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Wednesday, July 18, 2007
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
D.C.'s Assault on the Second Amendment
by Terry Jeffrey
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A useful illustration of how American freedom could fade away can be seen in a contrast between the city government of Newton, Mass., in 1775, and the city government of Washington, D.C, in 2007.

On Jan. 2, 1775, as historian David Hackett Fischer recounts in Paul Revere's Ride, the good people of Newton held a town meeting. The issues they discussed were similar in a certain sort of way to the issues that might be discussed today by the D.C. council. They included a proposed gun law and entitlement program.

In Newton, the gun law and entitlement program were one and the same.

The Newtonians thought it so important for every man in town to own a gun that they were ready to give him one if he could not afford it.

"Voted," say the town records, "that the Selectmen use their best discretion in providing fire-arms for the poor of the town who are unable to provide for themselves."

D.C. Mayor Adrian Fenty does not see guns the way our Founders did. In his view, they are not tools for defending individual liberty, they are instruments of criminality.

This week, Fenty announced that the District would appeal to the Supreme Court a March decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia that ruled that a District gun law was unconstitutional. The law in question flatly bans possession of a handgun -- even in one's own home -- unless the gun was registered before 1976. "Wherever I go, the response from the residents is, 'Mayor Fenty, you've got to fight this all the way to the Supreme Court,'" said Fenty.

In fact, however, the D.C. handgun suit pits individual law-abiding D.C. residents against a Constitution-flouting D.C. government. These individuals claim the government is violating their Second Amendment right to "keep and bear arms." The appeals court agreed.

The District argues there is no such thing as an individual right to keep and bear arms, and that the Framers did not intend to protect one. Pointing to the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment ("A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State"), it argued in court that the substantive clause ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed") was not really intended to protect a "right of the people," but a right of state governments to maintain militias.

"The District claims that the Second Amendment 'protects private possession of weapons only in connection with performance of civic duties as part of a well-regulated citizens militia organized for the security of a free state," Judge Laurence Silberman reported in his opinion for the appeals court. Because the District implicitly argued that Founding-era-type militias no longer exist, Silberman said, the unavoidable conclusion, if the District's argument is accepted, is that the Second Amendment is meaningless.

"(I)n fact, at oral argument, appellees' counsel asserted that it would be constitutional for the District to ban all firearms outright," said Silberman. "In short, we take the District's position to be that the Second Amendment is a dead letter."

The generation of Americans who ratified the Second Amendment would see such an outcome as a prelude to the extermination of all the other rights of the "people" recognized in the Constitution.

Gun ownership, in their view, was not merely an individual right, it was a natural right. If individuals had a God-given right to life, liberty and property, it obviously followed that they also had a right to individually posses the means to protect their life, liberty and property. That meant guns.

The 1689 Bill of Rights enacted by England's parliament reflected this view, as did William Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England," one of the most popular books in colonial America. Even Founding era editorial writers understood that gun ownership was a natural individual right.

A 2004 opinion from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Council explaining why the Second Amendment protects an individual right cited an April 13, 1769, editorial from the New York Journal Supplement. "It is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the (English) Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence," said the editorial, "and as Mr. Blackstone observes, it is to be made use of when the sanctions of society and law are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."

Three months after the people of Newton resolved to provide firearms for the poor, English regulars marched on nearby Concord with the aim of disarming the American people.

Hopefully, a majority of the Supreme Court will stand as firmly today in defense of the right to keep and bear arms as Americans once did at Concord Bridge.

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Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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This is actually great news!
The time is right and this is the right case to get a definitive ruling on the 2nd Amendment from SCOTUS. The makeup of the Court is also right.

Fenty's making a huge mistake for his side, and I'm glad he's making it. We could conceivably get a ruling that would invalid a mass of extant gun laws.

That would be great!

I wish I could be as optimistic
As a lawyer, I would guess that only 4 justices can definitely be said to have pro-individual rights views on the 2nd amendment: Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts. You need 5 justices to agree on an issue to carry the day.

You can forget Breyer, Ginsburg, and Souter, as they are all big-government leftwing extremists. Stevens almost always takes a leftwing view as well.

That leaves Kennedy as the swing vote. If my analysis is correct, it would all come down to which side he joined.

On the other hand, there is the possibility that the Supreme Court could refuse to hear the appeal. That would be good news for residents of DC, but would mean we would still lack a definitive high court ruling on the 2nd amendment.

Assault on the 2nd
The "Supreme" Court is a bit of a conceit. Anyone remember Dred Scott? That said, it seems to be a rather necessary sort of conceit: the dialectics of civil society require a forum. 2500 years of western thought and experience indicate that multiple forums are required.
"Natural Rights" seem to be rather few, but quite inescapable. Either every sensible, civil free(d) man has the right and the duty to defend himself, his family and his property, or he does not. The middle is clearly excluded.
The nebbish and the Copperheads. Maybe they should eat each other.



To BrianR
I agree with UGA Lawdog. I would not bet the farm on the current court. I am not sure that I would count on Roberts for this one either. He appears to be one who believes heavily in Stare Decicis, particularly for laws that have been on the books for many years. Although the SC has never really ruled on these types of 2nd Amendment violations, laws like this have been on the books in NYC and Boston for over a hundred years. I think that they may be reluctant to overturn these laws.

Scumbuckets win
People who routinely engage in illegal activities aren't going to be deterred by the illegality of guns--it's just one more law to ignore. A ban on guns would actually be a welcome development for these predators, as it would increase the likelihood that their prey would not be armed.

GUN CONTROL , ah, I mean PEOPLE CONTROL
Fenty is a communist just like Ted Kennedy and the mayor of New Orleans, These people and others like them should be purged. And why not?
Americans are so dumbed down and media brain washed it's pathetic.

DC criminals support the Mayor
I have no doubt that the criminals in Washington, DC support their mayors opinion. I was looking over the crime stats for DC and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of guns. http://mpdc.dc.gov
Unfortunately the guns are all in the wrong hands.
I would not bet the farm on this Supreme Court. In fact the NRA was trying to join this lawsuit in an attempt to scuttle it and keep it away from the Supreme Court (info from non NRA pro gun websites).

This is simple!!!
The rights CLEARLY DEFINED in the BILL OF RIGHTS, are reserved to the people or to the states. Exactly NONE of the rights have ever been deligated to the federal government and in the case of the Second Amendment, has not been deligated to anyone. The rights of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. People means people. It does not mean government or the courts.

Since we the people have never deligated this right to anyone, how can anyone now say they can ban firearms? WHO the hell do they think they are? King George?

The Constitution is CLEAR on what must be done to accomplish banning firearms, and that is for a Constutional Amendment to be passed making null and void the Second Amendment. That stands about as much chance as a snowball in hell, so the liberals are trying an "end run" on the Constitution hoping the courts will give them power the Constitution and the Bill of Rights SPECIFICALLY DENIES them.

Depending on the outcome of this case, we may need to have another revolution and put the government and the courts back in their place like George Washington had to do in 1776.

I'm with the pessimists
The best we can hope for is SCOTUS not to hear this case.

Of course a Donkey Party win in 2008 means "game over." But the three GOP "front-runners" (Giuliani, Romney & McCain) are NOT RKBA supporters either.

It's time to make a stand boys
I believe than a person’s moral compass can be determined by how he references the right of free men to defend their God given gift of life. That there is an argument in America that a free man can defend himself or his family is absolutely preposterous, completely unacceptable, and I will not accept it. That politicians would try to tell me they will dictate where, why, when, or if I can defend myself is ludicrous and I will not accept that.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
Big Brother loves you.

If Americans support politicians who are so debased of values as to support the gutting of the Constution, then they deserve everything they are going to get as a result. I won't be here to see it however because my government is going to kill me in order to take my firearms. They did that at Waco and at Ruby Ridge, so I have no doubt they will do it to me, but they are dam sure going to have to do it because I am not going to give them up without a fight to the death.

Now you boys can do what you want, but here is where I make my last stand. I am going to die anyway, and this is a heck of a better reason to die than old age or cancer. So it does not matter to me what the courts do. I know what I am going to do.

Never ...
since the founding of this country has the possession of guns by the general public been so necessary. We live in an age of virtual anarchy and chaos, with civil order and the rule of law as fragile as a spider's web in a stiffening wind.
The time is nigh, I think, when if we wish to stand as freemen we will have to turn our weapons against the US government.

If it is to come, let it come in my time rather than my children's.

Dave Stone
We’re both patriots on the Right side of this issue. But with all due respect, I must disagree with you. The SC should hear this case now. Yes; it could rule against us. But it’s time for this to finally be decided. If not now, it eventually will be; and likely in an less friendly SC, if a Demorat is elected. So let it be decided now in the hope it goes in our favor. If not, then the time will likely come, and soon, that many of will take the ultimate stand against a UN controlled Communist State, once known as the USA.

To DocNoleCat
McShame is no longer qa top tier candidate. Thompson, who does support ythe 2nd Amendment, has moved up to top tier and McShame is dropping like the RINO scum rock that he is.

I disagree with the pessimists
Kennedy has been coming down on the side of the conservative justices since the Roberts Court has been in existence, and the makeup of SCOTUS isn't going to get any better in the forseeable future.

Further, this is a perfect case for rendering a decisive decision.

Additionally, there's no stare decisis in play, as there's no previous SCOTUS ruling to address, and that's the definition of the term; it doesn't refer to legislation, but previous court rulings.

In his opinion in the Interstate Commerce case a few years ago, Thomas was almost begging for a clear 2nd Amendment case they could rule on. This case is a VERY clear case on the issue.

The column doesn't make clear that Silberman's comments were actually skeptical in nature, as he ruled with the majority to overturn the DC ban.

Lastly, this issue has to be ultimately fought in SCOTUS. We're NEVER going to clear this issue up until it is. You don't win battles by running away.

Now's the time, and this is the case!

BrianR- SFASU7392
You are both on the money! A HUGE MAJORITY of guns used in crimes are stolen, bought on the Black Market or purchased by Mules. Urban Areas are the most violent BECAUSE of the aforementioned facts. Try to explain that to a Liberal! At any rate, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Take it to SCOTUS and get a definitive ruling. A Negative Ruling may be the straw that splits America into Blue America and Red America.

To BrianR
I guess we'll see what we can see. I personally think the most likely thing is that the SC will not hear the case and let the DC court decision stand. That way it will not be binding for the other districts. The SC has had a long history of avoiding 2nd Amendment cases.

George, Vic
George, it well could be exactly that.

Vic, I'm not so sure. As I said, Thomas has been begging for one, and Scalia loves this kind of issue. They could grant cert.

Kelo Decision
That is a perfectly good reason why we need guns.

Who is going to engage in wrongful taking of property if they face the near-certainty of dying?

The remedy is simple...
...if the Supreme Court eviscerates the 2nd. Amendment. Pro 2nd. Amendment citizens must begin the boycott of the civil and military departments of government that depend on the use of arms. That is, we must discourage our sons and daughters from becoming law enforcement, National Guard or regular military. Let those on the left enforce the laws and fight the wars with their good intentions.

If SCOTUS repeals the 2nd. Amendment by fiat, conservatives must leave the mean streets and battlefields for the children of the left to patrol and defend as best they can.

"NO GUNS, NO SONS OR DAUGHTERS!"

What happens if SCOTUS overturns Parker?
I have read comments by lawyers similar to UGA Lawdog and am concerned about it as well. From Fenty's POV, he has little to lose and a bunch to gain. If SCOTUS overturns Parker, then he is back to where he was and the pro-civil rights crowd has taken an enormous hit. If Parker is upheld, then he is no worse off than he is now.

One thing we need to remember. For any law to be effective, there must be compliance by most of the population. In Canada, when told to register their long guns, most gun owners followed the path of Thoreau and refused to comply. Since there wasn't any registry to track most of them, the law became impossible to enforce.

One thing working for the pro-rights side is the upcoming election. If SCOTUS does take the case, all the candidates will have to address the issue. Hopefully thie will smoke out the closet gun-banners.

I saw this on a T-shirt once...

"Liberals are always inflaming the culture war. They forget who has the guns!"

dc
Ah, no wonder they have such a low crime rate in D.C.

Pessimists, even if you're right, who will enforce all these new laws? Do you think house-by-house searches are imminent? Seriously, even if the Feds want to take away guns, they're not efficient enough.

It will come down to personal choices

The problem is that some dumb smuck who thinks that he is "only doing his job" will be the one who comes to your door and attempts to take your property. He or she will be the one that you have to kill. He or she are just COWARDS doing what they are doing saying that they are "providing for their family and just obeying the law."

I say again, there is NO LAW that can affect the private ownership of firearms in the United States AS LONG AS THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS IN THE CONSTITUTION. It is the ONLY thing any lawful citizen needs in order to lawfully have firearms-PERIOD!!!! It is a right of the people that has NOT BEEN DELIGATED to any politician or court. And anybody, law enforcement, political, judicial, or military, that attempts to do ANYTHING to abridge that right is WRONG just as King George III was, and deserves exactly what he got.

The sorry politicians who are behind all of this anti-American business will never place themselves in the position of having to enforce any of it of course. They have the cops and the military to do their dirty work. Wouldn't you just LOVE for Hilary Clinton or Michael Bloomberg or Chucky Schumer or Teddy Kennedy to waltz their big butts up to your front door and demand that you hand over your rifle?

You know boys, all of this gun control business is begining to make me understand how these Muslim fanatics are so willing to kill themselves just to be able to kill Christians or Jews. Few things like being able to register my disapproval with any of the gun control anti-American, anti-Constution, anti-Second Amendment fruit cakes can make me feel that way, but this does.

Unfortunately, one other result is that it has also completely changed my attitude toward government in general, towards the law and the courts. Those instutions have been what have set this nation apart from the rest of the world and now they are going down the same path as all the others.

I am NOT GOING DOWN THAT PATH. They will kill me trying to force me to go, but they are going to be carrying my dead body if I go one dam step! And ANYBODY that takes a step with them is taking a step towards anarchy, dictatorship, and hell itself. It is better to die now a free man with a gun in my hand than to die a slave to the government. Give to Rome that which rightfully belongs to Rome, but this belongs to me and I ain't giving it to them while I am alive. They won't have anything but the body of one skinny white boy if they do kill me and I although I am afraid to die, I ain't THAT dam afraid of it.

"You know boys,...
...all of this gun control business is beginning to make me understand how these Muslim fanatics are so willing to kill themselves just to be able to kill Christians or Jews."

Amen Black Prince!

Black Prince
Let's lock arms, boy! We'll go down together and take a bunch of the s.o.b.'s with us! The totalitarians on the left want to disarm us for one reason only: They want to rule us! My response? Shoot their dadgummed asses!

It ain't just guns
Its the right to "keep and bear arms." Not just guns. Bazookas. Shoulder-fired rockets. Tanks. And yes, even nukes. Its right there in the Constitution--if its an armament, we each have a complete and total right to keep it and to bear it.

And that so-called prefatory clause--"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state"--we don't need to be concerned with that. Strict construction of the Constitution means that we strictly construe the words we like and disregard the ones we don't like.

So, as Mr. Jeffrey suugests, as soon as the DC city council (and presumably every other city council in the country) gets around to approving legislation requiring everyone to have a gun and paying for guns for everone who can't afford one, then we'll all be a lot safer. Just as the founding fathers intended.


Rights v. Powers
The first ten amendments to the Constitution are commonly called The Bill of Rights. Government has NO rights, it has POWERS. Rights are reserved to the PEOPLE. By its very title The Bill of Rights defines PEOPLES rights.

ANTI SECOND AMMENDMENT
SEEMS ALL POLITICIANS CAN ONLY FOCUS ON ON DECREASING CITIZENS RIGHTS, I.E. MORE CONTROL, MORE TAXES, REGULATIONS AND POCKING MONEY FOR THEMSELVES.
READ WHAT HAPPEN IN AUSTRAILA, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT PAID (OUT OF SIGHT DOLLARS SPENT BY GOV'T) TO REMOVE GUNS, AND THE RESULTING GIANT INCREASE OF CRINIMAL ACTIVITY. SHOCKING NUMBERS.
WE HAVE TOO MANY SOCIALIST POLITICANS!

Lie teller
It is usually at this point that some bedwetter brings up the old "nukes in the backyard" bugaboo. Traditionally, "arms" have meant something that can reasonably be carried by one man, like pistols, shotguns, and rifles.

If you want my guns, come and get 'em.

AZPhil
No problem. I meant suitcase nukes.

By the way, if its tradition that should carry the day here, traditionally one reads a whole sentence, not just the part they like, when interpreting the Constitution.

Conservatives Take heart
think about this: No amendment, other than the 18th, has ever been repealed. Assume it happens again with the 2nd. At worst, we're talking open rebellion. At best, wanton disregard for the law (see 18th Amendment).

Now, the logical people enforcing the law would be the police. But at least in small towns, these aren't strangers, but friends with people in the community. Do you think they will vigorously enforce a law they don't believe in by taking away Johnny's hunting rifles?

Now look at bigger towns. Maybe the cops are more willing to alienate the law-abiding sector. This is a giant leap of faith, but let's take it. i wonder how many guns will have been mysteriously "stolen" just prior to the cops arriving at people's houses?

And that's the guns they KNOW about, not the ones people inherited or bought without paperwork.

Finally, this will be the cops' job in addition to their other jobs. Bottom line: the liberal fantasies of a gun-free America just aren't going to happen.

Lie teller
How do you interpret the first half of it?

See my previous post. you can pass all the laws you want. Criminals don't abide by them anyway, and if you want an entire nation of scofflaws like during Prohibition, enact away. No one was more thankful for Prohibition than Joe Kennedy and Al Capone, and with guns, it will be the same situation.

However, I will relinquish my right to carry suitcase nukes if you'll llet me keep my other guns:)

Truth teller
You seem intelligent enough at first glance, so tell me, what part of the right of the people to keep and bear arms is it that you seem not to understand? It doesn't say anything about the rights of the militia. It plainly says people. What part of people don't you understand? What part of "we hold these truths to be self-evident" you don't understand?

We are here for you. We feel your pain. You can't rule us because we have guns and you fear us because of that. Governments and despots ALWAYS fear free men able to protect and defend themselves. Become accustomed to it knucklehead because the only dam way you and the likes of you are ever going to get mine is to come and take them, but I'm going to give you all my bullets first. Run your mouth here but I'm betting that you will be the last one to come to my front door and try to take my firearms and if you are that stupid, it'll be the last dam thing you ever do.

Actually, Truthteller,
"Nukes" are pre-empted by federal law. Since the feds paid for and developed nuclear weapons, they are, in a sense, "collective" and the property of the US Govt. Nice try at a facetious, though meaningless, exaggeration. As for the strict interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, the "Well regulated" prefatory at the beginning is a military, "term of art" that means "well trained and equipped" and is related to the word "regular", as in regular army, regulars, or regular troops, as opposed to volunteers or militia. " A Well regulated militia refers to a degree of training and readiness, not to an invitation for civil authority control of the arms of those who would be the general militia.

Sorry, "TT", even Dershowitz and Tribe admit that the amendment says what it says and not what you lefty's want it to say. Repeal it if you don't like it! But repeal in your own eventual sorrow.

Hope DC loses BIG :)
Brian R, You are right on target! Assuming the USSC will agree to hear the case. If not then the case would appear to end at the court of appeals. I would think anways. Either way it could be a good day for those of us that like our freedoms and a pisspoor day for those that are aginst them.

Black Prince
Exactly right - they can pass all the laws they want. Enforcing them is the trick.

Heres an Idea
Since DC is not much bigger than a city. Everyone that likes their freedoms should move out and abandon the city. and leave those that dont behind.

Bucko
I admit there can be disagreement over what the "preamble" to the 2nd Amendment says, but the last part is pretty clear.

And regarding the "preamble", it says "a free state", no capital letters, and no definite article. Not THE FREE STATE we invented. They were pretty farsighted, and they probably foresaw the day people like Hillary Rodham would decide to play King george III.

If The Best We Can Do Is To
is to hope that government courts will protect individual rights against government, when the laws in question were erected to constrain government, we are lost! We must always lose in any such contest for the deciding jurists are appointed by government.

It is not in government's interests to restrain itself nor constrain it's power or freedom of action nor scope of authority. The documents in question damage government expansion and power and are therefore enemies of government which government will quite naturally wish to be nullified.

This is accomplished by appointing jurists loyal to political persuasion, and not to the founding documents in question or the underlying principles and concepts involved. Under such circumstances black is bound to become white, red will be defined as green and convenience and desire will supplant original principle, intent and oh yes, justice....

Walt's "Rights and Powers".
To coin a phrase; Right on Walt! Sometimes it is the hardest thing to get someone to comprehend this exquisite hierarchy of Natural authority as expressed in the Declaration of Independence. Individuals are born with "Rights" that may only be alienated from an individual, and not all men, by an individuals misbehavior. Governments, on the other hand, are conferred only with "Powers" and never "Rights". Of this fact the Constitution is consistently clear.

In the text of the Constitution, no government entity, not even "States" (sorry my Southern friends) have "Rights", but only "Powers". And these Powers may be changed by the people, but the government has neither right nor power to modify their powers. Only the people do. And the Founding Fathers are consistent in the usage of "Rights and Powers" throughout the Constitution. So much so, that the US Justice Dept. authored a position paper on this very subject, and conceded that "Rights" are the domain of the People, and powers the privilege of government. Would this be taught in in US schools. But, alas, it is not. "Truthteller" is the evidence of such ignorance.

dark prince
There was a time I would have read your posts and considered you a wacko. However, I have done some reading on Revolutionary War times and consider you to be a Patriot.

Keep posting!

oops
Sorry!

Black Prince

Dave Stone
I'm from Ohio originally and my parents still live there. I think it's cool about the conversion of Mike DeBose. unfortunately, we just can't walk up to the other representatives with guns. That would cause more problems than it solves!

Generally, out here, there aren't many gun laws. It's kind of cool. And I don't think Nevada has any gun laws, from what I've seen!

I No Longer Believe In Ignorance
as a cause of current Constitutional contention especially so concerning individual rights.

Ignorance is destroyed by knowledge and truth. These issues keep reappearing with the same arguments as if such knowledge and truth did not exist and had never been provided. That can only mean that there is an intent behind the argument which is not bound by knowledge or truth but by desire to undo what was done.

History shows us the intents of the founders, it is indisputable. Those who contend otherwise, do so in the face of that proof and in spite of it. There is an agenda behind it and is is not simply the destruction of one right within the Bill of Rights but rather more akin to a rewrite of the entire body of documents.

Mac
Interesting. Do you know people know so little about the constitution that they think we have a right to vote enumerated in it? Yet we don't.

And liberals have been trying to rewrite the constitution for some time now. They "found" the right to privacy in roe vs Wade when no one else could, yet they can't "find" the right to bear arms. Hint - look between the first and the third amendments.

A typo I made earlier reminded me of a pun - is "consti-tuition" the money a political science major pays to go to college?

To Bucko
"States Rights" have not been the sole province of the South or of the segregationists. Check out the Hartford Convention and the fight over the federal banking system with Ohio, Maryland, and Pennsylvania (McCollugh v Maryland). Also, the fight over the alien and sedition acts which resulted in the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions (although these could be interpreted as the South they weren't issues that were exclusive to the South).

In any case, as you said, "State Rights" is only a euphemism for limits on Federal power as designated by the Constitution. Something that neither the Supreme Court nor congress currently recognizes.

Bucko and Vic
You're right, and many people including myself miss this - but it is more like "States' Powers" by the 10th Amendment, not "States' Rights". Good point.

STOP wringing your hands
It isn't up to the government to decide this people. Don't stand around and hope for the best or say you'll take the best you can get from the court. THEY will take what we give them; it isn't the other way around.

Now if any of you are so comfortable in your little world that you would let them take your firearms, you don't count for anything any way and you are part of the problem. This is a bed rock issue upon which there can be no compromise without completely destroying this nation. If the Second Amendment goes, all the others will go too because the Second, Fourth, Nineth and Tenth Amendments all reference "rights of the people or states." If the use of the word "people" in the Second Amendment actually means "Mitilia" as some here say, then it must also mean "Mitilia" in the other amendments where that word is also used. If not, we are left with the problem of why the guy who wrote the Bill of Rights used the same word to mean different things in the document. I think George Mason actually knew what the word "people" meant when he wrote that word and he meant exactly what he wrote despite what the liberal historical revisionist say.

And it doesn't matter to me any way because I KNOW what it means and THAT is what I am going to do and as long as I breathe that is the way it will be. We've been heading for this fight for a long time, so let the liberals try to take the Second Amendment. It's about time we decided this once and for all and now is a dam good time to do just that. I hate fighting when it's cold.

Black Prince
Like I said up above, not to worry. They seriously can TRY to take the guns away, but sheer volume of guns, unwilling police officers, flagrant disregard for the new law by gun owners like us, and sheer inefficiency means this isn't happening anytime soon.

rtwgmomma
rtwgmomma writes: Wednesday, July, 18, 2007 4:10 PM
dark prince
There was a time I would have read your posts and considered you a wacko.

I am a whacko. I actually believe in the Constitution and in our nations laws. I believe if the government will do what it supposed to do, and I do what I am supposed to do, we'll all work together as Americans and and be just fine.

So what is the government supposed to do? The power of federal government is limited to the list in Article I section 8. Those powers are:

Borrow money on the credit of the United States;

Regulate commerce with foreign nations, between the states, and with Indian tribes;

Establish uniform rules and law concerning naturalization and bankruptcies;

Coin money and fix the standards for weights and measures;

Provide for the punishment of counterfeiting;

Establish post offices and post roads;

Regulate copy right law;

Constitute courts inferior to the Supreme Court:

Define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas;

Declare war;

Raise and support Armies with funding limited to 2 years;

Provide and maintain a navy;

Make rules that govern the army and navy;

Provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

Provide for the organization, arming, and disciplining of the militia;

Govern the District of Columbia;

Make all laws, which are necessary to execute the forgoing powers.

The people have unlimited rights, as long as they do not infringe on somebody else; and the federal government has limited power to regulate those rights. So once the government does the LIMITED things above, they should go sit in the corner and shut up! We will tell them what to do next, if we tell them anything.

And if the government or the courts do anything we don't agree with, then let them enforce it if they can!!! The Supreme Court ruled Andrew Jackson could not remove the Cherokee indians from lands in Georgia and Jackson said okay, now let them enforce their law. I live on those very Cherokee lands in north Georgia today yet the Supreme Court ruling is still valid saying it could not be done.

Jackson nor I could care less what they said, but I am trying.

To Black Prince
Jackson made his infamous statement and ran the Cherokees through the Trail of Tears but the Indians have gotten back some of their own in more recent times. When they have sued over violated treaties they have been consistently upheld by the courts and awarded compensation.

Also, they can now take revenge for the wrongs done with "firewater" by giving the "white man" organized gambling and cheap high nicotine cigarettes. LOL

AZPhil
The local cops are as dumb as a post. They WILL try to enforce the law if they are instructed to do it. Since 9/11 the cops in this nation have become very militarized and they have been trained to follow orders just like the soldiers that ran the death camps in Germany and Japan. They will use the excuse, I was only following orders. Just look at what the local law enforcement types did after Katrina. They confiscated all firearms. They did it on orders from the police chief. The local sheriff’s departments did the same thing. They had help from federal marshal’s and the military. NONE of that was legal and ALL of that was in violation of the Second Amendment. Do you think any of them cared? Has anyone been prosecuted? Hell, Ray Negan is going to run for governor!!

So don’t even count on support from the law dogs because you are not going to get it. If those guys had any brains to think for themselves, they wouldn’t be common law dogs in the first place, they’d be FBI so they could go around assonating innocent citizens with sniper rifles like they did Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge or making crispy critters out of innocent women and children at Waco. Now that is where the real fun comes from being a law dog. Man those guys get all the fancy toys to play with like military tanks and military advisors and support and stuff in CLEAR violation of the Posse comitatus law!!

I say that from being a special deputy sheriff for four years and having been a military cop for six years. It absolutely frightened me to know those I served with and what they believed. They will kill you. Period! Warrant or no warrant, they will kill you and you had better believe this before you become another statistic. They consider everyone not a cop to be a suspect and the enemy about to commit a crime. The cops in Atlanta busted down the door of an 82 year old grand mother and shot her to death last year. She had been charged with no crime. There were no warrants for her arrest. She wasn’t even a person of interest in any case. But she had a gun! She thought they were robbers breaking in her house. Now she is dead. The cops did it. They will do it to you and your family in a heart beat.

Black Prince
What about in rural America, where the cops are on a first-name basis with half the town?

The cops in New orlenas were corrupt before the hurricane, and after it.

Keep in mind, they still have to FIND the guns, even assuming everything you said is 100% accurate. Yeah, maybe the one I got at the local gun shop is registered, but what about the one I got from Uncle Joe (hypothetically speaking, of course). I think a lot of mine will get "stolen" before the cops show up.

As far as being as dumb as posts, isn't that in our favor? All other issues aside, I simply don't think you could generate the manpower, WHILE FIGHTNIG OTHER CRIME, to do this, not in any fiscally sound way.

AZPhil, I have to say
Draconian confiscatory efforts, such as we saw in New Orleans after Katrina, are going to lead to HUGELY increased sales in PVC piping and GPS locators.


BTW, Black Prince, sorry
I'm not buying your apocalyptic vision of local cops turning into Storm Troopers with Darth Vader Barney Fife leading the way.

I live in Santa Clarita, a burb of LA, with a bunch of cops from various departments as neighbors, and no way are they all of a sudden going to be storming my door trying to take away my guns. Ain't gonna hachi, GI. And they sure as hell know I have them, as we've had lots of conversations on the topic, and admired each others collections.


The LA Riot experience
Better known as "Rodney King".

The riots reached as far as the internal fringes of Beverly Hills. Tons of BevHills libs lined up at gun stores trying to buy, and screaming holy hell that there's a waiting period out here in Leftifornia.

In downtown LA, the Koreans who guarded their shops with loaded scatterguns still had shops after the riots. Everyone else was screwed.

The cops wouldn't even go into those areas; they set up a perimeter.

I was driving all over town on my appointments, in my coat and tie, with a cocked and locked 1911 .45ACP in my briefcase. No fear of being stopped.


Here's a link
"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

Can you read this to infer that people cannot possess books in the absence of schools?

Check out this analyis of the language of the 2nd Ammendment by a language expert.

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Come on guys!!!
Look fellows, owning a firearm and having to hide it is not having it anyway. What the government will do is to pay a bounty to anyone turning in a gun owner. Hello!! And if you think some of your friends, neighbors, ALL your enemies, or most of your relatives won't turn you in for a couple of thousand bucks reward, hide and watch.

America isn't about hiding firearms,and once you start doing that, what next will you have to hide? Maybe the fact that you are Christian or that you are straight and hetrosexual? So we'll keep our firearms right out in the open and if anyone wants to try to take them, we'll fight about that--AGAIN!!


BrianR
Oh! That's right Brian. You are the left coast resident expert in everything because YOU have had experience with some cop buddies.

I was one of them Brian and we ALWAYS knew the people who had hot rods, those who liked drugs, those who sold drugs, those who liked women, who and where the women were, how much they cost, who their pimps were and where they lived, what kind of car they drove, those who liked men, and those who had and liked guns. We wanted to know who in the neighborhood had them and we did know Brian. And they know about you Brian. And they will take you down before you know what happened the instant they get the order to take the guns Brian. They will really hate doing it, but it's their JOB Brian. They have to provide for their family you know? And you know they just want to get their time in and then retire and if it means busting your little butt when ordered to, guess whose little butt is going to get busted by your cop buddies Brian? It's dangerous to get between a cop and his retirement Brian. I know people who've been killed for that.

But of course, you don't, so that means it could never happen. Ain't you gonna be surprised! Count me on the side of knowing what the cops are going to do. They will do what they are trained to do and that is to follow orders and that includes busting your butt Brian. Dam. How do you people get so dumb?

Uhhhh, that's right. You are in Kalifornia. Must be something in the water out there.

You Read My Mind - Black Prince
Black Prince,

I share your distrust of the militarization of law enforcement. I believe that it's an end run around Posse Comitatus restrictions. The black suits and balaclavas worry me also. You probably visit Radley Balko's site too. Most of the sheep in the electorate have a police fetish and see no problem with their evolution into a para-military force.

It's best to seek out like-minded folks, if you have to make a stand. You do need to sleep occasionally and that's when they usually "knock" on your door. I have very small tots at home and can't risk a confrontation. I have no choice but to cache and evade until my young'uns are old enough to learn fieldcraft.

It's an old idea
Throughout history, the right to pursue one's goals in a peaceable, voluntary manner, without direction, control and coercion, has won a hostile reception. There are few things older in history than the idea that some should give orders and others obey.

I jiss ain't wired rite boys. I jiss can't seem to get it through my thick haid that my masters orders MUST be obeyed. Teddy Kennedy can kiss my dam grits. I ain't gonna obey any orders to turn in my rifalguns and thass a fact!

I doan trust no cops. I doan trust no FB & I. I doan trust no Federal Marshal's no. They ain't on my side and they work for the Imperial Federal Government. Guess where their loyalty lies? Who signs their pay check? Duh!

Move to Iraq for Freedom
Black Prince,

From the sad but true department, the residents of Iraq are allowed to keep one AK-47 per household for self defense. Residents of the D. of C. must defend their homes with kitchen utensils or sports equipment. Even under Saddam's rule, 75 percent of Iraqi households had firearms.

Truthteller,
If our founding fathers did not mean for the citizenry to own guns, why oh why have the citizenry possessed them since this country's inception? Have we been doing it all wrong for the past 200+ years? The same argument can be made for religion & politics. Been doing it for hundreds of years until fairly recently, when liberals began to try to use their (lack of) reading and cognitive skills to reinterpret the Constitution. This explains the rampant confusion and stupidity over issues a child can understand.

Don't waste keystrokes on TruthBender
CT,

TT will parse the wording of rights to suit his agenda. He is a statist. Like all statists, TruthTeller fears his neighbors more than the unlimited power that he would willingly cede to a totalitarian government.

Rights! TT can't handle the rights. He probably can't handle a firearm either, so don't sweat it. Our man, the Black Prince (of the cool handle) is ready to deal with leftist, liberty thieves tomorrow, if not sooner.

Black Prince,
You're a nut job, bud.

BTW, BP
Just to get you straight, I'm a former Intel Agent, current PI, I've been at the receiving end of AKs and SKSs, so I'm very underwhelmed by your "Special Assistant Deputy Sheriff Barney Fifedom" or whatever you earlier claimed your experience was.

Your bluster and bragging may impress some, but no sale here, Mr. Legend In Your Own Mind.

I think he already knows that
BrianR,

Do you remember the scene in Braveheart when the slightly loony Irish guy says "if I risk my neck for you, do I get to kill Englishmen?" Maybe we should put the Black Prince in the same category as that fellow and not upset him. His character was useful to the cause of William Wallace after all.

LOL, alopekos
Wallace had a higher tolerance for fools, I guess.


Trust in the Police
BrianR,
I do not understand your antipathy for Black Prince.
I live in a small rural village in upstate NY. During my fifty years I have watched The police force and the sheriff's department grow while the population of this village and the rest of the county (not to mention almoxt the entire region) has decreased. Violent crime is almost nonexistant.
Most all of these new armed officers are strangers from outside of our community. They are carear law enforcement working here mainly waiting for a better position to open elswhere or they are unable to hold a job in a larger city force.
These people scare me and my family. They couldn't care less about the people they arew supposed to serve and protect. Their only concern is the letter of the law and the advancement of their carears.
Several people in this area have been killed after commiting petty crimes simply because they cops knew that they have a gun in their possession. One that I know of personally was killed after he slashed the tires on his own car because his wife was using it to be withe anouther man. The cops found him, followed him to a local quarry, ganged up on him and ordered him out of his truck. He did have a shotgun on a gun rack. When he got out of his truck he was shot six times.
The cops say he had his shotgun and shot in the direction of the officers before they opened fire. But, residents in the area say they heard multiple gunshot then several minutes later they heard a shotgun fired.
I could relate many more stories like this but I'm not writing this to tell stories. I wrote the above as an example. It is only one of the reasons that I do not trust cops. I also have had more than several personal encounters with them after calling 911 for asstance and finding myself treated like I was in the wrong.
I do not trust today's police. They act like storm troupers umless they know they are are on video. Sometimes they act like that even on video ala Cops.
They will take our guns if ordered to and if they meet even the slightest resistance they will kill amd destroy.
It makes me very sad but this is what I see.
I pray to God that it never comes to pass.

KCDillon

Typos
I should have proof read my last post.
Sorry about the mistakes. I'm typing in the dark.

2nd Amendment
I've read the posts and all I can say is...HUH? Are there some MEN here? Owning a weapon under the 2nd Amendment is about protecting and providing for your family. The "my gun is bigger than yours" has taken over this thread. Many here who crow about their experience do so based on the government granting them the right to their gun (or their right to carry said gun).

My daddy taught me and I taught mine...Be a responsible gun owner, know what that means and never, never forget that there are people who have the "my gun is bigger than yours" mentality! Government especially!!

Respect and appreciate your right and responsibility as a gun owner. Keep your gun clean and ready. Know that owning a gun doesn't make you right, no matter how big you or your gun is. Those who spout their "experience" miss the point. The 2nd amendment gives one the right to provide and protect. Those who believe that their gun is bigger, therefore they're right, may as well join the Anti-gunners!

Gun control
It looks like most of you just don't get it. This not about GUN CONTROL! It is all about CONTROL! If the Second Amendment goes, the whole U. S. Constitution is gone. If they succeed in disarming the citizens of the U. S., we will be living in a police state under control of the U.N. I really do not believe that AMERICANS are going to buy that. I know I will not, in this life or the next three.

Kastle
Brian will buy it. He trusts the cops and the government.

Everywhere across this nation the cops and sheriff departments are getting large infusions of FEDERAL money, equipment, and FEDERAL training. New legislation gives the president power to bring all military and police under his comand and suthority. If you pay attention, everywhere across this country there are increasing numbers of "incidents" involving ordinary citizens who are beaten or killed by the cops, many of which have been captured on film.

Things are being put in place for the COMPLETE CONTROL and DOMINATION of all citizens and it is well underway having been in operation for the last five years. Brian of course, is former intell, so he is VERY observant and he KNOWS some local cops who are his buddies and they would NEVER do that.

And the Tooth Fairy is real.

Wake Up America, the clock is ticking!
"The Newtonians thought it so important for every man in town to own a gun that they were ready to give him one if he could not afford it."

If this were only true today. Instead we have political tyrants, with the help of communist traitors, trying to disarm everyone. Today we have a majority of the press that no longer print facts but pushes a leftist agenda. Too many people have become complacent, feeding at the government trough. Many have come to neglect their responsibilities and duties as free citizens, the ultimate authority of our country. This is not just about "D.C.'s Assault on the 2nd amendment", this is about an all out assault on our freedoms, our way of life. For far too long we have allowed our elected servants to dictate to us what they deem as good for us, as if we don’t have enough intelligence to know what is best for us. We have watched, as they have assaulted the entire Bill Of Rights, bastardized the Constitution and shown a total disregard for individual liberty. We know their intentions, destruction of the Country we love, and yet we just sit and watch as they continue to pervert everything our Founders fought for. Now we have come to a point where we are supposed to trust Nine Black Robes, appointed by the same government that wishes to disarm us, to rule in favor of the Constitution. Does anyone really have that much trust left in them? Do you have that much faith in SCOTUS that you would place your life in their hands, because what it comes down to is our very existence as a free people. We sit and we watch, while all around us our freedoms are being taken from us, little by little, till one day we will have no freedoms left and no way to take them back. Wake up America, the clock is ticking, and the alarm is ringing loudly in your ears.

Molon Labe!!

To answer your question, Kastle
BP's response to anyone who disagrees with him is to launch into hyperbolic ad hominem attacks, rather than address the issue raised.

I'm perfectly willing to respond in kind.

BP makes the vapid and arrogant assumption that he knows me, and what motivates and informs me, and so attacks what he thinks is my lack of real world experience. He has now been corrected.

I'll put my real world experience as a former Intel SA up against his Barney Fife background any day.


Are you saying?
Brian

Are you denying that the federal government has poured mega bucks into beefing up law enforcement since 9/11? Chertoff must be lying about that then because he says he has poured multi-millions into it. Are you saying that you have not noticed all the black military uniforms and "special entry teams" that police departments have now? Have you not noticed all the military type of equipment they have from automatic rifles and sub-machine guns to armoured vehicles? Are you saying that you have not noticed the aggressive way the cops now treat everyone? Have you not seen the video of the little old lady in New Orleans that was tackled ON CAMERA by a 250 pound cop in a black uniform? Are you saying that you don't believe all the reports of gun confication after Katrina? Are you saying that nothing has changed since 9/11 and you haven't noticed any of that? Did you not see the case just yesterday or the day before where the police sniper whacked his wife with the police issued rifle as she was singing on a band stand?

As I type this, I know people DIRECTLY involved on a daily basis training a lot of these new cops Brian and they tell me it scares them to death that some of those trainees are actually going to be turned loose on the American public. They say these new recruits do not know any history or anything about the Constitution and they are constantly having to tell them just because they have a badge does not mean they can do many of the things they believe they can do.
The guys doing this came from the military straight into federal service and have been in it all their lives. They have seen it ebb and flow and they say right now they would not serve with most of the new cops in various departments and branches becaue they are much to gung ho and aggressive. I can give you names and phone numbers or e-mail addresses if you want them Brian so you can check this out for yourself. Even though you are an ackjass, maybe if you know some of this stuff, you will have the opportunity to see what is happening and change that dangerous attitude that you now have about cops before it gets you killed. Even a Kalifornia ackjass deserve better than that.

Besides that, you may turn out to be okay, even if uninformed.


Truthteller
You know, the funny thing is, you're actually right when you suggest that proponents of the second amendment are suggesting that the founding fathers were guaranteeing citizens the right to own anything in the military arsenal. You say that the founding fathers couldn't have meant that, but they did.

It is obvious that the founding fathers wanted citizens to be armed to protect against foriegn invaders, and lord forbid those scoundrels in washington that would endeaver to remove our freedoms. It's called tyranny, and for the common defense. That means against thugs

The founding fathers wanted the citizenry to be armed as well as the military.

But, it is not practical for citizens to possess heavy armament. Everyday citizens are a back up plan when the chips are down.

Besides the state has the right to regulate and they are already doing a pretty good job of stripping our gun rights.

You can bit that the founding fathers wanted its citizens to be armed and armed well, how else can you put down tyranny.

But, you gun grabbers don't have to worry, citizens wouldn't stand a chance protecting itself against tyranny unless the military refused to follow orders.

What we have to settle for now is hoping that we can get to our handgun or hunting rifle when some thug breaks the door down.

Guns are not the issue

It's not the guns they will come after, it's the AMMO. Remember that next time you have a few bucks burning a hole in your pocket and you don't know what to buy.
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