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Wednesday, June 17, 2009
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama: "There Are Countries Where a Single-Payer System Works Pretty Well"
by Terry Jeffrey
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


President Obama told the American Medical Association on Monday that he thinks single-payer health care systems -- socialized medicine -- work "pretty well" in other countries, but that he does not want to create such a system here because he wants to "build on our traditions."

In fact, the predictable endgame of the health care plan Obama is trying to rush through Congress this summer is socialized medicine.

We now know Obama does not oppose socialized medicine in principle or on practical grounds. So on what grounds does he oppose it? Just one: rhetorical.

If Obama candidly said he is trying to put America on the path to government-run health care, it would excite exactly the sort of massive national grassroots opposition needed to kill his plan.

So what Obama is doing is paving a one-way street to a socialized medicine while expressly denying he is doing so -- and while accusing those who point out what he is doing of being untruthful.

Some in the liberal press are helping Obama perpetrate this big lie.

The coverage of his AMA speech provides a stunning example specifically related to Obama's declaration that single-payer health care systems have worked "pretty well."

The full context of Obama's remark is available from the official transcript posted on the White House Website. One paragraph of this transcript reads:

"Let me also say that -- let me also address a illegitimate concern that's being put forward by those who are claiming a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system. I'll be honest, there are countries where a single-payer system works pretty well. But I believe -- and I've taken some flak from members of my own party for this belief -- that it's important for our efforts to build on our traditions here in the United States. So when you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government-run health care, know this: They're not telling the truth."

On Tuesday afternoon, I ran a search of the Nexis "major newspapers" database to see if any major American newspaper had quoted Obama's remark that "there are countries where a single-payer system works pretty well." I searched the terms "Obama," "single-payer" and "pretty well." There was not a single hit.

Then I discovered, also using Nexis, that The Washington Post, The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times had all artfully quoted words Obama said both immediately before and after he said single payer systems work "pretty well" -- without actually quoting his statement about single-payer systems working "pretty well."

The Washington Post reported it this way: "In his speech, Obama said, 'Let me also address an illegitimate concern that's being put forward by those who are claiming that a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system. … When you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government-run health care, know this: They're not telling the truth."

The Post artfully replaced Obama's statement that "I'll be honest, there are countries where a single-payer system works pretty well" with three dots.

The New York Times reported it this way: "'The public option is not your enemy,' Mr. Obama said. 'It is your friend, I believe.' Saying it would 'keep insurance companies honest,' the president dismissed as 'illegitimate' the claims of critics that a public insurance option amounts to 'Trojan horse for a single-payer system' run by the government."

Artfully using broken phrases, the Times was able to report Obama's attack on his critics while avoiding his statement that single-payer systems work "pretty well."

It was the Los Angeles Times, however, that struck upon the cleverest tactic. It reported what Obama said this way:

"'Let me also address an illegitimate concern that's being put forward by those who are claiming that a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system,' Obama said. 'But I believe, and I've taken some flak from members of my own party for this belief, that it's important for our reform efforts to build on our traditions here in the United States."

Just as Obama was about to say he believes single-payer systems work "pretty well," the Times broke off the quote and inserted the words "Obama said." It then resumed the quote with the words "but I believe," which come after Obama said he believes single-payer systems work "pretty well."

The Washington Post, The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times are not part of an adversarial press asking tough questions of a president trying to radically reorganize the health care system. They are his accomplices.

In his AMA speech, Obama again said he supports creating a "public option" government-run health insurance company and mandating that every American buy health insurance. The only thing he isn't calling for now is mandating that everyone buy their mandatory insurance from the government company.

Once the "public option" is in place, slight changes in regulations and taxes can make it the only option. When that happens, don't expect to see it reported plainly in a major paper.

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About The Author

Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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Joel I stand by my position PT 2
You make GREAT points about the mixing of men from various states with differing loyalties for the all volunteer army of today. However, that in and of itself doesn't make a standing army lawful under the constitution. Today the appropriations for the military are jammed into the budget and thereby, the two year rule is de facto ruled upon. However, when speaking to expenditures of Congress, the writers of the constitution were VERY clear on not only a need for a SPECIFIC appropriation but also for a LIMITED amount of time. This is something you don't see anywhere else in the listed powers of Congress. Of course, the third amendment to the constitution again had admonitions about an army possibly being a threat to the people. Even Eisenhower warned of this upon leaving office.

Please do not misunderstand my respect for and belief in the need for a strong military. My Dad, brother, and many friends are U.S. Marines (inactive now). Semper fi was the rallying cry for our family of seven. We stuck together through thick and thin. However, when we have a nationalized army, marine corps, and air force (not capped as I speak in general terms as all branches have some of the other) we then have a powerful force that can be ruled by only one man and today that man happens to be as unlikely a commander as I have ever seen. This power must be controlled and balanced by the states to keep BO in line.

Joel I stand by my position PT 1
You said "In your reading, did you catch the debate over the size limit for the standing army? Several delegates wanted to include language setting the size of the U.S. Army at 5000 men. George Washington stood up, and stated that he would only support that provision so long as there was also a provision limiting the size of enemy armies to 3000 men. The delegates realized their absurdity, laughed, and they dropped the idea of limiting the size of the standing army." Again, the new nation needed a "federal" army at this time in history. This did not negate the Constitutional call for limits of 2 years; the army was to be called into service when it was needed.

You asked a loaded question with the next one: "Again, if the Founding Fathers considered a standing Army to be such a threat, why was the U.S. Army never disbanded?" Come on Joel--- since when has gubmint EVER disolved any department it has created? Do you also believe the myth that Washington was "unamimously" elected to the presidency? Actually he was not. New York did not exercise its eight electoral votes in the first election! Violations and blatant ignoring of the constitution began at the outset.


Who is envious of our system?????
Several comments have been made here stating that people who live in countries with healthcare systems run fully or partially by their governments would flock to the States for medical treatment if they only could.

That is utterly false. I lived almost twenty years in a western European nation (I am a native-born American with dual citizenship)and now live again fourteen years here in the US and can testify that the service, technology and general level of healthcare received in both places was comparable.

In fact, the Europeans of the nation where I lived are well-informed and aware of the serious problems with our system here and feel very lucky to have their own.

Using just the money the federal

government spends on medicare and medicaid, the feds could open 1200 hospitals each with a $50,000,000 budget. That is a hospital for every 25,000 Americans.

Using that 50 million dollar budget, every hospital could pay 10 family practioners $250,000 salaries each for 2.5 million.

In addition, these federal facilities could specialize so that every hospital would not need all specialties.

Finally, everyone single person could use these hospitals and doctors free. This would not cost the federal government one red cent more than it is currently spending on medicare and medicaid.

Meanwhile, private insurers could offer health insurance to those who want more than the government run facilities will provide.

This plan would control health care costs; ensure all Americans have access to quality healthcare; and allow people to pay for coverage that does not include government controls. All without increasing government costs above the current level.

Too simple and effective for our elected representatives? Almost certainly, after all the only pre-requisites for becoming an elected representative is an unquenchable thirst for power and a willingness to sell out your constituents for the favors of special interests.

If the Congress and POTUS were really interested in serving the American people, this whole health care issue would have been resolved long ago.


Hmmm , Donna, i can prove it
Obama and his supportes come say it flat out it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryKGqF28d34

NEVER EVER Believe what this man says now.
Go back to his past and you will see what he really intends.


Hey here's an idea...
Here's how you begin to fix our system which isn't broke by the way. I've used it and my insurance works just fine.

Stop paying for illegals who go to the emergency room. Just provide them with minimal care and then hound them for payment. After all, this "president" voted to let babies who survived a botched abortion attempt to die and get no medical care. So I'm actually being more kind than Hussein. For those without insurance because they don't want to buy it, same thing. Garnish their wages to pay for it. For those who are not healthy enough to buy an individual policy, all states need to make it guaranteed issue just like small groups with 2-50 lives.

The free market is the solution. We can't afford to pay for freeloaders who already have free "insurance" with Medicaid, Medicare, and SCHIP. Rationing is what will result if this idiot communist of a "president" has his way. He thinks he's a king, and wants to rule we the peasants. We have to stop him before we look like some European piece of crap country. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!

Frank On Germany and Turks...
I did not quite catch the gist of your argument. But you should try to get your facts straight.
West Germany in the closing of the 1950's had a shortage of labor. Our government went on fishing operations, first in Italy, then later in Spain and Portugal, and particularly in Turkey.
By the time of Reunification after 1990, immigration had almost completely ceased. Thus, no Turks flooded in thereafter, all four millions of them were already here.
Yes, you are unfortunately right, "we know how Germany treats the darker races". It is a shame. But unfortunately it is not that different from anti-immigration feelings in the U.S. - which seems to be picked up mainly by conservatives. The funny thing in Germany is that xenophobia is particularly rampant in parts of the country where immigrants are scarcely to be found.
Now, what does all that have to do with a single payer health care system?

Tallil2long: Your dubious moral argument
You are absolutely right that our government tried to get rid of elderly immigrants, however they were only marginally successful. Yet, I don't know in what way that imperils my credentials unless you expect me to condemn each and every sin my country's government has committed before proffering any argument. That would well exceed the 2,000 characters I'm allowed in one single post.
You might also have noticed that I did not even come close to claim that our medical system - though as close to universal as possible - was to be considered a success.
I'd hold though that we come better off than the current U.S. system but I would not advise you to try to emulate our's. Incidentally that is why I am skeptical that the proposed "government alternative" will work. The insurance industry will dump all the high risks on the government alternative, and costs will run away. The system would not be able to compete. Though given the complexity of the issue, comparisons are fraught with problems, one might argue that that is what is happening here in Germany. That is one of the reason we are looking for places like Finland that do have a very successful health care system. Tiny or not, why can't you learn something from them, too?
Oh, sorry, I forgot to condemn the Finns for staying neutral during the Cold War ....

Joel -- Not Wrong Pt 2
"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;" This clause clearly says the Congress can organize and etc "such part of them as MAY be employed in the service of the United States". The states could have permanent armies but the feds could not.The feds could call them to service FROM the states but they had no general authority to "own and command" an American or U.S. Army in perpetuity. Obviously, a declaration of war would call them to service. However, the funds to maintain this multi-state AKA or then Federal Army, under the command of the President, would need to be authorized for a period not to exceed two years. A prolonged war would present Congress with the need to renew funding at the end of every two years.

In NO way would the founders consent to anything other than a temporary "U.S." Army for the reasons I stated earlier. I believe the constitutional convention notes did touch on this subject. My general reading of plenty, including the Federalist Papers, left me with no doubt that standing armies were considered a threat to the citizenry.


Joel- Not wrong Pt 1
You say I am "flat wrong" on the standing army not being lawful for a period of more than two years. Yes, I am referring to the clause, ""To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;"

However, I am not wrong on this issue. Our founders dreaded a permanent FEDERAL army like that of King George. Foe that reason they added these clauses:

"To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;" The militia is the whole of the people in the country who could and would fight on behalf of the U.S. They respected and deeply trusted the citizen soldier.




cleverness?
If you're so clever, then surely you realize that ALL those other countries shield their citizens from financial devastation from medical bills. That alone is a huge achievement, one that we are a long way from, and which we will NOT achieve without implementing SINGLE PAYER.

And I am late to this business
of Amtrak, but the reasons the passenger train business became untenable are

1) gov't and union regulation made costs prohibitive (the term *featherbedding*---paying for work when no one performs any, much like UAW rules on *layoffs* where workers still get full pay--comes from the railroads),

2) gov't support for motor vehicles--it built the roads and bridges, et. al., while trains bought their own rights of way and paid for their own tracks and tunnels,

3) the same gov't support for airplanes, where gov't built airports and employed (-s--still does) air traffic controllers while trains provide all of their stations and personeel privately,

4) the same for river transport where gov't builds the docks and levees to compete against the private expenses trains pay.

The pt. still stands. Except for the military (and read Catch-22 there), the IRS, and providing perks for Cong., the gov't just is wasteful, spendthrift, and irresponsible.

I don't want its fingerprints on my medical history anywhere.

It works.....
For the government.

What "single-payer" countries?
The only industrialized, non-communist country with a "single-payer" system is Canada. All other nations have some form of private health care industry.

How To Spend $1.2tn - I

Obama's Second Stimulus Plan Includes $50 Billion For States And Infrastructure Projects.

Obama Will Provide Loans For Struggling Small Businesses At A Cost Of Approximately $5 Billion.

Obama Will Cover Loan Guarantees For The Auto Industry At A Cost Of Approximately $4 Billion.

Obama's Energy Plan Will Cost $150 Billion Over 10 Years, Equal To $15 Billion Annually And $60 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank Will Cost $60 Billion Over Ten Years; Equal To $6 Billion A Year And $24 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Early Education And K-12 Package Will Cost $18 Billion A Year; Equal To $72 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Home Foreclosure Prevention Fund Will Cost $10 Billion.

Obama's National Service Plan Will Cost $3.5 Billion A Year; Equal To $14 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Health Care Plan Will Cost $150 Billion; Equal To $600 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Will Increase Foreign Assistance Funding By $25 Billion.

Obama Will Provide $2 Billion To Aid Iraqi Refugees.

Obama Will Provide $1.5 Billion To Help States Adopt Paid-Leave Systems.

Obama Will Provide $1 Billion Over 5 Years For Transitional Jobs And Career Pathway Programs, Equal To $200 Million A Year And $800 Million Over Four Years.

Healthcare "crisis"
This entire "crisis" is a canard. First prices are artificially hacked up by all sorts of regulations restricting competition with the medical community, then the lawyers and the insurance companies are blamed for the ever growing costs of health care.

I post this question repeatedly. What will a person NOT pay to save their life or stop suffering pain?

Medical costs are the result of a monopoly on the medical profession that at this point is global in its scope, from the pharmaceutical companies to the academic institutions that limit access to training, to the governments who cowtow to both through endless regulations, making any attempt to even skirt the edges of something that might be considered "medicine" highly risky from the legal standpoint.

They have even gone so far to ban certain simple foodstuffs in America because of naturally ocurring statins, on the off chance someone might benefit from the low cost access to this supposed "drug".


Isn't the USA
37th on the list of best health care in the world?

Agaqi
"China in theory has controls on internal movements, but in reality it has none. A person in Changsha can go and find work in Guangzhou easily, now does that mean workers aren't at times abused, no, but to state that you are going to be trapped in."

In what conceivable reality is this any sort of excuse or explanation?

Here's what happens to people in China who flout the law.

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/03/29/list-of-china-mod ern-torture-methods-photo/

This dissembling of yours sickens me in light of these human rights abuses. If you're going to pretend to stand up for something good and decent, then do it for real. I already know way too much to fall for your pro-China rhetoric.

Will "Pay-Go" Really Pay?
With his first two federal budgets projecting the largest deficits in U.S. history, each above a trillion dollars, Mr. Obama wants to be seen speaking the gospel of fiscal discipline and distancing himself from the free-spending ways of Congress, of which he was a member for four years.

With his first two federal budgets projecting the largest deficits in U.S. history, each above a trillion dollars, Mr. Obama wants to be seen speaking the gospel of fiscal discipline and distancing himself from the free-spending ways of Congress, of which he was a member for four years.

“Paying for what you spend is basic common sense. Perhaps that's why, here in Washington, it's been so elusive,” he needled an audience in the East Room this afternoon that included some House members.

But briefing reporters, White House Budget Director Peter Orszag conceded some of PAYGO’s limitations. It doesn’t cover discretionary spending.

“PAYGO only applies to the mandatory side of the budget and to revenue,” said Orszag. That means entitlement programs such as Medicare and revenue programs like taxes. It’ll cover the compulsory health care plan the president wants Congress to pass – but over five or 10 years. In a single year, the plan may exceed PAYGO limits.

It will not covered the "public option" of Obama Care.

In addition, about 40 percent of the federal budget, programs for education, energy, the military, etc., would not be covered by PAYGO, said Orszag. A different set of Senate and House rules apply to those programs, he said.


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/09/politics/politicalh otsheet/entry5076078.shtml

How To Spend $1.2tn - VI

Obama Says He Will Restore Funding To The Community Development Block Grant Program. Returning CDBG Program Funding To FY 2000 Levels Would Require $2.447 Billion In Additional Spending Per Year, Equal To $9.788 Billion.Obama Has Proposed A Credit Card Rating System, To Be Implemented By The FTC. Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation That Proposed This Rating System, At A Cost Of $10 Million Per Year, Equal To $40 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Would Expand Loan Programs For Small Businesses, As Specified In The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act He Co-Sponsored. The Congressional Budget Office Estimated The Cost Of The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act Of 2007, A Bill Co-Sponsored By Obama, At $3.4 Billion Over Five Years; Equal To $680 Million Per Year And $2.72 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Assist High School Students With Obtaining Access To College-Level Courses. Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation To Achieve This, Which Authorizes $50 Million Per Year, $200 Million Over Four Years.



How To Spend $1.2tn - VI

Obama Says He Will Restore Funding To The Community Development Block Grant Program. Returning CDBG Program Funding To FY 2000 Levels Would Require $2.447 Billion In Additional Spending Per Year, Equal To $9.788 Billion.Obama Has Proposed A Credit Card Rating System, To Be Implemented By The FTC. Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation That Proposed This Rating System, At A Cost Of $10 Million Per Year, Equal To $40 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Would Expand Loan Programs For Small Businesses, As Specified In The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act He Co-Sponsored. The Congressional Budget Office Estimated The Cost Of The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act Of 2007, A Bill Co-Sponsored By Obama, At $3.4 Billion Over Five Years; Equal To $680 Million Per Year And $2.72 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Assist High School Students With Obtaining Access To College-Level Courses. Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation To Achieve This, Which Authorizes $50 Million Per Year, $200 Million Over Four Years.



How To Spend $1.2tn - V

Obama Would Close The "Doughnut Hole" In The Medicare Part D Prescription Drug Program. Based On Estimates From The Congressional Budget Office, Closing The "Doughnut Hole" Would Cost Approximately $39.18 Billion In The First Fiscal Year Of Obama's Administration; Equal To $156.72 Billion Over Four Years. "Closing It Would Roughly Double The Cost Of The Medicare Prescription Drug Program, However, And Obama Offers No Way To Pay For It."

Obama Would Repeal The Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) And Government Pension Offset (GPO). Eliminating The WEP Would Cost $32.7 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $3.27 Billion A Year And $13.08 Billion Over Four Years. Eliminating The GPO Would Cost $38.1 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $3.81 Billion A Year And $15.24 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Implement The Lugar-Obama Legislation To Crack Down On The Smuggling Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. According To The Congressional Budget Office, Implementing The Lugar-Obama Legislation (S. 2566) Would Cost $2.2 Billion Over Five Years, Which Averages Out To $440 Million Per Year And $1.76 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Has Proposed Creating "A National Network Of Public-Private Business Incubators" At A Cost Of $250 Million Per Year; Equal To $1 Billion Over Four Years.

How To Spend $1.2tn - IV

Obama Would "Lead A Global Effort To Secure All Nuclear Weapons And Material At Vulnerable Sites Within Four Years." Obama Said This Could Be Funded By Ending The War In Iraq, At A Cost Of $10 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Proposes Doubling Funding For The Consumer Product Safety Commission. In FY 2008, The CPSC Was Funded At $80 Million. Doubling Funding Would Cost An Additional $80 Million Per Year, Equal To $320 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Has Proposed $2 Billion In Additional NASA Funding.

Obama Will Increase The Maximum Pell Grant To $5,400 And Ensure The Grant Keeps Pace With The Rising Cost Of College Inflation. The National Taxpayers Union Estimated This Would Cost $7.08 Billion Per Year, Equal To $28.32 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Spend $200 Million A Year To Develop "Regional Clusters" To Spur "Smart-Growth Strategies," Equal To $800 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Would Spend $5 Billion Over 10 Years To Protect And Restore The Great Lakes, Equal To $500 Million A Year And $2 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Increase PEPFAR Funding By $2 Billion.

How To Spend $1.2tn - III

Obama Would Provide $250 Million To "Bring Quality Teachers Back To The Gulf Region."

Obama Would Spend $1 Billion A Year In Autism-Related Funding By The End Of His First Term.

Obama Would Add "65,000 Soldiers To The Army And 27,000 Marines," Which Would Cost Approximately $11.04 Billion Per Year, Equal To $44.16 Billion Over Four Years. It Costs Approximately $1.2 Billion A Year For 10,000 Soldiers.

Obama Would Provide An Additional $1 Billion Per Year In Non-Military Assistance To Afghanistan, Equal To $4 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Plans To Implement Legislation That Would "Triple Non-Military Aid To The Pakistani People. It Would Authorize $7.5 Billion Over Five Years, An Increase Of Approximately $5 Billion In Spending, Equal To A $1 Billion Increase Per Year.

Obama Would Spend $5 Billion Over Three Years To Create A Shared Security Partnership.

How To Spend $1.2tn - II

Obama Would Double Federal Funding For Basic Research. According To The Congressional Research Service, Federal Basic Research Funding For FY 2007 Was $28.2 Billion; To Double This Funding Level Over Four Years Would Equal $112.8 Billion.

Obama Would Enact The Responsible Fatherhood And Healthy Families Act Which He Co-Sponsored. Obama's Responsible Fatherhood And Healthy Families Act Would Cost $528 Million Over Three Years.

Obama Supports Creating A National Catastrophe Fund, Similar To The One Passed By The House - Which Authorized $20 Million Per Year For The Fund; Equal To $80 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Would Spend $500 Million A Year For Religious Organizations To Help The Disadvantaged; Equal To $2 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Proposed Spending $90 Million A Year To Double The Manufacturing Extension Partnership; Equal To $360 Million Over Four Years.

Obama Proposed Creating $10 Billion In Additional Mortgage Revenue Bonds, At A Cost Of $50 Million To The Federal Government.

Obama Would Extend Trade Adjustment Assistance To Service Industries. The Cost Of Extending Trade Adjustment Assistance To Service Industry Workers Was Scored By The Congressional Budget Office At $2.5 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $250 Million Per Year And $1 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Would Double Funding For The Jobs Access And Reverse Commute (JARC) Program. According To The U.S. Federal Transit Administration, The JARC Program Was Authorized $156 Million In FY 2008; To Double JARC For Four Years Would Cost $624 Million.

Obama Supports Funding The National Science Foundation's Advanced Technological Education Program At $192 Million per year.

Obama Would Provide $25 Million A Year For States To Develop Early Assessment Programs To Increase College Readiness; Equal To $100 Million Over Four Years.

How To Spend $1.2tn - I

Obama's Second Stimulus Plan Includes $50 Billion For States And Infrastructure Projects.

Obama Will Provide Loans For Struggling Small Businesses At A Cost Of Approximately $5 Billion.

Obama Will Cover Loan Guarantees For The Auto Industry At A Cost Of Approximately $4 Billion.

Obama's Energy Plan Will Cost $150 Billion Over 10 Years, Equal To $15 Billion Annually And $60 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank Will Cost $60 Billion Over Ten Years; Equal To $6 Billion A Year And $24 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Early Education And K-12 Package Will Cost $18 Billion A Year; Equal To $72 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Home Foreclosure Prevention Fund Will Cost $10 Billion.

Obama's National Service Plan Will Cost $3.5 Billion A Year; Equal To $14 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama's Health Care Plan Will Cost $150 Billion; Equal To $600 Billion Over Four Years.

Obama Will Increase Foreign Assistance Funding By $25 Billion.

Obama Will Provide $2 Billion To Aid Iraqi Refugees.

Obama Will Provide $1.5 Billion To Help States Adopt Paid-Leave Systems.

Obama Will Provide $1 Billion Over 5 Years For Transitional Jobs And Career Pathway Programs, Equal To $200 Million A Year And $800 Million Over Four Years.

LOL
Sorry, but this is comical.

People from around the world leave their socialized medicince behind and come to the US to get any major surgeries taken care of. Why is this... because we have a poor health care system? Hardly. Probably because we have the best health care system in the world, and you don't have to wait 6 months for an MRI. The only thing that is "broken" about the health care system is the cost, which is fixable. Removing our entire healthcare system and replacing it with one that has failed time and time again in numerous countries throughout the world is simply foolish.

But then again, this administration is full of fools

Chuck, ME
"St. Denis
You are wasting your talents here. You are needed in Washington advising some legislators with R's after their names."


As a fiscally-conservative CONSTITUTIONALIST without party affiliation, I believe that ALL Pols need some advice.

Did you know that I got a job offer from the Feds? After dealing with 3 hurricanes in the last 4 years, I am unsure that I want to live in a cesspool.

But, thanks!

St. Denis
You are wasting your talents here. You are needed in Washington advising some legislators with R's after their names.

Akagi says:
"And in many ways American healthcare is miserable, rationed, expensive, and substandard as well."

Other than the "expensive" part, that is simply a moronic statement.

WTF Happened?
We have ~800,000

Divide than and you will be Subjected to rational. 37mn pwomw dre swewint ten oof OSIN SAE

Some school districts are now resorting to hiring teachers from the Philippines because many American union teachers are unable to meet the Federal standards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good grief! TH is screwing up my post!

We have ~800,000 doctors.

We have ~305mn people in the US.

Divide than and you will know that there will be rationing.

37mn people will still be without insurance coverage in 2019, according to the CBO.


If any computer geek wants to take a wack at this: "37mn pwomw dre swewint ten oof OSIN SAE"

Please let me know WTF that means and what computer language it is.

I speak several languages, but I think that one is WAY out there.


Agaki

Crazies to the Left of Me, Wimps to the Right ... here I am stuck in the middle, again.

The problem that remains for ObamaCare (in addition to the upwards of a $4tn price tag) is that we have ~305mn people in the US with only ~800,000 doctors.

Akagi

Well I don't know why Cubans risk their lives to leave an Islan paradise.

I do know Cuba has all the things Libeals want for us here and people are dying to leave.


I do know Healthcare in the United States was number 1 before the Liberals decided to get the Government involved.

Joel
The Constitution ONLY authorizes a permanent Navy. A standing Army is not lawful; that's why we had/have militias. This is just one of the places where the Constitution is in need of simple PLAIN language amendments.

Another necessary amendment that I have heard no one suggest is that WE THE PEOPLE ought to set the rules for the House and Senate so that we are certain none of our voices will be silenced.

texas tea party
You go girl! Gotta love the Republic of Texas!

Gubmint medical care has been likened
to the experience at the local DMV or Post Office. I, unfortunately, got a better example of gubmint at work this AM when I took my errant son to two different courthouses to pay traffic fines. Since courts aren't about justice anymore (my son should loose his license)I got to witness the take-a-number crowd of assorted people trying to answer to some type of case or another by opening their wallets. Yep, in the revolving door of the court, judge takes plea and sets the fine, baliff prints out the mountains of paperwork with future dates if needed, and defendants/guilty go out to the payment windows where they take a number again to arrange payments or payment plans, with even more paperwork. And there are PLENTY of service windows! They even have electronic take-a-number machines---more efficient than that old pull one off a tab roll! Who'da thunk? At the second courthouse there are 4 different jurisdictions served in one place by a certain number of windows. In "ours" there were four windows but all had closed signs on them. Go figure. Then we all waited for the slug public employee dealing with the public and her counterpart dealing with the lawyers to amble back to the various desks or files at least 50 feet away to retrieve something or the other. At that time I had a vision of going to a hospital with a near gushing arterial wound and waiting for someone to amble back to the supply room to requisition a band aid.... you get the picture. Heaven help us if this flies; we'd all do well to have an MD as our "bestest" friend!
Just remember --- if you want justice you go to the wh---house; if you want to get screwed, go to the courthouse (or any gubmint office).

I wish
I had a used car lot and I could hire Obama, that guy could sell golf clubs to Stevie Wonder.

The celebrity solution
Throwing a few hollywood figures around:

The movie, Night at the Museum took in $572 million.

The show, Grey's Anatomy cast made $33 million/season.

Da Vinci Code made $1.1 BILLION.

Pirates/Caribbean made $100 million.

Liberal Steven Spielberg made $100 million in a year.

Liberal Oprah Winfrey made $260 million last year.

There are 9-10 million people in this country who truly need help paying for health care.

There, I just solved the health care access problem in this country...if liberals want to solve the problem, solve the problem.







Lies, lies, and more lies coming from
the MSM and the bozos in D.C. The MSM is disgusting. They and the Congress, along with Obama, ignore our voices, faxes, petitions, letters, phone calls, tea parties, and every other conceivable attempt we make to get them to listen to us. There is no doubt that they hear us. However, they simply flip us the bird and continue to do as THEY want, the People be damned. It is clear--- they don't give a damn about the Constitution either. Throwing ALL of them out at once is actually the best way to go. The only Rep or Sen that I would even consider keeping would be one who insisted on presenting a bill that started a review of EVERY federal program and immediately cut funding for all that have been created without clear constitutional authority for its existence. Of course, then we'd have the scumbags drag SCOTUS into the fray, even though it has no authority in such matters. I know therefore that it would never fly even if it made it to the floor. However, we need someone with the cajones to at least try! Of course, we NEED a constitutional amendment that allows THE PEOPLE to set the rules for the House and Senate to keep these ba$tards under control. Until then, I'm sick to death of petitions and the like. It's time to "just say no".

Terry
It is not perfect, and did I say it was and neither is the US system. It does spend more than it takes in and this has to be made up by the government spending money from the general fund as it is unwilling to raise the cost to the consumers. But 6% against 16% and a over 70% satisfaction to the sub-50% of the US system, I'll take the Taiwan system.

AIDS is a serious problem in the US too and a much greater problem in the US than in Taiwan.

If you were a liberal Terry who used wiki to justify your position you'd have been slammed, but I won't. It is basically accurate, but do you need a doctor to see you for 30 minutes and tell you you have a cold and not too much shorter than what you get from US doctors.

Roach:

China in theory has controls on internal movements, but in reality it has none. A person in Changsha can go and find work in Guangzhou easily, now does that mean workers aren't at times abused, no, but to state that you are going to be trapped in.




Frank
"Then, a flood of Turks started coming in and you know how Germans just love the darker races...."

Turkish labor was a mainstay of Germany since the 1960s. It wasn't as you imply the Turks came in after unification. Today people of Turkish origin are even in the German parliment and since the late 1990s German citizenship has been extended to Turks (and others) born on German soil.

Re: Akaqi
A: "People can basically live where they want in China...go to the boom cities of Guangzhou some time,"

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=335

"Each year, millions of Chinese citizens travel from impoverished inland villages to take their first industrial jobs in China's export factories. Young and mostly female, they are sent by their parents in search of wages to supplement their families' income. They join an enormous submerged caste of temporary factory workers who are stripped of civil and political rights by China's system of internal passport controls."

Here's Newsweek lying about the system being defunct since the 70's.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/137477

This is why Americans think it's all our fault. We are systematically robbed of the truth. You will have to scour the internet pretty hard to find actual, full and complete reportage of the internal passport system.

It will be decades before workers have rights in China even if that were the goal. Anyone who watches that nation knows that is not actually the goal at all to begin with.

Akagi
Is the below the Taiwan Health Care system you're raving about?

"Even with all their success in their health care system, Taiwan has suffered some misfortunes. The government is not taking in enough money to cover the services it provides, so it is borrowing money from banks.[9] The revenue base is capped so it does not keep pace with the increase in national income. Premiums are regulated by politicians[10] and they are afraid to raise premiums because of voters. The country is slow at adopting technology except for drugs. There is a low doctor-to-population ratio resulting in too many patients depending on too few doctors. Patients visit the doctor more frequently causing doctors to keep visits short to about 2 to 5 minutes per patient.[11] There is no system to regulate systematic reporting of clinical performance, patient outcomes and adverse events.

In November 2004, the Department of Health announced that Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (HIV/AIDS) had become an increasingly serious problem in Taiwan.[1] The first reported case surfaced in 1984.[1] In 2004 there were 6,850 known cases, with 92.9 percent of the infections occurring in Taiwanese and 7.1 percent in foreigners.[1] In 2003 there were 860 new cases of HIV infections, and by October 2004, 1,120 new cases were confirmed on the island.[1] This announcement was followed by the launching of a new public awareness campaign.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Taiwan


Maybe their doctor to patient ratio is why you've seen clinics open so late?

St. Denis
I think Steve's hopes for a NWO will be dashed. Who would control this NWO...well the US and the other major powers of the world, not Mali and is Mali going to want to be part of it? Even the countries that would would not want to lose even a small amount of their control, you see that in the US over NAFTA and the WTO.

How about the different legal customs...Islamic Law or Western or Confucian or whatever, the role of women, it would be impossible.

I lived in a socialist country too and it was not nearly at nightmarish as you describe, but today much of that socialism has been discarded.




Germany and Turks...
I know history is a touchy subject on right wing web sites but lets give it a try folks. Before the wall came down, Germany was split in two. Tens of millions lived in the former East Germany and they had basically no marketable skills. In the early 90s, they all became good little Germans when the West decided to absorb the entire nation. Then, a flood of Turks started coming in and you know how Germans just love the darker races....

Health Care ... How Exactly?
The stupidity of liberals on this issue is breath taking. Having said that the overarching problem with any "government" (here read "tax payer" funded universal health care system is simple:

We ... can't ... afford ... it.

Last I looked Obama had us in debt well into the next century. How, exactly, is he going to take about 1/5 of the economy out of the private sector at this juncture?

Social Security is going to go belly up.
Medicare and Medicade are going to go belly up.

Fannie & Freddie have ALREADY essentially gone belly up.

We ... can't ... afford it.


Akagi
What goes into the "ranking" of a health care system? And don't you first have to have a "health care system"?

The United States does not have a "Health Care System" anymore than we have a restaurant, construction or farming "system". It is the "system" that the government wants to impose.

We have private medical care in this country. And over the years, our private system has been saturated with government laws, rules and regulations. And so amazingly enough, after the government has done everything it can to cripple the medical industry, they stand back and proclaim: "The system is broke."

All in the world we would have to do in order to make medical care better and more affordable, is to get the government out of it. We don't need a "system" like Taiwan or anyone else.


To Augo
I would be far more impressed with your tales of successful socialized medicine, if Germany a few years back hadn't desperately tried to get aging Turks to leave the country before they started drawing heavily on the social system that their own labor had been supporting.

Sounds a bit like 'exploit em, then dump em'. In fact, having now tired of having Turks working for the Greater Glory of Germany, the Germans have hastily laid many Turkish workers off (now that the economy slowed down) and is looking for ways to get rid of them, now that they represent more of a drain on the social system rather than a willing force of low-cost drudge workers.

If that is how Germany is having to support its system, then no thanks.


Peggy
"Which countries would those be? It certainly is not Canada or Britain. Their health care is miserable, rationed, expensive, and substandard. They come HERE to have important life saving tests, treatment and surgeries."

And again--try Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong. And the WHO filled with those hate America Japanese, Brits and Bahamaians, rated both Canada and the UK far above the US' health care system and their own citizens are far more satisfied with their health care there than Americans are with theirs. In fact most do not come to the US for treatment and few Canadians or subjects of the UK would favor going to a US-like system.

And in many ways American healthcare is miserable, rationed, expensive, and substandard as well.

False concerns are easy to argue...
I think the debate on healthcare would go a lot farther if those on the right would debate the merits of what Obama is saying, and presenting in his policy. It doesn't help anybody to provide strawmen which confuse the general public, and misrepresent what is on the table. As someone who is middle-left, I feel that my conservative concerns are not being addressed because politicians on the right would rather fight against their imaginary fears, than the true issues on the table.

Akagi & A NWO

The latest salvo about a NWO was lobbed last night by a Socialist named Steve. You can check out our debate on the Stossel thread.

I agree that he has black helicopters circling inside of his small skull.

Idopas
1. In response to a poster, you wrote: "Anatomy is the same, unles you know something everyone else doesn't." Sorry, you are the misinformed layman. As a physician who specializes in treating the Developmentally Disabled and Mentally Retarded, I can assure you that we are not all the same - anatomically, physiologically, genetically, etc.

2. You, also, referred to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" as a reason to not own a gun. Actually, the Commandment is: You shall not MURDER. The punishment for murder was EXECUTION.

Tell us, Master.....
Which countries would those be? It certainly is not Canada or Britain. Their health care is miserable, rationed, expensive, and substandard. They come HERE to have important life saving tests, treatment and surgeries. The bozo's in Government are not even capable of handling Medicare with efficiency and they want to take in 300 MILLION more into a corrupt, fraudulent system?? Please!! To away!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why
Hong Kong hates the US since when?
The Bahamas? Brazil? Canada? Japan? the ROK? The UK????? Give me a break! Did you even see who was on the Executive Board and who served as director-general?

The NWO, eh? I suppose you hear black helicopters at night too.

Outrage Party Unite!
I can see that you are again getting your gander up about another outrage. This time its about having every single citizen in America have medical care just like the good people of all the other civilized nations. I know, its immoral to take my money to let that poor slacker Johnny get a check up. My money is mine and there is no way you are going to get your mitts on it to help anyone but my family and the folks I care about. What? Care about other Americans? Are you joking? Thats UnAmerican for goodness sake. Why our founders themselves did not have health care and they were just fine thank you very much. I know its hard to fathom this simple concept but lets get it out in the clear.

Your money or your life.

There, that's the best system on the planet.

Akaqi
You want us to believe the WHO about anything?

LMFAO!!!!

1.run by the U.N. (useless nitwits)
2.ALL of the board members of the WHO are from certified USA hating countries.

Take your NWO BS elsewhere

Alison
"Not one.

Not even one.

His whole speech was one typical lie
after another.

That's the Obama style."

And you know this thanks to your long term residence in a number of these countries. So tell us how many of these countries have you lived in and for how long? And how many times have you had the pleasure to evaluate their health care services?

It indeed does work in Taiwan, it works in Singapore, it works in Hong Kong and a number of other places. Now you can take my position which is that the US will be unable to make it work in the US because of its size and due to the fact the US does little well, but that is not the same as saying it doesn't work anywhere. That is at best an incorrect statement and at worst a bald faced lie.


The King Of The Flies Abdicates II

We have more than 305mn people in this country.

When you kill one of your "suckers", especially a possibly pregnant fly, your people want nothing more to do with you.

Flies Unite!

If you disagree with him, he will squash you like a bug.

Where Is PETA? PETA is off in Seattle protesting the way the fishermen throw around dead fish (no, not Rahm Emanuel). They say that it is disrepectful to the dead. I kid you NOT.

Calling Planned Parenthood and Dr. Tiller's sucessor!

Since the fly was possibly pregnant, would not have Obama wanted to use tax dollars to send it to Planned Parenthood for verification?

If it had been pregnant, would he not have given it the "freedom of choice" to visit Dr. Tiller's successor.

Of course, if the baby flies had been born alive due to a flawed fly fetus abortion, the BAFPA (Born Alive Fly Protection Act) would not have applied. No, Obama would have insured that the Mother Lode had the right to let the baby flies die, cold and alone, inside of an utility closet.

Live free or die? I think NOT.


For those not in the know, Rush killed a fly on television in 1995. Why do you not know this? The state-run media did not run endless, breathless loops of the fly murder.

We have ~800,000

Divide than and you will be Subjected to rational. 37mn pwomw dre swewint ten oof OSIN SAE


Some school districts are now resorting to hiring teachers from the Philippines because many American union teachers are unable to meet the Federal standards.

What Would Jefferson Do?
I wonder where it says in the US Constitution the US can engage in real estate deals? Your fantasy about the Constitution has always been just that, a fantasy.

Countries Where it Works Well?

Not one.

Not even one.

His whole speech was one typical lie
after another.

That's the Obama style.

Happy Jake
"The use of Amtrak to support the idea that the government runs things as well as the private sector fails on one count: obsolescence."

That is not what people were doing. They were using Amtrak to prove that the government can't run anything well and thus it can't be trusted to run the medical system. This may be a valid point, but Amtrak is not the example to prove this. Amtrak was created when the private sector failed. The government is doing no worse a job that the private sector did. And as for rail, not all government railways are run badly or at a loss--Taiwan's Taiwan Railway Administration one example.

A must read
Please read through this site folks. It has some of the most valuable information about nationalized health care that one can find.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/soci alized.html

If these stories (and there are hundreds) don't frighten the diaper off older Americans as well as everyone else, then I don't know what could.




How many of you lived outise the USA?
It is amusing to hear so many pontificate on the health care systems of other countries when so few have direct experience of their systems. I lived in England for 9 years and my wife is from there. In addition, we keep in touch with her relatives many of whom are older and who are facing many ailments. In addition, I am VP of company that has its European offices in Spain. We even have some former Cubans working in our Spanish office. As someone in my mid 60s I have experienced health systems in Europe and the US. The US does not have a monopoly on quality medical care. Period. There is a good reason why we our infant mortality rate is worse than 40+ other countries and our life expectancy is bested by almost 50 other countries. It is not all the fault of our medical system but more our lifestyle. I know of no one, friends or families, that live in England who have faced major illnesses (cancer for example) who "fly to the US" to get treatment. Certainly, there are some wonderful doctors in the US that are world leaders in their field. But advancements of medical science are also occurring elsewhere. Look at the research headquarters of the major pharmaceutical companies. Many of them are in Western Europe.

The bottom line. You may not be for a "universal health care system". But at least get your facts straight.

Govt Health Care
Everytime the private sector demands we stay out of their affairs and limit regulation we,the people who dont think flouride is a commie plot, take it in the face as they come back to us hat in hand and buried in debt...See the Reagan Revolution for instance and how many banks failed within 5 years of being deregulated?Clinton was no better in the long run as he ran with the Gop led congress and further deregulated the mortgage industries,He once bragged that more minority people bought homes under his admin than any other..How many of those minorities and others were foreclosed upon DUE TO DEREGULATION and how many banks were facing their own bankruptcies had the govt not bailed their butts out?...If you continue trusting the banks,the oil companies and corporate America in general to do the right thing by us then you deserve to be paying taxes thru the colon because every time we give them rope they hang us with it.

Akagi
The use of Amtrak to support the idea that the government runs things as well as the private sector fails on one count: obsolescence. Private industry can't keep passenger rail in business because it is obsolete. Air travel is much faster and more reliable. Road travel is cheaper and more convenient, particularly for family trips. Rail travel died privately because it was supposed to. Using the logic that the government should run a passenger railroad is like arguing that they should continue to provide analog, over-the-air TV service, dial-up internet service, or a print newspaper. Those services are, by and large, no longer needed. Yes, there are people who still use them for various and sundry reasons, but not enough to keep the industries afloat, since there are better options available to the vast majority of consumers. If Amtrak were scrapped, I'd wager a few private companies would start up regional service where the train may still be as good as an airplane (Say Richmond to Boston, Detroit to Minneapolis, LA to Seattle, something on those lines).

Basically it works like this: why would anyone take a train from DC to LA, which if you leave today, you'll get there on Saturday or Sunday (depending upon the route) and costs at least $380 EACH WAY for COACH when you can spend less than that for a round-trip plane ticket and be in LA in 8 hours?

Bruce
You're kidding, right? Have you ever had to fill out the paperwork required to get Medicare approval for treatment? I've seen it. Medicare and Medicaid are the PRIMARY reason the rest of us prefer the private sector.

I've seen how government healthcare works. It took my wife's agency 6 months, yes, I said 6 MONTHS to change her name on her insurance and that was AFTER the 6 weeks it took the SSA to issue her a new card (which, for reasons that escape me, couldn't be typed up and handed to her in the SSA office when she asked for the change.) I've also dealt with Tricare (the military's insurance) and military and Veterans' hospitals. It's a joke.

The absolute last thing that any of us want is some unaccountable, unfirable GS-10 bureaucrat deciding whether or not to approve life-saving treatment. Yes, I'd much rather it be a private company because with private companies, you have a CHOICE. My company recently scrapped their contract with one insurance provider in favor of another because the employees complained.

Shane
"Yeah, that sort of thing will happen if you threaten to jail people for trying to move closer to your infrastructure, won't it?"

People can basically live where they want in China...go to the boom cities of Guangzhou some time, plenty of people from Sichuan and Yunan and Hunan there. They are called the Mengliu (the blind flow) and have been key to the labor force in the boom cities for years. But just like doctors in the US, if you are a doctor in China you aren't going to want a job in rural Hunan or even in the city of Changsha as far as that goes, but places like Shenzhen or Guangzhou or Xiamen. Failure to get doctors into rural China is one of the biggest issues that China has faced and most Chinese do in fact live in the rural areas not places like Shanghai and Guangzhou.

Useful
Yes Cuba does indeed have health care and the WHO ranked Cuba at 39th in the world, two spots behind the US at 37th. People don't flee Cuba because of health care nor to the US because of it. If you wanted to flee TO someplace for health care, I'd pick maybe Singapore or Japan (both in the top ten).


Terry
"Where for instance, in some of these other countries, can people call 911 in the middle of the night and have an ambulance with paramedics arriving sometimes in minutes, saving the lives of heart attack victims and such in many cases -- where else does this happen?"

In Taiwan and you call 119.

"And I have seen none of these places with anything remotely close to the quality and availability of medical treatment as we have."

Guess you've gone to the wrong countries. I note that clinics in Taiwan are also open far later than in the US, I've seen dentist and doctor offices opened as late as 9 and 10 p.m.

"So yes, you can call what they have "health care", but it ain't what we think of in terms of health care. And ours won't be either if the government winds-up owning."

I might add the last time the WHO ranked health care systems, most of the countries you people complain about as having poor systems ranked higher than the US did.


Cuba has Government Healthcare.

Cuba has all the things Liberals want for us here.

Unfortunately, people risk their lives to escape Cuba.

Words? Just Words?
Obama's words are the words of a liar.

What is "Health Care?"
Reading these posts, I see a number of them pointing-out where nationalized "health care" does in fact work. But what is meant by the term: health care?

Where for instance, in some of these other countries, can people call 911 in the middle of the night and have an ambulance with paramedics arriving sometimes in minutes, saving the lives of heart attack victims and such in many cases -- where else does this happen?

I have been to many of these countries that have nationalized health care as many of you probably have. And I have seen none of these places with anything remotely close to the quality and availability of medical treatment as we have.

So yes, you can call what they have "health care", but it ain't what we think of in terms of health care. And ours won't be either if the government winds-up owning.

BTW...Slaves on the plantations also had "health care." They were ALL "covered" too.

what will the future hold?
the end game: price controls and rationing

Akaqi
"Also note as for China, most of the issues are related to getting access to a doctor out in the hinterlands of say rural Gansu or Qinghai, access in Shanghai or Guangzhou or Beijing isn't an issue and something China is working to address."

Yeah, that sort of thing will happen if you threaten to jail people for trying to move closer to your infrastructure, won't it?

???????????????????????????????????

Sheeesh.

The Lord Of The Flies Has Abdicated (II)

Updated...

The Lord Of The Flies Has Abdicated (part deux)

When you kill one of your "suckers", especially a possibly pregnant fly, your people want nothing more to do with you.

Flies Unite!

If you disagree with him, he will squash you like a bug.

Where Is PETA? PETA is off in Seattle protesting the way the fishermen throw around dead fish (no, not Rahm Emanuel). They say that it is disrepectful to the dead. I kid you NOT.

Calling Planned Parenthood and Dr. Tiller's sucessor!

Since the fly was possibly pregnant, would not have Obama wanted to use tax dollars to send it to Planned Parenthood for verification?

If it had been pregnant, would he not have given it the "freedom of choice" to visit Dr. Tiller's successor.

Of course, if the baby flies had been born alive due to a flawed fly fetus abortion, the BAFPA (Born Alive Fly Protection Act) would not have applied. No, Obama would have insured that the Mother Lode had the right to let the baby flies die, cold and alone, inside of an utility closet.


For those not in the know, Rush killed a fly on television in 1995. Why do you not know this? The state-run media did not run endless, breathless loops of the fly murder.

Happy Jake
One thing that the government currently does better than the private sector is run a medical care system (Medicare and Medicaid) that directs the highest percentage of resources into care and the lowest percentage into administration and overhead.

Unlike so many who are utterly convinced that the private sector is wiser and more careful about spending, I've worked my entire life in corporate America and have seen the same size and type of waste, fraud, and abuse that people complain about in govt. I am not saying that govt is always the right answer, but by the same token it's not always the wrong answer.


Bill
Taiwan's population is comparable to Canada's (23 million against 33 million) and over twice the size of Portugal (Hong Kong has a population 60% of Portugal's), Taiwan is larger than every Scandinavian country. It has a population larger than 75% of the member nations of the UN. While not huge like Brazil, the US, or China, it is not tiny either.

Many of the countries you list have a higher ranked health care system by the WHO than the US (Taiwan is not listed since thanks to China it is not a member of the WHO). In this ranking the US ranks behind Costa Rica and just barely ahead of Cuba.

Also note as for China, most of the issues are related to getting access to a doctor out in the hinterlands of say rural Gansu or Qinghai, access in Shanghai or Guangzhou or Beijing isn't an issue and something China is working to address.


Bill in WA: Now, that is rich!
First, you declare the successes trivial, then you lump quite different systems together - Germany has not even a single payer system - and thus you prove what you have known to be the truth regardless of such trivia as facts.
Why then would we in Germany discuss the trivial Finnish system if there were not significant differences, and we would think we could learn form successful models?
Furthermore, to compare your system without giving consideration to the level of socio-economical development to one like Mozambik (for all African countries) that - given where they come from - has been quite successful, borders on the intellectually dishonest.
Even the much maligned system in the UK can only be appreciated when you know that for decades it had been underfunded. When you have spent a third of what the U.S. does, even the most efficient system would have a hard time to produce better outcomes.
If you were competing in athletics, would you copy your training methods from somebody succesful, or disregarding them because they come from such "trivial" places as Bahamas, Trinidad or Namibia.
Come on Bill, you can do better than that!

Socialized medicine
will be accomplished, but in stages, because the Left can take control only through deception. Conservatives can and do state their agenda. For example, they advocate choice--allowing market competition, because it always works to the benefit of the consumer, whether in movie rentals, breakfast cereals, or health care plans. They can furnish plenty of data to support that assertion. They can also cite many examples of failed socialist experiments, which once enacted, live on in perpetuity. There will be no taking away any socialist benefits, even if we have to import most of Mexico to pay for the entitlements.

Socialized medicine
will be accomplished, but in stages, because the Left can take control only through deception. Conservatives can and do state their agenda. For example, they advocate choice--allowing market competition, because it always works to the benefit of the consumer, whether in movie rentals, breakfast cereals, or health care plans. They can furnish plenty of data to support that assertion. They can also cite many examples of failed socialist experiments, which once enacted, live on in perpetuity. There will be no taking away any socialist benefits, even if we have to import most of Mexico to pay for the entitlements.

Justin
"It would just cease because, clearly, while people ride, they just don't value it enough to actually pay for it."

They do in fact, just the costs for the long haul routes don't bring in enough to actually break even. If these actually were made to pay that rate they would either shut down or slowly bleed to death.

"I have no use for a passenger rail system so Biden can ride the train home in the evening, so why do I pay for it?"

Biden's route actually makes a profit. If Amtrak closed tomorrow some other entity would pick up this route as it actually makes money. It is the non-commuter routes out of the Metroplex like NO to Chicago or Atlanta to LA or NYC to Miami that bleed the cash.

If the people riding Amtrack want Amtrack, they should foot 100% of the bill. If they won't, then it needs to go bankrupt and go away.

"Passenger rail is not valuable in this country because it cannot survive on its own. The cost exceeds the value it provides, that's why it loses money."

Depends on the route and this is true of many things. US highways are subsidized as is public education (k12 and post secondary), the national park system and even to a large extent the US airline industry. If you don't want long haul passenger service, fine with me (never have riden a long haul train in the US in my life)but passenger rail service failure in the US isn't because of the government but because other methods are cheaper (the bus)or faster (aircraft)or more convenient (private cars). Atlanta to Miami roundtrip costs nearly $400 and takes 1/2 a day. I can fly on Delta for $150 and it'll take me 2 hours. No one is going to spend $1000 and it take 6 times as long. Now if the US got high speed rail like Taiwan, Japan and France has, perhaps long haul rail would be viable.

So using Amtrak as a vehicle to attack government healthcare isn't a valid one.

O. in AZ: How do you get there?
If you believe all these measures are to be taken, pray, tell me who is to make sure that these things happens? Would they not call for a level of government intervention far above any single payer system for an area of life that is only partly adaptable to the free market?

Successful single payer health sytems???
Rather than dwell on trivial (tiny nations successful systems), the relevant list is countries in which single payer systems are failures. Canada, UK, Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, all eastern European nations, Russia, the Scandinavian nations, India, China, all African nations, Australia and New Zealand, Japan, both Koreas and all lesser Pacific countries.

Obama's health care objective is the latest attempt to bribe a majority of the public with their own and the remainder of the public's money. It makes no difference to Obama that health care will degrade and the costs will be a tipping point for bankrupting the US.

tryth
The truth is not in the moving lips, but in the end result.

Single Payer?
I’m certainly for taking responsibility for my own health and believe in the choice of healthcare versus the government mandated, ram it down your throat kind but some major changes are needed. For one, pharmaceutical companies need to be reigned-in big time in the way they peddle their poisons and gouge the public. Next, the freeloading deadwood insurance sector with questionable value-added contributions needs to be eliminated or at least shrunk to a reasonable level. We must also find a better process/mechanism that tamps down the greed from the medical establishment and the spiraling costs (other than the insurance quagmire). The medicos need to spend at least 50% of their efforts on prevention and not primarily in treating symptoms with the poisons of their buddies in the pharma industry. The process must be simplified so these rip-off artists don’t find 101 ways to gouge you and everyone knows up-front what they are getting into. In my opinion, the biggest problem is greed followed by a confusing (purposeful?) process. Doctors, like lawyers need to be taken down a peg or two; they are not, repeat NOT, the demigods too many people make them out to be!

@Sylvia in FL: How about Finland?
Finland has a publicly funded health care system that is on measured outcomes and patient satisfaction among the top. 88% of the - obviously brainwashed Finns - are satisfied with their system, compared to 41% of the European average. Expenditures are lower than the European average. In my country; Germany, we spend slightly more than they do, and our outcomes fall considerably short.
The Finnish system relies heavily on prevention, and that's probably what makes it so successful.
Now, of course, that must be a fairy tale because socialized medicine has to be a failure, does it not?

The Lord Of The Flies Has Abdicated


When you kill one of your "suckers", especially a possibly pregnant fly, your people want nothing more to do with you.

Flies Unite!

SYLVIA
I'll name there instead: Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong.

St. Denis
"How do you know?"

Because the reason Amtrak came into being was the private passenger train companies were bleeding cash and would soon have closed. The federal government made a judgement that passenger rail service was important and basically created a government subsidized passenger service. The rail routes in the Metroplex (DC--Baltimore--Philly--NYC--Boston) would turn a profit for a private entity, but NO to Chicago or Atlanta to LA? No.

So again this isn't a government issue. Private carriers wouldn't run those routes, so if you want those routes, it is either going to have to be the government doing it or the government is going have to carry much of the burden for doing it via subsidies.


Be careful with your logic, Mr. Jeffrey!
That the MSM are carrying water for the president in all probability is true. However, using your logic I could read a completely different cabal into it: The MSM don't report on Mr. Obama's appreciation of the single payer system because they don't want to incite adherents of that kind of system to ask the logical follow up: So why don't you do it, Mr. President?
Of course single payer is a political no no, and the government run alternative migth well be an Obama placebo to those who think that government should be involved. Once the insurance industry has found out it can dump the high risks on the government, the government system can't compete, and you can prove once and for all that government does not work in the U.S. and the issue is dead.
Outrageous reasoning? Well, once you assume that the president is not telling the truth why is your reading of what he intends to do more plausible than mine?
Oh, I forgot: Obama to you IS a socialist while I might consider him an apologist for capitalism desperately trying to save a basically unsavable system. But let's face it: we both are way off into political la-la-land.

Akagi
It would just cease because, clearly, while people ride, they just don't value it enough to actually pay for it. They ask for ME to pay for it. I have no use for a passenger rail system so Biden can ride the train home in the evening, so why do I pay for it?

If the people riding Amtrack want Amtrack, they should foot 100% of the bill. If they won't, then it needs to go bankrupt and go away.

Passenger rail is not valuable in this country because it cannot survive on its own. The cost exceeds the value it provides, that's why it loses money.

WHERE? WHAT COUNTRY WOULD THAT BE?
PLEASE NAME 1 (ONE)!I have lived and seen how it does not work in many such countries. But I will allow Obama to PLEASE NAME ONE!

To those on the Left
Name me one thing besides diplomacy, military, and public safety that the government does better and more efficiently than the private sector.

He's lying
If Obama's lips are moving you can be sure he is lying.
Of course he will say that people will have a choice whether they want to keep their current healthcare plan, but once the government starts providing healthcare it will put private insurance companies out of business. If this plan to socialize healthcare becomes reality it will be Washington bureaucrats who will be rationing healthcare and deciding on what treatments and medicine patients will be allowed.
We might as well brace ourselves for the inevitable. Very few politicians have the spine to stand up and fight against this tyrannical administration. It wouldn't do any good even if they did. Obama has gotten everything he wants by lying and cheating. It's his way of life.

Akagi
"Yes, and without government support there would be no long haul passenger trains left. You can argue that is a good thing, but this isn't the case of the public sector not being able to run a railroad but the fact that the private sector would be unwilling to do so. The private sector would have lost just as much or would have ceased operations."

How do you know? Roads and tollways are being in built and controlled by private enterprise.

Nixon nationalized a few rail lines because the number of riders had plummeted since most Americans were driving their own cars. He stated at the time that Amtrak would be profitable in 3 years; instead, it has become an annual teat-sucker. For long hauls, the numbers indicated that it would be cheaper to give out airline tickets. For instance, it costs the government more than $1K than it takes in each way to move (by Amtrak) people in NY to FL.

Not complete
svpallava

The complete list of "countries where single-payer works well or would work well":
(*) Vatican City
(*) Monaco
(*) San Marino
(*) Liechtenstein
(*) Andorra
(*) Maldives

It would also include Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan. None are the size of the US, but a country of 23 million isn't Monaco either.

St. Denis
"the Federal government has expanded and unconstitutionally taken upon itself powers that it does not have...."

It has been doing that since almost day one and it pre-dates the progressive movement by at least 30-40 years if not far earlier.

The end of the system the framers set up began on or about April 9, 1865.

St. Denis
"Nearly 40 years and $30bn later, we are still paying for Amtrak. I am paying for it even though I was still riding a bike with training wheels when it passed and have only rode on Amtrak a few times since I much prefer to fly."

Yes, and without government support there would be no long haul passenger trains left. You can argue that is a good thing, but this isn't the case of the public sector not being able to run a railroad but the fact that the private sector would be unwilling to do so. The private sector would have lost just as much or would have ceased operations.

Idopas useful idiot II
As for people dying from lack of health care, I'd like to see his proof of that. Under federal law, no one can be turned away from emergency rooms. Heck, illegals go to the ER for a cold. And we pay for their health care with our taxes. I heard yesterday on the radio that UK citizens and French citizens are going to the ER here in the US for surgeries, pretending to be on vacation so they can get the care they can't get at home.

The National Health Care Service, according to Theordore Dalyrmple, a doctor who works for the NHS, was fine right when it started and it took over the private hospitals. However, it has not maintained the infrastructure, so the hospitals are falling into disrepair, which maybe explains why you hear about urine soaked, dirty hospitals.

So, Idopas, keep peddling your propaganda here, but conservatives deal in facts, not bull shite.

Idopas useful idiot
There were a couple of UK professors at East Carolina University, one employed there and one visiting. They could barely contain their contempt for Americans as redneck bible thumping morons. In the South, we are Christians. They were both atheists and proud of it just like Idopas who doesn't have enough respect for others' beliefs to capitalize God. However, both of them wanted to live here. HMMMMMM, what was that about? One bought a big house with a pool and began proceedings to make his young son an American citizen. His French wife had no interest in becoming an American (DUH). He told me the thing he admired about America was that he could change his profession at will without other UK citizens disapproving because it just wasn't done. Hmmm, he has the right to pursue happiness, just like it says in our Declaration of Independence when we decided to leave Great Britain behind.

Idopas is bragging about common law. Well, common law can be changed by judges. As a lawyer, I can tell you that this country adopted English common law but since has passed statutes instead because our Constitution Bill of Rights' Fifth Amendment guarantees us prior notice of crimes in order to have the due process guaranteed by the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments. Idopas has contempt for the right to bear arms, but illegal guns are swamping the UK and only some of the cops can carry guns so the cops can't protect themselves from gun carrying criminals unless they know beforehand that they are facing an armed villain. Besides, Idopas forgets that when the citizens are armed, we have freedom. When only the government is armed, we have tyranny.


Government health care
In fact it does work well in some countries. Taiwan NHI program covers 90% of the population and spends only 6% of its GDP on health care and $900 (US) per person. Singapore is even better which spends only 3% of its GDP on health care. The US spends 16% and nearly $7,000 per head.

Singapore's cost controls would be difficult to export to the US, and it is equally doubtful the US could run a Taiwan-like NHI program in the US, but the claim by people like Hannity, Rowe and the like that government-run health care has failed everywhere it has been tried is simply untrue (I'll be kind and not call it a bald faced lie). Also note few in Canada or the UK would choose to adopt an American-sytle US-like system. Satisfaction of the UK's NHS and Canada's system are higher than American's satisfaction with their system.

Idopas

If I misnderstood you, I am sorry.

In the US, we have a Constitution, which lays out how we are governed, the rights of Americans (see the Bill of Rights), and describes what the Federal government may NOT do for us. The last point is much to the chagrin of Obama, who believes that the Constitution should be changed to include "positive rights" that will allow the government to DO whatever it wants FOR us.

I have great contempt for the Federal government, whether "ruled" by the Democrats or the Republicans. Since the Progressive movement began in this country at the turn of the last century, the Federal government has expanded and unconstitutionally taken upon itself powers that it does not have.

The General Welfare clause of the Constitution was crafted not as a catchall. It was limited and meant that what few things that may be considered for the "General Welfare" must be done for all. It was FDR that raced through the court an unconsitutional expansion of the clause.

The latest lunacy to come out of Washington is that a Healthcare Tsar has been named, a healthcare board will be created and function like the horrific Federal Reserve, and all Americans will be FORCED to become vaccinated against the Swine Flu. The vaccine is being produced by Baxter, which has a horrendous record of harming patients.

I am not an Obama supporter, in any stretch of the imagination.

I am a fiscally-conservative, Constitutionalist without party affiliation.

Idopas

Perhaps, I misunderstood you. If so, I am sorry.

We do have a Constitution here that specifies the government

Gee, I thought there might be some
truth in there.

If you have to lie to get on the thread to make your scintillating points, is it any wonder you get objections?

Where are you from in the UK? I have cousins in Croydon, Coventry, and north in Linlithgow and Glasgow.

You must be a member of the Labor Party, which Brown is taking down the tubes.

Socialism is beginning to die in Europe, a la the most recent continental and EU votes. Even as it seems new here to the *progressives,* the Eastern bloc and USSR have already hit the historical dust.

None of King Elect O's ideas are about improving health care or getting out of the recession but are about consolidating pol. power and control.

No control could be more complete than having all of your med. records on file in DC, like the IRS records Hillary Clinton mistakenly kept locked up in the White House safe for two years, while the docs. were under subpoena.

You already gave up your life to Downing Street, but we over here in the colonies do not have to do so.

Idopas
if you are from the UK, which I doubt, do US a favore, keep your opinion of health care in the UK.
The simple fact that our "leader" is running around the country trying to sell his health care plan like some door to door salesman peddling an overpriced product of low quality is telling enough for me.

about the pending health care bill

That monster health care bill (over a foot high) sitting in a Senate committee was to be available on a Friday with any proposed amendments to be due on Monday! As Lindsey Graham and others on the sane side have noted, that is no way to get bipartisan consensus, much less have our elected officials even comprehend what they are foisting on us.

There is something VERY suspicious about the routine shotgun nature modus operandi of what the ObaMessiah has been doing... even some liberals like Tom Harkin openly worry that the cure may be worse than the disease, i.e., we might simply add MORE cost and red tape without doing anything really to provide better health care.

When the late Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis metaphorically stated, “Sunlight is the best disinfectant,” he was referring to the development of public policies... how about a little "sunlight" in our policy-making and law making?!

I just saw a poll that 80% of Americans believe that the guvment should divest its interests in GM (Guvment Motors) and Chrysler ASAP... I don't think that is really what the ObaMessiah has in mind... it is easier to bleed the taxpayer for payback to the UAW as long as the guvment is directly involved.

Gallup also says that 40% of Americans identify themselves as conservative while only 21% call themselves liberal... since the ObaMessiah was THE MOST LIBERAL senator, it supports my theory that in voting for "change" many simply saw Amnesty John as more of the same neoCON (stay in Iraq forever), open border, clueless on the economy.

The election was NOT a mandate for big guvment, but instead a repudiation of what Dubya AND Congress generally had come to represent (graft, ineptitude, waste).


St. Denis In Obama's Red America
"- Paraphasing Daniel Hannan, MEP"

Again thank you. You are making my argument. BTW, you do know that dont you? Im not sure you do.

Hannan was voted in by us last week. Alonge with a huge right wing vote.

You on the other hand have a left leaning muslim in the whitehouse. And are spending not billions like us on the recession, but trillions.

And you have the cheek to be rude about us. LOL.

BETWyan
"BETWyan
Gee, sounds worthwhile to me!
Even a Euro wimp like Idoooapooas would believe that!!"

Im British you moron, stop referring to me as Euro. Shall I start referring to you as "the americas"?

The countries that make up Europe are all massively different. Some left leaning, some right leaning. Different languages, different cultures. Referring to it as an amorphous mass just shows your lack of any knowledge or intelligence.

And as for us being wimps, well I'll speak only for us a country the size of Maryland who stood alone against the much larger facist Nazis (and Italians) ALONE, while you wimped at home for three years. Wimps, I dont think so, we've got balls way bigger than yours.

Renny
"Someone writing from CA and claiming to be the voice of UK must be both displaced or dysfunctional."

Try exercising your brain cells a little more....

Its mandatory to put in a state, hence the CA. I joined here because I thought that putting a contra argument to the right wing nonsense here that doesnt always have anything to do with reality might be fun. And the most fun is that most here enjoy backing up their prejudices with people with like prejudices, whereas Im the party crasher.

I live in England. In Cheshire one of the wealthies counties in the UK. So Im neither displaced, or indeed dysfunctional.

Obama's rhetoric
When someone says "I'll be honest" keep in mind they are reserving the right to be dishonest.

Channeling Hannan
Weakness at home leads to weakness abroad...



"You cannot spend your way out of a recession or borrow your way out of debt. And when you repeat, in that wooden and perfunctory way, that our situation is better than others, that we are well placed to weather the storm, I have to tell you, you sound like a Brezhnev era apparatchik giving the party line. You know and we know and you know that we know that it's nonsense. Everyone knows that we are possibly worse off than at any other moment in our history as we go into these hard times. The world has said so. Our people have said so. The Chinese have said so as we monetize our money or, as Mr. Geithner would say, we use quantitative easing, which all others except you recognize to be monetization. The Germans, the French, the Russians, and Pravda have all but said so. The value of our dollar says so, which is why it is falling like a rock. In a 18 months, the voters will have their chance to say so, too. They can see what the fundamentals say and what those not drinking the Kool-Aid have seen all along: that you are the devalued Leader of a devalued Government."

- Paraphasing Daniel Hannan, MEP

IDOPAS
You keep bring this Christian thing up as a way of make your point. Unfortunately you use it as a pejorative. You take your limited knowledge of people of faith and what they believe in
and smugly use the words without any understanding what they mean. IN full disclosure I am not a Christian. I call myself a
Hopeful Agnostic. Have a nice day i am off to the Lakers parade

Guess Who Will Not Use ObamaCare?

Guess Who Will Not Be Involved In this Socialistic Experiment?

You get 3 choices becase all three branches of government will be exempt from ObamaCare.

They will not be subject to waiting periods, rationing, denial of treatment or substandard care.

You uhc/single-payer nuts will never get their Rolls Royce medical care with all of its amnenities. Oh, and they get paid while they are on leave.


Yes, Libtards, you will get crappy care while you man-loves in DC, and their pig counterparts like Piglosi, will be in a private suite in Bethesda.


Are you happy now?

Troll alert, anger at disagreement
Notice the trolls today sre particularly affronted at anyone's suggesting King Elect O's healthcare ideas are bunk and are bringing out the old Reps. and cons. *don't care enough* krap.

But I will point out the caring NYC in the 70s ran up welfare to nearly 25% of the city budget, technically bankrupting the city under Mayor Beam. The city had to borrow to survive but really became successful again after Giuliani cut the remaining 14% welfare to 7%.

Bubba's 1996 (cons.) Welfare Law cut national welfare rolls in half, and there was NO great dying in the streets the progressives and ilk screamed would happen. More people became productive, and children saw more working parents as role models.

Gov't is not a scalpel but an ax, as Reagan said. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the various CRAs are the major source of housing collapse in Am. recently and will keep banks and financials from real ec. health as long as those *institutions* are enforced by DC.

Amtrak loses a billion a year, yet people want to ride the trains and often cannot get space. The Post Office, a national necessity, lost a billion last year and has just raised the price of stamps again, cut staff, and is considering cutting Sat. deliveries.

As a kid, I knew twice a day deliveries 6 days a week and could mail a letter by 11 pm in Philadephia and see it arrive in Hoboken, NJ, by 11 am the next day, with no special overnight fee. I think stamps were 2 cents.

Keep the gov't out of healthcare any more than it is already, before Cong. bludgeons our med. system into a third world clinic.

Call 202-334 (225) 3121.

Bork Sotomayor.

Don't buy GM or Chrysler.

Buy gold.

Traditions?
What "traditions" is Obama talking about? Would the "traditions" be Medicare and Medicaid that he wants to "build on?"

I can't think of any other "traditions" that we have had, whereby incompetent government bureaucrats, who have absolutely no professional experience in the medical industry, have tried to manage medical care for American citizens -- other than Medicare and Medicaid.

There is a "tradition" that I would like to go back to though. And that is the tradition of not having to hear or see the President of the United States -- every 15 minutes.

St. Denis In Obama's Red America
"Unlike the UK, we have a Constitution. This is what OUR Constitution guarantees us."

Oh dear, now Ive got to give history lessons. Yes, you need it written down presumably so it can be looked at and translated into mexican or spanish.

Our legal framework of writes comes from case law enacted from centuries of legal case and precident. Its much richer than yours and is time tested, unlike yours.


"Idopas, Chew On This
We have more than 300mn people in this country.
We have ~800,000 doctors. Now, how would you propose that 800,000 doctors take care of more than 300mn people? Shoot, there are school districts in this country that are having to hire teachers from the Philippines because the union teachers cannot meet the Federal standards for math and science."

Erm, you do realise that you've made my case. Thanks. No I agree with you, some people over your country will clearly just up and die. Here they get treated.

Barry the Central Planner....
According to the CBO, Barry al Hussein's plan with cost at least 1 trillion dollars and still only insure about 16 out of the 40 million or so uninsured.

Gee, sounds worthwhile to me!

Even a Euro wimp like Idoooapooas would believe that!!

From the nations that brought us Hilter, Mussolini and Stalin ........more government, we need more government. More centralized power! One size fits all! Barry al Hussein will decide what kind of health insurance you have, what kind of car you will be permitted to drive and what temperature you will be allowed to set your thermostat at.

Centralized Planning, Command and Control Economy!

Mathew
"Lets get serious
IDOPAS lets get serious about this subject and stop flaming each other. I will repeat my challenge to you .
Google " Government Rationing Body" . Then come back and make your best case. Why is rationing medical care is inherently
good for me?"

I see what you are trying to do. But you know as well as I do that these are rare, very rare cases.

However, if you care to pay a bit more you can get BUPA or PPP to supply these things privately.

Exactly like your system, you only get what you pay for. EXCEPT, if I fall now with a heart attack I will have a crack team helping me survive, in your system I will need an insurance proof or is bye bye world.

PS I do realise you yanks just dont understand a system of care for all. And thats ok. Just dont comment from ignorance over there. Carry on with your healthcare only for people who can afford it, ill health and death for the rest. If you are happy with that...all power to you.


Idopas, Chew On This

We have more than 300mn people in this country.

We have ~800,000 doctors.


Now, how would you propose that 800,000 doctors take care of more than 300mn people?

Shoot, there are school districts in this country that are having to hire teachers from the Philippines because the union teachers cannot meet the Federal standards for math and science.

Idopas
"St. Denis In Obama's Red America: "Enough with this fairness shite! Life is not fair. We are not guaranteed fairness. We are not even guaranteed happiness. We ARE guaranteed the right to pursue happiness."

Unlike the UK, we have a Constitution. This is what OUR Constitution guarantees us.

"Wow, what an un christian attitude. Well we decided here that as a top 5 capitalist economy"

Capitalist? You had better tell the Socialists and New World Order people on TH because they believe that you are Socialist.

"we were going to ensure that anyone ill here, and that includes you if you come here"

Sorry, but I go to private doctors and clinics wherever I am

"will get immediate treatment"


Sure, if the NHS agrees. Hell, the NICE Board may allow my parents to save the vision in ONE eye if they develop macular degeneration.

"Not like your country, get treatment is thay have the money/right insurance otherwise screw them they can die."

Yeah, sure. Americans are flocking to the UK for treatment. Shite, the Canadians do not even go to the UK. They come here.

"I'm pretty sure the bible is on my side on this one and not yours."


Who are YOU to tell ME what to believe?

And, by the way, why should we follow the UK, where I once lived? After all, your Treasury is empty, you have lost your credit rating, you are printing money, and monetizing your own debt.

Go, Daniel Hannan, Go!

To Useful Idiots
"What we do know. Rank and file Liberals are less informed than their conservative counterparts on issues."

Completely untrue.

I suspect Im a "Liberal" in your 1-D pantheon of political theories.

So why do I disagree with you that "Liberals" are less informed?

Well firstly I know that politics is a lot more complex and in depth than labelling people "conservative" or "liberal".

Secondly I dont believe in creationism.

Thirdly I think that owning a gun that can kill as a "right" is total idiocy and not very christian. Unless the commandment "though shalt not kill" has some sort of corrollary "unless its with a gun".

Fourthly I dont need to believe in imaginary being that have no evidence like, erm, Santa the Loch Ness Monster, mohammed or god.


Lets get serious
IDOPAS lets get serious about this subject and stop flaming each other. I will repeat my challenge to you .
Google " Government Rationing Body" . Then come back and make your best case. Why is rationing medical care is inherently
good for me?

Lies in the media once again
Great Job for pointing this out Terry! Once again it shows how the main stream media is covering up the truth and enabling Obama to get what he wants. Why does the media continue to lie for him to make his poorly thought out and ill-advised plan sound like a good one?!? It will only go the way of all other countries bad national health care plans...with poor care, long waits, and unhealthy people.

But how large are they
The complete list of "countries where single-payer works well or would work well":
(*) Vatican City
(*) Monaco
(*) San Marino
(*) Liechtenstein
(*) Andorra
(*) Maldives

(pattern rather obvious)

Canada stats on healthcare, see
Heritage Foundation--Google *healthcare heritage foundation canada.* You can also see the Cato Institute's *Health Care in England: Not Your Cup of Tea* available online.

I have lived in England, have dealt with National Health, and still have many friends and cousins there. They come to the US for major med. procedures, like operations. They prefer FL to NJ, so they get in vacations at the same time.

I myself was twice treated for strept throat in a surgery, the first time with penicillin which I had said I was allergic to, and both the first and second times where diagnosis was made without a culture. The second time I insisted on a culture, because a gram-negative strept requires different treatment, and I was treated like the uppity colonist (I guess I am).

Someone writing from CA and claiming to be the voice of UK must be both displaced or dysfunctional.

Guess Who Will Not Be Involved...

In this socialistic experiment?


The higher ups in all three branches of government.

They will not be subject to waiting periods, rationing, denial of treatment or substandard care.

You uhc/single-payer nuts will never get their Rolls Royce medical care with all of its amnenities. Oh, and they get paid while they are on leave.

Matthew
Good morning, and thank you for being a rational intelligent poster, I wish some of the others were like you!

I did google it, I already knew what it would say. Yes of course there are accusations in SOME rare cases of rationing. And yes there are undoutedly some screw ups.

But no system is 100%, and I never claimed it was. Our system is excellent, but not perfect.

You are clearly a clever guy, you know I can play that game as well, it goes nowhere.

For example, just type in "american healthcare failures" to google. See.

What we do know.

Rank and file Liberals are less informed than their conservative counterparts on issues.

They accept filtered news sources without question, without any critical thinking,they just accept what they are told.

For example, they are told that we already pay for the uninsured healthcare because they end up going into emergency rooms for treatment. This results in higher healthcare cost for everyone.

This is true. However what many Liberals don't know is people already on medicaid do the very same thing with no penalty. Instead of calling their doctor, making an appointment and then actually showing up at the date and time of the appointment, they go straight to the E.R. and run up a $5,000 to be treated for something that could have been handled at their doctors office for $50.00

Rowdy--thats not a real name surely lol!
"IDOPAS--SPEAK GERMAN AND SHUT UP
Dear Idopas,"

Did you know that most of you are German or of German descent? I thought not or you wouldnt have posted that sentence making you look stupid.

"So, you think Americans are 'stupid"?"

No, just people like you. A person who can say "speak german AND shut up". Pray tell us all how you can speak AND shut up. Moron.

"Your country is being overrun by Islamo-Fascists."

Is it? Can I have some statistics to back that up please? We have just voted for the right wing, not the left. Its YOU who have a muslim for president. Lordy this is so easy.

"Your Health Care is Garbage and you know it, even if you tout it as being good."

Facts please. Saying something doesnt make it true. I live here, and have used it many times and it is excellent.

"You would be speaking German if it were not for they "stupid" Americans."

Again a comment any decent american would be ashamed off. You cowardly kept out of the war until the end. It was us who stood up to facism.

In fact its us, countries like Australia and India who can hold our heads up.

You on the other hand should be ashamed. Yes you came in and made the difference (England is smaller than Maryland did you know that and we still held the Germans, much bigger country, at bay).

Government Rationing Body
Good morning IDOPAS; Would you please Google Government
Rationing Body and then come back here and put a sunny face on it. Please explain to me a 66 yr old why this good for me.

Idiopas
Read what I said, word for word, before trying to reply. I said that the Nazi experiement was to make everyone equal (only Aryans were permitted), which is the only way to make universal care a fair and equal program. I know they were fully aware of the differences in genetics, which is why they wanted to get rid of them.

Superficial anatomy is somewhat similar (heart in middle of chest, arteries, veins, etc), but our body chemistry is not the same. People have allergies to different medications (or things like bees, asprin, peanuts, shellfish, etc), people react differently to different chemicals, our brains don't operate in the same manner. Some people get Alzheimers, some don't. Some people have ALS, others don't. Some people get cancer, others don't. Some of it is based on lifestyle, others are based on genetic luck of the draw. One size fits all does not work because we are not equal.

Furthermore, it isn't an issue of quality. The numbers of new doctors are hard coded. If there are only 40 spaces allowed by government in a medical school, you could have 80 qualified people applying, 1,000 qualified, or, on the inverse, you could also only get 20 qualified with the other 20 getting filled by people you don't want anywhere near you with a scalpel. It's just a politically decided number to keep wages high. Drawing a line in the sand doesn't mean you're guaranteed good medical practicioners and it doesn't mean that's the exact number of qualified people. It isn't as simple as saying "Only X potential doctors are born each year." That is what socialized medicine is trying to tell you.

IDOPAS--SPEAK GERMAN AND SHUT UP
Dear Idopas,

So, you think Americans are 'stupid"?

Your country is being overrun by Islamo-Fascists.

Your Health Care is Garbage and you know it, even if you tout it as being good.

You would be speaking German if it were not for they "stupid" Americans.

If you go "out of your own small town", you would be in another country.

SHUT UP, MIND YOUR OWN SOCIALIST COUNTRY'S LACK OF BUSINESS AND FIND A PLACE TO READ A REAL BOOK.

ROWDY BOOTS

BETWyan
"Re: ldopas the Idiot
Idopas - you don't know what you're talking about, Euro-weenie."

Two childish insults + my screen name spelt two different ways in a couple of lines.

I already know Im debating with a teenager with no experience or a simpleton. Im not wasting my time.

At least Justin is putting cogent points.

BETWyan, shut the computer down and go and learn some things, heck read a book or two. Or are books, as Chris Rock joked, like kryptonite to people like you?

Justin
"Why would I want competition? Simple, because a monopoly is ALWAYS inefficient, expensive and of low quality."
Is contradicted by you saying this....
"Also, GPs get paid that much because the supply is limited by law (yes, UK laws limit the amount of new doctors). Limit supply, the cost increases, basic economics."

Supply is limited because of the quality issue. I'd rather have access to a qualified doctor, than go in your system where every other one is a quack.

"Humans are not equal, that's an undenyable fact of life. Because of that, a one size fits all solution never works."

Anatomy is the same, unless you know something everyone elses doesnt.

"we don't all have the same amount of days off from sickness, our genetics are different so we don't have the same risk of disease and we live different lifestyles. The only way you could equalize health care is if you engage in Nazi-style eugenics and we all live like ants, perfectly identical in every way."

You are completely wrong (surprise surprise). Nazis were very much into "genetics are different" etc, hence why millions of Jews and others were killed. What you said is the Nazi philosophy.

Re: ldopas the Idiot
Idopas - you don't know what you're talking about, Euro-weenie.

100% of the American people (and 100% of 20 million, law-breaking, identity stealing illegal aliens) receive healthcare in our country.

The issue is HEALTH INSURANCE. Some 85% of Americans have health insurance. Why should we change the most successful system in the world to insure the remaining 15% - who if you study the demographics, are people who -

a) Don't want health insurance.
b) Are illegal aliens.
c) Are too stupid to know they already qualify for numerious, repeat NUMEROUS, existing programs for the poor (and stupid).

This Chairman Mao-Bama push is about POWER and CONTROL of CENTRALIZED POLITICAL ELITES over the lives of free American men and women. Mao-Bama is pure, European-weenie in his philosophy.

Reply to the Ignorance pt 3
Ed Wallis: "America is a great place. It allows for the free movement of individuals. If he prefers, he has the choice"

Only if you have some money. If you dont and cant afford insurance, you die. That is NO choice.

St. Denis In Obama's Red America: "Enough with this fairness shite! Life is not fair. We are not guaranteed fairness. We are not even guaranteed happiness. We ARE guaranteed the right to pursue happiness."

Wow, what an un christian attitude. Well we decided here that as a top 5 capitalist economy, we were going to ensure that anyone ill here, and that includes you if you come here, will get immediate treatment. Not like your country, get treatment is thay have the money/right insurance otherwise screw them they can die. Im pretty sure the bible is on my side on this one and not yours.

JAG CA "England's doctors are nothing but government technocrats dispensing what passes for health care under a soviet style que up and wait system."

You take the prize for the most ill educated and stupid comment of all. They earn northwards of $200k per annum and more, and that is the basic doctor. Specialists earn way more. Hardly "soviet", not that you have a clue about that.

In my town I belong to a surgery with a number of excellent doctors, I make an appointment and go straight in. Sometimes I have to wait if there is an emergency, I have no problem with that. It appears selfish americans do...thats why Im glad I live here, not over there.

To most of you I'll say, though I already know Im wasting my time. Isnt it time you did some travelling, perhaps learned some things outside the boundaries of your home towns and boradened your minds before posting ignorance and prejudice?




ldopas
Why would I want competition? Simple, because a monopoly is ALWAYS inefficient, expensive and of low quality. It doesn't change because of what service is being offered. I want competition because I want a good product for a reasonable price, something that cannot be offered when there is only one player. When there is only one player, the entire supply-demand equation goes out the window. A single player can just hose the people. If it is a private solution (single payer), the prices go through the roof. If it is a public solution (socialized care), it gets rationed. The only people that actually like these kinds are care are the ones that NEVER have to use it.

Also, we may all get sick, but not all sickness is equal. Not all of us get sick with the same things, we don't all have the same amount of days off from sickness, our genetics are different so we don't have the same risk of disease and we live different lifestyles. The only way you could equalize health care is if you engage in Nazi-style eugenics and we all live like ants, perfectly identical in every way.

Humans are not equal, that's an undenyable fact of life. Because of that, a one size fits all solution never works.

Also, GPs get paid that much because the supply is limited by law (yes, UK laws limit the amount of new doctors). Limit supply, the cost increases, basic economics. We have the same problem in the US and it's driven by a union called the American Medical Association.

Then again, you are a UK citizen, the same nation that created the biggest hack of the 20th Century, John Maynard Keynes.

Congress Exempt

Now we find out Congress has voted to exempt itself from the Healthcare reforms they are working on.

This is part of the continuing liberal program where we have a two class society.

Liberal elites, and those who service them.

This is change we can believe in.

Reply to the Ignorance pt 2
"Socialized medicine is about FORCING you. Just as the IRS is about FORCING you to pay taxes."

This is a silly comparison. Tax may not be distributed evenly. But we ALL get ill.

Tim: "Im just wondering in what capacity, quality and quantity, does our health care system subsidize other health care systems, including single-payer, around the world...if at all?"

Its always about you thinking you pay for everyone elses. Newflash, you dont. Our NHS is funded by billions in National Insurance we pay. AND you may not know this, but 90%+ from all classes are happy with the concept of the NHS.

BETWyan: "Who are these people? Liberals. State-dependent SHEEPLE. Just like Euro-weenies"

What a stupid statement. Its nothing to do with state dependence. We decided to all pay something so ALL can have healthcare. Isnt that a christian thing to do? You system doesnt give a damn about the vulnerable or people down on their luck. Very anti-christian.

Justin: "Both legally require 100% participation and both disallow competition."

Yes they do. And why the hell WOULD you want competition. This is about saving peoples lives. I dont want a russian roulette system like yours, I want universally high standards like we have here.

renny: Many *single payer* gov't programs deny private ins."

Lets hear your source renny. I can but private insurance to BUPA, PPP or any of the other private schemes here if I want. So what you say is wrong.

EEXTREMIST? THAT'S ME!!: "Wait until the physicians see what happens to their pay checks under the single payer (socialized medicine) system they will be looking for a place to go."

A simple Doctor (GP) here earns on average over $180,000 per annum BASIC. On top of that there are extra bonuses for successes in curing patients (like for example persuading them to quit smoking) etc and a massively generous pension scheme. That is hardly low pay now is it.




Soviet and Canadian health care
Horror stories from Soviet health care:
1. Government run health care was no longer a prestigious career for doctors. So the male doctors were replaced by a majority of female doctors. Before the feminists get into an uproar, in the Soviet Union women were distinctly second class and the worst jobs (like old women sweeping streets with twig brooms, saw it myself while there in the '70s) were reserved for women.
2. One of the Soviet ice skaters fell on the ice and suffered a very serious head wound. Our media reported that he did not go to a Soviet hospital which would mean death from poor care and infection. His friends went to the black market to buy medical supplies (being sold by the health workers to make extra money) and cared for him themselves.

Canadian health care:
Go to youtube and google Canadians talking about coming here for cancer treatment, brain tumors, etc. Suzanne Somers, who is married to a Canadian, told Mark Levin that the best doctors are becoming vets because they can make money there. Your pet can get the latest in medical care. People can't.

The failing of socialism and communism is that they think they redesign human character. They can't. When the government keeps people from making money in one career, they switch to something else that is not yet squeezed out. The peasants who were forced into collectived agriculture under Stalin (who let millions of them die of starvation) were not growing enough food to feed the nation. So, they were allowed to have private plots. They grew more food on their private plots then all of the collectivized farms. Humans want to own the product of their own labor. Humans want to find dignity in their own choices. When it doesn't belong to them, they don't care about it. No one washes a rental car. Think about it.

Some Replies To The Igonrance Pt 1
Ah the usual garbage written in ignorance about our health system in the UK I see. Also ignorant garbage written about the French system, but I'll stick with my country (England) system.

Firstly, I do understand that in the mai the statistics show us that conservative americans rarely travel and enjoy making ill researched views of other countries.

EXTREMIST? THAT'S ME!!: "The problem is doctors fled England for the U.S. when theirs kicked indoctors"

Did they? Let us have the statistics to back that up. Because most doctors here are paid very well and have a lot of power in the system.

renny: "In Grt Britain, where I have been to a *surgery* you simply walk in and sit. If the dr. is free, you might be seen immediately. If it is flu season or there are other emergencies, you can sit all day."

Yes good isn't it. You can get cured without habing to prove you are insured, or get worse because you can't affor insurance...erm like your country. Of course you've got to wait if there are a lot of people ill...what point are you trying to make? The same applies to your system!

"Socialized medicine is about FORCING you. Just as the IRS is about FORCING you to pay taxes."

This is a silly comparison. Tax may not be distributed evenly. But we ALL get ill.

Single payer option might lead to
the foreign option. Several articles recently have touted Mexico and India as places that do surgeries like heart transplant, knee and hip replacement, etc for a fraction of the cost of the same in the US.

Long lines for government rationed health care might lead to an explosion of medical safaris to lands that that have well educated medical professionals that are looking to make anything like the pay of US medicos.

Competition seems to have a way of rearing its not so ugly head even when our fearless leader thinks share the wealth and share the pain is the only way to go.

Foxy, of the millions as quoted
as uninsured are huge numbers of people temporarily between jobs (esp. in a recession ec. that King Elect O is working overtime to prolong and embed),

young people just starting careers who feel healthy and do not see a reason to carry heavy ins. payments, esp. the young unmarried (under 30).

And then we have between 7-30,000,000 illegals who are busy bankrupting hospitals in TX, NM and AR, and that will not improve with a change in healthcare but a change in immigration and border control.

National *healthcare* under a Kennedy plan FORCES young professionals into the system so they pay for elder care where the high expenses really occur.

Two places are the focus of high med. bills--beginning life in neo-natal med. if an infant needs extensive care at or near birth and for the nearly or actually dying. Most enormous med. bills are run up in the last six months of life.

An ins. system that decided to address those two polar opposites of life would do more to help ameliorate costs than anything the gov't concocts.

Kennedy is already notorious for the 1966 and 1986 immigration bills that have led directly to our illegals problem. He was also the architect of No Child Left Behind, which Bush adopted and became hated for.

Kennedy leg. is always poison for Am. His brothers must be dizzy with rolling over in their graves.

Call 202 224 ( or 225) 3121 and protest to your Sens.

Bork Sotomayor.

Oppose *hate crimes* leg. that may be voted today.

foxyloxy
Wait until the physicians see what happens to their pay checks under the single payer (socialized medicine) system they will be looking for a place to go. The problem is doctors fled England for the U.S. when theirs kicked indoctors here have nowhere to go. They tout 47 million uninsured, how many ileagles?, how many don't want insurance?, how many on medicade?. It is just a power game to gain more control over our lives.

Playing make believe
The press and Obama seem to be in a game of make believe, also needed by every control economy in history. The wheat crops were so good in communist Russia that according to one official when harvested the piles almost reached God in heaven. To which the listener replied, this is Russia, there is no God, and the speaker said there is no wheat either.

Tim, we inadvertently subsidize Canada
and Grt. Britain by providing the place patients choose when their own systems can't address them.

There are thousands of stories of Canadians crossing the border because it takes up to six months in some provinces to see a specialist. Being diagnosed with breast cancer or colon cancer (fast moving diseases) does not put you at the top of the list.

Many *single payer* gov't programs deny private ins. altogether. Canada has just begun to allow a priv. ins. industry to grow again due to court cases and lawsuits.

In Eng. in a system developed after WW II when few lived to great old age, many services are capped by age. Dialysis is rare after 67, no dermatologists after 80 (so if you have eczema until you are 100, you're out of ins.), and heart surgery stops in the 70s.

In Grt Britain, where I have been to a *surgery* (reg. dr. appointment), you simply walk in and sit. If the dr. is free, you might be seen immediately. If it is flu season or there are other emergencies, you can sit all day.

As Europe has a tradition of days' off during the weeks, if your town closes down on Wed., so does the dr. Unlike Am., where there is single payer, hospitals also do not always have the charity laws we have in the US, where anyone who goes to ER is treated.

Socialized medicine is about FORCING you. Just as the IRS is about FORCING you to pay taxes.

It is very peculiar that the same people who blather about *choice* ceaselessly for abortion are interested in FORCING no choice in medicine on the entire 300,000,000 in the US.

Call 202 344 (255) 3121 and tell the Sen. NO.

Bork Sotomayor.

Call to stop *hate leg* today.

Fix the Health Care System First

I can understand the democrats feeling the need to do this, but I can't see how there is going to be a simple solution to this. A good first step would be to change the way medicine is practiced in general in this country. That alone would bring down the cost. It is more of a business to many who are in the medical profession. Even when there are better ways discovered to treat an illness, the AMA and drug companies, along with the FDA, immediately do everything they can to shut it down, because it would take away their income. For me these days, it is not just about being able to pay for it, it is finding the kind of doctor I would like to have.

Work?
I find it interesting that Obama thinks some single-payer health systems "work".

Question 1: Why did he not name them?

Question 2: What is his definition of "work".

No, really?
The so-called news media is teaming up with Der Fuhrer Obama to spread lies about who and what he is? Say, didn't Obama's idol Adolf Hitler do something similar? Huh, who'da thunk that?

We the sheeple...
The sheeple voted for the socialist party. Now it's time for all of us to suffer. The breathtaking hypocrisy about this is that none of the Washington elites will suffer any changes in the way they get health care.

In 2010, we'll find out just how stupid we the sheeple really are.

Just wondering....
Im just wondering in what capacity, quality and quantity, does our health care system subsidize other health care systems, including single-payer, around the world...if at all?

How do you define "Single"
With Obama you have to be careful of definitions, moreso than Clinton. The single payer is YOU! http://theblacksphere.net/site/obamacare-america-gets-new- proctologist/

We are getting screwed! Let's have a laugh at least!

More Govt. = Less Liberty
Who are these people who actually think govt. run, single payer system is desireable? THey need to answer why do people from Canada and England, among other nations, come here for care?

There are two issues here: healthcare and insurance. On principle, I'm against anything that is "universal", which is another way of saying MANDATORY.

Who are these people? Liberals. State-dependent SHEEPLE. Just like Euro-weenies.

foxyloxy
Don't argue on the basis of semantics. There is nothing fundamentally different between socialized medicine and a single payer system. Both legally require 100% participation and both disallow competition. Congress simply delegating the monopoly on health care payments to a "private" entity doesn't make it a whole different creature.

All monopolies are destined to fail by collapsing in on their own weight. Single payer health care (and socialized health care) is a monopoly. Put 2 and 2 together.

Barry al Hussein - Central Planner
The Muslim in Chief is obviously an uber Central Planner.

He is strangling our nation through endless laws, rules and regulation. Especially economically.

SINGLE PAYER
I am sick and tired of seeing the same old falsehood over and over. SINGLE PAYER and SOCIALIZED MEDICINE are NOT, NOT, and NOT the same thing. Get the proper information on http://www.pnhp.org.

As a media person, Terry Jeffrey, you should know better. You need to do better research before putting this lie into print. You are just making it easier for all the ignorant people in this country to persist in their dreamlike state in which they imagine things to be a certain way when in reality things are just the opposite.

Bankruptcy
Tort reform may help, but the biggest problem is the doctors themselves: when their patients complain that the high-dollar, highly-advertised drugs they prescribe are causing terrible pain and dysfunction, the doctors are telling their patients:

"No, that doesn't happen with this medication."

When patients look up the information and find that their results are well established in any PDR, or on the label they get from the pharmacy, the doctor threatens them with loss of service! (Seems there must be some kind of payoff somewhere...)

Does anyone think that this kind of bullying will decrease, when you put the weight of the federal government behind them? Not taking your meds could be elevated to the level of a crime!

Communism vs. fascism
I've called Obama a communist from the beginning. That is what he is. Some now say, "No, this is highly regulated private industry. Government controlled (as opposed to government owned) business is fascism, not communism."

Nice try, but wrong.

What is the different between communism and fascism?

Fascists TELL you what they are going to do. Communists lie, lie, lie.

Obama lies through his teeth, and would take over every single industry, if he thought he would get away with it.

Given that ABC has come the Obama Broadcasting Company, I'm sure he's feeling pretty good about that now.

Corruption
We already have enough corruption in the system (blurred, nonexistent lines between researchers and the people who compensate them) without Obumbler trying to grab the reigns.

We already have enough Socialism in the system. Call it what you want: Big Business Socialism or Socialism, but either way, it's about to fall apart - sooner, with the Idiot in Chief's inept ministrations.

No, O'Bumbler: you can't fix this. You can't fix Americorps, except to make it more corrupt. You can't fix a broken faucet. Whatcha gonna do in the Big Time? Ha!

O'Bumbler!

LET HIM MOVE THERE
.
Obama: "There Are Countries Where a Single-Payer System Works Pretty Well"

America is a great place.

It allows for the free movement of individuals.

If he prefers, he has the choice.

Get the f*ck out of here, Barry.

I'LL EVEN WAVE MY HANKY WHEN HE GOES.

Single Payer System?
If Obama thinks that single payer is a good idea, perhaps he could make our existing single payer systems work. Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupting the country now. Could he fix them first?

$62,500 Per Individual
Yesterday, the CBO estimated that the current Democratic Senate health care bill would increase the defict by $1 trillion over 10 years while leaving 30 million uninsured, forcing the White House to distance itself from the legislation. While liberals have tried to emphasize that the CBO provided only a partial analysis of the draft legislation from Ted Kennedy's Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, a more comprehensive analysis of the legislation will only serve to drive the bill's ultimate cost higher. For instance, because it was only working with a draft of the bill that had holes in it, the CBO did not estimate the costs associated with increasing Medicaid elgibility to 150 percent of the poverty level, or the full cost of providing subsidies to individuals with incomes at up to 500 percent of the poverty level to purchase insurance through state-run exchanges. Once this is taken into account, liberals are right that the final CBO estimate will reflect more people being insured, but the cost of the legislation will go up as well.


Health Systems Innovations Network, a consulting group, went ahead and estimated the full cost of a bill that included the subsidies and Medicaid expansion, and reduced the number of uninsured by 99 percent. With these assumptions, they estimated the cost at a staggering $4 trillion over 10 years, resulting in the shift of 79 million Americans to government-run health care. The report does not include possible tax increases or spending offsets, but notes that, "this would be a challenging proposal to finance with budget neutrality."

The price tag for each individual covered is $62,500 per year.

http://spectator.org/blog/2009/06/16/report-kennedy-bill-wo uld-actu


Single payer
I've lived under single payer healthcare. It doesn't work and it's a system we can't afford.The architect of the Canadian system recently called their system a failure. Huge waiting lists for critical care. Want the government deciding who gets care from a crappy doctor and who doesn't?
Pass Tort reform and cap lawsuits and the rates will drop. Our med schools were Hillaried in 1993 and that needs to be remedied as well.
Obama is a disaster of a President who is out to ruin our way of life in the name of "hope and change." Baby boomers, the lamest generation. Too bad I'm one with no power.

Healthcare reform
I've lived under single payer healthcare. It doesn't work and it's a system we can't afford.The architect of the Canadian system recently called their system a failure. Huge waiting lists for critical care. Want the government deciding who gets care from a crappy doctor and who doesn't?
Pass Tort reform and cap lawsuits and the rates will drop. Our med schools were Hillaried in 1993 and that needs to be remedied as well.
Obama is a disaster of a President who is out to ruin our way of life in the name of "hope and change." Baby boomers, the lamest generation. Too bad I'm one with no power.

Will "Pay-Go" Really Pay?
With his first two federal budgets projecting the largest deficits in U.S. history, each above a trillion dollars, Mr. Obama wants to be seen speaking the gospel of fiscal discipline and distancing himself from the free-spending ways of Congress, of which he was a member for four years.

With his first two federal budgets projecting the largest deficits in U.S. history, each above a trillion dollars, Mr. Obama wants to be seen speaking the gospel of fiscal discipline and distancing himself from the free-spending ways of Congress, of which he was a member for four years.

“Paying for what you spend is basic common sense. Perhaps that's why, here in Washington, it's been so elusive,” he needled an audience in the East Room this afternoon that included some House members.

But briefing reporters, White House Budget Director Peter Orszag conceded some of PAYGO’s limitations. It doesn’t cover discretionary spending.

“PAYGO only applies to the mandatory side of the budget and to revenue,” said Orszag. That means entitlement programs such as Medicare and revenue programs like taxes. It’ll cover the compulsory health care plan the president wants Congress to pass – but over five or 10 years. In a single year, the plan may exceed PAYGO limits.

It will not covered the "public option" of Obama Care.

In addition, about 40 percent of the federal budget, programs for education, energy, the military, etc., would not be covered by PAYGO, said Orszag. A different set of Senate and House rules apply to those programs, he said.


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/09/politics/politicalh otsheet/entry5076078.shtml


And, Who Is Blocking It...
Howie Klein has a rundown of all the money that the people who are blocking real reform in health care have received from the health care industry.

Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $4,026,933)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $2,833,731)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $2,758,468)

"And when you just go right to Big Insurance, the non-presidential candidates who got the biggest legalized bribes were the 7 senators who have been tasked with the job of killing single-payer":

Ben Nelson (DLC-NE- $1,196,799)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $1,184,113)
Joe Lieberman (DLC- CT- $1,036,302)
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $1,035,530)
Chuck Schumer (D-NY- $981,400)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $929,207)
Chuck Grassley (R-IA- $884,724)

Plus, the Senator from MBNA, Chris Dodd, who is against a single-payer system and taxing health care benefits.

Obama does not have the votes in the Senate and he will be unable to achieve a single-payer system with only House Liberals.

Thank God.


The Real Agenda...
Last Thursday at a town hall meeting in Rio Rancho New Mexico President Barack Obama was asked why, when “so many people go bankrupt using their credit cards to pay for healthcare. Why have they taken single-payer off the plate (audience applause), and why is Senator Baucus on the Finance Committee discussing health care when he has received so much money from the pharmaceutical companies? Isn’t it a conflict of interest?” (more audience applause)

“Healthcare is one-sixth of our economy, so it is a complicated and difficult task. Congress is going to have to work hard, and everybody is going to have to come at this with a practical perspective as opposed to being ideologically pure in getting it done… Why not do a single-payer system? … A single-payer system is like, Medicare is sort of a single-payer system, but it’s only for people over 65, and the way it works is, uh, the idea is you don’t have insurance companies as middle men. " - Barack Obama

Question: More than 80 House Democrats are supporting a single payer, Canadian-style, Medicare for all healthcare system. It's HR 676. Why don't you support it?

Pelosi: "I've always supported single payer."

Health insurance companies will be eliminated, people will not have a choice, bureacrats will run the system, rationing will be necessary to pay the tab, and our healthcare will be ruined.


obama/single payer system
PROVE IT !!!!!!!

Keep The Amtrak

Nearly 40 years and $30bn later, we are still paying for Amtrak. I am paying for it even though I was still riding a bike with training wheels when it passed and have only rode on Amtrak a few times since I much prefer to fly.

Now, we get another nationalized Amtrak...

One running too fast so that Americans cannot get a load of the details or the real price tag.

Like I am with Amtrak, my children and future grandchildren will be paying for this catastrophe while receiving substandard medical care.

Make Work Gov. Jobs
Government Healthcare will be run like the Detroit school system.

60% failure rate and the cost will be more per student then sending your child to the University of Michigan.

Bullies know it all thugs.

Can’t wait to read the abuse stories coming to a news outlet near you.

Can’t wait for the “we need more funding to invest in the children B.S.”

Can’t wait for the drugs to come up missing stories.

It’s going to be the same old tired out corruption stories.

Government Mafia run health care.

Exactly, h20skier!

I want someone in favor of the public insurance option or single payer to name ONE public program that has ever cost less than originally projected.

I want them to tell me why I should not be able to get special care, if I am willing to pay for health insurance AND pay taxes for this crap that Obama is selling.

Enough with this fairness shite! Life is not fair. We are not guaranteed fairness. We are not even guaranteed happiness. We ARE guaranteed the right to pursue happiness.

Denis
You are absolutely correct. Once the government starts offering lower premiums everyone will switch for the lower cost. It doesn't matter to the government whether or not they lose billions or trillions of dollars. Look at all of their other programs for an example of how the health care program will work.

CRAZY MAKING
A Public Health Care Insurance Option will drive private health insurers to the wall. If we believe this, then we believe that a government run option will provide better price/performance than existing HMOs. Bleeding heart liberals then ask ‘why should the public be denied this better service and or lower cost?” They simply do not understand the fundamental free market right of corporations to make money at the expense of individuals. CORPORATIONS MUST GET OUR SHARE OF ANY NEW GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. This is an important concept that liberals will never understand.
Fortunately Republicans and Moderate Republicans fully understand this. They recognize that the health of private sector corporations is more important than the health of ordinary people. One saw this with the prescription benefit for seniors. This moderate coalition quite sensibly ensured that Medicare could not negotiate lower prices for the drugs the Government was going to pay for. In a free market society Corporations must get as much benefit as possible from Government programs. Only hate mongering socialists call this Corporate Welfare. It’s really more like a bail out.

FRANCE
JAG CA, the French system also failed hemophiliacs and countless others whose lives depended on multiple blood transfusions. The nation's blood supply became contaminated with the AIDS virus. Eventually this became known to a handful of French bureaucrats. I guess their system was too big to fail, because the knowledge was concealed for years, until the number of scandalous deaths was too big to hide.

Liar
'The public option is not your enemy,' Mr. Obama said.

Yes, it is. It will destroy the health insurance system. It will lower the care that we, as insurance holders, pay for so that we are equal with the "public option", which we are also paying.

Should we be allowed to get better care, if we pay for it TWICE?


'It is your friend, I believe.'

No, it is not my friend and I believe that he is a liar.


"Saying it would 'keep insurance companies honest.."

How about he starts by making GOVERNMENT HONEST?

"the president dismissed as 'illegitimate' the claims of critics that a public insurance option amounts to 'Trojan horse for a single-payer system' run by the government."

Bull shite, Barack.

Single payer works pretty well????
Which countries is our messiah talking about. Would any of these be western European where health care is rationed.

France might be one but didn't that country's health care system completely fail the elderly when a heat wave killed thousands for simple lack of air conditioning in rest homes and hospitals. That could save some real money here in CA simply cut off A/C and let save nature take over!

Maybe he meant Canada or England but don't both of these countries citizens look to the US if they want care other than long lined government you'll get it when its available care.

England's doctors are nothing but government technocrats dispensing what passes for health care under a soviet style que up and wait system.

Three things are needed to help contain US costs tort reform, let insurance compete nationally and let docs advertise and post their fees for service.