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Tuesday, January 16, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Another Vietnam?
by Thomas Sowell
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Nothing is easier than to second-guess decisions made in wartime. Anyone who has bothered to read the history of wars knows that very few wars have been without disastrous surprises, often on both sides.

It is not that the people in charge are stupid. Too many things are unpredictable in war, despite politicians who demand timetables, as if running a war is like running a train.

We can now look at the Iraq war with hindsight, as no President or Secretary of Defense could when making decisions that had to be made. Still, it can be useful to determine with hindsight what went wrong, if only to avoid similar mistakes in the future and to see what needs to be changed in the present.

Despite all the politicians who were demanding more troops a year ago, and who have turned around and are now demanding that no more troops be sent to Iraq, the purely military aspects of the war have gone better than in most wars.

We have learned the hard way, notably in the Vietnam war, that military victories are not enough. American troops scored a big victory on the battlefield in 1968 that was presented in the American media as a big defeat -- and that began the political unravelling of the Vietnam war.

Many in the media seem to think that they did something noble, to get us out of an "unwinnable" war. But the war was unwinnable only because they made it so politically. Even after American troops were withdrawn from Vietnam, South Vietnam was able to hold off the invaders from North Vietnam.

Only after Congress cut off financial support for South Vietnam, while the North Vietnamese continued to get support from the Communist bloc, did South Vietnam fall.

Since then, even the Communist conquerors have admitted that they did not win on the battlefield, but in the American media and in the American political arena, surrounded by an atmosphere created by a defeatist media.

Most of the today's media, led by the New York Times, has been even more blatantly one-sided in their reporting. Everyone I have heard from in person who has actually been in Iraq paints a far different picture from that of the gloom and doom of the media.

Make no mistake about it, we can still lose this war, but it will have to be lost politically. Most of the tragic chaos in Iraq today has its origins in politics.

American and other coalition troops in Iraq have had their hands tied with "rules of engagement" based on political, rather than military, considerations.

You cannot have law and order in any country where armed bands of competing militias can terrorize the population. Instead of confronting these militias at the outset with an ultimatum to disarm or be killed, we let the Iraqi government veto what our military forces could do, leaving Shi'ite militias intact in Baghdad's "Sadr City" neighborhood and elsewhere.

Having pushed the "democracy" vision for Iraq, we could not simply disregard the country's elected government. But democracy arose in western civilization centuries after law and order had been established. We tried to do it in the reverse order in Iraq.

When push comes to shove, people will support tyranny rather than suffer lethal chaos that makes normal everyday life impossible for themselves and their children.

The success or failure of the troop surge in Iraq may depend far more on whether those troops can again be hamstrung by politically restrictive "rules of engagement" than on how many troops there are.

The Maliki government is politically dependent on one of the very Baghdad militias that needs to be disarmed. We can pressure and warn Maliki all we want, but his real choice will be whether he can survive -- either politically or personally -- without militia support.

Our choice may become whether we are prepared to sacrifice more American lives in order to prop up the Maliki government or whether we are prepared to sacrifice the Maliki government in order to restore law and order in Iraq.

That government is a product of our "nation-building" under the banner of a "democracy" for which Iraq may not have been ready.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Fight to Win
Right on, Dr. Sowell. I've never understood why most politicians look to public opinion in order to decide what to do. I really wish we'd get a hardliner, conservative of course, who would go into office to get things done and to hell with a reelection. Bush was like that to begin with, but now he seems to just fold to the "girly-men" in Congress; remember how privatizing social security just died out. Grow a pair and use your veto power! I just pray that the Republicans come to their senses, stop pandering to liberals who won't vote for them if their lives depended on it, and support the troops instead of hamstringing them; they do this by remaining silent while the Dems whine and moan their way to victory.

Perfectly explained Dr. Sowell,
The MSM and Liberals continue to be more of an enemy to to our country than patriots. They remain focused on the establishment of a socialists society at any cost. The damage they're doing to America in time of war is unforgivable, approaching traitorous!

We Vets that post here, having spent actual time in combat. Have said many times. That this war in Iraq would have been over a long time ago if the damn politicians and the MSM would get out of the way, and let our military perform as it was designed and trained to do.

Sowell's amnesia?
Is Mr Sowell being deliberately deceptive or did he recently suffer a severe case of (politically convenient) amnesia?

Mr Sowell gripes that our military is just trying to prop up the Maliki government, which largely rests on the support of Shi'a militias. Sowell laments that Iraq may not be ready for democracy. However, if Iraq is not ready for democracy then the invasion of Iraq is without justification. We didn't invade Iraq to crush it, to slaughter its people, to treat the civilian population with indifference, and to pulverize its cities. Supposedly it was an act of benevolence -- we overthrew Hussein's regime because it mistreated the Iraqi people, not Americans, and we were going to create a "democracy" that allowed the Iraqi people freedom, hope, and peace.

If the Iraqi people are unprepared for democracy, then we should leave. What's our interest in killing more Iraqis? Thomas Sowell thinks our mission in Iraq is being hamstrung by "political" concerns, but these "political" concerns that MR Sowell pooh poohs are the very thing that justifies our presence in Iraq -- liberating Iraq from terror and bestowing upon them the benefits of western "democracy."

If Iraqi democracy cannot mature beyond Shia death squads, then there's nothing we can do to change it, and we should leave. However, Mr Sowell thinks we just need to kill lots of people, but never gets around to explaining why. And that's because the war has no higher moral purpose, no sanctified cause, but just to kill Iraqis because we have the power to kill Iraqis.





Red Tooth
BIGbelly is right! We need to bomb them back to the stone age! But first we need to round up every stinking Liberal and put them in Ground Zero! Who the blank cares what you think!? Your an idiotic Liberal!

Red Tooth
Do you read anything about the Iraq war and what it's about? You show your ignorance to the nth degree in saying Bush just wants to kill Iraqis.
But, I shouldn't really take anything you say seriously; anti-war libs don't use reason for their opinions, just Bush hate.

How about this one, "just the facts, sir, just the facts". Do you have any facts to spout?

BigBelly
Your post was right on. If we had done those things in the beginning we would have been out of there by now.

Peppermintie?
"BIGbelly is right! We need to bomb them back to the stone age!"

If that is your opinion then you believe the United States needs to pick up the bloodshed where Saddam left off.

Here is Bush right on the eve of war:

"Many Iraqis can hear me tonight in a translated radio broadcast, and I have a message for them. If we must begin a military campaign, it will be directed against the lawless men who rule your country and NOT against you. As our coalition takes away their power, we will deliver the food and medicine you need. We will tear down the apparatus of terror and we will help you to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and FREE. In a free Iraq, there will be no more wars of aggression against your neighbors, no more poison factories, no more executions of dissidents, no more torture chambers and rape rooms. The tyrant will soon be gone. The day of your LIBERATION is near."

However, if you believe we need to bomb them back to the stone age, a colloqualism for genocide, then we can't say we are any better than Saddam. Right and wrong simply disappear. Civilized people put moral limits on power.

You are neither civilized nor moral.

I suppose that's why Mr Bush's lies don't bother you.


A semi-response to red tooth....
I'm not sure if Sowell has amnesia. He's stood against nation-building long before the Iraq War.

I think he's dealing with the fact that, like it or not, we're there. And we have serious problems that we CAN solve, IF, our military is free to solve them.

Net
What purpose does the war in Iraq have except nation-building? The definition of victory implies nation-budilding: 1) an Iraqi government that can stand on its own 2) supports us in the War on Terror 3) is democratic and 4) can fight the terrorists.

If you are against nation-building then you should be against the war in Iraq. Did we invade Iraq just to level its cities and massacre its people?


Bombing/Stone Age
I would wager that if Bill "cigar" Clinton was still the president that all of the anti-US liberals posting here would be the ones calling for bombing and relaxation of the ROE. This anti-US engagement in Iraq is a direct result of the insane Bush hatred that exists in liberal land.

vic
Amen!

Red Tooth opines:
"What purpose does the war in Iraq have except nation-building? The definition of victory implies nation-budilding: 1) an Iraqi government that can stand on its own 2) supports us in the War on Terror 3) is democratic and 4) can fight the terrorists..."

I've got no problem calling this "nation-building" by the definition of victory.

But Dr. Sowell is correct... you cannot deal with the political issues until law and order is established.

In your responses to BIGbelly and others, you seem to believe that all they are advocating is for our military to shoot in all directions. You imply it is an "either/or" proposition -- either kill everybody or kill nobody.

Nothing is further from the truth. What BIGbelly and other like-minded thinkers are suggesting is really very simple -- if you break the law and are using deadly force to do so -- if you do not peacefully cease and desist -- deadly force by the enforcers of law is justified to end your law-breaking and disband your forces -- "political correctness" notwithstanding.

BIGbelly
You da MAN.

Deliberate misrepresentations....
are par for the course....

Our troops are not allowed to go in certain cities. So the non-Iraqis who are in Iraq killing Iraqi citizens by the busload have 'safe havens' and reloading/regrouping centres.

Our troops are not allowed to injure a mosque. So the non-Iraqi islamo-fascists are given safe havens and sniper nests to shoot and kill Iraqi Citizens from. With no fear of reprisal or return-fire due to their taking up residence inside a Mosque.

Why? Because as free Americans we have a disgust for people who deface religious institutions for the sake of destroying them. Sadly this tolerance for others and their viewpoints is being used against us.

Americans have not done the majority of killing of Iraqis in Iraq. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the 'enemy' casualties in this war that have been caused by American forces are to non-Iraqi citizens.

If you want to go after the ones killing hte Iraqis en masse, then you need to start talking to Iran and Syria about THEIR citizens in Iraq doing the killing.

But i doubt that the facts matter in arguments like this; only the bush-bashing matters.



The reason Iraq is not ready for democracy is clearly stated in thge article. Do some of you actually read the articles before posting your diatribes? But i'll rephrase what Mr. Sowell said and see if that will sink in for the reading-comprehension-challenged

Iraq was not ready for democracy because law and order had not been established yet. In every other 'nation building' excercise we have cleared out the enemy government, established law & order, and THEN established the republic. In iraq the law & order was not established first....the government was allowed to form and then given the task of establishing law & order....

PS Would everyone PLEASE stop saying that we are spreading "democracy"? that form of government is just as bad or worse than a dictatorship....tyranny of many masters instead of a tyranny of one master....

Most of us vets here
especially retired guys, still have ties to our respective services and therefore have info the libs and other whiners never see, not that they care about it or have the capacity to understand strategic thought mind you.
Our guys ARE having to fight a PC war, if a bad guy shoots at you from a mosque and you can't fight back, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

The libs and the MSM don't really care that some of our guys get killed, they are more concerned with Bush getting blamed for anything they can dream up because they consider him to be illigitimate, gore should be in there or kerry in their twisted little minds. Can you even begin to imagine what a mongolian clusterf6&8k that would be?

Kerry should have been prosecuted for treason for his lies about Nam, yet almost half the country voted for this fool and they listen to his BS today as if he actually has a clue.

The dems didn't care a whit about Nam or what happened after they pulled the plug and they don't care about Iraq now, they never learn, the difference is what will happen if we are seen to have lost in Iraq. The President is absolutely right, these islamos will get nukes and they will use them..right here and when it happens you have only liberals to blame. You can't blame that one on GW, he tried to tell us, you libs weren't listening.

GW is too nice, were I POTUS that iranian midget would have been gone along time ago along with any other loonybin with nuke aspirations, I cannot see why we need to go boots on the ground when we have the ability to decimate these animals with the push of a button.
The libs will whine about collateral damage in that scenario, yet cannot see what inaction will cost us here at home.

Vic
I wonder: If Bush was getting head from an intern and perjuring his way through Congressional hearings while under oath, would bombing foreign countries be okay with liberals?

Well said!
As usual, Dr. Sowell has it right!

Red Tooth
writes: "However, if Iraq is not ready for democracy then the invasion of Iraq is without justification."

Did Saddam and his government violate the terms of the 1991 ceasefire agreement? If the answer is yes, then it was our obligation under international law and the terms of that agreement to immediately resume operations against him and to take him and his government OUT! Unfortunately, for 8 years of his continual violations, Hillary was President, so nothing got done. If we had gone in then, we'd have found plenty of WMDs. The downside is that he would have used some on our personnel and Israel.

Justification justified!

Red Tooth
Doctor, and it is "Doctor," not "MR"--9caps yours)as you so purpose(ful]ly called him), Sowell's memory is just fine. It is your reading comprehension that is in question. Doctor Sowell nowhere states that Iraqis are not ready for democracy. He states that democracy cannot be established before law and order are established, and that, in Iraq, we have placed the cart before the horse.

And "nation building," while an important part of the War on Terror, is not the primary reason the war was carried into Iraq. This war is about ending terrorism and righting the nations that support terrorism. Saddam was known to be a supporter of terrorism and had ties to every Islamofascist terrorist organization on earth, including Al Qaeda. There may have been no direct link between Saddam and 9/11, but this war is not solely about 9/11. It is about terrorism.

BIGbelly
Very good response to "Karl 'red tooth' Marx" (another "hammer & sickle" troll)

To Reagan Revolutionary
If a Republican was in office getting head from an intern, perjuring himself in Congress and in court the Republicans in congress would have asked him to step down and impeached him with a conviction if he did not. As I recall, the Republicans were ready to impeach Nixon also.

BIGbelly

Good job in answer to Red Tooth. If I only had
one tooth and it was RED, I would try to be funny
too.

Winning the War
Red Tooth - Townhall is not for quitters!

"You don't loose if you're defeated.

You loose if you quit!"

(Not from IVES, rather a quote, no a great quote!)

It amazes me
That libs simply believe we can talk anyone into compliance or to death! Even more amazing is the fact they seem not to realize it is their liberal free sex, sleaze, porn, etc that the radical Islamists hate the most.

Apologies to Loyal Democrat

Regulars will recognize the reason for the title. The inane idea of premature and unconditional withdrawal from Iraq leads to this scenario.

To Loyal Democrat; your unique perspective on a topic of particular interest for me would be appreciated:

The heart of the writing would be to identify those present political characteristics and social trends in the United States which are similar to the maladies oft cited as drivers of the decline and fall of the Roman empire, (i.e. political gridlock, voter apathy, public demand for government guaranteed bread and entertainment and sustenance and medical care and protection from natures pestilence, as well as modification of laws and legal systems to support increasing liberal moral freedoms).

LD please explain that the above social attitudes are important such that the United States can focus on the important issues of political correctness, idealistic environmental leadership, development of celebrity for the entertainment of the masses, social justice by distributive tax laws, and other social programs aimed at mollifying the public and sustaining elite leadership seeking legacies in such matters. Certainly recognition of and compensation for the elite members of society who can lead this movement are important issues.

Perhaps most important would be to withdraw from any foolish war aimed at unnecessary idealistic but unrealistic goals to protect human rights and personal freedom for other nations and societies. In other words accelerate alignment of the US society, political institutions, and societal attitudes with those liberal socialistic European nations who are so far ahead of the US in this important transition. This transition could be enhanced by the US distancing itself from the UK who is not fully aligned with the liberal socialistic trend.

The article would close with the observation that these changes and realignments are necessary to assure that the United States does not interfere with the natural evolution of China as the new world super power. This would assure the United States can avoid military conflict with that evolving giant. We all know the American temperament will not permit a war with anyone. Negotiation and concession through diplomacy are the only answers. This strategy would allow us to demonstrate our proper and subservient thankfulness to the Chinese for being available to assume the position of world leadership and continue to assure continuance of cultural, technical, and economic growth thereby avoiding another dark age.


First and second guessing
Who is second guessing? Many of us opposed the war from the beginning. Most people who (1) knew anything about fighting, or (2) knew anything about Iraq, thought something like this would happen. Only Bush and the eyes closed mouths open neocons managed to talk themselves into thinking it would go well.

And you military guys, what do you say about the fact that most US forces in Iraq think they're losing?

You guys who still support the Bush "stay the course, up the PR" strategy, why do you hate America so much that you put your own foolish pride before the good of the nation. The Ahab wing of the Republican party.

To liberalgoodman
Where did you get this cr*p about "most US forces in Iraq". I follow several blogs maintained by current serving personnel in Iraq. NOT a single one of them thinks we are losing. What they are consistent about is that the liberal press and you whining liberal barking moonbats are losers. They do say that we do not need the increase in troops; what they say is that they need a ROE change so they can kill more bad guys.

parallels between Iraq and Vietnam

Another Vietnam?
I pray that it's not, but I believe Mr. Sowell is absolutely correct that the key to victory is going to be the political and national will here in America to actually win this war.

Is it unwinnable? It seems to me to be the same sort of question that's been raised so many times in our history. In 1864 Lincoln and the Union were in trouble. Even after the victory at Gettysburg there was a groundswell in the country to negotiate a peace with the confederacy. McClellan, who had once commanded the Union army, was the Democratic nominee for president. He was called a peace candidate. I've read that Lincoln assumed he was going to lose the election. Lincoln aslo had to endure the almost constant vicious attacks against him. The media portrayed him as a monkey, a buffoon, and a blood-thirsty tyrant. Defeat was almost assured.

The thing that changed it all was the manner in which Grant and Sherman were allowed to prosecute the war. Grant determined that he would chase and fight Lee's army in a war of attrition. It was bloody, but it finally got Lee moving in the right direction. Sherman made the decision to split the confederacy. His "march to the sea" was bloody/brutal. As terrible as it all was, the result was a Union victory.

I wonder what this nation would look like today without a Union victory. Would we have wound up with two nations who would subsequently compete for the territory from Kansas to the Pacific Ocean? Would involuntary servitude still be the law of the land in the confederate nation?

History has accurately judged that the Union cause was noble, first because it preserved the Union and second because it ended the evil practice of slavery. Few today could credibly say that negotiating for peace in 1864 would have made the situation then better.

I've believed from the beginning that this war was about the principle that no nation, tyrant, or thugs has the right to torture, maim, rape, murder, or terrorize its citizens. I've beleived from the beginning that there was not only a legal right, but a moral imperative to do so. Legally, Saddam had repeatedly violated the terrms of the 1991 truece. Legally, the United Nations had violated its own charter by refusing to intervene in the genocide in Iraq, Rwanda, and the Balkans. It also flaunted recommendations by commissions it chartered (the Canadian commission of 2001, for example). There was also ample moral justification. Even Geogre Bush's detractors have to admit that Saddam and his regime were evil.

I can't say that we'll win in Iraq. The groundswell now is for retreat. I can say that if the military is allowed to prosecute the war to a victorious conclusion, we will.

Osama was right?
Osama is correct in thinking that Americans are weak and do not have the will to fight a prolonged war. Democrats get endorsements by freedom fighters fighting Americans. The Iranian President recites Democrat talking points in his own speeches and Americans elect them. I know now that the American people are against the war. It is only a matter of time before they pull out of Iraq and victory can be claimed. All that is left to do is maintain the slow bleed on the Americans enough so as to keep in the news fueling our political allies but not enough to threaten Americans at home. Eventually they will pull back giving us room to breath, regroup and rearm. As with Vietnam, Americans do not have the stomach for the blood letting required to finish the job.
We then correct Osama one error, being raised in America I know what will happen next. Once no longer engaged in the war and no longer feeling threaten they will lose focus on us and start feeling safe, defenses will become lax. Thinking those thing only happen over there. Capable of only short term thinking and having even shorter memories the opening will reappear. This combined with time will allow the next blow on America to be the killing blow whether its nuclear, chemical or bio will not matter as long as it happens in several cities at once. Allah be praised it will happen, all is needed is time and room to maneuver, provided by a few well placed politicians.

The Left
Vietnam is a classic example of self-fulfilling prophesy, that is, predicting defeat until the prediction became the cause of defeat. The Lefty loons and their brethren in the MSM would very much like to see it happen in Iraq. Then they can gather around the martinis and congratulate themselves on their maginficent prescience and deeply caring ways.

I always wonder why they so hate and despise this country, and why they all seem so comfortable with socialist principles rather than democratic ones. Is it a disease perpetuated by journalism schools, some slightly more sophisticated version of Mother Earth News/commune/let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya infantile idealism? Or is it just basic stupidity?

Liberals hate the military
The libs have tried everything to make Bush look bad. The problem is that for those of us who have memories, we know that Liberals hate the military. "Support our Troops" so they can die is the mantra of the Left in this country.

My son is a Marine. He is going to Iraq in March. He is looking forward to it. The only thing he says about Marine sentiments is that "we will lose the war if the Democrats have their way."

He tells me that even Democrats that he serves with believe that this war must be won. Personally, I don't think they'll be Democrat for long. How can a military person remain in a party that wants him or her dead?

And regarding BigBelly's contention: I have said for some time that everytime those terrorists hit the street for a funeral, we should bomb the hell out of them. After all, the Dems want us to treat the terrorists like criminals, so let's kill them when they are all in one place.

Oh, and when CBS is doing an interview with a Terrorist Leader, NUKE 'EM. One less CBS correspondent won't be missed.

Ed
Kudos to your son.

If it wasn't for the kids coming from us right-wingers, we'd be screwed! Although I am heartened by seeing kids coming from leftist moonbat parents who reject their anti-USA, anti-military stance and enlist.

My buddy's son just went into the AF Academy, my daugther is working towards that goal, and my son wants to go to the Naval Academy to be a Marine Officer.

Life is GOOD!

GOODMAN,
"Most people who (1) knew anything about fighting, or (2) knew anything about Iraq, thought something like this would happen."

That is nonsense! You and the limp wristed press thought we were going to be in a street to street bloodbath that couldnt possibly be won.

Not many americans know much about military fighting or iraq.

We toppled sadaam with ease, we defeated and continue to defeat any op-forces with ease. Every operation we undertake the military is winning, we are winning. 3000 dead is nothing, 1000 iraqis could die daily, it still doesnt mean we are losing. It just means people are dying.

You can not prove a negative about the presses carping, and how much that is contributing to everything from world opinion, to the moral of the troops in the long run.

But you can prove a positive, and the positive effects of negative press (for the good guys), is evident in the bad guys captured documents, and tactics of slaughtering innocent people for media effect. You see it everyday.

Example, on CNN the morning of sadaams hanging there were DOZENS of sunni protesters in the street. DOZENS? and of course it was a real tight shot to make sure the screen was filled.

That is enough proof for me, I am sure there are hundreds of other examples.

11h

crawfish
Thanks for pointing out that Saddam violated MULTIPLE provisions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement and UN accords. Even war supporters tend to forget this, I presume because they would then be obligated to explain these accords to idiots like Red Tooth. Inspectors and US troops both found hardware components and weapon parts that Saddam was not supposed to be in possession of, such as ballistic missiles that exceeded a UN-set operating range.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2756987.stm

The excessive missile range was confirmed in 2002, whereupon Saddam "promised" to destroy the missiles.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040610-103512-5542r.htm


The New Socialism
Neo-socialists (like Red Tooth et al) pontificate at great length how evil the USA is ("killing Iraqis" and "just to kill Iraqis because we have the power to kill Iraqis") and demanding our troops leave immediately.

When the premise for the argument is so blatantly erroneous (that the USA is in Iraq just to kill Iraqis), there can be no rationale debate.

Red Tooth et al are whiners who literally hate America. If we hadn't done anything after 911, the Red Tooth socialists would be complaining about THAT.

It's not about the war. It's about changing this country to an autocratic totalitarian state (with Red Tooth et al in charge, of course).

Red Tooth is the REAL enemy. He and his ilk love the idea of America losing this war. If he was in charge, he'd pull our troops, raise our taxes and give the money to the terrorists, and the North Koreans and all the other bad guys around the world.

The solution to the problem of terrorism is, according to Red Tooth, danegeld.


Law and order is the key
Dr. Sowell is absolutely correct as usual. No country can ever thrive unless it's citizens agree to a common set of laws and values. Look at Mexico and Russia? On paper they should be prosperous and successful, yet their governments are corrupt from top to bottom, creating an atmosphere where their people can only survive by being corrupt also.

If the majority of a population has no tradition of honesty, integrity or a common vision, they'll descend into chaos like we see in Iraq. Fortunately in this country, those who have none of these values are a minority of loud mouthed liberals, but their strength is growing for the same reason radicals are in the Middle East. They have captured the propaganda machine and pump out a steady diet of half-truths, innuendo and contrived outrage, which is persuasive to so many who aren't really paying attention.

We are in a fight for our very lives, in Iraq and the rest of the world where we confront Islamofacism, and here at home with the FAR LEFT. If Dennis the Menace Kucinich gets his way and re-institutes the so-called "Fairness Doctrine," we will lose TH and the entire conservative blogisphere, plus talk radio, which so effectively counters the Marxist/Socialist bias and duplicity of the left and MSM.

Once they get rid of the 1st amendment, they'll be full speed ahead on the 2nd, the 4th and so on. Like the jihadists, liberals must be utterly defeated because their plan for our nation is just as oppressive and destructive as if it were sharia law. They'll bring about the end of the greatest country on God's green earth.

roadmaster
I have that story on Commie Kucinich on my blog.

Kucinich is a pusbag.

All Hail al-Sadar
As a proponent of the death penalty, execution should be in the quickest manner with a certain degree of state dignity. Here we are engaged in semantics, the means of execution not the substance. Which is why can't the government of Prime Minister Malarky do anything right? The bunglers can't even control what should be a tightly controlled government operation. The repeated displays of incompetence only fuel the fires that will soon topple that government to be replaced by a popularly elected government of theocratic al-Sadar. So much for spreading democracy, remember that selling point?

DON
I believe nearly, everything you posted was WRONG! You think you know the iraqi's wanted us gone after the election. There are countless interviews with iraqis saying NO! dont go yet. Maybe a vet will back you up on the paycheck thing (anyone?), but heresay on the worthless rice might be tough. I do agree howevr that if we are going to say the elections were legit, it is hard to dictate to it.

If the government is giving aid and comfort to iran however, and waiting until we leave to become another islamic state, we should, and do, have something to say about it. It is not unreasonable to ask maliki not to let iranian direct aid kill american soldiers.

11h

GAY,
" be replaced by a popularly elected government of theocratic al-Sadar".

What do you think maliki is? Geez! pay attention.

11h

is it worth it to respond to liberals?
I keep reading some of the asinine responses from Red Tooth, DonaldD, and I'm thinking, are these people really that ignorant, or are they trying to be funny and pull our leg, a la Loyal Democrat? As far as satire goes, its pretty lousy, so I'm inclined to think the former.

Rationally discussing events with these people is nearly impossibly, since they can't seem to wrap their feeble minds around anything more complicated than the tired mantra "Bush lied, people died." Heaven forbid you ask them to prove where and how the President lied, or even articulate precisely what a lie is without revising its meaning.

I can only assume that such people are a result of the coddling effect of socialist government (no wonder they favor it) which permits them to live in their hallucinated unreality, and not just survive, but thrive on the public dole without forming the intellectual maturity and responsibility necessary to a free and industrious society. They figure themselves to be brilliant based not on their logic but their ideals and emotions - Thomas Sowell says it best: “The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.”

Donaldd
Where was Doc Sowell?

Probably not touring the Soviet Union like Velcro-Fly Clinton was and dodging the draft as well.

But it was okay for Bubba to dispatch troops to Haiti to tell them how to do business.

It was okay for Bubba to dispatch troops to Bosnia/Kosovo in order to tell the Serbs how to act. Europe being unable to police their own backyard.

It was okay for the draft-dodger to send troops to the Gulf to support UN resolutions and tell Saddam how to act.

It was okay for the serial rapist to dispatch troops to East Timor to tell the Indonesians to stop raping and killing.

See the hypocracy of the left? It's OKAY for a Dhimmicrat to do things but not for the GOP to do them.

I wonder what your stance is on Red Nancy's Minimum Wage scam. You know the one that suddenly fell OUT of the news? It's on my blog if you have the courage to read it.

big deal
Adolph Hitler stocked up on sarin gas. Big deal! He's probably just using it as a pesticide on the Bavarian hops fields.

Answer this: Iran is sitting on huge oil fields. In fact, their economy is heavily dependent on the black stuff that you insist George Bush wants to kill them all for. They possess 10% of the world's reserves and export 3 million barrels per day. Oil will be cheaper than other sources of energy in both the short run and predictably the long run. With such a massive resource of potential energy, what does Iran need nuclear power for?

I don't expect you to have a response to this, so go ahead and stick your head back in the sand.

Donaldd
Ah, so Bush was correct in Iraq by implementing the War Powers ACt of 73? Thanks for confirming that.

IMHO, I find it humorous that liberals vote YES to fund the Iraq War yet put it off on Bush like it's all his doing. Hillary, Hanoi John, etc, etc ALL VOTED for Iraq. Soooooooo, shouldn't they also shoulder some of the onus?

Funny, liberals like yourself called Vietnam Nixon's War when JFK expanded it and LBJ lost it.

donaldd
Absolutely. So the world oil market sees a spike in price due to increased Iranian consumption. To use your terminology, BIG DEAL. Oil cannot be refined and implemented as a nuclear warhead.

Besides, uranium is distributed naturally worldwide. Canada exports uranium in volume, so its not like access to uranium stocks is limited or restricted. And if Iran is selling uranium, they are not using it.

Of course, the right answer to my question is that the world market for uranium is considerably smaller (thanks to nuclear restrictions in the namby-pamby developed world) while the oil market is lucrative. It would make sense, pending you have equivalent stockpiles of each resource, to sell the one that commands a higher price and use the one that commands a lower price, granted that uranium can be converted to a usable fuel for the same price or less as oil.

Whether or not uranium is cost effective as a source of energy for Iran should help guage their intentions, vile or benign.

Donaldd
"Instead of a missile range of 74 miles, 100K, they reached 120K. Big deal!
There was less than a hundred of them."

Again logic escapes! Do you not ever ask why they wanted longer and longer ranged missiles. Were would you draw the line? After they could reach Europe or the U.S. Kind of closing the barn door after the animals escape is it not?

"Were they firing them at the United States?"

So we always must wait for the explosions to occur in our cities first?

"The Iraqi government was destroying them under UN supervision. That is; until Bush drove the UN inspectors out of Iraq and invaded."

The U.N. was complaining about Iraqi interference with inspectors as well as saying that there was possibly WMDs along with the French, Russians and Clintons. None of which can be called strong U.S. allies. The U.N. never stated that Iraq was fully complying with the U.N. inspection teams in fact they said the opposite.

"Five parts buried in a man's flower garden which could be used to build one centrafuge to process uranium. Iran has 3000+ centrafuges, and hasn't produced weapons grade material. Gadafy also had 3-5000 centrafuges and didn't make weapons grade material either. BIG DEAL!"

Have you stopped long enough to consider that this is only what we found? Why did Gadafy stop? Thats a pretty obvious isnt it. It wasnt because we promised to give him a big wet kiss if he did the righ thing was it. If it wasnt for our action Gadafy may have a nuke now. (thanks for reinforcing our argument).

sarin
So you would trust him with it?

He did use hydrogen cyanide in the gas chambers.

Geez...

Surprises
The first line of this article pretty much sums up the problem of war. The whole object of war planning is to surprise the enemy. Our enemies are doing a good job of that. It is our job to try to take away their surprises with intelligence gathered in any way that we can.
Our MSM does not allow us to do that. in our war against terrorism, think of all the surprises that they have ruined for us just this year. We should warn the MSM that traitorous behavior will no longer be tolerated - and then prosecuted to the "full extent of the law".

Donaldd
Torture? Panties on your grape is torture?

I'm suing my wife, that's THAT!

BTW, check my blog for an article written by a person who has SEEN Gitmo, not some NY Times propagandist writing BS about it.

The article appeared on Early Bird and was from the NY Post.

IMHO, I'd drape Rosie O'Donnell's massive drawers over their heads if it saved ONE American.

What WILL you and Kimmy do when Bush is gone in 09? Never mind, you'll have Romney and Condi to mewl about.

war powers act
The War Powers Act of 1973 has been considered unconstitutional by I believe each Presidential administration since its inception. Nixon vetoed it but was over-ridden by a 2/3rds vote of both chambers. Its constitutionality has never been tried in the Supreme Ct.

For all you liberals who think
Bush just made everything up and we're in violation. Of course putting liberals and think in the same sentence is an oxymoron.


"Iraq is a long way from Ohio, but what happens in there matters a great deal here. For the risk of the leaders of a rogue state such as Iraq to use nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons againstus or our allies is the greatest threat we face. And, it is a threat we must and will stand firm."
Madeline Albright, 2/18, 1998

"He (Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of WMD and some day, some how, I am certain he will use that arsenal again as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, 2/18/1998

"I can support the president. I can support an action against Saddam Hussein because it's in the long term interest of our national security."
Hillary Clinton, 9/15/2002

"We know Saddam continues to gain access to additional capability including nuclear capability. There is a real debate to the matter of how far off that is, whether it's a matter of years or a matter of less than that. So there's much we don't know."
Joe Biden, 11/4/2002

"Saddam Hussein in effect has thumbed his nose at the world community and I think the president has approached this in the right fashion."
Harry Reid, 9/18/2002

"I support the president's efforts to disarm Saddam Hussein. I think he (Bush) was right on in his speech tonight. The lessons we learned after 9/11 were that we can't wait to be attacked again, particularly when it involves weapons of mass of destruction, so regrettably Saddam has not done the right thing, which is to disarm and we're left with no alternative but to take action."
Evan Bayh, 2/17/2003

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 20

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam’s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq’s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration’s policy towards Iraq, I don’t think there can be any question about Saddam’s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002









Speech by Bush, vote for war "When I made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein from power, Congress approved it with strong bipartisan support.

While it is perfectly legitimate to criticize my decision on the conduct of the war, it is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began.

These critics are fully aware that a bipartisan senate investigation found no evidence of political pressure to change the intelligence community's judgment related to Iraq's weapons programs.

As our troops fight a ruthless energy determined to destroy our way of life, the deserve to know that their elected leaders who voted to send them to war continue to stand behind them."

G.W.Bush 11/11/2005




RedTooth
So, I'm immoral and uncivilized?

Of course you pay no attention to any facts about what is going on in Iraq. What we needed to do for one thing is bomb the he11 out of al Sadr several years ago when he was holed up in a mosque. He is one of the main trouble makers. But, due to the PC war we've been fighting there, we wouldn't touch that damn mosque.

There are Iranian guard members in Iraq causing all kinds of trouble. BigBelly didn't mean to just bomb indiscriminately. You just like to read into what he said to make your erroneous liberal point.

In WWII, we bombed cathedrals. Did you know that?
I suppose that was immoral and uncivilized too.
War is he11. Get used to it. The war on Islamic fanatics has just begun. We've got a long way to go. And, if we keep fighting like we're on egg shells we'll be fighting forever.

What you need to do is decide if you want to be killed. It's either them or us. Make your choice.

Liberals Suck
It is a real shame that the party that I grew up with has been taken over by pot-heads and their socialist allies.

There was a day not long ago that Dems and Repubs were the same. You could listen to a party caucus from either party and you couldn't tell who was whom.

Not anymore. The libs screwed up the Vietnam War and are once again screwing this war into the ground.

I am not amazed that the MSM is just as full of $h-t today as they were in 1968. What surprises me is that they are getting away with it AGAIN.

Dr Sowell as usual is correct about the MSM and this war. And I do believe that the MSM is a bigger threat to our freedoms than the terrorists are.

And here's a bit of news for the MSM media and the socialist, french-wine-drinking liberals: The American military has NEVER lost a battle. The only people that loose wars in America are liberals, pot-heads and MSM pukes.

And those of us who are still in this fight (civ or otherwise) know that the most negative comments comming from our troops is not about winning or loosing...it's about the lies of CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNBC, NY Times, etc.

Let's hear about what's going right in Iraq for a change? The Iraqi economy is booming (no pun intended), there are more new businesses than ever before. Infastructure is in better shape than it ever was under Saddam. What's wrong with this picture? You won't read this stuff in the NY Times. Good news is apparently boring, bad news sells papers. Lies gets a reporter power and air time. Walter Cronkite made a career our of lying about Vietnam. Like he knew more about Vietnam than the men doing the bleeding did.
What a croc!!

Face it: MSM jerkoid libs don't know their rear ends from a hole in the ground. Liberals suck. And I wouldn't pi$$ on them if they were on fire.

Donaldd
Bush is PERSONALLY slapping panties on their gourds?

That's so mean.

donald
Wow. Torture! Sleep deprivation is a torture all parents are able to sustain with newborns.

Peppermint
You da MAN!!! I heard the SMACK! from Chicago.

donaldd
Conversely, until the Supreme Court rules that the war in Iraq is unconstitutional or illegal, its legal, so get over it.

Actually, this is not true. There is no legal decision or law (only precedent) that makes the Supreme Court the sole arbiter of the constitutionality of Federal legislation or executive action. As both Congress and the President takes oaths to defend the Constitution, they are equally charged. Furthermore, before the States were hamstrung by the excesses of the Federal government, many States took it upon themselves to defend the letter of the Constitution and declare certain Federal provisions as unconstitutional, null and void (Kentucky and Virginia, 1798).

What else you got? I see you never went after the other main points, just the blurbs and asides.

patriot
Agreed!!
I hate it when I see liberals braying about this war and how we're losing. Yeah, we'll lose the same way we did "not" lose in Vietnam by the MSM and liberal as@holes persistently telling everyone we're losing.

If only we could bomb all the liberals out of this country, we'd have no problem fighting a war anywhere.

I wonder what they will do the next time we're hit with something bigger than 9/11. Probably scream that we lost the war in Iraq and now we're getting hit due to that loss.

It doesn't take much imagination to predict what they will come up with next.

Korea as a laboratory
The question is not whether Iraq is ready for democracy. Liberty is transformative. Liberty is a practical idea that pitilessly uses the strife between factions, against the fulcrum of their mutual interests, to create progress and balance. The goal of liberating the Middle East is to create a society there where the people there are of some use to the rest of the world, and thus also derive some interest in peaceful dealings with the rest of the world.

Right now, the most valuable thing in the Middle East is oil, and that would be just as valuable without the Arabs. With liberation, the Arabs will (among themselves at first) become a society where reward comes mutually to those who are of mutual value. This will transform Arab society from uselessness into utility. The are will be valuable because of the people themselves, and not just the oil.

Consider Korea. The people of North and South Korea have a similar cultural history. The thing that makes the South productive and the North a threat is that the South was liberated, while we adopted a strategy of appeasement and containment in the North. When the nation was split, the South was no more ready for democracy than was the North.

As we can see, while the people of South Korea became a productive asset to the world, the policy of containment in the North led to its remaining an increasing threat to the world, requiring an endless committment of US troops.

The North Korean model is what the Democrats, in hindsight, think would have been better for Iraq. A dictatorship contained by an endless committment of US military resources. They are wrong. The liberation of Iraq is not a mistake, it is a necessessity. Iraq is strategic geographically. If Iraq can stabilize under a free government, it will undermine the oppression in the other nations in the region. It will particularly serve to help undermine the totalitarian regime in Iran. It is the beginning of the transformation of the Arab world into something of some value.

Unfortunately, the people of the US have shown, in the last election, that we have no confidence in the transforming power of liberty and no confidence in our military to suppress violent assaults on the fledgling democracy. We have proved that al Qaeda was right about us all along--all we care about is super-sizing our Big Macs, we do not care about justice if there is any cost at all.

In the long run, this course, of giving the unjust free rein, will prove far more costly. It wasn't costly for Spain, or for most of the rest of mainland Europe, because the US stood up where they refused to serve. But if the US refuses to stand up for what is right, there is nobody else. We should be very ashamed of what we did last November.

Donaldd
If you think I care one iota what the UNecessary has to say forget about it. Your argument is moot.

Donaldd
You are forgetting some important facts.
While the UNecessary sanctions were going on most of the UNecessary countries including France were participating in a huge scandal getting goodies from Saddam. There was no way the UNecessary wanted us to go into Iraq and interrupt their little charade.

Like I said before I don't give a rats' azz what the UN says. They're useless, anti-semitic thugs. Do a little reading on the UNecessary and find out for yourself of what it actually consists.

Go on. Keep citing the UNecessary. Tells the rest of us who you stand with.

Speaking of liars
I am fed up with Lefties beating that tired drum.

They are much bigger liars, in fact they are liars on a global scale.

I am, of course, talking about Global Warming.

If you are interesting in talking about this VERY timely subject, stop by my blog and comment on my latest post: "How About That Global Warming?"

oh brother...
Yikes! Thanks for confirming my earlier argument about cowering under the "Bush Lied" dogma.

The UN Security council only has enough sovereign authority as member states are willing to give it. If the US picks and chooses the provisions of the 1991 UN Accords that it desires to enforce, then the UN's only recourse is maybe a strong rebuke. The UN cannot really "authorize" anything, since their limited funding and power is borrowed and their executive arm is composed of nations with their own interests. I won't touch on the high level of corruption of the UN.

Notice that the wording of Sect. 3 says "continuing threat" and not "imminent threat." This choice of words is semantically distinguished. Imminent threat, as you imply, means a direct threat. Continuing threat encompasses a variety of both direct and indirect threats, so long as the threats are presented over a period of time with consistency.

Additionally, Sect 3 says the President may use the armed forces as "he determines to be necessary and appropriate," not the Congress.

Vic
I didn't ask what Republicans would do, did I? I asked if Liberals would be mad. YES, they would. They'd be seething. Nixon resigned in shame for what he'd done, and everyone knew what he did (thank you Washington Post). Clinton's actions are his "Legacy". His misgivings are gently tucked aside by mainstream media. He can do no wrong because Liberals believe his slick stories.

It Walks Like a Duck
Folks - especially the REMFs that support the war - get upset when Iraq is compared to Vietnam - however it is an insurgency - there is no clear plan to accomplish the mission - the general populace hate us and support the insurgents - hit and run tactics are employed - IEDs used - well damn if that don't look like Nam then my feeble old memory is going – Oh it also quacks like a duck - it's a duck - oh by the way the Dems did not lose Vietnam - the South Vietnamese lost Vietnam - after almost a decade of support and five years fighting their war in the field they could not hold - unmotivated and not trained

Donaldd
"Bull Puckey; Read Hans Blix report to the UN Security Council March 7, 2003. The 8th of March 2003 Bush twisted the UN report to support his war agenda."

How many years of inspection did it take before they were kind of start complying with some issues,
4?, 5? and how long did it take your hero Gadafy, Months? and Gadafy had the big program! Smells pretty fishy huh?! Why would it take so long? was it because the inspectors kept getting kicked out? There were NO inspectors in Libya. HMMMM I wonder? And all Blix, even with his obvious agenda, could come up with is they are starting to answer some questions and do something after all those years.

"Do you realize that is all there ever was."

Pretty stupid to hide 5 parts if that’s all there was. Your hero Gadafy didn’t have a problem fessing up his parts. Things that make you go HMMM?

I got some land I'd like to sell ya. Down town Manhattan. Its a good deal, it may not be ground zero next time around.

Goshawk
>That this war in Iraq would have been over a long time ago if the damn politicians and the MSM would get out of the way, and let our military perform as it was designed and trained to do.


First off, the MSM were invited to go along as 'embeds' and the Administration was real happy they we were there as long as they reported 'good news' but when all the news was reported, they became evil

An old army adage is 'if you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail' and that seems to be what your saying..What is the miltiary suppose to do that we arent? Is what we are doing what needs to be done?

could someone tell me
what the 'rules of engagnement' are that are hamstringing our miltary? I hear that phrase tossed about, but no where can I find where these rules are listed.

If we are shot at, we can shoot back...fair enough. Are you saying we should randomly shot people that are non combantants because we dont like the way they look at us? Maybe just men reguardless if they have a weapon or not? Should we destroy towns and villiages to save them? What is it that is really hamstringing our efforts here?

Torture?
I wish we would be as abusive of Moslem fundamentalists as we have been of Christian fundamentalists.

Remember the Waco massacre? 52 days... sleep deprivation, attempted deprivation of food, water, heat and light. Denial of medical attention. SLEEP DEPRIVATION. Desecration of graves. Use of WMDs. The greatest example of abuse of power and violation of citizen rights since the Confederate War, perpetrated against CHRISTIAN fundamentalists who'd harmed no one, threatened no one. Where were these bleeding heart libs with their protests ("RENO lied, CHILDREN DIED!") and legal challenges then? When their beloved sex offender was in office with his fairy-tale cabinet (full of trolls, fairies and an ogre named Reno)? Until liberals demand that Clinton and Reno go to jail for that crime against humanity, they need to shut the heck up about what our military does to our enemies. Their silence on that matter spoke volumes about their real morality and motiviation regarding Iraq and the War on Terror.


jdw
No my friend, you are mistaken.

Waco was OKAY because Clinton and Janet Reno did it.

It doesn't matter that the ATF was facing a budget cut and needed to bosst their "ratings". Anything that the Impeached One does is gospel to the left.

Peppermint
AWESOME!

Now you've got Donaldd sputtering about the US backing Saddam...

BTW, ANYONE who invokes the UN automatically loses ANY credibility with me. I'm STILL waiting for success from an organization where WE PAY 45% of the dues when the d*mn thing has 192 nations in it.

Shouldn't we only pay 1/192 of the total dues?

Peppermint
Your post sums up & refutes all Liberal statements we get here EVERY DAY.
Would you please cut and paste it in each thread until Liberals stop making the same erroneous statements that are refuted EVERY DAY at TH?

Now that Libs are in control I keep searching these threads looking for their plan for VICTORY!
All I see Liberals propose is RETREAT!
It is easy to see why Mahmoud Ahmadinejad considers Liberals his ally.
Liberal collaborators should be real proud of the way they extend the war and cause extra casualties on BOTH SIDES by encouraging the enemy to hold out until Democrats surrender and give them a political victory.
Victory or defeat in Iraq will not end this war for America. Defeat will bring the battlefield to America.
Democrats have the ball now and if they fumble it will be the last time they will ever be trusted with National Security and this will be a long war.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPrint.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200701/CUL20070111d.html

GunnyG
Desert Storm was a UN operation, wasnt it?

MyOpine
BINGO!

On the Vietnam thread, Left Angle wrote this jewel:

"liberals realize that the Iraq War is a waste of time, money and U.S. military lives because it no matter what you accomplish in Iraq it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop another domestic terrorist attack on the U.S."

So, I guess liberals feel that we should just suck it up since we're gonna get attacked again. Why bother fighting it?

Aid and comfort to the enemy
When are we going to tell it like it is. The media and far left are aiding the enemy.

They did it in Vietnam. That is a fact.

Hubris
According to archeologists, about 8,000 years ago, man first "invented" organized warfare. They invented it in Iraq.

These people have been fighting among themselves for over eight thousand years. When Jesus was born, they had been at it for 6,000 years. Whne Moses was born, they had been at it for 4,500 years.

And you people think we're going to be able to make Iraq into a peaceful country...

Alexander couldn't do it. Neither could the Romans. Ditto the Turks.

But we're supposed to be able to change the course of 8,000 years of human history because the President of the United States says, "Stop!"

Have you people ever heard of the word, "Hubris"?

duke
Check my blog. I have a nice timeline on Hanoi Jane and how since NOTHING was done to her, we've slid downhill with traitors eversince.

MyOpine
I paste those quotes every time a lib starts foaming at the mouth about Bush lied, people died. It's getting really old to say the least.

If the libs and dems have their way, we'll be fighting the fanatics right here in the US. Since they don't own guns they'll be in big trouble.

Since they are the ones who promote a decadent society, they'll be the first to get beheaded. Won't that be just hilarious? They speak of their freedom of speech being contained. Wait until they try to use their freedom of speech with the Islamic fascists. Their heads will be lopped off and their lying tongues will still be wagging.

Donaldd
"Saddam for 2 years said they had no WMD."

OHHHH! Well h-e-double toothpicks man! Why didn't you say that earlier. I am such a fool Saddam said they didn't have any... AND FOR 2 YEARS EVEN! Everyone Stop arguing with Donaldd. Saddam told us he didn't have any WMDs. Dang I feel so foolish.

ROFLMAO

GunnyG
>"liberals realize that the Iraq War is a waste of time, money and U.S. military lives because it no matter what you accomplish in Iraq it will do absolutely NOTHING to stop another domestic terrorist attack on the U.S."

No, what this is saying is that Iraq is not a threat. There are a lot worse threats out there, such as Al Queda and Taliban. Those two groups are gaining strength because we are letting OIF sapp our rescources.

There is very little to indicate Iraq was the bogey man Bush made it out to be. Saddam was our ally up to the UN sanctioned military action Desert Storm, and the ISG (survey, not study) group indicated that he wanted to be a regional ally again.

Truth is, OIF has distracted our military to such a degree that now N Korea and Iran can be more robust in their operations. This has made us less safe, not more.

corbett
hubris: exaggerated pride or self-confidence

Well, what I think you've got wrong here is that Bush and Congress declared war on Iraq because everyone thought he had WMD.

Bush is trying to get things out of the chaos that has developed. Is that hubris? I wouldn't call it that. I'd say it's more like either we get things cleaned up or the mess gets worse.

What's your option by the way? What plan have you got? Now, that we're there irregardless whatever the reasons we went in or whether you agree with the war or not, we're there now. So, what would you do?

Donaldd
"What anyone "SUPPOSED" for 10 years prior is of no relevance."

Well of course that makes sense now. If you don't put into a vacuum i.e. nothing happened prior to this date, your argument starts looking pretty silly doesn’t it?

naked pagan
You say to GunnyG:

"Truth is, OIF has distracted our military to such a degree that now N Korea and Iran can be more robust in their operations. This has made us less safe, not more."

Bush and company have N.Korea under control right now.

As far as Iran, on another thread libs are screaming that Bush is preparing to go into Iran by putting an aircraft carrier in there and going after Iranian guards.

So, which way do you libs want it?

Donaldd
Now THERE we are in agreeance. Bush has sucked on the border issue.

It should be shutdown tighter than a girl's college when Bill Clinton is in town!

Donaldd
"If Saddam was lying; Where are those WMD?"

First good question you've come up with today.
Yeah, where are they? Moved is where they are and probably in Syria. Huge trucks were seen by satellite moving into Syria during the 3 months prior to going into Iraq. You know, the 3 months warning that Saddam had before the US struck? Remember that?

Oh, yeah, satellite also saw Russians helping to load those trucks that traveled into Syria.

But, hey, what the he11. They were probably just moving Saddam's sons' huge collection of whips and chains they used to torture and rape women. Or maybe it was Catherine the Great's palace that was being moved. You know that missing artwork after WWII.

naked pagan
How are we less safe now than when Bubba, Carter, and Maddy Halfbright were enabling N Korea?

BTW, I was ON Okinawa when they shot that missile into the Sea of Japan. At that time, the Starts and Stripes (June 1999, the 14th I think) had run a story on how the NKs were vaccinating their troops for smallpox and we were doing NOTHING. I wrote a letter up the chain and got one back from one of Bubba's appointees who poo-poo'd the issue. I still have the letter in my archives at home.

Donaldd
"In March 2003 UN Inspectors using Bush Military "evidence" found as three American inspections sense the invasion have found NO WMD nor active WMD programs in Iraq."

Did you forget about the Inspectors during the Clinton Admin? The ones, I believe, he pulled out because of Iraqi interference of them. Explains why you say everything prior is irrelevant. I guess that hole time nothing was happening in Iraq they couldn’t of been doing anything underhanded because WE ALL KNOW Saddam said they had no WMDs

To Reagan Revolutionary
My comment was not intended to criticize you or your post. I am sorry I was less clear than I should have been with the wording.

naked pagan
So if the US renewed our alliance with Saddam, the liberals would be screaming that the US was complicit with a murderer and tyrant in order to further US policy in the Middle East.

In regards to your earlier remark that Gulf 1 was a UN effort, it was not. It was a US-led coalition that existed independent of but with the blessing of the UN. The UN lacks war power.

Al Qaeda now has a presence in Iraq. I'm not arguing from the premise that resources are definitely finite, but the money and effort Al Qaeda expends in Iraq equates to less they can expend elsewhere. Where before they could engage the West on the battlefields of their own choosing with all their resources against counter-terrorism task forces and homeland security, they've allowed themselves to be drug into a guerilla war in a conventional theater against US military forces. Sure, US occupation might make more "terrorists" but who's to say that these newly minted terrorists (or insurgents, if you like) would be of the same stock that is willing to blow themselves up overseas for the "jihad."

Iran has gotten ballsier because their primary antagonist in the ME, Iraq, is now impotent to counter their actions. Part of the reason Saddam didn't want to show his hand to UN inspectors is because it may well have revealed how militarily weak he was. His grasp on power in the face of the Iranians would be precarious, and he knew he couldn't count on a Western bail-out.

Donaldd
Congress voted on the Iraq war. They voted for it.
What planet have you been living on in the last several years?

Peppermint
Forget it. He's a whacko.

Did you hear that the Afghanis just caught the Taliban spokesman?

"KABUL, Afghanistan - Afghan intelligence agents arrested a purported Taliban spokesman after he crossed into the country from Pakistan, an agency official said Tuesday. Dr. Muhammad Hanif, who often contacted the news media claiming to speak for the hard-line militia, was arrested at the border town of Torkham on Monday, said Sayed Ansari, the spokesman for Afghanistan's intelligence service. Two people traveling with him were also detained."

I'd love to have been there when they brought him in. Look at him and tell him:

"You're in biggggggggggg trouble boy."


Donaldd tsk tsk
"Bush has proven Saddam and the UN Inspectors weren't lying."

We all know Saddam had them just ask the Kurds or the Iranians (is that a big lie too?) or does it fall into the “everything prior is irrelevant” category. Was Saddam so lax or careless with them that he could not provide evidence of there destruction? I think not. I guess we can still rely on “Saddam for 2 years said they had no WMD.” I’ just not getting warm fuzzys there.. sorry

So the accurate question is, as you so elegantly put it. "If Saddam was lying; Where are those WMD?"

GunnyG
No, I hadn't heard about the spokesman being caught.
Good deal.

And, Donaldd, yeah, I've had it with him. He is whacked out. He doesn't even live in the same place we do. Otherwise how could he come up with the stuff he does. Flying around the universe in his bat mobile no doubt.

Peppermint
There are a few nutjobs that I don't engage in convo with. Their absolute lack of logic defies all human understanding.

"Never argue with a liberal. It'll only pizz you off, waste your time, and make the lib dizzy."

jcthomasva
>the liberals would be screaming that the US was complicit with a murderer and tyrant in order to further US policy in the Middle East.

Oh they still say that. Why do you think Saddam got executed before he could testify about US involvment with gassing the Kurds?

> was a UN effort, it was not. It was a US-led coalition that existed independent of but with the blessing of the UN. The UN lacks war power

In that case there never is a UN effort is there?
Unlike OIF, the UN Security Councial did agree to go to war (UN Resolution 678 )

>Al Qaeda now has a presence in Iraq
After we invaded Iraq. From what I heard, its a cell of about 500 people tht keep us runnign around sand dunes. With the average attacks on use forces maintaining about 80 or so, it looks like they are fighting us on their terms rather than the other way around.

>Iran has gotten ballsier because their primary antagonist in the ME, Iraq, is now impotent to counter their actions

As a direct result of OIF..great plan. We get rid of our enemies enemy.

To Red Tooth
What are we doing in Iraq?

Preventing a sovereign nation from sponsoring and abetting terrorism, which is also the reason we are in Afghanistan. This is, further, the reason we can't just leave when it gets inconvenient to establish the law and order that must precede working democracy. The day we leave without finishing the job, both Iraq and Afghanistan will revert to tyrannies that sponsor terrorism.

Your question is not stupid, but your tacit assumption that there's no good answer is. We have a valid national security reason to be in Iraq, and to stay there until Iraq is stable, self-sustaining, able to withstand the various depredations of Iran on its borders and people, and non-inclined to export terrorism. Bush believes that establishing a representative national government in Iraq is the way to do that.

If anyone really believes that we can just leave Iraq, and the Middle East, to its own devices, with no consequences to America -- well, that, I'm afraid, is irrational.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...
I had a couple of posts that disappeared off of TH, and all I was doing was trying to shamelessly plug my latest post in my blog.

And it is so timely too!

Donaldd
Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114

Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.

Yea: 77 Nay: 23

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

"authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq."

WHAT do you think THAT means? Shooting a few cruise missiles at empty warehouse like The Impeached One did in Sudan? BTW, what WAS that all about. Isn't Sudan a sovereign nation and wasn't that an act of war?

GunnyG- like teaching a pig to sing
GunnyG writes: Tuesday, January, 16, 2007 1:37 PM
Peppermint
There are a few nutjobs that I don't engage in convo with. Their absolute lack of logic defies all human understanding.

"Never argue with a liberal. It'll only pizz you off, waste your time, and make the lib dizzy."
*************************************

Was it Mark Twain that said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Very much like arguing with a liberal.

Naked pagan
Yes the MSM were invited to go along. Because we expected them to print the truth. A big mistake! All they did is lie and distort information to prop up the Liberal agenda! And, perhaps even worse, they used the fact that "They were there" as credence to their lies!

You ask.. "What is the military suppose to do that we aren't?" Simple! Let them do their job! The military is designed to kill the enemy and break things! And ours is the very best in the world at that job. The Liberal politicians hinder them at every turn with they're PC "rules of engagement BS!"

Napoleon often used a Chess board to work out winning strategies for his many victories. He used his troops properly. Our idiotic Liberal politicians use our soldiers as Chessmen, Pawns to be sacrificed on a world board of political gamesmanship. If the Liberal politicians think they're so right, then we ought to bring our fine military home from all over the world and let the politicians and so-called diplomat's fight it out!

But you can't do that can you. Because the enemy doesn't play fair! And keeps using they're armies to attack us! Now the Liberal politicians use our military to protect their raunchy butts as they try an Appease and play nice with a deadly enemy! How very stupid!

What the politicians are doing could be compared to taking a winning Football team, tie one hand behind their backs and shackle their ankles together. Then throw them in the game! Great strategy eh!?

But what really tee's Liberals off! Is that even with the shackles, our guys beat any force they come across!

Gunny G
>How are we less safe now than when Bubba, Carter, and Maddy Halfbright were enabling N Korea?

1- Forces are tied up in two theathers. Even with NATOs help in OEF, we are unable to maintain control in either one.

2-Equipment is being used up and not being replaced. Same goes for troops. Recuritment goals are being met because the goals have been lowered.

3-IF Saddam did indeed have the WMD stockpiles, we managed to scatter them to the four winds, and have no idea who has them now.

4-As katrina illustrated, rescources are being sucked from other commitments and we would be in a tight spot should a natural or man made disaser occur.

5-Because we are busy running around sand dunes, other organizations are able to exert their influence unchecked.



We Libs Were Right...Sorry
Most of the comments to this article remind me of that old saying, "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see." You people really are the "true believers." Here's just a sampling of people and groups who don't support most of the positions described in these comments:

(1) the American electorate (70% opposed to a troop escalation or "surge"),
(2) the Iraqi government and people,
(3) the vast majority of the world's governments and people, including allies like the U.K. (which is planning to decrease its troop presence in Iraq over this year),
(4) the U.S. Congress, including Republicans like Chuck Hagel, Bob Smith, Susan Collins, etc;
(5) the bipartisan Iraq Study Group,
(6) conservative journalists like Thomas Friedman, David Brooks, George Will and even Peggy Noonan(!),
(7) the U.S. military and military press, including the Joint Chiefs, the Military Times, and even General Abizaid, and
(8) majority of Christian Evangelicals are now opposed to Bush's Iraq plan according to a recent poll.

Yet, I guess they're ALL WRONG??! There are now a confirmed 3,022 U.S. military deaths, over 25,000 injuries, possibly 650,000 Iraqi deaths, over 1.6 million Iraqi refugees, a newly-empowered (and likely soon to be nuclear-armed) Iran, up to $380 billion wasted, the loss of U.S. international prestige in the eyes of our friends all over the world, a quagmire (or "fiasco," or "biggest foreign policy blunder" in the history of our country) and coming catastrophe of possibly biblical proportions in Iraq (and likely the whole Middle East) whether our troops stay or leave, yet you still support this war! Wake up people!

It is truly unfortunate that so many of you are still so content to live a life steeped in lies and distortions. The truth is that we libs were right all along about this dumb war...Sorry.

BigCityLib

Goshawk
>Yes the MSM were invited to go along. Because we expected them to print the truth

The truth was there were no WMD ready to be deployed in 45 min, and we were not treated as liberators.

>The military is designed to kill the enemy and break things!

And ever problem is a nail...maybe this isnt a job for the miltary then. Truth is, engineering and crowd control are historically military missions as well.

>Our idiotic Liberal politicians use our soldiers as Chessmen, Pawns to be sacrificed on a world board of political gamesmanship.

Im sorry, this OIF/OEF thing has been a Conservative operation from 'GO'. The democrates have only just now come into any power, thanks to the republicans mis management or things, and havent had a change to exert any influence.

Republicans have only themselves to blame here.

So what ROE do you want to change? I read them thru, just for this post, and they are in compliance with international law.

WMD Lies
Folks on BOTH sides need to gather up the UN Documents from the inspection teams. It tookme 6-8 hours of research into this mess to figure out that the public news releases from the UN Inspection teams DIRECTLY contradicted their quarterly report notes.

In their quarterly reports they noted and listed at least 8 seperate areas where Hussein had restarted weapones programmes, where Hussein had re-built "destroyed under UN SUpervision" factories, where Hussein had re-stocked "Destroyed" supplies. They complain many times that the so-called "cooperation" given them by Hussein was useless because the information given them was old, outdated and already on file....

In their quarterly reports AFTER our invasion they found missile engines that were "destroyed" had actually been sold as scrap after the invasion..but intact. Not in a destroyed state...

In their reports they annotate and enumerate all of the violations of the various UN resolutions, and then they release to the media the LIE that there were no ongoing weapon programs, that there had not been an rebuilding of weapons building technology, and that Hussein was being 100% truthful with them and cooperating.

Their OWN DOCUMENTS PUT THE LIE TO THEIR STATEMENTS TO THE MEDIA.

This from the following document

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/documents/quarterly_reports/s-2003-232.pdf


"8. The part that covers biological weapons is, in UNMOVIC’s assessment,
essentially a reorganized version of a previous declaration provided by Iraq to the
United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) in September 1997. In the
chemical weapons area, the basis of the current declaration was a declaration
submitted by Iraq in 1996 with subsequent updates and explanations. In the missile
field, the declaration follows the same format, and has largely the same content as
Iraq’s 1996 missile declaration and updates.
"

Some cooperation....

from the same report

"33. The experts also reviewed the capabilities of casting chambers at the Al
Mamoun facility. These had previously been destroyed under UNSCOM supervision
since they were intended for use in the production of the proscribed Badr-2000
missile, but had subsequently been refurbished by Iraq. The experts concluded that
these reconstituted chambers could still be used to produce motors for missiles
capable of ranges significantly greater than 150 kilometres. Accordingly, these
chambers remain proscribed.
"


But nooooooo, Hussein was in complete compliance...

WMD Lies are lies told not by the president or any of themembers of congress before the vote to send military into Iraq. The WMD lies have been created AFTERWARDS because politicians know that MOST people are not willing to do their homework.

The above is only the tip of hte iceberg. There is so much incriminating evidence in the UN reports that it is obvious to anyone who takes the time to RESEARCH FOR THEMSELVES instead of parroting the party line, that WMDs were an isseu. WMDs WERE present. WMD programs WERE ongoing. WMD Programs were NOT stopped as required. WMDs (or equipment to make them) which were destroyed had been rebuilt.

But Hussein was in full compliance...

Whatever...

The absolute arrogance of the UN to think that people would be so stupid as to not research the backup for their press releases is amazing. What's sad is that in many cases their evaluation of the people in this world and their laziness was pretty much spot on....

How many of you have ever tried to research WMDs for yourself? Or was this issue decided for you by the DNC, RNC or CNN?

Donald
I’ve just finished a war conference with the Democrats. Contrary to popular opinion, they do have a plan.

Generals Kennedy, Kerry, Kucinich, etc. have issued THEIR new orders and they are --- “Attent-hut, About face, ----CHARGE!!! They guarantee the war will be won by the time we reach the water’s edge. They is a gona drive them rug makers into the sea.

slug
Good work. I came across reports of inspectors finding component technologies for ballistic missiles while researching the 1991 UN accords a couple years ago. The accords are pretty explicit in denying Iraq even dual use technologies (those technologies that permit both civilian and military applications). Unfortunately, these reports are not easily googled and the media has been less than vigilant in airing these reports. Its sad that the Bush administration abandoned this justification simply because they didn't find a warehouse full of Scuds ready for firing, a real photo-opportunity WMD.

Whenever you turn up some factual evidence about WMDs, you always have some twit come along and try to disparage it, like claiming its irrelevant because the missile's effective range only exceeded the accord limit by 20 km or so.

On another note, I want to say this about international "law": IT IS NOT ABSOLUTE. THE U.N. DOES NOT HAVE ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY. U.N. ACCORDS DO NOT HAVE THE WEIGHT OR POWER OR FORCE OF LAW. UN mandates are only enforced when a sovereign nation with a surplus of international power can enforce those provisions of the UN "suggestions" which overlap their own national foreign policy and security goals. Why do you think the UN has been powerless in Somalia? Because they lack authority. Only now, when the goals of the UN overlap with the national security goal of Ethiopia is the UN supported government installed in power and the Muslim militias evicted. Why is the UN powerless in Sudan? Because they lack authority. Currently, no nation identifies stopping the genocide as a primary aim of its security or foreign policy. If they did, there would be a UN-supported intervention, but not a UN intervention.

Slug...You're Right, The World Is Wrong
So Slug,

It seems that the following groups were wrong about WMD not being found in Iraq and having been destroyed by Saddam's regime years before our invasion:

(1) the Bush Administration (which spent several million dollars and used dozens of much needed human and technical resources to discover WMD to try to avoid the utter embarrasment that followed),

(2) Bush II himself who, as I recall, explicitly stated something like, "There were no WMD in Iraq",

(3) the left-wing, mainstream, and right-wing media, who concurred with Bush II that there were no WMD,

(4) Scott Ritter, former UN Weapons Inspector, who virtually shouted to the world that there were no WMD before we even attacked Iraq,

(5) Hans Blix, and the UN Weapons Inspection team of 2002-2003, which found no WMD before Bush II forced them to leave so that he could attack Iraq (a country that has NEVER attacked the U.S., was not an imminent threat to the U.S. and was not a forseeable future threat to the U.S - EVEN WITH WMD); and

(6) virtually everyone else in the rest of the world from the people and governments of Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

No they're all wrong and you're right!

More distortions and lies from those who prove that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

BigCityLib

bigcitylib
Arguments are not won because an apparent majority believes as you do.

I'm glad that your belief that you were right makes you so happy, in spite of your prediction of the "coming catastrophe of biblical proportions." Nice.


BigCityLib
You would be insightful, if you weren't so smug. Oh, and wrong. I suppose you didn't even bother scanning the UN report Slug provided. If you did, you would have read about the UN objections to Scud missiles with excessive ranges. But I guess thats irrelevant.

Take a look at this paragraph from page 12:
"It has not yet proved possible to obtain interviews with Iraqi scientists,
managers or others believed to have knowledge relevant to the disarmament tasks in
circumstances that give satisfactory credibility. The Iraqi side reports that it
encourages interviewees to accept such interviews, but the reality is that, so far, no
persons not nominated by the Iraqi side have been willing to be interviewed without
a tape recorder running or an Iraqi witness present."

I wonder why that is? Could it be fear and intimidation on behalf of the Saddam government? Why would scientists agree only to taped interviews? A taped interview or witness would provide Saddam a record of what was said, so he could punish any scientist who provided incriminating information.

The irony of your vapid remarks is that you would on one hand argue that we can't trust what one (our own) government says, but on the other hand we can trust another (Saddam's), as well as trusting a bumbling, incompetent assortment of international nutcases and dictators that comprise the UN.

bigcitylib
You seem to have been duped by MSM.
This will give you a clue of how much you can trust MSM
http://www.mrc.org/archive/realitycheck/welcome.asp

rd
Arguments are also not won because an obvious, not "apparent" minority wishes hard for lies and distortions to be the truth.

I'm not "happy" in my beliefs, and actually rather saddened that we libs were so right and you cons were so wrong.

Notice I predicted a "possibly coming catastrophe of biblical proportions." Arguably, we've already had such a catastrophe. Maybe you don't consider the following to be such a catastrophe:

"a confirmed 3,022 U.S. military deaths, over 25,000 injuries, possibly 650,000 Iraqi deaths, over 1.6 million Iraqi refugees, a newly-empowered (and likely soon to be nuclear-armed) Iran, up to $380 billion wasted, the loss of U.S. international prestige in the eyes of our friends all over the world, a quagmire (or "fiasco," or "biggest foreign policy blunder" in the history of our country) ". I do.

We may disagree. I may be wrong. Oops, there goes my wacky liberal seeing both sides of an issue again...Sorry. But, why am I not reading in these comments any acknowledgment that you cons may be wrong as well (and in fact have been proven wrong time and time again)?

Just goes to show that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

BigCityLib

To Mountain Rose
I think that quote belongs to Robert A. Heinlein.

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/never_try_to_teach_a_pig_to_sing-it_wastes_your/218581.html

Here is another Heinlein quote which may be applicable today.

Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

BigCityLoser
Nice job avoiding the meat of an issue. Knucklehead. Why don't you go to Iran and try to give President Ahmgonnaneedajob a big kiss? What, can't respond to actual evidence documented in a UN report?

I've been following this board all day (too much I admit) but evidently I've been touching some liberal nerves, and when I ask one of you twits to respond to some evidence, I get no takers. Thats why liberals have become synonymous with wimps. I guess its easier to throw around figures (and some wishfully inflated figures) than it is to put facts and figures in their proper context.

Possibly 650,000 Iraqi civilian deaths, please...

Here is a website that shares your ideology, and whose factual information is somewhat reputable:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

Even that rag the Lancet that just sops with liberal snot reported 100,000 civilian deaths in 2004. And its research and sample of study was found to be faulty. Ex: "Excuse me Mr. Mohammed, how many people do you know who died?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

Saddam said so
I don’t know what all the argument is over Saddam said he didn't have any WMDs. What else do you need! After using nerve on the Kurds and blister on the Iranians he got rid of them. PROOF! we don't need any stinking PROOF! His word is good enough for me so it should be good enough for you.

All those people Saddam was giving kick backs to in the U.N. France and Russia etc... They wouldn't lie they love us and want only the best for us.

Now everyone in the world hates us and it make me feel sad :-( Can't we all just get along. I mean don't we all want to be Mister POPULAR! Just like in High School, everyone can love us and vote us the most popular in the class :-) and isn't that the most important thing in the world.

bigcitylib
1. It was you that tried to claim legitimacy for your argument by listing all of the people that agreed with you, not me.

2. You claim that you predicted a "possibly coming catastrophe of biblical proportions."
What you actually predicted was "a coming catastrophe of possibly biblical proportions," (copied and pasted from your previous post). I know they appear very similar, but the location of "possibly" completely changes the meaning of the phrase.

naked pagan
I can see by your response that you have no intention of trying to reason or accept anything but your own Liberal opinion. Just distort facts to suit the Liberal mantra.

As for your question...."So what rules of engagement would I change?" I could explain in detail but wont waste my time. Your question kind of reminds me of that old saying when a person is wondering about the price of an expensive car. "If you have to ASK! You can't afford it!"

The same hold true with your question. If you have to ask what's wrong! The answers will not change a thing in your mind.

To BigCityLib
I was going to stay out of this one but I just can’t stand to see this cr*p over and over.

BigCityLib writes:

Slug...You're Right, The World Is Wrong

So Slug,

It seems that the following groups were wrong about WMD not being found in Iraq and having been destroyed by Saddam's regime years before our invasion:

(1) the Bush Administration (which spent several million dollars and used dozens of much needed human and technical resources to discover WMD to try to avoid the utter embarrasment that followed),

(2) Bush II himself who, as I recall, explicitly stated something like, "There were no WMD in Iraq",

Response: There is no telling why Bush doesn’t come out and publish this stuff. Maybe because he knows that incredibly stupid people will continue to spew their mantra with support from the media and no actual basis.

(3) the left-wing, mainstream, and right-wing media, who concurred with Bush II that there were no WMD,

Response: This has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. There is one main stream media and it is overwhelmingly liberal. Ref report from UCLA

(4) Scott Ritter, former UN Weapons Inspector, who virtually shouted to the world that there were no WMD before we even attacked Iraq,

It’s funny how Ritter initially wanted to go to war and then changed his mind suddenly. The report from the Washington Times strongly implied that Scott Ritter was found to be under the pay of Saddam Hussein from the oil for food money ($400,000.00). I guess traitors come cheap.

(5) Hans Blix, and the UN Weapons Inspection team of 2002-2003, which found no WMD before Bush II forced them to leave so that he could attack Iraq (a country that has NEVER attacked the U.S., was not an imminent threat to the U.S. and was not a forseeable future threat to the U.S - EVEN WITH WMD); and

Response: Hans Blix; the only bigger liar on the face of the earth was Bill Clinton. Be careful about saying “never”. Don’t forget the USS Stark. Bush never said he was an “imminent threat”. That was a Dhimicrat who said that.

(6) virtually everyone else in the rest of the world from the people and governments of Afghanistan to Zimbabwe.

No they're all wrong and you're right!

Response: I wasn;t aware that you had talked to everyone in the world personally. Are you God now?

BigCityLib
My only response to you is this: "Don't believe me or anyone else on that 'list' you provided, but to do your OWN homework and come to your OWN conclusions instead."

The inspection team made a set of notes that plainly show the existance and continuation of weapons programs that they THEN DENIED in their press releases.

Either they are stupid, or they knowingly misled the public with misinformation. To me that is a lie...making a statement that they know to be false by definition is a lie.

I don't care what Bush or the MSM or anyone else says or concludes from whatever was reported by the MSM or anything else.

There were people sent in to determine if there were or were not WMDs present, both before and after the US invasion of Iraq. Their notes and reports speak for themselves. All I can do is point to the document sources as backing for anyone else who cares to check out.

You don't want to believe me at my word? I don't blame you. But please don't accept anyone ELSE's word on it just because they agree with your point of view.

In other words, do your OWN research and come to your OWN conclusions instead of quoting everyone ELSE'S conclusions and press releases.

How hard is that?

Apparently too hard, and it is apparently much easier to imply those who disagree with you are idiots or simpletons....or blind, or whatever else you want to do. "The whole world sees the 'truth', why can't you?" At some point "The Whole World" believed that the world was flat too....being the majority did not make them right. (This is the inherent danger of a Democracy by the way)

You could at least, in the interests of educating a dumb blind idiot like me, point to the report(s) and explain why my conclusions are wrong. Try something other than the "Everyone else says you are wrong so you must be wrong!" argument. It's tiresome.


PS: All: I'm sorry about the typos.

You're my man Mr. Sowell!
He said, "But democracy arose in western civilization centuries after law and order had been established. We tried to do it in the reverse order in Iraq."

This is why our intervention in Iraq and other places in the mid east is a tragic error. These people are not ready now or even by next year to live by western style law and order. They will always defere to Muslim law and order. Thus the formation of theocracies.

We are in an ideological war with religion. You fight that war with prayers not politics.

Goshawk
your just bailing cause you cant come up with anything orgininal.

Truth is, the ROE is classified, and unless you do have a need to know, you shouldnt know what they are anyway...This being the case, I would like to know why so many people here want them to change when they dont know what they are to begin with.

IT is however, incredibly dishonest of you trying to blame this mess on the Democratic Party. This was a Republican right wing neo con operation, and the whole world knows it.

SIMPLE TO SOLVE
Declare a one-week amnesty during which anyone in possessions of arms must hand them in.

After that deadline expires, anyone caught in possession of arms who is not a bona fide member of the US occupation forces or the lawfully constituted Iraqi police or military is summarily executed.

Any foreigner (especially, but not restricted to Iranians or Syrians)found in Iraq without a valid passport and visa is summarily executed.

Any Muslim killed in combat or summarily executed for illegal arms possession or being illegally on Iraqi soil is buried with the carcass of a pig, meaning he/she don't go the Muslim Heaven.

Any mosque from which US or Iranian Government forces are fired up is razed and the ground seeded with pig's blood so that the mosque can never be rebuilt on that site.

Bring it on....
really refers to politics -- those of the good bad and ugly.

PuppyChen
So they should have less freedom than americans? That doesnt seem right.

Truth is, people are allowed to own one fire arm per family. There is a legtimate concern for personal protection.

THE WAY TO WIN
F*ck "rules of engagement."

Write new ones, and make sure everyone in Iraq knows that they will be enforced without exception:

1. Declare a one week amnesty period in which all arms and munitions are to be handed in.

2. On expiry of the notice period, anyone found with arms and munitions who is not a bona fide member of the US occupation force or Iraqi police or army is summarily executed.

3. Anyone summarily executed in this manner is buried with the carcass of a pig, so they don't go to Muslim Heaven and miss out on their 72 virgins.

4. Declare a one week amnesty period in which any foreigner unlawfully in Iraq must leave permanently.

5. On expiry of the notice period, anyone found unlawfully in Iraq (especially, but not confined to Iranians and Syrians) is summarily executed.

6. Anyone summarily executed in this manner is buried with the carcass of a pig, so they don't go to Muslim Heaven and miss out on their 72 virgins.

7. Any mosque from which US or Iraqi units are fired upon from loses its status as a religious building. It will be razed to the ground and the site seeded with pig's blood so that the mosque can never be rebuilt.


The Truth Hurts
Slug,

Is it reasonable to expect me to conduct my own research into UNSCOM's findings regarding Iraq's alleged possession of WMD (or anything else related to Iraq's alleged WMDs) when:

(1) the UNSCOM reports authors' themselves have concluded that any such weapons were destroyed and, to their knowledge, Iraq's WMD programs had not been reconstituted?

(2) When Bush II, a man who is well-known (at least in the MSM) to be a person who hates to admit mistakes, has acknowledged that there were no WMDs in Iraq (after trying to find such weapons; spending millions of "hard-earned taxpayer dollars" - as you cons like to say ;)

(3) When several books, newspaper and magazine articles, have shown how Chalabi and the Iraqi exiles, as well as Scooter Libby and the neo-cons in the Defense Department and White House, have shown how the Administration lied, exaggerated and distorted intelligence to support claims of WMD? [Even Bush, before he ordered the invasion of Iraq, asked former CIA director George Tenet, "Is that all?" when presented with "evidence" of Iraq's alleged WMD program?],

(4) When Bush is escalating the Iraq war after the American electorate, the Congress, including several high profile Republicans, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, the media, including a plethora of right-wing conservative commentators, the military, including generals who've served in the Iraq theater, most of our allies, including the U.K., and the Iraqi government have ALL agreed that such an escalation is futile,

(5) When Bush, instead of trying to negotiate with Iran (per the recommendation of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group), a country which his catastrophic invasion of Iraq has made a regional superpower, is now openly threatening - possibly leading to another invasion of yet another country that is no imminent threat to the U.S.

Now in the face of all of this, why would I spend my time researching something that is now accepted by all major parties involved, except apparently many of the people commenting on Sowell's ludicrous article, namely, IRAQ HAD NO WMD when we attacked?

I might as well do research into whether the earth actually is round? Hmm...Isn't there a Flat Earth Society? They probably are perusing UN reports as well trying to expose that lie about a round(ish) earth. Wake up dude! I know the truth hurts, but you're going nowhere with this line of argument.

BTW, I read your comment about those reports and found your conclusions to be quite implausible and unsupported by the evidence you presented. I also perused the UN reports too - to no avail. BTW, I'm a lawyer too, used to weeding through a lot of such reports...Oh no, a Big City Liberal Attorney on Townhall? What is the world coming too? The world as you cons have known it is changing baby...

LESS FREEDOM THAN AMERICANS?
To Naked Pagan

1. Iraqis are not Americans.

2. Barring a handful of un-American deviants who use guns to attack lawfully constituted authority or to "off" their fellow citizens, the vast majority of US gun-owners use their weapons for hunting and [potentially] self-defense purposes.

Until Iraq is 100% pacified, there is no commonsense in allowing anyone but those lawfully entitled to possess weapons

Naked pagan
Bailed? Not hardly. Why should I try an explain facts to someone who is stuck on stupid. Nothing is accomplished and a wast of time.
And you know nothing of what you speak about. The ROE's in general are NOT classified. They are open orders to every soldier. Just read PuppyChen to get an idea what should be done. But of course you will disagree. So why bother. The only answers you will accept are those that agree with your socialist view of the world.

Noise from the Bush cult
Primus54 writes "But Dr. Sowell is correct... you cannot deal with the political issues until law and order is established."

This is the million dollar question. How do you establish law and order? We tried to create a democracy, but all it achieved was a civil war. So naturally the only forces providing order in Iraq right now are Shia' militias. What is going to replace the Shi'a militias if we eliminate them? The only solution the Bush cult has is to kill more Iraqis and bomb mosques. But they never say how killing more people and destroying more Mosques creates the institutions necessary to sustain a modern western democracy.

So let's hear it: how many Iraqis do we need to kill before Iraqis start liking western democracy? I'm not aware of any nexus between the two, but maybe a Bush cultist can enlighten me.

Crawfish writes, "Did Saddam and his government violate the terms of the 1991 ceasefire agreement? If the answer is yes, then it was our obligation under international law and the terms of that agreement to immediately resume operations against him and to take him and his government OUT!"

Saddam's government did away with its weapons of mass destruction in the summer of 1991 and stopped experimenting on weapons in 1996. Whatever residual programs he had left were eliminated during Operation Desert Fox. However, there are multiple problems with your analysis. We did not invade Iraq because it was in violation of a UN resolution, but because it posed an "urgent threat" to our country. If the United Nations is not willing to enforce its own resolutions, then why should the United States? I'm no fan of the UN, and I find is odd that the Bush cult thinks the United States military exists to uphold the sanctity of a United Nations resolution. I don't think our military exists to uphold UN resolutions, so to whatever extent Saddam was in violation of a UN treaty doesn't matter much to me. Obviously you and I have very different standards -- you think UN treaties are more imporant than your fellow Americans.

Shinque writes "Saddam was known to be a supporter of terrorism and had ties to every Islamofascist terrorist organization on earth, including Al Qaeda. There may have been no direct link between Saddam and 9/11, but this war is not solely about 9/11. It is about terrorism."

Saddam was actually not a supporter of terrorism, and in fact he actually tried to have Zarqawi captured. The "terrorist" groups that Saddam did support were anti-Iranian, like the MEK. He was not a sponsor of terrorism against the west.

Davidmac writes "Red Tooth is the REAL enemy. He and his ilk love the idea of America losing this war. If he was in charge, he'd pull our troops, raise our taxes and give the money to the terrorists, and the North Koreans and all the other bad guys around the world. "

Actually I would remove our troops from Iraq and put them on the Mexican border. Bush is such a horrible president that he has not only lost the war in Iraq, but also is in the process of losing the Mexican war.

"Preventing a sovereign nation from sponsoring and abetting terrorism, which is also the reason we are in Afghanistan."

Actually we are assisting the creation of a national government in Iraq that supports terrorism. SCIRI and al-Dawa are both Iranian backed terror parties. At least Saddam Hussein was an enemy of Iran. Now we have Iran's allies calling the shots.

Stick to the Devil you know.










Goshawk
You'll take the time to hurl insults, but not discuss the issues at hand. I think you need a time out.

They are classified as FOUO. After you look that up, tell me what ones you would like to change, I would like to see how you think these standards are effecting our operations.


I would agree with you but...
I would be an idiot to just take your word for it that i am an idiot...

If the only document that existed was the one that i posted the link to I would also not feel it to be enough evidence to convict.

Yes, using a single document is not really worthy of 'proving' anything. However it is not the only one...

As for your repetitious use of "all the rest of these people say it is so" to prove your point, again i asked you for specifics as to why the UN's own documents which seem to contradict the UN's press releases are being misinterpreted by me.

I don't expect anyone to use their own time to do my research for me. And if you are not interested in doing that research then so be it. But to call me stupid or ignorant or imply that the argument is pointless is quite another. *ESPECIALLY* If you don't care to offer anything useful to the discussion other than vague nothings. At least admit that you don't agree, but stop with the namecalling. State that you disagree and are not interested in researching for yourself and leave it at that. Attempting to prove someone wrong without really doing anything other than quoting some well-known 'truth-tellers' is really getting nowhere...

Like i said before, i don't care what bush, libby etc said, especially since the newest things seem to be in direct contradiction to what they were saying before, AND because what they are saying does not seem to line up with the documenation that is available for review (although it does take some effort).

****Can you explain how repairing and placing destroyed and sealed (by the UN even) equipment back into service does NOT constitute resuming a weapons production program? I'm not a lawyer, so maybe that escapes my understanding...

***Can you explain how sending another pile of the same rubbish (the biological weapons report(s)) that already was provided (in 1996) is somehow being cooperative?

If you can't answer those questions then why should i respect any of what you have to say when you are telling me i am an idiot?

As a lawyer you should be able to pick that whole document apart from start to finish and tell me why my interpretation of just those two points alone is wrong...

I do have a whole pile of other discrepancies which I never posted here because of the style and format of this particular forum. But if you want I can and will. It ended up being an 8 page word document when it was all said and done. I got tired of finding so many things that to any reasonable person meant that Hussein had no intention of every stopping his weapons programs...


***What do YOU call it if the UN tells them to destroy something, they destroy it, the UN puts their seal on the destroyed items for disposal, and then after the UN leaves they repair the machinery and put it back in service?

***Do you call that compliance?


As for your points above.

1. The UN was in a quandary. They knew that the US invasion of Iraq would possibly expose their little oil for food scandal that was an ongoing cash cow. They had every REASON to continue to scream that there were no WMDs or WMD programs in Iraq and that Hussein WAS complying with the UN's resolutions. It's called self preservation. They had every need and motive in the world to lie about the presence of WMDs. The half dozen or so quarterly reports that i read through support that, even though if you cross-check the body with the end-of-document summaries there are pretty significant discrepancies...

2. He never admitted to making a mistake, he just said that he went on "faulty intelligence" placing hte blame firmly on the intelligence community.... that's not really anything to hang your hat on. A politician saying something to make hte press happy...

3. 3rd & 4th person hearsay, (with or without agendas) can you back that with anything concrete? especially the "is that all" quote? Come on, a lawyer is NOT going to accept at face value something that the "neo cons" say as the truth....please. I'm not *that* stupid... But it suits your agenda...so they in this one instance must be right...

4. Red herring, has nothing to do with whether or not Hussein had WMDs or was pursuing WMD programs outside of those sanctioned by the UN. Lawyer?

5. Still not on topic. Divert, divert, divert!

4&5 have nothing to do with proving or disproving anything about my credibility or about whether the UN inspectors found stuff that was supposed to be there or not supposed to be there.

So my lawyer friend, please stay on topic. I am an idiot, and i need these simple questions answered for me. I'll just put a '***' next to them in the text instead of re-stating them here.

Tell me why my analysis of just that one report is not enough evidence to prove Hussein's intent to continue WMD programs...

The truth may indeed hurt, but so far you've done nothing to convince me that what i have discovered to be true is NOT true by addressing the evidence that i used to get to that conclusion.

When arguing a trial do you not prove that the evidence presented against your case is false? or that it is not interpreted correctly? Don't lawyers have to make a clear case based on hard facts(or at the least VERY reputable circumstantial evidence)?

Tell my why my interpretations are wrong...then maybe your 'truth' will be revealed.

Slug
Is it possible BigCityLib is pulling our leg?
Could he be trying to immitate Loyal Democrat?
Would you ask him if he can do Benny Hill?


What does an attorney make per hour?


Well,
Not sure, it is possible, but the way it is posted seems to me that he/she is the genuine article and honestly believes I am wrong. No big deal.

I just wish people on this forum could disagree without throwing a 3rd grade fit and namecalling to make themselves feel better... This goes for both sides...

Or better yet actually discuss the points that disagreement revolves around. Otherwise no learning goes on and the discussion is pointless.

Again, if i have no intention of proving my point, i'll just state "i believe you are wrong, but i don't feel like proving it" and leave it at that. Taking it to the next level is childish beyond belief. "You're too stupid to see the truth, you're too blind to see the truth" etc.

And 'because everyone else says so' is not what i consider "proof".

Disagreement does not mean stupidity or evil intent. But to read some commentary here you'd think that anyone who disagrees with you should be labeled an idiot...

If 2 people agree with each other 100% of the time on all topics, one of them is a waste of oxygen, food and real estate. As such implying that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid, evil or ignorant makes you a very lonely person, because you will ALWAYS have a disagreement with someone at some point.

bigcitylib and others
WMDs: The facts are that
1) Saddam used chemical weapons in the late 80s and early 90s
2) Saddam was unwilling to let weapons inspectors have the free access they requested throughout most of the 90s
3) While some chemical weapons were destroyed, many could not be accounted for and had to be assumed to be hidden since inspectors weren't allowed to inspect
4) There have been stockpiles of chemical weapons found, none in newer rockets, but still there
5) Every major intelligence organization believed Saddam was pursuing renewal of his programs in the late 90s and early 00s
6) If Saddam claimed they were all gone for 2 years (and I do recall this being said) why did he not let inspectors inspect anywhere not preplanned?
7) Any responsible President had to assume that if we took our eye off of Iraq while we "finished the job in Afghanistan", (more nation building that by nature is a long slow process)as soon as our back was turned he would develop ways to threaten us, he had before, and he certainly wanted to again. Plus, he had been paying Palestinean suicide bombers, taking pot shots at our enforcers of the no fly zone, and defying UN resolutions every time he was able to. Our "allies" were buying his oil behind our backs and every cent he had was going into means to defy us. There was enormous pressure from Europe, China and Russia to remove sanctions and let Saddam return to power unfettered. These on top of reasons listed are credible threats. Yes nation building sucks, but if you want to see what happens when you go in and leave too quickly to stabilize things history is full of examples.

I am no great fan of Bush, as a teacher I feel his no child left behind act was a sop to liberals that has had no meaningful positive results, his unwillingness to stand up to the corruption of his "friend" Vicente Fox and secure the border have been negligent, and his encouragement to the market to pursue alternate energy sources has been lackluster. But he was absolutely right to enter Iraq, and when things from this era are declassified, and we look back from the vantage point of the future, it will bear that out even if we pull out and choose failure..

When did Saddam cease having WMDs?
"Saddam violated MULTIPLE provisions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement and UN accords. Even war supporters tend to forget this"

When did Saddam cease having WMDs?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1156507691.541484.301550%40h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com

ad hominems
"I just wish people on this forum could disagree without throwing a 3rd grade fit and namecalling"

Feynman, R. Reid, and Berlinski on _ad hominems_
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.990102235105.11328B-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu


redtooth
"Saddam's government did away with its weapons of mass destruction in the summer of 1991 and stopped experimenting on weapons in 1996. Whatever residual programs he had left were eliminated during Operation Desert Fox."

Hindsight and the fact that it's January 2007 allows you to make this claim but in March 2003, on the eve of war, this could not be proven, let alone seriously argued. Most intelligence told us that he did have them, and considering his past we could not afford to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately, your blind hatred of Bush will never allow you to look at anything concerning Iraq with anything approaching objectivity.




wil
If we were to pull out now without securing Iraq we would just have to retake the same ground later.
What friends and credibility we have now would be lost and there would be a higher cost in life.
Whatever we do in Iraq will not end this war but it could bring it right here to HomeTown U.S.A.
Would you like to have to guess where the next IED will go off in your town or where the next school bus will be blown up?
America has trusted Democrats with National Defense.
Many Americans think Democrats are more likely to collaborate with the enemy than defend America.
If Democrats fumble the ball on National Defense the Communists will need to find a new home because there will be no more Democrat Party to hide in!

myopine
i know...that was kind of my point. What I was trying to say at the end was that in the future, whether we surge or pull out, history will look back and realize we were right to go into Iraq but wrong to pull out if we do so. I guess perhaps I worded that incorrectly.

wil
Yes

Donaldd
"Do you realize that is all there ever was."

Besides Slug's great post, not so to your line. I have a letter from the VA saying my unit wsa exposed to sarin in the first go around.

"Oh, but that was years ago." Well, when UNSC1441 was passed it, everybody on the council said yes. If the French, Russians, Chinese had thought there was a possibility Saddam didn't have WMD, they could have and would have vetoed or had that language removed. They didn't.

Not to belabor a point
But this is precisely what i have been trying to say is not true...

""Saddam's government did away with its weapons of mass destruction in the summer of 1991 and stopped experimenting on weapons in 1996. Whatever residual programs he had left were eliminated during Operation Desert Fox.""

...based on the research I did in the UN's own document archive.

Iraq, while under 'strict' trade sanctions mind you, managed to buy 380 SA-2 rocket engines. Which later were found in the Netherlands and Jordan of all places...

Complete with UN seals intact...

All supposedly destroyed or scheduled to be destroyed...yet he didn't have WMDs....please...


A popular tactic the media has used has been to redefine what a WMD is, and to totally leave off the second half of that whole deal; namely the PROGRAMS to research, develop and build more and better weapons. Per the language used in the UN resolutions WMDs were X and existed. As did programs to manufacture and arm them as appropriate. But when the media reports that no WMDs were found, they really mean no 'Y' were found and ignore the working WMD definition by which the UN was holding Iraq accountable.

I like the one question posed by Synthesizer: When did Hussein and Iraq STOP having WMDs?

My only addition would be to say "Prove it". And i would suggest before embarking on that little venture that whoever decides to try to prove a lack of WMDs REALLY needs to read the UN inspection records first...I would do that research BEFORE promising to prove hussein didn't have WMDs personally...

Because after reading 2 or 3 of them there is no way I could, with a clear conscience, make the statement that there were no WMDs or WMD programs in Iraq in 2003 prior to our invasion.

The Last Word
Slug,

I know you've probably been anxiously waiting by your computer, checking every few minutes or so, for my response, but I just arrived home. I must admit that I'm a little surprised by the length and vehemence of your response. Chill dude!

I certainly don't have the time or inclination to respond in-depth to your response, so I'll just give you some quotes to show you why I believe that IRAQ HAD NO WMD when we invaded and why it's riduculous and futile for me to conduct any further research (or respond any further) in connection with Iraq's alleged WMD. The following is from a CBS News/AP story, dated October 7, 2004 (over TWO YEARS ago!):

1. "Much of the accumulated body of our intelligence [in connection with Iraq's alleged WMD] was wrong and we must find out why," Bush II said on October 6, 2004.

2. "Had we had a few months more (of inspections before the war), we would have been able to tell both the CIA and others that there were no weapons of mass destruction (at) all the sites that they had given to us," Hans Blix, [Chief U.N. weapons inspector before Bush's invasion] said on October 5, 2004.

3. "Charles Duelfer, the American weapons hunter in Iraq, presented to the Senate and the public a report that Saddam's weapons of mass destruction programs had deteriorated into only hopes and dreams by the time of the U.S.-led invasion last year." (CBS News/AP October 7, 2004).

4. "Duelfer's Iraq Survey Group drew on interviews with senior Iraqi officials, 40 million pages of documents and classified intelligence to conclude that Iraq destroyed its undeclared chemical and biological stockpiles under pressure of U.N. sanctions by 1992 and never resumed production." (CBS News/AP October 7, 2004).

Source for Quotes:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/12/iraq/main666327.shtml

Duelfer's Iraq Survey Group report summary:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/wmdfinalreport.pdf

Now Slug, how could I possibly compete with Duelfer. The dude's ISG drew on interviews with Iraqis, millions of pages of documents and classified intelligence. I'd TRY to compete with Duelfer, but I can't even speak or read Arabic (though that would actually probably have qualified me for a high-level position in Paul Bremer's coalition provisional Iraqi government ;)

So, this is enough for me. If Bush II, Duelfer, Hans Blix, Scott Ritter, and the left-wing, mainstream and right-wing media are all pulling the wool over my eyes, then they're doing an absolutely outstanding job and I congratulate them (for they have me convinced that IRAQ HAD NO WMD when Bush ordered the invasion). This apparent conspiracy and cover-up they have going must rival that Kennedy assassination conspiracy and cover-up.

One other thing. You kept mentioning the fact that I'm a lawyer in your response. I'm intrigued by how much it seems to bother you that I'm a Big City Liberal Attorney...Sorry dude. I guess maybe you'd feel more comfortable with me if I hadn't worked so hard to "pull myself up by my bootstraps," as the good Dr. Sowell would say, and had a less prestigious occupation. Maybe if you work a little harder in America's equal opportunity meritocracy, you too could become a lawyer.

In closing for tonight (I'll certainly be commenting on Townhall in the future--it's so fun!), try to remember that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. It may start to change your thinking in positive ways about this odd Iraq WMD debate I've just concluded.

All the best,
BigCityLib

BigCityLib