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Tuesday, October 03, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Socialism for the rich
by Thomas Sowell
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Although socialism has long claimed to be for the poor, it has probably done more damage, on net balance, to the poor than to the rich. After all, the rich have enough money to leave the country if they think the socialists are going to do them any serious harm.

Some of our own rich have already had their money leave the country, to be sheltered from the higher taxes that limousine liberals say we should all pay. Meanwhile, the liberal media give them kudos for their selfless advocacy of higher taxes on higher income people, forgetting that these are not taxes on wealth.

Most of the people in the upper income brackets are not rich and do not have wealth sheltered offshore. They are typically working people who have finally reached their peak earning years after many years of far more modest incomes -- and now see much of what they have worked for siphoned off by politicians, to the accompaniment of lofty rhetoric.

The rich have learned to adapt socialist policies to their own benefit. For example, the city of Riviera Beach, Florida, is planning to demolish a working class neighborhood under its power of eminent domain, in order to prepare the way for a marina for yachts, luxury condominiums and an upscale shopping district.

What will the city of Riviera Beach get out of all this? More taxes from higher-income people, enabling local politicians to spend more money on programs to attract votes.

Meanwhile the rich get rid of lower-income folks without having to pay them the value of their homes and businesses that will be demolished. As in so many other cases, eminent domain is socialism for the rich.

Theoretically, those whose homes and businesses are demolished will get the "just compensation" to which the Constitution says they are entitled.

In reality, just announcing plans to demolish the homes in an area will immediately demolish part of their market value. Even if homeowners are compensated for whatever value remains when their homes are actually demolished -- which can be years later -- they have still been had.

For businesses, compensating them for the value of their physical assets -- which may or may not include ownership of the place where their businesses are located -- does nothing to compensate them for the often much larger value of the clientele they have built up over the years but who are now scattered to the winds by neighborhood demolition.

This game doesn't work the same way in rich neighborhoods. Not only can the rich hire big-bucks lawyers to fight city hall, why would city hall want to get rid of upscale taxpayers, who are often also big donors to political campaigns?

A very different form of socialism for the rich protects their communities from even the dangers of a free market. A whole array of laws and policies prevents outsiders from buying up property near them, even when these outsiders are ready to pay prices determined by supply and demand, rather than by eminent domain.

For example, the "open space" laws that have spread across the country to protect upscale communities represent one of the biggest collectivizations of land since the days of Josef Stalin.

Upscale residents say that they have a right to protect "our community." But not even the rich own the whole community.

They own what they paid for -- their own individual property. But they get the government to collectivize the often vastly larger surrounding property, in order to keep the unwashed masses from settling near them and spoiling their views.

Moreover, they wrap themselves in the mantle of idealism while doing this and denounce the "selfishness" of those who would stoop to building homes or apartments to house others, just to make money.

"Developer" is a cuss word to those who wax indignant in their righteous zeal to keep other people out. Why can't these money-grubbing developers just inherit money, like so many of the upscale idealists?

Meanwhile, back in the working class neighborhood in Riviera Beach, it is being defended legally by the Institute for Justice, one of the few "public interest" organizations that deserve the name.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Dr. Sowell
Each week, I wait for Dr. Sowell's columns. Clarity and understanding of today's world seems so simple. If I had a chance, he would be Sec of Treasury, Education, State, Commerce, and h=in his spare time be on the Supreme Court. Yes, I am a conservative. How dare I like a black man to do this? Simple. He is very very capable. Thank you Dr. Sowell for making sense when little else does.

Lou from Aspen

What can we possibly DO about this?
Except the time honored 'walk it off.'

The rich get richer and the poor go broke.

These are local issues, just a thought
Become a city councilman and prevent it from ever happening; attend council meetings; vote; sign or write petitions or referenda.

Or, become rich.

My, My, Stinkin' Rich, Dem-Lib-Soc/Coms
Dr. Sowell,
The protection of property rights is without doubt one with the protection of our people from IslamoNazis and from certain Democrat-Liberal-Socialist/Communist nincompoops of that great blockheaded group, the "stupid, publicity seeking rich," personified by the bubbleheads in show biz who have no idea that were one like the Castro and Chavez they constantly fawn over, or me, for God's sake, to gain power in the U.S. and institutionalize socialistic concepts, their teensy bopping butts would be the first violated (other words would perhaps be more descriptive, but one does have a certain sense of propriety).

Regardless, Sir, your article caused this iron-pants to reflect on the plight of middle class land and business owners in the U.S. And to wonder at the asinine, counter Constitional reasoning of the five black-clad monstrosities on the Supreme(?) Court who voted to deprive we "non-rich" of the right to own our property and to dispose of it as we may so choose.

May the vulturine souls of the five "justices(?)" rot forever in Dante's inferno.

James O. Dirden
CSM, U. S. Army
'44-'49/'50-'73

Big Bussiness, Big Profits
The rich, are the deviant one's. They practice the art of robbing the less endowed. By taking from the poor to give to the rich, thus making a Mockery of our Creator's Gifts.

JUST ADD IT TO THE LIST
Of another reason that the yack yasses in Washington are giving the average American citizens for taking Thomas Jefferson's advice, advice that he was nice enough to leave written down in something called the Declaration of Independence, it is as follows.
"
Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government... it is their Right, it is their DUTY, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

WHERE IS THE ACLU?
I notice Dr. Sowell didn't mention any other "public service" organizations, like the ACLU, stepping up to help these people in Florida any more than they tried to help those in Conn. But, you could bet the farm that if a park were being built with tax money and a statue of Jesus, or the ten commandments, were placed there they would be screaming their heads off about seperation of church and state.

I have never heard of the Institute of Justice but I am going to check them out. For to many years now I have watched groups like the ACLU drift away from their original intent, helping people, towards a more socialist outlook.

No religion allowed in public schools and no refrences to religion on, or in, any public building. They fight for "special" rights for small groups of people, gays and lesbians in particular, because, I guess, they think they do not enjoy the same rights that all Americans enjoy.

These are just two examples of how most public service organizations are nothing more than tools used by the far left trying to destroy this country and all we stand for. That is why they are not in Florida trying to help the citizens keep their property.

Private property rights is one of our most precious rights and it goes against the ACLU's socilist agenda. It's a fight against government abuse that they do not want to win.



Donaldd
"Pass their injured, old, and sick off to hospital emergency rooms they can't afford, Social Security Disability, Medicade and Government Retirement plans."

Can you provide specific examples of this, as Dr. Sowell has done for his argument? He has the city of Riviera Beach to point to; there is also the case of New London, CT, to point to for an example of Eminent Domain used to benefit the rich over the working class - and who voted to protect the working class in THAT case??? Why... the CONSERVATIVES on the Supreme Court! The libs and moderates all voted in favor of the big guy over the little guy!

"No changes in Social Security can pass unless the major Insurance companies and others approve."

Would this be the same Social Security which George W. Bush tried to reform, only to run into a bunch of Democrats who claimed that he was just making up the problems with it?

Can't have it both ways, Donny boy, though I have noticed you've sure tried once or twice.

"The Medicare Drug Bill allows Busineses to drop drug insurance coverage for retirees and forces them into the Government's plan."

Medicare is for Seniors, Donny boy. You are getting your situations confused; Medicare cannot take the place of a corporate medical plan. So I would be very curious to see a concrete example of a business trying to use that dodge. Else I would file it under "another liberal lie."

And, even if you are RIGHT: comparing this to the scenarios Dr. Sowell described in his column is apples to guavas. If you feel like your company is treating you unfairly, you have several non-mutually-exclusive options, including getting a job elsewhere and suing your old company. Lord knows there are plenty of anti-business lawyers and judges out there to help you along. But you can't fight City Hall, as the saying goes, especially not when City Hall has behind them the imprimatur of a seriously, grossly unjust Supreme Court ruling.

Yes, businesses have a lot of power to harm people and ruin lives, no question. But they can't begin to approach the power of the government to do exactly the same thing.

About those rich...
The Kennedy clan screams for higher taxes, yet they paid little (if anything) on the wealth they inherited from America's staunchest supporter of Hitler & the Nazis - "boot-leg Joe".

Fergus
"Yes, businesses have a lot of power to harm people and ruin lives, no question. But they can't begin to approach the power of the government to do exactly the same thing."

Government is the only one that can do it at the point of a gun. You can't sue your government unless they let you. No business has that kind of power.

This column should sit beside John Stossel's recent column to help to educate those poor people who still believe that the government (read demoncrat party) is going to help them. "We're from the government and we're here to help" still ranks up there as the last words I want to here at my front door.

Truly, the real "rich" (Hollywood, the inherited, Soros) are the only ones that can afford to be socialists. Socialism takes away the American Dream. It removes all incentives to get out, kill something, and bring it home.

The rest of us are just too dumb and uneducated to understand. They're just trying to help...


PearlieGirl
If there were no Medicare, no Social Security, the companies would have nowhere to "Dump" people. If there were not gov't mandated insurance minimum coverage, people would work / buy insurance where they could get the best deal. Companies would compete, like they were supposed to, instead of turning to gov't to solve problems.

Which party benefits the most when government programs grow, by the way?


FairTax
Another excellent column by Dr. Thomas Sowell. The FairTax would solve the problem of the rich sheltering money overseas. The consumption tax would be brunted most by the rich. A marina for yachts, luxury condominiums and an upscale shopping district would all cost a lot of money, and no matter where the rich keep that money, they will have to cough up 23% for all those expensive items.

taxes and me.
hi, my name is george chapogas
i live in playas del coco, costa rica, and rivas, nicaragua. i have 2 nice homes i go back and forth to. i am 52 years old.

at age 48 living in the peoples republic of eugene oregon. i was self employed had a small advertising /CHAPCO ADVERTISING/agency i worked exclusively with auto dealers. my last month of operation was Aug 2004.

made a good living, people working for or with me made above average incomes. I PAID CLOSE TO 15% SELF EMPLOYMENT TAX, 10% STATE INCOME TAX, TOP FED TAXES /AS YOU RISE IF YOU ARE SINGLE W/OUT KIDS YOU START LOSING EXEMPTIONS QUICKLY AND PAY even HIGHER RATES/ PLUS OTHER FEES, BIZ TAXES,LAWYERS, TAXES ON MY EMPLOYEE, AND OF COURSE HEALTH CARE PAID OUT OF POCKET.

i decided that was just stupid. so i ceased working, sold and am selling all american holdings. have some property here, but the trick is to get out and not work in the usa. i no longer pay state taxes, self employemnt taxes or much in american income tax. by converting most of my income to long term cap gain 15% rate i can earn much much less, and net the same. duh. near me are many other "expats". not just the usa. i have ex business friends here and FROM other places like canada, france, italy, and sweeden.

i would never lie to the irs. no need to. just do it right according to their rules and drop the heck out. you owe that sick system nothing. these people here, myself included, are not selfish. indeed most of the others, of course not me, are important decent people any country needs to push the job creating business.

but heck its ok, i am helping the economy of nicaragua and costa rica. rebuilding, investing, true love of work, your spirit can remain whole while pursueing ideas in a less anal culture while learning another language.

atlas has and is shrugging. and why not.

besides, you get to learn things you would never guess are true. like how free and low tax a country known as communist in the USA nicaragua is. i love nicaragua. no hassels, low tax, hardest working people with great family hearts i have ever met ...but man do they gossip! now if nicaragua can have freedoms and low taxes what is wrong in the usa????

so anyway, i encourage you. bail. get out. the world needs you. and the usa has simply become stupid. look,i am sorry, but american pride is misplaced. like the french, in the usa our pride has become historical. see what these ant farmers have done to destroy the american dreams of liberty and get out!

feel free to write for information and photos i would take great pride in draining more productive people out of the usa. they do not deserve your efforts.

yeah, eugene oregon cured me!

gcblues_coolazul@yahoo.com



useful idiots
Kennedy and Kerry have all the money they will ever need. Sorry saps who support their efforts to drive up higher tax rates are locking themselves out of ever having that level of wealth. I have been saying this for years.

Its too bad the rich-envy gets the better of some people.

Also this RUBBISH about businesses harming people is just vile propaganda. Every single dollar given to a business is in return for something the consumer needs. ONLY the government can take your property and give you nothing in return(which it often does).

Dr. Sowell You've Got My Vote
The Wall Street Journal had an article yesterday titled Democrats' Risky Strategy: Trumpeting the Wealth Gap, detailing their predictable strategy to incite hate among the economic classes.

Among all the usual Democratic talking points about the "rich" getter richer and the "middle class" not doing so well, and CEO's making "too much" money, and on and on, I found a telling statement made by Treasury Secretary, Henry Paulson.

Paulson said in a speech in September "I believe it is the responsibility for all nations to search for ways to moderate income disparities." Is this what Paulson is paid to do...moderate income disparities? If I wanted my "nation" to moderate my "income disparity" I would move to a socialist/communist country.

This disgusts me.

To George, Pearlie Girl
I am happy for you that you have found a way of life that makes you happy.

However, I can not disagree with you more when you say that American pride is misplaced. Yes, the American system has become fouled by regulation and over-taxation. But that is only one small portion of what makes the United States great. Moreover, I firmly believe that the U.S. is salvageable, that the American way of life is reparable. And if you have no desire to be part of the solution, then God bless you, and we're better off without you.

Now, PearlieGirl: You corrected a mis-perception on my part, thank you. We are discussing retirees, not current workers. Fair enough.

That said, I don't believe I am wrong when I say that, as bad as that situation might be, what the government can do, and does do, is far worse. A business can only stop giving you what they promised to give you. Government can take away what you already have, at the point of a gun. That to me is far, far worse. This is the point of Mr. Sowell's piece, and I would challenge you to rebut that argument.

Again, thank you for clearing up a misperception on my part.

Mercantilism by another name?
Isn't lack of secure, well defined property rights one of the major reasons, if not THE reason why third world countries stay poor? I believe that's what Hernando de Soto argues in his book "The Mystery of Capital". With no legal institutions to protect property rights, third world countries are rife with corruption, those with money pay off and buy off those in power, and everyone else is denied any means to build their own capital. Socialism for the rich could be just another name for good ole fashioned Latin American Mercantilism.


Will we soon have land invasions like they do every day in Latin America?

funny
This is not socialism for the rich; it’s the free market in action. Had the government moved to protect the rights of the people in these examples, it would have been socialism. It truly is funny how Sowell contradicts everything he previously proclaimed and his sycophants gobble it up. If he cast sand on the ground and claimed it was grain, would you peck at that as well? He’s not suggesting that the rich (gasp!) live by different rules than the rest of us, is he? Or that we should oppose such actions? Why that would be advocating socialism, the dreaded tool of the left. No, he is saying that Democrats/liberals are hypocrites. That’s not only old hat, he’s done it so much that he’s become infected with the disease himself.

fergie response.
and god bless you in your effort for being the first human to ever turn back time for an entire nation. my analogy with france remains correct. you have a hopeless dream which needs to be replaced with a dream that can work. bail bail bail. if you were wanted the usa would treat you that way.

MikeR
You are clearly not familiar with the example in Florida that Dr. Sowell is citing. This is an example of eminate domain abuse. The GOVERNMENT is taking the land. The people refused to sell, so the rich in this case used the power of the government to seize the land and "redistribute" it so that they could get higher taxes, for the "public good". Under a pure free market system, those that wanted to buy the land would have to offer a higher price or move elsewhere. This is indeed socialism.

MikeR
You have an entirely confused understanding of what constitutes a "free market."

Free markets depend, first and foremost, on property rights. Eminent Domain abuses violate property rights in the most egregious way, by using governmental authority and the point of a gun. In this model, the free market concept is short-circuited before it ever gets going.

Your socialist leanings are amusing, but you should really educate yourself on what you blather about before you blather.

David M
Businesses don't harm people?! Come on now what Nirvana do you live in? There's no guarantee in life that harm will not come to anyone, through any given means. There's two basic kinds of businesses, Free Market and Mercantilist, those that succeed by satisfying the customer, and those that run to the government for protection, bail outs, and government granted monopolies. There are two kinds of posible monopolies, Free Market monopolies, which are exceedingly rare and extremely difficult to sustain for any long period of time, competition being fierce in a Free Market, and GOVERNMENT protected MERCANTILIST monopolies, which can last for centuries no matter how corrupt and inefficient.

Just because it's a business doesn't make it productive. Adam Smith said some of Capitalism's biggest enemies are businessmen, those that once established run to the government to keep everyone else out.

The Free Market is not Nirvana, life on earth is never Nirvana, it's all risk, and the only thing certain is death, BUT the Free Market is the best we can do, in a world both beautiful and terrible.

SUPPLY-SIDE ECONOMICS
George Bush’s $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich has been a disaster for average Americans. Supply-side (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.

Previous U.S. recessions have been cured with only $200 billion in tax cuts targeted to the middle class, because the consumer (the great middle class) spends that tax cut and primes the economic pump. But George Bush has raised the debt that your children and grandchildren will have to pay from almost $6 trillion to almost $9 trillion for this current recovery, which is uniquely without wage gains, and which has shrunk the middle class that makes America strong and great.

Corporations (the supply side) are now loaded with cash, but there’s no place to spend it because they don’t see any demand. So many corporations are using that cash to buy back their stock -- WOW, isn’t supply side wonderful in how it fulfills America’s needs? As the rich-poor divide increases, we’re headed toward previous shining examples of trickle-down economics: South America of the recent past and feudalism in the Middle Ages (South America and feudalism also had no wage gains).

"Giveaways"
I love it how lefties always call it a "giveaway" when the government allows people to keep more of the money that they themselves earned.

Kinda like waking up in your house which has been burglarized while you slept, finding that they didn't steal the 40" projection TV, and calling upstairs, "Hey honey! Someone gave us a TV last night!"

MikeR is so wrong!
The government taking your property is not anything close to "free market in action". That is one of the most imbecilic statements I have ever heard. The basis of a free market society is individual property ownership, period. I wish that the mamby-pamby nuts in NH had had the cojones to take Justice Souter's home when they had the chance to teach that socialist a lesson in democracy. The liberal rant about taxes for the rich is a red herring of the worst kind as Dr Sowell stated, high income earners are usually not rich. Most "rich" don't have incomes as much as investment gains and are taxed at the lower rate. The government other money grab is the so-called need for government charity. It is charity when one gives his own money to someone less fortunate and in need. It is stealing for anyone, government included, to take your money at gun-point even if it is supposed to go to some needy people. Charity is not the business of government, the constitution states very clearly that those powers not expressly defined to the federal government are reserved for the several states. Why is this line of the constitution the most ignored, next to the second amendment?

Mike R
If the government had stepped in to protect the rights of the "PEOPLE", then you would be absolutely right, it would be socialist or pure Democracy, the Democracy of the mob, but the government would not be steping in to protect the rights of the "PEOPLE". It would be stepping in to protect INDIVIUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.

There is no such thing as the rights of the people if by that you mean the rights of the MOB. This nation wasn't intended to protect the "people" as such because "people" as well as "society" are simply abstract concepts. In reality there are only INDIVIUALS, and only indiviuals have rights qua indiviuals.

Yo Mike R
Go read what constitutes a "Free Market". Dr. Sowell has a better grasp of this than you will ever have.

Fergus Mac...."Giveaways"
Great analogy!

Thomas Sowell for _____ (fill in blank)!
Capitalism is a system designed to produce the unequal distribution of wealth - it depends so much on _individuals_ - initiative, effort, etc.

Socialism is a system designed to produce the equal distribution of poverty - since everybody gets the same, whether they work hard or not (theoretically, at least), why would anyone bother to work hard? Of course, there are a few who _run_ the system, and curiously enough, _they_ get paid very nicely. Lately, Socialism has been getting a bad reputation, so it has often been called "progressivism" - the proponents are called "Progressives".

Recognizing that, in a Socialist counttry, there will be some who don't want to accept their fair share of poverty:
Communism is, essentially, Socialism with the government pointing guns at your head.

These three definitions are usually applied to money, wages, etc, but they apply equally to real estate, or any kind of private property - the principles are the same.

alwaysaquestion
So your point is that with government's help some businesses harm people?

Well no argument here, but the answer is definitely not to curtail business but government.

JohnCitizen
Concerning GWB's $3 trillion tax cut for the rich, may I ask who you consider to be "rich"?

JohnCitizen....
The economy has expanded at over 3% for the last four years. Interest rates have been at historical lows and individual homeownership has
never been higher. The so called "tax cuts for the rich" have already paid for themselves. Despite irresponsible earmarking, entitlement spending and an expensive war, the rate of growth in the budget deficit has in fact turned
negative. The offical unemployment rate is at 4.5%, and is probaly lower than that unofficially. When I graduated from New York University in 1983, unemployment was at least 10%, the prime rate was 11%, gold was at $700 per ounce and the dollar was at all time lows against every major currency. I don't know how old you are, but we are in the best of times economically - despite the war on terror, hurricane Katrina's aftermath, and high oil prices.

Your argument exemplifies the cynical,
narcissistic, me first attitude I see all across
our country today. No one or no corporation owes
you a job or health insurance. Corporate stock buybacks by the way, are a very responsible way
of corporate management rewarding their shareholders(some of whom are middle class 401k owners). If the management can't find a better
investment, buying their own shares back indicates conviction and belief in their own business plan while protecting their shareholders.

P.S. I am currently umnemployed, but not worried.

JohnCitizen
GW's tax cut has resulted in INCREASED revenues. The deficit is a result of out of control spending, not a decrease in funding. If the goal of the socialist demoncrats was really to help the poor, then they would realize that EVERY tax cut has resulted in increased revenues to the gov't coffers.

Also, as Cedjan pointed out, earlier, it is not the governments job to redistribute wealth or "moderate income disparities." It is YOUR job to get off YOUR can and do something about YOUR problem. I know I am trying.
If I can help someone else, I will. But I resent being told I have to at the point of a gun. Robin Hood was a common thug!

Redhead & FergusMacLennan et al.
Does the sand taste good? Yes, I have socialist leanings. That’s why I advocate preventing what’s happening to, as Sowell calls them, the “unwashed masses”. This has put me at odds with Sowell and his followers in the past. Now, to my surprise, I find Sowell and his appreciation society saying what I’ve said all along. The only twist is how the message is manipulated to indict liberals. The rich and powerful, no matter what their leanings, live by different rules then the rest of us. This has been true throughout history. In this case, the few are not employing socialism. They are manipulating the market and the system to achieve what they want at the expense of the many. Yes, I understand that this on not true ‘free market’ action, but it is very close. I stretch the truth to be sarcastic, but I stand by the belief that nothing around here is more sacred than the word of Sowell. As his mind slips ever further from the great economist he once was, I look forward to your stringent defense of anything he says.

David M
My argument is that in the Free Market, indiviuals great and small have free choice and free will, as in fact they certainly do, no economic system can change that. Businessmen no less and no more than anyone else can commit fraud, evils, as well as stupidities, and blunders, this is not an argument for government intervention, on the contrary, to try and present Capitalism as a flawless Garden of Eden is to concede to a fundamental tenet of Communism or Socialism; that somehow, someway, the Garden of Eden, the eradication of scarcity, the eradication of evil, the eradication of just pure luck, the fickle finger of fate, is somwhere around the corner, well it isn't and never will be, we live on earth and scarcity, and evil, and just simple bad luck will always be with us, neither Communism nor Capitalism can change that.

And Mike R, this is not an argument that businessmen's evils should not be punished. In a free market fraud, theft, extortion, etc. should be severely punished, with blind justice, regardless of wether the perp is a businessman or not.

Jerry
You said:
"For to many years now I have watched groups like the ACLU drift away from their original intent"
You are apparently not familiar with their history. The ACLU was formed by a card carrying communist to aid in the communist takeover of this country way back when. Hence their hatred for all things Christian.

Stop drinking the koolaid, people

Tall: "The so called 'tax cuts for the rich' have already paid for themselves."

Redhead: "GW's tax cut has resulted in INCREASED revenues."

No, no, no. Please cite just one source for your statements. I know of not a single economist who claims either that the tax cuts have paid for themselves, or that the tax cuts resulted in increased revenues. Stop listening to the spin and do some research.

I recommend The Economic Report of the President, which shows the real story:

Year - revenue - spending
2000 - 2,025.5 - 1789.2
2001 - 1,991.4 - 1863.2
2002 - 1,853.4 - 2011.2
2003 - 1,782.5 - 2160.1
2004 - 1,880.3 - 2293.0
2005 - 2,153.9 - 2472.2

Since, as conservatives are quick to point out in other discussions, the economy's been expanding since a very short recession in 2001, why did it take five years for revenue under Bush to reach the 2000 level? You can stop looking for a complicated answer, there's a simple one that answers the question - lower taxes.

As for spending, well, I'll be interested to see how an increase in spending of 38% from 2000 to 2005 is spun into a failing of the Democrats.

"The offical unemployment rate is at 4.5%, and is probaly lower than that unofficially."

Um, how, exactly?



RE: JohnCitizen
You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Suply side economics is not the same as "trickle-down". That is something that economic ignoramusus call it simply because you can't figure out why you are alway wrong and we are right.

Take you Great Depression example. 10 years of Keynesian demand-side policies, and what did it get you? More depression. It wasn't until a world war ensued that the nation was brought out of the depression, no help to your demand-side tariff, tax-hiking, subsidizing policies.

As for your "$3 trillion tax giveaway to the rich", even your boy Al Franken has admitted that is a load of bull. In the opening pages of his "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them", he admits that even though the top 60% pay over 99% of the income taxes, only 85% of the tax cut was directed toward them, meaning that the bottom 40% disproportionately BENEFITTED from that cut.

Buying back stocks is a GREAT investment, and had you a clue you'd know that. Stock buybacks increase the value of the remaining stocks in the market.

And finally, the "rich-poor divide" ALWAYS increases during good economic times. Use your freakin' brain. One cannot have anything less than nothing, yet there is no limit to the maximum amount one can have. If the "rich-poor divide" decreased, then that would mean that the economy was in a freefall.

In any case, a higher and higher pecentage of people are joining the ranks of "the rich", and fewer and fewer are among "the poor". According to the US Census Bureau, the percentage of people earning more than $75,000 (in 2005 dollars) rose to 28.3% (up from 24.4% in 1995) while the percentage of people who earned less than $25,000 (in 1995 dollars) fell to 27.1% (down from 28.9% in 1995).

Mike R, ure definitely unto...
something, I have reservations about Dr. Sowell too. But not because of any leaning towards Socialism on my part, but because I'm an advocate of Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian School of Economics. Thomas Sowell seems to be an advocate of Capitalism, yet he's very close to Milton Friedman and the Monetarists, and sometimes sounds more like a Keynesian "light", as in light beer. Does anyone know where Dr. Sowell stands on the Gold Standard or the seperation of money and state? I know exactly where Walter Williams stands on this, but with Thomas Sowell I don't.

Redhead
Good point, except for one detail: Robin Hood stole from the government.

MikeR
"Free Market"? How in the world do you look at eminent domain and see a free market? When the seller is forced to "sell" at gunpoint, how is he free?

The Liberal Lie
Has always been, "Tax cuts for the Rich".

When in fact.. Tax cuts are really for the poor. The more money you make, the more you pay taxes is true.. But who is hurt more by paying taxes?.. It's ALWAYS THE POOR. Those who make the least the least amount of money are always hurt more by paying taxes. The rich make so much money the can afford taxes.. NOT THE POOR.
(You don't need to be a math wiz to figure it out, but I'm amazed that people just don't "get it").

Socialism is designed to DRIVE OUT THE POOR.. and move the middle class incomes INTO poverty by paying more & more taxes. The Rich will pay more in taxes.. but they have so much money.. they can afford it!.. not middle & lower income families.

The state of Michigan is a perfect example of a socialist state. Taxes are so high, and unemployment is so high that people are leaving in droves.

New Orleans is also an example of a socialist city:... Filled with poor people because it has been run by Socialist Democrats for 60 years.

Socialism is the biggest lie of the 20th century:

http://spruce.flint.umich.edu/~mjperry/socialism.htm



MikeR
"In this case, the few are not employing socialism. They are manipulating the market and the system to achieve what they want at the expense of the many."

A small correction: They are manipulating the GOVERNMENT and the system to achieve what they want at the expense of the many. Socialism in action.

"The rich and powerful, no matter what their leanings, live by different rules then the rest of us. This has been true throughout history."

This is true. This will always be true. Dr. Sowell's point is that the rich are using the government and socialist laws to enact their wishes. This was also John Stossel's point in his recent column.

The evil rich and powerful that you hate are driving many of the laws and programs that you desire. It may be a matter of "The ends justifies the means" for you, but I don't think that you have the same end in mind.

Capitalism can level the playing field like no governmental program can. At least under the free market, you can vote every day with every dollar. You have the power.

Under your system, the current system, nothing is more powerful than than the government, and those within it.

Tax cut for the wealthy?
JohnCitizen writes:
SUPPLY-SIDE ECONOMICS
George Bush’s $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich has been a disaster for average Americans. Supply-side (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.
==============================
Tell that to Ireland that used tax cuts on the wealthy and business and investment while leaving the tax rate at 20% on workers. Those tax cuts triggered a 20 year boom that took the nation from welfare nation to 2nd wealthiest in Europe reducing debt from 120% of GDP to under 30% while raising workers wages 325% from 1/2 ours to over ours by $1.30 an hour (Bureau of labor statistics ave. mfg. wage) Tell that to all the other low tax on wealthy and business nations that are seeing business and investment flock to them. 25% of all money invested by the U.S. in Europe over the last decade went to Ireland.

You also wrote:

Previous U.S. recessions have been cured with only $200 billion in tax cuts targeted to the middle class, because the consumer (the great middle class) spends that tax cut and primes the economic pump. But George Bush has raised the debt that your children and grandchildren will have to pay from almost $6 trillion to almost $9 trillion for this current recovery, which is uniquely without wage gains, and which has shrunk the middle class that makes America strong and great.
========================================

The problem with tax cuts on the middle class this time, and they were huge too, is that while the wealthy invest their wealth (overseas often now that the U.S. isn't a good place to invest) the middle class spent their tax cuts on Chinese goods at Walmart further fueling the growth in Asia where investors have to go if they want a good return on their investments in manufacturing. The U.S. manufacturng base has been leaving for 50 years due to socialism's redistribution of wealth policies. Evey decade of the 40 years democrats controlled Congress they left. Why if democrat policies are so good did they leave?

Clinton? How good was he?
quote:
Nondurable manufacturing employment peaked at 7.9 million workers in January 1995. Components that peaked under Clinton included: food and kindred products (October 1995); textile mill products (November 1994); printing and publishing (May 1998); and rubber and miscellaneous plastics (February 2000). Many of these jobs were once concentrated in the South.

Durable manufacturing peaked at 11.2 million workers in April 1998. Components that peaked under Clinton included: lumber and wood (February 2000); furniture and fixtures (July 2000); primary metals (January 1998); fabricated metals (July 2000); industrial machinery and equipment (March 1998); electronic and other electrical equipment (November 2000); transportation equipment (October 1998); instruments and related products (March 1998); and miscellaneous manufacturing (April 1998). Some of the largest durables goods employment is in the upper Midwest.
http://nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/comment-kaza051603.asp
==========================

Remember that is job growth rates, not employment but it predicts the future and in this case was what experts were saying was proof of a coming recession that was predicted before Bush ever ran for office and that was growing even while he was running. Remember there is a 2 to 3 year lag factor on policies that affect business. A tax increase gets short term gains and long term losses. A tax cut if done right, that encourages investment, like Ireland did, causes short term tax revenue declines and long term gains.

Also, almost all business and even most tax on the wealthy is passed on to the consumer and adds compliance cost to the formula which is why hidden tax in a loaf of bread is about 32%.

You also wrote:

Corporations (the supply side) are now loaded with cash, but there’s no place to spend it because they don’t see any demand. So many corporations are using that cash to buy back their stock -- WOW, isn’t supply side wonderful in how it fulfills America’s needs? As the rich-poor divide increases, we’re headed toward previous shining examples of trickle-down economics: South America of the recent past and feudalism in the Middle Ages (South America and feudalism also had no wage gains).
===============================

We are definitely headed for hard times, just like France if both parties continue to use socialism's tax policies and they are doing that. A millionaire a day is leaving France and taking their invesment money with them which is why France's unemployment rate is rising and they are filing complaints that Ireland's low taxes are "unfair competition."
quote:
High-tax nations such as France are upset
that Ireland has lowered tax rates. They argue that low tax rates are a
form of "unfair" competition.
http://oregonmag.com/IrishEconomy.htm
=================================

What corporations are doing "isn't fair" and they weren't designed to be "fair" but to make a profit for their shareholders and owners. When we came out of WWII we were about the only intact nation selling to the world and we could raise prices and cover all the benefits we wanted. That no longer is the case. Nations around the world are now competing with us and they don't offer those beneifts and American Consumers have no loyalty to American business, only price. No American company that has to compete in the world market can, under socialism.

American consumers are buying products that come from companies that have,
lower healthcare costs
lower insurance costs
lower tax rates
lower regulation costs
lower compliance costs
lower wages
lower benefit packages
lower energy costs
lower environmental regulations.

None of that is fair but it is reality and the American consumers are going to buy from those companies, not U.S. Companies. Do U.S. companies take advantage of workers? Of course they do but workers have a choice if they have the skills to work someplace else and most can if they return the principles this nation was built on of individual responsibility to get the skills you can market to the highest bidder. Michigan for Aug. has seasonably adjusted 7.1% unemployment while Arizona, a right to work state with one of the highest illegal immigration populations had 3.6% for the same month. We have jobs and shortage of workers and Michigan has workers but a shortage of jobs because of manufacturing's inability to compete with right to work states. Auto mfg. is actually huge but not in the north any more. One of the largest insources of jobs has been the auto parts and supply industry but in the south for Toyota, Honda, and Nissan because they can compete with imports and also make huge profits compared to GM and Ford in socialist union states.

States that are offering tax cuts and ememptions for business and investment are taking the jobs away from the north just as nations that offer lower taxes and costs of production are taking them away from the U.S. and any other high business and investment tax nation.

Bush's tax cuts were not nearly as much as they should have been on investment and business but they were all the socialist leadership of the Democratic party would allow and thus, we will end up in the long run like France because of those socialist policies. Our economy is very fragile but it has nothing to do with Bush but rather, 50 years of socialism that can't compete with capitalist China.

Neither party is leading this nation out of socialism because "we the people" don't want to be led out of it in enough of a majority to influence a split Congress. Republicans may have the majority but no party has control that can't block a filibuster and the Republicans haven't been able to do that thanks to the RINO's.

NRAlifer
You always make me laugh. Thanks for contributing to my health program.(A merry heart doeth good like medicine)

Thomas Sowell beacon of light
Tax cuts did result in revenue increases. What brought the revenue down through the interim years was the attack on 9/11 on our cities and stock market center. Bush's failure to veto any spending is to his detriment. But the tax cuts are here to stay permenantly. And Social Security privatization is coming too.

Rich liberal socialists propel Eminent Domain abuse.

more sage advice from a voice of reason
Gang,
I'm a big fan of Dr. Sowell and wish more people in positions of power would take his message to heart.

To FergusMacLennan:
Thanks Guy. Donaldd was trying to twist the intent of the article. I think you showed the error in his attempt at logic.

On the prescription drug plan, he did get it partially right. My mom was adversely affected by the plan. She's a lifelong employee of one of the big phone companies and part of her retirement was continued health coverage for life. Not bad. She had a low co-pay on prescription drugs too. However, when the prescription drug plan went into affect her insurer was allowed to cancel that part of her insurance and force her to enroll in the federal plan. Now she still has drug coverage, but not quite as good as before. And we the people have to pay for her meds rather than the company she retired from.

Tax cuts increase tax revenues
I really hate it when conservatives use the argument that tax cuts increase revenue. Is this true? Likely so, but it's certainly not a universal truth. There is, to be certain, an optimal taxation level. If our tax rates are currently above it then tax cuts will increase revenues. If we're below it, then tax cuts will diminish revenues.

But doesn't this line of argumentation miss the point? Aren't tax cuts good in themselves, no matter what they do to government revenues? The point is that it is our money - mine and yours. The government should only be taking our money if that have a pretty good reason to do so. Some taxation is necessary, but the logic behind it is not to maximize government revenues, but to take only as much as is absolutely necessary for the accomplishing of those few things that actually are the right and proper constitutional duties of government. By the time the Laffer curve comes into play, I think that we conservatives have already lost.

baseballdr you're right on the money!
We don't live in a Capitalist country, we live in an extremely mixed economy, part Socialism, part Mercantilism, and the Capitalist part keeps slowly eroding. Kelo vs. New London being another historic blow, if not the death knell to American Capitalism. We're perpetually tittering on the brink of complete Socialism or Fascism because so few Americans understand what Capitalism actually is, that it has never fully existed in the USA, that the Constitution from it's inception had fatal flaws, Slavery and Emminent Domain being two glaring ones, and the closest the US came to Capitalism, was between 1790 and 1860. Even in that imperfect form it worked wonders and in today's extremely broken down form, it's remnants still work wonders don't they? As can be attested by the creation, of television, the microchip, etc.

But we don't live in a Capitalist country, that needs to be said often, so that blame for the catastrophes of a mixed economy, such as the Great Depression, won't be blamed on the greed of free market businessmen, but on the meddling of Aristocratic Socialist wanabe Emperors like FDR, and the arbitrary, politically motivated manipulation of the money supply by that privately owned, government protected monopoly and cartel, the Federal Reserve.

Most Americans if introduced to the concept that money could and should be a privately created product, just like milk or bread(not that milk or bread are privately created anymore, with all the government subsidies and price controls farmers receive) are flabergasted, money to them is something only a governement can create. But would you trust a politically connected and motivated government bread and milk commitee to produce healthy and sound bread or a car or a house? If government fouls up whatever economic product it undertakes to create, why do people trust it with the creation of sound and healthy money?! You're letting the proverbial fox into the henhouse!


Old Man, excellent
rather long, obviously, but only because you went into such detail.

Thank you. I liked the Irish example, too - very illuminating. Now if we can just get a majority in Washington, DC, to take a good look at this....... Thanks again.

WITHOUT PROPERTY RIGHTS
THERE ARE NO HUMAN RIGHTS

What is so hard to understand?
Elitist environmentalists have worked very hard to make their religion the law of the land. They are infiltrating our schools with what sounds good on the surface...the need t protect the environment. Unfortunately that is not the need for recycling, conserving water, etc, it is why ranchers need to be eliminated, the need to keep vehicles out of the forests, etc. In other words they are preparing these kids for the idea that enviros will dictate land use, and where we can live.
What the kids are never told is that many of these folks with so much concern are rich enough to won more than one huge home, some of them use more of the earth's resources that half a dozen ordinary families.
The big push to get ranchers off the land is a real concern, kids are being taught that ranchers prevent wildlife from getting needed food. I know this is true because my grand kids tell me some of the stuff they are taught, and it happens when they are too young to know the truth. Fortunately we live in an area where I or their parents can take them along country roads in the winter or even in the evening to see wildlife grazing in the ranchers private pastures.

Confusion?
So, because a business can use a statist government to buy favors for itself, it is proof that business is inherently bad, not ulimited government.

By the same logic, one could look at a history of the Gestapo, or the SS as a whole, and argue that police forces are inherently evil.

Yes, in a government which does not protect individual rights, unscrupulous individuals will use government favoritism to enrich themselves. the answer is not to change the government to unfairly help the "poor" rather than the "rich", but to make sure the government treats all equally. (And respects their rights, including property-- a right that most "civil rights" groups seem to forget.)

One more correction
To correct one other error, taxes on inheritance and "high wages" very rarely hit the wealthy, or even the moderately well-to-do. Many very wealthy have no "income" at all. Rather a trust or corporation takes in profits on their behalf. (This is not a trick just for the rich. My wife will pay no inheritance taxes as her parents established a trust, and they are not even close to rich.)

Actually the heavy taxes on inheritance and "income" tend to strike two groups (1) those too poor to take advantage of the loopholes and (2) those who fail to adequately prepare to avoid those taxes. In other words, the liberal position is "tax the poor and unprepared" not "soak the rich", whatever they may claim to make themselves feel better.

Socialism for the rich
Thomas Sowell is an amazing American. If he was to ever run for President, he would have my vote. He has a clear, rational view of America and it's principles.

Keep writing, Thomas. Liberals everywhere can use emotional responses and try to brainwash the masses, but your rational, fact-filled writing will be what is remembered.

Liberal trolls got pwned!
Quite a few liberal trolls got seriously pwned on this thread/blog! Great reply post to the non-liberals! And a great column by Sowell as well!

Sowell and Walter Williams should run for President/VP. Now that is a ticket I could get on board with! Or start a legit 3rd party of true conservatives! RINOs like McCain need not apply!

Gee jander
They sure did. Tell me, was it the elves in your toy chest that beat the trolls or did you use your army men?

I don’t know that liberals are taking part in this discussion as much as different parts of the conservative movement. Or does the very act of disagreeing with Sowell or any of his devotees automatically make one a liberal?

Bones
Well said, my friend. We should not even be talking about whether a particular tax rate maximizes tax revenue. That should not be the goal of fiscal policy. I agree with you 100%.

However, the Laffer curve, and discussion thereof, serves two very important purposes. First, it gives the rationale for backing away from the confiscatory tax rates that we STILL labor under, despite massive tax rate cuts by Reagan and Bush. Once we get down to the revenue-maximizing rates, THEN we can talk about what is a JUST and FAIR tax rate.

Second, it illustrates the absurdity of Democrats. They are so hellbent on punishing the "rich", that they would willingly forego the increased revenue that could be obtained through lower income tax rates, just for the sake of taking more money from the people that do the most to advance our economy.

Sorry, folks, but I think George has the right idea. If you have money, if you are a hard worker, if you are willing to invest in the economy of your nation and your people, make your nation and your people some other nation and people. Some nation and some people that will APPRECIATE the fact that you are providing jobs and goods and services. Some nation that won't PUNISH you for doing so. I don't know that I would go to Nicaragua, but I'd definitely leave the US. I'm as patriotic as the next person, but my patriotism is for a nation that no longer exists on this continent. A nation that celebrated hard work, success, and entrepeneurship, rather than punishing it.

Regards,
Trevor

Marion
It doesn't have to be a big ranch. I've been living on a small farm in Michigan for the past six years. (21 acres)

Our first winter, in January, we saw white-tailed deer, sometimes as many as 30 at a time, grazing the corn stalk stubble left in our neighbor's field. In our state, you can tell roughly how far north or south a deer lived, just by the taste of the venison: if it's gamey, it lived farther north and ate whatever it could find in the woods; if it tastes just like beef, then it lived farther south and ate mostly farmers' corn.

Just east of that field, there was, and still is a patch of woods - where the deer like to sleep, and where we also often see wild turkeys. We also see wild geese, pheasants, rabbits, raccoons, skunks, and small snakes. There's a drainage ditch across our land, with frogs, turtles, and crayfish. Who says "No wildlife"??? Tell them to open their eyes!! On my way to/from work, I see at least one deer on or near the road almost every week, and usually two or three at a time.

The Power of ENVY
Economists Daniel John Zizzo of Oxford University and Andrew Oswald of Warwick University wrote a paper entitled "Are People Willing to Pay to Reduce Other's Incomes?" (I am not sure where the study was ultimately published, but it was presented to a seminar at Royal Holloway University of London and to the "Social Interactions and Economic Behavior" conference in Paris on December 16-18, 1999. A copy of the paper is available by emailing Professor Zizzo at daniel.zizzo@economics.ox.ac.uk.)

This paper studies utility interdependence in the laboratory. Their "aim was to see whether people dislike other individuals’ wealth sufficiently that they would be willing to pay some of their own money to reduce it."

The conclusion of the paper sums up their results of their experiment as follows:

"We construct a laboratory experiment in which the subjects earn money by betting or by the means of undeservedly assigned gifts. Subjects are then told the experiment is finishing and offered a last decision. They are anonymously allowed to eliminate part or the whole of other subjects' money. To do this, they have to pay a price (that is, give up some of their own cash for each dollar of other people’s money that they destroy). We vary the price from one set of subjects to another. The underlying idea of the experiment is to try to test for, and be able to parameterize the nature of, envy or concern-for-fairness.

"We find evidence of significant burning. Two thirds [70%] of our subjects spend their own money to hurt other people. Our experiment measures the dark side of human nature.

"... We had expected low prices to be successful in dissuading people from reducing other individuals’ money holdings; but our expectations were proved wrong. The decision of whether to burn does not appear to be sensitive to the price. There is a strong correlation between wealth, or rank, and the amounts by which subjects are burnt: a majority of the subjects, especially undeservedly disadvantaged, relatively poor people, appear to be rank egalitarian.

"We demonstrate that rank egalitarianism is driven by concerns about desert rather than simply by relative payoffs. This is particularly true for undeservedly disadvantaged subjects. For undeservedly advantaged subjects, reciprocity may also be salient; they expect to be burnt and want to reciprocate. In our data, people’s concerns about desert appear stronger than their reciprocity concerns.

Liberals fit the experimental results perfectly. They would prefer that everyone were equally destitute than that some were mega-rich while others are only rich.

The Power of ENVY -- 2
The paper may be downloaded at http://ideas.repec.org/p/wrk/warwec/568.html.

Movwater definitions
Bravo! If I begin what appears to become a long debate on an issue, I try to gain a clear understanding of certain terms that will be discussed. I have found that much time is wasted because debaters have different definitions of common terms. By understanding exactly what the other party has in mind when they use a word or phrase, for example, capitalism or "the rich", at least I know how to frame the rest of the argument.

I disagree movwater
Mises argued you could never have a truly free market if government were allowed to have a monopoly on money. Mises argued that money was as a much a commodity to be produced by the free market as any other commodity. The government's role regarding money in a free market is to be the same as with any other privately produced commodity to prosecute for fraud, and theft, but not to be in the business of creating the product. Mises argued firmly and convincingly in his "Theory of Money and Credit" that there must be a total seperation of public finance from the banking industry. That there should be no central bank to service the desires of the government's treasury department. He advocated a policy of free banking.

Friedman argues that money should be firmly controlled by the governement, government can and should have a monopoly on the creation of money, and that the Gold Standard is unneccesary since the politically appointed Wizard of Oz at a central bank can approximate the virtues of the Gold Standard. Really? The Monetarists argue that a little controlled inflation never hurt no one. Really?


I've read most of Dr. Sowell's books but do not recall reading his thoughts on a pure 100% Gold Standard, or his thoughts on the seperation of money and state, or his thoughts of Monetarism versus free banking. I would LOVE to hear his thoughts on the Austrian school and in particular his thoughts on the theories of Mises!


Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams

Unfortunately would not be able to do much to change the course of the country as elected officials unless the country were already ready and willing to move in their direction. They coudn't even get elected if they came out honestly with their ideas to the whole of the country as politicians in search of office. A politician is a chauffer, he gets hired or fired according to how well he satisfies his role as chauffer.

The two party system is more than adequate, either party will eventually accept the ideas, and directions the electorate have given it as a mandate. Clinton co-opted conservative ideas when he promised to end welfare as we know it, he would never have and could never have pushed that reform unless the electorate was ripe to accept it, and that depends on the dissemination of ideas and the introduction of ideas to the American people. When a tipping point or consensus is reached by the populace it reaches the ear of the chauffers for hire and they drive the car accordingly.

Thomas Jefferson would have abolished slavery if he could have, but he coudn't, the union would not have come into existence or survived, the populace was not ready to accept and believe that indiviual rights also included slaves.


Utopian?
What's so utopian about the freedom to privately produce gold and silver based money? Government was given the power over the postal service too, I suppose that makes U.P.S. and Federal Express a crazy utopian dream as well.

And of course gold and silver are so much more arbitrary than paper, it's so easy to counterfeit gold and silver. Where on earth are we going to find more paper?

And of course one could never accuse the Nobel Prize Committee of playing politics, oh no, not after it awarded Yasser Arafat the prize for peace.

Thank You for clearing it all up for me movwater, at least I still have Walter Williams and Congressman Ron Paul to believe in.

A 100% pure Gold Standard

Would not be the means by which to evaluate a currency, it would be THE currency. A currency doesn't belong to a "nation" , no more than a car or a piece of mail belongs to a "nation", currency in a free market belongs to it's indiviual owners.

beowulfe wrote:

"Take you Great Depression example. 10 years of Keynesian demand-side policies, and what did it get you? More depression. It wasn't until a world war ensued that the nation was brought out of the depression, no help to your demand-side tariff, tax-hiking, subsidizing policies.

You really know nothing about economics, do you? If you actually read some economic history of the time, you'd find that Keynesian theory was validated by the events of the depression, and that it was a huge Keynesian stimulus (government borrowing and demand during the war) that pulled the country out of the depression. I'd love to hear what you think are the tenets of Keynesian theory.

"In any case, a higher and higher pecentage of people are joining the ranks of "the rich", and fewer and fewer are among "the poor". According to the US Census Bureau, the percentage of people earning more than $75,000 (in 2005 dollars) rose to 28.3% (up from 24.4% in 1995) while the percentage of people who earned less than $25,000 (in 1995 dollars) fell to 27.1% (down from 28.9% in 1995)."

Relevance here is suspect, but whatever. These numbers represent about six years of Clinton (1995-2001, since the first Bush budget was 2002) and four years of Bush. How bout we look at the numbers that way?

Year : %-25k : $+75k
2005 : 24.8% : 29.9%
2001 : 24.6% : 30.4%
1995 : 26.8% : 25.9%

(don't know why your numbers are different from mine - here's my source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p60-231.pdf page 32)

So, putting the table into words, using the data you chose, there were fewer "rich" people, and more "poor" people, after four years under Bush.

But so what?

.

earth2moonbat wrote:

"The state of Michigan is a perfect example of a socialist state. Taxes are so high, and unemployment is so high that people are leaving in droves."

BS. Well, the part about the taxes, anyway. Michigan ranks 22nd out of 50 in taxpayers' total state and local burden at 10.1% (0.1% more than the median for the country), according to The Tax Foundation (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/index.html).

"New Orleans is also an example of a socialist city:... Filled with poor people because it has been run by Socialist Democrats for 60 years."

Really. So why, in 2003, were the poverty rates higher in places like Tallahassee, Fresno, Athens GA, Lafayette IN, Yakima WA, and Auburn AL?

Source: National Association of Planning Councils (NAPC)

.

Old Man wrote (a lot):

"Tell that to Ireland that used tax cuts on the wealthy and business and investment while leaving the tax rate at 20% on workers.

In Ireland, the marginal tax rate on income for a two-earner couple is 20% on the first 64,000 euro ($81,370), and 42% on income above that.

"Those tax cuts triggered a 20 year boom that took the nation from welfare nation to 2nd wealthiest in Europe reducing debt from 120% of GDP to under 30%"

Note that the debt has actually increased, but GDP has increased much more. The Irish economy was a shambles and had no way to go but up, so putting all of the credit on tax cuts is not accurate. The devaluation of the currency in 1986 helped. The cutting of government spending helped. The fact that Ireland has a highly educated, english-speaking population helped.

"while raising workers wages 325% from 1/2 ours to over ours by $1.30 an hour."

Again, the economy was in incredibly bad shape; 18% unemployment will tend to drive wages way down.

"the middle class spent their tax cuts on Chinese goods at Walmart further fueling the growth in Asia where investors have to go if they want a good return on their investments in manufacturing."

And those consumers got more for their dollars because goods manufactured in Asia cost less. So consumers win.

"The U.S. manufacturng base has been leaving for 50 years due to socialism's redistribution of wealth policies."

BS. Manufacturing has grown elsewhere because of relative costs. If it costs less to make TVs in Japan, or Korea, or Singapore, and ship them here, then manufacturers will do so. And American consumers win because they spend less on televisions than they would if they were made here. Again, consumers win.

"Evey decade of the 40 years democrats controlled Congress they left. Why if democrat policies are so good did they leave?"

BS. Manufacturing has increased over every three-year period since 1965. Do some research (EROP).

"Clinton? How good was he?"

Wait a second - you're telling me that any loss of jobs prior to 1994 was the fault of Congress, but any loss of jobs from 1995-2000 was Clinton's fault? Does your partisanship keep you from even seeing your own double-standard?

"Nondurable manufacturing employment peaked at 7.9 million workers in January 1995."

The Economic Report of the President puts that number at 6.9 million in 1995, down from the peak of 7.2 million in 1979.

"Remember that is job growth rates, not employment..."

Wrong. Those numbers were total employment.

"Remember there is a 2 to 3 year lag factor on policies that affect business."

Not at all. Some impact immediately, some are much longer term.

"A tax increase gets short term gains and long term losses. A tax cut if done right, that encourages investment, like Ireland did, causes short term tax revenue declines and long term gains."

Generally yes, though there are theoretical exceptions.

"Also, almost all business and even most tax on the wealthy is passed on to the consumer..."

Pretty broad statement. How exactly do you reach the conclusion that "most tax on the wealthy is passed on to the consumer"?

"...and adds compliance cost to the formula which is why hidden tax in a loaf of bread is about 32%."

What adds compliance cost? Generally, this term used to describe not taxes, but government regulation.

"We are definitely headed for hard times, just like France if both parties continue to use socialism's tax policies and they are doing that."

Maybe I should start calling you an anarchist. If you think both parties are socialists, that would likely be a good description for you.

"No American company that has to compete in the world market can, under socialism."

Oh come on. Please back up that assertion.

"Michigan for Aug. has seasonably adjusted 7.1% unemployment while Arizona, a right to work state with one of the highest illegal immigration populations had 3.6% for the same month. We have jobs and shortage of workers and Michigan has workers but a shortage of jobs because of manufacturing's inability to compete with right to work states."

New for you - ain't no auto manufacturing plants in Arizona. Surprising, if the cost of doing business is so much lower there, hmmm?

"Auto mfg. is actually huge but not in the north any more. One of the largest insources of jobs has been the auto parts and supply industry but in the south for Toyota, Honda, and Nissan because they can compete with imports and also make huge profits compared to GM and Ford in socialist union states."

I'm no fan of unions.


"States that are offering tax cuts and ememptions for business and investment are taking the jobs away from the north just as nations that offer lower taxes and costs of production are taking them away from the U.S. and any other high business and investment tax nation."

So?

"Bush's tax cuts were not nearly as much as they should have been on investment and business but they were all the socialist leadership of the Democratic party would allow and thus, we will end up in the long run like France because of those socialist policies."

You make me laugh, you little anarchist.

"Our economy is very fragile but it has nothing to do with Bush but rather, 50 years of socialism that can't compete with capitalist China."

Right. We're much less free economically than China.

"Neither party is leading this nation out of socialism because "we the people" don't want to be led out of it in enough of a majority to influence a split Congress."

Socialism. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

That's like three times today I've gotten to quote Inigo!

"Republicans may have the majority but no party has control that can't block a filibuster and the Republicans haven't been able to do that thanks to the RINO's."

Civics lesson: cloture requires 60 votes - the Republicans have 55 Senators. Why are you blaming so-called "RINOs" when even if they were monolithically partisan you still would not have enough for cloture?

Wow, that was long.

NEConservative

"Tax cuts did result in revenue increases. What brought the revenue down through the interim years was the attack on 9/11 on our cities and stock market center."

This sounds an awful lot like "I voted for the $87 before I voted against it." Do facts not matter to you? Revenue went down from 2000 to 2001, from 2001 to 2002, and from 2002 to 2003. In 2005, it finally regained 2000 levels. What part don't you understand?

"Rich liberal socialists propel Eminent Domain abuse."

Again, who are these socialists you're talking about, and why would you think rich people would want socialism?

"Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" -Webster

Why again would a wealthy person want this?

.

Riviera Beach
Until two years ago, I lived in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida a city immediately adjacent to Riviera Beach mentioned by Dr. Sowell. While the philosophical reasoning Sowell uses in decrying this type of use of land is correct, I can tell of my own knowledge that in the case of Riviera Beach, a poor, working class city, made up of mostly lower class (financially speaking, of course)famlies, most of whom do not own homes, and those that do are homes of little worth, ramshackle dumps, and most live in grinding poverty, with no hope of improvement of their lives. The location of the planned demolition and building of a marina is in the very worst area of the city, mostly made up of industrial buildings and land where most building have long ago been demolished, thus any compensation given for any loss of homes will more than exceed current value and will give those persons thus relocated a chance to better their station in life. In this particular case, I can see justification for the city of Riviera Beach using the power of government to improve the area, because the way it is now, it is just an eyesore, dangerous even to drive through, high crime, a typical place where the Democrat party, in charge in that area for many years, has failed to improve the lives of these people.

Trevor wrote:

"However, the Laffer curve, and discussion thereof, serves two very important purposes. First, it gives the rationale for backing away from the confiscatory tax rates that we STILL labor under, despite massive tax rate cuts by Reagan and Bush. Once we get down to the revenue-maximizing rates..."

What a delusion. What makes you think that we're to the right of the top of the Laffer curve? Bush cuts taxes, tax revenue goes down. What could be clearer?

"I'm as patriotic as the next person, but my patriotism is for a nation that no longer exists on this continent. A nation that celebrated hard work, success, and entrepeneurship, rather than punishing it."

Enjoy your life elsewhere.

Socialism for the Rich - Thomas Sowell
MikeR and uwcharlie

And I thought eminent domain was for extreme cases only, such an absolutely urgent need for a highway for the greater benefit of easing traffic for the masses. Or to facilitate export of our products (which provide jobs for our masses) by building a new harbour for international shipping!!!

Thanks to those of you who have pointed out my confusion - its for the very very rich who need upscale waterfront housing and entertainment (for they don't need highways, they land in private helicopters) and marinas for their beautiful private yachts.

Bran

BS
"What a delusion. What makes you think that we're to the right of the top of the Laffer curve? Bush cuts taxes, tax revenue goes down. What could be clearer?"

By your own admission: "'Remember there is a 2 to 3 year lag factor on policies that affect business.'"

"Not at all. Some impact immediately, some are much longer term."

Please make up your mind.
Also, you responded to NEConservative:
"'Rich liberal socialists propel Eminent Domain abuse.'"

"Again, who are these socialists you're talking about, and why would you think rich people would want socialism?"

"Socialism: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" -Webster

"Why again would a wealthy person want this?"

Have you not heard? Wealthy people and large companies us the increased regulations to drive out smaller competitors. If you cannot see this, there is no hope for you. I also think that you fail to even grasp many of the arguments on this site. Government regulation is bad. It reduces individual freedoms. It is not the government’s job to redistribute wealth, reduce income disparities, or interfere in the free exchange of goods and services. This is not anarchy. Libertarianism. The two may be close, but not quite the same. I know you like to argue small points, but I won't make an issue of this one.

uwcharlie:
It does not matter what condition the people lived in. That is their choice. If they like it enough not to sell to someone else, they should not be forced to do so.
The great thing about the America that the founders saw was that anyone could rise from nothing and become something. Unfortunately, this is largely gone now.

alwaysquestion wrote:

"A 100% pure Gold Standard... Would not be the means by which to evaluate a currency, it would be THE currency. A currency doesn't belong to a "nation" , no more than a car or a piece of mail belongs to a "nation", currency in a free market belongs to it's indiviual owners."

You obviously have never taken even basic macroeconomics, and don't understand the role of money in a modern economy.

.

Redhead wrote:

This was a little tough to decypher:

ME:"What a delusion. What makes you think that we're to the right of the top of the Laffer curve? Bush cuts taxes, tax revenue goes down. What could be clearer?"

ME: "Some [government policies] impact [business] immediately, some are much longer term [rather than the blanket statement "policies that affect business lag by 2 to 3 years]."

YOU: "Please make up your mind."

Are you trying to claim that ALL government policies affect business in he same time frame, regardless of the type of policy?

"Wealthy people and large companies us the increased regulations to drive out smaller competitors."

News for you, pal: that's not socialism. Maybe you missed Webster's definition: "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods."

"If you cannot see this, there is no hope for you."

Sure there is! Pass the kool aid!

"I also think that you fail to even grasp many of the arguments on this site. Government regulation is bad."

What you don't seem to understand is that "bad" and "socialism" aren't the same thing.

"It reduces individual freedoms."

Welcome to civilization.

"It is not the government’s job to redistribute wealth, reduce income disparities..."

Why are you changing the subject? I thought we were talking about government regulation.

"...or interfere in the free exchange of goods and services."

Wait, there it is again. Then why, pray tell, does Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution say that "Congress shall have the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes"?

"This is not anarchy. Libertarianism. The two may be close, but not quite the same. I know you like to argue small points, but I won't make an issue of this one."

Then I will. The two aren't that close. I know libertarians, or at least Libertarians. I don't know any anarchists.

.

movwater wrote:

"Let's see: US GDP is soaring while the number of nondurable manufacturing workers decline, substantially. Hmmm! How can that be???? Do you think that perhaps the increased productivity of the American worker might just have something to do with?"

Sure, as does the continuing shift to a service-based economy domestically, as does the shift to a world economy.

In 1972, there were three times as many service jobs as manufacturing jobs in the U.S. Now, that ratio is more like 8:1. And real GDP has more than doubled.

Is it any surprise that manufacturing jobs that require a relatively low skill set and little capital investment (textiles, for example) are moving overseas? Or that the precipitous drop in communications costs would lead to call center jobs moving out of the U.S.?

This is how a market economy works.

.

Diminish the elitists' control?
If you really want to diminish the control the elite, governmental, social and economic elite, wields over the government, society, economy and laws, a good place to start is by helping enact the "Fair Tax" legislation. It will abolish, among other things, the income tax, death tax, capital gains tax, social security tax, gift tax and medicare tax.

movwater wrote:

"During the "hay day" of the European Feudal System the serf paid a total maximum tax of around 35% of family's gross earnings. When you consider the total government (local, State, and Federal) take of the average American worker's family's gross earning, perhaps those serf didn't have it so bad after all."

Thanks for the straw man. Too bad I don't have the data to really slaughter it. Do some research, though, and you should find that the average family's tax burden is about 25%-26% of gross income.

The average tax burden in the U.S. (taxes divided by GDP) is 26%. (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114505726515126546-umjqN3OmzUqtKCinFdw6PEEtvFk_20070414.html?mod=rss_free)

.

movwater

"Unfortunately, Gross Domestic Product is Not Gross Personal Income...

"Total Government Receipts as Percent of Total Personal Income 37.1%"

Nice try. Why would you limit the income side of the equation to just personal income, but not limit the tax side to just personal income tax?

Take out the 207.3 billion in corporate income tax, and half of the 652.9 billion of social security and retirement receipts paid by employers (inexact due to factors such as self-employment, but we're getting closer), and the 160.9 billion dollars of "other receipts," and personal taxes drop from 3,125.9B to 2,431.3B, and the average tax rate drops rather significantly, from 37.1% to...

28.8%

Also, it's interesting that you cherry-picked that data, using 2000 data rather than 2004, which was the latest currently available data in your source. For 2004 using the inexact-but-much-better-than-your method above, the average tax rate was...

25.8%

Look, even The Tax Foundation, which is far from liberal, says that your calculations are bogus. They claim the average total tax burden in 2000 was 33.6%, and is now 31.6% (http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/).

And, of course, we haven't even mentioned the fact that the progressive nature of our tax system means that the median family's tax burden will be lower than the average tax rate.

"So, are you saying that service jobs don't count?"

Um, no...

"Of course, there is always feather-bedding, for you anti-productivity types."

Your paranoia's caused you to miss it when I agree with you!

"No sh*t! So what's your problem? Consumers are getting too many benefits?"

Paranoia, the destroyer... I have two problems here:

1. People who throw out bogus arguments and statistics to attempt to justify their positions.

2. People who attack me for no reason.

You're oh-for-two.

.

SUPPLY-SIDE ECONOMICS
George Bush’s $3 trillion dollar tax giveaway to the rich has been a disaster for average Americans. Supply-side (trickle-down) economics is a bogus theory promoted by those who benefit from it. In a mature capitalist system, supply side never rules, it’s always the demand side of the equation that governs growth and well-being. Think about the 1930s Depression, General Motors had plenty of supply, but demand evaporated.

Previous U.S. recessions have been cured with only $200 billion in tax cuts targeted to the middle class, because the consumer (the great middle class) spends that tax cut and primes the economic pump. But George Bush has raised the debt that your children and grandchildren will have to pay from almost $6 trillion to almost $9 trillion for this current recovery, which is uniquely without wage gains, and which has shrunk the middle class that makes America strong and great.

Corporations (the supply side) are now loaded with cash, but there’s no place to spend it because they don’t see any demand. So many corporations are using that cash to buy back their stock – WOW, isn’t supply side wonderful in how it fulfills America’s needs? As the rich-poor divide increases, we’re headed toward previous shining examples of trickle-down economics: South America of the recent past and feudalism in the Middle Ages (South America and feudalism also had no wage gains).

BS Injector
When you were taking beowulfe to task for his stats on the rich ($75,000 and above) and the poor (below $25,000), you stated that you “don’t know why [his] numbers were different than mine.” I checked out the numbers at the source you cited and found that, in fact, you were both right – sort of. The numbers beowulfe cites are for “all races,” whereas the numbers you cite are for “whites only.” I would think that the more relevant measure would be the one including everybody, or “all races,” not just whites. So you are right that “whites” were very slightly worse off in 2005 than they were in 2001 (24.8% versus 24.6% below $25,000 and 29.9% versus 30.4% percent at $75,000 and above; for “all races” the figures are 27.1% vs. 26.5% below $25,000 and 28.3% vs. 28.8% at $75,000 and above). What is surprising is that the statistics are not worse given the recession Bush inherited in his first years in office, the economic dislocations attributable to the attack on 9/11 and the subsequent “war on terror,” and the Katrina hurricane devastation.

Few Zip-Locks after walkies here
As usual, Sowell's columns gather a more erudite collection of responders than most Townhall contributors do. I endorse the reference to Hernando de Soto's book(s) on capital, in particular, and enjoyed Old Man's and movwater's comments. I do not always agree with Tom Sowell, but I always look foreward to reading what he has to say.

Personally, I believe that for individuals and groups, a just society requires that all are bound to the returns on their investments. Most investments are not monitary.

stillwater wrote:

"Perhaps because the 35% charged the serfs...was their total taxation - Local, State, and Kingdom..."

The clear implication being that my number was not total taxation, which it was.

"I was merely comparing 'Apples and Apples', unlike your comparison of 'Grapes (income taxes only) and "Watermelons (GDP)'.

Hardly. Unless you mean apples to potatoes.

Look, my quickly grabbed number wasn't very good, and neither was your carefully-thought-out, cherry-picked-to-overstate-your-case number. I'm guessing my follow-on number's not that great either, but it's better than your number.

"Who do you think pays the 'corporate income tax'?"

Um, the corporations, whose income you removed when you used "Personal Income" rather than "National Income." Why do you think individuals pay the tax but don't get the income?

"Actually, your employer pays more than 50% of your FICA Tax (7.65% vs. 6.2%)."

You're just plain ignorant. Where do you get this ludicrous notion? Looks like you think only the employer pays Medicare, which is just flat wrong. Look here, sayeth the professor: http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html.

"Do you think if your employer didn't have pay this Tax for you, he would pocket it and leave your salary the same. Hardly! When an employer calculates the cost of keeping you "on the payroll", he includes your salary, benefits, and the "payroll taxes" (FICA, Medicare, FUTA and SUI) associated with employing you. If you think that the taxes your employers pays on your behalf doesn't impact your Gross Pay, you are pretty naive."

Not at all - but of course, that's not what we're talking about.

"Again, who do you think winds up paying for these 'other receipts'? The 'Tooth Fairy'?"

Since you don't know what the "other fees" are, you can't really tell me that consumers pay them, now can you? Fact is, I didn't bother to look into it, so I can't either. Most likely a combination of businesses, consumers, and tooth fairies.

"I believe the discussion centered on Bush 'horrendous' tax cuts which started in 2001. A fair presentation of the tax burden should then be the year before these tax breaks were inacted."

Actually, the discussion was regarding the absurd notion that the Bush tax cuts, have or ever will pay for themselves through increased growth. The tax burden was introduced by you for no apparent reason.

"Actually, your chosen source seems to be closer to my 37.1% than to 28.8% proving, if YOUR source is accurate, that your figures are more incorrect than mine."

Hilarious - "I'm right because you're wrong." I could just as easily have used the Center for Policy Priorities' (hardly a conservative organization) number of 16.4% for federal taxes, which would make 26.5% overall. But, to prove my point, I chose a source that not even you could assail.

And my point, obviously, was that your methodology was, well, flawed.

.

BobDoyle

I stand corrected - it was actually a table of those of hispanic origin, which I grabbed in haste. I'll dig a little more later.

Should be a lesson to all - cite your sources so folks can check up on you.

.

BS Detector


What is the role of money in a "modern" economy?

Movwater

Let us lay aside any kind of combativeness. I'm interested in knowing truth and only truth, if I can learn truth form you I gladly will, if you can learn any truth from me , I would hope you would feel the same, no matter how ignorant you may consider me, even a broken clock is accurate twice a day.

I'd like to ask this question, are you against free banking and gold and silver or precious metals as money commodities because you believe free banking and gold and silver and precious metals as moneys lead to more corruption and theft than government fiat money?

stagnant water

What we have here, ladies and gentlemen, is a person unable to admit errors.

"Note: I stated that this was the "total maximum tax of around 35% of family's gross earnings". Family earnings is Total Personal Income and not per capita GDP."

And I started with GDP as a proxy for all Americans earnings, which you disagreed with, which is fine - we can get more specific. Which you then did by choosing Total Personal Income (let's call it TPI). To get to TPI, we add and remove certain things, most notably:
* Corporate Profits and collections on assets
* Taxes on production and imports
* Social Security and Medicare taxes

But TPI has its problems as a proxy, too. Most notably, TPI does not include capital gains income, which is taxed.

But let's go with TPI anyway. You've chosen to remove corporate activities from the income side. No problem. But then you choose Total Government Receipts for the tax side. And of course, the government taxes the corporate activities that you chose to remove from the income side of the equation. And of course, capital gains are also taxed, but are not included in TPI. Do you still like that 37% number?

Additionally, note that TPI does not include contributions to social security and welfare.
(http://bea.gov/bea/regional/definitions/nextpage.cfm?key=Total%20personal%20Income)
And yet, I believe you included those as taxes. Again, your 37% number takes a hit.

So instead of personal taxes divided by personal income, you get ALL taxes divided by MOST PERSONAL income. Obviously, your number will overstate the real story. How much is in the details.

"Of course, you apparently do know the difference between Total Personal Income (the total of all family's gross earnings) and GDP or Gross Domestic Product."

Why yes, yes I do, though I suspect you meant to say that I DON'T know.

"Likewise you compare a nibulous [sic] 'taxes' with my 'total maximum tax' - including ALL TAXATION."

Gee, you got me. I surrender. I was inexact rather than blatantly wrong.

"Really!"

No kidding!

"You said: ook, even The Tax Foundation, which is far from liberal, says that your calculations are bogus. They claim the average total tax burden in 2000 was 33.6%, and is now 31.6% (http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/)."

I doubt I said "ook."

"But obliously my methodology is substantially less flawed than your methodolody if I use your chosen source as "Gosple" [sic]. After all, the difference between my "37.1%" and the Tax Foundation's "33.6%" is a mere 3.5%. However, when compared with you silly "28.8%" is off by 5%, making you methodology nearly 43% more "flawed" than mine."

As I said, I chose a source that you wouldn't be able to attack. I don't think that their number is correct. I think the CBPP's number is better, but I'm not sure. However, I KNOW, and have demonstrated, that your number is very, very wrong.

"But of course it is. FICA, Medicare, SUI and FUTA impacts most workers pay checks to the tune of over 18%..."

Right - and since those are not included in TPI - your choice of family income - they can't be included in the tax side of the equation either.

"Besides, I didn't even calculate the burden of record keeping for all these government mandates and such things a required "workers comp insurance" mandated by government which for certain job classification is more than FICA taxes."

Hey, I'm feeling generous, I'll throw you an extra 0.1%.

"[T]he "situs" of the tax is it always is paid finally by the consumer. All taxes paid by businesses are passed on to the consumer."

"Situs"? What are you, a lawyer or an accountant? Because you're definitely not an economist. It is simply not true that "all taxes paid by businesses are passed on to the consumer." You're acting as if the demand side of the equation is not influenced by an increase in price, like consumers will just accept any price increase without changing their behavior.

When price increases (such as with a tax increase on business), quantity demanded decreases - micro 101. The business will seek a new revenue- or profit-maximizing price. If demand is perfectly elastic, where consumers will buy the same quantity regardless of price, the business can pass all the additional cost on to consumers. If demand is perfectly inelastic, the reaction to a price increase is a 100% drop in quantity demanded, so the business cannot pass on any of the increase. The real world is almost always somewhere in between. The cost of production increases, reflected by a shift in the supply curve, and the market finds a new equilibrium with a lower quantity demanded and a higher price.

Here, take a quick look at this for more info:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/cda04-12.cfm

"No, as you demonstrated yourself, this string was in reference to my comparison of current total maximum tax of US working families with those paid by the Fuedal Serfs of Europe."

Which you brought up apropos of nothing. I'm sure your name is Bill or Billy or Mac or Buddy.

"As for the 'absurd notion that the Bush tax cuts, have or ever will pay for themselves through increased growth' - I believe they already are." [you mean "have"]

You believe - based on what?

OMB's Mid-Session Review indicates that the tax cuts might raise national income by a maximum 0.7 percent over the long term, which means an increase in revenue of about 0.13% of GDP (assuming 18% tax rate). The CBO estimated that making the tax cuts permanent would reduce revenue by 1.4% of GDP annually. Restating, that means that the government can recoup at most 10% of revenue lost by the tax cuts through increased growth. CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation conclude that if such tax cuts are financed by government borrowing, the damage from the borrowing more than offsets the benefit of the tax cuts.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/07msr.pdf#search=%22omb%20mid-session%20review%22
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/69xx/doc6908/12-01-10PercentTaxCut.pdf

Or perhaps you should read Greg Mankiw, former Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors under Bush. In his "Dynamic Scoring: A-Back-of-the-Envelope Guide (NBER Working Paper No. 11000)," Mankiw concludes that "In the long run, about 17 percent of a cut in labor taxes is recouped through higher economic growth. The comparable figure for a cut in capital taxes is about 50 percent."

What that means, dear friends, is that the CBO and one of the closest economic advisors the President's ever had agree, that tax cuts never even come close to paying for themselves.

"The problem with the analysis you provided with regards to Federal revenues, it is not a comparison with what the Federal government take would have been without the stimulus of these appropriate tax cuts, especially considering the economic impact of the Clinton Recession (the impact on Federal revenues of which can be seen in the 2001-02 before the Bush tax cuts had there [sic] effect), 9/11 attacks, and Natural Disasters."

[First off, I'll accept you calling it the "Clinton Recession" if you'll start calling the expansion from '92-'01 the "Clinton Expansion."]

The problem with your analysis is... wait, there is no analysis. I didn't do an analysis, and Lord knows you didn't either. We both grabbed numbers. You just grabbed worse, probably becauses of your limited understanding of economics. Tell me, what's wrong with the OMB, CBO, and Mankiw analyses?

Look, it's obvious you're not an economist. Why don't you leave the heavy lifting to people who can handle it?

.

Burlington Iowa Eminent Domain Abuse
Happening right now, Burlington Iowa passed a plan to buy and destroy the homes of over 400 low income people from a 24 acre neighborhood. They plan to spend $6 Million for the property and the demolition. They will then sell the bare land to a shopping center developer for $1 Million. They plan to use Eminent Domain if necessary to acquire all of the property.

One edge of the targeted neighborhood is along the highway that leads to a big new casino that is being built. The city carried on the plan in secret for over a year according to the Sept. 8th story in Burlington Hawkeye newspaper as they broke the news to the public.

A public hearing, followed by the unanimous City Council vote, took place on Sept. 25th, just 6 days before the new Iowa Eminent Domain law would prevent them from carrying out this plan.

There have been several related stories in the Burlington Hawkeye newspaper since 9/8. Its a shocking story.

Representation in Eminent Domain
Actually, when your property is part of a taking under eminent domain, you are not responsible for the attorneys' fees incurred while defending your property rights or in order to seek greater compensation. Any individual can avail themselves of this right under the Constitution. The gov't that is initiating the taking is ultimately responsible for your attorneys' fees. There are some firms who specialize in this type of litigation and their whole selling point for using their services is that it is 'free of charge' to you. When the suit is finally settled, they have another series of hearings in which they present their fees to the court and obtain a judgement to be paid. The only problem is that many people don't know this and believe that once the gov't acts they just have to bend over and that's it.

Gov't by the rich, of the rich and for
the rich.

American socialism is seen NOW!

It is for greedy, rich people who buy access and bribe Repubs with campaign contributions and kick backs and past govt jobs and freebees.

Repubs don't believe in competitive capitalism,
they believe in Crony Military Socialism, a la
George Bush and all the war Contractors.
Billions and Billions in no bid contracts!

Repubs are supported by the munitions
makers that depend on fear and empire
building, all the while jobs go overseas.

This is American socialism.

2 trillion dollars is the cost of Iraq!
They did not have WMDs. They did not
attack us. They were no threat to us.
But they do have 12 trillion dollars
worth of crude oil that multinational
oil monopolies want. So Bush and Cheney
are helping them out, subsidizing them
at the tax payer expense. That is
the real American Socialism.
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