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Thursday, July 27, 2006
Thomas Sowell :: Townhall.com Columnist
More amnesty fraud
by Thomas Sowell
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Just when it looked like the Senate Republicans had finally gotten the message that the American people in general, and their own supporters in particular, are outraged over amnesty for illegal aliens, some Republican Senators have come up with yet another disguise for amnesty -- and gotten bipartisan support, including Ted Kennedy and John McCain.

Under this new plan, its advocates claim, illegal immigrants would "have to leave the country" and re-apply to come back in legally and get on a path toward citizenship. It sounds good but on closer examination it turns out to be a fraud.

How long would the illegal immigrants have to leave the country? According to the Senate bill they "may exit the United States and immediately re-enter." In other words, do a U-turn and come right back. How is that for "tough" border control?

Nobody else gets into the United States that easily. You can say "tough" all you want and still be a wimp. Or a politician.

How long do the Senate Republicans think they can keep insulting the public's intelligence, with an election just a few months away?

Every gesture that the Senate has made toward controlling the border is one that they have backed into under pressure from an outraged public. The Senators' whole focus has been on what they could do for the illegal aliens, in order to win Hispanic votes -- and how they could camouflage it in order not to lose other votes.

Businesses that want cheap labor are also in favor of amnesty, under whatever name. So are citizen-of-the-world intellectuals, for whom national borders are just unfortunate relics of the past and illegal aliens are just like everyone else except for not having legal documents.

Nobody is just like everyone else, individually or collectively. Second-generation immigrants are not even just like their parents. Their crime rates are far higher than those of their parents who came here to work and who can appreciate the difference between what they had in Mexico and what they have here.

The second generation does not compare their lives here with how people live in Mexico. They compare their lives with the lives of other Americans -- and there are all sorts of people around to tell them that the difference is due to injustices that they suffer.

Some of the more doctrinaire free trade advocates see the free movement of people across national borders as being just like the free movement of goods. But, when you buy a Toyota, it doesn't issue demands that our automobile laws be in Japanese and it doesn't have little Toyotas that add to the crime rate or to the burdens of our school system.

Moreover, when a Toyota needs repair, it doesn't go to an emergency room and expect the taxpayers to pay for parts and labor.

Whoever buys a Toyota is expected to pay the full price of the car and its upkeep.

But employers of illegal immigrants get the benefit of cheap labor and leave it to the taxpayers to cover the costs of their health care, imprisonment and everything else.

Our schools pay the price not only in money but also in lower educational quality when children with a limited knowledge of English and a limited commitment to learning impede the education of other children.

People who argue about immigration in the abstract ignore the fact that there is no such thing as an immigrant in the abstract. Immigrants from some countries have twice the education of immigrants from other countries and the differences between how many commit crimes can be some multiple between one group and another.

The most fundamental question is: What is to decide how many immigrants from what countries are to be admitted to the United States? The laws of this country or the fait accomplis of illegal aliens?

Are the citizens of this country to be people committed to this country or people who go back and forth, who expect American culture to adjust to them instead of vice versa, and who are kept separate and disaffected by their leaders and by the multicultural cult? We already have too many Americans with no real commitment to this country and no willingness to defend it.

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About The Author
Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of The Housing Boom and Bust.
 
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You tell it like it is Dr.Sowell
It seems these idiots are going to force this upon us, no matter how much we protest! Well, I for one will note vote for any incumbent. Nor anyone who tries to get amnesty passed. No matter what face they try and put on it.

We need to get these S.O.Bs out of office and get some people in there with a backbone.

Y'know the real hypocrisy here?
All the apologists for the illegal alien amnesty approach, like Michael Deadhead whose column is printed here, all say it would be logistically impossible to round up and deport the illegals.

And, yet, somehow the illegals can all be depended on to go to these "Ellis Island Centers".

Am I the only one here who sees this as a serious disconnect in the argument? Am I having a Cognitive Dissonance moment or something? Am I missing something here?

The Usual
Dr. Sowell still won't bite the bullit. He says the problem is the welfare state but he won't say to get rid of the welfare state. In the absence of all the freebies illegal immigrants are afforded, there really wouldn't be any difference between an immigrant and a Toyoto.

Immigration
Term Limits would certainly help by getting rid of people like Ted Kennedy, Orin Hatch and the rest of the appeasment crowd. We are fighting a war thousands of miles away to prevent terrorist attacks on our own soil and yet we are inviting them in through our southern borders that are like a sieve. Does this seem rather stupid to any one else?
Maybe the answer would be a third party. The current two party system does not seem to be doing us too much good. Once a politician is elected, they seem to be brainwashed by the beltway crowd and start doing things that they promised not to do before being elected or not doing the things they promise.
Perhaps we should amend the constitution to require that two laws be removed from the books whenever a new law is passed until we are down to a reasonable number of federal laws. Or perhaps the approach of Colorado could be adopted on our Federal budget.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
Townhall and Townhall members are both very lucky that they still have Dr. Sowell for a columnist, simply for the reason that since Townhall has come out with this new format, Dr. Sowell's column is about the only part of the new web-site that makes any sense. With that said, the American voter cannot let the distractions of the Middle East in any way be reason to let down our guard and stop paying attention to what our elected cronies, wimps and huge failures are doing in Washington in regards to immigration laws that they are trying to sneak through when they think we are not paying attention. The fact of the matter remains that the cost of the current estimate of the twelve to twenty million illegal aliens that are already here in this country are bankrupting this country and our leaders are simply ignoring this fact the same way they are ignoring the current immigration laws that are already in place and on the books. With the mid term elections approaching, all voters need to bombard their elected representatives with letters faxes and e-mails opposing any form of amnesty, and reminding them that we have the power of the vote, and intend to use it come November. Visit www.headsneedtoroll.org click on the government resources locator link look up who your elected representatives are and send them a message loud and clear that you are paying attention and that you expect and demand 100% accountability from them, or come November they will no longer be able to count on your vote. Heads Need To Roll

destroying the foundation
Termites by the millions move into your home uninvited and destroy it's foundation--what part of that does President Bush not understand?

Today, America's greatest threat is not the Muslims--it is the Mexicans. Muslims might knock down buildings here and there, but the hordes of illegals are destroying the foundations of the entire city.

I really don't wish the illegals any ill--I do wish them to stay in their own countries.

America cannot survive as America if a misguided psuedo-compassion causes us to continue to tolerate the flood of illegals.

Immigration
What is the agenda of those promoting amnesty? Votes? Illegals are not supposed to vote! Workers? Businesses are not supposed to hire illegals. Criminals are not supposed to vote - and all illegals are criminals, having broken the law by their illegal entry into this country.

Thomas Sowell has it right. Why can't our legislators see the truth? Again, some agenda not being shared with the populace, and I believe that comes down to votes and pandering to business entities, not the populace. Term limits would be a step in the right direction.

If legislators had salary caps, not those set by themselves; if legislators had to pay into the Social Security system; if legislators had retirement funds based like average workers, they would be far more prudent with our taxpayer funds. They would be more aware of the drain the illegals place on our education systems, our health systems, our welfare systems, and our prison systems. But there they are with their heads in the clouds, voting to open our borders, to openly welcome criminals and terrorist into our country, continuing to vote in their personal pork wants, spending our taxes like there is no tomorrow.

We have a Constitution which is being ignored and trampled on. We have laws which are not being enforced. Our leadership has failed.




The soul of Sowell - Right On!
No argument with Mr. Sowell, nor with any of the comments. I would offer a few sidebars, however.

1. I keep wondering why nobody is blaming their state governments, state legislators, or governors, for this illegal migration outrage? We are a Republic comprised of fifty states, each state with the power to arrest, jail, and deport illegals, of if not, why not? Why are police in so many places told, "Hands off?" How many of us even know who is running our state government, or pay much attention to state and local elections?

2. The concept of voting independent to, "show those congressmen" has its basic flaw. It's an almost certain way to assure Leftist gain office, especially for the Presidency, and increased power, the proverbial "biting off the nose to spite the face." The better plan is to support individuals within the Republican party known to be actual conservatives, rather than RHINO's. Rather than contributing to the RNC, contribute to trustworthy individuals, and yes, to the NRA, or any other organization with a conservative, Constitutional agenda. Missouri has some good people who have voted consistently on the "right" side of the isle, e.g., but the big left is pouring money into the state to campaign against them, as it undoubtedly will all "red states." And, what sort of irony does that red state/blue state suggest?

3. We wonder what the "real" agenda is for pandering to a no border nation, wonder why the nihilistic insanity of hugely reproducing our population overnight to a giant percentage of undereducated, fast reproducing, welfare state. Could it be that we're not breaking our nation fast enough to suit the left? Or what other motive might be an influence? One thought that occurs to me is to wonder how many members of our government(s) have "investments" in the drug trade. The "War on Drugs" has been a dirty joke: why is that? Isn't it a little peculiar that just at this time Mexico has legalized drugs? Could this have been a part of some "deal" between some Mexican and some American politicians? I'm not a conspiracy freak, yet I can't help wondering....Is this a "follow the money" situation?

4. I agree with the opinion that throwing out two laws for every one written might help. Far better - burn them all - start all over with nothing but the Constitution! It covers everything, if not ignored, unless there's a way to use it against itself. {Paraphrasing}: All powers not explicity stated as residing with the Federal government reside with the states or the people! Consider how many laws that alone makes illegal. The Constitution is "The Supreme Law of the Land," according to a Constitution test, so if our lawmakers do not honor it, what does that say about our lawmakers?

5. Finally, with regard to the studid propaganda that, "illegals take jobs Americans don't want," and our "economy would collapse without them," they said that about slavery too -"Can't make a living without it." Seems to me that the nation has thrived without it....

KEEP CALLING!
My Senator....Hutchison is introducing a 'Pence Plan' in the Senate. I'm going to call her office and tell them to read this article. With all that's going on in the Mideast, don't forget to keep calling and demanding that we have enforcement - border and otherwise- PERIOD. I've told Hutchison's people I will do my best to throw her out of office.

I'm sick of these millionaire/'public servants' that care nothing of the REAL consequences of their idiotic actions.

KEEP CALLING!!!

Getting the American citizen a voice.
First, insist in all discourse that the term illegal immigrant is an oxymoron. Never use the words together. Immigrant is a legal alien..

Second and most important. All politics are local. Instead of railing against your senator or somebody else's or the governor or the President, atart with your Democrat and/or Republicanprecinct committeeman.

They are the only ones who hear the squeaky wheel. Find out who he/she is. Politic with that person. Show that you have a group which is angry. Run against him/her if necessary.

Third, do not send money to the many otganizations which request it and tell them why.

a. The Catholic Church is abetting the illegal alien movement. Withdraw your pledge to the diocese. Tell them why.

b. Libby Dole sends you a request for money, promises you political adoration or something less. (Libby Dole, aren't those two canning companies?) Return the postage paid envelope empty. Write a separate letter to the organization. If you just mark up the pledge form, the accountants don't give a damn.

c. etc, etc. Politifcians only understand two things, votes and money. They have endless computers and endless form letetrs they can send you.

But go local, again and again. The precinct is the place to start.

Hutchison's "Pence Plan."
I agree with the comments posted by sbmcgraw regarding Senator Hutchison. The woman is a dim bulb and needs to be retired.

Our legislators?
These clowns and crooks in Washington ceased to be our legislators the minute they started taking campaign money from interest groups. the only way their 'constituents' would have any real influence on them was if we were lining their pockets with million$ in campaign cash! And why is that we are always screaming about tenure for ineffective teachers, but raise hardly a peep for 'tenured' members of Congress? Is it just me or does it seem strange that John Kerry has been in the Senate forever, but is still the states junior senator? We need term limits now...that way we would get some real representation. If it's good for the executive, it's even better for the legislative!

Lets return to people doing their DUTY
All of the current problems with this great nation can be solved if only our elected officials would do their duty! Looking out for the US and not their career!

When one has a job they do what is best for their career. When one is serving their nation they only do what is best for the nation as they see it as their duty and not concerned with personnel gain.

Lobby Congress from home or work!
Sowell is the best. But his wisdom is wasted unless Congress acts on it. I registered for "Action Alerts" at Numbersusa.com's website and now I can just click "send" and send faxes, dozens or even hundreds per month, directly to the fax machines in the offices of Senators and Congressional Members just when they are about to do something to make the situation better or worse.

In ten years of trying to get Congress or any President to wake up about immigration, the Numbersusa.com website is the most effective and efficient way to lobby Congress, instead of each other!

Numbers's 200,000 plus members swamped Congress with faxes and phone calls, helping to get good border control bill in the House, and were crucial in stopping the 66 million person Amnesty in the Senate this summer. My brothers and I were all in the Vietnam war, and we lost, but we still have a country. If we lose the immigration fight, before long terrorists will be nuking our cities from drive by vans with weapons just driven up the interstate from Texas, and onto the Capitol Mall. This fight is for all the marbles, and immigration reform is the central battle. The Numbersusa.com faxes are not the only way to fight, but they are the most efficient, and keep you and Congress up to date on what's at stake here. It's not just cheap lettuce!

Amnesty
The Politicians just dont get it.How many times do we say it. "No Amnesty,Secure the Borders now" "No guess worker Program" " Secure the Borders Now" If not we the people will!!!

Illegal Immigration
There are some very good points being made by all in response to Mr. Sowell's column. One of the points that can be added is for us to ask ourselves what in the world is the Mexican government doing about the situation. We know that they arrest, imprison, and sometimes even shoot illegals who cross their southern border. We are being laughed at and with good reason. We are putting on a clown show in Washington D.C.
Who wouldn't laugh at these pandering deceitful persons who don't seem to have a clue but grovel in their ignorance and imagined superiority? On the illegal aliens subject, Dems and Repubs should be embarassed to call the majority of the senators and representatives "our leaders".

Sowell's Amnesty article
You failed to mention which specific bill you were discussing, and there are several out there. Which one(s) do we specifically need to condemn and try to prevent enactment?

Conservative Leaders and Columnists
There is a new press release titled ‘Border Enforcement First’ that is signed by 39 Conservative Leaders and Columnists, including Thomas Sowell. The list is like a Conservative’s Who's Who, or a Conservatives Hall of Fame. It is very impressive.

To see the 'Border Enforcement First' statement go the Townhall.com front page, scroll down to the bottom and click the "Immigration" title bar and click 'Border Enforcement First' for Tuesday July 25, 2006.
Or you can find it by the address http://acuf.org/issues/issue63/060705pol.asp from the American Conservative Union Foundation. This statement is very encouraging as to where many Conservative leaders stand.

I respect the Townhall Columnists and the support that they give to the Republican Party, but I hope that more of them will reject the Pence Plan amnesty and strongly support "Border Enforcement First".

To Cave.
Well said, and I'm going to take your advise.

By the way, you and your brother's didn't lose the Vietnam war, the politicians did. The same politicians that continue to visit this immigration travesty on the American people.

My hats off to you.

Show me the money!!!
Many amnesty, ‘regularization’, Pence Plan, ‘Guest Worker Program’ supporters say that illegal aliens are needed for the economy because of cheap labor. Well I say PROVE IT.

How much money do illegal aliens PUT into the economy by paying taxes versus how much do illegal aliens TAKE from the economy by using social programs, Medicaid, health care in hospitals, food stamps, the prison system, and education in our public schools?

Do the math. Illegal aliens can’t be helping our economy when they are taking so much from our economy!!!

We need to seal the border and go after the illegal businesses that hire the illegal aliens, before they both bankrupt the United States. When businesses exploit the illegal aliens, the illegal aliens exploit the US economy, and we have to pay for it. If I am wrong, then please show me the money!

Unless someone can show me proof otherwise, everyone needs to support the “Border Enforcement First” immigration bill from the House of Representatives.

Dishonesty
Has anyone ever studied why elected officials refuse to serve the public according to the publics wishes?

Has anyone ever studied why the public continues to re-elect officials who refuse to respond to their wants and needs?

Living in another state I cannot do much to effect the senatorial elections of folks like Ted and John. But, how about the folks who can?

Why do their constituencies continue to elect such scum?

GEM



Rooster wrote:
"The politicians just don't get it"
They get it alright! They just ignore the people. They could care less what you or I say. They only concern themselves with their personal agenda. Get all they can! While they can!

Sen Burr of North Carolina
Sowell once again hits a home run on the issue of illegals while most of the rest of the townhall columnists have been whiffing on 3 straight pitches.

Be prepared for further capitulation within the U.S. Senate. I wrote both of my senators on this issue when the Senate was mulling over the original McCain-Kennedy-Hagel-Martinez amnesty bill. Just when I think that I should at least feel some degree of satisfaction that both of my senators voted the right way (against the bill) I receive a form letter from Sen. Richard Burr. He explains in this letter that he voted against the bill because of particular provisions and uncertain costs. All fine and well, except that he also very explicity spells out the fact that he would support a guest worker plan and feels that it is necessary for any kind of reform. As most right thinking people know, a guest worker plan will never be temporary and it will provide the cover for the illegals in our country to remain here permanently, produce babies with automatic citizenship, and allow them to access our generous social welfare services (i.e. amnesty) Again, this is from one of the few Senators that voted the right way. So what do you think are the chances that someone like Sen. Burr is going to remain strong and steadfast with a little tweaking here and there -- I'm not very confident. I never received any response from Sen. Dole, but with her pedigree I don't have a lot of confidence in her intestinal fortitude to hold the line either.

Sowell Lives In a Dream World
Mr. Sowell and his lot miss the point.

President Bush ISNT going to deport 12 MILLION
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

Congress ISNT GOING TO BUILD A MEX-AMERICAN BORDER WALL

Congress ISNT Going to pass a Law to penalize those who HIRE illegal aliens.

Illegals ARENT going to voluntarily LEAVE THE U.S.

So Once you get past all of that, your next best bet is AMNESTY.

LeftAngle
Congress doesn't have to pass a bill to penalize those who hire illegal aliens.

It's already against the law: the 1986 Immigration Reform Act.

All they have to do is enforce existing law.

And amnesty is never going to be an acceptable answer. I'd rather their status remain unchanged, and they remain in the underbelly of society, than that we legitimize them.

BTW, why are you SHOUTING?

The Majority Get the Govt They Deserve
If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got.

Rep. Cris Cannon (R-UT) is living proof that, even in one of the most conservative states, that the majority of people aren't willing to seriously consider change.

While Congressman Cannon can't claim to have a mandate for amnesty legislature, he certainly proved that Congress need not worry too much about and electoral repercussions for supporting amnesty...as long as you run ads indicating that amnesty really isn't amnesty --if viewed from a certain political perspective.

You don't have to fool all the people all the time, just the majority of the electorate a week or so before the polls open.

Hutchison Has Lost Me Too
I'm with you, sbmcgraw. I supported Hutchison in 2000 but now that she has quit her waffling and tap dancing around the immigration issue, I've been converted to actively opposing her re-election. But who can we support? Jameson, the supposed Libertarian, seems pretty far out in left field, then far right field, then ... who knows. Might I have to vote for a (gasp) Democrat? I'd have several generations of my ancestors haunting me.

As to actively opposing Hutchison, I had intended to keep the following story to myself as perhaps an aberration. I've now decided she doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt so I'm telling the story to all who will listen:

Some months ago, I went to Senator Hutchison's Dallas office to deliver a single-sheet note concerning immigration. A security guard (not in uniform) met me in the lobby of the building and asked where I was going, When I told him my intentions and showed him the note, he informed me that the senator had no more appointments that day (she was in Washington!) and that I could not go to her office. I was livid but deferred to the guard's clear age and size advantage and obvious intention to physically prevent me from even going to an elevator. I did fax indignant letters to both her Washington and Dallas offices and got a telephoned apology from the latter. The explanation ("that shouldn't have happened") and apology sounded pretty lame to me but I dropped the matter at that point.

One bright note for now at least: we do have one pretty good senator in John Cornyn.

Ammnesty
The Rebublican Party is the party of business. Capitalism demands cheap labor. All you Right To Workers can't have it both ways.


Simple
Brian wrote: Am I the only one here who sees this as a serious disconnect in the argument?

No you are not the only one Brian. Am I the only one who knows how simple this problem is to solve?

All of the politicians have already thrown in the towel and are treating illegal aliens as future votes; it is pathetic and un american.

Create an actual tamper-proof green card, and the problem is solved.

Take most agents (or any new hires)off the border and into workplace enforcement units. Fine employers $5,000.00 per illegal, and double it for the next violation. Then close the company for the 3rd violation. Out of business. Make hiring of illegals untenable as part of a business plan.

Once you slam dunk 2 or 3 major company's the word will get out, and the illegal job market will dry up; and the light attracting the moth's goes out.

As long as a person can make 5 times their salary, who can blame them for coming; I'm sure I would do the same.

We are in a race between Mexico, the US, and China to see who's national average middle class wage reaches $12.00 an hour. I have a feeling our country will be dragged down, before the others are lifted up.

Just a thought.

Amnesty Fraud
We no longer control our government; this is my suggestion on how to regain control.

Each state collects all the names of citizens over the age of 25 and puts all the names in a hat. Two names are selected to serve in the Senate for two years. The selected persons CANNOT turn down the offer. If they so desire after their term ends they may run for the office for a four year term.

The same procedure would be used for the House or Representives.

This procedure couldn't be worse than the self-serving people that are in office now. They consider their main duty is to be reelected not to serve the best interest of the United States of America. What do you think??

Amnesty is good
rbpeirce has it right.

The fundamental question is not about immigration, but rather about the monopolistic and socialistic health care and school systems. Less these, the "problem" would be primarily one of low wages. Wages should be set by the market and not by government fiat. And to think that Congress is today debating increasing the minimum wage as if that won't just create more problems.

The current immigration system is nothing short of broken. You say that this U turn proposal is really amnesty. Maybe, but I say that ALL potential immigrants should be able to present themselves at the border or consulate and, with a bare minimum of delay, get a legal, reasonably secure, guest card. Even our local DMV can give me one in a couple of minutes.

Believe me, as soon as the country easily dispenses legal guest cards, the employers will be firing posthaste those without.

Some people are worried about terrorists coming in. News flash! If they really want to, no amount of sealing the border will stop them. We've had a war on drugs for going on 35 years now, and the purity, and availability are at historic highs, and the price is lower than ever.

If winning the war on terrorism or stopping illegal immigration results in our loss of liberty, then what have we won?

Hard Working Honest People?
For many years I lived in an urban neighborhood heavily populated by illegals. Here's a fact: These Illegals are ARMED TO THE TEETH! December 31, May 5th and every Saturday night sounded like the Tet offensive. They cannot posess 'pistolas' in Mexico. It is against the law so among first things these illegals purchase here is a handgun. 9mm automatic is weapon of choice.

The President called these Lawbreaking Illegals, "Honest, hardworking individuals". Let's see:

1. They broke the law entering this country
illegally;
2. They broke the law purchasing a handgun;
3. Every time they fire it into the air they
break the law;
4. They broke the law with false documentation
to obtain a job;
5. They break the law every time they get
into their uninsured pick-up.
6. They broke the law when falsifying the
W-2 where they entered fraudulent
information about number of dependents;
7. They are not vaccinated, and I believe
there is a law wherein
Americans and foreigners alike must show
proof of vaccination against diseases
that have been eradicated in this country.
8. They are the largest group to commit DUI
felonies because they flaunt the law.

"Honest, hard working individuals"? C'mon, Prez, give us a break. How can anyone possibly want to grant these people citizenship?

Armed Illegals
I lived in Phoenix, AZ a couple years ago. During one month I had a friend killed by illegals, another shot by illegals, the club I worked at was hit during a drive-by from illegals, and I personally witnessed 2 DUI accidents by illegals. I was living in the Slopes, which is pretty much must the land of illegals. For the time I lived there I didn't leave the house without a firearm. In short, illegals have killed more of my friends the war in Iraq.

http://ruf.eponym.com/blog

Worst immigrants to ever set foot in USA
I also live in the Phoenix area. They come across the border in droves, thousands each week, check out the Minuteman's website that patrol our border. I have lived here since 83' and now feel unsafe in my own community. The feeling is almost sureal here, like the country is being silently invaded but nothing is being done about it. I am afraid to travel in many parts of town that I was never fearful in the past. My husband's business has been negatively affected by illegal immigrants and the "day labor" center that the local church has set up for them along with our American flag on there signage. They also provide breakfast and started to issue ID cards for them sanctioned by the town, until local's starting protesting, because this was at the taxpayers expense. We have the worst governor in the history of Arizona, she is literally handing over our state to them on a silver platter. They have no regard for our way of life, medicaid, break all our laws, overcrowd our local school's, sit at the local circle k making drug deals, it's a free ride for them. We in AZ saw this coming over a decade ago, and just now the rest of the nation is seeing the damage they are doing to our country. Sadly, I think it may be to late.
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