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Wednesday, September 12, 2007
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Politicians Losing Iraq
by Terry Jeffrey
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Watching Gen. David Petraeus testify before Congress inspired several thoughts.

The first is that he has taken on one of the most difficult missions ever given a U.S. commander: building a nation in a region of the Middle East already involved in an incipient ethno-sectarian war.

Petraeus unambiguously identified this as the core struggle we face. "The fundamental source of the conflict in Iraq is competition among ethnic and sectarian communities for power and resources," he said. "The question is whether the competition takes place more -- or less -- violently."

The second thought is that it would be difficult to find a man better suited to this monumental challenge. Petraeus is very smart, honest and tough.

The third is that the courageous troops Petraeus leads are performing as well as military forces can be expected to perform in such a situation.

At one point, Petraeus gave an example of the problems they face. Shiite warlord Muqtada al-Sadr has decreed that his Mahdi Army should take a six-month hiatus from fighting. Some have apparently obeyed his decree -- others have not. As consequence, Petraeus has decided to treat some Mahdi Army members as enemies, some as potential friends.

"We are not going to kill our way out of all these problems in Iraq," he explained. "You're not going to kill or capture all of the Sadr militia any more than we are going to kill or capture all the insurgents in Iraq. And, in fact, what we have tried very hard to do is to identify who the irreconcilables are, if you will, on either end of the spectrum, Sunni and Shia, and then to figure out where do the reconcilables begin and try to reach out to the reconcilables."

"Some of that will have to be done with members of the Jaish al-Mahdi, with Sadr's militia," he concluded. "The question is: Who are the irreconcilables?"

To put this in perspective, recall that we went into Iraq because all of our intelligence agencies with all of their resources could not accurately determine whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Now, to get out of Iraq, our soldiers must accurately determine which members of a heretofore murderous, Iranian-armed, Shiite fundamentalist militia can be trusted to make peace and which ones cannot.

Yet, in the face of such challenges, our troops have achieved measurable success. "The military objectives of the surge are, in large measure, being met," Petraeus said.

Notably, his assertion that overall attacks in Iraq have been declining in recent weeks was actually corroborated by the contrarian report published on Sept. 5 by the Government Accountability Office. A graph in that report, titled "Average Number of Daily, Enemy-Initiated Attacks Against the Coalition, Iraqi Security Forces and Civilians (May 2003-July 2007)," shows overall attacks peaking in June then steeply dropping.

The very real success of Petraeus and his troops, however, represents only half the surge strategy -- the half our military can accomplish. The other half is political, and must be accomplished by Iraqi politicians.

Petraeus explained this in April. "The focus of Multinational Force Iraq is, of course, on working with our local Iraqi counterparts to help improve security for the people of Iraq in order to give Iraqi leaders the time and space they need to come to grips with the tough political issues that must be resolved," he said.

So far, this half of the surge has failed miserably. None of the major reforms believed necessary to reconcile Sunnis and Shiites have been enacted. De-Baathification has not passed. Oil laws have not passed. Amnesty has not been approved. Provincial elections have not been set. Constitutional amendments have not been adopted.

What did Iraq's politicians do while our troops courageously surged? They indulged in serial boycotts.

After Shiites and Kurds voted in June to remove Iraq's maniacal Sunni parliament speaker (who had accused U.S. forces of butchery and attributed sectarian violence in Iraq to the Israeli Mossad), the main Sunni faction declared it was boycotting the legislature until the maniacal speaker was restored. Shortly after that, Sadr's Shiite faction announced it was boycotting the parliament to protest the new bombing of the Golden Mosque. No sooner had the maniacal speaker been restored, and all factions had returned to parliament, than the parliament adjourned for a month-long vacation.

In August, the main Sunni faction announced it was boycotting the cabinet. Then, the faction headed by former interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi announced four of its five ministers would boycott, too. But they were merely catching up with Sadr's faction, five of whose members resigned from the cabinet in April.

This leads to a final thought: If Iraqi politicians don't learn how to work their own democracy soon, they may get a bitter lesson in how American democracy works next November. Unfortunately, if significant further progress is not made in Iraq, it will be difficult to avert a U.S. election that brings to power a government committed to a rapid withdrawal from that country regardless of the consequences for the people there -- or for our own national security.

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About The Author

Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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Some thoughts
First off, WHY in the hell is Muqtada Al Sadr still alive and/or free? That piece of camel dung should have been imprisoned, or better yet killed, A LONG time ago. That way he and his "Mahdi Army" wouldn't still be a problem today.

That being said, the worst problem our troops face is NOT the Iraqi insurgents who've made it clear that they want to kill us. It's the Democrats, RINO Republicans, and MSM in our own country that will smile to the faces of the troops and pledge their undying support while twisting a knife into their backs asdeeply and forcefully as possible.
While the politicians in the NEW Iraqi government do present a problem in that this is the first time they've had the chance to run their own country, it's notthem that's the biggest problem here.
THAT is OUR Democrat party, and Republican RINO's who thinks that they are in charge of the Iraqi Government and it must do things the way THEY say.
OUR government took almost eight years to get things running smoothly when they were first trying to get their act together.
While we can't wait forever for it to happen, we also can't expect the Iraqi government to just snap their fingers and have everythoing running hunky dory.

Petraeus and our troops have been doing a great job in spite of the problems they've faced and are to be commended.
The Democrats, the MSM and the RINO Republicans in the US need to shut up and stop stabbing our troops, and the new Iraqi government, in the back.

Respect-Respect-Respect
It is a shame that many of our congress members have no respect for our General, and his progress. I taught my children, you do not put others down, to make yourself look good. It only works for a while, People are more intelligent than that. I don't know how long it will take to make our politicians be more supportive of our country, but what they are doing with all the negativity, is very dangerous. The attitudes are making our militery's job more dangerous, and less successful. They are fighting two wars, one in Iraq, and one in Washington. We should drop all the negativity get together 100% with our troops their people in charge, and their mission. I think then we can all be Proud of our country, and we can be trusted again by other countries. I am with having my grandson and the troops home safe and proud. I do not like them being told that what they are doing is not working and tat we lose, unless it is said by the GENERAL.

Double Ditto Army Vet
Parliment took August off--so did our congress! Congress likes to say that Parliment vacationed while our troops continued the fight. That is apples and oranges. The Iraqi army did not take August off but worked along side the MNF. Seems that August allowed alMaliki to reach out to various factions to lay the groundwork for some important, benchmark decisions facing Iraq. Our congress gets very little done on the benchmarks the American people want achieved such as saving Social Security, a less complicated tax system, some way of making health insurance more affordable (without the government taking over) and most important acting like statesmen instead of power hungry persons more concerned with their next election. Our troops are manificent--our congress leaves much to be desired.

Dems. now own failure and defeat
so let the Left rant.

If the current anti-insurrection tactics are working in Iraq, and we can draw down troops in the winter and spring, the Dems. will simply be more exposed as the losers and defeatists they are now and have been for 40 years.

We'll be in Inaq the rest of my life, because we are in Korea, Japan, Germany, Kosovo (where we have three bases and three soldiers died last year), and wherever else we have fought.

It took 6 years (1945-1951) to democratize Japan--under total occupation and dictatorship, a nation that recognized defeat and was more homogeneous and united that the current Iraq (cobbled together after WW I).

Another year fighting in Iraq is worth it to get a working dem., no matter how weak, in the center of the Middle East. It will counterbalance Iran and protect Israel and give us a presence we cannot afford to abandon in a tinderbox segment of the world.

W S
Oh yes, only Bush has a bad time table.

Do you happen to remeber " we will be out of Bosnia by Christmas"
Silly, I thought Clinton meant that year.

Renny:
"Another year fighting in Iraq is worth it to get a working dem., no matter how weak, in the center of the Middle East."

Is that your professional opinion of how long it will take? Victory is always 'just around the corner' to you guys, isn't it? And for what it's worth- during our stay in post war Germany and Japan NOBODY WAS SHOOTING AT US.

We don't fight
like we did WW I and WW II, where we had drafts and threw literally millions of men into long, solid front line and pushed the enemy back through a strategy of attrition.

I think today we fight with one hand tied behind our backs, we are afraid of bad press (since virtually all the MSM media is leftist, it is always bad press all the time regardless), and we put soldiers in harm's way by very strict rules or engagement and second guessing the situations they will face under fire. See Black Hawk Down.

A year is not a long time, in the history of conflict, and I have lived through a military humiliation like Vietnam that led to a near decade of high inflation, high interest rates, high unemployment, and recession, a demoralized military and Congress busy gutting the CIA and FBI. See the Church committee, 1974,

If you don't think that's not a pattern after failure and defeat for a nation, you haven't studied the Fr. Revolution, the 10 years following the Russion Rev., or Ger. after WW I.

We had the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after WW II because we didn't want a continent full of rubble to immediately turn into WW III. Actually, we won WW III--the fall of communism.

We are now in WW IV, and a year will look like nothing 50 or 150 years from now when it maybe winds down. I won't live to see that, but this Islamism will be a threat for the rest of my life.

No one shot at us
in Ger. or Japan after WW II because they were totally defeated by millions of Am. troops and under total occupation and dictatorship by us.

In Gwer. and Japan, we didn't let people run riot in the streets, let ammunition depots go unprotected, let pourous borders offer infiltration or escape, immediately promote local elections, give const.-writing powers to the defeated, and let a disbanded and undirected army without pay or future run loose through the nation. AND it STILL took 6 yrs. before we gave up the occupations.

Patton used former Nazis for law and order, for which he was highly criticized but he said he needed to keep Ger. from imploding.

See Lawrence of Arabia, if you want to see how the Middle East functions. It is nested tribalism, but the tribes do not see self immolation as a good future and are now allying for peace. Anyone who doesn't want success there is crazy and deserves the first suicide bomber who goes off as his seatmate on the bus.

Losing in Iraq?
What is there to win? If you have nothing to win, you have nothing to lose.

Does Iraq war make us safer??

Petraeus: I “Don’t Know” If The Iraq War Makes U.S. Safer

In this mind-blowing exchange, our highest ranking general in Iraq can’t articulate why we’re there and whether it’s good that we are.

The Nation: Republican Senator John Warner asked Petraeus a pointed question: “Do you feel that [Iraq war] is making America safer”?

Petraeus paused before responding. He then said: “I believe this is indeed the best course of action to achieve our objectives in Iraq.”

That was, of course, a non-answer. And Warner wasn’t going to let the general dodge the bullet. He repeated the question: “Does the [Iraq war] make America safer?”

Petraeus replied, “I don’t know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted in my own mind.”

UPDATE: Here’s some video of the exchange and of a very emotional Joe Biden and Chris Matthews, stunned that the General in Iraq can’t defend the policy. Make sure you listen towards the end (about 3:15) when Chris Matthews says, “It’s unimaginable, UNIMAGINABLE that Petraeus came before the Senate and spoke [like that]!”

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/petraeus-i-dont-know-if-the-iraq-war-makes-us-safer


MicroWave timeline or real vision
From wathing Gen. Petraeus and Amb. Crocker, and listening with an objective mind set; I was impressed with their candor about the situation in its entirity. Both admitted from the onset that years were wasted, also acknowlaging that the basis of trust within the Iraqi populace was less than weak from years of fear and mistrust from the Saddam regime which used death as a means of controling the people. They both brought out the fact that none of the Iraqi people wanted a Govt that would be able to impose that dictatorship again. Elections and the forming of a govt with those mindsets and Real Fears created their own problems.
Now , however because of the security being implemented, and trust being slowly bulit in the man on the street, progress is being made in the right direction. As both said, from the top down and the bottom up (which is truly more important).
The Iraqi people will begin to come on borad the nation building as they see it put together peice by peice and non threating to their daily life. Democracy cannot be micowaved, it can only be built. Congress likes pointing the finger to focus attention on other issues, except the ones they need to , but will not address. This situation will work if the present course is continued, and America will have an ally and partner in a region that is rife with corruption and dictatorial ideaology. Then , the war on terror will be Won from within and without. The true cost is time, not immediacy.

Sen. Warner to Gen. Pertaeus
Asking the General if the Iraq war makes us safer or not is not a fair question to the military officer. In our country, the military answers to civilians... elected civilian leaders send soldiers to war. Generals do not "sell" the war they are sent to, they just go, serve, and try to win.
Warner is one of those elected leaders and he is wrestling with what to do in his own mind. He is asking the General to do HIS job for him and take the heat he should take.
The General is too professional and dignified to say it, but he should have turned that right around and asked Warner..."You tell me."

Who Won Petraeus Week?
Did the hearings this week bolster support for the President and his mission in Iraq? Or did they give the Democrats the proof they need to press harder for withdrawal? Read and discuss this at http://www.thecoin.org

Disconnects
It's ironic how we live in our own self induced bubble in this country. The Arab world, for example, universally believes that Iran is more influential in Iraq than we are - due to the fact that they sheltered, funded and trained the two principal Shia parties, their leadership, and their militias. Since that time, they have added Sadr and his militia to the list of those they support - which is one reason Sadr ran off to Iran when he was threatened.

Then, we talk about reconciliation - yet we have these two ancient enemies vying in a weak democracy whose sects vote for their sects, dictating that the Shia's will rule, and the Sunni's will be a permanent underclass. Yet, we believe that somehow we can give the Sunni's both freedom and security in a system in which they will be powerless as they don't have the votes to have any power.

We hope, of course, that security does not just ultimately mean security for Shia's - as opposed to Sunni's. Just as we hope that the Shia's will actually share resources and jobs - which is what the Sunni's did not do when they were in power. In sum, that the religious Shia parties and the clerics who back them will be more willing to forgive and share than the Sunni's were.

But that's all it is. Just hopes. Right now, while we talk about better security, the flow of refugees out of the country has increased, just as those within the country moving to areas controlled by their sects and protected by their militias has doubled since last year. It may be that we believe we've made it safer - but this has not translated into the street. That, of course, we do not talk about. Iraq has fractured, and the people in Iraq have made that decision. Even as they have concluded that they cannot live in concert with each other in the same neighborhoods, we keep talking about "reconciliation". Yet, we ignore their decision while talking of our own.

The present course
> This situation will work if the present course is continued<

Work how? The much ballyhooed "success" in Anbar belies the reality.

>A journalist who lives in Fallujah told IPS that several local journalists had been detained and warned of trouble for them if they reported anything other than "good news" about Fallujah.

"The media in the West are lying about Fallujah by saying everything is well," said the journalist. "What is so good about a city that lives with no electricity, no water, no fuel, very expensive life necessities, and most important, with no vehicles? Moreover the unemployment is incredibly high." <

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/II07Ak04.html



Petraeus showed the surge is failing
No, I am not one of those idiots that says the surge is failing militarily. Petraeus is doing the best possible job he can in a miserable situation. The purpose of the surge was 20% military and 80% political. It was to give the Iraqis time and security to establish a central democratic government that can run the country.

That is clearly not happening.

The key moment in Pertraeus's testimony came yesterday that should be a wakeup call to anyone who cares about this country and its military.

He told America and the troops doing the fighting and dying that he DOES NOT KNOW WHETHER OUR INVASION OF IRAQ IS MAKING AMERICA SAFER OR NOT. That is a dagger in the heart of every soldier over there, anyone who has lost a soldier, and every American. We all depend on our military to protect us from some very evil forces in the world.

He, the commander in charge of it all, is NOT convinced what he is doing is making us safer and more secure. DO NOT DOUBT FOR A NANOSECOND HE WOULD HAVE SAID A SIMPLE YES TO THE QUESTION if he were.

I can hear blithering conservative fools and parrotors of Bush's lies saying its not Petreaus's job to decide that. Its Bush's job.

Get a grip on reality. Bush has tried since the invasion to tell us, including Petraeus why we are there to make us safer. He has tried in many different ways and made many different arguments.

Obviously, nothing Bush has said has convinced Petraeus that what we are doing is making us safer.

We need a new commander in chief BADLY. Too bad we have to wait so many months for Hillary or Obama to get someone with a brain in the white house.

Not that I am convinced anyone even a genius like Hillary or Obama (tongue planted firmly in cheek) will get us out of there soon. We are there for a decade or more. The real question is what should our troops be doing there. It is clear Bush doesn't have a clue.

renny
"no one shot at us in Germany and Japan after WWII"

Stay in school kid and read your history book if you really think that.

slacker
That was a stupid question from a stupid politician. How could he possibly answer that question? He doesn't have the data to make a determination one way or another. It would be a purely philosophical response wide open to attacks by critics.

apoplectic
"That was a stupid question from a stupid politician."

And put on Townhall by a Stupid Liberal.

Georgetwin
"And put on Townhall by a Stupid Liberal. "

No argument there!!

apoplectic your knee jerk response
is wrong, wrong wrong. It does not matter if you are conservative or liberal. You will hear this comment echo for the rest of the campaign season until you are sick of hearing about it.

All he had to do was say YES and hand the microphone over to Crocker when asked why. He was too honest to do that. Face it, he does not think the answer is YES.

For that reason alone it was an incredibly shrewd question from a lame duck conservative who has turned against the war and did the most clever thing he could do to undermine support for Bush's policies.

And anyway, don't be naive. If Petraeus and his organization is not a contributor of much of the data the administration would use to make such a determination, the moon is made of green cheese.

And Petraeus has to be far more plugged in to the administration's grand strategies and objectives for the war and the ME region than you or I are.

If Petraeus cannot decide from all the administration has told us and all the information he has access to that this war is making America safer the commander in chief is wasting our treasure and our military. To me in this time of danger that is Bush's legacy.

I note Georgetwin and Apoplectic
that neither of you have anything intelligent to say. Typical conservative response - don't discuss the issue intelligently, just call any one who disagrees with you stupid and other names.

Think about what you say before you post... If Petreaus does not have the information to make the decision whether the war is making America safer than YOU surely don't know whether it is either.

Thus, supporting the war as Bush is conducting it (via Petraeus and the administration in Washington and our ambassadors in Iraq) is an act of faith in George Bush as commander in chief.

This is a losing argument for you. Here is a clue: It is not just liberals who have lost faith in Bush's ability and judgement to conduct the war. Many conservatives, including some who post here on TH doubt him too.

Thus going down this path is handing the keys to the white house to Hillary or Obama, whether you like it or not.

GOP were traitors in the 90's??
It is almost hysterical watching the right criticize the left for tactics on Iraq.
I recommend taking a look at
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/when_congress_stops_wars.html

One of the passages sums it up nicely:
"Regardless of which party holds a majority of the seats in Congress, it is almost always the opposition party that creates the most trouble for a president intent on waging war. When, in the early 1990s, a UN humanitarian operation in Somalia devolved into urban warfare, filling nightly newscasts with scenes from Mogadishu, Congress swung into action. Despite previous declarations of public support for the president's actions, congressional Republicans and some Democrats passed a Department of Defense appropriations act in November 1993 that simultaneously authorized the use of force to protect UN units and required that U.S. forces be withdrawn by March 31, 1994.
A few years later, a Republican-controlled Congress took similar steps to restrict the use of funds for a humanitarian crisis occurring in Kosovo. ... The mixed messages sent by the Republicans caught the attention of Clinton's Democratic allies. As House member Martin Frost (D-Tex.) noted, "I am at a loss to explain how the Republican Party can, on one hand, be so irresponsible as to abandon our troops in the midst of a military action to demonstrate its visceral hostility toward the commander in chief, and then, on the other, turn around and double his request for money for what they call 'Clinton's war.'" The 1999 debate is remarkably similar to the current wrangling over spending on Iraq."

Given that are the TH righties now willing to call their Republican Icons "traitors" and the "cut and run" party???

Reality hurts sometimes. Get some.

Slacker
On Hardball Chris Matthews and others were berating Petraeus and the supporters about “not knowing if this war is making us safer.” I have one question:

Why trust him on this?

See, you can’t pick and choose. If Petraeus says something positive, he is denounced as a liar and manipulating facts; but if he says he isn’t sure whether we are safer he’s assumed to be as honest as a boy scout. This sums up the rhetoric of the anti-war left. Would intervention in Darfur or Rwanda make us safer!? Matthews steam-rolls people but this was too easy to refute.

Personally, I believe we will be safer with a stable Iraq. I believe General Petraeus does too; but he’s decided to stick to solid facts – only the anti-war left would think this a bad thing.

Success
Most people are assuming two elements when considering success in Iraq - military and political.
Most people are currently judging the first a success and the latter a failure.
Completely overlooked, and part of Bush's strategy in his surge speech in January, is reconstruction efforts in Iraq. To date, this has been the biggest failure so far, especially considering the massive amounts of money laid out for private security firms, money that has actually restricted the reconstruction effort.

>Efforts to rebuild water, electricity and health networks in Iraq are being shortchanged by higher-than-expected costs to provide security and by generous financial awards to contractors, according to a series of reports by government investigators released yesterday.

Taken together, the reports seem to run contrary to the Bush administration's upbeat assessment that reconstruction efforts are moving vigorously ahead and that the insurgency is dying.

The United States, Iraq and international donors have committed more than $60 billion to run Iraq and revive its damaged infrastructure. But security costs are eating away a substantial share of that total, up to 36 percent on some projects, the Government Accountability Office reported yesterday. The higher security costs are causing reconstruction authorities to scale back efforts in some areas and abandon projects in others.<


SOS same ole stuff
kneejerk... nothing intelligent?

sounds like name calling to me

but I digress
Patraeus was not going to please the congressmen paid for by moveon.org, no matter what he said, he could have said pull out tomorrow or in 20 years, and he would have been berated no matter which he said.

I listened and watched to the congressmen make a speech and then they quit listening to any thing else said, in the room.

I’m sorry this has to be said:
Although I believe a stable Iraq will make the U.S. safer as do many (especially safer in the future) - it really doesn’t matter right now. It shouldn’t direct our actions at this point. Period.

In other words, there are still issues of humanity to deal with outside of us the U.S. interest. It’s the ultimate disregard for human life to believe otherwise. It’s the old, “If it doesn’t help me, screw those savages” attitude. I shudder when I hear arguments that disregard what would inevitably happen if we left (per Petraeus).

I’m sorry this has to be said:
Although I believe a stable Iraq will make the U.S. safer as do many (especially safer in the future) - it really doesn’t matter right now. It shouldn’t direct our actions at this point - period.

In other words, there are still issues of humanity to deal with outside of us the U.S. interest. It’s the ultimate disregard for human life to believe otherwise. It’s the old, “If it doesn’t help me, screw those savages” attitude. I shudder when I hear arguments that disregard what would inevitably happen if we left (per Petraeus).


Gabby
>>“Gee, with all this wonderful nation-building and reshaping going on, I'm wondering why Muslims are furious with us?”

It doesn’t matter; those that are furious aren’t victims. They profit with the madness. They have no say so.




Kevin
You make my point.

The left immediately picked up on the implications of the fact that Petraeus could not say he is of the opinion that the war is making America safer. That is why Chris Matthews featured it immediately. As I say, you will hear this until the election.

Take your blinders off and see the world as it is. If Petreaus believed the war were making America safer he would have said so. Period. There would be no reason for him to be disingenuous about this. The American people are smart enough to understand this.

I don't buy your spin. You are saying that he was thinking like this:

"I know the war is making us safer, but I better not say that because I will denounced as a liar and manipulating facts. So rather than being straighforward and truthful and saying what I believe, I had better dissemble and avoid the question. Yeah, that's my story and I am sticking to it."

Don't you see how preposterous and convoluted your spin is. America, not just Chris Matthews sees right through it. That is why he delivered such a gift to the Democrat campaigns!!! People will beleive he said what he meant and meant what he said.

Also, of course we would be better off and safer with a stable Iraq IF, and ONLY IF it is not a puppet of Iran. The point is that no one, not Petraeus, not Bush, not you, have offered any credible evidence that after the surge is inevitably over next year that we will be any further down the path to that end than we are now.

You most assuredly do not have to be an "anti war leftie" to agree with me on that. You just have to be able to think for yourself.

slacker
It is your logic that is failing. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the military and it's chain of command. Petreaus is focused on his mission which is securing Iraq. Had he answered in the affirmative, the next question would be for him to explain why he feels that way. In other words, he would have been asked for data to back up that conclusion. Data which he in his role does not have. It would have been pure speculation, something a military leader is reticent to do. He was there to provide his assessment on his mission, not to speculate about the wider impact of the results of his mission. That is a question for the civilian leadership who sent him there.

slacker
Did your Mommy let you use the computer today? Did she make your lunch for you? Where are your girlfriends Rocker and Uber?

How many attacks have been made SUCCESSFULLY on American Soil since 09/11? How in the world can General Petraeus know what the future holds? Liberal Cowards and Traitors had their minds made up BEFORE Petraeus said ONE WORD!

Petraeus and Crocker told THE TRUTH and this confuses LIBERAL as they idolize Liars and Cowards.

Packrat
Read my posts and make an effort to understand them.

If you do, you will understand what is going on and why the Republican Presidential noninee, no matter who they are, or who the Democrat nominee, is will have a slim to none chance of winning the election next year. The war is going to be front and center as an election issue. Unless there is a recession - and that won't be good for Republicans either.

Note, I do not say no chance. The democrats always have an exquisite knack for shooting themselves in the foot. But if you are a Republican or Libertarian, that is a hope, not a strategy for winning.

slacker
To illustrate the point, I could make the same silly argument to the opposite of your conclusion. I could just as easily argue that his failure to reply "No" to the question means that he does believe it's making us safer. It would be a conclusion based on nothing but speculation, but no less valid then your argument.

Georgetwin
I will ignore your typical conservative name calling and slurs.

Get your facts straight. I never said Petraeus and Crocker did not tell the truth. I believe they did. The stakes are too high for them to knowingly lie or even shade the truth.

That is one reason why I believe Petraeus when he said he did not know the war was making America safer. You should believe him too.

What he did is put a noose around the republican nominee's kneck and hand the other end to the deomcrats on this important campaign issue.

What he did is clarify for all, except those too blindly in Bush's thrall, to see that this war was a HUGE miscalculation and mistake and that he and the military are doing their best to pick up the pieces. But we are FAR from knowing whether the potential catastrophes from 8 years of Bush/Cheney's leadership can be avoided.

apoplectic
Sorry, no cigar. To believe his failure to reply "No" to the question means that he does believe it's making us safer would be silly.

To think that, I would have to think that rather than say Yes or No he WANTED to hand the anti war factions a silver bullet and to throw Americans into a frenzy of doubt on this issue.

Nope, even you should be able to see that and read Petraeus well enough to know that he would not do that.

Sticking to Facts on the Ground
Why didn’t they ask Patraeus: “What is the meaning of life?”

Because that’s not his responsibility. Had he not answered would it mean there is no meaning of life? It’s not his job to make claims like that or about the looming question of the safety of the United States. Politicians and the people decide that. He is a General with a mission. He reports facts. Period. If they really wanted to get him with ‘gotcha tactics’ they could’ve asked him who he voted for in 2004. That would’ve really had the anti-war left fuming mad. “He’s a General and he can’t even tell us who he voted for!!!?”

The fact is, the other 99.999% of his testimony and the case for the war is devastating to the anti-war left. Which, of course, is the reason why he is a liar.

Apoplectic
You are REALLY reaching when you say

"Had he answered in the affirmative, the next question would be for him to explain why he feels that way... he would have been asked for data to back up that conclusion. Data which he in his role does not have..."

Try to force yourself to think. Rereading my previous posts will help guide you.

1) His organization is one of the key sources of the information required to make such a judgement. He is one of the people the administration would HAVE to consult with to form an answer to the question.

2) If asked why he feels that way, he could continue to be honest, say why he does. Then if pressed further, hand the microphone to the ambassador sitting next to him who IS responsible for understanding or rationale for being in this war and articulating it - to Congress and the Iraqis.

3) It is not unreasonable to expect a person leading men and women in a war to have an opinion on whether the war is benefiting America or not. It is therefore not unreasonable to interpret a refusal to answer the question with subsequent dissembling as doubt and uncertainty that the answer to the question is unequivocally yes.

Apoplectic and Kevin
You are REALLY reaching when you say

"Had he answered in the affirmative, the next question would be for him to explain why he feels that way... he would have been asked for data to back up that conclusion. Data which he in his role does not have..."

Try to force yourself to think. Rereading my previous posts will help guide you.

1) His organization is one of the key sources of the information required to make such a judgement. He is one of the people the administration would HAVE to consult with to form an answer to the question.

2) If asked why he feels that way, he could continue to be honest, say why he does. Then if pressed further, hand the microphone to the ambassador sitting next to him who IS responsible for understanding or rationale for being in this war and articulating it - to Congress and the Iraqis.

3) It is not unreasonable to expect a person leading men and women in a war to have an opinion on whether the war is benefiting America or not. It is therefore not unreasonable to interpret a refusal to answer the question with subsequent dissembling as doubt and uncertainty that the answer to the question is unequivocally yes.

By the way Kevin,
You are VERY naive when you say liberals are mad that he did not answer the question.

Take a look at Chris Matthews. The most partisan of them are (unfortunately in my opinion because I wish the war WERE making us safer) positively unable to contain their JOY that he did not say the answer to the question was yes.

slacker
"Sorry, no cigar. To believe his failure to reply "No" to the question means that he does believe it's making us safer would be silly.

To think that, I would have to think that rather than say Yes or No he WANTED to hand the anti war factions a silver bullet and to throw Americans into a frenzy of doubt on this issue."

Which is of course the point. Silly, yes, but no less valid. You are speculating about a non-answer for which you don't even understand the context.

Slacker
>>”It is not unreasonable to expect a person leading men and women in a war to have an opinion on whether the war is benefiting America or not.”

"Benefiting"? Get your language right at least. Or is that programmed?

It simply doesn’t matter if he had answered ‘yes’ or ‘no’ or ‘maybe’. The answer to that question, although important, should not direct the immediate future of the war. It’s that simple. There are other aspects of humanity to consider as well. Don’t forget, he was also asked what would happen if we left. Oh, but he has no credibility there, I forgot.

Cherry-pickin’ must be hard work.

Apoplectic
Now you are slandering Petraeus. To accuse him of WANTING to throw the nation in to confusion about whether the war is good or bad for America's security is something I don't think even the most partisan left would do.

Your are only doing that because you have nothing intelligent to say and don't want to admit you are wrong.

Admit it. You are defeated and have no credibile argument. Stop beating a dead horse and face up to the fact that your faith in this administration's war is based on delusions.

Kevin
Do not confuse me as someone who believes we should get out of Iraq immediately. I am on record above and in many other places that this is impossible.

I have never said Petraeus lied about anything in his testimony. I have never said there are not been some benefits from the surge.

Having said that, it does matter if he answered yes or no, because it will impact the next election in ways I explained but you apparently do not understand. It may not be the only or even deciding factor but it will have an impact. You will see the clip in democrat ads. The impact on liberals and the majority of Americans who are moderate or independent really DOES matter.

That is not cherry picking. It is seeing the world as it is.

Army Vet
First, killing Muqtada Al Sadr will not make his brigade go away. Like it or not, he represents a significant portion of Iraqi society. That doesn't make him a good guy but I suspect that he will have to be a significant figure in any political reconciliation. Killing him will only make that reconciliation more difficult. We cannot "kill" our way out of this mess.

Second, you indictment of war critics is misplaced. This war had overwhelming support in its beginning. The major failures were in this very time. We disbanded the Iraqi army, fired all Bathists, bungled the reconstruction and in general did everything wrong.

Lastly, among my liberal friends I have heard no one criticize the troops. I repeat, no one.

Why do defenders of this war continue to assert that any criticism of the war is an attack on the troops. Do you not have any reasoned response to criticisms of the policy?

Criticisms of this war are directed at policy maker and in a democracy that is our partiotic duty.

asking again
What is there to be won in Iraq? What is victory?
By they way bloggers, I am safe...I don't need the American military in Iraq to protect me.
WHAT IS WINNING.....TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT IS TO BE WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh i know.....MONEY~~~~

slacker
"Now you are slandering Petraeus. To accuse him of WANTING to throw the nation in to confusion about whether the war is good or bad for America's security is something I don't think even the most partisan left would do.

Your are only doing that because you have nothing intelligent to say and don't want to admit you are wrong."

Oh so now you pretend to know my thoughts as well. Didn't realize this was the psychic hotline blog. You wouldn't know intelligence if it bit you on the A$$.




slacker
It is easily possible to read and understand your comments and still come to a different conclusion.

You seem able to do that yourself, with the comments of others. Let us stipulate up front that no one is stupid for doing so.

The bottom line on the question to Petraeus about America's security is that it was not his question to answer. There are exactly three people on the face of the earth who have the charter to answer that question to Congress: the President, the Secretary of Defense, and the National Security Advisor.

There are some others in the executive branch who are eligible to express an opinion, such as SecState and the Director of the CIA. One of these very few individuals can delegate the authority to speak for him, to a subordinate with the appropriate job description.

Petraeus' job description doesn't include judging how secure the United States is. He did not go into the hearing with a charter from SECDEF or the President to speak for them on this matter, nor would he ever: he is a theater of war commander, and is not accountable for the security of the United States. Both executive civilians and military officers in responsible positions are well aware that they speak accountably whenever they open their mouths; they will not speak OUTSIDE their area of accountability. Petraeus may not have been prepared to allude gracefully to this reality, but he came up with the right response anyway.

Next time the House has SECDEF or the National Security Advisor testifying, they should ask this question. Those individuals are accountable for answering it on the President's behalf.

dyerje
There are 2 points I am making. You addressed only one of them.

Point 1:
You make it sound as if Petraeus should not have even attempted to answer the question. I don't agree with you. But assuming Petraeus felt that way, he should have said that. After all, as I pointed out the Ambassador to Iraq was sitting next to him. The Ambassador should know what our military and non-military objectives and achievements are and Petraeus did not choose to refer the question. Instead he gave his honest answer. I repeat: HE DID NOT SAY IT IS NOT HIS QUESTION TO ANSWER or give that as a reason for not answering. HE SAID HE had not thought much about it and DID NOT KNOW THE ANSWER.

It is amazing that he has not thought about it. I doubt there is not a single American who has not thought about it and formed an opinion. He must be the only one. Again, he did not say his opinions were private and not his place to give in a public forum. He said he had not thought about it and did not know.

POINT 2:
The real damage to conservative candidates for President not on record as opposing Bush's invasion and job as commander in chief is that Petraeus is on record in a clip that can run again and again saying he does not know if the war has made America safer.

Even if it HAS made America safer (which I do NOT believe) Petraeus's blessing of the doubt that liberals and democrats are running on will have a significant affect on the election.

This must be this week'stalking point
For the next week we're going to be seeing our more liberal friends here repeating ad nauseum about how Gen Petraeus thinks we're safe or not.
I expect to see "betray us" bumper stickers on the freeway anytime.

Anyone with more than 2 functioning brain cells and actually Watched the hearings,(as opposed to the Kos cliff notes) would already know that this was a classic "Gotcha" question. It wouldn't matter if the General had said yes, no, maybe,or got up and did a little jig like ashley simpson, The dems had plans to twist it around and use it for a weapon. As so many here have already done today.


Since so many here just can't seem to grasp the concept of Fact, let me make it very simple for you.

General Petraeus is a Field Officer. His job is o go where his CinC tells him to do, and report on the Facts on the field. Period
His job is Not to set policy, or give his opinion on said policy. He said he didn't know because It wasn't his job to know!
You can say that he should have given hisopinion, but again, that's not his job.

First he's a liar, now he is too incompetent to answer a simple question.

Wow, you lefties sure have a firm grasp on the nuances of life don't you? next week you'll be calling him a baby killer.

Do you brush your teeth after all that crap falls out of your mouth?


no 100% military solution
" 'We are not going to kill our way out of all these problems in Iraq,' he explained. 'You're not going to kill or capture all of the Sadr militia any more than we are going to kill or capture all the insurgents in Iraq.'

I'm going to quote this line from Petraeus the next time any Republican claims that our army can win the Iraq War all by itself.

Because when critics of the Iraq War have attempted to make that same point, they are instantly smeared as "defeatists," "apologists for terrorism," "liberals," "Dhimmicrats," and every other epithet at the Republicans' command.

It's nice to see Petraeus offer a REALISTIC, not ROSY-COLORED, assessment of U.S. progress.

Army vet
Army vet writes: "The Democrats, the MSM and the RINO Republicans in the US need to shut up "

Last I checked, America was still a free society and any American citizen had a right to speak his mind.

NO ONE is going to shut up just because you or Bush demand it. GO TO HELL. Understand THAT?

for slacker
slacker writes: "We are there for a decade or more. The real question is what should our troops be doing there. It is clear Bush doesn't have a clue."

Agreed 100%.

I do NOT want our forces to just flee from Iraq and let the place fall apart or fall into the hands of jihadists.

But I do want a different team leading the war effort--a team that is NOT beholden to the Bushies in any way.

I'm willing to support a Republican Administration again PROVIDED it makes it clear that it intends to take a fresh look at the whole War on Terror, not just accept the Bush approach hook line and sinker.

for Packrat
Packrat writes: "Do you happen to remeber " we will be out of Bosnia by Christmas"
Silly, I thought Clinton meant that year."

How many casualties have our forces taken in Bosnia these last 6 years?

Last I checked, the total Americans killed and wounded in the Iraq War is now up to around 28,000.

A great American called a liar
Harry Reid calls the surge a failure even before it is fully implemented. Chuck Schumer calls the obvious success done in spite of our troops.
This is their way of supporting the military? Which is it?

General Petraeus belives in Duty, Honor, Country. Democrats in congress and their hate group MoveOn.org have gone overboard and owe Petraeus and the American people an apology.

Guess I'm 1 for 1
... slacker, since I only intended to address one of your points. I met my objective.

Yes, I'm saying that Petraeus was right to refrain from commenting on how the progress in Iraq is affecting US security. Saying "I don't know" and "I hadn't thought about it" is an inelegant way of doing so. But only if you operate from specific prior assumptions can you deduce that these expressions are code for "I think there's no connection between Iraq and US national security, and I'm fumbling for words to avoid saying that."

Clearly you do operate from the prior assumptions required to reach that conclusion. Enjoy.

As a point of information, Ambassador Crocker is not charged with assessing Iraq's implications for US national security either, so Petraeus would not have been correct to refer the question to him. The quick-thinking response would have been something like, "Well, that's Secretary Gates' department. What I can tell you is what's going on in Iraq today."

This was an accountable political situation for Petraeus. What he said mattered. Therefore, he was not going to comment on things outside his assigned purview.

The interesting thing is that if Petraeus had instead replied, "Oh, yes, sir, in my judgment the progress of the surge strategy in Iraq has materially enhanced US security" -- in that event, I feel pretty sure you would be accusing him of being a rehearsed, mendacious carrier of Bush's political water rather than an honest man.

We all operate from our assumptions and premises. It's not criminal or dishonest to have different ones. It does get tiresome to see people assail each other over "honesty" or whatever when the truth is, they operate from different basic premises.
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