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Thursday, December 04, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
False Cures for the Recession
by Steve Chapman
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


Times of emergency produce demands for action, and Barack Obama does not need to be urged twice. Weeks before taking office, he wants Congress to pass a fiscal stimulus bill costing half a trillion dollars or so, and his allies on Capitol Hill will undoubtedly give it to him. Amid a recession that some fear will spiral into a depression, no one wants to be accused of doing too little.

Obama's plan is expected to call for a host of remedies -- including extended unemployment benefits, aid to state governments, more infrastructure spending and a middle-class tax cut. It brings to mind the character in Stephen Leacock's humorous novel "Gertrude the Governess," who "flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions."

Even many conservatives, however, want Washington to deploy fiscal weapons. Economist John Taylor of Stanford University and the Hoover Institution, an adviser to John McCain's campaign, says it "would be a significant stimulus to the economy" if the incoming president were to extend the Bush tax cuts.

There are only two drawbacks to the proposals offered by both the right and the left. First, they would cost a lot of money, either in lost revenue or additional federal expenditures, further bloating our gargantuan national debt. That cost would be worthwhile if it were essential to stave off a total economic collapse. But there is a second problem: These plans are not likely to work.

Shoveling cash into various public programs sounds like a surefire way to boost total demand and thus juice the economy. But the money doesn't sprout from trees in Tim Geithner's backyard. Any funds it wants to spend, the government will have to borrow. The people who lend the money will no longer have it to spend. So the total amount of spending may not change much, if at all.

Timing is another glitch. Putting crews to work on roads and bridges doesn't happen overnight -- plans have to be approved, bids have to be solicited and contracts have to be signed. The Department of Transportation says that even with projects that are primed and ready, only one-fourth of the money gets spent in the first year. By the time an infrastructure program gets rolling, the downturn will almost certainly be shrinking in the rearview mirror.

If there are worthy projects out there, now is a good time to do them. But all we should expect in return is a better infrastructure a few years from now, not a stronger economy next May.

Tax cuts also promise disappointment. The Bush administration claimed its 2001 tax cut had a tonic effect on a weak economy, but it turns out that most of the money went to increase savings or reduce debt, not to unleash spending. Likewise with this year's tax rebates.

Even some experts who favor keeping tax rates low doubt that extending the Bush tax cuts beyond 2010 would do anything for the economy right now. "As a tool for dealing with this crisis, I don't know," Nobel Laureate economist Robert Lucas of the University of Chicago told me. "It's misleading to advertise them as an anti-recession device."

In fact, it's misleading to advertise any fiscal policy as an anti-recession device. University of California, Berkeley economist Alan Auerbach examined all the different tools that have been tried in the last 50 years and found "little evidence that these effects have provided a significant contribution to economic stabilization, if in fact they have worked in the right direction at all."

Everyone wants to do something. But holding off on a fiscal stimulus package wouldn't exactly mean doing nothing. Monetary policy has historically had a more potent and predictable effect on the economy than fiscal policy, and in recent months Ben Bernanke has been spraying money with a fire hose -- cutting interest rates, boosting bank reserves 15-fold since August and taking radical steps like buying up short-term commercial debt.

All those steps will pay off, but they take time. Adding fiscal measures would probably be superfluous. If you want to go to the 10th floor on an elevator, punching the button over and over won't get you there any faster. We can throw a lot of money at the recession, but in the end, what we'll get is no hastening of recovery and a big stack of bills.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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The Path To Misery
Chapman says "All those steps will pay off, but they take time." he is right but not as he intends. The proposed steps will pay off but the payoff will be worse economic conditions, not better. Borrowing money from future earnings to fund projects that will not create profit making making ventures has always been a losing proposition.

I think it was Ludwig von Mises (but may have been Hayek) who said when asked what the government should do said "nothing, as quickly as possible". Politicians can't help themselves, they are genetically encoded to interfere in everything. Right now they should be letting the free market fix itself. They won't which will turn this recession into, most likely, something a lot worse.

Host of Remedies???

Sounds like what F.D.R. did.

Excuse me Mr. Obama, F.D.R.'s economic plan failed.

Ken
Actually what FDR did worked until he got convinced by arguments like Chapman's and tried to balance the budget before the depression was over.

If you look at growth during the Roosevelt years it is steady except for a dip around the time Roosevelt started acting on his concern that the deficit was getting too big.

On Chapman's list
It should be noted that some of the items on Chapman's list are then ignored on his account because they do have immediate effects. Extending unemployment benefits puts money in the hands of people who are likely to spend it immediately.

Although not on his list money given to the states can prevent looming layoffs, which does not have the time delay that is mentioned for newly budgeted items.

And with economists predicting a 14 month downturn, a lot of that infrastructure spending will occur during the downturn.

That Chapman can find one well credentialed economist who thinks a stimulus now would not help should not conceal that even the great majority of conservative economists now think a stimulus is needed.

Does a big tax increase in 2010 help?
Don't look at it as undoing the bush tax cuts. Current tax rates are what they are; if they go up in 2010, then it's a tax increase no matter what they were when Bush came into office.

Don't you think that businesses are concerned about a massive tax increase coming at them in only a year like an express train? No wonder no one is investing. This was predicted when the "sunsetted" tax cuts were passed in 2003.

Besides, the notion that tax rate cuts reduce revenue is just nonsense, and flies in the face of ample historical evidence all the way back to JFK. Tax cuts -> more business -> more revenue. On the other had, tax rate increases have always caused revenue stagnation. See 1993 and the increasing deficits through the mid 90s.

The three things we need to do to end the current "troubles" are 1) make the tax cuts permanent 2) cut corporate taxes to something similar to the rates of the EU (15-20%) 3) cut or eliminate capital gains taxes -- a destructive tax on investment. Only expanding business, not expanding government, will get us out of this mess.

Dear All,
Some of us are investing:

in Ireland where the business tax is at 11%

Why should I support an economny that punsishes me? I have children, family and older parents to support--the government does not give me a tax break for helping support five, yes, FIVE members of my family who are sick, or in trouble.

Erin Go Braugh!

Rowdy Boots

Dear All Who Work,
Just take your money and only spend 80% of what you take in--try that for two years and see if you have enought to open your own business--cut out the unnecessary shopping!

Also, turn of the television--those perverse folks do not like you and they think you are stupid--trust me, I was in Television--until I realized they were anti-human and all pro-ME, MYSELF AND I types--give themt he boot!

Rowdy Boots

More economics
"Extending unemployment benefits puts money in the hands of people who are likely to spend it immediately."

Even if that were true (in reality only a fraction is spent), the net imact is to extend/increase unemployment which is economcally harmful. Besides, efforts to improve the eonomy by "stimulating demand" have never worked. They can't.

"Although not on his list money given to the states can prevent looming layoffs, which does not have the time delay that is mentioned for newly budgeted items."

Additional state spending ultimately reduces jobs and curtails economic growth because the resources need to be taken from productive activities in the economy (either via taxes or inflation).

"And with economists predicting a 14 month downturn, a lot of that infrastructure spending will occur during the downturn."

No. That assessment is based on a determination that the recession began a year ago - essentally none of the outlay will occur by the end of the first quarter. Though, unless the ne administration makes things worse, unemployment will take until mid-2010 to turn (about 18 months after the economy turns as is always the case).

"That Chapman can find one well credentialed economist who thinks a stimulus now would not help..." is a recognition of reality. Even the members of Clinton's Council of Economic advisors conceded (in part based on their own research that stimulus packages never work. In fact, the research is unanimous on that point.

"even the great majority of conservative economists now think a stimulus is needed."

Say hello to Mr. Rorke and Tattoo while you're there on the island.

EXPERIENCE

One of the words used the most during the past election was “EXPERIENCE.”

It was applied to members of both campaigns, and was screamed over and over. The Alaskan Sweetie didn’t have the experience the Demo Hate Machine, and their cohort MSDNC thought she should have.

And of course many on the right truthfully pointed out that Obama has spent little time in Government. So we all know that the most important word for a job hunter is EXPERIENCE.

But now that the financial mess is overwhelming all of us, no one is saying that even with the centuries of education and millennia of experience of all the millions of bankers, brokers, lawyers, economics, and politicians, experience has not been a bit of help for this financial problem.

Obama has the least experience, and he has been the most successful.

Those millions of experienced idiots have billions of man-years experience, and they have failed mightily. Don’t tell me that there was no way to know this was going to happen, and that they knew of no way to stop it before it got here.

jim
"But now that the financial mess is overwhelming all of us, no one is saying that even with the centuries of education and millennia of experience of all the millions of bankers, brokers, lawyers, economics, and politicians, experience has not been a bit of help for this financial problem."

Your position doesn't hold up.

If you have a dozen experts in physics who understand the propogation of fire, another dozen experienced fire fighters and another dozen engineers who are expert in fireproofing buildings and one determined kid with a 10-gallon gas can and a match, their experience is not going to prevent the house from catching fire.

The consequences of flooding the economy with excess liquidity (the real cause of the problem) have been long known for decades - even Bernanke conceded as much. Unfortunately that didn't stop the Fed from actually doing it.

Blaming the experienced guys for not preventing the fie is really pretty useless. Expecting an inexperienced new kid (who has demonstrated that he knows NOTHING about either fire or houses) to put it out and rebuild the place is completely rrational.

Extending unemployment benefits leads to
...more unemployment! By extending the benefit period, the unemployed are less inclined to look for new employment. Why should they when Uncle Sugar (and the state) are paying the bills? Secondly, the money has to come from somewhere and that somewhere is from employers. So by extending the benefit period, employers will have to pay more into the system, which means they will ultimately have to let people go to remain profitable. And hence more unemployed.

truth about infrastructure
The far-right’s unreasoned hatred of infrastructure projects is detrimental to the future of this country.
A few facts:
• Our existing infrastructure has outlived it’s intended ‘design life’ by decades. Collapsing bridge disasters (just one example) will become more frequent than in a 3rd world country if spending is not increased dramatically, now!
• Our economy depends on the timely and efficient movement of goods & people. This requires an integrated system of roads, rail, air and shipping. The right refuses to spend public money on any but roads. Why do you guys consider subways to be ‘socialist” but federally funded highways to be all-American?
• Whether you like it or not, the future is urban, not rural or suburban. That means far greater investment in subways, light rail , people movers, etc. and far less spending on roads. Fight it, accept it, or ignore it, but that is the future.
• While the greatest return from infrastructure investment is a safe, modern and efficient world to live in, there can be no denying the economic impacts of well planned infrastructure projects. Architects, engineers, construction superintendents, plumbers, carpenters, iron workers, electricians, equipment operators and laborers are just some of the occupations who depend on these projects for their livelihoods. Then there are the support staff (accountants, human resources, suppliers, and all of the places where these folks will spend their salaries - restaurants, car dealers, hotels, shopping malls, etc.
I can think of no better place for the USA to spend whatever funds it has available. The jobs created are good jobs, with salaries capable of supporting families, real benefits and good futures. Every day I walk over a highway bridge built in 1937. The money spent on that bridge has been repaid hundreds of times over.
Along with public education, there is no better investment in our country’s future than infrastructure.

1937
Steve from CA, it's interesting that you mention jobs and 1937 in the same breath. Even with all the glorious infrastructure projects, unemployment was still in the high teens in late 1930s. Now that's something to be proud of.

How he can do it
THE ULTIMATE FEDERAL ECONOMIC REFORM
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the only ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third, While Democrats have 47 Trillion Dollars in new taxes written in bills awaiting action to quadruple the tax burden of all Americans, except for tax-exempt rich liberals.

Cut the Corporate Tax Rate
Cut it to 10% or less. Cut state property taxes. Give us the Gohmert tax holiday. Allow companies that fail to go bankrupt.

We built this house of cards and we all knew that when it fel it was going to fall hard.

...and while your cutting taxes
...put Barney Frank and Chris Dodd in federal prison.

Fire Cox. Fire Paulson.

Vote out Pelosi and Reid in 2010.

Start over. Follow the constitution.

Federal Government spending should never exceed 10% of GDP.

The budget should be balanced. Government borrowing only during times like these but total government debt should never exceed 20% of 1-year's GDP.

Get rid of "Green" - we can't afford it.

Drill, Drill, Drill

Fair trade, not Free Trade

steve, some flaws with your analysis
You operate from the unsubstantiated assumption that governmenment is the most efficient provider of infrastructure. That "our existing infrastructure has outlived it’s intended ‘design life’" and that "our economy depends on the timely and efficient movement of goods" are both points in favor of market solutions.

Private delivery systems perform quite well. Amtrak is an inefficient money pit. No "integrated system" is required beyond that provided by the market.

We don't "consider subways to be 'socialist'", per se, but the two are materially different. Roads do not place all the costs on everyone else. Cars are not supplied. Highways are funded via gas (usage) taxes. Subways and rail are typically subsidized and not otherwise commercially viable.

"[T]he future is urban."

Technology has vastly DECREASED the need for urbanization. Cities are SRINKING in the US. The future is against you.

"[T]here can be no denying the economic impacts of well planned infrastructure projects."

Oh, yes ther can. You are falling for the "broken window" fallacy (look it up). These projects flatly DO NOT create jobs. To the contrary, they must be funded with resources coming from other, more productive aspects of the economy and the net impact is a DECREASE in employment. Far better to leave the funds in those productive activities in the first place and seek market-based solutions for infrastructure needs.

The money spent by government in the past has never been, and will never be recovered. The economic costs, funneled through government inefficiency, always - without exception - exceed the economic benefit.

In this case the fireman set the fire

F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 10
Date: Dec 4, 2008 - 2:02 PM EST

If you have a dozen … … who are expert in fireproofing buildings and one determined kid with a 10-gallon gas can and a match, their experience is not going to prevent the house from catching fire.

============

Not the same at all. You say the kid with the gas can set the fire, and no way the experts could stop it from happening. In that case, the kid had none of the experience of the experts, maybe if he knew all the damage that could happen, he would not have started the fire.

In the financial situation, the people who had the “gas can” were the experts and they knew exactly what happened the last 20 times similar things happened, so could have stopped it before it got out of hand.

Now they all are telling us how to solve the problem, and the solution is not much different than doing exactly the opposite of what they were doing. Just like the past 20 times it happened.

Two years ago I talked to a banker about the coming mortgage problem, and a solution, and he said, “Don’t tell anyone in DC, they might change the law.”

You said: Blaming the experienced guys for not preventing the fie is really pretty useless. Expecting an inexperienced new kid (who has demonstrated that he knows NOTHING about either fire or houses) to put it out and rebuild the place is completely rrational.

Me again: Again you are wrong, no one in this whole financial mess were inexperienced, they knew exactly what was going wrong and how to stop it, but didn’t.

What are they doing now that they could have been doing a year or two ago, and doing it in a much easier manner?

F1etch &MikeMetoka
F1etch

Several points. Where has building infrastructure without government involvement worked particular in urban contexts?


The public benefits of subways usage go beyond the private benefits. They reduce congestion, pollution etc. These are all unpriced costs of urbanization that are reduced by subways and thus justify subsidies.

Your point about federal borrowing crowding out private borrowing is not a problem because no one is borrowing now even though the fed keeps cutting interest rates.

Your point about urbanization being outdated is not supported by the evidence. Rural areas are still decreasing in population. While central cities may be declining in population metropolitan areas are still growing. When higher gas prices return, as they will after the recession, we may even find that urban areas become more compact and therefore need even more public infrastructure improvements.

MikeMetoka
You said:

"Besides, the notion that tax rate cuts reduce revenue is just nonsense, and flies in the face of ample historical evidence all the way back to JFK. Tax cuts -> more business -> more revenue. On the other had, tax rate increases have always caused revenue stagnation. See 1993 and the increasing deficits through the mid 90s."

Even if one conceded that what you say might be true--maybe if tax rates were above 50%-- there would be diminishing returns to further cuts at some level. Advocates of further tax cuts never address the point where further cuts produce less revenue. Or do you thing cutting taxes to 0% would produce more revenue too?

Empirically, your citing the 1993 tax increase makes no sense because we increased revenue and had a balanced budget by the late 1090's. I would argue in part because of the tax increase.

jim: Clarification
"You say the kid with the gas can set the fire, and no way the experts could stop it from happening."

That's correct. A number of economists have pointed out the problem of Fed manipulation of the money supply such that the boom-and-bust cycle is created. Bernanke even conceded that similar actions by the Fed in the 30s gave us the Great Depression, but that didn't stop the Fed (which cannot be constrained by Congress, the President, or knowledgabe economists) from doing exactly that. THAT was THE cause of the fire. Freddie and Fannie exacerbated it and the mortgage and derivative markets were mde irrational BECAUSE of it, but that was the source.

To the extent that you would criticize Bernanke for now pushing "solutions" to the problem, I can only agree, but you seem to be focusing your ire on bankers and brokers and economists (other than those in the Fed) and others who did not strike the match.

I'll concede that Bernanke WAS experienced and that he should have known better. Sadly, by a year or two ago, most of the damage had already been done. It was complete a year ago - what we are experiencing now is the unavoidable COST of that damage.

JPH
"Where has building infrastructure without government involvement worked..."

Private ports, rails, airports, toll roads, toll bridges, etc. That government subsidy has taken much of this over so that the private sector can not compete does not mean it is better. I have no problem with government roads, but steve went beyond that.

"The public benefits of subways usage go beyond the private benefits."

That assumption is based upon two fallacies - that these problems are typically big enough to warrant intervention and that the private sector can't solve these problems or provide mass transit in the absence of state monopoly. The presumed benefits have never been demonstrated to warrant the subsidy.

"Your point about federal borrowing crowding out private borrowing..."

I said nothing about "borrowing". Economically every dollar SPENT by government is unavailable to the more productive private sector obtained either via taxation or inflation. As government is far less efficient than the private sector, the resources available for employment are reduced by that differential. If government spends $20 billion and is 99% as efficient as the private sector (absurdy high), then $400,000 of employment opportunities are eliminated by that expenditure. If its a 70% efficiency (more realstic but still high), then $6 BILLION worth of employent opportunities are lost on a net basis.

"Your point about urbanization being outdated is not supported by the evidence."

The statement is factally wrong. All across the US (and Europe), city populations (including metropolitan areas) have been decreasing for many years. This has been a growing problem for metropolitan tax bases for some time. Only in third world countries is it increasing substantially. Suburban areas have shown all the growth and are moving farther from urban centers, even as gas prices rose.

ELIMINATE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
THIS IS THE LARGEST WASTE IN THE COUNTRY AND HAS NOT ONE THING TO DO WITH EDUCATING ANYONE NOR WAS IT EVER DESIGNED FOR SUCH PURPOSES. IT WAS A STOPGAP PROGRAM TO GET ALL STATES ON LINE WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT NOW IT HAS OUT LIVED ITS USEFULNESS.THIS IS HOW THE DEMOCRATS COULD IMPLIMENT CHANGE.REAGAN PROPOSED IT BUT BETWEEN BUSH AND CLINTON IT GOT LOST.

the fireman set the fire

F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 20
Date: Dec 4, 2008 - 5:54 PM EST
jim: Clarification
"You say the kid with the gas can set the fire, and no way the experts could stop it from happening."
----------
Me: No, re-read my post and your earlier post, you said the boy did it. I said the fireman set the fire. It was the inside experts who did the harm by not paying attention to what was going on.

I don’t claim to understand the Fed, but there were still millions of people who knew what was going wrong. And if the people in charge in one place knew, people in a hundred places had to know.

Are you telling me that the million lawyers who craw all over everyplace, did not know the deals they were approving, and the papers they were writing, were not even up to the criminal standards of the legal so-called profession?

What were the economists taught in school? What knowledge did it take to become President of a billion dollar bank?

Are you telling me that the members of Congress who have been sucking on the money tit for decades, didn’t know anything about it? They always claim to be the expert when they are running for election.

Are you trying to tell me that the CEO’s of the Big Three only found they were in trouble just a couple of weeks ago? Isn’t that interested, last week Congress told them to make a plan to save their company. Funny they hadn’t thought of that before.

the fireman set the fire con't


I’m not critiquing Bernanke specifically, I don’t even know what he does for a living, I mean really does, or should do, I am talking about the whole bunch of them. I can’t believe that it was a surprise in just the last month or two, that this big problem was hiding just outside the office door.

You: but you seem to be focusing your ire on bankers and brokers and economists (other than those in the Fed) and others who did not strike the match.

Me: But out of all those millions of other people, a few thousand of them might have seen the smoke, if not the flame.

You: Sadly, by a year or two ago, most of the damage had already been done

Me: Well if you knew that, why didn’t “they” know that?

Barack Obama = Ayn Rand
Just 2 weeks ago, you compared the messiah’s economic philosophy to that of Ayn Rand!

Barry’s spending proposals, better known as socialist subsidies, don’t sound like Rand’s Objectivism to me. I am shocked that you don’t approve.

You really should keep track of what you recently wrote.

You are without a doubt one of the dumbest talking idiots here at TH.

jim
Jim that was in quotes because it (including the "you said") was what you posted to me.

I was agreeing that I said that because (except Bernanke as I explained) it was correct. It was NOT the inside experts who did the harm by not paying attention to what was going on.

"I don’t claim to understand the Fed..."

...apparently...

"...but there were still millions of people who knew what was going wrong."

You don't seem to know:

"Are you telling me that the million lawyers who craw all over everyplace, did not know the deals they were approving..."

You are operating from the misconception that the "deals" were the cause of the problem. That is not the case. The fundamental economic principle has to do with risk pricing in the presence of too much liquidity. There's no question that the loans being made were riskier, but that was specifically BECAUSE there was so much liquidity in the marketplace so that the distorted market signals made those underwriting the riskier instruments believe that the aggregate risk was covered by the return they were generating (which, contrary to popular belief, was NOT obviously wrong under prevailing market conditions). When the distortions were removed, the house of cards collapsed.

Had the marketplace not been manipulated by the Fed, NONE of those riskier instruments would have existed. Anyone attempting to create them would find no ultimate lender willing to underwrite the risk. the problem was exacerbated by Fannie and Freddie which gave the impression (validated by events) that losses would be covered by the government, incenting further risky behavior.

The fault lies not with bankers responding to market signals or members of Congress inasmuch as they cannot make Fed policy or the car companies that, like other businesses, are suffering from economic hard times (which doesn't mean they deserve handouts). It was wrong-headed monetary policy.

F1etch
Infrastructure is one of those things that for the most part the government does better than the private sector for a variety of reasons. The private sector will be unable to recoup its investment in subways because the private benefits are less than the public ones and that is not because of size. Public benefits --external to the pricing process-- are hard to quantify but they do exist and they are substantial in this case. Furthermore, the private sector lacks the power of eminent domain.

There are cases where the private sector may be able to address infrastructure but urban transportation is not one of them.


Regarding your point about government use of financial resources there is no proposal to raise the infrastructure funding through tax increases in the short run but to do so through borrowing where there is little demand for money at the moment. So an infrastructure package will not be replacing private investment in the short run. So it would have a stimulating effect something that many conservative and liberal economists agree on.

Lastly, your point about urbanization being outdated is wrong. Check out the US Bureau of the Census. We are currently a little over 80% urban and that is a slight increase over 2000 which was up from 1990. In 1970 we were in the neighborhood of 75%. Likewise, the percent urban in Europe is not decreasing. (World Development Report) If you have data to the contrary, please cite it.

jim continued
"I’m not critiquing Bernanke specifically, I don’t even know what he does for a living..."

I am. I do.

"I am talking about the whole bunch of them."

But, again, while you can legitimately blame Congress and Bush for unrestrained spending and unwarranted bailouts and any number of wrong-headed economic policies, THIS PARTICULAR RECESSION was the direct result of none of these things. It was due to the boom-and-bust cycle creating central bank.

"I can’t believe that it was a surprise in just the last month or two..."

It wasn't. But politicians are loathe to tell people bad news. The damage was actually done between 2003 and early 2005. The costs were increased by the Fed swinging the other way too far between 2006 and 2008. Early this year, they tried swinging back again but it was too late. This problem was years in the making not just months. Many saw the smoke but only the 12 governors on the Federal Open Market Committee at the Fed could do ANYTHING about it and they are an independent body who had already caused to much damage for there not to be a huge cost.

JPH - a response 1
"Infrastructure is one of those things that for the most part the government does better than the private sector for a variety of reasons."

That is opinion, not fact.

"The private sector will be unable to recoup its investment in subways because the private benefits are less than the public ones and that is not because of size."

LA is pursuing precisely that for a new line to the sea. Chicago and Denver also have successful private operations. If the investment could not be recouped, then their is no economic justification for the investment in the first place. You have not provided any evidence (none exists) that the externalities (public benefits) are such that they warrant removing dollars from productive areas of the economy to fund them.

"Furthermore, the private sector lacks the power of eminent domain."

True. It changes nothing, particularly since the use of eminent domain in such circumstances is arguably unjustified. Eminent domain means nothing more than that the government can take property without paying its real value.

JPH - a response - 2
"Regarding your point about government use of financial resources..."

You keep missing the point. The very act of the EXPENDITURE removes the resources from elsewhere in the economy. If the funds are borrowed, the loaned resources are unavailable for use elsewhere. The mechanism for funding is irrelevant (the nonsense about "little demand" for those resources notwithsatnding). Economically, the expenditure itself by government has the effect stated. There is no such thing as an economic stimulus related to government outlays - the concept is economically unsound and, in reality economists largely agree that the studies on the subject indicate precisely that.

"Lastly, your point about urbanization being outdated is wrong."

I stand corrected. The trend has swung back. It was my data that was outdated. nevertheless, the trend has swung back and forth and, as the Census Bureau points out, the increase in urbanization peaked more than a century ago and the primary growth areas include boroughs with concentrations of as few as 2,500 people.

F1etch
Would you argue that if the private sector cannot recoup the cost of policing then it should not be done.

There is a category of good called "public good" where the benefits are not excludable nor diminishable. National defense is the classic one but many other goods including urban transportation possess these characteristics to some degree. They require at least some involvement by government or they would not be provided.

While the private sector is the preferred way of doing many things there are certain functions that only government can do.

Keep in mind that Private sector operation is different than investing and building.


Mossberg @ 2:04
Yup. And there was a problem with transition time between UI and Paycheck, back the last time I was on. The UI checks show up fairly soon, but a monthly paycheck takes forever. That's when I learned saving is even more important for people with low incomes.

F1etch
In stating that the act of expenditure removes the resources from from elsewhere in the economy, you assume a "zero sum game." When labor is idle and capital is available but unused then government mobilizes both and put them to use. That would be an expansion of economic activity. I don't know how you can spin it otherwise. Neither do know where you could have acquired the notion that there is no such thing government stimulus. Please cite the economists who say that. There are those who advocate manipulating the money supply as the preferred way of stimulating the economy but that doesn't work if people are afraid to make loans or to borrow no matter how cheap the money.

You dropped it!

F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 27
Date: Dec 4, 2008 - 8:07 PM EST

Jim that was in quotes because it (including the "you said") was what you posted to me.
=======

Not quite. You missed something very important, that makes all the difference in the world. I would suspect that some of the financial problems we have now are caused by a similar problem.

You dropped the : : : : the colon after You Said:!!

Being the expert with no experience, I give up, but thanks for the “trip.”

Whoops, I just remembered something. I won’t bother to look it up, but I seem to remember that the auto bigs reported a loss of billions during the past few years. Right?

So why was this such a surprise, and why didn’t they have a plan of some kind the first time they went begging?


Econ for JPH
"Would you argue that if the private sector cannot recoup the cost of policing then it should not be done."

Policing IS a "public good" and often roadbuilding. The other forms of infrastructure do not meet that criterion. It is the inability to induce the user to assume the cost that makes something a public good, not the level of "public benefit", which again has NOT been demonstrated.

"In stating that the act of expenditure removes the resources from from elsewhere in the economy, you assume a 'zero sum game.'"

It is a question of alternative use. If labor/capital is idle, it means the market has not generated a sufficient return to justify its use. That government alters this dynamic rather than allowing the marketplace to determine the necessary return to mobilize those resources is an example of that economic ineffciency. It's the "socialist allocation problem". No government can allocate resources - under ANY circumstances, including apparent resource "idleness" - as efficiently as the market. Any government expenditure is always a deadweight loss to the economy to the extent of that inefficiency. By definition, any government mobilization of resources is in preference to a market allocation and there can never be an increase in economic activity beyond what the market creates. There's no such thing as government stimulus; it's basic economics. Read Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Rothbard, Powell, Schumpeter, Friedman, etc. - the entire Austrian school (including me) AND the Chicagoans (together accounting for most economists).

The Chicagoans argue that the economy can be managed to a certain extent by manipulating the money supply - that's entirely different from stimulus via government expenditure.

Learn grammar and reasoning skills
"You missed something very important, that makes all the difference in the world."

No, I didn't. Go back and re-read your 4:32 PM post. I quoted you verbatim and there is no colon in your statement. I did not include a "You said:" BEFORE the quote. It is superfluous.

It is this insistence that your misapplication of the knowledge you have that is the problem. As is so frequently the case, it isn't what you don't know that is the problem, it's what you're absolutely sure about that just ain't so.

Instead you keep pretending that symptoms and irrelevancies ("I seem to remember that the auto bigs reported a loss of billions during the past few years") change the nature of the cause of the recession. Auto makers are not such a tremendous percentage of the economy that their performance is the economic bellwether.

Self-correction
My apologies; that's the "socialist CALCULATION problem" - not "allocation".

The Keynesian school (falling ever further into disfavor) argued that governmental expenditure in order to generate economic stimulus (achieve full employment) was of value but that view has been discredited. Governmental activity is extra-market behavior. There is no competitive price structure to rely upon to determine the correct allocation of resources (and it goes beyond the funding of the infrastructure in the case of rail, subways, etc. to include operation in essentially a monopolistic setting). Without the information provided by market prices, government lacks a method to rationally allocate resources and invariably creates economic inefficiencies. There is, again, no such thing as economic stimulus created by government expenditure.

It Depends on who wears the Depends


F1etch Location: PA
Reply # 37
Date: Dec 5, 2008 - 5:33 AM EST
=======

Well, you look at this and I look at that, and if you go to

jim Location: CA
Reply # 18
Date: Dec 4, 2008 - 4:32 PM EST

“You said: Blaming”
---

I say "You said:" is one of the most important discussion on TH, ever!

F1etch
You said:

"There is no competitive price structure to rely upon to determine the correct allocation of resources (and it goes beyond the funding of the infrastructure in the case of rail, subways, etc. to include operation in essentially a monopolistic setting). Without the information provided by market prices, government lacks a method to rationally allocate resources and invariably creates economic inefficiencies. There is, again, no such thing as economic stimulus created by government expenditure."

I will agree with all that you say up to the last sentence. What you say up to that last sentence does not, however, establish what you then say. That is an ideological statement and not one that can be established deductively or inductively.

On another point, there are public goods that are not "pure" meaning that there are both private benefits and benefits that are not captured in the pricing process. Education is one such example. In addition to the private gain from an education the rest of us also gain through higher productivity and lower social costs such as crime etc. Therefore, there is often both a public and a private component to these kind of goods. The fact that these external benefits and costs are hard to calculate does not, however, mean that they do not exist as you seem to imply.

JPH (since Jim can't read his own post)
“What you say up to that last sentence does not, however, establish what you then say.”

Res ipsa loquitor.

Given:

A: Resources are limited (Econ 101)

B: Resources can be allocated in one way or another, but never in both at the same time. (ditto)

C: Government cannot allocate resources as efficiently as the private sector (socialist calculation problem)

Then:

D: Any governmental allocation of resources yields an economic return lower than the economic return lost (at the point of expenditure) by removing those resources from the private sector. The result is a net loss.

Thus, “There is, again, no such thing as economic stimulus created by government expenditure."

Perhaps you are proceeding from the mistaken assumption that “idleness” exists anywhere in that progression. “Idleness” is really an allocation for resources to a state preparatory for use in some other productive means. And, even if it did exist, there is no evidence that creating a new government expenditure would employ “idle” resources instead of resources that are otherwise in active use while still leaving other resources “idle”.

“[T]here are public goods that are not ‘pure’ meaning that there are both private benefits and benefits that are not captured in the pricing process.”

That does not make them public goods; it makes them goods that have “externalities” – which, of course, exist; I never implied otherwise. There are positive externalities (if you get a vaccine, you can’t give me the virus) and negative ones (pollution). That externalities exist do not make them “public goods” nor does it mean that externalities cannot be handled by the private sector (private property rights are the best way to deal with pollution, for example) or even that the private sector cannot produce a superior product at les cost (the public school system, in the aggregate, being a case in point).

F1etch
For your deduction to hold the economy would have to be be working at maximum capacity. There is substantial unemployment and the fed is doing it best to get banks to loan. How does the the government's use of these resources to build infrastructure (a new capital resource), even if it is not as efficient as the private sector, detract from private investment. Your entire argument is predicated on the erroneous assumption that the government is going to use a resource here that the privates sector competing for at the moment.

Your assertions about the private sector building infrastructure in the face of substantial externalities means that it will under-provide to the extent that these externalities exist. This then is its own inefficiency.

You objection to the term "public good" as applied to education or any good where there are substantial externalities in merely a semantic quibble. You only want to apply the term to "pure" public goods which are indeed few in number.

I know that economists on the right down play the role of external costs and benefits and claim that they will be priced out in land costs where they exist. Your point about externalities being priced out in land costs is problematic. Externalities are a large factor in urban contexts and are a substantial disincentive to investment in housing as well as infrastructure. If land pricing were to be relied on it only occur with a huge time lag--decades or more. After all, to quote and economist, "in the long run we are all dead."

F1etch an Elaboration

If there is a need for improved infrastructure, which many people across the spectrum argue there is, why, given the current surplus of labor and cheap capital, is the private sector not rushing in to build that infrastructure. Investment in consumer spending is probably not going to pay off for now so it would seem to be the time to invest in infrastructure. Could it be the inability to recapture their investment in anything less than 100 years.

A 4-part response 1
"For your deduction to hold the economy would have to be be working at maximum capacity."

No. Again, capacity is not germane to the issue (and the Keynesian notion that government spending to reduce unemployment - or reach "full employment" has been discarded as both unworkable and highly inflationary). If there are 100 people in the economy and only half (50) are actively working and the state could guarantee that its project would employ 25 workers NOT in that group - an impossibility - the resources to pay for those 25 must STILL come from the existing economy (at the expense of the otherwise private sector activities that they would be used for).

You are merely stating the "idleness" fallacy again or, perhaps, Bastiat's famous "broken window" fallacy (full text available on-line). This latter presumes an economic stimulus when a shopkeeper has a broken window (or a hurricane hits New Orleans) because the glazier (or a huge group of construction workers) is put to work to address the problem. In each case, however, there is NO stimulus, because the resources needed to PAY for those activities must come out of the economy. The shopkeeper can't instead buy a new suit. The construction workers cannot build something else that would otherwise have come into being.

Idleness, unemployment, capacity - the notion that government can address these to create an economic stimulus is without basis (and was, thankfully, discarded long ago by the majority of the economics field).

A 4-part response - 2
Meanwhile, unemployment only recently climbed above the long-term (30 year) average so calling it "substantial" is hard to credit. Meanwhile, the Fed's efforts have been as useless as they must be - having caused the problem in the first place, they have undermined confidence in the economy and are facing the same problems they did in the 1930s.

Another example is the all-too-common belief that war (World War II in particular) creates, or has created, economic stimulus. This fallacy is similar to the "broken window" fallacy in that destruction is misperceived as an economic benefit and government spending is confused with productive activity - t is perpetuated by relying upon GDP figures while consumption tanked and consumers were forced to deal with widespread shortages.

"Your assertions about the private sector building infrastructure in the face of substantial externalities means that it will under-provide to the extent that these externalities exist."

Yours are based on the unsupported - and entirely subjective - assumption that they ARE substantial. Your claim that they are particularly "large" in urban settings is particularly dubious.

A 4-part response - 3
Whether you believe it is mere semantics or not, “public goods” in economic terminology refer only to those where the DIRECT benefit can be realized by third parties, not the indirect benefits of a society that is, as an example, better educated. A public good is one in which individual A feels no need to purchase a good because it will be available to him if it is purchased by individual B. A good with externalities (significant or otherwise) is one in which individual A receives NO direct benefit but may get an indirect benefit because individual B has, for example, been vaccinated or has learned a skill that he can use to A's benefit. The concepts are distinct.

"Your point about externalities being priced out in land costs is problematic."

Not at all - in part because I did not make that specific claim. I claimed that externalities CAN be handled by the private sector and, as an example, that pollution can be handled best with private property rights. In context, Scotland's privatization of water resources has been phenomenally successful at solving pollution problems.

I have not even argued against improving infrastructure, which in many cases may well be entirely warranted and, in the context of our current society, wherein the bridges, for example, are largely a government monopoly, a discussion of its funding source is essentially moot. That does not change the fact that government is an inefficient allocator of resources and such activities do not, under any circumstances, yield an economic stimulus.

A 4-part response - 4
"[W]hy, given the current surplus of labor and cheap capital, is the private sector not rushing in to build that infrastructure."

In no small part, because the government exercises monopoly rights over infrastructure in this country. It creates massive disincentives for private investment that would not exist if the government were not involved. It isn't that they would not recoup their investment in 100 years - which would not be the case in a private system - but that they will not recoup their investment at all because of the government monopoly.

"Investment in consumer spending is probably not going to pay off for now so it would seem to be the time to invest in infrastructure."

This is based on another common fallacy, also perpetuated by a misreading of the GDP calculation, that the economy is driven by consumer spending. The reality is that the producer side of the equation is much larger but, in order to prevent double counting, only the final consumer activity is counted.

The economic realities are that government expenditure cannot stimulate the economy even with 90% unemployment; there is no evidence that government is better able to address ANY externalities than the private sector; and there is no evidence whatsoever that externalities are particularly “large” and, thus, requiring intervention in any circumstance including an urban setting. Opinion is not evidence.

F1etch
Your analysis assumes that private sector use of resources is always superior to public sector use of resources. Give the fact that many of the benefits of infrastructure development are unrecoverable to the market--increased land values along transportation arteries--the private sector would seldom allocate resources to that sector. That does not mean, however, that infrastructure investment would not pay greater dividends to the economy than some private sector investments. Therefore, public sector infrastructure investment may very will be more productive than private alternatives. It just is hard to judge given that it infrastructure, education etc includes costs and benefits that are outside the immediate market pricing mechanism.


The public sector may or may not be inferior to the private sector. But it is an economic actor just like any private institution. Would you argue that there is no advantage to attracting investment from outside the country. By your logic they would only take resources from some existing sector and therefore produce no new growth. It is not a zero sum game.




F1etch
Regarding the you skepticism about externalities in urban areas. Every Realtor knows--location,location,location--that they are a major factor in housing values. The worth of your house is a function of the investments made by your neighbors thus we have zoning to regulate (with limited success) external effects. Consequently, neighborhoods rise and fall together. It is in urban areas where there is the greatest demand for regulation such as zoning, pollution control, noise ordinances, controls on barking dogs etc all external effects of behavior exacerbated by density. Every transportation project produces major winners and losers. In some part, that is why we tax property to fund infrastructure rather than sales or income.

To a considerable extent, this is why we have cities. Businesses move there to access these external economies. Their water, sewer, police protection cost less. They take advantage of the dense transportation structure etc. However, there are also dis-economies of this agglomeration.

In areas of great density what we do benefits and costs those around is in ways that it never did for Daniel Boone where his behavior affected few others.

I will grant that external effects are hard to quantify but that does not mean they do not exist. In a urban context, a completely unfettered free market would have problems with efficient resource allocation.

I think conservative economists reject this because it highlights market imperfection and calls into question whether there is a market solution to everything.

One last try
"Your analysis assumes that private sector use of resources is always superior..."

It's no assumption; it's a FACT - that is the point of the socialist allocation problem. The REASON that the public sector invariably achieves inferior performance is that it is NOT an actor in the marketplace; it engages in EXTRA-market activity (the resources it gathers to engage in projects are not subject to the market).

That there are benefits of infrastructure development unrecoverable to the market is false. That land values increase around highways is incidental and not a societal benefit. The state can't "attract" investment resources except in a manner inferior to the private sector. The SOURCE of that investment has no relevance. If the state takes in foreign resources, then those resources are unavailable for additional wealth creation.

The term zero-sum-game is a misnomer, in the context you're trying to use (the availabilty of resources) that's exactly what it is. Every dollar is made unavailable to the private sector and then used less efficiently.

The truism of real estate has nothing to do with externalities. That housing values change in relation to location doesn't mean there is a societal benefit; they alter the attractiveness of one propety vs. another, but do not necessarily (or likely) add to propety values overall.

It isn't a question of "conservative" economists, but sound economic principles butressed by actual research. The difference between good economcs and bad economics, As Henry Hazlitt put it, is the difference between relying upon what is seen (in contruction work and benefuts to local urban areas) and what is not seen (the activity lost in the private sector and the eevaluation of real estate values as one area becomes more attractive in relation to another).

It is the assumption that the state CAN use resources more efficiently that has been disproven.

F1etch
Now you have entered into the land of pure ideology. There are many economists --probably most--who would disagree with you.


Sigh.
"Now you have entered into the land of pure ideology."

You're projecting. Certainly, there ARE (Keynsian) economists who disagree and believe that goevernmental expenditure can be stimulative. I never calimed otherwise. Contrary to your assumption, however, they are a rapidly shrinking minority. As with any science, theories must conform to the real world.

The law of gravity would not have been of much use if objects simply flew off into space. Over time, theories and scientific laws are evaluated to see if the functioning of the real world conforms to the theory. Time after time after time the research indicates, without exception, that (a) government cannot possibly operate as efficiently as the market, (b) government cannot stimulate the economy via expenditures, and (c) any economic act must involve the resources available at THAT MOMENT - a fixed amount - which are therefore unavailable to other uses.

The issue of externalities IS subject to debate. This is why I did not say that they don't exist or that they cannot be sunstantial. What I said was that there was "no evidence" that they were "large" and pointed out the difference between external benefits in the aggrgate and shifting preferences - that, all other things being equal, increased property values in one area are often (usually) offset by a general decrease in values elsewhere because it is not an alteration of aggregate demand for property.

The faith in government in the face of overwhelming real world evidence is NOT economics, but ideology. *I* am not the wone engaging in that. I am merely trying to present the economic realities as they have been established.

Good day.
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