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Tuesday, October 17, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Can we talk?
by Thomas Sowell
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There are very few saints among people of any race, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation. None should be above criticism.

Increasingly, however, there are tighter and tighter restrictions on what you can say about more and more groups. San Francisco radio talk show host Pete Wilson discovered this recently when he criticized a city Supervisor and his female friend -- but not lover -- who had a baby together.

The man is gay and the woman is a lesbian, so they are not lovers in a committed relationship.

Raising a child is no piece of cake, even when the parents are married and committed to staying together. Raising a child where there is no stable, committed relationship may be cutting edge stuff but Pete Wilson's point was that a child is not an experiment.

The same could be said of heterosexuals like the woman who recently had a baby in her sixties. That's great for making a splash in the media but what is going to happen when the baby becomes a teenager and the mother's energy level has declined with age, if she is still around at all?

The real issue, however, is neither heterosexual or homosexual, and it extends even beyond the important question of the best interests of the child.

The larger question for American society is, as Joan Rivers has often said: "Can we talk?"

Political bigwigs in San Francisco say "No." They are demanding that Pete Wilson resign. In San Francisco, no one is supposed to criticize anything done by homosexuals.

Moreover, this attitude is not confined to San Francisco or to gays. On the other side of the country, Columbia University students stormed the stage when one of the Minuteman critics of our lax immigration laws was trying to speak.

At many other colleges and universities, he would not even have been allowed on campus in the first place. Many campuses have speech codes where it is called creating a "hostile environment" if you say things that make various racial, sexual, or other protected groups unhappy.

Young people educated at our most prestigious colleges and universities are learning the lesson that storm trooper tactics can silence those who are not in vogue on campus, and honest expressions of opinion about issues involving anything from affirmative action to women in the military can get you suspended if you refuse the humiliation and hypocrisy of being "re-educated."

Meanwhile, liberals in Congress have long been advocating a return to the so-called "fairness" doctrine requiring "balance" in broadcasting. Talk radio is overwhelmingly conservative simply because liberal talk radio has failed repeatedly to attract comparable-sized audiences.

The listeners have spoken but the politicians want to overrule them. Some call it "hush Rush" legislation.

"Fairness" here, as in so many other contexts, means nothing more and nothing less than the exercise of arbitrary power by third parties, since everyone has a different definition of what "fairness" means.

Free speech is not a luxury but a necessity if we are to hear the various sides of issues before we decide what to do.

It is not a question of Pete Wilson's rights or even of the rights of all the people who speak or write on public issues. Such people are not even ten percent of the population and probably not even one percent.

Their individual rights matter. But among the pressing problems of our time, their interests alone rank far down the list.

Free speech rights exist for the whole society, not for writers and speakers. When you say that we can hear only what a growing number of censors want us to hear, you are condemning us to grope in the dark when making all sorts of decisions -- about ourselves, our families and the future of our society.

Whether Pete Wilson's opinion was right or wrong is a very small issue compared to blinding us all for the sake of political correctness. Can we talk? Apparently, for some people, the answer is "No."

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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DavidM -- HUH?
DavidM writes: Saturday, October, 21, 2006 9:46 PM

mike
""WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?'"

>>>"I didn't go back and show me where I did.
Red herring."

------------------

Gotcha again, Slick. We've done this FOUR times now. (sigh)

See mine Wednesday, October, 18, 2006 2:45 AM
And yours: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 8:36 PM



>>>This means the ten commandments does NOT violate it, nor any other religious symbol.

The very first commandment does, explicitly.

Read it some day.

The founders never intended the State to sanction "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" -- a sense of bigotry which does not exist in any other religion.

Like I said, I'll take Jefferson's word over yours.

----------------------

>>>"If I put a plaque that says Go Braves in my cube, does that make it my company policy?"

Another goofy question ... if your COMPANY hangs it (especially after voting to do so), then it OBVIOUSLY is company policy.

Here's another sign.


mike
""WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?'"

I didn't go back and show me where I did.
Red herring.

If I put a plaque that says Go Braves in my cube, does that make it my company policy?

Here here!

It amazes me when the middle to the left talk show hosts complain they can't swear on the radio, and how that is a terrible violation of free speech.

Meanwhile, I suspect someone could make the case that it is illegal to listen to their views in a corporate environment due to minorities who may be offended (who is not a minority these days?). I am still waiting for someone to sue a company for providing the San Jose Mercury News in the lunch room.

By the way, I love it when people like Dr. Sowell lay things out so clearly like this.

DavidM
DavidM writes: Friday, October, 20, 2006 9:39 AM

I keep asking:
"WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?'

David AGAIN changes the subject!
>>"Tell me why you believe(incorrectly) a religious symbol in a courtroom makes the above statement LAW in any way shape form or fashion.

Ummm, I never said it did, Slick. Nor do I believe it should.

Answer the question: "WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?'

>>>"And if you think Jefferson was going into a church to tell them that no religious symbols would be shown be anywhere(what a way to drum up support!)

I never said that either, chump.

Can you defend your own statement -- or will you keep running away from it?

>>>"Mikes solution to religious abuse: ban religion!"

Never said that either. Nor would I want to.

Do you understand the question?

Which part confuses you?






MikeR is reasonable
I thought MikeR was being totally reasonable. His style fits in perfectly with what TS is on about. If only all leftys were like him. Geronimo is too harsh & in so doing has not yet learned TS's message. Save the harsh words for the very many other unreasonables on the left.

ps mike
You need to look up the definition of the following words before posting more ignorance:

Congress
law
establishment of religion
free exercise


Hmm
WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?

Tell me why you believe(incorrectly) a religious symbol in a courtroom makes the above statement LAW in any way shape form or fashion. IT DOESN'T.

You still confuse relgion(An organization of MEN) and beliefs. Sorry but you DON'T have the right to stifle me or anyone else from expressing their beliefs. (Yes this means an Islamic Judge could hang parts of the Koran in his courtroom. As long as he doesn't apply them as laws its legal)

And if you think Jefferson was going into a church to tell them that no religious symbols would be shown be anywhere(what a way to drum up support!) then I think our debate will end here.

Mikes solution to religious abuse: ban religion!

DavidM -- HUH?

>>""hihn is clueless
Yes I am sure that Jefferson who went to seminary intended to ban all religion from the public square."

I never said that. Here's what I DID say:

"You would be quite wrong -- which does NOT mean the founders intended to ban faith -- but to separate church and state, to preclude the type of abuses many had escaped from, to escape the abuses of church/state tyrannies of the prior centuries"

Why must you twist my words, when they are still in plain site above?

It was Jefferson, of course, who said that the First Amendment created a wall of separation between church and state. Sorry, Bub.

>>Genius mike."

Not really. I can read. And I don't lie.

>>>>"Its you who cannot read mike.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

>>>Wherein does that mention the ten commandments?"

(sigh) I never said it did, Sport. Read me again.

---------------------------

>>>This means the ten commandments does NOT violate it, nor any other religious symbol.

The very first commandment does, explicitly.

Read it some day.

The founders never intended the State to sanction "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" -- a sense of bigotry which does not exist in any other religion.

Like I said, I'll take Jefferson's word over yours.

-----------------------------

Did you read the first comnmandment yet? If so, why do you now lie about what we had said?


WHY do you claim the founders intended to sanction, "thou shalt have no other Gods before me."?


SILENCE IS GOLDEN
Q: How long can Mike R. go without
commenting about what someone ELSE just wrote??

Mike R is a "JERK"
Well Mike,
you proved to be a real ****!

(Read My Lips!)

Geronimo Must Have the Last Word
He never directly called me a nitwit,either. He just inferred it. I did "take the bait" and responded with yet another comment.This is a contest for some.(and not just me, apparently)

I avoided mentioning in your last response the fact that over half of all Oregonians are not from Oregon.Many transplants were attracted to Oregon in part,because it is known as a 'Liberal Mecca'. (even though I did)

One thing is for sure,Geronimo always wants to have the last word.

[Note: this post is a gratuitous attempt at sarcastic humor and should have no detrimental affect on the reader’s brain or opinions. It does not reflect the true opinions of MikeR or the computer used to produce it.]

Rebuttal to liberal_dialog
"NPR kicks Limbaugh's butt every day of the week with its audience size."

If NPR is so great why do they need taxpayer dollars to stay on the air - I think I already know the answer - just look at the resounding success of Air
America.

Mike R. Must Have the Last Word

I never directly called you a nitwit,either.You did "take the bait" and responded with yet another comment.This is a contest for some.

You avoided mentioning in your last response the fact that over half of all Oregonians are not from Oregon.Many transplants were attracted to Oregon in part,because it is known as a 'Liberal Mecca'.

One thing is for sure,Mike R.always wants to have the last word.

Insolence?
Geronimo:
You called me a nitwit and then claim I’m insolent. Yes, I disagree with people here, but I always list my reasons why and I never revert to name calling or derogatory remarks. This is not hypocritical or intolerant. I tolerate all views without demeaning the individual. While opinions rarely change, sometimes a common ground is discovered or more importantly a greater understanding is achieved. That is the essence of tolerance and it does not require compromise or change in direction; and sometimes positions, like hearts soften just a tiny bit. That too is human nature. The only people who dig in and justify are usually the small minded, the immature and the intolerant.

I admit freely that I used the wrong word. I used native when I meant resident. That should not change my meaning greatly.

As for "machine politics", I understand them very well. They arrived in this country with the first colonists and have flourished ever since. They are used by all parties in every election.
And yes,while the phrase accurately reflects the statements of many liberal democrats; many conservative Republicans could also be described thus.

Yes I am a moderate, just maybe the most moderate commenter on townhall. This is not self-deception or incongruent as I’ve never written an immoderate thing.


Mike R's Insolence
Mike,I have concluded you are not really the "moderate" you seem to picture yourself as,based on your comments written here today.Again,self-deception.Stubborn self-deception,in your case.

I also noticed you like to argue with comments you don't agree with.(geronimo,skunkwords supt.) This makes you appear a hypocrite (your alledged "tolerance" is not visible when you disagree).Remember,NOBODY ever changes their opinion just because you have a point.It runs against human nature.Instead,people dig-in and justify their statements and values.Positions only harden,not soften.

I think your next comments/criticisms will further the argument you started earlier.

You seem to misinterpret facts such as concerns "Oregon Natives".
Actually,only about half of all current residents of Oregon were born or raised in Oregon,according to census figures.Unlike other perceptions,alot of people around here are from the mid-west and East coasts,in addition to California.Urban Oregon is a liberal mecca.

Regarding your dispute that liberals are all cookie-cut consider this:Have you ever heard of "machine politics".I believe the phrase accurately reflects the statements of many liberal democrats.Evidently,they all subscribe to the same playbook published by the National Democratic Party.

When the debate turns to immigration,liberals usually respond "We were all immigrants once".Unfortunately,we were not all illegal immigrants at all.They have their schema,you have yours.

The hihn-beez controversy
"4) Many (perhaps) most of the colonist came here to escape religious persection by government's -- on top of the Inquisition."

..And promptly set up religiously persecutorial governments of their own. Puritan Massachusetts, Catholic Maryland, Congregationalist (?) Virginia, etc. The colonies were a dumping ground for religious dissenters. They then persecuted within their own territories to make sure they themselves were not persecuted. Ironic.


Geronimo
If you are inferring that I’m a nitwit, then you are behaving exactly as these much despised Oregon natives in that you only freely accept sameness and manifest animosity to those who are not like-minded. To do so would make you a hypocrite. The article is not just about freedom of speech alone, but more about the way in which we tolerate those with whom we disagree. You lamented a past lack of toleration. Perhaps this intolerance has polarized you to where you now lack tolerance.


Mike R
Yes Mike,even nitwits are free to talk.(I stand by your right to write too).

Geronimo
I said I don’t know anyone from Oregon personally, but I stand by my statement. You are saying that in essence, every liberal is a carbon copy. They can’t possibly all think and act the same way. People aren’t like that. The greater point is that Sowell laments that people can’t talk because liberals squelch any decent. Your statement makes you part of the problem because you’ve convinced yourself that all liberals are unapproachable. Perhaps you find me unbelievable because you are not used to moderation. It’s not a matter of denial. It’s just that I’ll need more than you word alone to believe that Oregon is filled with robot-like liberals who lack any variety of thought.

SkunkWorks Supt:
So you are saying that size matters. Seriously, when you wrote, “Have you noticed throughout this entire thread how the libs continue to scream their name-calling?
"Stupid Rush" and on and on with little or no factual response to anything previously noted.” I commented that many conservatives are doing the same; and they are. This also contributes to why “we can’t talk”. You statement rightfully condemns an action but blithely ignores it as well.

Mike
Measure the column inches!

Mike R's Incredulity
Mike apparently has no idea how liberal Oregon is.Has he lived in a cave? To begin with,Oregon never voted for Bush,not even once.It is a Democratic oriented state,politically.
Believe it!

If you say something that in any way is supportive of President Bush's policies,like the war against terrorism or our involvement in Iraq,then there is a 2/3 probability you will be condemned.It is incredible,incredible you don't buy it.Mike R.is in denial,like so many liberals.Mike R.is unbelievable!

SkunkWorks
Surely you’ve noted at least a few conservative name-callers. Even the slightest of review of comments will reveal many colorful euphemisms for both of the Clintons, democrats and other liberals.

LIBERAL NAME -CALLING
Have you noticed throughout this entire thread how the libs continue to scream their name-calling?
"Stupid Rush" and on and on with little or no factual response to anything previously noted.
Just like the rabble at Columbia U. who stormed the stage when members of the Minutemen attempted to speak.
Drown them out, call them names, scream at them, pound the table with your shoe or
. . . WAIT!
Wasn't that done by another leftie by the name of
Nikita Khruschchev?

good morning
Pistol writes:
Dr. Sowell writes that liberals try to stifle free speech. Attack or defend his position by discussing liberal attacks or lack of attacks on free speech. You say only that the right stifles free speech too. This may or may not justify or explain liberal actions, but it does not deal with the charge of Dr. Sowell's essay.

I say:
Good point. I applied that last week to the Foley articles, but many of the townhall columnists and most of the commenters refuted that. I guess the shoe was on the other foot then.

Ccpub:
Liberal bloggers control this sight? There is absolutely no evidence of that. Liberals get treated the same here as conservatives get treated on liberal sites.

Mr. Burns:
The “flag as offensive” button is a sigh that townhall has class.


Can we talk
Baseball

I totally agree with you that far too many conservatives shy away from a conservative position out of fear that they will be critisized by the politically correct as bigots, homophobes, racists, and small minded. Most people shy away from controversy and the liberal/socialist watchdogs of PC are quick to move in to savage any who violate the taboos that they maintain.

I am not one of those conservatives. I have been around long enough to have lived through a good chunk of the history of the last century and I am blessed with a long memory and the training to solve real world problems. Nothing happening today will affect me for very long but I would like to think that my six grandchildren will approach the future armed with some decent values and the truth.

hihn is clueless
Yes I am sure that Jefferson who went to seminary intended to ban all religion from the public square. Genius mike.

Its you who cannot read mike.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Wherein does that mention the ten commandments?

Here you go mike:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution#First_Amendment
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_of_religion

Next time your only source of info is kos don't start spouting nonsense without doing some research.

ccpub
ccpub writes: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 8:34 PM

>>>"It seems funny that when I try to post comments on a liberal website, I am rebuffed. But, being what we are(conservitives)liberal bloggers almost control our own websites. Now ai'nt that funny?"

You must be new here, where the bigotry can be almost suffocating ... even to others on the right, who are not social conservatives.

Many posters, in abject ignorance, actually claim that anyone who is outside their narrow little faction is a lefty.

I'm not denying that lefty sites are any different -- a certain level of fierce partisanship can reinforce the booboisie.



DavidM
DavidM writes: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 8:36 PM

>>>>"Church and state
The entire First amendment was written because of the Church of England."

No. But quite fanciful. You need to read Thomas Paine, and my quote from Jefferson, among others.


>>>>"Ever wonder why everyhing in Britian is Minster of This, The Ministry of That, Prime Minister, etc?"

You can't be serious.



>>>"I am certain none of this involves faith of any sort, but ORGANIZATIONS."

You would be quite wrong -- which does NOT mean the founders intended to ban faith -- but to separate church and state, to preclude the type of abuses many had escaped from, to escape the abuses of church/state tyrannies of the prior centuries.


>>>This means the ten commandments does NOT violate it, nor any other religious symbol.

The very first commandment does, explicitly.

Read it some day.

The founders never intended the State to sanction "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" -- a sense of bigotry which does not exist in any other religion.

Like I said, I'll take Jefferson's word over yours.




It's a real sign of weakness
when you won't let the other side have their say. If they are as wrong as you believe, give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. And if you can't take being offended now and then, you have other issues.

At least it has helped the conservative side be the side of big ideas (that actually work, like freedom, rule of law and capitalism), and stay sharp. The pols are another story, but they are literally surrounded by people who think otherwise, if they are GOP'ers, where the libs surround themselves with people who think like them.

And yes, Mr. Burns, there can be offensive posts that do not belong on a wide-open site like this, as interesting as they may be to a mature audience. The owners of the site have every right to keep it civil.

--MD

PC monitors on TownHall?
All this talk about free speech and politically correct speech has me noticing the little "Flag as Offensive" button beneath each post. Hmmmm

Church and state
The entire First amendment was written because of the Church of England. Unless you were a member you couldn't be a member of the government. It also meant that taxes were collected through the church.

Ever wonder why everyhing in Britian is Minster of This, The Ministry of That, Prime Minister, etc?

This all stems from trying to remove the other church-government they had kicked out of England: The Holy Roman Empire.

I am certain none of this involves faith of any sort, but ORGANIZATIONS. This means the ten commandments does NOT violate it, nor any other religious symbol. Only when the government is directly involved in the chuch and forces that organization upon the citizenry(or forbids it) is it violated.



liberal bloggers on conservative website
It seems funny that when I try to post comments on a liberal website, I am rebuffed. But, being what we are(conservitives)liberal bloggers almost control our own websites. Now ai'nt that funny?

fiddler
fiddler writes: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 8:32 AM

>>"The establishment clause (which does not include the words "separation, church or state", although the word "of" is in there, was intended allow the practice of denominational Christianity without control from the Federal government."

Jefferson said the First Amendment had created a wall of separation between church and state. I'll take his word over yours.


>>>"Read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Church ..."

Read it yourself, please.

>>>>"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Seems pretty clear to me.


Let's Keep it Simple
I am sorry to say I can't rember the very erudite, profound person that allows me to support Dr. Sowell's recomendation that learning continues for a life time if you will listen. The statment the person that I can't rember made to me was - I never learned anything when I was talking.

Let's pray that all of us will listen more so the world will be better place to live in.

beez
beez writes: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 7:13 AM

>>>"mike_hihn
I think you need to study up on the founders. You won't find the phrase "Separation of Church and State" or anything even close to that in the US Constitution or the Federalist Papers."

You're the one ignorant of history.

1) That was Thomas Jefferson's view of what the First Amendment means. I'll take his word over yours/

2) The Constitution also forbids any religious test for holding public office.

3) When you check your history, you'll find the Inquisition was still going on at the time.

4) Many (perhaps) most of the colonist came here to escape religious persection by government's -- on top of the Inquisition.

Did you have any other questions today?

>>>"It is now considered ILLEGAL for a person of faith to express his faith in the public square!"

That's absolutely crazy.

>>>"How is that anything but government regulation of religion and a DIRECT violation of the First Amendment?"

Uhhhhhhh ... because it's not illegal?


Stephen Dow
Dr. Sowell writes that liberals try to stifle free speech. Attack or defend his position by discussing liberal attacks or lack of attacks on free speech. You say only that the right stifles free speech too. This may or may not justify or explain liberal actions, but it does not deal with the charge of Dr. Sowell's essay.

pc--sf and Pete Wilson
I like Pete, he is an anounced Democrat, and a fair talk show host. The SF thing is, I think a lot to do about nothing. Just something for those with a lot of spare time on their hand to howl about. No solutions, just howls.
PC, just another way of stiffle discourse, which is "the crucible from which truth arises".
My friends and relatives forget diversity is a two edged sword. That, as much as we want around us only those with whom we agree, we got to make room for the likes Al Franken, et al. Personally I gag at the thought of Micheal Moore, but that is just my response.
I like the idea that AJA, Americans of Japanise Ancestry, carries. AAA, Americans of African Ancestry, ANA, Americans of Norwiegan Ancestry, etc.
Negro=Black, Masc. Negra=Black Fem. Jusrt playing with words.


Free Speech co-opted by the Liberals

.....caf writes.....

....."once one accepts the constrictions of political correctness he (has) allowed the liberal/socialists to set the terms of the arguement and (has) given control to the left over what speech is acceptable..."

.....the key point here is that conservatives have bought in to the "speech codes" favored by the Liberals....why do conservatives use the term "choice" when the correct term should be "abortion" which is the only choice the Liberals support...

.....if conservatives would call a spade a spade and not be cowed into using politically correct euphemisms then maybe we could save the First Amendment.....COLOSSUS

A false dichotomy
I laugh and mock all you small-minded people who feel that somehow liberal radio is a failure because Air America fails.

Ha! Your opinion exposes you brain size.

I listen to KQED the local NPR affiliate in San Francisco. My favored shows are The Commonwealth Club, the Chitaqua Club, the World Affairs Council and the National Press Club.

Why? Because for 1 hour speeches by the people of record are talking, not some imbecile like Rush recasting everything in views of black and white, liberal vs. conservative. Condie Rice will give a speech for one hour without break. I don't want to hear someone's interpretation of it. I want to hear Condie and make up my own mind.

It's laughable this false dichotomoy of liberal vs. conservative radio. Only a small minded person needs a Rush Limbaugh to do their thinking for them. I want to be *informed* by radio, perferablly by the source, and then come to my own conclusions. And so do most liberals looking at the fact that they listen to NPR and the NPR programming. NPR kicks Limbaugh's butt every day of the week with its audience size.

You can eat your cake though and be all smug in your little false dichotomy world that only conservatives can be succesful with talk radio.

I personally do not need a Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh to do my thinking for me.




Can We Talk
Sowell mentions "prestigious" colleges and universities. They may have been prestigious at one time but the actions like Columbia remove them from such a list! A new list needs to be made with those schools that are NOT PC!

Free speech rights
Where do you people come from?

If the SF Board of supervisors had passed *a law* that fired Pete Wilson then his free speech would have been violated.

They did no such thing. The simply made private citizen requests to his employers to have Pete fired. In which case the employer can say "screw you" and none the worse.

The fist time I heard Sean Hannity on ABC radio I sent an email to ABC requesting he be taken off the air because in my opinion he is obscene, lying and offensive. I would never want any children to accidentally stumble upon the obscenity of Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh either.

As a private citizen I can make such appeals all day long. I was not abridging anyones free speech with my request. Yet, the response I received to my request is that somehow I was against free speech. Hardly, if I had requested my congressman to have a LAW to be written to systematically prevent such speech then it is a violation of the first amendment. Private citizens requesting voluntary action be taken between each other does not involve violating free speech. As private citizens we own the air waves and have a responsibility to see to it they are used appropriately. Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity or no better filth than pornography, IN MY OPINION.

A private citizen making a request is not a law made. This is no different then publically organizing to boycott some company for some political position that company takes. No law, no first amendment violation.

Even if the board of supervisors passes a non-binding resolution to request Pete be fired, it is still *legally* non-binding.

If one is going to live in a free country one should understand what that means. No violation of Pete's first amendment rights can be claimed if no law is being enacted. Pete works in a community that doesn't appreciate his remarks. He knows exactly where he lives and how his remarks would be received. He chose to put himself in this position. Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity say far worse things every day and yet are broadcast daily in the Bay Area and NO ONE is writing a law to remove them. That is tolerance.

Never mistake tolerance for community standards. This applies to pornography, albeit Mary Carey or Rush Limbaugh.










A Point to Satisfy the Fairness Doctrine
Most of the conservative talk is tied to several major outlets. The Democrats want "fairness" or equal time. Since liberals refused to support "their" radio, AirAmerica, why not establish a liberal radio station and invite all the responses for equal time on that air band. They can go 24/7 and you could put Ted Kennedy on at prime time saturday night, 8:00pm. He would probably pre tape the talk, as it would cut into his drinking time.

Rules, all live, phone screener works for the station so there is no easy questions. I think this could be a winner.

La Reina Picara
Your screen name tries my curiosity. Are you truly The Queen Of Mischief? If so, do you apply that trait when discussing politics? :-)

CAF
Thanks for your post. I understood you were just using a specific example to illustrate a more general problem. However, I’ve always disliked the hyphenated American labels and your post reminded me of one of the reasons.

If America implodes one day I am convinced it will be due to “multiculturalism” and “diversity”. We used to celebrate being the “great melting pot” – it didn’t matter your race or origin – we were all proud just for the privilege to call ourselves Americans. Now most of us are just a bunch of self-absorbed individuals with no concern or appreciation for our country and loyalty to none. How sad.

Pistol, TBell
Pistol writes: "It is an irksome trait to use situational principles, depending upon whose ox got gored."

Exactly, that was my point. Sowell takes up an issue where this Administration deserves criticism, and (surprise!) finds a way once again to hammer only liberals. Again I agree that the fairness doctrine is a travesty, and in response to TBell I mention also that yes, all government funding of news media, such as PBS and NPR, should end.

Here's a good post on this topic in regard to "whose ox is gored":
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/10/peggy-noonans-poetic-love-of-dissent.html

Shays
Please at least read the article before you blast it.

Sowell stated the couple had a baby together - not adopted one.

His point was that a radio talkshow host stated an opinion (that's what they do) that a gay man and a lesbian having a baby may not be a good idea - and for stating his opinion the libs want him to resign.

You also state Sowell, "...pretends that right-wing talk show hosts provide room for intelligent discussion with people from the left on their talk shows. Sheesh ... talk about shutting down the dialogue!"

Where in the article did Sowell say anything close to that?!?

Geronimo
“Liberals hate differences. They only freely accept sameness. Oregon Liberals manifest animosity to those who are not like-minded.”

Although I don’t personally know any folks from Oregon, I find this statement incredible. In essence, it’s impossible. Surely one must be different. But more importantly the very negativeness of the statement manifests a similar type of animosity as that you decry. Frankly, the statement could apply to many of the regular conservative as well as liberal commenters on townhall; some in this thread.

Mac

I guess only liberals watch TV.

Can we talk?
Icedog01:

My post was not about African-Americans, although I deplore the term. It was about the insideous erosion of American values under constant attack by the PC liberal/socialists. I believe that George Carlin and I attended the same fine Catholic high school in the South Bronx, Cardinal Hayes. I am not a fan of George. Somewhere in his Catholic eucation he branched off into socialism and today remains a clown whose schtic is repeating filthy words repeatedly until they become meaningless. I have another former classmate from my Catholic grammar school who has also slipped into a belief in the Utopia of Socialism.

My point was PC not Blacks. If we can no longer meet and in a civil way discuss the problems in our culture without some overseer censuring words that the left have deemed unspeakable we are a people unable to talk to each other. My whole professional life was spent providing solutions to real problems not denying that there are problems. The genius of our nation is not that we may have problems, it is the fact that we have assimalated more diverse people into our American culture than any other nation in the world. The issue is not that we may have problems but that we have so few. We have more in common than we have differences. This allows us to come together as Americans to face those who would destroy our unity. The differences are miniscule without the race baiters picking open healing scabs.


Warrior
They should have a course for University Presidents and your college president should be the professor.

Oops
Had to grab the phone.
Should have stopped at "these" and ended up typing
"three"
My Mistake.

HAVE YOU NOTICED?
Liberal/Democrat/Leftwing writers can not get traction on their own.
They have to hang on to the coattails of conservatives.
Don't believe me?
Try these three:
Al Franken's book titled
RUSH LIMBAUGH IS A BIG, FAT IDIOT
And the latest, sad diatribe by the botoxed babe who ran the Dukakis campaign had to make the cover of her book almost identical to ANN COULTER'S BOOK
GODLESS.
I'll let you figure out who the smarmy broad is.

Internal Contradictions
Per usual, Thomas Sowell contradicts his position because his position is essentially nondefensible. NOT the position of the need for us to listen to one another ... that is just common sense and something my mother taught me was nothing more than common politeness (a point made by several in this thread) ... but the arguments he uses to defend that position.

First, he talks about Pete Wilson criticizing a gay San Francisco city councilman adopting a child with his lesbian friend; then he uses the example of a sixty-year old woman giving birth to a child. The arguments are supposed to illustrate how the left has stopped discussion ... but the real point is that it doesn't matter, because it really is nobody's business what the gay city councilman or the sixty-year old woman do with their lives. Including Thomas Sowell, whose opinion he gives at the drop of a hat.

Secondly, he talks about the left not being able to compete with the right on the open air-waves (which may or may not be true), but pretends that right-wing talk show hosts provide room for intelligent discussion with people from the left on their talk shows. Sheesh ... talk about shutting down the dialogue!

Jay
Don't know if I'll make it up to Milwaukee - too friggin cold up there!! You guys must be part polar bear.

However, I'm sure I would enjoy an honest, calm, and reasonable debate with a "slightly left" individual....as I'm sure almost all conservatives wouldn't mind. You could rent yourself out...high demand and extremely limited supply...I smell big bucks!!

PC and un-PC
Doc, actually the US owns the Negro-Black-African American PC quandry. In Latin America, "negro" (black) is commonly used as an expression of affection. In most Latin families there is at least one person called "Negro". Now, these are NEVER black skinned. They are brown skinned persons (of differing shades). Conversely, a black skinned person is referred to as "moreno" (brown). To do otherwise would be terribly un-PC.

Another curiosity is the use of the word "indian". In the US we have no problem with referring to, for example, the Navajo Tribe as the Navajo Indian Tribe. Conversely, in Latin America the use of "indio" denotes an uncouth, uneducated person - definitely insulting. Indians are referred to as "indigena", (indigenous/native).

Franly, I think this PC thing has been carried entirely too far.


Ain't It A Crying Shame?
___ It seems a real shame that Dr. Sowell has to write a column reminding ADULT Americans about the need for reasoned, polite discourse. I got this with my mother's milk, and from all the adults in my family, school and neighborhood.
___ Look at our new national nanny and baby sitter of choice, the TV and how the characters in just about all situation comedies and dramas interact. Do you find anyone you can truly admire? Even the parents? Isn't it just so precious how kids and teenagers can outwit and outgross their poor clueless parents. Satire has become more than hyperbolic, it's become the norm.
___ Think what effect these shows have on foreign audiences. If they think we are like this, well, no wonder so many hate us now.
___ I said it before and I'll say it again. DON'T CRITICIZE, BROTHER, ORGANIZE!

___ Thanks too, Jerubaal. You say it well and always keep me laughing. Kudos to Pistol, BrianR, Solar, DavidMac and Flagwaver. you said it for me... and probably better. I'm real glad to have you in my foxhole passing ammo. Thank you, Dr. Sowell. You're a great American.




Three Points
1. In the early 60s during my days at Ft. Bliss, Oso Negro Gin and vodka were both cheap and acceptable as drink. A fifth cost about 80 cents and the customs charged was very cheap when you crossed back into El Paso.
2. When I taught ROTC at a southern university, the students decided to boycott classes. The students had made up a list of about 15 grievances and they were milling around by the Student Union encouraging (forcefully) students not to attend class. Some of the group "heavies" would roam the classroom halls and when a student was spotted in class, they would go into the class and drag them out. This endured for 4 days. The President of the University appeared on the steps of the Admin Building and said:" I cannot justify keeping this University open, if you will not attend class". The students chanted; "close it, close it". The Presidents response was, " Effective immediately this University is closed, all students must be off campus by 6PM, and all students must re-apply for admission". He passed out leaflets (which had already been written and copied) with the procedures for closing and leaving, told the students the evacuation order would be enforced by the campus and local police, and reiterated the requirement to re-apply for admission. The school was re-opened in 2-3 weeks, 68 student's applications for re-admission were not accepted and the campus returned to normal. There were a few law suits but the University prevailed in all of them. No one was suspended--they just were not accepted for admission. It worked.
Random thought: Humor is often based on a tragedy that has been dulled by the passage of time.
3. Fear is a great motivator--liberals will shut up when the more reasonable people have decided enough is enough and they become violent out of frustration. I will predict veterans will spearhead the march out of the grip of Socialism/Communism and the road of march will be covered in blood. You allow a fool to think and act foolishly, he becomes emboldened by a feeling of skewed power. Frustration slowly grips the purveyors of real power and the false powered fools will be ground under foot without mercy.

Free Speech Requires a Mature Society
I recently experienced what it is like to speak your mind on the street in Portland,Oregon(a.k.a.San Francisco North).Pete Wilson isn't the only one who can not talk freely without risking his job.Nowadays,no subject is safe anymore.

I was doing security at night for a short while in August for FOL Productions,LLC.which was filming a Morgan Freeman feature film titled: "The Feast of Love".It is about an older couple showing a younger couple "the ropes".

The production crew and trailers were located in the HAWTHORNE neighborhood of Portland,Oregon during August.At 10:00PM a couple approached me while watching two rental houses the film crew was using during the day.The woman had a glass of wine in her hand.I was standing in the street.

They began to "shoot the breeze",mentioning subjects like alternative energy.My response was I thought "we appear to be moving towards a third world war over oil".Someone in the neighborhood was listening and apparently did not like the idea we are actually in a war against terror.(It is all part of Oregon's anti-Bush fanaticism).

My employer,a contract security company in Vancouver,WA, got some complaints from FOL Productions about the conversation.Shortly thereafter,I quit.(Working 12 hour nights is a dumb idea).

So,the next time somebody you don't know starts talking(about anything,anywhere,anytime,
politely indicate you are late or some other convenient excuse to discontinue the conversation and move on.Fact is,in today's America,we have so much diversity that no conversation is casual.We have few subjects we can discuss in common without controversy.

Liberals hate differences.They only freely accept sameness.Oregon Liberals manifest animosity to those who are not like-minded.

Another problem in places like Hawthorne Neighborhood in Portland is despite the wholesome looks of an old neighborhood,film crews with celebrities draw local kooks.

I showed up for my only shift at 6:00PM. Morgan Freeman was about to climb into his black Mercedes.Two body guards(black)were standing next to his car in suits.Across the small parking lot,two crazy looking white guys were waiting.(Eyes shifting all over the place in nervous expectation of getting a quick photo of Morgan Freeman before he left for the day).They were acting bizarre and irrational.


Icedog01
"Do these people [reasoning Liberals] still exist?"

There's at least 1 left. If you ever get near Milwaukee, look me up. We can solve the world's problems over a beer or two. I'd look forward to it. Really.

Conservatives behaving badly
"Sowell offered no examples of the reverse or of liberals behaving appropriately."

Of course not. That would spoil his point. Ummm, Ann Coulter on one of her "funnier" days?

I only need to listen to the Mark Belling show on the radio (WTMJ or WISN? I forgot). I've tried, but I can't for more than 5 minutes. This is the guy who referred to Mexicans as "wetbacks". Funny how he doesn't refer to blacks as...you know.

I much prefer Charlies Sykes. Conservative, yes, but he can be reasoned with and won't shout down an opposing viewpoint. I'll disagree with him, but I can respect him.

Free discussion, not free speech
The ability to have a civilized discussion between people of opposing viewpoints is being pounded out of existance by the sheer volume and vitriol of the participants. It does no good to get into the "they started it!" mentality, and free speech does not automaticly guarantee a compliant and easily convinced audience, or any audience, for that matter.

I would like to respectfully ask several questions about the situation in San Fransisco, especially, what is the relationship between the child's parents, and what motivatied them to have a child together? Just an honest answer, please. That would go a long way toward at least my understanding the situation. As far as insisting someone lose their job for saying something I find offensive is simply inconceivable to me. I just don't have to listen nor do I have to worry that any reasonable person would become a danger to me due to someone else's words.

It is high time debate became a civilized event again.

I love it PC= Plain Crap
Not that the right has a perfect record on tolerating free speech--far from it. I have met online some who claim to waive the conservative banner (mainly those of the social conservative variety) who cannot refrain from lapsing into name calling and are incapable of intelligent discussion of various aspects of a conversation.
One poster claimed that Wilson called the child of the gay/lesbian sexual encounter a travesty. If that is so, the comment was definitely uncalled for--because a child is never a travesty no matter how it was conceived.
The point here is free speech. If you want to go blow by blow and point for point, it is the left that has been in the forefront of putting roadblocks (legal and otherwise) on free speech. They are putting into action Malcolm X's maxim "by any means necessary". Sometimes under great duress people have to resort to that means, but for the left to further its agenda "by any means necessary" is the rule of thumb. The whole realm of the PC world is the realm of the Left. Could it be that in their heart of hearts they know that they intellectually don't have a leg to stand on, so outlaw free speech?

CAF
In regards to your African-American post.

I think it was George Carlin (ultra liberal) who first pointed out the problem with this term (in the late 1960s - believe it or not).

If a white supremacist from South Africa moved to the US he would actually be an "African-American"

If a black man from Jamaica or the Virgin Islands moved to America he would also be called an "African-American".

Personally, I've never liked any "hyphened American" term. You are either an American or your not. If you happen to be one of those .0001% of people with duel-citizenship, fine, otherwise drop he unneeded word.

Jay
I agree with you on your comment that the "middle" should be able to talk and reason with each other. My biggest problem lately is trying to find a so-called liberal moderate...our conservative Democrat if you prefer.

Do these people still exist?

90% of the conservatives I know do not agree with 100% of everything deemed to be a "conservative view" - but it seems all the liberals I know fully embrace whatever the liberal leaders tell them to believe - with no room for dissent or discussion whatsoever.

Yes We Can!
I intend to keep talking and exercise my free speech all the way to the voting booth.


Thanks for the point about PC
"The gentlemanly response of Mr Dufty shows that he, the putatively injured party, had no intention of setting the PC dogs on Mr Wilson -- but in spite of that fact, the dogs slipped the leash and began to bay for his resignation."

So the PC crowd is out for blood for the sake of blood, never mind what the target of the "offense" may say.

Just as they say we have call Indians "Native Americans", (Indian, from Spanish "hijos in Dios" - children of God, so say the authors of "The Light and The Glory") and that Indian mascots are offensive to their sensiblities. Did anyone bother to ask the tribes? Almost always, no. Sometimes the tribes come out in support of the mascot and team name. Why does no one go after the Cleveland Indians? That grinning cartoony brave must be offensive, surely.

Sometimes PC-ers do have a point, such as the high school team, the Pekin (IL) Chinks (now the Dragons), but largely they just go for blood.

I'm still trying to figure out how the term "warrior" (Marquette U.) supposedly offends only Native Americans.

Mary in LA
No, I wish that were so but Sowell’s true point is that liberals want to stifle free speech if it disagrees with them. When he wrote, “Political bigwigs in San Francisco say "No." They are demanding that Pete Wilson resign. In San Francisco, no one is supposed to criticize anything done by homosexuals.” he included Dufty, a politician, by default. Further more, the other examples he offered were of liberals trying to silence conservatives. Sowell offered no examples of the reverse or of liberals behaving appropriately.

PC is Plain Crap!!
I agree wholeheartedly. It's the number one reason I avoided university for 20 years. I'm finally getting my BS from a tech school where I don't have to put up with that crap.

Why does political correctness sound like a Soviet plot to me? Does that mean we need to have political officers? I never liked it from the start just for the terminology. It smacked of Soviet Communism. I don't think I was too far off the mark. The aims may be different, but the methods are the same.

Yes, I agree.
"Notice how they want to silence the 'religious right'. Give a group a label, vilify them, and silence them."

People like Dummycrats, appeasers, and traitors? "None is above criticism."

To Goshawk:
"Dr. Sowell, "Can we talk?" ... Makes me think to the skills of communication. A skill that seems to be lost in modern America. True communication requires listening. I mean truly listening, and trying to understand what is being said.

An impossibility with Liberals!"


Put away the big brush. I hear you, and in some cases I agree with you. I may argue a difference in methods (such as DHS) or how effective something is (e.g. Iraq), but I hear your concerns.

By and large, I think the politicians and pundits aren't listening. They're too busy pleasing their audiences and going for ratings (for what is an election but ratings?).

Rebuttal to skier
"Liberals don't want to allow discussion of the issues because they know they will be on the losing ending of the debate..."

I could say the same about Conservatives. Try to criticize Homeland Security or any other pet project since 9/11 (especially Iraq), even if the criticism is fair, and the more vocal among them start screaming "traitor" or "appeaser".

As Mr. Sowell said, NONE is above criticism, and I'm willing to take my lumps with the rest.

The problem is we've become a nation of extremists, or at least targets of extremist vitriol, either in being called something or in them trying to get us to agree with their extreme viewpoints.

Call it my eternal optimism (or naivete), but I believe most us are reasonable people and want to meet in the happy middle if the loudmouth extremists would only shut their traps a while to let us converse.

Missing the point?
MikeR wrote:
"Also, Bevan Dufty, the father of the child e-mailed Wilson and the San Francisco Chronicle later in the week, saying that he did not want to see Wilson resign or lose his job over the situation. It seems Sowell didn’t mention that either."

Contrary to what you're implying there, if Mr Sowell had mentioned the behavior of Mr Dufty, it would have strengthened his point, not weakened it.

The gentlemanly response of Mr Dufty shows that he, the putatively injured party, had no intention of setting the PC dogs on Mr Wilson -- but in spite of that fact, the dogs slipped the leash and began to bay for his resignation. The existence and power of the PC pack is the actual focus of the article.

Response to Stephen Dow
As for Stephen Dow's comments earlier. Did you know Lincoln had called critics of the Civil War antagonists and had them arrested and thrown out of the country? Did you know Lincoln had newspapers shutdown that were critical of him and the war? Did you know FDR had 110,000 Japanse-Americans rounded up and thrown into containment camps during World War II? Maybe you should consider this before you talk about Bush taking people's free speech away by not allowing them to wear certain t-shirts. By the way if this were true why doesn't Bush also have the hundreds of anti-Bush books banned, ban the anti-war protests, have Cindy Sheehan, Harry Reid, John Kerry and many others arrested or silenced, shutdown the NY Times, and so. Now I'm for your right to speak, but don't people who have given the right of free speech have an obligation to use it responsibly?

Stalinists
The liberals and their mainstream media accomplices have engaged in stalinist tactics for quite a while. They have succeeded in institutionalizing PC. From early on in school kids are taught there are certain things you can't say because you may offend someone. Then if there are a few adults that slip through the cracks and make it through the PC indoctrination the stalinists try to silence them. They throw pies at them, they storm the stage, they shout them down.

I saw a video on youtube of Rush Limbaugh guest hosting a show back in 1990, and their were a few liberals in the audience who kept screaming and hurling insults at Rush to silence him. If these stalinist can't silence people this way they try to smear and impugn these people. They have false charges pressed against them, they paint them as a hypocrite because they don't live lives that are a complete 100% embodyment of what they say. All in attempt to shut people up that don't preach their agenda.

These Stalinists lost their media monopoly when the fairness doctrine was abolished and Fox News was started. And these drives them crazy! That's why they want to "Hush Rush" and paint Fox news as an ultra conservative biased news. They can't understand that conservative Radio has become popular solely because people are listening to them.

No, we cannot talk
We don't even speak the same language.

Jeesh Doc
I haven't thought about Oso Negro since my days at Fort Bliss. My memory is it was 49 cents a fifth in Juarez, the AAA's popskull of choice.

PCism the new religion
Thomas Sowell you are right on. Again I say you and Newt would be an unbeatable team.

Bye the way I have had my share of Oso Negro from Mexico. It used to come with a trinket on each gallon ($1.00 please). The trinket was a black bear. Does that ring a bell with anyone, negro = black, no more no less.

Ed

DavidMac
Flagwaver and Skip are the experts on this. Flagwaver has a site, just click on his name whenever he posts something. But you probably know this, i've seen your handle before and you've probably been arond much longer than this newbie.

Pistol . . .
posted, "Black conservatives drive the lefties crazier."

True. The socialists want a class (blacks) to be in absolute lock-step with their Marxist ideology. Any deviation is considered treason.

That's why the left villifies people like Bill Cosby for speaking the truth.

To the Socialist-Democrats, their worst enemy is a black Republican. It ruins their propaganda.

You've got to be kidding.
First, Wilson did not simply suggest that “a child is not an experiment”. He said that the child was a “travesty”. Considering the ‘passion’ of many of the folks that comment here, I can’t imagine that such a comment would go over very big if Air America applied it to president Bush’s daughters or one of your own daughters for that matter. It’s odd how Sowell neglected to mention what was actually said. Also, Bevan Dufty, the father of the child e-mailed Wilson and the San Francisco Chronicle later in the week, saying that he did not want to see Wilson resign or lose his job over the situation. It seems Sowell didn’t mention that either. May be he can’t talk either.

Moreover, he brings this up as a launch point to his real agenda of ‘honest expressions of opinion about issues involving anything from affirmative action to women in the military can get you suspended if you refuse the humiliation and hypocrisy of being "re-educated."’ on college campuses and society in general. Now I know that colleges are very liberal in opinion (except for the conservative ones) but rarely have I witnessed or heard of anything outlandish at my local colleges. This is not a defense of free speech or the open exchange of ideas. It is about eliminating dissention with his opinions.

Finally, the icing on the cake is all the responders who site the liberal as demons of suppressing free speech yet fail to acknowledge Sowell’s very good opening point or the possibility that conservatives ever engage in any form of harsh speech or speech suppression.

NPR
If liberals in Congress want to look at "fairness" and "balance" in broadcasting, it makes sense to me that NPR would be a good place to start.

Stephen Dow - "mindless Bush cheerleader"?!? While the Dow is hitting all-time highs on the stock market, it's reaching all-time lows right here.

Silicondoc
Your point is the reason that so many effective proponents of conservative thinking are the same ethnic backgound as the author of this column. Black conservatives drive the lefties crazier.

good questions, Keepontryon
but we will never be allowed to ask them.

Why does a gay -lesbian marriage exist?
Nobody here has strayed from the heat intended
by those who want to control free speech to avoid
any sign of failure to adhere to PC concepts meant
to avoid offending anyone, to address the real
question:

Why would a gay and a lesbian want to
marry or live together to raise a child of the
lesbian? Is it to prove that such a marriage or
co-op living arrangement can produce a better life
for each of these surrogate parents by raising a
child? Is it to prove that the child will grow to
understand that parents can love him/her even though
they do not love each other? Or is it to show that
they do love each other but simply can't abide sex
between male and females who love each other?

Where is the rest of the story?

Science requires faith
As the Pope discussed, Science by it's very nature requires faith in a rational, explainable Universe, and The Christian God was an important pillar of this during the middle ages and early renaissance as Science was born. Nowadays we take this view of the Universe for granted, and forget that it required faith in a rational God as a designer in order to give birth to science.

Can we talk?
The liberal/socialist concept of "free speach" overlaid with "political correctness" has been one of the most destructive elements in political discourse. Once one accepts the constrictions of political correctness he has allowed the liberal/socialists to set the terms of the argument and given control to the left over what speech is acceptable.

Negroes rejected that racial classification as demeaning because white men (Anthropologists) coined the classification. Never mind that the only trained anthropologists happened to be white Europeans. Negros mandated that they preferred to be called Black and the civilized world acquiesced. They then decided that they would really prefer to be called African-Americans and a compliant civilized world again acquiesced but an important concession had been gained. Negroes learned that they could feign insult at anything and whitey could be made to jump through hoops to avoid being offensive.

The scientific classification "Negroe" was corrupted by the Southern slaveholders (Southern Democrats)to nigra and from there to the dreaded "N" word -- n****r.

Note: my posting was initially refused because I actually spelled out the dreaded "N" word in the discussion. How beaten down by PC are we that we can no longer use words deemed offensive by the PC police in the discussion of the problem?

During the 60's, among the politically correct, this word, if uttered by anyone but a black person produced such hurt and anguish that it is claimed a pregnant black women would miscarry and black men would go into total shock from the hurt of hearing the dreaded "N" word. This despite the fact that the dreaded word was and still is librally salted through conversations among blacks in the "hood." Once again the black man found a way to figuratively take the lash to whitey.

Next, the black man discovered that the mere sight of a Confederate flag was so offensive that it must never be shown. To accept this, one had to forget that, in the 60's, the Confederate flag was immensly popular in TV series and movies and no one seemed to feel any great discomfort at its appearance in public, particularly in the South. Today, the fact that a possible Republican candidate for the presidency once had a Confederate flag in his office is cited as a disqualifier for running and prima facie evidence that this politician is a racist.

Now I do not stand for denigrating anyone or doing something that might offend another. with minor exception, most people feel this way but we seem to have lost all reason and have allowed ourselves to be controlled and pushed in an direction on the mere suggestion that someone might --not has been but --might be offended by something that the commisars of PC decree is inappropriate.

I refuse to accept the PC premise imposed by the liberal/socialists. By my refusal to accept the rules established by the left they can not introduce PC "givens" or proclaimed "common knowledge" into the discussion. The restraints of PC are those we accept in order to avoid being considered a bigot or all around "bad" person. All you have to do to be free of elitist bullies is to refuse to play the game.

Liberals are like spoiled children
having a tantrum. But instead of putting their hands over their own ears and shouting "na, na,na, na, na" (so to not hear opposing thought), they want to place their hands over everyone else's ears. They know they are unarmed in the battle for ideas, so they want to disarm those who are not.

Civility
I once heard a professor who had taught in both the 1930s and the 1960s say that students in both decades were equally radical, but the students in the 1930s were polite and listened to those with opposing viewpoints, while those in the 1960s were impolite and tried to silence them. Impoliteness and silencing those with different viewpoints needn't be a part of leftism. It is just too bad that it is part of it today.

Jerubaal
Comedy is the sugar that makes the medicine go down. Thank you, BrianR, Solar, Jimmy, Lydia and all those others that keep me from crying by keeping me laughing.

Ineffective parenting
...One wonders from whence came these hoards of howling Lefties. I'm guessing they are the same little brats whose parents thought their tantrums, frequently thrown in public, were cute.
...How many of us (or our children) have been denied a civilized environment in which to enjoy a meal, a movie, an event, or a class, because Lefty parents had no regard for anyone else?

Liberal Thinking
I have at times tried to have a conversation with people who hold liberal ideas. They can't seem to rationally defend their opinions in any meaningful way, so they begin to attack or deflect, i.e., Bush is Hitler, Minuteman are thugs who beat up poor 'undocumented workers', and other such Democrat talking points. They simply don't have the ability to defend thier point of view because most of their opinions come from how they "feel" rather than how they think.

K Sacandy
The power to tax is the power to destroy. The power to destroy is the power to control. You take gov't money, you can kiss your freedom goodbye. Wasn't there some guy in some old book who sold out for a mess of pottage?

Free Speech (sorta)
The leftists (with their ideology firmly planted in the economic theories of Marx & Engels and their politics in the totalitarian rule of Stalinism) define "free speech" as any speech they agree with.

If they (the socialist left) don't like what they hear, they attack the speaker and attempt to censor the speech on the grounds of "political correctness".

That's the left's idea of "tolerance".

The really bad news is that about 25% of Americans agree.

No child should be used.
The poor little kids are simply window dressing to make these foks feel good about themselves. How will the kids learn the roll a man and a woman have in this world, and yes as non pc as it is, I do believe each has a definate roll i the world.

Free Speech on College campus
The other night in class the professor asked the class with some incredulity if we believed it that Harvard was running remedial classes but California was not. I asked if he thought that was because California has a state law outlawing affirmative action. He totally ignored my comment and no one else spoke up. I take classes in the South. Race is the elephant in the room. Talk about free speech. Hah!

fiddler, be ready . . .
You have just given "ian" the cue to start prattling about Jefferson and Monroe being deists and not theistic Christians, which, in his little mind means that nothing either said about God applies.

Just wait. It's coming. If not from "ian", it will come from some other whiner who believes the constitution is a "living document."

Re "Test"
I often read comments which are replies to a given person and when I search for the original it cannot be found. What happened to it?

I sent the 'Test" and then flagged it as offensive to see if it would be removed. That did not happen, the only thing that happened was "flag as offensive" became red.

Again, where are the missing posts?

Not Just in SF
"In San Francisco, no one is supposed to criticize anything done by homosexuals."

That's right. Having lived in the occupied Bay Area for many years before I had the opportunity to escape, I can attest to this fact. Homosexuals control almost every facet of public life and public speech. There is no free speech in San Francisco. In San Francisco smut is shoved down the population's throat continually and if you speak out, you get crucified. In San Francisco you are encouraged to parade down Market Street naked during their annual Sodomy Celebration, but stand on the corner with a sign proclaiming homosexual acts as sinful, there's a good chance you'll go to jail (or at least get beat up).


Bond, James Bond
ianfleming asked if the founders had intended separation of church and state. The answer, of course, is no. The establishment clause (which does not include the words "separation, church or state", although the word "of" is in there, was intended allow the practice of denominational Christianity without control from the Federal government. Read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Church if you want to see what separation of Church and state really meant.

I wish I had
a dollar for every time I've heard a self-professed liberal utter the phrase:

"You don't have a right to say ___________!"

There is nothing so intolerant as a leftist ranting against intolerance.

Our Money Used Against Us
It is now expected because true that the P.C. crowd exerts continuous force to narrow speech to the confines it prefers. What astonishes me is not what the vocal left minority does, but what the silent majority right accepts....

Through the instruments of the Internal Revenue Code and other tax leveraging, the left-tyrants now control the institutions of the silent majority. For example, the natural place, perhaps even seat, of opposition to pretending homosexual behavior is normal is in the churches. But due to their exemption from the taxes under a "charitable" exemption, the government dictates what the churches' representatives can say. This basically ties the churches' hands behind their backs. It's hideous!! I'm not a believer, but I do believe in freedom of speech and association, which the tax code KILLS.

Then, again through tax leveraging, the so-called "free" public education system. Since the government controls it, it is managed under the dictates of those that control the judiciary's dictates. We know who controls those. The nation's children would be better off both in performance measures and in moral education if public schools were abolished and private schools existed exclusively. Or, if the Supreme Court justices were impeached when they sat as a constitutional convention and changed the meaning of it to suit their new age ideas.

We have given up our precious rights, in order to get our tax monies returned to us.... We are blackmailed with our own money....

Pistol
"You know very well a pun is the lowest form of humor"

And comedy is the lowest form of art!

jerubaal
Clean it up J. I find it offensive when you talk about disturbing ends. You know very well a pun is the lowest form of humor :-)

beez
Beautifully stated. My prayer is that the SCOTUS will one day have enough constitutionists sitting to return us to the federal system that has a chance of surviving.

College Speech
If I were the president of the univesity I would have expelled every student that attacked the guest speaker, and I would have suspended the hecklers or given them mandatory first amendment sensitivity classes.

beez
"It is now considered ILLEGAL for a person of faith to express his faith in the public square!"

That's not true - you just can't do it in a public capacity or in a school if a liberal will be offended.

Boris
"sodomy statutes i.e. putting gays is jail for being gay, his "concern" for free speech and expreassion is bit overrated. "

So let me get this straight. Being gay means that you are continuously committing sodomy? I don't really see how that's possible, but what a frightening thought! Maybe we should put them in jail if they have that kind of power and are using it to that disturbing end.

Also, I've never considered the possibility of expressing yourself in someone else's behind. Expressing myself out of my own behind, now, I think should be protected speech. For example, in the way Terrance and Philip do it.

Stephen Dow
No sir. It is an excellent question to bring up and ---- we should talk about it. Frey has the right attitude. My perception is your position is that it is perfectly OK for places where the leftists are in control to restrict free speech because there are places where the right restricts free speech. Two wrongs do not make a right. Defend your views on the merits, please. It is an irksome trait to use situational principles, depending upon whose ox got gored. Neither Foley nor Studd can be defended by citing the other. To put political agenda ahead of logic and principle leads only to grief.

mike_hihn
I think you need to study up on the founders. You won't find the phrase "Separation of Church and State" or anything even close to that in the US Constitution or the Federalist Papers.

The First Amendment prevents the ESTABLISHMENT of a state religion. I would argue, but that others wiser and more articulate than I already have, that Secular Humanism is the forced, established religion of the United States thanks to communist front organizations like the ACLU.

It is now considered ILLEGAL for a person of faith to express his faith in the public square! How is that anything but government regulation of religion and a DIRECT violation of the First Amendment?

None Of my Bussiness???
I know it none of my bussiness, but yet it breaks my heart, to hear a five year old tell his lesbian mother (he's adopted} that he beleives that, two woman should not marry, this breaks my heart as he did'nt choose this un-natural life, and if he is too live that life, the chances are that it will effect him negatively. This is one of the famous rosie's that hurls hate filled words at some many. I am replused by these circumstances that we see today, in a society that has lost its moral compass. God help us all as evil is rampant and it is growing at an alarming rate.

In Left America
"Tolerance" means that you are free to agree with everything I say or shut up.

College Speech
"Young people educated at our most prestigious colleges and universities are learning the lesson that storm trooper tactics can silence those who are not in vogue on campus, and honest expressions of opinion about issues involving anything from affirmative action to women in the military can get you suspended if you refuse the humiliation and hypocrisy of being 're-educated.'"

Were I a student, my reponse to that would be "Drop the charges (of hate speech) or I will sue you."


It is mind control
Language is what controls our thought processes. We think in a language. Languages have different words that cause the users of that language to think differently than users of a different langauage. When someone tries to control our language, they are trying to control our thoughts. If one controls the terminology, he defines the debate. We know where the left falls in this debate by watching their reations to speech. When a conservative fights discrmination by opposing quotas, it is hate speech; when a liberal promotes discrmination through quotas, by dividing the races on campus and in caucuses it is the epitome equality. Because they trumpet it that way like braying jackasses. George Orwell was a man of limited vision. His horror stories about 1984 and Animal Farm couldn't dream of what is actually being promoted by the left.

Dow
Stephen, You're just silly.

ianfleming
ianfleming writes: Tuesday, October, 17, 2006 5:12 AM

>>>"That explains the rationale for the separation of Church and State crowd."

The founders?


PC is Plain Crap!!
Foxnews Gave Me another Reason for Not Watching
Foxnews or Sports, Besides Unvailing the Closet Liberal "OReilly" earlier Last year!!!
The Firing of Sports Commentator Steve Lyons; Over His "Funny Off The Cuff Wallet Joke
With Fellow Commentator "Lou Pinella".
You Deserve the likes of "Billary" and "The Rainbow Co-Extortion Inc", of Jackson/Sharpton.

"Thank God" For The Weather Channel And The Real
Un-Spun News on The Internet!!


Homosexual, Heterosexual
I think it is important, the fight between homosex and herosex, is simply this, Good parents, simply must instill proper and decent values for children, it is not proper to teach children that it is good for one to consider same sex relationships, as this moves the indiviual away from proper morals. We must strive to teach children sexual responsiblity, this is just as important a self-disicipline and moral value, wise choice as the decent person can strive to be a successful role model for the human Mother and Father. Children need to feel the parents thoughtful care, to know that their parent love each other and their children, this is the basis for the family. Just as we would instill good morals and values, and discipline in our childrens character. This is a truth that seems to be overlooked and discounted. Every child holds a dream that their parents love each other and their children. Honesty taught to children is a value that brings many rewards in life, is life and one to embrace. With Honesty starting with one's self, the truth will unfold into a spring of wealth. These are gifts given by the creator, when one lives by the living word, and creates a life in which many deceptions can be exposed, leaving the soul with truth and conscience and a better and more sane way to live life!!! Amen!!! Praise Jesus!!!!

Inarticulate Nay-Sayers
...which demonstrate the rationale for speech suppression. If you are NOT articulate, it is in your best interest to suppress those who are. At least that's the belief system.

Notice how they want to silence the 'religious right'. Give a group a label, vilify them, and silence them.

That explains the rationale for the separation of Church and State crowd. Silence religion, and then put your own atheism/secularism in charge. Once more, its all about power over people.

Why do criminals charge good men with crimes? Why do secularists charge the faithful with 'unrighteous dominion'? Why do the Democrats charge the Republicans with unethical behavior? Why does Clinton charge America's prosperous with greed?

It all boils down to the same thing.

Sowell
Sounds like Boris is humping a straw man there.

Bush and freedom of the press
The fact that Helen Thomas is still allowed into the White House Press Corps meetings pretty much destroys your thesis.

Sowell
How sanctimonious can you get. Remembering how Sowell supported sodomy statutes i.e. putting gays is jail for being gay, his "concern" for free speech and expreassion is bit overrated.


Say what -- ??
"Mindless Bush Cheerleader"??

Stephen you need to eat those words. You obviously haven't a CLUE what you're talking about.

Little room to talk
Certainly the fairness doctrine was an abomination, as are campus speech codes, etc. But this is old stuff, and with the Bush record on free speech and freedom of the press (screening attendees for political views at all Bush appearances, arrests for wearing the wrong t-shirt, secret payments for favorable columns, getting Gannon in the White House press corps, ...) I would think even a mindless Bush cheerleader like Sowell would realize "Can we talk?" is not a good question to bring up.

Bush answer: "No, not here, but when you arrive at Gitmo, you'll find it in your best interest to do so."

Good article
These actions by my fellow left-wingers are an embarrassment, not to mention a crying shame, to moderates like me. No one ever lost anything by talking, or by listening. But, apparently, a lot of people (on both sides) today prefer shouting, and shouting is louder.

Speaking just for myself, I intend to keep talking, and to keep listening.

Interesting title
Dr. Sowell, "Can we talk?" ... Makes me think to the skills of communication. A skill that seems to be lost in modern America. True communication requires listening. I mean truly listening, and trying to understand what is being said.

An impossibility with Liberals! They have no interest in listening or trying to understand an opposing viewpoint. They wish only to be heard. Freedom of speech only applies to them. Anyone else must be shut down, one way or the other.

It doesn't matter what the subject is. It is the Liberal way or none!

Liberals
don't want to allow discussion of the issues because they know they will be on the losing ending of the debate. What better way to get what you want than by screaming and kicking loud enough to drown out the other side. Free speech is being lost in this country because of the PC crowd. Whatever happened to, I disagree with what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it?

Sweet article...
Nobody stimulates my thought processes like Sowell...
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