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Sunday, June 14, 2009
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Indulging Our Health Care Fantasies
by Steve Chapman
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


It's been 15 years since President Clinton's health care reform plan went down to defeat, and the problems it was supposed to fix have only gotten worse. Costs have soared, the number of uninsured has risen and public dissatisfaction has mounted.

But now, at last, we are all ready to do what must be done. As President Obama puts it, "I really think that the stars may be aligned here."

Don't bet on it. The Clinton plan lost partly because Americans were not willing to accept that you can't have it all. From everything that has occurred since then, it's apparent they are still unwilling.

*** Special Offer ***

The Obama administration understands this crucial point, which is why it has undertaken to assure us that everything we like about the current health insurance system will stay the same, while everything we don't like will be replaced. And, we are led to believe, it won't cost you and me anything.

Estimates of the cost of Obama care start at $1.2 trillion over the next decade. The administration believes it can cover about half that amount through tax increases on the rich and greater efficiencies in Medicare and Medicaid. But it's hard to find anyone else who shares that touching faith. When I asked Robert Bixby, head of The Concord Coalition, a bipartisan fiscal watchdog group, he said, "I don't see any plausible way of getting the savings they need to add the expanded coverage in a deficit-neutral way."

There are only three ways to pay for this expansion of health insurance coverage: increased taxes, reduced benefits or shiny gold ingots falling out of the sky. Voters emphatically prefer the latter option, so that is the one most likely to be embraced by Congress and the administration.

If health insurance were such a vital asset, you would think Americans would be more than happy to make sacrifices to get it. After all, it assures timely and adequate treatment in times of sickness, peace of mind in times of health, the prospect of a longer and happier life, and protection against financial ruin. Health care reform is supposed to make those blessings available to all.

But when most people talk about reform, what they really mean is guaranteeing the same or better coverage than they now have, but at a lower price. A recent Kaiser Family Foundation/Harvard School of Public Health poll found that 49 percent of Americans aren't willing to pay more in insurance premiums or taxes.

Of those who could accept higher taxes to finance a new system, most are thinking of higher taxes on someone else. As the researchers explained, "The only options with majority support were those likely to impact the fewest people, in particular smokers and the wealthy."

Even among the uninsured, the enthusiasm for insurance is muted. When another Kaiser poll asked uninsured adults how much they would be willing to pay to get coverage, only 64 percent would fork out $100 a month and just 29 percent would pay $200. Given that most are not poor, why is it so important to provide the uninsured with something they don't value highly?

One way to bring down the cost of health insurance is to limit access to certain doctors, treatments and medicines. But the Kaiser/Harvard poll found most people are averse not only to paying more but also to anything that would "involve government limiting or dictating their choices."

Or anyone else, by the way. Most people have forgotten that in the 1980s, the private sector devised an ingenious way to reduce medical outlays. Known as managed care, it put modest restrictions on the freedom of patients to get care from specialists, limited hospital stays and gave doctors incentives to choose less costly therapies. It saved money, and it didn't appear to reduce the quality of care.

It was a perfect remedy, except for one thing: Patients and doctors hated it. Why? Because it kept them from behaving as though cost is no object.

So managed care is history. But the dilemmas it addressed are not.

One of these days, we'll have to address them, but not now. The administration would rather pretend we can get generous government-sponsored coverage for everyone without higher taxes, higher insurance premiums or rationing of health care. In short, it refuses to treat us like grownups. I wonder why.

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Something for nothing
Most of the people in this country want something for nothing. They are used to government welfare and want more and more.

h20skier
I am so glad you commented here and I hope you see my comment. On another post about universal healthcare you mentioned something to the effect of, a medical savings account would be good if it rolled over from year to year rather than losing the money if you didn't use it. I commented back to you that day but I don't know if you saw it so I will repeat what I said.

Health saving's accouts (HSA's) do roll over from year to year. There is a limit on how much you can contribute annually and it changes from year to year. Currently for the year 2009 a single person can contribute $3000.00, a married couple or family $5,950.00, if you are over the age of 55 you can contribute an additional $1000.00 on top of those figures. If you never touch this money, it rolls over from year to year and it earns interest tax-free. The money can only be used for qualified medical expenses. Lots of banks offer HSA's.

A flexible spending account such as Payflex does not roll over from year to year and the funds have to be used by the end of the year or you lose them.

Hope this helps!

Entitlements
A lot of people in this country feel this is an entitlement along with a lot of other things. Yet they aren't willing to change their lifestyle habits to be healthy, reach optimum health or stay healthy.

A person has to take responsibilty for themselves and be proactive when it comes to managing your health just as a person has to be reponsible for showing up to work, paying the bills, raising kids, etc.

And yes sometimes no matter how hard a person tries to do the right thing by eating right, exercising, not smoking or drinking excessively, bad things happen such as cancer, a car accident. But this is where insurance comes in. I believe in insurance being for something catastrophic. My young children, my spouse and I all go to the doctor once a year for a physical. We try to eat right and be active. We have a high deductible insurance policy and a health savings account for if the catasrophic happens.

Medicare and Medicaid
These two systems are broke and Obama thinks a universal system will lower costs? Who currently funds Medicare and Medicaid- the taxpayers. If we add millions of uninsured/ underinsured, how will this be payed for? Again the taxpayers with an increase in taxes. Where will this increase in taxes come from? From the scam called climate change otherwise known as global warming and the cap and trade system along with every other tax going up because of it.

Uninsured
The turrd world poor are already getting lavish medical coverage compared to where they've illegally immigrated into the country from. The worst ghetto hospital affords them better coverage than they could ever expect ANYWHERE else - including socialist medicine darlings of the left like UK, Canada, Cooba, etc.

As to the 'uninsured', there's a reason they are 'uninsured' - they chose to be 'uninsured'. If they don't work and are poor, they are covered by medicaid. If they are old, poor or not, they are covered by medicare. If they are working, they are most likely covered under a group medical plan. If they are between jobs, they have to opt out of the COBRA transfer provisions of medical insurance.

ONE big reason why young people CHOOSE not to be insured: STATE MANDATES. People are not allowed to buy the coverage they want such as in an auto policy, in an individual policy of health insurance, they are required to pay for a whole long list of coverages they don't want - or want to pay for.

In some states, the list is sickeningly endless: sex change operations; psych counseling; pediatric, etc. When faced with having to subsidize someone else's elective cosmetic/pervert surgeries, rather than their own catastrophic exposures, people decide to self insure.

This is the CRISIS the fascists now want to use to take control of a sixth of the economy and gain life and death control over every one of our lives.

I SAY NO.

To Grubby.
Those who do not want to pay for sex changes, breast implants, tattoo removal, etc. need to realize that they would pay little toward it anyway. Welfare recipients, yeah, the recipients of the once a year welfare catchup payment known as the "Earned Income Tax Credit, already get all those things FREE on Medicaid."

The article and comments are junk

The article is typical Townhall propaganda, selectively citing polls and distorting reality as much as possible.

The comments are deeply disturbing. Sorry people, but medicare and medicaid are not broke. People in this country do not want something for nothing. Obama is not a fascist This is all just ridiculous nonsense.

The situation is quite simple. The US is by far the richest country in the history of the planet. There is absolutely no reason we could not (easily) provide universal healthcare for our citizens, as is done by virtually all the civilized countries in the world.

Why haven't we done this? First, our government has been bought by health-related industries (insurance, pharma, medical technology, etc). which basically bribe our representatives in order to continue gouging American citizens. Democrats are not without blame, but 90% of the blame goes to the republicans. 2) Our people, and again it's mainly conservatives, are rather lacking in empathy.


Obama and 'The Polishing of the Turds'

The legacy of Barack Obama will be written in History as 'The Polishing of the Turds'.

The expression (polishing turds) is used mostly in the Software Industry and means to make a piece of poorly written and virtually unfixable software appear to function by giving it a 'Smart' and Pleasant user interface.

You may have noticed that Barack Obama uses the word 'Solve' quite often.

Obama states he will 'Solve' the Education crisis.

Obama states he will 'Solve' the Economy crisis.

Obama states he will 'Solve' the Islamic Terrorist crisis.

Obama states he will 'Solve' the Health Care crisis.

Obama uses his 'Toothy Smile' and 'Teleprompter Words', in an attempt to 'Polish Turds' that have never worked or never will.

Totalitarian Indoctrination of children in Government Schools, like the Vladimir Lenin 'Turd', “Give us the child for 8 years and it will be a Bolshevik (Marxist/Communist) forever”, is 'Shined Up' and called 'Social Justice'.

Nationalizations of Major American Industries, is 'Shined Up' from the Marxist/Socialist 'Turd' and called 'Saving and Creating Jobs'.

The 'Turd' of Islamic Jihad (which promises death and destruction), is 'Shined Up' and called 'Mutual Acceptance' and 'Working Together'.

The 'Socialized Health Care Turd' is 'Shined Up' and called 'ObamaCare for All'.

When Barack Obama asks his followers, 'Can You Help Me Polish these Turds' - they Chant in unison 'Yes We Can'.

Entitlements......
There was a time when Congress felt that everyone was entitled to own a home. We can now see the results of that!

Compassion = Conservatives
Dr. Douglas talks about the lack of compassion from conservatives. In reality it is conservatives that practice real compassion for our neighbors. Studies repeatedly show that conservatives donate much more of their time and fortune than liberals. Real compassion comes from helping our neighbors do for themselves. Independence is key to a vital life, dependency steals that vitality and dignity. I suggest that conservatives donate more than liberals because they believe it is their responsibility to help others less fortunate. Liberals don't think it's their responsibility but the responsibility of others to help. And the biggest Other of all is government! To liberals I would say, get off your self absorbed butts and give of yourselves and your wealth as conservatives do.

As for universal health care being affordable, are you living under a rock? Have you not noticed our national debt? Have you not noticed that country after country is abandoning the dollar for other currencies? Are you not aware that the unfunded debt of Social Security and Medicare combines exceeds 100 trillion dollars? Are you not aware that our nations fiscal health is near terminal?

Universal health insurance
What about tort reform? Lower the doctors insurance and we can make ours more affordable. I've never seen anything run by the government that was efficient.

Greed Implosion
The real goal of Nationalized Health Insurance is to provide insurance for people who don't want to pay for it (i.e. people making less than $40k, the young, people who want something for nothing). This adequately describes much of the democratic voting base.

Many welfare recipients would rather have $300 iPhone, $200 Nikes and a weight problem than actually pay any amount for something as dubious as insurance. Oh, don't forget that free house that Fannie Mae rhrew them into to the tune of $2.4 trillion.

This is just one more giveaway to the Dem base, kinda like GM to the unions. Like the unions, the govt just keeps chipping away at what is acceptable "compensation" for their base, until it all implodes.

Immortality is just around the corner
By the way, our various governments have been using our "health and welfare" for decades to co-opt our freedom. Cap and Steal, Seat belts, stoplight cameras, reduced speed limits, work zone penalties, etc., all requiring more taxes of one sort or another.

Disposable income equals freedom.

One would think, with all that they've taken from us in the name of good health, that we would now be immortal.

Ruth
Great point about tort reform. But you forgot about the Lawyer/Buffoon Running the nation. Taking money out of lawyers' pockets would hurt the recovery - unlike say, closing down dealerships, which will help it.

Remember, without insurance companies, lawyers would go broke. That's why they work thru the govt to force us to carry coverage. They are all crooks, using government to work the system.

$100.00 a month
I WOULD be willing to " fork " over 1-2 hundred a month, IF [1] I had an extra couple hundred to spend, [2] that a couple of hundred actuly was worth something. [3] IF I was not already being taxed to death and am still not even seeing a fizzle for my " buck " let alone any " bang "....
The government can not even run a whore house { see the infamous Mustang Ranch } so why should any of us think that they have a snow ball in hell's chance of running any kind of health care???

A lack of understanding...
The cost of health insurance will not go up. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

If every American drives a tiny smart car the earth will not be burned to a crisp. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

Increasing spending is the way to reduce debt. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

Rising unemployment is a sign that jobs are being saved or created.
Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

America sucks. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

Islam is our friend. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.

No one earning less than $250,000.00 per year will pay higher taxes. Obama said so. Therefore, it must be true.
(Unless of course you smoke, drink, drive a car, heat your home, use electricity, farm, eat farm products, drink water, inhale, exhale, or use or consume any thing made or sold by anyone earning more than $250,000.00 per year.)

Obama is like a god. Government is the source of our salvation.
Newsweek magazine and The New York Times said so.
Therefore, none of this can possibly be true.

The streets are lined with gold and there are no cats in America. Obama said so.

Happy Now?

A Blood Shoots Out Of Eyes Duo

#1) The IRS is considering taxing, as your personal income, 25% of your work-related cellphone usage, including, without limitation, incoming calls and text messages.

#2) Obama believes that he can generate $650bn to put towards HIS healthcare program by prohibiting the Federal government from paying US hospitals.


It is about time we familiarize ourselves with the lyrics of L'Internationale.

Little gray houses for you and me, but not for the Establishment.

Now Parker,
America without cats?!? We love our kitties! Please, pick something else America can do without! :)

Love your post, otherwise!

Dr. Dougie

Thanks for the laugh. I so enjoyed your fantastical post that I printed and cut it out. It is now taped next to the Peanuts cartoon in the Times-Picayne. My young son cannot decide which is funnier.

Name one single government program
that has worked. (Definition of "worked:" either produced a profit or at least didn't need constant subsidies; contributed to the greater good of society.)

Social Security?
Medicare?
Medicaid?
Fannie Mae?
The USPS?
VA hospitals?
the Internal Revenue Service?
Whip Inflation Now (President Ford)?
HillaryCare?
the "Stimulus" Bill?
the American school system?
the War on Poverty?
the War on Drugs?
Amtrack?
Hybrid cars?
No Child Left Behind?
Prohibition?
Management of our Petroleum Resources?
Nuclear Power?
Government-subsidized abortion?
Management of the monetary system?

With this dismal track record, we continue to invest hope in the ability of government to manage anything. We're Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football. "...but the next one will work." Pity us as a nation. Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.

War On ObamaCare
Did you watch the morning shows this morning? If not, let me give you a little recap.

Senator Christopher Dodd (D-CT) stated he is against taxing healthcare benefits, the governmental option, and restricting the choices available by patients.

Plus, read how the business community is united and has declared war on ObamaCare here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/06/14/govern ment-health-care-derail-cooperation-hopes/

And, see how BOTH Senators from Illinois may now be in trouble here:

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/13/durbin-cashed-out-on- inside-information-sun-times/

Who Is The Largest Employer In The UK?

Britain's National Health Service.

In fact, who is the largest employer in the EU?

Once again, that would be Britain's National Health Service.

And, what is only one of the comment refrains concerning the NHS in Britain?

A death a day because the doctor is away....


Not to mention, that it and other entitlement programs have depleted the treasury of the UK, made it lose it AAA credit rating, AND is causing Britain to print Monopoly money.

my letter to Dr. NO, Senator Coburn
Here is from Okla.

Dr. Coburn,

If citizens and the Congress insist that there be a single-payer health plan, here is an idea that should be looked at. This is page one, of a 5,000 page document, but it must start somewhere.

I’ve talked to several doctors and pharmacists and to economists, PhDs and others, and they all think it sounds great.

Health care would be free to all, except all would pay taxes and a co-pay, rather than for health care insurance.

The way to reduce Health Care costs is simple. Just eliminate all insurance companies, their buildings, computers, and employees, and get rid of all Government health care employees. That would also eliminate the people in each and every doctor’s office and hospital, who spend their day filling out insurance forms.

I understand that there is a list of the procedures and the cost of each, for various parts of the Country.

Give every qualified doctor, hospital, and pharmacy a blank checkbook so they could write a check each evening for all the services they had provided that day.

Find the right line on every income tax form, multiply that number by a percentage that would equal the total cost of health care. Based on that number, issue a card that would tell the co-pay (a progressive number, based on income). No one would get in for free, with maybe at least a dollar for those who can prove they had little or no income.

Just hire a bunch of auditors to randomly check and made sure they aren’t stealing any more than is being stolen today. And on and on.

And I bet the cost would be cut in half.

Health costs in this country are so high because these days, a $5,000 funeral, is delayed by a much more expensive medical procedure.

Those costs could be reduced if the doctor was not permitted to use a medical procedure, or prescribe a pill that the patient can not pronounce.

St Denis
Somehow methinks Chris Dodderer's poll numbers being down are a large part of his being against ObamaoCare, otherwise he'd be singing its praises!

What Is Health Insurance?
Unfortunately, when most people hear the words "health insurance" they think "unlimited access to free health care". What very few realize is that the current health care system, despite having all of the imperfections inherent to any human devised enterprise, does provide on the whole excellent care to virtually anyone who needs it, ane WE ARE PAYING FOR IT RIGHT NOW. The biggest problems lie in the third party payer system in which neither the consumers or providers of health care participate in the majority of cost decisions. Life enhancing proceedures are being performed at higher than ever rates, but they all cost a lot of money and someone pays for them in one way or another. You want a knee replacement? It costs about $25K, Heart bypass surgery, $50-60K and up.Any time one of these is done, the bills get paid, but the actual cost is hidden in the price of everything we buy.

ObamaCare Suffers More Defections
Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) said this weekend that he opposes a public option plan for consumers in a healthcare reform plan to emerge from the Senate.

“I don’t favor a public option,” Lieberman told Bloomberg News in an interview broadcast this weekend. And I don’t favor a public option because I think there’s plenty of competition in the private insurance market.” …

“We have a unique opportunity, a real opportunity to do this year what we’ve been trying to do for years, which is to reform American healthcare,” Lieberman said. “I think the one thing that will stop that is pressure on the so-called public option.”

Other Democrats in the Senate, mostly from the red states, have also retreated from the public plan. Mary Landrieu (LA) and Ben Nelson (NE) have not quite announced opposition to it, but have sounded skeptical notes. Even if Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins join the Democrats, it would not take more than the three Democrats to uphold a filibuster on the entire bill, and we have yet to hear an explicit stand from other red-state Democrats such as Blanche Lincoln and Mark Pryor (AR), as well as Max Baucus and Jon Tester (MT).

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/14/lieberman-opposes-pub lic-plan-in-obamacare/



AliveInHim

Yes, Dodd would be singing a different tune. Last time I looked, he had received less than $1,000 intrastate. The rest of his campaign contributions came from out-of-state companies and individuals. You can be certain that businesses are giving him an earful.

They do call Dodd "The Senator form MBNA", after all.

What are the options?
1. Make no significant changes. The U.S. continues to pay more per capita than any other nation on earth for a health care system that the WHO consistently ranks 37th in the world in terms of public health outcomes. Uninsured people continue to clog emergency rooms, medical costs continue to be the main cause of personal bankruptcy, people with limited incomes continue to choose between food/rent or medicine, & U.S. companies remain at a competitive disadvangtage with foreign competitors because of health care costs.
2. Adopt the single-payer option favored by the other industrialized democracies. This would require major changes in drug costs, doctor fees, medical malpractice awards, medical school costs, the insurance industry, and how services are allocated. Virtually all the rules would have to be rewritten by politicians.
3. Continue the private insurance programs AND have a public-payer component. Allow the systems to fairly compete with each other. Instead of mandating an overhaul of the entire health care system, let consumer choice help determine it over time.
After several decades, it's clear the the private-insurance-based system is inadequate to meet national health care needs. There are many reasons for this, nearly all of them related to the fact that health care isn't merely a commodity -- it's a human right with complex components. Ho health care system is perfect, but ours has become a costly, impractical mess. I vote for option 3.

3rdParty

How does any company "compete" with the Government given its power to tax and to print money?

If you really want a #3 option, propose a non-governmental co-op for people, who wish to get away from private insurance carriers.

IF THE FEDERAL
Government cannot keep its promise to senior citizens who have paid billions upon billions of dollars into social security, what makes any American think they are going to manage your medical care?

This is absolute idiocy. All we have heard for years is that the baby boom generation is a bunch of greedy old people because we expect the benefits promised us. Benefits we paid for.

But instead, we keep hearing "You are just going to have to settle for less because the money is not there." And why is the money gone? Because the Fed took all the money that people paid out for social security and put it in the general fund to pay for their ear marks.

And now you want to trust them to pay for Medical Care? Are you all out of your minds?!!

The Fed must demonstrate that they can keep the promises they have already made before being trusted to deliver on anything else and particularly before being trust with anymore MONEY!!

FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!
FUND SOCIAL SECURITY FIRST!!!


Celeste
Made a very good point about Medicare and Medicaid. These two systems are already broke. How is adding millions of uninsured people going to lower costs or save the system?

My sister has cancer. She is on Medicare. She was told yesterday she has only six months to live. I can’t prove anything, but I think her doctor was incompetent. When her cancer was discovered, by accident, her tumor was very small and she had NO symptoms. Her doctor farted around for THREE WEEKS before starting her on chemo therapy. He gave her a lame excuse for not removing the tumor surgically.

He has given her only the minimum, standard treatment and now it is too late. As for lifestyle, no one lives a cleaner more health conscious life than my sister, but she got cancer anyway. She is only 67, and just a year ago retired from her job of 30 years.

Many doctors now will not take Medicare because they can’t get paid and/or they have to settle for less compensation than services are worth. The result is those on Medicare get sub-standard care. Multiply this same scenario times 300 million Americans and this is the kind of care Obama is going to give us.

Celeste
Thanks. I was not familar with the MSA and just the FlexPlan. The MSA seems to be a way for someone to save money for the need in the future without having to waste it by spending it before the end of the year.

There is nothing wrong...
...with America's healthcare system that couldn't be fixed by getting the federal government OUT of it. Medicare is broke because Congress kept raiding it to buy the votes of those who overuse it. Social Security is broke because Congress kept raiding it to buy the votes of the elderly. Those about to retire will be okay, if they don't live too long. Those entering the work force now will have a negative return on the money that is confiscated from them to pay Social Security recipient. Medicare will be completely insolvent before it hits its 50th anniversary.

Dr Douglas
"The comments are deeply disturbing. Sorry people, but medicare and medicaid are not broke. People in this country do not want something for nothing. Obama is not a fascist This is all just ridiculous nonsense."

_______________________________________________________

Dr Douglas I have posted the trustees report link below for the 2009 report, you really should read it and then come back and apologize to everyone for your prevarication above.
Obama as a fascist is becoming less debatable also, but you have a better chance with that argument.

Dr Douglas
Sorry here is the link

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TR/

Dr. Douglas
Medicare and Medicade are not broken? Well, both have over $57 trillion in unfunded liability. Social Security has $10 trillion. The federal deficit is $11 trillion. The current budget deficit for this year is $2 to $2.5 trillion. Tell me what is not broken with that.

Repulicans have offered no solutions
Republicans have offered no solutions to the America's healthcare problems and only served as obstructionists to meaningful reform.

Republicans:
*have not instituted Universal coverage.
*have not reined in excessive costs
*have even tied the hands of the government to regulate prescription drug costs to injure consumers with overpriced drugs that are mainly manufactured in China.
*allowed CEO's to abuse their position to inflate premiums and defraud shareholders.

Health Care Abuse Case #1
Dr. William McGuire (former CEO of United Health Group retired in 2006) netted $1.6 Billion that year in salary, stock options and benefits ($800,000 per hour based on 50/40 workweek model (50 weeks of 40 hour work weeks with 2 weeks unpaid vacation). Said that he "worked hard and deserved it".

Compare that hourly wage to the minimum wage that people make who scrub toilets, drive busses, sweep streets, and do the unpleasant but necessary work to make life better for everyone of us.

Dr. William McGuire is unworthy of that compensation. His unethical behavior should not go unpunished. Egregious greed is an abominable sin. He must not be allowed to keep the excess which impoverishes everyone else and drives up inflation. $1 million is the maximum permissable salary in a just society.

The government should reach into his personal account and take back all the excess payment and redistribute it back to the shareholders and premium payers who were needlessly fleeced and bankrupted to pay for his decadent lifestyle. He should also be publicly criticized as a sinful example of corporate excess as he joins the ranks of Ken Lay, Dennis Koslowski, Michael Milken, Berni Madoff and others who have used their position in various ways to gouge the public, cook the books, secure corporate welfare and bailouts at taxpayer expense, destroy U.S. businesses and erode business ethics for their own profitteering schemes.

To ropati in CA
You asked:
"Name one single government program
that has worked. (Definition of "worked:" either produced a profit or at least didn't need constant subsidies; contributed to the greater good of society.)

Social Security? Is working but will need shoring up.
Medicare? Works great and is more efficient than private insurance.
Medicaid? Same as above.
Fannie Mae? Used as a machine by private banks to gouge college students and colleges to drive up costs.
The USPS? 100% nontaxpayer funded.
VA hospitals? Need work.
the Internal Revenue Service? Taxes the poor, allows legal loopholes for welathy elites and businesses who refuse to pay their fair share
Whip Inflation Now (President Ford)? I don't know.
HilaryCare? Was killed by Republicans before enacted so it is unknown.
the "Stimulus" Bill? Too early to tell.
the American school system? Not perfect but better than ignorance
the War on Poverty? Was working but was killed by Nixon
the War on Drugs? A Nixon invention that has totally failed
Amtrack? Very efficient system. Works well and should also receive the same funding as airlines and highway construction recieves
Hybrid cars? Better than Hummers and gas guzzlers
No Child Left Behind? Failed.
Prohibition? Failed
Management of our Petroleum Resources? Mismanaged by private industry.
Nuclear Power? Was never cost efficient of clean.
Government-subsidized abortion? Necessary for poor moms with deformed fetuses.
Management of the monetary system? Ask the Federal Reserve which has cooked not just the books but the entire monetary system.
Council on Foreign Relations. Total failure. Have batted 3 for 1000 in their history of understanding and recommending policy actions.
Chamber of Commerce: A pseudo government agency that advocates offshoring jobs and inshoring illegals to cut down American workers.

First

You do not have the votes to pass single-payer healthcare. Period.

US Debt Equals $1mn Per Family
David Walker, the former US Comptroller General, says that the federal debt level is approaching $55 trillion and if you add in the what is owed on the state and local levels -- plus personal household debt -- it adds up to $75 trillion in obligations.

Walker, who now heads the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, named for the co-founder of the Blackstone Group, warned that without fiscal restraint, Uncle Sam may be guaranteeing that our future is not as prosperous as our past.

At the $75 trillion deficit level a family of four owes $1 million, he said.

Earlier this year Walker wrote on Politico.com: "Social Security and Medicare alone are already underfunded by about $44 trillion, or $146,000 per American, in today's dollars, and this number is growing on auto pilot every year by about $2 trillion, or $6,600 per American."


more UHF4-CH4
When it ain't got the balls to be bull or the substance to be sheite.

Economic Problem--High Cost
Economic Solution--greater supply.

Triple the number of docs, quadruple the number of nurses, let lots more people do most of what a doc does.

The problem here is and always has been, artificially restricted supply. OPEN UP Health Care to cheaper PROVIDERS NOT of INSURANCE but ACTUAL CARE and the costs will plummet.

That and shooting on sight any Lawyer that files a malpractice suit. Oh, and shooting everybody on the Professional Review board if they DON'T remove a Bad Doc.

mick

First
Tain't nonyadambusiness, commieqr.

He's worth exactly what people are willing to pay him to do what he does.
Just like Alex Rodrequez, Tom Brady, or Opra Winfree.

Most of us are willing to scrub our own toliets, save the money. and send the Greasybacked Reconquistas back to the cess pool they've made out of their own country.

You got absolutely NO SAY in what somebody else gets for their product.

All labor is commodity, people pay what it's worth to them.

Your attitude is equal parts envy, bigotry, covetousness and straight thievery.

upyars

Again the solution is to increase supply.

Mick

First
You name street sweepers and bus drivers in your list of under paid workers.
A report came out about 5 years ago about bus drivers in New York city. With over time and regular hours they made about 55,000 a year. here in my neck of the woods, a street sweeper would be a city employee and make about 11-12 dollars with great insurance and retirement. If that is so underpaid, we need to redefine!

First
Both Republicans and conservatives have come up with several very reasonable plans for medical care, but you haven't read any of them because it's easier for you to say "Republicans don't have a plan".

Why don't you get off the reservation once in a while. You might learn something.

CONGRESS R U LISTENING !

NO Government run health care

STOP the insanity:

Medicare a disaster
Medicaid a disaster
SChips a disaster
VA health care a disgusting disaster

HOW MUCH MORE evidence do you need:

Obscene waste, fraud and abuse in THESE government run programs, the waiting perionds for Medicaid are 12 months already.
S chips is 100% fraud, they spend 1 million per year per child, not that many kids get sick enough to use up 1 million dollars a year.

AND
AMTRAK
GM, Chrysler
The Post Office
etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

NO to any government involvement.

DID you write your senators and congressmen every day ?

R U organized for the resistance movement on July 4th.

Hip replacement in Canada is 7 years !
Why would we want Obama to pay heart surgeons minimu wage,
A D- medical graduate butcher will be your surgeon under OBAMA
NO ONE WITH A BRAIN will work for minimu wage under obama

OUR brilliant Medical Providers will leave the country and practice somewhere else.

Street Sweepers !

CITY employees are UNION and do NOT make less than 25 bucks an hour !

69 Billion for 35 million POOR KIDS !

GET OUT YOUR calculators

OBAMA is now spending 69 BILLION to "INSURE" 35 million POOR KIDS.

SO HOW MANY kids of those 35 million use over 100,000 per year in health care ?

WHERE IS THE 69 BILLION GOING ?

and they claim that is NOT EVEN ENOUGH.

Most kids NEVER spend a day in the hospital in 20 years of their lives.

WHY is OBAMA engaged in the biggest con game in the name of his psycho hype.

any NORMAL person knows that less that 2% of the kids every need any MAJOR medical proceedures. MUCH less 100,000 - 1 million dollars worth of health care per year !

IT IS ALL ONE BIG "CON"


To ms Kelly in IN.
You said:
"Both Republicans and conservatives have come up with several very reasonable plans for medical care, but you haven't read any of them because it's easier for you to say "Republicans don't have a plan".

Republicans have offered nothing and done nothing except be obstructionists and block Hillary's plan. That's unacceptable and selfish.
That's why Republicans were booted from office in 2006 and 2008 and will be booted again in 2010. Conservatives have no plan and can't govern effectively. Conservatism itself is a political dead end and is not a viable long term philosophy for governing a modern state.
I'm sorry. You people were given the reins of power. You did nothing but ruin the country. No you're going to have to move to the back seat and let people who are capable and willing to govern do their job.

A foolish plan
President Obama's plan is truly idiotic. Obama notes as evidence of "excessive" costs that 1/7 of US GDP is spent on health care. Expenditures are NOT costs. We spend far more on personal computers than in 1980, yet everybody knows an individual PC costs less and does more now than in 1980. Obviously, total expenditure on PCs says nothing about costs. The same is true with health care. For example, surgery now is less disruptive and more effective than in 1980. Properly measured "quality adjusted" health care costs are much lower now than in 1980. As with computers, the cost per unit of health care service is much less than in the past, even though we spend more dollars in total.

Also, who cares if we spend 1/7 of our income on health care? We have to spend it on something. Health care is a "luxury good" whose proportion of income rises faster than income itself. As the US gets richer and richer, the demand for health care rises faster than national income. So what? The share of income spent on personal computers also has risen over the last 40 years. So what?

Government intervention in a market is proper only when that market exhibits a market failure - monopoly power, externalities, or public goods characteristics. The health care market exhibits none of those characteristics, so no government intervention is justified.

For several reasons, Obama's plan is a terrible idea. It merely makes a further mess of a market already badly damaged by foolish federal and state interventions. Indeed, I challenge anyone to name a single serious problem in the health care market that is NOT the result of some ill-conceived government intervention.

If you want to see costs
go down, make licensing nation wide so that if a Dr. loses his job for malpractice in one state he can't go across the state line and open up shop again. Also make it law that if one Dr. knows another is screwing up then he has to report him. There is too much covering up for "fellow Dr.s" in my opine. In support of the nation wide licensing, there was a Dr. in Ohio, a Plastic surgeon, that badly disfigured a woman and when she sued, he went bankrupt and opened up shop in Va. or Ky. if I remember right. It's disgusting that he didn't lose his license in all states and never practice medicine again!

A Mixed Bag ...
http://andthepointis.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/a-mixed-bag/

Public Option is Universal Care
Public option is a fancy word for Universal care, that's what it will amount to.

If we want the costs to go down, get rid of Medicare, Medicaid and repeal, in its entirety, Title 42 of the Code of Federal Regulations. This will dramatically cut the cost of hospital care. This will allow new doctors to enter our system without jumping through expensive, useless hoops, remove major administrative costs, and cut major legal costs out of the equation.

Also, disallow tax credits for businesses offering medical insurance and move those tax credits to the individual while allowing interstate competition in medical insurance.

The Government??
I keep having nightmares about the Government being in charge of health care. I was driving home from work in my car that had "Full Coverage Insurance" and not worried about a thing when a truck ran through a red light and totaled out my car. My premium had not changed, but now the Insurance Co. only paid me for the "actual cash value" of my car. So what if my DNA decided I was going to have a heart attack, the Government would do what??? I woke up screaming.

Sick of "Health Care"
Sick and tired of hearing about "Health Care". The Earth does not evolve around "Health Care" and I couldn't give a rat's-@ss about who does or doesn't have "Health Care."

If you want Health Care -- you pay for it. If you can't pay for it, then sell all your conveniences, stop the payments for your Internet, cell phone, Blackberry, quit eating-out, ordering pizza and frequenting every amusement park in the country.

Stop renting your DVD's, turn-off your cable or satellite dish and stay out of the malls. Stop smoking, drinking beer and buying every knick-knack you see in the grocery store and Wal-Mart.

If that's still not enough, grab of the gazillion part-time jobs selling burgers and put in 10 or 20 hours a week there.

Do whatever you need to do for your g-damn health care! And if you do not want to pay for it -- then do without it!

I am sick and tired of all this whining about "Health Care".

To terry
I happen to have excellent private insurance as well as Medicare since I am over 65. Today I received in the mail a statement from Blue Cross that they paid a bill for lab work resulting from a single blood-draw. The amount? $1,334.00. Are you suggesting that the fellow without insurance should "just pay for it" when confronted with such a bill?

To First
May I add to your list:

GI Bill---sent millions of military veterans to college, graduate school, medical school and law school. Greatly expanded the middle class thereby. Increased earning power, thus changing our whole economy.

Air Traffic Control.

Coast Guard.

National Bureau of Standards---assures consumer safety in products like toasters, motorcycle helmets, light bulbs.

Food and Drug Administration before Reagan ruined it---kept Thalidomide away from America's pregnant women after seeing the birth defects it had caused in Europe.

National Parks, Forests, and Seashores---have provided wildnerness experiences to millions of Americans.

NOAA---provides invaluable weather data, does oceanographic research.

Conservatives often sound stupid, but never moreso than when they keep whining this question (which shows up on townhall every day) "Name one government program that has ever worked". Let's advance that to "Name one conservative idea that has ever been stupider than to say that government programs never work".

Just Listen
Norwegians, Dutch, Danes, Swedish, Swiss, Belgians etc are not clamoring for US-style health care. The people in these countries are hardly stupid. Do they perhaps know something conservatives should be listening to?

The Real Agenda...
"Last Thursday at a town hall meeting in Rio Rancho New Mexico President Barack Obama was asked why, when “so many people go bankrupt using their credit cards to pay for healthcare. Why have they taken single-payer off the plate (audience applause), and why is Senator Baucus on the Finance Committee discussing health care when he has received so much money from the pharmaceutical companies? Isn’t it a conflict of interest?” (more audience applause)

“Healthcare is one-sixth of our economy, so it is a complicated and difficult task. Congress is going to have to work hard, and everybody is going to have to come at this with a practical perspective as opposed to being ideologically pure in getting it done… Why not do a single-payer system? … A single-payer system is like, Medicare is sort of a single-payer system, but it’s only for people over 65, and the way it works is, uh, the idea is you don’t have insurance companies as middle men." - Barack Obama

Question: "More than 80 House Democrats are supporting a single payer, Canadian-style, Medicare for all healthcare system. It's HR 676. Why don't you support it?"

Pelosi: "I've always supported single payer."

Health insurance companies will be eliminated, people will not have a choice, bureacrats will run the system, rationing will be necessary to pay the tab, and our healthcare will be ruined.

And, Who Is Blocking It...
"Howie Klein has a rundown of all the money that the people who are blocking real reform in health care have received from the health care industry."

Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $4,026,933)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $2,833,731)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $2,758,468)

"And when you just go right to Big Insurance, the non-presidential candidates who got the biggest legalized bribes were the 7 senators who have been tasked with the job of killing single-payer":

Ben Nelson (DLC-NE- $1,196,799)
Max Baucus (DLC- MT- $1,184,113)
Joe Lieberman (DLC- CT- $1,036,302)
Arlen Specter (R-D- PA- $1,035,530)
Chuck Schumer (D-NY- $981,400)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY- $929,207)
Chuck Grassley (R-IA- $884,724)

Obama does not have the votes in the Senate and he will be unable to achieve a single-payer system with only House Liberals.

Thank God.

lilly

"Norwegians, Dutch, Danes, Swedish, Swiss, Belgians etc are not clamoring for US-style health care."


They are not planning a system along the lines of any of the above; rather, they are modeling a crap sandwich of a healthcare system after the UK and Canada.

Do yourself a favor a read the NHS' criticism of its own system and the horrors inflicted by the NICE Board, especially on the elderly.

Where's the birth certificate?
There is a solution to the Obama problem.

And if all of you really wanted to solve the Obama problem, you would be be active in forcing Obama - the fake POTUS - to release his long form birth certificate, his college transcripts, and his passport information.

Why whine, when you can help rid the nation of this facist fiend in president's clothing?

Simply visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com and get in on the fun. Save America.

WHERE'S THE Birth Certificate?

USPatriot56

Government projects that worked
Hoover Dam
Tennessee Valley Authority
Manhattan Project
Interstate Highway System
Apollo Project
Social Security
Hubble Telescope


... and on the other hand,
private enterprise disasters:

Federal Exchange Administration
Detroit auto makers (repeatedly)
Enron etc.
Silverado S&L etc.
American International Group etc.

ajhil

The CBO and many private organizations have calculated that Social Security will be insolvent in 2016.

The outstanding unfunded liabilities associated with SS are estimated to be anywhere between $56tn and $75tn.

With all due respect, I would argue that Social Security is not successful.

There are not enough younger workers paying into the system to support the retirees and soon-to-be retired workers.
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