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Sunday, April 26, 2009
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Stacking the Deck on Gay Marriage
by Steve Chapman
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The country used to be unanimous in rejecting gay marriage. But that consensus, like the polar ice sheets, is showing some cracks. Vermont recently became the fourth state to allow gays to wed, and New York will probably be next. Elsewhere, marriage remains as Miss California prefers -- solely between a man and a woman.

It's at moments like this that the framers of the Constitution begin to look even wiser than usual. Somehow they anticipated that people in Massachusetts would not want to live under exactly the same laws as people in Mississippi. So they set up a system known as federalism, which allows different states to choose different policies. Thus we simultaneously uphold majority rule and minority rights.

This, at least, is how federalism is supposed to operate -- letting subsets of the national population get their way in their own locales. There's only one hitch: In this case, it doesn't quite work that way.

Why not? Because of a huge imbalance created by that longtime nemesis of state sovereignty -- the federal government. Under the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), Virginia has complete authority to deny the privileges and responsibilities of marriage to same-sex partners. But Iowa doesn't have the complete authority to grant them.

Oh, Iowa can provide recognition to gay marriages under all its laws and policies. But that's a surprisingly small part of what marriage encompasses. Under federal law, there are more than 1,100 rights and privileges that go with being a husband or wife. And none of them is available to married same-sex couples.

Under federal law, a person may transfer property to a spouse tax-free. Married couples may file their income taxes jointly. Someone whose spouse dies is assured Social Security survivor's benefits. A married person has the authority to make medical decisions for an incapacitated partner.

Or say you're an American citizen living in this country who marries a foreigner. Normally, you would be entitled to bring your beloved to this country to live permanently and become a citizen.

But if you're both of the same sex, you can forget all of the above. Even though Iowa might like to put heterosexual and homosexual married couples on the same footing, it can't, because the federal statute blocks the way.

"In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States," says DOMA, "the word 'marriage' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife."

That decree may sound reasonable: Since most Americans and most states reject same-sex marriage, federal policy should as well. But it conflicts with how the nation has handled marriage up till now, which is to leave it up to individual states to decide who may wed -- and then honor those diverse choices.

Some states, for instance, allow marriages between first cousins; others forbid it. Some states allow 15-year-olds to marry with parental consent, while most set the minimum age higher.

And the feds? They have consistently observed a policy of staying the hell out. Washington doesn't tell Colorado and New York which marriages it will acknowledge. Colorado and New York tell it.

Not so with same-sex unions. Under DOMA, the federal government insists that some marriages are not marriages.

That's particularly hard to justify because the other major provision of the law bends over backward to protect state authority over matters marital. It says no state is obligated to recognize a same-sex marriage that took place somewhere else. Gays married in Vermont magically become single when they venture into New Hampshire.

This part of the law goes beyond the norm to accommodate different preferences. Usually, states are obligated to enforce contracts made in other states. Back in the segregationist years, Southern states often honored interracial marriages transacted beyond their borders even though they regarded them as "so unnatural that God and nature seem to forbid them."

Given the strong feelings about gay marriage, the local option is the best option. States that abhor the idea should be free to implement policies reflecting that sentiment. But the other side should have exactly the same prerogative: giving both heterosexual and homosexual couples access to marriage in full.

Our system, unlike Mao's China, is supposed to let a hundred flowers bloom. But for the best growth, the federal sun has to shine on all of them.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Chapman needs a history lesson

He writes: "But it conflicts with how the nation has handled marriage up till now, which is to leave it up to individual states to decide who may wed -- and then honor those diverse choices."


Completely incorrect. Utah was forced to ban polygamous marriages -- up to that point perfectly legal there -- in order to be granted admission to the Union.


However, in general I agree that the marriage issue is rightfully a state issue.

Thanks for fighting the GOOD FIGHT,
Steve Chapman.


I sincerely respect your courage to give your opinion here at Townhall honestly without pandering to the partisan ideologue hacks (like Michelle Malkin loves to do).

Will

Why do you say Malkin's pandering?

Just because you don't agree with her opinion doesn't mean it's not one she holds honestly. That's the same type of garbage Perez Hilton dumped on Prejean.

People are entitled to their opinons.

I would assume you believe that?

DOMA Obstructs Full Faith and Credit
That concept is central to our federal law.

This controversy is waged primarily along religious lines. The Editor of the Evangelical magazine "world" has said "take God out of the equation and there is no reason to oppose gay marriage." Look at the criminal trial that was the precedent to Loving v Virginia. The exact same religious arguments were made.

That, too, presents an issue if one respects the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

Ultimately, I have yet to entertain a single coherent argument that supports the notion that one couple's gay marriage has any effect, whatsoever, on any other couple's "traditional" marriage. In contrast, we get the fanciful ("suppose you want to marry your dog?") and that which is manufactured - as depicted by the recent NOM advertisement.

The bottom line to all of this is that we have much more important things to deal with. If gays can marry throughout the US, the earth is not going to spin off its axis.

Gays make up somewhere between 5% to 7% of the population. That is as true in Tupelo as it is in NYC. Well, maybe not Tupelo.

Well, Robert

I don't read all that much of her stuff, but I haven't seen any inconsistencies.

She doesn't seem to "pander"; she seems to state her case on issues clearly. Though one can certainly disagree with her (as I know you do!), that's no reason to doubt her sincerity.


Again?
Every month or so, it seems, Chapman comes to the Townhall website with another one of his articles in favor of homosexual so-called "marriage," to be cheered by the resident homosexual trolls. It's really getting tiresome.

The danger to society in allowing sodomy, a sexual perversion, to be legally recognized as "marriage" is that it undermines of one of society's most fundamental building blocks. Writers like Michael Medved have made all the arguments against homosexual "marriage" much better than I can, and I don't care to repeat them.

No society on the face of the earth, throughout all of human history--even those who tolerated sodomy--were foolish enough to call it marriage.

Why is this writer allowed to continue peddling his liberal drivel on this conservative website?



Jaybird

You, too, have a valid opinion. But the issue isn't really about whether same-sex marriage is or is not acceptable.

The issue is federalism and states' rights.

This issue is rightfully one that should be decided at the state level, and traditional conservatism dictates that approach.

This is where many people on the "Right", as opposed to "paleo" conservatives, make their mistake. They're perfectly happy to wrongfully use the cudgel of Big Government to advance THEIR social agenda in the same way the libs do to advance their OWN social agenda. Both are wrong.

Another example: why did the GOP try to federalize the Terry Schaivo issue?

Why have both sides federalized abortion? If that had been left as a state issue, it would have been decided and gone from the political arena decades ago.


jaybird
Steve Chapman is probably a gay conservative.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

Get over yourself already. Live and let live. It's not all about you and your agenda.


States protected from other States laws.
If you don’t like flat bread with tomato sauce and cheese on it, why did you come to a pizzeria for lunch? There are other places to eat at the food court.

I truly believe that our States have lost a lot of power to the federal government. That being said I do believe that this may be one of the few things that the feds should do. Hear me out, I am not going to debate gay marriage, I am writing regarding states rights.

Government has to look at marriage from a purely contractual point of view. If one states people vote to not allow gay marriage they should not be forced to honor another states marriage policy, unless the people of that state agree to.

If a gay couple live in a State where it is not honored, go to another State and get married, then return to their original State they could force their home State to honor something its people have voted not to.

This can set a precedence to defeat many other States laws, rights and sovereignty. I do think that is a very real agenda today. Make the fed bigger and give less choice to the citizen.

A lot of people these days do not get what they want at their local level and go running to big brother to try and cry foul to get it. This is usually done in the courts. It is not how our system was set up. The fed exists to help or protect the States. Not govern them.

It would be like me working for Microsoft and going to Mr. Gates to complain that there are no towels in the bathroom. If some one does not like how the people vote in their State they can move to one that votes the way they like. Also, if some one does not like this fundamental system for the fed and the States there are some many other countries they can move to where their version of the fed governs everything.

"Townhall" the commenter

The Full Faith And Credit clause really can't be stretched to unwillingly cover marriages from state to state as you mention, in the same way the various states have different requirements for CCW licenses -- if they issue them at all -- and don't recognize each others' licenses unless they've entered into reciprocity agreements.

The main problem here is the issue of how the federal tax system treats legally married couples. If the tax code were simplified, then that issue would be resolved, and the definition of "marriage" would no longer be a "federal" issue at all.


Incidentally, the same
thing holds true for drivers' licenses.

Here in Commiefornia, when you move here you have 30 days to get a new drivers license issued by this state, at which point your old state's license is no longer technically valid, and you CAN AND WILL get a ticket for still using it.


The more I think about it,
the more examples occur to me.

You have to pass the Bar exam in each state in which you want to pracrice law, and get a license for that state.

Your PI license is only good in your home state.

Doctors have to be certified in each state in which they want to practice.


The more I think about this, the more I realize that there are probably fewer "licenses" that are universally recognized than there are that are state-specific.


Incorrect Logic and Examples
Chapman's analysis of state versus federal issues is incorrect when it comes to same sex marriage. Marriage is defined and granted by the individual states, yes, but federal law mandates that marriages from one state must be considered valid in another.

DOMA actually protects states rights with regard to marriage by not requiring states to recognize the same sex marriage from another state. It is, in fact, the gay activists who are trying to repeal DOMA and make same sex marriage a federal issue, not those who oppose same sex marriage. If same sex marriage activists get DOMA repealed, then the 30 states which have constitutionally defined marriage as between a man and a woman will have had their states rights trampled by the will of a small minority and once again be forced to bow down before heavy-handed federalism.

I disagree, Morgan

Again, look at my examples. There are actually very few, if any, licenses issued by any state that are recognized by other states under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution.

Each state would be free to deal with the issue independantly. Here in Cali, Prop 8 clearly and simply states -- and amends our state constitution to reflect -- that in Cali the only marriages recognized by this state are between one man and one woman. Which specifically means we won't recognize same-sex marriages from other states.


What in the world??????
Are you trying to tell me there are between 15 to 20 million butt bandits in our country? Are you kidding me? Are we really that far gone?

Marriage is a religious ceremony. My religion prohibits a man laying down with another man. It's a sick, twisted, perverted act. Period. No wonder this country is going to Hell.

Lnaguage controls the debate
We fall into a trap when we use their word "gay". Call a spade a spade.

gay marriage
Get this straight (sorry for the pun) Iowa did not vote to allow it.It was the Iowa supreme court.There are now petitions to put it to the voters.Like it or not this is the way it should be.Iowa marriages by gays is not recognized by other states.

Please?
Could someone please remind me why I should care about gay marriage?

What exactly is the threat to my marriage? To my children?

Oh, that's right.... there is none.

Johnny 3:16
Don't be silly. If the schools want to teach and encourage your child in the homosexual lifestyle you will not have a say in it. Because this behavior will be as acceptable as normal behavior by the government.

I wonder what George W
and Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would have to say about immorality actually being forced upon the people by the courts.

Necessary Things
Repent from your personal sin nature
Believe that Jesus is who He said He is. That He died and rose again for our sin.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit
Sound Doctrine
Good Deeds-Obedience of God's Statutes. Which includes obedience to God's definition of marriage.



Forcing the acceptance of immorality on a nation is not progressive. It is foolish and will have undesired consequences. Every disobedience to God has undesired consequences.


If we do not have high standards
we will elect politicians with very low standards. We are becoming a failed nation because our families are failing. God made the family to be the foundation of society. He defined the family. He established the order.

High standards are God's Standards.

Did the founding fathers ever dream that marriage would have to be defined? We have fallen into complete foolishness. We are on the road to becoming Perez Hiltons. Insane and depraved with very bad manners.

A little more info
In a society where "feeling good" reigns, we have little use for the natural wisdom that has given us thousands of years of marriage between a man and woman. Yes, some societies have acknowledged homosexually -- just before their demise.

Homosexuallity is not the problem. It's one of the many symptoms of a broken society (another would be the high divorce rate). Google "ex-gay" -- you'll get a different perspective.

Why Gay Marriage is such a threat
The bottom line is, if this becomes the law of the land, every Christian, Jewish and Muslim family who teach that marriage is between a man and woman and homosexuality is WRONG, will be in direct opposition to the federal government and all it's power. Anyone who thinks that it won't get used against them is a fool. Our kids in school will be taught that their parents beliefs and family heritage is hateful and evil.
To me that is the real reason to push aginst this idiotic gay marriage so hard. If we lose this, we lose everything.

GAY Marriage
Mr. Chapman please refresh my memory; Which state was it that the people VOTED to approve gay marriage? And, which states had it imposed on them by liberal judges? Marriage isn't an institution inspired by man, it was inspired by GOD. (Genesis)Judges can say what they want, TRUE marriage is defined by GOD. Government got involved when they thought they could make money from it!

No 'Marriage'
Courts can decree anything and governments can pass all of the laws they want to, but in the end neither will be able to make rational people believe that homosexual persons are 'married.' To assert such a thing will provoke thoughts of 'moral decay,' pervert,' and 'silly,' amongst other things.

When you give a mouse a cookie...
Amen Jim. NOT ONE state has VOTED to allow gay marriage. It's being forced on states by the judges.

Do you remember when the gay rights activists were lobbying for civil unions? They said that all they wanted were the same rights that married people had. That's ALL they wanted. Then they would be happy. Well, here in California they got them. All the same rights that married people have and the gays were happy for a while. NOW...

To quote the famous children's book. If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want some milk...

I know what's next. Go to the Supreme Court (as soon as Barry adds his picks) and have it mandate that all states have to recognize same sex marriage from Massachusetts, etc. Slowly, subtly and completely against the will of the majority of people, the gay activists will have won.

Ranger29
The deeper, traditional meaning of "marriage" was for the safety of the procreated. Wealth and its distribution to the married couple, had little to do with the original institution of "marital laws". Homosexual relationships, by virtue of their practice, don't procreate, so there is no need for a marriage in the traditional sense. Most agree, that "civil unions" are acceptable for homosexuals, but "marriage" means children FROM that union, and homosexuals just choose not to procreate. They prefer their unnatural lifestyle over having children of their own.
Your counter-argument, of course, will be that heterosexuals can choose not to procreate. That is true, but they CAN as a consequence of their sexual intercourse, while the unnatural sexual behavior practicing people, cannot! Children are our future, and they should not be exposed to the notion, that sex is an irresponsible act, solely for gratification. If society accepts "marriage" to be nothing more than "legalized sex" of any sort, than it will not be long before pedophilia, and bestiality can follow. It took about 40 years for homosexuality to be tolerated, then legally accepted, before the practitioners of this sexual deviation are clamoring for more. If society gives in now to "gay marriage" how long before other deviants will start the push for their first step of tolerance, to legalized acceptance?
See Ranger29, unlike homosexuals, we heterosexuals don't just live for the "here and now", but for our future, our children. And that is where the “threat” is.

What the...?
This is crap. How did this get in here?

Jim
“Mr. Chapman please refresh my memory; Which state was it that the people VOTED to approve gay marriage?”

The real question is, should the people be allowed to vote on other peoples’ civil rights? I don’t think they should and thank God for court judges who strike down discriminatory laws, as they did in Iowa.

But the most amazing part of the debate is how conservatives argue how sacred marriage is, especially to children. Yet they are turning some couples away from being married, even couples with children! Only in the conservative brain does this make sense LOL.

Stunned
"Marriage is a religious ceremony. My religion prohibits a man laying down with another man."

That's YOUR religion. Other religions in America are happy to wed gays. Are you saying that those faiths should have to live by the dictates of your religion? Is that religious freedom?

civil right
"marriage" is NOT a "civil right";it's a privelege granted by society,and one must meet certain conditions to get a marriage LICENSE.a License is a -permission- to marry.
The real reason homos want "marriage" redefined is so they can SUE to force churches to do homo "marriages",and force others to accept their perversion.Such lawsuits have already been done in some states.Churches in Mass. are being sued to force them to perform homo "marriages",the Boy Scouts have been sued to force them to accept homo Scout leaders.

When the Supreme Court
. . . decides that mandatory state approval of homosexual marriage is NOT a civil right as they probably will, will the pro gay 'marriage' crowd accept the decision and go away? After all, it would be decided by the arbiters of what is Constitutional. No, they will not. Even if gay 'marriage' is declared a matter for the states to decide for themselves, they won't quit. And neither shall we. Let's settle in for a long struggle.

Jeffrey
You have the right to marry a perfectly wonderful woman. Do it!

BrianR
You don't really think this is a tax issue.

Joycey
Already did! Mind your own business, that's the point!

No ancient pagan society
like the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, or the high civilizations of Mesopotamia or India and China denied homosexuality existed, and none had any religious/moral prohibitions against it, yet none ever devised homosexual marraige.

If the Greeks of the sacred Theban Band and Plato's symposiums never saw a reason to make homosexual relations acknowledged by the state, then I see no reason to change thousands of years of history and culture now just because the left wants it.

No, Joycey

As I thought I clearly stated, I believe this is a states' rights issue.


Jeffrey
If someone shoves their corruption in my face then it becomes my business and the business of everyone else that has in mind the health and safety of the next generation. Irresponsible. If you want to live decadently, live it, stop telling me about it. Don't ask for rights that do not belong to you in order to pollute our country and families.

Separation of Church and State
Why, exactly, is the Government deciding who can, and cannot, be married? Isn't marriage a religious rite? How is it that any religious institution is Government regulated? The Government should only be concerned with contractual obligations, i.e. civil unions, and not what religious practice should, or should not, allow. The contract should specifically spell out financial obligations, the responsibility for children, and the consequences of separation. Any other cultural or religious restrictions should be left to the civil population and its religious institutions. If your Church performs gay marriages, or does not, so be it but that is a seperate issue from what legal rights and contractual obligations are bestowed upon a "couple". And there is the thorny issue...under what legal premise does a "couple" become legally engendered to one another and what obligations does the Government have to regulate such a contract? Clearly there is no contractual rationale for disallowing same sex unions unless the express purpose of the Government is to strengthen the heterosexual "couple", the only "couple" that can create future generations and therefor perpetuate society. Therefor, in the interest of prosperity, it is germain to society that Government grant rights and obligations to heterosexual couples that would not be applied to homosexual couples and certainly not to any other multi-person, non-person, or unlawful (for example a union with a minor) union. Simply put, heterosexual couples should be held to a higher obligatory standard and therefor be granted extra ordinary privileges for the prosperity of society.

BrianR
How are you planning to get the Feds to stop usurping the power of the states? Isn't this the successful means the progressives have used in their take over of our nation? Hasn't the Supreme Court usurped the power of the states as well as the other federal branches? Was George W. really trying to set up a precedence to usurp state power or was he trying anything to stop an evil man from murdering his wife. If a state chooses to do evil, such as infringe on the right to life, should the federal govt. stand by and allow evil?

Joycey

I don't see how you're last comment applies to this topic at all.

You call same-sex marriage "evil" by implication. Frankly, though I'm not a supporter of same-sex marriage, I ALSO don't see it at that same level of characterization.

Further, your point isn't even clear. You seem to support states' rights, yet somehow leaving this issue to be decided BY the states is going to lead to the destruction of society based on a federal usurpation of those same states' rights?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


Joycey et al


I just posted an essay on my blog entitled "'Full Faith and Credit' and Same-Sex Marriage".

Just click my underlined name (above) if you'd like to read it.


Gay Marriage....
I quote Michael from CA: "Political correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical society minority, and rabidly promoted by an ignorant unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that is is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Homosexual marriage should not be given the same recognition, rights and privileges as marriage between a man and a woman. Homosexuals have tried to legitimize it by adopting children and even a gay women who became a "man" tried to get sympathy by having a baby. It is absolute craziness, and most of us can see through the scam they seek to perpetrate. Let them have their civil unions. I personally don't need any of their subterfuge because I follow what God says and I want the USA to survive.

It is not NORMAL-- it is an aberration and an abomination to God. Too bad some minsters have pandered to the them. Shame on them.. A turd IS a turd no matter how you dress it up!!!

Joycey
“If someone shoves their corruption in my face then it becomes my business and the business of everyone else that has in mind the health and safety of the next generation. Irresponsible. If you want to live decadently, live it, stop telling me about it. Don't ask for rights that do not belong to you in order to pollute our country and families.”

And I say don’t shove your polluted bigotry in my face and my kids’ faces. I don’t want my kids to see adults acting like you. I try to teach them that not everybody is like them, or believes the stuff that I’ve taught them, and that’s ok. Of course, there are absolute standards that are never ok: hating people, for example. Live your life as you see fit, and let others live theirs. Stop judging.

"Gay" Marriage
What, exactly, is so gay about homosexuals?

E. David Litvak

Jaybird
You Stated:
"No society on the face of the earth, throughout all of human history--even those who tolerated sodomy--were foolish enough to call it marriage."
Very well said, I agree. Thanks for the common sense.

But then you wrote:
"Why is this writer allowed to continue peddling his liberal drivel on this conservative website?"

Steve Chapman and other less than conservative writers (and may posters) are on this site because, unlike the left, conservatives traditionally don't try to muzzle those with opposing views. Typically it is only the left that refuses to face truthful facts.

It is at this place of the postings that our friends to the left will begin to lambast an infinate variety of traditional assumptions in a desparate comparative attempt to justify something as pathetically silly as gay marriage.


Message for the enlightened
For those of you like John (-ny) 3 that have no problem with same-sex relationships being legitimized equally with normal relationships by our government, Here is the video my Nephew was shown in Illinois public school on Good Friday. No warning, no parental approval needed and no opt-out ability.

Warning: Some Christians will be offended, this video was titled For The Bible Tells Me So on Google, this is the YouTube duplicate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKExZKfgx9s

Jeffrey, I'll bet you just love this huh.

The Lies
The saddest aspect of the video shown to my nephew in his classroom is that everything in the video is a complete lie.

Not only are many in our government schools obsessed with teaching about homosexuality to children, they are using outrageous lies to do it.

Illinois tax dollars hard at work?

Cambermeister
I watched that video and I really don’t see what the problem is. It’s a little heavy-handed, calling the straight guy, “Christian,” but other than that, what bothers you? That it doesn’t condemn homosexuality, as you’d like? It didn’t bring up religious homophobia, as in the Bible, because they’re not supposed to talk about religious beliefs in public schools. Honestly, what you change about this video?

Ranger29
You asked:

"why is gay marriage such a threat
to the right wing?"

It is not a threat to anyone who does not have or will not have young children or can afford private or home schooling.

Government schools dictate government policy.
If government labels same-sex couples the same as regular ones, children will be (and are being) introduced to homosexuality against the wishes of many parents.

By the way Ranger, what is the "right Wing"?

It's all Lies Jeffrey!
The entire video is a lie.

Schools instructing with farcicle nonsense.

Why? Why teach (and lie to)the children about homosexuality? The kids have no more reading, writing or arithmetic to learn?

And then there's divorce....
Remember back when "everyone" (meaning, as usual, the Left) was arguing in favor of liberalizing divorce laws?

That was going to get women out of abusive marriages. Turns out women stay in abusive relationships whether they're married to the violent S.O.Bs or not.

And it was going to liberate women. But it penalized stay-at-home moms who end up divorced with no support ("you can go get a job"), and who have to leave their children in daycare all day long.

It was going to get men out of unhappy relationships. But it created a new class of criminals (orders of protection, anyone?)- men who want to be with their children more than every other weekend. Or those who have given up on ever having a meaningful relationship with their children, and who "move on" to other relationships.

And it was going to free children from unhappy homes. But we now know that easy divorce has wrought havoc on children, who generally do better in two-parent families, unless one or both parents are violent or drug abusers.

People may remember that. But they have forgotten those who argued that liberalizing divorce would bring with it a host of other social pathologies, all of which would undermine marriage and the family.

"Ridiculous!" "Absurd!" "A straw man argument!" "You're just a patriarchal woman-hater."

And now? Now the same ones arguing in favor of homosexual "marriage" accuse those who oppose it of hypocrisy, saying, "How are gays marrying going to affect you? If you're so offended by that, you should really go after divorce. THAT has done much more damage than letting two people who love each other marry can ever do."

THERE'S irony for you.

Cambermeister
I think you’re asking the schools to do the parents’ job. Christian parents can tell their children that their faith tells them to hate homosexuality and homosexuals, and don’t be one. I don’t really believe parents can determine their kids’ sexuality but Christian parents can tell their kids not to practice homosexual behavior if they want to. Just like they have to tell their children not to commit adultery or get divorced once they get married, because the Bible prohibits those, too.

I think people like you just want to avoid an ugly aspect of your own religion (if you’re a Christian) by making homosexuality appear to be universally abhorred, and therefore not really unique to Christianity. You want society to do the “heavy lifting” on this issue because you don’t want to be in a position of having to explain to your kids that homosexuality is bad, not because it is, but because the Bible says so.

I think you underestimate most parents. Parents often have to correct misperceptions or redirect young minds to, or away from, certain kinds of thinking. Parents who practice homophobic religions, like Christianity, can teach their children accordingly.

Gay Mariage Hoopla
There is a concept by Saul Alinski, basically it picks a topic and makes it hot. Get everyone so divided and then you can get you way.

This is just a "screamer" to get the progressives more power by deaminizing both sides of this issue.

Rational dialog is now an impossibility. Just the way the progressives want it.

One
does not simply alter the definition of a fundamental and foundational principle of a just, sane, and morally healthy society in order to pander to the purile sexual proclivities of a politically powerful minority.

Federalism
Most of ya'll's comments missed the point of the article entirely. It's not about whether gay marriage is good or bad, but the illegitimacy of the federal government intruding in a state issue. Where are your conservative principles about a small federal government? Will you throw them out the door to appease the theocrats?

It is not proof that people are now....
"more tolerant", just that the propoganda/indoctrination campaign of the left has been successful. Academia, the Media...hence the culture, all decidely left and proponents of Moral relativism, have indoctrinated a generation into the mindset whereby there are no moral absolutes.

Religion as cultish and God as a figment of imagination. If God is tolerated by the left, it is on their terms not His. Ergo, they strive to re-intepret scritures and 2000 years of sacred traditions/writings. They have established friends/supporters in all of the right places who help with the push to further decadance.


Reply to Chuck
Your post consists entirely of pejoritive terms and is otherwise devoid of argument. To prove the point, I have paraphrased your post below with the opposite assertion:

"One does not simply deny fundamental and foundational rights to a politically oppressed minority in a just, sane and morally healthy society in order to pander to the puritanical sexual prejudices of the majority."

Federalism?
It is the governments job to establish laws that protect and ensure the survival/prosperity of the society. Our founders understood this well. Just read their writings. They knew all too well that without a morally upright citizenry(hence Jude-Christian values), the nation would implode as did previous decadent societies. So in essence, yes, laws are based on subjective morality found within God's laws, Ten Commandments, and the Bible. You can not seperate the two without ultimately descending into debasement and utter chaos.

If left to his own subjective definition of what si acceptable, man will always defer to his self-gratuitous nature. Some natures are more debased than others. So without absolutes, anything goes.

Gene
"politically oppressed minority"

Are you kidding me?!!!

Chuck...
Your post #61 is perfectly concise.
It's always been about semantics.
I believe (and the evidence would suggest)that this positively pathetic same-sex marital concept is about words and the definitions of words delivered to the next generation.

That is why the (supposedly underpaid)teachers of California spent millions advertising against the the normal definition of marriage.

What?
Gene

"politically oppressed minority"

You obviously live in a different CA than myself and PowderHound.

Jeffrey
I appreciate your lengthy (#59) response to Cambermeister (Kevlar). I take issue with all of it. You stated:

"Christian parents can tell their children that their faith tells them to hate homosexuality and homosexuals,"

Jeffrey, I'm no biblical scholar, but I'm not aware of Jesus or his followers preaching hatred of homosexuals.

"Christian parents can tell their kids not to practice homosexual behavior if they want to."

Jeffrey, it is the non Christian cultures that detest homosexuality with the greatest furver.

"by making homosexuality appear to be universally abhorred,"

Jeffrey, you need to go on a world tour, homosexuality IS universally abhorred.

"Parents who practice homophobic religions, like Christianity,"

Jeffrey, I beg of you to name a religion, any religion that endorses or accepts the practice of homosexuality except the occasional instances of American liberal protestant denominations.

The States are left out of the decision
The courts are mandating gay marriage, not the people. This is not what the framers of the constitution put in place. Seems the constitution doesn't apply to liberal causes, they simply stack a court of 5 to 9 justices with a majority and presto, law by judicial fiat.

I do grow weary of writers that seem to leave out this critical fact when they write such drivel as this piece.

Kevlar
I’m not a biblical scholar either. There are evidently several passages in the Bible that suggest that homosexuality is a sin and to be avoided. In Leviticus (admittedly, Old Testament, and somewhat less important to Christians), it actually suggests that homosexuals be put to death! It’s kind of hard to think of something more homophobic than to want homosexuals to die. Lots of Christians at Townhall cite this passage to support their homophobia. I respect their right to practice their faith although I have grave moral concerns about a religion that advocates putting people to death for expressing their immutable sexuality.

I, too, questioned that if Christ didn’t mention homosexuality in any context, how bad could it be? But Christians have assured me that it’s real bad, and Christ just didn’t get around to talking about it before his untimely death.

I don’t know the degree to which Christians hate homosexuals; I don’t know where they stand on the issue compared to other faiths. Do Christians hate homosexuals more than Muslims do? Maybe, I don’t really know. I don’t know of any religions off hand that are “homophilic,” if that’s what you’re asking. But there are over 10,000 religions in the world, and I sure am no expert on religion.

Homosexuality isn’t abhorred in much of Europe. It’s not abhorred in Japan. It’s not abhorred in South Africa. Gays can marry in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, South Africa, and now Sweden I think. That’s not very universal abhorrence, in my mind.

Jack you asked, why should we care?
...the article by Steve Chapman is in reference to same-sex marriage, a concept that is historically illegitimate, evolutionarily incomprehensible, religiously indefensible and linguistically rediculous.

Arguing for this silly same-sex marriage concoction is like wanting to call a dog a cat or a bird a bat, let's all agree, somethings wrong with that.

Gay marriage is an illusion of reality
You can no more marry off two broom sticks any more then two people of the same sex can get married. The problem isn't with straight people, it's with the Gay's. It's their own personal guilt for being gay and to relieve that guilt they must be given rights other married couples have who are of a man and a woman. People say in a 100 years who will care. When history looks back and sees what we tolerated because of the bleeding hearts sympathizers of same sex marriage we will be viewed as idiots for looking the other way, the same way we blame the Europeans for looking the other way when Hitler went crazy. Same sex marriage is nothing more then an illusion who the gays and their followers wants others to accept as reality. The reality is, there is no such thing as same sex marriage no matter how many state recognizes it.

Earth to Jack
What was Prop 8 if not to keep it in the state. The problem is that when your side loses you go straight to the courts because you know your elected officials Washington are not willing to lose an election, if they were, you would not need the courts to write law. You can't have it both ways. Granted you usually do get your way through the courts but there will come a time.

Kevlar #69
You said: "Jeffrey, I beg of you to name a religion, any religion that endorses or accepts the practice of homosexuality except the occasional instances of American liberal protestant denominations."

See: http://www.iwgonline.org/marriage/


Maverick #73
You said: "Same sex marriage is nothing more then an illusion who the gays and their followers wants others to accept as reality."

I don't really care if you accept it or not but we can and DO care about the legal recognition and the rights/benefits/responsibilities which come with it!

Marriage is not just about procreation, it is about LOVE and absolute commitment between two people who want to spend the rest of their lives together.

Jeffrey...
Jeffrey, you answered your own question:

"I don’t know the degree to which Christians hate homosexuals;... Gays can marry in the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, South Africa, and now Sweden I think."

All of the nations you've noted are better than 70% Christian. Non-Christian countries won't even participate in this nonsensical debate regarding a farcical concoction.

Obama, DOMA and the Courts
Most people agree with the US Supreme Court decision on inter-racial marriage. Marriage for same sex couples is the same issue and will eventually land in the SCOTUS.

DOMA is by definition unconstitutional as the law itself completely violates the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution! DOMA gives states the 'so called' right to ignore the Full Faith and Credit clause. DOMA's days are numbered and will fall.

Obama has made it clear that he will repeal DOMA and if he does not follow through with his prommise it is only a matter of time before SCOTUS overturns it.

Part of the Supreme Court's job is to ensure that the rights of the minority are not usurped or trampled on by the majority.

If a law violates the US Constitution, then SCOTUS has not only a right but a DUTY to overturn it. They are after all the arbiters.

It would be nice if they did not have to become involved but if they did not become involved with the inter-racial marriage issue, there would very possibly still be some states today who would not recognize it.

0215415451
Gay marriage is not about federalism but rather a constitutional right of an individual. Equal protection... liberty for all.

Thanks, Cambermeister!
The video was a delight. Totally, 100%, completely irrelevant, but a delight none the less.

Whether or not gay is a choic has zero impact on the "equal protection" argument in favor or gay marriage.

Your nephew's sexuality was not changed one bit by watching the video.

Tyler, in WA

Let's set Tyler straight about the so-called gay marriage problem.

This morning about 6 AM-- he posted:

"What is the big deal
Let them marry. They aren't gonna bum rape you. It's just a special word to them. They want the word. Let them have the word."

The word they demand would make homosexual buggery the equivalent of a straight marriage. No longer would there be a distinction. In itself, this lack or clarity wouldn't ruin real marriage. But it would exalt and make "pure" what is indecent and sick. (Is that arguable, Tyler? WHY?)

"It doesn't affect you. Get a life!"

Pretense of marriage won't affect reality. Gays will be acting parts just as actors do in films. Harrison Ford acts as if he were Indiana Jones. But--he's not.

Gays can't be spouses simply because of ONE detail:

Two males aren't physically equipt by nature for marriage to one another. Lacking a vagina, they're only pretending to be spouses.

Rosie O'Donnell won't make a spouse for any woman with only a turkey-baster or a dillDO to effect a marital act. They pretend they're married, Tyler. The "word" is irrelevant.

All told, to PRETEND is a sham that ___trivializes___ marriage between a man and a woman. Yet, our majority of citizens have NOT tried to bar these idiots from having civil unions. Nor from doing any vile thing they want to in private.



How can you take a word
that is rooted in religious tradition and say it means something other than what that tradition says it means?

If gays want to have their own union, there is nothing preventing them from forming a union and giving it a unique name that describes what it is. Why do gays want to take a word with a traditional, conservative meaning and say it applies equally to homosexuals when that has NEVER been the case?

Will homosexual men next want to urinate on each other and call it baptism? Will they demand the right to redefine what baptism means?

When people take words that have been defined one way for thousands of years and redefine those words to suit their own desires, their ability to wreck traditional civility will see no limit.

It is time to say to hell with political correctness. We need common sense.

How can you take a word
that is rooted in religious tradition and say it means something other than what that tradition says it means?

If gays want to have their own union, there is nothing preventing them from forming a union and giving it a unique name that describes what it is. Why do gays want to take a word with a traditional, conservative meaning and say it applies equally to homosexuals when that has NEVER been the case?

Will homosexual men next want to urinate on each other and call it baptism? Will they demand the right to redefine what baptism means? When people take words that have been defined one way for thousands of years and redefine those words to suit their own desires, their ability to wreck traditional civility will see no limit.

It is time to say to hell with political correctness. We need common sense.

Kevlar
"All of the nations you've noted are better than 70% Christian. Non-Christian countries won't even participate in this nonsensical debate regarding a farcical concoction."

Uh. No, they're not. Sweden in particular has more atheists and agnostics than Christians. The Netherlands does as well I believe according to latest census data.

Ms Kelly
" How can you take a word that is rooted in religious tradition and say it means something other than what that tradition says it means?"

Because federal and state law look at the word as indicative of a civil contract, nothing more. Which is precisely how they should be looking at it. Which also leads, inevitably, to any court it comes before having to decide in favor of equal protection rather than "tradition."


John (-ny) 3:16
John, the relevance of the video to some of us is more clear.
Why lie about or even talk about an unusual behavior (practiced by 2% of Americans)to pre-pubescent asexual children?
Why?
OK, you don't know or won't say.
But what we do know is that the gay community is hoping for governmental legitimization, consequently allowing government schools to instruct small children about this practice that is offensive to most of these kids parents. Parents that cannot afford private school.

Kevlar, back in the day
Just as many parents were offended over the idea of their children being taught that inter-racial couples could marry and are legally just as recognized as every other couple.

You cannot relegate gays to second class status just because you don't want your children to be taught that same sex couples can marry under the law as a 'civil marriage'. You cannot relegate gays to second class status just because you want your children to be taught that we are deviant.

In the end many on your side want gays to have no legal recognition because then there is an excuse for the school system to teach children that we are not worthy members of society.

Sexual Deviants are NOT a Minority!
Anyone who tries to argue that homos are members of a protected minority group is a complete and utter fool who is lacking a sense of reality!

It appears that a simple lesson in reality is in order. Ready? Blacks, Asians, Hispanics and Polynesians are examples of minorities. Homosexuals, pedophiles, beastaphiliacs, and other assorted perverts are not.

LoveIsEqual
I personally have never referred to homosexuals as deviant.

I don't understand the inter-racial marriage analogy (or comparison)and considering the overwhelming opposition to gay marriage within the black community, black Americans apparently don't either.

Myself and many conservatives don't feel as though gays are "second class", gays have the same "legal recognition" as straights and I for one would never tell a child that homosexuals "are not worthy members of society."

The Gay Lobby is Winning?
So far, the only way they have been able to 'win' anything is through the courts and in one state legislature. When the people speak, they always lose.
Your obvious goal is to overrule the right of each state to determine their definition of marriage by means of the courts, and to spit on the will of the people.
Going contrary to the will of the people as expressed in referendums and in legislation pretty much defines fascism, doesn't it? It's rule by 'experts'.

POLYGAMISTS UNITE
If marriage is for gays, then it's for polygamists also. They have historical precedence and therefore much more right to the institution. Let gays be happy with civil union. It will protect their rights as a couple, unless they have an ax to grind, which it seems they do.

LovesEqual
In response to your post #78 Obama, DOMA...

Don't count on our new President. He has learned from and is a much more clever politician than preceding left leaning leaders. Democrats (and similar)learned long ago to use homosexuals as their shock troops in their rise to power. A homosexual is the ultimate one issue voter and will aggressively spend time and treasure to elect whomever they anticipate will legitimize their unusual behavior.
By making promises to the gays, Bill Clinton got a small army to spend their lengthy government vacations as devoted door knockers throughout the primary process. Adolph Hitlers homosexual brown shirts bullied or killed those that opposed the National Socialists and their agenda.
With "don't ask don't tell" and DOMA Clinton figuratively stabbed the homosexuals in the back. And during the "Night of the Long Knives, Hitlers' henchmen did so literally .
Candidate Obama acquired the devotion of the gay community with nothing more than a wink and a nod. Expect nothing from him.

Why don't gays vote Republican. The GOP promises to ignore homosexuals and keeps their promise. A Democrat will never respect a homosexual in the morning.

Gay Marriage?
The gays have an increasingly ridiculous militant agenda...just one more sign of society degeneration. A big part of me says homosexuals are deviants and disgusting and are nature's mistake with no purpose in larger society that requires healthy reproduction and child rearing practices to flourish. The other, smaller part of me is willing to concede a "live and let live" scenario. But I adamantly draw the line to extending them the same rights as normal families or any special non-discrimatory privileges. They can fume or whatever but it is their problem not mine. They also better learn some manners in dealing with their problem as the normal segment of society is getting mighty tired of their unreasonable antics. And no it's not phobia but disgust!

It's not the label "gay" or "black" or whatever that should be the problem but the unacceptable behavior behind the label. If the “label” conforms to society’s mores they will not be singled out for scrutiny and/or discrimination. All people since the beginning of time discriminate: Think saber-tooth tiger versus antelope; one will eat you, the other will feed you. Society has the right and duty to discriminate against dangerous, threatening, and various inappropriate behaviors not suitable to the smooth functioning of its interactions. This is where gays must not be treated the same as natural man/woman unions with children called “families” who are the bedrock of society. Gay’s lifestyle, hence associated behaviors, do not resemble natural unions no matter how they try to camouflage their repulsive acts. If allowed to raise kids they will impose their views, directly or not, of deviant lifestyle as normal. These kids will be confused of their own identity at best, lose their sense of direction/purpose in life, and, at worse, be subject to depression and suicide. Other negatives abound. This is not something society should sanction!

karen of LA
Your common sense is so logical that the abstract minded to cannot comprehend it.

O of AZ
You stated that children raised by homosexuals "will be confused of their own identity".
You're right, kids raised in a homosexual household are more over 5 times more likely to become homosexual.
Please gay people, don't argue with me. The studies verifying this were all done by homosexuals, and you know it.

Kevlar #90
You said: "I personally have never referred to homosexuals as deviant."

So you didn't and I never said you did. But MANY on your side of the fence have. Case in point, look at #94 which said: " If allowed to raise kids they will impose their views, directly or not, of deviant lifestyle as normal."

As far as Obama goes, whether he does or does not keep his word DOMA will ultimately fail as it must because it IS an outright violation of the Full Faith and Credit clause. And I would not rule Obama out if I were you.

a from tx
"a from TX", you stated:

"This is about the interpretation of law, not religious dogma validated by a few biblical passages"

I believe that at it's core, this is about proposed legitimization of behavior that is evolutionarily incomprehensible and that most of society considers abnormal at best, despicable at worst.

Karen #92
You said: "Let gays be happy with civil union. It will protect their rights as a couple, unless they have an ax to grind, which it seems they do. "

Have you ever heard the saying that separate but equal is not equal? I'm sure you have. But beyond that Civil Unions are nothing but a bandaid to the real issue and further propagates the feeling of second class. Civil Unions in place of marriage also adds further fuel and validity to the Federal Govt. in refusing to recognize the civil contract of marriage and the more than 1100 rights, responsibilties, etc of marriage.

That is not an axe to grind, that is pure and simple truth. You call it having an axe to grind, we call it fighting for equal rights!

It's about reality
" This is about the interpretation of law, not religious dogma validated by a few biblical passages. " While there is no doubt that the Scriptures consider homosexual marriage wrong, so has every secular society. When Nero 'married' his boyfriend, it was a major factor in the change of the people's support of him, for example. No major civilization has ever legalized homosexual marriage.

States do not grant the same privileges
to everyone.

The civil rights argument is bogus. Everyone cannot get a license to open a restaurant, sell liquor, sell tobacco (those forms are enormous), or fill in wetlands, even if the parcel is private property.

I don't see the great non-Christian nations like India and China jumping on the homosexual marriage band wagon, and they surely have homosexuals in their populations. And certainly, there is no movement among Muslims, who don't recognize that homosexuality exists, to create homosexual marriage.

The big push only seems to be in the West, so that *gays* can spew hatred at Christians, who are the very source of Western individuality and civil society.

It was Christians who were the Abolitionists of the days of slavery, and it has been Christians and their churches that marched with Martin Luther King, Jr., and the civil rights movement. But homosexuals are not identified by their skin color or race, which are congenital and unchangeable, but their sexual habits, and no laws should be adjusted or re-ordered because of indeterminate bahaviors.

Nero never married his boyfriend
Nero did beat his pregnant wife to death, so he's not exactly a shining example of domestic behavior. Actually, he kicked her to death.

And to become emporer, Nero helped kill his uncle, the previous Caesar, and then killed his mother, because he felt she had too much power.

You need a better example if you want to justify homosexual marriage among the Romans.

Semantics LoveIsEqual

The right to do something
you can't do anyway.

Myself a pro ball player,
I should not ever say.

Can a flock be a herd?
Or a bird is a bat?

Most would agree,
Something's wrong with that.

When things are different,
we give them different words,

Not "whey and whey" Miss Muffet,
there's a reason to say curds.

And claiming to be Gay,
when in fact you are straight,

The nonsense of this,
I doubt you'll debate.

But in the land of make-believe,
California is the name,

We thought we'd pretend,
that everything's the same.

Our language was changed.
To where it'd be carried?

Those two guys shacked up,
We no longer call married.

Even on the Left coast the homosexual community has overstepped what the public will tolerate.

Using the courts and legislatures to force the citizenry to celebrate a life style most find objectionable was the last straw.

Homosexual community, brainstorm. You're creative people and have created new phrases and words for enumerous actions that are unique to yourselves.
Get another word for same-sex "marriage".
The word marriage is already taken. Two of my favorites are Narcisdonium and Symanella.

PRISON MARRIAGE
Once gays have their "rights" established, then any prisoners who have succumbed to homosexual behavior to "make do" while in prison, can demand to be married while inside! Think of all the possibilities! Those precious orange jumpsuits in a wedding ceremony while behind bars. Best men in orange jumpsuits. And because of jailhouse lawyers, they'll be forcing the issue and staging reality shows before you can say, "Beam me up, Scotty!" The U.S. will be even more of a laughing stock around the world than it is right now since this disastrous election.

Kevlar #97
You said: "You're right, kids raised in a homosexual household are more over 5 times more likely to become homosexual.
Please gay people, don't argue with me. The studies verifying this were all done by homosexuals, and you know it. "

Really, let me guess organizations like Focus on the Family, Paul Cameron, etc, etc.

There is NO endorsement of such an idiotic notion. If your statement were so true we would NOT be discussing this right now!! Because to use your logic, virtually no gays would exist in the first place.

People are born with an inherent sexual orientation, it is not created or imposed on someone. You should listen to more coming out stories so you can gain another perspective.

In terms of sexual orientation we believe in raising the children properly and to be who they are meant to be. We have no preference if they are gay or straight - it does NOT matter. What DOES matter is that they are true to who they are meant to be.

In OTHER words we would not try to push them to be gay like many on your side try to push or force their children to be straight!!

Oh and kevlar a couple of links
http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/parents.html

Renny #102
You said: "The big push only seems to be in the West, so that *gays* can spew hatred at Christians, who are the very source of Western individuality and civil society."

How is it spewing hatred to demand equal rights. The second we fight against unequal treatment folks like you call it hatred toward Christians. That is really sad.

And I have news for you, a growing number of Christians do support equal marriage rights for same sex couples.

BTW, many gays and lesbians are Christian too and most of us have Christian friends. Hatred, not hardly! But whether you be Christian, Protestant, agnostic, atheist or what have you; if you try to deny us our equal rights you will be resisted!

Renny and a
Somehow, Holland doesn't spring to mind when the phrase "major civilization" is mentioned. I should have qualified the statement I made by saying for five thousand years until the last ten years.
And yes, Nero married his boyfriend. It is in Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."
Will you trust the courts to make the right decision when they disagree with you? I doubt it very much.
I'm also curious about what happens if gay marriage is legalized? What happens to people who don't believe and will never believe that gay marriage is valid? What rights will they have over their own property, their children's education, and their public speech?

Renny, continued
You also said: "But homosexuals are not identified by their skin color or race, which are congenital and unchangeable, but their sexual habits, and no laws should be adjusted or re-ordered because of indeterminate bahaviors. "

For most gays and lesbians we can no longer change our sexual orientation than you or any other straight person! Could you see yourself waking up one day and saying "I'm going to be gay from now on"?!?

The notion that we would 'choose' to be gay and be subject to the persecution and discrimination that many of us live with every day is idiotic at its essence!


Robert #111
You said: "I'm also curious about what happens if gay marriage is legalized? What happens to people who don't believe and will never believe that gay marriage is valid? What rights will they have over their own property, their children's education, and their public speech?"

To the first question, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. If they don't want to view us as married then so be it, that is their right. We care about the rights and responsibilities under the LAW. To your other questions. What exactly does property have to do with anything - please clarify.

About children's education. If you mean will parents have a right to tell the public school that they must never mention the word gay or homosexual or that they must continue teaching that being homosexual is deviant, immoral or whatever then the answer is NO they won't have that right, as well they should not. They would not have the right to tell the school to not include curriculum on other races either, same thing.

In terms of public speech. Last time I checked people still have freedom of speech rights and always will.

So- What Are You Going To Do About It?
If you do get the courts to legalize gay marriage against the will of the majority of Americans, you will then have won what? You will have increased the opposition to gay marriage-- nobody likes being coerced-- and convinced no-one.

LoveisEqual...
You are very generationally arrogant.

The arrogance one must possess to sincerely believe that your enlightened position on same-sex marriage is morally and intellectually superior to that of your great grandparents, and their great grandparents, and their great grandparents before them.

You are so hyper-smart in fact that your intellect and moral compass exceeds that of every generation from every civilization in recorded history. Never before, in any language has man-kind contemplated calling two homosexuals married.

Was it the cell phone or the microwave oven that verified your social values superiority. Yeh, the 5.5 billion people on this planet that find gay marriage to be your not so funny joke LoveIsEqual, could benefit from your extreme sense of justice.

LoveIs Equal...
You Stated:

"subject to the persecution and discrimination that many of us live with every day"

Please don't try to kid a Californian. This isn't 1972. That "wo is me" sympathy argument will only work on the rural midwesterners. You know that we know the truth.

Sorry to Pile on but...
LoveIsEqual, you stated:

"continue teaching that being homosexual is deviant, immoral or whatever"
On which side of Mars do you live?

And shame on you for perpetually comparing the real struggle of the civil rights movement to the same-sex marriage craze.

It's all about you, the adult homosexual isn't it?

Don't give a damn about young children, do you?

A 10 year old boy will not lay awake at night wondering if his skin will change colour upon puberty. The racial comparison is nonsensical.
There is no logical reason to introduce young children to any unusual sexual practice of any tiny minority, period.

Excuse me kevlar
You said: "The arrogance one must possess to sincerely believe that your enlightened position on same-sex marriage is morally and intellectually superior to that of your great grandparents, and their great grandparents, and their great grandparents before them."

No, no arrogance. If you want to live in the past so be it. It is the arrogance of many on your side that because of the past or because of their religious beliefs that we should never have any legal rights. EVERYONE (did you get the word 'everyone'?) is entitled to their views and I respect that but not you or anyone else has the moral authority to deny those rights to anyone else.

You call it arrogant for us to want the same rights you take for granted. And what because our grandparents did not agree with us? You are arrogant to think that we should forever live in the past.

You also said: "Please don't try to kid a Californian. This isn't 1972. That "wo is me" sympathy argument will only work on the rural midwesterners. You know that we know the truth."

No, no sympathy arugment, just plain facts. Where exactly do you live in CA? I live in SF, no problems here as in most progressive parts of the state. You probably forget the central valley where homophobia still abounds in some areas. You probably also think CA is the whole world. This country is big and homophobia continues to abound in more places than not.

Continue to live in your own world if you wish.

Kevlar #117
You are really funny! You stated: "It's all about you, the adult homosexual isn't it?

Don't give a damn about young children, do you?"

No it is not all about us. If you choose to think so that is your choice. To you if we fight for our rights you accuse us of being 'all about ourselves'. Like anyone else we do have the right to fight for our civil rights. And yes this is about civil rights.

Regarding children. Oh yes we do care about children including the many LGBT children who are harassed, ridiculed and even attacked because of who they are.

Talk about hypocrisy. You and others accuse us of not caring about children yet you would choose for public schools to never broach the subject of homosexuality and to hell with the gay children who have to live with the consequences!

Robert #114
Yes I know Robert. I'm sure you believe that we should just 'settle' for second class and wait around until the majority decide to graciously grant us equal rights.

Sure, got it.

Kevlar
“Don't give a damn about young children, do you? A 10 year old boy will not lay awake at night wondering if his skin will change colour upon puberty. The racial comparison is nonsensical.
There is no logical reason to introduce young children to any unusual sexual practice of any tiny minority, period.”

Do you have a point? If so, what is it? Who is “introducing” young children to anything sexual? That’s just weird. Children should be introduced to themes about love, family and marriage at age-appropriate times. Sex, too, if that’s in the school curriculum. What’s the problem? No one disagrees that it should always be age-appropriate.

Kevlar
Missed this the first time. You stated: "There is no logical reason to introduce young children to any unusual sexual practice of any tiny minority, period. "

What are you talking about?!? Teaching respect and acceptance of others, including homosexuals is not teaching about 'sexual practices'.

What, you think public schools show porn or something?

How exactly do you come up with something this non-sensical?

Thank You LoveIsEqual
You stated that you believe the parents of government school children should not have the right, ("NO they won't have that right") to ask the schools to leave sexuality of any sort out of the classroom.

Really, who do you think you are?

Thank you for clarifying how the liberal mind works.
Certain, are you, that you and the incompetants of Sacramento know better than parents what is best for their own children.
And thank you for clarifying for the other 49 states how and why Prop 8 became the Law.
Regular folks figured out what people like you and the teachers union were up to all along.

“we’re going to lose.”
In California a key leader of the No on 8 (pro same-sex marriage)campaign has said publicly for the first time that if the homosexual community pursues a new ballot initiative in 2010, “we’re going to lose.”
Kate Kendall, Executive Director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights and a member of the No on 8 executive committee told a prominent Bay Area gay newspaper that public polls, including the recently published Field Poll, overstate support for gay marriage. “People lie,” she said. “We're at 42 percent or 43 percent. We could claw our way to 48 percent but we never get past 48 percent."

Been fun...
Gotta Go, Later!

Kevlar, and his misquotes!
You said: "You stated that you believe the parents of government school children should not have the right, ("NO they won't have that right") to ask the schools to leave sexuality of any sort out of the classroom."

NOW that is a complete misquote on your part Kevlar! In point of fact what I actually stated was this: "About children's education. If you mean will parents have a right to tell the public school that they must never mention the word gay or homosexual or that they must continue teaching that being homosexual is deviant, immoral or whatever then the answer is NO they won't have that right, as well they should not. "

Parents absoutely have the right to opt OUT of sex education - that is their right and I defend it! So do NOT misquote me! I said that parents would not have the right to tell the school that they have to teach that homosexuality is immoral and that they cannot tell the school to never mention the word homosexual. Not any more than they can tell a school not to teach about other races. That is NOT sex education Kevlar! So kindly quit trying to twist what I said!

All over the country gay and lesbian children are having to live with homophobia, harassment, ridicule even being attacked because of who they are! Schools have the responsibility to teach differently and to do whatever it takes to ensure a safe learning environment for ALL! And on those things the parents cannot tell the school they cannot do so!!


My Personal Liberty Is Imperiled
. . . already. A Christian photographer in New Mexico was successfully sued for refusing to do a gay commitment service photo coverage. A theatre director in California had to resign because of his opposition to gay marriage. Pastors have been fined or sentenced to imprisonment in Canada and Europe under hate speech laws. And a church camp in New Jersey had its tax exemption removed because it refused to allow its facilities to be used for a gay commitment service. If we have gay marriage, this situation will get worse, not better.

The Attack of the Gays is Imploding
The fiendish smile of Hilton as he asked his obnoxious question gave away the scam. Out of 12 judges he just happens to ask Miss California a question about a hotly contested constitutional debate? Come on, Trump, nobody's buying it so you shouldn't be sellin' it. This was a setup. She nailed you on it and now the libs are pooh-poohing it because, like Jack says, "You can't handle the truth!"

The majority of Americans are perfectly content with marriage as stipulated for the last, oh, 300 years. No multiples, no dogs, cats or donkeys and no man to man, woman to woman. That doesn't stop anyone from drawing up a contract, going to a gay church, inviting all their friends, saying some vows and, poof, your hitched. Its not a marriage by law but will hold up as a union in any court based on the property rights and personal rights in the document.

But then you wouldn't be rubbin' conservatives noses in it. And that wouldn't be any fun would it? That wouldn't get any yucks from your all your future partners at the NAMBLA hookups would it?


indyconantidim #129
You stated: "That doesn't stop anyone from drawing up a contract, going to a gay church, inviting all their friends, saying some vows and, poof, your hitched. Its not a marriage by law but will hold up as a union in any court based on the property rights and personal rights in the document."

Exactly what world do you live on? In most places we get no legal recognition whatsoever and even where we do, it does NOTHING about the greater than 1100 Federal rights and benefits.

We can even have a power of attorney and whatever other legal documents and other states refuses to recognize them many times!

We have the right to the same legal recognition that you or anyone else has.

Robert #128
I've got a simple question for you. If a Christian is an employee at City Hall in a state where marriage for same sex couples is the LAW, does this Christian employee have a right to refuse to issue a marriage license based on religious objections?

If you answer YES to this then it just goes to show that you don't understand the right of religious freedom like you think you do!

That same Christian in the capacity of a church official absolutely has a RIGHT to refuse to perform the marriage ceremony.

Religion is not and never has been a way of circumventing the LAW.


Love
"If you answer YES to this then it just goes to show that you don't understand the right of religious freedom like you think you do! " The answer is no. You cannot compel someone to disobey his conscience to obey the law. For example, Christians often refused to return runaway slaves. Under the Nazis, Christians often protected Jews.
"Religion is not and never has been a way of circumventing the LAW. " You obviously do not understand the function of a conscience.

Correction, Love
The answer is Yes.

Helping the "enemy"
Maybe you anti-gay people don’t see what you’re doing but I’ll give you a clue: the more you vocalize your disdain for gay people, especially using religious beliefs, it solidifies the arguments gays make for why they need the protections of marriage. Not that it bothers me, but you guys are your own worst enemies LOL.

Robert CA
Other religions in America are happy to wed gays. Robert

---------------------------

Just wondering - what religions are you claiming wed gays?

Jeffery's story time
... you guys are your own worst enemies ... Jeffery

And _THAT_ is why Prop 8 failed children.

Robert, surely you jest.
Based on your statement I think I can safely paraphrase you as saying that you think anyone can get out of following any law just by stating religious objection.

The law is there for a reason and you can't simply state "it violates my religion" and be able to just ignore the law. I can only imagine the state of affairs if that were true!! Talk about complete anarchy and lawlessness!!

I can't believe you actually subscribe to that kind of thinking. You simply cannot be that ignorant.

I guess you would subsribe to the notion that a same sex couple filing a joint tax return as a married couple by LAW could be rejected by an employee at the state taxing authority. Well honoring this joint tax return violates my religion, therefore I'm going to reject it!!

Do you have any idea how this sounds?

Robert a follow on
Just a natural follow on to my question then your answer.

In the end I think this is largely why many on your side fight against gay rights so hard. Because you want to be free to deny gays any recognition even when it is purely a civil issue. In other words you dont just want freedom of religion, you want to be free to use your religious beliefs in the CIVIL realm to deny any legal rights for gays.

I would be the first to fight for the right of churches to exercise their religious beliefs but many on your side want religious beliefs to control all of society.

Jo
I think Prop 8 succeeded. It passed. With the help of dishonest ads financed by "Christians."

I'm Serious-- and Don't Call Me Surely
"Based on your statement I think I can safely paraphrase you as saying that you think anyone can get out of following any law just by stating religious objection." I didn't say that at all. I said that a Christian is bound to refuse to commit acts that is against his conscience. When you create laws that would compel half the country to break either the law or their conscience, you create evil.
And don't think churches won't be compelled to either do gay marriages or lose their tax exemption. But of course, you probably approve of that.
Just curious. Why do you think that serious Christians who believe gay marriage is wrong would violate their conscience instead of the law? Don't you understand what conscience can demand?

Marriage Is Not A Civil Right
"you want to be free to use your religious beliefs in the CIVIL realm to deny any legal rights for gays." No, I want full civil rights for gays, including the right to marry a person of the opposite sex. I don't think redefining a state that is older than civilization in a way I see as destructive the the basis of society to be a civil right-- or even an acceptable idea. I remind you that no secular society (until less than ten years ago) has ever recognized gay marriage.

Robert, you miss the point.
Religion simply cannot be used as a reason to violate the law and I think you know that. There would be NO law if it were that easy!

If a person can't handle following the law working in an official capacity, then I'm sorry they are in the wrong line of work.

And NO I absolutely and adamantly do NOT believe that churches should be required or compelled to marry a same sex couple! There are already protections against that. Now I'm not saying that some won't try and push the issue but I would be the first to fight them if they did! I absolutely and whole-heartedly agree with religious freedom of churches to practice and ahdere to their beliefs and I will DEFEND that right.

Honestly a case in which someone is trying to compel a church to perform a marriage in violation of their beliefs should not even be granted a court date!

But it crosses the line when it enters the civil realm of law.

A gay person can no more..
marry someone of the opposite sex than you could marry someone of the same sex! Oh sure they can go through the motions of a marriage ceremony but it is FAR from a TRUE marriage.

There are a lot of gay people in just that predicament and it is not fair to them, their wife or their children (if any)because they are not truly married in the ways that really matter - from the heart and soul!

Loveisequal
"Honestly a case in which someone is trying to compel a church to perform a marriage in violation of their beliefs should not even be granted a court date!" I am gratified to hear it, and will call on your assistance when it actually does become a court case, which it surely will if the gay marriage advocates win. How it will be done is by calling a church a place of public accommodation because it allows its space to be used by AA, NA, birthday parties, voting, and so on. It will be an attack on charitable tax exemption. Remember, you heard it from the Amazing Robert first. I would very much like to be wrong, but I doubt it. I know the beast too well.

The Impossibility of Same-sex Marriage

Same sex "marriage" is biologically impossible.

A marriage between a man and a woman is not valid until consummated; consummated by sexual intercourse between the man and woman.

Sexual intercourse is only possible between a man and a woman.

No matter how they want to rationalize it, the sexual actions between two people of the same sex are mutual masturbation; they are not sexual intercourse.

Same sex "marriage" is biologically impossible.

It is amazing to me that grown men and women in government can close their eyes to these obvious biological facts. Don't they ever look into a mirror after a shower?

These people need love, and prayer. Just as I do.
Validating sinful (yes, I used that word, sin) activity is not loving; it encourages a continuation of that activity.


Unnatural
I will tell you what "gay marriage" will do to my marriage. My marriage is about a man and a woman who love each other and engage in a beautiful act of love. I do not want it to be equated with 2 men engaging in anal sex.

Robert you won't have to call...
on me to live up to my word. I have been very vocal in my convictions amongst my own LGBT community on this topic. The leaders of the LGBT organizations are very much on board with protecting the religious freedom of churches to follow their beliefs.

And honestly Robert, we are not beasts. Don't worry I know you did not intend that literally or I hope not. Whether you believe us or not or believe in our struggle is your choice. But I just want to close by saying that what we want out of life is really no different than what you want. Most of us as we grow older and mature want nothing more than to find the lifetime partner we can fall in Love with and spend the rest of our lives together in a dedicated, committed and monagamous relationship. Are their exceptions to that? Absolutely, no different than the straight community.

My husband and I were married on Feb 14th, 2005 in Canada and have been together since Dec 28th, 2001 and are looking forward to celebrating our 10th anniversary, then our 20th and so on. It is not about sex or any of that other nonsense but pure and simple and absolutely unwavering Love for each other!

I'm not trying to change your mind by the way but just to share with you that we really do have the same goals and desires in life.

Ellen #147
No one is trying to equate their marriage to yours. We want the same right to marriage as you or anyone else. That does nothing to degrade the sanctity or meaning of 'your' marriage.

There is a reason the courts are starting to make these landmark decisions and it is because those who try to claim that my marriage to my husband somehow harms 'them' is totally absurd and unsupportable on its face.

bigfootbot #147
Yes we do consummate our marriage but we really do not need to get into that now do we?

Marriage is about Love and dedication and the overwhelming desire to spend the rest of their lives together. Period.

Government does not belong in the bedroom but they do have a job to ensure that all are treated equally.

loveisequal
"And honestly Robert, we are not beasts." I didn't mean to imply that you were and sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to certain activists, some often represented on these boards, who seem more interested in kicking around conservative and moderate Christians than they are in their own situation.
I can't approve of homosexual behavior, but I can wish you the best of luck in your relationship.

Thanks Robert
I will accept that as offered. Though we don't see eye to eye on things I do respect your beliefs and your gesture.

Thank you.

Goodnight, All
May all the rational, pleasant people on this thread have a pleasant evening and a good night's sleep.
As for the rest of you trolls, Pffffft!

LoveisEqual, but deceitful
LoveisEqual states: "Marriage for same sex couples is the same issue as interacial marriage". False. At no point did legalizing inter-racial marriage attempt to re-define marriage. Marriage was still the union of one man to one woman, regardless of race.

And yes, children raised in homosexual households ARE more likely to become gay. A study by a homosexual "gay gene" scientist, Dr. Dean Hamer, researched women and found that sisters of lesbians had about a 6% chance of being a lesbian, but that daughters of lesbians had a 33% chance of being a lesbian. This "whopping" jump in the percentage of lesbians among daughters of lesbian mothers, said Hamer, "could only mean one thing: being a lesbian... was culturally transmitted, not inherited." Source:The Washington Blade (gay periodical), January 30, 1998.

LoveIsEqual states: People are born with an inherent sexual orientation, it is not created or imposed on someone. You should listen to more coming out stories so you can gain another perspective." False..kind of.

Who said: “Homosexuality is not 'normal.' On the contrary it is a challenge to the norm. Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the
single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction. No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous. Homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait.”

Answer:- Well-known lesbian author, activist and University Professor Camille Paglia.


LoveisEqual, but deceitful (cont'd)
LoveIsEqual states: "For most gays and lesbians we can no longer change our sexual orientation than you or any other straight person" False. Read the studies by Dr. Robert Spitzer, one of the men who, in 1973, helped change the APA's opinion on homosexuality as a mental disorder. He acknowledged that homosexuals can become heterosexual."The critics of this kind of therapy don't just argue that it is rarely effective, they argue that it's never effective."

Spitzer continues to interview former homosexuals who have left the homosexual lifestyle and have lost their attractions for the same sex. Spitzer says: "What we're really trying to see is, 'Are there individuals who
give a pretty convincing report that they have changed, in a fundamental way, their
sexual orientation, and has it been sustained for many years?... I'm personally con-
vinced that many of these individuals have maintained and made major changes in
their sexual orientation.'"

LoveisEqual states: The notion that we would 'choose' to be gay... is idiotic. " Patently false. Go to the website queerbychoice.com and read all about it. Maybe some don't make a CONSCIOUS choice to be gay, but some certainly do.

LoveisEqual states: People are born with an inherent sexual orientation, it is not created or imposed on someone. You should listen to more coming out stories so you can gain another perspective." Will LoveIsEqual listen to the coming out stories of polyamorists, zoophiles, necrophiles and adult incestuous siblings and help establish for them the same rights as homosexuals, or is he merely interested in supporting specific orientation, not sexual orientation?

LoveisEqual, but deceitful (cont'd)
LoveIsEqual states: "For most gays and lesbians we can no longer change our sexual orientation than you or any other straight person" False. Read the studies by Dr. Robert Spitzer, one of the men who, in 1973, helped change the APA's opinion on homosexuality as a mental disorder. He acknowledged that homosexuals can become heterosexual."The critics of this kind of therapy don't just argue that it is rarely effective, they argue that it's never effective."

Spitzer continues to interview former homosexuals who have left the homosexual lifestyle and have lost their attractions for the same sex. Spitzer says: "What we're really trying to see is, 'Are there individuals who
give a pretty convincing report that they have changed, in a fundamental way, their
sexual orientation, and has it been sustained for many years?... I'm personally con-
vinced that many of these individuals have maintained and made major changes in
their sexual orientation.'"

LoveisEqual states: The notion that we would 'choose' to be gay... is idiotic. " Patently false. Go to the website queerbychoice.com and read all about it. Maybe some don't make a CONSCIOUS choice to be gay, but some certainly do.

LoveisEqual states: People are born with an inherent sexual orientation, it is not created or imposed on someone. You should listen to more coming out stories so you can gain another perspective." Will LoveIsEqual listen to the coming out stories of polyamorists, zoophiles, necrophiles and adult incestuous siblings and help establish for them the same rights as homosexuals, or is he merely interested in supporting specific orientation, not sexual orientation?

LoveisEqual, but deceitful (cont'd)
LoveIsEqual states: "For most gays and lesbians we can no longer change our sexual orientation than you or any other straight person" False. Read the studies by Dr. Robert Spitzer, one of the men who, in 1973, helped change the APA's opinion on homosexuality as a mental disorder. He acknowledged that homosexuals can become heterosexual."The critics of this kind of therapy don't just argue that it is rarely effective, they argue that it's never effective."

Spitzer continues to interview former homosexuals who have left the homosexual lifestyle and have lost their attractions for the same sex. Spitzer says: "What we're really trying to see is, 'Are there individuals who
give a pretty convincing report that they have changed, in a fundamental way, their
sexual orientation, and has it been sustained for many years?... I'm personally con-
vinced that many of these individuals have maintained and made major changes in
their sexual orientation.'"

LoveisEqual states: The notion that we would 'choose' to be gay... is idiotic. " Patently false. Go to the website queerbychoice.com and read all about it. Maybe some don't make a CONSCIOUS choice to be gay, but some certainly do.

LoveisEqual states: People are born with an inherent sexual orientation, it is not created or imposed on someone. You should listen to more coming out stories so you can gain another perspective." Will LoveIsEqual listen to the coming out stories of polyamorists, zoophiles, necrophiles and adult incestuous siblings and help establish for them the same rights as homosexuals, or is he merely interested in supporting specific orientation, not sexual orientation?

dreadnaught
You say that the majority of people have not tried to block civil unions. What do you call a man and a woman who marry at city hall? It's a civil union! Same fricken thing! Marriage is a word. It was attached to religion, now it is not so much. Big deal. Men and women have anal sex all the time. Big deal! Don't be so insecure.

Since gay marriage can not exist,
how can I either support or oppose it?

The anti-religion people want the govt stay separate from religion to the extreme, except when it comes to the religious institution of marriage. Then they want the govt to dictate as do most religious conservatives.

We need complete separation of marriage and state.

I do not care who marries who as long as I am not forced to call it normal or even real.

Straw man argument
To date no scientist has proven that gays are "born that way". Therefore, the argument that interracial couples were not allowed to marry and that it reflects the situation of gays is not a valid comparison. For those of you who would argue this, I dare you to show me VALID, RELIABLE, REPLICATED scientific studies that prove gays are born that way.

Two Types of "Marriage"
There presently exists two types of marriage in the U.S. One is between a couple in front of a minister - a religious marriage. The other is a couple in front of a judge - a civil ceremony.

Both types are binding. A religious ceremony is between a couple and God. A civil ceremony is between a couple and the government. Offically I don't think the government should have any say and certainly shouldn't be taxing it (marriage license fee).

As long as a couple has a civil union, I don't care if they are a man and woman or the same sex. After all, that is between them and the government. One the other hand, I have a serious problem with a same sex couple insisting they have the right to a religious ceremony. It may be performed by a human clergy - but it is still a ceremony with God. And that, according to God, is a sin. Insisting it be done is not going to make a couple free from sin; it simply tries to insist God is wrong. And I think anyone who tries will discover that it doesn't make God wrong; it makes those who insist upon it wrong.

So make all the civil unions you want; just leave the religious ceremonies to God.

Marriage license
A license is a legal contract. Considering that most of the law now consists of contracts, it is interesting. What is even more interesting is that it is a contract with the government. Ever stop to wonder what the contract is and what it entails? It can get interesting.

The ignorant, stupid and debased

people are those who think or believe that a same-sex couple has the same value to society as an opposite sex couple.

That such stupidity could be even considered much less promoted must necessarily be the result of people who attended law school and have, as a consequence, been renedered ignorant of all but law cases.

BrianR
"Completely incorrect. Utah was forced to ban polygamous marriages -- up to that point perfectly legal there -- in order to be granted admission to the Union."

That was exactly my thought hen he made that comment. In fact, the US forced a ban on polygamy to be included in the state Constitution. To this day, there is nothing that any court or legislator in the state of Utah can do about polygamy.

It is interesting that much of the federal government's involvement in the institution of marriage arose from the years when the federal government was trying to stamp out polygamy among the Mormons.

Worth Repeating:
wmou States:
"I do not care who marries who as long as I am not forced to call it normal or even real."
Ditto.

Jeffrey States:
"I think Prop 8 succeeded. It passed. With the help of dishonest ads financed by "Christians.""
Better list an example Jeffrey, I believe this statement is incorrect.

Elle States:
"I do not want it to (her marriage)be equated with 2 men engaging in anal sex."
Comparative common sense.

LoveIsEqual States:
Yes we do consummate our marriage but we really do not need to get into that now do we?"
Yeh, we don't, Thank you!


Dishonest from Yes on 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-pSye9W7FY

45caliber
"One the other hand, I have a serious problem with a same sex couple insisting they have the right to a religious ceremony. It may be performed by a human clergy - but it is still a ceremony with God. And that, according to God, is a sin."

According to YOUR religious beliefs. Other churches disagree and they have rights, too. Or do you want religious freedom for only your religion?

LoveIsEqual
Sorry but love is not equal, and it never has been.

The love that I feel for my husband is quite different than the love I feel for my child. The love I feel for my parents and siblings is quite different than that for my husband and child. The love I feel for my fellow man is quite different than that of my husband, child, and family. The love I feel for my dogs is totally different than those above mentioned. My love of Christ is a much different love than all of those above as well.

Love is not equal, nor has it ever been. Love is like most things in life comes in varying degrees for varying purposes. Love has it's place and has evolved in it it's proper place to the benefit of civilization as a whole. I have as yet to see any civilization founded or built upon homosexual love. It is the very foundation of heterosexual love that has allowed homosexual love to exist.

For BrianR @ 00:58 on will
It's like an old "Commando" (most of these focus on Britain during WW2) comics "The Black Ace" where an RAF aircraftman Dudley Mason calls one of his squadron-mates Jack Collins a coward for failing to come to his aid when they run into an FW-190 piloted by Franz von Stein (the titular "Black Ace"); Collins is somewhat sensitive about this labelling, as he had seen his father oft given white feathers (non-verbal version of it) during WW1 (at a later point, the elder Collins is revealed to have been in Intel) due to not being in combat. The labeling doesn't ease up when Collins rescues a boat crew, and returns (having already completed rescue) to hear Mason urging him to go out with him on it--and Collins gets most angered when Mason puts a feather on Collins' prop (and also a cushion in his cockpit stuffed with white feathers).

will is a bit like Mason, that he is the panderer while accusing others (such as Malkin).

(spoiler: when both wind up once again engaging von Stein in combat, and Collins smashes the FW-190 with his Hurricane--after Stein has disabled Mason's Hurry--and rescues Mason from the water with his own chute, Mason regrets his labelling of Collins; will, a typical groat, is incapable of even seeing his own errors)

Robert in AZ
"How it will be done is by calling a church a place of public accommodation because it allows its space to be used by AA, NA, birthday parties, voting, and so on. It will be an attack on charitable tax exemption."

Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. We've been through this before, and we continue to disagree, but there's one thing all honest people can agree on: In the Ocean Grove case (the only one at all resembling what you describe), Orange Grove did not lose its CHARITABLE tax exemption. That's very, very clear.

Setting Tyler straight

"dreadnaught
You say . . . people have not tried to block civil unions. What do you call a man and a woman who marry at city hall? It's a civil union!"

The marriage of tribal Africans in Swahililand is also correct. It takes a man and a woman and joins them. You could call it a "civil union" between then if it pleases you. But by ____ consummation it becomes marriage_____.

I'm a Catholic. If my marriage were never consummated (no marital act between my wife & me) the Church would grant her an annulment. Non-consummation is grounds for annulling what is PROVEN an invalid marriage.

The very point of this is; City Hall can sign your "marriage license" --but you aren't married.

A lawyer can arrange your civil union, but he can't make your "marriage" valid. When you marry before a JP, he legally marries you (just as an African tribesman marries.) But YOU have to consummate the marriage. Otherwise it's NOT a valid marriage.

Gays can't do it. Therefore, their so-called marriage is INVALID, no matter what a JP signed. The word marriage doesn't alter the facts.

Better then to arrange civil legality; for that you only need to shack up.

"[Married folks] have anal sex all the time."

That's debatable, Tyler. Even if they did; what that proves is they also have engaged in a sick act. It's a mortal sin for them as well as for a --> q u e e r

Matter of fact; many married people also blow other folks' brains out, kidnap kids, rob banks. That doesn't make those things OK. Telling a Doofus like you this truth doesn't make me insecure. It's just the truth.


Just remember who is most supportive

of the evil that are acts of same-sex sodomy.

Who most desires to promote self-hatred, self-loathing and despair in human beings? That is the one who most supports acts of same-sex sodomy and that is who you are serving if you promote or encourage acts of same-sex sodomy.

For the more obtuse among you, the one I refer to is Lucifer himself.

Everyone is free to choose whose side they are on. I choose Almighty God's side. That is the same God that made them male and female and for that reason a man shall leave his parents and cling to his wife.

eddie too
I wish you could share your views on national TV. I wish they could be shown over and over. I wish that undecided middle portion of the California electorate could see -- right before they enter the voting booth -- that opponents of same-sex marriage see sex between two loving, committed adults as service to Lucifer.

In fact 45caliber is correct
"I have a serious problem with a same sex couple insisting they have the right to a religious ceremony. It may be performed by a human clergy - but it is still a ceremony with God. And that, according to God, is a sin."

Robert answers,

"According to YOUR religious beliefs. Other churches disagree and they have rights, too. Or do you want religious freedom for only your religion?"





Yes; 45caliber; you're right; Robert is wrong.

Here rights become irrelevant. To GOD those vows of marriage spoken by homosexuals are a grievous offense. No matter if a thousand "other churches" feel otherwise.

Even civil unions; a legal arrangement, offend God. Under the law of the land, though-- they must apply; because those gays have rights. They actually are afforded a right to offend God, by the state! The state being altogether secular.

A church wedding is not secular. Vows of marriage pronounced by gays or lesbians do not give honor either to the wedding or to God. They purposely vow to live in sin. That's never the objective of true marriage, but the exact antithesis.



robbie

tis strange things indeed that you call sex, that you call loving.

The committed comment is a joke, right?

Anytime someone deliberately disobeys God's laws they are serving (whether they are cognitive of it or not) Lucifer.

It does not take a genius to know why sexual acts are pleasurable. It speaks volumes about the intelligence of same-sex sodomites that they think sex is solely for their pleasure.

Why do the same-sex sodomites abhor and denigrate sexual intercourse? Because they hate life, their lives and especially the lives of those who love living.

Of course practioners of same-sex sodomy are offended when the dead end of their actions is pointed out to them.

All I am saying is that people who understand the evil that are acts of same-sex sodomy need to stand up and be counted. They need to shout from the rooftops that acts of same-sex sodomy have no redeeming value.

once more, robert supports the evil

Eddie Too is correct TOO.
There is a real entity in this mix who argues in favor of illicit sex between homosexuals and lesbians.

Just as he loves to see atheism, murder, lying, adultery and all other human failings. We know him as Satan. This is NOT a distorted view of "love" or commitment. It faces the truth. We always please and serve the devil doing what God forbids us to do. Is that concept unknown to Robert?

Dogma ? Wisdom
When will humanity leave this blatant superstitious nonsense behind? Citing "sin" and "Lucifer" as justification for implementing civil policy? Really? Do you still blame your dead lawn on "witches" or attribute your recent cough to your passing of an empty offering plate? For the sake of the future, I hope your children do not follow in your footsteps.

America needs to be smarter than this.

eddie and dread
"The committed comment is a joke, right?"

That's why you'll lose. Your beliefs about same-sex couple are borne from ignorance and willful blindness.

dread
Based on your 3:36 PM EST comment, it's clear that you do indeed favor freedom of religion only for your own religion.

are you happy now?


There are freedoms that kill you, Robert. You already have them. Yet you demand even more. Like your cohorts, Jeremy and other s u c k e r s ; you want the truth stomped out.

Jeremy
If you are that concerned with the future you would worry about people who allow deviant sexual acts drive their lives and insist that these unnatural acts be accepted as main stream by society.

You claim to hope about children, if so you understand that children are not the products of homosexual behaviour.

Religion can be left completely out of the arguement over homosexuality and still not one compelling case can be made over this perverted act. It also does not take a religious person to find homosexuality repulsive and unnatural or to realize it lends not one single thing to better society or the advancement of the human race.

To Ray in TX
Actually; there have been homosexuals who gave a lot to society; while still living in total sleaze. We must keep in mind, all men have the option of confessing at last, and obtaining forgiveness from God.

That's the key. The orientation was never a bar against accomplishing great things. We have Michelangelo, Tchaikovsky, Oscar Wilde, all great men in the arts. Not all were damned for their sins. Just as not all thieves go to hell. Nor all liars.

We don't reject a homosexual for the way he feels. It's how he acts that's usually a gross detriment to his humanity.

Re: Anatomy for Biologically Challenged
"[Married folks] have anal sex all the time."

"Anal Sex" is not sex! Unfortunately for you, the anus is not a "sex organ" in mammals, such as humans; only amphibians, reptiles, and birds use the same orifice for excreting liquid and solid wastes, and for copulation and egg-laying; this orifice is known as the "cloaca", and not the "anus". In marsupials there are two different orifices: one for excreting both solids and liquids; the other for reproduction, which appears as a vagina in females and in males a "p e n i s".

The anus is an opening at the opposite end of an animal's digestive tract from the mouth. Its function is to expel feces, unwanted semi-solid matter produced during digestion, which, depending on the type of animal, may be one or more of: matter which the animal cannot digest, such as bones; food material after all the nutrients have been extracted, for example cellulose or lignin; ingested matter which would be toxic if it remained in the digestive tract; and dead or excess gut bacteria and other endosymbionts.

Boy, doesn't that sound sexy, using a body orifice, the anus, used to expel "excess gut bacteria" as a sex organ!

Genitals and genital area, is used to describe the externally visible sex organs, known as primary genitalia or external genitalia: in human males the "p e n i s", in human females the "clitoris and vulva".

BTW, the mouth isn't a "sex organ", either. Like the anus it is part of the human digestive system. Sorry to spoil your fantasies, but facts are sometimes hard things!

some other interesting points


To John Aston; thank you.

A side note on,

"the mouth isn't a "sex organ", either. Like the anus it is part of the human digestive system. Sorry to spoil your fantasies," you say. Very true.

Modern society would argue, Hey John. Come off it about --you know, saliva. you fail to consider the importance of some good, lascivious wet kisses applied on a male organ; making you like a loaded firearm, when the marital act itself gets serious. (Male and female.)

Where has this activity come from which engrosses even the husbands and wives of America? We're so hip to correct foreplay and of course, the model wife.

I believe it comes from the time-honored manuals of every brothel that ever sold VD with its sex. Yeah; it was standard procedure even when our ancestors flat-out died from gonohorreia, (sp). Is it now perceived as every wife's duty? Well, it is in dirty novels.

And from there it became popular almost everywhere there's "honey-love." God only knows why. But it's logical to think He condemns it. Homosexuals have no scruples. They act as if God were just another "homophobe."

God hates oral sex?
Another slogan I wish we could add to every anti-same-sex commercial. Keep it up, guys!

Why don't you ask God?


It was necessarily conjecture on my part, Robert. You came out from the tall grass, so I'm glad I posted that.

The central idea is, God declares His opposition to man-on-man buggery.

We all know, more or less, the way you & Bubba glom on one another;

That much, plus the realization of how important it always was in whorehouses is enough to condemn it for decent people.

The places where both sexual pleasure and incurable illnesses were purchased? I hope I'm not losing you, Rob. Gays also contract some yucky stuff the way they make love; we recall. An expert here seems to say the mouth isn't a sex organ. You think you can show otherwise?


which you were told before:
Yes, old boy;

"There are freedoms that kill you, Robert."