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Wednesday, October 18, 2006
Terry Jeffrey :: Townhall.com Columnist
Population growth is good
by Terry Jeffrey
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As I drove to work Tuesday morning, WTOP Radio in Washington, D.C., broadcast a report on the Census Bureau's population clock, which at 7:46 a.m. estimated that the number of people in the United States had reached 300 million.

Based on birth, death and immigration rates, the clock assumes the U.S. gains one net person every 11 seconds. By the time I started drafting this column later in the morning, the clock had already passed 300,001,095.

The trend has some people spitting mad. They don't want more people in the United States. They don't want more people, period. Increasing the number of people, they believe, is bad.

After its report, WTOP played a montage of anonymous comments recorded on its "Talk Back Line," reflecting the anti-people point of view. Jim Farley, the station's vice president of news and programming, was kind enough to replay the segment for me over the phone so I could quote from it verbatim.

One caller spoke derisively of people "rushing out of their McMansions to jump into their giant SUVs to race to the hospital to have their fifth or sixth child."

The negative comments were followed by comments from listeners expressing a more optimistic view of population growth. Count me among the optimists.

Leaving aside the deadly sin of envy, what rationale could lead someone to feel threatened by someone else's comfortable home, large car or sixth child?

It is a rationale tempted to see man as a mere animal -- or worse.

Richard Haas, emeritus professor of biology at California State University at Fresno, used the occasion of the U.S. population surging past 300 million (and the global population past 6 billion) to argue in the Fresno Bee that the human race is like a malignancy.

"Growth for growth's sake is the philosophy of the cancer cell, with predictable consequences," wrote Haas. "Is the analogy too farfetched? Can reasonable people believe that humans can grow exponentially forever? Three hundred million Americans and 6.5 billion people is not a fact we should celebrate. The planet is finite. Human capacity for self-deception appears infinite."

It is worth reducing this argument to its absurd conclusion: A cancer cell is inherently bad. Even one is too many to have in your body. The earlier a doctor finds a cancer -- and kills it -- the better.

If humans are a cancer, why should even one be allowed to disfigure the Earth? Why not turn back the population clock to zero?

Obviously, even the bitterest anti-people pessimists don't take the anti-people logic this far. The very fact they persist in living -- and complaining about other people being alive -- proves they think some people ought to live. That is, they believe their kind of people ought to live.

To this mind-frame it is always another kind of person who ought not to live.

For the voice on WTOP's "Talk Back Line," that someone else was the "fifth or sixth child" -- whose parents presumably will strap him or her in a safety seat in their "giant SUV" as they return from the hospital to their "McMansion."

The thought I had on hearing this comment was that a "fifth child" might be born who grows up to cure the disease that otherwise would have cut short the life of the anonymous caller himself.

A "sixth child" might be born who builds the business that gives the caller's child the opportunity to work, prosper, buy his own SUV and fill it with up with joyful grandkids.

Who knows? A "seventh child" might become the quarterback who brings joy to millions in the Washington area by finally leading the Redskins to another Super Bowl.

You don't need to be an economist to see it is a myth that man is a net consumer of material wealth. History proves the opposite. The world is brimming with physical and intellectual improvements made by successive generations of human inhabitants. Its so-called carrying capacity has been determined not by the width of its continents, but by the wit of man.

The Bible tells us God made man in his own image and likeness, gave us dominion over the Earth, and told us to be fruitful and multiple. It ought to be self-evident that if the future of the human race is ever endangered, it won't be from following this pro-life command, but from denying it.

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About The Author

Terence P. Jeffrey is the editor-in-chief of CNSNews

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©Creators Syndicate
A different analogy
OK, maybe the cancer cell analogy wasn't so great. Let's consider normal body cells. When we're growing, of course we add more, and each one makes us just a little better. But, when we grow up, that population growth stops and we enter more or less a steady state, making only enough cells to replace the ones we lose. In fact, people that grow too big have all kinds of health problems. God made us that way.

Isn't it reasonable to think that the Earth was made the same way, with a certain optimal number of humans? A number which, judging from most of the evidence, we've already exceeded.

China's policy
It wasn't always a one-child policy. It used to be a five-child policy. Mao's logic was that every person has two hands, but only one mouth, therefore each new one would produce twice as many resources as he or she consumed. Just the sort of economic logic you'd expect from a communist. Apparently, no one explained the law of diminishing returns to him. The policy was changed to "one-child" in 1979, partly as a result of overpopulation being blamed for the failure of the Great Leap Forward.

No, I'm not advocating the one-child policy, although I'm sure some contributors will accuse me of that. And, yes, what's true of China isn't neccessarily true of the U.S. And, I agree, they are a bunch of godless Communists with little to no respect for human rights. But consider this for a moment. The Chinese, as a people, tend to be plenty smart and plenty conservative, not the sort of people to take drastic action to follow some scientific fad. Yet, they thought the problem was bad enough to take drastic action. Just something to consider.

Self-delusion
Look, no offense to this guy, but his head is completely up where the sun ain't shining. It isn't just the wit of man that has allowed the population to increase so much. It is our massive drawdown of fossil fuel energy. Think about it. Everything you can think of that results in modern life comes from an increased use of energy, specifically the fossil kind. We would not otherwise have the petrochemical-based medicine, fertilizers, etc., that we have. We would not have the same quantity of light, heat, power, etc., if we were using wood or whale oil. We would have to feed draft animals rather than rely on oil-powered tractors. The list goes on and on.

People like Terence Jeffrey and, sad to say, probably most Republicans, believe so much in "the market" that they think we'll just be able to grow and grow and grow with no limit. Pure mathematics tells you that is false. The market can't just produce energy. Laws of thermodynamics, you see. Let's see how easy it is to continue to feed, clothe, and house 300 million people when oil is $100, $200, or $500 per bbl. All it would take is a mideast war or a Saudi revolution.

But hey, let our children worry, right?

Resources
People that share Terence Jeffrey's views often point out that certain predictions of resource loss (of food, minerals, etc.) have not come to pass because technology and techniques are always improving. We learn how to use fertilizers to grow more food per acre, or use new methods to access previously unknown sources of oil.

True enough, but that doesn't change the fact that our resources are ultimately limited. We can't create new land for living space, not without sacrificing something else (and ultimately that land will be filled up, too). We can't just say "Abracadabra" and make our trash and wastes disappear. And no amount of fertilizer is going to turn the Rocky Mountains into the Kansas corn fields.

Perspective
It has been shown more than once that the entire population of the current Earth could be sited in Australia and the population density would not be worse than that currently experienced in Japan.

My experience is that most of the people squalling about population explosions are also intent upon cramming the proles into high-rises in very dense neighbourhoods, while they personally live in McMansions with acres of 'green space' ... that they campaign to have other peoples' jobs eliminated and to prevent them from having nice places to live or transportation or holidays save in overcrowded 'public transit' and nearby unimproved public parks...while they personally take their private jets to vacation in exotic places.

When I see the Hollyweirds and the Kennedys moving into densely sited high rises and walking to work, I'll believe we have a problem with overcrowding. Til then, why don't y'all just hush up and go away?

Facts
1) Jeffery writes: “Why not turn back the population clock to zero? Obviously, even the bitterest anti-people pessimists don't take the anti-people logic this far.” Not so: the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement is quite serious. I am not making this up: Google them, or see their website at http://www.vhemt.org.
2) In 1967, the doubling time for world population was 33 years; now it is 61 years. Even at this slower growth rate, in less than 900 years there will be one person for every square meter of land on Earth – in other words, standing room only. The ultimate reductio ad absurdum is to ask how long it will take, at the current growth rate, before the mass of human bodies exceeds the mass of all the matter in the observable universe, including all the stars in all the galaxies. The astonishing answer is only 10,000 years. Fortunately, most demographic studies suggest that the human population will peak at about 9 billion around 2050, and then hold steady or decline.
3) Monty is quite wrong in claiming that energy resources pose a fundamental limit to what we can achieve. Since 1970, the US GDP per capita has doubled, while the energy use per capita has increased by only 3%. This is an amazing achievement. Moreover, there is no shortage of energy: (a) Compared to current Light Water Reactors, Fast Neutron Reactors can increase the energy derived from a kilogram of uranium by a factor of 100, reduce the amount of radioactive waste by the same factor, and reduce the waste storage requirement from 10,000 years to just 400 years. With this technology, terrestrial uranium resources could supply the current total world consumption of energy for at least 1000 years – and we will have licked fusion technology by then. (b) The USGS estimates that methane hydrates under the arctic permafrost and on continental shelves may represent enough energy to meet all world needs for 100,000 years. (c) Solar Power Satellites can provide all the energy we need until the sun dies, a few billion years from now.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
America is not taking care of the citizens it already has now, and beautiful parks and woodlands are disappearing faster than the Kennedy's did in the 60's. The resurgence of diseases that were under control for the past 50 years are again popping up as a result of illegal aliens that are entering this country without having had the most basis of health care screening. This country has an abundant of natural resources and a tax base that could provide a comfortable life for everyone of it's legal citizens, but the burden of taking care of the free loading illegal aliens that continue to flow into this country as a result of the open border policy is quickly drying up these resources and contributing to the spread of disease.

Visit http://www.headsneedtoroll.org and post your views, thoughts and opinions.
Heads Need To Roll

Capability vs. Desireability
Tanabear I love your version of Goldwater, "Population Growth for the Sake of Population Growth is no virtue". Here's mine, Extremism in the defense of an invasion is no vice, moderation in the defense of cultural annihilation is no virtue." God, for another politician like Goldwater...

My car has the capability to drive well in excess of 100 miles per hour each and every time I take it for a ride. I have the capability to sit down at a pizza buffet and shove a couple of large pizzas down my throat. I have the ability to withdraw all of my life savings and fly to Vegas to put it all on the roulette wheel. Because things are capable does that make them desireable and responsible? Is running machines and systems at maximum capacity on a continuous basis generally a good idea for a safe, cost effective, and durable operation? The United States has the capability of sustaining well in excess of 1 billion permanent residents, but is that desireable? Do we look to the 3rd world for our guidance in growing our population? Is more always better?

Just because chicken little libs throughout history have proffered ridiculous ideas about sustainability and resource depletion and eventually been proven completely wrong, does not mean that unbridled growth and consumption are always desireable.

IMHO a stable to ever so slightly increasing population is the most desireable track for our country -- a course we would be charting right now if it weren't for our out of control immigration (legal and illegal). We simply have to get past the romantic notion that every desperate soul roaming the face of the earth harboring the American dream can somehow have his dream attained. Immigration should be about what is in the best interests of our country and not what is in the best interests of the world's poor. I find it amazing that Mr. Jeffrey spends an entire article talking about population growth in this country and doesn't even mention the main propellant for our 3rd worldish rate of growth - immigration. I suppose he was seeking moderation in his presentation of U.S. population growth -- which Mr. Goldwater would of course tell us is certainly no virtue.

Correction
Sorry raidencraig, I mistakenly attributed the quote to tanabear when this was actually yours.

Born Into H*ll
It might be said and true, an infant just may be born into H*ll.

This story missed
The point all together.
Here is the break down
"One birth every........... 7 seconds
One death every............. 13 seconds
One migrant (net) every........ 31 seconds
Net gain of one person every..................... 11 seconds"

The problem is obvious,one international migrant every 31 secs. and they do not die at the rate that a new born does
And they have more babies than native citizens do.

Now do the math,I won't because Im already mad enough about the borders.

buying into the big lie
For the past 30 years or so children (many of whom are now adults) have been taught to hate themselves - to see people as the enemy of the earth. The earth and the non-human creatures on it have been somehow raised to near god-like status. Preservation of every kind of non-human creature has been made a top priority. At the same time we have seen an unprecidented lack of respect for human life. Man has been billed as the enemy in this very bad scenario. As with all enemies, man should be eradicated or at least severely controlled.

For hundreds of years we have been subjected to someone's take on how we are going to run out of resources and overpopulate the earth. It hasn't happened, it hasn't even come close to happening, and it won't happen. Stop believing Al Gore and others of his ilk and start concentrating on what's really important. Leave the doom and gloom to the pessimists.

Oversimplified as usual
Sure, let's all run out and have 8 kids. That way in about 50 years the US population can be 1.2 billion instead of 350 million.

The problem with his simplistic argument is that it ignores the consumption that Americans require. Just for fun, go to http://www.ecofoot.org and do the quiz. I won't claim their numbers are accurate (too simplistic again), but it gives a good idea of where you stand. Just for comparison, I thought I lived pretty simply and I still rated a 6.3.

We're losing biodiversity all over the world, animals are endangered (fish, amphibians, who knows what else), the oceans are overfished. We're fouling our nest.

There are too many people and nature will eventually balance the books. We've had a few close calls that were recognized in time (Plague, AIDS, Ebola, Marburg, 1917 and 1968 flus) and in most cases are so virulent that they can't travel far before the carrier dies. We can't rely on continuing to be so lucky.

I won't say there are so many people we can't feed them all (transport is the biggest problem). The problem is that the rest of the natural world is paying a heavy price for their being so many of us.

I'm not a Cassandra by any means, but we do have a problem on our hands.

Who says big families must consume more?
Some of the most wasteful families I've ever seen are small ones. Large families usually conserve simply because they have less cash/child to spend. Growing up in a family of 7 I learned how to use hand-me-downs. I learned to like quaker oats, and eat everything on my plate. I learned how to carpool to save gas. I learned how to shrink-wrap the windows in the winter, and cool off the house at night in the summer.

And I teach it to my 4 kids.

Conversely, my meighbors with 2 kids drive a lincoln navigator everywhere they go - with or without the kids. They eat out most of the time, and usually have more trash sitting out front on trash pick-up day.

And they teach that to their kids.

Frankly I was surprised to learn the net increase is only 1 per 11 seconds. That's an annual increase of LESS than 1% per year. And if that 1% is going to people who are having kids for the joy of families then that's wonderful. What more enriching environment can anyone hope for? If children are the future then let's put that future in the hands of an extra 1% that are wanted and taught to conserve.

Like I was.

Population Growth Myth
Check out Julian Simon for some really great ideas on population growth and resources. More people = more resources. Its challenging material and definitely worth reading.

Gina
Spot on post. You get my vote.

Resources
To those of you who claim that more people = more resources, or some such nonsense like that: Do me a favor, go get a dictionary, and look up the word "entropy". O.K? Because it's clear that some of you lack a basic understanding of why resources do not just magically appear because people want them to appear. Steel that has been made into a car and that has now rusted and worn away does not just magically become ore again.

As for the "Factualist", um, yes, energy resources DO pose a fundamental limit to what we can achieve. That's not to say that more efficiecies cannot be squeezed out of current energy resources, but it doesn't alter the laws of physics. Further, the "sources" of energy that you describe are all troublesome and mostly hypotehtical. E.g., methane hydrates, which are very dispersed and which may never be amenable to commercial exploitation. Not to mention that methane is a very strong greenhouse gas.

This is what happens when a nation puts its faith in the rapture instead of the science that gave it the free time to obsess about the rapture in the first place.

antipopulation advocates
Interesting.

I had hoped here on Townhall to find a diversity of opinions, and I have not been disappointed. What has dismayed me is the extent to which most folks here have bought into the anti-population folks on the left.

Look at Malthus for example. Malthus stated that the only permissible way to slow population growth was to marry later. He did not advocate the extensive array of contraceptive devices that we now possess to regulate fertility to only those times when we want children.

I have to think that even though Malthus believed population was bad, that he would be appalled to see the conditions today by which people are killing off their children in order for a better life today.

As for the anti-immigration folks, in 50 years there will be no immigrants. World population as a whole will start to decline. I say we should take in as many folks as possible now while they are still wanting to come to the US. When each of us retire, if we do not have children ourselves, we will be thankful for the large families since without them we would not be able to afford large benefits such as pensions for everyone.

It is interesting to note
Ironically, the individuals I know that are most concerned about population growth are the same folks that aren't too concerned about open boarders (they need cheap nannies and gardeners) but are hard-core activist for "open-spaces," and the preservation of nation's natural habitat.

One good question--seeing as in the mid-1970's the federal government declared itself the owner of more than half of all land west of the Mississippi--to be "perserved" from any "new development or further human encroachment upon nature"--where are we planning to put these, our newest arrivals?

too many
I nominate and appoint all those who whine about over population to do the right thing and be the first to go.

The problem is not just people...
but what these people feel 'entitled' to. These millions of third world invaders are not just taking up space, but taking social services from hard-working taxpayers. This socialist system wasn't around years ago. You came here and made it of your OWN accord. Raidencraig's got it right.
There are ghost towns in Mexico because they're all up here eating up our jobs and benefits while sending 80 BILLION every year of OUR money back to Mexico. The 'reconquistas' don't want our 'land'...the dirt; they want to steal what we've worked so hard to create and what the elites, Bush at the top, want to give away.
It's never about warm bodies...but behavior.

oceans overfished?
Lets see, the oceans cover about 2/3 of the planet, how can they be over fished? Perhaps in certain locales where the fishing is mostly done, but come on. And extiction of animals. Do we actually miss and mourn the Dodo, the passenger pigeon, dinosaurs? I suppose today's world would have tried to save the dinosaurs. Would the earth brak down and fall apart if some field mouse (one of many, many rodents) were to go tango uniform tomorrow and become extinct?

Population growth
Generally, Julian Simon was correct about population growth. However there are caveots that go with it. Intelligent, educated human beings are indeed a resource. There are limits to the availability of natural resources, but they are alot further out than Paul Erlich and others assumed in the 1960's.

However, the issue is not resource limitations, but the availability of cheap land, open spaces, and quality of life. These are much more limited than the resource limitations that Paul Erlich ranted and raved about. We're at 300 million. Assuming a population growth rate of a little over 1%, we get 430 million by 2050 and 810 million at 2100. Do we really want this many people in the U.S.?

How expensive do you think it will be to go skiing in the Rockies or to go on beach holiday in the Carribean or Hawaii when the U.S. population is 810 million? There is more to life than just staying at home all of the time. At some point, we do reach a limit where continued population growth is no longer desireable. Where do we agree that limit is and what should be done about it?

I am not arguing for limitations like China's one-child policy. I am not a doom and gloom leftist. I actually believe that the Earth is capable of sustaining a population significantly larger than we have now (See John McCarthy's website on the sustainability of human progress at www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html).

However, acceptance that the material limits to population growth are greater than commonly assumed does not necessarly mean that unlimited population growth is desireable from a quality of life stand point.

I do think that promoting population growth for its own sake is wrong headed. I argue that the best position for policy makers is to take a neutral stance on population growth, with emphasis on the quality of human capital. Julian Simon's premise is correct IF and ONLY IF you assume that the population is composed of people who are intelligent, self-starter types. This, of course, brings up the issue of immigration and the kinds of people having kids, which I don't want to go there now.

More folks?
I would rather see an increase in children being born to native born Americans than achieving population growth through immigration. Not that I advocate living in a shack in the woods, but if we did cut back our consumption a bit it wouldn't be a bad thing.

tanabear
Good call

You can find his kind of thinking rooted in the Green Party.
Looking for diversity in opinion? HAH!
Just another Socialist.

Zero Pop Growth
My mother took my 3 brothers, 2 cousins and me shopping one day in the early '70s. Total of 6 kids in tow, all looking like siblings. The clerk made a disgusted face and a comment as that she had too many kids for one person. My mother's response? "Well, which one do you think I should send back?"

ZPG has been going on for a long time. There is plenty of space currently for added population in the US. I hate the slow/no growth advocates in CA. If they continue their policies, my children will not be able to afford to live where they grew up.

Also, don't we have the intellectual ability to use spaceflight to relieve the pressures of human growth on the earth? We have the technology to research and send colonies into space a la Star Trek if we put our minds to it.

bsinglet
"ZPG has been going on for a long time. There is plenty of space currently for added population in the US. I hate the slow/no growth advocates in CA. If they continue their policies, my children will not be able to afford to live where they grew up."

ME: O.K., so assuming for sake of argument we allow California to be developed according to the desires of the marketplace. Wouldn't we eventually reach a point at which we would have to say "no more development"? Obviously, there is only so much land, even if some of it is still currently unpopulated. At what point do you think we should stop plowing over productive farmland to build subdivisions? Also, there are reasons why much of California is still empty. It's pretty hard to live east of the Sierra Nevada without water. Where do you think that will come from?

"Also, don't we have the intellectual ability to use spaceflight to relieve the pressures of human growth on the earth? We have the technology to research and send colonies into space a la Star Trek if we put our minds to it."

ME: Maybe, but what are you willing to cut in order to do that? We have a $9 trillion debt and a spiraling trade deficit. Just paying our imported energy bill adds billions more each year. How do you think we can afford to put a colony of, like, six guys on the moon? Plus, it takes A LOT of energy to lift stuff into space. Perhaps it would be better to just not grow beyond what the Earth can provide?

I don't understand that. Why are so many people allergic to the idea that unlimited growth is neither possible nor desirable? If you say that you'd like to protect some open space, you're a pinko commie liberal. It's easier for some here to contemplate expending billions of dollars on schemes that may never work (e.g. space colonies) rather than just accept that maybe we should throttle back a bit on growth. This attitude will eventually spell our economic doom. When you construct a socio-economic system entirely around the idea that only high growth is good, then anything short of high growth is unacceptable. But high growth is unsustainable in the long term. What about just having a good life and feeding the people who are here and their replacement offspring? What's wrong with that, especially when the alternative is progressively degraded environment and living standards (been to Los Angeles lately?).

Mencken
Have you ever heard of free market enterprize?
Since when is it the Governments job to shuttle those who want to go to space.
Governments job is research.
Free enterprize will colonize space,and beyond.

Solar
So, wait...the free market should shuttle people to space, but yet "[g]overnments job is research"? Why shouldn't the free market do all the research, too?

If the free market could economically shuttle people into space, then why hasn't it happened? I'll tell you why...because it isn't economical. It requires the subsidy of our tax dollars, at least for now. There are only so many tourists willing and able to pay millions of dollars to go into space on a tourist jaunt (before you tell me that most of the proposed private space ventures would be cheaper than that, please take note that those are *suborbital* flights).

The dirty secret of American capitalism is that profits are privatized and risks socialized, and you would have more of the same. Let the taxpayers bear the risk of the R&D, and let the corporation profit from the results. You socialist.

Excuse me....
....I am 71 years old now and I am the youngest of 10 children.I have 9 children of my own,8 girls and one boy.I have 40 grandchildren and 2 great grandchildren.Any question on where I stand on the issue?

All my life I have heard these arguments and wringing of hands about how the world and the USA are going to he!! in a hand basket because of overpopulation.I lived through the Earlich and his ilk's "experts" learned predictions and laughed at them at the time.I was right.They were wrong.End of story.Many,if not most,of the posters on this site are wrong.Future generations will find a way.Just because we cannot se how they will find does not mean they won't.We are all descendants of immigrants (immigrants have always been America's secret weapon),even the North American Indians.In fact,all our ancestors walked out of Africa.And every argument being given here were made in every generation of Americans throughout our history.And they were wrong.

So will everyone please relax.

Abundance
It is surprising that the Malthusian delusion has become so influential again at this time in history, when the commercial breakout into space, delayed for 30 years by the malfeasance of NASA, is finally happening. The immense resources of the solar system are out there, waiting for us.

Mencken, above, chose a particularly silly example when he wrote "Steel that has been made into a car and that has now rusted and worn away does not just magically become ore again." The near-Earth asteroid Amun, which is easier to reach than the Moon, is made of stainless steel. It contains 30 times more iron than the human race has used to date. (it is also rich in platinum and other precious metals). There is enough iron in the asteroid belt to encase the whole Earth in a steel shell, half a mile thick.

It is true that, under NASA mismanagement, the cost of getting off Earth has been very high, something like $10,000/kg. Mining the platinum in Amun would be economic, even at these prices. However, the energy needed to put 1 kg in orbit is less than 12 kWh, which is worth about 80 cents. It will be a long time before we approach that price for spaceflight, but the boom in space commerce will begin when the price of launch drops below $1000/kg. Commercial developments now under way (in which I am professionally involved) mean that that will happen before 2010.

In a thousand years, there will be human cities on a hundred planets of a hundred stars in our corner of the galaxy -- and our race will then be immortal, even after Sol becomes a red giant. In the long run (>100,000 years, which is a long time by human standards but a mere instant by cosmological standards) the human population of the galaxy will be at least billions of billions.


Raising Children is not for wimps.
I agree with this article.
When my husband and I were expecting our fourth child, some of our acquaintances relished telling us that we were "crazy."
As it has turned out, all of our children are considered of "gifted" intelligence—all are either college grads or heading to college soon. All are contributing to the world in one way or another. One (our third child) has an IQ in top 99.9%—he will soon graduate with high honors with a bachelor's degree in Chemical engineering. He is planning on going to grad school & work in pharmaceutical development & cancer research.
The key is not how many children you have—but how much you as parents are willing to invest in giving of your love & time in order to raise them properly. We made sure they were all given a home life that included spiritual, emotional, intellectual, & physical elements. Our time as parents was spent helping with homework, chauffering them to school, religous instruction and sports. We were often very busy trying to accommodate them. It isn't easy to stand up against pop culture. We're the kind of parents that don't allow the kids to have TV in their rooms—that make them abide by a curfew—that don't tolerate teenage drinking, etc. Now we a definitely "reaping what we have sown."



Mencken
You wrote:
"The dirty secret of American capitalism is that profits are privatized and risks socialized,

What kind of statement is that?
Are you an Idiot?

The Government takes the risks with our tax dollars for research and devolopment for military purposes,That is the main responcesibility of the GOV. and it was not intended to be anything any where near what it has become.
Have you heard of Magnetic resonance Imageing, or Teflon, or Correll, the two latter are now brand names.
Guess where they had their inception?.....NASA!
That is how we will go to space and beyond,from R&D done by our tax dollars.
So private industry can make a profit,
The simbiotic relationship we have
has not failed us yet.
We are the Greatest Nation on Earth because of it!

Solar
What kind of statement is that? What kind of question is that? It says what it says. My tax dollars are being used to fund all manner of research, some of which leads to enormous profits for private interests. Sure, I might benefit in that I earn a wage and can then buy products put out by those companies. But it sure would be nice if my investment led to part ownership instead of a wage.

Another example is the government using tax dollars or the tax dollar-funded instruments of government to bail out American banks lending money to third-world countries, or hedge funds. If Wall Street actually believed its free market bull, American companies would have to eat their poor investments rather than being bailed out by the government. So, cut with the free market crapola. You just said it yourself that the government and industry are in a symbiotic relationship. That's not the free market.

Mencken
What part of your anatomy are you listening with?
I said'very clearly,that the Government was established for one purpose.
That was to protect the union of the states from foreign invaders.
From which our R&D in weapon systems,has brought us numerous inventions and discoveries.
If you want to complain about welfare to other countries,then complain to the Demos.
As a conservative I have no interest in giving our treasure away.

A socialist eh?
"You can find his kind of thinking rooted in the Green Party.

Looking for diversity in opinion? HAH!
Just another Socialist."

Socialists are opposed to abortion and contraception? News to me. Socialists are all about the regulation of fertility rather then encouraging each person to have the freedom to raise a family as large as he likes.

My point on immigration assumes several things. First of all, emigration has always been associated with population growth in the country from which people emigrate. You see this in Europe where people left Europe to seek opportunities in North America. You do not see large amounts of emigration from countries which have declining populations, as the people who live there have no incentive to move.

True, they would have a higher standard of living in the US, but that in itself is generally not the only incentive for folks to emigrate. If they have what they need to live a decent life in their home country and they have a job there, they are going to be much less likely to move elsewhere.

The combination of increasing development and decreasing birthrates will slow the numbers of immigrants everywhere, including Mexico. Yes many Mexicans would say that they would rather live in the US, but would they be willing to leave their job and their families?


population growth and immigration
"Ironically, the individuals I know that are most concerned about population growth are the same folks that aren't too concerned about open boarders."

Yes, because generally folks fall across two spectra. The folks on the left who love immigration and hate people in general, so they push down the birthrate and encourage higher rates of immigration to make up the balance.

Then they are the folks who do like people but want a secure botder to protect themselves from people coming from other countries. These are the isolationists. It's interesting how much both sides have in common with one another.

However there are some folks who do want to see the birthrate increased at the same time as lowering immigration restrictions because they see people as invaluable to the increase of wealth of any nation. Without the people, the US would be much poorer.

Earth Calling Ben Kenobi and Factualist
Ben Kenobi states, "Yes many Mexicans would say that they would rather live in the US, but would they be willing to leave their job and their families"? Have you read the news lately, been to the DMV, walked into a Wal-Mart? They are leaving -- not their jobs or their families because they don't have any jobs to leave and most of the family members are tagging right along; but nonetheless they are leaving Mexico for the U.S. More will certainly follow as large pockets of the states begin to resemble their homeland and the fears of a strange world and assimilation are effectively eliminated

"Without the People the U.S. would be much poorer" Fine then why don't we simply allow any and everyone to come right in. Why not 2 billion desperately poor immigrants? Why not 3 billion desperately poor immigrants? More is always better - right? People = Power - right? And if you are wrong then you and Factualist can zip off to outer space to start your galactic colonization plan and assume your population nirvana of billions and billions.

Have you guys ever heard of the law of diminishing returns? Quality vs. Quantity?


Talk About Pie in the Sky!
Population growth issues are what separate true from false conservatives. True conservatives realize that the root of conservative is conserve. A wise person makes optimal use of the earth's resources in order to hand it off to their descendents in at least as good shape as they found it. For you libertarians out there, Locke's Second Treatise says much the same thing. A person can take as much out of nature's bounty as they need, so long as as good and as much is left for others. Christians follow God's commandments to go forth and multiply but also to exercise stewardship over the earth and its creatures.

False conservatives on the other hand, are the worshippers of Mammon. Greed, one of the 7 Deadly Sins, is elevated to the chief virtue. Nothing matters except making a fast buck. And those bucks had best increase every year come what may. Aristotle viewed money as being un natural. Having money reproduce itself (usury) was considered to be profoundly unnatural. St. Paul considered usury and sodomy to be similar vices. But, to many false conservatives, stewardship, prudence, and conservation are profoundly stupid. What really matters is consumption, greed, and money, and the free market will sort everything out. If we make a real mess out of this world, don't worry, we will conjure up space ships, and leave our home planet a shambles and move on to do the same to others. Growth Is God!

Now, our current propulsion technology is utterly incapable of lifting the required payloads for colonization even to Mars, which is not exactly a paradise waiting to be settled by libertarian pioneers. I have this on the authority of a senior rocket test scientist at NASA. So, those misguided fools who think we can trash this planet and then blithely move on to others are mistaken. Now, it is remotely possible to develop better propulsion methods, but a more prudent course would be to more carefully manage our existing resources. People who prefer to believe in science fiction rather than stewardship remind me of the old computer programming cartoon where two programmers are looking at a flow chart with an action box stating "then a miracle occurs" and the comment is that more work is needed in this part of the program.

I am watching much of the best farmland in the world covered with housing developments. These are going to require more water than the aquifers here can supply over a significant amount of time. We humans are clever and ornery creatures, but we still have range capacity issues. We need food, water, energy, and other resources which the economists tell us are scarce and likely finite. Prudence tells us that we must plan accordingly. Whichever wing one belongs to, and I am more conservative than most on this blog, there are limits to growth. We cannot plan to expand population infinitely. Now, I like people. I really like people. And while I have no known offspring of my own, I have yet to meet any parent who would really like to send any of their children "back." There are limits to growth, and also limits regarding human scale. Rather than destroying ourselves with excessive and unsupportable growth, we conservatives are going to have to decide to once again conserve and not put our hopes on pie in the sky.


Bountyhunter20
That was probably the most intelligent post of the day. Seriously.

Whose numbers, Padawan?
"As for the anti-immigration folks, in 50 years there will be no immigrants. World population as a whole will start to decline."

I just had to do a population study in my Environmental Issues class. One population survey I researched, and I don't have the link right now but could probably supply it, referred to a study by the UN. They had 3 scenarios, rosy, median, and disastrous. The middle-of-the-road scenario said world population of 8.5 billion in 50 years. The good news is that China will be down around 600 million as their 1-child policy kicks in. India is projected to be at 1.6B, the US around 390M. Largest growth rates are expected to be in Africa and Asia, with modest increases in South American and Australia.

I don't know whose study you read that said world population would be declining, but I think it's wrong, though it would be a good thing for the world ecosystem if it did. It's possible that my UN study just looked at current trends and did not allow for industrial development (leads to smaller families) and empowering women in family matters and yours did.

I'd like a link to the study.

Just 2 more comments
1) Have you even been to Japan? Korea? Here's one more likely: NYC? Billions of people. Studies show that they're just about as happy as you are. No, it probably isn't the life for you, and yes, they consume alot, but your kids and your kid's kids aren't you either and they'll consume far less. They'll be easily provided for.

I've lived in Korea, and Berlin, and in rural areas too? Guess what? Their beaches and resort areas aren't too crowded most of the time.

2) The technology for terraforming other planets (planets like earth - ie. other galaxies) won't be ready for another 500 - 1000 years. Those are just the facts. Remember we're supposed to be in flying cars right now? The mistake everyone made 50 years ago was that it's only twice as hard to settle the moon as to stand on it. They thought it was only slighly more difficult to send someone to Mars than to the moon. What Neil Armstrong was easy. We're in the stone age when it comes to planet colonization. In fact, I'm not even sure we qualify for "stone age".

Sorry to burst your bubble, people. By the time we learn to Terraform Mars, we will have come up with a different (and very acceptable) population solution 100's years earlier. Settling the galaxy is another near impossibility, at least for the next couple 1000 years. There are lots of reputable websites that have studied this analytically and realistically (beware of the hype).

who has mcmansions and large SUV's
From what I have observed, the people I know who have McMansions and large SUV's are not having their fifth or sixth child. Those I have seen with large houses and SUV's typically have only 1 or 2 children, and often no children at all. Those I know with 5 or 6 children typically live in a small house, and drive an older van or mini-van.

McMansions and large SUV's are for those families with 2 incomes, and few large families have the resources for these things.
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