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Tuesday, September 19, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
Suicidal hand-wringing
by Thomas Sowell
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When you enter a boxing ring, you agree to abide by the rules of boxing. But when you are attacked from behind in a dark alley, you would be a fool to abide by the Marquis of Queensbury rules. If you do, you can end up being a dead fool.

Even with a nuclear Iran looming on the horizon and the prospect that its nuclear weapons will end up in the hands of international terrorists that it has been sponsoring for years, many in the media and in the government that is supposed to protect us have been preoccupied with whether we are being nice enough to the terrorists in our custody.

The issue has been brought to a head by the efforts of Senators John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham to get us to apply the rules of the Geneva convention to cutthroats who respect no Geneva convention and are not covered by the Geneva convention.

If this was just a case of a handful of headstrong senators, who want us to play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules while we are being kicked in the groin and slashed with knives, that would be bad enough. But the issue of applying the Geneva convention to people who were never covered by the Geneva convention originated in the Supreme Court of the United States.

Article III, Section II of the Constitution gives Congress the power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts, and Congress has specifically taken away the jurisdiction of the courts in cases involving the detention of illegal combatants, such as terrorists, who are not -- repeat, not -- prisoners of war covered by the Geneva convention.

The Supreme Court ignored that law. Apparently everyone must obey the law except judges. Congress has the power to impeach judges, including Supreme Court justices, but apparently not the guts. Runaway judges are not going to stop until they get stopped.

In short, the clash between Senator McCain, et al., and the President of the United States is more than just another political clash. It is part of a far more general, and ultimately suicidal, confusion and hand-wringing in the face of mortal dangers.

The argument is made that we must respect the Geneva convention because, otherwise, our own soldiers will be at risk of mistreatment when they become prisoners of war.

Does any sane adult believe that the cutthroats we are dealing with will respect the Geneva convention? Or that our extension of Geneva convention rights to them will be seen as anything other than another sign of weakness and confusion that will encourage them in their terrorism?

No one has suggested that we disregard the Geneva convention for people covered by the Geneva convention. The question is whether a lawless court shall seize the power to commit this nation to rules never agreed to by those whom the Constitution entrusted with the power to make international treaties.

The much larger question -- the question of survival -- is whether we have the clarity and the courage to go all-out in self-defense against those who are going all-out to destroy us, even at the cost of their own lives.

There are too many signs that we do not and those signs are visible not only in our political and judicial institutions but throughout American society and western civilization.

Sheltered for years from terrorist dangers that we so much feared after the September 11th attacks, many have come to act as if those dangers do not exist and that we now have the luxury of dismantling the means by which they have been held at bay this long.

In a country where all sorts of individuals and organizations tap into our personal computers and our computerized medical, financial and other records, some have gone ballistic over the fact that the federal government tries to keep track of who is being phoned by international terrorist organizations.

No amount of security precautions can protect us from all the thousands of ways in which terrorists can strike at times and places of their own choosing -- and eventually strike with nuclear weapons. Our only hope is to get advance information from those we capture as to where other terrorists are and how they operate.

Squeamishness about how this is done is not a sign of higher morality but of irresponsibility in the face of mortal dangers.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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Constant Vigilence
Mr Sowell's logic hits the mark again. I still do not understand how Geneva fits a group of idealogs who are 'heck-bent' on destroying us no matter what. I feel sorry for those who think we should pass a 'terrorist bill of rights'.

They scream about our rights being taken away via the Patriot Act, but are non-existent when laws of choice are implemented such as anti-smoking, cell phone usage, property zoning within neighborhoods, covenants, how much you can pay somone, how much you can charge rent, etc. are passed.

Enough! The unintended consequences of these laws are killing us. We must stand up for national security first and foremost otherwise, there are little freedoms to defend.


BigBelly
Your poignant post reminded me of the final moments of an old classic Paul Newman movie "Hombre". At the end, a vaquero dying at Newmans hand in the course of a suicidal shootout asks a bystander "What was his name? El hombre...what was his name?" "Why, John Russel" says the astonished uncaring bystander. Our soldier deserves to have his last full measure of devotion rewarded by name.

I'm Not Sure Congress is the Right Ones
Dr. Sowell suggests that the Court can be reined in by the Congress.

What, *our* congress? The self-same congress that loves nothing better than make power grabs and money grabs? The ones who never saw a Slab of Pork they didn't like?

I dunno. If we need to look to Congress for salvation, I think we're screwed.

A Step Further
Professor Sowell, you're truly a national treasure. I once again agree with everything in your column, but I would take it one step further. Not only should Geneva protections not be applied to (unlawful combatant) terrorists, but I also submit that they should pay a heavy price (Psych 101) for their refusal to abide by the Conventions regarding prisoners they capture. They should know that their cowardice and barbarity will be punished by harsh incarceration, aggressive interrogation (NOT torture), and possibly execution when they are no longer useful to us. Despite all the Islamofascist bluster about their willingness to die for their cause, we have broken many of them without even using physical or psychological torture. If many of these "die-hards" can be coerced into talking just by applying comparatively benign interrogation techniques, then wouldn't the promise of harsher treatment deter some of those "die-hards," and even more so the less-committed aspiring jihadis who are considering joining a terrorist group? That seems like the best way to "win their hearts and minds." Our goal should not be to make them like us - they never will - but to make them fear us. That is how the world has always worked until the latter part of the 20th century, and only then because American liberals have had the luxury of indulging their sense of moral superiority while sitting behind the overwhelming might of the U.S. armed forces they so despise.

I'd like to add that I was unaware that Congress had already "specifically taken away the jurisdiction of the courts in cases involving the detention of illegal combatants... who are not... prisoners of war covered by the Geneva convention." It is yet another scandalous chapter for the MSM that has either neglected or refused to mention this extremely important fact when "reporting" on issues surrounding terrorist detentions. They're absolutely shameless. (I also find fault with President Bush and members of Congress who could use the bully pulpit to publicize such facts but have chosen not to.) If anyone knows when Congress passed the law or where I can find a copy of it, please post the information here. My thanks in advance.

Handwriting on the wall
MENE, MENE, TEKEL PARSIM, was writen on the wall of king Belshazzar, of Babylon. Professor Sowell, like Daniel before him, is translating it to the Americans. We better take heed to it, before our "kingdom" is divided between "the Medes and the Persians", as it happened to Babylon. In fact, if we follow the lead of the so-called liberals, we will be torn appart and given away to the desert hyenas, who are always hungry (poor things!).

Lestat
Nice post. The unstable teenagers that form the bulk of our captures are indeed subject to changes of mood, the Stockholm syndrome, and the impact of consequences of poorly chosen actions. They are fairly good sources of information under sophisticate interrogation methods. I favor quick execution as provided in the Geneva convention for combatants in mufti, with commutation for reliable information. As a terror measure, the Pershing tactic of burial in pig guts, or maybe just the threat or simulation of same has an appeal.

Some people just can't face the grim reality that not all other inhabitants of this old globe have different priorities and problem solving techniques. They can't conceive of killing someone over a book, so they cling to the belief that no one else would either. They are so naive and frightened. The huge majority are doing their best to be good people. Too bad they are merely dangerous idiots.

WHAT HAPPENED TO JOHN McCAIN ?
Wasn't there once a time when McCain was in line with the right and considered a safe presidential candidate for the Republican party? Or has he always been this much of a bone head and I just missed it?

The only way the United States can successfully fight the war against terrorism is with the exact same rule that would apply in a street fight, and that one rule is very simple to remember...survival. If Senators McCain, Lindsey, Graham and anyone else who thinks differently, maybe they should offer to sit down with these religious thugs and ask them if they will play fair and allow themselves to be held accountable and abide by the rules of the Geneva Convention. Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.

Right on
Thomas Sowell issues another powerful missive. But who is listening? Can't believe this is the country I grew up in, and I am only 43. People will finally awaken after a nuke destroys a city or terrorists kill hundreds of school children somewhere. The disappointing thing is to think that this is the character of the country at this time (as well as avoiding social secuirty reform, spending reform, immigration reform, etc.). There's a train wreck coming down the track. Just maybe there remain enough highly talented and mature Americans to deal with it.

We play into the hands of the terrorists
when we argue about how they should be treated. Dr. Sowell is, as always, right on the mark but he stops one step short in his analogy of following the rules of boxing when confronted with a thug in a dark alley. To survive in that situation short term, using whatever means necessary to defend oneself is correct. But to prevent future attacks, the assailant must be humiliated and taught plainly that the course of action he originally chose is absolutely a "no win" activity. Muggers mug because they normally get away with it. If the mugger was unceremoniously subdued and humiliated in front of his peers every time he tried mugging someone, he would not long continue the activity. If every terrorist group and country supporting terrorism were to be punished, whether economically or militarily for each act of terrorism, it would stop. The price would be too great.

Right now, McCain and the lefties in the Senate are like the bad parent who keeps threatening the child who is acting out. "Don't you do that! Do that again and I'm going to spank you!" All the while the child knows nothing is going to happen. He's heard it all before and nothing happened except he got away with whatever he wanted to do. The parent who has control over the children is the one who has made it clear that threats are not idle. Torture is unecessary. Punishment is absolutely necessary.

NRALifer,
You forgot:
0. Cigarette?
But wait. We probable wouldn't do that anymore. That might lead to lung cancer.

Dr. Sowell does it again
I hav written a post about the Terrible Trio, and Dr. Sowell stole my thunder about SCOTUS.

IF the Congress had any guts, they would go after the justices that ignored a law that kept them from hearing cases about the Gitmo detainees. But we know that they won't do it, because they lack the nerve to do their jobs and to uphold their consitutional mandate. Besides which, it's an election cycle...can you imagine the 'bad' publicity from the NYT or WaPo? These guys shiver with fear that the media will say bad things about them, so they will do nothing to put the media spotlight on themselves.

And Brian, I understand the sentiments that President Jackson was conveying, but what type of lawlesness would ensue if the executive branch started enforcing only the rulings of the court that they agreed to? How would meeting judicial lawlessness with executive lawlessness be in the best interests of the nation?

protecting our soldiers
It seems to me that effective intelligence is the most critical factor needed to protect our soldiers, as well as civilians. The US has not had effective intelligence since before WWII. When is the US going to look at that question in its entirety?

Liberal Weenies
John McCain and Colin Powell need to switch parties and partner up with Nancy Pelosi. This Mister nice guy and political correctness is going to get us all killed.

What a bunch of tough guys you are!
My, my, what a pack of yipping toothless dogs you little boys are. I would be afraid for the future of this country if I thought any of you had the brains to figure out how to vote. I know you must be brainless from your gross misinterpretation of current events. Do any of you get your news from any sources other than Fox or Limbaugh? I think not.

Suicidal hand-wringing
In my opinion, all this carping over Article 3 of the Geneva Convention is a
bunch of political bull shit.........if the politicians and other
self-serving bastards would keep their noses out of military business,
intelligence collection could proceed and America would be safer...there are
plenty of bench-marks to patrol the actions of military members and hold
them accountable for violation of UCMJ.

Why is there a need to clarify Article 3? Because the politicians, liberal
media, anti-war pukes, world enemies, are constantly pole vauling over mouse
turds...they will do anything, say anything, raise any minor issue to the
level of treason...take Murtha...calling Marines guilty of "murder" before
any investigation is even started....he11 the troops don't know what to do,
intelligence officers don't know how far to go (McCain's previous
legislation doesn't do it) for fear of being brought before an Article 32
investigation for what they thought was their duty...in my opinion Senators
Warner, McCain, Graham, Collins and General Powell are playing into the
hands of the Islamic fascist killers.

If McCain is pushing some issue you can bet there's a snake in the grass
somewhere....McCain is an opportunistic political skunk in my
opinion....Warner is the only one that disappoints me, Graham's a Ted
Kennedy in disguise and Collins is in la la land...........I hear Senator
Snowe is now part of the group...another la la land member.

No way, no how does the Geneva Convention apply to barbaric, insane, Islamic
fascist killers that owe allegiance to no sovereign nation, nor wear the
uniform of any legitimate military force, nor are accountable to anyone, not
even their own religion....

For General Powell to suggest that America has to shore up our behavior to
justify the "moral highground" as compared to a bunch of killers that
decapitate, desecrate, mutilate human bodies, is a stain on the General and
America. Powell and most all the rest are "globalists" and ring their hands
as to what the world will think...it's time we forget about the world and
take a lesson from President Truman...he bit the bullet used the atomic bomb
and ended the war....American leaders today need to take a similiar
attitude.

To give these Islamic killers the time of day is too give them recognition
as a legitimate entity.....and worse yet give them access to classified
information...even United States citizens have a hard time using classified
information in their defense.........now Warner and crew want to"ensure the
rights" of terrorists are protected and give them access to classified
information...........this is pure crap.

Something is terribly wrong......maybe I'm the one that has lost common
sense.......it's more than depressing...either my head or those that want to
coddle Islamic terrorist has straw for brains


Kim
Evidently, you disagree with Doctor Sowell and the other posters on this column. I, for one, enjoy honest and reasoned debate of the points made on this forum, so I would be most appreciative if you would please list where you disagree and please cite the facts which underlie your opinions. That would lead to a very engaging and mutually edifying discussion. Further, I would love to hear what all the other media besides Fox and Limbaugh are saying about this.

Not to foster any more fear in you, but I am a Republican, and I do not live in Palm Beach County, Florida. Therefore, I long ago figured out how to vote. It was quite easy, especially for someone of my innate intelligence, education, and erudition.

So please respond with your reasoning. If you don't, I will be forced to assume you are a yipping toothless dog, and a little girl to boot. A dog and a little girl? Why that would make you a . . . No! Not true. You'll respond civilly. I hope.

Kim
Thank you for displaying your own brainlessness for all to see. Apparently, rational argument or commentary is beyond your scope. Too bad; so sad!

Kristian Menchaca & Thomas Tucker
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005449.htm
And Kim -- What "gross misrepresentation of current events" are you talking about? Your name calling and insults are typical lib reactions. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker were beheaded and tortured. That's a fact.

Torture not effective??
Kimberly, I have seen this statement that you have made repeated endlessly by the left. Torture is very effective if applied appropriately.

Officer cadets at the military academies are often subjected to "torture" during their education. This often consist of being placed in a cold, cement cell, naked, with a light constantly shining and being fed a diet high in protein. They may be subjected to what we now call water boarding or otherwise exercised for 15 minutes out of an hour, every hour. Believe it or not, but these simple techniques can elict compliant behavior in the strongest person within 24 hours. To get more detailed information drugs and/or electricity may be used after a period. The end result is information. That is used to save lives. The average American captured by our enemies goes through a lot more than this if you bother to read their accounts.

If you are dealing with bad people, you have to be bad yourself. Being nice does not get you anywhere.

Excellent article.
The best the left can come up with is to call anyone who wants to take a hard line against our enemies names like "coward" or "scaredy cat", and to ignore the fact that our soldiers are already tortured when they are captured. The moral high ground belongs to whoever wins the war and rewrites history in his own favor. Favoring the moral high ground over victory itself only ensures that history will never see you holding the moral high ground because your enemies wrote you off as the evildoers as they sat on your charred corpses and wrote their version of the history of the war for future generations to be taught as truth. At some point common sense has to enter the equation. Unfortunately the left refuses to see that because of the political implications involved. "Get Bush" is the only....I repeat ONLY consideration the American left is capable of comprehending.

Thomas Sowell, I luv ya man!
Once again Sowell cuts through the claptrap and gets to the chase. We are in a war for the survival of this nation. We can't pussyfoot around with a bunch of bed-wetting liberals about how to wage war on cutthroats and savages. The fact that our political institutions are debating torture vs enhanced interrogation techniques vs the Geneva Accords is viewed by the enemy as an act of cowardice and weakness and will lead to more acts of violence against our troops, not less.

Keep it up, Mr. Sowell. We need you in the fight.

Terrorist Rights
As always, Mr. Sowell is mostly spot on but I take umbrage at the thought that Mr. McCain has anything approaching confusion or that he is merely "headstrong." Mr. McCain's EGO approaches (if it has not yet expanded to that point) maniacal. He is a meglomaniac incapable of seeing his own weaknesses nor the effects of his own ego. The fact that he might be the GOP choice for presidential candidate scares me silly. The chance that he might actually win fills me with dred. McCain chose this time and subject to oppose Bush because he thinks he can embarass Bush with a subject most believe he has experience but, as usual, he's showing no regard for anything else but his own personal power and glory. He isn't stupid nor negligent. He's merely self-interested above all else.

Dr. Sowell, as always
with his precise logic and insight, pin-points the problems with our spineless so-called leaders. Congress has indeed become gutless, afraid to do anything that might offend or go against world opinion.

With elections coming up, the security of our Nation takes a back seat to their personal agenda.

The United Nations meeting about to get underway this morning, should be interesting as President Bush address this Terrorist Club.

Kimberly
Once again, you're incoherence is mind-boggling. We, the U.S., are not trying to alter Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Cconventions. The Administration has simply asked congress to clarify what the limitation are as expressed in Article 3., so as to allow the CIA interrogators to follow the policy without the likes of you and Sens Durbin, Kennedy, Kerry, et al, trying to hang them for protecting this country.

We don't torture people. Gitmo is heaven compared to some environments in the Middle East. Abu Ghraib was a glorified fraternity hazing with sexual overtones thrown in. Would you rather that we not glean the info from KSM which saved lives by the use of water-boarding? Should we have said, "Mr. Kalid, if you don't want to tell us, its ok, but we thought we'd
ask anyhow?" Get real, loon.


Kim
It seems the other posters are beating around the bush with their comments, I'll try to cut right to the chase....you're an idiot. You're comments do not appear to serve any purpose other than to prove that point.
Democrats have proven to be the only ones that don't have a clue how to vote.
"...gross misinterpretation of current events." That is possibly the most idiotic statement that I have ever seen presented in a public forum. You are proof positive that there should be intelligence tests to vote. Just what are the "gross misinterpretations" that you accuse the "pack of yipping toothless dogs." Only a moron makes statements like that and than doesn't even bother to give a single example. Why don't you go back to the little kid’s forum, and come back when you're a little bit older and back up your statements.

Enemies ignore the Geneva Convention
Sen. McCain et al say that we must give the terrorists Geneva Convention rights [and more ] in order to insure good treatment of U.S. POWs in the future. This ignores the nature of our present Islamonazi enemies.

Sen. McCain et. al. ignore the fact that neither our
enemies in Korea [1950 -1953; North Korea and Communist China ]nor our enemies in Viet Nam [1963 -1975; North Vietnam, China, and the U.S.S.R.] treated U.S. POWs according to the
Geneva Conventions, even though the U.S. followed the Geneva Convention throughout the whole time.

Kim
Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you did reveal how deeply you think and the strength of your grasp of current events. I also appreciate how you cited the all the facts underlying your conclusions and demonstrated how ad hominem attacks are merely the bastion of the intellectually bankrupt.

A very fine post indeed!

Conduct of the war
This war is going to go on for a very long time and the chance are that most of it will be fought in a non-traditional field of battle. Since we are not going to face enemies in the form of standing armies representing countries we must decide how to best fight this war and what is the best long term plan to win the war. The normal rules will not apply but it would be a mistake to make up the rules as we go along which will end in the type of contraversy we have at the present. So it would be prudent to write the rules in a united way rather than having one branch of government define the rules and the other branches fight over them. The fighting over rules will play into the hands of the enemy so we must present a united front in both the rules of the war on hand and in the strategy for winning the war. And we must not fight the war in a piecemeal fashion but develope a master plan for winning the over all battle. The enemy must also be defined or named. Terrorism is too vague and Islam though it might be true is too broad so Radical Islam in any form might do which would be defined as those Muslims who believe that Jihad is the spread of their beliefs by terror and violence against all who are not Muslims. The master plan to win must be done on a broad front, economic, military and the propaganda war what some people refer to as hearts and minds. The war cannot be won without support from allies who also want to stem the tide of Jihad so going it alone is very unlikely to lead to victory. And if ever we have to invade a country it should not be done as a single event but as part of the master plan and the relationhsip to the master plan must be clear and the planning must be precise including the aftermath of having gained military victory which means we must prevent they type of inurgency that we see in Iraq. The war must also not be sidetracked by side issues like spreading Democracy. The goal should be the defeat of Islamic Radicalism in very form and everywhere it exists. If we want to spread Democracy that should be an entirely separate issue but it seems clear that Democracy must come from within nations whose people desire it. You cannot spread Democracy at the point of a gun. We should also not engage in war for "regime change." We might not like certain regimes but it is not our business unless they directly threaten us.

Kim and Kimberely
both demonstrate exactly what we've been seeing: they can't put up ANY kind of rational argument. Tearing down, name calling and innuendo is the best they can offer.

My Own Opinion
Great piece by Thomas Sowell. My own opinion on the matter can be viewed at my blog.

Suicidal Handringing
It is tough for me to believe that a man like John McCain, once a long term POW of the Viet Cong, does not bear some remnant of anger, resentment, or psycho-pain at his humiliation and brutal physical torture. A man does not forget those kinds of things.

So, what is behind McCains thinking that making nice to brutal Islamo-fascists who have already demonstrated their willingness to kill us, savagely if necessary, will either improve our safety or persuade them to act civilly?

I could understand it if he were running for sainthood rather than elected office, but insanity is not what we need in leadership and hopefully we will never have to make that choice for him.

At the same time, what drives that sycophantic Lindsey Graham? This is quite an act, Dobby (apologies to J.K.Rowling) meets McCain and becomes the McCain house elf. Even Dobby later became good so there is hope for Graham, too.

Since neither of these wisemen are paying any attention to our national security (Thank you, Dr. Sowell) the only recourse for Conservatives is to resolve to turn out in great numbers to support and vote for any candidate who values our freedom, our traditional culture, and willing to defend our way of life. The alternative is to be governed by Liberal Left extremists who will lead us closer to Socialism, weaken our defense against Islamic terrorism and purge conservative ideas as a factor of political discourse.

Bill



Donaldd
Oh please. Give me more than one instance in the past 30 years where an American soldier has been accorded treatment based on the Geneva Conventions. Captured(Kidnapped) American soldiers are constantly beaten, paraded in front of cameras, forced to make false statements, all in violation of the Geneva accords. This was occurring long before that the United Staes was accussed of anything. We won't even discuss how captured civilians are treated. The constant liberal whining that it's all our fault that they are mean is just pathetic. They'll like us when we WIN

how sad
I love how easy it is to get right wing wack jobs whipped into a frenzy. I find it quite amusing actually. The misinterpretation I refer to is the fact that the citizens among us who are resisting legalizing torture are not concerned in this case about soldiers who are captured by Islamic extremists. The Abu Ghraib affair pretty much guarantees that they will torture and execute their American captives. The purpose of the Geneva agreement was to attempt to reduce and hopefully eliminate the widespread use of torture. We all should be aware that it has had some success in achieving that goal. The reason that clear thinking civilized humans are against re-interpreting article 3, which is quite clear as it stands, is because it opens the door for any party to do likewise. This could have drastic consequences for our soldiers in the future. Also, since we Americans love to address the world from our position on the moral high ground, it would invite other countries to cite our example in their defence of their own practice of torure. The real reason for the major bush administration push on this issue is to cover their behinds. The Supreme Court has ruled their practices in this arena are illegal and they are genuinely fearful that they will lose contol of one or both houses of congess in November and be held accountable via impeachment, charged with crimes against humanity, etc. I can hardly wait for that eventuality :)

ps: I really love the way you big mouthed bushites jump to wrong conclusions like WMD's in Iraq or that I am a female.

our values
It is against our values to charge, try and convict (and execute)individuals without allowing them the ability to defend themselves. How many innocent people are we holding around the world in secret prisons? No one knows. Secret prisons, secret trials and secret evidence - isn't it self-evident that Osama has won if we allow ourselves to condon this type of system.

I agree that the Geneva convention probably does not apply to non-state terrorists, but how do we conduct a war against these people if we abuse the rights of people all around the world. We're not that type of callous people.

Shrinque - Please comment
Seeing Senator McCain's recent blatherings and knowing how the Geneva Convention - at least as far as the English Language was taught to me applies - can NOT apply to those at Gitmo, I have to wonder if McCain might be suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome."

Sir?

Tortured by the Torture Debate
I've gone through POW training. No, not the type of torture that occurs when I read Kimberly's posts, but in the US Army in 1965.

We were awakended in the barracks at 0-dark thirty hours and marched to an old WW II German POW camp. There, we were blindfolded, put in cells. Occassionally, someone would come in and beat us. As an enlisted man I suffered less than the officers. We were questioned but most of us gave the old "name, rank, serial number and date of birth" response. A small number, however, broke.

Torture is as torture does. I never went through what McCain did, as enlisted men were usually summarily executed by the VC and NVA.

PS: Bill, McCain was held by the North Vietnamese Army, not the Viet Cong. We were fighting two related but distinctly different military organizations. The VC were primarily guerillas and the NVA were regular army soldiers.

Ah, Mr. Sowell, Those are REBUB Senators
"The issue has been brought to a head by the efforts of Senators John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham to get us to apply the rules of the Geneva convention to cutthroats who respect no Geneva convention and are not covered by the Geneva convention."

Didnt anyone else notice that Mr. Sowell conviently leaves out the fact that each of the Senators he mentions are REPUBLICANS...

why did he do this one would ask?

He did it because he wants to lump anyone that has the audacity to question/criticize President
Bush's prosecution of the so-called GWOT as "anti-american traitors who aid and abett the enemy".

So in the end, its doesnt matter to the extremist on the right wing what your party affiliation is..like Bush said:

"youre either with us or against us"

BACK IN THE DAY
when our nation was fighting for it's life against enemies from both east and west, this government, our government left no stone unturned in the protection of it's citizens. Spies, sabatouers and sedionists were dealt with, let's say, harshly.
Citizens of this nation were interned and not just the Japaese. There were internment camps for radical elements of the German-American as well as Italian American radical elements of this country. Admittedly, the Japanse got the worst end of it because of the across the board internments. They were rightly remunerated by an act set forth by California senator S. I. Hayakawa. These people went on with their lives and did not let their bitterness cloud their love of this nation or the principles it stands for. Or if they did, they were not overt about it chose to give their children better lives than the ones they had.
From the inception of this nation starting with the Barbary pirates -echoes of Santanyana- we have never followed a line of appeasement. It was maximum force against maximum weakness. It is now the maxim that we use 'proportional response.' This is the new way to wage war. T#t for tat. At this rate this conflict will drag on longer than the Hundred Years War. Which, in fact, lasted 135 years.
As evidenced by some of the postings here, some of these people forget Daniel Berg, Leon Klinghoffer, the passengers on the Lockerbie flight and others. The present day savages that have chose to wage agressive and covert war on our society and way of life have been doing so for quite some time.
As evidenced by the fallout of the Pope's remarks, so far five churches have been burnt on the West Bank and Gaza and a Catholic nun has been murdered in Somalia. By the way, with her dying breath, she uttered in her native Italian, "forgive them." So much for the religion of peace.
Back in the day, the entire nation was mobilized and asked for some sacrafice. No meat Tuesdays.Entire industries going on war production footing. Gasoline rationing-imagine that in this day and age!- as well as blackouts,CD drills and other things that our parents and grandparents just saw as their part to play. And I'm not even talking about the millions of ordinary men and women who put their lives in harms way to defeat this enemy.
In the age of television, the people who make these 'torture' remarks on both side of the aisle look at this whole conflict as good guy gets wronged. Good guy gets going. Good guy vanquishes the evil foe. And now, a word from our sponsors.Speaking of which, this reminds me of a line from the film 'Breaker Morant' in which Harry Morant, explaining the bleak situation he and his two comrades find themselves in because of the conflict they are asked to fight intoned, "It's a new war, George, for a new century. We no longer fight regular troops. They are farmers. People from small towns. They shoot at us from houses. They shoot at us from paddocks. Some of them are women and some of them are children and some of them are priests. Welcome to the 20th century."
Welcome to the 21st century.

NRAlifer
Would you kindly restrict your responses to at least "War and Peace" length?

Re: Coercive Interrogation
It is not a question of using coercive interrogation or not using coercive interrogation. A parent sending children to their rooms until someone admits breaking the vase is (in a very small way) coercive interrogation. The techniques that are used to get information should be proportional to the importance of the information being sought. For example, I think interrogators may use much more coercive techniques on a master terrorist plotter who is plotting to kill thousands of innocent people than the interrogators can use on a criminal who is protecting the identity of an accomplice. It would be morally outrageous to not use extreme interrogation techniques (including waterboarding) to protect thousands of human lives. It would be equally morally outrageous for parents to use extreme interrogation techniques on their children when the children are reluctant to explain their negative actions.

Um.....
.....captured US soldiers and civiians were being tortured even before the frat boy games at Abu Ghraib, so even that desperate attempt to excuse our enemies actions is not valid. If only lefties would try as hard to excuse or explain away American actions as they do with the actions of our enemies, we'd really be kicking some a-s-s by now. Right now the propoganda war is the only thing holding us back, and the left has chosen to side with our enemy in that aspect of the war......

And ar least cons have to get whipped up into a frenzy.....for the leftist the frenzy is their default state of mind! ;)

Kim
Don't you know? Here the answer is: kill, no matter what the problem usually. Another profound statement is “Sowell is the greatest”. To his many fans, even when Sowell orders dinner it’s brilliant. When you choose to criticize any of his work you must carefully apply intellect and be certain of your facts. Take time to put it all together and when you are done, throw it all away. Sowell is never wrong. As for the rest of the gang here: Torture is either right or wrong. You can call it but you have to stick with it. State it clearly, how and why.

Wake up, Left Angle
Left Angle writes:
"Ah, Mr. Sowell, Those are REBUB Senators
Didnt anyone else notice that Mr. Sowell conviently leaves out the fact that each of the Senators he mentions are REPUBLICANS..."


Duh..THAT is the POINT. Of course many Dems are saying the same things. Here Mr. Sowell is pointing out the RINO's.

sloopy: Gee Whiz
you wrote:

"Duh..THAT is the POINT. Of course many Dems are saying the same things. Here Mr. Sowell is pointing out the RINO's."

So youre telling us that you people in here dont
know McCain, Warner and Graham are Republicans and Sowell has to point it out to you?

If so thats really sad. What makes it more pathetic is you attatch this RINO tag to anyone
in your party that doesnt agree with Mr. Bush.

BIGbelly writes:
I am so ashamed I need to know his name.

Lest we forget:

The two victims, Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker, were members of the 101st Airborne division abducted by al Qaeda in Iraq. A third soldier died in the attack.
Their bodies were later recovered not far from where they had been kidnapped. The US military now says that their corpses were found tied together with a bomb between them. Three roadside bombs were planted around the bodies. The bodies had been decapitated.

Pathetic & Embarrassing..
When repubs/cons make "unhinged/ludicrous" statements like this I just shake my head in
utter disgust and disbelief that they ACTUALLY
believe the nonsense they are writing:

"If only lefties would try as hard to excuse or explain away American actions as they do with the actions of our enemies, we'd really be kicking some enemy behind by now. Right now the propoganda war is the only thing holding us back, and the left has chosen to side with our enemy in that aspect of the war."

here is a prime example of this nonsense about
the left "aiding, abetting and siding with the enemy. that charge is total bs.

Furthemore as far as the U.S. "kickin some major
behind" by now, I think that it is a total embarrassment to U.S. citizens that Prez Bush with the most powerful military in the world with all its "amazing hi-tech weaponry and intelligence capacities" cannot defeat and subdue what is essentially a very small army of
rag-tag insurgents fighting with outdated weapons and people bombs.. yet the repub bragg about how they are "getting it done"..yeh right..lol

Oh, Kim
...I love how easy it is to get right wing wack jobs whipped into a frenzy. I find it quite amusing actually. ...

This is actually quite sad. Name-calling and immaturity wrapped up in a false sense of superiority. This pose is its own indictment.

...The misinterpretation I refer to is the fact that the citizens among us who are resisting legalizing torture are not concerned in this case about soldiers who are captured by Islamic extremists. ...

Two mistakes are being made here. The first is suggesting that anyone is advocating legalizing torture. Before you make such a case, you need to define torture and explain how it applies to the methods under consideration. The second is in basing expectations on the possible actions of hypothetical enemies while ignoring the real actions of real enemies.

...The Abu Ghraib affair pretty much guarantees that they will torture and execute their American captives. ...

Torture and execution of American captives pre-dated Abu Ghraib. Abu Ghraib provided a convenient PR excuse, but the killing and mutilation of American contractors pre-dated it, as did the beheading of Daniel Pearl. The Taliban (who sponsored Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan) conducted public executions in soccer fields for crimes such as adultery. Among their more pleasant punishments was to bury women up to their necks and stone or beat them to death.

...The purpose of the Geneva agreement was to attempt to reduce and hopefully eliminate the widespread use of torture. We all should be aware that it has had some success in achieving that goal. ...

Please enumerate the success that it has had. I am aware of no conflict (Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc.) in which our adversaries honored it. Its purpose is irrelevant to its effectiveness. The purpose of the League of Nations was to end all wars. When Japan invaded Manchuria in September of 1931 it was demonstrated rather quickly how ineffective it actually was.

...The reason that clear thinking civilized humans are against re-interpreting article 3, which is quite clear as it stands, is because it opens the door for any party to do likewise. ...

Re-interpreting or clarifying? The most cited vague passage is:

(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

Please explain what is clear about this. What explicit actions does it allow or prohibit? Where are these written down? Who interpreted them to begin with? Are you aware that it is the legitimate business of legislatures and judiciaries to interpret treaties made with foreign nations and to decide how they will be implemented?

...This could have drastic consequences for our soldiers in the future. ...

Our soldiers have been tortured and executed in every conflict since the Geneva Conventions were ratified. They are being tortured and executed now. What drastic consequences are forthcoming that they don't already suffer?

...Also, since we Americans love to address the world from our position on the moral high ground, it would invite other countries to cite our example in their defense of their own practice of torure. ...

I am still not willing to agree on the description of what we're talking about as torture until that assertion has been successfully defended. Then we can discuss the issue of whom you believe will begin to use torture that is not already doing so regardless of our actions; or how we can make any practical difference when fighting an enemy that thinks murder and destruction are legitimate responses to being offended.

...The real reason for the major bush administration push on this issue is to cover their behinds. The Supreme Court has ruled their practices in this arena are illegal and they are genuinely fearful that they will lose contol of one or both houses of congess in November and be held accountable via impeachment, charged with crimes against humanity, etc. I can hardly wait for that eventuality :) ...

Interesting that you have not even considered the possibility that they are trying to preserve methods that have yielded life-saving intelligence. Could you please explain the logical analysis by which you have dismissed that possibility?

...ps: I really love the way you big mouthed bushites jump to wrong conclusions like WMD's in Iraq or that I am a female. ...

How do you come to the conclusion that anyone taking everyone arguing in favor of harsh interrogation is therefore a "Bushite?" Do you believe that loyalty to Bush is the only reason that one could come to this conclusion? If so, why do you believe that?

Left Angle
Left Angle writes:
"So youre telling us that you people in here dont
know McCain, Warner and Graham are Republicans and Sowell has to point it out to you?"

I am telling just the opposite. How can you possible be that obtuse? Are you sure you have the right name? In your previous post you implied just the opposite. So you want to pretend both to be stunned that Mr. Sowell didn't point out their affiliation and also stunned that anyone would need it pointed out??

Thomas Sowell's audience is generally well-informed and I suppose he made a mistake in assuming they would all know the affiliation of such prominent Senators. I guess he didn't realize you'd be reading his article today.


Left Angle writes:
"What makes it more pathetic is you attatch this RINO tag to anyone in your party that doesnt agree with Mr. Bush."

Why is that pathetic? And what is your basis for that statement? Do you really mean to say that you are aware of every statement I have every made about "anyone in your party that doesnt agree with Mr. Bush"? You know what they say about those that ASSume?

sloopy..No its a ploy....
He didnt list their party affiliation for a reason..

the average person who really knows little about politics would assume that these people he is talking about are democratic senators..in other words he lumps them all together anyway, that being anyone who disagrees with bush..He doesnt want the average person to understand that all republicans dont agree with bush on everything.

so what youre saying is anyone who disgrees within the repub party is a "republican in name only" what criteria are you using to make such judgements?

For Left Angle - Give our Troops a Break
After all, *our* troops are the ones trying to fight the war following the "rules of engagement." The enemy is not.

If we wanted to go the "win at any cost, damm the consequences" (most of which are bad PR, plus a lot of innocent blood), then we'd be done pretty quickly. After all, you said it -- we have the most powerful military in the world.

But to win, no matter the consequences, we'd have to play it by the terrorists' rules instead of ours. I.e., we'd have to stop worrying about killing civilians. We'd have to stop worrying about damaging mosques and hospitals and private homes. We'd have to stop worrying about liberals in the US and Europe screaming about how "brutal" we are, and actually *start* being *brutal.*

That's why you see so many Conservatives calling for blood. If we went in and flexed all the might at our disposal, no matter what the collateral damage, then we could win in a month at most. And we want to win as soon as possible. And Liberals know this too, but they don't want to risk any collateral damage -- and the only way to fight a war without collateral damage is to not fight a war.

Hence, the two opposing sides to the debate. Do we avoid being "bad guys," give up, and cut 'n' run? Or do we stick it out and win at any cost?

I think we need to give our military lots of kudos for walking on eggshells. They're trying to split that fine line that runs between the two extremes. They're trying to run a "surgical war" where only the bad guys are taken out, and not take out any good guys. They're trying to extract the cancer without killing the patient.

As far as fighting a war goes, that's probably not the best policy. A "surgical war" is probably a contradiction in terms.

We need to either bail or blast. You can't fight a war being "nice" to the enemy, but unfortuately, that's exactly what we're trying to do.

The enemy is lovvin every minute of it.

Donaldd
I never said that American soldiers were saints, but the logic voiced by so many that if we would just treat them fairly than they would treat ours fairly doesn't hold water. I would like for our soldiers to be saints, I would like the United States to always take the moral high ground, but the argument that if we did, that would mean that our soldiers would be treated with kid gloves just doesn't work. As they say in teh South, "That dog just won't hunt."

Out-of-control judges
Of course, the Supremes are above/outside the law. They are no different from our judges here in Pennsylvania.

Our General Assembly voted itself a midnight pay raise, then repealed it, after the disinfectant of sunlight was applied, and we threw many of those bums out in the last election. But this week, the Commonwealth's Supremes ruled that judges must be given back their raise.

And how about Massachusett's Supremes, dictating to the legislature that it must pass laws to legalize homosexual marriage?

Never mind what the people think. They will tell us what to think.

It might be time for a new Civil War, to scrub away the effects of 40+ years leftist/Marxist American Liberalism has had on our republic...

Kim
"...you big mouthed bushites jump to wrong conclusions"
--I don't recall anywhere in my comment saying that I like Bush.

"The Abu Ghraib affair pretty much guarantees that they will torture and execute their American captives."
--Riiiiight, because they were so concerned about treating our prisoners well before that. Like most liberals, you follow the mantra that it's our entire fault

Your ignorance of history is very telling. Since the adoption of the Geneva Convention in 1925, as an extension of the rights of the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, there has been only two wide scale instances of American Prisoners of War being treated in compliance of those accords and that is in the European Theater during the Second World War, when Germany and Italy complied. Since that time there has not been any widespread conflict in which American POW's were give the proper accord (Japan, North Korea, China, Soviet Union, Vietnam, Iraq) so I fail to see where us playing by the rules has managed to deter any other nation or entity from ignoring the rules.

How would you classify these "prisoners", are they POW's, in which case they can be held indefinitely without trial, or are they criminals subject to American Justice, in which case they are not afforded the rights under the Geneva Convention, or are they "unlawful combatants" not subject to either one (a phrase which has been used since the 1940's, not invented by the "bushies" as most libs like to think)?

As to the Supreme Court ruling that the practices are illegal; that doesn't hold water either, since the SCOTUS lacks any venue in this instance, since it was explicitly excluded by Congress in the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, which states;
"Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider--

'(1) an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; or

'(2) any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention by the Department of Defense of an alien at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, who--

'(A) is currently in military custody; or

'(B) has been determined by the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in accordance with the procedures set forth in section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant."

This right is granted by the Constitution to exclude the Supreme Court from jurisdiction, as specified in Article III Section 2 which states;
"...the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

p.s. other may have, but I made no statement to your gender, stupidity can apply equally to both male and female.


Left Angle
Left Angle writes:
"No its a ploy....
He didnt list their party affiliation for a reason..
the average person who really knows little about politics would assume that these people he is talking about are democratic senators.."

Left Angle, with one notable exception, the average person who knows little about politics is not reading this column and, in fact never has and never will read a Thomas Sowell column.

You really DON'T know what they say about those who ASSume, do you?



Left Angle writes:
"so what youre saying is anyone who disgrees within the repub party is a "republican in name only" what criteria are you using to make such judgements?

A. Please show me where I said that
B. Please reread you statement and try to make sense out of what you are saying.

Mr. Sowell
has once again hit the bulls-eye with his words! Mr. Sowell keep on being a voice of sanity in a forest full of nuts! Those of us who are watching our great nation being destroyed from within appreciate your voice, & I pray we all do our part to turn the tide. For one, show up at the polls to vote! Mr. Sowell, thank you!

sloopy: One more time...
thomas sowells columns appear in many newspapers of which the average person would be reading.
So for him to leave out the party affiliation of those he mentions in his article is a deliberate ploy.

People like Mr. Sowell would have you believe that EVERY Republican fully supports President Bush in the GWOT without dissension in the ranks..Mr. Sowell seeks to blur the lines by not naming their party affiliation so as to lump these people with democrats.

Finally, by what criteria do you name a person in the Republican Party a RINO?


Kim
I have just one question for you what branch of our armed forces are you in, or have you been in?

I have served 2 tours in Iraq and the persian gulf region. I have been as safe as any other sailor or marine.

What gets me upset is when people like you try to talk politics and use our military to prove or disprove your points. You have no clue about anything military so do me a favor keep our mighty armed forces out of your negative posts.

V/R Robert C. Bradley
DC1(SW/MTS)USN AD

Left Angle
I think you're missing the point. Dr. Sowell thinks that regardless of which party is attempting to pass this, it is bad. He did not feel he needed to point out their party affiliation, since it is irrelevant to the subject at hand. I fail to see where party affiliation would in any way contribute to the scholarship of this article. Dr. Sowell does not blame Democrats for anything, he doesn't praise Republicans for anything, he does not bring up political parties at any point in the article, so why do you feel that you must?

The far-left are insane
We all know that the Michael Moore/Dean/Hate America first/Newshound Blog crowd are so off target that they should just be laughed at and ignored. But John McCain and the 3 other Republican turn-coats are another story indeed.

Are they so afraid of losing their seats that they would sell-out their country also? Osama bin Laden must be laughing in his cave. The Muslim, terrorist, Jihadist murdering scum don't give a rats about Geneva Conventions. Bush only wants a clarification of Article 3 so our soldiers have a better understanding, McCain and the others should be behind that. Have the nut-job leftist traitors gained that much leverage? I really fear for our great nation if so.


Left Angle
Left Angle writes:
"thomas sowells columns appear in many newspapers of which the average person would be reading."

Yes it does. But you specified "the average person who really knows little about politics"

Again, such people do not read political columns. Hence, the moniker "knows little about politics".

But I am interested in your rationale. Thomas sowells columns appear in many newspapers therefore to leave out party affiliation is a deliberate ploy???

Dude, you need to go back to school and take a logic class.

Left Angle writes:
"Finally, by what criteria do you name a person in the Republican Party a RINO?"

You still haven't answered my question. Why do you state that I label everyone in the Republican Party who disagrees with with the party a RINO? Unless you can prove that this is my contention, I think this discussion is pretty pointless. I'm not going to defend a statement I never made.

TomD_tx
You are correct, of course. Left Angle has turned this on it's head.

SkunkWorksSupt.
You raise an interesting question. Stockholm Syndrome, however, does have its time limits in most cases. Even Patty Hearst, no great intellect, got over hers and has nothing good to say about Cinque and the rest of the crazoids from the SLA.

To be honest, I believe McCain is just another opportunistic Bush-basher, trying to raise his standing in the MSM and to get elected POTUS in 2008. He has never liked Bush since Bush beat him like a rug in South Carolina in 2000. He kept his "Republican" registration after that so that he could keep his seniority in the Senate.

Donaldd
You are correct, by definition I would not be a Prisoner of War, and I would be an enemy combatant. The Third Geneva Conference Article 4 defines a person accorded protection under the treaty as;
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

There are a great many other provisions, but where the issue comes up is in the definition of "That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;"
This is the basis to classify many of these persons as enemy combatants and not as prisoners of war. I would like to believe that if Iraq invaded Florida and I were fighting, I would be fighting under an American flag, a "fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance." If I were not, and I did not qualify under the other rules, I would consider myself an enemy combatant, not that I would expect any better treatment by the Iraqis, regardless of my classification.

sloopy: On Rinos
you stated:

I thought it was odd mr. sowell left out the party affiliation of those he was criticizing in this article..You saw nothing odd about it and stated:

"THAT is the POINT. Of course many Dems are saying the same things. Here Mr. Sowell is pointing out the RINO's."

RINO: means "repub in name only"

So my question once again is what is the criteria that YOU or others in your party
use to make that judgement?

correction:
please delete first: you stated.

PS
Regarding Colin Powell, I saw him as a leftist thinking traitor back in his administration days as Scty of State. His (mis) handling of the Israeli Palestinian conflict was very revealing. This back stabbing he and his fellow supposed Republicans are doing reeks of personal vindictiveness/revenge on Bush, regardless of the risk to our country, exactly what the far-left loons do.

McCain and Warner
This is a bunch of rot. Since when does a piece of paper protect the people captured in war. These two men should be assumed of them selves. Lets take the Japs, Russians, North Koreans, Chinese, North Vietnamese, and now the Psalmists. A piece of paper did not help any of our men in those wars. McCain ought to know. The treatment he went through must have addled his head. I don't know about Warner, I don't recall that he was ever in the service. I think that we should do the Islamists what they do to us. If the world dose not like it to He** with them. And when they call for help from us against them we will ignore them.

Left Angle
You seem to have a fixation on the term RINO. What exactly is your problem with that term?
First you unjustly accused me of calling ALL who disagree with the Repub. Party RINO's (at 12:52PM) When I asked you to defend that statement, you neither defended it or withdrew it. You said it AGAIN at 1:25 PM. Now you still seem to think I have an obligation to share my definition for the term with you. I'll be happy to do so. As soon as you either successfully defend or withdraw your statement about my use of the term.

As I said to you earlier, I have no obligation to defend your misconstruction of what I said. And to continue the conversation without your acknowledgement that that is not my position is to invite you to twist my words further than you already have. I won't do it.

Question on RINO'S:
RINO: means "republican in name only"

therefore, what criteria would one use to make
such a judgement to label a republican politician as such?

Left Angle
P.S. So either PROVE what you said, WITHDRAW what you said (with or without apology) OR slink away and quit asking me to discuss the subject with you.

sloopy: you didnt say this?

"Duh,THAT is the POINT. Of course many Dems are saying the same things. Here Mr. Sowell is pointing out the RINO's."

So all I asked you to do is define: RINO

why is that such a big problem for you?


sloopy: furthermore..
all i did was ask you a question:

"so what youre saying is anyone within the republican party who disgrees Prez Bush is a "republican in name only"? what criteria are you using to make such judgements?

Left Angle
Left Angle writes:
"sloopy: furthermore..
all i did was ask you a question"

Really? Then how did I just copy this from your 12:52PM post?

Left Angle writes:
"What makes it more pathetic is you attatch this RINO tag to anyone
in your party that doesnt agree with Mr. Bush."

RINO
There are specific points of view on specific issues that are generally considered to be an either "Democrat" opinion or a "Republican" opinion.

E.g., tax cuts are generally considered "Republican", while tax increases are generally considered "Democrat". Underline "generally", since there are obvious exceptions, such as John F. Kennedy, a Democrat who cut taxes.

Generally, Democrats are liberal, Republicans are conservative.

Underline "generally" again. There are exceptions all over the place. But, in cases where the vast majority of a pol's opinions and actions on issues appear to be similar to (or even worse than) a Democrat's, we call said pol a "RINO". S/he acts like a Democrat, but happens to have "R" next to his/her name.

Using this definition, Arnold Schwarteznegger (increased minimum wage, increased spending, etc.) of California and George W. Bush (Medicare drug program, No child left behind, increased spending, etc.) can both be considered RINO's.

Has that cleared it up any?

UncaAlby
You can't clear it up for him. Have you followed my conversation with him? He claims I made statements I never made. His attempt to get me to define that word, is, as far as I can tell, an attempt to get more words out of me in order to twist them and to claim again that I have said things that I obviously have not.

If this were not so, he would have no problem admitting that he was wrong to claim that I said something that I clearly did not. It is not as if anyone can't go back and see what was said anyway. Yet he refuses to retract his statement. What other reason can there be for that?

one-way moral equivalizing
A couple things I think are worth noting regarding the one-way moral equivalizing of Lefties, and can be summed up as superpower US unalterably bad, noble underdog islamist savages good, regardless of actual behavior by the respected parties.

A couple points to help understanding the Lefties:

1. The Lefties hold the US and its islamist enemies as morally equivalent. In responding to islamists' deliberate and wanton slaying of innocents, the US ends up accidentally killing innocents; to the morally illiterate Leftist, an innocent killed is an innocent killed no matter the motive or degree to which they are deliberately targeted or avoided. The Left is making one of two points: Americans accidentally killing innocents is as bad as islamists deliberately doing so, or the islamists deliberately killing innocents is no worse than the Americans accidentally doing so.

2. The Lefties don't actually believe #1: The US--despite the beheadings and mutiliations of captured Westerners and US military--both is expected to and does treat captured islamists far better than what they personally deserve or is legally called for. The US is held to such a greater moral plane than our enemies that any "mistreatment" (mistreatment meaning anything less Club Med quality accomodations and being subjected to anything harsher than what a newborn might expect in receiving an APGAR score) shows we are bad, bad, bad! no matter what the islamists do.

So the Left simultaneously holds the islamists as being no worse than the US while maintaining the US has a duty to operate far more morally than the islamists do. This is because the Left has a bigoted expectation that the islamists aren't capable of operating on or even comprehending a level above butchery.

Here's the rub: if we're morally the same, why not expect the same behavior from both sides? Then torture commited by the US would mean something other than what millions of Americans have ponied up money to be subjected to (listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers at very loud volumes or joining a Polar Bear Club) and mean what the islamic world understands torture to mean: decaptiation and mutilation of defenseless captives, hands lopped off, bones broken, tongue cut out, thrown off 3-story buildings, drilled kneecaps, tossed in a plastic shredder, dipped in acid, etc.

Lefties: remember, when you go on about the US "legalizing torture" the islamic world thinks you mean actual real disability-inducing, life-ending torture, not the self-esteem diminishing stubbed-toe relative discomfort that you're whining about. Furthermore, in my opinion, by telling the Islamists we're actually torturing people (in a non-tortured understanding of the word 'torture') you're encouraging them to engage in torture against our personel.

put up or shut up
There have been too many ludicrous comments by too many people to adress here, however I have one last comment to make. The people leaving comments here that support the policies of the bush administration seem to do so with a passion that borders on zeal. Shouldn't you be showing that support in some way a bit more positive than your incessant rhetoric? Why are you not fighting the good fight in Iraq? What are you doing in front of your computers flexing your fragile egos with nothing being accomplished. Surely you don't think you are having any kind of influence on anyone here do you? Can it be that this anonomous forum is the only place where can actually summon the fortitude to act? If you are so sure of your convictions then do something besides assailing us with your lip service!

put up or shut up
Kim: There have been too many ludicrous comments by you to adress here, however I have one last comment to make. The people like you leaving comments here that support the policies of the jihadists seem to do so with a passion that borders on zeal. Shouldn't you be showing that support in some way a bit more positive than your incessant rhetoric? Why are you not fighting the good fight in Iraq? What are you doing in front of your computer flexing your fragile egos with nothing being accomplished. Surely you don't think you are having any kind of influence on anyone here do you? Can it be that this anonomous forum is the only place where can actually summon the fortitude to act? If you are so sure of your convictions then do something besides assailing us with your lip service!

Re: Ah But America Is a Christian Nation
"All Bush is looking for is immunity from prosecution for the crimes the Supreme Court has said he has already commited."

As has been stated before, the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction in this matter and has simply attempted to circumvent the Constitution and usurp authority that was expressly forbidden it by the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005. So I fail to see where the Supreme Court has said anything. If you don't have the authority to try a case, you don't have the authorty to declare someone guilty from it.

torture
Perhaps if McCain and the Dhimmi-crats need a model of how to treat terrorists we could use their treatment of women as an example.... or how about the way they treat the Christians and non-Arab Africans (Muslim or Christian) in the Sudan.... or how about how the Taliban treated the Animals in the zoo's of Afghanistan after their take over... you know... threw hand grenades at them for fun or just plain starved them! If people want to be dhimmi's then we women might just as well start wearing the burkas....

A Higher form of Being
That last was just a little spoof pointing out the worthlessness of Kim's post. All I had to do was change about 3 nouns and it applies to Kim at least as well as it applied to Kim's target.

See how easy it is to show such people what idiots they are?

Re: put up or shut up
Ah Kim, don't take your ball and go home. It was so much fun having you pitch batting practice. Responding to your comments allowed me to get so much good practice with my typing without actually having to put much thought into what I was typing, since I only HAD to use a small portion of my brain to refute your crazy statements, that now I fear I'll actually have to work to rebut other people's comments.

KIm/Kimberly
Sometimes the news comes from: http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

If you have the guts to be confronted by a reality Katie Couric won't show you, go to the above site and click on the videos available at the bottom of the page. After you have cleaned up your own mess (I am sure will lose some bodily fluids) please come back and support your previous posts with a reasoned discussion.

Tell the rest of us how treating these animals in a civilized way will get them to honor the Geneva conventions.

Just more proof
These elected officials actually want us to believe we can expect mercy from our enemies? Did McCain receive any mercy from the VC? Did the Geneva convention prevent his torture?

This is an enemy that seeks to destroy us, by any means necessary.

Folks, we have 11 million illegal invaders in this country, no border enforcement, liberals wanting to close Guantanamo Bay, and our elected officials trying to provide Manhattan attornies to our sworn enemies.

If you want living proof of the real divide in this country- between ordinary American citizens and their elected officials, this is it. It's all down hill from here for our once great country.

The Real Enemy
We face today is not the poor desert trash we could deal with in a month of real fighting, but the liberal enemies within the U.S. If we could do away with them, the middle east situation would be cleared up, and Islam would be a memory.

One shouldn't lump Mcveigh and Nichols in with Islamofascist terrorists. They are/were terrorists, but of another variety. Remember, their outrage was over atrocities committed against *American* citizens. Instead of raising a rebel army or suing the government, they chose the path of terrorism.

Speaking of the Waco massacre, I find the current concern over the treatment of prisoners, especially by McCain, hilarious. Remember the images of McVeigh in a bright orange jumpsuit... surrounded by body-armored cops? Or the little old ladies in wrist and ankle chains. Where was McCain in 1993?

Lest we forget, the "coercive" techniques our government used in Waco included sleep deprivation, deprivation of sanitation, deprivation of food and water, desecration of graves, exposure of certain body parts, exposure to health risks (the potentially lethal gases), denial of medical treatment... and many if not most of the targets of "coercion" were children and the elderly. Not a peep from the traitorous left, or from the placating Republicans. They make it obvious, every time they speak or fail to, that it is perfectly fine by them for you to do anything harmful to Americans, especially Christian Americans, particularly white Christian male Americans, but the lowest, most vile desert trash, not subject to Constitutional protections, must be treated with kid-gloves.

The creatures we've captured have no Constitutional rights; To suggest otherwise is like suggesting I can have my house rebuilt on someone else's homeowner's insurance policy.

They should be tortured until no further information can be gained from them, and then disposed of like any other rabid beast.

Jim Williams
Oklahoma City


Geneva clarification
No amount of coersion can be applied that would result in medical attention being required in the case of the detainee. No broken bones or cuts requiring sutures.
I am for using chemical means of removing all inhibitions as it relates to vital info. Just by removing tryptophan from the diet renders a subject incapable of controlling the emotions necessary to keep a secret. The individual becomes angry, depressed and impulsive. Then restoring the Tryptophan would create an opportunity for the good cop to work on the prisoner. This process could be used with no deliterious affect on the prisoner at all. Thank you Dr. Jack Wheeler.

Why we go to war
The liberals commenting here seem to be confused about why we go to war. We don't fight wars to achieve the high moral ground. We fight wars to ensure our long-term survival. It's not a matter of who is right or wrong. Obviously a lot of people think it is wrong for us to attack and try to destroy the radical Islamists. And a lot of people think it is wrong for the radical Islamists to attack and try to destroy us. So it's just a choice -- kill or be killed. Diplomacy has failed and will continue to fail.

It's true that people commenting here, both righties and lefties, tend to resort to high hyperbole. But many of them do make more reasoned arguments for their positions in their blogs. If you will read some of them you will find that many of the righties aren't strong Bush fans and aren't real happy with the Republican Congress.

One other thing
In case someone doesn't know, you can click on any underlined nickname to reach that person's blog.

Politics above common sense
As a normal, law abiding citizen I have to ask the question: "Have our distinguished Senators taken leave of their senses?" Isn't it abundantly clear by now, that most of the rest of the world hates America, and the more we try to please them, the more they detest us. I can't believe that politics is more important than the safety of our country and its citizens. If we don't wake up soon to the danger we are facing, we deserve the consequences.

Kim,
My, my, what a blah, blah, blah little boy you are. I would be afraid for the future of this country if I thought blah, blah, blah. I know you must be blah, blah, blah. Do you get your news from any sources other than Kos? I think not.


Oh, and Kim,
"There have been too many ludicrous comments by too many people to adress here . . ."
Translation: You've beat me, so I'll just call your comments ludicrous.

". . . however I have one last comment to make."
Translation: You can say whatever you want; I won't be around to hear it.

"If you are so sure of your convictions then do something besides assailing us with your lip service!"
Translation: Even though I'm the one who came on a conservative site, I'm going to accuse you of assailing me, and I'll do it by using ye olde "chicken hawk" argument that's already been thoroughly shredded.

The thing about morality ...
is that it applies universally. Either torture is wrong or it isn't. Torture can't be right sometimes and wrong other times. But, of course, it takes courage to live up to moral standards in the face of evil.
America is on the side of good only so long as it continues to live up to its own moral code. A country that condones torture because it faces an evil enemy is morally bankrupt itself. To say that our enemy is worse than us is nothing more than moral relativism.
The distinction between right and wrong either exists or it doesn't. There is no middle ground on torture. It's wrong. Those who argue that America should engage in torture have taken their hatred of America to a new extreme.
I predict that America will have the courage of its convictions and reject the call of the "hate America first" crowd to drag the good name of our country into the filth.

Kimberly reveals how she brainwashes
herself into actually believing what she says. If you want to follow her lead, find yourself a talking point from Kos and then:
"Repeat this over and over again until you get it."

No, thanks, Kimberly. I choose life.

Left Angle:
"Didnt anyone else notice that Mr. Sowell conviently leaves out the fact that each of the Senators he mentions are REPUBLICANS..."

Your point is, what? A. Everyone already knows that. B. Nobody cares.

"If so thats really sad. What makes it more pathetic is you attatch this RINO tag to anyone
in your party that doesnt agree with Mr. Bush."

No, the RINO tag is attached to anyone who finds themselves on the left side of the issue one time too many (the exact number is a secret, I can't tell you). It's certainly has nothing to do with Bush. Even though, he hasn't attained RINO status, conservatives aren't exactly thrilled with a lot of his stances.

"here is a prime example of this nonsense about
the left "aiding, abetting and siding with the enemy. that charge is total bs."

And it's bs because you said so.

"Furthemore as far as the U.S. "kickin some major
behind" by now, I think that it is a total embarrassment to U.S. citizens that Prez Bush with the most powerful military in the world with all its "amazing hi-tech weaponry and intelligence capacities" cannot defeat and subdue what is essentially a very small army of
rag-tag insurgents fighting with outdated weapons and people bombs.. yet the repub bragg about how they are "getting it done"..yeh right..lol"

See UncaAlby's post of 1:31 PM. He said it better than ever I could.

Raywood Ashe, are you saying
that there are moral absolutes?

Kimberly
I admire your persistance and you add contrast to the posts. You seem to be locked into the past and resort too easily to epithets, nasty adjectives and non sequiturs. Try joining me in a discussion of ideas, cause and effect, possible future strategies. Posting statements like if you like fighting so much, why aren't you in Iraq go nowhere. The quality of an idea has little to do with the quality of the messenger. Obviously 1legwarrior has supported his hawkish stand with walking the talk to the point he now walks on a prothesis. This may or may not make him admirable to you, as it does to me, but it has no effect on whether his opinions are valid. A rhetorical question--have you done anything which would serve to make your opinions valid. If not, no matter, ideas stand on their own. I suggest you examine your motives for your stands. Research the fate of peoples who chose one set of values or another. Your feelings are important, but you were given a brain to deal with them to your profit. Investigate the reasons for WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the Falklands. Does the war in Spain in 1936 which is now recognized as a Nazi/Communist surrogate have any bearing as a surrogate for another clash of huge Populations? How is Iraq like 1936 Spain? There are interesting questions out there. Passion and name calling will solve none of them. Give us a battle. Don't start a food fight.

Kimberly
Got it. You have all of my respect due to you.

Left Angle and Raywood Ashe
Has it occured to you that the reason we cannot subdue the "rag-tag insurgents fighting with outdated weapons" is because Democrats, Europeans (world opinion?), and now (yes) some politically ambitious Republicans are forcing our armed force to fight with both hands tied behind our backs? We must follow rules of war, but they do not. These people are the same individuals our President wishes to deny protection under the Geneva Conventions. If you must support these terrorists, at least argue about the efficacy of torture (false confessions) or harsh questioning, but DO NOT argue for their humane treatment because torture (no matter what) is always wrong. What would your choice have been: burn to death or jump to your death from 60 stories? Remember, these are the people who forced that choice upon hundreds of your fellow citizens.

Pistol
You are way off on your quoting of the second best western of all time. And Mendez was not just a bystander in the movie.

Abuse & Training
Kimberly,

Regarding the following statement by you,

***********************************************
"Now, take those same tactics used by our gang on the prisoners in question and apply them to the soldiers we have fighting this godforsaken war."

That sounds pretty much like the survival training that aircrew members receive and that I and others went through.

**********************************************
"How do you feel about having others who don't like our definition of "freedom" and "democracy" treating our soldiers as their prisoners in the same manner that we do?"

That would actually be a vast improvement.


Clyde9




Pistol,
Kimberly doesn't like lectures; she prefers the brainwash technique of learning.

Clyde9
What is wrong with you???

Don't you KNOW that there is NO one so depraved as we Americans are???

We are going to have to leave it to people like Kim and Kimberly to 'educate' us.

After all, there is no place on earth so terrifyingly cruel, inhuman and backwards as the good ole USA!

Where do you think those Muslims learned those crazy little 'torture' tricks of theirs, anyway?
Just because it preceded the founding of our country in NO WAY precludes them from having learned it from us.

We think that is why so many millions risk so much to come here. It is so awful that these altruistic people are willing to give up everything, leave their families and friends and move here in order to straighten us out!

By the way, while they are busy telling you how awful America is and Americans are, DO NOT ACCUSE THEM OF HATING AMERICA! That really raises their ire! They are actually hating us for our own good, therefore, is it incumbant upon the rest of us to recognize that lefty hate actually equals the greatest love of all!

If someone hates you for your own good, surely that is the true, hidden perhaps, but TRUE meaning of love. HATE = LOVE (as long as it comes from a Democrat)

Marxist trolls babbling again......
The way the trolls are whining you would think that the terrorists are being treated with all the love & respect that Reno showed the Branch Dividians.

Whoopie we're all goin'a die...
Here is where it all comes apart for those leading the charge in support of a “hands off” policy for terrorists captured on the battlefield:

When we capture a terrorist we have a reason for keeping him alive and moderately healthy; that being our need to glean information from him. Clearly, our goal is to exploit a prisoner’s knowledge about future terrorist attacks, in order to prevent them. Even our methods of gleaning intel must allow us to be reasonably certain that what the prisoner is telling us is the truth.

On the other hand, when the Islamofacists capture a US soldier they have an entirely different agenda for prisoner exploitation--that being propaganda. Their exploitation method is terror, horror, and spectacle. Their goal is to demonstrate, for all to see, the strength of their resolve, and they do this by showing us their outrageous ability to inflict brutal and barbaric suffering. Which is why they video tape their beheadings and air them on Arab TV.

They do this to weaken our resolve. Because when fighting a war you can’t win militarily, you must seek other means to secure victory; and you do this by using terror as a political weapon--to affect the political climate in your enemy’s country and to force your enemy from the field of battle.

So, even after McCan't forces us to forgo any “harsh” (read; effective) treatment of the terrorists we capture, in the vain hope that this will somehow protect our soldiers from mistreatment; no such reciprocity will be proffered the terrorists—as it's not in their interest, nor is it part of their strategic plan. And why any sane American would think that a cult that seeks martyrdom by ritual suicide would actually care about the treatment their fellow terrorists received after they've been captured, is beyond comprehension.

In the mean time, McCan’t will have effectively shut down our interrogation process (or tied it in knots) and he will have gained our soldiers not one ounce of goodwill from the terrorists and no security from their brutality.

And he will have opened the door for future attacks by cutting off our access to information about our enemy’s future plans.

Get ready, gang, for--thanks to McCan't & Company--it will soon be time to bend over an kiss our collective asses goodbye.

To quote that great American patriot (not!) and anti-war tunesmith, Country Joe McDonald, "Well there ain't no time to wonder why, Whoopee! we're all gonna die."

Only this time it might be true...

Kimokymo
My memories are often faulty. Also i simplified and edited to keep it short. Since you admired the flick too, let me know what i have disremembered. Newman goes down the hill where the wounded Richard Boone (2 hits from a '76, the most powerful repeater of its day. What was keeping him functional?) is waiting. Before he goes down, Newman gives his rifle to some kid and says when the shooting starts, take out the vaquero. Barbara Rush starts up the hill towards the mine shack and blocks a clear shot between the kid and the vaquero. Boone says " You got some might hard bark on yuh, after what you did to me. .....and that vaquero behind you is a more than fair hand." The shooting starts, Newman takes out Boone, but the idiot kid doesn't shoot and the vaquero puts one into Newman as Newman shoots him. Newman lays dying, the idiot kid who was basically a bystander comes down apparently to give his version of help. Newman is dead and the vaquero doesn't have much time left, but he asks fiercely "What was his name. The kid turns blankly and the vaquero says again "el hombre...what was his name?" Still out of it, the kid says without real comprehension of why the vaquero would want to know the name of a man who walked into virtually certain death. He says "Why Russel. His name was John Russel." Lots is vague in my mind. Just what touched off the shooting. Was Newman's name Russel or something else. Was it Pedro Armendariz who played the vaquero? I remember Fredrick March was so hateful of a gusano i wouldn't shake hishand if i'd met him for real. I forget who played the snooty blonde bit who goaded Newman to his death.

Whacky Kim
These left wing whack jobs like Kim are bent on realizing their liberal idealogical utopian dream world, even if we all die while their trying.

Suicidal hand-wringing
As mentioned in an e-mail to Dr. Sowell, the U.S. cannot use water pistols on madmen with nuclear weapons.

Dr. S. is right on target, as usual.

Thanks Cynewulf
Didn't you and BrianR snap me back to reality the other day? Anyway, I'm new and green. I haven't given up on trying to learn something. With help from r0_d1 and Kimberly, i'm learning to dampen my naive hopes.

Yeah, Pistol,
every now and then a lefty will give you some hope, only to crush it. I will say Phylo, tanabear, and Left-Angle usually don't call names. So, don't totally give up hope yet. I'll also say that not all of the conservatives here agree on everything. I know BrianR, Flagwaver, Celtic Dragon, Justaguy, Husker Jeff, myself, and others disagree on various things. I've learned a lot from them. If you have time, pop by one of their blogs (people whose names are underlined have blogs, and you can get there just by clicking on their name).

Geneva Conventions
It is well knows, except by the Supremes, that the Geneva Conventions can never be stretched to apply to terrorists. I will therefore not waste my time repeating the obvious. To McCain, Warner and Graham I would simply ask, "Has the International Red Cross or Amnesty International visited the POW camps maintained by the Enemy?" No? Oh yeah. There aren't any. They torture and kill any captive so they have no prisoners. Hmm. McCain thinks our troops can be treated worse than this? McCain was once my hero. Now I would vote for Hillary before I would vote for him, or Warner, or Graham. Jeez.

Terrorist are not answerable to anyone
In America we have courts, police, our government in which those who do crimes answer for it and where complainsts from foreign countries takes their grievances. Do terrorist have the same. No. They are not answerable to anyone. They go where they want and kill whoever they want. How does the Geneva Convention apply to this type of enemy. When a terrorist kills, where's their government where this country can take our grievances because they violated the Geneva Convention. It doesn't exist. This type of terrorist has always used their own set of laws to present fear and death as a means of converting to Islam. This is their clarification of the Koran which they use against their enemies. All President Bush wants is the same clarification of the Geneva Convention which gives our CIA the means in which to do what the terroist have been doing long before 9/11. The history of the terrorist proves they have no problem in beheading and dismembering their enemies. They could care less about the honor of those they behead and dismember. How does the three stooges (John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham) feel about that when they want to tie the hands of the CIA in getting information out of terrorist.

I'm thinking that Kimberly
projects quite a bit, and that she recognizes it. She then generalizes that to everyone else. If I'm projecting, they must be as well. So now, she projects that we're projecting. Interesting.

Kimberly
Cynewulf and Sloopy, you and others have done an excellent job of responding to Kimberly and Left-Angle. I do think, however, that much of the back and forth between some of us and Kimberly is futile. I share the frustration with her(?) non-sequiturs, name-calling, and emotional outbursts, but she simply WILL NOT understand the utter intellectual bankruptcy of many of her arguments. You have painstakingly pointed them out to her in numerous refutations, but she cannot allow herself to admit her errors in reasoning lest her entire worldview collapse. (I know I'll get the usual "don't presume to psychoanalyze me," but her behavior clearly speaks for itself.) She argues like a typical liberal. That is why their side consistently loses issue debates and elections: most Americans (for now) have enough sense to recognize their illogic and lack of supporting facts, in place of which liberals routinely substitute innuendo, assumed sinister motives, vilification, inane moral equivalence, sloganeering, and pejorative names. "Halliburton! Chicken hawk! Nazi! Bush lied, kids died!" Other liberals are expected to nod their heads in agreement and ask everyone if they "get it." "Don't you get it? What's wrong with you? It's so obvious: Bush hates children, science, foreigners, women, puppy dogs, and the poor. I'm terrified for my country - even though we're nothing special among nations, of course." I used to argue like that in third grade, but then I learned how to persuade with facts and logic rather than peer pressure and insults.

This is why all the serious debate now takes place between members of the right wing. All we conservatives can do is to present lucid arguments and solid facts without calling anyone names, then sit back and hope the liberals learn a little bit from us each time they venture into our world of reason.

Not trying to lecture, just saying it's not worth the energy that some folks are expending.

Kimberly: The fact that our "site-mates have slung epithets" does not reflect on Cynewulf unless Cynewulf has also made such comments. As far as I can tell, he has not. Besides, anyone else's use of epithets does not justify you doing the same. Let's argue like adults. If you just want to amuse yourself by "ruffl[ing]" people "by name calling," please find a sandbox.

Finally, thanks to TomD_tx for his citation of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, about which I had inquired in my first post.

wasting time and energy-......"lestat"
regarding Lestat's remarks, I totally agree with these remarks, and can only add that it is usually a complete waste of time and energy to attempt to change the minds of lefties.

Many of them have spent large sums of money for what they believe was a genuine higher "education" not aware that they have been indoctrinated with leftist/Marxist ideology from K-12 and further solidified in college. They know nothing else but the one sided liberal agenda that has been drilled into their brains since kindergarten.

The lefties that do convert are usually much older, and have experienced first hand the lack of clarity and substance within the liberal/socialist mindset.Presidnt Reagan, David Horowitz, Bill Krystol, Norman Podhoretz come to mind as some well known examples.

Anyway save your energy, and rejoice the fact that the conservative movement in our country is winning even though like the hands of the clock it's hard to see the progress.


To Kim and Kimberly
Stop talking . You can't seem to LISTEN or READ! To dissent is your "right", of course,but __try to read reason when you see it in print. : "Right-Wing wackos"....Soooo enlightened!

looking forward to November
I think we all should agree on at least ONE thing here. November's election results will be very interesting, and telling, whatever the outcome.

RagTag army/insurgents
So many posts; but I know one of the ultraliberals mentioned the inability of our military (actually, the person said "Bush") to knock out the "ragtag" bunch. But everyone knows that Iran, Syria and perhaps others are sending their own "insurgents" to Iraq.
Also, how does LeftAngle come to produce this syntax? "...of which the average person would be reading." Strange.

Left Angle writes:
"thomas sowells columns appear in many newspapers of which the average person would be reading."

Sowell
A mark of T. Sowell's success is the large number of posts, the controversy and discussion his writings precipitate.
Well done, T. Sowell.

Kim
I agree, it will be a very interesting November, and I believe that October will be almost as interesting.

Right-Wing Debate
Lestat writes: "This is why all the serious debate now takes place between members of the right wing."

You are right, of course. This article is an example of that. I acutally don't think that it is a very healthy place for our government to be. If the left-wing continues to marginalize itself, I suppose the Republican Party will eventually split and we'll be back to two major parties.

SCOTUS and RINOs
Lawyers have great responsibility for the exorbitant cost of the medcal system and insurance, driving many businesses overseas, etc. and now they're in the process of making a shambles of the military and intelligence services.
Do the citizens of New York, Washington and other high level target cities agree with the castration of the intelligence agencies? Let's hear from their senators.

Kim Kim Kim
You are so like most Left Wing Bed Wetter’s. You cannot debate the facts so you (in your little leftist’s world) resort to calling us names and questioning our intelligence... Face it Kim you are a left wing PINHEAD with not one thing to say!

Rethinking the War on Terror
I don't understand why there is so much conservative hand-wringing over what liberals like "Kimberly" write. Don't people realize that liberalism is destined to be defeated, since people who don't transmit culture, reproduce, or defend their homelands do not last very long?

I don't understand why we conservatives get our panties in a bunch when some liberal fails to understand some obvious point like "terrorists will not follow the Geneva Convention because the Convention is not enforceable within terrorist strongholds." Don't we realize that, so far, the primary victims of terrorist aggression have been liberals?

Look at the evidence:

1) 9/11 hit liberal New York.
2) The Muslim shooting at the EL Al counter occurred in liberal Los Angeles.
3) The Muslim SUV attack in North Carolina occurred on a liberal university campus.
4) The Muslim SUV attack in California occurred in liberal San Francisco.
5) The Muslim Jewish-center shooting in Washington occurred in liberal Seattle.
6) The Muslim Beltway sniper occurred in the liberal Beltway.

Do we see a pattern here? The pattern is that the primary victims of Muslim terrorist attacks have been Democrats.

Why would we want to stop this?

If liberals want to engage in exquisite moral exhibitionism that endangers their lives, then why not let them? Aren't we better off when liberals end up dead? Why do we conservatives choose to get in the way when our political enemies are obviously making a mistake?

Aren't we engaging in our own moral exhibitionism when we seek to save Democrats from themselves? What are we trying to prove when we send Republican soldiers to die to make the world safe for Hillary Clinton? What's the point?

Wouldn’t America become a more confidently conservative country after a nuke wiped out New York or San Fran or L.A? Consider what a New York nuke would get rid of:

1) The NYC Democratic Party
2) Illegal aliens
3) Hillary Clinton
4) Chuck Schumer
5) Eliot Spitzer
6) ABC
7) CBS
8) NBC
9) Gay broadway
10) NYU
11) Columbia U
12) The United Nations
13) Liberal law firms
14) Saudi-controlled FOX news
15) 6 million or so liberal voters

This list is not even exhaustive and I’m sure others can add to it.

If conservatives truly believe liberals are a threat, then doesn’t it make sense to maneuver them into situations that put their lives in danger? Doesn’t it make sense to write-off blue-state America as unsalvageable?

Yes, there is the problem that blue-states contain conservatives but that problem is solved by moving. There is no reason why Ann Coulter or Bill O’Reilly couldn’t duplicate their lifestyles in Vail, Colorado.

Yes, there is the personal affront of foreign powers attacking Americans on American soil. All I can say is get over it. We should not consider Democrats or liberals to be real Americans anyway.

It is time we stopped approaching every situation like we’re fighting abortion. After all, I don’t see why we should keep liberals from aborting their children.



logic
Using Kim's logic, if you support abortion you should be willing to perform one, no?

it is not about winning about survival
I think comments like the one of the President's anatomy, that some make are pretty much what you see on a blog that requires no courage. Real courage is in the form of the Military and emergency responsers; Police, Fire Dept., Marines, Army, Navy and Air Force. They are in harms way, in the dirt and fighting the enemy. They truly want to win but on any one day it is a matter of survival. When confronted with a manical ego pervert, like those in Iran and elsewhere, it will come down to survival of the USA and eventually the survival of the human race. I do not think the mouthy cowards of this world realize how bad it really can get. God help us all!!! Thomas Sowell has those Corps values that are required for common sense and objective survival! Semper Fi Thomas!

Them or Us
Thanks for the sobering view of reality Dr. Sowell. Unfortunately, and to their detriment, the "touchy feely" liberals don't get it and they never will. They fail to understand that there is no reasoning, getting along with or compromising with someone who's made their intentions very clear that they are going to destroy you, your family and your way of life by any means necessary.
The islamic terrorists have made their intentions clear. It's time America take them seriously and defend ourselves and end this threat once and for all by any & all means necessary.

"When you're surrounded by a pride of hungry lions, there is no negotiating you way out of being eaten." But for some insane reason, only a liberal would try.

Rules of War
For once I have to disagree with Dr. Sowell.

It would appear that he did not read the court case in question. The Court did not ignore the law. The Congress left a loophole in the law big enough to drive a truck through by allowing the Court to have appellate jurisdiction in certain cases. The case in question was one of these cases.

Once the Court decided that it had jurisdiction, the Court looked at the US law governing military courts (the UCMJ) and discovered that low-and-behold, these courts had rules of evidence. These courts gave the judges the authority to throw out hearsay and other questionable "evidence". In these courts, the accused had the right to hear the evidence against him and to confront witnesses. In these courts, the accused had the right to cross examine witnesses. Imagine that -- in courts that follow the law, the accused is actually allowed to put up a defense.

Not so in the "Gitmo courts". In these travesties, there was no rule of evidence. If the prosecutor said it was admissible, then it was admitted. In thse "courts" the accused did not have the right to hear the evidence against him. He did not have the right to confront witnesses. He did not have the right to cross examine witnesses. In short, he had not right to defend himself at all.

These are the "courts" Dr. Sowell is defending. The same sort of court that were run by Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Kangeroo courts that exist solely to convict the accused. Un-American travesties that no civilized nation would tolerate.

Well, the Supreme Court looked at the law authorizing these "courts". This law required that the courts follow the UCMJ. Since these courts did not follow the UCMJ, they were not valid under the law that authorized them.

Then the Court looked at the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention is US law. The Geneva Convention requires signatories to hold trials for non-POWs captured in the territory of other signatories. (POWs can be held as long as the war lasts without trial. Non-POWs must be given a trial.) These trials must meet certain minimum standards. Needless to say, the "trials" conducted at Gitmo did not meet these (or any other civilized) standards.

For once, the Court got one right and Dr. Sowell got it wrong.

I doubt that they think about it.
"Does any sane adult believe that the cutthroats we are dealing with will respect the Geneva convention?"

I have my doubts about how many of them are even aware of the controversy. They're not exactly the most literate people in the world. For them, torture of prisoners is simply a given.


Only one thing to do.
Only one thing to do. Organize the troops. Vote right. Take back our Country. Time to jump out of the warming water while we still can. Details to follow on Militia.com and VoteRight.com. Stay tuned. I'm fed up.

Geneva Convention rights for terrorists
McCain, Graham and Warner are fools for wanting to give special care and protection to the terrorists wanting to kill and behead us. It makes absolutely zero sense to offer these protections to terrorists that don't follow any rules.

How far do we go?
I know that I’m rather late to the party on this but I have been overwhelmed with other things lately.

While I normally agree totally with Dr Sowell I have some “concerns” about this article and some of the posts that I read. I think most of my “concerns” fall under the heading of limits. When you find yourself in a knife fight I agree that you need to knife fight but what about when the other guy is down? Do you go ahead and kick him until he is senseless or dead? Do you hunt down his children and kill them before they become a threat to you?

By all means take his knife away from him and if the fight is still going on keep fighting. My question goes more toward once that fight is over. In other words what to do with the “detainees”. Frankly I don’t know. Like others have said this is not a “normal” war and it will never be over in a normal sense so the Geneva conventions don’t seem to apply. Does that justify holding a person indefinitely without benefit of trial? Isn’t that what totalitarian governments do to the people who it doesn’t like? Is that what we are going to become?

Any one who committed a crime in the US is subject to US law; but I don’t think that covers many if any of the “detainees” either. So what rules cover these people? No matter how much they hate us they are still people, made in God’s image, with certain inalienable rights. Or does that just apply to Americans?

What does Dr Sowell mean by “all-out in self-defense”? To me the term “all-out” includes “no holds barred” and “any thing goes”. The United States has a large nuclear arsenal. Is Dr Sowell or anyone for that matter seriously suggesting that we turn North Korea or Iran into a nuclear wasteland with a preemptive nuclear first strike? If not where do we draw the line and why?

I agree that “No amount of security precautions can protect us from all the thousands of ways in which terrorists can strike at times and places of their own choosing”. So let’s start talking good old fashioned self defense. We need a creditable defense. All our weapons are offensive which might have worked in a world of deterrence by Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) but MAD assumes that the other person wants to live more than he wants you dead. This is no longer the case. So we have a choice we can strike first and become the terrorists we loath or we can equip and learn to defend ourselves from the first strike while maintaining our ability to totally destroy our attacker. Being able to destroy our attacker is not enough by itself we must also have the will to do so. Right now no one actually believes we will retaliate so we will be attacked and we will need to retaliate. The process will repeat itself several times. Men, woman, and children will die but if we do nothing men, woman, and children will die.
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