Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Monday, January 01, 2007
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
A dangerous obsession: Part V
by Thomas Sowell
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Perhaps it is one of the fruits of the "self-esteem" emphasis in our schools that so many people feel confident to voice strong convictions about things they know little or nothing about -- or, worse yet, are misinformed about.

One of the hardest things for anyone to be informed about is the value of someone else's productivity. Yet there are cries from all directions that some people are being paid "too much" and others "too little."

Who can possibly be better informed about the value of what someone else produces than those who use the goods or services that the person provides and pay for it with their own money?

Things are worth it or not worth it to particular individuals. What these things might be worth to somebody else is irrelevant.

People who think that they, or the government, ought to be deciding how much income people make are in effect saying that they know the value of people's output better than those who use that output and pay for it with their own money.

How did Bill Gates get his fortune? Not by someone deciding how much Bill Gates was worth to "society," but by innumerable people around the world deciding whether what Microsoft offered them was worth what Microsoft charged.

What all those sales added up to -- Microsoft's income and Gates' fortune -- nobody decided. Nor is there any reason why they should have, even aside from the fact that nobody is qualified to make such a decision.

We can each decide for ourselves whether what Microsoft offers is worth it to us. That is all we are competent to decide -- and only for ourselves individually, when spending our own money.

The idea that we should pool our collective ignorance and then decide how much it is "fair" for Gates or anybody else to earn in total income is as ridiculous as it is dangerous, for it means arming politicians with the arbitrary power to decide everyone's economic fate.

Do we want our own family's living standards to be at the mercy of politicians? Are we so eaten up with envy that we will risk that, in order to keep Gates from having "too much" money, paid by people who voluntarily bought Microsoft's products?

A recent campaign in California to sock the oil companies with bigger taxes hyped the fact that oil company profits were $78 billion.

That sounds like a lot of money. For that matter, $78 million would sound like a lot of money. If the truth be known, there was a time when just $78 would have seemed like a lot of money to me.

But so what? What do we know about the economics of the oil industry? How many billions did they invest to get that $78 billion in profits? And how many billions did they lose in their bad years?

Utter ignorance of all these things has not been enough to discourage people from loudly demanding that the government "do something" about "Big Oil" and its profits.

The same reliance on ignorance applies at the other end of the economic scale. People who know nothing about retailing, nothing about labor markets and nothing about economics are loudly demanding that the local, state or federal government "do something" about the low pay of Wal-Mart's employees.

Those employees know what their alternative job opportunities are and other employers know what their productivity would be worth to them. If the workers themselves choose Wal-Mart as their best option, what qualifies us to say that either their choice or Wal-Mart's choice was wrong?

Most low-income people, whether at Wal-Mart or elsewhere, do not stay low-income forever -- or for more than a few years. Most Americans in the bottom 20 percent at a given time are later in the top half of the income distribution, after they have acquired some more job experience.

Are individual decisions made by people deciding what is best for themselves to be over-ruled by ignorant busybodies, obsessed by things they do not understand?

Is the whole economic system of supply and demand, on which the nation's prosperity is based, to be disrupted whenever moral exhibitionists have a need to feel puffed up about themselves?

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Thomas Sowell and Townhall.com's daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
 
©Creators Syndicate
Good column Dr. Sowell
And you've explained everything so simple that even a child should understand. But alas, even though you are an expert in the field of economics. I think the Demo/Libs will pour out of the woodwork to tell you how wrong you are. Because you defend big business and Wall-Mart. Their favorite targets.

Profit is not an obscene word
Dr. Sowell hits 5 of 5 with this one. He has touched on one of the fundamentals of conservative thought, which is one reason why so many have posted so vehemently against this series.

What Dr. Sowell here points out is something that is lost on many liberal economists (if there is such a thing...) People tend to think of profit as the thing that is left over after workers have been paid and other expenses met. Since there is money left over, it is obviously unfair that it is not paid to the workers who acquired it.

What tends to be missed, and what Dr. Sowell alludes to here is that profit is an expense as sure as any other. In a free market system, capital comes from only a few sources: debt and ownership. If the business only can meet its debt with no profit, what is the incentive of the business owner to own a business? If any business does not have a return on the capital invested in it, it will go belly up and die. Profit is an expense, and if it is not met, investors will withdraw their funding, and the company is no more. If you had a stock only returning 2% per year, you'd sell it just so you wouldn't be losing out to inflation. If there is no profit, there is no incentive in the first place, and the business either dies or never is to begin with. (Ironically, those who post at this site against the points Dr. Sowell brings up are using the fruits of one such economic endeavor: the computer.)

What Marx never realized is that our system has evolved today to allow even an hourly worker at the evil Wal-Mart to buy ownership via stock (communists out there, read: means of production)
So before you tend to spout off about the 'obscene' profits that Wal-Mart, Exxon-Mobil, Microsoft, General Motors, or pretty much any other company is making, remember that you probably have a nice chunk of that in your IRA, 401(k), pension plan etc... remind liberals of that next time it comes up.

It sounds good, and mostly it is, but. .
While I am a big believer in the free market, one area I'm not is in the free market of labor!

As an example of this, I think we all agree we don't want just anyone moving in from wherever to become our neighbors. So that means that certain jobs are fixed to their nationality (such as those in construction, and almost all of the service sector jobs such as retail and health care), but others such as manufacturing, software, etc., are internationally mobile. So what is the problem.

The problem is when US corporations take advantage of the stability created by the US military to export these high value add jobs overseas. These are the export oriented jobs, unlike the captive service sector jobs.

In my experience, many of the high value added jobs in other countries have the equal or even better life style of their American counterparts, for instance software engineers. The reason is the cheapness of labor in those economies. But since labor can't cross borders, you have the problem that the US prices are far in excess to those in developing countries (that and the overhead of the federal, state, and local governments). Therefore US production will remain more costly than in foreign countries, which is to the detriment of the US since these are the export oriented industries.

The libs will disagree anyway
Facts and explanations of how things work are lost on the left. They will bring in what they consider fairness, and point to starving babies, and gross excesses of some wealthy people. Its no more logical than when you explain how an internal combustion engine works, and some student hollers "that's not fair. Engines ought to burn water. Then we wouldn't have to buy oil from the Arabs". But the Good Book states these 3 abideth, faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of thewe is charity. However, our constitution is not concerned with charity and it is not a govt responsibility at the federal level. States are free to practice governmental charity if the voters like it that way. The feds are not. All federal attempts to be charitable should be replaced with employer of last resort programs.

What's yours is mine
Socialism (or progressivism, or whatever the jargon du jour is) does not reject outright the private ownership of property, the way communism does, and turn the administration of property over to armed thugs. Socialism admits to a quasi-democratic process called "redistribution" by bureaucrats appointed by elected officials.

Under traditional capitalism, property is recognized under the principle, "What's mine is mine and what's yours is yours" and the disposition of such is adjudicated under the rule of law. Traditional capitalism also allows the government to own property, but they still have to administer it under recognizable rules for the general benefit of taxpayers, such as the national parks.

Under socialism, much property is still owned privately, but is based on the idea "What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine, too." I can live in a nice house and call the cops if someone breaks into it, but if someone I'm jealous of lives in a much nicer house, I can elect a politician to take his stuff away and "redistribute" it.

Under capitalism, charity is when A gives his own money to B. Under socialism, charity is when B hires a politician to give C's money to D. Or better yet, B gets in on the act and keeps some of C's money for himself and calls it "social justice."


Solis
Congratulations! You win the Booby Prize for being the first sputtering lunatic to attack Dr. Sowell. If this article is incoherent and not credible to you, your mind has left your body.

Disgrace to race, I think not. Thomas Sowell is a credit to the human race. He is infinitely smarter than most of us, especially you, and I treasure every one of his words because they make me just a tiny bit wiser.

Wisdom such as his is hard to find and because you deny it or have no ability to recognize it, shows why you have none.

Solis
Your cut and paste efforts are wearing out my scroll symbol. Have a little mercy and let us learn a little something without having to put up with your bitter envy. True greed is wanting something for nothing. Most every Socialist i've run into is greedy.

Solis
Who let the liberal, Castro loving, socialist racist in? Go back to the Daily Kos were your idiotic rants will be appreciated and viewed as "deep thinking".

Solis, get a clue
So, who am I supposed to trust, if you are right and Sowell is wrong? Apparently, I'm supposed to trust the Democrats to do a redistribution. But I don't. Just about every poor white male has figured out by now that the Democrats aren't going to include them in any sort of redistribution, so why bother voting for them? And I believe that even poor white females have figured out that the Democrats aren't going to do a lot for them. Face it, Solis, the white working class has abandoned the Democrats because the Democrats abandoned them.

To get the white working class on their side, the Democrats would have to make class number one on their list, and I don't see that happening any time soon. Here is a list of the Democrats' priorities:

1. Race
2. Gender
3. Sexual orientation
4. The environment
5. Foreign policy
6. The disabled
7. Class

I'm not going to argue about the exact order of items 1 through 6. I will argue that class is way down the list, which is why the Democrats cannot get a class war going. Any redistribution would really mean diverting money to all those other causes before giving it to the white working class. They in fact would get nothing. So they will generally vote Republican rather than Democrat.

Solis
When I started out 25 years ago fresh out of college, I had a negative net worth. Yup, college loans. Only $2500 or so but still below $0. The richest 10% might have been worth an average of 10 mil. at that point.

Today, my sons are graduating from college. I have paid for their college but if I hadn’t, they would have a considerably negative net worth. Many college grads have $100,000 in loans…thus a very negative net worth. The top 10% now may be worth an average of 500 million.

It’s not hard to see how there is a more (and growing) gap between the poor among us and the richest. The richest know how to, and grow their wealth. Young persons will always have little or no wealth to start with. They have lots of time to change that scenario and if they applied themselves, an education to help them in their quest.

Wealth also increases simply by inflation. A person who owned 100 acres of land 25 years ago worth $200,000 may still own the same parcel of land which is now worth 4 million or more depending on location. Is that person richer?

Of one thing I am absolutely convinced: If personal reward is taken away from those who choose to work hard, those who have great ideas, and those who invest wisely, our society will be nothing but a bunch of bums and beggars.

Happy New Year all!!!


Who said the Dems will save us?
they are just as corrupt and incompetent as the repubs.

the bottom line is: no one can argue with my basic premise -- that the gap between workers' and execs' wages, and the rich and the poor, has increased dramatically over the past thirty years, yet not one of you seems to care.

of course, that doesn't suprise me in the least, but the point remains. and anyone who disregards this point through a vague flurry of apologist, self-serving rhetoric is morally bankrupt.

Dashing Dave...
first of all, thank you for the intelligent response.

you wrote: "It’s not hard to see how there is a more (and growing) gap between the poor among us and the richest. The richest know how to, and grow their wealth."

this is true.

but how does this take into account the reality that execs' wages have raised every single year while workers' wages have not?

second, why has congress voted itself a wage raise EVERY single year for the past decade while the minium wage (which does not bring one above the poverty line when working forty hours a week) and workers' wages have both stagnated? this is a national disgrace.

the real bottom line is that greed and cronyism has taken over. in the past two years, the oil companies have posted record profits while receiving the single largest federal cororate handout of ALL TIME.

no amount of rhetoric, spin, or 'fuzzy math' can deny the glaring reality. this is nothing less than shameful.

solis
Well you can help the "poor people" who can't seem to get it together by just raising the minimum wage, right? You are such a moron. We are already priced out of the world market because of government regulations and interference in wages so jobs are being exported. People do not start businesses for charity you know, but to MAKE MONEY. Every hike starts another round of inflation, and another round of jobs disappearing. You are a socialist. If a person needs more, the answer is to get more skilled at a job that pays more. Not raising wages on a job that any idiot can do.

Wal-Mart Bashing
People who think Wal-Mart needs to pay its employees more money are actually saying that Wal-Mart customers should pay more for things Wal-Mart sells.

Wal-Mart does not cater to rich clients. Why ordinary Americans should have to spend more for everyday necessities like food and prescription medicines is hard to fathom.

But low price isn't Wal-Mart's only competitive advantage. The company also offers a hugh selection of products. Maybe the liberal Left doesn't want ordinary Americans to have access to these goods, either.

Now, if you want to identify something that's a waste of money, then just look at the liberal writers and editors of your local liberal newspaper. Or look at the liberal TV news network. Of course, no one has to make a big caase for hacking away at the profits of liberal media. Their (former) customers have done that for them.

Instead, the Left wants to prop up these market failures with government subsidies. In short, the Left wants to make everyone pay a high price for good and services few want and restrict access and increase costs on services everyone does want.

not-completely-random thoughts
The average household income of a person earning today's minimum wage, according to both the IRS and BLS, is just under $50,000 per annum.

The average (median) "poor" person in Anmerica today has the equivalent standard of living as the average (median) person in France.

It is absolutely false that the rich keep getting richer while the poor keep getting poorer. It is, however, absolutely true -- as Solis tells, iterates, reiterates -- that the gap between rich and poor keeps increasing. The latter is both to be applauded and understood as inevitable.

Even if one is totally unproductive, he earns $zero. Stupid is as stupid does. Poor is as poor does. In contrast, as one becomes ever more productive, value to others increases and increases, and so do earnings. Downside stops at zero; upside is infinite.

Dr. Sowell is Right and Right
I found that Dr. Sowell researched and wrote his article carefully. Compare to Solis, who is full of WAAs (wild-a** assertions). There are some statements which can be backed by facts there, but Solis then falls into "it's a rich conspiracy". I will no longer use his name, but note that he falls into the cateogory I write about, the Liberal/Progressive/Socialist, which I will call Liberal for the rest of this article. But recognize that those who identify themselves as Liberals or Progressives are really espousing Socialist or even Communist thoughts.

If we could make poverty go away by throwing money at it, the trillions spent on the War on Poverty since 1963 should have made it disappear. Based on this evidence, either the government is inept, or the problem cannot be cured by money alone. I subscribe to the latter: education and a God-fearing lifestyle will make this country function better, not the many "level the field" failed programs of the War on Poverty.

But Liberals always want to redistribute income, not wealth. Why do many of the rich DEMOCRATS who want to redistribute income not put in place programs to distribute wealth? Call to mind the income tax statements by Kerry and Heinz in 2003. They paid less percentage tax than I do, and 90% of my income comes from my work.

Until the American people get smart and understand that wealth does not pay income tax nor social security and Medicare taxes we will continue to get income and wealth confused. Due to the majority of American people not being able to make this distinction, the Kennedys, Kerrys, Reids of the world want to take money from MY pocket (salary income) and redistribute it while they hold on to their wealth and invest it in triple tax exempt municipal bonds, foreign accounts and other non-taxable accounts.

And the wealthy Senators don't pay Medicare on anything except their Senate salaries. Yet they loudly proclaim that the "rich" should be taxed. What they mean is that the PRODUCTIVE should be taxed, while the non-productive like them should sit back and husband their wealth which always seems to not get taxed.

Finally, compare the poor in this country to the bulk of the world nations. Even our poor are blessed.

There once were two liberals who had a dream and turned it into a successful company. They decreed when the company was set up that the CEO would make only XX times (I think it was 8 times) the lowest person's wages. The latest data I can find (1995) show that the CEO made $250,000 in salary and $630,000 in stock options. They must have a REALLY well-paid janitors and production workers!

Stock options for key employees was an approach pushed by Liberals to make sure that the CEO was paid for performance, not just because he was CEO so the rich executives would quit "milking the company". But like every other Liberal approach tried it makes the problem worse, not go away. So, that the government is to blame for the "runaway" CEO salaries is another delightful result of the law of unintended consequences.

Obsession
You are so right about WalMart and Bill Gates. But what about Johnson at Albertsons who rode the company into the ground and then sold it. He was hired and knew zero about the grocery business yet, his compenstion package was in the $100 million range. There are countless other examples of compenstion making no sense.($20 million plus for playing a game!)

What is so wrong about merit provisos in their salary schdule and sensible sverance packages.

Let' level the playing field and let the market place determine compensation, not the federal govenment.

Nanarae
brilliant point you made there: so i guess we can just start outsourcing all of our fast-food, car wash, and cashier jobs then?

second, we are not 'priced out' of the world market due to government regulation. that has nothing to do with it whatsoever. the reason we are in this mess is because execs' have focused on one thing -- and one thing only -- for far too long -- the bottom line for themselves and their cronies. it has had nothing to do with producing world-competitive quality (see the u.s. automobile industry) or cultivating community through executive pay cuts to boost workers' wages and buying power.

YOU are the moron.

finally -- minmum wage aside -- what about the gap between worker's wages and executive wages?

of course, you have no explanation for that.

Solis' Marxist drival
Who are you to say how much a company pays their CEO? Or how much an employer pays his employee?

How many billions did the oil companies invest over the years before they made a few billions in profit this year?

Your illogical thinking is based on envy and spite, retribution, redistribution and punitive measures as a reward for success. Not a very good environment for continued growth and expansion or energy self-sufficiency, a critical need your brand of thinking has been blocking for years.

You cling to the "zero sum" economics which wrongly believes that if one person gets richer, another must get poorer. It doesn't work with money, but it does seem like the smarter Dr. Sowell gets, the dumber you are. Central control of an economy, socialism that you demand has failed miserably everywhere it's been tried. Everywhere, and your dogma has nothing new or innovative that would result in a different outcome. Insert definition of insanity here.

I'm just a trucker but I've figured everything you posit has been discredited whereas Dr. Sowell has shown himselt to be correct, over and over. If you were my Econ 101 professor, I would drop your class and demand my money back, thereby making myself richer and you poorer.

Read Free to Choose by Milton Friedmann and grow up.

Solis
The reason the rich keep getting rich and the poor stay poor is that rich people do those things which make them rich and poor people insist on doing stupid things which are guaranteed to keep them poor. Dr. Sowell's close friend, Walter Williams, has a wonderful remedy for poverty: stay in school and get an education, then get a job, avoid drugs and trouble with the law, and, above all, avoid having children until you're married and can afford them. If you take the time to look around, you will observe that pretty much all of the poor have broken one of those guidelines, and a great percentage have violated all of them. There is no excuse for being poor in this country if you are physically and mentally fit. If you can't make it here, there is no hope for you anywhere in the world.

obsession
Mr. Sowell is correct with most of what he says. I do however have some concern with all the merges with corporations big and small. One who supplies janitorial supplies locally, is now owned by another company in Colorado and that company is owned by a company in (I beleive) Denmark. If that company is also owned by another I don't know. I believe very much in free interprise and have no problem with anybodys earnings. I really am concerned that probably the stockholders of our automobile companies are probably the same stockholders of the oil companies. I can see that if these merges continue that truly there will only be a handful of corporations that will own everything in this country including the congress!

Solis...read on
You say: how does this take into account the reality that execs' wages have raised every single year while workers' wages have not?

This is blatantly NOT true. Both workers wages and exec. pay have increased every year. But this is simple worker jealousy. Who is to say what any worker is worth to it’s company except the owner or shareholders? Is there cronyism some times? Of course. You can choose not to invest in those companies or not to buy from them. Many libs would not be caught dead in a Wal-Mart while most poor and average Americans love the savings they get there.


You also say: second, why has congress voted itself a wage raise EVERY single year for the past decade while the minium wage (which does not bring one above the poverty line when working forty hours a week) and workers' wages have both stagnated? this is a national disgrace.

Congress usually votes themselves inflationary increases. Personally, I think we pay them way too much and keep them on the dole for way too long. Workers wages have also increased by approx. the same percentage.

Minimum wage is another matter. Here’s a simple question for you: Who pays for increased wages among Americas workers? The answer is simple: The people who buy their products. That would be you and me. And if we mandate high wages be paid to American workers, then we must also mandate high tariffs on imports because world wages are considerably lower than wages here. That means that everything we buy jumps in price. Now, here is another simple question: If wages increase by 20% and the cost of living (i.e. everything we buy) goes up 30%, are American workers better off? Obviously not.

If you want a quick example of what happens in this scenario, then just look at Europe which has gone the protectionist route. The poor in America have immensely more material things and larger living quarters than the average person in Europe.

Solis
"the bottom line is: no one can argue with my basic premise -- that the gap between workers' and execs' wages, and the rich and the poor, has increased dramatically over the past thirty years, yet not one of you seems to care."

Let me be very clear for you. You are right, I don't care about the wage gap. The wage gap is good in fact. The wage gap raises the bar for me and gives me more incentive to work harder, increase my productivity, improve my value to my employer, and earn more money.

In your world, there is no incentive to work harder, etc. If someone else is going to earn what I earn for less effort (or take what I earn for themselves) then I have no incentive to try and get ahead. None.

In your world, the best we can hope for is status quo. History has shown us that your way doesn't work.

Rugged Individualist ...Right on
You say:Instead, the Left wants to prop up these market failures with government subsidies. In short, the Left wants to make everyone pay a high price for good and services few want and restrict access and increase costs on services everyone does want.

Couldn't have said it better!

disparities
Dr. Sowell's title subject is "A Dangerous Obsession." Let us not lose sight of that focus. Solis feels the disparities can and should be ironed out, but nobody really knows how to do that without dragging down the sum total.

In the main, what really matters is where ordinary people live and work, not the extremities of wealth and degradation. Ordinary lives are more precisely measured by things like life expectancy, educational awareness and physical safety -- not by freak show displays of wealth and poverty.

Pinnacles of income, or other sorts of "disparities" careen off into irrelevence and mystery. Why, for example, is Charlize Theron so much more beautiful than the average woman? Is it just trick photography -- or is she really that cute? Why is Jerry Seinfeld so much funnier? Is he truly ingenious, or is it just clever handling by the Hollywood dream machine? No matter what the means, how could those disparities ever be rectified, except by tearing those people down? Diet and exercise can assist the general health of people, but isn't likely to make the average girl drop-dead gorgeous. Cultivating a sense of humor isn't likely to enable the average Joe to keep people laughing through years of reruns.

I mention these other disparities because IMHO in real life, real time, enjoying the company of the people you know is more important than the ultra-ultra wealth of the Michael Eisners, Bill Gateses and the Sheik of Araby. Having a sense of humor is more important than riches, not just for the society at large, but for individual happiness. It's more important that ordinary people find means to first survive and then thrive. Tearing down high achievers is not the way to get there. You can find entire societies where virtually nobody is rich -- jungle tribes in New Guinea, Amazonia and whatnot -- and there are no disparities to worry about. Who among us want to live there?

Disparities worldwide ARE being leveled -- not by the have-nots tearing down the haves, but with formerly left-behind countries like China and India finally getting with the program. Solis and others can bleat all they want about the minimum wage and the plutocrats wallowing in ill-gotten gains in the palaces of Pleasure Island, but in the meantime billions (yes, BILLIONS!)of ordinary Asians are laboring mightily to catch up. They will, unless they revert to their previous states of envy, resentment, scapegoating and counterproductive socialist experimentation.

Solis
Let's, for the moment and the sake of argument, assume that you are right, and that the gap between the rich and the poor is widening.

So what?

Why don't you explain to us why that is necessarily a bad thing?

ed1
The problem with your piece is not in the arguments you make; they all seem very valid. Rather, you just seem to fail to take into account a very important piece of the puzzle.

Yes, jobs that go overseas to take advantage of the cheaper labor represent a loss to the American economy, in the sense that those workers do not live here to then plunge their wages back into the economy. HOWEVER. The lower cost of labor translates into a lower price attached to the goods and services that come back to the American consumer, and this is an important aspect to the growth of American wealth.

Lowering the cost of goods and services is one of the key points in what makes the American "poor" the richest, best-off underclass in the world. Many "poor" in America own a car, a phone, a television, and are well-fed enough. More, they are no one's chattel; they have political rights unparalleled in the history of the world. All of this, and mainly because the cost of all of those items, once the province of the wealthy, have dropped to be within the reach of everyone.

Sawdust,Otho
Perfectly stated. Russia is a great example of the "status quo" Why did people starve there? Why was there never enough food,clothing or labor to go around?
Well, let's see. The workers were never rewarded for their productivity, and paid a pittance. So when the flour ran out to make the bread, where was the incentive to go find more, grow more stuff to get more? The wasn't any.
In contrast, when the free market began to take off, people were rewarded by their own hard work. The bread was never out, there were always ingredients, and surprise, the harder they worked, the more money they made.
Europe, we all know, is a lousy example,too. (and it's the place where liberals think they can find their redistribution panacea) Although people don't starve, they have no incentive to be enterprenuerial because the government regulates everything.
So, once in a job, they stay there to retire, don't think out of their box and know no different. Unless fortunate enough to travel to the US and see what we have.
There are those who sacrifice everything to come here,because they have the wherewithall to know their hardwork will mean ownership in no time at all. Amazing, isn't this country great!

Solis
I'll try to keep this simple and use as many single-syllable words as possible. Yes, the gap between the rich and the not as rich in this country grows. That whole concept is irrelavant. The question is are the poor in this country well off? And, like it or not, the answer is yes. People who work a full time job do well and improve themselves, living at a level unheard of even 25 years ago. The only permanent underclass in this country is composed of welfare recipients who accept that as their way of life - their future is bleak at best. Poor workers in this country can live in a home that would be considered a palace in most of the rest of the world. They own color television sets, computers, automobiles, they have cell phones. All of these things are considered luxuries in most of the world. The people in this country condemned to a life of misery and want are those who rely on the government for their livlihood. And when the rich have lots of money, they spend it on things most of us would consider frivolous. Those frivolities, however, provide income for less well-off folks. The simple fact that left-wingers never seem to accept is that the wealth created by folks like Bill Gates does not impoverish anyone - it creates wealth that millions have participated in and shared. The fact that he got more does not mean anyone had theirs taken away.

Regarding Solis
Re-read Dr.Sowell's first two paragraphs.

Enough said!

Solis
You are exactly right. I don't care that the income gap is getting wider. It shouldn't be of any concern to anyone. What everyone should be concerned about is how much they are earning. If you spend time worrying about what others are earning you are wasting time. You should take it as motivation.

I'm just glad that I'm earning $100K per year now instead of the $30K I used to earn. More of the 'poor' need to get off their miserable, lazy, fat asses and increase their productivity.

Tomgee
You wrote:

"Socialism... does not reject outright the private ownership of property, the way communism does..."

But THEN you wrote:

"Under capitalism, charity is when A gives his own money to B. Under socialism, charity is when B hires a politician to give C's money to D. Or better yet, B gets in on the act and keeps some of C's money for himself and calls it "social justice."

You have for the most part a very clear going on here, but the problem is that you leave the biggest point unstated. Getting a "politician to give C's money to D" sounds fairly innocuous, if slimy. What you leave unstated is that bringing the government into it in this way implies the point of a gun, the governmental trump card. Government taxation IS theft, plain and simple, since if I refuse the government, I ultimately face that point-of-a-gun coercion.

And if the government is permitted to take my property from me at the point of a gun, then how can we say that we HAVE private property, ultimately? What we actually have is a polite fiction of private property, mutually agreed on by all parties, and it is considered uncouth to point up the fact.

In reality, we have here in the U.S. a mix of private property and socialism, but when discussions like this come up, it is hard for me to forget that we are all, in fact, slaves to the state in a way; we just all agree not to rudely point out the thin, gilded collars around our respective necks.

Mr. Right
Very well said! Exactly the point I was getting at myself...

Sowell is on the mark
The difference between Sowell and the left is that Sowell explains the way things work in the real world and the left views everything thru some utopian filter of "fairness" or "how things are supposed to be. In the real world people are rewarded according to the value they create. The more people who find the fruits of your labor to be desirable the more you will be rewarded in the long run eg. a best-selling author will make more than one whose works only sell a few copies. Yes there are exceptions. The economy, like any system developed by humans, can be gamed.

The real reason the left hates Wal-Mart so intensely is that the company has brought more real benefit to lower class America than any govt program ever implemented.

Nee
You mentioned the lack of incentive in the Soviet Union. A friend of mine who studied extensively in the USSR in the 70's and 80's reported that the former peasants were allowed to keep about 2 hectares privately for their own use. This land amounted to less than one percent of arable land but provided over 35% of al fresh fruits and vegetables available in the USSR but they were only available through the black market. So your point about incentive was right on - where there was incentive (black market) production exceeded all expectations. Where there was no incentive, even those crops planted were as often as not left to rot in the fields. Starvation was a matter of poor planning and lack of incentive, never a lack of food. To those who say socialism would work if it was done right - the abundant failures we have seen in the USSR, in Cuba, in China are exactly how socialism works. It never works any better than that.

Fergus
Love your handle, just BTW. There is a lag between when I start to post and when I post because of phone interruptions - folks wishing me Happy New Year. Had I read your comments before hitting the post button, I'd have decided they were redundant and not posted. I've read some of your posts before and I think we'd agree on most things. I wish you and yours a Happy and Prosperous New Year. Hopefully those dreaded rich b-st-ds don't take too much of your money and you won't be reduced to the abject poverty the left seems to fear and yet works so assidously to inflict.

Solis
You say you don't support the Dems. I hope you realize that everything I said applies to everyone to the left of the Dems as well.

Anyway, as far as the workers' pay and the exec's pay is concerned, the execs are under no obligation to hire the workers in the first place. Compare it to a household. In my household, we aren't wealthy enough to afford a lawn service. What that means is that the amount I would pay the lawn guys, $0, is infinitely less than the amount I make. Fortunately, I'm not obligated to hire such a service and to pay them minimum wage. As my wife and I get wealthier, we hope to be able to hire a lawn service some day.

Likewise, a company just starting out often cannot hire the people they'd like to hire to do the little things they'd like done, and they often have to do them themselves (like clean-up work). As they grow, they can hire more and more people to do things they formerly had to do themselves. They can now hire janitors, mail people, PR people, etc. But they are obligated to hire none of them. They could continue to do all that themselves.

Which would you rather have, Solis, the execs paying the workers a pittance or the execs not hiring them in the first place?

The reason...
...why the gap between executive wages and workers' wages is a bad thing is because this gap is NOT increased by the blood, sweat and tears of the executives.

yes, of course, if someone really, really wants to make it, almost nothing can stop them. i personally started from almost nothing and made well over $150K last year.

the reason it is a bad thing is because it is done through inside, unethical (and often illegal) machinations of those in political and corporate power -- you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours -- and to hell with everyone else.

this is why the bush admin gave oil companies the single largest federal handout in history in the midst of record profits -- not because those oil companies had to invest so much of their money to get where they are, as roadmaster believes.

once these people are in power and cash, they do everything they can to hang on to their power and cash,, no matter what the cost in terms of lives, livelihood, or morals. it is that simple.

don't get me wrong. i have nothing against the rich -- especially as i, being single with no dependents, could be considered as such.

i do, however, have EVERYTHING against the inbred corporate/political elite that endlessly utilize their power to illegally, unethically, and immorally line their own pockets, as opposed to doing what is right (and legal) for this world.

Mr. Right
The same sentiments right back atcha. I actually would have chosen your post over mine; you actually *explained* the point we were both trying to make, I simply left it at a Socratic-method approach. My reasoning was faulty, however, in that I presumed that by asking the question I would encourage the leftist hack to think for himself. What was I thinking???

As to your comments about the Soviet Union... I would counter that SOME of the starvation in the U.S.S.R. - especially that in the 30s and 40s, under Stalin - was not the result of poor planning, but rather was in fact the result of very EXACT planning. I have never read a good example of why Stalin wanted to exterminate so many of the kulaks by starvation, but it can't be denied by any serious reader of history that that WAS, in fact, his directed intention.

Everybody likes to scream about Hitler, but the fact is that collectivists of all stripes have killed, by orders of magnitude, more human beings than Fascists, Imperialists, and religious nuts combined.

The left just doesn't get it
They encourage class envy and taking what someone else has. That is at the ehart fo the environmental movement, they hate the fact that those they consider hick ranchers have more land than they do, they hate that oil companies make money when they fill their vehicles.
First of all if all of those poor folks invested their cigarette money into savings and more education, they could pull themselves up. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be merely stepping stones to going to school, making summer wages,e tc, they are not supposed to be career choices.
I made 50 cents an hour at my first job washing dishes, I saved, went to school, got married, had kids, saved, went to school, became an RN,worked, saved, raised my sons, went to school, became a CNM, worked, saved, retired with reasonable comfort.
There is no substitue at all for working and saving, and going to school, that moves one up the ladder.

Solis
"The reason why the gap between executive wages and workers' wages is a bad thing is because this gap is NOT increased by the blood, sweat and tears of the executives."

Can you support this assertion, or is it more bloviation?

Is it your assertion that Bill Gates did not exert any blood, sweat, OR tears to get where he is?

Is it your assertion that oil company execs have not exerted any of the same?

Can you support these assertions, if in fact you are making them?

More to the point: If we assume for the sake of argument that you are correct... again, so what? Where is the direct harm to everyone who *isn't* rich?

"yes, of course, if someone really, really wants to make it, almost nothing can stop them."

So what exactly is the problem?

"the reason it is a bad thing is because it is done through inside, unethical (and often illegal) machinations of those in political and corporate power -- you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours -- and to hell with everyone else."

Again, can you support these assertions? Specific examples, please? You mentioned something about Bush and the oil companies... can you lay out for us what Bush supposedly did that was unethical/illegal, and when, and why it was bad?

Earth to Solis
Wealth is created when someone makes a good or performs a service that has value to someone else. The supply of wealth is potentially infinite. The wage gap is based on a concept called realtive scarcity(supply and demand). The pool of potential janitors is much larger than the pool of potertial CEOs relative to the demand for them, thus the bigger paycheck. Millions of people play golf, but only a few hundred play anywhere nearly as well as Tiger Woods, thus his winnings last season totalled $9.9 million(not counting endorsements etc.). Don't think that's fair? Grab your clubs and try out for Q-school. The PGA Tour is the ultimate meritocracy, only those who play well enough get paid, everyone starts the tournaments even and plays the same course by the same rules.

Solis: One specific question
In your first post, you wrote:

"thomas sowell, you are an absolute disgrace to your race."

Do you mean the human race, or the black race? I am just curious.

The rich don't GR and the Poor don't GP
How many jobs were created during the boom Reagan and Clinton years? Not 40 million, but over 440 million. At the same time, 400 million jobs were destroyed (I prefer to call this process - mirror image of Schumpeter - "destructive creation".)
Some Rich get much richer, some poor stay poor. But the vast majority of us, rich and poor, move from one income "quintile" to the next as this destructively creative process continues inexorably. I have been an investment banker, consultant, administrator, lawncare provider, carpet cleaner, construction laborer, and think tank director.

Where do you think I am on the rich/poor scale? I have been in different income quintiles in each of the last four decades. I am not unusual. And although the trend to move from one quintile to others has slowed ever so slightly during the last decade, it is by no means rigidly moving to stasis. The only group that stays in stasis is the group that relies primarily on the dole.

So let's hear it for "seep up" economics, in which the rich today are, by and large, people we did not know 10 years ago, and the rich 10 years ago are people we did not know 20 years ago. I assure you, the Rich ten years from now will by and large not be the same people we know today. Of course there are exceptions (Gates/Buffitt[sp?]). But as we use "the ultimate resource", our minds, this process of destructive creation will continue, the Rich will change, and the poor will change.
Tim Cranston

Whew
You guys are really putting it to Solis -- to absolutely no avail. Solis feels, not thinks. He/she doesn't care about cause and effect or how things work. Solis feels the gap between rich and poor in this country is bad. He can't explain it or defend it. He doesn't care that the system which produces this disparity also has produced a level of "poverty" which would translate to luxury for over half of the world's population. Solis would complain if hung on a new rope.

Solis: Upon reflection...
... it occurs to me that you shifted the terms of the debate. At first, you simply said "the gap between rich and poor is growing." When asked why that is necessarily a Bad Thing, you then shifted to "because it is done through inside, unethical (and often illegal) machinations..."

So if the gap between rich and poor were growing, but that gap-increase were accomplished by purely ethical and legal means, would you then be fine with it? Or is it your assertion that, were the executives-in-power to employ only means that you would find ethical/moral/strictly legal, then the gap you posit would NOT be increasing?

Just curious where your thinking on this is going...

Fergus
I don't want to hijack the thread on this point but you are correct in your assertion that Stalin intentionally caused the famine. By conservative estimations, Stalin was responsible for the direct or indirect murder of nearly 40 million Russians. His reasoning was the difference between White Russians and Red Russians. Not too dissimilar to Shiites and Sunnis - both communist but of different political parties. Lenins was always considered more benign than Stalin but in truth, he started the policies that Stalin ended up carrying out with such zeal.

Back in the 70's I took a course on Soviet History more or less on a whim, because it fit into my schedule and that one more history class put yet one more minor course of study on my long list. It turned out to be one of the most fascinating courses I ever took. What I find alarming is the similarity in methodology between Lenin and the Bolshevik party and modern day leftists in the Demcrat party. They are much more subtle but their focus on controlling media, controlling education, diminishing the role and the very definition of family, their re-definition of words and terms (a part of that whole Political Correctness thing) are right out of Lenin's playbook. Lenin was a brilliant revolutionary and campaigner but discovered that actually governing was a whole lot more work and not nearly so easy as he led himself to believe when he was trying to overthrow the Tsar. Does that remind you of any recent presidents? When I watch the current activities of liberals in this country and look at what they've been doing since the 60's (very quietly) and then look at what happened in the Soviet Union and other communist countries, I tremble.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled subject . . .

Donaldd: Tripe
"Been to Wal Mart lately?"

At least twice a week.

"Seen any 18 year olds working there?"

Yes, lots.

"I mean other than Christmas time when business is greatest. No you haven't and neither have I."

Yes, I have. Lots. At every Wal Mart I have ever been to. If you haven't, then either you weren't looking, or you are lying.

"The average age of Wal Mart workers is near 40 years old."

From where do you get this statistic? Sounds made up to me.

"But when you are the largest employer in town you can pay what you want. If you don't want to work for $5.00 per hour go work somewhere else and there is nowhere else."

This is a red herring.

My wife started at Wal-Mart in 1997 (she has moved on to other things now) at the register of the jewelery counter, with no college education and no experience, making $7.25 an hour. This by the way was after Sam Walton died, so that argument won't work.

If all Wal-Mart paid was $5, they wouldn't have anyone working there. Around here, you don't even *start* at $5, you start at $8. A co-worker of my wife's works a second job at Wal-Mart as a low-level manager making $18 per hour - this is not an exec, this is one of those people who walks around with a key to open up the register for cashiers. If it comes down to it, she will quit the other job in favor of her Wal-Mart job; she has said this.

Pop quiz genius: The current CEO of Wal-Mart, do you know where in the company he started?

Mr. Right
George Orwell must have taken the same history course and then wrote Animal Farm and 1984.

Fergus
"The reason why the gap between executive wages and workers' wages is a bad thing is because this gap is NOT increased by the blood, sweat and tears of the executives."

Can you support this assertion, or is it more bloviation?

more accurately, what i am saying is that even recent history is filled with examples of supposed top-tier CEO's who have utterly failed at their position while thousands of workers are laid off or their wages stagnate and their pensions are raided. see ford and gm for just two examples, but you know as well as i do thst there are more everywhere. please don't tell me you are unaware of this.
________________________________

More to the point: If we assume for the sake of argument that you are correct... again, so what? Where is the direct harm to everyone who *isn't* rich?

the direct harm is that living wages are simply NOT rising along with CEO's wages. obviously, this is unfair. worse yet, american workers are being laid off while their jobs are being outsourced at an unprecedented rate, largely die to incompetence and greed. (see below)
________________________________

"yes, of course, if someone really, really wants to make it, almost nothing can stop them."

So what exactly is the problem?

(And...)

"the reason it is a bad thing is because it is done through inside, unethical (and often illegal) machinations of those in political and corporate power -- you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours -- and to hell with everyone else."

Again, can you support these assertions? Specific examples, please? You mentioned something about Bush and the oil companies... can you lay out for us what Bush supposedly did that was unethical/illegal, and when, and why it was bad?

the reason it's a problem is because the system is being utilized unfairly by those in power to grease the wheels for those who bribe -- i'm sorry, i meant lobby -- them to do their bidding. look at tom delay. look at jack abramoff. examples abound.

and i could give you so many other examples but let's just start with an obvious one. the reason american car companies are suffering so much today is because they have not made miles-per-gallon competitive cars for so long simply because they are in bed with the oil companies, who are in bed with the politicians. but who gets screwed? the american consumer.

an example is that one of the first things reagan did when entering office was to eliminate miles-per-gallon requirements on new cars being built in the u.s. not only was this completely stupid from an environmental point of view, it was asinine from a business perspective. this was a direct, blatant, unethical and immoral handout to the automobile and oil industries that is having it's repercussions today. just ask the 50,000 american auto workers who have been laid off in the past two years because american cars can no longer compete on the world market.

again, i have no problem with the rich. i do have every problem, however, with the sleazy greaseballs who manipulate the system to their and their cronies' advantage through unethical, illegal and immoral means.
________________________________

finally,

In your first post, you wrote:

"thomas sowell, you are an absolute disgrace to your race."

Do you mean the human race, or the black race? I am just curious.

he is a disgrace to both.

i'm in australia and it's 3am. i'm going to bed.

donaldd
Yeah, the average Wal-Mart worker may be 40 but the hugely trumpeted minimum wage they supposedly pay is not minimum - at least not in our area. They start around $8.50. They also promote from within - to the point that their current CEO started out as a cashier!

Before we get so worked up over Wal-Mart, we should be reminded of Jon Edwards, recently announced candidate for Democrat party presidential nominee. This is according to a story I read on the internet. He apparently is disgusted with Wal-Mart over their low paying jobs. So when he wrote a book he refused to have a signing at Wal-Mart. He had it instead at the Barnes and Noble in the vicinity. Funny thing was, the B & N at which he had the signing pays their help $5.50 and the Wal-Mart at which he refused to have the signing has a starting wage of $7.00. Oh, the unfairness of it all!!

Mr. Right
"What I find alarming is the similarity in methodology between Lenin and the Bolshevik party and modern day leftists in the Demcrat party."

I can't remember who said it, but there is a quote that I just love: "Liberalism is Communism, a bite at a time."

No, despite everything, the Communists never went away, and Socialistic thinking is alive and well. Basically it comes down to pessimism (compare Keynes and Malthus to Friedman and Reagan) and a belief that authority can, ultimately, set everything right. Ironic, really, since a core idea of the 60s was that of throwing off authority, rebelling against "The Man," when what it seems they really want is for authority to make everything right. The scary ones are the ones who want to BE that authority - witness Soros, for example.

Donald said,
"But when you are the largest employer in town you can pay what you want. If you don't want to work for $5.00 per hour go work somewhere else and there is nowhere else".

That would mean it is time to move to where the better paying jobs are, right? There is always somewhere else to go. If you took all of an individuals options away so they were "stuck" so to speak. That is the point where an american looking at the situation would say TOUGH-LUCK!!

I just do not think that condition exists in this country. If anyone wants to add to their net worth they just have to work harder, get educated, learn a profession and hopefully catch a break along the way, or they can sit in poverty. You have the freedom to do that in america.

11h

Another Exercise for Solis
Solis you should quit while you are ahead. Right now your pants are down around your ankles and folks are hitting your bare bottom with a giant wooden paddle. How do you stand the humiliation.

I too have an exercise for you. Let's suppose you are the CEO for Exxon. You work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, under an incredible amount of stress. Your days consist of making decisions about where and how to spend billions of the company's dollars. Each drilling location has its associated risk / reward and the unknowns are too many to list here. If you get it right, Exxon profits, the stock goes up, and millions of shareholders are happy. Shareholders include pension funds from around the globe, IRAs, mutual fund owners, TIA CREF (that's the fund the teachers use), etc, etc. Exxon also gets bigger as company, hires more people, and makes energy about as cheap as possible.

How much should we pay you? We being the shareholders that have gained so much from the fruit of your labor. Or would you rather the government decide how much you get paid? What is fair? Why?

Mr.Right and Fergus
I confess to being az TH Junkie today...lots to discuss. Loved all of your posts and learned a few things,too. Solis should be ignored as Gently99 pointed out,he feels rather than reasons.

Solis
So basically, what it comes down to for you is that the supposed widening of the gap between rich and poor is bad because

1. It's unfair, and
2. It makes for bad business, causing companies to go out of business and people to lose their jobs.

My response.

1. Life isn't fair. Boo freakin' hoo. The job of government is NOT to make life more fair.

2. This makes the whole thing a self-correcting problem. If you are correct in your analysis, then ultimately all the companies who are run by such greedy, awful execs will go out of business, and those greedy, awful execs will be out of jobs. In the meantime, the honest, ethical companies will survive, and everyone as a whole will learn. Will people suffer? Yes. But people ALWAYS suffer.

Here's the problem with what you're saying: it implies that "Something must be done!" Presumably, that something must be done by the government. But history shows that governmental remedies are always worse than the disease, ALWAYS.

Moreover, you are asking the wrong question; you are asking, "Are the poor better or worse off *compared to the rich*?" We, your opponents, including Dr. Sowell, are asking "Are the poor better or worse off compared to how they were before?"

But I think I am giving you too much credit; your utter dismissal of any of Dr. Sowell's arguments tell me that you aren't asking any questions at all; you are simply reacting in knee-jerk fashion, and ignoring the objective data.

Donaldd
Do you have any actual objective data on which you form your opinions about "good execs" vs. "bad execs"? Or are you just saying what *feels* right to you?

As to your classifying Bill Gates as a "good" exec: there was a time, less than a decade ago, when it was common wisdom that Gates was the devil incarnate. He was a horrible thief who turned out a shoddy product that railroaded poor, benighted computer users into using second-rate software; they simply had no choice. Now the Conventional Wisdom has moved on from Bill to the evil Oil Companies, leaving you now free to characterize Bill as one of the Good Ones.

It was bovine waste then, and it's bovine waste now.

The curve
We can argue all we want to about the poor, the rich, etc and how much money everyone should make. The fact of the matter is, society is a bell shaped curve. There will always be the super rich people and there will always be extremely poor people (the tails of the curve). And then there will be the 80% in the middle who make up the majority of average people. Liberals do not understand the curve and try to truncate one end by redistributing wealth. It will never work.
So the question most people are really asking is, "How does the "average" guy get ahead in life?
The answer is, Don't be average!

Lotteries and poor people
Lots of poor people have won the lottery and it hasn't done them any good. Face it, Solis, giving poor people higher wages may not do them any good. Our culture today (thanks to the 60s) encourages people to think they can do whatever they want and to have it all and to get angry if they can't. The result is that poor people make bad decisions that cause them to remain poor.

But let's say that Wal-Mart began paying its workers a higher wage. They would probably have to lay off some people, who would then end up unemployed or else working at the same wage that they did at Wal-Mart. Within Wal-Mart, the smaller number of workers would offer less service. The lines at the check-out would be longer, for example. I lived in a poor neighborhood at one time, and I hated the length of the lines at the local grocery store. I often waited 20-30 minutes in them.

As Sowell has stated elsewhere, there aren't solutions but trade-offs. If you help the poor by raising the wages of Wal-Mart employees, you can bet that the poor would be hurt in some other way.

Solis is gone but no less wrong
Solis made the comment that the problems in the automobile industry in America today stem from Reagan's deregulation of the CAFE standards. That is so wrong as to to be criminal. CAFE standards increase the cost or production with no economic benefit. Rolling back those standards in reality only prolonged their agony. The real cause of the pain in the American auto industry is the sweetheart contracts the UAW worked out in the fat years. The defined benefit retirement packages and the insanely expensive health-care packages. U.S. automakers spend thousands on each and every automobile for those expenses for which they receive no benefit in producing the automobile. If we want to make U.S. manufacturing more competitive, we need to completely privatize Social Security, we need to eliminate (gradually so as not to wipe out the promised benefits of those older workers already sucked into the system) defined benefit pension plans and replace them with defined contribution plans and we need to completely do away with a health care system where the funding goes to the provider instead of the consumer. We should replace the current insurance scams with user-controlled Health Savings Accounts. What we have gotten ourselves into is a quagmire of deferred payment plans that cost the manufacturing sector billions each year but for which they receive no benefit.

You heard it here first because most folks are too afraid of Big Unions to say this - the reason most of the "exported" manufacturing jobs leave this country is to get out from under the hidden costs imposed by union contracts that have never served the workers, only the union heirarchy. Union jobs don't pay more, they cost more. Unions were never necessary in this country - I would postulate that their existence was encouraged by the international socialist movement and their existence in this country has been supported by the leftists whose goal is socialism. Is there any group that ballyhoos more about class and the evils of capitalists making profits? In my state, we have lost thousands of jobs to overseas competition. In nearly every case, they were the so-called good paying union jobs. Meanwhile, non-union jobs in the same industry and that pay just as well are staying. Because the total cost of production can be competitive when there is not the hidden cost of union socialism. Oh, and BTW, one of the very large local employers which is an automotive supplier and which is non-union keeps lots of jobs in the area. They also put a set amount of money into each employee's "retirement fund" on an hourly basis. Folks who have been employed there for 20 years or so may have upwards of million dollars on which to retire. So much for the theory of non-union jobs impoverishing workers.

A Summary of Solis:
Solis puts out a premise, surrounds it with shrill and insult and lets it masquerade as an argument. Other posters respond pretty much with equal or superior insult so Solis comes back and accuses everyone of not being able to refute his “basic premise.”

Posters then proceed to refute said premise. Solis then changes the subject. Well, he rephrases his premise and later starts to backpedal. This is probably blood in the water, given the way he asked for trouble in the first place.

The race card he threw in earlier gets called back on him.

Solis writes one last blast and concludes with how late it is and that he’s going to bed.


Solis dreams he is the champion of the world.

Basics
Business employees, especially including executives, are paid based primarily upon the impact their decisions and actions can have upon the company. That's why we talk about "level of responsibility." On that basis, compare a CEO and an hourly wage employee. Lib dudes - try to gain some appreciation of the VAST difference. Please.

There is also another important factor operating on compensation: market demand versus supply for particular knowledge, abilities and experience. CEOs are not born with a unique golden gene. They gain an education and grow through the ranks to reach that rarified level. Most of us will never get there, but then there wouldn't be enough jobs to go around if we did.

Liberals behave as if all the highly compensated CEOs in the world just woke up one morning and someone handed them a cushy position which is paying "too much." Pathetic, and indicative of the typically ignorant, illogical world view of closet socialists.

drpete
So well said.

Donaldd
Don't assume we are as stupid as you are. No, you didn't use the word "Good exec" and "bad exec," but that does not in any way lessen the fact that that is EXACTLY the dichotomy you were setting up. Reading comprehension may be among your deficits; it is not among mine.

That was a truly pathetic attempt at a dodge.

donaldd
The Wal-mart workers are working as many hours as they and Wal-Mart agree to. That's between the two of them and I choose not to get involved.

The bottom line is this. Employment is a mutually agreeable thing. One of my college professor friends who was in charge of the Womens' Studies program at her college was decrying the fact that women are paid so much less than men. After pointing out the total fallacy of her arguments and the faulty data on which her assertions were based, I told her that at the company I was managing at the time there were some women who were paid less than some of the men and I knew why. She, of course, thought she was going to get some "inside the conspiracy" stuff here and she became all ears. I then told her that the reason they got paid what they did was that we offered them a salary number and they agreed to it and showed up for work every day at that rate. That is exactly how employment works. The only amount I have to pay anyone is the amount that it takes to get them to work. If they don't provide enough for me to pay them that amount we have no deal and they don't work. If they are good workers, I only have to pay them more than my competition will pay them so that they provide their good efforts for me instead of my competition. No rocket science here and no government interference required.

Donaldd: PS, re: "Good Exec," etc.
It should be noted that Bill Gates is no longer among the active executives of Microsoft; he is now one of the owners who sits back and collects their money.

Second, an executive's job is the same, whether they are an owner/executive, or a "hired gun": To make the business more profitable, more efficient. It is exactly the same, either way.

Envy for liberal Gates..
Those who envy Gates should learn Linux & stop purchasing MS Windows & office; build their own PC & install the freeware that's available.

Those upset that exec & owner Left ing Gates makes more than his employees? Start your won business with your own capital, paying everyone an equal wage regardless if they're mop jockies or execs or the owner. It would be interesting to see how successful your business would become.

" THOU...
...SHALT NOT COVET...ANYTHING THAT IS THY NEIGHBOR'S "

-GOD

dashing dave
You write about the loss of incentive if the government takes our wages to redistribute. Consider what is happening in Sweden where generous welfare benfits have resulted in too many people not working. Government has tried to limit the time on welfare and ,you guessed it, the people took to the streets.
Many of you have cited the consequences of rasing the minimum wage and interfereing in Wal-Mart wages etc. Rush Limbaugh constantly reminds us that for the democrats, the results of their actions do not matter no matter how dire the outcome. It is the good intentions that matter most.

a further note about Wal-Mart
My wife has pointed out that the "Greeter" positions at Wal-Mart were created SPECIFICALLY from an altruistic motive; these are not positions that Wal-Mart needed to make their business run more efficiently. Rather, Wal-Mart perceived that there was a segment of society, poor retirees whose Social Security didn't quite cover their needs, and created these positions which pay well enough to enhance the retirees' lives, but not so much as to threaten their Social Security benefits.

So tell me again why Wal-Mart is evil...

loco
Yep, bingo. Witness also the riots in France anytime the government threatens to do anything to endanger the cushy social contract that guarantees perfect job security. HUGE riots in Paris a couple summers ago, simply because the government wanted to create the *possibility* that workers under the age of 22 could get fired for cause. The thing is, in twenty years or so we will all witness the result, when one by one all these countries collapse under the weight of their own Socialist tendencies.

And as George Will has pointed out, the single most important political value to the Left is compassion.

donaldd
Yes it is mutually agreeable and ANY EMPLOYEE can and should negotiate wages, benefits. But before you can negotiate or bargain for anything, you need to offer something. If I need a ditch dug I'll negotiate with whomever wishes to do it but before I will enter into negotiations they need to make some sort of guarnatee that they know how to dig a ditch and have the wherewithal to do so. If 2 people want to dig the same ditch, I'm going to award it to the one who will give me the best value for my money. So if you want to bargain, you need something to offer. If the only skill you have to offer is showing up when you feel like it, taking breaks when you feel like it and criticizing management, your skill set is not in much demand complicated by the fact that there is a glut of supply in that market, leaving you with no bargaining chips. Or you can be like a fellow that was hired to be a janitor in a company at which I was consulting. He had been laid off and desparately needed a job to support his family because he refused to go on welfare. Because of his work ethic and the fact that he always tried to give extreme value for his wages he was promoted within months to machine operator where he studied on his own time and nickel to improve himself, from there he went on to supervisor and within 2 years of his being hired as a janitor was a Director of Operations. He had lots of native intelligence going for him and that extreme work ethic. Those were his only bargaining chips but it was enough. The only people I hear whining about not being able to find a job are the losers that think their very existence should be rewarded with a huge salary. Mutually agreeable employment means that the employer needs to get something as well as the employee. If you have nothing to offer you will get nothing in return.

Money and power
Success by luck or hard work is fine. Gates and Buffett are great examples of that. A belief in success at any price is where the problems lie. I believe a country has an obligation to protect its solidarity and independence from disparate foreign powers. I see the US forgetting that responsibility and opening the US to anyone and everyone who wants to make a buck.

This propensity is opening our borders to Latin gangs, filling the pockets of the communist Chinese, providing conduits for money to terrorist organizations, illegal profiteering from the war, and pure, quietly sanctioned, fraud.

My problem with Wal-Mart is buying from the Chinese just because it is cheap. All you socialist and communist abhorring right wing Wal-Mart shoppers should take a good hard look at what China is doing with your money. 200 billion to your pal in Iran for starters. Capitalism at all costs is too expensive.


Solis -- dear dear child,
Yes, it's not fair. It's just that ALL the systems where some leftist, totalitarian, and above all moral know-it-all gets to say who gets how much are worse and are less fair. Business cronies get replaced with government cronies get replaced with social class or old-school-tie cronies get replaced with some other kind of cronies. The poor and the rich all together get lousy murderous medical care in situations like that in the UK where a hospital was actually fined for increasing its efficiency and where new and radical cures can't be tried until they jump through ever more numerous government hurdles.

Look around you. There is lots of data. This may not work as well as you'd like, and your apparent prejudices against your darker-skinned brethren seem to lead you to advocate a system where the industrious in outher countries are not rewarded as well as the industrious of your race, class, and country.

You want to abolish the best because it isn't perfect. But what you'll end up with is not nothing, but something far worse than the best.

What is this, a program to guarantee occupation for people who like to complain? Go ahead and complain. But the rest of us have work to do, so please don't expect us to listen.

FROM SOMEWHERE COMES THE STATISTIC...
...THAT 'UNIONS' 'REPRESENT' -

7% OF PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS
37% OF PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS

DID PLUNDER ATTRACT?

IN THE ABSENCE OF PUBLIC - SECTOR 'PROFITS', SHOULD THEY BE PROHIBITED ?? (NO PROFIT = NO INEQUALITY = NO NEED FOR 'COLLECTIVE BARGAINING' ?)
...CURIOUS


modernone
"My problem with Wal-Mart is buying from the Chinese just because it is cheap. All you socialist and communist abhorring right wing Wal-Mart shoppers should take a good hard look at what China is doing with your money. 200 billion to your pal in Iran for starters. Capitalism at all costs is too expensive"

That's all well and good, but what specific remedy do you propose? Capitalism at all costs may be expensive, but granting government excessive power to regulate is ruinous. That includes telling businesses with whom they may or may not do business.

Donaldd
'"And as George Will has pointed out, the single most important political value to the Left is compassion."

And as Mr. Will so aptly means; Those on the Right have no Compassion.'

If that is truly what you take away from that quote, then you are even stupider than I had yet estimated. And I had already put you in the bottom quintile, just above chimps and actors.

'The single most important political value of the Right is Fear.'

Yep. Definitely have to rate you lower than chimps. Not sure about actors though. You might still have the edge over Sean Penn and Matt Damon. Certainly you still rate as smarter than Gwyneth Paltrow - at least for the present.

The shell game of the left
is to criticize capitalism for all its many faults while ignoring the question, what have you got that's better? In reality. Not pie in the sky theory and wishful thinking.

If government is going to make private business more ethical, What gurantee is there that those in government who's task is to deliver heaven on earth are going to be any more ethical?

All you have to do is look at what has happened when it has been tried in other countries.

One of the constants in life is that the power hungry and greedy always gravitate toward the power centers in any society. If they are refused entry to the business world, they will find a place in government. We already have enough of them in government. As things stand, the present distribution of them between business and government may already be as good as it gets.

Putting it another way, it isn't true that the efficiency of every system can be improved incrementally forever. At some point, you will drive it into the ground. That is what the left is doing to this country.

DB
In the immortal words of Ed MacMahon to Johnny Carson, "You are correct, sir!"

I posted earlier about auto companies and unions. What is more scandelous is teachers' unions and their contracts. One of our local school districts is spending $1700 per student in the school district on pensions and health care benefits for RETIRED teachers. That doesn't include the expenses for current teachers. And a goodly number of those retired teachers have started 2nd careers where they can undercut the competition on price because they have guaranteed income and guaranteed health care of the most luxurious sort. Where was the lament about fair? It was here just a moment ago . . .

No Wealth Gap in North Korea
Dr. Sowell's basic premise is that free market transactions better reflect the value of someone's labor than the iron fist of government. This is such a glaring truth that anyone can see it, yet many on the left go through contortions trying to deny it. It's part of the "moral exhibitionism" that leftists find irresistible.

His other premise -- that those with the strongest convictions are often held by the least informed -- is amply illustrated by Solis. If Solis is so outraged by the gap between rich and poor, he ought to change residence to North Korea where the gap is very small indeed. There, the state has wisely seen to it that no one unfairly becomes rich at the expense of the workers. There, he would enjoy a perfect utopia of economic justice.

On Wal-Mart, I believe it is Dr. Sowell who has pointed out that in one year's time, the retailer creates more benefits for employees, consumers and shareholders than the federal government has during the past forty years of meddling.


Donaldd, you poor benighted twit
Do you have the slightest notion what the term "full employment" means, economically speaking?

Donaldd, you poor benighted twit
Amusing that you get on me for things you never said, but which you have clearly IMPLIED... then start accusing me of saying things I neither said nor implied. Gwyneth is gaining on you fast, brother.

Nothing is wrong with Compassion in its proper place; however, elevating it to primary status serves only to make the one who feels it enjoy their feeling of moral superiority. Moreover, as political values go, Compassion is a runt compared with Self-Reliance, which has the advantage of not only making the bearer feel good, but also of directly improving that person's life.

And, just for the record, ask any conservative, most will agree with me that it is Self-Reliance, and not Fear, that is the overarching conservative political value.

Fear, of course, has its proper place. It is fear of pain which keeps people from touching hot objects. It is fear of early death which causes fat people to get more exercise and eat less. It is fear of starvation which prompts people to work and strive and achieve and do better.

That said, it is awfully precious of you to claim that Fear is primarily a political tool of conservatives. Look at the fear-mongering that was played on the elderly when Bush wanted to reform the dying engine that is Social Security; look at the fear that was fanned among African-Americans in the aftermath of Election 2000. It goes on and on and on; the difference is that the Left wants us all to fear America; the Right wants us to fear those who would destroy America if they could. One seems a WHOLE lot more sensible to me.

Touchet
I find irony in the fact that your last name rhymes with the call in fencing to indicate a point scored.

You must either have an awfully short memory, or have had absolutely zero contact with computer users in the mid to late 1990s. "No one questions Gates' right to his fortune"? What a load! Bill Gates was considered one of the evilest, foulest malefactors in big business for forcing his second-rate operating system on poor, ignorant computer users and thereby making a mint!

Second, it's not all about Ken Lay and Enron. "Obfuscation," you say? Pot-kettle-black!

Third, the very fact that you use the word "obscene" in your first line, in connection with CEO compensation, gives you away.

Finally: Sowell explains economic concepts clearly and concisely, extracting examples from the modern political scene. "Obfuscation"? At this point my POMERANIAN understands simple economics better than you Leftist twits.

Gene Touchet
What makes you think Sowell and "his pundit colleagues" are not being truthful? If you have independent knowledge that refutes Sowell, lets see it.

Solis posts, not reads...
Solis has received quite a beating here. But I wonder why he (and/or she) hasn't bothered responding to my original points:
1) if profit didn't exist, neither would a company with its subsequent innovation, job creation, etc...
2) those who decry profits of big companies probably own part of those companies in their own investments. So aren't those millions of americans invested in these companies through mutual funds really the ones living off the blood sweat and tears of the laborers?

Karl Marx never dreamed of a situation where employees at even the evil Wal-Mart could buy into any company they wish and become owners of the means of production. Since they can, how is an income gap a bad thing? I could care less that the heads of the organization I work for make over 20x more than me, as long as I can feed my family.

This obsession with gaps rather than over standards of living is the obsession that Sowell is talking about in these articles. It is dangerous because it is the root of socialism, which has killed millions more people than Wal-Mart ever did.

Solis
So, Solis is in Australia. Assuming that he is in fact an Australian, I assume that it is true then that there are lots of socialists in Australia. Thank God they are in a minority. John Howard is one of the best friends this country has in the War on Terror. That's probably eating Solis' shorts too. Why would he spend so much time worrying about what Wal-Mart pays their employees? Does he work for Wal-Mart? Does he shop there? As a lawyer would say, does he have "standing" to say he is aggrieved? How is he hurt? What a maroon. He might as well move to Europe, no France, and be done with it. Oh, that's right, he won't be able to get a job in France. My bad.

Live Free
He thinks Sowell is being dishonest because what Sowell says goes exactly against everything he believes; he *knows* in his sweet, compassionate, bleeding heart that everything he believes MUST be true, therefore Sowell must be being dishonest.

"Rand"y
In fairness to Solis, it was not him but Donaldd who got panties in a wad over Wal-Mart. It's difficult, I realize, but it serves the argument better if we try to keep our Leftist nitwits distinct.

Fear of the Left is good,
for they see no evil that cannot be appeased. Nor do they understand that the power to tax is the power to destroy, or admit any problem undertaken by government is always made worse. They feel good about giving your money to someone who didn't earn it and demand equality between disparates. What a transparent tyrany they propose, and how shrill they are when exposed.

Thomas Sowell/Townhall Columns
I admire Dr. Sowell's ability to take the seeming complexity out of basic economic market principals. His columns are the highest priority when available in my daily reading and are highly recommended.

Okay people, lighten up a little
The Indian Way

An old Indian chief sat in his hut on the reservation, smoking a Ceremonial pipe and eyeing two U.S. government officials sent to interview him.

"Chief Two Eagles" asked one official, "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen
his progress, and the damage he's done."

The Chief nodded in agreement.

The official continued, "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

The Chief stared at the government officials for over a minute and then calmly replied: "When white man found the land, Indians were running it.

No taxes,

No debt,

Plenty buffalo,

Plenty beaver,

Women did all the work,

Medicine man free,

Indian man spent all day hunting and fishing,

All night having sex."

Then the chief leaned back and smiled ...."Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."




On the Right, Deeds. On the Left Words
Donaldd saith:
-+-+-
And as Mr. Will so aptly means; Those on the Right have no Compassion.'
-+-+-
I recommend the Book "Who Really Cares?" When peple on the left say "Compassion", they mean passing laws that make other people give up control over their assets. When people on the right say "Compassion", they're talking about a personal responsibility, not something they want the government to make somebnody else do. It turns out that people on the right give far more, on a proportional basis, in charitable donations of time and money than do people on the left.

gee - you go away for a little and , , ,
First, donaldd, the key you apparently are missing is that the immigrants you refer to as taking jobs are ILLEGAL. The government is grossly negligent in protecting our borders. All illegals should be summarily shipped back from whence they came. You'd be amazed at what that would do for the economy. Business thinks they are saving money but in reality a large chunk of taxes they now pay could be saved if we eliminated the amount of money spent on education, health care, etc. So while your argument has a tiny kernal of truth to it your analysis is about 180 degrees out of phase.

And your understanding of what unions are doing in their negotiations is apparently limited to what their socialist buddies in the MSM dish out. In reality, they are willing to throw current workers under the train, so to speak, in order to protect the union hierarchies' own benefit and political influence. The UAW has made it clear in negotiations for the past 10 years that cuts in wages and benefits are OK as long as changes that would jeopardize their control of massive pension plans as considered off-the-table. They have duped the general public into believing they are for the little guy when in fact they are Orwellian pigs of the highest order.

And while I'm ranting, Touchet brings up Ken Lay. If time and space permitted, I could demonstrate to you that the entire Enron scandal was precipitated by over-bearing government accounting regulations. Of course, the government's response to the whole thing was to pile another layer of regulations on top, thank you Sarbox. Accountancy (and I thank God every night that I am not an accountant) is quickly becoming a profession very similar to IRS reporting. No matter what you do or how you do it, you could be found in violation of something and prosecuted. GAAP can be followed as closely as you like, I'll guarantee you that some judge somewhere could find you in violation. I almost hate to admit this but I feel sorry for accountants.

Mad Dawg
"When peple on the left say "Compassion", they mean passing laws that make other people give up control over their assets."

Bingo. The so-called Compassion of the left translates as compassion on someone else's dime. I laugh each and every time I read about some Leftist Hollywood mental midget waxing rhapsodic about political issues, as I think about the lavish lifestyles they parade for "Entertainment Tonight" and all the rest. Show me a Hollywood star who lives in a modest, 3 bedroom suburban house, wears clothes bought off the rack at Wal-Mart - or even at Gordman's! - flies coach and eat's at Village Inn, donating the rest to the poor, and maybe THEN I will begin to take seriously their political views. Ditto for execs like Soros, David Geffen, Warren Buffett, Pinch Sulzberger (who probably never saw the inside of a Wal Mart in his life!), and the rest.

feh.
Please remove the extraneous apostrophe I inserted into the word "eats" in my previous post. I will in the meantime hang my head in shame and humiliation.

Mr. Right
re: Enron, I would dearly love to see what you've got. I was under the distinct impression that there was in fact some serious financial mismanagement going on, including direct deception of the stockholders by Lay et al.

Many thanks
Thanks roadmaster, for keeping the basics in mind, and you too, Kathy, for doing the same in your own way.

If it's not to late to add a few (basic) thoughts on WalMart, here goes:

Democrats' ragging on WalMart is self-destruction on a par with Teresa Kerry ragging on Laura Bush during the '04 campaign when she accused the president's wife of never having a "real job." How many millions of American women like Laura Bush were or are librarians or teachers? How many agreed with Teresa that those aren't "real jobs?"

WalMart employs over 1 million Americans and 1.8 million worldwide -- the largest private employer in U.S. history. Many of them move up inside the company over their years of employment. Hundreds of millions of people shop at WalMart for a very good reason -- low prices and good service. All WalMart does is run large, efficient, department stores -- an idea that began centuries ago and has been refined repeatedly ever since. John Hancock, who signed the Declaration of Independence in his distinctive hand, ran department stores in Boston. He was one of the most respected, civic-minded citizens in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

When politicians disparage WalMart's accomplishments, they are in effect telling those workers and shoppers, as Teresa did, that they're a bunch of saps. Not a big vote-getter, I wouldn't think.

The supermarkets we are familiar with arose during the Depression when people had to stretch their food dollars due to severe want. Many people had automobiles but unreliable incomes. They didn't want to rely on small, corner groceries and were willing to drive to larger, cheaper stores. WalMart is only the extension of this principle.

WalMart may someday fade into oblivion through its own mistakes, as did Woolworth who built the first big chain of "5 & 10 cent stores," or it may be obliterated by ham-handed politicians or counterproductive labor agitation. After all, the wisest man in an ancient kingdom when commissioned to post a slogan that would stand for all time above the gates of a majestic, capital city, inscribed: "And this too, shall pass away."

If WalMart should be destroyed, a big chunk of equity value in millions of pensions, many of which support government employees, will go with it.

But no matter what, you can be absolutely certain that another merchant will arise in WalMart's place to do what they once did. The need for commerce will not pass away.

If
I were not a conservative capitalist already, Dr. Sowell and the posters would have convinced me. A management course i took relied heavily on 2 phrases -- "Judging by results......", and "Do more of what works, do less of what doesn't work, try new things once in a while."
Solis and Donaldd care nothing for results. They see the warts and disparities inherent in rewarding merit, which implies lesser reward for sloth and incompetence. Then throw out the baby with the bath water by wanting to use solutions which have been demonstrated over and over to be failures. They ignore success stories like Singaport, Ireland and Hong Kong, which became islands of prosperity merely by reducing taxes on captital gains, thus attracting the capital which raises productivity, thus enabling employers to pay employees more. Did the capitalists make money? You betcha. Did the employees make much more? Of course. But socialists are blinded to the overall good by seeing unfairness in the rewards to the investors. Anger,envy,gluttony,greed,pride,lust and sloth. I see the word greed is a favorite with the left, and its certainly one of the deadly 7. Envy, sloth and anger, however are 3.

In a perfect world...
It's a shame that so many invectives are hurled back and forth by educated folks with differing views of the situation. There is something to be learned in all of the posts.
In a perfect world, the boards of corporations would always act in the fiduciary interest of the shareholders. There would be no collusion between directors and CEOs, no golden parachutes for inept executives, etc. Ken Lay and Dennis Kozlowski would never have gotten to the top of their respective ladders. The take away lesson is to read your proxy statements, use your heads and don't always vote for what the board recommends.
In a perfect world, moneyed interests would never use the coercive power of government regulations to stifle competition and/or boost profits. The take away lesson is to not drink the Kool-Aid from either political party, use your head and vote for responsible politicians.
On the one hand, a true free market has no compassion. On the other hand, a true, free market is not corrupted by deceit.
When an oligarchy become so rich and powerful that it functions as a shadow government, buying politicians and negating the citizens' vote, there can be grave social consequences. Keep your powder dry for self defense, whatever your political persuasion.

Fergus
re: Enron. I'll try to make this as simple as possible while keeping the facts straight.

The initial problem started with reporting in (of all places) the automotive industry and their practice with suppliers of handing out long term contracts and making various levels of commitment to purchase contracted parts. Near term is listed as shipping requirements. Of course, that shows up as a liability on the balance sheet because you have incurred the liability of receiving those goods. Further out into the horizon, automotive companies give authorizations to fabricate and to procure. What that means is that if they decide to balance out a program they will pay you for any parts you have made up to the authorized to fabricate level and for any raw materials you have purchased up to the authorized to procure level. While that was initially used for forecasting and planning by suppliers, the government decided that any of those commitments had to be included on the balance sheet as a liability. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that for a behemoth the size of GM that figure runs into the billions - you are basically talking about all of their component purchases for the next 6 months. So the automotive world lobbied for the right include anticipated customer orders as assets the same way accounts receivable is an asset. The logic was that if an anticipated account payable must be included as a liability, an anticipated account receivable should be allowed as an asset. That notion actually precipitated a sea change in the way automobile dealers interact with the auto companies. They don't place orders so much as receive their allocation because the auto company places their orders well out into the future. You may have noticed in the past several years that your friendly automobile salesman is far less interested in determining what you need and far more interested in convincing you that what he has on the lot is exactly what you need. One of the unintended consequences.

To translate that into Enron, many companies adopted that practice of using anticipated orders as assets even if there were not firm orders in hand. That was shady, of course, so I'm not trying to convince anyone that Ken Lay or his cronies are blameless here but it doesn't take a real stretch of the imagination to see where this was all headed. The theory at Enron (and it was correct for many years) was that as long as there was a booming economy the energy contracts they traded in would always be increasing so over-stating customer orders a bit was not a problem and they went along fat dumb and happy for years doing exactly that. Where their house of cards collapsed was when there was a bit of an economic downturn, there was the government manufactured energy crisis in California and suddenly the robust expectations fell short. When this news hit and investor confidence waned it was like a run on the bank during the depression and the stock price fell like a rock, hence all of their capitalization evaporated. In reality, the demise of Enron was the result of a feeding frenzy based on reports that they had reported assets not yet in evidence. In some cases they had locked in supplier contracts that were over-priced and having fewer assets than you reported while having greater liabilities than you wanted to admit is never a good balance.

You may recall all of the employee sob stories about the loss of savings. Those losses were real in terms of what the employee lost on paper but only a small percentage of what was lost was a loss of employee principal. In other words, they were given or purchased stock at $1.00. The value quickly rose (with no further investment on their part) to 10.00. When it then went down to 10cents they can legitimately claim they lost $9.90 whereas in reality they lost 90 cents of the dollar they invested. I don't say that to minimize their loss, just to look at it from a different perspective. I'd also bet that if they had invested that dollar and then sold it for 10 they'd bellyache if the government wanted to tax them windfall profit taxes (and rightfully so because the government takes way too much in taxes already).

This is kind of a thumbnail sketch. Like I say, I am not attempting to exonerate the officers of Enron. But I think it does point out that their intentions may have been honorable and they were following the spirit of the accounting and reporting rules. IMHO government regulations have caused more crime than they have prevented. I think it was Will Rogers (but I may be wrong) who said that when the government instituted an income tax they immediately made liars out of everyone with a job.

When is too much really too much?
Interesting column Doctor. To play devil's advocate; how much is too much? If an American man invents a machine that is so popular that the world makes him a trillionare, does he deserve it? How about if that same man uses that money to invest in a forign country which is in competition with us? Or, what if he and others of vast wealth use their power to 'buy' the people's representives and they in turn create favorable tax and investment legislation?
These things happen on a continual basis. Over the past hundreds of years our government has sold out the common voters that put them in power over and over. Cartels have at times ran the country and some believe they do today. 'Special interests' have had much more power than ever did the ballot box. President Eisenhower spoke of a giant military/industrial complex. This complex supposedly had (and perhaps still has) great influence on our government. In earlier years John D. Rockefeller reportedly used his oil wealth to control the country's oil industry; that is until government eventually and belatedly came up with laws to limit his power.
So, should capitalism be scrapped in favor of some other system? National Socialism? Communism? Libertarianism? Where have other systems worked better than ours? More fairly? Europe has turned it's self into a giant welfare state with it's socialistic form of government. China attempts to have capitalism and communism exist side by side which I believe will lead to a giant upheaval. A dangerous upheaval for us. Too often totalitarian governments which find their power slipping resort to war as a remedy for regaining control.
Russia has flirted with a quasi- democratic form of government since the fall of communism but lately finds it's self drifting back into it's old Soviet ways thanks to President Putin and his merry band of ex-KGB buddies.
So, it looks like capitalism with all of it's problems is here to stay for a while. Even Nancy and Hillary et al will find turning the USA into a Marxist/socialist paradise a daunting task.
So, to answer the question; Is the rich man worth his riches? The only answer is; Who knows? In the land of the free the answer is not so important as the right to ask it. We can make up our own minds about that and everything else. In addition we can proselytise our faith or lack to our hearts content. Pray that precious freedom of speech is never lost, for then the answer will be a sad and unutterable, no.

Public Sector Unions

.....Db...

.....you are correct ...there is no reason for public sector unions to exist and they should be banned ....they are nothing more than self-serving socialists who suck on the government teat at the expense of the taxpayers ...COLOSSUS

Enron Stock losses

.....Mr. Right...

.....your Enron analogy reminds me of a joke ...

.....A horse player borrows $2 from his wife to go to the racetrack ...he bets the first race and wins so he parlays his winnings on the second race and wins again ...feeling that he is on a winning streak he decides to parlay his winnings again ...he does this successfully for nine straight races and has winnings of a million dollars ...he loves the horse in the last race and bets it all and loses ...when he gets home his wife asks how he did ..."I lost the two dollars", he replied. .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
Along the lines of fraud, how about this one:

A fellow buys a mule from a farmer and the mule dies. Of course, the guy wants his money back but the farmer refuses - a deal is a deal. Some time later the farmer looks the guy up and wants to somehow make things right. The guy tells him never mind, he made out all right. Seems he held a raffle for the mule, sold 100 tickets at $2 apiece and made a profit of $198. "But that's fraud," exclaimed the farmer, "Didn't anybody catch on?" "Only the winner," said the guy, "and I gave him his $2 back."

IRS collecting taxes is illegal
FergusMacLennan

You said

"In reality, we have here in the U.S. a mix of private property and socialism, but when discussions like this come up, it is hard for me to forget that we are all, in fact, slaves to the state in a way; we just all agree not to rudely point out the thin, gilded collars around our respective necks."

You are right, but it's even worse...The IRS doesn't have the legal right to collect taxes -
check out this documentary produced by Aaron Russo. Here's the link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4312730277175242198&q





Compassionate Dems
The Dems have a long history of being the compassionate party in defense of the "little guy," and knowing so much better than the average bear how to spend someone else's money. I cite the recently published poll that found the Libs to be tight-fisted in their charity spending. Big government is always their answer to whatever social misfortune comes to their attention. Now with the FEMA handling of Katrina victims, we can all observe the failure of big government. We can also be pretty well assured that the Libs will conclude that the problem must be a lack of funding from the public trough.

fork it over to the gubmint
It impairs credibility to argue that the government doesn't have the right to collect taxes, or that it uses force to ENforce taxation, or that it uses force generally. Tax-collecting is one of the activities that define what a government is. Likewise, all government power is based on the implied threat of force. The implied threat of force is what distinguishes government from other institutions.

General Motors might want you to buy its cars, Exxon might want you to buy its gas, but you don't have to do either if you don't want to. On the other hand, if you balk at the sales tax or the taxes on gas at the pump, you get carted off to the clink, lose other property, or both.

You don't have to shop at WalMart; you don't really have to go to school. Look at all the people who are there, sort of, but staring out the window dreaming about other things. At some point of course, opting out of the conventions that bind most people together becomes counterproductive. Wandering around illiterate in a loincloth might be quaint, might even exemplify an extremity of freedom, but its not very practical.

Once we can agree on those basic realities, we can quibble about correct levels or types of taxation, proper use of force etc. which are both the right and duty of a free citizenry.

One of the reasons pacifism (or its wishy-washy cousin, appeasement) will never work as government policy is that it denies the right and duty of government for self-preservation against violent attack. Until the last barbarian is subdued, civilized peoples must be armed against unpleasant contingencies.

A government supported by voluntary contributions, as if it were a church or charity, would get neither enough support to function, nor command the unity of its (admittedly involuntary) taxpayers.

Tomgee, in re: taxation and force
"Once we can agree on those basic realities, we can quibble about correct levels or types of taxation, proper use of force etc. which are both the right and duty of a free citizenry."

You are right in a way, but it helps to remember that taxation is, essentially, armed robbery at its core. It may be necessary armed robbery, but that doesn't change the fact of what it is. The danger of forgetting the essence of the matter is getting into situations like the one where we are now, where are so used to collar that we scarcely notice is the collar keeps growing and growing, getting thicker and heavier and more obtrusive with every passing year. If we keep reminding ourselves of the abhorrence of what we by necessity agree to, then perhaps there is hope that we will never allow the burden to grow too large or onerous.

dratted thing
My last was posted before I was done...

I just wanted to add, a sure sign of the compacency that has set in regarding the government's annual riffling of our pockets is the fact that any cut in taxes is referred to - without serious comment or correction! - as "giveaways"; cutting corporate taxes is referred to as "corporate welfare"; amd so on. This is most disturbing, that money taken in taxes should be thought of as inherently belonging to the government, and that money NOT taken in taxes is considered a gift to the taxee.

Abominable.

Todd
posted that, "The IRS doesn't have the legal right to collect taxes -"

If that's true, why has no one won a court case regarding tax protestation?

Can you site the US Supreme Court ruling that holds the US income tax is unconstitutional?

DavidMac
The tax conspiracy theorists believe the 16th amendment does not really exist and was never ratified.

The REAL solutions, Solis
Come on, folks, lets educate Solis — “my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6) — not ridicule him/her. Brevity is the challenge here. To paraphrase what Solis said, “Anyone who disregards this point — that the gap between workers' and execs' wages, and the rich and the poor, has increased dramatically over the past thirty years — through a vague flurry of apologist, self-serving rhetoric is morally bankrupt.” Here goes, friend Solis, I hope you are paying attention with your thinking cap on.
Democrat pols get richer by promising to steal from A and give to B, while keeping some for themselves and giving little of their own to the poor. Republican pols get richer by passing special monopolistic laws to benefit their businesses, while preaching “free market” and “individual freedom,” and giving a little more of their own to the poor than the Dems.
The “left” borrows for welfare, the “right” borrows for defense weapons. Money-monopoly capitalism and money-monopoly capitalism are the same thing. The Lex Luthors at the top couldn’t care less what “the people” via their “government” borrow money for. They just want to collect the tax-free interest on their treasury bonds.
Labor creates everything useful to humans, therefore, ulitimately, labor pays all real taxes, because taxes have to be paid out of production. Successful businesses pays no real taxes because their taxes are passed on to the consumer as part of overhead. Only failed businesses, via foreclosure, etc., pay real taxes (e.g. grandma’s life savings which capitalized the business are forfeited as loot — “indirect taxation” to creditors).
I do care about your point, Solis — and I’m sure the other posters do too — but the HUGE difference between you and me (most of the other posters are on “my” side) is that you want to use the inherently evil and inevitably corrupting One Ring (see JRR Tolkien) of government power to try to solve the problem. That cannot be done under any circumstances. Coercion is anathema to individual free will. It also constitutes a per se violation of the Golden Rule from a spiritual perspective. The real cause-and-effect laws of the universe are in anathematical conflict with the pseudo coercion-based “laws” and traditions of the dominant members of the suicidally stupid human pecking order. Any attempt to use the One Ring to solve problems will, of necessity, only result in a bigger, more complex, and more pervasive problem than the initial one.
In contrast to your erroneous and emotional notions, freedom lovers prefer to trust the REAL cause-and-effect paradigm of the free marketplace. People will naturally tend to channel their labor in the directions, and to the extent, that best serves them. Nature itself IS inherently a free market because individual humans are created with inherent free will.
The basic human dilemma is the inherent conflict between producer and consumer which exists in the heart and brain of each individual: we all want to get paid as much as possible for our time, education, skills, labor and produce, while paying as little as possible for the “other guy’s” time, education, skills, labor and produce. That problem is almost infinitely increased by the collective activities of society at large, which makes the mechanics (or mathematics, if you prefer) of the situation very difficult for some people to recognize and comprehend.
Real solutions never come from government. “Government” produces nothing. “Government” only takes and coerces. “Government” is only an idea. “Government” is only the dominant members of the stupid-human pecking order. “Government” is how clever people steal the labor of naive people.
The good news is that there are real solutions to this incredibly fraudulent left/right morass (“Republican” and “Democrat” are two sides of the same evil One Ring coin).
The first step is to acquire the education to discern the differences between actual natural realities and human-created delusions, e.g. free will vs. coercion. Then think of ways to make the laws of nature work in favor of the individual.
Most people are ignorant in the areas of law, money, politics and economics. We simply don’t understand how they REALLY work.
Thomas Paine and Walter Williams (and me) would abolish all legal tender laws, along with repealing the 16th Amendment and abolishing the Federal Reserve System (of which the IRS is an integral part). I would abolish “fractional” banking as well.
A law-created monopoly on the creation of money is how “government” controls taxation. A law-created monopoly on force (aka “law” enforcement) is how “government” destroys their political enemies. A law-created monopoly on education is how “government” keeps the working classes (aka “hoi polloi” “labor resources”) sufficiently ignorant for the ruling class to be able to steal their labor.
The U.S. Constitution is actually a pretty smart attempt to establish political and economic freedom. It has just been lied about, via “interpretation”, by “government” judges (various revisionist-history US Supreme Court majorities).
The solution lies in several actions. The banking, legal and medical “professions” have to be totally deregulated so they become subject to free-market forces, which would DRAMATICALLY lower their price in the marketplace almost immediately. There should be no such thing as “unauthorized practice” of law or medicine.
Two websites should be established by brainy freedom activists. A website which catalogued every type of pleading from every type of court case from every conceivable jurisdiction (e.g. federal, state, county), would allow consumers to download various public documents, and use them as templates — changing and names, dates, and places to protect the innocent — to submit their own pleadings in the courts pro se. This would dramatically undermine the ability of lawyers to make fat money via their de facto monopoly on access to justice. The other website would function sort of like the dating websites, where unskilled individuals, like-minded in economics, could network and cooperate to live cheaply together while building pools of capital to go into business for themselves.
As available as the Internet makes information today, I have zero empathy for any individual who doesn’t want to learn. A plethora of good books have been written on how to get rich and how not to ruin your life (e.g. by having kids you are clueless as to how to educate them above the level of socialistic serfdom, or by being too lazy to hump the learning curve on changing your stinking little self-pitying life).
I hope this has been helpful, Solis. ;-)

The REAL solutions, Part II
One more necessary “little” post. The gigantic task of an Amendment to the U.S. Constitution would be required to deregulate the legal profession, since a majority of legislators are lawyers, and the judges would use “separation of powers” rhetoric to prevent changing the legal-profession culture’s monopoly, even if the voters by some miracle managed to elect honest representatives.
The Founders made two mistakes: 1) using the meaningless word “value” when they meant to regulate the EXCHANGE RATIO between US coin and foreign coin, and 2) making US Supreme Court justices appointed for life instead of elected by the people.
Nobody ever thinks to blame presidents, governors and state and federal senators for what the judges do. Contrary to the legal-profession culture’s lies, appointing judges involves more far corrupt “politics” than electing them. If the U.S. Constitution is going to be “interpreted,” it should be interpreted via the people electing the justices who would be forced to run on their beliefs (aka “platforms”) about how what it should mean.
As long term political solution to eliminate the lawyer monopoly over the courts, I propose an amendment to the US Constitution — titled “An Amendment for Judicial Reform to Restore Justice” —containing something similar to the following provisions:
1. It is the wisdom of the people that the U.S. Constitution is a binding specific-performance social contract, not a “living, breathing” document facilitating undemocratic social engineering and judicial activism.
2. It is the wisdom of the people of the United States that it is far more important for judicial officers to obey the rule of law than it is for them to have absolute liability-immune discretion to “obey their consciences” and engage in judicial activism under a “living, breathing” theory of the U.S. Constitution.
3. Election of all judicial officers by the voters in their district (especially US Supreme Court, the policy court). the term of office of all US Supreme Court justices and US Circuit Court of Appeals judges shall be limited to one eight-year term. It is the wisdom of the people that hindsight has clearly proven that life-tenure judicial appointments not only do not operate in favor of protecting the US Constitution as a viable social contract, but actually operate in favor of violating the social contract, under the unwritten rule that “the judge can do whatever he pleases.” It is the wisdom of the people that too much discretion vested in a judge subjects that judge to greater vulnerability to temptations of bribery and corruption.
4. Elimination of judicial (and all other forms of “official”) immunity. In addition to liability for actual and monetary damages, attorney fee sanctions shall be assessed against judicial officers (and all other government officers, except Presidents in time of War formally declared by Congress pursuant to Article 1, Section , Clause) in appropriate cases for the express purpose of deterring willful violations of the cornerstone social-contract principle of rule of law. In all cases of judicial liability, a jury containing no judges or lawyers, shall decide both the facts and the law.
5. Complete elimination of "unauthorized practice" of law, including revocation of all relevant statutes and court rules. It shall be deemed commercial fraud for any judge or lawyer to lie about his educational qualifications.
6. Require all judges to set forth in writing complete findings of fact and conclusions of law for every judicial act they execute, with attorney-fee sanctions imposed against noncomplying judges, and treble attorney-fee sanctions imposed in all cases of willful noncompliance. The express purpose of this point is to deter judicial officers from manipulating the record in any way that would make an appeal by a litigant more difficult or expensive.
7. Except in cases of legitimate national-security concerns, require all such written judicial findings and conclusions to be open for examination and copying by the public, with attorney-fee sanctions imposed against noncomplying judges, and treble attorney-fee sanctions imposed in all cases of willful noncompliance. All cases contesting the legitimacy of a national-security claim shall be tried by a jury containing no judges or lawyers, shall decide both the facts and the law.
8. Prohibit bar-member lawyers from serving as either judges or legislators, due to self-evident conflict of interests. It is the wisdom of the people that ambiguous laws/regs facilitate profit-enhancing, individual-disempowering courtroom “justice” contests.
9. Prohibit lawyer unions (aka “bar” associations), under any name or guise, from being established, or implemented by state or federal law. It is the wisdom of the people that there should be no difference in principle between a lawyers union/association and other similar associations of other vocations such as carpenters, plumbers, etc. They should be part of the free market, and subject to its rules, not part of the government operating as a de facto autonomous commercial monopoly.
10. Require all attorney fee sanctions and private attorney general doctrines, designed to facilitate the rule of law and deter certain undesirable types of behavior on the part of government officers and employees, be interpreted in such a way as to pay non-bar pro se litigants for the market rate of their prevailing civil rights litigation.
Regarding revisionist-history judicial lies regarding “governments” monopoly on money, compare the truth of Hepburn v. Griswold 75 U.S. (8 Wallace) 606 (Feb 7, 1870) with the lies of Legal Tender Cases (Knox v. Lee, Parker v. Davis), 79 U.S. (12 Wallace) 457 (1870) (Supreme Court website lists date as May 1, 1871 and “opinions delivered Jan 15, 1872”) and Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421 (1884). Compare also the truth of
Chisolm v. State of Georgia, 2 U.S. (Dallas) 419 (1793) to the lies of M'Culloch v. Maryland, 17 U.S. (4 Wheaton) 316 (1819) and Hans v. State of Louisiana, 134 U.S. 1 (1890). Tyrannical decisions regarding the evil of self-anointed absolute judicial immunity, which have created the existing defacto judicial oligarcy are Bradley v. Fisher, 80 U.S. (13 Wallace) 335 (April 8, 1872), Pierson v. Ray, 386 U.S. 547 (1967) and
Stump v. Sparkman, 435 U.S. 349 (1978). Interested individuals can read these cases and start their legal education by going to http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/supreme.html and entering the numbers in the “Citation Search” blanks.
Any questions?

taxes
Income tax is like no other in that there is no transfer/creation of property -real or intangible- on which to effect a 'use' tax or stamp. There is in fact nothing transferred but labor in exchange for the government's promise to redeem it's unbacked monetary notes. This suspect currency will always be devalued in the government's interest through inflation. Thus they redistribute even more of the fruit of the workers labor. In personal income, the labor of the individual is seen as taxable. In this case the state presumes it's right by mob rule to subject a percentage of each earner to involuntary servitude, including the mob of unwitting poor to some degree through payroll taxes which are sent directly to the general fund.
Prior to the 20th century and wars which needed more funding there were no individual income taxes. It is far too late to change back now as much of the non-working or barely working but voting 'mob' has been absolved of all responsibility in paying income taxes. They only need cash their earned income checks and collect other government handouts. It would not be in their self-interest (as the dems are wont to point out) to go back. Eventually the democrat machine will work to make middleclass (and above) workers pay not only the poor's share of income taxes but their payroll deductions as well, including those of the many millions of newly minted democrats who came or are coming up from Mexico. A vote is a vote after all.
As far as the legality of income taxes, the point is completely moot. You will pay or you will pay!
It is surely ironic to know that eventually the only truly free Americans will be those who live below some arbitrary poverty line; not even will they be subject to the draft. Perhaps the coming mandatory health insurance, (one of many new Soviet-style parasite laws) will affect them, but I doubt it. Those too will be payed by those of us who try to better ourselves by working longer and harder.
As for labor unions, we Americans owe more than we can ever know to those brave men and women who suffered and died to organize and bring the workers of today's America the many benefits we enjoy. Benefits too numerous to fully enumerate here; Higher pay and pay commensurate with work, forty hour work week, safer conditions, overtime pay, insurance and retirement benefits, paid vacations to name a few. Look and see what's happening to the labor force in this country as unions lose members and power. Fewer benefits, lower pay, job losses to illegal workers, loss of retirement and on and on. Do you really believe that a government which is planning to replace you with Mexican aliens has your best interest at heart? Do You? Further, any union boss that thinks 'open borders' is a good-for-the-union policy should be voted out and put on the bus! Right now. No delays.
Finally, anyone who believes the government can take the place of labor unions should spend some time reading about the American labor movement in the early years of the last century. It will be an eye opener I promise.

Ignorance is bliss
I especially enjoyed your comment that "the idea that we should pool our collective ignorance...is as ridiculous as it is dangerous." Every time I hear of a poll taken to find out how people "feel" about something and then listen to pundits give this poll serious consideration, I will be reminded of your well-phrased words. I think you are right about the whole self-esteem thing. My father-in-law has a phrase he uses when he witnesses this "pooling of collective ignorance." He says of them, "Often wrong, but never in doubt."

Hate Competition
I was a Dem and a Lib(DL)for many years. Then I got a job in the private sector, eventually became a manager, and learned what a Profit and Loss Statement looked like and how hard one had to work to make that bottom line a positive number.

One of the things I've realized since then is that most of my DL friends -- or at least those who haven't terminated lifetime friendships due to my apostasy -- have never worked in the private sector and don't know a P&L from a pina colada. The few that have had to work for a profit-making corporation gripe about how they're being exploited from day one and avoid the management track like the plague. For most such people competition is a dirty word. Maybe they were the ones who always got hammered in dodge-ball as kids. Maybe it's genetic.

Able Goodman - - -
I like that analogy to the One Ring! Quite apropos.

Now I have to allocate a couple of days to read the rest of your thesis. :-)

romat
Color me impressed. Leftism is usually such an incurable disease...

Goodman
Why shouldn't there be bar associations? They're just the state supreme court's arm that regulates attorneys in the state anyway... shouldn't lawyers be regulated just like surgeons and plumbers and contractors and insurance salesman and accountants?

Why is it bad for lawyers to be regulated? And if lawyers are to be regulated, shouldn't they be self-regulated like every other profession in the country, since, by definition, a profession is beyond the criticism of outsiders? Why should non-experts regulate lawyers? Would you want farmers telling surgeons what procedures and instruments they may or may not use, or plumbers telling accountants that a procedure is or is not generally accepted?

Law IS a profession. It's one of the original three professions going back for centuries. It takes a very specific course of training for you to learn how to practice it.

Now, if we threw out stare decisis, then I think the practice of law would be dumbed down enough that anyone could do it, and then I think all your points would be correct. But without stare decisis, everyone gets treated differently from everyone else since you can't cite any cases as authority to force the judges to rule consistently. If you want that kind of justice, you can always go to Louisianna or France.

-----------

However, there's alot of merit to the notion that there should be no UPL statutes. Why shouldn't lawyers have competition? It would make them better at their jobs, and it would offer a good test to see whether there is any value in having a traditional lawyer instead of whatever the market can come up with as an alternative.

Full disclosure: I'm taking the bar in March, so that's where I'm coming from.

Another interesting market test would be to allow non-lawyers to practice law and see whether anyone would insure non-lawyer practicioners against malpractice. If non-lawyers could get malpractice insurance at a cost that they could afford given public demand for non-lawyer practicioners, then that's all the convincing I would really need that lawyers should not have a monopoly.


BTW - There's nothing anywhere that requires judges to be lawyers. People are freely electing lawyers to be judges for a reason. I call that a market decision and I trust its wisdom. Appointments are another matter, but even then you have non-lawyer presidents and governors consistently appointing lawyers to be judges.

The REAL solutions -- Part III
Uncle Alby — sorry for another “thesis, but I am only answering that which I was asked. :-)
Jerubal — there should be nothing theoretically wrong with the idea of lawyers forming groups (aka “unions”) and bargaining for their wage rate. Many other vocations do that. In a free market, however, any lawyers union should NOT be a part of the coercion-based “government” machinery as “bars” (defacto “unions”) are. With other vocations, their unions don’t constitute a defacto monopoly on access to justice. If nurses have a beef with carpenters, it is settled on the lawyers’ commercial-monopoly turf. If the airline pilots have a beef with the dentists, it is settled on the lawyers’ commercial-monopoly turf. But if all of the rest of society has a beef with the lawyers, where is it settled? You guessed it, on the lawyers’ commercial-monopoly turf. Guess who wins? The legal-profession culture, of course! Notice that there are no such things as “unauthorized practice” of carpentry, farming or rotorooting. That’s because carpenters, farmers and plumbers don’t make the laws and artificially increase their “take” out of the economy far beyond what it would be in a truly free market. Lawyers do, and they also suffer pain and sickness they are not knowledgeable in, which is why they give doctors a commercial monopoly on access to pain control, which is why the slash-poison-and-burn allotropic medical industry has led inflation for 40 years. The unconscionable monopoly-caused non-free-market prices are also the reason why “alternative” medicine is enjoying huge increases in market share.
The first thing we have to do is wash the shamanism-induced lemming-like garbage from our brains and remember that if we as individuals could acquire sufficient knowledge to stay well and at peace, doctors and lawyers are going to have to find something more worthwhile to do with their brains. Therefore, according to the cause-and-effect realities of Nature’s free market, it is mechanically in the financial best interests of doctors and lawyers that the vast majority of society, as individuals, remain ignorant, sick, and quarreling. And notice that the legal-profession culture is the only group which is defacto exempt from the anti-trust statutes. This cannot be the path to the fulfillment of the ultimate spiritual and intellectual potential of humankind.
I know exactly whereof I speak because I am the living, walking, talking poster boy exposing the elitism and injustice of the legal-profession culture’s monopoly on access to justice. In 1981 I got into a beef with the federal bureaucracy and succeeded in doing what local lawyers said could not be done. I actually enjoined a criminal action by filing a 42 USC 1983 violation-of-civil-rights action in federal court, using the Ex Parte Young, 209 U.S. 123 (1908) equity exception — which has since been pretty much eliminated by the so-called Rooker-Feldman doctrine. BTY, Feldman was an individual lawyer who lost against his profession.
I prevailed on every point I raised. According to 42 USC 1988 I should have been compensated for the work I did at the market value of lawyers — if constitutional equal protection of law is going to mean anything. Because the case was unprecedented (many pages of regs in the Federal Register had to be changed) the work I did was worth even more than usual, according to the case law relevant to calculating attorney fees. Yet, because I was not a “union” lawyer, my labor was accorded zero monetary value. That is directly analogous to the carpenters’ union passing a law that a house can only be accorded a monetary value if it was built by a union carpenter. Society cannot settle the legal-profession culture’s hash without settling judges’ hash, because judges are “government’s” point/bag men. The mercenaries with the the guns and badges will imprison or kill whoever the judges tell them to. The judges administer the law, and the law is whatever the lying judges say it is. The guns and badges enforce the judges’ lies, which implement the legal-profession culture’s anti-freedom commercial monopoly on access to justice. This is anathematical to a free-market. Judges being lawyers is not a market decision because the consumers were nowhere near fully informed of the choices and consequences.
Mike from Tucson — You’re correct, but it is necessary to dig one level deeper than you did. “Income” is a fraudulent and unmeasurable word, like “value.” Truth is not words we speak. Truth = reality/existence. Words are units of measurements of human ideas. To be honest and useful, a word cannot simultaneously mean exact opposites (e.g. hot-cold, light-dark). Government uses the word “income” to camoflauge the stark polar cause-and-effect differences between profit and compensation, and they work really hard, through lying judges, to be cute about it.
If a plumbing shop charges the customer $40/hr for a plumber’s labor, but only pays the plumber $20/hr, the shop has made a profit of $20/hr FROM LABOR (see the fraudulent language of the 16th Amendment “income from whatever source.” Wisely or not, the shop is taxed on the $20 profit it made from it’s employee-plumber’s labor. But the shop gets to deduct the $20 it paid the plumber as the overhead expense of labor, along with deducting all its other expenses.
But things are dramatically (and unfairly) different for the plumber. He lost $20 in monetary value when he worked for an hour. He was COMPENSATED for his loss when the employer paid him his $20 in wages. For the employer, its PROFIT from its employee’s (the “OTHER GUY’S”) labor is the so-called “source of income.” For the employee, the defacto monetary value of HIS OWN labor, which is actually COMPENSATION, is fraudulently alleged to be his “source of income” upon which he is taxed, without the courtesy of having his labor deducted as an expense, when, in fact the mutually accepted market exchange of the employer’s $20 cash for the employee’s $20-worth of labor is a zero-sum exchange from which neither side receives an “increase,” “gain” or “profit. The employee’s $20 wage is COMPENSATION for his $20-of-value loss inherent in his hour of labor. Being taxed on that, compared to the employer being taxed on PROFIT is blatant, self-evident unequal protection of law, and, therefore, a per se lack of substantive due process from the viewpoint of the Bill of Rights.
It was the Founder’s intent — just for the fun of it, see also Genesis 3:19 (God’s intent?) — that a man make a living by the sweat of his own brow, and that, necessarily, a man’s own labor, and the produce from it, be his inviable private property. That’s why the 5th Amendment enumerates the right not to bear witness against yourself for the government’s benefit in economic matters. Of course, lying judges pretend otherwise, at least by implication and facilitating the bureaucratic rape of the individual laborer’s economic life blood. As a public policy matter related to freedom, there is a night and day difference between obtaining money from the other guy’s labor and obtaining money from your own labor. That difference used to be reflected in both policy and law. The judges must be made directly accountable and liable to the people before it can be again.
The so-called income tax is actually a fraudulent direct tax upon labor, without labor’s realization of that reality. The reason this is so crucial is because of one of Nature’s first cause-and-effect laws of economics: whatever you tax you get less of, and whatever you subsidize subsidize you get more of. Tax labor, honesty, generosity, industry and ingenuity, you get less of those things. Subsidize sloth, dishonesty, greed, laziness and apathy, you get more of those things. Subsidize unwed motherhood, you get more of it. Subsidize ignorance with government “compulsory education” (a defacto oxymoron) and you get more of that. Socialism cannot work because it is anti-nature. Nobody wants to be forced to give his property to somebody else. Free-market charity, yes, One-Ring coercion, no.
As a matter of wise and equitable public policy, no way should the money obtained from other people’s labor be taxed at the same rate as money obtained from one’s own labor, because society is like a wagon being pulled down the road. Some people are in the wagon riding, while others are out of the wagon pulling. One by one the pullers notice that’s it’s easier to be riding in the wagon than pulling it. So one by one, they stop pulling and jump in the wagon. Riders do not voluntarily get out and pull, so more and more pullers will stop pulling and get into the wagon until there are so many riders and so few pullers that the wagon stops and people starve. That’s the natural cause-and-effect sequence of things, which is not dependent upon human opinion for its existence/reality.
As Ayn “Atlas Shrugged” Rand knew full well, for the wagon to stop would entail great pain, suffering and choas for huge multitudes of people. That’s why, as individuals, we have to change our stinking little lives and be willing to work our very hardest in pursuit of knowledge, wisdom, liberty and justice. We need to learn to like and trust each other instead of the shamanistic dominant members of the stupid-human pecking order who call themselves “government."

Addendum to REAL solutions – Part III
Sorry Uncle Alby, I forgot one clarifying paragraph: For the employer, his $20-cash-loss half of the voluntary zero-sum free-market exchange is tax deductible as a legitimate overhead expense, while for the employee, his $20-value-of-labor-loss half of the voluntary zero-sum free-market exchange is calculated to have zero monetary value so as to be able to tax the entire $20 of compensational wages he receives from the employer. The emloyee’s part of the transaction is taxed, the employer’s part of the transaction is not taxed. From a constitutional point of view — and absolutely from a moral point of view — the lying opinions of “government” judges notwithstanding, that amounts to blatant unequal protection of law camoflauged behind the fraudulent double-meaning word “income.” And that, in turn, amounts to nothing more or less than the plain old-fashioned wannabe-clever aristocrat-v-serf feudalism the Founders risked their lives, fortunes and sacred honor fighting against.

minimum wage
Today the California minimum wage went to $7.50 from $6.75. I am a very small business with three employees. One of them, a recent hire, part-time, high school student, makes minimum--which means she gets a raise. Without doing anything different than she has been doing, you may note. One of them works about 30 hrs/week, by her own choice, now makes $7.50 and is going to have to get a raise (again for exactly the same work) to maintain a differential for her position and experience. BTW, her previous job was at Wal-Mart, who laid her off after a work-related injury. The third is full-time, and in a position with a state-mandated requirement of double minimum wage--so he gets a double raise, again for no additional work. We are not in a high-price business, and my choices are to pay the additional wages out of my own pocket (which ain't that plump), or raise prices, which is going to hurt sales and customers. Is this doing anybody any good?

Well said, but an added idea..
Back when the gasses cooled and cave man appeared, some were so poor that they died of starvation and they were not very good hunters either! Their rich cousins had no money, but maybe were good enough hunters to be able to support two wives. What a gap between rich and poor!

Ever since the poor have managed to spend all that they ever get and have nothing while those that figure out how to learn enough to work make the gap grow always bigger.

Those that think that we should destroy the motivation of the rich to work and redistribute a few dollars to each of those who are claimed to be poor fail to understand that if the rich have no incentive to work to make jobs for those wanting to leave their poor status, then only the government or politicians can provide work of some historically acceptable sort. Like make a million pairs of shoes- baby size all left foot so you can steal the rest of the material and make something of new value! Like the Soviets learned to do!

Where will somebody else try this failed model?

Selfishness
The Monuments to the failures of Capitalism are the Departments of Welfare, Education etc., (and the forthcoming "Department of Happines".)

A cost of doing business in a Capitalistic society is hellping people or the Government and Unions will do it and it will cost alot more.

partsmom: An emphatic YES
Yes, raising the minimum wage is absolutely doing good for someone - namely, the populist politicians who get to claim a win for their side! "We raised the minimum wage in '06," they will one day cry, concluding a la Ted Kennedy, "AND WE'RE GONNA DO IT AGAIN! WE'RE GONNA RAISE IT AND RAISE IT AND RAISE IT!!!"

I was thrilled to see you point out the fact that it isn't just minimum wage employees who are affected; as I have said many times, there are lots of workers out there - those working union jobs, most notably - whose salaries are computed as a multiple of the minimum wage. The people that vote for these political five-legged-dogs never realize what they are getting themselves into, and fortunately for the politicians who espouse such measures, the MSM does its dutiful job to hide the true effects *afterward*.

Makes you proud to be an American!

free markets
There is no free markets without
free labor!

Here is what I believe:

Everyone everywhere should have the right to move where they want. Thus, all states need to make laws that allow people from everywhere to migrate to their land. The same way businesses can do. The law of supply and demand cannot operate without freedom of movement.

Thus, states, including the United States, should be able to make laws of all sorts but not laws that restrict individuals' freedom of movement.

(Obviously, individuals or members of groups that aim to or violate other's rights would not be able to have this freedom of movement. Thus I am for a wall/fence on both borders so we can know who is in our country, but all people of good will should be welcome)

Do you believe in freedom?

Self Esteem
It used to be a compliment when one described an individual as one who always strived for his best. I suppose that now, with our new educational precepts, we are all endowed with self esteem. What need is there to strive?

everyonesfacts
It's certainly an interesting assertion... can you back it up with any logic or data? Or does it remain a purely personal opinion?

Just to recap: everything in your post flows from this initial assertion: "Everyone everywhere should have the right to move where they want." So this would be the piece that needs to be supported somehow. I for one am open to considering your thoughts, but I don't swallow assertions just because someone believes them.

Capitalism....
To paraphrase Churchill, capitalism is the worst economic system in the world, except for all the others. Its inherent vice is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of the others is the equal sharing of misery.
There will always be the Skillings and Lays of the world, but as I recall one is in prison and the other is dead. Things have a way of working themselves out. The sharing of lasting misery occurs when the government tries to level the playing field.

MarineDad
"The sharing of lasting misery occurs when the government tries to level the playing field."
=============
Well said.

Check my blog (click on my handle) for today's revelation of the Dhimmicrat's Plan under Red Nancy.

Shared misery? They plan on unloading it on us.

About minimum wage
I think most people who wish to increase minimum wage - they never had anyone working for them. As any small business owner knows or one who used to have household help (like babysitters, cleaning aids) - you pay:
1) as much as you can afford or otherwise you would do it yourself
2) as much as your hire agrees to or she would find another job
3) according to the quantity AND quality of work - if two people work the same number of hours but one does less work or worse quality, you would compensate differently (through bonuses, pay increases, etc.)

I view it as very fair and don't see why I would need anyone telling me how much I would have to pay my workers?

In other words, you can't pay too much or it wouldn't be worth for you, and you can't pay too little because of competition and if you value your workers. Thus wages would vary a lot depending on the location, hours, type of work required, qualifications - which is again supply and demand.

I hope I explained it as simple as possible.

Happy New Year!
Galina

re: duke / Helping People
duke wrote:
"The Monuments to the failures of Capitalism are the Departments of Welfare, Education etc., (and the forthcoming 'Department of Happines'.)

"A cost of doing business in a Capitalistic society is hellping people or the Government and Unions will do it and it will cost alot more."

>>

Balderdash!!


First, I am assuming that you are referring to "charity". Your reference to welfare leaves me confident in my assumption, but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. To that end...

The business of business is to make money. Generally speaking, charity is not profitable. While charitable activity *may* generate positive PR and advertising and, perhaps, customer loyalty thus generating more sales revenue and, therefore, more profit, charity itself is a profit loser. Charity is, at its core, giving something for nothing of tangible, marketable, bankable value in return.

When Home Depot donates materials to Eagle Scout service projects and Habitat for Humanity it suffers a loss. Home Depot purchased those materials from vendors, suppliers, and manufacturers. It spent money on them reducing their cash balance. When it donates those materials it "gives them away", getting nothing in return to balance or increase the initial investment in the materials. Home Depot has to make that up somewhere.

The products donated to charity are funded or paid-for by paying customers purchasing *other* products in the form of higher prices. In other words, the cost of the materials donated are distributed amongst the prices of all the other goods on the sales floor. So while their charity may have helped the beneficiaries, it hurt their customers in the form of higher prices.


Second, capitalism has helped elevate the standard of living for far many more people than any other "program" or model and has "helped" far more people than even charity. As previously pointed out, the average "poor" family in America enjoys a far *better* standard of living than the average *median* family in Europe. Capitalism, not welfare, has produced quality products like air-conditioning, refrigerators, cell-phones, and even automobiles at affordable prices. So affordable, even, that most "poor" people have almost all of these things and then some elevating their standard of living far beyond even the richest families just a century ago.

Think about that. Because of the innovations fueled by competition for market share, the average "poor" American is richer, in terms of standard and comfort of living, than the richest Americans of 1907.

Case-in-Point: Wal*Mart, all PC rhetoric aside, employs millions of Americans and pays them *more* than they could *generally* expect to earn anywhere else (for the same work). Those employees that make more at Wal*Mart than they would at, say, TJ-Max, are certainly helped by the pay difference. More importantly, though, Wal*Mart's low prices give their consumers greater buying power. They can purchase more for their money at Wal*Mart. Consequently, they enjoy a higher standard of living. Gee, isn't that helpful? And it's *not* charity; it's business.


Third, public charity (welfare, et al) has had been far more detrimental to private charity than capitalism ever has. The income tax that funds public charity deprives individuals of a portion of their discretionary income that they might otherwise put towards charity. Less income equals less money to give to charity. Additionally, knowing that public charity exists generates a two-pronged-why-should-I? mentality. It's very simple. First, why should I donate *more* of my money to charity when the government has already *taken* money from me for charity? Second, why should I donate my money to Boy Scout canned-good drives, Habitat for Humanity, or other similar charities when the government *already* has a program to feed the hungry (re: foodstamps, welfare, etc.) and house the poor (re: HUD housing, Section 8 housing, rent subsidized housing, etc.)?



While we're discussing or comparing how well capitalism helps versus government... Wal*Mart and Home Depot were first on the scene in New Orleans after Katrina.


Yep. Captilism sure doesn't do anything to help people.

Niggardly Minimum Wages
I have always been more appalled by those who are "for" minimum wages than for those who are "against" minimum wages. Those who are "for" minimum wages recognize no economic laws, such as the market's tendency to drive marginal wages to equal marginal productivity, that foreclose any government macroscopic setting of minimum wages at some rate above the minimum marginal productivity. Given that they consistently argue that raising minimum wages will not increase unemployment and hurt the least productive workers most and do not recognize any macro fiscal limitations, why are they so niggardly in setting minimum wages? Why shouldn't the minimum wage be set at $10, or $20, or $50. If no economic limitations apply, why shouldn't the minimum annual wage be set at $75,000 or $100,000 or more? I propose that if limitations and logic do not apply, then the minimum wage should be set at least equal to 110% of the median wage!!

BobDoyle
Great post but I think you just gave Red Nancy Pelosiovich another good idea.

"Raise Minimum Wage...sqwak. sqwak! Pelosi wanta another cracker...sqwakkkkkkkk!"