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Tuesday, January 23, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The "Greed" Fallacy
by Thomas Sowell
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In an era when our media and even our education system exalt emotions, while ignoring facts and logic, perhaps we should not be surprised that so many people explain economics by "greed."

Today there are adults -- including educated adults -- who explain multimillion-dollar corporate executives' salaries as being due to "greed."

Think about it: I could become so greedy that I wanted a fortune twice the size of Bill Gates' -- but this greed would not increase my income by one cent.

If you want to explain why some people have astronomical incomes, it cannot be simply because of their own desires -- whether "greedy" or not -- but because of what other people are willing to pay them.

The real question, then, is: Why do other people choose to pay corporate executives so much?

One popular explanation is that executive salaries are set by boards of directors who are spending the stockholders' money and do not care that they are overpaying a CEO, who may be the one responsible for putting them on the board of directors in the first place.

It makes a neat picture and may even be true in some cases. What deals a body blow to this theory, however, is that CEO compensation is even higher in corporations owned by a few giant investment firms, as distinguished from corporations owned by thousands of individual stockholders.

In other words, it is precisely where people are spending their own money and have financial expertise that they bid highest for CEOs. It is precisely where people most fully understand the difference that the right CEO can make in a corporation's profitability that they are willing to bid what it takes to get the executive they want.

If people who are capable of being outstanding executives were a dime a dozen, nobody would pay eleven cents a dozen for them.

Many observers who say that they cannot understand how anyone can be worth $100 million a year do not realize that it is not necessary that they understand it, since it is not their money.

All of us have thousands of things happening around us that we do not understand. We use computers all the time but most of us could not build a computer if our life depended on it -- and those few individuals who could probably couldn't grow orchids or train horses.

In short, we all have grossly inadequate knowledge in other people's specialties.

The idea that everything must "justify itself before the bar of reason" goes back at least as far as the 18th century. But that just makes it a candidate for the longest-running fallacy in the world.

Given the high degree of specialization in a modern economy, demanding that everything "justify itself before the bar of reason" means demanding that people who know what they are doing must be subject to the veto of people who don't have a clue about the decisions that they are second-guessing.

It means demanding that ignorance override knowledge.

The ignorant are not just some separate group of people. As Will Rogers said, everybody is ignorant, but just about different things.

Should computer experts tell brain surgeons how to do their job? Or horse trainers tell either of them what to do?

One of the reasons why central planning sounds so good, but has failed so badly that even socialist and communist governments finally abandoned the idea by the end of the 20th century, is that nobody knows enough to second guess everybody else.

Every time oil prices shoot up, there are cries of "greed" and demands by politicians for an investigation of collusion by Big Oil. There have been more than a dozen investigations of oil companies over the years, and none of them has turned up the collusion that is supposed to be responsible for high gas prices.

Now that oil prices have dropped big time, does that mean that oil companies have lost their "greed"? Or could it all be supply and demand -- a cause and effect explanation that seems to be harder for some people to understand than emotions like "greed"?

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Gasoline Prices
Another great article to e-mail to friends and relations.

I predict somebody is going to point out that, with the price of oil coming down, why isn't the price of gasoline coming down? ""AH HAH! IT'S THOSE GREEDY BASTARDS AGAIN! AH HAH AH HAH AH HAH!!""

So I just wanted to point out that the price of crude is only ONE part of the equation that makes the price of gasoline. Another very important part, maybe even more important, is the DEMAND for gasoline.

Crude could be given away for free. If the demand for gasoline and other products made from crude continue to rise, the price for those things will also rise.

If we want the price of gasoline to come down, we need to STOP DRIVING SO MUCH!

If only "The" W was as concise
Before I gave up my Libertarian roots and went republican,I always thought,"If only the people could hear common sense like that which flows from the mind of Walter Williams,then Libertarians would soon be a huge political factor to be dealt with by the tired and lame old donkies and pachyderms."

Mr. Williams still makes me believe, that if a President would talk so plainly,that many Americans would see the light.

Do you remember the impact that Reagans' speech at the 1960 GOP convention had on peoples' perspectives ?

It could happen again.It won't.But it could.

Run Walter run!!!

Oops
Ditto the above to Thomas Sowell as well.
My fault for mixing up two of my favorite great minds.My appolgies Mr. Sowell,everyone knows that you are not interchangeable with anyone.
Man,I need to get some shuteye.

Greed:1 Reason:0
Ah yes, I can see the negotiations in progress:

"Mr Nardelli, how about $100M per year?"

"No, I couldn't, that would be greedy, 80 would be more than adequate..."

"Come on now - it's what the market demands!"

"Oh OK then - we don't want to upset the market, do we?..."


Sowell's sophistry does nothing for me. Any reasonable man can judge for himself when a pig becomes a hog. These superstar CEOs are definitely in hog heaven.

It takes the breath away, that someone would dismiss reason while justifying the absurd workings of (allegedly free) market forces, against the average man's innate sense of decency.

thickasabrick
You've got to be kidding, right?

Please enlighten us... how much money should a CEO make? Where do YOU draw the line between "fair" and "greed"? What is that magic number that transforms the pig to a hog? And how many people will agree with YOUR definition of "fair"? Define the "average man's innate sense of decency" in dollars and cents.

Or are you falling into the category of "ignorant" that Dr. Sowell writes of... letting how you "feel" trump what is definable?


And Beckham?
Some towering idiot or pyramid of idiots is willing to pay David Beckham a quarter of a million over 5 years to promote a sport in America that a survey of Americans would agree is for sissies (erroneously in my opinion, but we're not talking about me). Yet put any of them out there to do what Beckham does and they'd fail miserably. Mats Sundin, the aging captain of the Maple Leafs (who are holding a reunion of their last Stanley Cup team this year because most of them are in their 80s and dying off quicker than veterans of World War II) makes $12,000 per minute, judged by the time he actually spends on the ice.

Speaking for myself personally, it has been my experience over a lifetime that people I work for think I am overpaid because they never see me working nights and weekends like other secretaries do -- therefore I "don't do anything to earn that ridiculous sslary". Then when I move on they find they have to hire two people to replace me. Not only that, but not a single one of them can do the job I do, even if they do work nights and weekends.

In short, people pay well for expertise, and they have to outbid others for that expertise -- because contrary to what the guy sitting in the stands with a hot dog and a beer, booing his little heart out, may think, just because it looks easy to him doesn't mean he could do it. And in my experience it is virtually unknown for people to protest to anybody for any job that they are overpaid. Personally I think garbageman is not a skilled trade and unionized drivers making $30 per hour plus benefits are seriously overpaid. But somebody's got to do it and I'm not volunteering.

Three little words...
...Greed is good.

A Revealing Monicker

Thickasabrick's name betrays his sophistocation.

"The Poor" are the greediest of all.
Prof Sowell:



I believe that you have written about "The Poor" being among the world's most "greedy".


This fits in with today' column, which states the concept of "corporate greed" is based on ignorance.

"The Poor" are "greedy" when they not only request, but DEMAND that others work to fill their needs, but don't have a clue how or why this is true.

They are blissful in their ignorance - which is why they are "The Poor".

Thickasabrick
I once made $16 an hour, and found out that a co-worker I had trained and provided with tools to get his work done was making $15.75. I hit the roof!
I realized in short order that I was acting like an idiot, and also selling my services short. I subsequently got a job somewhere else for $20 an hour, turned down another job for $23, and am now back at my old place for $21. Money alone didn't motivate my decisions to move away and come back, but I'd probabably making $19 right now if I hadn't done so. Market forces at work! I don't care that my boss makes twice as much as I do, and I certainly could care less about some CEO in New York.

The numbers don't lie
When the CEO of ExxonMobil cashed out for $400 million a while back, people screamed and yelled about the price of his buyout. With high gas prices, they acted as if he was personally responsible for the increase in gas prices at the time. In fact, if you look at the numbers, his buyout was small. In fact, if you assume that every single penny of his money was paid in the same year (which it was not,) it would have made a one-time increase in the price of gasoline of 0.04.

That's hardly a huge number.

The United States of .. Consistency?
What factors are responsible for the success of America? Remember, the emergence of America as a powerhouse began in the mid/late 1800s and continues to this day.

If (as many conservatives do), we find the answer to the above ONLY in the word "Religion", we are deluding ourselves.

After all, Religion was quite a dominant factor in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world. Why didn't their success mirror ours?

That is because America was built on the premise that the individual is free and the Govt is bound.

For the first time in human history, here was a system that was aligned perfectly with the motivations of real humans. Such a system doesn't require human sacrifice. It's success also doesn't rely on humans attaining some impossible (and actually immoral) altruistic standard.

The right to "Pursue Happiness", when applied consistently to humans, is the philosophical basis for the economic system that goes by the name of Capitalism.

On the non-economic front, our system consistently gives us individual freedom. Remember that our system simultaneously gives us the Freedom of Religion AND Freedom from Religion!

Many of our laws derived from Judeo-Christian principles - but does that make America a Christian country? If that were true, then we are conveniently forgetting that similar principles also exist in other religions - some of which are also prevalent in 'failed' states. And, yes, there are quite a few fervently Christian countries that fall in the category of 'failed' states.

As an example, consider the Christian countries in Europe that our Founding Fathers fled.

A mathematician could write that equation as:

Christianity + Feudal System = Failure
That should be enough to convince us that it is not axiomatic that Christian countries are automatically successful.

So, what's the point in all this?

Let's give thanks to the 'good' laws that our Founding Fathers derived from Religion. But lets not forget the uniquely CONSISTENT quality of our ideology that gave (and continues to give) us immeasurable economic and social benefits.

For further proof, the antithesis of Capitalism - i.e. Communism/Socialism is inconsistent with the human desire to work towards one's self-interest. If only scientists were able to excise that 'self-interest-gene' from humans, well then ..

As it is in science and mathematics, so is it in ideology. Consistency rules! Hey, that would make for a nice bumper sticker ..

Right on --
This guy is a national treasure. Ayn Rand's definition works well in almost all occasions -- greed is the desire for unearned wealth (or any other good). One thing is worth noticing though, and it is depressing. Obviously, less and less people consider partaking in free transactions in the marketplace to be "earning" one's income. It's a trend that is probably irreversible. And of course you have "presidents" like Bush doing everything he can do to make it harder to conduct business without big brother looking over one's shoulder. So is it any surprise? I mean even a "Republican" president acts like a socialist. Can you really blame the public? Especially the children who saw his father do the same? Where else are they going to learn? Some have bright parents, but . . . well, that is for another column.


Greed
Market factors don't explain why American CEOs are by a factor of many times the highest paid in the industrial world. An explanation more akin to why hemlines or hair styles change would be closer to the truth. Corporate bureaucrats who worked their way up the hierarchy in Pfizer or Exxon are recruiting friendly boards of directors and chummy compensation committees and paying themselves as if they were a Henry Ford or Bill Gates, people who actually invented or started s successful company. The compensation committees hire friendly consultants who provide helpful "comparable" data to justify the outrageous compensation, even in cases like Pfizer where the CEO ran the company into the ground. In too many cases, not satisfied with their compensation, they award themselves wads of stock options which they backdate or re-price. These options ,in theory are supposed to make the interest of the CEO synonymous with that of the stockholders. But in practice they incentivize the CEOs to cook the books and backdate the options. What has been the result? The gap between ordinary workers and CEOs, as many have pointed out, has gone from 50 to one to more than 400 to one in recent years.

Why is this a problem? It's a problem because the growing gap between rich and poor and between the rich and the middle class is causing people to lose faith in our free enterprise system. It's having a de-destabilizing effect on American free enterprise and democracy.

True Greed - Liberals
Liberals give less than conservatives. Considerably less.

Non christians give less than christians. Considerably less.

The northeast give less than the other geographic areas of the U.S. Considerably less.

Liberals are very greedy. Considerably so.

Ask any waitress or service employee which geographic area treats them like second class citizens the most.

But I must admit, that the northeast has the largest and faniciest charity balls.

Barney Frank
I would suggest that in light of Barney having said that he wants some source other than the board of directors to authorize top executive salaries and severance benefits that Dr. Sowell send a copy of this piece to Barney Boy. Only make the words smaller so he can understand it.


Voice of Reason
Generally you make a good point concerning the impossibility of Communism and Socialism. And the idea of personal freedom being the biggest catalyst for success is also correct. Where your logic is flawed is where you put forth the idea that "Christianity + Feudal System = Failure" apparently in an attempt to attribute the failure of Europe (which was not economically failing in the 17th and 18th centuries, mind you) in part to Christianity. More correctly your statement should read "Anything + Feudal System = Failure". Christianity hasn't caused the failure of anything in the past, and it's unlikely to in the future. (Consider that the Feudal System fell out of favor by the end of the Renaissance.)

I know of no one who attributes the success of the United States solely to Christianity. Personally (being very much to the Right and very devoutly Christian (Catholic, to be specific)) I have always attributed our success to our individualistic nature and the "cowboyism" that the Leftist Elite so loathe. It's also worth noting that Europe didn't begin to fail until the "Age of Reason" had sucked out much of the religious life on that continent, especially in France. During the heyday of Europe, from the Renaissance through the early 1800's, religion was still king, for the most part. Sometimes almost litterally.

By the way, you cannot have both Freedom of religion AND Freedom from it. You are free to choose how and if you worship, that is true. And that freedom (along with the others we hold dear) IS what makes us a great nation. But Freedom FROM Religion is what the Atheist Communists wanted. They wanted their people to be totally free from any corruption of the Communist Ideals that would be offered by "the opiate of the masses." Freedom FROM Religion means not having to endure the existence of it. If you live here, you don't have to worship in any particular way, but you do have to accept that nearly everyone worships in some way.

Just as it is foolish to think that Religion is the only thing that made us successful, it is equally foolish to think that Religion has played no part whatsoever.

Free Agency
CEO's are the corporate equivalent of free agents in sports. The Beckham reference by AudiR10 is instructive in that Beckham, like any free agent was offered a contract which has a monetary value based on what the prospective employer believed they could improve the finances of their team by adding him to it.
Emotions such as greed are found only in animate beings. Since corporations are abstract legal organizations, the phrase "corporate greed" can only be regarded as totally illogical.

Greedy liberals
On one hand liberals accuse CEOs of raping the world, yet on the other hand they vote to confiscate their fellow citizens' money to build facilities in which the entertainment industry can thrive, with overpaid entertainers providing a luxury (vs a necessity). One only need look at the contracts (and their agents) of the entertainers performing in the NFL to understand true greed. Were those of weak minds (requiring entertainers to mask their insecurities) to hold the entertainment industry to the same level that they hold the oil industries or the health-care industries, it would indeed collapse.

Greed is greed
Love ya Dr. Sowell, but however much I enjoyed your lecture on corporate leadership and salaries, I still believe greed and self interest play a much larger part in determining those outrageous incomes.

If talent and hard work were the only issues I might agree with you. If talent and hard work were the only factors involved in success than businesses run by talented and hard working folks would always be successful. Many outside factors are involved in making business successful, and these are often outside the control of the folks in charge. Many times the skilled and talented people don't make it to the top. Instead, leaders are chosen or elected on the basis of silly reasons like friendship or internal politics.

Another interesting process is that of corporate leadership lining their silk lined pockets while the business sinks into bankruptcy, i.e., K-Mart Corporation, Troy, Michigan.

I throughly enjoyed your lecture but business does not exist entirely within the framework of economic theory, particularly corporate business. This lavish self rewarding is nothing more then Greed, and has its own abnormal place within economic theory.

Jesus disagrees
It is amazing to me to find yet another "supply and demand" argument in regard to the salaries that people earn. Salaries are set by people with power, not by people without power. Just as a real estate broker encourages property inflation, so their commission will be bigger, so too do CEO's think they "deserve" more. The "supply and demand" equation only fits with the paradigm of the prostitute and the pi_mp and the corrupt cop. If the pi_mp (the CEO) can make more money off the prostitutes (the workers) then the stockholders (the cops who look away) can get a bigger kickback.

It is still as Jesus said it was: THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. While the CEO did not create this system, he is just as much a participant to greed as the union organizer of the laborer who wants a raise. The entire society is driven by greed.

You are an apologist for the greediest, not an economic analyst. If you were more fair-minded and open-minded, then you would see how greed has a major influence on our society. The more that wealth concentrates (because both people and institutions are greedy) the more extreme our problems become. Of course, the issues of wealth in organization is the bigger problem. It is their excessiveness that makes the high payments to CEO's possible.

We still live in a slave system, where one man's time is worth more than another man's time. While it is no longer a racial divide, there is still a divide between slaves and masters.

Just as the master lived large on the plantation, and the pi_mp in the inner city among poverty, so too do the modern CEO's, bankers, and other manipulators of the "value" of goods. (As a business owner, that would include me as well.)

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Greed? or a needed skill
Us Dr. Sowell's logic, the mechanic who works on Mr. CEO's Rolls should be getting about a million a year. After all, a good car mechanic is hard to find and an excellent one who knows the insides and out of a Rolls is golden. I'm not saying that the contract to maintain the Rolls is worth a million. I'm saying the grease monkey who actually fixes it is worth that money.

And what Dr. Sowell doesn't address is why these CEOs, once they've run a company into the ground, quartered the stock price and generally hav e left wreckage in their 100 million dollar a year wake are worth that much to fire! Or even to retire! My goodness. You give me $100 mill per for 10 years, I'd probably sock away enough that I could live pretty comfortably for about three or four years more if you turned off the spigot.

Is there a bidding war for these guys? While we are not privy to what goes on in the board rooms, is there really the kind of CEO free-agency we see in baseball? Top star CEOs being courted by several corporations simultaneously (not to mention his now current but expiring contract holder) driving up the money? (Look, Bob, CorpA is offering $110M per plus a yacht, and a Rolls, but CorpB will give you $100M and all of Orlando. Of Course CorpC will give you and a residence in Delaware, where they don't have any sales tax, if you stay.)

greed is not good
Greed is when we get so carried away with our own desires that we no longer care about anyone or anything else in the world. Greed is desire run amok. Greed is what happens when the CEO hires people, with a wink and a nod, to the board of directors who happen to be CEO's of other corporations. Greed is what happens when oil companies convince the CIA to overthrow a popularly elected leader of another country there by igniting decades of hatred between the countries. Greed is military contractors who ACHE to go to war so they can make more money. Greed is what happens when a man in his fifties decides to leave his wife and chilren for a younger prettier wife.

Greed is not good!

Phylo out.

Liberals hate free markets
exactly becuse they are FAIR in assigning value. The free market constantly and immediately reflects the votes (dollars as ballots) of ALL participants, not those of the 'fairness police'.

What irks liberals is that their voices get no preferential treatment in free markets, regardless of their 'brilliance'.

Another great article!
Dr. Sowell,

Please run for President, the current crop seem to be all losers or at best, anti-American, socialist nitwits.

second guessing
Dr. Sowell:

I have been thinking a good deal lately about the secondary topic of your recent column, "people who know what they are doing must be subject to the veto of people who don't have a clue about the decisions that they are second-guessing." This morning's paper informs, e.g., that 66% of the American people think we are on the wrong track in Iraq. Of course, about that percentage think that terrorists will leave us alone if we leave them alone.

The Founders, especially John Adams were very suspicious of democracy--real democracy--as a form of government, largely for this very reason. With everyone weighing in on everything, and politicians having re-election as their holy grail, how we ever get away from government by plebiscite? I respect W mainly because he does not make decisions based on the latest poll numbers. Is he the last President who will behave this way?

Greed
is spending 40 percent of your welfare check on lottery tickets in an effort to get rich quick.

Jesus disagrees
Steve says we still live in a slave system. In a system of slavery, the slave has no options- he does the will of the master. Liberals confuse the lack of balls to make a move with having no options. We can all quit our jobs and move on to another, if only we have the courage.

I have no sympathy for those who cry about the gap between the rich and the poor. As Walter Williams has said, the reason that rich folks are rich is that they do things that make them rich. And poor people just keep on doing things that keep them poor. Besides, we don't really have any truly poor in this country. I was raised in southern Illinois, home of "King Coal". We had real por folks back then, living in tarpaper shacks, kids with holes in their shoes (if they were lucky to have shoes), etc. Now the "poor" wear Air Jordans and designer jeans. I'm tired of hearing about the "poor". Get off your dead a** and get an education, stay out of trouble with the law, avoid drugs, and, above all, quit squirting out illegitimate babies for me to feed!

Kraut - words can't get small enough
Leftists throw around five letter words, like greed, not because they understand the definition, but for it's ability to press ignorant people's envy button.

Big words like economics, capitalism, or socialism hit's their snooze button.

I got into an argument with a dummy on a loading dock last week over oil company profits and their CEO's compensation packages. He was probably a decent guy, yet he could not understand that simple supply and demand or existing contracts dictate these packages. He admitted that it he didn't own stock in these companies and it wasn't his money, but still correlated incorrectly the price he pays at the pump with what he sees as a greedy and unfair system. Another simpleton who believes when someone gets rich, he gets poorer.

Being raised in the 50's and 60's with a solid work ethic, I'm usually able to pick and chose from many job offers. Employers call me, not the other way around, because they know from my work history that my job performance will be superior to 99% of the other schlubs coming through their door, especially younger people, who I can consistently outwork, outwit and end up supervising. It's gratifying when a few are able to learn from me, as I'm getting to be an old bird and won't be doing this forever.

I quit a job 10 years ago because the owner of the company cut my wages after he saw how much I cost him when he worked me 90+ hours a week. I told him he'd have to hire 4 people to do the jobs I was doing for the company. I was wrong - he ended up hiring 1 part-time and 4 full-time employees to accomplish the same work. Several years later, he offered me a high managerial position, but the salary wasn't adequate for the job I'd be doing.

As Dr. Sowell so simply explains this concept; my former employer had a demand for my supply of labor, but wasn't willing to compete for it with adequate compensation.

Wait, that's too many big words for libs. Screw it! I have to get ready for work and don't have the time to put it in 3rd grade language.

A common mistake
Many above seem to be complaining that CEO's get high pay then do not perform up to that level. That is true, because we are fallible humans and are capable of mistakes about future situations.

The CEO is paid what the board anticipates he will produce, and, if they are right, then the market performed properly. If they are wrong, they lose money, while those who guessed correctly gain money, and, the market still works...

The market is not a perfect mechanism to allocate resources, but it does tend towards the optimal distribution and is the best mechanism available.

Afraid you have to wait for the next life if you are seeking perfection, here on earth we are left making do with "good enough".

Also, regarding the Rolls Royce mechanic comment above, he may not make a million, but he would be very well compensated. A friend did routine maintenance for high end sports cars and made more than many doctors we both knew, so the salary is not as low for the mechanic as your example suggests... In addition, no one owner had to pay his salary, as you seem to suggest, by servicing a number of owners he could charge each a small part of his salary and still make a fortune. That is yet again one of the wonders of the free market.

Free Market is the Answer
Steve, do you feel bad about how little you pay your employees? It sounds like you do.
Primus54 asks the correct questions. None of us knows what someone is worth. Not even Dr. Sowell. So let people freely decide what to pay, and what to accept for payment. Nobody holds a gun at your head and makes you work for them.
I have always wanted more money than I got paid, but then who does not. I am free to seek better employment elsewhere, and failing that, I can start my own business.
I am not arguing the system is perfect. I am arguing that it functions well. I would not pay a CEO more than 10 million for one year no matter what the job. Hell, HONDA pays its top 36 executives a combined total of 18 million. Honda is also run very well, and is very profitable. Nardelli was paid an amount that I would not have ever paid. But since it is not my money (I have no stock in Home Depot), what do I care?

Best argument for the free market
The best argument in favor of Dr. Sowell is that Kimberly opposes him.

Another debate on the evils of socialism
It seems that we debate this every other day, whether its talking about minimum wage, negotiated severance packages, or executive salaries. The socialist libtards will not be convinced that socialism does not work even after seeing literally a hundred years of failure. There is always some excuse; the beautiful philosophy was ruined by an evil dictator, the poor country had been exploited by evil capitalists and all the resources were gone, and on and on and on. Mr. Sowell’s economic books should be required reading in all high schools. His books on education would be actual course material in that other den of mediocrity, educational schools.

To all of you socialists and communists who I am sure will be jumping on this article with both feet, please go out and review the historical evidence for nations that have adopted heavily socialist policies.

CEO Fire bonus?
Out of all the jobs out there only sports stars (coaches too), movie stars, and CEO type people get a bonus if they are fired! I mean who else in this world gets a huge bonus if they get fired? Just a thought.

However none of that changes the free market. And if the free market dictates that those fired from those type of positions get a huge bonus... then I am ok with that.

I am wise enough to know that I am not wise at all.

To Kimberly
We the objectivists have consulted the Kwisatz Haderach and determined that you have become overcome by the latest crisis. Please go to the site of the attached link and review the actions needed to overcome this problem.

http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2007/01/foiled_again.html


Greedy professors
Hey Phylo, instead of making it seem as though it is the right that is greedy, let's look at some greedy leftist professors. Keep in mind that there's a jobs crisis in academia these days, so what are these professors doing about it?

Martha Nussbaum (U. of Chicago): She comes from a very wealthy family and doesn't need to be teaching. She could give up her job and let someone poorer take it.

Noam Chomsky: Chomsky could have retired years ago because he became famous enough to make a decent living by writing books and giving invited talks.

Kai Nielsen: He's a socialist professor in Canada who very greedily pumped out article after article (which he didn't need for his career) on the joys of socialism at a time when younger scholars needed to get published.

This list could include many more.

Kimberly, quit WISHING and BE Bill Gates
Or, apply for a CEO position. Surely you can do their jobs and produce as much wealth. If only they knew how to contact you.

Your dreams are like the 50mile/gallon carbeurator that BIG OIL has kept under wraps since the 60s(even thought the patent on this revolutionary device would have run out four decades ago). Is it unreasonable that with so much money at stake that someone would not make a fortune by exploiting either opportunity?

sawdust wrote
"As Walter Williams has said, the reason that rich folks are rich is that they do things that make them rich."

Yes, certain behavior make people rich. If they are greedy, they pursue wealth.
If they are kind, they help people.
If they seek power, they run for office, etc.

People are rich because they want to be rich, and they battle those who would like to take their wealth for themselves. Thus, unlike Mr. Sowell's argument, it is all about greed, and not about "supply and demand."

As the Williams quote affirms, "they do the things that make them rich." Where Mr. Sowell's analysis collapses is that he says (by inference) that this is the best of all possible worlds. His and your thinking is very much like the character Pangloss in Voltaire's Candide. "Whatever is, is best."

Many people here have brought up Liberals and said that they are just as bad. I agree. There are many Liberal CEO's, too. While this is a strawman argument, it does reveal that the thinking of both Liberals and Conservatives is woeful. The system doesn't work, yet all they seem to do is perpetually write essays assailing each other. (Mr. Sowell has made a career out of it.)

Greed is not the only reason why the system doesn't work (fear and pride play a major role,) but to deny the role of greed is silly. The first words out of a child's mouth is "more!" Look at Warren Buffet for example. He started trading in stocks when he was 9 years old. He was taught to be greedy by his parents. He became the second richest man in the world because he cannot control his greed, and he simply cannot imagine that he is part of the reason why there are poor people. So he gives is wealth to the world's richest man, so they can both pretend they are humanist liberals. What an intellectual farce.

We are a nation of Scrooges. How we vote is irrelevant. Even Nader's running mate was a venture capitalist. It is what we agree on that divides us, and what we agree on is that "greed is good." It isn't, nor will it ever be.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

tq
It's interesting to see you extrapolate conclusions by using the examples you've chosen.

OK: if said mechanic is the only mechanic capable of working on a Rolls Royce, he may well be paid a million dollars to do so. That said, would someone buy a Rolls Royce that can only be worked on by one mechanic? Probably would be common knowledge: "I say, old fellow, should you endeavor to purchase that wonderful auto, it must be pointed out that there is only one mechanic capable of working on it, and he is paid one million dollars per year."

And as far as executives that run companies into the ground: yes, it happens. Is that the exception or the rule? Heck of a way to present an argument.

Duh.

Thanks for proving Dr. Sowell's point.

sawdust also said
"I have no sympathy for those who cry about the gap between the rich and the poor"

That really sums up yours, Mr. Sowell's and Scrooges position best.

Jesus says to be kind to one another, help the poor, be righteous. You say, "screw them, and all who care about them."

If you are so proud of your ruthless thinking, then why do you hide in the math of capitalism to bolster your argument? Instead of saying it is supply and demand, or that the person deserves their rewards, why not just state the truth: "I am greedy, and want to be (or stay) wealthy. I have no need for mercy and nor shall I give it."

(Of course, it is delusional to think you can be a superman, disconnected from society, but if the mirror fits, look at it.)

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Greed
Talk about greed. How about public school teachers raping the taxpayers pockets while producing an inferior product.

Someone, Smith, Haslit, Friedman, said that in regard to the exchange of goods and services, no one is cheated when both sides agree on the price. The greedy are the people who want to be rich but don't have the knowledge or the skill to do so. Their greed is the dislike of others who have "made it".

re: liberals hate free markets
There is no such thing as a free market. The government creates the currency, and then demands it back in the form of taxes.

It also spends far more than what it has collected, thus forcing it to borrow. With all these conditions (and these conditions have been perpetual in all governments, not just American history) then there can be no such thing as a "free market." Because the government is in debt, and spending money, the easiest way to get rich/survive is to either work for or sell to the government, which just accelerates the problem.

A free market is more like what the Native Americans had before the Europeans arrived. Individuals could manufacture their own money (wampum) and there was trade of goods, but government and debt was significantly less, if it existed at all. They were a community first. Whereas we are an accounting ledger first. Huge difference. So stop beating the horse about "free markets.' It has been dead for at least 600 years, which was when the first corporate charter was issued. (ie a government issued monopoly) and that was only a response to a central banking system that was even then a dismal failure.

There is a reason why planes fly into banks, and it is not unrelated to this discussion.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Steve: free markets
So, Steve...

Where did you get your computer?

Socialism...
...DOESN'T WORK in real life. That was proven by the evil dictators in the Soviet Union and its satelites, and it is proven now in Europe and Canada where the economies are lagging well behind ours, and they can't figure out why.

Greed, generally speaking is bad. I think most peole can agree on that. In Catholicism (and other Christian religions, I believe), Greed is one of the 7 Deadly Sins. There is no denying that. And there are many unscrupulous people out there that cause harm to others to line their own pockets. Some (like Ken Lay) are caught and prosecuted, others are not. That is the way of things.

But to look at the few unscrupulous CEOs out there and to ascribe their motives to all of us that prefer capitalism is idiotic. People only work if there is an incentive (positive or negative) to work. Even volunteers have an incentive in that they enjoy providing service to the community. In a "free" socialist country you have inordinant numbers of people who decide the amount they will earn by working is not worth the amount of work they would have to put into it, especially since they can live off government handouts just fine. If there is no incentive to succeed, no one will. Human beings are generally lazy creatures and will usually (as all natural forces do) follow the path of least resistance so long as that path leads to their goal. If the goal is subsistance, the path of least resistance is welfare. If the goal is great material wealth, the path of least resistance is much more difficult. Either win the lottery (for which you have more chance of dying of AIDS while in a crashing airplane immediately after you (not the plane) have been struck by lighnting) or become a famous entertainer (slightly lower odds than the lottery) or work hard to achieve it. To me, the great wealth of Bill Gates isn't worth the hard work. And don't think that Corporate bigwigs didn't work their tails off to get where they are. Even the unscrupulous ones had to put in long hours devising their schemes so as not to be caught.

You are paid for what you produce. The value of your production is set by how much the company is willing to pay you. If you are a good worker with a rare skillset, you will be paid well. If you are a gas station attendent or a fast-food clerk, you probably aren't worth $7.25 an hour because the skillset needed is roughly a dime a dozen. The skillset needed to be a CEO isn't as common as some may think. Not just anyone can do it, as the biggest losers in the dot-com bubble found out. It takes managerial skills, political knowhow, a business sense, and the willingness to put in very long hours to be a successful CEO, or, at least a rich one.

Does that make them worth $100,000,000 a year? Apparently someone thinks so.

By the way, anyone out there know how a stock price goes up? It happens when people buy the stock. And why do people buy the stock? Because the company is making money. And if the company stops making money, or something bad happens (like a plane crash if you own stock in an airline or Boeing)? People sell the stock, making the prices go back down. So how does a company make more money? By selling more product. (Usually this is more successful than jacking up the prices. Otherwise gas prices would never go down.) You know, supply and demand actually does work from time to time.

Steve, I would be curious...
... to know what your definition of "free market" is, with respect to your assertion that it doesn't exist.

Steve
Based on what you've read into scriptures, you should be broke as you would have given all your "wealth" to those who have less than you.

Laughing while I type
Kimberly writes: What do you think of when you read about the CEO of Exxon getting hundreds of millions of dollars in a retirement package? Think about how the oil industry has made record profits these past few years at American's expense.
------------------------------------------------


Yet as a return on sales oil profits still suck. Want see who is really screwing the American people check out Microsoft, or the Social Security Trust Fund.

Nomination for best post
frankz writes: I believe that you have written about "The Poor" being among the world's most "greedy".

"The Poor" are "greedy" when they not only request, but DEMAND that others work to fill their needs, but don't have a clue how or why this is true.
------------------------------------------------


Great post.

Who will be the KING of whats fair
There always seems to be somebody who knows what is fair and what is not in these discussions. Who is greedy and who is not. Who should be the arbiter of fair, the grand decision maker? The Government or a Governmental Committee? My employer? How about me?

What would be next? Should we have a maximum wage now to go along with are minimum wage.
They would be as equally moronic.

People should be allowed to achieve their maximum earning potential as decided by other peoples needs and not be blocked from achieving this by some Governmental Committee.

Just because some people are greedy does not make others any less envious. Of the two envy is far more destructive and with less redeeming value to society.

The Straw Man
I'm not at all sure about the "greed" fallacy. Wholesale acceptance of an adjective as taking some sort of action, independent of an actual object that requires a verb to undergird a construct is problematic, in my own straying mind.

Profiteers emerge in every place where a shortage has sprung to life, such as in our recent diasters. Usually some very localized acts of "profiteering" are discovered and the "perps" are fined and otherwise humiliated before those whom they formerly abused.

Now I could say that the profiteer was acting in a "greedy" way. But another might only consider him a good capitalist. There any number of factors at work in any like situation. "Grred" cannot stand alone, There should therefore be other acts that violate the statutory context of place and time.

But I do not see "greed" as one of them, for which individual (profiteer)could be tried for "greed". Could such a prosecution present certain evidence so that anyone might be found guilty, or innocent for that matter. As has been stated, who is it that defines "greed".

In my mind, that definition could run the gamut from the taking of the last piece of a popular holiday dessert, thereby defrauding Granny of her right to the pleasures of same. Just who does Granny think she is anyway?

On the other end of the spectrum of "greed" is a horrifying, monstrous grand theft during the plunder of one nation over others? Stipulations are legion demonstrating the incredible dimensions of the rape. I am speaking specifly of the National Socialists of WWII.

Untold numbers of perhaps otherwise "moderate" individuals, under the tutelage of a single individual who bred in a generation a madness so arrogant as to be unbelievable. Yet the evidence was there for the world to see and wonder at.

Individuals were set free to agrandize themselves with a ferocity before unknown.Greed and averice were set free.

A holy silence reigned over the unholy. Hardened warriors wept at the sight of the ovens and the mass graves, all made more grotesque by the gruesome simplicity of the crates of gold dental prosthetics and eye-glass frames hidden away to be used later to violate more millions in the same way.

"Greed" is the gleeming edge of a lust within all of us. "Greed" is trivialized as the witness testified, "I only made the trains run ontime". And he was shocked when the jury failed to see not only his faithfulness but his innocence as well. His defense, his diligence.

Today, the cry of the few that "so and so" is filled with greed for the taking of the offered salary, bonus, etc. Today I think that the term "Greed" is ,merely a straw man.

The same "creature" with a different face,(but who has time to notice) is dragged before the masses, set up as proof that the rich are more greedy than we thougt. The straw-man is duly humiliated and having been convicted by its own testimony is then bravely knocked over by our "committee clad knights".

Self-righteously we wear the "victory" as proof that what we believed was true. Our champions stand,worthy, before us. Of course they are the paragons of virtue, above reproach, and therefore worthy of their own raises and contributions, etc.

Do we envy the wealth of the rich? The straw-man, "greed" can be kept at arms length where there is no chance that we might smell the smoke within our own souls. And as the straw-man "greed" is burnt in effigy, we are purified.


Great Article as Usual Dr. Sowell.
Why is that when Corporate executives, that are the driving forces of company profitability, get paid large sums of money... the left screams bloody murder? But when athletes, actors and entertainers get paid unreal sums of money you don't hear a peep from the left?

Capitalism is capitalism. It's a free market, you're paid what the market determines you're worth.

The left and the uneducated like to accuse the the Oil companies of collusion when gas prices rise, but never mention the fact that oil companies make 9 cents a gallon in profits, whereas the Government tacks on 50+ cents in taxes.

The left also fails to mention that a large portion of the oil company profits go to reinvestment and exploration. Where does the Government waste the 50+ cent per gallon tax money that we pay? Now I don't know about you, but 9 cents a gallon (of gas) doesn't affect my lifestyle, but 50 cents a gallon certainly does.

Why don't the leftists complain how high movie, sporting event, and concert ticket prices are? The average family can no longer afford to attend these events because of the ridiculous prices. But I never hear any complaints from the left. Corporations are virtually the only ones that can afford to buy these tickets anymore.

The left and uneducated will never admit their hypocrisy. Especially when the majority of the people in this country sit on our hands and tolerate it.

It's going to take the socialization of our country before people wake up. All you have to do is look across the pond at Europe and across the boarder in Canada to see where we're headed.

It's time for the PC police to take a hike, so we the people, can take back our country.

Steve
Steve is contrarian because he thinks its trendy. His "Jesus Loves You but Hates Capitalism" mentality is borne of a passionate and vicious antipathy to a capitalist system that apparently has "screwed" him. Pay his circular logic no heed.

His Native American analogy is particularly laughable. I don't dispute that the Native Americans practiced trade in a nominally "free market," but for trade to occur, Native Americans had to produce a surplus of goods that other tribes wanted. The currency was the commodity, so immediately trade is hindered (and less free) than in an economy which recognizes a common currency. More importantly, his vision of Native American free markets is based on the romanticized ideal of Native American life and culture one would observe in the Disney film Pocahontas.

It is a disturbing trend of liberals to disparage the system and the entrepreneurs that provided them with the advanced and pleasant quality of life that they enjoy everyday. Capitalism works because it takes advantage of the full range of human characteristics, including what many would disparage as vices but also those customarily noble virtues. In fact, capitalism has a unique ability to wring benevolent results from the base exercise of "greed" and the lust for wealth. Consumers can only be compelled to part with their money if the producer can convince them that his goods or services will benefit them. Those Scrooges who horde their accumulated wealth are actually not behaving in a capitalistic fashion. In fact, the character of Scrooge crafted by Dickens, and employed ad nauseum as an example of capitalist excess by socialists, is in fact not a capitalist - capitalists do not horde wealth, they spend it.

To Steve and others
Those of you who argue that “greedy” capitalists are somehow taking from other people to increase their own wealth are making an erroneous assumption. You assume that if some avaricious individual works hard and increases his fortune that he is doing it at the expense of some “regular” Joe who is not so greedy. This is not true. Economics is not a zero sum game where someone wins and someone loses. If some avaricious individual like Bill Gates works hard and “invents” a product that everyone buys not only does he get rich, but jobs are created for others, money flows throughout the system, and everyone benefits’ as the economy rises.

Good one
After working for over 30 years for someone else then starting my own business with all that entails has given me a new appreciation for wealth and those who have it. In the free market, money is a measure of what other people think of your service and are willing to pay. Pay for government workers is figured completely different. Years of experience negotiating with county govt. on behalf of fellow firefighters taught me that governments want all of their employees to show up to work for as close to nothing as possible. A former personnel director from whom I sat across during contract negotiations told me "raises happen here two ways: 1. people are walking out the door and we have to pay to keep them, 2. political influence." Governments also don't like one employee group getting a larger percentage raise than another. Since the government employs such a large percentage of us today, it wouldn't surprise me that so many of us project their socialist compensation system onto the private sector, where the rules are completely different. Personally, I would not want to give up the free market to assuage the concerns some have over what they perceive as greed. Remember while Bill Gates and others have become billionairs, they created incredible wealth for others along the way who believed in their vision. Also, I have never heard of a poor person providing anyone a job.
For all those who are critical of Tom Sowell's piece, get out in the "real world" of owning a business before you show your ignorance of the best economic system ever created.

re: Happy Jake (off-topic...)
Happy Jake wrote:

"... By the way, you cannot have both Freedom of religion AND Freedom from it. You are free to choose how and if you worship, that is true... Freedom FROM Religion means not having to endure the existence of it..."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That, sir, is utterly incorrect. HOWEVER, I cannot fault you. You have simply been misinformed by people that either do not understand *or* intentionally twist things to fit their own agendas.

Freedom FROM Religion, properly understood, does NOT mean freedom from ANY exposure TO religion. What it DOES mean is that, we enjoy the freedom to NOT have (any) religion imposed upon us, either in part or in whole, by the police power of the state. No one has the Natural Authority, individually or collectively through government, to impose *their* beliefs upon others, compelling them, through Law, to believe *OR* behave in accordance to *their* beliefs.


Freedom OF Religion -- the freedom to believe and worship as one's own conscience dictates -- out of necessity *REQUIRES* Freedom FROM Religion. Without Freedom FROM Religion, SOMEONE will rise to prominence and/or power and impose their religion upon others denying the Freedom OF Religion.

Contrary to popular, secularist belief, the two -- Freedom OF Religion and Freedom FROM Religion -- are NOT mutually exclusive. Rather, when properly understood, they are codependent!

One question liberals can't answer:
Who is more greedy? The person who simply wants to keep the money he earns, or the person who feels entitled to the money other people earn?

Donaldd
There was also a 600% inflation in the Consumer Price Index between 1971 and 1981, which may explain why during the 70's, even with a shortage, oil and gas were cheaper.

But, why bother yourself with facts when you can bash Bush, right?

An Interesting Note
What exactly IS greed? To liberals, it is embodied by anyone who has more than them. Anything up to what they make and have is OK. There is only one exception to this definition...wealthy liberals like John Kerry and Hollywood stars who have proven that they are not greedy by their willingness to seize the assets of others for redistribution (but never, of course, their own).

I am curious about the lifestyles of liberals like Steve, Kimberly and others on this site who seem so secure in their smug belief that they are morally superior to "greedy" conservatives. We already know that statistically, they donate far less to charity than the dreaded "Scrooge" conservatives. But surely, they have never accepted a promotion or a raise...this would be undeniable proof of greed...someone else more needy can have the job or the extra money. And they undoubtedly live in 1 bedroom appartments and drive $500 beaters, donating the rest of their assets and income to the poor. No? Why not? "We want to provide for our children" they say. Yet by their own definition, the needs and wants of poor children automatically trump their desire to provide for their own families. No, I'm afraid that as always, liberals are deluded, hypocritical fools.

Other side notes:

Thickasabrick - this has to be a personal assessment...no one this obtuse could possibly appreciate the works of Ian Anderson.

Vic - Hilarious link! And nice (and unexpected) Frank Herbert reference.

Fletch - great job as always in explaining the facts...wasted, I'm afraid

Kimberly says it all!
"Did Exxon reward the super-rich leader for his stake in the gluttony? I believe so. How very un-American when you think about it."

What an amusing, and revealing, statement. Usually loony tune wacko Communists respond to articles like this with "the American dream is dead!"

Kimberly, on the other hand responds with "the American dream is **un-American**!"

Kimmy, do you REALLY believe that rewarding success is un-American?

Wait, what am I saying, OF COURSE you do!

The modern day kooky commie doesn't beleive in rewarding success, but instead truly believes that mediocrity should be the goal of all. After all, if EVERYONE can't be the best, then EVERYONE should be FORCED, through threat of violence, to be as misserable as the least-best of all of us. We can't have lazy morons (read: Democrats) feeling bad about themselves, now can we?

To Donaldd
I don't see how it is possible for someone to be so consistently wrong. If you threw darts at a wall blindfolded you have a better track record. I guess some blind pigs just root around and starve in a field full of acorns. Oh where to begin. (1) The first big gas hike occured when the arabs did the embargo and it has never returned to to its original levels. (2) Refinery capacity has not gone down, it has just not increased while the demand has increased. The reason it has not increased is because libtard greenies with help from the Democrats have PREVENTED more from being built. (3) Show me all these major oil companies that have merged. I see the same big oil companies that were around when I was a kid in the 50's are still here. (4) As FDR said, the only fear we have here is yours. My fear is that there are too many idiots in the world.

Think of it this way...
If you think of executive (or even athlete and movie star) compensation as a certain amount per unit sold, the numbers don't look so ridiculous anymore.

RE: Donaldd
Ah, but what Jesus did NOT say is "I DEMAND that you give all of your stuff to 'charity', else I'll kill your dog, your son, your wife, and your family friend!"

THAT is the BIG difference between Jesus and Democrats. Jesus asks others to be charitable. Democrats DEMAND others be charitable though the threat of violence.

I feel your pain!
Greed's definition: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.

Can greed be seen by a CEO receiving $400M? No. I am sure he doesn't think it is excessive on his part nor does he think he deserves less. And as far as it being more than he needs there are lots of things a person can do with $400M.

Greed can only be seen by people that do not receive the $400M. On their part it is envy that motivates their seeing greed.

The only problem I have with my CEO getting a BIG check is when my yearly pay is held to less than reported inflation even though my appraisal was good.

And I also realize that if he received no compensation at all and his wage was spread over all the employees in my company it would amount to less than a 1.5% pay increase.

The media loves to emotionalize discussion by throughing around the greed word. Mr. Sowell makes some very good points. People need to quit thinking and talking about greed and envy. It is not productive.


Socialism is not the opposite of
Socialism is not the opposite of Capitalism, because both use a central bank, taxes, and "regulations" to provide a desired outcome. In other words, "expectations" is actually the determining factor.

If I do behavior X, then I expect to get Y as a reward. So people vote, expecting to get a certain government, and the government embodies ideas which become policies, etc. It is a big looooong chain of "expectations."

Expectations is cause and effect. It implies a certain amount of scientific certainty. However, with the creation of currency (and this is true of bartered goods as well) expectations becomes translated into "value." What is the value of a good, of your health, of convenience, etc? These things are not easily valued, and in the hierarchy of needs, it would seems that the least valuable the activity (playing sports, etc) the more highly certain people are rewarded.

How is it that a person who plays sports all his life (a very self-absorbed life) is highly rewarded, but a priest or care-giver who spends his life teaching/helping people (a very not self-absorbed life) is constantly begging? Obviously, there is something in our "expectation" of value that is out of whack.

There is a story that goes like this: Two college kids were heading out on a Friday night for the clubs. On the way, they pass a beggar, and one of them passes him $5. "What did you do that for?" say the friend, "He is just going to get drunk on it!." "Yes, I know," says the generous friend, "but that is all we were going to do with it, too."

Some people are more concerned with the cup, the value of the cup, how pretty the cup is. That determines their "expectations." They define themselves by what they own, by who they "beat" in the dog race, and other superficial standards. Others have different expectations. Who are we as a society? What do we want to teach our children? How can we help others, and how did situations (like war and poverty) occur? They are more concerned with what is in the cup. Is it poison, or does it give life and nurishment?

We all have expectations in regard to how we treat friends and family. We share our food and our homes. But when it comes to strangers, stores, bosses and employees, what determines our relationships is "values." Regardless of the form of currency, we all become prostitutes to our "expectations." We demand a profit, not an even exchange, and certainly not "giving," and in that sense, the socialists, capitalists, islamists, etc., are all the same. The creation of currency, the determination of value, and the desire for profit is all exactly the same, aka the marketplace. Nowhere in these theories, however, is there a basic understanding of what is creating our expectations. And the answer is (drum roll please) INFLATION.

Once you create a value, and beging to manipulate that value, you create inflation. The inflation creates fear, the fear triggers greed as a way to protect oneself from inflation. The more people hoard and profit, the faster inflation accelerates.

The love of money is the root of all evil, but that doesn't explain how. The answer is that inflation makes everyone poor, physically, spiritually and intellectually. We could be living in a clean world of abudance and peace, instead we pollute the world and live in war and poverty. Yet, we are too afraid to alter our "expectations."

Got freewill? Use it!

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Greedy Beatles
No one (especially liberal do-gooders) ever ascribes greed as the reason for the enormous compensation enjoyed by superstar actors and musicians-especially the “virtuous” ones like John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Sting, etc.

Greed and Envy
The biggest thing I see in those denouncing Capitalism is ENVY.

It must be pretty safe to say where Capitalism is built on greed, Socialism is built on envy.

In one system people strive to reach their max potential the other people try to hold others back.

Neither is perfect but one does have a much more healthier attitude on life

re: Fletch
Fletch wrote:

"... Bill gates has given more to charity than just about anyone else on the face of the planet. How do you suppose he got the funds to do so? Moreover, by creating a company in a productive society he has created millions of jobs that will 'help' far more people for a much longer period of time than all of the moneys he's given to charity..."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Right on!

“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime” — Author unknown


What helps *more* people in the long run? A one-time $10,000,000 charitable donation? Or a $10,000,000 capital investment in a business?

Sure, both have the potential to be abused and squandered, harming more than helping. But assuming *both* are managed responsibly, on average capital investments are more productive than equal charitable contributions.

Hmmm... capitalism has done more to produce the *richest* poor in the world than all the help-the-poor charities *AND* government "charity" programs combined.

Second try
In one system people strive to reach their max potential. In the other system people try to keep others from reaching their potential.

I am envious of some of you for your eloquence :-)

Voice of reason
Voice of reason simply cut and pasted his blog... and that kind of irks me. I responded thus:

"If (as many conservatives do), we find the answer to the above ONLY in the word "Religion", we are deluding ourselves."
I don't define religion as the ONLY reason America is so successful, but it definitely is a VITAL reason. If there are no people of moral principle, then a republic will not work since the citizens will not elect wise people to represent them. While some may maintain morality in the absence of religion, religion is the best tool that has been found to keep the most people most moral for the longest amount of time. If we neglect the religious roots of our republic, we do it at our own risk.
"A mathematician could write that equation as:
Christianity + Feudal System = Failure"

He would also write:
Irreligion+"the 'good' laws that our Founding Fathers derived from Religion" = liberalism and demise of those good laws.
Click on my name for more of this on my blog currently, but for now I'll simply paste:

"Whatever may be conceded to the influence of the refined education on minds of peculiar structure- reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." --George Washington's farewell address to the nation.

I always tend to read anti-religion posts with sceptically. I always have the feeling there is another motive in writing.

There is a common fallacy out there that since Jesus was in favor of aiding the poor, and since liberals try to aid the poor, that Christianity is actually MORE in favor of the left. It is simply their backminded ignorance and inability to let go of the abortion issue that prevents them from seeing the light. They further state how the apostles held "all things in common" as further proof that socialist ideology is the supreme system. But this is not so. Jesus wanted mankind to be free. The parable of the talents gives great insight into the economic system purported by Jesus. He was in favor of everyone using their talents to accumulate as much as possible and then VOLUNTARILY giving what they deem as fair to the poor. If a man voluntarily parts with what he has to help another (parable of the good Samaritan) then he has acted righteously. If a man is compelled to give to the poor, he has not acted of free will and his action is not counted to him for good.

This is why conservatives (mainly religious) give more to charity than liberals (mostly irreligious). I hold that private donations also do more to help the poor that the left states they support than any government program ever has.
Take Bill Gates. He is the richest individual around. But why is he not vilified by the left as a greedy capitalist? Because now he goes around giving his wealth away for charity and the left can twist that for their own good (Man of the Year, case in point...) This accumulation of wealth is what Jesus promoted, and what liberals are against.

Greed is, indeed good. But liberals look at it as saying that to accumulate wealth at the expense of others is bad. This may be true, but to gain wealth for the intent to do good is ultimately better. The system in place is the one that allows free accumulation and subsequent donation to happen. This is the system Jesus would support, not liberalism. The founders set up our nation to run on these principles, and we undermine it at our own risk.

Steve: I'm still waiting...
... for you to provide, pursuant to your assertion the free market "does not exist," your own definition of "free market."

Bloviate all you want, but unless and until you actually reply to debate, you show yourself to be an intellectual coward.

Emotions are not proofs.
Folks are disputing Sowell’s proved points with questions and claims based on emotion.

thickasabrick says, “Where do YOU draw the line between "fair" and "greed"? …And how many people will agree with YOUR definition of "fair"? Define the "average man's innate sense of decency" in dollars and cents.”

Marxist organizations often use “fair”, “justice”, “equality” etc. in their titles. Thick Brick is trying to find who, other than himself and fellow Marxist, dare define “fair”, a subjective word of comparison. IE fair, compared to what, decent compared to what? He further makes the point for givernment (sic) to determine fair because otherwise you need a national vote to determine it to get “how many people will agree”.

Marxist use the minimum wage as the comparison of course, because it is their hope one day in the beautiful Utopia of collectivism that has plagued mankind throughout the ages that all will be able to make the minimum wage one glorious day, Bill Gates included. Their real thinking is how can a guy be worth 100M a year running a corporation when guys like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, yada yada have to play real hard during the season to earn their $100M a year. I mention them because Marxist are only concerned about corporations and capitalist symbols, therefore you don’t seem them picketing a Tiger Wood golf game or a Jordan basketball game.

Fair is when two people enter into a contract to transact value wherein there is no outside influence, be it by Marxist protest in the street or their coercion of givernment (sic) intervention. Now the richest guy in the country is Bill Gates. His company provides a product at a price that was/is actually much cheaper than the others. So people around the world decided to take advantage of his cheap price point and he transacted his value for their value and he did it over and over until all those tiny profits added up to making him the most rewarded for providing the most value to the most people. It therefore is most fair that Gates be worth $40B because he has created more than $40B of value to the world, otherwise they wouldn’t have freely paid him $40B for his value. Yet, the minimum wage guy has created little to no value.

Steve L. mentions, “… CEO of ExxonMobil cashed out for $400 million …, people screamed and yelled about the price of his buyout.” This was not a buyout but merely a disbursement from his career accumulated deferred earnings plus whatever they earned. And he had a long career where he didn’t take all his earnings each year. I think after whatever the earnings from what it was invested in, that works out to about $5M a year.

But let us put CEO high compensation into context. The average CEO has a job span of roughly 3 years. So he may make a lot of money for 3 years, but he usually becomes unemployable for the remainder of his life. Coca Cola was blowing through their guys annually. Do you hear of Robinson of Amex after is stint, Sculley of Apple, Ross Johnson of RJR, etc? Nope, they all put consultant on their business card and play golf everyday. CEO’s are short lived and thereafter unemployable damaged goods.

We can not compare CEO jobs because they face a 3 year expected career and then forced retirement which in Sculley, Johnson etc cases can often be at a young age. So the Marxist aren’t comparing apples to apples to begin with.

Now Voice_of_Reason gives us his “reasoned” view of atheism/enlightenment that God is the problem of poverty. But then God must be the solution for atheist Marxist to put everybody into fair/equal poverty.

Voice says, “If (as many conservatives do), we find the answer to the above ONLY in the word "Religion", we are deluding ourselves.” This is a true conclusion, but faulty proof. These are not “conservatives” per se, but rather of Dominionist who often are affiliated with the Repub party that can be hardly considered anything but neo-Marxist.

Voice continues his plug for atheism with, “After all, Religion was quite a dominant factor in Europe, Asia and other parts of the world. Why didn't their success mirror ours?” Well Voice and a couple others have made a valid point that politics, religion and economics are not necessarily related, but the proof is faulty. Granted as Europe became atheist mid 1800's, probably the result of the adoption of Marxism and endless wars, their economies suffered. But when religion ruled Europe it was the economic engine of the world. Our nation religiously lasted longer until the strong assault of Marxism around the 1950’s and our economy began to produce less results wherein 3.5% growth is now praised as a miracle yet Singapore a few years ago fell off to 3.5% and considered themselves in a severe depression. Asia, including Marxist China have produced 9+ percent growth rates for some 3 plus decades. Dare say many countries in Asia are religious. Finally, even politics is not economics per se, witness China were the politics is that the state is God, yet they produce great results.

The Bible’s Solomon had the richest country in history. Therefore how can we claim Christianity harmed wealth formation. So why divert from Sowell’s great article with a plug for atheism by using silly proofs.

As Voice properly points out, yet his proofs above not causal, is that the freedom to own and accumulate property is the power that drives men. Hoever, our founders claiming such coming from God in the Declaration. Voice properly concluded, “That is because America was built on the premise that the individual is free and the Govt is bound.”

Voice continues his plug for atheism with, “Many of our laws derived from Judeo-Christian principles - but does that make America a Christian country?” This is irrelevant for this discussion. Never the less, state Constitutions are somewhat Dominionist and originally had laws that could be considered Judeo-Christian, but certainly not today. But our Federal Givernment is not representing a teleocratic/Dominionist Constitution but rather nomocratic and I defy anybody to show me anything Christian in it except the perfunctory dating. However, the thirteen countries wanted their state religions protected from usurpation by the Feds, therefore like a marriage license our Constitution does not mention the wedding vows that are like the Declaration of Independence vows. The Constitution is the marriage license that provides a legal structure to let the Feds protect, but not interfere with our Declarations vows. Yet from the time of Reynolds v US, clearly the Feds have made religious determinations as set forth in such decision where it referenced Jefferson and Madison who claimed givernment does have a role in religion to protect its doctrine and history. We can sum up the founders by saying that givernment was to protect and promote religion (not denominations), but not protect us from religion as our secularist atheist claim today. Atheist wrongly claim that Madison is the father of separation/abolishing God from the state, yet he stated, “…there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion…. than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare ……the cause of Christ..."

I Find It Telling..
...that these liberals do not complain about the compensation that movie stars and singers make.

C Moore
One small quiblle: the real bromide is:

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; teach him to fish and he'll spend all day in a boat drinking beer."

Define greed
If I make $5.00/hr at my job and Bill makes $1.00/hr...some twit will accuse me of being greedy...go figure.

greed
Its funny how Dick Grasso is forced to give back a portion of his pay package after running the NYSE for 35 years and sports stars like A-Rod who have terrible seasons get a free pass.

Basics of economics
It might be useful for some to review the basics of economics at wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

If only we had a free market...

Oil companies.
The ignorant (read: Donaldd and other kooky commies) like to repeat the old fallacy about how "Big Oil" companies like Exxon/Mobile have somehow secured a monopoly and are driving prices. Unfortunately, this is in utter contradiction to the facts.

As it turns out, the ENTIRE private oil market constitutes about 10% of the oil market as a whole. A full 90% of the entire oil market is fully owned and operated by various governments around the world, and NOT by "greedy" coroporate CEOs.

Tell me, when, EXACTLY, did a 10% market share magically become a "monopoly"?

SparkyZ
I hereby extend my challenge to Steve, to include you as well: please provide your definition of what a "free market" is, pursuant to your assertion that we don't have one.

And please, no more links to Wikipedia. Inasmuch as anyone can write, and/or change the content of, a Wikipedia article, Wiki is useless for political discussions; it quite simply does not prove anything.

outrageous compensation
The free market is too efficient to allow the outrageous compensation we see today. So, what is the motive? Follow the money. The government gets 40%, lawyer agents get 10-20% and lawyer politicians get outrageous amounts for their campaigns, (for looking the other way?).Since the consumer pays for everything, could this be another hidden form of taxation>

Okay
At what point does desire become greed? I haven't heard of anyone here saying that they are going to refuse a raise. Is that because you're only making $30k, $50k, $200k annually? At what point is your salary based on "greed"?

I'm sorry, but if someone offers me $100 million a year to do a job, let's say CEO of Home Depot (I mean, I've used a hammer...), why would I turn that down? No, I certainly don't NEED $100m, but would YOU turn it down? I don't think so.

Curly:
Curly wrote: "Many times the skilled and talented people don't make it to the top. Instead, leaders are chosen or elected on the basis of silly reasons like friendship or internal politics. "

I didn't read the rest of the posts, so this may have already been responded to.

You miss the point. The ability to develop friends and manage politics is perhaps *the* essential *skill* of a CEO of a major corporation. Try leading a company without this ability. I don't care how good your other 'skills and talents' are. Without this, you'll fail.

Donaldd
I am absolutely stunned that in your discussion of refining capability in the U.S., you make absolutely NO MENTION of the way that Environmental legislation and restrictions have been employed to make the building of new refineries next to impossible.

Your credibility, what little you might once have had, is utterly shot.

Redistributions are generally bad
OK, so you've got an overpaid CEO. How do you redistribute? Ideally, the money should go to the other workers in the company, right? Except that that is not the way that leftists do redistributions. Instead, they have the government confiscate the money and redistribute over the general population of workers, which will include people working at companies where the CEO is underpaid. Is that fair?

Plus, along the way, the government will give away a lot of money, and plenty of that goes to wealthy liberals. People in academia and the arts get grants from the government, and the biggest grants go to the most prestigious among them, and those tend to be people from the prestigious schools who tend to be from wealthy backgrounds. Is it fair that these people should be taking money that should be going to the poor?

Plus, there's the money given as foreign aid. This money doesn't go directly to the poor in Africa but instead goes to the wealthy leader, who puts it in a Swiss bank account. Again, is this fair?

C'mon, all you liberals and leftists. Let's hear you describe a fair redistribution.