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Thursday, March 19, 2009
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
Obama's Class War Budget vs. Your Income
by Terry Jeffrey
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President Obama met this week with the chairmen of the congressional budget committees and called for a bipartisan effort to "pass a budget that puts this nation on the road to lasting prosperity." But the fiscal 2010 budget he presented is a startling call to political class war.

It depicts America as populated by an aggrieved middle class exploited by an upper class luxuriating in ill-gotten gains.

"While middle-class families have been playing by the rules, living up to their responsibilities as neighbors and citizens, those at the commanding heights of our economy have not," says Obama's budget document. "There's nothing wrong with making money, but there is something wrong when we allow the playing field to be tilted so far in the favor of so few."

To fix this alleged problem, Obama's budget points -- like his famous sidewalk colloquy with "Joe the Plumber" -- to using the tax code to spread the wealth around.

"For the better part of three decades, a disproportionate share of the nation's wealth has been accumulated by the very wealthy," says the budget. "Yet, instead of using the tax code to lessen these increasing wage disparities, changes in the tax code over the past eight years exacerbated them."

As evidence of this, the Obama budget cites stagnation in real median household income.

"On top of that, this was the first economic recovery since World War II where real median household income did not rise above its previous peak," says the budget.

But is this an intellectually honest representation of the recent history of income growth and distribution in the United States? Have we seen wealth progressively concentrating in the hands of a few "for the better part of three decades?"

By carefully presenting a part of the truth, Obama's budget artfully obscures the whole truth.

The budget cites the Census Bureau as its source for "real median household income." So I looked to the Census Bureau for a fuller picture of trends in household income.

In August 2008, the Census Bureau published a report titled, "Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007." I called the bureau and was assured this was its latest report on real median household income and that Table A-1 in the report contains the definitive historical numbers of median household income as well as the percentage of the population that fell into each of nine annual-income brackets ranging from "Under $5,000" to "$100,000 and over."

All the figures in this Census Bureau table are in inflation-adjusted 2007 dollars.

The table shows that real median household income in the United States was $38,771 in 1967 and $50,233 in 2007. That means it jumped $11,462 in 40 years, or 29.56 percent.

But has income accumulated in the hands of the few at the expense of a growing underclass? Table A-1 shows the opposite: The percentage of American households in each of the upper two income brackets has increased, while the percentage of households in each of the lower seven income brackets has decreased

There simply are more "rich" households in America today and fewer "poor" households.

In 1967, only 5.4 percent of households were in the "$100,000 and over" income bracket (in inflation-adjusted 2007 dollars). In 2007, 20.2 percent were in that bracket -- making it now the most populated of all brackets.

One out of every five American households is "rich."

In 1967, only 7.7 percent of American households were in the second-highest bracket, earning between $75,000 and $99,999 per year. By 2007, 11.9 percent were in that bracket.

So in 1967, 13.1 percent of American households earned more than $75,000, and 86.9 percent earned less. In 2007, 32.1 percent of American households earned more than $75,000, and 67.9 percent earned less.

As a share of the population, wealthier people today are almost two-and-a-half times as numerous as they were when the hippie generation was celebrating its Summer of Love.

But what about Obama's claim that in the last growth cycle median household income never rose above its peak from the previous cycle? There is truth in this.

"Between 2006 and 2007, real median household income rose from $49,568 to $50,233 (Figure 1-Table 1) -- a level not statistically different from the 1999 pre-recession income peak," says the Census Bureau's report.

The Figure 1 referred to is a graph that shows the relationship between recessions and real median household income. Its lesson is simple: When the economy declines, household incomes decline. When the economy grows, household incomes grow. Mostly, our free economy has grown, so incomes have grown.

Obama's class-war budget is based on his belief that he can use the federal tax code to keep incomes down -- and still have the economy go up.

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About The Author

Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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Check Out Pg. 11 Of His Budget

Look at the chart that purportedly shows how wages have stagnated and that the rich have gotten richer while the poor have gotten poorer. Look closely at the names of the creators. Two French names, right? Yes, two FRENCH SOCIALISTS. If Obama is not a Socialist, then why the hell is he relying on socialist propaganda?

SOCIALISM HAS ALWAYS FAILED AND ALWAYS WILL. FIGHT THIS SOB.

tammy
ohmygod your side is loaded with a bunch of lunatics. Just go look at yourself in the mirror.

Stop The Insanity!

The Fed. Res. and the fed. govt. have tripled the amount of money in circulation in the last 6 months. Then, we have Scamulus, the mortgage bailout, the omnibus bill, and god help us, Mugabe's freakin $3.6T budget.

Now, today, the Fed announced:

1) It would buy $300bn worth of treasury bonds so as to lower mortgage rates, which hasn't been done since the inflationary period of the 1960s.

2) Another $750bn to buy toxic assets, which is on top of the $500bn already spent.

3) Up to another $1T for bank stabilization.

$2T for universal healthcare.

$2T for the stupid and useless cap-n-tax.

We have a national debt over $12bn.

Unfunded obligations for social security that are between $56T and $75T.

This in unsustainable.


Don't send in your tax check on the 15th. Ask for a payment plan. Yes, interest will accrue, but can be put off indefinitely. Will it prevent the f-ing insanity of Mugabe, Piglosi, Bawney, Dingy and Dud? No, but PROTEST anyway.


STFU Tammy! Talk about lunatics. My GOD, you guys take the cake. Besides, which side am I on anyway? I am a fiscally-conservative (Constitutionalist) Independent.

IMHO: The Feds have 3 Constitutional roles and that's it:

1) The national defense.

2) Interstate commerce, which would include securities sold electronically.

3) National disasters or epidemics.

Everything else should return to where the Founding Fathers' intended it should be... within the purview of the States and their powers.

As for bailouts and stimulus, I have been against every bailout and stimulus from GWB through Obama.

I hope that you like the fact that IL is going to raise your income taxes by 50%, keep your fingerprints on file for up to 7 years when you sell your house, and that the crooks (of both parties) in Washington are going to bankrupt the country.

The Stagnating Wages Canard
Even when the data is presented in such a way as to show declining real wages, it is inherently dishonest. This is because over the period being examined, more and more compensation has been paid in benefits. Total compensation, including benefits, has CONSISTENTLY INCREASED across EVERY income level. It's very much like the "shrinking middle class" rhetoric of a few years back which was true only if you ignore the fact that the only measures showing such shrinkage indicated it was because people were moving UP from the middle class.

All this envy-driven rhetoric about "fairness" overlloks the obvious points that, delusions notwithstanding, there has NEVER been any evidence that people making huge incomes (usually from being productive and creating jobs - those nasty people) is economically harmful and the evidence is universal that wealth redistribution methods are economically harful (across all income levels).

If you have the sheer audacty to mention actual facts though, you can always count on someone to make themselves look foolish saying things like "ohmygod. How crazy are you going to get before you give it up. If I were a conservative, I would flag your post as offensive. But as a liberal, all I can say is - well, I'm glad she's not on my side."

Fortunately, such demonstartions of intellectual prowess only serve to undermine the modern liberal case.

Obama is for Obama!!!
The crazy thing about any debate regarding Obama's budget, Stimulus package, etc is that Obama's trashing of the economy is ignored.
The Federal Government is literally printing money for distribution and planning to raise taxes on everyone.
Inflation taxes all of us and it will come when goods and services are more costly becasue the value of the dollar drops relative to other currencies....

Obama is not burning the midnight oil trying to slove our economic crisis. He is off campaigning on the Jay Leno show and at an NCAA basketball tournament venue.

He is using Liddy, the Federally appointed AIG CEO, as a whipping boy. The Obama boys want to hide what the Fed encouraged AIG to do. As lawmakers engage in another all-day grilling of a financial company CEO, the issues people should really be angry about have been obscured.

First off, AIG made payments it owed to 15 foreign banks with bailout money it received. That's right, U.S. taxpayer money went overseas.

Or how about that the top recipient of bailout money was Goldman Sachs (GS Quote - Cramer on GS - Stock Picks)? Remember, Liddy was a former Goldman Sachs board member. Former Treasury secretary Henry Paulsen was a former Goldman CEO. Current Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein also was among the Wall Street executives consulted before the government's AIG rescue.

Misplaced Outrage
If you add three zeros to the total amount of bonuses paid to AIG executives that have caused such outrage, the result is the approximate amount of Federal funds that have been pledged to the company. I suspect knowing the recipients of the billions of dollars of payments on Credit Default Swaps written by AIG would really bring on outrage. How many billions of taxpayer’s dollars have been paid to Goldman, the mother of so many of our government officials (like Paulson) overseeing this travesty? Will our outrage be one thousand times as great? We have been duped!


Marx's Ideological Grandson
Did Obama take economics at Harvard? And if he did, did the professor give him an A because of Affirmative Action programs?

By his actions the Anointed One indicates that he learned nothing new since reading Karl Marx's Das Kapital.

His attempt to redistribute wealth will stifle entrepreneurs and ensure that everyone is equally poor, except those in charge of command economies, like for example, the ruling classes in Russia and China.

Hey, those programs are working fine in Kenya, right?

"Pounding" on OUR DOOR ?

If the crap that Obama is trying to sell us every day is so aweseome<

WHY IS HE POUNDING ON OUR DOOR to have us buy it:

IF the product is so awesome, everyone would be lined up at his door as a "BUYER"

LIAR in Chief is just a sleazy used car salesman and he keeps selling his junk to the same useful idiots:

this nation enjoys a 33% illiteracy rate and EVERY OBAMA audience verifies that as a fact:

truth is where you find it
Yes the government is spending way too much; that's a separate argument.
No, the truly wealthy do not pay their fair share. Their gains over the last 30 years have been not through talent but manipulation. Don't take my word for it. Read "Perfectly Legal" about our tax system. Mr. Jeffrey obviously has not because he has no clue how badly he is being screwed. If you make between 50,000 and 500,000 a year, you have been paying through the nose for 30 years and will continue to do so. The truly wealthy will pretty much continue to get a free ride on your back.
You need to read something other than the usual Town Hall whining and get informed.

AMERICAN TAXPAYERS: BEWARE

Obama now believes that all taxpayers are rich.

Tax and spend is the Democrat's motto, and it has only just begun. If anyone thinks clean air and free medical care is cheap, wait until we start paying for it.

WHAT IS HOPE AND CHANGE DOING FOR YOU TODAY?

The $260,000 and over earners
are 7% if the tax paying public and already pay 62% of the personal fed. taxes collected.

They also pay state, sales, real estate, and local taxes, SS deductions and Medicare.

A person, or business, making $250,000 is not swimming in money today--altho' maybe before the Carter inflation in the early 70s, the money would have been a considerable sum.

Someone making 1/4 mill. with a child in college at a minimum, even at state schools, of $10,000 (without clothes, car, cell phone, and pizzas) is prob. borrowing to maintain a so-called middle-class status.

People making under $50,000 today almost pay no fed. taxes (altho' they pay the others mentioned), but it is NOT a good idea to constantly create more and more income levels that pay little to no fed taxes or receive huge tax credits and oppress success, as it is success that makes small businesses which employ the vast majority of US workers.

Well, now.
Everyine talks about the INCOME tax. talktalktalktalk
The really wealthy pay little or no INCOME tax, but they do like to spend spend spend.

When will "We, the People" stand up and force our "elected elite" to pass the Fair Tax? Then everyone would pay their "fair share" based on consumption, not their earning.
Its a great idea and a simple plan so DC would say no. Good and simple just don't work in the corrupt pit we call the federal governemnt.

Renny&Reba
It is so sad when people who live in a country, don't understand it's economics! Everyone pays taxes because every consumer purchase carries a tax. In point of fact,the poor pay more(%) in taxes because they are locked into consumption. People who make over $200,000.00,if they are smart,have reduced consumption. Why? Their budget is based on saving not maintaining. There is no "Class War". Most of those who earn large incomes are non-plussed by this discussion. If you need an issue,this ain't it!!

Dan
"Yes the government is spending way too much; that's a separate argument."

"No, the truly wealthy do not pay their fair share."

The share of taxes paid by the wealthiest Americans has NEVER been higher.

"Their gains over the last 30 years have been not through talent but manipulation."

David Cat Johnson is another liberal writer who believes that anecdotal evidence (some of which IS pretty maddening) demonstrates his contentions in the aggregate. As an interesting read and a jeremiad "Perfectly Legal" is a rousing success; as an objective, informative assessment of how the tax system operates as a whole, it is an unmitigated failure. Of course, that won't stop other leftists (James Galbraith) from praising the work because it says what they want you to believe.

You need to read something other than the usual liberal New-York-Times journalist (sic) book club rant and get informed.

Good article, and nice post Denise!
This arrogant POS in the WH, and that hag heading-up Congress have to go.

Politics, distraction and waste at a level we have not seen for some time now. We have people who are likely suffering from mental health issues running this country. Now *that* IS nuts!

My old Professor
It reminds me of an adage taught to me by one of my old professors. Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

gotta like the last point
Jeffreys is trying to show that Obama was not telling the truth when he said that wages have been stagnating. His final bit of evidence is that during the Bush years it is not true that incomes never rose above the pre-Bush levels. In fact they did by an insignificant amount.

Apparently this is supposed to show that wages have not been stagnating. This suggests that Jeffreys doesn't understand what stagnating means. Otherwise he would not provide evidence that under Bush wages stagnated.

It is also curious that he thinks that show that wages increased over the last 40 years shows that they increased over the last 30 years.

Of course the decade he is horning in to produce the improvements is the decade following the war on poverty. And yet that is the decade in which the growth occurred.

IT'S OVER FOLKS
THE NOBLE EXPERIMENT HAS FAILED

.....The Founders dream of a Constitutional Representative Republic is no more ...

.....There were many mileposts along the way ...the Civil War and Lincoln's power grab of Federal Government power ...TR's socialist views and "Trust Busting" ...1913 and the 16TH & 17TH Amendments and the Federal Reserve ...and then FDR's contempt for the Constitution and admiration of Soviet Communism ...

.....We have gone too far down the road of European Socialism to turn back now ...it's over folks .....COLOSSUS

fletch
here we go again. you claim that the extra benefits middle class workers receive mitigate the losses in real median family income. i would just like to know what "extra" benefits the average american worker has received in the last 10 years or so that would back up your claim.

Dumb!
First off, 100,000 is not "rich" and the tax increase in for families making 250,000 or more. Second, 75,000 in 1967 was a hell of a lot more than it is today. I don't see the comparison. It's like saying that in 1955 candy cost a nickle so if you have a nickle today you can buy some candy. Well we all know you can't buy sh*t for a nickle anymore. 75,000-100,000 is solid middle class these days. I'm in the 100,000 range and there isn't a week that goes by that I feel "rich." I pay more for daycare than I do my house. I have a budget that has to be adhered to or things get turned off real quick. This guy is stupid. This whole article is a stretch of the imagination. I wish people would stick to real issues instead of conjuring up Obama lied about some small insignificant thing for weeks on end, stupid.

"Class war", huh?
Isn't it the conservatives who are always talking about "Volvo-driving, latte-drinking, elitist liberals"? Wasn't it the conservatives who embraced "Joe the plumber" (who wasn't a plumber and whose name wasn't Joe)? Who's trying to start a Class War? Liberals just talk in terms of facts and figures.

class warfare
When the top wage earners in this country (top 5%)are paying almost 80% or more of all the taxes collected, that is class warfare. It pits those individuals (and for some reason people forget that most family owned small businesses fit in this calssification) against the vast majority of the population who ask for more government services without having to pay much for them. THAT is pitting one class against another. We should all (in the words of our new leader) share in the sacrifice.

All revolt comes from Middle Class
So if you want to prevent revolt, you eliminate the middle class. And the best way of eliminating it is to tax it to death. Those who are on the high end can move into the rich class, if they are able, while everyone else moves to the poor class, unable to pay for anything except food and shelter. Then you have little to worry about.

It always amuses me when politicians like Oblama say they want to tax the rich. They want to tax themselves? Yeah, right! I'll believe that when the sun starts rising in the west. They either exempt themselves or simply ignore paying the tax with the knowledge that they won't be investigated by their IRS employees.

If Oblama really pays the tax he wants every "rich" person to pay, he wouldn't be making $4 million a year. He'd be lucky to make $1 million after taxes. And that wouldn't be fair, right?

killer wrong as usual
“It is so sad when people who live in a country, don't understand it's economics.”

Which makes you among the saddest.

“In point of fact,the poor pay more(%) in taxes because they are locked into consumption.”

In point of ACTUAL fact, the American tax system is STILL substantially progressive (that is, the wealthier one is the greater the percentage paid) even when payroll taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes and fees are ALL included. It isn’t a straight line, and there is a small dip after $500K or so, but then it resumes its upward march.

But then facts have never been of any interest to you, killer, so why bother?

An Economist's Comments
Not long ago, I read a comment by an economist. I can't remember his name, sorry. He stated that if every dollar rich people make over $50,000 a year was 100% taxed, it would support the government for 8 days. His point was that almost all the taxes the government depends upon comes from the middle class who make between $30,000 and $80,000 a year.

So who does your government consider as "rich"?

Tammy
How enlightening your posts are "OMG you're crazy" concise and to the point, never mind being being devoid of facts and merely smearing a person without any substantive application of logic as to why this person is so reprehensible.
Here's reprehensible; we have a charter (the Constitution) granting certain parties (the Federal government) to act on behalf of others (the States [note,not individuals])and yet the former takes it upon themselves to use their offices to displace the latter and show no remorse concerning their illegal acts and rather than benefiting the grantees act to the detriment of the states, and the individuals which are under the purview of the states, and you rally behind these usurpers and thieves with no remorse, and probably congratulate yourself (perversely) on what a good person you are. Honestly, do you care that laws are being violated, that property is being illegally taken, that 50 million innocent have been murdered, that people's ability to speak freely is fought against, and that the money of those very people is being used against them to support it?

wade
You don't understand inflation adjusted?

"Democracy isn't working!"
I pointed out the INCONTRAVERTABLE FACT a few years ago that the whole GoreBull$h1t Warming kookery has ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING to do with anything haveing to do with science (science fiction, maybe?), but instead was ONLY about earning junk scientists big bucks and handing over more power to the government. Now one of the leading "OMYGOD! WE'RE ALL GONNA FALL INTO THE SUN AND DIE UNLESS EVERYONE GIMES ME ALL YOUR MONEY AND HANDS ALL POWER OVER TO THE GOVERNMENT!!!" kooks, NASA's James Hansen, has let slip their ACTUAL motives. Hansen is now on record claiming that he hates democracy, and that he thinks "it isn't working". Apparently, he just thinks that Nazi fascism should just be imposed by government decree, and everyone who doesn't like it ought to be sent to the gas chamber.

Yeah, as if none of us saw that coming!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/mar/18/nasa-climate- change-james-hansen

roy
"here we go again."

Yeah, one would figure that you'd grasp the subject by now.

"you claim that the extra benefits middle class workers receive mitigate the losses in real median family income."

I point out that, according to the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (which is the source for ALL of this data), while real wages have declined, total compensation which includes benefits) has steadily increased in real terms. Perhaps that means that the employer raised your co-pay from $15 to $20 and raised the annual cost to you by $50 bucks BUT paid an additional $500 annually to cover the increased cost of health care. All the ranting about how you don't see the change (as if you were a reliable witness) doesn't change the fact that employes have increased their spending on employee benefits at a rate faster than the increase in the costs (which have been a major driver in the inflation rate so it is intellectually dishonest to exclude them from the calculation).

I have pointed you repeatedly to the source of the data; I have provided links to discussions of the very point by other economists. My "claim" - translated a factual representation of the data - is MORE than sufficiently backed up. Your inability to a) grasp the issues or b) follow links and directions or c) do some basic research does not undermine MY integrty in any way.

wade
"Dumb"

Yes the mistake you made is enormous.

"Second, 75,000 in 1967 was a hell of a lot more than it is today. I don't see the comparison. It's like saying that in 1955 candy cost a nickle so if you have a nickle today you can buy some candy."

wade, please try t grasp the concept of REAL wages - that is, wages ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION. The change in aggregate prices HAVE ALREADY BEEN ACCOUNTED FOR in the discussion so arguing about the failure to mention the difference in circumstances over time is factually worng.

I wish people would grasp the most basic economic concepts before complaining that someone is "dumb" while demonstrating that they haven't a clue what is being discussed.

Fletch
I am beginning to get you and Dr. Sowell mixed up. Both of you express the obvious with no real intellectual value being imparted. Tell your fellow citizens where we are and what is the best approach. You mentioned "Benefits" and just paid lip service. Yes benefits have increased but Americans are still too unsophisticated to properly employ said benefits. Example; The auto industry failed to see the future and came into it fully unprepared. Unions let workers down,while worker ignorance served to retard their growth. Forbes gives their employees "Health Accounts". At the end of the year,any money left in those accounts are considered to be a raise. Not a "Bonus",very important. It is a great way to accelerate the growth of worker wealth. The only problem is,it should have been done in 1980? You have no "Clue" about the power of Capitalism or how to utilize it. You are a "Fraud" just like Dr. Sowell!

hail to the chief
Obama is snow jobbing America. We have never had it so good. Two and three car households,Ipods,computers, cell phones,flat screen tv,plasma tv's,Cancun vacations FOR SPRING BREAKERS/ Where the hell is this money coming from? Have you seen college football games every Saturday? 100,000 people.Professional football,basketball,hockey. Stands are full. Where is the money coming from? All these fans are wealthy? Baloney. Obama and his team are using ther oldbait and switch. Get ready for the tax increase.

corrections
Having looked at the charts on the census data it appears I was a bit unfair on one point and a bit too fair to Jeffreys on another.

Not all of the gain in income came during the decade after the War on Poverty, although that was the best decade going peak to peak. The decade before Obama's comment saw income increase $5,000 per household, in the Reagan years about $3,000 and under Clinton about $4,000. Under Bush about -$400.

That gets at the other point where I was too fair to Jeffreys. Obama's claim that we have never regained the Clinton peak turns out to be true. The comparison that Jeffreys is making takes the Clinton figure after it has declined somewhat from its peak and compares it to what turns out to be the peak value under Bush. So on that claim Obama is right and Jeffreys is not only missing what stagnation means, he is saying Obama said something false by misrepresenting the point of comparison.

Denise
Please see your Psychiatrist,immediately. A Socialist has as much of a chance of being "Right" as anyone else. I see your "Hatred" has caused you to abandon "Logic". It is always telling when people reveal their own lack of intellect. If you have "Facts", that will refute the French, then let "US" have them. Or you can put the Shut to the Up! PLEASE.. Want Ad; Idiots Needed...

WEIMAR!
The Fed. Res. and the fed. govt. have tripled the amount of money in circulation in the last 6 months. Then, we have Scamulus, the mortgage bailout, the omnibus bill, and god help us, Mugabe's freakin $3.6T budget.

Yesterday, the Fed announced:

1) It would buy $300bn worth of treasury bonds so as to lower mortgage rates, which hasn't been done since the inflationary period of the 1960s.

2) Another $750bn to buy toxic assets, which is on top of the $500bn already spent.

3) Up to another $1T for bank stabilization.

$2T for universal healthcare.

$2T for the stupid and useless cap-n-tax.

We have a national debt over $12bn.

Unfunded obligations for social security that are between $56T and $75T.

The price of a barrel of oil is up nearly $10 in the last month and gold has skyrocketed because commodities are a hedge against the insane fiscal and monetary policies of Washington.

Please write your representatives and tell them to stop the spending immediately. The Fed is PRINTING upwards of another trillion dollars. Their goal of decreasing interest rates is not considered feasible, as evidenced by the lack of support by the markets. The Govt. is trying to finance the debt, which has NEVER succeeded.

Currently, we are in a deflationary cycle. If the Fed’s latest attempt fails, and make no mistake about it... they used every last tool they have, we are heading into a depression. They must stop the spending or we are looking at the Great Depression all over again. Spending printed Monopoly money will not correct the situation.

Dust off the wheelbarrow because Mugabe is leading us into the United Socialist States of Zimbabwe.


F Off killer! When has a Socialist EVER been right, fool?

thanks for the complement, killer
"I am beginning to get you and Dr. Sowell mixed up."

Thanks for the complement. Sowell does an excellent job of imparting economic wisdom, almost invariably makinmg points that are far beyond you.

"Tell your fellow citizens where we are and what is the best approach."

We are suffering through the effects of government economic failures (loose money, excess spending, Fannie/Freddie creating an irrational market, socialization of business activities, fostering uncertainty through interference in the marketplace) and the solution can be stated in four simple words: LET THE MARKET WORK.

"Yes benefits have increased but Americans are still too unsophisticated to properly employ said benefits."

Don't project your own failings upon everyone else.

"The auto industry..."

...has been subject to too much interference by government (not to mention organized labor). The turn in the economy (caused by government failure) has hit an industry already made vulnerable particularly hard. If they cannot compete, the market has a soultion for that. Bailouts are more costly than that.

I could go into further detail but the obvious point is that, logically, your rambling assertion - even if it weren't such an isolated case - does not by any stretch of the imagination, support your initial premise.

Face it killer, you have no "Clue" about the power of Capitalism and are the real "Fraud", as is obviou to eeryone but you, apparently.

Now, humor from killer
"Please see your Psychiatrist,immediately."

Why should she? Yours does not appear to be helping you.

"A Socialist has as much of a chance of being 'Right' as anyone else."

What a dimwitted comment! The statement is ridiculous BY DEFINITION. Certainly, a socialist can be as right as anyone else in reciting baseball scores or counting pennies, though even that is suspect (as I'll get to in a moment). But, BY DEFINITION, a socialist believes there is an benefit from govrnment intervention into the economy. That precludes the socialist from being "right" in an entire field of discourse and, since, the position is so absurd on its face, it is that much less likely that the socialist will be able to grasp other subjects/tasks correctly - even counting those pennies. THAT is logic - a basic premise support by sequential presentation of supporting information - something your rants have never resembled, but, hey, thanks for playing!

Jeffrey, F1etch, Denise & Others
There is a lot of misleading being done here buy a variety of people. Jeffrey's numbers don't tell us anything about income inequality. The number of people making over 100,00o doesn't tell us much because incomes did grow between 1967 and 2000 although not much since. The percentage of all income controlled by the top 20 did increase from about 44% in 1967 to about 50% now. For the bottom 20% it decreased from about 4.3% to about 3.3% now. That is increasing income inequality.

F1etch, your statement about the rich paying a higher portion of the tax than ever is true but misleading because they make more of the income that any time in the last 50 years. What is more relevant is, do they pay a higher percentage of their income and the answer is no.

Denise, you should really learn what socialism is before throwing the term around so loosely. Most of our economy is privately controlled and will continue to be under Obama.


JPH
"Jeffrey's numbers don't tell us anything about income inequality."

They don't say aything about the milage on his Volvo either. From an economic standpoint, it is of no relevance whatsoever.

"The number of people making over 100,00o doesn't tell us much because incomes did grow between 1967 and 2000 although not much since."

Actually, real wages declined steadily since 1964 and actually firrmed up in recent years (again, real total compensation has consistently increased). As it happens, the number of people making more than $100,000 (adjusted for inflation) has increaed at a pace faster than poulation growth.

"The percentage of all income controlled by the top 20 did increase from about 44% in 1967 to about 50% now. For the bottom 20% it decreased from about 4.3% to about 3.3% now. That is increasing income inequality."

And the percentage of taxes paid by the top quintine increased dramatcally (from 18% in 1981 to 28% by 1988. Today the top FIVE percent pay more than 28% of the taxes. Still, income inequality is not an economic argument - it's all about envy, particularly the proportion of taxes paid by the wealth is increasing at a pace faster than the increase in wealth share. That is the relevant point.

"Denise, you should really learn what socialism is before throwing the term around so loosely."

You should consider your own advice. Socialism is relative (communism is the total elimination of private control). Obama has massively increased the interference in the economy and has reduced the sphere of the unhindered free market. That, BY DEFINITION, is the adoption of socialism.

JPH

Idiot, I am fully aware of what socialism is and is not. "Privately-owned"? Like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Like AIG, of which the govt. owns 80%? Citi & BOA, into which the govt. keeps pumping money? The Big 3, which (GM, in particular) have gotten billions and are on the verge of filing for Ch. 11? All of these have one thing in common... governmental intervention and more and more governmental ownership.

I don't have to throw the term "socialist" around loosely relative to the two economists that designed the chart on pg. 11 of Mugabe's budget. They are French Socialists. They were the economics advisors for the Socialist candidate for President in France's last election.

I got MY info. from the WSJ and my sister, who lives in France.

You need to learn how socialism works and how it creeps into otherwise capitalistic economies.

Please enlighten us as to why the President of the United States of America, which (last I looked) is supposed to be a capitalist country with free enterprise, is relying on economic data that is based on SOCIALIST PRINCIPLES. Please cite examples of successful, socialist economies, i.e., economies that are not stagnant, have low unemployment, etc., and have low ratios of social spending to GDP.

C'mon, professor, teach this economics and finance major from Harvard, with a MBA from LSE, and a law degree from G'town, all about socialism and its "successful" economic theories.

Jeffrey
"It depicts America as populated by an aggrieved middle class exploited by an upper class luxuriating in ill-gotten gains. "

*****
And that would be correct.

You can take any set of figures you want and make them look a reality you want to believe in. Middle class people know what their buying power was and now is, middle class people know what is happening to jobs, middle class knows what is happening to the medical insurance. Do I need to go on. And for
whatever the middle class knows, the poor
class knows is it even more.

Madoff, Enron, World Comm, exorbitant CEO
salaries and payouts to CEO's of STOCK MARKET
companies are not a figment of our imagination. We have money in those stock
market companies, and we are being cheated
of what might have been profit if the CEO's
actually felt responsible to us. But they
never did. They sat on each others' boards
and granted each other perks that should make
a normal person puke in disgust.

The people in this country are smarter than
you give them credit for. They at least know
when they have been had. They also know, that
even within a democracy, or should I say particularly within a democracy, this doesn't
need to be. We do not need to cater to or
put up with the evil within our borders.

Unfortunately those suffering in other countries because of our greed don't have the
luxury of kicking our rascals out.

And, Tammy

At the rate that the Fed is printing money, the middle class and the poor are going to know it even more. Assuming for the sake of argument that their "buying power" is lower than it was in decades past, pray tell, what do you think will happen when inflation sets in as a result of the enormous amount of currency in circulation? There has never been an example in history where printing money to finance debt has not resulted in runaway inflation.

Yesterday alone, the Fed's injection of Monopoly money into the system made China $700bn richer while it made us poorer. How will the middle class and the poor pay for the inflated Chinese products that they love?

fletch
thats it? thats all you got? the employers share of health care benefits? i guess we just didn't know how lucky we were huh lol? a lot of companies balanced that expense just by dropping their defined benefit pension plan. oh and those health care expense accounts that take money out of your check every week but if you don't use it you lose it. and then you got the wal mart types that makes health care so expensive that 30 per cent of their workers kids are on medicaid. yeah we never had it so good lol.







KILLER-POOR BOY, IT AIN'T JUST ECONOMICS
It's the government tariff on everything. Everyone pays taxes and it is not just the poor because they are consumers,'ole boy. They don't have to be big consumers either. Read this:

Actual 'Letter to the Editor' from the February 5th edition of the
Wichita Falls, Texas Times Record News...

Dear IRS

I am sorry to inform you that I will not be able to pay
taxes owed April 15, but all is not lost.

I have paid these taxes: accounts receivable tax, building
permit tax, CDL tax, cigarette tax, corporate income tax,
dog license tax, federal income tax, unemployment tax,
gasoline tax, hunting license tax, fishing license tax,
waterfowl stamp tax, inheritance tax, inventory tax, liquor
tax, luxury tax, Medicare tax, city, school and county property tax (up 33 percent last 4 years), real estate tax,
social security tax, road usage tax, toll road tax, state and city sales tax, recreational vehicle tax, state franchise tax, state excise tax, telephone federal state and local surcharge tax,
telephone minimum usage surcharge tax, telephone state and local tax, utility tax, vehicle license registration tax,
capitol gains tax, lease severance tax, oil and gas assessment tax, Colorado property tax, Texas, Colorado,
Wyoming, Oklahoma and New Mexico sales tax, and many more that I can't recall but I have run out of space and > money.

When you do not receive my check April 15, just know that it is an honest mistake. Please treat me the same way you treated Congressmen Charles Rangle, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and ex-Congressman Tom Dashelle and, of course, your boss Timothy Geithner. No penalties and no interest.

P.S. I will make at least a partial payment as soon as I get my stimulus check.
Ed Barnett



fletch
why don't you just come out and say you are a corporate shill and be done with it? i mean its pretty obvious anyway.

Hey guys--don't bother with the trolls
like Tammy. They simply have their minds made up and will try and refute facts with BS and rhetoric. Most of the posters here already know what you are trying to tell the libtards. You are wasting energy as these people are worse than useful idiots. They have severe learning disabilities---and I'm quite serious about that statement. Wasn't it yesterday that Tammy or one of her fellow trolls said "I am not your pupil"? The fact is life is a continuous learning experience and one who cannot and will not even try to learn is one who will become mired in their own misery. They don't deserve "saving" them from their own ignorance. We will win this war of ideology and principle and, like it or not, these dummies will benefit from our efforts though they will never thank you or acknowledge that you were right all along.

Hey, where is Dr. Ditz? Haven't checked it out today--- has he posted that the stats cited in the article are all "lies" yet? Actually who gives a rats a$$!

THOMAS PAINE & THE SECOND REVOLUTION

Check out this web-site. I received it from the person who is organizing the April 15th Tea Parties in our city. It is a must TO WATCH for those who care about our country. We are not alone.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeYscnFpEyA&feature=channel_ page




Wade:
Read the article again carefully. The numbers are adjusted for inflation so your statement that you can't buy what you could in 1967 is pretty much thrown out the window.

poor roy
"thats it? thats all you got?"

Yes, roy, that's all I've got: sound economic data, actual facts, nearly 30 years of economic study, simple logic and the ability to reason. It is delusional to beleive you've won the argument when you have none of these on your side and all you can come back with is "lol" or "I guess we just didn't know how lucky we were".

"a lot of companies balanced that expense just by dropping their defined benefit pension plan."

This inability to follow simple logic pervades ALL of yor arguments. When faced with the fact that total benefits have materially increased, you demand an example. I give one. You respond that it was offset by a drop in another benefit. Logically, THE ESTABLISHED FACT that total benefits increased renders a presumed (and purely anecdotal) reduction elsewhere in another BENEFIT useless as an argument in this discussion.

"and those health care expense accounts that take money out of your check every week but if you don't use it you lose it."

Another logical failure. THAT is not a benefits expense to the employer (so has no bearing on the argument). That is a GOVERNMENT CREATED account that allows the individual to defer taxation on some portion of their ALREADY RECEIVED earnings on the condition that THE GOVERNMENT gets it if you don't use it. Do you get some sort of masochistic thrill demonstrating such ignorance?

"...and then you got the wal mart types that makes health care so expensive that 30 per cent of their workers kids are on medicaid."

THAT claim was discredited 5 seconds after it was made. Wal-Mart offers health insurance to ALL of its employees. About 5% are on Medicaid, about 27% of their children are on Medicaid (and that proportion says more about the recipients than Wal-Mart). BOTH figures are comparable to NATIONAL AVERAGES. 36% of children of retail workers are on Medicaid.

INCOME INEQUALITY
JPH concerning income inequality, please remind me which god sent us his divine message that all people are supposed to earn the same amount. Also, income is not "controlled", it is earned. You attempt to imply that there is a predetermined amount of wealth which cannot be exceeded, and that to have more of this is wrong. Well please enlighten us all with exactly what this amount is.You have also excluded the possibility of other peoples failures contributing to their financial status. You have allowed yourself to be given to foolishness and this is manifested in your foolish statements.

One last for roy
"why don't you just come out and say you are a corporate shill and be done with it?"

Because I am not. I am a respected economist who and researcher who has the facts on his side. You, on the other hand, no longer warrant the expenditure of any more valuable time. Go back to your taling points, factual inaccuracies and inane retorts. I've git better things to do.

AIG Tax Bill Defeated

100 Congressman, who originally voted for the measure changed their votes and voted AGAINST it.

Denise
When libs start talking about printing more money to pay of the debt, I always like to use the country of Zimbabwe as an example of what can happen when you print to much money. I haven't checked on it lately but the last I heard it was around %100,000 and still climbing. The Zimbabwean dollar is so worthless that even 1 million Zimbabwe dollars is less than 1 U.S. Dollar. I'm hoping that Obama is not taking a page out of Mugabes playbook. If he does, we won't have enough trees to make all the Monopoly money we'll need.

F1etch
I posted an earlier response but it seems to have disappeared.

This economic warfare argument is ridiculous. One could plausebly make the argument that the well-to-do have been waging economic and political warfare on the less-well-off since over the last 30 years the portion of income earned by top 20% has increased significantly while that of the bottpom 40% has decreased. In 1975 the top 20% of wage earners received 43% of all income and the bottom 20% received 4.3%. In 2007 the top earners received 49.7 and the bottom 20% received 3.4% of the income. That represents increasing inequality which is an factual bit of economic data. You assertions to the contrary is your ideology speaking. When Obama asked those who have most benefited from the econoimy to pay more that hardly seems like class warfare. The marginal tax rates on the wealthiest were actually higher in the 50's and and then lowered in the 1980's. By the way we had significant growth then when we had theose higher marginal rates too.

Please document you statement that from 1964 real income declined but then stabalized recently. That statement is counter-factual. The census data shows that during the 70's, 80's and 90's incomes increased and then stagnated since 2000.

Denise!
"100 Congressman, who originally voted for the measure changed their votes and voted AGAINST it."

Do you think Kerry and his pals thought they were votes on the war?

Denise
When you start your response by calling names I wonder if you graduated from primary school. It is not a particularly intelligent response.

I know very well how socialism works. Our economy is overwhelmingly a free-market one and Obama's proposals only marginally change that. Overheated rhetoric only suggests an absence of real knowledge about the economy and how it works. Does the government make rules about how it market should work? Yes!
But that doesn't make it socialist. Could , for example, the market as we know it exist without the government granting limited liability to corporations? No! That is just an example of one of the many way in which government is essential to the functioning of an efficient capitalist economy.
Charges of socialism whenever you disagree with policy proposals are useless to intelligent discussion about the direction of the country. Now do you have any mature responses?

JPH
The notion that the rich have engaged in warfare against the poor is counter-factual. That the portion of income earned by the wealthiest has increased is due to the open-ended nature of success. The fact percentage of taxes paid by the wealthy has increased MUCH faster than the percentage of income earned. While the pecentage of income paid in taxes has fallen, the same is true for the "poor" whose rates have fallen farther.

"That represents increasing inequality which is an factual bit of economic data."

I did not dispue irrelevant data. I pointed out that while success has been good to people, the share of taxes on such people has risen even farther.

"The marginal tax rates on the wealthiest were actually higher in the 50's and and then lowered in the 1980's."

Not only doesn't that address the amount of taxes actually paid, it completely ignores that the threshold for that top rate in the 50s was, in real terms, aboyu $1.4 million and Obama is looking at levels below $250,000.

"By the way we had significant growth then when we had theose higher marginal rates too."

To the extent that that is true, it is only so BECAUSE income had to be so much higher before those rates kicked in. Nevertheless, the economic success of th 1950s (with two recessions and average GDP growth at about 0.5%) is pure mythology.

"Please document you statement that from 1964 real income declined but then stabalized recently."

First, grasp the difference between household income and wages and compensation (which we have been discussing). The factual data is readily avaiable from the Bureau of Labor Statistcs as is the data demonstrating that total real compensation has consistently increased. I posted links to discussions of these very points a couple of days back. There are plenty easily located online if you'd care to actually check.

Yup
"Could , for example, the market as we know it exist without the government granting limited liability to corporations?"

Absolutely. Unequivocally. Without question. With economic certainty.

merry colin
i don't know where you have been. you have already lost the war of ideology. hence all the crying on here.

JPH
" Our economy is overwhelmingly a free-market one". Really? So minimum government intervention is what we have? OK, I'll just ignore the Federal Reserve and the market interference of imposed, not to mention unconstitutional, rates, imposed hiring practices, imposed wages, imposed free services (think walking into an emergency room) that are bankrupting hospitals in California, bullying practices such as the CRA, unconstitutional government supported businesses such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, subsidized businesses,price setting on agriculture,set aside contracts favoring certain created classes etc., etc. No, that's not socialist at all, I mean after all a person still gets to have their name on their business, not much say, but hooray! they still "own" it.

fletch
you are lost in your own fantasy world. you want your theories to be right. so much that you make ridiculous claims like the drop in median family income is because the companies put it into benefits. anyone with a job knows you are trying to blow smoke. your theories have been discredited by history and at the polls. sure, you might be respected by your boss. thats what he wants to hear. but anybody who's been working out in the real world for the last 10 years or so knows you are full of shiite. my advice is to stop listening to rush, pull your head out of your behind, and come up for air once in a while. you'll enjoy the view a little more too. oh, lol.

My dear little ROY
I haven't lost anything. I haven't yet begun to fight! Just watch out darlin' 'cause its a comin'!

F1etch
"Absolutely. Unequivocally. Without question. With economic certainty."

And how is it that you know this? The fact that you assert this with certainty given that it cannot be empirically proven says that it is ideology talking. Only ideologues assert such things with the degree of certainty that you have.

Corporations would have difficulty raising capital and individual investors would be reluctant to invest if they were liable for every action of the corporation. We might have an economy but it would have to be a small scale one and most likely would not have generated the wealth that our modern market society has.

On your earlier post. I was talking about household income and you were talking about wages. When discussing income inequality it is usually household income that is relevant.

Your are right that wages have stagnated and that household income has risen because of the increase in two wage earning households.

Lenard
There are societies where they have none of the things you suggest. They are called "third world countries."

Where does you ideal society exist apart from the third world?

merry colin
ok if you say so lol. i won't lose any sleep over it though. you mind? i mean how hard can you all throw those tea bags anyway?

F1etch
You said

"That the portion of income earned by the wealthiest has increased is due to the open-ended nature of success."

Are you sure that you want to make that statement in light of the bonus scandal where over recent years there was no relationship between corporate performance and the bonuses granted. Notice I said granted not earned.

jph
lenards ideal society is called a banana republic i believe. get him and fletch together and the us would be a crony capitalist banana republic with nuclear weapons. oh wait. thats what we are. now i know why i voted for obama lol.

JPH
Typical leftist avoidance mechanism employed in your response; change the subject. I can do that also, and point to many factors for the state of the these "3rd world" countries, but if you decide to man up, try responding to what I actually said. De facto socialism is still socialism.

The Obama Deception / A FILM
Here are the links to the NEW Alex Jones Film entitled THE OBAMA DECEPTION.

Alex Jones is NOT a Republican or a Democrat – HE is a PATRIOT.

It provides a background on how the Federal Reserve Bank has bankrupted America.

It explains the NWO, Bliderbergs, Tri-Lateral Commission, and CFR, and how they are controlling America.

The Film focuses on Obama’s deception a great deal in clips 9-12.

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWgu1W5v-OA&feature=related

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtwxvVzqPQ&feature=related

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKdEmUb_0zs&feature=related

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv6GWsRj4HY&feature=related

5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp8FaoqJfvs&feature=related

6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFzE21pN-wM&feature=related

7) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8JSK9v5gqY&feature=related

8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG8pvf5knCs&feature=related

9) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmrjkjM6P94&feature=related

10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUrAq_7UZMA&feature=related

11) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x-6ag9sVTQ&feature=related

12) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlIG7wdegT8&feature=related

You must understand that Obama is NOT ONLY a continuation of Bush Policies …
He is an EXPANSION of BUSH POLICIES.

WATCH AND LEARN.

Lenard
So you did not understand my point. Neither do you know anything about real socialism or you would not use the term so glibly.

An effectively functioning capitalist economy requires regulation as the recent Wall Street fiasco should illustrate to anyone but ideologues. What would happen to us if there were no FDA for example. You would have no confidence on the food market, nor could you trust that any drug that you took was not counterfeit or that it was safe. If some free-market entrepreneur takes advantage of you, to whom do you go for recourse and to what rules do you appeal?

Most of the people who say they want government out of everything have no idea of the ramification of such a stance.

So if you want a society with none of the "evils" you spell our perhaps you should go to Guinea for awhile.

I gather that you have no real world example of the kind of Darwinian utopia that you think would exist without government. I would like to hear of such a place where life is much better than Guinea.

That's how
"And how is it that you know [that the economy would be just fine in thabsence of corporate limited liability]?"

Maybe because that position is completely supported by both economics, history and common sense. The joining together into groups to engage in productive business activities long preceded (and continues successfully without such protection) the grant of limited liability. Put simply, my statement has ALREADY been "empirically proven". The corporate nature of accounting for liability risk in the marketplace is but one possible solution; insurance is a market-based solution that not only works but retains market incentives that prevent corporate fraud and other counter-productive activities.

Here are some further words on the subject.

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/004518.html

http://blog.mises.org/archives/005679.asp

http://mises.org/Community/blogs/tokyotom/archive/2009/02/2 6/the-curse-of-limited-liability-wsj-com-executives-traders -of-big-financial-corporations-generate-risky-businesss-whi le-smaller-partnerships-are-much-more-risk-averse.aspx


"I was talking about household income and you were talking about wages. When discussing income inequality it is usually household income that is relevant."

You interjected yourself into a discussion that was already underway. In the context of discussion, though, wages are the more usemful measure since household income is subject to unrealted demographic factors such as housefold size and wage-earner identification.

Nevertheless, the absurd argument that the system has been rigged for the rich at the expense of the poor does not survive scrutiny using the only relevant measure - the relative change in incomes for the rich IN RELATION to the relative change in the overall tax burden - which ahs fallen much more heavily up the scale.

worth
sheepdog Location: UT
"I haven't checked on it lately but the last I heard it was around %100,000 and still climbing. The Zimbabwean dollar is so worthless that even 1 million Zimbabwe dollars is less than 1 U.S. Dollar. I'm hoping that Obama is not taking a page out of Mugabes playbook. If he does, we won't have enough trees to make all the Monopoly money we'll need."

Look on the bright side. A Zimbabwean dollar will be worth 1 U.S. Dollar again :)

Sigh
"Are you sure that you want to make that statement in light of the bonus scandal where over recent years there was no relationship between corporate performance and the bonuses granted. Notice I said granted not earned."

Well, gee, maybe if a) such scandals were anything but microscopic in the economy as a whole and/or b) it had actually been DEMONSTRATED that the individuals receiving bonuses at AIG did not "earn" them (which is unequivocally not the case), then, perhaps, I wouldn't find that partciular response to an entirely valid point so monumentally ridiculous.

roy opines
"lenards ideal society is called a banana republic i believe. get him and fletch together and the us would be a crony capitalist banana republic with nuclear weapons. oh wait. thats what we are. now i know why i voted for obama lol.

No the real reason you voted for obama is because your head is so far up your derrier that it is unlikely that you'll ever have another point of view.

jph
In your mind based on your presumptive parameters you made a point. I have not at any time endorsed a free for all type market, yet you have attributed such a philosophy to me. Really none of the aspects of government interference that I named are really regulation with the intent of promoting a system that enables us to have checks against fraud or such, but are in place to attempt to direct the flow of wealth away from certain segments of the people towards others, I can only again say that this is de facto socialism. As for "banana republic", exactly where did I advocate corrupt practices to benefit a favored few? Really it appears you are unable to critically examine someone's words without imposing your interpretation, and then injecting your ready made argument, regardless of whether it was being addressed. This is illustrated by your bringing 3rd world countries into the discussion, to somehow say we don't have socialism, or that employing a truer free market capitalism would somehow naturally lead us to such a devolved state. Quite the opposite, in that we have many cases showing how mandated practices from a central government leads to economic ruin and scarcity of resources; the USSR, Cuba, China to name a few.

History
roy Location: IL writes:
"fletch
you are lost in your own fantasy world. you want your theories to be right. so much that you make ridiculous claims like the drop in median family income is because the companies put it into benefits."

However unlike you he bothered to tell us exactly were he got his facts.

"anyone with a job knows you are trying to blow smoke. your theories have been discredited by history and at the polls."

History has more then proven fletch's theories. Polls are for voting so is not relevant.

AIG Tax Correction

Earlier I posted that the Congress had defeated the 90% tax measure, this was incorrect. The wire service alert I received erroneously confused the tax vote with the condemnation vote. So, Congress voted for the unconstitutional measure, but voted against the "sense of the House" condemnation of AIG. And, we wonder what the hell they are doing up there?

vicki
see you have the same mindset as fletch. you both claim my statements and assertions are "anecdotal". when something happens to enough people it ceases to be anecdotal. yeah supply side econonomics has worked. for the top 10 per cent. everyone else got hung out to dry. i never said it didn't work for some people. guess it comes down to what you define "worked" to be. and the polls are relevant as this is where the various economic theories are on trial. if your theories really did work for the middle class obama never would have been elected. you folks have been getting people to vote against their own economic interest for years. and that was fine as long as people were thinking they were getting ahead. even a little. but when median family income actually dropped, most people didn't go to a study to confirm it. all they had to do was look at their paychecks. and to say that you are actually better off because it went into "benefits" is ludicrous. thats not true but even if it was so what? you can't eat benefits. people finally woke up to the fact that supply siders were peeing down people's backs and telling them it was raining. thats why you got obama and thats why you are going to get him again in 2012.

F1etch
Your belief in an uncomplicated always efficient market flies in the face of a reality which is much more complicated than you seem to believe. In particular, your assertion that bonuses are always deserved flies in the face of the reality that a large number of CEO's of companies were receiving large bonuses as they went bankrupt.

I don't believe that what we saw on Wall Street was just a few bad apples (even though you seem to think they are just are good ones).

The kind of crony capitalism gives the legitimate markets a bad name.

A Point & a Proposal
John Locke made the original arguments supporting the linkage between freedom in the economic sphere (free markets) and the freedom of the individual from coercion by the state.

Tammy & Roy are being fitted for their chains. They do not understand that the politicians they support are (very intentionally) going to destroy the economy upon which they depend; those government actions will grind Tammy, Roy and the rest of us into bleakest poverty. Should any of us protest, that government may find it necessary to have us "disappear". Or so it has gone in other societies that have gone down this path.

Our best hope for success in opposing this statist and tyrannical future probably lies with our Congresspeople. Many of them -- one thinks of the leadership of the Democratic Party -- are a lost cause -- cruel, selfish, and profoundly dishonest. But many more are merely cowed by the authority structure in DC.

We need to make it clear to them that they'd best be more afraid of us, the voters, than they are of the Party Leadership. That indeed, unless they grow a spine and jettison the likes of Pelosi & Dodd & Frank & Reid, they and the Democratic Party are going to be politically destroyed in 2010. They need to understand that if the Party's frog-march toward tyranny continues apace, by 19 months from now running as an admitted Democrat will be a good way to get lynched.

Write your Congressperson. Urge them to put their country ahead of their party. Many will.





economic lessons
roy Location: IL writes:
"vicki
I see you have the same mindset as fletch. you both claim my statements and assertions are "anecdotal"."

We (I) also claim that proof by bald assertion is still proof by bald assertion. I.E. worth any random opinion.

roy - "yeah supply side econonomics has worked. for the top 10 per cent. everyone else got hung out to dry."

Proof by bald assertion. Exaggerated count and fancy rhetoric (hung out to dry :) is still worth the same as any random opinion.

roy - "i never said it didn't work for some people. guess it comes down to what you define "worked" to be."

Kinda like what you define "is" to be. (Thank you Mr. Clinton)

Economics lessons (cont)
Roy Location: IL writes:
"and the polls are relevant as this is where the various economic theories are on trial."

Polls are not a court of law. They are however a good measure of greed.

roy - "if your theories really did work for the middle class obama never would have been elected."

As if those theories was the only motivation for voting for Obama.

roy - "you folks have been getting people to vote against their own economic interest for years."

Wow. Such power. With that much power it would not be possible for us to loose. Of course AIG shows us what interest OBama Dobbs etal has. Yet the polls as you claim chose them. So it would appear that our power is secure and the people are continuing (presumes they were) to vote against their own economic interest. Not very smart of them.

roy - "and that was fine as long as people were thinking they were getting ahead. even a little."

Silly them. Had a house and everything. (remember where all those foreclosures came from. Oh wait that was democrats again)

"but when median family income actually dropped, most people didn't go to a study to confirm it. all they had to do was look at their paychecks.

If they failed to go to a study to confirm it then they are way too stupid to be allowed to govern themselves. Oh wait. That's the plan.

"and to say that you are actually better off because it went into "benefits" is ludicrous.

Are benefits not a benefit?

"you can't eat benefits."

You can't eat median income either. your point?

(ridiculous ad hominem attack involving bodily functions deleted.)

JPH - I

First of all, you are correct. I should not have called you an idiot. I apologize.

Secondly, rules and regulations in the free market do not equate to a socialized economy. Socialism is ownership, either de facto or de jure in nature, of the means of production. In this vein, we have effectively or are close to nationalizing our megabanks, the largest insurance company in the world, and our automobile companies. Nationalization of industries is a primary component of socialism.

All of that being said, what is going on is a distraction to the main and, without being pollyannaish, the most dire situation that we have seen in decades, if not in our history. As I indicated below, the Fed is printing money at an alarming rate. Understand, NEVER in the history of monetary policy has a government been able to effectively time inflationary tools to counteract deflation. NEVER. We are either looking at the most devastating recession that we have ever seen in this country or another depression AND this is only if we quit spending. If the Fed continues to print money and the government continues to spend it, not only will we have inflation and a depression, but the dollar will collapse. Most people do not believe that there can be a depression and inflation at the same time. This is simply not the case. Any cursory review of the Weimar Government or modern day Zimbabwe proves that inflation can incur in a depression.

JPH - II
According to sources from within the Congressional Budget Office, Obama is going to receive devastating news tomorrow on both the economy and his proposed budget. The new projections put his budget AT MORE THAN FOUR QUADRILLION DOLLARS!

China previously expressed concern over their investments and, in a way, were rewarded yesterday by the Fed's actions because they made $700bn in one day. Today, Russia has voiced grave concern about the stability of our dollar.

At the rate we are going, the poor will NEVER see parity with the "middle class", who will likewise lose their buying power. The next shoe to drop is going to be the collapse of state pension funds, which will wipe out the retirement savings of millions.

Any collapse of or significant instability in the dollar will make it nearly impossible to borrow overseas. Should this occur, Obama can say goobye to his dreams of universal healthcare, cap-n-tax, and likely card check, which will result in a replay of the effects of the 1936 Wagner Act and other workplace rules that led to the 1937 recession within the Great Depression.

Please think about what I am saying. This is not a partisan issue. It is about sound fiscal and monetary policy and the future of our country.

Vicki

Don't try to explain to Roy. Supply-side and trickle-up economic theories are both useless at this point. At the rate Monopoly money is being printed, Roy will have to start filling a wheelbarrow to buy a sandwich for lunch.

"Inflation, Extravagance, Bankruptcy."
John Maynard Keynes campaigned for budgetary flexibility and abandonment of the gold standard for at least a decade before publishing his General Theory in 1936. And he was a genius of rhetoric as well as of economics. He could explain his ideas with equal brilliance in the abstractions of Treasury mandarins or the straightforward language of common people: "Housewives of England, for every shilling you save, you put a man out of work for a day."

But Keynes's arguments were ignored by democratic governments the world over. Gordon Brown describes a document in the Treasury archives in which Keynes's proposals for saving Britain from depression were dismissed by the Permanent Secretary with three scribbled words: "Inflation, Extravagance, Bankruptcy."

Most people in the 1930s agreed with the Treasury that Keynes was irresponsible and deluded. And that is what many believe today -that a debt crisis cannot be cured by borrowing; that saving is virtuous while spending is wasteful; that printing money creates inflation and that the best response to recession is to fire government bureaucrats.

If these beliefs become conventional wisdom among voters, then coping with the economic crisis will become as difficult as it was in the 1930s - at least for democracies. And here we come to the real horror.

In the 1930s only one country put expansionary policies fully into practice. Hitler's Germany.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/03/limbaugh-hanni ty-defend-aig-wh.html

Obama must believe that he
being the ONE will make socialism work. He's in for a huge humbling experience and we are the ones that are going to have to pay for it.


From where do liberals think prosperity in this country came? The backs of the oppressed?

Then why aren't other countries as wealthy?

Because we are free to pursue happiness.Because profit isn't a dirty word.
Because I don't care how rich the rich are. Their richness does not affect my happiness. I have as much wealth as I could desire. Why should anyone care how rich rich people are?

We are not toddlers. We don't whine that's not fair he has more than me.

We have a Constitution our Founding Fathers gave to us to uphold.

We don't need to become a stinking welfare country.

TEchnology is going to die and we will return to the dark ages.

JPH
What you refer to as crony capitalism,is illustrative of not of the faults of capitalism but of the inherent nature of man. This is not done away with in any economic system. In China and the USSR there was and is crony communism, but, BUT there was and is less prosperity and much less freedom. The individual becomes meaningless and the system lifted above people. The way to help all is not an imposed sytem, but changed lives. What do you have to offer that will cause one to value someone else in such a way to look out for their good?

Denise
Thank you for you reasoned response. I too am concerned about the future of our economy and have been for a long time. We have been spending money we do not have for a long time. We have been living on Chinese and Japanese money and it could not continue. I am referring to private citizens, Wall Street and the Federal government. A good outcome is not assured. The unfunded pension liability issue is merely one example of living on borrowed money and refusing to pay our bills. However, having said that, what is to be done?

To sit back and do nothing would lead to the collapse of much of the financial system and that would lead to unemployment and business collapse beyond what we saw in the 1930's. As much as I dislike some of these financial actors whose behavior was outrageous, I don't think that we have any choice but to prop them up and perhaps even nationalize them at least temporarily.

As to the Fed expansion of the money supply, we again can do nothing and see credit limitations that drag this recession-depression out for a long time. I hope that when things begin to recover they can then shrink the supply or we will have inflation. No matter what we do the value of the dollar will decline in the long run. We have seen a temporary up-tic due to the global recession which is a sign of confidence in the US economy but I doubt that we will see living standards return to previous levels for a long time.

I question the statement about the Quadrillion budget. There isn't that much money on the entire economy.

Obviously you don't think what we are doing is appropriate. So what do you think should be done?

Lenard
I agree with much of what you say. I just don't believe that we can change human behavior so we need policemen, not just on the streets, but in overseeing the financial system. I don't know why we think people in the economic system are any different than drivers for example. For everyone's best interest both drivers and economic actors need policing.

Corruption exists in all systems. I don't advocate changing to some other system. I just think it is naive to think that that further Wall Street like debacles won't occur if we just leave the system alone. The constitution recognizes this and poses different interests against one another.

In the economic world, we need people who do not have a vested interest in the outcome to oversee the system and prevent rampant abuse such as we see in the system now. Will it work perfectly, no, but then allowing the fox to guard the hen-house as we did over the last number of years clearly doesn't work either.

What Can Be Done
Defending or opposing any tax or other budgetary proposals based on objective economic data and statistics is misguided. Such proposals are political and sociological, not economic.

All facets of our government are now geared toward waging war against the haves, and sharing the spoils of that war with the have nots. We waste our time debating on this. The communists have an agenda and no amount of logic and mathematical proof will dissuade them.

The haves are anyone whose managed their finances properly. They've acquired their wealth through hard work and wise investing of their money. They work, pay taxes, don't violate laws, and serve their country in wars.

The have nots are misfits, parasites, losers and other registered democrats. They are common criminals and loafers, sometimes over-educated under-achievers, resentful of their failures and their abandonment by their hippie mothers after conception at Woodstock and other outdoor concerts. They bred like flies. Most are hyphenated citizens who are protected by the government like endanger species when they should be exterminated because they are pests.

Yet, there apparently are now more have nots and their sympathizers. How can the rest of us cope with that.

It is for every productive citizen to be the captain of his ark. He must use the tax code creatively and liberally and otherwise shield his wealth.

He also can play a role as a silent freedom fighter. For example, if he is an employer, he has an obligation to rid himself of Obama voters and hire other, productive citizens. This can be done in many ways so as not to invite scrutiny by government ethnic police.

All of us must not patronize Obama supporting businesses. Their owners can be identified through county voting records and shunned.

Just some suggestions.

JPH - I
"As to the Fed expansion of the money supply, we again can do nothing and see credit limitations that drag this recession-depression out for a long time. I hope that when things begin to recover they can then shrink the supply or we will have inflation."

Denise: Unfortunately, this recession-depression is going to drag out for a while. Regardless of what either Party says, the underlying fundmentals are NOT strong. We have long built our economy on a fantasy. As you said, we have been living on credit (as a country and as individuals) for decades. We produce little and are a consumer nation.

Contraction of the money supply is a lot easier said than done, especially at the rate that the Government is spending and plans to spend money. Remember what I wrote, what the Fed did yesterday, has NEVER been successful in the history of monetary policy.

"No matter what we do the value of the dollar will decline in the long run. We have seen a temporary up-tic due to the global recession which is a sign of confidence in the US economy but I doubt that we will see living standards return to previous levels for a long time."

Denise: Yes, it is already declining. The up-tick is temporary because the same negative indicators and factors that brought about this recession are still present. Further, IMHO, this recession-depression has been building for, at least, the last decade. We had the tech bubble, 9/11, the housing bubble, debt spending by individual and deficit spending by government. Now, we have a government that will spend more money in 2 years than Bush did in 8 and will spend more in 5 years than in our entire history.

JPH - II

"I question the statement about the Quadrillion budget. There isn't that much money on the entire economy."

Denise: I meant 4 trillion. The GDP (in a good year) is ~$14T. Add all of the spending that I listed last night and you can see where this is unsustainable.

"Obviously you don't think what we are doing is appropriate. So what do you think should be done?"

Denise: Unfortunately, the Federal Reserve makes the call on monetary policy and it has already pulled the trigger on what may be its last available bullet. The only other thing that can be done is the halt the insane spending. We have to take a breath and get a handle on what is going on; otherwise, we are just speeding towards the cliff.

JPH
What are you talking about? You thing there aren't any rules on Wall Street? The only financial institution that didn't have to follow the rules was Fannie and Freddie. Where did you come up with that nonsense?

Quotes From IBD Editorial.
And while he was talking about the New Deal, Schumpeter was very troubled by a widespread prejudice against business, one in which private wealth was under a "moral ban" alongside public antagonism that would "make it impossible to accumulate venture capital."

In today's case, we have politicians talking up increased taxes on work and investment engaged in by the "rich." Simplified, politicians will seek to redistribute wealth away from the vital few, and into the hands of what some deem the "working classes."

Marx and Engels observed in the "Communist Manifesto" that "a heavy progressive or graduated income tax" was a certain way for the proletariat to seize power, and it's apparent Washington will try to make taxes even more progressive.

All of the above should be remembered the next time overly sanguine economists talk about economic recovery that's either here or just around the corner. Indeed, unless the laws of economics have significantly changed, any supposed recovery will be a certain shadow of previous ones seared in our memory.

Thanks, Vicki
Alas, roy is simply in denial. I don't even think that he can't grasp the difference - but his mind reels because it leads to conclusions he doesn't want to acknowledge. If something happens to enough people it shows up IN THE AGGREAGATED DATA. By definition, if it doesn't appear there, then it HASN'T happened to enough people to cease being anecdotal. But, if he accepts that (obvious) point, then his whole argument collapses and he simply can't admit (equally obvious) defeat.

He falls back on "supply side economics was a failure" (actually that was a phrase coined by the left to smear the abandonment of solely demand side economics rather than an actual description of the policies) when, in reality, the 1980s was a period when the rich got richer and the poor got ... RICHER and, those policies created an economic expansion that lasted (save a Saddam Hussein created blip) for nearly two decades.

He relies entirely on faith, which is why he keeps bringing up polls as if opinions ever trumped facts. The Left enjoys this argument now (forgeting that it would mean that reality changes due to opinion) becasue their guy won THIS time. By that logic, Obama's policies are deteriorating rapidly since his approval ratings are in full nose dive mode and will be failing (well, they already are) in a matter of a couple of months at the most.

Logic to liberals - like holy water to vampires (but not like a stake 'cuz they leep coming back).

Nice try JPH
"Your belief in an uncomplicated always efficient market flies in the face of a reality which is much more complicated than you seem to believe."

To the contrary, I am NOT operating from "belief". I never argued that the market was perfect or "always efficient". I argued that the market is always MORE efficient than governmental action which is established fact. Do a little research into the topic of the "economic calculation problem".

There has NEVER been any evidence that government action is more efficient or beneficial to the economy that private action. All the evidence is to the contrary.

"In particular, your assertion that bonuses are always deserved..."

I NEVER said that "bonuses are always deserved" either. You need to learn to read. I pointed out that the AIG bonuses have not been shown to be unrealted to eprformance (which is a measure of individual activity) which is a fact. Again, the market is not perfect, but the private sector is vastly more capable of determining who is "deserving" than government, which, again, is completely vindicated by reality. The payment of bonuses as a company goes into bankruptcy is actually extremely rare (excluding the payment under PRE-EXISTING bonus plans that compensate individuals for hitting their sales/production/profitability goals, often to people who make only nominal direct wages because their compensation is so performance driven. That does not mean the company will be profitable particularly when results are driven by TREASURY losses that had nothing to do with the SALES function (where bonuses are typically paid) as was the case at AIG.

"I don't believe..."

Because you are all about faith rather than actual evidence as demonstrated by the use of a phrase only used by the devout (and clueless: "crony capitalism".

Vicky, my sweet!
Excellent analysis of logic!

Bravo!

What works
F1etch Location: PA
"There has NEVER been any evidence that government action is more efficient or beneficial to the economy that private action. All the evidence is to the contrary."

There is ONE government action that has been very beneficial to the economy. Lowering taxes. Worked 4 of 4 times tried since 1913 :)
Worked for Democrats and Republicans so it is a non-partisan solution.

This article covers the first 3 times.
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=48

Its been good for tax revenue too.


-----------------------------------------------
F1etch - " JPH writes - "In particular, your assertion that bonuses are always deserved..."

"I NEVER said that "bonuses are always deserved" either. "
------------------------------------

Besides it is not Fletch's place, your place, nor the Governments place to say. Unless the government owns the business. But that can't be cause that would be socialism.

And people wonder why we are worried that the current admin is heading us directly at Socialism.


crony capitalism

---------------------------
F1etch - " JPH writes "I don't believe..."

Because you are all about faith rather than actual evidence as demonstrated by the use of a phrase only used by the devout (and clueless: "crony capitalism". "
---------------------------

A reason why Fletch refers to "crony capitalism" as an article of faith is that the definition of "crony capitalism" is a bit vague making it hard to discuss.

The best definitions I could find with a quick scan of google are

http://dictionary.bnet.com/definition/crony+capitalism.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Crony+c apitalism&ei=weXDSf6QDZ3gsAPq7536Bg&sa=X&oi=glossary_defini tion&ct=title

------------------------------------------------
http://www.answers.com/topic/crony-capitalism
A description of capitalist society as being based on the close relationships between businessmen and the state. Instead of success being determined by a free market and the rule of law, the success of a business is dependent on the favoritism that is shown to it by the ruling government in the form of tax breaks, government grants and other incentives.
------------------------------------------------

Now given that people like JPH use the title crony capitalism as bad and is one of their main points to give up on capitalism and embrace socialism I would ask why?

"A description of capitalist society as being based on the close relationships between businessmen and the state."

Just because Socialism eliminates the middle man (businessmen)?

----------------------------------------------
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
2 b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.
-----------------------------------------------

vicki
Lower taxes, gain revenue.

Hmmm.

Maybe you would like to take a look at these
3 websites.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=165

http://www.freedomworks.org/publications/tax-cut-revenue-re wards

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-taxcollections.htm

The first, I believe is neutral, the second
is definitely right-wing, but written before
the Bush economic debacle, not taking into
account that virtually all of our "gains" were
in the subprime housing market. The rest of
the economy tanked before then.

The third is left-wing oriented.

lower taxes Higher tax reveneu
Tammy Location: IL
Reply # 102
Date: Mar 20, 2009 - 10:22 PM EST
vicki
Lower taxes, gain revenue.

Hmmm."

Yep.

http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=48

And good for the economy too.
http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html

Median income
http://www.thefinancialhelpcenter.com/Economy/Median-Income .html (real and numeric)
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p01AR.html (per capita)


I did observe that the bush economy tanked AFTER the Democrats took control of congress and there is lots of evidence to indicate the Democrats had a LOT to do with the sub prime mess.
http://www.openmarket.org/2008/07/15/schumer-caused-banking -crisis-not-ots/

http://vodpod.com/watch/1038839-dems-refuse-to-reform-fredd %20ie-fannie-in-2004-video




Maybe you should look closer, Tammy
The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities couldn't be less neutral if they linked directly to marxism.org.

"...the second is definitely right-wing..."

...and makes the case that, given time, tax cuts pay for themselves.

"...but written before the Bush economic debacle..."

...which had NOTHING to do with tax cuts, nor were tax receipts at the time inflated by the sub-prime mortgage crisis which was a symptom of too free money, not the cause, anyway.

"The rest of the economy tanked before then."

Personally, I enjoy reading fantasy, but Terry Goodkind is a much better writer than you are.

"The third is left-wing oriented."

Ya think?!?!?!?

The economic reality is that SOME tax cuts pay for themselves and others do not (and, of course, SOME tax increases reduce revenues and others do not). The higher the rate from which a cut is made (or to which an increase is made), the more likely that the revenue swing will offset the change. Also, the more linked to capital formation (i.e. capital gains taxes), the more likely that the revenue swing will offset the change.

Despite the fact that each cut INITIALLY lowers revenues, because the economic impact takes time to yield results, the evidence is clear that the Kennedy tax cuts paid for themselves. And, while not as clear cut, the Reagan cuts seem to fall into the same category. For that matter, so do the Clinton capital gains cuts (else we likely would have had the recession of 1999 or early 2000).

Whether the Bush tax cuts paid for themselves is more difficult to assess by far with 9/11 and the Fed actions so distorting the data. It is unlikely that they ultimately paid for themselves in the economic environment that existed. Nevertheless, they paid for MUCH of the cost in their contribution to the economic turnaround from a recession that he inherited.

tax realities
F1etch Location: PA writes:
"The economic reality is that SOME tax cuts pay for themselves and others do not (and, of course, SOME tax increases reduce revenues and others do not). The higher the rate from which a cut is made (or to which an increase is made), the more likely that the revenue swing will offset the change. Also, the more linked to capital formation (i.e. capital gains taxes), the more likely that the revenue swing will offset the change."

And here is a discussion on WHY tax cuts likely pay for themselves.
http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct. htm

In particular which tax cuts seem to be the ones that help.
--------------------------------------------------
Tax Rates and Tax Revenues

High marginal tax rates discourage work effort, saving, and investment, and promote tax avoidance and tax evasion. A reduction in high marginal tax rates would boost long term economic growth, and reduce the attractiveness of tax shelters and other forms of tax avoidance. The economic benefits of ERTA were summarized by President Clinton's Council of Economic Advisers in 1994: "It is undeniable that the sharp reduction in taxes in the early 1980s was a strong impetus to economic growth."
-------------------------------------------------

Please Define "Middle Class"
For months now I have asked someone, ANYONE, to define Middle Class as pertains to this "economics" Mess..I have never made more than 70K in my life. I have never drawn an unemployment check..I have worked at some *less than Elite* jobs including 25= yrs in Military service.. I have bought and paid for 2 residences.. I don't owe anything beyond Utilities, etc..I have always considered (wanted to be ) Middle Class.. Are Min Wagers now Midclass/? Welfare Folks. Seems like it!!If U wanta be *Poor* U can/will be HELP PLEASE..
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