Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Tuesday, March 06, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Premature politics
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Some of us had just gotten used to the fact that it is now 2007, when all sorts of people started acting as if it is 2008.

Polls keep coming out showing who is the front-runner among the many Democratic and Republican candidates for their respective parties' presidential nomination. Why all this hype, this early, about front-runners? Has everyone forgotten the old saying, "In politics, overnight is a lifetime"?

Some of us are old enough to remember "front-runner Ed Muskie" and "front-runner Gary Hart," not to mention "President Dewey."

However inaccurate today's poll numbers may be as a guide to who is going to be nominated to run for president more than a year from now, the ugly sniping that has already started may be all too indicative of what to expect when the nomination races come down the home stretch and then the presidential campaigns get under way.

A new low has already been struck with an exploitation of the religious issue with claims that some of Governor Mitt Romney's Mormon ancestors had multiple wives.

Are Governor Romney's ancestors going to be on the ballot? The fields are so crowded that I hadn't noticed. The irony in all this, as someone has pointed out, is that Governor Romney seems to be one of the few politicians these days who has had only one wife.

The religious issue was supposed to have been put to rest back in 1960 when John F. Kennedy was elected as the first Catholic president. Actually, it wasn't that big an issue in 1960, and some cynics said that the only one talking about it was JFK himself.

It is painfully obvious that we have all we can do to get along among ourselves, without trying to deal with what people did in past generations. Whole nations have been torn apart over whose ancestors did what to whom and who was the rightful owner of what territory in times past.

The raising of the religious issue was not an aberration but one of the signs of an ugly retrogression in our times. During the confirmation hearings on the nomination of Judge Samuel Alito for the Supreme Court, Senator Dianne Feinstein asked him if being a Catholic would interfere with carrying out his duties as a justice.

Did she think that being Jewish interfered with carrying out her duties as a Senator? Had she forgotten that it was less than a century ago -- not long as history is measured -- when people objected to Louis Brandeis becoming a Supreme Court justice because he was Jewish?

Every nation has parts of its past that are best buried and never resurrected.

While a resurgence of religious bigotry does not seem likely, what has aptly been called "the politics of personal destruction" -- by one of its practitioners, Bill Clinton -- has become a growing cancer on the body politic.

The significance of character assassination goes beyond a cynical ploy by politicians. Such ploys are effective only because they appeal to many people who cannot conceive of anyone opposing their political agenda without those political opponents being stupid, evil or corrupt.

In other words, many no longer consider it necessary to meet arguments with counter-arguments, evidence with counter-evidence or logical analysis with logical analysis to the contrary.

Not even in our education system are logic and evidence the touchstones. Not since the days of the Hitler Youth have young people been subjected to more propaganda on more politically correct issues.

At one time, educators boasted that their role was not to teach students what to think but how to think. Today, their role is far too often to teach students what to think on everything from immigration to global warming to the new sacred trinity of "race, class and gender."

On even our most prestigious college campuses -- indeed, perhaps especially on such campuses -- speech codes stifle those students who disagree with the indoctrination, and outside speakers who are out of step with political correctness get shouted down.

We have all we can do to take care of the problems of our own generation without worrying about our ancestors or other people's ancestors.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Religion in Politics
As demonstrated by Senator Feinstein, the vast majority of Politicians are hypocrites, as well as being corrupt and only out to win re-election.

I would not vote for Mitt, not because of his religious or lack of religious affiliations, but because except in Massachusetts, he is not a conservative.

I'd vote for a Constitutionist, or a Conservative, but not for someone who displays such a level of compromise as to negate any "conservative" principles he claims to have.

Mike Adams for President !

Clinton Model
1. Decry the Politics of Personal Destruction even if the comment is about substantial matters.

2. Blame the person making the attack or comment.

3. Make appeal to American Values that may have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

4. State the question has been answered even when it hasn't

5. Declare it old news and blame talk radio and Fox news.


The same politians that swoon about how this could be the first women, black or hispanic President are silent about the possibility of an Italian-American or Mormon President.

Political atheism & consistency
I'm always impressed by the clarity of Dr. Sowell's writing. It would be great to hear his views on the CONSISTENCY of conservative economics, religion and politics.

This is an area in which we have few experts, and many amateurs (including myself). I have always been troubled by the lack of consistency between religious teachings and a capitalist model for economics.

Political atheism seems to be the only way to remain consistent.

The following are excerpts from a 4 part series called "Religion and Politics" at http://www.voice.com

I invite TH readers to express their views on this subject. If consistency of thought is important to an individual, how can they come up with a MORAL defense of capitalism - except to say that it works (better than the alternative), and so it must be good!

At the above link, you will also find an article titled: "It took a Civil War to end Slavery - will Civil Unions end the 'War' on Gay Marriage?" It will be obvious that my approach is different from many conservatives - but that comes from valuing consistency above all, including religious tradition. This stance doesn't win me too many friends among traditional conservatives .. so, it ain't for the faint of heart!

Due to my political atheism, I maintain that if a conservative (or libertarian) position can't be defended based on fundamental rights, the constitution or objective law, then it is lost anyway!

Note: that does not constitute an anti-Religious sentiment. What it does mean is that I accept the reality that issues cannot be decided in modern America on a religious basis alone.

Religion and Politics sure are touchy issues! And, we're told (as children) not to discuss politics & religion in polite conversation. But here goes, anyway ..

In my opinion, religion is a deeply personal matter. Also, it IS the source of many of our values and virtues. However, we also can be blinded by religion - if we accept EVERY value & virtue that is extolled by religion, into politics.

For example, all major religions extol the virtues of self-sacrifice. And that is the moral basis of socialism. Once we accept the maxim that 'self-sacrifice is a boundless virtue' into our DNA, the dice is loaded IN FAVOR OF socialism.

As a result, you find religious conservatives arguing against socialism ONLY on pragmatic grounds (e.g. it doesn't work, therfore it is evil). We no longer have a MORAL argument against socialism, and have to resort to contortions like 'compassionate conservative' against the charge that we are selfish, cold, unfeeling ...

Leftists have exploited this weakness. It is also the reason why good people begin their lives as leftists (it just SEEMS like the moral high ground), until their life experiences make the blinders come off. You've heard the saying "if you aren't a liberal at age 20, you have no heart; if you aren't a conservative at age 40, you have no brain!" - I'm paraphrasing a bit, but I'm sure you've heard this?

For this reason, I am atheistic in my political beliefs. In my personal life -- well, that's personal, and mama told me not to .. y'know!

Once the Gordian knot between Religion and Politics is untied, Conservatives can trump the puffery of 'holier than thou' liberals by consistently stressing:

* self interest over altruism
* freedom over enslavement
* fairness/justice over entitlement

sorry, that link was incorrect!

A Different Age
When Americans worried in 1960 that JFK's Catholic faith would determine public policy, they were reassured by his promise that it would not. 2000-Present has been a different story since GWB has consistently shown Americans that his faith DOES determine public policy. Let's not forget that the same Vatican that stayed out of JFK's White House made a statement in 2004 that any politician not opposing abortion should not be allowed to receive Communion. And Father Frank Pavone, the priest who stuck to Terri Schiavo's parents like glue in every photo op, was soon to become head of the first Catholic order of priests who do not marry or bury but who devote 100% of their time to political activism---like lobbying. Sowell can't reasonably support an administration that has a Faith-Based Department and prayer closets in the White House and at the same time take the position that "the religious issue has now been put to rest". It's not at rest as long as government is using federal dollars to support conversion to Jesus Christ, as it openly does in prisons and after-school programs. I do not see a Mormon as able to refrain from pushing his religious values onto the rest of us, something we've already had a bellyful of from Bush II.

Thought-less Decisions
Today, as in decades past, the greatest detriment to good people being elected is their past; or rather what the media makes of their past.

As Mr. Sowell wrote, we need to look at the present, not the past. And if we delve into the past, we should juxtapose those actions against the backdrop of that time, not the present.

Every politician must compromise from time to time. Another word using the same base is polite. Is it not being polite when you say, 'you're excused' instead of venting your spleen on whoever offended you? In the same sense, a politician cannot always move the mountain of public opinion according to his personal morals.

Pappy Michael states that Mitt is a conservative only in Massachusetts. That may be true but he is still a Republican. A governor can only enforce the law; he cannot refuse to do so. Nor can he enact or interpret laws. Mr. Romney, as governor, did the job he was elected to do. He was elected by a liberal majority.

Yes, he kept his hands (his personal preferences) off of state laws. Yes, he sidestepped issues that he could have stood against.

Yes, he used the office of governor to promote himself into national visibility. (I know of various politicians who used the office of Representative to promote themselves into the Senate, and Senators who are now running for the presidential nomination.) But did Romney needlessly step on others in doing so?

What Mitt Romney has done is choose the battles that he had a chance of winning. That is what politicians, presidents and generals do. That is what businesses do with all of the possible new products that they could manufacture.

But is that hypocritical behavior? Hypocrites are people who espouse one action for everyone else, and act in an opposite way. There are some leaders who are hypocrites. And there are many more that do not try to hold back an avalanche, but stand behind a tree as it passes.

Mitt Romney, and all other candidates for public office, should be voted for (or against) based on their use of legitimate power.

It is our duty, as citizens, to look beyond the media hype and the character assassination that is so prevalent in every election. This requires asking opinions from friends and also from political opposites.

Speak to me, friends, Romans, Countrymen!


To randomthoughts
Re "the same people who swoon at the thought of a first black or first woman president are silent on the subject of a first Mormon president": maybe that's because they've already had six years of the first Born Again Evangelistic Christian president and they don't want any more of the head of state forcing his religious values on the nation. If Barack Obama is elected, he will not try to influence people to become black. If Hillary Clinton is elected, she will not insist that men go around in drag and act like women. But if Mitt Romney is elected, he is as likely as George Bush to try and get everybody to accept Jesus since that is what Evangelists---and Mormons---do; their very religion calls on them to do this. Their evangelism does not take the form of encouraging personal conversion but seeks to influence matters of public policy so that it will reflect their religion. And most Americans do not want to return to unsterile back-alley abortions; most Americans want easily available contraception; most Americans do not want to criminalize their homosexual neighbors; most Americans do not want every nurse's aide, pharmacist, and ambulance driver deciding what work they will and will not do based on their religious beliefs. Most Americans do not want medical research constrained by religious zealots. Most Americans do not want the science education of their children to be determined by narrow religious perceptions not commensurate with science. Most Americans are tolerant: Evangelists are not.

ya know
the religious faith of office seekers is not supposed to matter: Religious tests for office holders are expressly prohibited by the Constitution...

Oh, wait, that's another of those outmoded elitist ideas that are no longer 'relevant' to th emodern world but that we don't need to go through the hassle of Amending out of the constitution. Silly me...

Voice of Reason:
It's all about free will. Capitalism is the economic model of freedom (as you well know).

I recognize that not everyone who would call him/herself a Christian recognizes the importance of free will on their immortal soul, but from my own understanding of scripture, it is paramount.

Look back to the Garden of Eden. Why was there a tree from which Adam and Eve could not eat? God could have easily prevented humankind from reaching the tree, had he chosen to. It is my contention that the option to do evil was required, if for no other reason than to provide an alternative to good.

Bring this notion to the present, and apply it to the modern socialist state. Helping the poor is no longer about doing good, it is simply an amoral state function. Furthermore, because humans are flawed, our solutions are imperfect: government assistance has unintended consequences (laziness), and massive fraud and waste abound. For the most part, nobody much cares. The purpose is gone, along with the moral drive that spawned it.

On a final note I would dispute that socialism is a Christian notion in the first place. The apostle Paul refuted such a notion with his famous words: "If a man will not work, neither should he eat". The commonly cited "socialism" of the early Christians in Jerusalem was largely a response to the religious persecution, and rapid growth they were experiencing. It was also not a government function, but was done by Christians for needy Christians.

it's not religion that matters
it's the party. Religion never matters so long as it is a demonRAT. Harry Reid's Mormonism doesn't matter, but Romney's does.

Religion is just a prop in politics. Some (like GW) wear it well and are believable- some others (Hillary) do NOT and look ridiculous trying.

Is it the people or is it the media?
I have often wondered how these issues become issues. Did people express concerns that Mitt was a Mormon causing the media to talk about it, or did the media bring it up, and thus causing people to talk about it. The media thrives off of controversy and will manufacture it if necessary. Controversy sells papers and airtime for adds. As we get closer to the election the media will gradually turn on their “controversy” machine towards the Republicans and turn on their “fawning” machine towards the Democrats.

Senator Dianne Feinstein’s Catholic concern wasn’t so much about religion as it was about abortion. The Democraps are so concerned that the abortion issue will be returned to the States as it should be, that they care nothing about anything else. It IS a single issue for them.

Robyn
Excellent point regarding Harry Reid. Cherry picking anyone?

Race, class, and gender
Sowell mentions this as a holy trinity, but the real trinity on our campuses is race, gender, and sexual orientation.

Dems these days are clueless about class, which is why so many of us who are in the bottom half economically now vote Republican. For example, it was only in the last year or so that Harvard figured out that it should do something so that poorer students can get in.

Opinionated Facts or Factual Opinions
Apparently I have been naive believing that everyone knew that the media determines what will be on the minds of the populace, and consequently discussing. It is more commonly considered "advertising," or even "brainwashing" to put it in a more sinister terminology. Either way, it depends upon the conceptual understanding of the person receiving the information whether or not they have been influenced in the first place.

It should be obvious to anyone reading this post by Dr. Sowell, and the ascending comments following, that people inherently believe what they have been told to a certain degree, and then they begin to mix it with what they want to believe, and end up with an opinion, which, we all know, is only important to the person offering it unless one has been sold on the theory that the opinion was true.

In the end, the media has accomplished its desires by moving the populace to take what they were told, and, consequently, create more content for them to foist upon the gullible recipients sufficient to move them even further into believing what was originally presented.

PREMATURE POLITICS
Thomas Sowell makes two elequent points that need to be shouted from the roof tops.

1. Children are not to be held guilty for the
sins of their ancestors.

2. The absence of logic, argument, counter
argument, evidence, counter evidence is almost
complete absent from political discussions
where ever they occur.

I see this second point almost every day in the political discussions in the break room at work. They've learned not to discuss things with me because I start asking for evidence for their allegations, and typically they don't have any.

We must ask ourselves, like the professor in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe",

"What do they teach in school these days?"

Mondamay
Good analysis. You’re perfectly right; however, it takes a considerable amount of rational thought to reach that conclusion, which many people are not capable of. Most people form their political views by interpolating to their vision of utopia. Religion in part determines the nature of utopia and the method of getting there. Very seldom does religion conjure a vision utopia that features capitalism, which is by nature selfish and greedy.

Only religious people who are capitalistic in nature will think of free will. For everybody else, their religion leads them to a socialist utopia. You can’t argue with that, even in religious terms, because that’s their faith.

If religion is removed from the argument, the question becomes, “What is the best alternative for humanity?” Then, on one hand, you have socialism, where the immense power of government breeds inefficiency, corruption and tyranny, and, on the other hand, you have capitalism, where people are free to act as they see fit and government acts as a referee to protect the rights of the people. That’s an argument that can you can win.

lilly
I seem to have missed the edict in which President Bush forced me to accept his religious beliefs. Can you provide a clear reference, please (without the ultra-left rhetoric)?


We are being played for fools, folks
Please go to this site and start reading documents:

http://www.americandeception.com/index.php?page=usercat&catid=10

The Queen of Personal Destruction

.....Kimbat ...you win that title hands down ...I have never read one of your posts where you were not attacking the personal/social life of conservatives or Republicans ...
....."Know thyself" .....COLOSSUS

Liberty
I've been to both public and private schooling, and I know enough about what happens there to know that propaganda in a class only goes as far as the political beliefs of that class's teacher. No supposed conspiracy will change that. Also, young people have been lied to throughout their lives. As a result, they’ve developed very sensitive BS detectors. As such, their political beliefs ultimately arise from logic and experience, not what someone tells them in school.

As defenders of liberty and capitalism, our job is to persuade people, not scare them with conspiracy theories.

lilly
Like RiverKing, I also missed the part where Pres. Bush has forced me to accept his religous beliefs. Please explain.

lilly
Heck, if you could even provide any examples where you could prove that Bush's religious beliefs have been the determining factor in a policy decision, I would be impressed.

NOTE: Asserting an instance of such does not count as proving the charge. I know you have had problems with this concept in the past, so I thought I would mention it, just as a precaution.

Surrender Thy Conscience!
The true danger facing America isn't religion, but the surrender of personal conscience. Leftists hate the notion that individuals have freedom of thought. This is the source of their aversion to religion: it is hard to convince others that you are a god when they worship another idol.

Speech codes and hate crimes laws represent the apogee of the new slavery, in which individuals are shamed or re-educated to believe in their complicity to suffering and evil, even when such evils are historical.


Mondamay & Darren,
I invite you to read "Religion & Politics, parts 1-4" at http://voice.townhall.com

Part 3 begins with:
----------excerpt begins----------
I'm not a Biblical scholar, but .. consider the following:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:17-26)

"Therefore, I urge you brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - his good, pleasing and perfect will."
(Romans 12:1-2)

"Then Jesus went to work on his disciples, “Don't run from suffering; embrace it. Follow me and I'll show you how. Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self. What kind of deal is it to get everything you want but lose yourself? What could you ever trade your soul for?” (Mathew 16:24-26)

There are numerous references in the Scriptures, as well as in sermons, that extol the virtues of self-sacrifice, renunciation and other 'virtues'.

In most denominations, the most stirring sermons occur when the pastor gives real-world examples of self-sacrifice.
----------excerpt ends----------

Quoting Darren: If religion is removed from the argument, the question becomes, “What is the best alternative for humanity?” Then, on one hand, you have socialism, where the immense power of government breeds inefficiency, corruption and tyranny, and, on the other hand, you have capitalism, where people are free to act as they see fit and government acts as a referee to protect the rights of the people. That’s an argument that can you can win.

VoR: exactly my point, since I am looking for a philosophical basis of support for Capitalism. And, religion-inspired-altruism undermines that basis.

Mondamay raises an important point about free will. But that almost seems like an inherent contradiction, with an added escape clause. Most religious teaching inspires one to pursue altruism, but with a free will.

In practice, this loads the dice (morally speaking) in favor of altruism - thereby infecting one's thinking with the germ of socialism.

My preference is to be politically atheistic, keeping my religious values private. This platform begets moral consistency - I can speak loudly from self-interest, and ignore any of the platitudes that are based on 'helping' the down-trodden.

The fact that the pursuit of self-interest actually HELPS the down-trodden (actually reducing their numbers significantly) bolsters the pragmatic AND moral case for such a stance.

Also, separating religion from politics forces us to make consistent policy decisions on social issues. At http://voice.townhall.com I present such an approach to the Gay Marriage issue.

I don't expect all conservatives to agree with my position(s) on social issues, but it is difficult to argue against consistency.

lilly vs. the evangelist
Ms. Lilly,

I am certain that you did not intend to amplify the inanity of your comments by using the word "evangelist" when you actually meant "evangelical."

Just trying to be a blessing. :-))

zzzzzzzzzzz

Darren
Education 2000, Outcome-based education, No Child Left Behind, etc. are not conspiracy theories. They are very real programs that have and are being implemented to intentionally indoctrinate and dumb down our children. Do you understand that these programs are based in the Humanist Manifesto?

You know, the very last thing my mother did before she died was to get Outcome-based Education thrown out of the state she lived in. She, and another elderly lady were able to do that. It is amazing what people can do if they get off of their backsides and take action.

Darren
I highly recommend you do some research before you state that I am speaking of a conspiracy theory. I am NOT. It is FACT. You can start if you choose by checking out the DOCUMENTS, here, and then doing further research to validate for yourself.

http://www.americandeception.com/index.php?page=usercat&catid=10


DiFi
"Did she think that being Jewish interfered with carrying out her duties as a Senator"?

She would be outraged by the very thought of such a thing!!!!!

Allow me to go Coulter for a moment-and a bit more direct!!!

Diane Feinstein sucks!!!!!

Kimberly, entertaining as always
Kimberly said:

"I like how Sowell attributes the "politics of personal destruction" to Bill Clinton - as if he were his own attack dog. Pardon me, but wasn't that phrase actually attributed to those who's mission it was to destroy Clinton?"

That's correct. As we all remember, it was invented by the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy." You know it was them. Why don't you just identify them by name?

I like this one almost as much:

"At this point in the game, Dem candidates are at least talking issues - including Bush's war."

Yeah... they do talk about "Bush's War" a lot don't they. I mean, it's not like DEMOCRATS voted in favor of it. All they talk about is their plan on what to do in Iraq and the reasons why their plan is better. For the moment I just can't seem to think of anything concrete that they've said about their plan... except something about Okinawa.

lilly
Jimmy Carter was only President for 4 years.

Of all the word that apply to Hillary, tolerant would not be one of them.

VoR
I couldn’t get http://voice.townhall.com to load, but I think I get the gist of it from your excerpts. Mondamay proved that religion-inspired altruism is consistent with capitalism, not socialism because capitalism best offers the opportunity for one to use one’s own hard-earned resources to the cause. One is forced to do so under socialism. My point is that not all religious people hold that belief, and because their belief is a result of faith, you can never persuade them otherwise.

So, in effect, I agree with you, that politics should be argued outside of religion, but I disagree with you in that that is the only consistent way of doing so.

Voice
Wants us to believe in Socialism as the creed of Christianity.

It all comes down to one concept. Christianity would have us sacrafice and work to help those who CANNOT help themselves. In no way does it suggest that we should help those who WILL NOT help themselves.

Christianity would support job training programs, but not free money for not working. It would support free education but if the child chooses not to learn, it would tell them to get out of school.

Personal choice is big in Christianity.

One other thing, there is something pernicious about government aid. When government comes in to offer aid, people say "Well, they have that" and stop helping in that area. Why should I volunteer to help children read? The government will do it. Why should a doctor donate his time to a free clinic when the government will provide health services?

Then the result is that the care and assistance is provided by someone who is just doing a job rather than someone who thinks helping others is their life's work. This results in all the bureaucratic failures and "zero tolerance" policies that we see.

Gary Hartpence
Although I am loathe to find Dr. Sowell in error in any way, Gary Hart(pence) was never a front runner against Fritz Mondale and was stuck at about 3 % in Democratic polls as late as the summer of 1983. By early 1984, stolid and dull John Glenn faded badly and Hart caught a wave. Hart came in a surprising second in the Iowa Caucuses, smashed Mondale in New Hampshire, and made it a race against Mondale. Hart went into the 1984 Democratic convention in San Francisco with momentum but the discipline of the Mondale folks (who had a small majority of delegates) kept that convention from becoming a runaway convention. Had the Democrats dropped Mondale, Hart surely would have given Ronald Reagan a better race than Mondale and may have limited Reagan's victory to single digits. In any case, Hart was the man to beat in 1988 until he dared the press to expose his hidden lifestyle.

Arguing outside of Religion
The problem with those who complain about Bush's religious views informing his policies is that they must. If you believe that global warming is a critical threat, you will act to prevent it. If you feel that marying your mother is wrong and evil, you will want to ensure it does not happen. Humans are incapable of making policy that does not reflect their own morality and they would be stupid to try.

Does anyone in the world think that the antismoking laws are being pushed by people who do not consider their own ideas of wrong and right? Do you consider that the welfare, civil rights, war positions, or minimum wage discussions do not engage the moral beliefs of the proponents? If you do, you are a fool.

Liberty
http://www.americandeception.com/index.php?action=downloadpdf&photo=/pdfimages/Brain_Washing-A_Synthesis_of_The_Russian_Text_Book_on_Psychopolitics-Charles Stickley-64pg-1959-GOV-EDU-POL.pdf&id=186&PHPSESSID=b8e505ab3a6d28a296a965594491c96f

Tell me that’s not a conspiracy theory.

I’m not saying that the programs you mention are all great programs. In fact, I hold the opinion that the federal government should not touch education in funding or regulation. It’s one thing to argue the merits and demerits of education programs and theories, but it’s an entirely different thing to tie those programs to some agreement with communist Russia or something.

My point still stands, that, in order to propagandize students, you’d have to propagandize all teachers, which is not going to happen. Someone very close to me was enrolled in a school of education, so I know the methods they use. Sure it’s liberally slanted, but I wouldn’t by any stretch of the imagination call it brainwashing. I think that real solutions need to be proposed, not scary conspiracy theories. For one, I think that schools of education need to be abolished, and that teachers should have a real major plus state certification to teach. Notice: Real problem --> Real solution --> Effective persuasion.

Link
Looks like you'll have to copy and paste the above link. It's too long to be recognized.

As a christian.
When I personally help someone in need two people are edified me and the receiver of my help. When I use the power of government to extract money from my neighbors and give it to anyone. Neither I nor my neighbor nor the recipient are edified. It may temporarily assuage my conscience if I am a scrooge in my heart. But it doesn't help me to become more Christ like.

lilly
Let's turn around lilly's "argument":

Most Americans do not want to continue have government support of the murder of the most innocent of our youth; most Americans want each of us to take responsibility for their own actions; most Americans do not want to criminalize their homosexual neighbors, but also don't want homosexual activity to be considered normal (defying the facts) and to have their children be taught this in secular humanist public schools against their wishes. Most Americans do not want medical research constrained by religious zealots. Most Americans do not want the science education of their children to be determined by the narrow religious perceptions of secular humanists which dominate our public schools, are not tolerant and not commensurate with science. Most Americans are tolerant; Secular Humanists (or whatever they want to call themselves today) are not.

Do you see how BOTH arguments, lilly's and this one above pose a strawman argument based in an abuse of classification? The punchline is also especially idiotic: "MOST Americans are tolerant, but [class] are not," meaning EVERYONE in [class] are not tolerant.

Also turn the tables on this one and have secular humanists (BTW the number one faith of the powers that be at all school levels) in mind as the subject of this statement: "Their evangelism does not take the form of encouraging personal conversion but seeks to influence matters of public policy so that it will reflect their religion."

Also is lilly claiming that she(*) herself is irreligious, i.e. doesn't base her life, at bottom, on kernels of faith? Then she would be in grievous error based on lie or delusion.

So lilly, really the matter boils down to which "religion" do you believe? And how about making an argument for that religion, instead of JUST claiming "the other guys are intolerent and I'm with 'most Americans'."

And lilly, you need to lose the fear of "the Evangelicals are out to get me!" Don't worry. Your secular humanist buddies have gotten the media, schools, courts, you name it, in a firm stranglehold, and stomping on the neck of the competition. You don't really have much to fear.

__________
(*) - Not privy to gender of lilly, please accept this pronoun nonetheless.

Abstract...on Thought-less Decisions
Abstract put it perfectly: "What Mitt Romney has done is choose the battles that he had a chance of winning. That is what politicians, presidents and generals do. That is what businesses do with all of the possible new products that they could manufacture."

Your entire post was right on. Excellent!

Thanks, Darren
I appreciate the kind words.

VoR:
One idea that I left out, but that you yourself have mentioned is the idea that the most people are helped by me exercising my free will. Given that more of the world has economic choice than in years past, I would make a case that it is divine providence that leads humanity to the freedom of Capitalism. Socialism is the seductive snake in the Garden.


As for your verses on the vice of being wealthy, I would like to mention that the poor in the time of Christ were far, far more poor than any we see in western society today. People in the US have amazing opportunities, and for far too many, being poor is a result of choice. If you read the parable of the talents, you can see that God takes a dim view of those for whom he has provided, but who have chosen not to give increase.

I suppose the only difficulty I have with Capitalism from a religious standpoint is the lure of materialism. It still takes considerable time and effort to become rich, and that time (in the religious view) is better spent on family and spiritual development. "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

Mondamay, Husker Jeff and others ..
Mondamay, your arguments are also from the PRAGMATIC school. To briefly state the pragmatic viewpoint: 'Capitalism uplifts the downtrodden, so it is good'! No disagreement there, I too think that capitalism works.

Question: Could you oppose welfare on the basis that it is morally wrong to enslave one group of people for the supposed benefit of others?

I realize that you could say pragmatically "I oppose it because it doesn't work". But if you ALSO oppose it on a moral basis, it is a much stronger argument.

Quoting Husker Jeff: Voice wants us to believe in Socialism as the creed of Christianity.

VoR: actually, no!

My point is that Christianity (and most other institutionalized religions) preach the virtues of self-sacrifice. Once ingrained with that concept, people are programmed to accept Socialism - the fact that a large %age of American Conservatives are Christian actually shows that many are able to separate Religious Self-sacrifice from their politics and embrace Capitalism instead.

However, it is an indisputable fact that we lose many good Christians to the Left, particularly younger Christians. If we stop to think WHY that happens, we will find that it is because of this dichotomy - good Christians truly want to help the needy; as a direct consequence, taxation for the benefit of others is acceptable to them. Due to this mindset, we get welfare programs, public education, universal health care and other Leftist entitlement programs.

It is very difficult for religious conservatives to argue that taxation for the purpose of entitlements is immoral. Pick any of the above programs and try to put forth a MORAL argument against it (other than the PRAGMATIC argument that it just will not work). My goal is to strengthen the moral argument for conservatives.

Just to show you that I do understand the PRAGMATIC argument: It takes some effort to realize that such taxation acctually hurts the economy, thus permitting less charity to the needy.

So, does anyone want to make a MORAL argument against welfare, public education or universal health care? Try it and you will find yourself 'dancing on the head of a pin' to avoid a religious contradiction. Or, try to justify the conservative stance on illegal immigration - besides the law-breaking, aren't 'they' just hardworking, good, unfortunate people who want jobs?

Quoting Husker Jeff: Christianity would support job training programs, but not free money for not working. It would support free education but if the child chooses not to learn, it would tell them to get out of school.

VoR: I'm sure that you would agree that 'free education' does not mean that there is no cost to education. Clearly teachers have to be paid, buildings cost money, ...

So, 'free' education requires taxation to support the costs of education. And that is unfair to those who don't have children. Why should the Smiths, a nice childless couple next door, pay taxes so that my son Johnny can go to school? Whether Johnny chooses to learn or not is not relevant to the question of why someone else should 'contribute' to my kids' education.

Hey Lili,
Simply preaching the Word to someone doesn't force them to accept it. Why do Libs equate simply hearing a religious message with being "forced" or having it shoved down your throat? It is people like you who are trying to force your way on our freedom of speech. Open up your mind, quit being so narrow-minded and try to start practicing the so-called tolerance I hear (but never see) liberals brag about.

silly_lilly
PLEASE TRY to stop being ridiculous!
If Barack Obama is elected, he CANNOT try to influence people to become black. Just a point of fact.
"The same people who swoon at the thought of a first black or first woman president are silent on the subject of a first Muslim sympathizing president".

In case you missed it...Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison, the first MUSLIM elected to Congress says he supports Illinois Senator Barack Obama for president.
This is the same MUSLIM Congressman Keith Ellison who REFUSED to take the oath of office on a bible, INSISTING INSTEAD the oath be administered on the QU'RAN.

So, using your ILL-logical thought process he is MORE LIKELY to try and get everybody to accept MOHAMMAD since that is what MUSLIMS DO!
Their form of encouraging personal conversion, often at the point of a dull carving knife or barrell of a gun, DOES seek to influence matters of public policy so that it will reflect their religion.
THEIR very religion calls on them to do this.

MOST Americans do not want other Americans to die just for mentioning the word abortion; ISLAMISTS DO

MOST Americans do not want other Americans to die just for wanting contraception to remain available; ISLAMISTS DO

MOST Americans do not want to KILL their homosexual neighbors; ISLAMISTS WILL

MOST Americans do not want every MUSLIM CAB DRIVERS in MINN deciding what work they will and will not do based on their religious beliefs.

(isn't it odd that Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison represents Minnesotta?)

MOST Americans do not want the education of their children (GIRLS INCLUDED) to be determined by narrow religious perceptions; ISLAMISTS DO

MOST Americans are tolerant: ISLAMISTS ARE NOT

The ISLAMIST ABSOLUTELY DOES want to force his religious values on THIS NATION.

Keep this in mind as you bash Christians, Mormons, Druids or whatever religions are on your hit list. Because YOU, religious or not, are on the ISLAMISTS hit list you can be sure.(So if you have an I-Pod OR a job I would suggest you get rid of them both, fast.)

BTW
How can you be so sure that "If Hillary Clinton is elected, she will not insist that men go around in drag and act like women."


Darren
Someone very close to me was enrolled in a school of education...Sure it’s liberally slanted, but I wouldn’t by any stretch of the imagination call it brainwashing.

Is that satire? I mean, liberally slanted...LOL

VoR: Moral Argument
My attempt would be simply to say that dumping the education of your children into the secular-progressive public school system, foisting off your charitable responsibilities on an uncaring, and ineffectual system, and surrendurring your personal property to people and organizations with immoral or amoral aims is a very hard position to defend from a biblical perspective.

I think you make a mistake in believing that caring or faith has anything to do with socialism. I think it's ignorance and sloth.

Mondamay,
You may be referring to those who are recipient's of welfare - some (but not all) of them ARE slothful & ignorant.

But I'm referring to those who are not recipients of welfare, but those hardworking, reasonably smart Americans who support welfare programs politically by voting for Democrat-inspired programs.

Most people are not slothful - I'm referring to a majority of Americans who work hard and do not expect any handouts from the Govt.

Most people are not ignorant either - they are bright enough to get an education that affords them decent opportunities in a prosperous country like ours.

So, why do so many fall for the Leftist agenda? Because it sounds charitable and selfless.

Why are those qualities (charity & selflessness) usually associated with virtue? Because of our religious leanings.

Kimberly...
Your vitriolic Bush bashing is, as always, such a slice of sunshine !

Voic of reason
Jesus taught capitalism. Remember the parable of the ten talents? He rewarded the two servants who invested their talents and cursed the servant who buried his talent. Remember Paul's writing "If a man doesn't work, neither let him eat"? Sounds like "workfare" to me. The OT says we are to lay up an inheritance for our GRANDCHILDREN. Ever hear of a poor person being able to do that? Ever get a job from a poor person? We were created to achieve and be rewarded for it, but the catch is we are responsible for the stewardship of all our increase and Jesus told us we will be judged for how we handle it. There is nothing wrong with Capitalism or Christianity, it's just the people that screw it up.

Magnificus
You're right about Islam. How do you negotiate with a jihadist muslim whose founder wrote that it is permissable to lie to non believers? How did Christians get the rep for what Muslims actually do. If you non Chritistians think Christians are oppressive, go to Pakistan and try to shave your beard, or women try to walk around in sleevless dresses or slacks without a cover on your head. The more I learn about Islam from former Islamists, the more dangerous it sounds.

The Politics of Dismissal
When Barbara Boxer attempted to dimiss Condi Rice with the comment about her having little to lose in Iraq, it really brought home the strategy of Democrats in the political discourse of the day. Approach a Democrat on Iraq, and they will ask you if you've served. Approach them on abortion, and they will tell you that you are a man, and you cannot speak on the issue. Approach them on any issue under the Sun, and they will tell you that you're of the wrong religious persuasion, ethnic persuasion, economic background or species to comment on whatever topic they wish to dominate. Tis much easier to dismiss you than it is to defeat you on sound logic.

On that note, how many liberal jurists recuse themselves from votes versus conservatives. Conservatives are quick to recuse themselves from any votes in fear of whatever conflict of interest liberals can dream up, but we all kind of snicker and shrug when Ginsberg votes on matters involving the ACLU. Liberals seemingly have no problem with conflicts of interest, because their votes are too meaningful.

I do not refer to recipients
I refer to people who try to shirk their duty to their children and to the poor by dumping those duties on the government. I don't see any compassion in that. People can get higher education, and still be ignorant, and they can work a job, and still be slothful.

Look at how little attention is paid to the activities of politicians. If the public was truly informed and motivated, we could throw out the corruption on election day. As long as people are comfortable, they are going to be satisfied with what we have.

In many ways the socialist mentality is the ultimate selfishness. We can always point to other people who have more than we have, so we point to those who have less as a justification for taking wealth from the producers. As long as we get our "share" the system has worked.

Re: RiverKing 10:18am
That comment about the edict of George Bush and converting to his religion leads me to ask:

Is all of Massachusetts converted to Mormonism?

Political Candidates
Why would anyone in this country today run for political office?

It's a shame but no wonder that good people such as Vin Webber and Sam Nunn walked away from comfortable seats in the House and Senate. The partisan bickering must be intolerable. Lack of civility.

Many of my friends disagree with me on politics and/or religion, but we are still friends. Why can't we look at who people are rather than what they are?

Political atheism & consistency
voice_of_reason wrote in "Political atheism & consistency" ... " all major religions extol the virtues of self-sacrifice. And that is the moral basis of socialism."

This is so naive as to be criminal. Socialism is the powerful government seizing your assets and time for its own purposes. There is no self-sacrifice -- it's all seizure, even if you happen to agree with the program. The recipient of your "largesse" develops the feeling of entitlement, and you get the feeling of being robbed instead of charitable. Morally, the system fails on multiple levels. If you develop feelings of "charity" and self-congratulation in this kind of a system, you're only fooling yourself.
Also, I don't think Scientologists extol self-sacrifice, but I could be wrong, and hey maybe they're not "major" anyway.

Naive & criminal (maybe)
ColumbusCon,

Perhaps you have misunderstood my point. Try scratching a little bit below the surface.

Yes, as you say: "Socialism is the powerful government seizing your assets and time for its own purposes".

But what is it that makes people consent to such policies? Why have so many generations of people fallen for the CONCEPT of Communist or socialism? What is it that glorifies 're-distribution' to the point that no one dare oppose it for the evil that it truly represents?

Obviously, once a country is in the hands of Communists, they are able to use force to stay in power. But what would you say about our own country's voluntary, but inevitably leftward slide? What makes people voluntarily vote in favor of socialist programs such as public education, welfare, universal health care - and continue to support them DESPITE the obvious failures?

After all, there is such a thing as the "consent of the governed". And, if the governed (read: voters) are susceptible to the creed of self-sacrifice, they are prime targets for re-distributionist ideas.

And THAT is the point of my post - that the concept of self-sacrifice loads the dice in favor of socialism. Since the creed of self-sacrifice comes from institutionalized religion, I state that socialists take advantage of our 'religious bias towards self-sacrifice' and subvert it for their purposes.

If we don't understand the origin of our society's attraction to socialist ideas, we will not be able to defeat it.

Since this thread is now becoming inactive (it is two days old), feel free to visit http://voice.townhall.com to express your ideas on this topic. You will find other topics that you may find interesting.

lilly
Your ignorance is encyclopedic.

voice of reason
Excellent insights. But, capitalism does have a religious element, just ask Frank Borman (CEO Eastern Airlines):

"Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell."

Don't know how that fits in....but I just love that quote. Sorry.





Capitalism / virtue
Many wise people have written on the virtues and evils of capitalism, of which there is plenty of fodder for both arguments. I doubt I can add anything much to it. But, that won't stop me from trying. I guess we need to remember that capitalism is an economic system and religion is........well it's religion, it's not an economic system. Vibrant communities of faith can exist under any economic organizing principle. The main virtue of capitalism for people of faith is that it allows them to freely practice that faith without imposition from the state, though that restrain by the state isn't due to the economic system per se, but from the liberty that comes from the limited central government which allows that capitalism to flourish.

On the other hand, people of faith can and should be the collective conscious of the capitalistic economic system. Faith and religion can, and does, flourish in any economic system as history has shown. However, it flourishes most in societies with limited central government. The US used to be one of those countries.

Ironically, what seems to be happening to me is that those in favor of more and more government control are in fact pushing their religion on others, not the other way around. Those in favor of more government control don't trust private enterprise and/or faith based entities to provide for the needs of the less fortunate. Their "faith" is in the central government. Their view is that a powerful government coercing people to support their "faith" based ideas (welfare, radical unreasoned environmentalism, etc.) is virtuous and the ultimate benefit to society.

Ignoring history, common-sense, human nature, and reason they fail to see that the system they desire will ultimately lead to the least good for the most people instead of the most good for the most people. People, even people of faith, rarely do things for any reason other than self interest. If the purveyors of bigger government were honest with themselves they would see that self interest is why they do what they do also.
Self interest is good, so long as people are willing to help those which are less fortunate. That isn't a function of economics though, but of religion.

One quote to make my point:

(James 1:26-27 NIV) "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Capitalism and socialism in reality, aren't the 'pure religion' that looks after orphans and widows in distress. That is what people of faith should be about regardless of the economic system. The economic system only has the task of producing enough to be able to provide for those in need. Once the economic system fails, it is extremely difficult to adequately provide for orphans and widows. Yet, even during the depression, families and communities united to take care of each other. Would that happen today?
Could that happen today?

One unfortunate by-product of the "faith" based big government is the destruction of community. Why do I care what my neighbor is going through, I'm sure there is some government program he can avail himself of. I don't need to get involved......

I'm a 47 year old man and my godmother is a woman that my grandmother took in and raised as her own when the girls mother, a neighbor of hers, passed away and the father couldn't take care of all the
kids. This was back in the depression era. Could, or would, that happen today? My grandmother practiced pure religion by taking care of that orphan in distress (as did a couple other neighbors with sisters and brothers of my godmother). That was what people did - they took care of each other. Now days, the "faith" based big government would step in and do that task and some kid out their will be deprived of a great aunt and possible godmother. Oh well, that's progress I suppose.



hook line and sinker
Sowell:
"Today, their role is far too often to teach students what to think on everything from immigration to global warming to the new sacred trinity of "race, class and gender." "

Amen to that. Yesterday, politics was called the “dirty little secret”. Today that is no secret, but is dirtier than ever. What’s the line, "politics of dancing"?

frommissouri
Amen to your comment! When Jesus talked about the Kingdom, he wasn't referring to America, Democracy, Capitalism, Socialism, or any other economic or political system! All of these arguments advocating for any of them are simply us trying to use his words to validate our (man's) ideas. As long as the spirit is right with the individual, I can't believe God favors any political or economic structure over another one. Let each man do his duty to God and we can argue about what the collective of us will do without saying "we have God's way" and then voting on who has God's way the most. That's nonesense. VOR, Christianity doesn't naturally lean left or right. Love God and Love your neighbor. Do with it what you want and in whatever system you want. Just do it!
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.