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Friday, December 29, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
A dangerous obsession: Part IV
by Thomas Sowell
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One of the questions often asked by those obsessed with income "gaps" and "disparities" is: "Is anyone really worth the millions of dollars a year that some people receive as personal income?"

Such a question presupposes that there is such a thing as "real" worth. That assumption goes back to the Middle Ages, when people thought that there was a "fair and just price" for things.

But if there were an objective value -- whether of goods or of labor -- then economic transactions would make no sense.

When you buy a computer, the only reason you part with your money is that the computer is worth more to you than the money. But the only reason someone sells you the computer is that the money is worth more to them than the computer.

The difference in value of the same thing to different people is the whole basis for economic transactions. If there was any such thing as an objective value, these transactions would make no sense. Why bother making an exchange if what you get is no more valuable to you than what you give?

If there is an objective value of a computer that is greater than what is being paid for it, then the seller has been cheated and is a fool to keep making such transactions. Similarly if the objective value is less than what is paid: The buyer is a fool to keep buying something that is not worth its price.

It is the same story when Derek Jeter gets paid millions of dollars to play shortstop for the Yankees. He gains by exchanging his time and skills for the money that George Steinbrenner pays him. But Steinbrenner also gains by paying Jeter to play shortstop -- which helps bring in more money in gate receipts, the sale of television rights, and other sources of revenue.

As for the rest of us, it is none of our business what Steinbrenner pays Jeter. It's their deal. If we don't understand it, there is no reason why our ignorance should influence what happens.

The medieval notion that there is an objective "fair and just price" dies hard, though even in medieval times St. Thomas Aquinas saw some of the problems with the idea.

The British classical economists of the 18th and early 19th centuries saw cost of production as an objective basis for prices. But, since the 1870s, economists around the world have recognized that value is subjective, and have incorporated that into their analysis of prices, based on supply and demand.

If something costs more to produce than people are willing to pay, then the producer just loses money. But a principle that seems obvious, after it has been articulated, may take generations to evolve and be incorporated into our thinking.

Yet here we are, in the 21st century, still talking about whether people are paid more or less than they are "really" worth -- and we are hot to give government the power to "do something" if we don't understand why some people are paid so much or so little.

If ignorance is bad, confusion is worse. Productivity, for example, is often confused with merit.

If Derek Jeter worked like a dog for years to perfect his skills as a baseball player, some might think that he had earned the big bucks he gets. But if he was just born with natural talent and the whole thing is a breeze to him, that would mean he didn't really merit such a huge payoff.

But Steinbrenner is not paying for Jeter's merit. He is paying for his productivity, whether at bat or in the field. Somebody who worked twice as hard and was still only half as good would never get the same money that Jeter gets.

Many poverty-stricken people in the Third World work harder than most Americans work but, for a number of reasons, they don't produce as much. That is why these countries are poor.

Transferring wealth from 300 million Americans and spreading it out over more than two billion people in India and China is not going to do much. But enabling more people in India or China to become more productive can help them and us -- and has.

Multinational corporations are among the biggest spreaders of greater productivity to Third World countries and they usually pay higher wages than local employers. But moral exhibitionists who are hot for the redistribution of other people's money are among the biggest critics of multinational corporations.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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economics
Mr Sowell, you explain economics and other money matters way too clearly for most redistributionists & other critics of corporations. They prefer to think of economics as mystical, un explanable happenings. That way, their unworkable ideas cannot be disproved. Plain speaking economists such as Walter williams & Thomas Sowell just anger and hurt the feelings of those who wish to remain ignorant of reality. "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, nor so deaf as those who refuse to hear".

Dangerous?
I thought we covered that ground already?

It's dangerous because it prompts ignorant people to petition their equally ignorant congress-critters to pass laws that restrict our freedoms and liberties, thus making the ignorant feel like they've "accompished something" while actually robbing us all of wealth and happiness.

Enough already
That goes for you Tanabear. Put another string on your violing, pleeeeeeeese.

Tsk, tsk tsk, TanaBear
I've heard this style of argument for forty years: pull a quick theme change to attempt to show the shallowness of your opponents argument by starting a different topic you want an audience to think is "deeper." No matter what your opponent says, you have something more important to discuss.

Some days you have good things to say. Other days I wonder if we we were reading the same article. Try to stay on track, for pete's sake! If you have something to say, try to construct some sort of rational framework for your ideas that others can follow. We don't ask that you agree with us all, or try to please us with your ideas, but try to make some sense so that we know what the heck you're trying to say.

Were you a member of the SDS or some other left wing, pseudo-intellectual harp orchestra in the 60's? These Captain Tangent trips on the US Starship LSD do you no credit. Let's face it, Dr Sowell writes and thinks in a league you can't effective challenge.

I'd Like to Add Something to Sowell's
At the risk of prompting a Part V - - - :-)

quoth Sowell: "If something costs more to produce than people are willing to pay, then the producer just loses money."

More likely, the producer will NOT lose money, and the item will simply NOT be produced. Until such time as the scarcity from not being produced brings the price up to where it's profitable again.

We saw that with oil prices. As much as it pains us all when oil hits $75/barrel, it's prices like that which encourage oil companies to invest more bucks in exploration and sophisticated technologies that get more oil from harder-to-reach places. If the government caps the price at some arbitrary "natural" level, then we'll just run out of cheap oil altogether and not have any at all.

quoth Sowell: "If Derek Jeter worked like a dog for years to perfect his skills as a baseball player, some might think that he had earned the big bucks he gets. But if he was just born with natural talent and the whole thing is a breeze to him, that would mean he didn't really merit such a huge payoff."

This reminds me of a comment from poster "David" the doctor who complained about how medical students work so hard to get their M.D., and therefore expect to be paid. Sorry, David, it just doesn't work that way.

"But Steinbrenner is not paying for Jeter's merit. He is paying for his productivity, whether at bat or in the field. Somebody who worked twice as hard and was still only half as good would never get the same money that Jeter gets."

I would add that Steinbrenner is paying for Jeter's MARKET VALUE. If everybody in the world suddenly started watching twiddly-winks instead of baseball, it wouldn't matter how excellent Jeter's baseball skills were. He'd simply be one of the better producers of a relatively worthless activity.

Similarly, you don't see expert Twiddly-Wink players pulling down big bucks, even if they happen to work harder than Jeter, and even if, compared side-by-side in their respective "sports", the Twiddly-Wink player was actually more productive than Jeters. The simple fact of the matter is that Twiddly-Winks doesn't have the same value on the market.

Jeters is paid not just for productivity, but for marketable productivity. I.e., he produces something a lot of people are willing to part with their cash for.

Troglodyte
You're right. Tanabear can't challenge the substance of Mr. Sowell's arguments, so he changes the subject so he can have something to argue about.

3rd world horror
Dr. Sowell writes: Many poverty-stricken people in the Third World work harder than most Americans work but, for a number of reasons, they don't produce as much. That is why these countries are poor.

The main reason that 3rd World workers are paid less is that their productivity is lower - and that is tied to the level of investment.

Example: in 3rd World countries, construction is done largely by manual labor - the lack of investment capital makes machinery scarce. If a site has to be excavated manually, without earth-moving machinery, it takes more worker-hours.

But why is there less investment capital in 3rd World countries? In most cases, it is because of the confiscatory policies of the Govts in those countries. High taxes, or arbitrary laws that restrict the flow of capital prevent capital from being available.

Govts in socialist-leaning countries pass draconian laws - usually the stated purpose sounds noble. For example: we're protecting indigenous business, so only companies with 51% local ownership can do business in this country! Sounds noble, but the whooshing sound that you hear is that of foreign capital fleeing ..

Or, to protect our economy from 'predatory' foreigners, we will not greatly restrict the conversion of local currency into dollars (or any other 'hard' currency). Whoosh!

The residents of the 3rd World countries are being shafted - by their own Govts, who throttle their own economies with laws that are ostensibly designed to 'protect'.

Typo in my previous post (sorry) ..
I wrote: Or, to protect our economy from 'predatory' foreigners, we will not greatly restrict the conversion of local currency into dollars (or any other 'hard' currency). Whoosh!

That should be: Or, to protect our economy from 'predatory' foreigners, we will greatly restrict the conversion of local currency into dollars (or any other 'hard' currency). Whoosh!

BTW, the two laws that were described in my post were actually REAL examples from a 3rd World country. Any guesses?

What can WE learn from the 3rd World?
Amazingly, we Americans are allowing the germ of socialism to flourish - right here, in the last bastion of capitalism!

Anyone who has lived in a socialist-leaning country can tell you that the following do NOT produce the stated goals:

* Nationalized Health Care
* Govt-run education
* wage/price controls
* welfare

Can you imagine the surprise of a visitor from the 3rd World, when s/he finds these practices in effect (or being considered) in AMERICA?

voice_of_reason
The only reason that they are being considered here in America is that liberals are too stupid to look at the mistakes OTHER countries make and avoid them.

BTW, check my blog for today's HISTORY lesson, speaking of that. Just click on my handle and let TH do the rest.

Tanabear, is less more?
Some points to consider before you advocate placing a limit on anyone's earning power:

* exactly WHO should set limits?
Does a bureaucrat in DC know how much a company CEO deserves? Aren't the Directors and shareholders in the company better equipped to determine the CEO's compensation?

* incentives
Humans are competitive and carry the dominant incentive-gene! Socialists may not like this fact, but it is true. Humans respond positively to incentives, and, for some reason(!) shy away from dis-incentives. Most of the ideas that socialists promote (e.g. limits on wages) just don't work with humans - they are designed for another species that does not carry the dominant incentive-gene.

A top-secret experiment was conducted between 1917 and 1989 in which socialist theories were tried on millions of human specimens. The results were published in all the newspapers.

tanabear
It's always those who can't compete who whine for more rules, more intervention, more bullcrap.

You remind me of the deadwood I see every now and then in the Government arena. They have not taken any adult education to improve their job skills. They have not progressed their education since graduating high school or maybe college back in 1975 with a Bachelor's and get all mad when someone with a Master's or better job skills gets promoted over them. "It ain't FAIRRRRR."

Those who work HARD and STAY MOTIVATED rate more. Those who DON'T deserve what they get, less.

A piece of advice for you: "When you DO what you have ALWAYS done, you'll GET what you've ALWAYS gotten."

We call that common sense.

my 2 cents
Jeter and many others get paid the ridiculous amounts of money they get paid for the simple reason that the market will bear it. Do you think Steinbrenner will pay him and A-Rod that money out of HIS pocket? Wrong. That money comes out of the pocket of the sucker who ponies up $75 or so to watch them play (once) and buys a $10 hot dog and a $30 t-shirt after paying $20 to park the car.

Not to mention building stadiums with public funds and having 20 year tax breaks.

Capitalism must only be a tool for DEMOC
Sowell's analysis is meaningless in the context of Terrorism.

Civilisation has evolved over millennia towards democratic values. This gives everyone a say at least once every voting cycle and warfare and disputes are reduced to acceptable levels. Before democracy there was no peace, no stability, no sustainability and this resulted the failed roman Feudal system and the anarchy of the dark ages. Finally after 1000 years of vicious warfares culminating in WWII did democracy finally emerge as the System du jour to limit war and allow sustainable prosperity.

Now the problem with Modern Capitalism is the CANCER where CEOs command remunerations (routinely with bonuses absentia of any productivity) that are 100's of times that of elected officials.
That means elected officials are in AWE of CEOs and not the the proper processes of JUSTICE. Thus Democracy becomes just another commodity. That means democracy has failed and we are right back at square one ... imperial Rome and ready to relive another 2000 years of wasted history.

Do we have to relive world history with 10 billion people bearing down on the Earth by 2050?
The scale of war and carnage is just unimaginable at this time. Radical Islamic terror is just an incidental beginning.

The answer is simple. CEOs must be confined to no more than 2 times senior elected officials' salaries. That is all that is required.

The CANCER within the useful tool that is global CAPITALISM must be EXCISED so that Capital in free markets is no longer polluted (Thermodynamic high entropy) with injustice. Restricting CEO remunerations is as effective a way to do this as a skilled surgeon using a scalpel. The existing human rage that brings terrorism to all our lives will disappear and no more will American families have to sacrfice their children or their nations treasure in fighting wars that a few ignorant CEOs have started. Started when they first got the thought in their heads that they could be GOD.

Further, in this context it is essential that the work done by the Gates Foundation be properly audited for humanitarian results. We cannot assume these philanthropies are in America's or the World's best interests without proper srutiny. They must do it properly without strings being attached to recipients. The problem with handouts in third world countries is that they can bind or enslave recipients in such a way that they become dependent on America and never become true world citizens. That outcome can only lead to terrorism directed at America.

As for TV sets? The Mafia controls the price of drugs right? Some say its still the market, but don't forget that any competition is 'Al Caponed'. So, its not so much a free market as an ARRANGEMENT. CEOs leveraging of markets has exactly the same anti-trust effect on markets, including TV prices. The only difference from the Mafia is that CEOs have lobbied or leveraged Governments over many years to legislate this process as LEGAL. This was evident in ENRON convictions. Skilling and Co were never convicted of arbitraging (manipulating)Californians out of $billions as they should have been.

Wake up America ... the cancer in capitalism is not SO WELL defined. But it is there. Every time a CEO fails AND gets paid multi billion dollar bonuses we are all watching the tumour grow.

Check your premises
The idea that "values are subjective" is not a finding of any empirical science. It is rather a premise, i.e., something taken for granted and regarded as self-evidently true, that underlies economics. While liberatrians have no trouble with this premise, conservatives should find it quite dubious.

Indeed, if the TH raedership (and most of the TH columnists) had the slightest knowledge of the intellectual foundations of conservatism, they would be skeptical, if not completely critical, of the idea that values are subjective.

It is rather the idea--embedded in the Western tradition that most conservatives claim they both embody and desire to protect--that determinations of good or bad, fair or unfair, just or unjust, and moral or immoral are rightly understood as objective that should be, and used to be, central to conservatism.

The subjectivity of value is an invention of modern political and moral philosophy; it emerged in opposition to much of the Western tradition. When conservatives embrace this notion, they reject that tradition.

I urge anyone who wants to know more--not that I expect many takers--to devote some time to readering Richard Weaver, Russell Kirk, C.S. Lewis, and other genuine conservatives.

Stew
Mr. Sowell has chosen an example that proves his point well. Jeter is worth that to Steinbrenner because he can induce me to put down about $50 when I'm in NY to watch the Yankees. When Jeter can no longer perform he'll need to look to his savings. However, none of us has examined in depth the counter example to whit why is a CEO who takes a well run company and reduces its per share value over a relatively short period worth what he is paid?

As a government type I wish I completely agreed with GunnyG. But beuracratic inducements are rather more complex than he wants to believe. I have seen the competent overlooked and the brown nosing, minesweeping, deadwood promoted beyond their level of incompetence more often than I would like. I suspect however, that the latter is just a symptom of a fallen world.

CEOs or JAPs?
I think in light of the effect that Chief Executive Officers are having on DEMOCracy and the lives of ordinary 'homeland secure' Americans that they should be called Judicious Administrators of Productivity or JAPs.


Problems occur
When those doing the purchasing of xyz are not using their own funds, but government funds. The Endangered Species Act is a case in point. How valuable would a rat be if those who want it "protected" had to pay for that protection? Instead billions are being paid by taxpayers for all of this stuff. The ivory billed woodpecker is another example, I don't know how much money they got all together, but at least one 10 million dollar grant of taxpayer money, and there was no woodpecker.

Gestell
Sowell is talking about the subjectivity of market values, not moral values.

Wake Up, KAEP

Democracy is a HUGE loser. Always has been. Always will be.

Also, as I and many others have explained ad nauseam, "capitalism" is a word that means everything. A word that means everything - has no meaning at all. Capitalism was basically coined by Marx to differentiate between state owned capital (communism) and private capital (Marx's nemesis.)

Democracy is totally unstable because there are always people who think like you do - and they vote. There needs to be some separation between the governance of a country and its mass ignorati - that is why the US was established as a Republic.


KAEP, dude!
Let me begin with some armchair psychoanalysis, based ONLY upon your diatribe: you're a late-teen, early-20s science student - but not a particularly diligent one! You live outside the US and have spent some time marching with your unwashed anti-Globalist socialist brothers?

Thermodynamic high entropy? Dude, those, like, scientific words may sound kewl and everythin', yuh know, and they, like, might actually mean something. But they have no relevance to this subject - in fact, they aren't even relevant to the point that you THINK you're making!

To summarize your screed: Democracy good, Capitalism bad. Elected officials good, CEOs evil.

Consider the following:

* After decades of experimenting with the alternative (socialism), countries such as China, India, Russia are giving up those failed ideologies and are trying to adopt the Capitalist model.

* non-Capitalist ideologies resulted in the deaths of millions of people, often by starvation

* If you are fortunate enough to live in the US, you can visit a grocery store and not give a 2nd thought to the choices that await you. Visitors from non-capitalist countries (yes, your Utopian societies) feel like they are in fairy-tale land when they visit American grocery stores!

* CEOs too, are elected - by the shareholders and Directors of a company. Unsuccessful CEOs are often fired, with public disclosure, so that it affects their future employment.

KAEP
You say, "The existing human rage that brings terrorism to all our lives will disappear and no more will American families have to sacrifice their children or their nations treasure in fighting wars that a few ignorant CEOs have started."

How does the Islamist terrorism against India fit in here? Or the murder of Theo van Gogh?

Face it, Islamist terrorism has nothing to do with the pay of CEOs and everything to do with trying to conquer us and establish shari'a everywhere.

One More Thought, KAEP

You wrote: "The answer is simple. CEOs must be confined to no more than 2 times senior elected officials' salaries. That is all that is required."

You've got it backwards. Senior elected officials should be paid NOTHING.

Such Abject Ignorance

I haven't seen for a long time. KAEP says that Skilling and Co should have been prosecuted for "arbitraging" Californios out of billions. Wow.

Californios got exactly their due. In that sad state the bums have become kings. Anybody who made a "killing" on the electricity market at the expense of Californios was doing themselves and everyone else a huge favor. I recall aluminum plants along the Columbia River shutting down and selling their power to California since it made them more money that the manufacture of aluminum. So hundreds of aluminum workers stayed home because "senior elected officials" in California have idiotically been responding to people just like KAEP for way too damned many years.

What a benighted state.

KAEP reminds me...
... of a fellow on the campus of the college I went to in the early 90s. This fellow was a local, worked as a dishwasher, and styled himself "Ludwig Plutonium." Ol' Ludwig would get dolled up in his Day-glo orange hunting jacket, and a silver top hat decorated with representations of whirling electrons, and go out on the Green to hold forth to whomever might listen (dogs, grounds people, students walking across between classes) on his favorite theories. Or every so often, Ludwig would spend a chunk of his dishwasher's wages to take out a full page ad - or even a two-page spread, during particularly flush times - in the campus newspaper, showing his equations and his "reasoning."

His theory? That the entire universe was contained within a plutonium atom! His equations were gibberish, of course, his theories were delusional nonsense, but he made an interesting figure in my college experience.

And now we have ol' KAEP, muttering about thermondynamic entropy as it relates to democracy and CEOs' wages... ahhh, nostalgia. Good times.

ulsterscott
"As a government type I wish I completely agreed with GunnyG. But bureaucratic inducements are rather more complex than he wants to believe. I have seen the competent overlooked and the brown nosing, minesweeping, deadwood promoted beyond their level of incompetence more often than I would like. I suspect however, that the latter is just a symptom of a fallen world."

Only government, with its inability to fire the incompetent, no profit motive, and complete unaccountability, could produce the complex ineffective system you describe. It's not a symptom of a fallen world; it's a symptom of broken business model. Government functions much like socialism, with largely the same symptoms and results.

I get it..Enjoy your vacation Tom...
Tanabear and series critics. Mr. Sowell's brillance is demonstrated by the fact that he has the foresight to 'pen' a series, so that he could enjoy a well earned holiday break. Enjoy your vacation, and don't get a sunburn Tom. Sometime we'll go fishing at my Shawano Lake Resort (Wisconsin),or muskyisland, Lake of the Woods (Ontario) vacation place. Both great places to spend part of your well earned million$. As for me Tom, I'm packing the gas guzzling Suburban and jig's and heading out for some 2# Ontario crappies. I'll listen to my Packer's (via laptop) slay 'the bears', new years eve. Warmest regards, from the 'frozen tundra', JP. PS: To gunnyg. I slay my annual black/cinnamon bear up here during Septembers, in the 'bush', baiting with raw honey. My 'bear revenge' for their interrupting my spring-summer (walleye) shore lunches.

JP
Do you make any bear jerky? MAN, my granddad used to kill a black bear every year and we'd eat bear meat in stews, roasts, steaks, and jerky! YUMMY!

GunnyG..Everything but jerky..
I've got a 72 year young guide & friend up there who can do everything with God's gift of wild game..I'll have him do some.. Sorry to post and run, but I've got to run my #6 of 7, out to a lake cottage, to shovel 3 inches of 'global warming' and turn up the heat for some guests coming up at noon. Catch you on the return, got some errands to run. Warmest Regards, JP.

GunnyG
You guys are killin' me here! Do you have any idea how long I have been yearning to get to eat BEAR?

Y'all are sadists... Gunny, I might just pretend I am a lib for a day to get you to take me hunting!

tanabear
Neo-conism? Please. How about liberalism? That's really what he's talking about and you prove the point. Liberals and their socialist ideas are what's dangerous. Dr Sowell explains it very clearly and simple even for you libs to understand. But, since you folks on the left can't seem to grasp these gems of logic and solid economics, you resort to posts like yours. Lame. You didn't say why his column was wrong or even try to defend your idea of why you disagree. You simply withdrew from the debate and tossed in some made up term of "neoconism". How about trying to think for yourself and maybe understand what's being discussed. As for your point of killing enough people to change a culture, well wake up sister because that's what the radical islamics are trying to do. But, you and the rest of the left seem to think we are the problem. It was any neocon that attacked USA on 9/11. It wasn't the neocons who have attacked U.S. personnel around the world in Somalia, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, U.S Embassies, and its not the neocons who are behind the majority of the conflicts arund the world. Its time you people on the left wake up and see what's really going on and who the real enemy is. I'll give you a clue, its not the neocons.

KAEP
KAEP needs to read his history more closely. BTW the escalator theory doesn't work. Progress is neither guaranteed nor universal.

Capitalism has little to do with terrorism even though most of the prominent current round of terrorism is anti-capitalist. The current round of terrorism has more to do with deep seated pathologies, a sense of cultural inferiority ("why aren't my corn flakes as crunchy as Israeli corn flakes" per Bernard Lewis), and a lack of respect for the individual.

For those who condem textile sweatshops in the third world ask youself this: "Why do job seekers crowd into the hiring offices for jobs that pay $1 for a 12 hour day?" The obvious reason is that the alternative is less palatable.

FergusMacLennan
Treat yourself to a bear hunting trip in Alaska.

I'm going one day. For now, I'm in a hunting club but this year past, I was on a few missions that precluded making the seasons. Looking good for spring turkey season and definately deer in the fall.

kill it and grill it. The Conservative lifestyle. (Check my blog link below)

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/04b80b88-b65b-4707-a9a0-5465d7c80ad0

Jeter
If we had a level playing field the market would determine Jeters value. Performance is the yardstick to determine value it makes no diffreance if it came for natural ability or hard work,(or both).

The products we buy are worth more to us than the money but some products we have to buy to live. So, the "un-level" playing field is a hidden tax that we pay because of outrageous compensation packages, (the consumer pays for everything). Follow the money. The feds get half and lawyer agents get10-20%.

Merit
Aren't merit and productivity the same thing? What you accomplish should be the measure of what you earn and deserve. Innate talent matters. But you can't accomplish anything significant unless you work hard and apply it. Both talent and hard work are required for significant accomplishment.

But again, who can gainsay the results? That is what counts, and is the measure of what a person has earned. The precise mixture of talent and work required to produce it is impossible to gauge.

Eyes on the Prize: Merit
No, merit and productivity are NOT the same thing.

Here's an example: imagine a typical 18th century blacksmith. Here's a man who has paid serious DUES. He has apprenticed for a period of 5-7 years... he has worked as a journeyman smith for another 5-10. He has created his masterwork, and earned the Master Smith title, which enables him to own his own shop, take on apprentices, and so on. He has paid an enormous investment of time, sweat, and likely blood, to learn his craft. No one can deny his MERIT.

But then, WHOOPS! Along came the Industrial Revolution, which allowed previously UNDREAMED-OF productivity, where a man's relatively (compared to the smith) untrained labor could far outstrip what that old-style smith was able to produce. This is why blacksmiths, for the most part, became an extinct breed in the 19th century, relegated to the roles of farriers, who themselves pretty much disappeared with the advent of cheaply produced cars in the early 20th century.

If a man today were to undergo all the same rigorous training that that smith did - and a few do, a very few - his merit would be undeniable. In terms of the modern industrial economy, however, his productivity would be a pittance, requiring vastly higher sums of money for individual pieces.

Try, just try, obtaining a hand-forged knife for even 1/10th of what you can buy a process-manufactured knife for. How large is the market for such exorbitant craftsmanship? Very small, that's what makes it a niche market.

No, the distinction between merit and productivity is all too clear, once you think about it.

duke: Jeter
You have a point, but it only points in the direction Sowell would have you go: toward less government intervention in private enterprise. For municipalities to build stadia for their teams is just the sort of intervention in the market which Sowell and the rest of us loathe.

Entertainment...
The majority of the entertainment industry is successful based on it's ability to appeal to the emotionally weak who will pay vast sums of their limited income with hopes that the entertainment will massage their weak egos - providing them with something(?) to feel good about. As long as suckers exist that will vote for tax increases to build new arenas and pay high prices for tickets to the events held within these arenas, the entertainers will enjoy extremely large contracts with the blessings of the attendees - most of whom will complain about the high costs of health care but somehow will find the money to attend these events.

Check this out ..
http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/061229-machan-FDR.php

BTW, the above site also publishes Dr. Sowell's articles. Some (but not all) are duplicates of his articles published here on Townhall.com

Worth it?
I respect Dr. Sowell a great deal, but unfortunately, he doesn't answer his own rhetorical question in this article. Uncle Max did so above. Thank you.

This is why I vote with my dollars. If I don't like a company's business practices, I won't buy their products or invest in their stock. This also has worked out to be a pretty good investment strategy.

When the market ceases to bear $35M compensation packages for CEOs (i.e. "What do these people actually do to earn that kind of money?"), then CEOs will cease to be paid $35M. A company can pay its board of directors in whatever way it can convince shareholders to approve - just not with my money.

Another great column
It's not surprising that tanabear doesn't know why misconceptions regarding the creation of wealth are so dangerous.

Hey everybody! It's not in tanabear's Top 10! It's all madness I tell you, MADNESS!!

...

Most of ecomonics is a paradox to liberals. That's why their policy prescriptions tend to inhibit growth.

Entertainment [slightly off-topic]
Despite the obvious bias that exists in Hollywood, I can't find fault with their practices. After all, they sell a product (that happens to be entertainment), and they cannot coerce anyone to spend $8 to consume their product.

If KAEP and his buddies (who have probably watched Syriana 10+ times) believe that Hollywood's product is fact, and not fiction, that isn't Hollywood's problem!

Similar things can be said for those who 'get their news from Jon Stewart, or Steven Colbert', as has been reported lately. You can't blame Stewart, Colbert or the Comedy Channel - they're in it for the advertizing dollars, and are doing THEIR job. If their biased comedy finds a market and therefore sells soap, well, so be it ..

But one has to question the intellect of those who don't understand the difference between a fictional movie (or a comedy show) and reality.

On the same subject, one has to also question the intellect of those who benefit from Capitalism but decry it at every opportunity.

Capitalism is responsible for the development of Technology which, in turn, provides a world-wide market for entertainment.

So, when stalwarts like Michael Moore, George Clooney et al talk about the evils of American Capitalism - the analogy that comes to mind is that of a plumber who laments the invention of indoor plumbing!

Without Capitalism, these guys would be nothing more than boozy story tellers, spinning yarns for a nickel apiece around a camp fire!

Mad_Mike
An absolutely worthy approach. The problem for leftists is their long intellectual tradition of an "enlightened elite" to make the important decisions for all the rest of us unenlightened slobs. In this case, allowing the "smerdy," the peadantry, to vote with their dollars, is that it's too slow, too uncertain. The elites KNOW the objective they want to achieve, and if the peons won't go along, then D*MN democracy, and full speed ahead!

Values ARE Subjective
In reply to the intellectual Gestell's claim that the above statement cannot be proved by "empirical science," it CAN be proved by common sense and plain sight. To say that values are subjective means simply that a given item has more utility and/or appeal for some persons than for others---and more or less for a given person depending on time and place.

I like ham sandwiches. Some people don't. Therefore a ham sandwich has no objective value. I won't buy one for lunch any time soon because I received a ham for Christmas and have been enjoying it at breakfast. These days I don't value a ham sandwich enough to pay $4 or $5 for one. Later when I do, the sandwich will have more value at noon when I'm hungry than at 3 PM when I'm not.

A bottle of water has more value when a person is thirsty than when not. This is why people don't drink water uniformly or randomly in summer and winter, day and night, or before and after a workout.

An elderly widow whom I know recently sold her large house and bought a 2-bedroom condominium. The house had less value to her than before, when her husband was living. The younger family who bought the house valued it more than she. All this is nothing but common sense and plain sight. Let the intellectual Gestell use "empirical science" to prove my statements false, if he or she can.

Gestell makes the foolish error of confusing value with virtue, morality and justice. The rest of us know better than to waste time bickering over the moral aspect of choosing things with more utility and appeal over things with less. The notion of "objective value" is not only false and stupid (as just shown) but indeed evil. Imposing some "objective" values to override the people's own countless choices would violate their inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness.

VOR
Mexico and its not a guess. You save me quite a bit of typing.

voice_of_reason
If you haven't, you should read the essay on Michael Moore on madrepublic.com. Fascinating stuff.

Matthew
Not a bad analogy with what's going on right here in the states. Voters are shareholders are voters. Our CEO, the feds in DC, have been selling us out my whole lifetime. The Social Security Ponzi scheme, collapsing Medicaid, the latest drug bill which looms as the biggest most expensive entitlement program in maybe 20 years, the pols will have theirs and be long gone when the fit hits the shan in about 15 years. Talk about rewarding failure. Which reminds me, where's that poster who used to say check my blog headsmustroll? I voted throw the bums out for 30 years. I voted FOR Ronnie for 8. Now its back to throw the bums out. Only when re election rates drop below 70 percent will there be any representative govt.

CEO Compensaton
Shareholders elect boards of directors. The directors appoint compensation committees. The committees study numerous factors to develop recommendations for executive compensation. The board votes on these recommendatons, reserving the authority to change them. The whole process is democratic, with ultimate power resting with shareholders. Shareholder apathy figures large in what's seen as excessive CEO pay. That said, another large factor is relative scarcity. It may sound unfair, but the fact is that there are very few people who have the experience and talents required to run a large company. With the collective fate of thousands of shareholders and employees depending on the success of every decision you make, neither group would just hire some Bozo off the street. The fact that there are few with the necessary skill set relative to the demand for them raises the asking price significantly. Using the baseball analogy, look at left handed starting pitchers. On the news today we see that Barry Zito (LHP) just sifned a multi year contract for $126 million.

Re: value of computers. The source of real value of a computer or any other tool of production lies not in the intrinsic value of its parts, but in the value of the goods or services that can be produced using that tool.

CEO comp is a lot more complicated...
...than baseball salaries for several reasons, not the least of which is agency cost.

If people don't understand the baseball example after having it explained so well by Sowell and some of those commenting here, then understanding the dynamics of corporate governance is not going to be easy either. But here goes...

To recruit a CEO, the Board appoints a search committee who works with an outside recruiting firm and...skip ahead...they decide who they want to hire. Now, say you're HP and the new CEO can either destroy or create billions of dollars in shareholder value. How much do you pay? You pay whatever you have to pay to get who you want. $35 million? $135 million? How about $10 million more than whatever his current employer pays? What difference does it make? How much was Jack Welsh worth? It's a free exchange of value and both sides benefit.

Then, other CEO's in the industry, or in other industries look for similar packages. Sometimes they are necessary and sometimes they aren't.

Although Mad_Mike's method oversimplifies the situation, it will help him avoid investing in bad companies with incompetent CEO's who are better at increasing their own compensation pacakge than in increasing market share or shareholder value.

But the Democrats are always on the horizon, ready to bring the government into the process, not to make it better or fix anything that's broken, but to pander for the votes of the under-educated people who think the government should get involved.

I said above that liberals don't understand economics. That's not actually true. Lots of leading Democrats do understand that their policy of the day will destroy value and make people poorer. But the extra votes are worth it.

Savage99, right on the money!
Re: typing -- always glad to help!!

FergusMacLennan
The link that you suggested (madrepublic.com) seems to be wrong. Can you re-post? Thanks!

CEO's Easy Targets
Complaining of the obscene amounts of money that CEO's earn is not really fair in the grand scheme of things. FOr example, the largest automaker in the world (at least for now) is General Motors. Last year its CEO, Rich Wagoner, made $5.5 million in salary and stock option. GM also employs 324,000 people worldwide.

If Mr. Wagoner, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to work the entire year for free and distribute his entire annual salary equally among his company's rank and file, each person would receive a bonus at year's end of a whopping $16.96 (before taxes!). Or he could afford to give everyone in the company a raise of 0.8 cents/hour.

BFD!

Tanabear,
When you bring 'neo-cons' into this discussion, you seem to suggest that the neo-con strategy is at the top of YOUR $#!t list.

Presumably you are saying that neo-cons are responsible for more misery & deaths than some abstract, theoretical re-distribution theory called socialism?

The history books give ample evidence about the misery and death caused by socialism (or its Elder Brother, Communism).

Setting socialism aside for a moment, consider the history of the oil-rich, terrorism-producing failed states:

* Lacking the rule of law (or any semblance of Capitalist-style rights to property), the strongest of the local tribes (with the backing of extremist religious cliques) 'owned' the land

* Western engineers - while commissioned to look for water - discovered oil deposits in the 1950s

* 'evil' Capitalist oil companies, when seeking only to purchase & export oil that was discovered in those lands, found that there were no objective private ownership of those lands - they had to purchase drilling rights and the product (crude oil) from the ruling tribe.

* the nouveau riche ruling tribal chieftans chose to squander their wealth, ensuring that nothing trickled down

* Impoverished youth, fueled by their extremist beliefs, resort to terrorism

Clearly, neo-cons are to blame!

I'm not a big fan of the neo-cons; in my opinion, they are seeking to export 'democracy', which doesn't go far enough.

But, really, the movement that has come to be labelled as neo-conservative is only a 'reaction' to the evil of terrorism.

For this to be at the top of your list is to announce that you subscribe to the typical anti-Bush hysteria.

In reality, the right economic model makes ALL the difference in whether a country succeeds or fails. So, when Dr. Sowell talks about the perils of accepting a socialist ideology - he is making perfect sense.

reply to jfp and johninwestseattle
Mainstream economics regards all values as subjective because it is based on a point of view
according to which there can be no objectively valid meanings for any words or concepts concerned with "value" ("moral" or otherwise) Even the very term "value" itself--a product originally of early 19th century political economy--points us toward subjectivism. Please note that conventional economics has no room for such concepts as "merit" and within its framework no one ever "deserves" or fails to deserve what they get.

The premise of economics is correctly identified as a metaphysical premise because it depends upon a particular understanding of the world we live in as devoid of any source of value other than our own preferences and desires.

Libertarians love this view of the world, but conservatives should reject it utterly. Intelligent conservatives do reject it, and have rejected it, for a couple of centuries now.

I'm sure neither of you guys has ever heard of the conservative thinkers I mentioned, and I doubt seriously if you would comprehend them, but take a look sometime. You might learn something.

FergusMacLennan..A Rich Liberal?
Old Jack & I'll take you out bear hunting, but only if you're a 'rich liberal'. I tend to charge a little more for liberals, because they tend to not add anything to good conversation, and make an otherwise 'fun and short day' a 'dull and long one' for Jack and me. And old Jack gets his guiding fee 'by the day', so if the day seems...longer... thats only fair.

Deserving a little extra is also justified when it comes to guiding liberal's kids, as opposed to guiding children of a conservative. The liberal tends to warn a dozen times or more a mis-behaving brat, before taking action. And that turns out to something on the order of inefective 'quiet time'. Quiet time tends to not work all that well in a boat. The conservative tends to tell the child once, the child listens, knowing that the parent will 'parent'.

GunnyG when we go for bear in the bush, we leave ...muskyisland in the early morning with my boat, 18' with a 90hp, boat 15-20 miles to the hunting grounds. If the bruin got there first or doesn't show, we go limit out on walleye,lake trout, northern, or go for musky. Up here 50' min. is a legal musky. Then we have a shore lunch, quick frying in REAL lard. Which has once again become healthier!!) After lunch we get a little sleepy, so we nf 'oops' liberal fish for the lake trout. We run a line baited with a cisco to deep water, beach the boat, prop up the pole. As I say, the food made us in the mood for a nap..so..we wrap an empty 12 ounce can 2-3 times with the fishing line, just above the reel..and doze off. When the trout takes the cisco it pulls the line off the can, can lands on the rock..you wake..and pull in the fish.. Then it's back to bear hunting..I don't know about Alaska hunting, but can't imagine having more fun that this is. I guess that this is why I call it 'liberal fishing'...You get to eat an outstanding meal, and don't have to really have to do much work.

Ah shoot. Guests arrived, just called the 'ol lady, complaining about no DVD player, and guess I'll have to run one out. Well at least it gives me an excuse to raise an early elbow. Warmest regards..JP..


JP
Did some fishing in Alaska a few years back and trying to take a mission up there for the spring!

Folks go there every year.

Trying to get the wife to move there but so far no dice.

I myself am surprised that the libs don't flock up there since Alaska PAYS YOU to live there. I know that they love a free ride.

But then again, it takes WORK to survive and thrive there so I guess we're stuck with em!

a comment on tanabear
Most of you are imprecisely labeling him a liberal. I think he is probably quite the opposite, and by his own admission, an arch-conservative. His arguments sound very much like Pat Buchanan's brand of "conservatism," skeptical of hyper-capitalism, opposed to free trade and isolationist, probably with a dash of nationalism.

I'm not defending his point of view (although I tend to agree with Buchanan on domestic issues like immigration) but I think many are misidentifying each other's perspectives. Thats the problem when we label each other as "liberal" or "conservative."

Neoconservatism really has nothing to do with the ideological spectrum, although neoconservatism incorporates Wilsonian ideals with Jacksonian methods (read up on Samuel Huntington). Its very telling that many of the gentlemen who have pioneered "neoconservative" policy have been fairly liberal on domestic & social issues, such as Krauthammer. The "conservative" part only comes from their affiliation with Republican policy makers over the past few decades.

Oh well, carry on.

My One Objection

Most defenders here of Capitalism and the Free-Market seem to be assuming, forgive me if I'm wrong, that the United States is today as we speak a Capitalist, Free-Market country, and defend it as such, they could hardly be farther from the truth, we live in a very mixed-economy and have been living in such at least since the post Civil War when Lincoln and Henry Clay established their Mercantilist "American System".

In fact there has never been a true and completely Capitalist country anywhere on earth in all the history of mankind, the United States in it's first century simply came radically closer to being a true Capitalist Free-Market country than any other in the history of mankind, but that was quite a long time ago.

Unfortunately, many Socialist leaning and not so Socialist leaning people have never studied the distinction between Free-Market businessmen who create their wealth on their own and Mercantilist, corporate welfare establishment types who run to the government for protection and handouts, and to create schemes and laws to screw the Free-Market. Also, quite often in the history of American semi-Capitalism, businessmen who started out as Free-Market Capitalist types, became Mercantilist, protectionist, corporate welfare types, as soon as they became part of the establishment. It is this type of businessman and business, the Mercantilist and protectionists, that give Capitalism a bad name. The two types are often confused in the popular mind as being equally representative of Capitalism and the Free-Market, when in fact they are antithetical.

Capitalism was almost squashed in it's infancy by the backlash of resurgent Mercantilism, and then almost drowned by the almost simultaneous wave of Socialism that came a few decades after. We now live in an American economy which is a mixture of the poison of Mercantilism and Socialism and Capitalism trying to keep it's head above those poisoned waters.

Ayn Rand once said in the history of mankind it is sooner than we think, and that applies to Capitalism.


logic flaw
Your example of the person willing to spend money for a computer because the computer is more valuable (to them) than the money has a logic flow when juxtaposed with the issue of "value" and maximum income. The computer is not made by a single person, but represents an assembly of work, of which the computer is still just an interim step. Persumably, the buyer will use this tool (the computer) in the production of something else of value, even if it is just self-entertainment. Thus the exchange is not between two individuals, but rather between one individual and an entire sytem of integrated cooperation which resulted in the computer being in the store.

Similarly, the money the individual has in his pocket is the result of a mega-series of transactions. In other words, the appearance of individual choice is mostly an illusion. We are all hemmed in by our collective culture, but the primary motivation is desire, and that desire is not mathematically driven. The buyer could have a million dollars in cash and not desire the computer, or he could be poor and have a burning desire for the product. Neither desire is reflected in the price of the product, because the selling price is set by the sellers desires, AFTER he pays everyone associated with the production of the computer.

There seems to be a bias in your writing that a wealthy man serves everyone, but I think Henry Ford (who actually practiced business) had a better insight than what you offer. (Apologists for wealthy make up a huge class of allegedly "objective" economists, both owners and economists complained when he raised wages.) Ford knew that if he paid his employees more that they could then afford to purchase the car they assembled. This would occur either directly or indirectly, since the wages he pumped into the economy would all come back to purchase his goods.

The problem with your approach (being an apologist for the wealthy) is that you are making the claim that Business is the same as Economics, which is like saying Politics is the same as History. You are taking a short self-serving view of events, rather than looking at the big picture.

peace,
steve consilvio
http://www.behappyandfree.com


some thoughts
"The answer is simple. CEOs must be confined to no more than 2 times senior elected officials' salaries. That is all that is required." KAEP

This is absurd, and I can thank Marx for pointing the way. Any worker, rich or poor, in whatever position, will start to see the value (in $) of their productivity. So, if I'm Mr. Bigshot CEO and I'm making my corporation 300 Billion dollars a year and I only get paid 200K, I'm going to be very angry.

Once people decide "hey, I can only make this much as a ceo" they will look for jobs elsewhere. the only thing that will keep them there is if you fix all wages so that job movement is prevented or at least discouraged. and if that doesn't work, you make moving jobs illegal. and now you've hit the wonderful world of communism. i'm just pointing out that once you try to curtail a certain aspect of a market with socialist/communist practices, it carries a domino effect that can only be stopped through getting rid of these terrible pogroms or by increasing their efficacy through government sponsored intimidation.

"You've got it backwards. Senior elected officials should be paid NOTHING." BlueBastard

I just like this sort of Platonic view of politicians. Look at AHNOLD! (yes, that's how i always spell his name and hear it in my head), he's got a ton of money and so he doesn't have to worry about being influenced in that way. So, I would say not that they should get nothing, but that any sort of material gains they could obtain via their position as politicians should be disallowed.

"Only government, with its inability to fire the incompetent, no profit motive, and complete unaccountability, could produce the complex ineffective system you describe. It's not a symptom of a fallen world; it's a symptom of broken business model. Government functions much like socialism, with largely the same symptoms and results." scottie

This is the problem with having only regular elections or impeachment as the source of putting politicians into place: static governance. However, the opposite effect, people getting thrown out all the time, lends itself to unstable government. Also, something created for a decent purpose (controls on getting people in and out of political positions) can turn into a very partisan weapon against one's political enemies and therefore any good for which it was created is thereby destroyed.

Where can we find a better balance? That's my question to all of you.

"However, Thomas Sowell has yet to state why this idea is dangerous. It is certainly a bad idea. But bad ideas a dime a dozen in Washington today. It certainly would not make my top ten list." -Tanabear

"Presumably you are saying that neo-cons are responsible for more misery & deaths than some abstract, theoretical re-distribution theory called socialism?" -voiceofreason

I think tanabear has a valid point in bringing up the problems with neo-conservatism. By way of analogy, if we were in the same room together and you were bleeding to death you'd think that was a huge problem. If in that same room there was a leak from a faucet and I considered that the biggest problem to deal with, and thus the one to be dealt with first, you'd have a valid reason to argue that it wasn't and I should consider tying off your severe flesh wound.

In fact, by writing this column Sowell declares what he thinks is one of the worst evils. The contention that it is bad to a certain degree is included in it. So, by stating to tana that liberalism is the worst you are doing nothing more than reiterating his point but substituting what you believe to be the worst.

This is what voice-of-reason does in response. He just makes the same claim with the substantive ideas switched. However I think the debate is crude and does nothing since: A) you're not actually doing anything to solve the problems, and b) unless you disagree that the neo-conservative agenda is bad, you agree that it is bad, and therefore you're just trying to pick which is the worst of two evils and combat that. So, tana and voice are both morally incorrect in thinking because one is worse the other does not have to be dealt with.

Sure, you can say practically you have to choose one over another, but if you let pragmatism win the day instead of values we'll end up in some weird utilitarian world where people only do what is easy instead of what is right.

"But Steinbrenner is not paying for Jeter's merit. He is paying for his productivity, whether at bat or in the field. Somebody who worked twice as hard and was still only half as good would never get the same money that Jeter gets.

I would add that Steinbrenner is paying for Jeter's MARKET VALUE. If everybody in the world suddenly started watching twiddly-winks instead of baseball, it wouldn't matter how excellent Jeter's baseball skills were. He'd simply be one of the better producers of a relatively worthless activity.

Similarly, you don't see expert Twiddly-Wink players pulling down big bucks, even if they happen to work harder than Jeter, and even if, compared side-by-side in their respective "sports", the Twiddly-Wink player was actually more productive than Jeters. The simple fact of the matter is that Twiddly-Winks doesn't have the same value on the market. - UncaAlby

I would respond with the fact that productivity assumes within its conceptual framework the idea that it sells. Productivity is defined by Sowell as being able to sell well. You are confusing productivity qua the act for its own sake and productivity qua the act for profit. Thus the same distinction Sowell makes (and Fergus reiterates) between merit and productivity. Merit is gained by doing something for its own sake, or the sake of hard work, if you will. Productivity assumes able to be sold.

"The premise of economics is correctly identified as a metaphysical premise because it depends upon a particular understanding of the world we live in as devoid of any source of value other than our own preferences and desires. " - Gestell

Perhaps you should stop telling people to read conservatives and read August Comte and more into Positive Philosophy. Sowell is not making a normative claim "that things should only have value as per those who value them," but the descriptive claim "that things actually only have value as per those who value them."

There is nothing metaphysical about it because you are assuming subjective reality (the mind of the valuer) and not absolute reality (the universe, material and noncorporeal, if you fancy dualism) to begin with. Of course, you can criticize what people value but it does nothing to figure out how and why they come to value those things. This is crucial to Sowell's argument: how and why people value things.

Economics is a positive science inasmuch as we study the phenomena presented to us without regard to how and whether it should be presented to us. Physics is another good example. I can study how it is that the bullet left your gun and penetrated the skull of another human being without making a judgment about what has been done. I do not have to assume it was a bad moral decision to learn the properties of the object in flight.

It is true, the introduction of positive philosophy cleared the way for much atheism and doubt in god, but I contend that this was not necessary. The fact that we cannot use reason or experience to ascertain the existence of god (and thus faith) does not mean we should only believe those items that are the subjects of reason and experience exist. In other words, just because I don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

So, to conclude, economics makes no metaphysical claims inasmuch as it does not begin saying that something's objective value is whatever someone's subjective value of it may be. It only claims that something's subjective value is given by the subject, which has more to do with epistemology and ethics if at all any branch of philosophic inquiry.

What logic flaw?
Steve,
You're attempt at persuasion is leaving you muddled in definition. The computer seller sets the price after paying, as you said, "AFTER he pays everyone associated with the production of the computer..." Well, that may be true, but if the manufacturer down the road or on another website sells a similar computer for less than he will, he may be free to set his price, but nobody will buy it. The buyer sets the price, not the seller. If you still disagree, I've got a lovely laptop I'll sell you for only a mere $50,000...
About Ford's employees, he paid them more. That is a cost associated with production: wages. His motive doesn't change the fact that it impacted his "bottom line." Like many a good businessman, he took a gamble, in his case that the "wages he pumped into the economy would all come back to purchase his goods..."
It worked for him.
Assuming you actually want to see how this whole "economy" thing works, and you aren't just one of the liberal fanatics who posts on conservative sites to try and recruit, this blog explains economics in even a way you'd understand.
http://libertylamp.townhall.com/

Gestell
What value has God set for a Sony 20" FD Trinitron® WEGA® Flat-Screen TV?

How much does God say I should pay for my son's education?

Where do I look up in God's Book o' Values how much to give my husband for his birthday?

What value has God assigned to a social predator who tries to murder me?

Handy
Good description of values and prices.

To those who believe values are objective, what is the value of freedom?

Elaborating on Libertybob to Steve
I'll start off by saying I won't be addressing any other comments than the one's below because I can't make heads or tails of the rest. Steve, if you can, in particular, clear up what you mean by the juxtaposition you mentioned I'd be very grateful.

"Thus the exchange is not between two individuals, but rather between one individual and an entire sytem of integrated cooperation which resulted in the computer being in the store."

The transactional history (and cost) of the computer through time does set it's selling price, however, it does not determine the actual sale price of the computer. Nor does it determine the sale price of any of the previous steps in making the computer.

Let's use a different example: a goat. Let's say a herder (one that made his own walking stick and has amassed stray goats over time) decides to sell one of his goats. Presumably he took the goat out of nature by his own hands, so there was only one step in production and that was acquisition. Now he wants to turn around and sell it. If there were a person who wanted to buy it for $10 and he agreed to the price, he did it of his own accord considering how hard he worked for it.

Now let's say that guy turns around and sells it for $15. Is it because of the previous owner's hard work? No. It is because of the $10 he spent, which itself was determined by he and the previous owner.

I know what you'll say, "that proves the transactional history sets price." Not so. Should the new owner seek $15 and is not able to sell it for anymore than $5, he's lost $10 because he had to recover any money. Thus, his desire for $15 had nothing to do with it selling at $5. It was his desire for as much as he could gain that took over. This is an example of liquidation. At any point any object can lose value just because the market will not bear a specific price. Since it is contingent, and not necessary, for the previous transaction to be included in the price, you cannot make the claim that seller is the only person who sets the price and the buyer's desire has nothing to do with it. It is in fact always a push and pull between the two, and anyone with an elementary understanding would understand that a seller's setting a selling price does not determine it's sale price, a distinction you fail to make here:

"The buyer could have a million dollars in cash and not desire the computer, or he could be poor and have a burning desire for the product. Neither desire is reflected in the price of the product, because the selling price is set by the sellers desires, AFTER he pays everyone associated with the production of the computer."

The price can changer AFTER he sets the selling price. So yes, you are correct, the seller's determinations set the selling price, however, that's not the end of the story. The end of the story is the sale price.

"Similarly, the money the individual has in his pocket is the result of a mega-series of transactions. In other words, the appearance of individual choice is mostly an illusion. We are all hemmed in by our collective culture, but the primary motivation is desire, and that desire is not mathematically driven."

I tend to disagree with the first two sentences, but inasmuch as those claims rely on the third sentence for justification and I don't quite understand what you mean by the third sentence, I cannot make a claim of my own. I'd very much also appreciate if you could let me know what you mean by this paragraph.

Handy
a very excellent and concise way of putting it! i just wish i could learn how to write in that way. i think most people don't read my posts because they are entirely too long. :(

Freedom
I don't like the way this term is being thrown around. Much like the term value. If we could come up with a consistent terminology I think we could all benefit.

Freedom:

To be left alone from others. To be safe from the initiaion of force by other human beings, either directly or through the agency of government. To be able to pursue in action the conclusions of one's thinking, so long as those actions do not violate the freedom of thought and action and property of other human beings.

Therefore freedom entails indiviual rights; the right to think, live, and take action according to the conclusions of one's thought, to pursue happiness. And freedom therefore entails private property rights, the right to keep the products of one's thoughts and actions.

Major Omisssion
Most economic analyses and dissertations overlook or omit the fact that the source of wealth comes from the ordinary people. Sowell, a brilliant man in many subjects, says "As for the rest of us, it is none of our business what Steinbrenner pays Jeter. It's their deal. If we don't understand it, there is no reason why our ignorance should influence what happens."

Well, Steinbrenner gets the money from "...gate receipts, the sale of television rights, and other sources of revenue." And those sources get it from people buying the tickets, the products and services. Obviously, the high salaries, bonuses, etc are affecting the price people are paying. Those who are hurt are those without discretionary income where every cent counts. There should be a limit on the ridiculous high remunerations given to corporate managers and athletes. How to do this in a free economy is the question and I do not have the answer -- but please, do not say the ridiculous high salaries and bonuses are nobody else's business.

It isn't moral
I am adamantly opposed to a socialistic redistribution of income. At the same time I question the personal morality and maturity of a CEO who demands a salary of millions of dollars (just because he or she can get it) when his or her own employees are earning a mere fraction of that amount, often at minimum wage and without benefits. It just isn't moral. Do I judge such a person? You bet I do.

no omission
VOXPOP, that was the whole point of the article. The reason people buy those tickets, gate reciepts, etc.. is because those people consider viewing a sports event of greater worth than their dollar. People like you who think there should be a limit on their salaries: don't go to sporting events. Simple. (its that whole "freedom" thing... look it up...)

Signing off..For the Great White North..
I'm relatively new to this internet/blog type stuff. Never took it seriously. Look at most folks 'posting' out there as taking all this too seriously. Sometimes, we all just got to get back to the basics. Take a walk in the woods, get back to the outdoors, not let the negative control us. Unfortunately, many cannot. Their jungles are of the concrete type stuff. As for myself, I tried to make a difference. Ran for the State Legislature, as 'THE' conservatuive choice. Lost to a RINO. Have fun, check back with you all next week. Hey TOM! Hope you enjoyed you vacation, nice series! PS: Hold a SAD-DAM (as 'ol Bush says) Lynching party. HANG HIM HIGH!!!

Help
I don't know Consilvio, but he has hijacked my moniker. Once again, the price anyone pays for a product is based on the expectation of the buyer of the future value of the use of that product or srevice.

oops
Sorry about the typo - meant service.

MarilynBr -- WHY isn't it moral?
After all, the CEO is providing jobs for those folks making a fraction of what he's making by making decisions that make million$ for the company.

When you do something that creates wealth, there is nothing immoral about keeping a goodly chunk of it as payment. Sure, IF YOU WANT TO, you can spread the wealth around. But there is nothing in the Law or the Bible that says YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO.

You are morally obligated to pay the workers the *agreed* wage, no more no less. If the workers feel they can get a better wage elsewhere, they'll leave.

Or do you also feel the workers have a moral obligation to continue working at a company, even if they can get a better offer from someone else? If the workers are free to leave for better compensation elsewhere, why isn't the CEO? After all, if this company is only paying him a half million, but some other company is willing to pay him a full million, then why shouldn't he leave to work there?

This happened at Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream. They started off with the idealistic notion that no employee would earn more than 5 times any other employee. It wasn't long before they found this was impossible -- they were faced with the choice of either NOT being able to find a competent CEO who knew how to run a company of the size they'd grown to, or paying the janitors $200,000/year, which surely would have bankrupted the company.

CEO wages are subject to market conditions, just like everything else. It just turns out that someone with the skills necessary to run a good-sized company happens to command a princely sum in the marketplace. If you have a good-sized company and you want it run right, you simply have no other choice.

Let all the POISON lurking
Let all the poison that lurks in the mud .. hatch out!

And when it has, and everyone has stopped patting themselves on the back, I will be BACK.

And I will show why CEO arbitraging of essential world assets, corrupt leveraging of American and world governments, subsequent manipulation of investment regulations and anti-trust elimination of competition is creating the stage for terrorism against America that will make 9/11 look like a day out to Disney.

In the meantime enjoy this poem borrowed from Randy Newman:

No one likes us CEOs-just because we arbitrage you up the eye
We may not be perfect, heaven knows we try
We pay ourselves multi-million bonuses even with the kitty dry
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's pump and dump 'em and watch 'em drown

We STEAL all their evil money- but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful, covetous and they're hateful
They 9/11 us, they don't respect us - so let's surprise them
We'll pump and dump them till our markets bull

We'll save Australia
But we're gonna rape that flying Kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
Privatise their highways, mining, water, media, farming, john howard and surfin', too

And every city the whole world round
We'll tax-collect, just like any another American town
Oh, how profitable it will be
They all hate us CEOs as much as we'll allow,
So let's pump and dump their women
With childcare its as easy as ABC
So let's get cracking, unzip our flys
As a matter of fact, I think we'll pump and dump 'em now!
And the best part?
We got the franchise on Jesus
So he can't come back and save 'em anyhow.



drewrush, re: tanabear
I think that you mis-understood my response to Tanabear! I apologize if there wasn't sufficient clarity in my post - but the main thrust was about cause-and-effect.

Tanabear's post, in a nutshell, was to remonstrate Dr. Sowell (an eminent economist) for writing about economics of wage disparity. The article clearly demonstrates the author's leanings towards laissez faire capitalism.

Quoting Tanabear:
"It is certainly a bad idea. But bad ideas a dime a dozen in Washington today. It certainly would not make my top ten list. Hey Thomas, why don't you write four columns on a real dangerous idea. It is called neo-conism."

S/he didn't refute Dr. Sowell's point - in fact, s/he agreed with it, but said that it wasn't as important to him as the fact that neo-cons were killing lots of people to 'push' democracy.

My post was an attempt to show that the neo-con way of thinking (whatever that really is) is merely an 'effect', a reaction to a problem. IMO, the lack of capitalist ideology is the 'cause' of terrorism.

KAEP, dude!
I'm sorry to say this, but your writing has taken a SHARP turn for the worse! Presumably you have been out getting intoxicated with your glassy-eyed socialist friends?

Are you actually hoping for a terrorist attack, so that you can 'come BACK' and show us how the gnarly, heinous CEOs are responsible for 9/11?

'Anti-trust elimination of competition'?
Kind of dangling all those multi-syllabic words out there from the talking points, aren't you, laddie?

Speaking of big, big words, whatever happened to the ol' Thermodynamic Entropy business?

Oh, wait a minute! I take everything back! You've quoted Randy Newman - sorry, I am deeply chagrined. There is no way that mere mortals can refute the words of Randy Newman, the eminent economist and political scientist.

How Hard Could It Be

TO GET IT RIGHT???????????? !!!!!!!!

Damnear all you dummies keep talking about "Capitalism" as if you know what the hell you are talking about.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CAPITALISM!!!!!!

Everyone uses the word - no one knows what it means. It doesn't mean ANYTHING.

Every economic construct in the history of humanity utilizes capital. Period. No exceptions. Communism is capitalistic. So is communalism. So are convents and monastarys. So is the economy of
EVERY.....SINGLE.....COUNTRY.....IN.....THE.....WORLD.

What most of you are probably refering to is the heavily regulated, central bank manipulated, halfway socialistic, partially free-market economy of the United States.

Why can't you dummies figure that out? A word that means EVERYTHING means NOTHING.

BlueBustard - -
How's about we call it "Free Market Capitalism"?

I'd like to use "laissez-faire", but collectivists have given the phrase a bad name. Plus I can't ever remember how to spell it.

UncaAlby
I've heard that term applied to the US economy, but we are so thoroughly regulated, taxed, and manipulated that, while there is an element of truth to it, it hardly seems adequately descriptive.

How about Inhibited Entrepreneurism?

CEO Compensation
I'm a big fan of Dr. Sowell. He and Dr. Williams make me wish that I majored in Economics. However, executive compensation can be artificially inflated above market value by the sometimes incestuous nature of corporate directorships. In some corporations the CEO is also the board chairman. Despite numerous ballots on the proxy statements, this doesn't ever get changed by the shareholders of the company for which I work. The company does fairly well, so I'm not too upset.
Wasn't it Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco) who used the defense of being too stupid to be a proper CEO? That always made me chuckle.

VoxPop -- Mistakes
"VoxPop" -- Voice of the People? I'd like to hope not!


quoth VoxPop: "Most economic analyses and dissertations overlook or omit the fact that the source of wealth comes from the ordinary people."

But it takes the hard work and genius of a few risk-taking entrepreneurs concentrate that wealth.

Look at it this way -- if Steinbrenner didn't have a baseball team, and if no one else did -- do you suppose that all those people would, instead of buying tickets to a game, just dump all their money into a pile? Then whoever just stumbled on to the pile would become wealthy?

No, they'd spend their money elsewhere.

Steinbrenner et al make their money by providing a product and/or service that people willingly purchase. People would *rather* enjoy the baseball game than use that money for something else. That's how the rich get rich.



quoth VoxPop: "Those who are hurt are those without discretionary income where every cent counts."

Nobody is twisting their arm to see a baseball game, for crying out loud! If their financial situation is that tight, they need to sit at home and watch on TV. But that's their decision, isn't it? Not yours.



quoth VoxPop: "There should be a limit on the ridiculous high remunerations given to corporate managers and athletes. How to do this in a free economy is the question and I do not have the answer -- but please, do not say the ridiculous high salaries and bonuses are nobody else's business."

BIG mistake. THERE IS NO WAY IN A FREE SOCIETY TO PUT CAPS ON COMPENSATION.

And every time a government tries, all they end up doing is chase away the very people with the competence and the ability to create wealth. They take their money and they run, most often taking jobs and the economy along with them.

So -- to say again what VoxPop says should not be said -- the ridiculous high salaries and bonuses are NONE of any of our business. Not yours, not mine, not the "experts" in Moscow.

And VoxPop knows this, which is why he(she?) doesn't "have an answer" to how to put caps on compensation in a free society. In his(her?) *head*, s/he knows that a Free Society is extremely valuable to the wealth and happiness of its citizens. But in his(her) heart, s/he's been brainwashed by the liberal/socialist fixation on "equality of results".

Just remember, Socialism is generally able to achieve equal results, so long as you don't mind everyone being equally miserable.

How About

SAGE? "Struggling Against Governed-Economy."

Or GEISM? "Governated Entrepreneurialism In Slow Motion."






Imagine The Mighty Blue Bustard

Pinned down in his back forty by seventeen bureaucrats and ten terrorists with M-60's and RPGs, but he can STILL make a living for his family.

I wonder what would happen if just the bureaucrats would do something else?

BlueBustard -- Terminology
I still like "Free Market Capitalism", as a reasonable term with reasonable semantic accuracy.

If somemone happens to mention that the US economy is Free Market, I doubt they're talking about 100% perfect Free Market. Simply that the US economic system is, with all its flaws, considerably free-er than a whole lot of competing economies out there.

And besides, if we keep inventing new terminology just because the old stuff only fits to 1 decimal place (instead of 5), then all we're going to do is confuse everybody.

I, for one, am already confused enough, thank you very much!

Can You Imagine This Country

If there were NO TAXES on interest or capital gains?

UncaAlby

I see your point and reluctantly concede.

Free Market Entrepreneurialism it is.

But Now I Talk Like A School Teacher

Adding unnecessary sylables.

Free Market Entrepreneurism

How about that?

I Still Have A Big Beef With Marx

coining the word "capitalism," and then everyone using it like it MEANS something.

Karl Marx Said It
The redistributionists are just Communists and Socialists in disguise.

Our system
"Them that got the gold make the rules."

Or, "Socialism was invented by the super rich to let the middle class pay for it."

We have the best system in the world but we can make it better. We can start by teaching capitalism in schools. Several hours could be spent on Ayn Rand's "The Virtues of Selfishness." We can try to go back to the founding father's original intent of electing reprsentatives whe are not beholden to special interests big bucks,(that they need to pay for their re-election campaign),but whose purpose is to vote on what is best for the country and their state. This would make many of the problems go away.

Tanabear
I did read your column, but after reading it, I did not get the imnpression that you agreed w/ Dr Sowell. In fact, you give the imrpession that he is wasting his time w/ these columns when he really should be writing about your ideas. You lost me when you started on a rant about neocons. Sorry, but that is nothing more than an inflammatory word thrown around by libs to make conservatives seem bad. If you realy want to be concerned about who causing so much death around the world, go back and read my post again. I explained it very carefully. You can close your eyes and blame those "neocons" for the deaths in the world, but the truth is the same people who attacked us on 9/11 and all their minions are really responsible. For once, I'd like to hear you liberals admit that. Just plainly say who are real enemy is. That seems to be a hard thing for those on the left to do; identify the real enemy. Instead of blaming the real culprits, you sidestep and point fingers at America, or our leaders, or our policy or whatever program you dislike. Either way, you guys always avoid pointing the finger at the guilty ones. Until the left can admit hwho the enemy is, they will be useless in fighting them.

Dan
Good post to Tanabear. But use spell check or something. I makes you seem more worth listening to.

slabo
America was NOT founded as a DEMOCRACY.

America is and always has been a REPUBLIC.

Tanabear:
Your ignorance exceeds “very little”. Mr. Sowell is a great economist not a politician. Perhaps it is too hard for a liberal to understand what he communicates. If a person wants to make more money, than he must work for it. His work, however, must be in a job that commands higher wages. A greater education leads to better jobs at higher pay. This, of course, presupposes that a person wants to work as apposed to receiving hand outs from their government for their votes.

Of course, if people understood what Mr. Sowell writes, and were not misguided by their liberal leaders trying to secure their vote, they would not quit school because of the difficulty of effort required, but would try to graduate and move on to higher education and potentially higher wages. The liberals recognize this, but if schools did succeed they would lose votes. Therefore, the liberal makes every effort to dumb down our students by making educational standards as low as possible so that even if they do graduate, passing courses at a 10th grade level, they are still not smart enough to see the liberals’ ultimate agenda.

But keep believing what you believe Tanabear, because it just makes it easier for my hard working conservative grandchildren to succeed since they have parents that recognize the liberal goals, and push their children to go beyond the artificial standards set by the liberal “pigs” of Animal Farm.

reply to LobaAzul
How can conservativs be so absolutely clueless about what is historically one of their own primary beliefs? Clearly you guys need your own madrassahs so you can get some quality control among your believers.

Of course God has not set a value for the Sony TV. A believer in objective value doesn't have to entertain such a silly issue. Nor is it necessary to invoke God at all. Many believers in objective value (such as the vast majority of Western philosophers from the Greeks down to the 18th century) hold that there is a natural hierarchy according to which we do, or should, make evaluative judgments. God can be plugged into this (as in Jefferson's "nature and nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence), but nature alone will suffice.

Here's a more sensible way to think about each of your questions (which I'm sure you thought were real killers!)

Suppose that you had on hand the money needed to buy the TV, and you were faced with one of those decisions that can be invented for problems like the one we're discussing: You could spend the money on the TV or to buy that prescription needed to save Uncle Joe's life. It is objectively better to buy the prescription than the TV.

Of course several generations of economists have tried to persuade us that there is no difference between the choices: each is nothing more than a subjective preference, and as such beyond rational criticism. So if you picked the TV, I guess you could say, "Gee, that's just my preference." The implausibility of this view should be (perhaps) a little more clear.

To give this matter a little more political relevance, let's take your education example.

No, God doesn't have a dollar value in mind. The intelligent way to look at this would be to consider all of the other financial commitments you might have, and make a choice based on what traditional moral philosophy might call prudential considerations.

Now suppose that the cost of a college education was simply beyond your financial reach. There are other ways to pay for the education (loans, etc.)so you're still not out of luck.

Now take it one step further. Suppose that our society was such that college was too expensive for all but a tiny fraction of the wealthiest families. The conservative would have to decide whether this was simply OK, or whether there needed to be change. The real conservative would have to say that since a college education should not be an entitlement, that only those who can pay (however few they may be) should have an opportunity to go to college.

I'll look at your other examples. You can, I assume, imagine that there could be such a thing as spending too much on a gift for your husband.Suppose you cashed out all your investments and emptied your savings account for the gift. Most of us would think there was something wrong with that, and the objective value involved has to do with being responsible and caring for your family. Consider what most of us say (or think) when we read about someone who deliberately neglects her family for the sake of her own pleasure. The believer in objective value claims that our common reaction in such situations is an indicator of an objective standard.

As for the value God has given to that social predator, here you get to a dispute within Christianity as well as in all moral points of view influenced by Christianity. Some Christians think that this evil-doer simply deserves punishment and has no value in God's eyes. Other Christians believe that since the predator is a human being with a soul, he still has such value. After all, he could repent, change his behavior, experience a conversion, etc. All of this is at God's discretion, not ours. Stil other Christians claim that each human being has "infinite" worth as a child of God, and so they oppose capital punishment. So my conclusion is, pick the Christian view you like most (if you're a Christian) and go from there.

Actually, I suspect that by this time your patience has worn thin at trying to comprehend discussions like this, and you've just written me off as another one of them pointy-headed intellectuals.

I remember fondly the time when a liberal like me could actually argue with conservatives who had given some thought to such matters and had at least some idea of what was involved. Those days are long gone now, and most TH posters confirm this time after time.


Slabo:
Analize these two definitions, and enlighten me as to which has beat served mankind throughout modern history: (Source-Encyclopedia Britannica)

Liberalism:

political doctrine that takes the abuse of power, and thus the freedom of the individual, as the central problem of government. For liberals, power is most importantly abused by governments, but it may also be abused by the wealthy; by monarchs, aristocrats, and others with inherited authority and privileges; and indeed by any group that has the means and the inclination…

Conservatism:

political philosophy that emphasizes the value of traditional institutions and practices.
Conservatism is a preference for the historically inherited rather than the abstract and ideal. Conservatives prefer institutions and practices that have evolved gradually and are manifestations of continuity and stability.

It's obvious that the liberals have strayed from their "defined" path into a quagmire of meaningless policies and social agendas.

T Sowell for President

Great post and so true. Obviously you have not learned that from the Demo/lib playbook.

Isn't this akin to "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." President Lincoln if my memory serves me right.

Ed

Comment on Slabo
Generally, conservatives reject Kevin Phillips as a turncoat. Although he achieved some fame eaerly in his career as a political strategist usually connected with conservative Republicans, he became a populist critic of economic elites and the policies that protect them. He is not a conservative.

The question I've wanted to ask Phillips is this: Why were you surprised at the results of electing consrvatives to public office? If you don't like the policies that resulted, why did you work for these people in your youth?

CEO pay

A CEO once confided in me this tale.

His board of directors were to re-rate his pay after a few years with his company. To be fair because the board members were all friends of his by this time they elected to off-load the task to several "businesses" who specialized in suggesting CEO pay scales. Note the word "several" as this was to insure fairness. When the suggestions came back the board had to select one and to be fair to their friend took the highest of the suggestions.

This explained to me why the payscales are so high, and I've never since seen a case where this didn't fit.

Ed

Uncle Alby et al
Why does everyone concentrate on baseball salaries and tickets? It was just an example. Steinbrenner and others do not get the major share of their income from tickets! They get it from TV and other sources who get it FROM THE PRODUCTS THEY SELL TO ALL, INCLUDING THOSE WITHOUT DISCRETIONARY SPENDING. Was hoping someone would figure out a free market way to keep the ridiculous salaries from inflating prices. Perhaps, general uproar and disagreement could do it. Why not send e-mails to those who you believe are getting ridiculous amounts "because they can get it" but who you think do not deserve it.

voxpop, pretty soon....
it won't matter anyway. Sports will be outlawed because there can be no winners or losers in anything, cause that is just not fair. Besides that there won't be any children who want to play sports because their mommies and/or daddies didn't ever allow them to skin their knees.

At least that is what I envision if liberals get their way.

Sorry Slabo - Republic
The CIA Factbook categorizes the US government as a "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition"

Merriam-Webster states irt Republic: "a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law".

In our case, the "law" in question is the Constitution. Hence, "*Constitution-based* federal republic." In other words, the US, a Republic, is not *simply* a "Representative Democracy", as Slabo incorrectly states.

It doesn't matter if 51% of the duly-elected representatives vote to do something. If it's against the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land, it can not be done. Or at least it's not *supposed* to be done -- clearly, we have far too many examples where the Constitution is ignored.

Sure, the Constitution can be amended, using a democratic process. But the Founders made that a deliberately difficult task. They didn't want it be so flexible as to bend to the current whims and fashionable passions. The problem with being fashionable today, is that it's out of fashion tomorrow, but we're still stuck with obsolete laws.

Now, Slabo can pull up and misinterpret all the quotes he wants from his "Famous Quotations" book, from everybody from Joeseph Stalin to Michael Jackson -- and he can blast everybody with his unique style of flame baiting ad homenim -- none of that changes the facts of the matter.

Despite having strong democratic traditions, this United States of America is NOT a democracy. It never was, it isn't now, and hopefully it never will be.

"What luck for rulers that men do not think."
Adolf Hitler

Missing several points
I agree with Dr. Sowell that a true measure of an economic system is the extent to which progress can be made. While Dr. Sowell notes progress in such things as Television ownership, refrigerator and computer ownership, he might also agree that such things as our ability to defend ourselves is also important.

It's somewhat ironic to me Dr. Sowell chooses to an example of a baseball player as an example. Baseball is a protected monopoly, and it shows. I can only assume Dr. Sowell casts approbation on monopolies by using one as an example.

Monopolies are bad, in that they control the market. In this case, the number of franchises are limited to improve the earning powers of the existing franchises, in contravention to the invisible hand of the market place.

If you have any doubt about how bad monopolies are, consider the biggest most wasteful monopoly in the world, the US government, and how it operates.

It is also interesting to me to note how many conservatives talk about wealth redistribution, but fail to note the massive tax shifts from corporate and capital based taxes to income taxes. Social Security taxes, a massive, regressive based tax, is almost on par with income taxes as a source of revenue for the Federal Government. Yet somehow that the middle class is the true oxen that pulls the federal government doesn't seem to bother conservatives. They continue to complain about how the rich are unfairly maligned, when the truth is they obtain tremendous advantage from the current tax situation.

Their capital is increasingly protected intergenerationally, and the costs of maintaining the capital are smaller and smaller. Conservatives rail against the "Death tax." Yet the true cost of the ownership is paid for by the middle class, by way of money spent supporting the military, etc., which the ownership glibly takes advantage of by investing the money overseas.

I would feel conservatives are more intellectually honest if they would point out this historic change in funding of the federal government, rather than complaining about the increasingly reduced percentage of support the upper class pays to support the government, while enjoying increased ownership of the wealth of this country.

In my view, integenerational wealth is another instance of monopoly power, with all the attendant damage to innovation.

VoxPop -- on High Salaries
quoth VoxPop: "Why does everyone concentrate on baseball salaries and tickets? It was just an example."

It's the example Sowell used, and you were going with it also. So unless you've got some other example you prefer, I guess I'll stick with it as well.

VoxPop: "Steinbrenner and others do not get the major share of their income from tickets! They get it from TV and other sources who get it FROM THE PRODUCTS THEY SELL TO ALL, INCLUDING THOSE WITHOUT DISCRETIONARY SPENDING."

How does that change anything?

No matter where they get the money FROM, they're getting it from somebody who WILLINGLY PARTS WITH IT IN EXCHANGE FOR SOMETHING THEY WANT MORE.

VoxPop: "Was hoping someone would figure out a free market way to keep the ridiculous salaries from inflating prices."

Yes, there is a free market way. Convince all the people to watch Twiddly Winks games instead of Baseball games. (Good luck!)

UNFORTUNATELY, if such a campaign were successful, it wouldn't be long before you'd be kvetching about the high salaries earned by expert Twiddly-Wink athletes, and the inflated prices for Twiddly-Wink tickets.

HOW DO YOU TELL IF A PRICE IS TOO HIGH?

Simple -- people stop buying. As long as the stadiums are nearly full, the ticket prices are right.

HOWEVER -- you still haven't stated any good reason WHY someone's compensation should be capped, free-market-ly or otherwise?

What do you care if the guy you buy baseball tickets from is a Zillionaire, so long as he provides you with the sports entertainment you're looking for? He's providing you a service, and he's charging you a fee. If the service is worth more to you than the fee, then you give him the fee, you get the service, and EVERYBODY IS HAPPY.

If you can't afford the fee, well, that's not Steinbrenner's problem. It's not up to him to check your bank statements to ascertain whether or not you're going hungry in order to see a baseball game! That's YOUR jurisdiction, not his!

Ed1 -- Good Points, But --
-- Social(ist In)Security and government-protected monopolies is not the Topic of the Day.

Today's topic is how liberals like to kvetch about CEO's making zillions of dollars.

Certainly the baseball game analogy can only be taken so far, given that, yes, it's not only a government-protected frachise, but the million-dollar salaried players are unionized.

Nevertheless, it still remains true that the players wouldn't make million-dollar salaries if they weren't providing a service to people who are willing to cough up whatever the ticket price is for a couple hours' sports entertainment. From that perspective, at least, the example serves to illustrate the Topic of the Day.

Now, I don't recall Sowell covering baseball as a "protected monopoly" specifically -- but if memory serves, John Stossell has done a piece on taxpayer-funded stadiums. I'm sure others have as well (Larry Elder? I'm sure he's talked about it on his talk-show).

Why don't you check the archives? Or, I think maybe a Google-search will turn up some hits.

We're not ignoring the issue, we're just not talking about *THAT* issue *THIS* time.

What liberals really don't like
It's time for a liberal to make a comment about the salary issue. One of the things most liberals don't like about the gulf between CEO salaries and those of the rest of us is that the high salaries can buy those who get them substantially better things in this life.

The point, in other words, is the differential access people with large incomes have or can have, when compared with those who lack such incomes.

Should the possession of a high income be able to purchase a significantly better quality of health care for those who possess it, compared with those who do not?

Should high income translate into significantly better educations for those with high incomes over those who do not have them?

Lots more could be added to such examples, but I think these are reasonably clear.

If you're a liberal, you see a serious problem here. If you're a conservative, you see no problem at all.

This difference in opinion explains why conservatives seek to unravel any government policy that might offset the advantages that wealth can bring. I'm not criticizing them for this opposition, simply explaining why they take this position in the first place.

Finally, if value is entirely subjective, there is no tenable position from which the workings of the market can be criticized, which is, of course, the aim of the economists who invented the notion of subjective value, and the conservatives who usually parrot them in supposing that this is a self-evident truth and not an ideological claim.



Worth
I pretty much agree with Thomas and with whoever said worth is based on marketability. I recall a story about a lady who ran a hat shop, that's millinery for the sophisticated. She went to New York or some place and bought hats. When the new hats arrived at her store she had the young lady who worked for her put them on stands in the storeroom. She then, without looking at the invoice, thought of the person who would buy each hat and how much she would pay for it. She probably sold some expensive hats for less than they were worth, but she made a handsome living by realizing worth to individual customers with means to pay. Jeter is just a desirable hat for which George is willing to pay heaps. Does it get any simpler than that?

Monopoly is a bias for the enfranchised
"Simple -- people stop buying. As long as the stadiums are nearly full, the ticket prices are right."

I think this idea is flawed. How much is the drug of eternal life worth? It is worth just about everything extra you have, and the corporation owning it should get as much as they can in the capitalist society. Now add another non-colluding company with the eternal life drug, and now how much will they get?

Like in evolution, the perfect predator need not adapt. That's why sharks haven't changed much in so many years. Same thing with the perfect monopoly, they don't need to change because they control the market, so their products and services stagnate, while the monopolist extracts maximum capital for their services/goods.

Monopolies are anti-progress.

Government control
I lived in a country where government controlled everything in the economy. If you wanted to raise the price of meat you needed approval. There were government regulations regarding how mcuh people were paid per hour. The government identified wage had to be paid. No more no less. One specific example was that one could only buy replacement mufflers that were manufactured in that country. Capitalism created the wealth that we have in this country. We do not need government screwing that up.

Ed1 -- Hyperbole
quoting me: "Simple -- people stop buying. As long as the stadiums are nearly full, the ticket prices are right."

quoth ed1: "I think this idea is flawed. How much is the drug of eternal life worth?"

Ok --

I've got a rope tied to your -- eh -- "unmentionables." The other end is tied to a 2 ton rock that's currently heading downstream to the waterfalls, and when it drops over the falls it will probably drag you along with it -- painfully, I might add.

I'll sell you a knife to cut the rope -- how much is it worth to you?



Ok, putting aside hyperbolic examples for a moment, there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the logic. If people are willing to pay a particular price for a particular item, in a market where they have lots and lots of choices, then the price is "right".

If too many people buy it, the price may be too low. If not enough people buy it, the price may be too high. That's just how it works.

Gestell - Difference twixt Rich and Poor
quoth Gestell: "This difference in opinion explains why conservatives seek to unravel any government policy that might offset the advantages that wealth can bring."

It's more than a mere difference of opinion about whether or not a wealthy person can enjoy the benefits of being wealthy.

Naturally, when you have more $$, you have more choices, nicer things, better health, etc. etc. etc. Why else does anybody even bother to create wealth, if not to get the rewards of wealth?

Which is why central control, socialism, income caps, redistributive taxation, etc., don't work. If you make it such that the rich and the poor have equal access to everything, then there's no motivation to become rich.

If nobody becomes rich, then everybody is poor.

If you take away the benefits of a capitalist society, you turn South Korea into North Korea.

I believe my comments are relevent
UncaAlby,

I object to a few points in Dr. Sowell's essay. Dr. Sowell seems to be against redistribution of wealth and government control because it stifle's innovation. In general I agree, but I point out that monopoly is an example where government intervention is good.

I did not develop, but I believe strongly that completely protecting intergenerational capital transfers is a bad idea, much like hereditary rule. The conservatives have looked to burdening the middle class rather than tax capital. The implication Dr. Sowell makes that the rich are unfairly taxed is laughable: it is the middle class that is unfairly taxed, being attacked on by conservatives trying to devalue the cost of labor and stop taxing of capital on one end, and crazy statists trying to enslave them on the other.

Missing the sharp point
"I'll sell you a knife to cut the rope -- how much is it worth to you?"

It is worth a lot, a ton. In fact, the sum value of all the things I buy is worth much more than I pay for them, if I had no alternative.

That's the point, if there are a hundred people (or even just a few) willing to sell the knife, well, one knife seller might offer to cut the roap (maybe the roap is causing too much pain as it is). Another might offer a sharper blade. Another might offer a lower price. Competition develops the products for a market, and the market develops and grows in response. That's why without competition capitalism stagnates.

Yet, the goal of every corporation is to attain monopoly (drive out the competitors).

That's why Dr. Sowell and other conservatives should recognize the beneficial role government provides as monopoly buster.

Ed1 -- Capital Gains Tax
Relevant?

Well -- Ok --

How about -- wrong?

(No, just kidding!)

Look, there's nothing wrong with transfering your wealth to anybody you choose, is there? If you want to dump your money to your local church, to an organized charity, or your own kids, why shouldn't you?

I mean, WHO'S MONEY IS IT? Right? It's YOUR money. You do with it what you want.

And believe it or not, the people who get hit the worst with death taxes and what-not ARE the middle-class. The rich hire fancy lawyers to work out crazy tax loopholes, move their money overseas, etc., to avoid paying taxes.

Even so, the rich DO pay a hugely disproportiate fraction of the entire tax burden. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's like the top 10% in income earners pay more than half the entire federal tax burden (somebody look this up for me, I'm tired.)

The bottom half of wage earners pay hardly anything at all.

So it's no wonder the rich look for ways to save.

But more often, your old Aunt Petunia will kick the bucket, and maybe leave you with a few grand, that she'd spent her entire life saving up. Whoops! Here comes the tax man! So sorry! Hey wait a minute, we're not rich! Well, too bad.

That's the way it works. They sell you on the re-distributionist ideas that only the "rich" will get hit -- indeed, when the 16th amendment passed, they put something like a 3% tax on what would be -- what? -- a million dollars in today's money? -- I don't remember the stats.

Folks were proud to pay their income taxes -- it proved they were truly RICH.

But that opened the flood gates, and now nearly anyone gets stuck with a tax bill, with an ever-growing need to get even more. Americans now pay an average of over 40% of their income to one tax or another.

The joke I used to tell, not too far from the truth, was they only want to tax the "rich" -- and "rich" is defined as "has a job."

Bzzt, wrong
The parrot talks:

"Even so, the rich DO pay a hugely disproportiate fraction of the entire tax burden. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's like the top 10% in income earners pay more than half the entire federal tax burden (somebody look this up for me, I'm tired.)"

I don't care so much about income earners. How about using wealth as the measure? Now, let's see how much the top 1% pays as a percentage of wealth. Please don't forget that regressive income tax, social security (given that it almost equals income tax as a revenue source, I would say you are significantly off). It's obviously skewed massively.

Apples and Oranges
I greatly admire Dr. Sowell, but using athletes or entertainers to justify the compensation of merit cannot be generalized to the wider economy. But even in their world, team salary caps and other forces can influence the market. If a pure market existed, then the objective value of labor/goods would be what we observe. However, Dr. Sowell does not mention the effects of coercive forces that have already been put into place by government.
I recall that just a few years back the AMA went to congress to lobby for funding to compensate medical schools for the students that they did not teach. They wanted something along the same lines as farm subsidies to not grow certain crops. The absurd logic was that an oversupply of doctors would drive UP the cost of medical care. Sorry, I listened to this on my car radio, so I can't cite a reference nor do I know if they were successful. Another AMA example is the way that they can influence government to restrict the scope of services offered by potential competitors such as nurse practitioner or osteopath. Their claim is that they act only in the interest of public safety and health. I'm sure that there are well-intentioned folks who try to uphold the ideal. However, the AMA is also a type of union that wields regulatory power through coercive government bureaucracy to maximize returns for its membership. That's one reason why Cuba has a lower patient:doctor ratio than the USA.
I don't want to pick on doctors as a profession because the problem goes way beyond their association. We all unwittingly allowed the system to be created over the years. The main issue is that people with wealth and/or power can influence government bureaucrats to craft regulations, award contracts, create subsidies, etc. that skew the marketplace to favor them or their friends. A pure marketplace would be the most effective way to make things "fair," but we can't put the genie back in the bottle.

alopekos teumesios -- Just an Example
I've mentioned this before -- yes, everybody is aware that the government has its tentacles wrapped around nearly every aspect of modern day life -- nevertheless, it's still true that in the US, we are relatively free-er than most other economies on the planet.

But today, the topic is not about how the government distorts the market to everyone's detriment. Today the topic is, don't kvetch because somebody has a drastically larger income than you!

That sort of kvetching is dangerous because the politicians, in trying to woo your vote, might be tempted to ""DO SOMETHING"" about it, and odds are 99,900 to 1 that what they "do" will only make matters worse.

ed1 -- Uh oh --
"Bzzt, wrong -- the parrot talks"

??? ??? ???

Ed, you're not going to play those kinds of games are you? Coz I'm not going to discuss this if we can't keep things at an adult level.

I'll take my ball and go home! (Wait a sec, I *am* home -- damm!)

I know it gets frustrating when people don't see the "genius" of your "rational" arguments -- coz I know *I* get frustrated when people don't see the Genius of *my* Rational arguments! But that's no reason to start getting adolescent about it.

That's why I sometimes wait a day or so before spouting off my response. It gives me time to cool off, and time to think of a reasoned reply.

I been around blogs and forums and newsgroups for a long time. I've slogged through the flame wars, even started a few myself. I've seen it all, including the "Bzzt" gag, which was really cute the first 2 or 3 hundred times; but now it's just tired and worn.



AT ANY RATE --

Regarding taxing the "rich" based on their "wealth" -- how exactly do you define "wealth"?

Do you want to not only tax a rich person's income, but charge an additional tax based on the money they made 10 years ago?

There's already a property tax on real estate -- and it's really convoluted in some states -- do you want to come *INSIDE* their homes and have experts assess the value of the artwork they bought to see if today's taxable value is higher than last year? Then increase their taxes based on this new value?

Do you want to charge a sales tax when they buy a yacht, then come back in a year and charge a "wealth tax" because they still own it?

Just what kind of penalties does a freedom-loving citizen wish to impose on those who, for whatever reason, happen to be better off than others?

Then -- assuming you concoct such a plan -- how are you going to impose it without chasing the people out of the country? I mean, look -- I think the Cayman Islands already have quite enough money hidden away now (literally and figuratively). Don't make them have to buy *more* vaults!

Speaking of taxing a yacht -- do you remember when they charged a "luxury tax" on yachts? They practically killed off the US yacht industry! People simply *stopped* buying new yachts in the US. They either bought them overseas, or bought them used.

I think some 10,000 people lost their jobs as a result.

So what kind of a "wealth tax" did you think you could impose that smart people won't find a way to avoid? And drag at least some segment of the ecomony, if not all of it, into the tank in the process?


funny stuff
I love listening to liberals lecture normal people on economics. The first mistake they always make is they will say, "First, let's assume fairness." This is hilarious because what they mean is fairness according to them. This very first step leads to misery. Life is not fair and has never been fair. People do not have the same ambitions, morals, discipline, desires, goals, work ethic, brains, motivation, etc etc. yet Liberals leave this out of the equation.

Also, if we even-out everyone's salaries, qualities of fabulous, luxurious, and fun things will disappear unless, of course, out of the goodness of one craftsmen's heart he/she makes the product regardless of comepensation. This includes healthcare, sanitation, automobiles, food products etc etc. If something has the same value to everyone then the quality will go down and new products will not be introduced. It's like telling someone, "We're not giving you anything extra for being good at what you do. You get the same as Larry the Slob. Now, do your best!"

Everyone will still want said object. Then what happens? Bartering and price setting and so it goes.

Gestell says she's a liberal which is fine. I find it stunning that she so believes in the importance of making the right choices for the betterment of all and still claims to be a liberal. I'm not trying to insult her but isn't it the Liberals who stress and fight for the right of all Americans to make the worst choices for their lives and then cry about how the rest of us should pay for it? I mean, Gestell's choice making must go like this, "Should we spend x dollars on unwed mothers and y dollars on funding abortions? Or maybe we should increase funding for drug users and alcoholics? And AIDS funding, let's not forget that?" And it's always someone else's money! Why don't the environmentalists, for example, pool their money and buy the friggin' land already. Then they can set the rules for use.

I would love it if the activists would use their energy to help people become smarter in their lives. Learn economics and forethought when it comes to choices. Longterm thinking and reading comprehension is very useful as well. And history.

Well, I've done all I can to help. Happy New Year and be safe out there on the road. It's amateur night.

The theory
Flames aside, thanks.

The issue as I see it with taxes is that Social Security is a massive tax. It accounts for almost as much as does income tax. Other than income tax, you have corporate taxes and capital gains taxes.

So after some googling, the wealthiest 5% own over 50% of all wealth in the nation. Yet, they contribute far less than that. My view is that Social Security is just like any other tax, except that it is more regressive than a flat tax. It's 1 trillion surplus has been used to fund all kinds of programs, but the wealthy, even the high income earners do not put in their fair share.

I personally doubt I will receive even what I added to social security, given I save money and social security will eventually be means tested, so even the portion of social security that goes to payments of the aged I view as income taxation.

With SS nearing the same levels as other income taxes, and that the vast majority of SS funds come from the middle class, well, you get the picture. Even if the top 10% of earners pay 40% of income taxes (while owning greater than half the US wealth), given social security is roughly on par with income, the actual amount the highest earners pay is not on par with their income let alone wealth.

Conservative republicans have done nothing to stop the encroachment of high taxation on the middle class by either the ever increasing income cutoff point for Social Security, nor on the ever decending AMT intrusion.

Meanwhile they have been quite solid in removing capital based taxes, such as "the death tax." To me this speaks to a desire to protect inter-generational wealth transfers. It also points to a decrease in the individuals ability to accumulate wealth (for middle class people) by the exhorbitant regressive income taxes. These high taxes also have the effect of making my labor more expensive, and so pushing my jobs overseas.

So I would prefer to move towards capital taxation, perhaps on inheritance. I see nothing wrong with taxing inheritance at 75% level above some threshold of say a few thousand dollars. That then would be used to fund the entire federal government.

Kvetching
UncaAlby,
Do you even hear yourself?
Are you suggesting that because of past government meddling in the market, some groups have the right to continue to fleece other groups and nothing should be done about it because otherwise the government would make things worse? Is that a conservative value? You seek to conserve the screwups. It sounds alot like statism to me. I suppose that you're a supporter of social security in its present form, affirmative action and welfare, because after all, the fix is in for those groups and heck the government may come up with something worse. My previous point is certainly on the topic. I don't advocate income redistribution, but I don't advocate using the coercive force of government to pick one group's (or society in general) pocket to benefit another group either.

ed1
The most expensive monopolies in this country are the public school system, the post office, the Social Security system and our Military. Its pretty much agreed the govt must handle the military. Education, retirement, and communications are much better handled by individual choice. The conditions under which these govt monopolies were developed no longer apply. Given choice, the vast majority of the people would be much better served.

I don't get your thinking
UncaAlby sez:
" Look, there's nothing wrong with transfering your wealth to anybody you choose, is there? If you want to dump your money to your local church, to an organized charity, or your own kids, why shouldn't you?

I mean, WHO'S MONEY IS IT? Right? It's YOUR money. You do with it what you want. "

In almost any transaction money is taxed, except for a few "special" ones. Why do you think those ought to be protected?

A with the system is that those who "cycle" money more quickly are taxed at vastly higher than those who do not. For instance, if I live paycheck to paycheck, the government gets their 40% right away. On the other hand, if my net wealth increases mostly by unrealized capital gains, then the taxation on my increase in wealth is much less. If I get to convince the government not to tax inheritance, then I get to transfer all the accumulated wealth to my kids.

Now, I believe progress is really important, so I suspect a case can be made that unrealized capital gains should not be punitively taxed, but when it is transfered to children it must be. Otherwise, as I mentioned, eventually you get to hereditary rule.

alopekos teumesios -- Huh?
No offense, but I'm sure glad I can cut-n-paste your moniker and not have to try to spell it or pronounce it! WOW!

OT, might there be an English translation?

ANYHOW --

quoth alopekos teumesios: "Do you even hear yourself?"

Well, yah, when I happen to speak out loud, but generally when I type, I don't bother. I do read my words often -- I'm generally quite proud of the words I put down for public shredding.

"Are you suggesting that because of past government meddling in the market, some groups have the right to continue to fleece other groups and nothing should be done about it because otherwise the government would make things worse?"

Past and present meddling, and if I understand your question, then yes, nearly ANY thing the government does can only make things worse.

But first off, who is fleecing who? Do you want to stick with the Baseball example or do you have something else you'd prefer to take apart?

I mean, nobody is being forced to buy baseball tickets. So if Steinbrenner is fleecing anybody, they're walking in to the sheering station quite willingly.

"Is that a conservative value? You seek to conserve the screwups."

I don't like using the words "liberal" and "conservative". There's too much confusion with those terms. For one thing, I'd consider myself a "Classical Liberal", in the sense of the word before it was hijacked by Socialists. Maybe one day when they all decide to be "Progressives", we can get the word "liberal" back, but I'm not holding my breath.

You're absolutely right in that the "classic" definition of "conservatism" is to "conserve the status-quo", even if that happens to be a screw-up -- or if change is in order, then change it slowly and carefully. But, like the label "liberal" no longer means what it used to mean, "conservative" no longer means what it used to mean either.

I wish I could call myself a "conservative", in the sense that change needs to be slow and carefully considered, except there are too many people wearing that label who believe in Big Government just as much as today's liberals do. They just have different purposes, different uses, for Government Abuse.

"I suppose that you're a supporter of social security in its present form, affirmative action and welfare, because after all, the fix is in for those groups and heck the government may come up with something worse."

Now, don't put words into my mouth. I've got too many in there as it is!

"My previous point is certainly on the topic. I don't advocate income redistribution, but I don't advocate using the coercive force of government to pick one group's (or society in general) pocket to benefit another group either."

Then I must have misunderstood your previous point entirely.

I thought we were talking about people kvetching about some people being "rich" and so therefore the government is supposed to ""DO SOMETHING"" so they aren't so rich no more. Some of the ideas presented including compensation caps, redistribution of course, formulas for determining the "proper" ratio between a CEO's salary and the janitor's, etc.

And yes, all of these ideas will create their own problems plus make the initial "problems" even worse.

The only thing the government can possibly "DO" would be to STOP DOING stuff. But that's not very likely, is it?

Ed1 - Inheritance
No, you don't get hereditary rule.

Check the word in the very phrase -- hereditary RULE -- Now what's the first thing you need if you're going to have somebody RULING anything?

You need GOVERNMENT.

People who didn't earn their money will waste it. It's rare to have a fourth generation rich person, just on inheritance.

Here's what happens all the time; Granddad makes a killing, Dad is able to hold on to it, Grandson blows it all.

Whatever it is that it takes to accumulate wealth, is apparently not an inherited attribute.

Just like EACH and EVERY lottery winner is in WORSE financial shape than before buying the ticket after FIVE short years. They not only haven't figured out how EARN big bucks, they can't figure out how to HOLD ON to big bucks.

Walter Williams has some statistics I'll need to look up. A very large percentage of the people at the top of the wealth bracket were not there 20 years ago -- and a very large percentage of the ones at the bottom were once at the top -- and yet another percentage have been at both ends more than once in their lives. Freedom means people are free to make mistakes, and those mistakes can easily drop them out of being categorized as "rich".

A very small percentage of the people currently considered "rich" inherited their wealth.

So your fears of "Hereditary Rule" are quite groundless.

ed1 -- Socialist Insecurity
quoth ed1: "So after some googling, the wealthiest 5% own over 50% of all wealth in the nation. Yet, they contribute far less than that."

The rewards for serving society do not happen to "linear", which is probably a good thing. Otherwise, there's a whole lot of people who contribute NOTHING who'd have to be killed or put into slavery until they started contributing something.

"My view is that Social Security is just like any other tax, except that it is more regressive than a flat tax. It's 1 trillion surplus has been used to fund all kinds of programs, but the wealthy, even the high income earners do not put in their fair share."

Well that's certainly true -- but that doesn't have anything to do with the "Class Envy" that the socialists like to use as an excuse to hike up taxes.

Social Security needs to be privatized, period. I don't see that happening though. It appears to be politically impossible.

In the meantime, the advice I give everybody is to get a 401K or an IRA and put in 10% of your gross income. If your employer matches it, so much the better, but YOUR contribution needs to be 10%.

"Conservative republicans have done nothing to stop the encroachment of high taxation on the middle class by either the ever increasing income cutoff point for Social Security, nor on the ever decending AMT intrusion."

That statement is correct, with one exception --

Strike the word "Conservative." I.e., you should say "Republicans", not "conservative republicans".

I have to keep correcting people on that. Just because you have an "R" next to your name doesn't mean you're a conservative. We've even had the director of Townhall.com publish an article that essentially states we should give up all our Principles until we've acquired Power. Then, supposedly, after we have the Power, we can return to our Conservative Principles.

My view is, if you have to give up your principles, what's the point? So now I have to wonder whether or not Townhall.com is still run by conservatives anymore.

Oh, one more correction -- republicans *have* done something -- they did something to make it *worse*. They increased spending to levels previously unheard of. We *are* going to have to pay for all that some day.

But you know, today's topic (and I'm sorry, I have to keep bringing people back to TODAY'S TOPIC) isn't all the stupid things Republicans have done, or Democrats (who are a little worse), or all of the things government CURRENTLY does that's STUPID -- or at least counter-productive -- or at least detrimental to the overall wealth and happiness of society (I wonder if it's really counter-productive -- I mean, if they really *intend* to accumulate as much Power as possible, at everyone else's expense, then it's probably *quite* productive!)

The TOPIC today, to put it succinctly, is CLASS ENVY.

Social Security, ed's on to something
ed1 wrote that social security is a regressive tax. Then he was lambasted for not staying on the subject.
If the topic is class envy, social security is a great way to get liberal haunches up. Try it sometime, ask a liberal why we can't fix social security by offering a "buy-out" like the auto-makers are doing to stay above water. I'd take a buyout from social securities empty promises to get a 7.65% raise. I'd throw it in an IRA. My employer 7.65% could still go to pay those on social security until those who are too old to take a buyout are all paid up. The system would soon collapse because if buy-outs existed, who would want in?
Ask a liberal that, their response is quite enlightening about how they feel about class envy.
Slabo? Ed-1? Anybody??

oops.
Sorry. I meant Social Security's empty promises. Typos... nawt thu bessed wai tu sownd smart...

I'm all for private accounts
Libertybob:

I guess I don't feel too liberal. Actually, I'm all for free enterprise (sans monopolies). Let's have private accounts. Let's phase out the ponzi scheme social security.

uncaAlby

Yes, Dr. Sowell's blog is all about class envy. What I'm trying to point out is that Dr. Sowell is giving us a new spin on why we out to be content with the wealth the wealthy have accumulated. I'm saying the system is being manipulated by republicans (conservative or not) to build a two tier society, and wipe out the middle class. Dr. Sowell is trying to make the case we ought to not call for redistribution of wealth (typically accomplished with taxation). So the implication is that taxation is fair now, and any questioning of that is envious. I'm trying to make the case that isn't so: the current tax system unfairly favors the wealthy in a number of ways.

Good stuff, you wicked
mean spirited greedy poor-bashing homeless-hating race-baiting (dare i use the ultimate epithet) conservatives. Even if you are preaching to the choir, its fun to know i'm not the only person who believes these things.

gently,99,Maxwell Smart & the rest
You make me want to spew! You heartles meanies!
When Dr. Sowell says,"Why bother making an exchange if what you get is no more valuable to you than what you give?",can't you see what a mindless profiteer he is? My God! You people act as though an unabashed and active interest in ones self is something to be proud of! To think that Ron Kovic might be exposed to this swill, before the next time he rolls what's left of his body under a frieght train,just breaks my bleedin' heart!

ed1
We may well be heading for a 2 tier society, but its not the people at the top of the money tree that are doing it, its the people at the bottom. Check into our schools. Half of all children who start Washington DC schools drop out. Half of the rest are functionally illiterate. We have over 300,000 functionally illiterate adults in Florida(Laubach Literary Society figures). These people can not be easily absorbed into today's world economy. They become the bottom tier. Most of these people get into this situation because they reject education in early teen years right after peer group pressure takes over and before anything like reality makes it through their skulls. Ask any 7th grade teacher.

Unbridgeable Chasm
UncaAlby,
We're probably on the same page philosophically since you cite statistics from one of my favorite economics professor, Dr. Williams. Unfortunately, we are in the throes of miscommunication.
I do "hear" the minds' little voice when I read or type, so that is why I said, "do you hear yourself." Language is based upon verbal communication. Even writing coaches talk about how written paragraphs "sound." It would seem dumb to state, "do you see yourself." Please don't be a smarta**. If you don't understand my point, simply ask me to clarify or read my post more thoroughly.
I didn't think that Dr. Sowell's article was about baseball ticket prices, lotteries or inheritance. I thought it was about market forces determining the value of a good or service. Maybe you're looking for the ESPN blog.
My original point was that government has already skewed the market to favor certain groups. I used the AMA as just one example of a group that limits competition and supports prices that benefit its membership through government regulation. One example that I used was a news item that I heard on the radio. It said that the AMA was seeking the aid of congress to limit the supply of medical professionals. If a regulation such as that costs me more money, then I have a right to petition my representatives to address the issue.
You are correct that government screws up just about anything that it lays its hand upon. I seek less government coercion and interference in our lives and in the market. I am a small "l" libertarian with some conservative leanings, so I agree with many of your sentiments. I just ask that you read my post a little more closely, if you're going to spend time responding to it in such a frivolous manner.
By the way, my nickname is my own business. Do you seriously think that "UncaAlby" has an air of erudition?

Not one cause
gently99:

I agree the loss of personal responsibility is a huge crime committed by the left. But that doesn't give the right the green light to further attack the middle class. But that's what is happening.

The middle class is attacked by the statists on the one hand, and the greedy (when I say greedy, I mean the take advantage slimy kind).

I'm Happy - - -
- - - even realizing that most of you probably aren't going to read this, since Sowell's Part V is out - - -

HAPPY NEW YEAR anyway - - -

I'm happy to see there are more kindred spirits out there than I thought there were.

UncaAlby
I read it, at leazt. And a happy and profitable New Year to you, sir.

Greed is rarely pretty, but it is the engine that drives effort. It is a philosophical line between between quite normal, acceptable appetite, and conspicuous and gross consumption. Everyone gets hungry, but glutony is one of the deadly 7. What enters in here is the fact that one's own personal sore toe is more important than the starvation of an unknown child far away. To a person with lots of money, this translates into a diamond necklace for their chihuahua, while animals in 3rd world countries lead grim lives of starvation and disease. Once again, trying to scribe the line gets screwed up when govt sets it. The left sees govt as a cure. The right is much more aware of govt nincompoopery and wants caution and restraint and reinforcement of other powers.

Reply to UncaAlby
Here's a test for free market orthodoxy: Is there any conceivable valued thing of any kind that you do NOT believe should be allocated by the mechanism of the market?

Conservatives should be (many used to be) the first to recognize that the free market is a major corrosive force that dissolves social and moral traditions. Many libertarians think this is really cool, but conservatives should be a little more careful.

Now a philosophical question for you: On what basis is the moral supremacy of the market to be justified?

Hitler was robbed!
The dominant forum position to date apears to be:

"Adolph Hitler worked very hard to monopolise the rapid advances in industrialisation technology to create a prosperous Third REICH. All the whingeing, lazy, covetous bums who were envious of his industriousness ganged up on him and asserted mob rule under WWII and the Marshall Plan. And then the mob had a field day at Nuremberg. And not until the last 6 years when the Information revolution has allowed similar Hitlerian minds to once again monopolise rapidly advancing technologies before others have a chance to catch up on them has there been the opportunity to create another Third REICH. Our CEOs are the vangurard of this REICH to come and should be respected above ALL men and all things."

Does the ridiculousness of the views from the children's club on this forum start to dawn NOW?

As if the mess in Iraq wouldn't have been a wake up call to what's really goin on in Wall Street today. And the views expressed here are that America should just send more troops to back this stupidity up with brute force.
But what they forget is that there aren't any more troops ... unless the people on this forum enlist. But we know they won't because they are yellowback geeks who hide behind machines while thumbing their nose at the very people (the mob) who have to go and fight for their freedom.

That's why Tom Sowell is a failure. That's why his economic model that labels an abhorrence of the capital divide as ENVY is just propaganda. Its not envy, it is OUTRAGE that anyone would seek to turn back the hands of time to NAZI ideals. WE KNOW ... OK!

And that's why we have DEMOCRACY, an institution that is the EMPLOYER of CEOs and CAPITALISM. An institution where assets are commoditised and trade on FAIR world markets where all world citizens are EQUAL participants.

Sowell's big mistake is tha DEMOCRACY is the ruling institution like Russel's 'catalogue of all catalogues' can NOT be commoditised. Not without the shedding of BLOOD, for it is through the SHEDDING of BLOOD. Far from being mob rule, democracy is an HIGHLY evolved dynamic social system that is an insurance against interminable war.

Without unfettered DEMOCRACY you will get war upon war until Democracy is restored. Such is the nature of human history and such is the nature of man.

So grow up kiddies, before I make the following suggestion: All CEOs and their followers who want to rule and finegle all the finite capital assets in the world on their laptops MUST be put in uniform and sent to Iraq and Afghanistan and be forced to fight for that right.

And until the trivial war against Islamic Radicals is shown to be winnable, that may be a very intersting 'Big Country-Big Muddy' possibility.

But wait, there's more: The greatest threat to the US economy and its very survival is not from the rest of the World. NO, if America falls it will be from self implosion.

For without proper RESPECT for DEMOCRACY the fiercest battlegrounds CEOs can and will foment are within the fabric of American society. The US Civil War was just a foretaste of what greed and DISRESPECT for DEMOCRACY can imbue.

Further, there is a mathematical Themodynamic basis for the above assertion. If Sowell was any kind of economist at all he would know exactly what I was referring to.

More on that to come.

What a JOKE
Zeich Heil Herr Shanetler!

DEMOCRACY = FREEDOM and is therefore IMPLICIT in the constitution.

Get that through your thick head.

And seeing I will have a lot more to say here and won't be running along, you sir are effete.

Grow up!

I reiterate that Hitler was robbed under your thinking and that makes you a laughing stock!

Before we look at the DYNAMICS of modern CAPITALISM, how it can best serve and strengthen DEMOCRACIES and why Sowell has got it so wrong, we must examine some mathematical models of the THERMODYNAMICS thereof. Stay tuned if you haven't retired to your Bunker.

The REAL issue
Sowell makes a lame presupposition that the Earth has infinite resources and that human populations will always carry a finite resource burden.

The definitions of CAPITALISM, DEMOCRACY etc only have meaning where you have finite aspirations within in infinite systems that have an inherent stability and sustainability. Otherwise they become meaningless.

Our global system is inherently headed towards CHAOS economics:

* Our global system is clearly finite.

* The aspirations of a select cadre of predatory CEOs of PUBLICALLY LISTED COMPANIES(PLC), who as evidenced by their remunerations are now the true governors of America and much of the world, are for Greenspanian 3%-5%GDP growth per year forever and ever, which is by definition, infinite aspiration.

* Social, resources and environmental sustainability and stability are withering at a pace faster than oil and gas are getting harder to find.

* There will be 10 billion people on this planet by 2050 with no possible Space escape hatch. The best NASA will do by then is put a couple of septigenarian astronauts on Mars to wander around looking for signs of water that used to be there before it all evaporated into the dry vacuum of space.

To wit, America's (and the global) thermodynamic trajectory under elite CEO rule is approaching a dynamic dislocation state known as CHAOS. Thus we need to understand CHAOS economics which includes the right to commit mass murder and genocide to maintain stability in economic systems. CEOs must know this is coming, but the rest of us? Maybe a few on this forum have the balls to relish what is coming (Shane) but I suggest that most of us are outraged at the prospect.

That is why CEO remunerations MUST be clipped back to levels that do not and can not threaten the integrity of our politicians, who for all their faults are elected by a majority of their peers, we the people. That way the mob can rule, aqs it should, in accordance with its humanitarian objectives and an OPTIMAL growth fiscal trammel that can give us all time to think about where the planet is headed and what accelerants can be added to NASA programs to provide a true escape hatch for mass populations before 2050.

The REALITY? To grow larger human population from here will require THERMODYNAMIC energy resources and densities that can only be harvested as close to the SUN as Mercury Orbit.
The alternative is to let PLC CEOs continue to have remunerations commensurate with planetary governance, get used to being mass murderers and hope like hell they don't get it into their tiny CEO heads that some Americans are also expendible.

But an understanding of today's troubles for America gets even better when you look at the maths ......



But Wait .. There's DENIAL
Remunerations of PLC CEOs won't be cut soon.

Seems like a lot MORE poison is still Lurking in the MUD:

* Financial policymakers gave an UPBEAT assessment on Sunday 7-Jan-07 for a world economy heading into its fifth straight year of above four per cent growth, although the uncertain path for oil prices still poses a risk.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Policymakers-upbeat-on-world-growth/2007/01/08/1168104897264.html

Who else would sposor a Cambridge debate where the winning argument is: "That this house believes that economic growth is the solution to climate change (as opposed to its dirct cause)."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/meet-the-g-whizzes-who-beat-the-rest-of-the-world/2007/01/05/1167777279275.html

So since CEOs own all the media and are telling us all what to think it seems like CEO remunerations are also GOING UUUUUP!

OOOPS, BUT:

* Shares are getting dearer but there's nothing to worry about - YET, writes Malcolm Maiden.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/01/01/1167500061582.html?from=top5

* Europe draws up Emergency plans to tackle energy shortages
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Europe-draws-up-plan-to-tackle-energy/2007/01/09/1168104973533.html

* Auditing of a cynical Gates Philanthropy foundation shows humanitarian ideals are not being met.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-gates-cash-that-keeps-people-healthy-but-makes-them-sick/2007/01/07/1168104868098.html

Maybe Gates sees the writing on the wall:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/microsoft-positions-for-robot-era/2007/01/04/1167777205654.html

*Women, who will never make it to the top CEO echelon are beginning to see the writing on the wall too:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/motherhood-statements-of-feminism-ring-hollow/2007/01/01/1167500060563.html

Perhaps Peter Singer has the answer to this conundrum where world CEO Policymakers only see and pay to have legislated what THEY want to see:

"The wealthy among us have no excuse for not leading much of the world out of misery, argues Peter Singer. And they don't have to dig very deep to do it."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rich-can-save-the-poor/2007/01/05/1167777279120.html

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