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Tuesday, September 26, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
The week's revelations
by Thomas Sowell
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This past week has told us more than we wanted to know about ourselves and about our enemies.

There was far more controversy over remarks made by the Pope than over the violence unleashed by Muslims against people who had nothing to do with what the Pope said.

That our enemies do not understand the significance of free speech in a free society, where things that offend us can be denounced without indiscriminate violence, is bad enough. But that we ourselves seem headed further down the slippery slope of self-censorship is chilling.

Tolerance has been one of the virtues of western civilization. But virtues can be carried to extremes that turn them into vices. Toleration of intolerance is a particularly dangerous vice to which western nations are succumbing, both within their own countries and internationally.

Double standards are being wrapped in the mantle of morality. The drive to extend Geneva convention protection to terrorists who are not covered under the Geneva convention is one of a number of dangerous self-indulgences by people who seem to think that being morally one-up is the ultimate and survival is secondary.

Senator Lindsey Graham's comment that we are going to win in our struggle with terrorists "because we are better" was all too typical of this mindset.

It would be hard to know which would be worse -- if he said it as just some offhand political rhetoric or whether he is really fatuous enough to believe it and irresponsible enough to gamble American lives rather than extract murderous secrets from captured cutthroats.

There is already evidence from Guantanamo that the prisoners there are abusing the guards far worse than any guards have abused these prisoners. Yet our media have no interest in that and have been willing to believe every allegation by these professional terrorists, including the physical absurdity of trying to flush the Koran -- or any other book -- down a toilet.

Unfortunately, these are not just isolated lapses in judgment. It is largely the same people who have for years been more protective of criminals than of their victims who are now more protective of captured terrorists than of those who are their targets.

When such attitudes became ascendant in our courts during the 1960s, the declining trend in crime rates suddenly reversed and skyrocketed, as liberal judges created new "rights" for criminals out of thin air and called it constitutional law.

But this goes far beyond judges and far beyond our own times. The political left has been weak on protecting society from criminals for more than two centuries.

No one should be surprised that this same attitude has led to great preoccupation with trying to get captured terrorists treated more nicely.

This past week has also seen revelations about our enemies. Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez' cheap demagoguery at the United Nations was a clear sign of the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of his anti-Americanism. Surely if he had anything concrete and serious to say against this country, he would have said it.

Equally clearly, he understood that no coherent argument was necessary. All that was necessary was to tap into visceral resentments and play to the gallery of those poisoned by envy and ready to blame their own lack of achievement on somebody else.

The president of Iran was slicker but his speech at the United Nations and his artful evasions at his press conference are also revealing and should be a warning. He too is obviously playing us for fools.

Those in the United States and in other western nations who are urging dialogue with Iran are repeating the tragic mistakes of the 1930s that led to World War II. People say talk is cheap but it can be enormously costly when it becomes just a way to forestall action while an enemy nation builds up its military threat.

Since Iran is not letting the idle chatter at the U.N. delay their rush to get nuclear weapons, they are more dangerous than the Nazis were -- while we remain as gullible as those in the west who blundered into World War II and almost lost it.

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Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Absolutely right
Particularly as to the "torture" silliness.

"Senator Lindsey Graham's comment that we are going to win in our struggle with terrorists "because we are better" was all too typical of this mindset"

When I was in Nam, there was a saying that went: "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil. For I am the biggest, meanest mother______ in the whole damned valley."

That's the attitude you need to win a war. Graham's nonsense is like fairy dust: great idea with no relevance to reality.

Right on target!
Dr.Sowell's column relates in some detail what many of us conservatives have been talking about for months. And he's right. The events of this last week should make it obvious to all what kind of enemies we are up against, but it won't.

The Liberals will soon appear on this forum telling us how wrong Dr. Sowell is, in one manner or another as they set about pushing their same old Leftist agenda.

Many conservatives, in the name of tolerance, will fall into debate with them. Whether trying to convince them the "error of their ways." Or just plain entertainment. I used to find it amusing to do this but I've stopped. It is no longer fun to have intellectual discourse with a person whom you take out their brain, bounce it all over the floor and they don't even know it's gone.

I would consider Liberals completely irrelevant if they weren't so dangerous and damaging to our country. I have only vile things to say to all Liberals and will use every foul name I can think of to call them. Any Liberal posting here will get no debate out of me, only hatred! Because I hate them with all that's in me. Any tolerance I had is long gone. These stupid S.O.B's will get many more Americans killed if allowed to continue. The time for arguing with them has stopped!

A question to the left gallery:
Would you rather

1) let your family die, including yourself, and during the process think, "I'm a moral person, despite the fact my killer despises me for it," or

2) save yourself, family and future, but have the attempted murderer think you are a cad for doing so?

The left does not face up to this dilemma because for them it's always someone else who should pay the price for left's moral superiority. It's their idea of teamwork: I think up the ideas, you pay for putting them into practice, and if they fail you did it incorrectly.

These thoughts are clearly articulated in Dr Sowell's book, "The Vision of the Anointed."
He deals primarily with domestic social issues, but the core principles and M.O. of the left are equally applicably to the issues addressed in the column. If you haven’t read it I urge you to do so.

Unfortunately, this round of left wing blunders will cost more than inconvenience or money. Last week’s UN fool’s parade was proof positive that diplomacy is dead. Winston Churchill where are you?

Typtology
"Graham's nonsense is like fairy dust: great idea with no relevance to reality."

You're just not thinking happy thoughts. You have to do that for the fairy dust to work like it does for Senator Graham.

-----

Ohmmmm, ohmmmm (channeling Kos from the ether)

While I agree that we are no better than the terrorists, that doesn't mean the Geneva Conventions shouldn't apply to terrorists - quite the opposite. How would you feel if the terrorists or Iran refused to give our soldiers the treatment arguably due them under the Geneva Conventions (when they aren't fighting ILLEGAL WARS, that is)?

Terrorysts, like every humyn being, have the same civil rights that we have, even if the Bushburton Junta refuse to see that in their pursuit of an illegal war and the crushing of dissent.

How, with Carl Rove a free man, can Sowell even begin to claim that the left is easy on criminals? Just because we ensure that our RIGHTS are PROTECTED from overzealous cops, prison guards, capitol police, and special prosecutors? Criminals are people too, and many of them are victyms of an oppresive society seeking to starve out all the poor and disadvantaged, as the Bushitler's tax cuts ethnically cleanse minorities out of white Amerikkka.

Little wonder then, that such an evil junta and its sheeple - Sowell and his supporters on Townhall and all conservatives - would support the oppression of the Palestinian people through their puppet Israel. When you bloodthirsty neodecepticons aren't stealing oil from devlopyng nations, you're invading countries for Israel your massah.

Haven't you had enough of war? All this talk about appeasing Iran just makes me sick. Or it could be the three hits of acid I just dropped. Either way, it's NOT APPEASEMENT! Only warmongers bent on expanding the American Empire, Inc., would call diplomacy appeasement! Iran has a right under the Universal Declaration of Humyn Rights to peaceful pursuit of nuclear power, and that's all they want! Iran is a peaceful democracy promoting social projects that benefit the poor throughout the middle east. And look at that suave president they have. Could that possibly be a country with nuclear weapons on their mind? I didn't think so.

-----------

(ohhmmmm ohmmmm)

So guys, did it work?

The Folly that is the UN
Per UN Resolution 1696 - Iran is to cease all Uranium Enrichment Activities or face severe penalties - Deadline August 31st, 2006...
Hmmm... August 31st... That was almost 4 weeks ago, wasn't it ? As far as I know, Mr. Ahmadinejad hasn't exactly slammed on the brakes at his dozen or so nuclear facilities..
I wonder when the UN security council plans on enforcing Resolution 1696.. Tomorrow ? Next week ? Next year ? Ever ? Maybe the plan is to really play hardball with Resolution 1697..

Randy Newman had it right...
"They don't like us - Never will"
"They take our money - and call us names"
"Let's drop the big one and see what happens!"

The problem is that we need to make Baghdad an American town, not an Islamic democracy, but an American democracy.

The first political candidate that stands up and says the truth, we are fighting a WAR against Muslims. Terrorists, the new government of Iraq and whatever moderates there are has got my vote and my gun.

Sowell in '08
I wish Mr. Sowell had just a little less character. Then, maybe, he would want to run for office.

Democracy isn't for everyone
"The problem is that we need to make Baghdad an American town, not an Islamic democracy, but an American democracy."

Ain't gonna happen. The ability to handle a democratic form of government relies upon the ability of most - and by that I mean an overwhelming majority - of a population to commit to identification with the community in which they live rather than to the tribe, the clan, the religious sect, or the ethnic subdivision to which they belong.

The Iraqi people aren't there yet. We keep making too damned much about "democracy" when what is really needed in Iraq is a defined and very limited *REPUBLIC* that is completely blind to religion, ethnicity, language, or anything else.

Not a sham "Islamic Republic" that just applies a veneer of parliamentary proceeding over a theocratic tyranny but a real, honest-to-Madison limited government that reduces its role in society to the defense of individual rights - life, liberty, and property - and absolutley *NOTHING ELSE*.

As long as the Baghdad government runs on political patronage and a "divide the oil wealth" basis, it's going to be a point of division, not unification. Everybody is going to want government power for the sake of both economic advantage and the ability to use government violence to crush their rivals. Faction fighting forever, and no hope of civil peace.

To manage the frictions implicit in a population that is incapable of identifying with Iraq as a unitary political entity - the inability of the Sunni Kurd to value the life and property of the Shi'ia Arab as much as his own, for example, and similarly in every direction and combination - you need a government in Baghdad that is limited strictly to the "Night Watchman State" model.

And to that neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are capable of committing themselves.

---

Brilliantly perceptive
As usual.

Great postings
I was eager to say smething, but its all been said. I pray that it will only take one more 911 to wake up the USA so we take the gloves off. Sooner or later, the ragheads will pull off another.

Heads up
It’s to the point that I throw my hands up in disgust. The World media, including the Americans, the politically correct, and the bleeding liberals seem to have all come together with Islamic fascist to take over the World including the United States and nobody is doing anything about it. At least not anything that has any real results.
We are sitting on our high horses and just like the U.S. Congress and the U.N. all we are doing is flapping our mouths. We will still be flapping our mouths when the mushroom clouds start sprouting.
It’s only a matter of time, a short time, before people will be looking at themselves and asking what happened. Get ready now before it’s too late.

Whirled Peas

Democracy v. Republic
First of all, we're not a democracy. We're a REPUBLIC. They used to teach that in schools, but now I suppose they're too busy teaching how to put on condoms....

Second, going by this criteria: "Ain't gonna happen. The ability to handle a democratic form of government relies upon the ability of most - and by that I mean an overwhelming majority - of a population to commit to identification with the community in which they live rather than to the tribe, the clan, the religious sect, or the ethnic subdivision to which they belong. " there is nothing in this statement that indicates that the United States of America is ready for a democratic form of government, as every pollster shows. If you remember the old Tom Lehr song, "The Merry Minuet", and you look around a little bit, you'll see that nothing as changed over the past 40 years.

"The whole world is festering with unhappy souls; the French hate the Germans; the Germans hate the Poles; Italians hate Yugoslavs; South Africans hate the Dutch; and I don't like anybody very much....

"But we can be thankful and tranquil and proud; for man's been endowed by a mushroom shaped cloud; and we know for certain that some lovely day -- someone will set the spark off and we will all be blown away...."

Yes, we're all doomed and we'd better get our souls in order and keep our powder dry. Meanwhile I can't do a darned thing about any of it so I am going to Road Atlanta and watch beautiful cars speed through the night around one of the best race tracks in America. As Benjamin Franklin once said, "If this is the end of the world and Christ has come again, I prefer to be discovered doing my job."


Reality
I continue to be amazed at the incredible naivete
of the left .. Even more when the the politicos
make statements concerningthe thugs that totally committed to destroying the USA.
When are these sunday school goodie goodies going to view the war realistiscally as an event
that must be "fight fire with fire but" more over "fight fire with all the fire" we have.
Unless these immature nitwits come the realty of
the enemy we are doomed. We could lose .....

To Pistol And Easy
You're unfortunatly correct....but of course as Dr. Sowell's article points out,....it will be OUR fault because we are infidels ; and the left will say we deserved it. "Immature idiots" good description. This political correctness is so far gone it defies 'common sense. "Those in the United States and in other western nations who are urging dialogue with Iran are repeating the tragic mistakes of the 1930s that led to World War II. People say talk is cheap but it can be enormously costly when it becomes just a way to forestall action while an enemy nation builds up its military threat." Pay attention, America!


Jerubaal
Nope, didn;t take. I still think we should be shoving bamboo splinters under their fingernails, if that's what it takes. I greatly fear that we (U.S.) don't have what it will take to win this war, and we simply cannot afford to lose it. PC will be the end of this nation as we know it.

Sewell for President
'Nuff said.

Unless it's Sewell for Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

Barry

Correction
I should learn to spell. It's

Sowell for President or Chief Justice.

Barry

Rome
You know Rome was never really conquered. I crumbled from within.

We're better what?
Senator Graham comment that we will win the war agains terrorists becaues we'er better isn't a complete sentence. We're better what? Are we better piano players, talkers, farmers, liars?

I think he means that we're overall better people because we don't believe in making someone feel uncomfortable and Graham probably feels superior to most of us because he tries harder not to make someone feel uncomfortable. The world will love us for being better people, the French news papers will sing our praises, John McCain will get elected president and the terrorists will send us a letter of appology for their insensitive actions. Now lets all hold hands and sing Puff the Magic Dragon.

Actually, Senator Graham and others who claim to believe like him remind me of the dweebs on the playground that "volunteered" their lunch money to be left alone and used cheap talk to rationalize the virtue of this. They, of course, were better people. The conflict now is not for security on the playground and we stand to lose more than our lunch money.

Being the better person doesn't necessrily mean you will win, unless it's wimp contest.

Senator, what idiot is advising you? You better remember, before someone reminds you, that your job is to represent your state and it's people, not your personal idea of how the universe should operate. If you can't face the reality of the situation I suggest you resign and let a real man take over the job.

Senator, when confronting someone you have to achieve a common language and if they won't rise to our level of communication, we will have to learn theirs. Learning theirs doesn't make us the same as them, it make us multilingual in that we can choose how we communicate. We may not like using a certain language but when you have to you have to, or suffer the consequences.

I suggest you put Senator Graham in a controlled space with someone, say a jihadist with a big chip on his shoulder, and see who wins; the better person, Graham, or the fired up jihadist.

A few years ago Dr. Sowell wrote something to the effect that when the war for the culture is between the barbarians and the wimps the barbarians will win.

Prof. Sowell's comments
One should read about Islam - and I highly recomment Robert Spencer's "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" Regnery Publishing, Inc, 2005 . Then, if one is not blinded by the leftist fog, one will understand what these offers of truce mean, at the light of Islamic history: 1) like the ten years truce Muhammad signed with his enemies - it was a way to rest and rearm, so as to get back to the fight, so he explained to those who critized him. 2) One should not kill the enemy outright, without first showing him the way of Allah and his prophet. If he doesn't accept it, them subdue him, as a slave, or kill him outright. Before Mr, Ahmedinejad destroys Israel, and the rest of hus, with his atomic bombs, he must go through the theatrical production of offering peace. Don't be deceived by it.

TIME HAS COME TODAY
Diplomacy didn't work.

The liberals have not a clue.
So now there's only one thing left to do

They can now start to cry.

As the time is near for the little monkey leaders that were here to keep an eye up high for mushrooms in the sky.

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views thoughts and opinions.

Call Me "Naive" ...
(and it will be among the nicest things I've ever been called), but think that we may be at the cusp on an awakening of sorts for the willfully blind left.

The comments of Rangel and Pelosi, as pathetic as those two are, at least for once employed words that were appropriate to the topic. Bill Clinton's recent temper tantrum was nothing but self-centered (as is the case with everything Slick Willie has ever said or done), but he's now staked out a position that is more aggressive on combating terror than anything I've heard to date from a Democrat.

Instead to the "Reporting for Duty" act offered by John Kerry, which was clearly just a politically expedient charade, I get the sense that the left is FINALLY waking up to the seriousness of the evil confronting us.

Alright, now I've said it. Let me have!

we will make a deal with Islam
When saudi arabia stops confiscating and burning Bibles we will treat the koran with respect. UNtil such time it should be divided into 3 inch squares in every stall in Gitmo.

Maybe if Graham and the others suggested
that we repent and return to God as a nation and prayed for deliverance from our unbelieving enemies, I might have thought he was on the right track. And if we decided to truly protect our borders...and stop the radicalization of our own prisoners...and be willing to completely destroy the enemy if that is the command of the Lord. As it is, liberals and their 'better than that' allies seem as unwilling to confront the enemy as a child who is being bullied out of his lunch money; better not make him madder, or you might get beat up! I have more respect for those who, on principal, will refuse to hurt another living soul, than the wishy-washy types who seem to think Islamofascists think about life the way we do.

definitions
What is diplomacy? "Skill in dealing with sensitive matters." A fancy way of saying, "negotiations." So, for those who want to rely on these diplomatic solutions, what are we negotiating for? We leave you alone and you leave us alone?

One bargaining chip was Czechoslovakia to Adolph, who simply wanted back some land lost in WWI. Happy Adolph, no more trouble.

Just strong arm Israel into a new diaspora, allow the beloved Palestinians (amongst their Arab bretheren especially)to have the Holy Land, and all will be well. Perhaps if the Muslims just get all the middle east, they'll be quiet and bow down to Mecca together in harmony, and fade into the mists of time, unless anyone in the world dares to question their belief system. But we can rest assured that any writer's head on a platter will placate their disquietude.

This post will become lunatic if I continue to ponder how to be diplomatic about Muslims. As well, lunatic becomes an apt adjective for the many who delude themselves into diplomacy with unreasonable people/nations.

Sadly, I fear that a nuke in N.Y. City will still not be enough to wake up those who think that the U.S. is the problem. Major network ratings will be up as gutsy reporters interview people, asking them how they "felt" when they first saw the mushroom cloud. Home videos will be purchased by major networks, but then suppressed to keep us from overreacting. Footage of Muslim countries dancing in the streets will provide a "balanced view," and Dan Rather and Katy Couric will weep on camera, bemoaning and blaming the Bush Administration.

May America rise up, may it not be so.

Isaiah 45:22
Have you read Taylor Caldwell’s article, "Honoria"? It was written in 1957 and is fascinating, if not chilling.

"Better Red than Dead."
Sound familiar, leftists? How about: "Better Towel Head than Dead."?

"Can't we all just get along?" NO! They can't, as they say continuously, if we would only listen. I hope we realize that we can't either, under their rules, before it's too late.

September12
Don't fool yourself about the Dem/libs waking up! Rangel and Pelosi have been calling GWB everything BUT the Devil since he was elected. I don't see where Hugo Chavez said anything worse than they have said in the past; and never forget that Rangel is an uapologetic supporter of Fidel Castro. His 'outrage' seems just a bit contrived to me.

And Bill Clinton's positions no longer matter; he is a former President and has no power to do anything now. He has to be judged by his action or inaction in the 8 years he occupied the White House, and he must be judged on why he acted the way he did. For the Clinton admnistration national security decisions were being made on the basis of how the public would like it, not on whether or not it was in the national interest. So we had the failures to take Bin Laden out because there may have been some legal backlash, we allowed the 'Blackhawk Down' incident to go unpunished so as not to cause any political repercussions, and the 'Cole' bombing went unanswered in order to avoid the appearance of election year posturing.

So just don't let all of the rhetoric coming from the left fool you. They are still all hat and no cattle when it comes to national defense.

All Deals Off
Not until mankind will embrace the Living Word Of God. Not untill all of mankind will bend a knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. Not untill Mankind confesses that man cannot do it on his own, that there is a power, a love, a way greater than man himself. A God of Love and true strenght, of mercy and forgiveness, for the natural state of mankind has been tainted with sin and left to his own device, will once again fall on that path. God and his living word will embrace mankind and lead them to a path that is giving, sharing and caring. The true path for man to embrace each other, thereby living in the Word of God. Peace will be achived.

Re: Democracy v. Republic

AudiR10 writes:

> First of all, we're not a democracy. We're a REPUBLIC.
> They used to teach that in schools, but now I suppose
> they're too busy teaching how to put on condoms....

When I took high school civics in the '70s, well before
the condom era, we were taught that a republic is a TYPE
of democracy -- an indirect, or representative democracy,
to be exact.

This "America is a republic, not a democracy" mantra is
something I only started to hear in recent years, after
the Left had begun to consolidate its hold on academia
and pollute impressionable young minds. Promulgating
the idea that America isn't a democracy is a subtle form
of criticism, intended to undermine kids' patriotism.


> Second, going by this criteria: "Ain't gonna happen.

You mean "...this criterion." The word "criteria" is plural.


> If you remember the old Tom Lehr song, "The Merry Minuet",
> and you look around a little bit, you'll see that nothing
> as changed over the past 40 years.

Er, that's Tom LEHRER.



-CB-


Geneva CONVENTION
Convention means an agreement between parties to treat each other in similar fashion. The Islamic militants have not signed, or otherwise agreed to abide by these conventions. That they appear to be non-state entities should not excuse them - since that is just another tactic anyway.

For us to hold to standards the Islamic militants refuse - only plays into their trap, and emboldens them.

Extracting vital (life-saving) info from prisoners is very much like the nature of war itself - a temporary brutality necessary to allow peace in the long term.

I wonder what would happen if a Lefty's daughter was buried alive by some deviant. The police have the deviant, but he ain't talking. Is Lefty gonna worry about the deviant's "rights" then?

His daughter is no more valuable to him than our brother warriors are to us.

USMC - Viet Nam 1968

L. Graham is an idiot...
And I mean that in the most thoughtful way. Have you heard his 'ideas' on the illegal invasion? He really is the village idiot and I'm appalled that he's doing anything but filling up gas tanks. (my apologies to gas station attendants...I'm sure most have more sense than Graham).

Decisive Leadership
We have a good leader in the Whitehouse now who seems to limit himself from greatness by being too concerned with political consequences. When he departs from this preoccupation as he did in his last speech he starts to show a measure of greatness. Sadly he does not do it enough, and usually stops short and squanders his momentum.

The division in our country driven by the left and their continued negative mindset regarding the 2000 election, and their subsequent hate for Bush will keep the country divided until something bigger than party loyality happens.

Unforunately that "something bigger" is likely to be an attack by the enemy upon one or several of our cities.
When and if this happens (and I think it's not far off) the current rancorous division fueled by all the nonsensical PC lovers of the left will evaporate over night.

Then we can hope that another not now thought of leader (assuming Bush's term is ended) rises to the level of greatness to take us down the road to victory.

It simply cannot be done without unity, and great leadership.


What Thomas Sowell
has captured so brilliantly in this column, and has made obvious to all who care to see, is the actual dissolution of a once great civilization before our eyes. Fifty percent of the population has no idea what is going on politically, but is concerned about their "right" to vote because they see in it an opportunity to advance their particular grievance against government, or to put money in their pocket by taxing the wealth and incomes of other perhaps more successful citizens to secure entitlement programs. They could care less that we're involved in a war for survival and most don't know the difference between Iraq and Utah.

Of the remaining 50 percent, 25% are so smitten with fear, so cowardly , and so intimidated by confronting the enemy, they're racing to the local malls to pick up their burkas and Korans. If the dems win the House in November, I suspect they'll conduct business in Arabic to appease the enemy.

It is essential therefore that the remaining 25%, that's us, the cultural warriors ( to use O'Reilly's verbiage) and conservatives who frequent this website, continue to carry the banner for this once proud nation.









Inversions of decency and sanity
Politically correct America wages hysterical crusades against ethnic slurs or sexual comments by private individuals, while shrugging its shoulders at abortion, gross criminality, and marriage infidelity by (a) President - IF he is seen as a sufficiently "tolerant" and "inclusive" person. Thus the modern liberal regime bans the merest breath of the Christian religion in public schools, while subsidizing student clubs devoted to witchcraft. Thus the mainstream media routinely attack the "oppressive" and "racist" police, while ignoring the criminality of the criminals whom the police are "oppressing".

These inversions of decency and sanity are NOT the work of anarchists. They are the logical consequence of the central credo of modern liberalism: THAT ALL INTOLERANCE AND DISCRIMINATION MUST BE ELIMINATED . . . In a society dedicated to that proposition, the good itself must ultimately be seen as evil, because the good discriminates against evil, while evil must be blessed with victim status, because it is excluded by the good.

"The problem described here points to its own solution, which is to abandon THE MODERN LIBERAL IDEOLOGY THAT IDENTIFIES MORALITY WITH POWERLESSNESS, and return to traditional moral standards. Unlike today's CULTURAL LENINISM that defines men's moral worth as the INVERSE of their perceived degree of power or of their attachment to established ways of life, traditional morality judges the intrinsic moral qualities of men's ACTIONS, and so IS CAPABLE of seeing and stopping real evil when it appears. By contrast, . . . a people that defines the good as tolerance must inevitably END UP TOLERATING EVIL, even the evil of terrorist killers. Indeed, such a people must ULTIMATELY LOSE THE AUTHORITY TO ENFORCE ANY STANDARDS AT ALL, since standards can be enforced only by a society's dominant culture, and a dominant culture, as a dominant culture, is by definition "unequal" and "exclusive" and thus (by modern liberal / Leftist standards) illegitimate.

If, therefore, we truly desire to live in a society that can effectively resist the evil of, say terrorists, or any evil for that matter, we must do two things: (1) define the good NOT as tolerance but as BEHAVIOR in accordance with the moral law; and (2) affirm the legitimacy - and thus the moral authority - of our particular nation and its historically dominant (Judeo-Christian) culture.

Kraut wrote:
If you can't face the reality of the situation I suggest you resign and let a real man take over the job.


That sentence hit me like a ton of bricks (how's that for cliche)? What happened to all of the "real men?" Growing up with 4 brothers I felt safe if someone tried to bully me--my brothers, though not needing to, would certainly have protected me if they had to. Now the feminazis have turned many men into wimps and users of women. Read about just one court case and you'll see how men are not men anymore in the sense that they used to be. Women should be free to be women and men (the physically superior--that oughta tick off some) should be men. I miss the days when men protected women...in society. Personally, I still have that--thank God.

We are all wrong
Islamic Fascism isn't the enemy. The true enemy is ourselves and the fascist use it against ourselves. Americans have always helped in the world. Sometimes we helped the wrong people for the right reasons.

We all chat to ourselves here and we feel good for beating up on the liberals. I have a brother in San Francisco whom is one of the original Moveon.org members. He is 67 years old. I have tried to reason, tried to review his articles he sends me, I mark them up, try to insert logic and guess what, I get Bush lied, Iraqi's died.

I have had other success however, one at a time. A 45 year old professional, he is now thinking for himself. I don't know how he will vote in November, but we have interesting conversations.

I have had success with a 27 year old law school graduate, whom 3 years ago was as far left as you can get. Now she sees responsibility, choice, and the need to protect.

I am charging each one of you to find "your project", the liberal you can talk to, one on one, and bring them around, not by calling them a name, but by logic, let them find the answers, but tell them why you think like you do, let them try to convince you of their arguement, great turn around.

My brother, well he is a lost cause,,,,,,

Leadership?
What leadership? The republicans control the house, senate, administration and goodly portion of the supreme court. Just do what needs to be done! Whats the problem? True leaders make the hard decisions, stand behind them and execute. The liberals are right where you want them, they are helpless, broken and don't have a clue. You spend all your time and energy demonizing and hating the liberals. What a waste of time, you have them neutralized.

What's missing? Its simple. Credibility. Say you are going to do something and then do it! Bush can't do that. He does not know how.


Creighton Beryll writes:
"Give it a rest, willya, folks? Religion is, or should be, a private matter. It seems to me that we all share enough of a common lexicon that we should be able to discuss secular issues in secular terms. "

You sir, are out of line. Secularism may be your religion, but Christianity is obviously Kathy's. You are out of line to try to silence her.

IMO, discussing life and death issues, especially discussion of moral and ethical conduct during war, is exactly the place for metaphysics. It is the basis of our enemy's motivations, after all. It is the basis of our culture, way of life, and system of government.

Democratic form of Government?
I am just sick to death of this referral to our form of government being democratic.

Not just "No!" But He77, NO!"

You can't find a single reference to this being a democratic nation for the first 150 years of our history.

Get a clue, people. We are a Republic. At least we are supposed to be. Read some history. Read the Federalist papers. Read the Constitution.

Read this:

Alexander Tyler (writing on the Athenian Republic):
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

Re: All Deals Off
CB:

"Give it a rest, willya, folks? Religion is, or should be, a private matter. It seems to me that we all share enough of a common lexicon that we should be able to discuss secular
issues in secular terms."

CB, first thing, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Religions are man-made and depend on earning their salvation, which is impossible.

Second, you are right. It is a private matter between you and the God of the Bible. My question is, If you died tonight, would you go to heaven or h-ll? It doesn't matter whether you believe is heaven or h-ll, they still exist.

Third, there is no such thing as "secular issues in secular terms". All things are either of God or not of God. The ultimate peace of this world will be determined by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and this prophecy will be fulfilled as all the others in the Bible.

Fourth, Unlike Islam that converts at the point of a sword or by birth, Christianity is shared one-on-one through the power of the Holy Spirit. I pray that the Holy Spirit will convict you of your need to repent of your sins and receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior.


No one considered....
The original authors of the Geneva Conventions never even considered the kind of enemy we now face.

The Geneva Conventions were specifically written to deal with a certain kind of enemy. This enemy would be those who represent a particular nation, and who are commanded by particular leaders. Even if these enemies were willing to sacrifice their lives -- like Japanese Kamikazes flying their planes into our ships -- when their leader told them to stop fighting, they would stop fighting.

Today's enemy, though, represents no nation, and is led by no living being who is capable of telling them the war is over. Not only are they willing to sacrifice their own lives, they are willing to sacrifice their entire family for their "cause". These people cannot be bargained with, bought off, or subdued. Their one and only goal is not world conquest, but the annihilation of anyone who doesn't think like they do.

Imagine, as a hypothetical, that aliens from a distant planet came to Earth and began warring with us. Imagine that these aliens sole intention is to destroy every human being on this planet, and that they accept no negotiations to any other effect. Imagine that no conventional weapon we have effects them in any way. Bullets bounce off them, bombs -- conventional or nuclear -- don't scorch them, nothing can hurt them. Nothing except mustard gas. For some reason, mustard gas is highly effective against them.

Unfortunately, the Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of mustard gas.

But those same Geneva Conventions also were never written with such impervious enemies in mind.

Should we as a species resign ourselves to extinction merely because of some piece of document that never was written to cover such an enemy says we aren't allowed to defend ourselves against them?

The answer to that question is the answer to whether waterboarding or playing loud music should be prohibited against these Islamic nut cases.

Red Flag - Offensive
I do believe some "subversive" has red-flagged all the pro USA comments; in this instance all.

A couple of thoughts
"The Merry Minuet": I looked on my old Kingston Trio album (yes, the old vinyl one), and the song was written by some guy named Sheldon Harnick, not Tom Lehr or Lehrer.

Jerubaal: Great Kos imitation. I almost caved and became a lib! Fortunately, the coffee kicked in and my brain woke up.

Pistol: Yes, a 9/11 is going to happen again, on US soil, I have no doubt. Have you read my "City of Glass" essay? (what a shameless plug for my blog...).

I also agree with those who posit that the Geneva Conventions don't apply. Since I've already plugged my blog, look at the "Terrorism. Crime or act of war?" essay.

I also wonder where are all the libs who usually post? None of them have commented on this column.




Revelations
It all started with that no good lefty Jesus, telling Peter to get behind Him. He should have formed a couple of divisions of good christian stock, such as the warriors who post on this board. He and his no good liberal disciples, dying for the cause instead of fighting.

Ole goshawk would have killed a million of them Romans. It clearly states in the bible that we should hate and kill all of our enemies.

Man, if we just could live in a conservative country like Russia, we could kill all the liberals, no problem. I hate it that we live in the most radical, most progressive country in the history of humankind. Too bad none of us can join the Army where we could kill Muslims at will and maybe knock off a few liberals at the same time. If only those liberals weren't blocking the doors to the recruiting offices we could all be in Iraq right now.

I hate liberals.


We Are Our Own Worst Enemy.
The mindset that is giving Geneva Convention cover to terrorists is going to lose this fight for us. The new leaked "Terrorism Assesment" that says terrorism is on the rise is moronic. It is on the rise because we are making it known that we are not serious about fighting this war. We are being sold out by the press. NSA wiretaps, secret (until now) CIA prisons, special Ramadan menu @ Guantanamo, etc. all give the impression that we are more concerned for the rights of terrorists than the rights of our own citizens (more specifically "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".). It is time we pull out all the stops and fight this like a war. Oh, but the press and the left won't allow it. God bless America. We need it.

what is at issue here
There are two separate issues here. It is true that we should not give in to Islamic pressures to suspend free speech out of fear of offending them because that would undermine our Democratic ways. But it is also true that by suspending habeus corpus for detainees at a time when civil courts are active which is an unprecented move towards suspending due process of law upon which our Constitution is based then by undermining our own Constitution we will do more destruction to our Democratic society than the terrorists could ever hope to accomplish.

Re: Red Flag - Offensive


partyof1 writes:

> I do believe some "subversive" has red-flagged all the
> pro USA comments; in this instance all.


Liberals do that sort of thing, you know. Ever checked out
the pages about Ann Coulter's books on Amazon.com? All the
positive reader reviews are lopsidedly flagged as "unhelpful."

And to think that these people want the lest of us to allow
them to lead our country...


-CB-


always right...is wrong
I think you have no clue what liberalism is(in its modern form). Liberalism seeks to elevate the governments role in personal life. Welfare(liberal) versus private Charities(conservative). Private hospitals(conservative) versus government run healthcare(liberal).

Please tell me how in any way you can equate conservatism or liberalism with foreign policy or defending yourself? Also tell me what parts of the Bible Jesus says to submit to government for your daily needs? Perhaps then you could spell out where Jesus says to let your neighbors, family and friends get killed by others? PS. Turning the other cheek was in response to a slap, not a dagger).

I await your answer, though I doubt you will get it 'right'.

Naivete
Whether it's protecting our borders or the war against terrorism, the US politicians seem to come across as clueless by wanting to only act on "higher moral ground". That's the weakness that will lead to our defeat. That's the silly belief that will end in the death or enslavement of us all. This is the time to win----not play a game of "I'm morally better than you". You can quote that all you want when your head is being sawed off by that person you're better than. I can't see most of Europe surviving this Islamist attack on them. They'll buckle to the point of being taken over by mullahs. I truly believe that. We should not rush to their assistance either UNLESS we call the shots and we make the rules. It's obvious they (with the exception of Great Britain) can't see what's going on and/or are too timid to do anything about it. There is no need for American troops to die for people who hand over their freedom to tyrants because they believe they are on a higher moral plane and, as Senator Graham foolishly said, "we are better". What nonesense.

Don't Step in the Leadership
So sayeth Dilbert...good point about W. Think back at what REAGAN acheived in the 1980s, facing a Democratic Congress and a potent, unquestioned media that was so mainstream it wasn't even called the mainstream media.

I like W a lot, but he has Congress and Rush and Co., and sometimes he acts downright Clintonian in terms of policy (unforunately the Supreme Court has turned out to contain a number of Manchurian justices).

Again, do not trust Graham. He is an AF JAG--these guys make their bones by getting warfighters convicted on law of armed conflict violations.

"This week's revelations"
The thing that is so great about Sowell's column is how he underlines the disconnect between the reaction against the pope's comments and the complete lack of reaction to the rioting and the murder of a poor nun.

While the pope is excoriated and told to self-censor himself, the terrorists are given a pass on murder.

One side (ours) is held to ridiculously high-minded standards while the other side (theirs) is held to no standard at all. And, for the most part, those doing the standard-holding are supposed to be on our side.

What's wrong with this picture?
JMD

RE: Sir Michael to Creighton Beryll
Good comments.

The problem with atheists and liberals is that they don't comprehend the idea that ideas have consequences.

Osama bin Laden was a very rich Saudi who facilitated the death and destruction he did, based on his RELIGIOUS beliefs.

You and every other person on the planet acts according to your religious beliefs. Unrefutably. You can try to deny it all you want, but you can't refute it.

Therefore, religion isn't just a personal thing. Sorry if that offends you, but that's the fact, Jack.

If my religion convinces me to go out and blow up myself and innocent bystanders, it's not just personal.

If my religion convinces me to go out and shoot little kids fleeing a school in Beslan, my religion isn't just a personal matter.

If I attend Mosques and madrassas that mean to convince me that it is my duty to kill or subjugate "infidels," then my religious beliefs cease to be a "personal" matter.

If my religion cultivates and grooms me to hijack planes and fly them into buildings of non-combatants in order to make a statement about the decadence of another culture, my religion ceases to be just something of a personal nature.

If my religion tells me to go out and tell people that God loves them, that isn't really personal either.

If my religion requires me to tell people that God wants me to tell people that He desires life and not death, that's not something I'm supposed to keep to myself. Hence, not personal.

If I use the Bible to justify the idea that I can keep slaves, my religion is no longer just personal.

All this garbage about religion being personal just really frosts me.

Societies can only exist peacefully when there is some kind of consensus on what the standards of morality are. Religion is the factor that dictates what that consensus is.

I'm not going to live peacefully in a society where there are men who belong to NAMBLA. Ain't gonna happen.

I'm not going to turn my head and think of religion as a personal thing that only matters for the radical muslim man while the radical muslim man beats his wife with a stick because her burka flew up a little in the wind and revealed some skin on her leg.

Religion: personal? Not personal?

What you believe about God or a higher power, or whatever, affects everything you do and don't do.
And everything you do affects everybody around you.

If you act responsibly, the people around you benefit.

If you act like a criminal, people suffer.

There is no DMZ. No Neutrality.

Re: All Deals Off


Walter writes:

> CB, first thing, Christianity is not a religion, it is a
> relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, right. And Islam isn't a religion, either; it's a
relationship with Allah. And a Lexus isn't a car, but a
personal transportation solution.

*snork*


> Religions are man-made and depend on earning their salvation,
> which is impossible.

Of course religions are man-made. But it's only the religion
called Christianity which emphasizes earning one's salvation.
(Or more precisely, it's that subset of the religion called
Christianity which is known as fundamentalism. Jeebus never
said anything about that.)


> Second, you are right. It is a private matter between you
> and the God of the Bible. My question is, If you died tonight,
> would you go to heaven or h-ll? It doesn't matter whether you
> believe is heaven or h-ll, they still exist.

How do you know that? Have you been to either? (I am, first
and foremost, an empiricist.)


> Third, there is no such thing as "secular issues in secular
> terms". All things are either of God or not of God.

Even, say, the question of which brand of hedge trimmer one
should select down at Home Despot? "Not a Black & Decker!
Those are ungodly!"


> The ultimate peace of this world will be determined by the
> return of the Lord Jesus Christ and this prophecy will be
> fulfilled as all the others in the Bible.

Uhh...yeah.

Reminds me of a track on an old Cheech & Chong album (like there's
any other kind), wherein a brainwashed cult member accosts a man:

"Have you talked to God today, sir? He would like to hear from
you!"

"Yeah...yeah. Sure, kid; sure. I...I'll tell you what. I'll
write Him a letter!"


> Fourth, Unlike Islam that converts at the point of a sword or
> by birth, Christianity is shared one-on-one through the power
> of the Holy Spirit. I pray that the Holy Spirit will convict
> you of your need to repent of your sins and receive the Lord
> Jesus Christ as your Savior.

In the words of that great holy man Mr. Natural, why can't you
people just leave me alone?


-CB-


Bring Back the Holy Roman Emperor
As a Catholic, I've always been uncomfortable with much of Jesus' doctrine applied beyond one's personal life into foreign policy, law and order, etc. When Bush said JC was his greatest political influence, I cringed--not only because it was such a blatant attempt at the Thumpers, but because it reflected such an incredible ignorance of the great political thinkers and leaders produced by this nation.

Maybe I'm missing something because I slept all through CCD, but I advocate a vicious foreign policy--employ an aggressive CIA that destabilizes our enemies, a la the glory days of Wild Bill Donovan. You would probably attract a fair number of our more creative thinkers that way.

I also think our projection of military force should not have limitations that restrict us from undesirable collateral damage. On the other hand, killing civilians can have a positive effect on breaking the will of your enemy, and it reflects that we have absolute power over the enemy. Their hatred will turn to fear, and that fear will turn to love. Amen.

The Week's Revelations and Groupthink
Senator Lindsey Graham's comment that "we are going to win in our struggle with terrorists 'because we are better" is symptomatic of groupthink, a common problem in government (and elsewhere). Indeed that quote fits exactly some of the 8 symptoms of groupthink described in DECISION MAKING, A Psychological Analysis of Conflict, Choice, and Commitment Irving L. Janis and Leon Mann, The Free Press (Macmillan), 1977, p132. Two of their symptoms are the (a) illusion of invulnerability and (b) belief in inherent morality of the group. (Those tend to manifest themselves in the idea that we will win because we are inherently moral.) As a decision-making consultant (H.F. Lillywhite, LLC, 503-649-7647) I hammer home the point that if a group has one of the 8 symptoms they should check carefully to be sure they are not indulging in groupthink. If they have two or more of the symptoms they are almost certainly engaging in groupthink.

We already have a fit here, Graham's comment manifests two of the symptoms. However other symptoms Janis and Mann list are Collective rationalization, Stereotyping of outgroups, Direct Pressure on dissenters, and self-censorship, all of which we see in those opposed to an all-out effort against terrorists. They have no fewer than six of the eight symptoms! (And many of them have a seventh, mindguarding or refusal to consider information contrary to their preferred viewpoint. Some also have the eighth, collective rationalization.) I think we can be confident that many of the leftists are engaging in groupthink.

Such groupthink is a serious impediment to good decision making and will nearly always lead to bad decisions. We cannot afford such "thinking" today. The possible consequences of someone like Ahmadinejad acquiring nuclear weapons are just not acceptable.

Before closing I should add one warning however: Please don't think that groupthink is limited to the left. We are all prone to this error and must work hard to avoid it. I'm afraid I've seen some on the right also indulging in groupthink. If you're human you are subject to groupthink.

Two Questions
As conservatives, neo or old, we must blame ourselves for allowing political correctness to get so far out of hand. The First Amendment in the Bill of Rights is first for a reason.

When it comes to our safety most, though obviously not all American understand that good intelligence is paramount. We have no freedoms, liberties or the ability to creat personal wealth if someone kills us, requires us to practice their religion, or enslaves us. We have more and more "delegated" a lot to our federal government. Now faced with our latest most dangerous challenge there are two question each American must ask and answer.

(1) In what war or conflict up until now but especially since our ratification of the Geneva Convention have our captured soldier been treated by the standards of the Convention? We know how the North Korean, Chinese, North Vietnamese, Iran, and several Islamic terrorist groups have treated our citizens.

(2) If you had under your personal control a person that you had significant reason to believe knew information that you could use to prevent your friends, family or community from suffering a truly horrible fate what would you do to get that information? Interestingly, Middle Age torture techniques are not necessarily the best and most reliable, but apparently some of our elected officials want to equate our methods with those of the Inquisition.

We are at war! There are only two ultimate outcomes, winning and losing, everything else is just half time.

I'm with the big dogs now.
Who would have thought that little Lindey Graham, would one day be part of the big dog pack.

Thanks John. Could not have done that without you.

JOHN, WHAT! i mean what! could i have a pass, my lips are sore.

Revelations II
David M,

Just having a little fun. I know Jesus is the Prince of War and He would want us to defend our families by any means necessary. I'm no squishy liberal. Every book of the new testement is just filled with instructions on hate and war and how to destroy those who despitefully use you. I know the drill; see a liberal or a rag head, shoot em!

Creighton Beryll: Jeezemoids?
Creighton Beryll writes:
"There sure are a lot of Jeezemoids in the Townhall.com forums.
We could be talking about gourd farming in Outer Mongolia and somebody would find a way to work Jeebus into the conversation. Give it a rest, willya, folks? Religion is, or should be,
a private matter."

C.B., I couldn't find a definition of "Jeezemoids" in my dictionary, I use Websters and don't have a copy of Beelzebub's dictionary, so I was wondering if you could give me the definition.

Just wondered if I was one of those Townhall.com forum Jeezemoids. Never mind though if your spelling was off and you meant "Jeezoids" because I'm not one of those.

O.K. Religion might be a private matter, but Jesus sure ain't no private matter. So all need to get use to hearing and reading that name Jesus Christ, because Jesus is going to be around in spite of the Left-wingers and secular judges attempts at keeping that name away from the Public.

C.B. at least knows to use Jeebus instead of Jesus.
Jeebus is an old slang word from long ago that was substituted to keep from using Jesus's name in vain. Taking the Lord's name in vain carries with it some sufferable punishment.

Especially for children in those bygone days, because razor straps were a common household item back then.

drug addick
Donaldd, if you really believe all that, I suggest that you reduce your dosage.

Lots of good points made
It all comes down to understanding the nature of our enemy.

Liberals are in fantasyland when it comes to this. Convince enough people regarding the true nature of militant Islam and we'll do what we need to do. But if as a nation we fail in our understanding, we are going to pay the price.

...

Beowulfe, you made a good point -- militant Islam has no "off" switch. There's nobody on their side who call for a surrender. Protecting ourselves will require a comprehensive effort and complete victory will be elusive.

We just can't afford luxuries like extending Geneva convention protections without a reciprical agreement. That's not making a comprehensive effort, and it betrays a lack of understanding about the nature of our enemy.

Perhaps Rumsfeld need to make an offer to terrorists to meet in Geneva to underscore the point these groups didn't attend the first time around. Or, if they're afraid of showing up, they can send their representative from the Associated Press. Or they can meet on bin Laden's MySpace page.

RE: Sir Michael to Creighton Beryll



CDR Will writes:

> The problem with atheists and liberals is that they don't
> comprehend the idea that ideas have consequences.

For the record, I'm not an atheist. I'm simply not involved
with any organized religion. There's a difference. If pressed
to label myself, I'd say I'm an "apathist." I have a vague,
nondenominational conception of a supreme being, but it isn't
something I think about very often.


> You and every other person on the planet acts according
> to your religious beliefs. Unrefutably. You can try to
> deny it all you want, but you can't refute it.

Sure I can, Commander. If I don't have a religion, it logically
follows that I don't act according to my religious beliefs. How
could anyone possibly dispute that?


> If my religion convinces me to go out and blow up myself
> and innocent bystanders, it's not just personal.

> If my religion convinces me to go out and shoot little kids
> fleeing a school in Beslan, my religion isn't just a personal
> matter.

[-etc.-]

What if I don't do any such things, but simply go about my life?
(Which is, in fact, precisely what I do.)


> If my religion tells me to go out and tell people that God loves
> them, that isn't really personal either.

Come, now. That's rather a stretch, don't you think? It's
analogous to blasting music at an intrusive volume and when your
neighbor comes to complain, telling him to suck it up because it's
not just your music, but really his music, too, because it's an
aspect of a culture you both belong to. Or like when your dog
craps on his lawn, telling him that it's really HIS dog crap, too,
because society at large condones the keeping of pets.


> If I use the Bible to justify the idea that I can keep slaves,
> my religion is no longer just personal.

In that case your BELIEF that the Bible condoned slavery would be
personal. Your actually keeping slaves would be a civil matter.
("Render unto Caesar," eh what?)


> Societies can only exist peacefully when there is some kind of
> consensus on what the standards of morality are. Religion is
> the factor that dictates what that consensus is.

To tell you the truth, I can see that both ways. Dennis Prager
recently wrote an excellent series of columns on the Judeo-Christian
ethic. One of the points he made was that these religions were the
origin of a number of values that many people consider secular and
self-evident, such as morals against stealing, murder, lying, etc.,
and the idea that we should treat others as we'd wish to be treated
ourselves. He made a good case for that (as he does for everything
he writes about).

On the other hand, a persistent voice in my mind keeps saying that
such things ARE self-evident without the imprimatur of any religion,
because we can all see empirically that living by them makes life a
lot easier and more pleasant for us and others -- indeed, that our
all living by them is what makes society and civilization possible.
Indeed, many of us come by those values despite not being brought up
in religious households.



-CB-

Here's a quote from Cheney:
"Against such enemies, our only option is to go on the offensive, track them down until they have no place left to hide, and stay in the fight until the fight is won."

Tell me again, what is the Democrats proposed approach? Terrorists fighting for militant Islam don't want peace, and there exists no mechanism for them to surrender in any case.

Americans had better buckle down for a long, hard slog.

Re: Creighton Beryll: Jeezemoids?


latter-daze writes:

> C.B., I couldn't find a definition of "Jeezemoids" in my
> dictionary, I use Websters and don't have a copy of
> Beelzebub's dictionary, so I was wondering if you could
> give me the definition.

I'd have thought the "jeeze" phoneme would've made it apparent
to you. You know, "jeeze" as in "Jesus?" "Aww, jeeze, mom!"

"Jeezemoid" is an evolution of the early-'70s expression "Jesus
freak," to wit: a Christian -- particularly an obnoxiously public
one who insists on looking at everything through the prism of
Christianity...and who insists on discussimg everything in those
terms, even among nonreligious people. (Also see "obnoxious,"
"overbearing," etc.)


> Just wondered if I was one of those Townhall.com forum Jeezemoids.

Wellsir, I don't rightly know. Armed with the definition of the term
as you now are, what would YOU say?


> O.K. Religion might be a private matter, but Jesus sure ain't no
> private matter.


> So all need to get use to hearing and reading that name Jesus
> Christ, because Jesus is going to be around in spite of the
> Left-wingers and secular judges attempts at keeping that name
> away from the Public.

I'm neither a left-winger nor a judge (secular or otherwise), nor
do I play either on TV. But even I recognize that it isn't the
name that's the issue. It's the perceived intrusion of religion
into the secular sphere.


> C.B. at least knows to use Jeebus instead of Jesus. Jeebus is
> an old slang word from long ago that was substituted to keep
> from using Jesus's name in vain.

I didn't know that! Seriously.

There was a character in one of R. Crumb's Zap Comix named
Cheeses K. Reist.



-CB-


hugo
Once again Dr. Sowell tells it like it is. Not only is Hugo Chavez intellectually and morally bankrupt, he is obviously doing blow.

Creighton Beryll writes:
"Oh, piffle. First, secularism is NOT a religion, but the absence of it."

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, could be it's a duck.

You're claiming that since vanilla ice cream is not chocolate ice cream, it's not ice cream. Nonsense, it's just another flavor.

RE: Sir Michael to Creighton Beryll
"On the other hand, a persistent voice in my mind keeps saying that such things ARE self-evident without the imprimatur of any religion,
because we can all see empirically that living by them makes life a lot easier and more pleasant for us and others -- indeed, that our
all living by them is what makes society and civilization possible. Indeed, many of us come by those values despite not being brought up
in religious households."

Congratulations! Now you know what Paul means when he wrote to the Galatians that the Law of God is written in man's heart, also known as the "conscience" and "natural law."

Merry minuet
I thought the merry little minuet was the Kingston Trio, written by Sheldon Harnick...?

Re: Creighton Beryll writes:

Sir Michael writes:

[secularism isn't religion, but the lack of it]

> You're claiming that since vanilla ice cream is not
> chocolate ice cream, it's not ice cream. Nonsense,
> it's just another flavor.


How can secularism be a religion when it amounts to a
complete disinterest in all things spiritual?

It isn't ice cream. It isn't even frozen yogurt. Lime
Jell-O with those little marshmallows in it, maybe, but
even that's a stretch.



-CB-


Hey! ,,always Right!
You have me all wrong when you say "Ole goshawk would have killed a million of them Romans."

You need to up-date from Romans to Liberals!

RE: Sir Michael to Creighton Beryll

Sir Michael writes:

> Congratulations! Now you know what Paul means when he wrote
> to the Galatians that the Law of God is written in man's
> heart, also known as the "conscience" and "natural law."


That would be the law of the Christian God, of course.

First you insist that secularism is a religion, and now you
imply that people are Christian by default, whether they want
to be or not, simply by virtue of being human.

You have an, er, _interesting_ way of turning things around.
I'm reminded of "War Is Peace," "Freedom Is Slavery," and all
that from _1984_.

("Hey, everybody! No need to go to church anymore You can
start sleeping late on Sunday, 'cause the Law Of God is
written in your hearts! Is that cool, or what?")


-CB-


Case For Christ
CB:
>Of course religions are man-made. But it's only >the religion called Christianity which >emphasizes earning one's salvation.

You have it exactly backwards. All man-made religions are based on earning your way to heaven or their definition of heaven

Christianity is based on Man being sinful, God is Holy, How does man bridge the gap between a holy God and sinful man? It is thru the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins that provides the path to God. His sacrifice as the Passover Lamb provides the covering for our sin and we are seen as righteous by a Holy God.

There are no works or good deeds we can do to earn heaven or make up for our sins. We need to repent of our sins and receive the free gift of Jesus's sacrifice for us.

CB:
>In the words of that great holy man Mr. >Natural, why can't you people just leave me >alone?

CB, you repsonded to Kathy, you must have a desire built into you by God to hear our responses. God must be talking to you about your spiritual condition and your need for Salvation.
True Salvation is only through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.


ProfGene writes:
"what is at issue here
There are two separate issues here. It is true that we should not give in to Islamic pressures to suspend free speech out of fear of offending them because that would undermine our Democratic ways. But it is also true that by suspending habeus corpus for detainees at a time when civil courts are active which is an unprecented move towards suspending due process of law upon which our Constitution is based then by undermining our own Constitution we will do more destruction to our Democratic society than the terrorists could ever hope to accomplish."

Well, the only part of the Constitution that speaks of Habeas Corpus is Article I. Section. 9. Clause 2: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "

It could be argued that this permits the suspension of habeas corpus as we are at war and have been attacked on our soil.

I would argue the the Constitution's Preamble, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." would indicate that its protections appy to the "people of the United States" and not to our enemies.

I would further argue that civilian courts do not have jurisdiction over military affairs and prisoners.

I think this makes you 0-3.

Creighton, Walter, Donaldd
CREIGHTON: I absolutely LOVE what you are writing, keep it up! I am Christian, but I am also a constant advocate for clarity of thought and language, and your posts are an excellent example of those. I applaud your sentiments, and the ways in which you phrase them.

WALTER, SIR MICHAEL, ET AL: Since policy decisions of the United States government in regard to the world are the Topic, religion really *isn't* a necessary component of the discussion. I can see how you all see things through that prism, but to say that "all things are of God" really is a stretch. CB's example of Lawn Doctor vs. Black & Decker is right on point as an illustration of this.

Bottom line, you may or may not choose to see everything in religious terms, but given the non-religious nature of the U.S. Government, in practice if not actual Constitutional design (my personal jury is still out on this one), you have to concede that CB is correct in positing that these matters CAN be discussed without bringing your personal faith into the mix. Whether or not you choose to is a personal matter for you.

Finally, DONALDD: Forget to take your medication today? You may not have noticed, but we are all writing in response to a particular column, and the opinions expressed there. It might be polite to at least orient your arguments in this direction of that column, or the subsequent debates here in the Talkbacks, rather than just going off on your usual nonsensical tear. Remember, Thorazine is your FRIEND!

*Totally Off Topic*
Do some of the posts here on TH get deleted? I have seen some pretty rank/inflammatory posts before, so I can't figure they are deleting based on that. However, I often (read: daily) encounter replies to posts that are nowhere to be found. Anyone know the skinny?

Not sure why, but it bothers me a little that one of my favorite conservative websites seems to be doing some censoring in the forums. /shrugs shoulders/ Then again it isn't my website, so I guess they can do whatever they want.

Creighton Beryll writes:
[secularism isn't religion, but the lack of it]

> You're claiming that since vanilla ice cream is not
> chocolate ice cream, it's not ice cream. Nonsense,
> it's just another flavor.

"How can secularism be a religion when it amounts to a complete disinterest in all things spiritual?"

No, it's more like discussing your hair color when you have shaved your dome bald. Just because you aren't exhibiting any doesn't mean you don't have any.

Man is a physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual being. A disinterest and neglect of your physical person (as some intellectuals have exhibited) would not make you unphysical. Secularism is a system of belief in the spritual realm consisting of denial of content or relevance to your life.

Sharpening debating skills
Creighton Beryll, you should start a blog. You make some decent arguments (not that I agree...). Thanks for joining and engaging. I appreciate the practice and sharpening you are providing for some of our readers.

For those who insist in going at it one-on-one with Creighton Beryll, move it to a blog--your taking the conversation off topic.

Josue
Moderator

Taking the Lord's Name in Vain...
is *not* about speaking or typing the name of God. It is about invoking it for vain (selfish) objectives.

Unfortunately, that includes a large number of self-proclaimed Christians, who pray for whatever *they* think is important, instead of trying to find out what *God* thinks is important -- and it probably isn't about aunt Mabel recovering from colitis at the local hospital. I'll bet God finds those prayer vigils really annoying.

But, CB, I cannot agree with you. Christians are not supposed to keep their light hidden under a barrel. They are supposed to shout it from the mountain tops, and integrate it into their daily lives, including public and political activities.

There is *no* "separation of church and state" in this country, and the founders knew that. What they provided was "non establishment" and "free excercise" clauses -- government cannot establish an official religion, and, government cannot prevent anyone from practicing their religion. The founders were quite openly religious, and liberally incorporated their faith into their legislative activities.

Jefferson's much touted "wall of separation between church and state" was a private response to a church group requesting government funds. He said no, that would amount to "establishment". His words are frequently misinterpreted. And even if he meant exactly what people think he said, his personal opinion is not law in any case.

RE: Sir Michael to Creighton Beryll
Sir Michael writes:

> Congratulations! Now you know what Paul means when he wrote
> to the Galatians that the Law of God is written in man's
> heart, also known as the "conscience" and "natural law."

"That would be the law of the Christian God, of course."

I think you want to backtrack. You were writing about Prager's series about Judeo-Christian ethics and how you found yourself agreeing with the ethics without the imput of religion. My comment was illumination, not disagreement.

Secularism is a Religion
CB:
>How can secularism be a religion when it >amounts to a complete disinterest in all things >spiritual?

You are either with God or against God. By being against God, you have made your own religion or idol of secularism.

See John 12:46, where Jesus says:

I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

You are either in spiritual darkness or you are in spiritual Light. If you avoid the decision, you are choosing yourself, rather than God.

Jesus also said in John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Try reading the book, "Case for Christ" it gives arguements for Christianity written by a former non-believer who set out to proof that Christianity was false and ended up finding out the opposite.





Fergus and Creighton
Sir Michael's initial comment to Creighton contained three very good arguments as to why religion is indeed a valid part of this discussion:

1) ...discussing life and death issues, especially discussion of moral and ethical conduct during war, is exactly the place for metaphysics.

2) It is the basis of our enemy's motivations, after all.

3) It is the basis of our culture, way of life, and system of government.

Creighton's arguments since then have not at all been logical. It is quite clear that he writes many things to avoid having to deal with rational thinking, lest he be forced to more fully consider his "vague, nondenominational conception of a supreme being."


The Topic?
Gee, the beginning of the article talks about the Pope's remarks and the Muslims' reaction.

Then it talks about virtues, double-standards, and morality.

The Pope was specifically talking about reason, religion, and behavior. He was specifically talking about not separating reason and religion.

The Muslims want to convert us to their religion or, failing that, kill us.

How is it again that religion is off topic?

World Opinion
The source of the treat-the-thugs-with-kindness movement has its genesis in so-called "world opinion" as characterized by Colin Powell's coming-aboard letter about what the world will think of us as we bend over backward [avoiding Muslim scat] to be humane. Political correctness and multiculturalism are two sides of the same coin, and will, unless reversed, bring about the destruction of the West. Indeed, it is full underway now and our time grows exceedingly short.

bones
You wrote:

"Sir Michael's initial comment to Creighton contained three very good arguments as to why religion is indeed a valid part of this discussion:

1) ...discussing life and death issues, especially discussion of moral and ethical conduct during war, is exactly the place for metaphysics.

2) It is the basis of our enemy's motivations, after all.

3) It is the basis of our culture, way of life, and system of government."

1. Really? Always? So whether Jesus is the One True God, or whether Allah chose Mohammed to be his instrument, and the debate between those topics, is relevant to whether my ailing mother should have radical surgery, radiation, or chemo, or some combination of all three, to treat her throat cancer?

You might want to rethink such an absolutist statement.

2. The basis for our enemy's motivations is onloy relevant if you want to make an argument that, depending on which version of God you are invoking, it might be morally defensible to pilot commercial airlines full of civilians into skyscrapers.

Do you wish to make that argument?

3A. Agreed, it is the basis of our culture. But we are not discussing our culture here, we are discussing policies to deal with attacks on our culture.

3B. I don't think you can agree that religion is the basis for "our way of life." It is the basis for YOUR way of life, certainly. I would argue that there are many who live in this country, who support our policies, for whom Jesus is in no way the basis of their way of life.

3C. Jesus is not THE basis for our system of government. The basis for our system of government is found in many sources, Christianity certainly being one of them, but others being the structure of the Roman Republic (which pre-dates Jesus) and English Common Law (based in its turn to a great extent on the laws of the Saxons, who were pagans).

That said, I would argue that the elements of Christianity that most influenced our system of government were those least having to do with Jesus.

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's" was the philosophy of Jesus regarding government.

Really is a stretch?
FergusMacLennan writes:

Creighton, Walter, Donaldd

WALTER, SIR MICHAEL, ET AL: Since policy decisions of the United States government in regard to the world are the Topic, religion really *isn't* a necessary component of the discussion. I can see how you all see things through that prism, but to say that "all things are of God" really is a stretch.

Fergus,
The whole struggle in the mideast is a struggle between Jewish/Christian belief and the belief of Islam. Islam is trying to overtake the Western Civilization with its Judeo-Christian ideals.

Most people have their heads in the sand with ideas of "talking to them", but when one of the beliefs of Islam is it is OK to lie to the infidels, then talking will get you nowhere except "dead" or converted.

Iran is planning on dominating the Mideast and I personally think that Bush decided to surround Iran to keep them under control or in position to operate if needed.

We are in a struggle against Islam: Their religion does not allow for peaceful co-existence with a secular government. It is peaceful until it reachs a point that it gains the advantage. In Europe with declining birth rates, Islamic populations will overtake the natives in 30-50 years. Can you imagine an Islamic Europe? England is already having problems and changing their laws to meet the demands of the Islamic population.

It is not a peaceful religion! Read some the material on http://www.islamworld.net/#jihad

Religion and Politics
I don't know about the rest of you Christians, but Roman Catholics have a DUTY to voice their ideas within the political arena including trying to help politicians form their consciences. Which is why people like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry SHOULD be excommunicated and especially denied the Holy Eucharist. THey are blaspheming the faith when they refer to themselves as Catholic, when they are only nominal Catholics. If they don't want to play by the rules, they shouldn't be in the club...they only confuse diligent seeking persons within the context of catholicism. I cannot separate who I am with what I do....

Walter, focus here
1. I never said that Christianity is irrelevant to our struggle with the Middle-East; I would in fact agree with you that Islam vs. Judeo-Christian tradition is an issue in the Middle East.

NOTE: *An* issue. It is not the only issue. Also at issue is Islam vs. Western secularism, Western liberal ideals (like democracy, women's rights, freedom of speech, etc.) ALSO at issue is moderation in Islam vs. takfiri, Wahhabist Islam.

2. Demonstrating that Christianity and the definition of God is relevant to radical Islam is NOT the same thing is demonstrating that "'all things are of God.'"

Again, if you want to prove the latter thesis to me, then show me how the Nature of God is relevant to my mother's health care decisions, radical surgery vs. chemo vs. radiation.

Or show us how, to use Creighton's excellent example, those issues relate to the question of which brand of WEED-WHACKER to purchase the next time I am at Wal-Mart.

Or please simply concede that questions of religion really are more relevant to some topics than others.

Speaking of religion....
did you see the left's jesus return....
in the form of Bill Clinton??
Church and State are in a panic!!

English common law
Fergus,

3C. Jesus is not THE basis for our system of government. The basis for our system of government is found in many sources, Christianity certainly being one of them, but others being the structure of the Roman Republic (which pre-dates Jesus) and English Common Law (based in its turn to a great extent on the laws of the Saxons, who were pagans).

1) Fergus, the Roman Republic pre-dates the birth of Jesus , but He is eternal and the Jewish law goes back 1500 years before His birth.

2) English Common Law had its beginnings with the Saxons, but they were gradually Chrisitianized over several hundred years before William the Conqueror got there in 1066. You can see the influence of Christianity just by reading the common laws from the 800s and 900s.

3) Sorry to hear about your mother, I will be glad to pray for her and that she will have a speedy recovery.

puzzlement
The column starts by noting that there was more contraversy about the comments by the pope than violence by muslims in response. What is surprising about this? Is there really a contraversy about the violent response by muslims. I had assumed everybody was critical of it. Is the lack of people defending muslim vandals a problem? Because I don't see how one is going to generate contraversy if noone in the west is willing to take the other side of the issue.

Outlawing values : CB
Christianity could not be incorporated into laws without forcing an establishment. If I told you to give your money to Christianity, where would you go? Answer: a human establishment of that religion. Which is why the anti-establishment clause exists. Stopping politicians from using faith against the populace.

Christian VALUES on the other hand ARE core to this country, despite modern viewpoints to the contrary. If you wish to sell us on Muslim values, please start now. If Christian values are flawed, please tell us how?

NOTE: not all values are made into law. Adultery is against Christian values but not illegal. Murder ,theft and lying in court(false witness) is illegal.

I think you confuse Faith with Values. It appears like your faith is in secular values though...

Fantastic column,
Dr.Sowell!
Flagwaver, in regard to Bill Clinton, it is fortunate for poor Chris Wallace that Bill is no longer The POTUS with the long arm of the Federal Government to use at his will to exact revenge on anyone who dares cause him an "uncomfortable" moment. What an ego that sociopath has!

Donaldd, my dear SPELLCHECK is critical for rants and raves! Addicks :D

Disappointment
As a long time admirer of Dr. Sowell, I can only express my disappointment and sadness that he would betray true conservative values to support the torture of anyone under U.S. custody, even a terrorist. I expect as much from young punks like Lowry and Ponnoru, who probably don't remember the Cold War from a hole in the ground. But to have a conservative icon like Thomas Sowell sink to defending torture and belittling those who question it is a sad event indeed for conservatives in America.

Fergus
First, note that my quote of Sir Michael's comment contained the phrase "especially discussion of moral and ethical conduct during war." Indeed, a discussion of religion may indeed be quite relevant on how you and your family deal with your mother's throat cancer. However, today we're talking about our various attitudes toward a war against the violent adherents who cling to a particular religion. Also, how was this statment absolutist? To suggest that religion plays a role in our understanding of ethics and morality is not an absolute statement. However, to suggest as you do that religion has *no* role in these fields is in fact an absolute statement.

In your response to point 2, you admit that a particular view of God might result in moral contradiction - specifically, that it can be considered morally defensible to pilot commercial airlines full of civilians into skyscrapers. Your argument here seems to mangify the importance of a discussion of the various moral implications of particular views of God. Wouldn't it follow, from what you said, that what we really need is a right view of God? The secular virture of tolerance doesn't do us much good here, as Dr. Sowell's article shows. So on what basis can we condemn the evils of Islam and commit ourselves to fighting against it?


You'll notice that all I had claimed in my post is that religion is a valid part of this conversation. Kathy's comment (way back at 9:15AM) was valid, and Crieghton's response to it was not.



All Things are of God
>Again, if you want to prove the latter thesis to me, then show me how the Nature of God is relevant to my mother's health care decisions, radical surgery vs. chemo vs. radiation.

Fergus,

First, God created you and your mother. He cares for both of you. As far as your mother's healthcare decisions, I would be praying for God's guidance on which way to go.

My wife and I are currently going thru the same thing with her sister. Her sister has terminal liver and pancreas cancer and she was a non-believer. Our prayers were for her spiritual salvation and her physical recovery. Her sister struggled with Jesus Christ being the only way, but God was able to open her heart to the Truth and she received Jesus Christ as her savior. She decided to undergo chemo treatment, but that did not help. She is in severe pain that is keep under control only with morphine. We think she will die by the end of October, unless God steps in, but we are okay if He doesn't since she is now a believer.

Second,
All things are of God, it just depends on whether you want to see it or not. The two weedeaters were made by man, who was created by God. The beautiful sunset is God's painting for us; the trees, animals, everything were created by God. How do I know that God created them, by the same reasoning that I knew that someone made the weedeaters. You see a building, you know there was a builder. You see a painting, you know there was a painter, You see the world around us and you know there was a Creator.

Pray that your mother recovers and that you and your family become believers.



Dear Walter
Such beautiful Truth that you write! I appreciate reading it.
I very recently was privileged to be an instrument for God to use at the conversion of my nephew,when he freely professed his faith in the Lord-
it was the last thing that he did, he was taken up to Heaven 12 days later, after falling into an irreversible coma due to a massive stroke.
He was only 26 years old.
Knowing he became a believer sure does take the sting out of death....

Whoah! Hold It!
GHH, it is a common insinuation from the left that if you say that terrorists do not qualify under the Geneva convention, that we support torture. In the article I just re-read, I did not see anywhare that Dr. Sowell promotes torture.

I think our very nature would prevent us from resorting to torture that involved any significant risk of permanent physical or psychological damage, even to our enemies -- which already puts us on the moral high ground, compared the the (literal) cut-throats that we are dealing with.

That is not to say that some rogue investigator would never cross a line, but we tend to prosecute those types. But we are never going to get useful information out of our sworn enemies if we never even take them outside their (let alone our) comfort zone.

It's just drama!
Millions of Americans truely believe that it wasn't terrorist hijackers but the Bush govt. that brought down the twin trade towers. They also believe that murderous Islamic gangs pose no real danger to them, but do make for terrific TV. They couldn't find Geneva or Rome on a map and have no interest in hearing from the Pope or anyone else that does not include a cashiers check or a good beat. The hardest thing they've ever done is show up on time for hamburger duty and divorce court. They whine and snivel their way through their lives and have no use for anything that is not 'fun'!

But enough of them may find time to vote to kill us all!


The few who can read well enough to understand complex sentences have heros who speak of feelings rather than fact. They gravitate to websights and news sources that see conspiracy everywhere, but not in the left's endless denunciation of all that brought this nation to greatness. No canard is too vile when it is directed towards their own country. For all practical purposes they are leftist media-made automatons; sad, spiritless shells whose only use is to be brought out every few years to dance and prance about for their liberal/socialist masters.
Dr. Sowell speaks to his choir and we sing back; but do we evangalize? Do we wander the streets in search of lost, soulless liberals? Or do we argue among ourselves about the number of Clinton "bobbleheads" that can dance upon the head of a bobby pin?
We would, I'm sure, like to believe that the brilliantly written conservative based columns we read and our 'learned reactions' of course, reach the eyes and minds of the misguided where miraculous conversions suddenly occur and newly minted conservatives march forth. But I'm afraid that I am a cynic. I see the words of clear thinkers such as Dr. Sowell only bouncing off of the un-informed's shell of mass ignorance and complete indifference.
I don't see enough conservatives 'walking the walk' only blathering the blather. Too many of us seem to be engaged in some sort of mindless media game where those that score the best literary points win the right to die at the hands of the jihadists first.
If America's peace, liberty and freedom were a religon we would all now be poised at some stench filled arena's door, believers and non; and at circus maximus only the Lions and tigers dine well.
But be reassured any lazy conservative or errant liberal these words should reach, It's not real. It's just drama.

one question for my $#^% senator McStain
1: What country do you see a chance of the USA going to war with in the next 20 years that will honor the geneva convention?

jerubaal, can you name one person
jerubaal, can you name one person captured by these jihadists who was accorded the treatment spelled out in the Geneva Convention? If so, was that an exception? Have they shown the least reluctance to behead, rape, and torture in light of our actions against wayward troopers?

If we can't use reasonable methods that intimidate them enough to cooperate, while sparing them horrible torture, then the only choices are to turn them over to governments who have lesser scruples or warehouse them and absorb the spilled blood of fellow Americans.

Frankly I find a disconnect between the lefties who so greatly lament each and every combat death and simultaneously seek to tie the hands of those fighting the war.

rivenburg
you've touched on the point that I cannot connect.
The trust that we would have to gather up-- the treatment of captives being proportional--is a trust that I do not have.

Gurky
You do that by making friends, the same method that I find works in evangelism.

I've got a social liberal friend doubting global warming and turning to traditional values already. It takes years, though.

Handy
Are you telling us that you actually have a job??

Don't you see it?
1. Muslims never intended to show that the Pope was wrong. They rioted and killed and burned to show that he was right. Ditto all other Muslim protests.

2. Most of the world "gets it". Very few people actually believe that Islam is a peaceful religion. In the minds of "peaceful" Moslems (those forced into the religion by threat of violence), most Europeans, and a large number of Americans, the Islams have already won.

3. To that large majority of people, struggle against terrorism is pointless. So why keep on saying that Islam is a peace-loving religion? That's what you say to the guys holding a nuclear bomb over your head! Their message is, “Shaddup, or you’ll get us all killed!”

"For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world's rulers of the darkness of this age, and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand." Ephesians 6:12-13.

This war only appears to us to be flesh against flesh. We can only fight it in the Spirit. Who will join with me in praying for our leaders (of both parties) for the armor of God, so that they may stand against evil?

p.s. For those of you on the Lamb's side, don't worry. I've read the back of the book--we win!

Walter
Well yes, in that sense, "all things are of God" is true enough.

But it would be equally as true that steel is a crucial element in the War on Terror. Steel, after all, is used in almost every gun currently in use. It is used in artillery. It is used in the tools that terrorists use to build their IEDs. It is found in missiles, tanks, warships, airplanes. Steel is everywhere; one cannot imagine how the terrorists could attack us without steel.

Would that justify lengthy discussions on my part of metallurgy?

Or how about going on about the importance of oxidation? After all, oxygen is just as systemically important.

You need to focus on the concept of relevance to the discussion, when you say things like "there is no such thing as "secular issues in secular terms". All things are either of God or not of God."

Handy's world
Reading your post I am convinced you have no idea whatsoever what Christianity is about.

"Those religious zealots all preach that men are evil, and that only their particular version of god is good. "
Wrong again. Human has the capacity for evil, but the potential for good. God determines what is morally good or evil, not man. The other alternative sets yourself up as judge(God).

"Religious proselytizers are always tugging at our sleeves to bow down to the latest charlatan who will save us from the demons among us."

No service I have ever attended asked me to bow down to any charlatans. This is nonsensical prattle spoken from the mouth of ignorance.

"Creighton Beryll has done such an admirable job of defending secularism or apathism that he has been irrationally attacked by dogmatists of every stripe."

Funny how these are 'irrational attacks':
1. there is no reason for mans ability to reason
2. that Jesus WAS here 2000 years ago and answered his questions, he just doesn't like the answers
3. Secularists get their info from other men just like Christians do

"I mean, if there is one true God, why did he create Muhammad after he went through all that trouble to create Jesus?"

Its called free will. Without it we are just marionettes. Free will also allows you to shun Him.

Your depths of ignorance are fairly staggering. You speak of religion as if from some bad B-Flick.

In the end the only statement you(and Creighton) can truthfully make is:
I got my wisdom from men other than those in the Bible.
Which is no less a choice than a Christian,Muslim or Jew has made.

How about educating yourself on a topic before posting this prattle?

SLOOPY!!! WHERE ARE YOU?
Do I win anything? I beat Handy to the punch!

Oops
I mean Buck2, not Handy. Let's see if I beat anyone else.

Fergus
oxidation rarely has anything to do with oxygen.

jerubaal

Re: "SLOOPY!!! WHERE ARE YOU?
Do I win anything? I beat Handy to the punch!"


10 POINTS to jerubaal! And a bonus of 5 points for being the first to score!!!

jerubaal
I should mention that the board has currently taken under consideration the fact that your win was against a 'liberal' who chooses to call himself buck2, and is debating the possibility of deducting 3 points from your score.

Apparently, some members are arguing the validity of your win based soley on this concept:

'How bright can this guy possibly be?'


*UPDATE*

It has been pointed outed, (correctly) that if the intellectual aptitude of the 'liberal' in question is taken into consideration, it may well be possible that no points could ever be awarded, thus nullifying the entire competition.

Your 15 points stand!

Re: Sharpening debating skills

Josue writes:

> Creighton Beryll, you should start a blog. You make some
> decent arguments (not that I agree...). Thanks for joining
> and engaging. I appreciate the practice and sharpening you
> are providing for some of our readers.

Thanks. I appreciate that.


> For those who insist in going at it one-on-one with
> Creighton Beryll, move it to a blog--your taking the
> conversation off topic.

> Josue
> Moderator


I've been posting to the Townhall.com comments-on-columns forums
for two or three months now, and this is the first time I've seen
any suggestion that the forums are moderated -- or have encountered
anyone who claimed to be a moderator, for that matter. Indeed, the
purpose of the red flag buttons would seem to be to automate the
process and preclude any need for actual, flesh-and-blood moderators.

One of the more interesting aspects of these exchanges is seeing
how they drift. Sometimes the focus evolves to encompass aspects
of the original subject matter that might at first glance seem ir-
relevant to the original topic, or at least tangential to it, but
on further reflection are valid meta-issues.

And that's part of the fun. What's the harm, really? Anyone is
free to try and influence the course of the discussion by nudging
it back in the direction they believe it should be going, or to
ignore the drift entirely. In any event, there are new columns
to comment on every day, and we'll all move on from this thread
soon enough.


-CB-


Men Of Reason, Men Of Faith


Handy writes:

> I believe in man. Belief in "gods" has not led to much progress.
> Surely, your god must be mankind's enemy.


"Man is quite insane. He wouldn't know how to create a maggot, and
he creates gods by the dozen." -- Montaigne

Perhaps it's perfectly rational and non-contradictory that a belief
in God can be manifested in the belief that God intends for us to
figure things out for ourselves?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed
us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their
use." -- Galileo Galilei



-CB-

Re: Fergus and Creighton


bones writes:

> Sir Michael's initial comment to Creighton contained three very
> good arguments as to why religion is indeed a valid part of this
> discussion:

> 1) ...discussing life and death issues, especially discussion of
> moral and ethical conduct during war, is exactly the place for
> metaphysics.

Those issues can easily be discussed and debated without viewing
them through a religious/metaphysical lens. People do it all the
time. That was implicit in my response to Kathy: only the devout
insist on looking at everything through the lens of their religion.
But since the devout have the ability to set that lens aside, and
since secular people don't have the lens to begin with, it makes
sense that we try to communicate in our shared lexicon.


> 2) It is the basis of our enemy's motivations, after all.

That's our enemy's weakness, not his strength. Our enemy beheads
people, too. Should we emulate that as well?


> 3) It is the basis of our culture, way of life, and system of
> government.

No it isn't. This country is a product of the Enlightenment, not
of Christianity or any other religion. The Founding fathers were
deists, not Christians.


> Creighton's arguments since then have not at all been logical.
> It is quite clear that he writes many things to avoid having
> to deal with rational thinking, lest he be forced to more
> fully consider his "vague, nondenominational conception of a
> supreme being."

That's a howlingly tendentious spin on what I've written, I have
to say. And it's interesting that you describe religious hocus-
pocus as "rational thinking," when by definition it is anything
but.


-CB-


CB
I really didn't want to continue writing on this old thread, but I wanted to make just one more point. You yourself said that in your thinking, your view of God is contained within a "vague, nondenominational conception of a supreme being." This is inherently irrational.

Let me explain. Either your conception of God is vague because 1) you refuse to think about God, or because 2) you believe that God is unknowable.

If 1 is the case (as I presumed, perhaps wrongly) then your unwillingness to think about God is, in fact, an unwillingness to apply rational thought to God.

If 2 is the case, then you believe rational thought about God to be impossible.

In either case, your conception of God is void of "rational thought". This is true whether it is due to design or to determined ignorance.


A person's view of God has profound implications into their views of other things. This is true whether you are a muslim, Christian, or secularist. Treating all things as if there is no God is just as much of a "lens" as is treating them as if there is a God. And refusing to consider the implications your view of God has in your worldview is not rational.

Walter
I come to the party late but wanted you to know I understand what you said about Christianity being simply what IS versus religion being man-made rituals & dogma.

Religions rely on blind faith for the most part. I truly believe Christianity is a logical conclusion based on all that we know about the totality of existence.

Though we take some criticism in a public forum, I have been pleased with the number of people here that share our trust in Jesus. Being able to speak out here in anonymity makes it easier to be honest and open than the workplace or social gatherings.

There are a lot of quality people here and I see it in their posts whenever I take a look at TH.

I have to confess, though, it's still more fun to argue with the libs. For all the libs & aethiests who post here: I argue & call people names but wish you no ill will when I turn off the computer.


Re: CB

bones writes:

> You yourself said that in your thinking, your view of God
> is contained within a "vague, nondenominational conception
> of a supreme being."

Yes. In other words, I'm inclined to believe that there's a
supreme being of some sort -- a Great Hairy Thunderer, Cthulhu,
the Flying Spaghetti Monster, call him/her/it what you will. The
way I see things, the various religions are probably much like
the blind men with the elephant.


> This is inherently irrational.

It's a bit much to call me irrational when I hadn't even had
a chance to respond at that point, don't you think?


> Let me explain. Either your conception of God is vague because
> 1) you refuse to think about God, or because 2) you believe
> that God is unknowable.

> If 1 is the case (as I presumed, perhaps wrongly) then your
> unwillingness to think about God is, in fact, an unwillingnes
> to apply rational thought to God.

> If 2 is the case, then you believe rational thought about God
> to be impossible.

> In either case, your conception of God is void of "rational
> thought". This is true whether it is due to design or to
> determined ignorance.

There's a third option, which you overlooked:

3) That *the application of rational thought* can lead one to
the conclusion that God is unknowable.


> Treating all things as if there is no God is just as much of
> a "lens" as is treating them as if there is a God. And
> refusing to consider the implications your view of God has
> in your worldview is not rational.

But I don't treat things as if there's no God. I believe that
there are objective qualities of right and wrong, good and evil,
even if I don't necessarily subscribe to those associated with
any particular religion. As the Heinlein character Lazarus Long
put it, "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily.
All other 'sins' are invented nonsense." That being said, I
believe God is unknowable. All humans can do is speculate.



-CB-


CB
I don't understand why you bother thinking about God at all.

If you start from the suposition that we came into being through unguided, natural phenomena instead of being created - I see no reason to acknowledge any higher intelligence.

If it makes more sense that we were created by a God (my conclusion), then it follows that we were created for a reason and with a purpose. From there, it is reasonable that the creator would disclose our purpose and why he made us.

If we were created but the creator doesn't care what we do or what we worship, what's the point? Are we an experiment of some kind?


Further CB
Regarding sin as "hurting" other people- the hurt is very subjective. From the humanist postioin, the physical and mental wellbeing of the body and mind are paramount indicators of "hurt".

To God, yes- I'm speaking for him now - A person's "hurt" occurs to his soul, which exists for eternity. From his position, a child killed in an auto accident by a drunk driver causes pain to his own children (those being everyone involved in the accident). Yet, knowing the ones involved are not gone from existence and are now free of any pain and suffering for the remainder of their existence, carries infinitely greater importance.

On the other hand, if those involved in the accident rejected God while possessing physical life, the loss of their souls forever to eternal punishment is infinitely greater "hurt".

You have chosen to stake and risk all of eternity, if it exists, so that you can enjoy your physical life as you wish. The stakes are very high. You don't want to be wrong on this one. It your position, which as you agree, cannot be proven as accurate or inaccurate, so stong that you will have no regrets if you chose wrongly?

I find that hard to believe. I also shudder to think of those around you who you convinced to think as you do. Perhaps some of them are your family. Your children.

If you are wrong about God, you can blame yourself for what happens to them and you get to do it for an eternity.

There is more riding on your decision than any other you make in this life. Yes, you get to live it any lawful way you want. But your life doesn't affect only you.

If I were God, and I saw you feeding the poor and assisting with the needy every day of your life - but you took away my children by telling them I was some faricated concoction, I would think of you as the most vile person imaginable.

You are not vile. But I urge you to reconsider your position. Perhaps you don't give up as much in this physical life as you think. Perhaps the rewards God can give you far outweigh anything you give up.

I assure you, they do.

Best wishes



Josue
Just read your input. Will do.

CB
I'm not trying to say that you're an irrational person. Everyone has, at the very least, moments of irrationality. I'm simply asserting that your position that God is unknowable necessarily prevents rational thought about God. But I think you proved this yourself when you said that in your view "God" could be anything from a "great hairy thunderer" to a "flying spaghetti monster".

But, from your last post, I take it that our little dispute here is ultimately about one specific attribute of God: his knowability. I say that God has revealed Himself generally through his creation, and specifically through his Word (the Bible) and through his Son Jesus Christ. Which, in your view, does God lack - the ability to make Himself known, or the desire? Or couldn't He reveal Himself to whomever He desires? As Christ said to the Pharisees, "you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one."

I'll admit that there are difficulties with my position. Just because something is difficult does not mean it is false. These are complicated matters, and I have much yet to learn. But you should recognize that there are difficulties with your position as well. And to sneer at Christian beliefs as irrational "religious hocus-pocus" is very much unjustified.


I've enjoyed this discussion - thanks for it. If you respond to this, I'll read it, think about it, and probably disagree with it. :-) But I won't respond to it - I'll allow you the final word.



Next Pearl Harbor coming
Unfortunately, it is going to take a calamitous hit to get people here to wake up and decide to fight these people with everything we've got. Up to now we have fought all of these conflicts blindfolded and with both hands tied behind our backs, with our "friends" hiding in the bushes and sniping at our president, and with our own opposition party undermining our ability extract information from our enemies. A consolidated, WORLDWIDE effort led by America and the West could put most of these lunatics in the ground, behind bars, or send them to the hills in 6 months if the will were present. But the political will and strength to undertake this will only arrive after we lose a major city to a broken arrow nuke or dirty bomb. The enemy has the will, the means, and a virtually open door to walk right in and here and do it. It is only a matter of time. I hope it is not in my American city...or yours. The only justice would be if it happened in Europe where the heart of hypocrisy and appeasement beats.

Repeating mistakes
"Those in the United States and in other western nations who are urging dialogue with Iran are repeating the tragic mistakes of the 1930s that led to World War II." Absolutely Correct... read THE GATHERING STORM by Winston Churchill.

the words of Tony Blair
paraphrase:
when you judge a country, you need only look at how many people are trying to get in and versus how many are trying to get out.

No matter what the petty details are, in the big picture we must eliminate Islamic Fascism from the world before there can be any hope for peace.

THOSE PEOPLE SEE THE WORLD AS HOLDING ONLY 2 KINDS OF PEOPLE. THE HOUSE OF ISLAM WHERE SHARIA RULES, AND THE HOUSE OF WAR.

They believe they are commanded by Allah to conquer the house of war and convert it to the house of Islam.

Where there is no intelligent communication, force becomes necessary. And that is simply the case with those people.

The sooner the better for our side.
Amen.

MY MY MY
Dr. Sowell,
You never cease to amaze me. This is yet another well written article. I personally cannont understand the Democraps, MSM, and Islamic Facists. All three groups have no problems insulting me as a Christian, but to make a comment about either of them is punishable by death. Thank you for standing up for what I and so many others believe in.

Conservative RR

the week's revelations
Mr. Sowell is right again! What a pleasure to read. Intellectual and moral bankruptcy of anti-Americanism - you can not put it better. My only wish to American liberals is to drop them in the middle of Siberia in the middle of winter, withou bread or worm clothes, with Stalin's guns pointed to their necks. Instead of great Russian writers, poets and scientists, and pesants, of course. Let them smell their beloved Socialism in the tranches of Stalingrad. Or maybe they want full blown Communism - thet can be arrenged too.
They are the fifth column that enjoys every word against the President and our country. Beware of the fifth column that stabs you in the back!
Mr. Sowell should be America's voice of wisdom, can we create a position of the Wisdom Tzar?

the weeks revelations
Sorry for my spelling errors.
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