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Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
CIA Waterboarding Produced Intel That Stopped Attack on Los Angeles
by Terry Jeffrey
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"Soon, you will know."

That is the ominous statement an uncooperative Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, told his Central Intelligence Agency interrogators when they initially asked him, after he had been captured, about additional planned al-Qaida attacks on the United States.

In March 2003, KSM became the third and final terrorist ever waterboarded by the CIA. The other two were Abu Zubaydah and Rahim Al-Nashiri.

So few were waterboarded because the CIA was so strict in the criteria for deciding when the technique could be used.

As CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo explained in a 2004 letter to then-Acting Assistant Attorney General Daniel Levin of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, the CIA would only resort to waterboarding a top al-Qaida leader when the agency had "credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent," "substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack" and "(o)ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit the information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack."

Rizzo's letter, as quoted here, was cited in a May 30, 2005, memo to Rizzo from then-Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury, also of the Office of Legal Counsel.

On Tuesday, the CIA confirmed to me that it stands by assertions credited to the agency in this 2005 memo that subjecting KSM to "enhanced techniques" of interrogation -- including waterboarding -- caused him to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The previously classified memo was released by President Obama last week.

Before they were waterboarded, both KSM and Abu Zubaydah did not believe Americans had the will to stop al-Qaida, the 2005 Justice Department memo says, citing information from the CIA.

"Both KSM and Zubaydah had 'expressed their belief that the general U.S. population was 'weak,' lacked resilience and would be unable to 'do what was necessary' to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals,'" said the memo. "Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon, you will know.'"

After he was waterboarded, KSM provided the CIA with information that allowed the U.S. government to close down a terror cell already "tasked" with flying a jet into a building in Los Angeles.

"You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM -- once enhanced techniques were employed -- led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles," says the memo, referring to information CIA provided to Justice.

"You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave,'" said the memo.

"More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had (redaction) large sum of money to an al-Qaida associate (redaction) ... . Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured," said the memo. "Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA (to) Hambali's brother, al-Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM."

A CIA spokesman confirmed to me on Tuesday, as I first reported on CNSNews.com, that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.

While waterboarding was exceedingly rare in CIA interrogations of al-Qaida terrorists, it was routinely used on certain members of our own armed forces who went through "Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape" (SERE) training. According to another previously classified memo that Obama released last week, some branches of the U.S. military stopped using waterboarding in training certain troops not because waterboarding had harmful long-term effects, but because it was so universally effective in extracting information.

"With respect to the waterboard, you have also orally informed us that the Navy continues to use it in training," said a 2002 Office of Legal Counsel memo to the CIA's Rizzo. "You have informed us that other services ceased use of the waterboard because it was so successful as an interrogation technique but not because of any concerns over harm, physical or mental, caused by it. It was also reported to be almost 100 percent effective in producing cooperation among trainees."

According to the CIA, it produced cooperation in the mastermind of 9-11 and thus yielded information used to stop a 9-11 type attack on the West Coast.

President Obama says he has prohibited the interrogation techniques described in the Justice Department memos he released. Next time the CIA catches a KSM, they must be kinder and gentler with him.

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Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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prove it
prove that other means would not have worked and that torture was the only way to get this information.


Outrageous
Waterboarding to save L.A?! That is a crime!

Now I'm pissed. L.A? We should have let the Islamists take that city out. God, that would have been beautiful and righteous. All those quueer mother effers, perverts and registered democrats. What a missed opportunity.

We can only hope that the dismantling of our security can only hasten the day we'll see more liberals on fire jumping out of skyscrappers in some shiiithole liberal town like L.A.

AIDs takes too long. I'd like to see liberals die off much quicker.

Damn you Cheney. You should have let them have L.A.

christianlib
first christian and liberal doesn't work together so stop lying. He just said that other techniques weren't working moron. I guess if Obama just would have been left to talk to them for about 5 minutes they would have just stopped terrorism all over the world and given him there instant allegiance. I have never met a liberal who wasn't always right. So why would you expected to be any different. And you know federal money for acorn will be running out soon and then you will be out of a job.

The End
justifies the means? So any form of human rights violations are acceptable for USA to perform in order to "protect" the nation?

GOP and religious right wingers turned USA from defender of human rights to a violator of them, a nation who tortures, who defends and makes excuses for human rights violations.

Hope you are proud. And what is the difference between a torturing American and torturing jihadist killer again?



r729
WRONG, Christian and torture doesn't work together.

JD's Handsome Son
You sound like your one breakdown away from strapping a bomb around your waist and detonating yourself on Hollywood Blvd. Don't worry...your fellow conservatives will come to your defense and they will probably build a statue of you at Fox Headquarters....

Geez, can't anyone recognize sarcasm?
What you, Christian Lib, Leo, and Matthew fail to realize is that JD'S Handsome Son is telling you how stupid you are.

It's all very well to say you're perfect and would NEVER harm a living soul. But self-defense IS allowed on a personal and national level. If Al Gore had been president at the time of 9-11, he would either have done pretty much the same as President Bush, or would have done what you think we should have done--not use any information gathering method that could possibly be construed as torture. Had KSM not been water-boarded, do you seriously think we would have been able to stop the Second Wave attack?

And how many other attacks would we have suffered as a result of treating those who hate us with an (un)holy passion with kid gloves?

The likelihood of serious new attacks under this administration is already high and going higher, because all our enemies see in the media is our apparent weakness. I would not want to live in any major coastal city in the US now, because it's only a matter of time before our enemies destroy one or more of them.

That's really what JD's Handsome Son was getting at.

JD's Handsome Son

While I recognize your sarcasm, I understand where it comes from because, I like you, am tired to arguing with these people that terrorists don't want to drink tea and dialogue with them. No, they will cut off their heads, put their bodies in wood chippers, and kill their whole f*cking families.

So, let's quit all forms of any inconvenient treatment of terrorists, bring them to the US, give them houses, and jobs in our largest, Liberal cities. Next, let Obama rebuild the wall between the FBI & CIA, use only police tactics, and treat all terrorist attacks as criminal matters.

For all patriots, I invite you to move to Louisiana, not New Orleans, per se. Our economy is in good condition, we have a great Governor, low taxes, no new taxes planned, low property taxes, low sales taxes, we have added jobs, and are rebuilding.

For the rest of you, build your bunkers because, since you oppose even the slightest adverse treatment of terrorists, I hope that they blow your cities off the f*cking map.

christianlib

As Admiral Blair said, there may have been other means of getting information, but we do not know if they would have been successful.

So, go for it. Trust them.

JD's Handsome Son
Like JD's Handsome Son, my initial reaction was: "The CIA saved Los Angeles? What could they possibly have been thinking?" Do I really want to see an attack on any US city? Not on your life. Well, maybe San Francisco, if they will not allow the Marine Corps Silent Drill Team to perform there or film a commerical there or whatever it was. However, if, as I believe, the terrorists are going to strike us again, on our soil, I hope they hit a liberal stronghold, rather than a conservative one. Maybe if it is their ox getting gored, the liberals will see things a little differently. Wake up and smell the terror brewing, numb nuts.

The Samson Doctrine

As I am typing, I am listening to Israeli radio online. The current word there is that Iran will have a nuclear weapon within 60 days. Nethanayu is supposed to come to Washington to visit Obama next month, if he leaves without the full support of Washington, Israel will go it alone.

The "Samson Option" is a term used to describe Israel’s deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.

Like Bush, who came in as "The Education President", but got hit with 09.11.01, Obama's strategy here may be massively changed in a short time period.

If you guys think that what has happened in the past will affect what is going on right now one iota, you fail to comprehend the world.

Our economy is hanging on by a thread, with the other's shoes of the credit cards and commerical real estate market ready to drop. We are already involved in two wars and may be drawn into another. I hope that y'all are ready for a new draft because we don't have the troops available to fight everywhere, especially if we have to treat terrorists with kid gloves.

If the Little Satan is obliterated first, Iran will set its sight on us, The Great Satan, because it wants catastrophic destruction so as to "hasten the return of the 12th Imam".

Welcome to the real world, folks!

C'mon, terrorists are thugs who kill us
and torture us in much more sadistic and painful ways than waterboarding.

Notice that in all these years only 3 known terrorists were ever waterboarded. Sure they were waterboarded an awful lot. That is much better than we could expect if captured by them.

The thugs thought they could plan with impunity because they thought the US would never do anything to them.

Gee matthew ObamaBoy !

Was it Un-Christian to use Waterboarding on Our Own Troops ?

Hmmmmmm ObamaBoy ?

Can you picture this?
A commercial cargo jet is hijacked on the tarmac in some Third World cesspool. The crew killed and replace by East Asian fanatics who pack the plane with high explosives and drive it into the Transamerica Tower in San Fran in the middle of a Code Pink conniption fit.

Think THAT would turn Baa Baa, Sean and Susan Saranwrap around? Hah!! Even if THEIR houses were aflame they'd all rally to blame Bush.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Useful Idiots
You can always tell when a column is especially good at revealing liberal foolishness because the 'useful idiots' immediately attack. In this case it was the foolishness of Barack Obama in betraying the trust of the CIA.

Patriots believe we have a right to defend ourselves. The useful idiots believe that because we are an evil nation, any method we use to defend ourselves is evil and must be stopped. And the end, our defenselessness, justifies the means. Waterboarding is an effective method of defending this nation. Therefore, no matter what else it is, it is evil and must be stopped.

Obama shares the useful idiot mentality and is doing incredible damage to our nation's ability to defend itself,both fiscally and militarily.

Thank you Terry Jeffrey for pointing out one way in which Obama's useful idiot mentality has compromised our security.

2 Chronicles 7:14

It's hard to get excited
It's very hard for me to get excited about an attack anywhere in California. To be honest, this country would be better off if an earth quake caused it to slide into the Pacific.

It's hard to get excited
It's very hard for me to get excited about an attack anywhere in California. To be honest, this country would be better off if an earth quake caused it to slide into the Pacific.

Muhammad al-Mahdi

Muhammad al-Mahdi, the 12th Imam was born around 868 A.D. at a time of great persecution of Shiites, and in order to protect him, his father, the 11th Imam, sent him into hiding. He appeared in public briefly at the age of 6 when his father died but then went back into obscurity. Shiites believe he continues to guide Muslims, and they expect his “messianic” return to bring order from chaos and righteousness from unbelief.

“President Ahmadinejad seems to think that the time is ripe for the 12th Imam’s reappearance and that, as president, he should play a role in opening the way for his return,” the journal said. “He is reported to have said in one of his cabinet sessions, ‘We have to turn Iran into a modern and divine country to be the model for all nations, and which will also serve as the basis for the return of the 12th Imam.’”

Like Bernard Lewis of Princeton, the Kairos authors said Ahmadinejad seems to believe “that the hand of God is guiding him to trigger a series of cataclysmic events which could precipitate the return of the 12th Imam. Only time will tell if this is his true conviction; but if he does hold such a view, his possession of nuclear weapons is a particularly scary prospect.”

The date he is looking at is August 22, 2009.

And, Nethananyu knows this, which is why I implored you to read about "The Samson Option" because it is likely to happen a lot sooner than August.

Kathy
One argument that I've heard from the Left, is that we just don't know if other forms of interrogation would have resulted in the same useful info. Let me get this straight-we try those other-nicer-methods-the old clock is ticking-the terrorists successfully attack-we say-OK,next time we'll use those nastier forms of "enhanced interrogation". What, are you Libs 12?

Obama, Can You See The Result Now?


Because of the Administration's statement when it came into office that it would only allow the AFM, an Al Qaida member was picked up in Iraq. The military called the CIA, who came over to talk to the military personnel. Normally, the CIA would take the prisoner, for at least 24 hours, so as interrogate him, go through his cellphone, any documents on his person, etc., but because the CIA has been so frightened, they told the military to...

"KEEP HIM!"

What if that AQ terrorist had intelligence about an upcoming attack in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Europe or the United States?

We'll never know because of our Disaster-In-Chief.

Prosecuting Bush Officials?
If Obama goes forward with prosecutions of former administration officials over Waterboarding, it will be time to organize a conservative protest army and march to the White House.

All ypu torture apologists
You have turned to be exactly like your enemy. You support terror and torture. The terrorists have won, they're turned Americans into them.

Be proud.

And JD:s handsome son was not being sarcastic, he meant every word. His worldview is precisely similar like the taliban's: all who think different than he does deserve to die.

LA residences thank the CIA?
Maybe 3000 or 4000 residences of the city of Los Angels should thank the CIA that they were not murdered in their place of business some clear sunny weekday morning?

gliderdriver
It didn't stop any attack on LA. The CIA even said so. At one time the terrorists had talked about doing something on the West coast and that is as far is it got. After 9/11 , remember, we actually started having real airport security and locked entrance to the pilot cabin.

Hmmmm,

If the terrorists did manage to wipe out L.A., that would go a long way towards helping us solve our illegal immigrant problem...not to mention get rid of 10 million liberal voters.

But then again, ACORN would probably still find a way to have those votes counted.

Jane Mayer who researched this
I have heard nothing to suggest that information obtained from enhanced interrogation techniques has prevented an imminent terrorist attack. And I have heard nothing that makes me think the information obtained from these techniques could not have been obtained through traditional interrogation methods used by military and law enforcement interrogators. On the other hand, I do know that coercive interrogations can lead detainees to provide false information in order to make the interrogation stop.
In other words, according to one of the few US officials with full access to the details, the drastic "ticking time bomb" threat used to justify what many Americans would otherwise consider indefensible tactics had never actually occurred, other than on the TV sets of those watching Fox-TV's terrorism fantasy show 24.
--

Doubt has begun to emerge from within the administration itself, too. In 2006, a scientific advisory group to the US intelligence agencies produced an exhaustive report on interrogation called "Educing Information," which concluded that there was no scientific proof whatsoever that harsh techniques worked. In fact, several of the experts involved in the study described the infliction of physical and psychological cruelty as outmoded, amateurish, and unreliable.

When, not if.
When, not if, there is another attack on US soil, you libs can be happy. We took the high road.

And no, I am not wishing death and destruction on any Americans or cities, I am simply a realist. We are already being attacked by pirates, and bambi is doing nothing. Between that, and our enemies now knowing that we can't make them the slightest bit uncomfortable, they have nothing to fear. These are fanatics we are dealing with, even more fanatical than you O'bots.

The rest of you non libs on here, don't go making jokes about deaths of Americans or even illegals. We are better than that.

It's torture
“The top officials he [George Tenet, CIA director] briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.

The process was “a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm,” a former C.I.A. official said.
Today, asked how it happened, Bush administration officials are finger-pointing. Some blame the C.I.A., while some former agency officials blame the Justice Department or the White House.

….the C.I.A.’s interrogation methods would darken the country’s reputation, blur the moral distinction between terrorists and the Americans who hunted them, bring broad condemnation from Western allies and become a ready-made defense for governments accused of torture. The response has only intensified since Justice Department legal memos released last week showed that two prisoners were waterboarded 266 times and that C.I.A. interrogators were ordered to waterboard one of the captives despite their belief that he had no more information to divulge.”

New York Times, 4/21/09

waterboarding
Why waste our precious water, there must be better ways to get information fron a terrist that is going to wipe out your friends and family if you let them.

I can think of many different ways and it would'nt bother me a bit.

These people? are killers in the name of religon. So, let's help send them on there way.

Nobomma first

Baradiel
You’re creating a false choice: that the only way to get information from a terrorist is to torture him. Professional interrogators keep telling us that tortured people will say anything, true or false, to make the torture stop. How does it help keep the country safe if a terrorist gives false information, sends us on a wild goose chase, when the truth is something else?

And why is the Townhall crowd so eager to justify torturing another human being, no matter how evil he is??? Why is there a growing set of articles on here saying torture works?!

Jeffery

"And why is the Townhall crowd so eager to justify torturing another human being, no matter how evil he is???"

WASHINGTON — A new poll finds that nearly six in 10 white Southern evangelicals believe torture is justified, but their views can shift when they consider the Christian principle of the golden rule.

That question has puzzled me more than all the others. Jesus, himself was tortured and they still are all for it. Maybe one will tell us.

Frey
Your welcome!

"torture"
I guess the only way to prove that more gentle means of interrogating can work, will be to wait for the next possible major attack and then give it a shot. I wonder how many people living in the targeted area would vote for that?

Jeffrey
"Professional interrogators keep telling us that tortured people will say anything, true or false, to make the torture stop."

Not with regard to Los Angeles and other planned targets. Oh, and you made a mistake. There is no longer an "us". Obama ended that once and for all yesterday when he decided to proceed with EX POST FACTO WITCH TRIALS.

"How does it help keep the country safe if a terrorist gives false information, sends us on a wild goose chase, when the truth is something else?"

You worry about "YOUR" country and we will worry about "OURS".

"And why is the Townhall crowd so eager to justify torturing another human being, no matter how evil he is???"


Because we are realistic and understand that the mutterfruckers want to KILL Americans. Now, we just won't worry about your Disaster-in-Chief, who now has even disrupted the CIA in Iraq.

When will you understand that? Look at my earlier posts and I hope that you aren't of draft age because it may have to come back for you guys.

"Why is there a growing set of articles on here saying torture works?!"

Because there is growing evidence that it does. Of course, in fantasy land where everyone subscribes to some Rodney King-theory of life, you all ask "Why can't we all just get along?"

Try telling that to a bunch of nutters, who are awaiting the return of the 12th Imam, that disappeared over 1100 years ago when he was 6. They have to bring about unbelievable death and destruction, so they believe, in order for him to return.

Why do you think Ahmadinejad thinks Aug. 22, 2009 is so important? And, why do you think that the Israeli radio station online that I was listening to early this morning was discussing "The Samson Option"?

Taft
I wish some of the many "Christians" who frequent this website would take a good look at themselves and ask, "exactly what religion is it that I think I'm following, and how am I doing at it?"

Taft & Jeffrey
"Jesus, himself was tortured..."

And, Jesus was, well, Jesus. He knew His Father's plan for him.

"and they still are all for it."

While we believe in God's Will, we also know that God gave us intelligence, faith, and common sense. I have to read a bunch of newly-issued judicial decisions today. Shall I just wait for God to do it for me or, do you think that it is just possible, that he wants me to do it myself?

Nobody is "FOR" it. The choice is between a terrorists and us. I'm sorry, but my children's lives are more important than a terrorist that would chop off their half-Jewish heads.

Pres. Bush Apologize Please!

Please tell these retards that you are so sorry, so terribly sorry, for giving a flying f*ck about their lives. Maybe, you shouldn't have used harsh interrogation techniques to break those with the information on the Second Wave?

Liberals, just think, but for President Bush's actions, you could very well be in particles and floating around Pluto right now!

It's not religion
Americans can be just as violent as any other group of people on this planet. They chop off hands, we shoot people in the head, they torture, we torture, they kill innocent people, we drop billions of dollars worth of bombs, we have mothers who kill their children, fathers who wipe out their entire family because of financial problems, they lynch gays, we crucify them on a fence, beat them, force them to suicide...

And half the posters here wish for certain areas of the country to be nuked or taken out by natural disasters. Please attack Los Angeles! That will show them!

I wonder if these same people jumped up and down like the Muslims did when NYC was attacked?? WOO HOO All those liberal votes going up in flames!

I guess my humor is not that dry.

Denise
If crucifying Jesus Christ on the cross is no big deal, and his death is insignificant because He knew his father’s plan, then how are Christians supposed to believe the sacrifice in Christ having “died for our sins”?? What, along with rationalizing torture, you now wish to undermine Christianity? Expect to get a LOT of angry posts on that one.

Seriously, dear, I think you really need to step away from the computer for a bit. You keep arguing for the torture of fellow human beings. It’s highly unseemly, no matter how evil you perceive them to be. Pretend you are a Christian, that Jesus Christ has some place in your life, and He’s sitting next to you as you type your thoughts on this topic. Would you still be so enthusiastic about advocating the torture of another human being?

Jeffrey

Don't worry about me.

Keep these three things in mind:

August 22, 2009, which is the date that Ahmadinejad believes the 12th Imam will return and he can only do so through extraordinary death and destruction, according to the nuts in Iran.

The Samson Option within 60 days, which is Israel's detterent nuclear missile strike on Iran that they were discussing on Israeli radio early this morning. I was listening online.

Clinton saying that Iran will face crippling sanctions if they refuse to allow in inspectors, which will not happen.

You think that you can live in a perfect world and that Obama is the king of it, but you are so pitifully wrong.

With regard to Shiites, you are dealing with people, whose sole purpose is to hasten the return of the 12th Imam, who disappeared at the age of 6 over 1,100 years ago.

How do you think that you can dialogue with them?

Fools in the White House
These people are fools. What self-destructive mindset motivates them to release this information?
While the "civilized" Euro's may think that this is a wonderful thing (publicly, anyway) the various terrorists, foreign despots, and other of our enemies are quietly laughing at this naive President and administration.
These are the people who extract their information by among other techniques, severe beatings, burnings, electrical "stimulation" to body parts that I won't mention here, removal of fingernails and amputation of said related digits, not to mention the old standard, torturing of family members in front of them without a second thought.
Why don't the offended parties complain about their "mistreatment"? It's because they're DEAD! After information is extracted, they're killed and their bodies are disposed of to never be seen again.
This is the reality of the world we live in, and now our enemies need not worry about the so-called horrors of sleep deprivation, and that evil of all evils, waterboarding.
Information is the goal here, and often time is critical as well. While we'll never sink to the vile levels of our enemies, we can't be limited to the "please tell us what we want to know" mentality. This will come back to haunt us.
What fools we've allowed into the White House.


Oops
Now that the neocons need to defend their torture after years of lying about whether we tortured, they have hatched this idea that the torture of Khalid Sheik Muhammad foiled the Library Tower plot. This might work better had they chosen not to lie about the torture for so long, because then they might have their story straight.

But in 2006 they had not decided on this particular defense and so we get this briefing from the whitehouse http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2 006/02/20060209-4.html which makes clear that the plot to attack the Library Tower, was actually foiled in 2002. Jeffrey's is now claiming that this foiling was done using torture that occurred in 2003 (and he is not alone the neocons seem to synchronize their lies). But if the Bush administration really possessed the time machine necessary to make this happen, why wouldn't they go back and foil 9/11 instead?

Instead we get the not particularly shocking news that people who torture also lie. Talk about behavior that is inconsistent with being a christian.

Denise
I have no idea how your response relates to my concerns for your fondness for torture, or your hate speech regarding Christianity.

I think you have created a false construct: that the most efficient, effective way to get the truth out of someone who is an adversary, is to torture him. I believe that’s false. I believe what the professionals say about the use of torture to extract actionable information: it doesn’t work, and can elicit false testimony. That’s why the FBI backed out from assisting in detainee interrogations at the beginning of the war when they found out the methods (i.e., torture) being used: they said it doesn’t work and is legally questionable.

Do you have a logical explanation why one man was waterboarded 266 times? Is 266th time the charm?

Again, this is quite alarming, this website blossoming articles rationalizing the use of torture, a war crime. And the posters who are all for it. Very disturbing. But I guess if you can believe that attacking Iraq, a country that did nothing to us and harbored no terrorist, was the right thing to do, people can believe anything!

Jeffrey
They did get good info out of those three. Lives have been saved. Everyone has a breaking point. Everyone breaks. Trained interogators can tell the difference between lying and the truth.

These men were broken by these interogation techniques, and yeilded information that saved American lives.

And no, this wasn't torture. Ask POWs from the Vietnam war about torture. If it was torture, we would use the same techniques on our own servicemen and women.

Thank God for Bush and Cheney, and these Interogators, for doing what they had to do to keep us safe.

But for you libs, another 3,000 dead Americans is a worthy price to pay for taking the supposed high road.

matthew

"I wonder if these same people jumped up and down like the Muslims did when NYC was attacked?? WOO HOO All those liberal votes going up in flames!"

No, we were the same people who enlisted or were already serving, and took the fight to the enemy. The same people who prayed for the Lord to watch over the troops in battle. The same people who ran into the burning towers and saved lives.

Lon
No lying. There was no torture. We also got valuable information to save lives. Now, our fanatical enemies that are captured will be harder to break. Thanks libs.

Any future blood is on Obama's hands.

IRREFUTABLE PROOF!
This is IRREFUTABLE, UNDENIABLE, and DEMONSTRABLE PROOF that idiots like Der Fuhrer Obama, sataniclib, Leo, Taft, matthew, and Jeffrey absolutely DESPISE this country.

These nutballs are all shouting in unison "PLEASE, OH PLEASE, SIR BIN LADEN, BLOW UP OUR CHILDREN!!"

They have been presented with IRON CLAD evidence that if we are prohibited from these "enhanced interrogation techniques", thousands of US lives will be lost. They have been show that, and yet their reaction is "I don't care how many people are saved, we believe that taking away Osama bin Laden's Koran and cable TV is worse than watching millions of children be tortured to death!"

The saddest part of all is that there are so many America-hating fascist pukes out there that are right now dancing in the street at the prospect of 1000 more 9/11s that are on their way now that Obama has openly stated that he has no intention whatsoever from preventing them from happening.

Welcome to Obamanation.

Jeffrey - I
"I have no idea how your response relates to my concerns for your fondness for torture, or your hate speech regarding Christianity."

Where to I claim to have a "fondness" for torture? I am against the death penalty in the US, but I don't want another 09.11.01 to happen or worse. And, where I have I claimed to hate Christianity? Strange, since I am a Christian.

"I think you have created a false construct: that the most efficient, effective way to get the truth out of someone who is an adversary, is to torture him."

It is an effective way although it is NOT the only manner.

"I believe what the professionals say about the use of torture to extract actionable information: it doesn’t work, and can elicit false testimony."

It didn't work with regard to LA? It elicited false "evidence" (NOT testimony)?

"That’s why the FBI backed out from assisting in detainee interrogations at the beginning of the war when they found out the methods (i.e., torture) being used: they said it doesn’t work and is legally questionable."

The FBI is not legally able to act in consort with the CIA offshore. It is against the law.


Beowolfe
Should the FBI agents who refused to interrogate using torture be tried for treason? Do they hate America, too?

It is going to be interesting
to see the reaction of the left when, after a series of tragic events, it is revealed that the Obama administration "tortured" terrorist detainees and that future attacks were averted.

The back pedaling will be interesting to watch. I refrain from saying fun to watch, simply because I don't want to see anymore Americans killed. But like I said, I am a realist.

Jeffrey - II
"Do you have a logical explanation why one man was waterboarded 266 times? Is 266th time the charm?"

No, but did they die? Do they troops that routinely undergo S.E.R.E. die? Are they, too, being tortured?

ROTFLMAO! You assume facts not in evidence. I was against going into Iraq.

But, don't worry about it. The CIA in Iraq is no longer interrogating prisoners because it is deathly afraid of being persecuted. "Keep Them", they say to the military. And, go ahead and tell Obama to rebuild "The Wall", use police tactics, and deal with any terrorist attacks through the judicial system.

Welcome back the Clinton years. Afterall, the things that I just laid out were its aapproach to terrorist activities and the terrorists had started planning 09.11.01 in the 1990s.

beowulfe
And McCain hates our country too? This Texan said it better than I ever could.



I'm intrigued by your line of reasoning. It's quite simple, really, despite the many ways you've explained it: Because we kill people in war, anything else we do to them is okay - so long as we can claim cause. Truly fascinating. You've even been kind enough to provide a basic litmus test in your final paragraph. If we aren't (1) targeting the innocent, (2) sadistically motivated, and (3) without just cause, then the sky is the limit!

This got me thinking about treatment of prisoners in our own country. Most states have the death penalty, so does the same argument apply? If we are willing to kill our prisoners while they sit motionless and incapable of causing us harm, are we free to terrorize them (with cause!)? And since you're the present authority, can you define which causes are just? If the prisoner has knowledge of crimes yet to be commited, can we let loose? Do those crimes have to be especially egregious (ie: child molestation / rape / murder), or will simple property crimes do?

If acceptable only for the particularly heinous stuff, how many citizens must be at risk? A bus full? A building full (how many stories)? A whole city? I've noticed the "nuclear bomb in a major city" cliche come up a few times. That one's easy, but I'll need somebody to help me out with the exact number that makes it okay to do that which has, until now, been the very thing we fought to stop.

The full extent of your argument is just beginning to dawn on me. Any country that has ever been involved in a war has given itself permission to treat its prisoners/detainees/word-of-the-day however it sees fit, so long as there is the promise of information that may, or may not, prove to keep its citizens from harm! Brilliant! Would this have applied to the Vietnamese holding John McCain? Were their aims (self-preservation? victory?) enough to justify his treatment?


No More Torture Ever!

You guys want to make kissy-face and play patty-cake with a bunch of thugs that want YOU DEAD. There is no compromise in their plan.

When you understand that they declared war on us many years before we have did on them, you will understand that this is not your typical war.

It is a war that was started by a bunch of nuts that want to bring about catastrophic destruction and death in order to bring back a 6 year-old Imam that disappeared 1,100 years ago.

Good luck in negotiating with them.

prove it?
In one sense, torture has been the traditional method for thousands of years. I suspect millions of people have used it, and at least some were using it to gain information (as opposed to forcing a show confession or deter unwanted behavior). Were all these people too gullible to see what the Wise Compassionate Left sees?

While I can easily see the case that other methods can work, and may even work better than torture in some cases, I think the burden is on those who say torture doesn't work to prove their claims. Simply arguing that other methods work is not enough. Demonstrating that I can get from Los Angeles to San Francisco by bicycle doesn't prove that travel by car doesn't work.

Denise
Regarding Christianity, you asserted that Christ’s tortured death is of little consequence, because he knew his father’s plan for him. Christians believe that Christ died a painful death as penance for their sins. His death, and what it represents to Christians, is the most significant event in Christianity. To belittle it is offensive to Christians, and causes me to doubt your claim about being a Christian yourself.

I believe you are fond of torture because nowhere have you expressed any concerns about the morality or legality of using it, even if it prevents death. You dwell on the evil nature of our adversaries, which says to me, it’s their evil that drives you to rationalize torture, not the desire to get actionable intelligence.

The FBI operates globally. I believe you are confusing the prohibition against the CIA operating within the US.

It is suspect what information was received about further US attacks. I’m surprised that you are so willing to accept as truth claims from a government that tortures people, in violation of international treaties, US law, any kind of ethics or morality, etc. You are highly naïve. Of course, with all the hubbub over torture, and threats of being treated as war criminals, Bush officials are going to claim high and low that it worked.

If I
was any kind of intel officer right now I would be operating in a manner that would 100% cover my butt, I would no longer do the things that have irrefutably kept this nation safe since 9-11. This nation as of yesterday just became less safe, the terrorist became more dangerous. The next spilled blood is on the hands of Obama and all his supporters. God help us!

So . . . all of you mentally deficient
liberals believe that the author and the CIA are completely falsifying info in the following statement?

"On Tuesday, the CIA confirmed to me that it stands by assertions credited to the agency in this 2005 memo that subjecting KSM to "enhanced techniques" of interrogation -- including waterboarding -- caused him to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles."

This author is risking (if it's not true) his professional career by stating that he spoke and confirmed these facts with someone within the CIA. What are you risking by calling him a liar? Where are your facts and/or credentials?

To Leo: You are a joke. How can waterboarding be "torture" when our own soldiers were subjected to it for training purposes? It is "simulated" (aka, pretend) drowning. Oh no, we slammed a man, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans, into a wall? Oh, the humanity! Give me a break. Those who call our interrogation techniques "torture" have no concept of what real torture is. Maybe one day, you'll be fortunate enough to be caught with drugs in a SE Asian country or mistaken for an important person and abducted by an African warlord... then you'll understand torture. Oh, and then you'll understand pain and death.

Jeffrey
Christ's death would have been efficatious if he had died in his sleep, he was perfect and obediant which was required to pay our debt.

Mercy, they don't even lie skillfully
Poor Mr. Jeffrey, probably a decent sort, fed these lies . . .

Here:

February 2002: Bush counterterrorism chief Frances Fragos Townsend announces capture of cell leader and breakup of L.A. plot.

May 2007: Bush fact sheet released by White House notes this achievement, citing the breakup of L.A. plot in 2002.

March 2003: KSM captured.

You mean they waterboarded him and got the crucial information before they captured him?

They waterboarded him from a distance?

Did they use some sort of really long board, miles and miles long?

Some people will believe anything.

Karl
For the most part, I am in agreement with you, except for one thing. We didn't torture anyone.

The CIA must be liars
I've argued this point with a fellow who claims to be a professional interrogator with the Army. (I think he's since left the Army, and it seems to coincide with an interview he gave to NPR blasting the Bush Administration's handling of detainees.) He is one of those who claims that "Torture Doesn't Work!!!" Anyone who declines to take his unsupported word as an Expert is declared to "support torture". Any evidence you care to cite that any kind of enhanced interrogation techniques yielded useful information has to be wrong, and is declared so.

By his unsupported word. Which you have to believe because he's an Expert. If the CIA contradicts him, it's because they're lying.

Denise
You misunderstand most liberals.

I will kill each and every terrorist I find. I will blow their brains out and leave grey goo over the ground, and then I will remove their heads to make certain they are dead. I do not play patty cake or desire to have tea with them. Nor do I have any need to torture them.

Based on reasonable intelligence, Osama Bin Laden is in the border area of Pakistan/Afghanistan. Only the limited brained conservatives thought he was in or had anything to do with Iraq.

We know where he is and don't need torture to find out.

GhostoftheRepublic
If I may add to your point.

"Oh no, we slammed a man, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans, into a wall?"

The wall was padded, and he was wearing a neck brace as well. It was a technique to shock him. He suffered no harm.

People of the left
really, do you think the American people are losing sleep because we have treated a few actual terrorists rudely! Really. Water boarding although I am sure it is no fun is not torture, it simply by law is not torture and it leaves no marks or harm except to the diminished arrogance of the tough guy murderers that give up their mothers to make it stop.

You lefties like polls so check them, the public does not care if we are harsh with bad guys.

Intellectual arguments are fun
But consider whether in a real case you could actually say the innocent must die to save our moral standing.

It is alright to watch from a far? If a family member of a well known individual was at risk from a nut case who held them hostage we must say "read him his rights" and not use every means possible to save the individual? How is that morally better? To choose to do nothing is moral cowardice.

If we had these individuals prior to 9/11 could we say proudly that we chose to let the people die?

Under the construct of the left if one knew that kindness was pschologically painful to a prisoner kindness would be torture.

Bleeding Heart Liberal
Iraq? I thought it was over oil? I can't keep strait why you libs think we went there.

And we never tortured anyone.

Baradiel
You wrote: "For the most part, I am in agreement with you, except for one thing. We didn't torture anyone."

The "Professional Interrogator" I've been following has actually defined "torture" as "any physical or mental coercion -- ANY."

When I pointed out that definition includes tax audits, being pulled over by the CHP, "no TV unless your homework's done" qualify as torture, he ignored me. However, by his definition, yes, we have tortured prisoners. All prisoners. Anywhere in the penal system.

(In another forum, one person accused me of making up the quote. I have the URL saved on my blog. Interestingly enough, this person has never responded to my offer to bet $500 that I could produce a link to the quote.)

Torture?
If y'all think waterboarding is torture, you have absolutely no idea what torture is.

I guess for you, waiting too long at McD's for your Happy Meal is torture as well.

Semper FI

Denise
You’re falling into the typical conservative syndrome of claiming catastrophe if this or that happens, or doesn’t happen. “Welcome back to the Clinton years!” I’m sure this is supposed to make us squirm but the fact is, far fewer people were killed by terrorism under Clinton than under Bush, who took his eyes off the ball when he might have thwarted 9/11, and then compounded the problem by attacking Iraq (resulting in more dead Americans than were killed on 9/11) and torturing detainees.

First the Bush administration claims it didn’t use torture. When the evidence becomes overwhelming that it did, it now claims that torture worked and saved America from cataclysm. I suspect that as the media expose even this as a lie, there will be some new reason to justify torturing human beings.

If it comes to it, do you think Bush administration officials should be tried for war crimes, even if it is demonstrated that torturing detainees saved lives?

Lefties
That adore abortion and keeping poor kids in bad schools trying to act like they have some moral high ground is ludicrous on its face, a pox on all your houses. Be gone!

A compromise
Ok libs, how does this sound.

We will admit that water boarding and whatnought is torture. But you all have to admit that abortion is murder. Deal?

Karl, touche'.

Jeffrey
You guys are cute, you call a bill that would insure closed shops "The freedom of Choice act"
and here you are calling enhanced treatment torture. There are no acts of torture approved by the US.

David
We are not just "harsh." Anyone who has been WB will tell you it is torture and we killed two Japanese convicted of WB Americans.

"And so we must ask ourselves at last if terror is the best answer to terror. Mayer has her doubts. "Torture works in several ways," she summarizes. "It can intimidate enemies, it can elicit false confessions, and it can produce true confessions. Setting aside the moral issues, the problem is recognizing what's true." Mohammed "confessed" to planning the assassinations of Presidents Clinton and Carter, as well as Pope John Paul II. Zubayda, under assault, spun outlandish tales of "plots to blow up American banks, supermarkets, malls, the Statue of Liberty, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge, and nuclear power plants," sending law-enforcement officials scurrying down any number of blind alleys.

It also hurts our war on terrorism.


"The greatest damage came from Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. Chief of an al-Qaida training camp, he was captured by Pakistanis shortly after 9/11 and handed over to Egyptian interrogators, who pressed him for damaging information on Saddam Hussein. Al-Libi didn't even understand what "biological weapons" were, and at first he was so confused by the line of questioning he couldn't come up with a story. Soon enough, he figured out what his interrogators wanted, and the tale he fabricated -- WMD flowing in an unbroken line from Saddam to al-Qaida -- became a decisive factor in the decision to go to war. When asked later why he had lied, al-Libi had a simple explanation: "They were killing me. I had to tell them something."

Baradiel
I like the way you think, Amen

Kevin
Semper Fi Bro!

These idiots would probably see Marine Corps Recruit Training and claim that the DIs were being mean and that kind of yelling doesn't get anything accomplished.

As I've said...
Taft wrote:
"Torture can work. The pros, like the Gestapo got some useful information. It very often doesn't though, and there are really many other better, and legal, methods of getting information."

You've just contradicted a Professional Interrogator (tm) who declares that "Torture Doesn't Work".

What you're saying is pretty much what I'm saying, and what I've been saying all along. I'm perfectly willing to believe non-torture methods can and do work. I even accept the notion that some of these methods may work better, under at least some circumstances, than torture does.

But those who insist that Torture Doesn't Work have to do a lot more than simply declare it as a position and impugn the morals and character of anyone who declines to take their word for it.

Let those of us who oppose torture make the moral case -- that there are some lines we, as good and civilized people, will not cross no matter the coast. Let us also do, as was done in the interrogation memos, make clear what lines we will cross, if the need is great enough.

The "Professional Interrogator" I've cited wants to make a pure "utilitarian" case against torture by declaring that torture never works. The danger of a utilitarian argument is that it's only as good as your data. In this case, the "PI" has to somehow dispose of any data that shows that torture ever works, simply because he refuses to make the moral case.

Bleeding Heart Liberal
"You misunderstand most liberals."

I understand the ones on TH that advocate no harsh tactics, at all. They don't even want sleep deprivation, irregular meal times, loud voices, and things that suffered for two years after the birth of each of my children.

"I will kill each and every terrorist I find. I will blow their brains out and leave grey goo over the ground, and then I will remove their heads to make certain they are dead. I do not play patty cake or desire to have tea with them. Nor do I have any need to torture them."

Praise the Lord. You have some sense. I am not advocating torture. I only am realistic and know that we aren't fighting under some ancient form of rules of engagement.

"Based on reasonable intelligence, Osama Bin Laden is in the border area of Pakistan/Afghanistan. Only the limited brained conservatives thought he was in or had anything to do with Iraq."

I was against going into Iraq.

"We know where he is and don't need torture to find out."

The Afghan-Pakistan border regions aren't exactly hospitable. We have to have actionable intelligence on where exactly he is. Remember we came close at Tora-Tora, but still lost him.

Frankly, I am more concerned about the coming conflagration between Iran and Israel.

ksm
ksm was waterboarded not to prevent an attack on los angeles but to try and establish a link between saddam hussein and al qaeda in order to justify an invasion of iraq. its as simple as that. and they never found that link. thats why the reason for invading changed so many times. from mushroom cloud to saddam gasses his own people to establishing a democracy in the middle east blah blah blah. just read the pnac. oh and thats why cheney will always fight to not reveal who was even at his secret energy task force in 2001. he cites national security issues lol. how could it harm national security 8 years later just finding out who was present at the meeting? i think we all have a pretty good idea who was there. so his refusal of a foi request is more about legacy security than it is about national security.

We shall see
The ultimate test will be if another terrorist attack occures.

Remember, the blood will be on Obama's hands. He won't be able to feign any kind of ignorance.

Baradiel
Not all Marines would agree with you.

http://www.mcitta.org/torture.htm

Baradiel

Now, come down to earth and think about it. The worst terrorist attack we have ever had was under Bush's watch and then we had an Anthrax attack.

Taft
There is only one way to have peace and that is today and through history STRENGTH period. KSM did not give anything up initially because he said we were to weak to do what is necessary, I guess he changed his mind after enhanced treatment and sang like a bird and we got to save innocent lives as a result. SO have your little morality tiff if you like although when it come s to abortion I bet you go the other way. So you deal with the conundrum it works both ways, if you have the ability through enhanced treatment to save lives, innocent lives, would you? Would you be harsh witha very bad and evil person to save the lives of your family maybe.

I know how the public will vote!
I know how the public will vote on this!

David in TX
“Christ's death would have been efficatious if he had died in his sleep, he was perfect and obediant which was required to pay our debt.”

I was merely responding to Denise’s assertion, when someone noted that Jesus Christ died a torturous death, that this painful death is insignificant, since Christ knew what God had in store for him after his death. I believe this notion is offensive to Christians, who believe that Christ died for their sins, and therefore his death must have involved sacrifice or hardship. If Christ’s dying involved no sacrifice or hardship, then it’s hard to create a religion around saying, “Christ died for our sins,” and therefore as a Christian, one’s own sacrifices in order to be faithful are insignificant.

If Christ died of old age, in his sleep, it would be hard to get Christians to be grateful and do all the stuff they do in Christ’s name. That’s why Jesus shown hanging on a cross is so prevalent in Christian churches and homes.

Torture
I would like to think I would not break, but if someone was branding me or cutting off my fingers or even waterboarding me I bet I would give up the info.

Really difficult for anyone to say that WB doesnt work when we have evidence that it has and in each of our hearts we are all pretty sure we could not take it either.

Gotta love him.
Obama only wants to be loved folks. He doesn't want America to be loved, or respected & if America has to go down the tubes to prove Obama is lovable...so be it. To hell with America. America is a hateful place. But lets all just sit around & love that Obama. Whatta guy!

David
KSM

"..Among them, Bush said, were Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged 9/11 mastermind, and his fellow conspirator Ramzi Binalshibh. In fact, Binalshibh was not arrested for another six months and K.S.M. not for another year. In K.S.M.’s case, the lead came from an informant motivated by a $25 million reward.
As for K.S.M. himself, who (as Jane Mayer writes) was waterboarded, reportedly hung for hours on end from his wrists, beaten, and subjected to other agonies for weeks, Bush said he provided “many details of other plots to kill innocent Americans.” K.S.M. was certainly knowledgeable. It would be surprising if he gave up nothing of value. But according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on K.S.M., “90 percent of it was total f*cking bullsh*t.” A former Pentagon analyst adds: “K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence. He was trying to tell us how stupid we were.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812

Jeffrey

I did not belittle Christ's death. My point was that he was Christ and we are human.

As for you doubting my Christianity, I don't really care. The fact that you believe that you have some God-granted right to judge the hearts of others leads me... Well, nevermind.


Hey! Maybe, I should tell you that I am an Atheist since you Liberals LOVE Atheists.


the left
would whine if we used tickling as a way of interrogating terrorists. Sad that the possibility of more innocent American's dying because they want to be nice.

David
Good points. Even the Nazis couldn't break a few hard core prisoners.

" Having a strong belief in the truth not once did Noor reveal any information. Saying only she was an operative from England. It is said that her resilience and tenacity and endurance had an effect even on the hardened prison chiefs of the Gestapo. After enduring 9 months of tortuous imprisonment Noor was transferred with 3 other SEO to the Dachau concentration camp where she was executed with a bullet to the back of her head (just days before Dachau was liberated by the Americans). It is reported her last words before being shot were “liberty” Another report by a witness says a guard tried to force her to say "Heil Hitler" she refused saying "One day you will see the truth".

http://www.writespirit.net/authors/noor_inayat_khan/?search term=noor%20khan

Jeffrey
The only reason I can come up with in short order as to the torture involved in Christ's death is the fulfillment of prophecy. The spectacle of his death in that time was commonplace, the cross was a death machine as it were and was used a lot.

The form of his death in no way colors my devotion to him and I take exception to Denise' comments. Christ was the God Man and came willingly as a sacrifice to pay the debt for the sins of the church.I know of no christian that believes in him becauuse of his tragic death. I am grateful for his sacrifice however he died.

David of TX
“There are no acts of torture approved by the US.”

Wow, for a non-issue, it sure is getting a lot of attention. I wonder why so many people are having a hard time seeing what you apparently see so clearly. You do realize that waterboarding was tried by the US as a war crime after WWII? Has the definition of torture changed since then? Is this one more example of the moral relatively that conservatives like to use?

The problem is, somebody early on decided that torture was ok for us to use, including waterboarding. Then the government had to work backwards to make torture legal. That’s bassackwards. What should have happened is that the government should have asked the question: we need to foil any plots for further attacks. To do that, we need to get any information we can from people who might know. How can we best do that?

Answering that question doesn’t lead you to torturing people. At least not according to professional interrogators, including our own FBI, which refused to participate with the CIA in torturing prisoners.

uber
"There are these pesky things, they are called objective facts. You don't negotiate about morality."

Thanks for proving my point. Objective facts would see the butchering of a child in the womb as murder. Objective facts would not see making someone uncomfortable as torture, nor would objective facts see anything with employing such techniques when they have shown to reveal information that has saved lives.

"Nothing says Big Government like outlawing a persons right to have control over their own bodies."

We don't care what a woman does with her body. Get tats, implants, what have you. Her child's body, that is another story, especially when it comes to ending the child's life.

Oh, and fixed this for you

"Try nothing is worse than replacing science classes with Environnemtalist and Evolition dogma."

Taft/Daft

Funny, not a single Marine I ever served with had a problem with waterboarding or otherwise "torturing" terrorists. We often wished we were trained to do it and allowed to do it ourselves on captured insurgents.

I don't know why we argue
With people who are so eager to kill the innocent unborn and protect the evil. That should be enough to shun them altogether.

Jeffrey
Yes legally waterboarding is not considered torture.

David
You would break, eventually. We all would.

When I went to 29 palms for my unit's Mojave Viper training, we got a class about being taken captive and resisting. The instructor flat out told us if you are captured, you will break, only a matter of time. But you can stall by doing certain things. In a captured American serviceman's case, he can stall and have a reasonable chance of stalling until he is rescued. These detainees didn't have that chance. Time was completely on the interogators side.

Criminals here in the US can often be broken through different means, cops and FBI can often use all sorts of leverage. When you are dealing with fanatics who want to be martyrd, you have to take a different approach.

Baradiel
I don't know, there are a great many who protest its use.


"A U.S. military interrogator offers a first hand account of his experience in Iraq, the brutal methods he and others routinely employed, and why he came to believe U.S interrogation tactics fail both morally and strategically.

Guests Tony Lagouranis, former U.S. Army Specialist from 2001 to 2005.

Robert Conquest, a venerable sovietologist and favorite historian of conservatives, who Bush awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, called these (USSR) tactics "torture," stating that "Torture is...a worse crime against humanity than killing.” If these sorts of actions were “torture” when the Soviet Union engaged in them, they are “torture” when we do them."

More on the strategic ineffectiveness of torture from 20-year SERE Instructor Michael Nance http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004659.php .

More on waterboarding from former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-t orture-perio/

FPTV: Lt. Col. John Nagl on “The Jack Bauer Effect”
Page 1 of 1

Posted March 2008 http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4223

The acclaimed Army officer who literally wrote the book on counterinsurgency weighs in on 24, its impact on the U.S. military’s view of torture, and the implications for the fight against terrorism.

...we in the military must maintain our most important attribute and that is the reputation as the good guy.

Jeffrey
"You do realize that waterboarding was tried by the US as a war crime after WWII?"

Was it performed on a POW? Then yes, it is a war crime. These are not POWs we are talking about. POWs have committed no crime. These people have.

Fuzzy little caterpillers!!
THAT'S what KSM was so afraid of he wet his pants and spilled the beans!!!! They TOLD him he was going to have to live in a small room with a caterpiller. They lied and said it would sting him.

Our ops guys had learned that he had a great paralyzing fear of all bugs and USED IT. No real danger or harm but FEAR did the job.

-Ray
NRA Life Member
Soli Deo Gloria!!

Taft
"I don't know, there are a great many who protest its use."

But, as the memos that doofus revealed show, "torture" worked.

There is no smoking hole in LA to match the one in New York. Thanks God.

"...we in the military must maintain our most important attribute and that is the reputation as the good guy."

Which is why we kill terrorists, and protect the innocent. If we have to make a few terrorists uncomfortable to protect the innocent, then so be it. And don't think that because a few officers agree with Obama on this, that most of the Military does.

So ...
let me get this straight.

Water boarding saved another liberal city from terrorist attack, saving thousands of liberal lives -- but now liberals want these techniques removed?

Works for me.
(tongue in cheek!)

BTW
questions for liberals.

Which is worse:

Water boarding or murder?

Bush water-boarded the terrorists - a technique used in training by our own military, and saved lives.

Obama killed three pirate terrorists dead. Why didn't he capture them and have a soft spoken chat to try to get the captain back?

Our troops
Will solve this problem. They simply won't take prisoners. After all, if they are dead, they can't be "tortured".

If
you accept torturing arabs and muslims you accept torture of Americans. When taleban tortures American civilians or soldiers by using waterboarding, will you be as permissive and call it "Interrogation"? Or do you just enjoy causing pain to arabs and muslims?

What is the difference between Americans torturing people for information and taleban or muslim terrorists torturing American for information? Either both are OK or both are wrong?

You Christians are so blood thirsty, you rejoice and celebrate causing pain, you love torture and you're willing to make excuses for any kind of human rights violations as long as those tortured are of different belief than you are.

There's no difference between American torture advocate or Taleban torture apologist. None. You have turned into your enemies, nothing distinguishes you from the people who claim to oppose.

I hope you are happy because you have managed to change USA from vanguard of human rights to human rights abuser and a nation who tortures

To you the end justifies the means, that is the logic of muslim extremists too. All you want is to cause pain and suffering.

Who would Jesus waterboard?

CIA
I think if today I were a CIA employee, I would seriously consider resigning. Because of the documentation regarding alleged torture, it is my belief that the CIA will be too reluctant to carry out their missions so to speak without fear of reprisal. Thank you Mr. President.

As a United States citizen who believes that her country will do what it needs to do to keep our country safe, I do not need to know everything. The missions that our CIA go out on are supposed to be "Top Secret". That means just that. Nobody is supposed to know about them. And now that I do, so do those who wish us harm! And so do the few Americans who are out there looking to harm others.

I do not believe in any way that it was in our best interests to hear about this. I think the announcement of these memos was about self-serving individuals looking to take down an agency who has been instrumental in keeping this country safe to make themselves look good.

at what cost?
I am sorry that people who tried to kill Americans, and succeeded were uncomfortable in U.S. custody. I am sorry because if a 911 attack had been made on Hollywood, maybe those idiots would stop and smell the coffee.
Don't they remember that a producer and his wife and child were killed on 911? We are not dealing with people who signed or respect the Geneva Convention. We are dealing with people who behead their sisters for being raped.
Would I like to see a smarter way to interrogate the enemy? Yes!! Do I care about terrorist rights ? NO!!!!!
Do I want to see Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Dashel,and Reed Impeached? YES, YEA, SI,YAH, DA,QUI!!!!! Let's impeach the whole Congress while we are at it!!

Jo
No, you don't have that quite right. The people who first lied and told us that torture didn't occur then claimed, against the available evidence, that when they tortured it was effective. When that becomes untenable, they will no doubt move on to some other lie.

That is one of the problems with torture. Since it is so clearly reprehensible, there becomes a need to distort in order to defend the behavior.

It now looks like it is becoming increasingly clear that we waterboarded, and very extensively in a couple of cases, because the administration was trying to get evidence of a link between Hussein and al qaeda, and there was no link to be had. That is to say we tortured, not to find out of there was a link between Hussein and al qaeda, but rather to get evidence for such a link, whether true or not.

Now, in order to justify torture the people involved need to try to make the case that a plot that was foiled in 2002 was foiled because of torture that occurred in 2003.

Fortunately for them, they are only really trying to make the case for the 30% of the country that feels pride in torturing people (bizarrely most of them consider themselves christians) and so are not likely to look into details like what happened when.

Leave It to the Experts
Americans should not torture terrorists.

That should be left to our allies, the Afghans and Israelis.

Angela
Even better. Torture is OK as long as its done in secret, after all we don't "need to know" about atrocities our own government does in the name of "freedom" and "security".

Anything goes for you people. End justifies means. ALL means. And you Christians whine about moral relativism...






SAD SO SAD
The LIBS who want to provided protection from our INTEL Integrations are whing about how someone/FOREIGN TERRORIST was treated after Killing Thousands of Americans but Never whine about Americans KILLING millions of UNBORN AMERICAN BABIES

Where is your Moralities. I know UP YOUR A$$

Reading some of these on here I hope by your definition of Torture you are not Married for it would be catagorised as TORTURE by LIBS. Thats probably why they Support GAY MARRIAGE also.

Hate Monger Obama Exposes Tricks ForGain
Obama is such a hate monger that exposing America's tricks of interrogation is worth the effort to incite hate and political support.

As we have learned, Americans used trickery developed in the training of our own troops to cause prisoners to think that they were being tortured to gain information. The charade was so effective that everyone thought we used torture.

However, Obama is so much caught up in his own self-aggrandizement that he exposes our trickery only to deflect more hate on his predessor. Bush, on the other hand, and to his peril, was willing to let the charade stand, rather than expose the trickery and America's very humane and vulnerable underside.

Bush put country first over his own good. Obama, as expected, continues to do just the opposite!

Georgetwin
Remember when Teddy the K tried to block a wind farm being built in the waters off the Kennedy compound because it would spoil his view of the bay and interfere with his yachting?

Joel-De Oppresso
Thank you too for your service. What do you think about the opinion on torturing when it comes to our guys being caught. If we do it then, they can? I know AQ doesn't care, and tortures anyway but what about the countries that signed the GC and what about upholding our own laws on torture. Laws are usually good things.

I know Iran torture too, but, I don'think they have tortured that poor girl from North Dakota, Roxanna, but, what if they did? We'd be damned mad, right!

David, TX
"The form of his death in no way colors my devotion to him and I take exception to Denise' comments. Christ was the God Man and came willingly as a sacrifice to pay the debt for the sins of the church.I know of no christian that believes in him becauuse of his tragic death. I am grateful for his sacrifice however he died."

While not a fundamentalist, I am a born-again Christian so, obviously, I KNOW why Christ died ... To wash away my sins.

I told Jeffrey that "Jesus was, well, Jesus" because he wanted to know why Christ didn't stop the torture.

Christ knew why he was on the Earth. We are mere sinful, human beings; Christ was not.

Don't fall into the trap that Liberals love to play... If a Christian sins, they claim he/she can't be a Christian. You and I know better. We are called upon to follow in Christ's footsteps, but we are still sinners.

Additionallly, I have a real problem with anyone, who calls himself a Christian, questioning my Christianity like Jeffrey did.

Unlike Jeffrey, I do not throw stones at someone's claim of being a Christian. I cannot know what is in a man or woman's heart. I take their word for it.

Trust me, some of the most devout Christians that I have ever met would be those most would think least likely; while, I have seen people proclaim their Christian superiority only to be caught in adulterous affairs.

Sorry, if you took offense, but I, too, am forever grateful for Christ's role in my life.

Exposing Interrogation Tricks Hurts USA
Angela offers, "Because of the documentation regarding alleged torture, it is my belief that the CIA will be too reluctant to carry out their missions so to speak without fear of reprisal."

Absolutely!

When you use trickery to fool your captives into thinking you are dangerously torturing them, your charade is all you have. If a President is willing to expose your charade for political gain, your life, as well as America's, is in grave peril.

As you say, "thank you, Mr. President!"

Daft::
We already know they US troops taken prisoner are being tortured in ways that make waterboarding look like a walk in the park.

Leo
Are you just using this subject to bash Christians, or are you angry that we dunked three guys for the possibility of saving hundreds, or even thousands of Americans? Who said anything about torturing all Muslims? You seem to stereotype Christians with your own personal vendetta against those who disagree with you into ad-hominem attacks resulting in an emotional argument lost to those who would wet one man's head to save some Americans.

Here's how it is. We used water boarding on what, three guys, and our Navy has to go through waterboarding in training. How many deaths have you heard of in the training of our navy personnel?

And using your logic, since these guys happen to be of different faith, makes us bloodthirsty and wanting nothing but pain because of a different theological standard. The difference between Christianity and Islam is easy to see. The only reason you group all of us into an angry crowd bent on torturing all is from the previous comments of others who would do anything to save American lives, rather than appease a crowd of anti-American enemies who want nothing but our destruction, or a conversion of every one of us. Some were sarcastic in their comments, while others were trying to prove a point.

When did it become wrong to protect the United States? I don't advocate torture, yet playing pattycake with someone who hates us with every fiber of their being won't work. I think water boarding should only be used in necessary times, but no other torture should be used.

Do you actually care about the lives of every citizen here or do you only care how our country looks to other countries? What's amazing to me is those who think we are hated as a result of events like this, and yet these guys in the middle east have hated what we stand for before Bush ever was in office. Yet for some reason illegals and legals flock here every day. Why would you immigrate to a country that everybody hates?

Leo and Lon
If we had tortured someone, you might have points, we didn't so you don't.

"you accept torturing arabs and muslims you accept torture of Americans. When taleban tortures American civilians or soldiers by using waterboarding, will you be as permissive and call it "Interrogation"? Or do you just enjoy causing pain to arabs and muslims?"

We made them uncomfortable, there was no torture. And we aren't targetting anyone simply beacuse they are Arab or Muslim. They were terrorists who had information on plots to kill lots of Americans. If, for example, we had in custody a member of one of those fabled "right wing" terrorists groups you all are worried about, and he had information that could help us thwart another Oklahoma City, I would have no problems submitting him to waterboarding.

I am worried about saving American lives. That is the bottom line.

Leo, your Christophobia is getting the best of you.

Taft
"Thank you too for your service. What do you think about the opinion on torturing when it comes to our guys being caught. If we do it then, they can? I know AQ doesn't care, and tortures anyway but what about the countries that signed the GC and what about upholding our own laws on torture. Laws are usually good things"

We didn't torture anyone. And as I said, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to terrorists. They are not POWs, they have no protected status.

We wouldn't "torture", as you say, members of foreign Militaries we capture. Captured Iraqi soldiers during the invasion were treated as POWs under the Conventions, because they were uniformed combatants.

The sad thing is, you can't tell the difference between a terrorist and a member of a Military, so why should we expect someone like you to be able to tell the difference between torture and interogation?

Give them bath

I have been reading all these stories about people accused of terrorists activities, being given a bath, even if they don’t want one. And it is called torture.

When you get stopped for running a red light, the cop makes you say things you don’t want to say.

When OJ did his nasty job, almost everyone said that his explanation was not true, but it is what he wanted to say, so he said it.

When a bunch of cops sit a criminal in a chair, and turn on the lights, the constitutional freedoms guaranteed to that person, is violated.

They keep talking about bringing the terrorists from Cuba, and turn them loose in the USA. I guess if they put them in Numb Jerk City, no one would notice.

But why are they in prison in Cuba in the first place? I’ll tell you, it is because their Constitutional rights are being violated.

Let get it straight, the First Amendment to our constitution says “Congress shall make no law … … abridging the freedom of speech, “ and in each and every case mentioned above, the freedom of speech of the person involved is violated.

Just because the people who are questioning the terrorists, the cop that stops you, and OJ’s script for a new movie, are not just what the questioner wants to hear, the talkers freedom to say what they want to say, is abridged. This has got to stop.

Everyone, including a criminal being questioned, a husband coming home late at night, must have freedom of speech.

Remember these examples. Lady to her friend, “When did you start smoking cigars?” response, “When my husband found a cigar stub in the ash tray next to the bed.” Man to his friend, “When did you start wearing a girdle? Man, “When my wife found one in the glove compartment.”

Just remember, the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech, and not one word is said about the truthfulness of that speech. They can say what they want, and no one can question what was said.

Exposing Our Tricks, Exposes Our Safety
Taft offers, "What do you think about the opinion on torturing when it comes to our guys being caught. If we do it then, they can?"

First off, we don't torture as the memos prove, we use techniques practiced on our own troops to trick people into thinking they are being tortured. The evidence is that our comrades were true to American values and merely tricked the enemy. Now, thanks to a hate mongering, self-aggrandizing President, the charade is no more. Our very tender moral underside has been exposed to our enemy, for his political gain.

As for rules of war, I have yet to hear of any actual combat limited by anything other than imagination and means. Do you really think war is card game with rules by Hoyle?

Lon
You don't have your facts right. The reason the claims of torture were being denied, was because no "torture" was being performed.

You see, the adults in the CIA and military interrogation units, did not orginally understand that Leftists call any discomfort experienced by our enemies: Torture. They were under the adult understanding of torture and wouldn't have considered that water-boarding someone for 30 seconds, then handing them a towel to wipe the water and snot from their face...would have been considered "torture".

And since the Left can't find instances of our gouging the eyes of prisoners, cutting their fingers off, burning them with cigarettes, electrically shocking them, etc. - they had to claim that "water-boarding" is torture so as to be able to accuse their own country of "torturing" prisoners.

It's as simple as that.

TORTURE
WHINE YOU LIBS!

jim
Did you have a point?

"But why are they in prison in Cuba in the first place? I’ll tell you, it is because their Constitutional rights are being violated"

No, it is because if they escape, they aren't running loose in America. Plus, puting them in our prisons would be idiotic, because they would just recruit while they are in there.

TAFT
WATCH GEORGE TILLER PERFORM ABORTION!

Baradiel
The Supreme Court said the GC covered all prisoners. That's good enough for me.

We do torture. Waterboarding. Method used by Khemer Rouge.

Stress positions used by Gestapo.

I think 4 people died in our hands while under torture.

Denise
I have to laugh, now you’re defending your remarks about Christ’s death being insignificant like the Bush administration is defending itself against torturing people. Anybody else see the irony?

“Don't fall into the trap that Liberals love to play... If a Christian sins, they claim he/she can't be a Christian.”

Liberals? What, there are no liberals who are also Christians? I didn’t say that because you favor torture, you can’t claim to be a Christian. I said no Christian would minimize the sacrifice Christ made when his life was cut short by a brutal death as “no big deal.” By definition, Christ’s death on the cross, instead of a natural death, creates the basis for gratitude to him on the part of Christians. Christ preached eternal salvation, putting his life in danger, but kept on preaching. At the time of his execution, Christ thought God had abandoned him, thereby creating enormous angst for him emotionally, as well as the obvious physical pain. This is the basis of the gratitude, as I understand it, that Christians owe Christ. His sacrifice is the Christian’s gain.

There are factual bases for dismissing someone’s claim to being a Christian. If you consider Christ’s death insignificant, that would undercut much of the basis of your faith in eternal salvation and Christ’s role in achieving it. Unless you consider yourself without sin. If you do, then I guess Christ’s death is irrelevant to you. It’s like the 65% of American Christians who think that it is possible to achieve eternal salvation without Jesus Christ. I’m sorry, but is simply not true, if you are genuinely a Christian. I’m not trying to be mean, but facts are facts.

“Trust me, some of the most devout Christians that I have ever met would be those most would think least likely; while, I have seen people proclaim their Christian superiority only to be caught in adulterous affairs.”

Or caught conducting torture maybe?

Joel-De Oppresso

Would Jesus approve of torture? Of course not. Even George Washington

It is our American tradition not to torture.

"Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution. "

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1217-30.htm

I defy anyone to find an example of General Lee oredering torture! One time, he could have, using our justification, have done it too. A Union commander was caught after an attempted raid on Atlanta, and some thought he's planed a burn it down and attack civilians. Lee was angry but asked Grant if this is what they had lowered themselves to?

It's incredible to me...
...that they continue gnash their teeth and rend their hair over "How Could They?!?"...

When the obvious question is "How Could They Not?"

http://www.e3gazette.com/2009/04/waterboarding-torture-and- not-letting.html

- MuscleDaddy

Perez Hilton
is a vile, vicious, visually repugnant, vengeful, verminous POS.

Liberals Enjoy Trashing America
terry offered, "And since the Left can't find instances of our gouging the eyes of prisoners, cutting their fingers off, burning them with cigarettes, electrically shocking them, etc. - they had to claim that "water-boarding" is torture so as to be able to accuse their own country of "torturing" prisoners."

Agreed.

Sorry about the
last post. Wrong thread.

Where is logic?
Thousands of our special forces soldiers go through waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques as part of their training. It is NOT torture!

It is unbelievable that there are people on this thread that think that any of these vile sociopathic islamofascists endured TORTURE!

Does it occur to any of you who make these ridiculous statements that those still held at Guantanamo are there because they are the worst of the worst. They are beyond any rehabilitation.They live on hate, hatred of us!They live to kill infidels.And STILL we treat them humanely.

The men KSM and Zabaydah, that you are so filled with compassion for, are responsible for over 3000 deaths. The way these 3000 plus people died was horrific beyond comprehension.Where is your compassion for your fellow citizens? Do you leave that for others like our brave military, and CIA?

Those people who went to work on Sept. 11,2001 were given no choices, were asked no questions, they were just coldly,inhumanely,and for no reason,SLAUGHTERED!

I believe that if KSM and Zabaydah had a choice of jumping out of a window on the 103rd. floor of tower 1 to escape rolling ,flaming jet fuel, or being waterboarded...,they would have begged for waterboarding!

Those of you on here who are bemoaning their "TORTURE" should be so ashamed of themselves.


Madoff - Obama -- What's The Difference?
Taft offers, "It is our American tradition not to torture."

So, what? Nothing has changed.

Bush, to protect America and his own peril, allowed the charade that we torture, even though it was just trickery. No one was harmed or tortured, but our enemies were well prepped for the magic act.

However, Obama, to promote himself and feed red meat to idiot Lefties, exposed the charade and America's tender, moral underside. Obama exposed our tricks and communicated to all that we are just playing on their fears, nothing more.

Bush put America, first, Obama put Obama, first.

Lefties Live In Hyperbolic Hysteria
Taft offers, "Stress positions used by Gestapo."

Don't forget parents, trainers and coaches!

Thanks To Obama, America Is Less Safe
LC offers, "I believe that if KSM and Zabaydah had a choice of jumping out of a window on the 103rd. floor of tower 1 to escape rolling ,flaming jet fuel, or being waterboarded...,they would have begged for waterboarding!"

Absolutely!

Now, thanks to Obama, they know that the intent is humane, so their need for caution has evaporated. Heck, they may even consider being captured as a bonus!

MM

You're first guy I've seen that thinks the Gestapo were pussies.

Daft
"Every schoolchild knows that Gen. George Washington made extraordinary efforts to protect America's civilian population from the ravages of war. Fewer Americans know that Revolutionary War leaders, including Washington and the Continental Congress, considered the decent treatment of enemy combatants to be one of the principal strategic preoccupations of the American Revolution."

Those were legitimate combatants, namely British Soldiers, Sailors and Marines. Not terriorists. You still can't seem to tell the difference between honorable men and these Al Qaida savages. Savages we didn't torture, but had information that could lead to saving American lives.

"I defy anyone to find an example of General Lee oredering torture! One time, he could have, using our justification, have done it too. A Union commander was caught after an attempted raid on Atlanta, and some thought he's planed a burn it down and attack civilians. Lee was angry but asked Grant if this is what they had lowered themselves to?"

Ok, again, we didn't torture anyone. If General Lee felt he needed to get information because civilian lives were in iminent danger, then he would have been more then welcome to make said Union Commander uncomfortable in interogation. He would have been wrong either way if it was done for retribution, and no other reason.

To A Lefty, Nonsense Is Good Argument
Taft offers, "You're first guy I've seen that thinks the Gestapo were pussies"

What on earth are you going on about? Do you have a point?

Baradiel
General Lee didn't need to torture anyone. All he had to to to find out what was going on was read the. Northern newspapers