------------------------------------

In making his comments, Blackbeard spews venom with such regularity that he sounds like the classic liberal who twists, turns, mutilates and tramples facts to reach his own completely misguided conclusions.

As a first consideration, there was never any comment coming from me that suggested or inferred that the Duke University students should pay fines, spend time in jail or that they were guilty of criminal offense. Instead, my listing was specifically directed at putting Nifong on a garbage scow rowed by Jesse Jackson and let's include Al Sharpton while we're at it along with Don Imus, they deserve each other.

Here's exactly what I said, added only so you won't have to tediously scroll through the entire thread............

Nifong Alone?
It's real easy to join the crowd on this one, Nifong's a first class slimeball and should go out on the same garbage scow as Don Imus with Al Sharpton rowing.

But right behind him should be the President of Duke University and right behind them the students who hired these "ladies" in the first place.

Fraternities who persist in creating atmospheres like this on college campuses should be decertified by their Headquarters as an aftermath of this horror story but lets not forget how and why it got started, shall we?

______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------
I then quoted the entirety of inkling_revival's posting which, in your haste to sound off with your inane sense of righteous indignation, you proceeded to attribute to me. That's the classic misguided liberal tactic of which I speak.

Then I mentioned attending Johns Hopkins and belonging to a fraternity, my age and era. But you're so caught up in pleasing yourself with the sound of your own voice that you still weren't capable of figuring out whether I was male or female. But that's understandable, you're just a 54 year old, a tad older than my son who, like him, is quite a few miles behind me and hasn't learned nearly as much as you think you know.

If you're going to strike out at people, Blackbeard, you owe it to everyone else, but especially yourself, to pay attention to what's actually said, deal with facts and not recreate them to suit your misguided nonsensical natterings.

And FYI, before using terms like Racist, at least learn how to spell it.

I won't hurl those lefty terms at you, but feel sorry for your woeful incapacities, hoping you might learn something in the next 20 years.

pjal
"he sounds like the classic liberal who twists, turns, mutilates and tramples facts to reach his own completely misguided conclusions."

Yet you claim "pjal was correct" which seems like twisting and turning to me too. Your "misguided conclusions" aren't exactly facts either.

pot/kettle/black

Nifong should be jailed,
the stripper should be jailed, the Duke University professors should be exposed for the hypocrites they are, Jesse and Al for the racist pigs they are, and the media for the pc nutjobs they have become.

CT
"Nifong should be jailed,
the stripper should be jailed, the Duke University professors should be exposed for the hypocrites they are, Jesse and Al for the racist pigs they are, and the media for the pc nutjobs they have become."

Well said...

Did anyone listen to the Duke players
news comments? How they were horrified at the reality that what happened to them occurs constantly across the country to people that do not have the means to defend themselves and are actually convicted of crimes that they did not commit. I am personally assisting in a very high profile case going on right now where the Broward County State Attorney's Office KNOWS that the person that they have charged with armed robbery did not do it, they are using the actual criminal as their star witness against the innocent defendant, and have fed the national media these lies thus ruining the jury pool, as the media already has him convicted, as does Bill O'Reilly etc...
It is so bad that were I even to mention his name I more than likely would be flooded with nasty comments regarding him.
My point being, the Duke atrocity is not that uncommon.

Goddie4LT
There is *no doubt* that people get wrongly accused and convicted but that doesn't mean everyone that claims to be innocent, actually is. The justice system isn't perfect but I can't think of a better one, anywhere else.

patriot on pjal was correct
Czre to elaborate on what was said that wasn't based on fact, or were you just exercising your fingers?

Wht exactly are the "misguided conclusions"?

pjal
"Wht exactly are the "misguided conclusions"?"

"pjal was correct" is a misguided assumption and conclusion, especially when used repeatedly.

Hope that helps...

JohnnyP, you are an idiot
JohnnyP, you are frighteningly ignorant about the nature of rape. Rape is not only a sexual crime, it is a VIOLENT crime. I cannot believe that in 2007, we have someone who can read and write who claims that rape is not a violent crime!

OMG, am still trying to process that.

Anyway, rapes are generally divided into two categories: anger rapes and power rapes. Both involve violence, though anger rapes involve more violence than power rapes. Frequently, a weapon is used by the rapist. This alone would qualify rape as a crime of violence, but violence is inherent in the act of forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse against her will.

Have you ever KNOWN a rape victim? Her life is changed forever. Her sexual relationship with her husband or boyfriend is damaged forever. She never completely recovers her sense of safety and security. Many times there are bad things that go along with the rape -- sexually transmitted diseases like Hep C, AIDS, venereal warts or herpes, for which there is no cure. There is the risk of pregnancy -- now she can gestate a rapist's baby for 9 months and give birth to it and give it away, or she can have an abortion. If she is opposed to abortion, this is a horrible dilemma for her; it is a horrible experience even for the woman who is pro-choice. She may have suffered PERMANENT vaginal or cervical or rectal damage, not to mention other injuries to different parts of her body that may be permanent. Rape victims have had a breast cut off, their faces slashed, or even arms and hands cut off. Have you read the NYT article from yesterday about the Columbia grad student who was raped by an intruder in her apt building, her eyelids slit (imagine not being able to blink), bound to a bed and the bed started on fire! Thankfully she was able to use the fire to break the bonds and the smoke summoned a handyman who helped her to the hospital.

Google Channon Christian and Christopher Newsome. Do it. Read the story.

I rarely call names, but you are a moron of the highest order. In fact, if abject stupidity were a crime, you'd get 25 to life.

By the way, there is an ancient Chinese proverb that goes like this: "The fool learns by experience." A word to the wise should be sufficient.

JohnnyP, you have never loved a woman
I'm quite certain of this, or you would not hold the views that you do. Actually, some of the things you say are the thoughts of a sociopath. If you do have a woman in your life, I hope her eyes are opened soon and she can get out and find real love.

Worst kind of offense
Philosophers throughout history have agreed that a false accusation against a man is worse than almost anything else you can do to him.

One of them, whose name I can't remember, said in a very eloquent manner that he who falsely accuses a man robs him of his good name. And unlike any material possesion, once your good name is gone it cannot be replaced.

I hope Nifong gets what he didn't give the Duke Lacrosse players; a speedy trial. And I hope his jury and judge are reminded of this philosopher's words when it is time to assess his crime and sentence him for it.

Goddie4LT
Read my 11:18 post.

This stuff happens all the time to folks not rich enough to afford top notch legal aid.

Yes, some women do lie about rape
Rape is such a serious crime that it is appalling that any woman would lie about it. While everyone here is focusing on the male victims, what about how these lies harm true rape victims? These lies result in true victims losing credibility, as if they needed more pain piled on top of their trauma.

This Duke thing is such a travesty and while I'm glad Nifong is in trouble and the boys have been declared innocent, I'm still disgusted that the lying stripper ho will just walk away free. In fact, she will probably make a lucrative career out of her tawdry lie. Too bad she can't face prosecution.

Best article I've seen on Duke case
This was a superb article: Focused, well-written, and it provides a new point of view (which I found convincing).

Thomas, why isn't all of your work at this level?

**********************

btw, the article was marred a little by the following sentence, which is incoherent:

"If he really thought they were guilty and expected to go to trial and convict them, then the rigged photo lineup he arranged could have been enough to get the case thrown out of court."

ItTakesAHeadToGetAhead
"the article was marred a little by the following sentence, which is incoherent:"

It makes sense to me. He questions nifong's sincerity in claiming that he really thought they were guilty by commenting on the rigged lineup, which was enough to get the case thrown out, on it's own.

What part of that didn't you get? ;)

PJAL is definitely Correct!!
Props to pjal!!

BTW, Black Beard.....there is absolutely nothing in pjal's postings that suggests he believes that anyone should get 30 years in prison for engaging in lawful activities!

PJAL's assertion is a question of PRUDENCE.

If I choose to wrestle with the pigs in the barnyard I risk getting mud on my face. Likewise, if I invite strange women to come to my home and take off their clothes for money there are a number of risks involved.

As this sad story indicates, these risks include being falsely accused of rape!

RC7
"PJAL is definitely Correct!!
Props to pjal!! "

Are you a moron too? How can he be correct when he cites Halbrook who says not al weapons would be allowed and then pjal claims all weapon would be allowed. You're not very good at this "correct thing" either. If you think the second amendment allows every kind of weapon, you're as big of an idiot as pjal.

ooops....
Wrong column...

What pjal is *wrong* about is his claim that the duke athletes share the blame. They are not responsible for being falsely accused, they are only responsible for hiring strippers.

Good Article, Excellent Post
Dr T is "spot on" as usual. However, M Cooper's post was compelling...Well done....

Thank you. Doctor.
Thank you doctor Sowell. After reading your wonderful article I cannot help but wonder how many innocent men of all races and socioeconomic status are in prison for rape. Because of a dishonest D.A. and a twisted woman out destroy an innocent man.
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