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Tuesday, February 13, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Global Hot Air
by Thomas Sowell
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The political left's favorite argument is that there is no argument. Their current crusade is to turn "global warming" into one of those things that supposedly no honest and decent person can disagree about, as they have already done with "diversity" and "open space."

The name of "science" is invoked by the left today, as it has been for more than two centuries. After all, Karl Marx's ideology was called "scientific socialism" in the 19th century. In the 18th century, Condorcet analogized his blueprint for a better society to engineering, and social engineering has been the agenda ever since.

Not all the advocates of "global warming" are on the left, of course. Crusades are not just for crusaders. There are always hangers-on who can turn the true believers' crusades into votes or money or at least notoriety.

Whether the globe really is warming is a question about facts -- and about where those facts are measured: on land, in the air or under the sea. There is no question that there is a "greenhouse" effect. Otherwise, half the planet would freeze every night when there is no sunlight falling on it.

There is also no question that the earth can warm or cool. It has done both at one time or another for thousands of years, even before there were SUVs. If there had never been any global warming before, we wouldn't be able to enjoy Yosemite Valley today for it was once buried under thousands of feet of ice.

Back in the 1970s, the environmental hysteria was about the dangers of a new ice age. This hysteria was spread by many of the same individuals and groups who are promoting today's hysteria about global warming.

It is not just the sky that is falling. Government money is falling on those who seek grants to study global warming and produce "solutions" for it. But that money is not as likely to fall on those skeptics in the scientific community who refuse to join the stampede.

Yes, Virginia, there are skeptics about global warming among scientists who study weather and climate. There are arguments both ways -- which is why so many in politics and in the media are so busy selling the notion that there is no argument.

If you heard both arguments, you might not be so willing to go along with those who are prepared to ruin the economy, sacrificing jobs and the national standard of living on the altar to the latest in an unending series of crusades, conducted by politicians and other people seeking to tell everyone else how to live.

What about all those scientists mentioned, cited or quoted by global warming crusaders?

There are all kinds of scientists, from chemists to nuclear physicists to people who study insects, volcanoes, and endocrine glands -- none of whom is an expert on weather or climate, but all of whom can be listed as scientists, to impress people who don't scrutinize the list any further. That ploy has already been used.

Then there are genuine scientific experts on weather and climate. The National Academy of Sciences came out with a report on global warming back in 2001 with a very distinguished list of such experts listed. The problem is that not one of those very distinguished scientists actually wrote the report -- or even saw it before it was published.

One of those very distinguished climate scientists -- Richard S. Lindzen of MIT -- publicly repudiated the conclusions of that report, even though his name had been among those used as window dressing on the report. But the media may not have told you that.

In short, there has been a full court press to convince the public that "everybody knows" that a catastrophic global warming looms over us, that human beings are the cause of it, and that the only solution is to turn more money and power over to the government to stop us from our dangerous ways of living.

Among the climate experts who are not part of that "everybody" are not only Professor Lindzen but also Fred Singer and Dennis Avery, whose book "Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years," punctures the hot air balloon of the global warming crusaders. So does the book "Shattered Consensus," edited by Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia, which contains essays by others who are not part of "everybody."

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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This topic is being parlayed into junk.
America has long been vilified by the Left as destroying the planet thru resource extraction and conversion to material goods. America simply uses too much of both and all by itself is holding back global advancement of other peoples.

If we would only just share our "opportunistic wealth" among the many needy of the planet we could end all strife, disease and pollution.

That is nonsense as others have come to the fore to try and dominate thru aggression alone. We are not the bad guys if judged by our unselfish contributions to the advancement of freedoms all over the globe.

But that is not enough for the worshipers of Nature and Socialism. Instead of building others up to our level, and trade as partners and equals, we are to fall on the sword and sacrifice to compensate for what the Sun is doing to the planet, as it has for tens of millions of years. Only this time it is our fault, exclusively.

It is like the witch trials of Salem. Someone said it was us so we must burn at the stake, the only evidence is the accusation.

Accurate as always Dr. Sowell
And here's what one of the to Climatologist has to say about Global warming.

"Global warming is the “greatest deception in the history of science.”

Demo/Libs will of course deny the truth or facts. But the truth and why the Demo/Libs are pushing this become obvious in his article.

Read it for yourself here.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/steigerwald//s_492572.html

The Drudge Report just printed
an interview with the President of the Czech Republic:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm

In the article, he calls Global Warming a "false myth."

Regarding the UN Committe on Climate Change he says the following: "These people are politicized scientists who arrive there with a one-sided opinion and a one-sided assignment."

When asked why other European leaders don't express the same doubts, he said: "Other top-level politicians do not express their global warming doubts because a whip of political correctness strangles their voice."

I agree 100%!

It is like the story of the Emperor's new clothes: everyone is afraid to state the obvious, for fear of being thought a fool.

Thank goodness there is a man out there with a backbone who will speak out against this nonsense.

Incidently, President Vaclav Klaus of Czech Republic is writing a book on the subject, and it should be out soon.

I hope there will be an English translation.

Goshawk, great article as is Dr Sowell's
but did you notice this at the end:

We were having a party for my 7-year-old...a balloon had exploded. The kids were crying and I said, ‘Why are you crying?’ And they said, ‘There’s going to be another hole in the ozone.’”

I said, “Look, let the kids get on with the party. Give them another BEER. Let 'em enjoy themselves.”

Sorry to make light of a serious subject...

Thanks for the article Goshawk!
Besides refuting Global Warming, he pokes fun at the "hole in the Ozone Layer" panic.

Incidently, I asked my Leftist stepfather (with an innocent look on my face, of course): "if smog is ozone, then why doesn't it float up and fill in the hole in the ozone layer? Why isn't it good that we are making ozone down here?"

He looked confused and muttered something about it being "a different kind of ozone."

Lefties love their little hysterias.

Just a thought
Yes I saw that. And it stopped me as it did you. I assume he was trying to make a joke.

Mountain Rose
LOL! "a different kind of ozone." That's funny!

Must be a REAL SCIENTIST
cause it didn't really work.

Every one I have met or heard of can't tell a joke. Most don't know humor at all, too busy testing formulas and mapping particles, etc.

Global Warning
I remember when I was a kid in the early 1970s, that many scientists were warning of a Global Ice Age. Wonder what happened to that?

Evidently we swung the pendulum too far.

Michael Moore's brand of science rules the Global Warming crowd.

The NAS 2001 report was ghost-written?
I have heard compelling and laughable arguments on both sides of the debate. As a scientist and a skeptic of "scientific consensus" the recent attempts to silence debate has triggered my "something is amiss here" BS sensors. My field is biology, and I have known several members of the National Academy of Sciences, They have all struck me as extremely competent and sincere truth-seekers, and so I gave a great deal of credence to the NAS report. If it is true that the listed authors did not write or even see the report before it was published (and I have never known Dr. Sowell to lie), then I feel extremely betrayed.

Pappy Michael...
...What happened to that? Bush wasn't President then.

professor (truth?)
Go to this site and get an education on Climatology instead of using the Lefts propaganda. Be aware! Lots of FACTS here!

http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm

professor truth
I've bookmarked the link you provided, and perhaps it will be useful. However your condescension in calling everybody posting here an ignoramus hardly inspires confidence in your judgment or your impartial search for truth. Ergo, I just could not bring myself to capitalize your pretentious pseudonym.

The Chilling Stars
The work on the effect of cosmic rays on climate (through cloud creation) has been distilled into another book The Chilling Stars which will be published next month. I put myself on email alert for it at Amazon.

Earth's warming/cooling cycles of a certain period (there are many different periods) have long been known to be highly correlated to sunspot activity. This was first seen by William Herschel more than 200 years ago. Only in the last few years has the mechanism by which this works been demonstrated, and this is part of the discussion in The Chilling Stars.

The Reference Frame
See also this blog by a brilliant Czech physicist:

http://motls.blogspot.com/

No further disagreement allowed!
For power-mongers to attempt to shut off all discussion of a subject is not unprecedented. I recall Ralph Nader using the same technique in his attacks on General Motors -- his pet phrase was "no honest person can differ" -- yet, only two years later, every factual allegation he had made against the Corvair and GM in general was repudiated by the NHTSA and a group of associated analysts.

Clarence Carson once noted that leftists seem to think "freedom" means "freedom of speech" plus the vote. With all due respect for Dr. Carson, the Left doesn't seem all that keen on freedom of speech any more, and as for the vote...well, we shall see.

Brett_McS
Nice site. Lots of info. Thanks for posting the link!

To professor truth
Are you ready to be "frog marched" to jail for attempted fraud?

Me happy warm up
Tywog and MugMug used to hunt mighty mammoth,but now to scared to cross ice bridge.to thin for even saber cat,only mouse or rabbit can cross.

Many people have left ice caves in search of food.Neighbors daughters husbands cousins uncle,says it is because of he who tamed fire.he say smoke from fire anger gods,and they make it hot.

Medicine man say he full of dinosaur droppings.He also say sun god told him, sun god get tummy ache every 200 lifes of man.Bellyache make sun god hotter,like when MugMug eat red berries that birds wont touch.

MugMug and Tywog say to sun god,good thing warm up,we now go south past ice to land called Indiana.

Medicine man mumbles something about junk science and media hype,and poorly educated reporters.

We no understand these powerful magic words,afraid to say words now that moon god warned us.She say magic words make research grants dry up,we no understand.

Must go now ,little Tywog needs help flaking flint for arrowheds.


To all who believe in GW
Anyone been to Buffalo lately?

Or How about Denver back around Christmas?

Chicago?

Cleveland?

I've asked this before, and I'll ask again, how is it that the eco-weenies keep releasing global warming data just as the weather turns cold and nasty in the winter? Don't they even have enough brains to do this in August when it's 104 degrees outside?

Oh, wait, I forgot, record cold temperatures are caused by Global Warming. (I've actually heard someone say that seriously.)

Here are the fundamental problems:
1. It's computer models, which models can't predict actual past weather patterns (so I'm given to understand).
2. We have NO widespread, accurate measures before the 1880s and no quantitative data at all before the 1700s. The best we have are tree and ice core samples which provide an estimate, and the estimate is not constant throughout history.
3. The claims based on satelite data are paricularly unreliable because satelites have only been around since the 60s, so they can't account for any prior data. Besides that, the Global Cooling scare happened during the first years of satelite measurements.
4. Once Global Cooling became Global Warming, the intensity and speed of warming has been revised downward to an almost negligible amount, while the catistrophic damage estimates have, in the more conservative fearmongers, stayed the same. It seems to me that as of 1986 the estimates were that half the world would be under water by now and that temperatures were going to go up by 15-20 degrees (I may be high on that figure.) Now, it's going to take 100 years to raise temperatures 2 degrees and water levels a foot. A foot, by the way, is within the difference between the highest (spring) and lowest (neap)high tides in a given month, if I'm not mistaken.
5. Even a miniscule change in solar output can have a dramatic affect on out climate, far more easily than all the CO2 we pump into the atmosphere. 1% either way can mean a tropical or ice age on this planet (akin to the prehistoric high temperatures during the Mezozoic Era when global temperatures averaged an estimated 96 degrees, or the low temperatures during the Geat Ice Age 10,000 years ago.) There are scientists who explore this posibility and those who use it to counter the fearmongers often do so at great risk to their careers and reputations within the scientific community.

tree rings
Isn't it wonderful that the left has a good tool to base their estimates on: tree rings normalized to current atmospheric conditions, backed up by ice logs, and used to predict temperature based on previous tree ring data.

One major problem with this idea is that I don't see them mentioning what happens to tree growth when you fertilize them, as a higher percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere does to trees. Since our burning of fossil fuels has altered the chemical make-up of the atmosphere (as much as a couple of large volcanos) doesn't that mean that tree ring data is now suspect?

Burn the Witch
In the past we had to sacrifice a virgin or a goat to appease the weather gods.

As we advanced, we learned that witches were actually the cause of poor rainfall, bad storms, etc. so we gathered up all the witches and burned them.

Now we figured it out....it's SUVs!!

In 500 years, all 3 "causes" will probably be listed in the same sentence of children's history books. "In primitive societies, mankind was very superstitious and believed they could control the weather. Naive men tried sacrificing virgins, killing witches, or even believed they could affect the weather by riding a bicycle."

They Agree
99 of 100 Alaskans surveyed agree - Global Warming is a GOOD thing. Problem is - Alaska has seen no warming. That fraction of a degree centigrate increase over the past 100 years must have happened someplace else.

the choice
Either global warming is not partly as a result of man's actions or it is. Either way, the choice is pretty straightforward - we try to do something about it now or we don't. If it turns out to be wrong the result is that we have wasted some money and made the earth's finite resources go a bit further than they otherwise might. If it turns out to be true and we do nothing... well, our descendants aren't going to think much of us... and those of you who believe in heaven and don't want to do anything will have an eternity to explain yourselves...

Envirus victim to his children
Bozo: "Children I have great news! To save the earth from the unspeakable evil of global warming, our Uncle Al and Cousin Kofi have outlawed carbon and oxygen, sparing the planet the ravages of CO2"
Kid: "But Daddy, but daddy, won't that make life as we know it impossible?"
Bozo: STF up. you know we all have to make small sacrifices for the environment."

cows
Weren't there studies that say that cows release more gas into the atmosphere than all the SUV's, factories, etc., put together? Does that mean we kill all the cows?
What about the earth wobbling, the magnetic fields changing (learned that in junior high in the early 60's)? What about tectonic plates shifting making the oceans (or landmass) rise and fall? What about the volcanic activity (like the magma chamber in Yellowstone Park growing and shifting the lake level? (Gotta love the Discovery Channel!)

Global hot air
Funny how America can and must save the world from all evils of the world militarily, but from pollution it is absolutely impotent.

Mr. Sowell may well be the source of global hot air that he complains about. Don't they have any mirrors at Sanford?

How does one deny the existence of industrialism? In Massachusetts, where it all started, there is not one clean lake left. Surely man does have an impact on his environment, and this was true even in agrarian times. The Magna Carta also deals with the issue of stewardship of the land.

Some people are so blinded by their lust for money that they cannot see anything clearly.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

To CB
Wasted some money. SOME money??? Get real, go look up the ultra-low figures that the Klintons estimated, look at the figures that others have stated. I'll tell you what, you pay for it ALL since it's so low ad I'll vote for it.

Vic
It's all just money at the end of it... some money... well, yes, it is just some money. There are benefits of spending now - as I said, at least one positive of taking action now is that the world's finite resources will last a little longer. But is that what it boils down to for you? Money? Nice attitude. If, and it does remain an if, by spending now we can avoid the worst case scenario, it doesn't matter what it costs.

Science?
The same ones who advocate passionately for global warming tend to be the ones who hold to Darwinian evolution. Note the similarity between the two, as evidenced by the smear and disinformation campaign from the Darwinists in my state of Kansas the two times the State School Board authorized teaching the debate within science (not all scientists are mindless lemmings) over the validity of molecules to man evolution.

Tree ring data and carbon data are both scientifically suspect, and are often manipulated to provide the answer the researcher had already decided he wanted.

Most of the same scientists also deny the obvious scientific evidence that the result of the fertilization of a human egg in the womb is a tiny human being, size appropriate for its age. So-called science like this will be the end of us all.

Critical Bill
Your version of Poincare's Gambit is specious, as the "if there is option" for Poincare had little cost, while your has a high cost.

Your argument could be better stated:

If there isn't and we act as if there is, we destroy any future economic growth, leaving ourselves and our children impoverished.

Your version makes little metnion of the catastrophic effect Kyoto and other plans would have on the US (but not on qual polluters China and India).

It is not a matter of "slowing growth a bit", more aking to "shooting ourselves in the head".

Fiddler1
No, people who think that the opinons of the overwhlming majority of the scientific world are nonsense will probably be the end of us all. Global warming is real, even though the causes of it are debateable and remain thoeries, just as evolution remains a theory. Both theories are generally accepted because there is no alternative theory that better explains these events. What is your scientific background to claim that they "are not all mindless lemmings"? If you are a research scientist with in depth knowledge based on proprietary research I take it back; somehow I doubt if you are though. The fact is that ALL data can be interpreted in different ways, although I'm yet to see any data that suggests that the earth is 6,000 years old...

Steve
Not ONE clean lake in Mass.? Are you serious?

Well, yes, there are a lot of acidic lakes in Mass., but they were also recorded by the natives before any Europeans settled. It is common in granite areas with little ground cover to reduce rain acifdity (see also Scandanavia), mainly due to prehistoric glaciation removing the soil above the granite.

Hard to blame western man for that, I believe.

The bad company's enough 4 me
Hell, even if I thought it made sense, I'd stay away from global warming out of simple fear of losing my mind -- like Al Gore obviously has.

Typo
Should read "equal polluters China and India"

Which leads me to ask: Bill, if we are sos erious bout stopping global warming, why does Kyoto exclude heavy polluters such as China? Shouldn't all nations have to sacrifice if it is a real worry? If it is a true global crisis why are the Kyoto protocols only targetted at western nations, especially the US? How will that work? Pollution from China won't cause global warming? Somehow on'es ideology controls pollution?

Holdouts
When the Senate voted on the Iraq invasion there were a few voting against. Nevertheless, it was correctly reported that support for the invasion was overwhelming. Now, among the hundreds of climate scientists studying global warming you can count those against on the fingers of one hand. This column named all three of them.

Just to put this in persepecive, Albert Einstein never believed quantum mechanics. He argued against the uncertainty principle until his death in 1955. He never believed in the "Fermi surface", which is what gave the scientists at Bell labs (just a few miles from Princeton) the idea for semiconductors, which now are the basis for computers and blogs like this.

Andrews
The current administration is doing a fine job of destroying future economic growth by itself. Remind me, how much has been spent on the Iraq campaign? Come on, you must know the numbers. Enough to more than compensate for the costs of Kyoto, that's for sure.
But we don't destroy future economic growth; as I have said if by acting now we make the earth's finite resources go further. Please explain to me how that destroys future growth?

Liberlgoodman
Dixie Lee Ray is the fourth of "all three" scientists I suppose. Funny that you malign the skeptics by saying "there are only three of them", as if numbers were somehow equated with truth...

So, because atheists are a minotiry in the US, the truth of religion is proven?

Same logic you use.

And as for China
Of course it and India should be included in the Kyoto agreement. I don't know why they weren't, but then I didn't write the agreement and I haven't read it cover to cover. Seems to me to be lunacy to leave China and India out of it. Still, forcing China to act means prices going up at Wal-Mart...

Globaloney is Scientism run amuck
Sowell’s most important point is known as scientism. An excellent resource is The Ascendancy of the Scientific Dictatorship by the Collins Brothers. Scientism, as Sowell points out, is a centuries old concept of managing the m-asses by what H G Wells calls a political “science”.

When the bomb shelter hysteria began to fade in the late 50’s, the Rockefellers came up with environmentalism as the next solution for creating mass hysteria. They operate through their execution arm, the UN. The UN marched out Dr. Stephen Schneider who told us that we are going to freeze to death. Well this didn’t take hold, so 20 years later they marched out Schneider again with a new message, global warming. And with much better marketing this took root. The whole point of this nonsense is merely to have the US fund third world nations by buying energy credits from them to offset our polluting (which is insignificant in relation to productivity).

Researcher Michael Hoffman, “[t]he reason that science is a bad master and dangerous servant and ought not to be worshipped, is that science is not objective. Science is fundamentally about the uses of measurement. What does not fit the yardstick of the scientist is discarded. Scientific determinism has repeatedly excluded some data from its measurement and fudged other data, such as Piltdown Man, in order to support the self-fulfilling nature of its own agenda, be it Darwinism or …..." “Scientism is science gone mad, which is what we have today.” (Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare)

“Scientism remains at the core of socio-political Utopianism. In turn, socio-political Utopianism remains at the core of all governmental aberrations. When extended beyond its legitimate fields of application, science becomes a rigid template to which even the most complex of entities, like man, must conform.” Collins, (The Global Skinner Box)

Speech before the Royal Institute of International Affairs in 1936, H.G. Wells expressed the core precept of scientism:

"At first the realization of the ineffectiveness of our best thought and knowledge struck only a few people, like Mr. Maynard Keynes, for example… It is science and not men of science that we want to enlighten and animate our politics and rule the world" (qutd. in Keith, Mind Control, World Control, 306 - 307).


Critical Bill
The costs of Kyoto are astronomic and guarantee less than 1 degree celsius temperature decrease in the most rosy estimates.

In addition, by putting a cap on energy use, they limit future growth, sot he harm is not only the current cost, but the stifling effect of future stangation.

Ande, yes, I do know the numbers. Obviously you do not.

I suggest you check the cost/degree figures on http://www.junkscience.com . Of course, you will dismiss it as propaganda because it argues against you, but try to disprove their arguments.

One more thing, at least war is a legitimate government function. Reducing carbon emissions does not appear in the version of the Constitution I have read.

See 1976-79
This is the same weather pattern we had in 1976-79 which was when I came back to the East from California so it is vividly etched upon my memory. (Notice I didn't say seared, although on a day when it's 5 degrees in Real (F) that word is warming). Only in the 1970s this was "irrefutable evidence" of Global COOLING. At least that made some kind of specious sense.

I will look for this hysterical hoo-hah again when I turn 90. That thought will not only warm me but will probably keep me alive.

See you then!

Some Money!
Critical Bill

Some money = ~$10-20 trillion in the US alone by 2050, roughly equivalent to 1-2 years GDP.

Oh, by the way, it only works if EVERYBODY else does it too!

If you don't like this estimate, create your own, but remember that "7% below 1990 levels by 2012" is only step one. You need to estimate the cost of all the steps. It gets real ugly!

not one clean lake
You can swim, but you shouldn't eat the fish.

Pollution is simply the "unnatural" concentration of natural products. Everything is from the planet, so that should be obvious. When you put oil in water, then the water is not drinkable. Similarly, if you take all the oil in the world and light it on fire, then you will pollute the air. Oil in the oil bed is not "pollution," but oil in the air is pollution.

It is not a denial of global warming that is the issue, but a denial of ANY definition of pollution. As we have more people, who consume very differently than animals, then it is inevitable that we will make more pollution. Animals do not change concentrations in nature very much, humans do it on a wide scale.

The word pollution is very human-centric concept. Just as development displaces natural wildlife, pollution has the effect of "displacing" human health as we introduce chemicals into our habitat (the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat.) We will not pay for our mistakes, future generations will, just as we pay for the mistakes of future generations.

Progress and growth is a double-edged sword. Like most things in life, self-restraint is a critical component to a good society. Mr. Sowell argues that self-restraint is a bad thing because he has no consistent definition of what is good beyond "profit."

www,behappyandfree.com

To CB
Does your answer mean that you have agreed to pay for it all? I'm sure you can handle the chump change of a few trillion dollars.

Andrews
Junkscience is indeed propaganda and is dismissed by the overwhelming majority of scientists. I just don't get this vehement opposition and find it baffling that global warming and attempts to combat it generate such animosity. I had friends from Alaska here for christmas and in the ten years they have been there they said that they have noticed a real change in weather patterns. They don't have any political agenda, they just live there. Global warming is real, it will cost money to tackle and some sacrifice must be made. Perhaps it's the concept of sacrifice that is so hard for you guys to understand.

Steve
So, every lake in Mass contains toxins in concentrations great enough to prevent you from eating the fish?

And, besides your assertions, what proof is there of this?

So, the Massachusettes Division of Fisheries & Wildlife publishes a list of public fishing spots. Does this mean they are encouraging people to poison themselves? How many fishermen died fo these toxic fish you believe to exist in every pond?

In short, where are you getting this highly suspect statement that every lake in Massachusetts is polluted to a point where you cannot eat the fish?


Critical Bill
Considering that most of Junksciennce is links to other scientists, how could most scientists reject it? Do they reject the peer reviewed articles cross posted there?

And I am glad you ahve such scientific rebuttals as "most sceintists" don't take it seriously and "some friends" say that they see changes.

For someone who claims they are taking the scientific position, you have little but anecdotal evidence and unsubstantiated criticisms.

Tell me what is incorrect on junk science. Just one ro two things. Go on.

The cost does matter
Global warming is like Jason from Friday the 13th. All adults know he is not real and he is just there to scare us.

The facts show that Climate change is normal and has been on going since the earth formed.

Since climate change is by mother nature and not man, then how can man stop it? Can we stop a volcano from erupting? How about a Hurican? Tornados? Rain? Sunny days? Stop the wind from blowing?

Nature will find a way. These process' have been going on since the beggining.

Also it is worthy to note that the people who want us to do the drastic and extreme changes in the name of Global Warming know and have stated that such changes will have NO impact on the problem! It is a money pit and another tool of the anti capitalist to try and destroy society.

I would like to think that one day our children will look back at the Global Warming nonesense and laugh at how stupid the so called experts on Global Warming are just as the experts used to say the world was flat. But in reality it is the liberals who are teaching in the schools, writing the history books, and fighting this crusade. They have been in this fight for 150 years, and only getting more rabid.

Critical Bill
I object to sacrifice to avert a problem that may not exist, correct. That is not an irrational or selfish position.

But you can prove yourself the better man. Martians will kill us all unless you mail me all your wealth. Hurry! What, you aren't willing to sacrifice?

Simple Test...
Meteorologist can't tell us what the temperature is going to be at a specific place on earth 2 weeks from now with any degree of accuracy, but "climatologists" can tell you what the temperature of the whole world will be 100 years from now.

I used to think that being a meteorologist was the best job in the world, because you could be wrong half the time, and still keep your job.

But I think that being a climatologist is an even better job, since right or wrong, neither you nor your boss will be around to see if you were right.

Critical Bill
The vehement objection is because the GW proponents say "You must sacrifice and do with less because we have discovered this danger you can't see and we can't conclusively prove, but it demands you give up most of your wealth and live in thrid world conditions." This may explain why people are not happy with GW proponents. Your evidence is highly speculative (mostly computer models of dubious accuracy) and you insist that, based only on this flimsy evidence, everyone must give up much of their wealth and comfort to avert a disaster.

Don't you see why this might get a bit of a bad reaction?

JC Dean
What a load of cobblers. "Another tool of the anti-capitalist to attempt to destroy society"????? That's the sort of menatlist comment that really adds to the debate...

Andrews
Who the hell said this:
"You must sacrifice and do with less because we have discovered this danger you can't see and we can't conclusively prove, but it demands you give up most of your wealth and live in thrid world conditions."
If you can provide me with a source for that quote then I stand corrected. However, I think you just made it up to reinforce your hysterical opinions, didn't you?

On junkscience
I know wikipedia isn't the be all and end all Andrews, but anyone can go in and edit it so I suggest you find this paragraph and correct it...


The term was further popularised by Fox News columnist Steven Milloy, who used it to attack the results of scientific research on global warming, ozone depletion, passive smoking and many other topics. The credibility of Milloy's website junkscience.com, was questioned by Paul D. Thacker, a writer for The New Republic in the wake of evidence that Milloy had received funding from Phillip Morris, RJR Tobacco, and Exxon Mobil. [5][6][7] Following the publication of this article the Cato Institute, which had hosted the junkscience.com site, ceased its association with the site and removed Milloy from its list of adjunct scholars.


It's obvious
Prof T did not look at the link provided by Dr Sowell. He would have found some disagreement with his articles of faith.

The most telling info I have seen is from a pro-warming site that admits they are not sure about the accuracy of long term , large scale forecasts.

Look behind the curtain
Someone asked why this issue is divided down political lines. It's actually very simple, you just need to see who benefits from this scare. Same as solving a murder, the police first determine who is most likely to benefit...and then you have usually found your killer.

The MEDIA may uses it for sensational headlines and programming and/or to advance their and their employers' social and political agendas.

PERSONAL INJURY LAWYERS will use this to bamboozle juries into awarding huge verdicts. Large verdicts may then be used to extort even greater sums from deep-pocket businesses fearful of future jury verdicts.

SOCIAL ACTIVISTS will try to use this to achieve social and political change.

GOVERNMENT REGULATORS will use it to expand their authority and to increase their budgets.

POLITICIANS will use it to curry favor with special interest groups or to be "politically correct."



Which political group do you think these individuals are most likely to belong?

Critical Bill
No one said those words. But what is the logical outcome of Kyoto? If we must pay to enact Kyoto, where does the money come from? The toothfairy?

It comes from us, so to pay for Kyoto we must become poorer. Also, Kyoto puts a cap on carbon released, which caps industrial growth, which reduces future opportunity and makes us all poorer.

Enacting Kyoto will entail great economic hardships by its very nature.

Are you blind? this is obvious even to Kyoto supporters.

Critical Bill
So, who cares who fund Milloy? Do I criticze your GW proponents for getting money from left wing groups? Of course groups will fund people with whom they agree. That does not prove anything about what was said. The proof stands or falls regardless of the funding, and you have yet to show me the one falsehood that I asked for.

And I don't care about Cato's sponsorship. Cato has been wrong on positions before. Cato is made up of fallible humans, and they can and do make the wrong choice at times.

Andrews
No, it is not the logical outcome of Kyoto. Yes, sacrifice is required. But if you think it means that the end result will be America reverting to living in teepees and a living in a buffalo hide-based economy you are clearly demented.

Critical Bill
You are pretty dense, aren't you?

I ask for a false statement on junkscience.com, so you tell me he is funded by big bad tobacco groups!

I personify the GW movement and use that rhetorical effect to sumarize their arguments, and you take it literally.

When someone says "America asks her citizenss' support", do you think someone named America literally said "I am my citizens' support"?

Now, please show me a falsehood on junkscience. And tell me how you can implement Kyoto without cost to us.

Critical Bill
You use sacrifice to describe it, so tell me, what will we sacrifice? Come on, since you know all. How much will we have to give up for Kyoto? And what good will it do, oh wise one?

liberalgoodman
Contrary to the global warming alarmist lie you have just repeated, you will find thousands of scientists just on this site alone who are skeptical of the claims of you Al Gore types.

http://oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

CB
Which of the world's "finite resources" will "last a little longer" if all the recommendations of the global warming scaremongers are accepted? (Do you even realize how silly you sound to those of us who have a legitimate science background?)

Andrews
Your dementia is gathering pace as I write... if you can't see that tobacco and oil paying for junkscience kinda might slant its "conclusions" one way or antoher then you're a lost cause. Of course scientists get their funding from one place or another but the majority get it from government grants and grants given out by academic institutions and are therefore slightly more neutral than a big tobacco or oil firm. I'm not a scientist, but then neither is Molloy. He just says what his paymasters tell him to say. junkscience is an opinoin site disguised as science, therefore there isn't really a "right" or "wrong" about it, just as there isn't here at Townhall. I still don't get your animosity; are you terrified that you or your children might someday find out what it is like to go without? Like most of the world does?

Andrews YOU GO MAN
I can tell your pretty passionate about this.

Give Critical Bill a break though. Libs have a hard time spotting a fact from an opinion or correlation from causation.

To Happy Jake
Actually the claim that global warming is responsible for the extreme cold is a favorite of enviros. On another chat line the other day, I was informed that the last ice age was caused by global warming. Of course I was called the usual names meaning ignorant when I inquired if the figured that out when they found prehistoric SUVs and drilling rigs.

Andrews
Kyoto's worse than a terribly costly solution to a problem that may or may not exist. Even presuming the problem exists in its presently advocated state (the end of the world in 100 years) the terribly costly "solution" will only delay the catastrophe by 10 years. It's like going into a trauma center with a gunshot wound to the chest, getting a bandaid, and having to pay $50,000 for the treatment. You're still going to die, it might just take you a few more minutes to bleed out, but those who survive you will have nothing.

To the Liberals:
If it doesn't exist, or if it won't hurt us (which is as likely as every other scenario, perhaps more so) then leave it alone and let us prosper.

If it does exist AND it's going to hurt us (Probably the least likely ACTUAL scenario) then FIX it. Don't put on politically expedient bandaids. Don't target a few nations while ignoring the worst poluters owing to their "developing" status. And, for the love of Pete, let us use something other than coal to produce electricity. Nuclear and Hydro power are emmission free, perfectly safe (as long as it isn't '70s era, Soviet-level technology), and incredibly efficient.

Wind and solar may work in SoCal, but in the rest of the country, we have this stuff called "Weather" that actually changes from time to time. Some days (yesterday in DC, in fact) it's even both cloudy AND calm at the same time. Matter of fact, it's cloudy, calm and snowing in DC right now. If you want emission-free power, then let us build it and stop whining about Nuclear and Hydro being bad for the environment.

fiddler1
Give it up. The global warming and evolution controversies are very different. The global warming controversy consists of politicized scientists attempting to shout down other science and scientists. Admittedly, the Left has made "environmentalism" its new religion and behaves accordingly. The evolution controversy involves religionists attempting to pass off their religious views as science.

CB
"...The current administration is doing a fine job of destroying future economic growth by itself..."


Do you even read the pap you write? Can you cite even one statistic and real number that supports this supremely moronic claim?

Buzzkat
You're the scientist, you explain to me how resources can be maintained at the current rate of consumption? You explain it to me, you're the scientist.

GW Solution!
Well the ultimate solution to global warming is nuclear winter! Lets nuke Iran and the Norks and end alot of foolishness already!

The New Diversity Racket
Dr. Sowell mentions diversity as one of those ideas that has somehow been made into something that no honest and decent person can disagree about. I agree, and I believe that Al Gore and his cronies are going to use the diversity business model for their own nascent industry -- Global Warming Scaremongering. As I have written before, I totally admire Al Gore for his post political career. He didn't just start and run his own business; he virtually created an entire industry and managed to position himself as the chief spokesman and authority on the matter -- with absolutely no scientific credentials to boot.

So how does Al Gore fully leverage his industry and his position within that industry to maximize his returns. I say that he looks to the "diversity" business model pioneered by Jesse Jackson. This applies precisely because they are both ideas that no honest and decent person can disagree about.

Gore will try and shame businesses and industries into cooperating with him through his power to annoint the good guys and the bad guys in the Global Warming Crusade. How does a business cooperate with Gore? By purchasing "clean" technology from a Gore-affiliated manufacturer. By contributing to the "causes" near and dear to the heart of Al Gore. By hiring a Gore-sanctioned environmental consulting business. By distributing Gore made propoganda and seminars to their employees. All of which won't amount to a hill of beans in so far as the carbon footprint that will be avoided through the Gore-sanctioned actions that are taken -- but it makes for good show. These are the carrots that if nibbled upon by the business will put them in good stead with American opinion.

But what if they don't bite? What's the stick? Negative Publicity in the form of protests, boycotts, and unfavorable media. Perhaps even the threat of government examination of their business practices. Believe me, you and your shareholders don't want to risk the wrath of Al Gore and the Global Warming Crusaders.

Does all of this sound eerily familiar? Yes, old Jesse is probably kicking himself for not expanding his business model into other avenues. And to think that Al Gore was clever enough to figure this all out and run with it! I've got to hand it to Al Gore, he really surprised me with his business acumen and smarts!

Critical Bill
So anyone getting money from the Tides Foundation is a tool of the Democratic party, since Heinz money funds Tides? And anyone associated with George Soros backing can be trusted to give a completely one-sided position as well? And anyone receiving any government money will always spout the party line in support of the US?

The last should show how absurd your claim is. Thousands receive NEA grants then proceed to engaging in anti-government posturing. Obviously the source of their funding does not change their actions. So why would science be so beholdn to their sponsors?

But, if you can't find an error in junkscience, I guess your ad hominem attacks are the best you can do.

Since you have been reduced to guilt by association, then I will stop responding to you. It is obvious you are a blind partisan who has memorized some talking points, but forgot to memorize one showing how junkscience is wrong. All you can say is "why won't you sacrifice", "it won't cost us" and "the concensus is right", along with a few personal attacks. No point in even refuting those.

Buzzcat
How much does the States owe China? What's the current budgeet deficit? I ought to agree with you though. As a writer of relentlessly moronic pap, at least you recognise it when you see it.

Why
Does it seem that the biggest proponents of GW have to need to sacrifice themselves beyond perhaps changing their light bults to flourecent? How many of them plan to stay home on thier vacations this year? Well of course 500 gallons of fuel they use is no problem, just the 20 gallons I use.
I keep asking if Gore is such a believer why isn't he using the internet he invented to get the word out instead of flying all over the world in his private jet, and encouraging followers to burn even more fuel to go see him.

CB
"...Of course scientists get their funding from one place or another but the majority get it from government grants and grants given out by academic institutions and are therefore slightly more neutral than a big tobacco or oil firm. I'm not a scientist, but then neither is Molloy..."


Governments and academic institutions don't have political biases? That's a new one on me as a scientist (which you're not).

Andrews
Rather than whine at me why don't you go and write something for your blog? Or did you just want your username underlined?

Buzzcat
Rather than just moaning on about how much of a scientist you are, why not prove it by answering my question about finite resources? Yes governments and universities have political biases, but not in quite the explicit way that Exxon does.

CB
"How much does the States owe China? What's the current budgeet deficit?"


Graphic proof that you are a flaming idiot when it comes to economics. Why don't you go live in that paragon of freedom and high standard of living then? I strongly suggest you stop writing about topics you have no education in (economics and science), so you won't illustrate to the rest of the world what a flaming fool you are.

Buzzcat
What kind of scientist are you? One who can't answer any questions? I repeat, how much does thae States owe China? And what is the current budget deficit?

cb
"You're the scientist, you explain to me how resources can be maintained at the current rate of consumption? You explain it to me, you're the scientist. "

Which resources would those be? Known reserves of most resources have actually increased over the past century. Not one doom and gloom prediction has ever come close to being correct, but if you wish to continue to flagellate yourself, be my guest. There is one infinite resource which will never go away, namely, the human mind, which to date has improved the world's standard of living since the first tool was developed a few million years ago. I don't see a halt to this trend for the next several million years, do you?

BoreGore still doesn't get it
He refused to accept loss of presidency (in 2000--no winner of presidency, AFAIK, has ever LOST his home state thumpingly unlike BoreGore's loss of TN), and is trying to place himself as a "saviour" now. Basically, that's how he arrived at the "10 years left to fix"--read as "2 years to the next election; you have to elect me to fix the problem, and let me rule-by-decree for full 8".

For HappyJake: no, I haven't been to Buffalo, Cleveland or Chicago recently--but we got some single-digit temps in Balto (which, being coastally-moderated, doesn't normally get them). Also, I'd like to see BoreGore explain how Delhi and Agra got 28-degree temps (that was FARENHEIT, not CENTIGRADE--a good 12 degrees below "bottom-of-barrel" range for these two cities) a year ago.

Science
I understand scientists have determined that it's getting warmer on Mars. Who knew they has SUV'S there?

cb
"What kind of scientist are you? One who can't answer any questions? I repeat, how much does thae States owe China? And what is the current budget deficit?"

I will not bother to explain elementary economics to you. Read Sowell's, Reynolds' and Williams' columns on this site to educate yourself. They deal in detail with the topic of "deficits" and what it means.

Sammy
Ding, Ding...."Bullseye!....Sally, what do we have for our winner?"

Unfortunately, and sadly, you nailed it.

Buzzcat
That's a decent answer for once. And amazingly one that I mostly agree with - there has been 30 years of oil left for about the last 100 years... but at some point 30 years of oil left will be right, won't it? And at some point there will be 10 years left. And so on. No matter how clever we are.

The UN's Agenda 21
Anyone ever read this? If not, you should. A lot of your questions would be answered. We are following this, whether our elected public servants admit it or not.

kimstalinistidiot
"Here's a fact
The only naysayers of global warming of note are in the employ of oil companies. "Of note" of course being those with so-called scientific credentials. (Rush Limbaugh doesn't count - but he is quite likely a benefactor of the big oil companies.)"


Actually, Democrats are huge beneficiaries of oil companies and other corporations, which is a bad thing for your hypocritical butt, but that's a topic for another thread.

Lindzen
Singer
Cristy
Seitz



These are just a handful of climatologists who have nothing to do with oil companies, using your idiotic assumption, of course, that real science can't be performed outside Leftist institutions.

Go back to your hate politics, you're out of your league here.

Kimberly
FYI, the electricity running your PC is.....are you ready for this..... generated by oil from the "Big Oil" companies (insert sinister music).

So why don't you do your part to help global warming and turn off your PC...forever.

Another article
Here's another recent article refuting man-made global warming:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0

Anyone ever read Gore's book, "Earth in the Balance". It's a 10 step plan for how to turn the U.S. into a 3rd world country.

Critical Bill
You forget that by stifling economic development, you may be hindering the very R&D that will lead to the technologies to reduce pollution. Across the vast history of mankind, prosperous and free societies have been healthier and cleaner societies; and conversely, impoverished societies have been more polluted and less healthy. In our time, the reductions in pollution and its related problems have been pioneered by the free market/western societies. Countries and populations in the 2nd and 3rd world are too busy surviving in the present to concern themselves with long-term problems. Also, it goes against the popular wisdom, but in fact, the most polluted countries in the 1st and 2nd world are the former "people's republics." Lakes in New England? I'd sooner take a dip in any of them than some of the bodies of water that have become toxic soups in formerly Socialist Eastern Europe. I'll bet you a HEPA-filtered air cleaner from a big box store that Richard Branson's $25 million buys more results than $25 million in government programs.

Bill
I think you will find that there is quite an abundance of oil left. Some of it is harder to get to because it is deeper or in frozen territories, such as Russia. It definitely makes it harder to get at and thus more expensive. Now, I for one, think we should be working on alternative fuel, so we wouldn't be dependant on a foreign country for our fuel. But, there's still a lot of oil.

Who is praying FOR Global Warming today?
Here is a sampling of weather conditions today:
http://home.accuweather.com/index.asp?partner=accuweather

"Severe Weather Update
Dangerous Blizzard & Tornadoes
(State College, PA) - The storm system spreading snow across the Midwest and tornadoes and severe thunderstorms across the South will develop into. . . "

"Storm's Impacts Today
Valentine`s Day Nor`easter
New England Blizzard
Dangerous Blizzard & Tornadoes
Updated Snowfall Forecast Map
Severe Thunderstorms Too
Brutal Behind the Storm
A Cross Section of the Storm
A Look at Winter Storms"
*********************************
Let's check out one of these headlines, shall we?:

"New England BlizzardUpdated: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:02 AM
When the Nor'easter begins to reach its maximum intensity, the storm will unload a blizzard over northern New England and Atlantic Canada on Wednesday night. While plenty of moisture in the atmosphere will result in heavy snow, strong winds whipping around the storm will reduce visibility to near zero, making travel extremely dangerous. By Thursday, the heaviest snow will come to an end, but howling winds will continue to blow the snow around."
Story by AccuWeather.com Meteorologist Kristina Baker
http://headlines.accuweather.com/news-story.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&article=2
********************************

Hey, and let's check out the snowfall map, shall we?:

"Updated Snowfall Forecast MapUpdated: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:02 AM
Over 6 inches of snow will fall across a wide portion of the nation, from Illinois east to Pennsylvania and north into New England. As the storm rapidly intensifies off the Eastern Seaboard, snowfall amounts will exceed a foot from the northern tier of Pennsylvania through much of upstate New York and into interior New England. The highest elevations will receive amounts of over 18 inches.
Sleet and rain will mix in along the East Coast, keeping accumulations down in the major cities along the I-95 corridor. However, a significant accumulation of ice will be possible in some areas away from the water. Rain will freeze on contact as temperatures remain at or below freezing. A buildup of ice could down trees and power lines, potentially creating widespread power outages."
Story by AccuWeather.com Meteorologist Brian Frugis
http://headlines.accuweather.com/news-story.asp?partner=accuweather&traveler=0&article=3
***************************************

They say if you want to tell a lie, make it a real whopper, and the suckers are more likely to believe it.

Global Warming is the biggest whopper I have ever heard.

As P.T. Barnum said; "There is a sucker born every minute."


I find it interesting...
... that those who support the global warming hysteria (in this case Critical Bill), and other such junk/fad science, discredit studies contrary to their views by trying to say that the results are bought and paid for by "special interests".

Yet this same concern doesn't seem to arise if the studies conform to their own world view, an example being the absurdly flawed "studies" that have led to "second-hand smoke" hysteria funded by such groups as the American Cancer Society and the Center for Science in the Public Interest, neither of which can be held to be non-partisan by any reasonable observer.

We're seeing the next round of liberal paternalism rear its ugly head in the current controversy over trans fats.

This is what happens when scientific objectivity is sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. Very sad.

Kim & Bill
You really ought to read the UN's Agenda 21.

This blame on humans for global warming is a part of this. Now, I am not saying that humans have not polluted the heck out of some things. I surely am not. In fact, it makes me madder than heck that I can't eat fish any longer because of all the friggin' mercury in them.

But, that does not mean that man is the cause of global warming. What this is, is all part of the whole globalism or world government thing that has been going on for a long, long time and they are close to the end goal. No one ever thought it would happen, but just how the frog was cooked, slowly, so were we.

Seriously, do some checking into Agenda 21.

Critical Bill
Your arguments are so full of logical fallacies that I hardly know where to start.

You question the legitimacy of the information on the Junkscience website because of the funding source. This is a case of argumentum ad hominem. You make an attack that does not provide evidence to counter the premise questioning global warming.

In several posts you set up Straw Man arguments in an attempt to distract us from the real discussion.

You support you view points by attempting to appeal to authority and appeal to belief without providing the evidence necessary to support your claims.

Furthermore, I have actually read all of the reports and find that Junkscience has a great deal of legitimate scientific data that I can support with cross-referencing to other sources. All of the GW support is suspect because they all refer back to the same source of information - flawed computer models that assume the output of the sun to be a constant.

One of the most amusing arguments...
Crackpot loony tune leftists like "professor truth" KNOW they are losing this battle. They overplayed their hand, and by a LONG SHOT. In a series of newspaper articles over the past 4 or 5 months in USA Today, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and other papers, the global warming scarmongerers have begrudgingly admitted that they cried wolf WAY too loudly, that they were emphasizing the absolute worst of the worst scenerios, and ignoring any and all evidence that brings their kooky notions into question. Nearly every climatologist on both sides of the argument dismissed AlGore's "An Inconvenient Truth" as nothing by science fiction that was so far exaggerated, that only a half witted moron would take any of it seriously.

But that hasn't stopped the global warming scarmongerers from continuing to try to scare the world into a panic. Their latest tactic to discredit anyone who brings up the TRULY inconvenient truths that the global warming "science" is "the biggest fraud in the history of science" is to accuse them of being "shills" to the oil companies. "ExxonMobil has funneled nearly $16 million" to fund the "skeptics", they scream.

But let's look at that. Supposedly, ExxonMobile donated almost $16 million to 43 different foundations that include people who dare to not walk lockstep, unquestioningly, with the scaremongers between 1998 and 2005. In case you are counting, that is an average donation of $46,000 per foundation per year. Please keep in mind that in 2005 ALONE, that very same "evil" ExxonMobile donated $150,000 to Habitat for Humanity, yet I don't hear any of the same kooks calling Jimmy Carter a "shill" to the oil companies.

BUT here's the REAL kicker: the US federal government ALONE funneled over $1.6 BILLION JUST LAST YEAR to various global warming scarmongerers. That is ***100 times*** what ExxonMobile spent over an 8 year period.

So tell me, based upon the monetary payoffs, who is the "shill" to whom again?

OhioGuy
I'm putting in my bid for Branson's prize today.

I'm going to use a small, naturally occuring, heat source, run water across it, then pass this water through another heat exchanger. This heat exchanger will also use naturally occuring water, which it will turn to steam. The steam will then be cooled using large towers, which will in turn release additional steam into the air. The carbon molecules in the air will then cling to the steam, and fall to the earth, naturally.

The excess steam can even be used to drive turbines to provide power, or something.

I'm going to call it a Nuclear Power Plant.

OhioGuy
Hey, don't tell them my idea before I do!!


Critical Bill
My blog? Well, unlike some, I figured I would wait until I had something important to say before posting to it.

Once I decided I really didn't need to say anything that badly, I never bothered to write anything. I suppose I could get it removed, but it never bothered me. (And I don't see why it bothers you, but then again a lot of what you say puzzles me.)

Of course, once again you are reduced to ad hominem attacks when faced with facts.

Milloy is funded by bad companies, I have an empty blog... What does any of that prove?

RE: Kimberly
"The only naysayers of global warming of note are in the employ of oil companies."

Huh. I guess then that since ExxonMobile is a major funder of Habitat For Humanity, that would make Jimmy Carter a "shill" for the oil companies, I guess. I bet that's news to him.

Misnomer
I doubt that there are many people who will stand up and outright deny global warming. It is a scientific fact that the earth has seen an increase in temperatures. So in truth, there are few "global warming deniers." What we rational people deny is HUMAN INVOLVEMENT!

Faith or Science
It seems to me that people who are convinced that Global Warming is happening should be able to explain the science behind it. Next time you run into one of these nuts ask some really basic questions about how global warming works and they won't be able to answer them...

What is the margin of error when the temperature of the earth is measured? (between +/- (.6-.8) degrees celsius- the IPCC3 quantifies the increase global increase in temperature as 0.6 ± 0.2 °C - within the margin of error!)

What is the primary cause of the "greenhouse" effect? (Water, both as water droplets (clouds) and water vapor account for around 90-95% of the effect which keeps our planet warm enough for us to live on)

What percentage of Earth's atmosphere is CO2? (0.038% up from 0.028% pre industrial revolution - thats right, its still a trace gas)

Is the heat absorbtion of CO2 logrithmic or linear? (logrithmic - it can only absorb so much heat and will become saturated)

Is CO2 good for the biosphere? (Yes, plants love the stuff- many growers pump CO2 into thier greenhouses. More and healtier plants means less CO2 and more O2.

Are consumer vehicles the largest source of human made CO2? (NO, Glass, Steel, electricty production and heating oil all create greater emissions

All of the models predicting rapid climate change rely on an ASSUMPTION that small changes in CO2 bring about small changes in temperature which in turn create large changes in Water Vapor WITHOUT modeling for negative feedback effects like the biosphere (imagine an algae bloom in the ocean caused by higher temperatures...)

also see

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

Where you can see that Water Vapor is being ommited in many of these estimates. Humans may cause the vast majority of planetary warming by CO2- problem is, CO2 just isn't as important as water. This is also the reason a single erupting volcano can have such an effect on global temperatures - the main gases a volcano puts out are Water Vapor and C02- but it is the water vapor that has the LARGER effect.

If global warming is occuring and is caused by humans, deforestation is the more likely culprate. Destruction of the rain forests frees a lot of trapped water to go into the oceans and elsewhere, and reduces the effectiveness of the C02 sink those plants provide. The fact that Liberals Harp on C02 simply proves that they have a far greater interest in telling others how to live than in actually finding out what is happening

Critical Bill
You come to America's Town Hall and tell us what you think America should do, why don't you help us understand what you thinking has done to England so we can avoid the awful MISTAKES?

Tell us about your new law for driving without a seatbelt or talking on the cell phone.

Tell us about how anti-gun laws in England have caused violent crime to escalate beyond control of Law Enforcement.

Tell us WHY you do not have a site like this in England.

There is much you could help us to avoid.

RedHead
BRILLIANT!!

That will even work when we shift back to the Global Cooling (ICE AGE) Hysteria you can say the water molecules that rise into the air (humidity) is great in creating a greenhouse affect.

RE: PokerGuy
Ouch, I bet that hurt the global warming scarmongerers. They can't use their "But...but...ExxonMobile gave them $5 for that so it doesn't mean anything!" garbage since they all worked pro bono, huh? Hey, Kimmy, how ya gonna discount THAT?

By the way, since the global warming scaremongerers are being paid $1.6 BILLION per year by the US government alone, doesn't that make their science even LESS credible than the so-called "shills" to the oil companies?

Mtn Rose's article
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm

Mtn Rose: thanks for the article. I liked this quote from whats his name:

"It's clear that the poorer the society is, the more brutally it behaves with respect to Nature, and vice versa."

This is very true - the Communists in Russia were among the worst polluters and carefree stewards of the planet in recent generations.

Another correlation that I find interesting is that as our society becomes more affluent and environmentally aware, and as our efforts at preservation and conservation accelerate the situation, according to the enviro-ideologues, the situation worsens.

A point I would like to make is that enviro-ideologues jump all over "global warming deniers" for not believing circumstantial evidence, but these same people deny or are completely ignorant of the economic consequences of Kyoto for both the industrialized and third world, that is, if Kyoto is actually followed to the letter by participant states.

I don't disbelieve in a phenomenon of global warming, just like I don't disbelieve in a phenomenon of evolution, but I find the hysteria concerning the causes unfounded.

Myopine
Sadly for you my days in the UK may be numbered - was in sorting out my documentation for a green card this morning. Hope no-one at the embassy reads townhall ha ha ha

Global Warming? SURE!
I have my own theory on that subject.
Just a little part?
You wonder why Earth grows warmer and cooler?
It is as normal as the four seasons and is caused almost exactly the same way.
Adjust your mind to think about small matter. What is an atom? Particles of energy,(EMF), in elliptical orbit? What maintains that orbit? It does not conform to Orbital Theory.
Electrical energy,(EMF), generates flux bands. Flux bands repel and attract.
When flux bands collide they induce rotation and generate energy to strengthen themselves and accelerate rotation until core resistance governs acceleration.
Now expand thought to larger flux patterns of planets. notice the same attraction and repulsion motivates the same pattern of rotation in elliptical orbit? You are aware of how the Earth's elliptical orbit causes the four seasons. Now look at the big picture. All we can see of our Universe is a large flat arc. Bands like the rings of Saturn would be more typical of EMF but we can't see far enough to know if the arc is part of a band. We can't even be sure there are no other bands. We have no reference point to determine whether or not the band is rotating in elliptical orbit. Orbiting what? Some giant source of energy,(EMF), so intense it generates matter? Would our Solar system tend to warm and cool while slowly riding an elliptical orbit around such a power source?
(EMF)? ElectroMotive Force is the basic form of energy. It has many other forms. The light entering your eyes as you read this is a form of EMF. EMF transmits the images to your brain and translates them into words. Powered by EMF your brain sends another small charge of EMF to your hand to operate that mouse. The sounds you hear are EMF and even the vibrations passing through the Earth. All matter, sound, light, motion and existenceis EMF.
Gravity? The attraction of a smaller mass to a larger mass? Like scraps of styrofoam or plastic attracted to your hand or clothing clinging to your body? Could gravity simply be another form of EMF? EMF is powerful enough to crush an entire solar system into a tiny lump the size of a basketball yet gentile enought to control the flight of an insect. Make you wonder what would happen if that giant source of power was to just stop radiating flux bands? Would atoms just cease to exist?
Have you been amused?

jcthomasva - regarding the Soviets
I just wonder if half of "Global Warming" can be attributed to Chernobyl,and the other half to Mount St. Helens?

After all, we are talking about ONE WOPPING DEGREE IN A HUNDRED YEARS!

All we need to do now is convince the Lefties to shut their yaps and stop adding to the hot air!

where is sun god
Tywog and Mugmug build home on glacial drift in land now called Indiana.Wind god mad today,much anger ,as snow piling up against tree house.

Tree god throw himself on power lines,now Tywog and Mugmug must burn tree god in sacrafice.Cook animal flesh to survive.

Tywog hope smoke from sacraficial burning make sun god mad.Tywog and Mugmug cold,need moon god to stop jealous game of making cold ,when warm is good.

Must go now,Tywog need help splitting wood for raosting pig.

Critical Bill
You think it is drastic when I say that the proponets of Global Warming hysteria are trying to bring down society? I say thier actions, retoric, distortions, and lies are drastic and thus the label fits. We ALL know Climate change is normal so why do they push the lie? What is there to gain? The fact that those Global Warming nuts continue to push the lie shows that their intentions are not sincere nor are they honorable.

As I said before, it is a tool being used by the anti capitalists to try and bring down society and take control. We all know man made Global Warming is a lie.

Not One Fact
Sowell did not present one fact refuting the scientific case against global warming. Not one. He merely rants.

The global cooling argument has been debunked many times, to anyone with any knowledge of this field whatsoever. You all need to educate yourselves some.

The bigger picture
This is an interesting site, with good links, that illustrates what is behind this whole "global warming" scare tactic.

http://www.bettyelders.com/backsteps-part7.htm

Bransons 25 mil Reward
I have the solution to Global Warming. It involves Al Gores mouth being fitted with a gag. Mr Branson can send me the check anytime.

$1.6B
beowulfe writes:
> By the way, since the global
> warming scaremongerers are being
> paid $1.6 BILLION per year by the
> US government alone, doesn't that
> make their science even LESS credible
> than the so-called "shills" to the
> oil companies?

This kind of thinking demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about how science, and scientists, work. Scientists become known and advance themselves by overturning existing theories, not by agreeing with them. It is their raison d'etre. This is what makes the global warming consensus so impressive--rarely do scientists agree about anything. Theories of global warming are now as established as theories about quarks, black holes, gene replication, or other similar ideas.

Re: global warming deniers

professor truth writes:

> Go to this website, so that educated scientists don't
> see you as the ignoramuses that you apparently are
> proud to be.

That global warming has become a matter of quasi-religious
faith among the Left is underscored by the way the idea's
proponents are often so nasty and insulting to anyone who
dares to question it. It's the sort of reaction I'd expect
from a religious person upon being told that, say, keeping
Kosher is silly, lighting all those candles is meaningless
and paganistic, and you people don't really believe that
silliness about the 72 virgins in Paradise, do you?

Your use of the term "deniers," with its obvious equation
of global warming skeptics to Holocaust deniers, is as
telling as it it preposterous. You're trying to bludgeon
your opponents into submission by insinuating that they're
pariahs who occupy a lower moral plane that you and your
fellow "true believers" do.

I have no idea whether or not you're a real professor, but
if you are, you should be ashamed of yourself. A professor's
mission is to educate, not to belittle people or to try to
intimidate them into intellectual conformity.

Come to think of it, you should be ashamed of yourself for
using that sort of approach even if you _aren't_ a professor.


-CB-


Hey randygregg
Doctor Sowell's article is about the political aspect of this argument and how one side in particular tries to silence debate. 2 words for ya "Reading comprehension".

You did not provide any facts proving global warning in your post. OH WAIT "reading comprehension".

"All scientists" agree? Hardly
liberal"good"man wrote: "Now, among the hundreds of climate scientists studying global warming you can count those against on the fingers of one hand. This column named all three of them."

In your liberal-brain-addled dreams. I can point you to web sites where, in one instance, dozens of scientists have signed a petition stating their general opposition to the claims of the Kyoto lemmings; and in another instance, where 20,000 scientists signed a petition declaring that Kyoto was a mistake based on bad science. I can point you to half a dozen web sites where peer-reviewed scientists regularly post articles disputing the HCCC (human-caused climate change) stampede, and even to a rebuttal of Dr. Oreskes' fatuous "study" claiming that 90% of all climate change articles favor the HCCC position (it's more like 30%, when done objectively.) Here's that link, for those of you who haven't read it; it's VERY instructive about the topic. http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/05/oreskes-study-errata.html (Note that it's on a blog site, because Science Mag did not permit the ordinary peer-review process, so biased have they become; note that the rebuttal they refused to publish was written by one of Science Mag's own peer-review panel members.)

The most important line in Sowell's article is the first one, that points out the left's near-ubiquitous tactic: "The political left's favorite argument is that there is no argument." When they're trying their damnedest to make you believe nobody disagrees, you can hard-target-guarantee that they're lying. They do it all the time.

GLOBAL WARMING IN KANSAS
We just had 3 inches of global warming dumped on my house last night. It was coming down pretty hard early this morning and the roads hadn't been plowed yet. We expect high winds today to create large drifts of global warming, especially in the rural areas. Tomorrow, the global-warming induced high will be below 20 (for the day time high).

Global warming? I wish!

randygregg and his dreams
Note the careful attempt at sounding scientific: "This is what makes the global warming consensus so impressive--rarely do scientists agree about anything. Theories of global warming are now as established as theories about quarks, black holes, gene replication, or other similar ideas."

This paragraph is pure hocum. I'll bet my next paycheck that randygregg doesn't even read peer-reviews scientific journals, and has not the slightest notion what actual climate scientists are saying, apart from the occasional browse of sites he already knows are devoted to his preconceived point of view.

I posted a link to Prof Peiser's rebuttal of Dr. Oreskes' biased survey of climate change articles over the last 15 years. Go read it, and then come and tell me how impressive the confluence of opinion has been on this topic.

Here it is again: http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/05/oreskes-study-errata.html

What kills me about Climate Change
If you follow the various links from posters to all the various articles, you will see a number of differing charts that are in current use in the debate on global warming. Some of the charts support a "Medieval Warming Period", and some do not. Some show the planet drastically warming in the last 100 years unlike any other point in history, and some show the last century to be well within normal bounds.

But the one thing that ALL of these charts have is a scale recording how much "climate change" has taken place. In the middle of the graph is a line that indicates 0 degrees of "change". Then, the scale of how much "change" we have is to be determined in comparison from that zero-degree baseline. My question is - how does anyone know where the zero-line ought to be? If we're going to spend countless billions to appease Al Gore, then what is the "correct" global climate we should try to attain?

I've never heard any global warming believers debate the positive side of global warming", or the detriments to the cooling that their policies are intended to produce. If we undergo warming, we will lose some currently useful land along our lower-lying and coastal areas as some ice melts. But then, we will gain the use of some lands that are currently under ice. If things cool down, we might gain a bit of coastline as more water is stored in ice at our globe's extremities, but the increased cold will cause some land to be increasingly difficult to inhabit and cultivate. We would expect to find an optimum climate. Where is that optimum climate? And how do you know?

Before we take any of the proposed steps, we should at least have a target climate in mind, and some objective means of determining at what point we've gone too far. If nobody's doing that, they why should I care at all about the issue, whether it's happening or not?

Critical Bill

Critical Bill writes:

> Global warming is real, even though the causes of it
> are debateable and remain thoeries, just as evolution
> remains a theory.


Your words give me reason to suspect that like a lot of
Christians, you misunderstand the meaning of the word
"theory." It has a slightly different meaning in a
scientific context than it does in casual conversation.

To a layman, a theory is a plausible but unproven idea:
"My theory is that lighter traffic during rush hour on
Mondays is the result of more people calling in sick
than on other weekdays, since nobody likes to go to
work on a Monday."

To a scientist, however, a theory isn't an unproven idea;
that's known as a _hypothesis_. Rather, a theory is an
idea that _is_ proven, to the degree possible with cu-
rent knowledge, technology, etc. Therefore, saying that
evolution is a theory isn't a reason to suspend judgment
on it; quite the opposite.



-CB-