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Wednesday, August 22, 2007
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Test Case for Abolishing Family
by Terry Jeffrey
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As odd is it might seem, the next to last day of 2003 may someday be seen as a fateful moment for the traditional family. That is the when the United States Drug Enforcement Agency busted a pair of methamphetamine dealers in Philadelphia.

In a remarkable example of the corrosive force liberalism exerts on our society, the arrest of these drug dealers led to an opinion issued July 31 by U.S. District Judge Marvin Katz that -- if sustained by the Supreme Court -- could erase the special status marriage and the traditional family enjoy in American law.

On Dec. 30, 2003, DEA agents intercepted a FedEx package headed from Phoenix to a Philadelphia apartment shared by Steven Roberts and Daniel Mangini. The agents determined it contained 100 grams of methamphetamine and covertly completed its delivery, which was accepted by Mangini.

According to an indictment later filed by U.S. Attorney Patrick Meehan, federal investigators discovered that Roberts and Mangini "were in possession of drug paraphernalia inside the residence, including materials for packaging drugs, material for weighing drugs, and material for storing drugs and drug proceeds." They also discovered $2,788 in cash, a methamphetamine stash over and above the 100 grams in the FedEx package, and documents describing the roommates' "involvement in the distribution of methamphetamine."

It was an open-and-shut case, and Roberts and Mangini apparently knew it. When a judge let them out on bail -- on "the condition that they not leave the Eastern District of Pennsylvania without permission" -- they fled. Federal marshals tracked them to Florida and hauled them back to face justice.

The U.S. attorney issued an ominous press release declaring they could face "life imprisonment," and they soon cut a deal. Each pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to distribute methamphetamine. Mangini was sentenced to 18 months prison and five years of probation; Roberts to 30 months in prison and five years of probation.

When they were released, both were subject to Standard Condition No. 9 of federal probation, which says that a convicted felon on probation "shall not associate with any person convicted of a felony, unless granted permission to do so by the probation officer." Mangini's and Roberts' probation officers did not give them permission to associate with each other.

This is when the conviction of two drug dealers was converted into an opportunity to change the legal status of the traditional family.

Assisted by attorneys from the American Civil Liberties Union, Roberts and Mangini brought a case in federal court.

The rules for enforcing Standard Condition No. 9, it turns out, include a blanket exception that allows a convicted felon on probation to associate with another convicted felon if they are spouses or blood relatives. Mangini and Roberts claimed this unfairly discriminated against them, violating their rights to "due process" and equal protection of the law under the Fifth Amendment.

"They considered, and still consider, themselves to be spouses," Judge Katz explained in his July 31 opinion. "Defendants were in every way a family."

The judge pointed out that the two men took in Roberts' niece as a foster child; and at one point in his opinion, he called them the niece's "two fathers."

Initially ruling on the case in January, Katz opined that the men's constitutional claim "may have merit," but that he could not rule on it because he lacked jurisdiction. Then in early July, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit ruled that Katz did have jurisdiction and sent the case back to him.

Katz now swung for the fences. Citing Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 Supreme Court decision which absurdly held that the Constitution prohibits states from banning same-sex sodomy, he declared: "The Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution protects the right to intimate association."

Because of this, he argued, probation rules must treat two unmarried men who claim an "intimate association" just as if they were a married couple or a brother and a sister. "The Probation Office has violated defendants' Fifth Amendment right to equal protection by refusing to grant defendants permission to associate with each other, while maintaining a policy of granting such permission to similarly situated individuals in other kinds of family relationships (i.e., siblings, parent and child, and spouses)," he said.

Many Americans have been worried that a federal judge will declare same-sex marriage a right. In fact, Judge Katz's decision goes beyond that. It suggests that government must treat all claimed "intimate associations" equally.

If that becomes the law of the land, three drug dealers living together in the same apartment, or even a commune full of 1960s hippies, will become the legal equivalent of mom and dad.

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About The Author

Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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well, guess what?
There is a reference to exactly what I'm saying at http://www.andrewsullivan.com
There is an article, Alan Tulchin at livescience about same sex notorized unions in medieval Europe.
There were called 'afrerements'. or brotherments.
And the documents referred to the same sex couple sharing their property together.

There are far more references and information in the book I mentioned. It's a very thick book. Over a thousand pages.
I've mentioned before that those who have written history in the last 400 centuries, have left women and people of color and homosexuals out of it as if people from these groups made no significant contributions, were never participants in traditional institutions or made any sacrifices that weren't their due as someone else's chattel.
Of course, when all else in this debate fails, the cop out is to revert to Scripture or references by the usual suspects who are straight men...
These are supremacists values.
Not that of compassionate and truly enlightened people.
Easy to deny those who you think can't be, or never were as great as yourselves.
We've been there and done that before....and it was a huge mistake.


refer to the book, "Homosexuality and ..
I'll try and find the book this reference is from, it's called "Homosexuality and Civilization". It think one of the authors is named Lofton.
Sorry, it's been a while.
Those of you who said NO homosexual marriages have never been done or accepted, areq quite wrong about that.
The evidence of same sex ceremonies here in America among Native Americans, and in Europe sanctioned by the Church. Has been hidden or purged, but found and researched as authentic.
In Spain and France, lesbians and gay men WERE married by the church as long as they bequeathed significant property to the Church. Something that could be done, since these couples were not expected to produce heirs. So MONIED gay people could have this blessing.
This is an extension of a similarly mercenary move by the church to edict celibacy for priests.
So that there would be no family to compete with the material wealth the priest might have.
Not all cultures have rejected homosexuality. But with the incursion of Christianity throughout the world, such activity was brutally repressed.
Wow, it's no surprise how uninformed so many are here. And dismissive and limited in thought on this.

USA - Same sex marriage
May Allah guide the Iranian's atomic missiles to completely destroy this place of iniquity, called the USA.

Thinking of which....
on what possible basis (and in respect to which remarks?) could you say: "Your answers ranged from concise and coherent to silly and ignorant.."

Specifics, please!

On what possible basis could you say:
"You seem quite sad to me. :("

Hmmmm?

MellorSJ2, thank you for your time...
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Your answers ranged from concise and coherent to silly and ignorant but I appreciated the opportunity to know how you think.

While I appreciate your time, I also kind of pity your life. You seem quite sad to me. :(

Glad you asked
Chris writes: "Luis is, admittedly, less than pursuasive and only semi-literate but is he a bigot? Probably."

I rather like "less than persuasive", but I still think "moron" is more accurate.

"My question is about what seems to be the changing definition of bigot in the 21st century:

"Am I a bigot if I call homosexuals "perverts"?"

Yes.

"Am I a bigot if I oppose redefining marriage?"

Depends on your rationale.

"Is Terrence Jeffrey a bigot for writing the above article?"

Not for writing it, which appears to be entirely factual. One has to wonder about his motivation, though.

"Am I a bigot if I agree with him?"

You agree with the facts presented? Or you agree with his assertion that this ruling abolishes or changes the definition of marriage. The latter would make you a credulous fool.

"Am I a bigot if I think the Muslim religion is inherently evil?"

Religion is inherently evil. Read Hitchens, eg. Yet people who hold evil beliefs may be quite harmless.

"Am I a bigot if I think Mormonism is anti-Christian?"

Who cares how many angels dance on the head of pin?

"Am I a bigot if I desire to see ALL people come to know Christ and repent from the sin that will send them to hell?"

Nope. Merely sadly deluded.

Chris writes:
Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 2:48 PM
"Lon, uh, "Eskuuoose me??"
...The ACLU is a blight on our country."
=====================
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever two consenting adults
do in their private lives is none of my business. However, there is a big difference between private lives and changing society's rules.

Judges should not be be making laws!

An interesting note: The two lesbians who started the whole mess in Massachusetts were divorced within a year or so!


renny writes:
Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 11:26 AM
"Marriagea is not just
declaring one's self in love with something. It is defined by law. In the US, that is state law..."
=====================
and if you are unfortunate enough to live in the state of Massachusetts, a state supreme court can declare that the traditional family is no longer the accepted form of marriage.

And if you try to allow the VOTERS - that is, the ACTUAL RESIDENTS!! - of the state to have the opportunity to affirm or deny this declaration of law by a few unelected officials, well, forget it! The state legislature (of course, under Democrat leadership) refused to allow the vote unless they were assured it would fail. Even so, had it by chance passed, the new governor (Democrat) would not have allowed this VERY IMPORTANT decision to go to the VOTERS for their approval.

So...if you want to see what it is like to live in an unrepresentative part of the country, move to Massachusetts!

MellorSJ2 "dumbing down" the term bigot?
Luis is, admittedly, less than pursuasive and only semi-literate but is he a bigot? Probably.

My question is about what seems to be the changing definition of bigot in the 21st century:

Am I a bigot if I call homosexuals "perverts"?

Am I a bigot if I oppose redefining marriage?

Is Terrence Jeffrey a bigot for writing the above article?

Am I a bigot if I agree with him?

Am I a bigot if I think the Muslim religion is inherently evil?

Am I a bigot if I think Mormonism is anti-Christian?

Am I a bigot if I desire to see ALL people come to know Christ and repent from the sin that will send them to hell?

Just wondering...

Stop shouting, Luis
We already know you're a bigotted moron.

WarlordX
WarlordX writes: Thursday, August, 23, 2007 2:54 PM
Sexuality vs. marriage
It is disappointing to see and read the hyperbole regarding homosexuality. What gives anyone the right to judge, or criticize an adult individual's biological need for sexual fulfillment? Americans in general are much too involved in the sex lives of their fellow citizens. Could it be envy? Mind your own relationships.

I WOULD LOVE TO MIND MY OWN RELATIONSHIP, AS WOULD ALL CLEAR THINKING PEOPLE WOULD, AS IT USED TO BE BEFORE THE HOMOSEXUALS AND THE HOMOSEXUALISTS STARTED FEELING THEIR OATS, BUT THE HOMOSEXUALS AND THE HOMOSEXUALISTS KEEP PUSHING THE FILTHY HOMOSEXUAL PERVERSIONS IN OUR FACES. WHEN THE HOMOSEXUALS AND HOMOSEXUALS FLAUNT THEIR PROBLEMS AS TROPHIES, THEN I HAVE THE RIGHT TO JUDGE AND CRITICIZE AN ADULT'S NEED FOR SEXUAL FULFILLMENT.

WarlordX, what are you talking about?
It is important to recognize and enforce contracts. It is important to ensure that both parties to a contract live up to their obligations outlined in a contract. What does that have to do with sexuality or marriage?

Get a contract with your partner, form a legal partnership, legally change your name to the same surname as your partner. But DON't try to enforce a governmental redefining of marriage!

A government that traditionally "proclaims the equality of its individuals UNDER THE LAW" should also uphold the tradition "that ENDORSES and ENCOURAGES traditional marriage as the BEST societal setting for raising children and maintaining the values that made this the greatest country in history."

(where did THAT quote come from... gosh, he sounds smart! =))

MellorSJ2 writes:
"Then why, Chris...? ...is it called the " 'Defense' of Marriage Act"? "

Because the instution of marriage - one-man-one-woman - that was created centuries before the Pilgrims were even born, is under attack by rogue courts and looney leftists.

This is a crucial battle to see the continuation of a great government tradition that ENDORSES and ENCOURAGES traditional marriage as the BEST societal setting for raising children and maintaining the values that made this the greatest country in history.

Are these people dim or just seditious?

Sexuality vs. marriage
It is disappointing to see and read the hyperbole regarding homosexuality. What gives anyone the right to judge, or criticize an adult individual's biological need for sexual fulfillment? Americans in general are much too involved in the sex lives of their fellow citizens. Could it be envy? Mind your own relationships.

Marriage (regardless who it is with) consists of two parts: The moral, religious, or societal norm established by the larger group (majority); hence: church weddings for people who never go to church otherwise.

Secondly, in a nation that proclaims the equality of its individuals UNDER THE LAW, marriage is seen simply as a LEGAL CONTRACT enforced by the state (see divorce laws) that sets out rights and responsibilities of those involved. The sex of the partners has no place in that context. And stupid, ad hominem arguments about brothers marrying, or, dogs and birds etc. just don't apply. Committed, legal relationships strengthen society; who has consensual sex with whom is none of your business.

Then why, Chris...?
...is it called the '"Defense" of Marriage Act'?

Lon wrote
"...how does repecting this couple's relationship hurt your heterosexual marraige? Is your marraige really that frail? Does working to destry {Lon's spelling} this other relationship somehow strengthen your marraige?"

Build a straw man then argue against it. Let me be clear, oh foolish Lon; I don't respect ANY sexual relationship outside of marriage ESPECIALLY when they bring children into the equation. I don't respect ANY criminals OR their illicit relationships.

The strength of my marriage and family are dependent on my covenant with God, my covenant with my wife, and our covenant with our offspring. NOBODY else's "relationship" can strengthen OR weaken my marriage. I hope we cleared some things up for you.

Luis
I agree with you completely. I was just wondering if jdw would consider this person a man. I would.

This wouldn't even be an issue
if drugs were legal, and available at the local pharmacy where they belong.

MikeR: that homosexual would not...
MikeR writes: Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 3:34 PM
jdw
"...what if an adult male served honorably in the military, took care of his parents, worked hard at his job, always paid his taxes, voted, looked out for his neighbors and never lied stole or purposely set out to hurt anyone; but happens to be gay."

I don't think that homosexual would flaunt his problem or do what the homosexualists do to offend society.

Here we go, more judicial activism
If you liberals want to change the law, file a petition, rally the base, vote! If the oxymoronic "gay marriage" is a good virtue and a right, no doubt you can get the people's votes on it. Or are you only populist when it's convenient to you? stop using the courts as a bludgeon to impose your morals on the rest of us.

re: Lolo
Lolo wrote:

"You get my vote for the single most dumbest statement of the day! ..."

>>>>>

And you just proved that you are as stupid as BadBoy.


-----------------------------------------------------


"... Any child psycologist and child behavoirist will tell you teenagers are not adults."

>>>>>

And you're illiterate.

I never wrote or said that teenagers ~are~ adults.

NOT being and adult, however, is NOT the same as being a child.

Saying they're ~not~ children is ~NOT~ the same as saying that they are adults, either.



re: BadBoy
BadBoy wrote:

"If you wanna be an apologist for some letch in his mid-40's who charms a 17 year old work place subordinate into the rack, that's your business..."

>>>>>

Are you ~really~ that stupid!?

Never once did I write ~anything~ that condoned Studds' behavior. I ~correctly~ admonished your incorrect, and moronic, use of the word "child" to describe a 17-year-old.


-----------------------------------------------------


"... And while we're at it, let's get rid of all the "liberal" reforms regarding child welfare that were so popular back in the day. You know, that antiquated stuff dealing with child labor, compulsory public education to age 16, juvenile justice codes, parental child support obligations, statutory rape laws, etc. Heck, if you really wanna make kids grow up in a hurry, let's stick 'em in the army as soon as their gonads start to function. That will override any tendency toward arrested emotional development."

>>>>>

Yep. I guess you really ~are~ THAT stupid.

''Hard cases make bad law"
--
The moral of this story isn't the "social conservative" nutcase panic about gay marriage but rather about the "social conservative" nutcase position on stupidly stringent conditions of probation or parole.

These two guys broke the law (how stupid the law itself happens to be set aside for the moment), and there's really no effective way of preventing them from conniving together - or with any other lawbreaker(s) - at similar criminous actions.

They were living together, sharing expenses and responsibilities as many unmarried people do, before and during their criminal activities, just as (the parole and probation systems freely admit) the members of married couples automatically do.

And married couples aren't broken up just because of the rote and routine "shall not associate with any person convicted of a felony" condition in all sentencing boilerplate.

What does the public gain from ramming this condition down upon these two guys?

Nothing.

What does it lose?

The prospect of maintaining the "social conservatives" precious prohibition of gay marriage.

I'd say you guys just got hoist with your own petard.

Again.

Jeez, are you *ever* gonna learn?
--

Vocabulary Check
Any adult of sound......

Marriage
Anybody adult of sound mind and body can marry in this country. Even if you are homosexual, however, marriage is the union of a man and a woman. A man and a man or a woman and a woman can live togather in an intimate relationship, it's just not a marriage. Just because one is gay doesn't mean you can change history or traditions.

Nobody makes you like our culture, if your hatred of our culture is so great, find another culture to live in. There isn't enough gay people to change our culture, so live with it.

Ran, please re-read my earlier post
Ran, you misunderstand me. My point was a simple one: conservatives should especially be encouraging the idea of gay marriage because it will promote among homosexuals exactly the sort of committed, monogamous lifestyle that conservatives value. Even for religious conservatives who view homosexuality as sinful, promiscuity ultimately must be viewed, at least as a practical matter in a secular society, as the greater sin.

But I myself am neither religious nor conservative. I also have my own reasons for liking the idea of gay marriage (wink, wink).

Hatred of Christians
Christians (and Jews) have given the West (and the world) the Magna Carta (even rulers come under the law), AS common law (trial by jury), English Constitution (unwritten), the idea of "just war," the Napoleonic Code (law in Fr., It., Sp., and Mx.), the Mayflower Pact, the Dec. of Ind., the US Constitution, the Emancipation Proclamation, and a free West, and most of the Eastern Pacific rim.

What other religion or culture has done that?

The US, a significantly Christian nation, alone in the 19th-20th C.'s freed a billion people. When Lincoln issued the Em. Proc., Alexander I of Russia freed his serfs. When we won the Spn-Am. War in 1898, we ended slavery thoughout the Spn. Empire.

Christianity has been "hated" since the 70s because of 1) abortion and 2) homosexualtiy.

Red is Blue
Let's try a hypothetical argument.

What if the color red decided one day this it wanted to be called blue, because more people liked blue than red.

Now orange and green saw this and said it was unfair that red should get to be called blue so they also wanted to be called blue.

Eventually all the colors were called blue, which made the word blue meaningless because it no longer specified anything unique.

From what I can see this is the basic argument of this article. Either marriage means something unique or it means nothing.

Perhaps some of you don't care, because you don't think that having a societal definition of marriage or family is very important. Fine I disagree and would love to argue the point.

For those of you who do think we should have legal and societal definition of family, but don't think this case affects it, read the last sentence of the article again and answer this question. If 2 gay men can be a "family" then why not 3 gay men, or 2 gay men and a women, or 3 men and 3 women and a parrot. In other words how would you define the word marriage or the word family in such a way that they still mean something?

Talk about projection
Our lib friends and gay activists call Christians bigots while their posts show exactly what they are projecting: bigot as defined by Merriam-Webster:

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Seems like the people that are obstinately and intolerantly devoted to the so called gay "rights" treat and regard Christians with hatred and intolerance.

Liberty First
You get my vote for the single most dumbest statement of the day!

Any child psycologist and child behavoirist will tell you teenagers are not adults.

Homosexuals have never
married anywhere at any time.

Why they should be allowed to do so now is a matter of law. To get laws passed, democracies require gov't representatives devise legislation, pass it, and have an executive or administrator sign it.

Democracies are conducted by majority vote, with consideration of minorities, but not meaning monorities get to tell the total population what they want and automatically achieve their goal of the moment.

A decade ago, gays were saying "marriage" was not an issue. How fast times change. The Russian Revolution abolished ecclesiastical "hearth" marriage, legalized birth control, abortion, incest, homosexuality, and all births whether or not within marriage. After 20 years of a disintegrating society, Stalin returned to awarding marriage special privileges and re-banned those sexual practices previously considered anti-social.

If gays want to campaign to elect state legislators to vote for homosexual marriage and all the special categories of privilege (although not always fed. taxes) that have traditionally accrued to heterosexual marriage, they may do so to their hearts desire.

They generally don't want to pursue that route because the majority does not want to fulfill their agenda. Ergo, they constantly appeal to courts to legislate for them, and be doing so, get a result that the majority would never accept. It's a backdoor non-transparent process and threatens US legislative procedure. You cannot simply use individual judges to serve as tyrants imposing vast social change due to organized pressure groups. Use that pressure to get yourself a maj. of legislators to vote for your cause.

Blacks used this route for the Brown decision in 1956, but that initial case was later supported buy fed. leg. in the Voting Rights and Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and the extension of the Civil Rights Act in 1972. Gays need to follow a similar pattern or their goals will never be democatically legitimate.

Leo
Christianity is not the only religion that does not approve of homosexuality. Keep that in mind.

People have a right to disagree with what you think is right, and they have a right to vote as they see fit. You try to take that away, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Your comments, your generalizations, about Christians being mean, low, bigots etc.. do nothing but make you look like a whiner. How mad does it make you when people say that all gays are pedophiles? That riles you up dosen't it? I can disagree with homosexuality, gay marriage, gays adopting etc, without hating gays. Ive talked to several gay members of TH and we get along ok. (Matthew and Will to name a few) You need to chill out, no ones is dragging gay people out into the street and lynching them, and all your attitude does is cause more hate and discontent towards gays in general. I will never vote in favor of "gay rights", but even as a Christian i can get along and be civil with gay people. What a concept huh?

re: BadBoy
BadBoy wrote:

"Jerry Studds. He had sex with a 17 year old. If you're under 18, you're a minor.

...

"Jerry Studds didn't break any laws, and the liasions were consensual, but don't tell me he didn't bugger a child when in fact he did..."

>>>>>>

Are Americans REALLY this stupid now?

Here's a hint for all you insipid, hysterical, save-the-children whackos: childhood ends at adolescence.

Teenagers are ~not~ children.

So, no. Jerry Studds did ~not~ "bugger a child". The individual had grown out of childhood some time before the liasons.



It's no wonder our young adults can't handle adulthood responsibly these days. They're raised by idiots that keep telling them they're children, even into their late teens and early twenties, instead of being prepared for adulthood ...

Chris
Why do you think what you said answered the question I asked? "What exactly is gained by keeping this couple apart, other than heterosexuals getting to feel superior because their relationships are protected by law?"

Your reply was that "This "couple" is not married; that is the issue."

But that was not the issue in the court case. The issue was whether the two men who had been a couple for 20 years and had fostered a child together would to see each other and rebuild their relationship. There was no question here of letting them marry.

You also do not answer the other question I asked which is how does repecting this couple's relationship hurt your heterosexual marraige? Is your marraige really that frail? Does working to destry this other relationship somehow strengthen your marraige?

jdw
You really haven’t answered much. What does it mean in real life? For example, what if an adult male served honorably in the military, took care of his parents, worked hard at his job, always paid his taxes, voted, looked out for his neighbors and never lied stole or purposely set out to hurt anyone; but happens to be gay. How is he not a man? Seriously, what does it take?

Still don't get it
Marriage is falling apart even without the presence of gays and gay marriage. If the small percentage of gays that want to marry did, I dare say the collapse of hetero marriage would continue and then be blamed on gays.
I oppose same sex marriage too, but I fear it will be blamed for what is already happening, and fear it even more so for that.
Make marriage a real, and not so easily unilaterally cancelable deal, and I promise gays will flee that institution preferring some kind of breakable civil contract to keep one after another in a box of memorabilia.

Lon, uh, "Eskuuoose me??"
"...it is hard to see how anyone with the basic humanity can be happy with the idea that this couple of 20 years would be prevented from trying to rebuild their lives after serving their time in jail. What exactly is gained by keeping this couple apart, other than heterosexuals getting to feel superior because their relationships are protected by law?"

This "couple" is not married; that is the issue. Also, if progressives gain control and even gain the support of a majority to "redefine marriage", gays will still NEVER achieve marriage. Marriage was never defined by our government in any way. The age-old TRADITION of marriage and family has simply been RECOGNIZED by our government as a societally beneficial institution; as the BEST situation in which to raise children.

Governments DID NOT create marriage and governments CAN NOT define OR redefine marriage. Marriage IS and ALWAYS WILL BE a covenant between one man and one woman. Even my four-year-old knows that; of course, he's an exceptional child with a beautiful mother and a loving proud father (a REAL family).

The "couple" in question may have had legal standing and contractual rights BEFORE they committed their crime but they FORFEITED those rights WHEN THEY BROKE THE LAW. The ACLU is a blight on our country.

MikeR
Manhood is an ideal that boys used to be taught to strive for. When your very basic nature is duplicitous, you can't be a man.

The homosexual lifestyle is incompatible with the ideal defined in "man".


And I repeat for the cheap seats: homosexuals can get married; just find a willing member of the opposite sex.

I prefer driving cars to riding horses. If I want to enter the Kentucky Derby, I better be sitting in the saddle of a horse, and not in the seat of a Porsche. If I don't want to do that, then I can't be in the race, no matter what my feelings on the matter are.


oops
I missed saying the man/woman couple unmarried with children who make up MANY THOUSANDS of criminals engaged in drug dealing and using.
And it's many gay couples that end up adopting their crack babies.

No end to throwing stones from glass houses when it comes to articles on gay people.

oh PULEEZE!!
So Jeffrey finds a CRIMINAL case with a gay couple in it to tarnish the idea of what gay couples do TYPICALLY?
Again, it becomes a screed on gay couples and the weakening of the family and marriage.
Well, well...it IS pathetic! Because I can tell you from just living in the world AND my experience with LAPD that the man/woman who are cohabiting and unmarried with biological children make up MANY THOUSANDS of people typical in this entire country!
And the law requires if they were colluding in the drug dealing that one may testify or strike a deal against the other, but if ONE of them isn't involved, than they might not have the fifth amendment protection.
But NOT being married IS the choice of heterosexual couples, and gay couples DO NOT have that option.

The judge's ruling was based on the long term and committed situation this couple was in, and STATES typically have different common law degrees in which to work with a criminal situation.
There are many thousands of gay couples, raising children with honor and much devotion and safely WITHOUT the benefits of marriage. As are many heterosexual couples who DO have the benefit. Which makes gay couples more commendable for that reason alone.
Reduce gay couples all you want to body parts, lust and lack of commitment. But reality isn't borne out by highlighting this single issue as if it typifies gay couples everywhere.
Scooter, you are seriously in need of help with this obssession of yours.

Leo, is there any limit to...
Leo writes: Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 11:35 AM
renny
Once again you refuse to see the point: gays can never marry thanks to zealots like you...

DISCUSSED ABOVE

So what you are saying is that soceity should have the power to dismantle ga gay relationship just because it can? And you see no problem with that as long as gays get hurt and are specifically targeted?

I AM SAYING THAT THESE METH DEALERS/USERS DESERVE TO SUFFER GREATLY, THEY SHOULD HAVE NO ACCOMODATIONS, SOMETHING THAT HOMOSEXUALS SPEND A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO GET, BECAUSE OF THEIR CONDITION.

How meanspirited and petty can you get to quote Ran? I know that you don't give a damn about gay lives but is it necessary to intentionally seek to punish them for being gay? Do you think that gay criminals bneed to be treated more harshly than straights?

HOMOSEXUAL CRIMINALS NEED, AND DESERVE, TO BE TREATED EXACTLY AS ANY OTHER CRIMINAL.

Is there any limit in the evil you wish to see happen to gays?

DISCUSSED ABOVE

...the punishment that homosexuals wish on themselves by looking for love up the digestive tract of another person? Don't bother telling me that heterosexuals do that also: It's terrible in that case also, and those heterosexuals deserve all of the sickness that comes to them from that behavior.

Leo, homosexuals can't get married...
Leo writes: Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 10:29 AM
gwco2skeptic
But because you bigots won't allow thenm to get married under any circunmstances...

...by definition. Marriage is for one man and one woman. It's not complicated.

jdw
How do you define “a man”? I’m at a loss as to why a homosexual can’t possibly be a man?

drt: incredible, simply incredible

Ran, you are wrong about...
Ran writes: Wednesday, August, 22, 2007 6:56 AM
Countryman
If you look how resident conservatives state their cases here, you might see that I'm very reasonable in my commentary.

People who constantly demean and devalue lives of all gays should be able to stand some scrutiny about their own behavior and reasoning.

And as usual you call straw amn any argument that shows a pattern how religious zealots seek intentionally to hurt individual gays as much as possible.

Like in Michigan where Christian sued universities that provided health care nbenefits to gay partners of their employeers, When gays lost the nbenefits Christians were stere to sneer and gloat and they toasted on the misery they caused.

Face the facts: nothing pleases a conservative as much a gay suffering.

...conservatives being pleased by homosexuals suffering. First, any suffering that they suffer, they cause themselves, they open themselves up to what they see as hurting, we are simply working to not allow them any special rights. Second, they are all a bunch of whiners--if they kept their perversions in the closet, there would simply be nothing to discuss.

Nazi Law in America
We have allowed Nazis, and in the case of Katz, a Jewish Nazi to become judges in America, and replace the US constitution with German law under Hitler.

Judge Katz is another example of morally lowering ourselves beneath the Third Reich.

Ran - hate-filled
bigot against Christians.

Well, take me on; an agnostic who recognizes homosexual appetites to be as much a mental/emotional illness as is a sexual attraction to children, animals, or objects. Notice, no Bible quotes.

Criminals should not be allowed to associate with other criminals while on probation. However, MARRIED criminals are one flesh, as the "Christianists" put it; a man and woman living together should have no more protection than should two homosexuals living together, or two business partners living together.

Aurorawatcher: "gay man" is an oxymoron. You cannot be a practicing homosexual and be a man. You can be male, but that's not the same as being a man.

And keep in mind, homosexuals CAN get married; all they have to do is find a willing member of the opposite sex. Nothing prevents them from getting married. "Homosexual" is not a race, or a 3rd sex. It is a mental illness, and an appetite.

Well, aurorawatcher, what does it take..
aurorawatcher says, 'That experience didn't sour BJ on gay people (although he insists he'd never have another gay roommate) and for years we were friendly acquaintances with the rather large gay community at a hotel where BJ was a facilities tech. We watched their sordid sortings and multiple arrangements and shook our heads at the mental illness that seemed so clear in that group.'

...to sour BJ on homosexuals' behavior? Broadminded fellow, that BJ.

'Now I work with three lesbians in the mental health community. Well, one actually married a man two years ago after she was abandoned by her long-time lesbian partner, so I guess she's not a lesbian anymore. At least, she says she's not and I'll agree with her. One of the other remaining lesbians is a very nice person who seems to understand that heterosexual means I don't swing either way. The other doesn't and she comes on to me regularly. She also believes that it's okay for young adult (20-30 y.o.) homosexuals to "assist" teens in "discovering their sexuality." Oddly enough, when the mating in question is between heterosexuals, she thinks the law ought to put the adult away, but not so when it's a homosexual situation. "That's different," she says. "You don't understand."

I understand, all right. All three of my coworkers "discovered" their homosexuality in the arms of a slightly adult woman while in their teens. The Houston teacher claimed he was "opening their eyes to their true sexuality."'

Yes, of course: Since homosexuals can't reproduce, they resort to prosyletizing, but call it discovering.

"It's a slippery slope we're standing on and the ice is hardening."

Actually, we've begun to slide down, but God is good, and we are going to correct this, have no doubts.

Leo
Bad company corrupts good character.


Leo
BTW the child was a child that was with Studds and lacking the maturity in the first place to make that decision.

Leo
First of all your stuck in the land of stereotype. Get off of the Christian mantra because your wrong. Your guilty of what you scream about the most...discrimination. You attack Christians about homosexuality yet there is no religion in the world that supports homosexuality and gay marriage. And yes it is about recidivism and drugs and crime because when the two get together they do a repeat. That is why the law was established in the first place. When felons get together they somehow have a way of committing more felonies.

Leo
BULLONEY! The same Liberal Lies as ever! Studds was a pervert, which Liberals find admirable! Why are Liberals and Gays Obsessed with sex! Call it what you want, Gays or Straights who have sex with children should be given The Death Penalty.

Georgetwin
Jerry Studds had an "affair" with a congressional page. The only reason he was "of age" was it occurred in Washington DC. If he did it back in Massachusetts, he'd have been arrested for rape of a child.

curious reactions to the story
If people are actually curious about this story, one can find more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20070821_About_rights__not_role_models.html.

But in brief. They became a couple in 1985. They took in a niece of one of theirs in 1995 at age 13 and raised her until she turned 18. After she left, they let their lives go to hell, which is how they got into their current predicament.

Two points on the story. One is that Judge Katz, who initially tried to punt on the case, would seem to be a bad candidate for a crusading judge. He did, after all, try to duck making a ruling at all.

The other is that it is hard to see how anyone with the basic humanity can be happy with the idea that this couple of 20 years would be prevented from trying to rebuild their lives after serving their time in jail. What exactly is gained by keeping this couple apart, other than heterosexuals getting to feel superior because their relationships are protected by law? And how pathetic must we heterosexuals be if our sense of family requires keeping this couple apart.

I don't know if this column reflects greater hatred for homosexuals or heterosexuals. While it would directly aim harm to homosexuals, its underpining certainly suggests real contempt for heterosexual institutions.

Leo
Well of course you have to make it a gay issue. Not everything on the planet is about gays. I know you would like it to be but it is not.

Grrr!!!!
This kind of ridiculous perversion of the law is what really gets my hackles up. Why we allow the ACLU to exist is beyond me. To every liberal that thinks this is a great organization think again. When one of these drug addicits kills your children or spouse because they were allowed to co-habitate and start again then get back to me. Not to mention the situation nows sets up a recidivism rate that will cost us all big time in the way of money and pain.

Marriagea is not just
declaring one's self in love with something. It is defined by law. In the US, that is state law.

I don't see that Christianity has anything to do with the article. Marriages exist in Buddhist, Confusian, Taoist, Shintoist, and animist societies without regard to Christianity, and none of them recognize homosexual pairings as marriage.

Judaism and Islam, although "people of the Book," do not observe legalization of homosexual marriages.

None of the ancient cultures like Rome, Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus Valley, or China ever had homosexual marriage.

That two drug dealers can skirt criminal law barring association of felons by claiming conjugal rights is inanity.

Apparently
Moron.Org, Communist UnderGround and Peter Puffington talking points for today are to DEMONIZE Christians and CANONIZE Gays. The Same, Tired, Old, Liberal Nonsense:

WAA! You’re being Judgemental! WAA! Christians are bad!, (Insert Victim of the Moment Here) are good! WAA! Mark Foley! WAA! Catholic Priests! WAA! WAA! WAA!

The difference is Conservatives banish perversion, Liberals embrace it!

Proof!

What happened to Mark Foley?
What happened to Gerry Studds?

Vick
Michael Vick need only claim "intimacy" with his dogs, and once he is on probation he can still keep all the pit bulls around that he wants.
More importantly though is the ongoing hypocrisy of my fellow conservatives and Christians as they pant over gays and marriage all the while sitting in churches where hetero marriages are not only falling apart, but unintentionally being encouraged to collapse and providing support to those who initiate the collapse.
Sad that.
Until the church and social conservatives in general start fixing the family we claim gays could harm, we lack standing folks, and as far as I can tell the ignorance is bliss becuasee it allows my compatriots to keep taking pot shots at easy targets and never looking around the pews at the "single Moms" and single dads.

what's the real issue here
I don't really care if they associate with each other. What bothers me is that their sentences were so light. What kind of deterrent is that to drug dealing?

As a society
We're into uncharted territory here--near the edge of the map. And unlike 1492, this edge ain't round...

Rules and exceptions
The non-association rule is an important tool for rehabilitation; one of the keys to avoiding recidivism is to change the offender's environment and habits. We allow exceptions only in the case where there is an overriding societal value, such as marraige and family, which trumps this rule. We do not want to be in the practice of breaking up marraiges and families.

These two men were not married. Even if they were a heterosexual couple, the condition would have broken them up. Whether they should be allowed to marry, and whether they would have married given the option, is not for the judge to say. Since when do judges get to make rulings based on what they think the law ought to be, or what the facts would be if things were different? That is not jurisprudence, it is fantasy land.

We should not reward people simply because they have a non-married sexual relationship. Such relationships are definitely not in the public interest and should not be encouraged, regardless of orientation.

Put Simply
This is not a test case for abolishing family.

They have no excuse
Punishment by its very nature takes away a convict's rights to one degree or another. It's part of the sacrifice the convict must endure to pay his debt to society.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. They knew that dealing in drugs is illegal; and if they hadn't been, they would not have found themselves in the situation they're in now.

Another thing. Were they allowed to engage in sodomy with each other while in prison? Parole means "trust" and is a privilege. As such, parole is merely a continuation of the prison sentence.

One last thing. These laws were not put in place to harass gays.

Countryman
The point you raised about convicted criminals giving up the right to free association is really what's at issue in this case. The other issue is the nature of the relationship between the plaintiffs. In this case, the absence of a formal or informal agreement between the plaintiffs invalidates any claim they make of a "marriage" type relationship.

Sort of? SORT OF?!?!?!?!
Aurorawatcher writes: "...just because you're gay doesn't mean you're a pedophile, and that is true, sort of."

What the hell do you mean, "sort of"?

"All three of my coworkers "discovered" their homosexuality in the arms of a slightly adult woman while in their teens. The Houston teacher claimed he was "opening their eyes to their true sexuality.""

So, were the teens below the age of consent? If so, you're an accomplice. If not, mind your own business.

Good thing you work in the mental health community. You should be able to get the help you need quickly.

Traditional Family
The phrase Traditional Family is generally used to describe the Nuclear Family that only became *Traditional* in the postwar years. The true *Traditional Family* is the extended family of the 1930s that included three or four generations living in close association if not in the same residence; that has been the *Traditional Family* pretty much since time began.

So a sound argument could be made that any group of people with blood ties who live in close association is in fact a Traditional Family by the standards that were in place from the beginning of time until about 1945.

Unless, of course, the real point of the exercise is to take a lifestyle that represents about 6% of the US population these days and make that the ONLY legitimate definition for Family?

I think there is not enough information
to really make any logical judgement in this case. Just because they were 'living together' does not necessarily mean anything. Many heteros 'live together' and are not granted spousal rights. Had they TRIED to get any kind of civil union??
sometimes it's a case of the length of time: How long were these two together?
The story says they took in the foster child. That is NOT adoption. Did they still have the child? Was the fostering over with and the child gone from the house? (Otherwise there are serious child endangerment issues!)
So many questions, so little time.

Ran
I've read your comments in a few places on TH, and I might give you some advice.

While I may agree with you on some points, your constant ad hominems and straw man arguments do not advance your points. Lighten up a bit, and argue rationally, okay?

Oops
Should read: granted the legal status of a married man and woman

Marriage promotes monogomy
If you don't won't "three drug dealers living together in the same apartment, or even a commune full of 1960s hippies" to be granted the legal status of a man and a woman, then we as a society need a formal mechanism to distinguish committed partners from casual ones. Granting homosexuals the right to marriage also burdens them with the obligation of monogomy. All conservatives, even those who view homosexualily as sinful, should (and will!) embrace the idea of homosexual marriage for exactly this reason.

Twisted decision
While I personally find homosexuality distasteful (I don't fear it), it is not within the Constitutional purview of the Federal Government to define or regulate interpersonal relationships. If two guys want to live together and consider themselves a "couple", it's none of my business, and has no impact on my own relationships.

That said, Judge Katz should have not used a twisted interpretation of the Fifth Amendment to reach his decision. Instead, he should have declared the Standard Condition No. 9 codicil as invalid, and prohibited ALL convicted felon couples of whatever relationship from associating with one another, for reasons of inhibiting criminal conduct.

Couples, married or otherwise, are separated everyday when one goes to jail in the due process of criminal punishment. One gives up certain rights when one commits a crime, and the right to free association is one of them.

HUGE Logical Fallacy!
Now I understand why my traditional family fell apart on January 1st, 2004! My once traditional family is now shattered, and nobody could figure out why, and now I know!

Of course, I'm not stupid enough to actually reubt the arguments presented here, since they've been rebutted so many times in so many other places. Suffice it to say that they're dumb, and the writer knows this and knowingly included them in this piece. But wow...

This is a dumb article for one main reason: its thesis has nothing to do whatsoever with the story. You're saying that Ms. Cheney and Ms. Poe should not be married because of these drug dealers? That since the institution of marriage allows same-sex drug dealers to get married, it must be wrong? News flash, buddy, if one of those drug dealers had been female and they had been married -- which would have been possible -- then existing law would have allowed those drug dealers to associate with each other. However, you're arguing for breaking up their family and others like it. Sure, they're drug dealers, but they do have a daughter, and here you are, saying that because a judge ruled that these guys were essentially married anyway (which they, legally, can't do officially because of idiots like you) their family can stay together, that MY family is somehow threatened. My two heterosexual parents have been married for twenty-five years, and let me tell you, a couple of drug dealers keeping their family after jail won't pry them apart.

Stop using blatant fallacies in your arguments, dude. Seriously. Slippery slope is so outmoded.

Someone will be sure to protest
that just because you're gay doesn't mean you're a pedophile, and that is true, sort of. Enough are that I wonder. My husband roomed with a gay man a few years before we met. He saw a lot during that year, including a lot of teenage boys going into the guy's bedroom. This guy was a teacher in the Houston public schools, btw.

That experience didn't sour BJ on gay people (although he insists he'd never have another gay roommate) and for years we were friendly acquaintances with the rather large gay community at a hotel where BJ was a facilities tech. We watched their sordid sortings and multiple arrangements and shook our heads at the mental illness that seemed so clear in that group.

Now I work with three lesbians in the mental health community. Well, one actually married a man two years ago after she was abandoned by her long-time lesbian partner, so I guess she's not a lesbian anymore. At least, she says she's not and I'll agree with her. One of the other remaining lesbians is a very nice person who seems to understand that heterosexual means I don't swing either way. The other doesn't and she comes on to me regularly. She also believes that it's okay for young adult (20-30 y.o.) homosexuals to "assist" teens in "discovering their sexuality." Oddly enough, when the mating in question is between heterosexuals, she thinks the law ought to put the adult away, but not so when it's a homosexual situation. "That's different," she says. "You don't understand."

I understand, all right. All three of my coworkers "discovered" their homosexuality in the arms of a slightly adult woman while in their teens. The Houston teacher claimed he was "opening their eyes to their true sexuality."

It's a slippery slope we're standing on and the ice is hardening.

Great judge
Maybe this JUDGE will also be the one,,, to change CONSENT both Age and Species,,,, Thus the oppressed MINORITIES PEDO's and BESTIALS will also be recognized for thier RIGHTS...?

What a forward looking Judge this guy is... to notice PROGRESS, where PROGRESS can be made...


My only hope is that he sees PROGRESS for ALL groups that also NEED thier RIGHTS.....

If he can overturn SODOMY, MARRIAGE, and ADOPTION,,,, then why not "go the extra mile" and legalize PEDOPHILIA and BESTIALITY? The CONSENT issue is not as much of a roadblock for these (deserving) minorities as Marriage, Sodomy, and Adoption is for GAYS....

I think we've found our MAN,,,, JUDGE KATZ!

The future's sooo bright,,, gotta wear shades...
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