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Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Republican Candidates
by Thomas Sowell
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Can you remember seeing a Republican expressing outrage?

Democrats express outrage 24/7. Ted Kennedy alone has expressed more outrage than the entire Republican Party.

Democrats can lie their way around the world before Republicans can manage to mumble the truth.

The case for conservatism cannot be too hard to articulate. Talk radio is dominated by articulate conservative talk show hosts.

Even the liberal print media have some very articulate conservative columnists like Charles Krauthammer and others. There are also very articulate and conservative editorial pages at the Wall Street Journal and other newspapers, as well as similarly articulate conservative periodicals like City Journal, The Weekly Standard, and Commentary.

Only where it counts -- in Washington -- are conservatives tongue-tied. Why is one of those mysteries that may never be solved.

Even some Republican leaders recognize it. Former Republican whip Tom DeLay said as much during a recent interview on the Rush Limbaugh show.

After rattling off a list of achievements by the House of Representatives when it was under Republican control, DeLay was asked why nobody knows about those achievements. He admitted that Republicans did a poor job of getting their story out.

Something similar was implicit in remarks by former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, when he pointed out that there are Congressional districts where most people have conservative values but where they are represented in Congress by a liberal Democrat.

The Republicans' verbal ineptness would be just their problem, and the rest of us could let them stew in their own juices, except for one thing.

At a crucial time in the history of this country and of Western civilization, the Democrats are embracing foreign policies with a long track record of defeat, which can be punctuated by the ultimate defeat, terrorist nations and movements with nuclear weapons.

That is the background against which the many aspiring presidential candidates of both parties must be judged.

Among the Democrats, the various candidates all seem to be trying to outdo each other in advocating defeatist policies, as if we can unilaterally call off the war on terror by pulling out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, turning the country over to the terrorists as a base from which to destabilize the region and launch more attacks against the West -- including the United States.

That is why it is important, even for those of us who are not Republicans, that the Republicans come up with a candidate who not only has guts and brains but who also knows how to communicate.

Looking for an articulate Republican narrows the field considerably. The most articulate, though in different ways, are Rudolph Giuliani and Newt Gingrich.

Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is a well-spoken gentleman, and would probably make a good president, but the Republicans already have well-spoken gentlemen, many of whom have never expressed a moment of outrage in their whole careers.

There is no question that Newt Gingrich is politically savvy and, at the same time, is someone with a real grasp of the larger historic issues at home and abroad. He might well make the best president of all the candidates in either party.

But what kind of presidential candidate would he make? He is certainly very articulate, but in the low-key and sometimes ironic manner of a college professor, which he once was.

It is hard to recall Newt Gingrich expressing any outrage, even when he was falsely accused of abandoning and starving the poor by not appropriating enough money for programs to help them -- even after he had in fact increased the spending for such programs.

Rudolph Giuliani is a New York street kind of guy, who doesn't respond to lying attacks with professorial detachment, irony and understatement. He is a fighter.

Maybe a presidential ticket with Gingrich and Giuliani, or Giuliani and Gingrich, would be the Republicans' best hope -- and the country's. It would certainly be a big improvement over some of the candidates the Republicans have put out there in the past.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Stand for something
I got the democrats message. Hate Bush complain about everything but dont be stupid enough to stand for anything.
I'd rather we lost fighting the good fight than trying to move to the left. Stand on our principles. Speak loudly and carry a big stick!

Van
"This is why I am a former Republican."

"Democrats are the only reason to vote Republican. -- Thomas Sowell


Republicans
As a former Republican I can solve the mystery as to why Republicans seemingly exibit no outrage:

(It is human nature to be driven to speak about and defend those things in which one believes deeply in.)

Riddle solved!

This is why I am a former Republican.

Run to the Right of Hillary in 2008
One of the fascinating questions to be answered in the Republican primaries next year will be whether the Republicans will nominate a candidate that can run to the right of Hillary.

Although Rudy talks tough about terrorism, I would invite anyone to review his C-Pac speech and not be concerned about his faith that ultimately free markets and trade will shape the attitude of the Chinese towards us. He even implies that in the end terrorism will lose because those in Muslim societies want what we want for their children. This is indistinguishable from "Clintonism."

However, a civilization can just as easily crumble from within as it can from external threats. On the question of life, and the relationship of morals and law Rudy is perhaps more libertarian than Hillary. At best it is a toss up.

Is this the direction we want for the Republican party. It seems to me that the more the GOP comes to stand for nothing, the more likely it will have the same fate as the Whigs.

Talking tough and supporting the war in Iraq are not the basis for a broad based, principled, Republican resurgence.

If the GOP nominates Rudy, it will not only lose an election but any future as well.


tired
Tired of hearing "there is no conservative to be found" in the frontrunner.

With this kind of attitude, Reagan himself, would have been kicked out of the nominatin before he even got started. Even Fred Thompson is not as conservative as everybody likes to make him out to be. He is not even close to this "perfect conservative" that people are starving for.

You have to look to their records. McCain's record is not conservative, Guliani's record is conservative but very much not so on some points.

Romney on the other hand sliced government down in MA and balanced a 3 Billion dollar deficit, he vetoed any legislation that would expand abortion rights, fouught against gay marriage, trained and fough to empower state troopers to enforce immigration laws. Yes he has his issues of what he said in the past, but I look to what he did. I see him as extremly competent, very electable, and a strong, very strong fiscal conservative.

Thompson has also been given high marks by the conservate union and appears to be conservative on most issues. He is also articulate and a good commuicator, something we desperately need, as this article points out.

I see Romney and Thompsen as being great candidates that will wipe the floor with the others during debates and the democrats especially. I can just imagein it now, an actually articulate republican ticket, oh, how I have longed for that.

Romney's experience as an administrator, problem sovler, and change agent, does it for me though. I like both, but lean to Romney. Gingrich is great but American does not want him to be their president. We need something new and fresh to win in 08.


GregC
"I am just as patriotic as you, possibly more so
and love my country as much as you do, possibly more so"

Based on what? The way you bad mouth your country or the way you avoided the draft?


"Lets leave it at that and look forward to the next Sowell column"

I assume you have nothing more to add to your long and distinguished history of service to our great country then. Well on behalf of my family, knowing that so many are doing what you have, we'd like to thank you for your service. We hope your sacrifices haven't been in vain.


Patriot
I am just as patriotic as you, possibly more so
and love my country as much as you do, possibly more so

If anything, I am sharply critical of the Bush WH policies and gullible righties like yourself of believing most of what you hear

Maybe you are holding on to dreams of long ago

Lets leave it at that and look forward to the next Sowell column

GregC
"Fine, but you had no problem telling us about your Fathers service. And you have no problem asking me

Take your ' double standard' and have a cup of coffee"

All I said was he was in the Navy in WWII, I didn't list his rank or what ship he was on or what battles he saw.

I never told you any of his stories, it's no double standard.


"By the way, I said absolutely nothing about Ron Paul. You have your posts confused"

OK, so that just leaves bad mouthing your country and avoiding Nam via the draft lottery. Unless you have something else to add?

What a surprise, indeed...

Patriot
"None of your business. Many vets (especially disabled vets) don't care to talk about that kind of detail. My father rarely talked of WWII either, maybe it's privacy maybe it's humility but either way it's none of your business. You asked why I didn't volunteer. I answered your question, I did, join up."

Fine, but you had no problem telling us about your Fathers service. And you have no problem asking me

Take your ' double standard' and have a cup of coffee

By the way, I said absolutely nothing about Ron Paul. You have your posts confused

What a surprise

GregC
"Well, Captain Genius, what service did you do for your country and what was your rank ? Where you in a war ? which one ? Whats the story ? You expect people to be mind readers ?"

None of your business. Many vets (especially disabled vets) don't care to talk about that kind of detail. My father rarely talked of WWII either, maybe it's privacy maybe it's humility but either way it's none of your business. You asked why I didn't volunteer. I answered your question, I did, join up. That I refuse to give you exact personal details about my life means nothing. No, you can't have my credit card number either.

OK, so in addition to your bad mouthing your country and supporting Ron "cut and run" Paul, you also avoided service in Nam via the lottery, is that the full extent of your service, Greg? You didn't "volunteer for duty," as you asked me? Didn't sign up, *after* the war either? Thank God that there are so many ways to serve.

Patriot
"What's cryptic about me being a disabled vet?"

Well, Captain Genius, what service did you do for your country and what was your rank ? Where you in a war ? which one ? Whats the story ? You expect people to be mind readers ?

I missed being drafted for Viet Nam, I was # 223
in the first Lottery year

GregC
"you were up first, dude. Explain yourself. Thats problem A. what you post is cryptic. Try again"

What's cryptic about me being a disabled vet? You said, "Why don't you volunteer for duty ? Let me guess. You are a chickenhawk ?" I answered. You're dumber than a bag of hammers.

Again you avoid my question...
What about your service, kid, what have you done for your country other than bad mouth it?

Patriot
"service connected disabled vet, been there, done that"

you were up first, dude. Explain yourself. Thats problem A. what you post is cryptic. Try again

GregC
"I salute your father. I notice you are suddenly passive about your ' role"

He was always my hero. Suddenly passive? My "role?" You accused me of not joining up, I set you straight.

What I notice is that you avoided my question about your service.

Patriat

"I'm a service connected disabled vet, been there, done that. My family has a long tradition of military service, my father was in the Navy in WWII. You're not very good at that "guessing" thing, imagine that...

What about your service, kid, what have you done for your country other than bad mouth it?"

I salute your father. I notice you are suddenly passive about your ' role '

I pay attention, something you lack

GregC
"so you want America to be attacked. What a shocker."

No, you dolt, I'm just being realistic, a lot of people think we'll be hit again. You're an idiot.


"are there Islamofascists under your bed at night ?"
"Dream on, kling-on "

Again, grow up kid.


"When you see a Muslim walking down the street, does that vein in your forehead visibly throb ?"

No, I have Muslim friends, including Iraqis and Iranians.


"You are more likely to be struck by lightning than see another ' attack ' ."

I find that hard to believe, especially from the cut and run crowd.


"Why don't you volunteer for duty ? Let me guess. You are a chickenhawk ?"
I'm a service connected disabled vet, been there, done that. My family has a long tradition of military service, my father was in the Navy in WWII. You're not very good at that "guessing" thing, imagine that...

What about your service, kid, what have you done for your country other than bad mouth it?

Patriat
'When we're hit again, and we will be, eventually, more will stay awake. Don't worry, there will be plenty of those'

so you want America to be attacked. What a shocker.

are there Islamofascists under your bed at night ?

When you see a Muslim walking down the street, does that vein in your forehead visibly throb ?

You are more likely to be struck by lightning than see another ' attack ' . . Or volun.

Dream on, kling-on
Why don't you volunteer for duty ? Let me guess. You are a chickenhawk ?

GregC
"agreed, you don't see well

You are hypnotized by the War Junkies same 4 year old stale rhetoric speeches

Thank God , you are firmly in that strange/shrinking minority of ' true believers '"

I told you to grow up, kid. Selective quoting, acting (or not acting, being) ignorant and avoiding the points might help you sleep at night but facts are facts no matter how much you try to deny them. No wonder you support Ron "cut and run" Paul.

Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

The true believers woke up on 9/11 but some have been lulled back to sleep with a false sense of security or confused by retarded conspiracy theory. When we're hit again, and we will be, eventually, more will stay awake. Don't worry, there will be plenty of those with their tails between their legs to keep you company. :D

Patriat
"I don't see the cost of fighting the war on terror"

agreed, you don't see well

You are hypnotized by the War Junkies same 4 year old stale rhetoric speeches

Thank God , you are firmly in that strange/shrinking minority of ' true believers '



GregC
Saddam was a toothless enemy. He hated al qaeda and kept THEM out of Iraq, Captain Genius.

He, bin laden and most, if not all, of AQ are Sunnis and Zarqawi fled to Iraq before 2003 and, once again, for the short yellow bus crowd, Saddam supported terror. You seem to think that the war on terror only equals AQ, it's much bigger than just AQ. Iran may be next.


"after $2 trillion projected spending, all the unnecessary death and corruption, thats the best you can do ?"

I don't see the cost of fighting the war on terror as unnecessary, nor does your fantasy about whatever corruption you're babbling about matter. The fact is there were several reasons given for invading Iraq. World-wide intel may have been wrong on WMD, but we did find the mass graves that prove Saddam was a genocidal dictator, we have proof that he supported terror, he did violate the cease fire agreement and 17 UN resolutions and he was tried by his own people and executed for his crimes against humanity. I say it was the right thing to do.



"BOOGAH BOOGAH BOOGAH"

Grow up kid.


Patriat ( sorry)
"Saddam could have been a threat,"


Saddam was a toothless enemy. He hated al qaeda and kept THEM out of Iraq, Captain Genius.

after $2 trillion projected spending, all the unnecessary death and corruption, thats the best you can do ?

oh,ok

BOOGAH BOOGAH BOOGAH


GregC
"Haven't you learned anything in 4 years about
Iraq ?
Iraq was NOT a terrorist threat in 2002. The ' national security ' angle was completely cooked with phony evidence

I suppose you think Saddam was connected with the 9/11 attack ?"

That wasn't Ron, that was me, and your argument is nothing more than a canard.

According to world-wide intelligence (not just our own), Saddam could have been a threat, that we didn't wait for him to become one, doesn't matter. Saddam did support terror, that's a fact. Saddam did oppress his own people. Saddam DID violate the cease fire agreement and 17 UNSC resolutions. Saddam did avoid sanctions with the corrupt UN oil-for-food scandal.

Saddam doesn't have to be connected to 911, he is connected to terror and the war on terror isn't restricted solely to AlQueda nor Afghanistan for their protection of AQ. That's exactly why I can't vote for Ron "cut and run" Paul. Like you, he's completely ignorant about the war on terror and threat our enemy poses.




Conservo Ron
"We've been rewarded with a war in Iraq that drags on because of the failure to provide adequate resources at the beginning, and with exactly the sort of "nation-building" that Candidate Bush said he opposed."

No, that's not the kind of nation building that President Bush is against, that was a matter of national security and a part of the war on terror. That mental midgets can't see the different is no surprise to me. Exactly why I won't vote for democrats or Ron "cut and run" Paul."


Haven't you learned anything in 4 years about
Iraq ?
Iraq was NOT a terrorist threat in 2002. The ' national security ' angle was completely cooked with phony evidence

I suppose you think Saddam was connected with the 9/11 attack ?






Conservative Ron
"My frustration
Besides approving or exercising the veto against legislation the president is also charged with enforcement of the laws. There are already ample statutes regarding immigration. I continue to wait as I have been for six years for the president to aggressively enforce these statutes."

He also has the right to set policy and prioiritize the DOJ, he told everyone that he favors a comprehensive immigration solution, why would you expect policy to be different? He's raided more employers than other President's have, AFAIK. The fact is, Congress failed to give him tough bills, he signed the one that reached his desk.



GregC:
"We've been rewarded with a war in Iraq that drags on because of the failure to provide adequate resources at the beginning, and with exactly the sort of "nation-building" that Candidate Bush said he opposed."

No, that's not the kind of nation building that President Bush is against, that was a matter of national security and a part of the war on terror. That mental midgets can't see the different is no surprise to me. Exactly why I won't vote for democrats or Ron "cut and run" Paul.



Liberty:
"Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo
are the only real conservatives running."
Ron "cut and run" Paul is weak and YOU might call him a conservative, I call him a coward. He has zero chance, thank God. I'd never vote for him.


"Problem is... Guiliani is, pro-amnesty and anti-gun. He is NO conservative. He's almost as liberal as Hillary."

While he is pro-amnesty and anti-gun, he's nowhere near as liberal as hillary, such exaggerations don't help. The far right conservatives might not like Rudy, but he has the name and history to beat hillary. Most of the other candidates couldn't beat her. Even Rush says that hillary has an 80% chance of being President. I can't see many of the others being a challenge and we cant let her win. Rudy-Thompson, Rudy-Tancredo Rudy-Romney all have a chance. Thompson cant win, as President, because of his cancer. Ron "cut and run Paul, is an out of touch coward so he's out. Newt is too timid and has a past, not to mention his caving to the man-made global warming lemmings. Rudy might not be an ultra-conservative but we need to beat hillary not pander the the right wing of the base.

As far as I'm concerned, It's more important to beat democrats than to satisfy the fantasy of ultra-conservatives.



Loyal Democrat
"Republicans need a ..."

Yeah, democrats know what Republicans need, like a mouse knows what a lion needs.

Just because.
The Democrats will allow the left loons to sell out to the islamic terror, so who needs them other than the mad mullas of Iran.

on the other hand there are real Americans who
Town Hall will not name so "We the People", will have to "Take our Country Back".

http://blogs.iowapolitics.com/lincolnday/070414tancredo.mp3

Tom Tancredo's speech at a Republican Lincoln Day diner in Iowa where he recived a standing ovation.

It will never be reported here on Town Hall blog
except by we the people.

shubi
Problem is... Guiliani is, pro-amnesty and anti-gun. He is NO conservative. He's almost as liberal as Hillary.

Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo
are the only real conservatives running.

So, you can get behind real conservatives, or you can vote for who the MSM is pushing at you. It's your choice.

BTW, I realize a lot of you believe that Fred Thompson is conservative, but I think you're wrong. His memberships in the Council on Foreign Relations and the American Enterprise Institute are more than questionable.

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Guest_Column_89/Fred_Thompson_Neocon_Globalist_printer7654.shtml

Conservative Ron
We're on the same side here, but I do not think we want to suggest any type of additional Presidential Executive Order that will do nothing more than grab more power from the states. After all, think about what you are saying... you think Bush, who has done everything in his power to encourage illegal aliens to come into our country and give them amnesty, while at the same time, refusing to enforce our immigration laws, would honestly want to get help from the states? The STATES are the only ones doing ANYTHING about the illegal aliens. No, if Bush issued another of his famous Presidential decrees, you can bet it wouldn't be to tackle illegal immigration, it would solely be to steal more power from the states. Quite unconstitutional, actually. By the way, where in the Constitution does it give the President the right to issue Executive Orders? Creation of legislation belongs to Congress. The Executive branch is supposed to ENFORCE laws, not create them. We are allowing the President to get closer and closer to a monarch.

Guilliani-Tancredo
Newt can't get to the point if his life depended on it. His lack of passion in oratory dooms him. Besides, no one trusts him to keep his promises anymore.

Guilliani is tough and Tancredo is a real conservative. It provides us with an electable ticket.

Thompson is not tough enough to handle the Demwits and the Islamofascists. G-T might work.

Pathetic performance by Sowell
The topic of this column is easy enough to write about, but Sowell screwed it up.

Consider these lines from the beginning of the article (I'll flag them with [a], [b], [c])

[a] "Can you remember seeing a Republican expressing outrage?"

[b] "Democrats can lie their way around the world before Republicans can manage to mumble the truth.

[c] "The case for conservatism cannot be too hard to articulate."

Assuming that Sowell is a Republican and a conservative, [a][b][c] are weird statements.
(Sowell seems to have a "reputation" for expressing outrage; for being a timely non-mumbler; for being an articulate expositor of conservatism. In [a], [b], [c] he writes as if he has forgotten himself - or perhaps he doubts his own competence. What gives ???)

The content of the entire article could have been expressed in about a hundred words - which could have been composed by a high-school student.

Maybe Sowell was a sharp guy 20 - 30 years ago, but his current work is very uneven. Time to retire, Tom.

Conservos are easy - Bush II is Proof
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901770.html

I am enjoying you old dogs desperately cling to a
Giuliani/Newt Ticket. This will insure that you represent a small divisive minority.

You need to reconnect what conservative values
are all about. But first you have to get over being sucked into the hubris of power and corruption:

Fury on the Right
Bush's Base Betrayal
By Richard A. Viguerie
Sunday, May 21, 2006; Page B01


As a candidate in 2000, George W. Bush was a Rorschach test. Country Club Republicans saw him as another George H.W. Bush; some conservatives, thinking wishfully, saw him as another Ronald Reagan. He called himself a "compassionate conservative," which meant whatever one wanted it to mean. Experts from across the party's spectrum were flown to Austin to brief Bush and reported back: "He's one of us."

Republicans were desperate to retake the White House, conservatives were desperate to get the Clinton liberals out and there was no direct heir to Reagan running for president. So most conservatives supported Bush as the strongest candidate -- some enthusiastically and some, like me, reluctantly. After the disastrous presidency of his father, our support for the son was a triumph of hope over experience.


Once he took office, conservatives were willing to grant this Bush a honeymoon. We were happy when he proposed tax cuts (small, but tax cuts nonetheless) and when he pushed for a missile defense system. Then came the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and conservatives came to see support for the president as an act of patriotism.

Sixty-five months into Bush's presidency, conservatives feel betrayed. After the "Bridge to Nowhere" transportation bill, the Harriet Miers Supreme Court nomination and the Dubai Ports World deal, the immigration crisis was the tipping point for us. Indeed, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found last week that Republican disapproval of Bush's presidency had increased from 16 percent to 30 percent in one month. It is largely the defection of conservatives that is driving the president's poll numbers to new lows.

Emboldened and interconnected as never before by alternative media, such as talk radio and Internet blogs, many conservatives have concluded that the benefits of unwavering support for the GOP simply do not, and will not, outweigh the costs.

The main cause of conservatives' anger with Bush is this: He talked like a conservative to win our votes but never governed like a conservative.

For all of conservatives' patience, we've been rewarded with the botched Hurricane Katrina response, headed by an unqualified director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which proved that the government isn't ready for the next disaster. We've been rewarded with an amnesty plan for illegal immigrants. We've been rewarded with a war in Iraq that drags on because of the failure to provide adequate resources at the beginning, and with exactly the sort of "nation-building" that Candidate Bush said he opposed.

Start the Draft
or write a bunch of crap. Conservatives are the ultimate ex-marines.

Republican FAUX
There's no GENUINE conservative running for '08. These folks are REPUBLICrats. Liberals with a letter 'R's after their names. These people are oppotunists, and like the Liberal candidates, only power-hungry and egotists. America is bound to go break apart because NO bona fide conservative candidate can/will win in 2008!

The Truth About Newt...
If any of you are still reading these comments, it is time the truth about Newt Gingrich was widely disseminated.

He is NOT solidly in the conservative camp. And I am not referring to his moral mea culpa. I am speaking of his philosophy and worldview.

Until recently, I was in the Gingrich camp, willing to forgive his confessed marital transgressions, hoping he would ultimately enter the 2008 ring. Then came his supposed “debate” with Senator John Kerry on global warming, and before Kerry could get his usual condescending remarks in, Newt was AGREEING with him.

My initial reaction was shock. I felt as though I had received the Judas Kiss from a fellow compatriot who was in the vanguard of the movement. I said, Certainly Newt knows full well that global warming is not a scientific issue, but rather a political issue perpetrated by world socialists to attack capitalism and advance global redistribution. For Newt to use it for political ends is nothing short of traitorous to us who battle it on the front lines.

Thus, I did more research on Newt’s comments, hoping to find some caveat convincing me I had misunderstood his comments. I came across Amy Ridenour’s National Center Blog (http://www.nationalcenter.org/Z040607=newt-gingrich-on-environment.html) where on Friday (April 6, 2007) she had posted the article “Newt Gingrich on the Environment”. It convinced me that rather than political expediency, Newt was simply voicing what he has always believed. Consider the following:

During his tenure as House Speaker, Newt didn’t try to placate the liberals with “green legislation”, but rather was leading the charge to force environmental bills through the House. He established the “House Task Force on the Environment” (a rules committee with authority to screen all environmental bills) as an end-run around conservatives. He then appointed a liberal NY Dem to chair it, and stacked it with pro-green, liberal Republicans (a distinct minority at that time).

He sought to strengthen the Endangered Species Act which would have increased EPA authority over private land. Newt even successfully lobbied to kill legislation in the Senate that would have required the government to reimburse private landowners for a diminishing of property values due to EPA action. Even though it easily had the votes to pass, through Newt’s actions it was never brought to the floor for a vote.

In her article, Ridenour cited two more examples of direct actions by Gingrich:

“Gingrich co-sponsored H.R. 987, a bill that established additional Wilderness Areas in the Tongass National Forest, making sustainable forestry uneconomic in a high unemployment area.”

“Gingrich voted for the Montana Wilderness Act (H.R. 2473), setting aside 1.6 million acres in Montana for Wilderness Areas (the federal government already "owned" 27.6 percent of Montana).

This is no small chink in Newt’s conservative armor. On numerous occasions Newt has championed the importance of private property rights above almost all other rights as a basis of freedom and of free trade. Yet, he has supported and introduced legislation that has resulted in the government taking or de-valuing more private property than at any time in our history.

For more details on Newt’s green track record in the House, visit David A. Ridenour’s list of green, liberal actions by Newt at the following address: http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/nationalcenter?q=%22eye+on+newt%22&sa=Google+Search

It’s no wonder most of us missed all of this. Little of this came out in the media in the 90’s; they were too busy vilifying Newt for his House revolution and the “Contract with America”.

Newt has some excellent ideas, which should each be evaluated on their own merits. He would, if balanced by other influences, make a good advisor to the right conservative. But he is not qualified to lead the conservative movement, nor represent us to the world.

We need a fighter who will lead a charge into the enemy’s camp with a sword raised, not a hand extended.




Patriot - My frustration
Besides approving or exercising the veto against legislation the president is also charged with enforcement of the laws. There are already ample statutes regarding immigration. I continue to wait as I have been for six years for the president to aggressively enforce these statutes. I also await the president signing an Executive Order that would refuse federal funds to any state or local government that refuses to assist the federal government enforce immigration laws against both illegal aliens and employers of illegal aliens. These so called sanctuary cities are a disgrace and the president could put a stop to their offering safe haven by the stroke of a pen. The question: Will he do it?

No Repeat
Let's not have a repeat of the Reagan/Ford debacle of many years ago. The elitist RNC backed the recently physically dead Gerald Ford (he had been brain dead for years)over the conservative Republican's choice, Ronald Reagan. They withheld funds from Reagan and pumped money to Ford, the result: Jimmy Carter wins. 90% of the problems we now face can be laid at the feet of Jimmy Carter and tacitly the RNC. No doubt the elitist RNC will try to back Giuliani even though Fred Thompson will be (if he decides to run) the Conservatives number one choice. Better start calling the RNC today.

Winning Ticket: Giuliani/McCain
Here is a team which could win enough votes. Giuliani/McCain. Ginrich is not a real contender (the liberals drove him out of the Congress).

republican anger
If its anger we republicans want, I'm surprised that John McCain's name didnt come up. That gut can turn the air blue when he blows his top.

Thompson & Romney
A presidential ticket of Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney. The super conservative and the super organizer/businessman. And no Belt-way politicians.

ZTiger
" I'm still trying to figure how the Republican label has gotten attached to them?"

The Republican party is a "big tent" unlike your mind.

Ron "cut and run" Paul, has no chance, thank God. I was interested in Newt until he blamed humans for global warming with his arm around john kerry.

Giuliani is bad for the US.
Then again so was Bush. I'm still trying to figure how the Republican label has gotten attached to them? Like Bush, Giuliani would increase government spending. What happened to Republican's being the ones to bring down spending? Regan was the last president to do that. Both Rep, and Dems sense has increased it. Bush increasing it the most. Sure most of that is because of our war. Oh wait there really isn't a war as we have had no formal declaration of it.

And someone please tell me how Giuliani is a Republican and not some form of Hawkish Democrat? While your at it tell me how Bush is a Republican? You can pretty much write off 2008 as being the Lizard Queens rise to power. The only Republican candidate who would do something good for the country is Ron Paul and he won't get the Republican nomination. Newt might be good but frankly he has got a snow balls chance in hell to ever get the presidency.

Three branches of Government...
The legislative branch makes the laws from bills.

The executive branch approves or vetoes the laws.

The judicial branch is supposed to decide if the laws are constitutional.

While President Bush *wants* comprehensive immigration solutions he can only sign or veto whatever congress sends him. So far, he's signed everything put before him, except the stem cell bill he vetoed. Congress is who failed America, both the obstructionist liberals and the weak Republicans afraid to enact tough legislation for fear of being called anti-immigration. President Bush, however, has been true to his word, from the get go, so to speak.



Of course if you ask the retarded conspiracy theorists or "Hyde on That 70's Show," they'll tell you "The true three branches of government are military, corporate and Hollywood." ;)

If you're one of the tin-foil hat, conspiracy theorist, whack-job crowd, you can't blame the military branch for what the corporate branch does and the Hollywood branch has always had their heads up their rears. :D


Hope that helps...

Harmony
"For those who want our borders protected..."

A comprehensive solution would include protecting our borders, so you're using a false premise.


"which said, "I don't believe we ought to have amnesty...if they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too""

He claims that standing in line and paying fines makes it less than amnesty. We don't all agree. I think a guest worker program would be fine, if the only way to get a guest worker visa was to apply from their home states in Mexico. Regardless of our disagreement, he ran on comprehensive reform and that's what he's pushed for but he's never threated to veto an enforcement only bill so don't blame the President for a failure of congress.


"(Sorry for the run-on sentence!)"

It's just the internet, it doesn't have to be prefect. ;)

Patriot
"He ran on what he ran on."

Re: illegal aliens and amnesty, Bush spoke out of both sides of his mouth. For those who want our borders protected (and for good reasons), it's clear that the "side of his mouth" which said, "I don't believe we ought to have amnesty...if they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too" was not the truthful side.

(Sorry for the run-on sentence!)

lonestarblues
"Read your first link again. I don't see the connections you do."

The first link and second link are both the same AP story. There's a lot you don't see. ;)

"U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell would not say how many militiamen had gone to Iran but said that questioning of fighters captured as recently as this month confirmed many had been in Iranian training camps.

They do receive training on how to assemble and employ EFPs," Caldwell said, adding that fighters also were taught how to carry out attacks that use explosives followed by assaults with rocket-propelled grenades and small arms."

"It wasn't Iranians but, according to Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, Iraqis who used EFPs that killed US soldiers. Nor did he say the EFPs came from Iran, though other weapons may have. Nor does it say Iran itself trained the Iraqis but "surrogates" of Iran's intelligence.

EFP stands for explosively formed penetrator. The weapon causes great uneasiness among U.S. forces because it explodes with tremendous force and can penetrate heavily armored vehicles with a fist-size lump of molten copper. In January, U.S. officials said EFPs had killed at least 170 American soldiers in
Iraq.

"We know that they are being in fact manufactured and smuggled into this country, and we know that training does go on in Iran for people to learn how to assemble them and how to employ them. We know that training has gone on as recently as this past month from detainees' debriefs," Caldwell said at a weekly briefing."

You'd rather give Iran the benefit of doubt given their past support of terror and anti-Americanism? Sorry, we have plenty, imo.


"As for Israel I consider it more realistic to leave them to defend themselves, they're quite capable. If it were ever to happen and it escalated to other states, then find the forces and coalition to defend them."

I prefer to be a better ally then to hang our problems on them. Iran is enough of a threat that we should consider preemptive action with another coalition of the willing if the UNSC doesn't step up to the plate. There's still some time left, for other options, but we can't allow them to make a nuke, no matter if Israel would or not.


"It seems to me we're stretched pretty thin right now policing around the world. Just not sure we can enter another war."

If needed, we could move troops from around the world to anywhere but we wouldn't need to send in troops, the objective wouldn't be regime change (which would be nice), it's be taking out their defenses to allow a strike on their nuclear facilities. It'd be mostly air and naval, with special ops for, well, special ops. ;)


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16327575/

"Iran ordered to pay U.S. terror victims’ families
Nation must pay $254 million for 1996 attack in Saudi Arabia, judge rules"

What about Iran's support of Hamas and Hizbollah? How is arming, training, financing and otherwise supporting terror groups OK? They've been killing Americans for decades. I remember what happened in Tehran in 1979, don't you? I remember Beirut. Iran can't be trusted, they can't be allowed to build a nuclear weapon, they can't be allowed to defy resolution after resolution like Saddam did. Iran is NOT the good guy and America is not the one to be feared nor detested. It's not hard for me to pick a side.


(damn TH timeouts again...)


Patriot
Read your first link again. I don't see the connections you do.

It wasn't Iranians but, according to Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, Iraqis who used EFPs that killed US soldiers. Nor did he say the EFPs came from Iran, though other weapons may have. Nor does it say Iran itself trained the Iraqis but "surrogates" of Iran's intelligence.

The connections you make seem to depend on knowledge none of us have at the moment. I will agree with you though, it poses something of a threat to our forces there and should be dealt with--send in special ops as a warning not to interfere.

As for Israel I consider it more realistic to leave them to defend themselves, they're quite capable. If it were ever to happen and it escalated to other states, then find the forces and coalition to defend them.

It seems to me we're stretched pretty thin right now policing around the world. Just not sure we can enter another war.

Rudy and Newt
What a great idea. Rudy and Newt or Newt and Rudy. They would make a powerful and formidable team. Together, they have the street and political smarts, the awareness of the dangerous world we live in and, most importantly, the guts and fortitude to confront our enemies - a quality scarily lacking in any of their democratic counterparts.

lonstarblues
"I heard the rumor. Was it concluded they were for killing our troops?"

Iranians and yes, it's been concluded they were trained, in Iran, on how to assemble and deploy the EFPs. If you read the link I provided, you'd know there've been other Iranian weapons found in Iraq too.


"Wasn't that the 80s?"

80s, 90s, even recently. There are a number of Americans in Israel and elsewhere abroad.


"I think Israel already knows what's up. And, again, the questioned discussed was treats to the US."

Just because they know Iran is trying to build one, doesn't mean they'll have advanced warning of one being deployed. If you mean to leave Israel to handle Iran, that doesn't make you much of an ally nor realistic. See above, an attack on our allies is the same as an attack on us, if Iran were to nuke Israel or any of our allies it would affect the world economy. If UNSC pressure will work on Iran, so be it, but it didn't work with Saddam and I wouldn't be willing to wait 17 years for it either. They've proven themselves to be America's enemy, it's time we treated them as such.


"Or rush willy nilly into another mistake."
Another? Iraq wasn't a mistake, we just had some faulty intelligence.


"I'll readily admit I know little and, thereby, express inconclusive skepticism. How do you come by knowledge no one else has?"

I guess I read more than you do, it's not secret information.

Here's another link to the same story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070411/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq


Hope that helps...

GregC
GregC says "NoStarBlues, Conservo Ron...
What a shocker. You have selective reading skills
and lack critical thinking ability."

_Ad_homimem_ is a sign of a weak argument hardly worth responding to. Besides none of the rest of your post has anything to do with what I've argued.

Patriot and
Patriot says "They're [Iraqis] exporting weapons, training and terrorist s to Iraq to kill Americans and others."

I heard the rumor. Was it concluded they were for killing our troops?

Patriot says "You do know they've [Hezbollah and Hamas] killed US citizens, right? Are you so slow..."

Wasn't that the 80s? And _ad_hominem_ is an awful weak argumment.

Patriot says "That assumes Iran will warns Israel."

I think Israel already knows what's up. And, again, the questioned discussed was treats to the US.

Patriot says "Evidence enough, for me, based on their actions. I don't need to wait until it's too late, unlike some."

Or rush willy nilly into another mistake.

I'll readily admit I know little and, thereby, express inconclusive skepticism. How do you come by knowledge no one else has?

Shane7
"Not sure where you get off calling ME a "little boy", when you--obviously--have little or no knowledge of history and an incredibly infantile/blinded-by-bias world outlook."

I base it on your ignorant, exaggerated, juvenile, anti-American, deluded posts. Your own words give you away.


"I won't bother replying to your posts, anymore. Have a nice life!"

Good deal, Pinocchio, you weren't good at it anyway, loser.

Shane7
"As you can see, for you, or any other American to fear IRAN is ludicrous! Its your own GOVERNMENT that you SHOULD fear and detest."

Yeah, now we understand why stick up for Iran, you're a traitor. Another inbred, blame-America-first traitor.

Like I said, you exaggerate too much and it's easy to dismiss your delusions. Your own words give you away.

Shane7
"Patriot, you're a hopeless
Republican lackey--just the kind that the Elites LOVE! Gov't spending has SKYROCKETED under GWB and the formerly R Congress."

Sure spending has increased, did you think the war on terror would be free? It's still retarded to think that the democrats would have spent less, both hillary and obama promise to enslave us with a socialist national health care plan. I'd rather spend the money defending our interests than paying for your health care.


"...of this thing called the Patriot Act?"

I don't talk to terrorists, they wont be listening to my calls. If democrats had their way the second amendment would go away, again, the democrats are worse.


"how much sense does it make to send the Army thousands of miles away to fight make-believe 'terrorists', all the while doing NOTHING to stem the invasion of MILLIONS of illegals on the southern border?"

More exaggeration. Fighting the WOT, over there, keeps them busy, over there. As for securing the borders, he's signed the bill that was sent to him, providing for more BP/ICE agents and 700 miles of fence. He also talked some of the Governors into mobilizing the National Guard to assist the border patrol. There's been more raids of employers under Bush than Clinton too, if you think the democrats would do more to secure the borders, you're beyond delusional.


"You claim to be a disabled vet, from a long line of military types (guess you didn't learn from their mistake of signing up to serve the Imperial American Army), who doesn't want to "cut-and-run"."

Grow up kid.


"How about having the brains to "cut your losses"?"

Cutting and running will only hand the enemy a victory. Clearly, based on your exaggerations about the US Army, you know nothing about the military nor war.


"The only way to rectify the situation is to have a non-interventionist foreign policy. Just like the one Ron Paul advocates. Again, I invite you to explain what 'conservatism' means to you."

And you had the nerve to call *me* a
Republican lackey." Not everyone in the Republican party is a conservative but I could see how a Ron "cut and run" Paul "lackey" might think so.



"Iran doesn't/hasn't:"

Why do you want to wait until they do? What about what they HAVE done? You're on the wrong side and you question MY patriotism. Again, grow up, little boy.

More on the Iranian threat...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OEJA500&show_article=1

"BAGHDAD (AP) - Iranian intelligence operatives have been training Iraqi fighters inside Iran on how to use and assemble deadly roadside bombs known as EFPs, the U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday.

Commanders of a splinter group inside the Shiite Mahdi Army militia have told The Associated Press that there are as many as 4,000 members of their organization that were trained in Iran and that they have stockpiles of EFPs, a weapon that causes great uneasiness among U.S. forces here because they penetrate heavily armored vehicles.

U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell would not say how many militia fighters had been trained in Iran but said that questioning of fighters captured as recently as this month confirmed many had been in Iranian training camps.

"We know that they are being in fact manufactured and smuggled into this country, and we know that training does go on in Iran for people to learn how to assemble them and how to employ them. We know that training has gone on as recently as this past month from detainees debriefs," Caldwell said at a weekly briefing.

EFP stands for explosively formed penetrator, deadly roadside bombs that hurl a fist-size lump of molten copper capable of piercing armor.

In January, U.S. officials said at least 170 U.S. soldiers had been killed by EFPs.

Caldwell also said the U.S. military had evidence that Iranian intelligence agents were active in Iraq in funding, training and arming Shiite militia fighters.

"We also know that training still is being conducted in Iran for insurgent elements from Iraq. We know that as recent as last week from debriefing personnel," he said.

"The do receive training on how to assemble and employ EFPs," Caldwell said, adding that fighters also were trained in how to carry out complex attacks that used explosives followed by assaults with rocket- propelled grenades and small arms.

"There has been training on specialized weapons that are used here in Iraq. And then we do know they receive also training on general tactics in terms of how to take and employ and work what we call a more complex kind of attack where we see multiple types of engagements being used from an explosion to small arms fire to being done in multiple places," he said.

The general would not say specifically which arm of the Iranian government was doing the training but called the trainers "surrogates" of Iran's intelligence agency.

Caldwell opened the briefing by showing photographs of what he said were Iranian-made mortar rounds, RPG rounds and rockets that were found in Iraq."



That's more than enough proof of Iran's realistic capability and intentions for me. That's an act of war, imho. If Iran doesn't back down, soon, I hope they are taken out for our own security and that of our allies. Moral relativists might want to side with and make excuses for Iran, I do not.

GregC
Now I understand "DUhhhhh". I have seen an example of your information sources.

GregC
I'm sorry, I also meant to ask if "DUhhhhh" is a conclusion you draw on the basis of your critical thinking?

NoStarBlues, Conservo Ron
What a shocker. You have selective reading skills
and lack critical thinking ability. Anybody
who disagrees with your statements is a conspiracy
theorist.

Haven't you learned anything new in 6 years ?

Get better informed:

1. NY Times: Bush Warned bin Laden Would Hijack Planes
"The White House said tonight that President Bush had been warned by American intelligence agencies in early August that Osama bin Laden was seeking to hijack aircraft..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/16/politics/16INQU.html
2. CNN: Bush briefed on hijacking threat before 9-11
"President Bush's daily intelligence briefings in the weeks leading up to the September 11 terror attacks included a warning of the possibility that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network would attempt to hijack a U.S.-based airliner, senior administration officials said Wednesday."
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/05/15/bush.sept.11/index.html
3. UK Guardian: Bush knew terrorists would hijack planes
"George Bush received specific warnings in the weeks before 11 September that an attack inside the United States was being planned by Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, US government sources said yesterday?. The memo received by Bush on 6 August contained unconfirmed information passed on by British intelligence in 1998 revealing that al-Qaeda operatives had discussed hijacking a plane to negotiate the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the Muslim cleric imprisoned in America for his part in a plot to blow up the World Trade Centre in 1993."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,718312,00.html
4. Sunday Herald: Britain warned Bush to expect 9-11 al-Qaeda hijackings
"Britain gave President Bush a categorical warning to expect multiple airline hijackings by the al-Qaeda network a month before the September 11 attacks which killed nearly 3000 people and triggered the international war against terrorism."
http://www.sundayherald.com/24822
5. Village Voice: Officials Warned of Plans to Attack DC, NY with Planes
"The U.S. government had received repeated warnings of impending attacks?and attacks using planes directed at New York and Washington?for several years. The government never told us about what it knew was coming."
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0332/mondo4.php
6. AP: 9/11 report, Rice conflict; Bush got specific data on threats
"...the briefing given to the president a month before the suicide hijackings included recent intelligence that al-Qaida was planning to send operatives to the United States to carry out an attack using high explosives."
http://www.sunspot.net/business/nationworld/bal-te.rice29jul29,0,2620591.story?coll=bal-business-headlines
7. MSNBC: White House Briefed on Imminent bin Laden Attack
"One such CIA briefing, in July 2001, was particularly chilling and prophetic. It predicted that Osama bin Laden was about to launch a terrorist strike 'in the coming weeks,' the congressional investigators found. The intelligence briefing went on to say: 'The attack will be spectacular and designed to inflict mass casualties against U.S. facilities or interests. Attack preparations have been made. Attack will occur with little or no warning.'"
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3067907/
8. MSN: Condoleezza Rice's False Statement
A: "The overwhelming bulk of the evidence was that this was an attack that was likely to take place overseas."
- White House National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, in a May 16 news briefing.
B: "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S."
- Title of the CIA's Aug. 6 briefing memo to President Bush . . .
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2066154
9. Newsweek: Day before 9-11, Pentagon Generals Cancelled Flights
"On Sept. 10, NEWSWEEK has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns."
http://www.msnbc.com/news/629606.asp (link dead)
10. SF Gate: Mayor got 8-hour warning Before 9-11 Attacks ? September 12, 2001
For Mayor Willie Brown, the first signs that something was amiss came late Monday when he got a call from what he described as his airport security - - a full eight hours before yesterday's string of terrorist attacks -- advising him that Americans should be cautious about their air travel.
11. Florida State: Jeb Bush Declares Martial Law 9-7-01
"Based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port, the necessity to protect life and property from such acts of terrorism..."
http://www.state.fl.us/eog_new/eog/orders/2001/september/eo2001-261-09-07-01.html
12. CBS News: Ashcroft Avoided Commercial Travel Prior to 9-11
"In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/printable303601.shtml
13. UK Independent: Taliban Mole Warning Ignored
"Weeks before the terrorist attacks on 11 September, the United States and the United Nations ignored warnings from a secret Taliban emissary that Osama bin Laden was planning a huge attack on American soil."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=331115
14. NY Times: "President Mubarek Warned US of Al Qaeda Plot”
"Egyptian intelligence warned American officials about a week before Sept. 11 that Osama bin Laden's network was in the advance stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, President Hosni Mubarak said in an interview on Sunday."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30D16F73B5E0C778CDDAF0894DA404482
15. Village Voice: US Ignored France Warnings
"A key point in unraveling why the FBI failed to follow up leads on Al Qaeda terrorism now centers on the Bureau's contemptuously brushing aside warnings from French intelligence a few days before 9-11."
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0222/ridgeway2.php
16. Intl. Herald Tribune: White House Ignored Arab Warnings
"When the hubbub about what the White House did or didn't know before Sept. 11 dies down, Congressional or other investigators should consider the specific warnings that friendly Arab intelligence services sent to Washington in the summer of 2001."
http://www.iht.com/articles/58269.html
17. UK News-Telegraph: Israel issued urgent warning of large-scale terror attacks
Israeli intelligence officials say that they warned their counterparts in the United States last month that large-scale terrorist attacks on highly visible targets on the American mainland were imminent."
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$52PMOXQAADW5PQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2001/09/16/wcia16.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/09/16/ixhome
18. NY Post: FBI Warned D.C. It Was A Target
"A Minnesota FBI agent investigating Zacarias Moussaoui testified yesterday that he notified the Secret Service weeks before Sept. 11 that a terror team might hijack a plane and 'hit the nation's capital.'"
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/57848.htm
19. Yahoo News: FBI Warnings Ignored
"An FBI supervisor, sounding a prophetic pre-Sept. 11 alarm, warned FBI headquarters that student pilot Zacarias Moussaoui was so dangerous he might 'take control of a plane and fly it into the World Trade Center,' a congressional investigator said in a report Tuesday."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=512&ncid=716&e=4&u=/ap/20020924/ap_on_go_co/attacks_intelligence
20. Independent: America had 12 warnings of aircraft attack
"American intelligence received many more clues before the 11 September attacks than previously disclosed, that terrorists might hijack planes and turn them into weapons, a joint congressional committee was told yesterday."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=334633
21. Washington Post: 9/11 Probe Says Agencies Failed to Heed Attack Signs
"U.S. intelligence agencies received many more indications than previously disclosed that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network was planning imminent "spectacular" attacks in the summer of 2001 aimed at inflicting mass casualties."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36754-2002Sep18.html
22. Yahoo News: Spy Agencies Had Pre-9/11 Threats on U.S. Soil
"U.S. intelligence agencies picked up threats of attacks inside the United States and of using airplanes as weapons during the spring and summer before last year's Sept. 11 attacks, but were more focused on the possibility of an assault overseas, a congressional source said on Tuesday."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20020917/ts_nm/attack_congress_intelligence_dc
23. Vanity Fair: Bin Laden Relatives Secretly Evacuated From NY
"Patrick Tyler of the New York Times is reporting from Washington: 'In the first days after the attacks on Sept. 11, the Saudi Arabian ambasador to Washington, Prince Bandar ibn Sultan, supervised the urgent evacuation of 24 members of Osama bin Laden's extended family from the United States fearing they might be subjected to violence.'"
http://www.guerrillanews.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=gnn&Number=204363&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&part=all
24. Sydney Morning Herald: Administration Told US agents “Back off bin Ladens”
"US special agents were told to back off the bin Laden family and the Saudi royals soon after George Bush became president, although that has all changed since September 11, it was reported today."
http://www.old.smh.com.au/news/0111/07/world/world100.html
25. Ha'aretz Daily: CEO Says Workers Warned Hours Before World Trade Center Hit -- FBI Investigating
"Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744
26. NY Times: White House Approved Secret Evacuation of Bin Ladens After 9-11
"Richard Clarke, who ran White House crisis team after Sept 11 terror attacks, says top White House officials personally approved evacuation of dozens of influential Saudis, including relatives of Osama bin Laden, from United States in days after Sept 11, when most flights were grounded." http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/090503A.shtml
27. Tampa Tribune: Bodyguards tell of Secret Bin Laden Flight
"The hastily arranged flight out of Raytheon Airport Services, a private hangar on the outskirts of Tampa International Airport, was anything but ordinary. It lifted off the tarmac at a time when every private plane in the nation was grounded due to safety concerns after the Sept. 11 attacks. "
http://www.dirtybush.com/connectthesedots.html

28. UK Minister: "Bush had Foreknowledge of 9-11 attacks"
"...it is not surprising that some have seen the US failure to avert the 9/11 attacks as creating an invaluable pretext for attacking Afghanistan in a war that had clearly already been well planned in advance."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,1036588,00.html

GregC
Selective memory? I think not. No, I didn't measure the time. Was it five minutes? Was it seven minutes? I don't really know, but I know it wasn't 90 minutes. Do I recall small children in the background when he held the quick news conference at the school? No, I don't. If you are so certain it did, prove it. Point to a picture of the President at the news microphones with small children behind him, give a reference we can all find. Prove it.

This isn't a matter of convenience. It is a matter of responding to sheer stupidity. If you are going to pretend to debate facts related to 9/11, make certain they are facts. Support your case.

For the record, read the paragraph again. I did not assign blame. You assigned blame based upon what? A bunch of unproven accusations that don't survive the light of day.

Before you accuse someone of not demonstrating critical thinking look at your own. I would call it unparalleled in an inability to read and to comprehend and full of unsubstantiated accusations and assignments of blame. I have made no excuses and I have spun no stories. Do you want to know what spin is? Spin is a statement that blames President Bush for 9/11 because "was on Bush's watch that 9/11 took place. If you have a clue, you would observe the circumstances of how the 9/11 investigation took place with with the Bush WH." It was the fault of nineteen men and those who sent them, not Bush, not Clinton and not me. Own up to it.

Take your own argument to its logical extreme. If blame is to be associated with any administration, the terrorists went undiscovered in this country far longer than the eight months of the Bush administration.

If you really want to talk about the 9/11 investigation? Then don't fail to mention that Jamie Gorelick should have been testifying about that wall she constructed as a member of the Clinton administration that prevented the CIA from sharing information with the FBI to the fact that known terrorists (terrorists among the infamous 19) were in this country. Instead she sat on the 9/11 Commission. Ask why the commission failed to even look at the Able Danger investigation as well, but primarily ask about the tremendous conflict of interest by having Jamie Gorelick serve on the commission.

Shane7
"So, Patriot, it doesn't matter if
a given Republican candidate is EVERY bit the communist that the Democrat candidate is--as long as he/she is a "Republican"?"
Which imaginary Republican is a communist? The problem with your exaggerations is it makes it easy to dismiss your claims. However, to answer you hypothetical question, yes. I'd rather vote for your imaginary communist Republican than any democrat. I don't care how "good" the individual democrat is, I wouldn't want their party to have more power.

There are no Republicans "stomping our liberties" like the democrats. There are no Republicans "throw(ing) open the borders" as much as the democrats and the Republicans certainly don't "expand gov't power/spending even MORE than the Democrats." These are just your delusions. The Republican party isn't perfect but it's better than the democrat party. I'm sure President Bush would sign a border bill that was "enforcement only" but he's always ran on a comprehensive immigration solution so don't act surprised that he asks for one. He can't sign a bill that never reaches his desk.

BTW, I won't vote for Ron "cut and run" Paul, I'd vote for McCain (also not likely) first. As a disabled (US Army) vet and coming from a family with a long history of military service, I can't vote for narrow minded cowards who don't understand the war on terror.

Shane7
"Makes you wonder, doesn't it?"

No, it doesn't make me wonder at all. Yes, I *only* vote for Republicans because liberals are more interested in socialism than capitalism and I wont support an anti-American party like the democrats by voting for any of them.

I've quoted Dr. Sowell before but you must have missed it, "democrats are the only reason to vote Republican."

Lolo
"I don't think that makes him unelectable, especially since you got Edwards in it. "

Edwards doesn't have cancer, his wife does and people are questioning whether or not he'll be able to focus on America with a sick wife. I think he's doomed, politically.

IMHO, the only way he'd get elected, now, is if they came up with a "cure" before the primaries.

Patriot
Your other posts are very well said! Thanks!!!

Patriot
I don't think that makes him unelectable, especially since you got Edwards in it. However running mate is going to be crucial here. Gotta agree with Sowell. Reps in Washington need a to grow a backbone. Until they do they will not see a majority.

Thompson now unelectable...
Thompson doesn't have a chance now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070411/ap_on_go_co/thompson_cancer

"Fred Thompson says he has cancer

Fred Thompson, the potential presidential candidate better known as television's gruff "Law & Order" district attorney, said Wednesday he was diagnosed with lymphoma more than two years ago but the cancer shouldn't affect his life expectancy."


I don't think America will elect a Cancer patient, remission or not. Too much uncertainty.



GregC
Read GregC, read. I refused to blame Clinton for 9/11. I totally refuse to blame anyone but those 19 bastards and those who sent them. Did Bush know about Osama bin Laden? Yes, he was warned that he existed. He was not warned that on 9/11 nineteen men armed with boxcutters would commandeer four commercial airliners and attempt to use them as weapons to strike the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Figure it out.

lonstarblues
"The question is are they realistically capable to carry out such threats? "
They're exporting weapons, training and terrorist s to Iraq to kill Americans and others.


"How do Hezbollah and Hamas threaten the US?"

You do know they've killed US citizens, right? Are you so slow that you think that the only actionable threats are those that only happen within our borders?


"Israel will not sit helpless and allow it to happen. Israel has nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them in the region."

That assumes Iran will warns Israel. They may not have a warning. A second strike would not prevent the first strike, you can't wait that long.


"Evidence not of any real threat of active WMD programs, but a willingness to bluff and bluster their way to concessions, just like old Saddam."

Evidence enough, for me, based on their actions. I don't need to wait until it's too late, unlike some.




GregC:
"Facts say otherwise for 9/11 "
Oh God, another retarded liberal conspiracy theorist. Like I told you before. "You saying it doesn't make it so. The fact is you liberals and democrats want people to believe that President Bush is the enemy and the terrorists are misunderstood. No wonder the left is known for being weak on defense. You're on the wrong side."

You DO know that the Bush ordered 9/11 conspiracy crap has been debunked, right? No bombs, etc.

Don't bother answering, I'll not waste more of my time with a piece of crap, Bush hating, liberal conspiracy theorist.

Lonestarblues might be scared and weak but you're worthless.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

Conservo Ron
BTW, Bush received 56 specific warnings about Osama bin Laden and the planned attack in the US

Go ahead, blame Clinton. Thats a detail that works for you. The 56 details you can conveniently ignore just like President Bush ignored them

Conservo Ron
"The data regarding the Saudi's taking flying lessons around the country were individual elements of data among thousands of such bits of information. The problem was in the lower levels of the FBI where information was not adequately analyzed and passed forward as well as the wall that the prior administration created that prevented the CIA and the FBI from sharing information. The entire point was that the information was not available to the president in any cogent form.

There was nothing that Bush could have done to prevent 9/11. He had held the office for all of eight months and was still involved in getting his administration in place. If you want to blame a president for what happened in the lead-up to 9/11 then you must blame Clinton, not Bush because the majority of the tenure of these flying students were while he was president. I personally will not blame either man. It would not be reasonable and it certainly would not be fair.

With regard to where Bush was when the attacks occurred are you indicating that Bush had no business visiting a school or that he should have better planned his location in advance of an unknown crisis? Presposterous. Where are you today? What if catastrophe strikes your family while you are there? How will you justify such a location when your family needed you? The fact that you cannot anticipate a surprise attack apparently does not figure into your cognitive abilities.

I don't recall how long he remained with the class after being told we were under attack but we all know it was not 90 minutes. He didn't jump and run because he was with children he did not want to frighten. I also do not recall his press conference having tiny children in the background."

yes, you conveniently don't recall much

That is called ' selective memory'

Oh yes, ' blame Clinton '. Right. The outgoing Clinton Admin warned the Bush Admin about Osama and the threat of a coordinated attack. Fact: Bush did NOTHING, nada, NOTHING

It was on Bush's watch that 9/11 took place. If you have a clue, you would observe the circumstances of how the 9/11 investigation took place with with the Bush WH

Don't frighten the children ? Oh my, oh dear, what to do, what to do ? How about, " excuse me class, there is a phone call I need to take "

DUhhhhh

You must get dizzy from spinning stories and making excuses. Work on getting better informed
and show some critical thinking



GregC
The data regarding the Saudi's taking flying lessons around the country were individual elements of data among thousands of such bits of information. The problem was in the lower levels of the FBI where information was not adequately analyzed and passed forward as well as the wall that the prior administration created that prevented the CIA and the FBI from sharing information. The entire point was that the information was not available to the president in any cogent form.

There was nothing that Bush could have done to prevent 9/11. He had held the office for all of eight months and was still involved in getting his administration in place. If you want to blame a president for what happened in the lead-up to 9/11 then you must blame Clinton, not Bush because the majority of the tenure of these flying students were while he was president. I personally will not blame either man. It would not be reasonable and it certainly would not be fair.

With regard to where Bush was when the attacks occurred are you indicating that Bush had no business visiting a school or that he should have better planned his location in advance of an unknown crisis? Presposterous. Where are you today? What if catastrophe strikes your family while you are there? How will you justify such a location when your family needed you? The fact that you cannot anticipate a surprise attack apparently does not figure into your cognitive abilities.

I don't recall how long he remained with the class after being told we were under attack but we all know it was not 90 minutes. He didn't jump and run because he was with children he did not want to frighten. I also do not recall his press conference having tiny children in the background.

No, none of your references are examples of incompetence or anything else. If anyone is visiting Fantasyland today it is you with your ridiculous comments.

Democrats are soft on terror. This has been demonstrated multiple times. Clinton retreated in Somalia, the African embassy bombings went unpunished. Can you say Khobar Towers and the USS Cole? The only action Clinton ever took was to send a missile into an aspirin factory in the Sudan. He even did this at night with questions regarding his real motivations. If Clinton had information that this was truly a terrorist headquarters then why on earth would he strike it when only the janitor was on the floor?

Carter pursued predominantly diplomatic solutions. His single attempt at a rescue mission for the Iran hostages was ill-prepared and a real failure.

Reagan could have done more after the Beirut bombings but he at least learned. When USAF jets were challenged by Libyan jets over the Mediterranean he told the Air Force to shoot them down. They knocked the Libyan MIGs from the sky. He bombed Tripoli and virtually silenced Gaddafi at that moment. He put Pershing missiles in Europe to the chagrine of the candy-assed Europeans and as a result provided a challenge to the Soviets that they could not survive. He took on the Sandanistas and pushed Cuba out of Granada refusing them another anchor in the Caribbean.

Bush 41 pushed Iraq out of Kuwait in Desert Storm. In a matter of days he destroyed Saddam's Republican Guard that the American left worried were invincible. He took on Noriega, removed him from Panama and put him in a US federal prison.

Since McGovernites took control of the democrat party they have been a constant reminder pure weakness.

Karoden
"I cannot quote you the oath of office verbatim for the presidency of the United States but I do recall that on 2 seperate occassions George Bush placed his hand on the bible and took an oath of officeand promised with his hand on said bible to protect and defent the U.S. and to faithfully carry out the duties of that off. In most every one of my posts I preface my comments with " In my Opinion ", and with that in mind I would ask you if his refusal to enforce the Immigration Laws of this country constitutes a failure on his part to perform as he swore on the bible he would do ??? Enforce each and every law not those that only he approves of."

I agree with you. Bush also swore to uphold the Constitution and the laws of our country

Witness how he disrespects the Constitution:

George W. Bush issued 23 signing statements in 2001; 34 statements in 2002, raising 168 constitutional objections; 27 statements in 2003, raising 142 constitutional challenges, and 23 statements in 2004, raising 175 constitutional criticisms. In total, during his first term Bush raised a remarkable 505 constitutional challenges to various provisions of legislation that became law.

Patriot
"
You saying it doesn't make it so. The fact is you liberals and democrats want people to believe that President Bush is the enemy and the terrorists are misunderstood. No wonder the left is known for being weak on defense. You're on the wrong side."


yes, and George Bush and his WH knew about the terrorists from Saudi Arabia taking flying lessons in Florida. They had the Intel reports about an attack in August 2001

Your idol did NOTHING to prevent 9/11

Wait, Bush did conveniently attend a Florida grammar school on the morning of 9/11

After the 9/11 attack was whispered to him , he sat there for what, 90 minutes ?

Then he arranged a press conference at the school to announce ' WE have been attacked " with the terrified school children in the background

This is a stark example of Presidential incompetence and cynical exploitation

Go ahead, live in right wing fantasy land and clutch misguided notions that Dems are soft on terror.

Facts say otherwise for 9/11

Go ahead, live in right wing fantasy land if it makes you happy.


Iran's Threat to US
Patriot provides examples of Iran's threat to the US:

"How about 'death to America?'"

That's what I meant about the difference in threats earlier. Anyone can mouth imaginary threats. The question is are they realistically capable to carry out such threats?

"How about their support of Hezbollah and Hamas?"

Begs the question: How do Hezbollah and Hamas threaten the US?

"How about their refusal to comply with the atomic agency and 2 UNSC resolutions?"

Evidence not of any real threat of active WMD programs, but a willingness to bluff and bluster their way to concessions, just like old Saddam.

"You don't think if Iran "wiped Israel off the map" that would be a threat to us?"

No. Israel will not sit helpless and allow it to happen. Israel has nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them in the region.

"How much of a threat do you need to prevent a state sponsor of terror from getting nukes?"

I'm all for preventing any more nations obtaining such capabilities. The question we were discussing was do they now pose a realistic enough threat to invade or attack them? No such evidence exists. Use other means of prevention.

My argument remains, realistic like Ron Paul's, and now I believe Fred Thompson's, we should act with prudence and defend ourselves only against real threats.

Harmony
"I and many other citizens are bewildered by his refusal to close our borders. It absolutaely makes no sense to me.

Can you explain why he will not take a strong stand against illegals walking into our country?"

Don't act like he didn't run on comprehensive immigration reform, we all knew what he was about there. Furthermore the congress failed to send him anything but the bill he signed authorizing more border patrol and 700 miles of new fence. He did get some of the Governors to send the National Guard to the borders to assist.

I agree that amnesty is too much but he ran on what he ran on and he was re-elected with the same policy that he started with. Don't act surprised. If congress sent him an enforcement only bill, he'd sign it.

Patriot
Re: George Bush on national security, I and many other citizens are bewildered by his refusal to close our borders. It absolutaely makes no sense to me.

Can you explain why he will not take a strong stand against illegals walking into our country?

The cost of their medical and educational requirements, e.g., often fall on U.S. citizens. Many of us NEED to survive on our income, and that is NOT to be interpreted as indulging ourselves with fancy homes, cars, vacations, etc.

For those whose compassion and trust extends to supporting illegal aliens, their first obligation should be to willingly foot every bill they incur. But, no, they won't. They, including Bush and company, charge all of us, whether we agree or not.


Mati
Re: Change.

I equate lobbying with bribery...I believe a law should be enacted to end it.


Pappy Michael
"worse President since Bill Clinton...."
According to liberals but I think history will be kinder. I don't agree with his every policy but when it comes to national security, I'm behind him.

George Bush

worse President since Bill Clinton....

BrianR
"Rudy IS Hillary, except wothout the hair."

He's no Reagan but he's no hillary either.



karoden:
"I would ask you if his refusal to enforce the Immigration Laws of this country constitutes a failure on his part to perform as he swore on the bible he would do ??? Enforce each and every law not those that only he approves of."

No, it doesn't. He's not required to enforced every law on the books, he has a right to set policy for the justice department and now the DHS, which the borders fall under.

"I do not hate george Bush but I do feel he has failed his oath of office in many areas."

You don't know anything about it though, as your above question proves. You claim you don't hate him but you attacked his faith and you misrepresented what he ran on and now you claim he failed an oath you know nothing about but you sure seem fixated about that Bible.



BrianR:
Which of course, he hasn't violated. ;)

Karoden, allow me to assist
Here's the oath of office:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


GregC
I cannot quote you the oath of office verbatim for the presidency of the United States but I do recall that on 2 seperate occassions George Bush placed his hand on the bible and took an oath of officeand promised with his hand on said bible to protect and defent the U.S. and to faithfully carry out the duties of that off. In most every one of my posts I preface my comments with " In my Opinion ", and with that in mind I would ask you if his refusal to enforce the Immigration Laws of this country constitutes a failure on his part to perform as he swore on the bible he would do ??? Enforce each and every law not those that only he approves of.
Also in my opinion it seems somewhat hypocritical for george Bush to pray for the lives of our military men and women who are supposedly fighting a war to make our country safe, and the president looks the other way while Illegal Aliens which can well be potential terrorists stream across our borders.
I do not hate george Bush but I do feel he has failed his oath of office in many areas. Again an oath he took with his hand on the bible.
You and I can spout religion and our spirituality all day but then comes the time of night when you turn out the lights and review how you have lived your life and performed your duties for that day and the so called Buck stops there. You know as well as many others when you have not kept your oath of office.
I remember George W. Sr. stating " Read My Lips No New Taxes ", and I remember George W. on the campaign trail of 2004 asking " Who Do You Trust More To Protect You " and I took that to mean that he was serious about securing this country. In my opinion he has failed to keep his vow and he can attend all of the Public Prayer gatherings he wishes and attend church every sunday but he still placed his hand on the bible and swore to protect and defend this country againstb all enemies FOREIGN and/or DOMESTIC and he hasn't IN MY OPINION.

Patriot
You: "Unfortunately, many believe that Rudy has the best chance of beating hillary..."

Pffffttt!

Rudy IS Hillary, except wothout the hair.

GregC
"You know it and I know it."

You saying it doesn't make it so. The fact is you liberals and democrats want people to believe that President Bush is the enemy and the terrorists are misunderstood. No wonder the left is known for being weak on defense. You're on the wrong side.

terrorist fear card
its not ' nothing'

I disagree with you righties and repubs raising it like you own the card

This and 9/11 is used out of context to shut down discussion and is a cheap talking point to paralyze the gullible with the fear factor

You know it and I know it.

GregC
"...in order to raise the terrorist fear card"

Do you think there's nothing to fear from terrorists or their sponsors?

Boogah Boogah Boogah ROFLMAO
sure, magnet ficus, I think its infantile to scare amyone with ' islamists under my bed ' or ' mushroom cloud in your coffee' in order to raise the terrorist fear card

Sowell does it, thats why I trivialized it

Glad you enjoyed it

You would think, by 2007, most folks have flicked off the ' rove fear factor'


Fortunately, most Americans are no longer gullible

Pappy Michael
Unfortunately, many believe that Rudy has the best chance of beating hillary and Thompson still isn't in the race, is he? You have to admit Rudy has a better chance than McCain. :D

Rudy ?

Sorry Thomas, I have to disagree with you, Rudy is not a good choice for the Republican nomination.

He would be a good choice for the Democratic nomination.

Fred Thompson still is top of the list for me.

Conservative Ron
They wouldn't even have to get it to the USA, they could hit Europe, Israel or even Asia and do massive worldwide damage, therefore hurting us in the process. Hezbollah and Hamas would rather target Israel but Iran would be just as happy if it was the USA.

They would have preferred kidnapping Americans (again) but they were happy enough to take the Brits. I don't know about anyone else, but I remember what Iran did 1979. Like I said, plenty of threats.

Patriot
Let us not forget the threat that would be posed by this state sponsor of the terrorist organizations you cited to place those weapons in their hands or any other UBL type that would be willing to take a WMD to the community where lonestarblues lives and detonate a nuclear explosion with the promise of eternal life with 70 virgins.

lonestarblues
"If it's in our interests to stop Iran, then please cite their threats to us."

How about "death to America?" How about their support of Hezbollah and Hamas? How about their refusal to comply with the atomic agency and 2 UNSC resolutions? You don't think if Iran "wiped Israel off the map" that would be a threat to us? Never mind that Iran says Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth and that "God willing we shall soon experience a world without the United States..." How much of a threat do you need to prevent a state sponsor of terror from getting nukes?


Patriot
If it's in our interests to stop Iran, then please cite their threats to us.

Now, were some sort of evidence to be found oof active WMD programs, then, according to what I've heard, it will be at least 10 years before they have them on hand. --Now where have we heard this before? And were is the evidence Iraq had an active WMD program?

It's ironic, I know I read above how if we attack it will instill fear. If we attack it will be out of fear of the unknown. --Know your enemy was some good solid ancient advice.

Show some evidence Iran poses *us* a threat and I'll agree it's in our interests.

lonestarblues
"Policing the world is liberal policy."
Nonsense, it's not policing the world it's protecting our interests. They've made statements to the effect of (paraphrasing) if Iran nuked Israel it'd be worth Iran losing Tehran, in response, because nuking Israel would effectively wipe them out. They constantly chant "death to (insert current target of hate here)" The president has said that Israel should be "wiped off the map" They finance, train and provide material support of terror in other nations. That's enough threat for me.

Magnificus
Found this discussion: "World Leadership in The 21 Century" George Mitchell and Fred Thompson--to read in context: http://www.panettainstitute.org/lib/04/mitchell_thompson.htm.

Here's a citation: "The whole situation is a great challenge. You've got to make a decision between two very bad choices. It looks to me like if they take Fallujah, that it's going to play Al-Jazeera, you know, forever. And it's going to be rough and it might cause uprisings in other parts, and it might prove to be disastrous.

On the other hand, in my opinion, if they do not take Fallujah, that is guaranteed -- and bring in Saddam's old generals, that is guaranteed to prove disastrous.

...I believe that over a period of several years now, we have slowly but surely developed a reputation, not as a country that's looking for a fight or looking to unilaterally invade folks for the fun of it, but if we pull out when things get tough, as we did in Somalia, as we turned around in Haiti, the port there, as we did in Lebanon, a lot of people interpret our leaving when we did in Iraq in 1991 in retrospect, as weakness."

Seems to me he's saying something similar to Ron Paul.

As you would spin it, he's worring about what the world thinks.

As I would spin it he's being realistic.

Patriot
There's a world of difference between threats and being a threat. I don't think the country will fall for those old arguments. Policing the world is liberal policy.

LysanderSpooner
"My point was that conservatives shouldn't be blaming Democrats, as they almost always do, for the large spending and taxing increases in the 80's."

Well they sure did their share of spending since gaining control. They've forgotten their roots, to be sure but to quote Dr. Sowell, himself, "democrats are the only reason to vote Republican." :D


Liberty
"Wrong post, Patriot
Magnificus made that comment before the one on which you are remarking."

I stand corrected. However, if that was Mag, then you really do need to learn to quote. ;)

The facts remain the same...

Patriot
Patriot writes:

"My point was that the war on drugs began with democrats and was continued under democrat control. The left tries to deny this and try to put it all upon conservatives, which is wrong."

I agree. Fmr. Gov. Mario Cuomo (D-NY) was one of the biggest drug warriors as is Joseph Califano, fmr. Secretary of HEW. When Basketball Star Len Bias in some way due to drugs, Tip O'Neill of Mass. wanted some kind of law passed. The Democrats are definitely as responsible for the war on drugs as the Republicans.

My point was that conservatives shouldn't be blaming Democrats, as they almost always do, for the large spending and taxing increases in the 80's.





lonestarblues
"As of yet there's much talk and little proof of threat or wmd in Iran. "

The idea is to stop them BEFORE they get a nuke, not to wait until they make one. It's not rocket science. As for threat, they've made plenty of threats.



Magnificus
Read Ron Paul's book and then you maybe, you might just understand his foreign policy:

http://www.mises.org/store/Foreign-Policy-of-Freedom-A-P359C0.aspx?AFID=2

Magnficus and his lie
Yes, let's not forget that Magnificus supports Fred Thompson who belongs to the organization whose Presidents have said:

Richard Gardner, the President of the CFR in 1974, wrote, "The Hard Road to World Order".

“the 'house of world order' will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down ... an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault.”
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19740401faessay10106/richard-n-gardner/the-hard-road-to-world-order.html

How about the current President, Richard Haas?
"State sovereignty must be altered in globalized era". "In the age of globalization, states should give up some sovereignty to world bodies in order to protect their own interests"
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/02/21/20032

Wrong post, Patriot
Magnificus made that comment before the one on which you are remarking.

Magnificus
Response to your question "what Ron Pauls Foreign Policy would be if statements like the following are direct quotes from speeches given by him on the floor of the house?"

One, on Iran, Paul is taking a realistic stance exposing government propaganda its second time around, first Iraq, then Iran. As of yet there's much talk and little proof of threat or wmd in Iran. Take note too many unrealistically argue from ignorance there. Were there a serious threat to the US, rest assured Paul has long advocated a strong defense.

Two, his June 27, 2002 speech before the U.S. House of Representatives I had to go read to separate out your commentary from his words and to provide context, which I suggest others do. At the point where you quote a sentence or two, he is expressing what he sees as reasons AQ attacked us 9/11. It is, again, a realistic and accurate analysis of the reasons developed as far back as Qutb and the Egyptian Brotherhood. He is not, as you try to spin it, worried about what the world thinks--his is committed to a strong national defense--but concerned about losses of liberty at home as a consequence of our government's actions.

Three, indeed, he, like Washington advised, "advocate[s] a policy of Non-Intervention" and, again, of strong national defense. He, like you, and I, "believe we need a President more in touch with the REAL WORLD when it comes to Foreign Policy..."

You don't, do you, seek a neo-conish interventionist like Bush who would police the world? Is Thompson that? I guess, like the entitlement question, I'll have to do my homework on that question as well.


(I agree with Paul's policy in general, I disagree with the long-standing libertarian conservative position that we should leave Iraq any time soon. It is, now we're there, in our security and economic interests to do as much as we can to bring liberal democracy and free trade to the region.)

Magnificus: Really?
He used the "world opinion" criterion?

That alone automatically disqualifies anyone from public office in my opinion.

Anyone who will base their actions in public office on the opinion of anyone who is not an American citizen is beneath contempt.

I don't give a flying fig what the "rest of the world" thinks about this country. We already know that anyway, as they seem to be voting with their feet.



Liberty
"If you attack a country that has not attacked us, you scare a whole lot of other countries into believing that we will do the same to them."

Actually Iraq fired at US and allied planes patrolling the no-fly zones, constantly. That alone is a violation of the cease-fire agreement.

Secondly, Iraq, as a part of the war on terror, didn't need to attack us on 9/11 to be part of the global problem with terrorists and supporting nations. You don't deny that Saddam supported terror, do you? That *was* one of the reasons given for going to Iraq, if you're intellectually honest. This "they didn't attack us" crap is BS.


What about my post do you think to be an "opinion"?

See above...



"Bring it on."

Brought.

Magnificus
Furthermore, cite your reference and the quote for your claim that Ron Paul advocates, "Ceding our sovereignty to the whims of foreign governments because we want to be "liked"".

Magnificus
What about my post do you think to be an "opinion"? Bring it on.

Magnificus
As you and I have been through many, many times... If you attack a country that has not attacked us, you scare a whole lot of other countries into believing that we will do the same to them. It doesn't matter if they ever associated before, or even liked each other. Now, they have a common enemy... US. What we have done is created a whole lot of other people that have a desire to do us harm.

It's much like the age old story of the bully in the school. You remember that, don't you?

GregC
"I don't hate Bush. I wouldn't mind going on a bike ride with him and having a beer. He's probably a nice guy 1/1

But as a President ? Completely incompetent. Even
as Governor , he did a crummy job."

You attacked his faith. Try to claim it's not hate again. Even as Governor, he was re-elected with more votes than he got the first time he ran. Your sour grapes and hate shine through despite your denials.

Liberty
Learn how to differentiate between quotes...
and a totally different post that relays an opinion...
And stop wasting my time with your Ron Paul BS

Magnificus
Stop lying. Ron Paul has NEVER suggested "ceding our sovereignty" to ANYONE. Quite the opposite.

What's your agenda, magnificus. Debate his stances, fine. But don't lie.

Does this look like someone who wants to cede our sovereignty to another country:

A North American United Nations?
by Ron Paul
August 28, 2006

Globalists and one-world promoters never seem to tire of coming up with ways to undermine the sovereignty of the United States. The most recent attempt comes in the form of the misnamed "Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America (SPP)." In reality, this new "partnership" will likely make us far less secure and certainly less prosperous.

According to the US government website dedicated to the project, the SPP is neither a treaty nor a formal agreement. Rather, it is a "dialogue" launched by the heads of state of Canada, Mexico, and the United States at a summit in Waco, Texas in March, 2005.

What is a "dialogue"? We don't know. What we do know, however, is that Congressional oversight of what might be one of the most significant developments in recent history is non-existent. Congress has had no role at all in a "dialogue" that many see as a plan for a North American union.

According to the SPP website, this "dialogue" will create new supra-national organizations to "coordinate" border security, health policy, economic and trade policy, and energy policy between the governments of Mexico, Canada, and the United States. As such, it is but an extension of NAFTA- and CAFTA-like agreements that have far less to do with the free movement of goods and services than they do with government coordination and management of international trade.

Critics of NAFTA and CAFTA warned at the time that the agreements were actually a move toward more government control over international trade and an eventual merging of North America into a border-free area. Proponents of these agreements dismissed this as preposterous and conspiratorial. Now we see that the criticisms appear to be justified.

Let's examine just a couple of the many troubling statements on the SPP's US government website:

"We affirm our commitment to strengthen regulatory cooperation...and to have our central regulatory agencies complete a trilateral regulatory cooperation framework by 2007"

Though the US administration insists that the SPP does not undermine US sovereignty, how else can one take statements like this? How can establishing a "trilateral regulatory cooperation" not undermine our national sovereignty?

The website also states SPP's goal to "[i]mprove the health of our indigenous people through targeted bilateral and/or trilateral activities, including in health promotion, health education, disease prevention, and research." Who can read this and not see massive foreign aid transferred from the US taxpayer to foreign governments and well-connected private companies?

Also alarming are SPP pledges to "work towards the identification and adoption of best practices relating to the registration of medicinal products." That sounds like the much-criticized Codex Alimentarius, which seeks to radically limit Americans' health freedom.

Even more troubling are reports that under this new "partnership," a massive highway is being planned to stretch from Canada into Mexico, through the state of Texas. This is likely to cost the US taxpayer untold billions of dollars, will require eminent domain takings on an almost unimaginable scale, and will make the US more vulnerable to those who seek to enter our country to do us harm.

This all adds up to not only more and bigger government, but to the establishment of an unelected mega-government. As the SPP website itself admits, "The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America represents a broad and ambitious agenda." I hope my colleagues in Congress and American citizens will join me in opposing any "broad and ambitious" effort to undermine the security and sovereignty of the United States.

GregC
You have a nerve calling me a genius (even if you DID get it right) then writing

Boogah Boogah Boogah ROFLMAO

You sound like you're missing your Boy Scout Meeting or something...LOL

Now...be a good little Weebelo and give Mommy back the terminal.

lonestar

I was all set to give Paul a chance to sway me... but during his announcement (the C-Span event I sat through) I couldn't believe what I was hearing...so I looked deeper and found the other speeches.

I honestly don't think we can afford an administration at this time in human history that will 'worry' about what the world is thinking about us.
We already know they don't like us...haven't for years and years. Ceding our sovereignty to the whims of foreign governments because we want to be "liked" is dangerous for the Republic.


Magnificus
I thank you, sincerely, for the response. I think I read enough of his responses to say he sounds a fiscal, limited, Constitutional conservative, and to take an interest in finding out more, and will look into his stance on Entitlement Programs.

The summary second post I skipped.

And I'll try and give a response to your question on Paul's foreign policy question.

I'm not so much a Ron Paul advocate as an advocate for what he more than others stands for--so far, I'm open-minded enough I'll look more at Thompson.


Magnificus/Patriot
Wrong

I don't hate Bush. I wouldn't mind going on a bike ride with him and having a beer. He's probably a nice guy 1/1

But as a President ? Completely incompetent. Even
as Governor , he did a crummy job. It was plain as day during 1999 ( to me and several million) that he would take America backwards.

Would you hire a basketball player to fix your gushing toilet ? I think not.

I do hold folks like you 100 % accountable for choosing Bush. You are blind to lies and hypocrisy. Or maybe you cheerlead them, I can't say.

Fortunately you are in a minority. Like 25 %

Islamists a' coming ? They are already here, genius.

Try again. Terrorists , maybe ? Boogah Boogah Boogah

Didn't you hear the canceled the color coded Terror Alert ? The Sky wasn't falling.



Magnificus
GregC's hate spew said much more about him than it did President Bush's faith.

Their own words will always give them away. :(

GregC
When the Islamists come calling, don't bother going 'hat in hand' 'cause you won't be needing head covering when they're done with you.

I don't agree that being a 'good' Christian means I should do nothing when my life, or those of my children are in danger.

A wise man prays for peace but keeps his powder dry for the time when he'll need it and, violence seeks him out. This is that time.

Anyone who chooses to try to convince others it is wrong to act in self defense has at least a 50% percent chance of being on the 'other' side.

Your over the top statement
"Religious? What kind of a religious man orders "Shock and Awe" on a virtually unarmed nation? What kind of a religious man condones torture?"
Kind of tells ne you are a rabid Bush-hater. That is all.

But to insinuate we can "negotiate with enemies" especially THESE enemies tells me so much more.




GregC
"weeeeaallll, I'm gonna challenge ya there"

The war on terror, in no way, makes him less spiritual or less of a Christian. Remember, "Christians aren't perfect, only saved."

The only hate involved with President Bush is the socialist hate of the leftists.

KAroden- Bush ' Faith '
As for his "spirituality," he's never waivered on abortion, gay marriage nor stem cell research. ... but you can't attack his faith and be taken seriously.

weeeeaallll, I'm gonna challenge ya there:

April 08, 2007
Bush Prays for Peace at Easter Service

By BEN FELLER
Associated Press Writer
FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) -

President Bush prayed for peace Sunday at an Easter service during a visit to an Army post that has sent thousands of soldiers to war in Iraq.

"I had a chance to reflect on the great sacrifice that our military and their families are making," Bush said outside the chapel after the service. "I prayed for their safety and I prayed for their strength and comfort, and I prayed for peace."

He took no questions from reporters.

The menu for their Easter dinner at the ranch included fire-glazed ham, green chili cheese grits souffle, roasted orange molasses sweet potatoes, roasted asparagus, coconut cake and ice cream.


Fort Hood is the largest active-duty armored post in the military. It spans 340 square miles and is home to nearly 65,000 soldiers and family members.

The post has contributed thousands of soldiers to the war in Iraq. Its 4th Infantry Division headquarters unit soon will return to Iraq after little more than seven months at home.

In Iraq, a new day brought more violence.

A pickup truck packed with artillery shells was detonated Sunday near a hospital south of Baghdad, killing at least 15 people. Separately, the U.S. military on Sunday announced the deaths of four American soldiers, killed a day earlier in an explosion northeast of Baghdad.

At least 3,274 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war.
=============================================

another example of Bush looking outside himself for the solution to his many problems.

He STARTED the war. He can END the war.

Americans can stop dying with a phone call that he won't make.

Bush and his merry band of neocon war criminals gives the christian religion a bad name, they prosecute a war which completely violates the spirit and message of Jesus Christ.

George W Bush is a hateful and vindictive man, who uses his power to his own benefit, regardless of the consequences to his fellow human beings. He is profoundly dishonest in all his actions and words, selfish, self-serving, lazy and callous to the suffering of others.

If you doubt it, just look at his indifference and inaction during Katrina. He pretends sobriety and piety, but is in fact, the most profoundly corrupt man to sit in the White House in decades, perhaps ever.

Religious? What kind of a religious man orders "Shock and Awe" on a virtually unarmed nation? What kind of a religious man condones torture ?

If you define "religious" as someone who pretends piety and pontificates about good and evil, yet wages war for greed and power against defenseless people, you need to go to the "good book" and read. As a professed Christian, Bush should be endeavoring to promote understanding among nations, actively seeking peace, feeding the hungry and seeking reconciliation with our allies. Instead, he is threatening and murdering his fellow man and refusing to negotiate with enemies and alienating our allies.

All the while, this embarassment of a president pretends to worship the Prince of peace.

Loonstarblues
Can you tell me what Ron Pauls Foreign Policy would be if statements like the following are direct quotes from speeches given by him on the floor of the house?

Ron Paul before the U.S. House of Representatives, April 5, 2006

"Already the coordinating propaganda has galvanized the American people against "Iran for the supposed threat it poses to us with weapons of mass destruction" that are no more present than those Saddam Hussein was alleged to have had."
"Fear of imaginary nuclear weapons.... will rally the support needed for us to move on Muslim country #3"
"Yes, President Bush labeled Iran part of the axis of evil and unnecessarily provoked their anger at us."
( take note of words "supposed threat" & "wmd that are no more present..." & "imaginary nuclear weapons" & "unnecessarily provoked their anger at us.")

===============

Congressman Ron Paul before the U.S. House of Representatives June 27, 2002
ONLY Nine months after Sept 11 - and here we are blaming the Dems and pinhead professors for the conspiracy theories making the rounds these days!

"The several hundred al Qaeda members, we were told, hate us because:
We're rich, we're free, we enjoy materialism, and the purveyors of terror are jealous and envious, creating the hatred that drives their cause. They despise our Christian-Judaic values and this, is the sole reason why they are willing to die for their cause."
"For this to be believed, one must also be convinced that the perpetrators lied to the world about why they attacked us."
"What if the al Qaeda is telling the truth and we ignore it?"

================
OR THIS

While on C-Span announcing his run for the presidency he said;
"I advocated a policy of Non-Intervention".
"If we had just done what I said, THE WORLD WOULDN'T BE SO ANGRY AT US."

Then when taking calls said;
"The PROBLEM THAT WILL ENSUE over there, will be because we went. Not because we're leaving."

I believe we need a President more in touch with the REAL WORLD when it comes to Foreign Policy... can you change my opinion loonstar?



lonestarblues
But just in case you didn't understand it...

From SenateMatch (a LIBERAL website) -
Fred Thompsons voting breakdown;

Strongly Favors 2nd Amendment Rights
YES on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks:
YES on loosening license & background checks at gun shows:
NO on background checks at gun shows:

Favors Death Penalty
YES on limiting death penalty appeals

Favors Tax Relief
YES on Internet sales tax moratorium:
YES on requiring super-majority for raising taxes:
YES on eliminating the 'marriage penalty':
YES on prioritizing national debt reduction below tax cuts:
NO on reducing marriage penalty instead of cutting top tax rates:
NO on spending $448B of tax cut on education & debt reduction:

Favors Social Security Privatization
YES on deducting Social Security payments on income taxes:
YES on allowing Roth IRAs for retirees:
YES on allowing personal retirement accounts:

Strongly Opposes ABORTION
(0 points on Social scale)
YES on banning partial birth abortions:
YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions

Strongly Opposes GAY MARRIAGE
YES on prohibiting same-sex marriage:
NO on prohibiting job discrimination by sexual orientation:
NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation:
NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes:

Strongly Favors Education Reform
YES on school vouchers in DC:
YES on education savings accounts:
YES on allowing more flexibility in federal school rules:
YES on Educational Savings Accounts:
NO on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors:
NO on funding student testing instead of private tutors

No opinion on Legal Immigration / Migrant Workers (notice it says LEGAL)
YES on limit welfare for immigrants:
YES on visas for skilled workers: (notice it says SKILLED)
YES on allowing more foreign workers into the US for farm work:

Strongly Favors Defense Spending
YES on 1996 Defense Appropriations:
YES on considering deploying NMD, and amending ABM Treaty:
YES on favoring 36 vetoed military projects:
YES on allowing another round of military base closures
YES on military pay raise of 4.8%:
YES on deploying National Missile Defense ASAP:



lonestarblues
SORRY about the length of this people but I MUST answer the question as completely as possible for the RON Paul advocate...

Your question was;
"Would you say Thompson is/would be consistent in that regard with, say, items 2, 3, 6, 8, 10, 11?"

ITEM - 2) Is Pro-Life
WALLACE: Do you want to overturn Roe vs. Wade?
THOMPSON: I think Roe vs. Wade was bad law and bad medical science. And the way to address that is through good judges. I don't think the court ought to wake up one day and make new social policy for the country. It's contrary to what it's been the past 200 years.
We have a process in this country to do that. Judges shouldn't be doing that. That's what happened in that case. I think it was wrong.

ITEM - 3) Will Make Border Security a Priority & Is Against Amnesty For Illegals
WALLACE: You also favor comprehensive immigration reform. I want to...
THOMPSON: No, no, no, no.
WALLACE: Well, let me put up on the screen something that you said last year about illegals, and let's take a look at it. "You're going to have to, in some way, work out a deal where they can have some aspirations of citizenship but not make it so easy that it's unfair to the people waiting in line and abiding by the law."
Now, you said, "Look, it's just not realistic that we're going to round up 12 million people and ship them all out of the country."

THOMPSON: Well, that's true, as a general statement. We woke up one day after years of neglect and apparently discovered that we have somewhere between 12 million and 20 million illegal aliens in this country. So it became an impossible situation to deal with.
I mean, there's really no good solution. So what do you do? You have to start over. Well, I'm concerned about the next 12 million or 20 million. So that's why enforcement, and enforcement at the border, has to be primary.

I think most people feel disillusioned after 1986 when we had this deal offered to them before, and now we're insisting that, you know, we solve the security problem first, and then we'll talk about what to do with regard to other things - certainly no amnesty or nothing blanket like that.

But figure out some way to make some differentiation between the kind of people that we have here.
You know, if you have the right kind of policies, and you're not encouraging people to come here and encouraging them to stay once they're here, they'll go back, many of them, of their own volition, instead of having to, you know, load up moving vans and rounding people up. That's not going to happen.

ITEM - 6) Is Pro 2nd Amendment
WALLACE: Gun control.
THOMPSON: Well, I'm against gun control generally. You know, you check my record. You'll find I'm pretty consistent on that issue.
WALLACE: So this federal court - appeals court ruling this last week, I guess Friday, in the case of D.C. - you'd be perfectly happy to have people have handguns in their homes?
THOMPSON: Yes. Absolutely. The court basically said the Constitution means what it says, and I agree with that.

ITEM - 8) Will Restore Quality to Education
From SenateMatch (a LIBERAL website) -
Fred Thompson;
Strongly Favors Education Reform
YES on school vouchers in DC:
YES on education savings accounts:
YES on allowing more flexibility in federal school rules:
YES on Educational Savings Accounts:
NO on funding smaller classes instead of private tutors:
NO on funding student testing instead of private tutors



ITEM - 9) Is Against Gay Marriage

WALLACE: Gay rights.
THOMPSON: Gay rights? I think that we ought to be a tolerant nation. I think we ought to be tolerant people. But we shouldn't set up special categories for anybody.
And I'm for the rights of everybody, including gays, but not any special rights.

WALLACE: So, gay marriage? You're against.
THOMPSON: Yes. You know, marriage is between a man and a woman, and I don't believe judges ought to come along and change that.

WALLACE: What about civil unions?
THOMPSON: I think that that ought to be left up to the states. I personally do not think that that is a good idea, but I believe in many of these cases where there's real dispute in the country, these things are not going to be ever resolved.
People are going to have different ideas. That's why we have states. We ought to give great leeway to states and not have the federal government and not have the Supreme Court of the United States making social policy that's contrary to the traditions of this country and changing that overnight. And that's what's happened in a lot of these areas.

ITEM - 10) Will Address the Entitlement Program Problem
Senator Thompson said - "We've got an entitlement program that's bankrupting us."<