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Sunday, August 24, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gun "Rights" Vs. Freedom
by Steve Chapman
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Supporters of the right to keep and bear arms have long recognized the value of firearms for the defense of life, liberty and property. But in Florida, a perverse conception of the 2nd Amendment has produced the opposite effect: The cause of gun rights is being used to attack property rights.

In 1987, Florida wisely affirmed personal freedom by letting law-abiding citizens get permits to carry concealed weapons. But this year, the legislature decided it was not enough to let licensees pack in public places. They also should be allowed to take their guns into private venues -- even if the property owner objects.

The "take your guns to work" law says anyone with a conceal-carry permit has a legal right to keep his gun locked in his car in the company parking lot. Until recently, companies had the authority to make the rules on their own premises. But when it comes to guns, that freedom is defunct.

The National Rifle Association says any corporation that forbids firearms in its parking areas is violating the 2nd Amendment. That may sound like a promising argument, since the Supreme Court recently struck down a Washington, D.C., handgun ban as an infringement on the constitutional guarantee. It's not.

Robert Levy, the Cato Institute lawyer who participated in the successful challenge of the Washington ordinance, says the Florida law "has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment." The Constitution, he notes, is a limit on government power, not a constraint on what private individuals or corporations may do.

A municipal government may not forbid guns to everyone on the territory under its control. But, as far as the Constitution is concerned, a private property owner certainly can.

A federal court recently upheld the law, but not because of the Bill of Rights. It said that "the constitutional right to bear arms restricts the actions of only the federal or state governments or their subdivisions, not private actors," and noted that the NRA "has been unable to cite any authority for its position."

So the law doesn't uphold gun rights. What it does do is infringe on property rights. The Florida Chamber of Commerce makes the obvious argument that there is no right "to have a gun in your car on someone else's property" (my emphasis). But the law tells company owners they have no control over workers who insist on bringing deadly weapons onto their premises.

Conceal-carry licensees complain that if they can't keep their guns in their cars, they will have no protection on their way to and from work. That's true. But what about employees who walk, bike or take the bus? Since the law doesn't give them the right to take their guns into the workplace, they have to leave them at home. Should the state force companies to let workers carry pistols into the factory, office or day-care center?

This is not a place where the government should substitute its judgment for that of the property owners. One lawyer told The Bradenton Herald, "I have clients that have to carry out terminations. Sometimes that termination is volatile. A lot of places have a policy where they walk the terminated employee to his car. What if you walk the guy to his car that has a gun? I wouldn't want to be that supervisor."

Given that crimes by permit holders are exceedingly rare, the employers who want to ban guns may be running from shadows. But decisions about their safety, and that of their customers and employees, should be theirs to make.

For some people, being temporarily deprived of a firearm creates great anxiety. But for those with a strong aversion to guns, working at a company that allows weapons in cars has the same effect. In a free society, both sets of employees can solve the problem with a simple expedient: exercising their liberty to find a company whose policies suit their preferences.

For the NRA to demand that guns be allowed in every company lot is just as oppressive as it would be for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence to insist they be prohibited in every company lot. When gun-rights advocates oppose the use of government power to suppress firearms, they are advancing freedom. When they use government power to dictate to private companies, they are harming it.

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Very interesting column

This raises a fascinating issue. I have to agree with the author. Using government force to make companies allow employees to have guns in their cars parked in an employer's lot is just as wrong as.....say...... forcing bar owners to ban smoking in their privately-owned businesses to accomodate the "rights" of non-smokers to not be bothered by the smell of smoke.

Funny how liberals only seem to able to make this kind of thing work one way.


So. Here's my proposal for a compromise. We'll let the owners of the private property make the final decision on what behavior's allowed on their own premises.... in both cases.

They can disallow guns in cars AND allow smoking in their establishments.

Hoplophobia as a public health menace
--
I cannot disagree with Mr. Chapman's argument that government cannot lawfully (and therefore should not) compel the owners of private property to allow visitors - including employees - to carry on their property items which the property owners for whatever reason consider hazardous or even mildly disquieting.

However, this having been said, state governments now *DO* require that employers as well as property owners operating places of "public access" post certain notices, even if they only amount to signs and maps designating fire exits and evacuation plans.

So let the state of Florida require of these employers explicit public notice that they are deliberately and purposefully denying their employees and visitors the right to peacefully and unaggressively carry upon their persons any privately owned personal firearms with which these individuals may have armed themselves for the purpose of defense against assault.

Let the employers otherwise publicly commit themselves to full responsibility for the personal safety of each employee and visitor in the event of violent assault on the employer's property, and indemnify these individuals against the consequences of disarmed helplessness.

In other words, make these employers publish the fact that they are deliberately creating a health hazard in the workplace, and explicitly acknowledge their accountability for any adverse consequences of such a policy.


If the Pointy-Haired Boss is afraid that Dilbert is going to shoot him to death (as he may well have reason to fear), it is appropriate for the responsible officers of civil government to oblige him to make his position absolutely and inescapably clear to everyone who steps into the Pointy-Haired Boss' domain.




=====
"An armed society is a polite society."

-- Robert A. Heinlein

Mr. Chapman
I hear what you are saying, but the ONLY reason that most companies and corporations have bothered to ban guns on their property is because the laws and the courts have imposed financial liability on them for any incident that occurs on their property. In other words, their rights are already being violated.

Chalk this legislation up to the principle that some government intervention necessitates more government intervention. As long as government creates a burden on gun owners like this, it must pass more regulation to make up for it.

BrianR
I agree, but only AFTER legislation and tort law have been reformed to release companies from the unjust liability they have for the actions of human beings acting of their own free will outside of their capacity as employees.

Yeah, Wendy

Actually, I was more interested in making a point about how it's okay to regulate business owners' decision-making power when it's a liberal/PC goal that's being achieved -- "second-hand smoke" -- but all of a sudden a different standard applies when something un-PC -- guns -- is involved.


Missing the point
In a several different scenarios for law enforcement around the country the interior of a persons car has been recognized as the auto owners personal private property. If the police have to recognize it as a private space so should the employers. The employer may own the asphalt the car is sitting on, like the street is a public space, but the interior is the owners sanctum... like a room in their home. This law not an infringement of property rights but an assertion of them.

In today's gun hostile culture this is also an assertion of employee rights over the wishes of some corporate cultures. Probably a thing that makes some corporate minded "conservatives" who write for this site nervous. If the execs in these companies feel threatened then they would be within their rights to hire armed guards or carry themselves. As soon as the person removes the firearm from their auto they are in ACTUAL violation of the property rights of the owner and can then be dealt with appropriately.

Gun rights ARE freedom
One easy answer is not to work for or do business with anyone who violates our second amendment rights.I agree that property owners have rights.So doesn't everyone else.I won't have anything to do with anyone who would violate any of my rights.On that note I would encourage everyone to boycott Disney.They will not allow law abiding citizens to carry on their property.

I disagree, Whit

The power of the state is in many cases subject to limitations that don't adhere to private employers. A private employer may require drug testing as a requirement of employment, for instance, but the police need probable cause to subject a suspect to that same testing.

The government may not censor free speech, but a private employer certainly can. Just ask the radio announcers who've lost their jobs for on-air statements their employers deemed objectionable.

The employee is perfectly free to exercise his rights elsewhere from the property of the employer, and perfectly free to quit working for any employer with whom he doesn't agree as to company policy. But he has NO right to any particular job.


What is "private property"?
It seems a stretch to differentiate between private and public property when the concept of private property itself is flawed. If we can actually "own" property, how is it possible for the government to confiscate said property if taxes on same are in default? Doesn't this make all property merely "rented"? If said property can be confiscated at the point of a gun and sold for "taxes," how can we say we "own" it? Isn't the taxing agency the actual owner, and the "owner" of record merely a sharecropper/ caretaker?

Constitutional rights
So if the employer does not provide armed security for its employees they are violating there right to defend themselves against armed robbers or an Irate employee who was fired. CRIMINALS DONT PAY ATTENTION OR OBEY ANY LAW. The Constitution says I have the right to keep and bear arms. THERE ARE NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS. When someone comes in and shoots me at my place of work my family will own that company when the law suit is over. The Employer has to protect you or allow you to protect yourself.

Answer to dugga
Private property is merely an illusion in the USA. We have degenerated from a republic (Article 4, Section 4) well into democracy and have spiraled further downward toward fascism.

Democracy allows me to vote for the government to use force (IRS) to take your money and put it into my pocket.

Fascism allows private ownership of businesses and other property so long as government sets all the important policies and procedures. Then, when the inevitable disasters occur, the fascist voters and their representatives blame the nominal but nevertheless "evil" owners.

God save our republic. The 5-4 Supremes never will.

BrianR
Your proposed compromise is fatally flawed. It is logical and makes sense. The left wing and right wing fascists among us want to control everything according to a plan that meets neither of those standards.

For other examples, freedom of choice does not extend to the freedom for parents to choose a school for their children (vouchers). And many would prefer it if freedom of speech did not include the freedom to burn a flag in protest of a government policy.

guns versus smoking
The smoking comparison does not work. The smoking in the workplace bans are for the benefit of the health of the employees, specifically, waiters and bar tenders. Employees have a right to a safe and healthy work place. The ability to keep a gun in your car does not infringe on the safe and healthy work place. It actually may increase safety for some workers.
If the property has a guard shack, then limits can be placed on those who have to pass the guard shack. If the parking lot is public access, then civil rights can not be limited unless there is a check point to restrict such rights to ALL persons entering the parking lot at ALL times.
The Supreme Court has ruled that free speech and free press (not commercial speech or press) can not be limited in a public access parking lot. This case was successfully argued by San Jose attorney Phil Hammer, the husband of Susan Hammer, the San Jose mayor whose re-election I was opposing by leaf-letting parking lots. I carried her husband's Supreme Court ruling in my pocket. Look up Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins. It permits the states under the doctrine of federalism to grant broader - but not narrower - rights to their citizens under a state constitution than may be required by the U. S. Constitution.
Another point is one of rights. All rights held by a corporation are granted by the state by statute. The U. S. Constitution recognizes and grants rights to citizens. The individuals' rights supersede the rights of the corporation. Re: Disney As Disney controls access to all of their parking lots, Disney can limit these rights.

Meangene, again I disagree

If the employer posts or makes public the policy that they don't allow private firearms on their property, they have put the employees on alert as to a condition of their employment. The employer is under no obligation to protect the employees from deranged gunmen, not in any way. The employee is making the choice to accept the employment under that condition.

In general, a company is not liable for any happenstance which can't reasonably be expected to occur. They're under NO obligation to try to protect their employees from every possible bad thing that may happen to them on the premises.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that armed nutjobs are going to be attacking unarmed employees at places of employment as a common occurrence, and therefore one for which the employer should have made special provisions to address.


LOL, "poorgrandchildren"!

Thanks!


Sorry, Mark

You're trying to have it both ways. The smoking analogy does, indeed, work, because it's exactly the same principal. The employees have no "right" to any specific job, and if they don't want to work in a place where smoking's allowed by the owners, they're perfectly free to seek employment elsewhere. It's not government's position or constitutional power to TELL a business owner who he "has to" hire.

You try to couch it as a "health" issue, but the moment you do THAT, the same argument can be made against guns as a "health" issue, too.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

You also talk about a "public access" parking lot, which is completely off-point, because the issue at hand is about parking in employee parking lots, which are NOT "public access". The employees could certainly go off-premises and find their own parking elsewhere, too.


Fear the Government
Without guns, there is no freedom. As overreaching as the current government is, no one need believe for one second that we would retain the few rights that we do were we disarmed. Why does anyone care if a responsible citizen has a gun in a vehicle in a parking lot? There is nothing to fear from this person. There is much to fear from the government.

For those who don't like
the "smoking" analogy -- and it constantly amazes me at how many self-professed "conservatives" LIKE smoking bans -- here's another for you.

It's perfectly legal for you to drink alcoholic beverages if you're of legal age.

Is it okay to have a few at work? Say... just before you start up that 100 ton metal press? Or decant that acid into the metal wash? Or get on the phone to make that sales call?

Your employer has no say in the matter?

Mark
ou are proving my point that the USA is degenerating into fascism. The bar owner is prohibited from allowing smoking because fascists have set the policies and procedures for his "private" enterprise (but only because they know what is best and care so much). When fascists meddle enough, his business will have serious problems, but they will say that whatever goes wrong is his fault because he is the "evil" owner.

Examples, S&Ls, big oil, mortgage companies, real estate brokers, real estate developers, barbers, beauticians, lawyers, doctors, etc.

Slogan of American fascists: "There ought to be a law..."

BrianR -- Your Compromise
Now, you KNOW your compromise will NEVER work.

It involves surrendering Power over to the private citizen.

These days, that's practically UnAmerican.

[[sigh]]

OH MY!

Chapman's column...

I read this shortly after midnight, and was upset.

There were NO POSTS at that time. I debated screaming at the columnist about his asininity, and was glad I did not! Oh Yes! I was upset.

I am glad I waited, because several rational posters, said many of the same things I believe, and in a fashion I could not muster at the time.

Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen.

I did agree with the 'right' of companies to set rules. I did not agree that companies could defy workers the right of 'Self Defense'.

We have all heard news accounts where employees were denied the possession of firearms on Company Property, and of the many that have died because of these rules. We have also heard of a few cases where private citizens retrieved their guns from their vehicles, and limited the carnage.

Still, if we look at all the asinine restrictions placed upon us after the demise of OUR REPUBLIC, we Must feel agitated or be brain-dead!

I would guess that at least 90% of what our present Government compels us to do, is un-constitutional.

The last three employers I have had, ruled: "No firearms in the parking lot".
I have defied that ruling because I WILL NOT BE DEFENSELESS.

I have had a firearm on my person, within reach, or in my vehicle for most of the last 45 years.

I have on a few occasions been very happy for this.

~~~

BrianR, we have conversed before, and you are focused. I disagree with you to the extent that you imply we should be protected from our own stupidity. i.e. Getting drunk and running machinery... please remove this one from the gene pool. :-)

~~~

I'm a Rat. I work in the city. Somewhere in Indiana.
It is cloudy today, and very humid. I sweat.
I work the night watch, out of Engineering. No partner. I am all alone. Problems, I can't solve, I am dead.

(Kudos to Jack Webb)



Ratas y Ratones

The Government already places
draconian restrictions on business. It is illegal for you to not hire, or fire an individual based on race, creed, or religious affiliation (and in some of the bluer states, sexual orientation. ADA regulations place a tremendous financial burden on small business by mandating expensive retrofits to "mainstream" the handicapped, even if that business has already made reasonable accomodations. Some states/cities are already banning the use of trans fats, thus telling a restarant what they can and can't serve. So to say that a commecial property owner has absolute and complete control over their public access property is laughable.

Classic conundrum
Where do we draw the line between 2 "rights"? Namely the right to self defense and the right to control the use of one's real estate. I think Ratas and Whit the little come closest to expressing my idea of where to draw the line.

Refreshing
Its refreshing to see 2nd Amendment rights take their proper place in this society such that conservatives (who like Chapman support these rights) can point out instances where a one-sided assertion of these rights violates other rights.

My old employer banned guns in cars
in the parking lot. Much as I hate it, I will have to go with the author here. I agree that the liberals and government are hypocritical of this issue as BrianR says, but that doesn't take away the owner's right to set the rules for his property.

The only question I have is whether or not the interior of the car becomes the owner's property by being driven into the lot. I suspect that if it were case of something else other than guns that the owner wanted to ban that the government would override the owner. What if it were campaign literature for a liberal Democrap?

Guns in Cars
Under Florida law your vehicle is an extension of your home ergo an employer canot enforce a rule prohibiting firearms (or anything else) in your car. Especially since only permit holders are covered. As for the angry employee who shoots his boss: someone out to commit murder is not going to be deterred by a "no guns allowed" rule.

A real compromise
Let anti-second amendment employers post their signs at the entrances to employee parking lots, but not be allowed to search the cars without probable cause.

A few observations--Part 1
1. The rationale for prohibiting firearms in cars on company parking lots is false. It is based on the same nonsense as any gun control law: "IMAGINE what would happen if...." The reality is that CCW holders simply don't commit much crime. In fact, their crime rate is far lower than the population at large. In some cases, they have saved lives. Net result: it is better to let them have guns in their cars.

2. Criminals and unstable employees are going to have guns no matter what the employer rules require or prohibit. Therefore, the rules do the least good where they might be most needed.

3. One specific fear is especially absurd: the fired employee is walked out to his car by the supervisor, who is at risk via angry fired employee having a gun available in his car. Most fired employees have advance clues that they will be fired, so if they are actually that unstable and angry, they will surely intentionally bring a gun on that day NO MATTER WHAT THE RULES ARE! The rules cannot help in that scenario unless the employer does a thorough search of every car, EVERY DAY. Not a chance.

4. Some here have claimed that an employee parking lot is not a public facility but entirely private, but if there are no controls on that lot (which is true in most cases), it is IN FACT accessible to the public.

5. If the employer can set restrictive rules on employee self-defense en route in order to prevent workplace violence, they can also logically prohibit employees from even owning a firearm at any time or place (just as some employees are now prohibiting smoking even at home). Absurd and dictatorial.

Continued in Part 2

The gun...
...is your property, in a car or on your person.

Persons should not be violated. An employer has no intrisic right to dictate behaviors that do not directly affect the performance and fulfillment of job duties. If the gun interferes with the performance of the job duties, then it should be discussed.

This is not about employers or private property rights of a "company". It is about the rights of an individual to excersize their Constitutional right to bear arms, which "shall not be infringed." I see no delineated right in the Constitution that says "...shall not be infringed, unless somebody else is a 'fraidy cat."

How ludicrous.

Signs be damned. I am armed. Ask me and I'll tell you, but expect an honest answer. But agian, beware... I AM armed.

I really don't care
I really don't care what some posted sign says.
My family's protection comes first.
I have a legal right to protect myself and my family. Some dipwick lawyer for some dipwick company is not going to prevent me from carrying and parking because of some sign.

I have to agree...
with Chapman. There is no intrinsic right to bring firearms onto private property, including a company parking lot. Even in the old Wild West, saloon keepers could make their own rules: "No Guns Allowed."

Come on people
Sure, all the purported reasons for banning guns in the parking lot are specious, however, employers have a right to ban anything they wish on their property. Just because their property may be accessible by the public does not make it public property. Saying that it is public property because the public can access it is like saying you can not control your driveway because the “public” can access it.

If workers find their employers restrictions onerous they can always seek employment elsewhere.

"private" parking lots
Parking lots are hardly "private",and anyone can wander around them to burgle cars,attack women,carjack,etc. "No guns in the "workplace" " policies are simply an attempt to define parking lots as the "workplace",and to prohibit LEGAL items inside one's own private property,their private auto.But,as others have mentioned,no policy is going to stop or prevent a person intent on shooting people from having a gun in their car or even bringing it INTO the real workplace. Also,often,the business does not even own the parking lot,or the car belongs to an employee of a subcontractor.

2d amendment
Speaking of terminated employees, what about the USPS former employees who "go postal". Did the rules apply?
Jim B.

Don't forget Catbert!!
Catbert (evil H.R. Director) and Mordac (preventer of I.T. services) have even more to fear!!

-Ray
NRA Life Member

An individual right IS an individual rig
Let us look at the logic.
1. There is an individual right to keep and bear arms.
2. The federal government cannot strip you of the right without Due process after a disqualifing event.
3. A State government cannot strip you of the right without Due process after a disqualifing event.
4. The State and Federal governments cannot empower individuals to strip you of the right without Due process after a disqualifing event.

If they do son then they are "smurfing" (letting the little guy do what they don't have the power to do)

HEY DOESN'T

This nostril flaring, hand wringing, whine belong over on the Dailey KOS?

Rights
The presence of a gun in the trunk of my car does not in any way effect the property owners possession or use of that property. When I enter that property, I may well have agreed to may things but I did not renounce my citizenship.

Depends on the definition
"I don't think it's reasonable to expect that armed nutjobs are going to be attacking unarmed employees at places of employment as a common occurrence, and therefore one for which the employer should have made special provisions to address."

It all depends on your definition of "reasonable" and "common," I suppose. Also "special provisions:"

"Even in the old Wild West, saloon keepers could make their own rules: "No Guns Allowed."

Yes, and even in the old Wild West, those saloonkeepers kept a sawed-off shotgun under the bar.

Apparently, the "Libertarian" employer says: "It is my policy to strip you of your RKBA on my property; furthermore I am taking no responsibility ("special provisions") for your personal safety. You don't like it, find another place to work."

Which may help to explain why no one is seriously discussing the chances of the Libertarian Party in November.

And furthermore
Am I the only person who noticed the headline? Gun "Rights" [derisive quotes SC's, or at least TH's] VERSUS [emphasis mine] Freedom?!?!

STUPID CAN'T BE CURED...
The point is that if a city (DC) bans handguns and I am traveling from VA to MD via DC, I am automatically either denied my right to carry OR I am automatically in violation of the law. Same with these companies. Just like cops can't search my car without just cause - because it's MY property - those companies don't need to search my car for no reason. They have agreed to let me park my personal vehicle there in order to work for them - as long as I am legal and mature there should be no problem. And, IF the stated "reason" is to keep folks from hurting other folks, then the rule doesn't accomplish that. If I am intending to hurt someone at that plant your silly rule isn't going to stop that. Breaking rules and violating criminal statutes are what make criminals, criminals. And WHILE you are having absolutely NO bearing on the criminals, you are violating my right to protect MYSELF and others from those criminals. Nice goin, Panzyazz.

Defining Infringment...
Answer.com:
- Overstepping another's protected right.

Until I see a Constitutional Ammendment that states unequivocally that in some way, my right to bear arms shall be infringed for whatever reason, I will continue to exercise my right.

There is an undergirding order of the bill of rights, 9th ammendment notwithstanding.

The first of the rights is the freedom of speech and assembly. The second of these rights is keep and bear arms, which allows us the protection and means to enforce the first of our rights.

The rest of our bill of rights undergird our second, as our second undergirds our first.

In this day and age, it's argument's like Chapman's that degrade and erode our actual rights. It make's one think that Chapman might have a dog in the race... yes?

Guns in cars at workplace
Just pass a law declaring that a person's car is an extension of his home, no matter where it is parked. If the gun is locked in the car, it is not "on the employer's property" but instead "at the employee's home".

Dave
I agree. I carry a pistol in my truck everyday. It is kept in the side pocket of the driver's side door.

I have to drive through some bad areas to get to my office. Car jackings happen a lot in some of the areas.

I do not take the pistol into the office. I will be damned if my employer can tell me I have no right to keep my pistol in my truck. It is my truck and my pistol.

I do not go around bragging that I have a pistol in my truck. I do not threaten or fight with my fellow workers. My pistol is for self defense. Do n ot tread on me!!!

Bubba


The law

The view of the employer having control over private property (IE over the contentys of your car ) They might not like your political bumper sticker or the 6 pack of beer (ou might get drunk)







A simple remedy
Next time a crime is commited on some company property and the victim is a CCL holder who obeyed, albeit unwillingly, company policy forbiding CCL or any other possesion of firearms, simply name the company in a lawsuit for damages for not protecting the victim.
A few of these pop up and I'm sure something of a compromise would be worked out between CCL holders and companies.

Some of post was dropped
Contuld be debated.rol of private property (interior of car) co

one last try
my insurance company considers my vehicle an extension of my home, why can't the company?

Will you accept responsibility for me
Any employer that restricts an employee's right to keep a firearm locked in his / her vehicle in a private parking lot is saying to that employee "I am not concerned about the possibility of you becoming a victim of a crime to and from work". My question to that employer, who threatens termination of employement, are prepared to explain to my widow that I was unable to defend myself because of your company policy? Anyone who takes the time to become a CHL holder deserves to be treated as a responsible law-abiding member of a polite society.

The reason...
The reason that companies have specifically prohibited firearms on their premises by employees is to avoid any liability for the actions of employees on company property.

That being said, the States should probably take steps to strip companies of such liabilities concerning employees who choose to exercise their Second Amendment rights while on the job.

If companies could not be held liable and were exempt from such liability concerning an employee and their personally owned firearms, then firearm prohibition laws at work would largely evaporate.

Honest gun owners who obtain concealed carry permits or choose to keep a firearm in their car, simply do not commit crimes or commit reckless acts with a firearm.

I am one of the top ten NRA Membership Recruiters in the United States at the moment and I will continue to stand and fight for the NRA and defend their actions.

If businesses were stripped of liability concerning their employees' personally owned firearms, the NRA would not have stepped into this fight in the first place.

If employers continue to prohibit firearm ownership on their property and an employee gets attacked, robbed, raped, assaulted or murdered while on company property, could we then hold them liable for depriving us of our self defense rights?

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com
NRA Membership Recruiter

Hoplophobic
The Florida law only applies to public parking lots, and the rights of people to defend themselves while driving to and from work. The parking lots are already open to the public, and regulated as to handicap accessibility, etc. I haven't, and now will not visit Disney, but six flags certainly gives me no problem as a visitor when I leave my handgun in my vehicle. The rights of the property owner is infringed a thousand ways to start with, and when that property is opened up to the public for business, then the infringement is ten-fold. Shut up about where I can and can not carry. This issue is really about employee rights, not much different than minimum wage, safe work place, etc. Steve, you missed the boat on this one. The Constitution is about we the people, not the corporations.

Doc Liberty
Which "Wild West" are you referring to--the real one where individuals had the right to defend themselves or the one created by Hollywood where there were constant gunfights that were usually settled by government law enforcement (the marshall or sheriff)?

Qparker
I really don't understand why you got your knickers in a twist, these are some of the best comments (on both sides) I have seen on TH in a long time. Michigander, with all due respect the situation you describe meant that they had weapons on their person and as such were subject to the saloon owners rules. I think after reading the comments I have to come down on the side of the opinion that the interior of your car is the same as your home. It can't be searched w/o probable cause and we certainly would scream if bumper stickers were outlawed. I personally am nervous about leaving a weapon in a car that I am far away from, but that's just me.

Who's Rights are in the Constitution?
The last time I looked, the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written intentionally to limit government intrusion upon individual rights. No where does it provide for businesses to be surrogate intruders.

The term, "Law Abiding Citizens", by definition, implies that no employee will use a legally concealed gun to harm or threaten anyone in his/her place of work unless in the defense of life. Considering how many times in recent years we have all read about the stereo-typed disgruntled former employee of this or that business walking into that work place & proceeding to kill as many people as possible, common sense would seem to provide ample reason for having armed, law-abiding employees on site to either prevent or contain such an attack.
All CWP holders either are, or should be well aware of when lethal force may or may not be used in the defense of life, and either are, or should be well practiced in the safe use of their personal firearms.

As for the comfort level of employers and fellow employees: concealed means "concealed". Legally, a weapon may only be carried in such a way so as not to be obvious to anyone around the carrier. Ie: the law-abiding carrier does not reveal his/her possession, giving no one any reason to be concerned.

Of course, if the whole issue of concealed carry in the workplace becomes too sticky, it would seem to me that an individual's right to defend his/her life in the event of an imminent lethal threat far outweighs any business association seeking to prevent exercising that right. In areas of high crime, the importance of life far outweighs a particular job in a particular place.

No Different
The law discussed in this article is no different than laws which prevent businesses from firing employees who refuse to dispense certain medications, or who dress like those of the opposite gender.

The rights of businesses
The rights of businesses in a free society are exactly those of a private individual. This is also true regarding guns.

For example, if a salesman shows up at your door to demonstrate vacuum cleaners, you as the homeowner have every right to insist he not bring his gun into your house. What are your options? Either he could leave his gun in his car (his property, and an extension of his home), or he can give the gun to you for safekeeping, with the understanding that you will return the gun when he leaves.

With businesses, they have every right to insist you don't bring your gun into their building. They do not have the right to insist you don't keep your gun in your car.

Different types of property have different functions, and therefore different limitations with regard for the law. Inside your threshhold, you are essentially a king in your castle; you can set whatever standards of behavior you wish for your guests, so long as they are not immoral or illegal. Although you also own the walkway up to your front door, it is understood that you will allow strangers to walk on it until you determine the cause for their visit. Thus, your property rights of your walkway is conditional to some extent. However, you have the right to insist on some reasonable standards for people, even when they are just on your walkway; they can't, for example, camp there overnight without your permission, just as you can't park your vehicle in a business' parking lot forever.

BrianR, Interesting Though
I'm wondering how search and seizure plays into this. An individual has a right to be secure in their person and property. Courts have allowed some restrictions on this but the principle is still that a person is secure in their person.

So if I choose to put a gun in my trunk and drive onto private property, what trumps what? Can they demand that I open the trunk for their inspection? Could they tear a car apart looking for a possible hidden weapon? Where is the balance between competing interests?




Interesting discussion; (Part 1)

I knew it would be.

In a free society, the rights of one group will inevitably clash with the rights of another; that's the dynamic tension of liberty at work.

In the case of private property, the rights of the property owner are superior. He doesn't have to let someone onto his property, and if he wants to impose conditions for entry to the property he can freely do so.

Those who maintain that a private employee parking lot is somehow "public" simply because entry is easily accessible are off the mark. Let's say that, as in most cases, employees have a company sticker on their car that allows parking. Try to park your car there as a non-employee without the sticker. Don't be shocked when you come back to find your car towed away.

We all enjoy our rights, but when doing so also by default accept the consequences thereof. Your freedom of speech doesn't allow you to call your boss a schmuck and still expect to keep your job. That freedom is curtailed when you walk in that company gate. For that matter, it doesn't allow you to commit slander or libel, either, without suffering consequences. Your freedom of choice is likewise limited: ever see those signs outside movie theaters that say "no outside food or drink allowed"? You're a paying patron, but your freedom is still limited. Of course, your right to choose still remains in that you can "choose" to find a theater that will allow you to bring in your home-cooked popcorn.


Part 2

People who count the money in casinos aren't allowed to carry cash on their person, and are subject to personal search when leaving the counting room. Obviously, any money on them is the casino's, and they'll be fired immediately if any is found when they're searched. Is that a violation of personal privacy? Somehow unconstitutional?

There are MANY circumstances under which people temporarily yield their "rights" as a condition of their employment... because on the employer's own property, his rights supercede the employee's. Rightfully so.

Where's the logic?
Am I missing something in the correlation between guns in a car and smoking?

If a company, a private homeowner or a government entity prohibits smoking does that mean an individual can’t carry cigarettes on their property? I can understand that the USE of cigarettes can be banned but HAVING cigarettes in ones possession or in a parked vehicle is a totally different matter. If the same logic would apply to guns an employer could establish a rule that prohibits shooting on their property.

Can you explain why I’m not a hazard, threat or prohibited from carrying concealed when in a public place but when I enter a government building or school I instantly become crazed nut job with the intent to commit a violent act?

GO FIGURE……………

Elko.mike

Bear in mind, the Constitution is a limit on GOVERNMENT power, not the power of the individual.

Here's an example: I'm a licensed PI here in California. Rules of evidence and testimony concerning Miranda and the Fourth Amendment concerning the need for warrants DO NOT apply to me in the course of my investigations. As long as I don't violate any laws, I'm perfectly free to search anyone's premises, and anything I find or learn can be used in evidence at trial, as long as I'm not working as "an agent of the government". Any testimony I elicit from witnesses can be entered in evidence, and I don't have to give anybody a Miranda warning.

I'm NOT bound by the same Constitutional strictures as the police are.

So, for example, if I break into someone's home and toss the place, though I'll be subject to charges for breaking and entering, my evidence would still be admissible, even though I didn't have a warrant; and if I could show exigent circumstances, I wouldn't even face the criminal charges.

Barring exigent circumstances, if the cops break into a home without a valid warrant, any evidence will be excluded from being presented at trial. And for the cops, the definitional bar of "exigent circumstances" is much higher than for civilians.

In other words, as a civilian I don't have nearly as many legal and constitutional hurdles to overcome as do the cops. Rightfully so.

"Good bad guy"

You should read the Heller decision, then. Scalia explains it very well.


Gun "Rights" Vs. Freedom
One reasonable solution to having concealed weapon permit holders pack heat to and from work would be for the employer to provide lockers at the property entrance so that weapons are not brought on the premises. A metal detector and security guards prior to entering the inner areas of the company would seem a no-brainer and already normal procedure in companies doing business with sensitive government programs.

That's true, "O"

That would be a reasonable compromise, IF the employer is willing to make it -- it's still HIS decision, after all -- and also willing to absorb the additional cost involved in providing the lockers, detectors, personnel, etc.

Why should he, if he simply doesn't want guns on his premises? That's his right to decide that.

Maybe he IS anti-gun. That's ALSO his right.


BrianR


Good suggestion, do you have a link where the decision can be found?

I assume that the provisions in the Constitution relating to both guns and cigarettes will be clarified.

You bet, "GoodBadGuy"

Here's the link to Heller: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07slipopinion.html

That links to SCOTUS's page of slip opinions. The third hyperlink down downloads a PDF of the entire opinion. It's great reading, really! I saved a copy on my hard drive.


A few observations--Part 2
6. The problem with the employer's "parking lot property rights" is the fact that they are damaging the self-defense rights of individuals not just in the parking lot, by making it impossible for the CCW holder to commute to work while armed (which is often 1 or more total hours per day, and often including stops). Self-defense should not be such an arcane or selective right that almost no one can actually use it.

7. The reasons given for these rules are parallel to the "no guns on campus" laws. The idea that such rules can reduce violence is essentially zero. No person should be forced to give up their most important right in return for a ZERO.

8. Bad lawyers and rules can be corrected by making employers responsible--if they intend to prevent self-defense, the employers should be held liable for any crimes that occur at work AND ON THE COMMUTE. Employers inherently have greater leverage, so it is not enough to say, "just don't work for them". We don't say, "As long as it's on private property, you can rape virgins and perform ritual human sacrifices and conduct fraud."

9. Discrimination is not just a matter of prima facie words, but effect. Reconstruction Era gun control laws appeared neutral, but had the effect of disarming poor, mostly black people. Quota laws go too far, but it doesn't make sense to allow people to engage in rampant invidious discrimination against all minorities, or all women, or all religious groups for no supportable reason.

10. Note that the companies have numerous easy alternative solutions, whereas the individual does not. If they felt that their parking lot is overrun with guns, they could fence the internal facility and thereby separate it from the outside parking lot where people store their firearms. This conflict of rights could be resolved with little danger or expense to the company, and great benefit for the employees.

elko.mike
Most private companies that ban weapons in cars have a sign up that says by enteringtheir property you have agreed to be searched if they deem it necessary. It is an implied contract.

Good ole Bad Guy

I had said earlier that my old company banned weapons in the cars. It also banned possion of cigarettes in one several of the buildings. You see it was against the rules to smoke in those buildings and they kept finding cigarette butts. So they banned cigarettes in the building totally. If you were caught with cigarettes in those buildings it was grounds for termination.


Another example of
the superiority of the rights of the property/company owner:

In the course of my career, I've had many clients who jealously guard their company's proprietary information. Industrial espionage is one of their major concerns.

To gain access to their facilities, one signs a confidentiality agreement (which limits one's right of Free Speech).

There are also signs on the doors clearly stating that all people entering the premises are subject to search, including any and all of their possessions, such as briefcases, etc.

Also, signs prohibit carrying onto the premises things such as cameras, cell phones, laptop computers, or any other recording device.

How many "rights" does everyone give up to "enter the premises"? Quite a few.


BrianR et al
Leaving aside the "shouting fire" argument, the gov't restricts free speech all the time; ask any serviceman, any pre-adolescent boy who tells a girl she is pretty [or ugly] or who wears a Christian T-Shirt, any cop who calls a dirtbag criminal "a dirtbag" to his face, anyne with a bumper sticker -- political or no -- or even a Dilbert cartoon in a gov't workplace, anyone speaking out against any mandatory gov't diversity program while in its classroom, and finally, examine how hate-crimes are worded and then how they are enforced and who is targeted for prosecution.

There is free speech and then there is "free speech".

BTW, this is not meant to be trollish or even judgmental, merely an observation -- gov't is one of the worst violators of personal rights.

Link to Heller
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07- 290.pdf

BTW, I do not agree with a lot of scalia's reasoning in here. I think he compromised with Kennedy too much and opened the door to unlimited restrictions on gun ownership while not even answering the question of incorporation.

Vic


Did they allow cigarettes to be left in a car on their property?

If yes, that would prevent smoking while on the way to and from work.

SORRY BOUT DAT, Vic!!!


I pushed the go button before engaging brain. Should have been prohibit, not allow……

Farshooter

This isn't an issue about what the government does. The issue is about the conflicting rights in the private sector, between individuals and their employers.

That having been said, there's absolutely no doubt that you're correct in that "free speech" isn't "free" at all anymore, and government is taking a very active hand in curtailing it. Try to hang a pinup calendar in your locker in a fire station and see what happens.


For BrianR
Your analogs are not on point.

When you cite a casino that doesn't allow money on the person of employees who work their cashier's cage, that is a directly work-related rationale, whereas a ban on guns in cars in the parking lot is entirely unrelated, unless you believe the fantasy that "guns cause crime".

You also noted that you, as a PI, could break into my home and "toss the place" without adverse effect on the admissibility of evidence. Let's ask a question more relevant to the case at hand: If you break into my home while I am there and wrestle my gun from me, and immediately thereafter a criminal injures/kills me, would that be legal on your part, or would you be held liable for my injuries and losses? "But for your actions" I would have been able to defend myself. Same for the employer who disarms his employees for no reason. No, anti-self-defense bigotry and ignorant fantasy does not count as a valid reason. Even if not quite a 2nd Amendment violation, the liability would properly force employers to act in a reasoned manner. There is no reason to not extend liability for proximately caused injuries.

BrianR
[Chuckle] If you break into a private home and toss it here in Tennessee, nothing you find will ever appear in court because the at-home homeowner is legally empowered to use deadly force against you, without warning, and often does; your "evidence" will be removed from your body by the homeowner.

You are presumed to intend serious or grave bodily harm or death to any/all in the house and self-defense automatically comes into play.

This also applies to Dog the Bounty Hunter types.

Good Ole Bad Guy
You were allowed to smoke on site in designated areas (outside).

"Goodbadguy" and others
who seem concerned that they're being disarmed while commuting to and from work.

There's nothing that prohibits you from finding some storage facility for your gun while on your employer's premises. Find a Mailboxes, Etc or something near work and keep your gun there.

The onus is on YOU to find a way to make it work, NOT on your employer to accomodate you.


BrianR--ban on cameras etc
Were the emplyees subject to termination if the had a camera in their car, when parked in the typical semi-open-access employee lot?

I doubt it in most companies,except in the extremely rare occasions where the parking lot was specifically declared a restricted area requiring passage through a guarded gate. Even at many top secret DOD contractors, I've rarely seen that. The guards and searches are usually at the inner gate or the doors of the buildings.

BrianR
Understood. A number of comments had been posted concerning a lack of gov't violations of rights, free speech in particular. My post addressed those comments.

The "calendar" happened to me...it was on my computer and one of the ladies happened to see me change the month on the 1st. Grin

Rights
I see a lot of misconceptions by people on here as to what their “rights” under the Constitution really are. One should remember that the Constitution was originally written to designate what the authority of the FEDERAL GOV was and what was retained by the States. The bill of “rights” was added to explicitly list what the FEDERAL government could NOT do with respect to the citizens. After the 14th Amendment and the advent of the liberal courts in the 60s most of these “rights” were “incorporated” to the States as well. NOWHERE has there been a decision, or any other rational, that incorporated these rights to other private citizens which included private companies.

You do not have a “right” to say anything you want on private property.

You do not have a “right” to ignore or violate a property owner’s wishes as long as those wishes are in keeping with the law.

This entire episode started with a ban on guns in the parking lot of Walt Disney World in FL. Someone took it to court in July. A federal judge rightfully ruled in favor of Disney. The FL legislator then passed a law that said employers could not ban guns in the their parking lots. I suspect that as soon as this law works it’s way into the courts that it will be overturned as well.

Do the simple thing
Boycott all companies that ban guns.

I haven't used Conoco/Phillips66 gasoline or anything else in years. Enough people do that and behold, the policy changes.

Histrory buff and farshooter

First, to both, .... puh-leeze. If I were stupid enough to break into a house with someone inside, of course they'd be legally entitled to defend themselves and their property. If those posts were intended as anything other than attempts at humor.... well, don't give up your day jobs.

History buff, you don't want to face it, but my analogies are EXACTLY on point. They're clear illustrations of the fact that an employer's rights supercede the employee's while on the employer's property. I've listed somewhere around a dozen examples on this thread. You don't like that one? Look at any of the rest.

The employee has absolutely no "right" to his job; he serves at the pleasure of the employer, and the employer can put any conditions he wants on that employee that don't conflict with labor law.

Here's another example. Is the employee's company locker protected from the employer's opening it at will?

Nope. No warrant required. No more than email on company computers is protected "speech" in any way.

This has all been adjudicated, folks.


BrianR--Mailboxes etc?
You would trust your gun to Mailboxes etc? Despite the prohibition on private party transfers in most states, including your own?

That's pretty radical....and bad judgement on your part.

Time to rethink that bit of advice.

The only "answers" you have provided are purely theoretical, not real world. When the choice is between "safe storage" companies that don't exist and companies with unlimited rights to prevent you from even POSSESSING the means of self-defense, you are effectively saying that ordinary citizens don't have any realistic self-defense options.

History buff

Irrelevant. It's a condition of using the company's parking lot; they can do what they want.

Hey! As I wrote, you're perfectly free to store your gun at a nearby off-premises facility. Hell, park your car somewhere else.

But violate the company's rules -- his company, his rules -- and risk getting fired.

Your constitutional rights are protected from GOVERNMENT infringement, as Vic noted YET AGAIN, not from the actions of private parties.

This is really a very simple premise.


Buff, re your 1:38PM

Dude... sure, you have a self-defense option. Carry your gun all you want. Just don't expect to be hired by a company that bans them... AS IS THEIR RIGHT!

That's the simple... VERY simple ... point you don't seem to get.

YOUR rights don't have any superiority over ANYONE ELSE'S rights. The company owner has a right to hate guns, and ban them from his premises if that's what he wants to do.

If you go to a friend's house, and that friend is a gun-banner, are you going to insist he let you and your gun in his house even if he doesn't want your gun in his house?

And please try to come up with a better answer than "I wouldn't have a friend who hates guns". That would be SOOOOOOO lame.


Vic
The Bill of Rights was never meant to be all-inclusive but listed only those rights that SHALL NOT be violated by gov't.

[Forgot which founder[s] stated the above.]

Since the federal gov't is superior to state gov'ts, that concept flowed downhill.

In the Disney case, FL just needs to pass an Amendment and let that wend its way through federal court. [I agree with you on that one.]

Protecting the right to self-defense
I understand and respect the author's position, however I must side with the "to and from" work crowd. The right to life trumps all others, and closer behind that right than property is self-defense. If the weapon is secured in a vehicle, and the owner has undergone the licensing process for carrying a concealed weapon (fingerprints, background check, training), then interfering with his right to defend himself while commuting to and from his job is unconscionable. The Supreme Court has held that no right is without limits, and they can be balanced with a "compelling state interest". It is under this judicial philosophy that I believe Florida has enacted this legislation - it is indeed a "compelling state interest" to protect the right to life and self-defense.

farshooter
Not to be argumentative, but where in the Constituion does it say that the Federal Government is "superior" to State government?

It was NEVER intended for that to be the case. In the ords of the pricple writer of the Constitution in Federalist number 45.

One of the liberal courts has ruled that federal law trumps State law where there is a conflict, but first the federal law should fall under one of the "few" enumerated powers.

Personal Privacy?
Anything lawfully transported in a private vehicle should be only the concern of the owner.
Guns lawfully locked in the trunk of your car are not going to jump out and shoot anyone.
AND, They are no one's damned business but the owner of the vehicle.
My employer was always aware of the firearms in my trunk.
We met at the range frequently enough that I was also aware of the guns in his trunk!

A threat to your guns?
Check this out;
http://www.nraila.org/Obama/

BrianR--still off point
First, don't be condescending to me when you can't even accurately read my posts. When you write, "First, to both,..." you ENTIRELY missed the issue that I raised. I was raising the issue of illegal disarmament and legal/factual proximate cause. You clearly have not been able to disprove my point. Do you even understand it?

I never claimed that work-related requirements are generally (though not always) legal, but you resolutely refuse to understand the difference between a job related requirement and one that affects people who are not at work, perhaps harming them in a deadly manner. I understand your and Chapman's pure-theory libertarianism, but it creates major problems in the real world.

I could provide similar criticisms of all your examples, since none of your examples would legitimately allow employers to control my commute or home life. The path you are taking will lead to "give up all your guns at home or don't work here", since emploer's rights trump all, right?

Not one of the pathetically weak reasons for banning guns in cars in unguarded parking lots is truly work related.

If a company that produces door hinges required that its employees not own door hinges (to prevent theft, of course) or vote or engage in free speech on the grounds that everything is work-related, I'd be happy to take that case to court, because it couldn't possibly survive. Most employers are smart enough to avoid truly stupid rules that will cost them lots of money in the end. Parking lot firearms rules are of this nature, since the employees are not doing anything inimical to the profitable functioning of the company.

Same question to you, MyOp

How ya doing, BTW? Long time, no see!

You go to a friend's house, and he's a gun-banner who hates guns. He doesn't want you to bring your gun into his house, nor park your car in his driveway if there's a gun in it.

What do you do?

INSIST he let you in, AND let you park your car in his driveway with your other gun in it?

Or do you respect his wishes? Leave your gun in your car... and park your car on the street?


BrianR
Wow. Yr 1:37 was a bit over the top, no? I DID preface it with "chuckle", as I recall.

Sorry, dude...didn't mean to ruffle.

That said, I think my premise was as valid as yours...but then TN has lots of one-breadwinner families with wives who shoot. Unlike CA, they also pay attention to what their neighbors are doing and watch for people who don't belong. [That's why I moved here from East Bay.]

Encrypted Pinging alarm systems are rare but not unknown here. Wireless connection to rapid-response police is also around.

Vic
I do intend to be argumentative, and Federal law absolutely was intended generally to be subordinate to state law. However, the 5-4 DC Supremes ignore their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution whenever those oaths conflict with their collective opinion of what would be best for "We, the sheeple", or their desire to protect and defend the erroneous decisions of dead judges (precedents).

Our republic has degenerated well into democracy and is fast approaching fascism. Examples: all of the restrictions on guns and businesses being discussed in this thread. They were put in place partially due to the success of control freaks buying and stealing 50.01% of the votes--the only requirement in an unlimited democracy.

http://www.poorgrandchildren.com

Freedoms
What Mr. Chapman posits is a quandary that is faced all the time. Over the years we have developed a hierarchy of freedoms, and property rights are right in there near the top; but the very top is the right to life and the ability to defend one's life. Zoning laws stipulate how one may use one's own property, even specifying in some cases the height of fences or denying the right to put up a fence. If I were so idiotic as to live in a penthouse in Manhattan (it would also require a few more dollars than I currently possess), do you think I could keep chickens up there so as to have fresh eggs or a cow to have fresh milk? Not bloody likely! So property rights do not trump every other right. And the right of property or business owners to deny visitors or employees the right to have the means with which to defend their lives does not exist. This would, in effect, expand the territorial rights of the property owner all the way to the domicile of the employees by denying them the right to have their legally owned firearms in their possession while in transit.

BrianR--misreads my posts again
Perhaps you could show all of us where I denied that the Bill of Rights was a prohibition on government infringement of our rights.

You can't.

Try to pay attention to what I actually said, if you want to be seen as intellectually competent. Or attack someone else's posts.

Buff, for the last time
then we're done.

The employer doesn't have to have "work-related" reasons for his policy. That's not a legal requirement AT ALL.

He can have his policy as a pure whim, or to accomodate his own political point of view, and that is perfectly within HIS rights.

YOUR position is that somehow YOUR rights trump HIS rights, and that's where you're just plain dead wrong.

I also notice you didn't even TRY to answer the hypothetical I posed. Why is that?

If you think I'm being condescending now, you ain't seen nothing yet, because your position of claiming your rights are superior to anyone else's is exactly the tack the liberals take all the time when trying to jam THEIR agenda down everyone else's throats. I don't like it when EITHER side tries to use it.


Farshooter, to answer your question
No.

Because it was irrelevant. Buff, of course, was posing his same example as a "serious" response.


Vic
For the sake of argument,

- The Constitution establishes our fed gov't and is the "Supreme Law of the Land" overruling all others. It states all powers not delineated belong to the states and the people, respectively [meaning to me, "in that order"].

I read that to mean the Constitution and Bill of Rights takes precedence over all laws -- federal, state, etc. Since it takes precedence, all state Constitutions -- which establish state governments -- are inferior to it [subservient].

If you are asking for the exact words, as with many rights they do not exist there, to my knowledge -- but then I am neither a lawyer nor a constitutional scholar...just another Joe Retiree.

poorgrandchildren
I am not sure what you are arguing for. More government restriction on business or less. What I see being advanced by most of the posters is that the State government override the desire of the property owner with respect to his property.

The right to private property is recognized by the 5th amendment which has been incorporated to the States. The right to keep and bear arms without being infringed by the federal government has NOT been incorporated as Heller did not address incorporation.

In any case, even if it had addressed incorporation the right of an individual to bear arms does not supercede the right of another individual to set the rules for his property use.

I simply can not believe that conservatives are arguing against property rights here. Don’t you all see that this is another case of “collectivism”; the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few?

Yeah, Vic, mind-blowing, isn't it?

As I wrote at the top of the thread, I'm constantly amazed at how self-described "conservatives" are perfectly willing to blow off principle when their personal preferences enter the conversation, such as supporting smoking bans or, in this case, denying the property owner his right to have an anti-gun policy.


farshooter
Yes, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land. That doesn't mean that federal law automatically is superior to State law. Federal law is not Constitutional law, it is legislated law and bureaucratic regulation. Those are NOT the supreme law of the land.

As I said, federalist number 45 explains it very well.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa45.htm


BrianR--visiting a friend
As it happens, I have in fact dropped a long-time friend who let it be known that he did not respect ME because I owned firearms. If people can't respect their differences, they aren't real friends, so who needs them?

I have never required any of my friends to own guns, and I expect reciprocal tolerance.

If I otherwise respect someone, I will tolerate their irrational and ignorant fear of firearms and I might even leave my firearms at home or in the car. The better solution is to meet on neutral ground or in my home or in another friend's home or in my place of business. The law office where I work, I have carte blanche to carry, since I trained the owner.

Your Hobson's choice doesn't apply to people who are intelligent and flexible.

Brian R -- Irrelevant?
Yours, mine, or the other guy's???

And the answer from here was a resounding "Yes". I was trying to keep it light and civil.

I am retiring the field. Dirty infighting is a bit too prevalent. Which is why I seldom comment here.

BrianR
I am EXTREMELY fussy about who I call friend.
I truly believe anyone who fears firearms in the hands of honest men is either a COWARD or has a serious mental problem.
I believe people who remained Democrats after the Party was taken over by Communists are either Communists or intellectually inferior.
I have no Democrat friends or anti-gun friends.

Right to Carry States make it hard for criminals to find easy victims. This makes streets safer by forcing criminals to leave or find safer employment and serves to protect society.
Employer Rules forcing their employees to be unarmed to & from work guarantee easy unarmed victims, encourage crime and endanger society.

AND;
Only criminals and cowards fear guns in the hands of honest men.

A Free Citizen, Not a Slave
I am a free citizen, not a slave. When working outside the home I was an employee, not an indentured servant.

Neither the interior of a personal vehicle nor the interior of my clothing became my employer's property when I punched the time clock.

All that an employer buys from his employees is their time. A paycheck does not purchase their God-given, inalienable human rights.

The "logic" of declaring that an employer can dictate what property an employee may have in his car or in his pockets would also justify saying that an employer could whip his employees for poor performance or require sexual services from them and the employees would have no right to object but could only seek another job if they didn't like it.

BrianR -- do I understand correctly?
"Your freedom of speech doesn't allow you to call your boss a schmuck and still expect to keep your job."

Alright. So, I write in my journal, "My boss is a schmuck." Said journal has a lock on it (as do many guns, nowadays). I close and lock it. I further lock the journal in an aluminum carry case. I then place the case in my trunk, which is also locked. I say nothing of this to anyone.

Are you saying that I unilaterally give my employer the right to jimmy my trunk, break into my case, cut the lock strap on my journal and fire me because of what he/she (actually it) finds there ? Or do I do so only if I give said employer provocation? Or only if the property is posted with signs advising me that driving onto the property gives the employer that right?'

And is the answer the same for a firearm as for a journal under the same circumstances?

Just trying to understand...

Ri-i-i-i-i-ight, Buff!

I'm sure. It's a perfect example, you can't refute it and maintain your thesis, so you try to equivocate.

But the bottom line is what you wrote in your opening. You dropped your long-time friend. Fine. You have the same option if you don't like the gun policy where you work: find another job.


Another question
BrianR writes, "YOUR position is that somehow YOUR rights trump HIS rights, and that's where you're just plain dead wrong."

I understand your position that property rights trump RKBA, but I don't quite understand how you (and others, but you've been the most eloquent) arrived there. I'm not flaming or asking rhetorical questions, just trying to understand.

Another example,
To go with Doc Liberty's journal example.

Many people find tattoos offensive or inappropriate.

It is entirely within an employer's rights to create a dress code that permits no visible tattoos. Tattooed people could comply readily by covering their tattoos with clothing or makeup and their rights would in no way be infringed.

But an employer would not have the right to require that tattooed employees have their tattoos removed if they wanted to remain employed.

Admittedly as I'm posting this
I've only read about half of the posts so far. Most of them make sense, no matter which side of the issue they take.

BUT, one thing I haven't seen mentioned, YET, is the newest tactic of the gun control crowd. That is, failing to stop Concealed carry Laws from being enacted in the various states, they go to work on the employers and businesses, large or small, in those states to try to convince them to ban firearms on their property, including in the parking lots.

In businesses owned by people who don't like or believe in guns and/or concealed carry rights, their job is fairly simple. Just convince the owner/manager that one of the "nuts who carries a concealed weapon" will eventually lose it and use that weapon on other employees/customers.
With a lot of the anti gun crowd it doesn't take much to convince them that this not only could, but WILL happen.

Just remember what happened in Pearl, Ms. when a kid took a gun into his school and opened fire. Guns were not allowed on campus so there was no way to stop him.
BUT, the principal was a concealed carry permit holder and ran to his car, off school property, and retrieved his gun then stopped the shooter, just by pointing his gun at him.

How many of the students that were killed wouldn't have been if the principal had been able to have his gun on his person that day? Off the top of my head I'd say all of them.

I agree that property owners have the right to control what happens or is allowed on their property. But considering the new tactics the left is using to void our 2nd Amendment rights, I say that laws like the one in question are needed.

Also, the interior and trunk of MY CAR is MY property.
If my employer was to say that I may not have my weapon on me while I am working, I'll leave it in the trunk of my vehicle and the owner of the place where I work will not look in my car without my consent or a warrant.

Problem solved, anti-gun nuts new tactic defeated.

MyOp, Doc Liberty

MyOp, that's a very nice statement of pro-gun sentiment (with which I happen to agree), but is completely unresponsive to my question.


Doc, again, look at all my earlier examples. The issue boils down to: "when rights are in conflict, whose has superiority on private property? The employer who owns the property, or the employee who works at the pleasure of the employer?" It's very clearly the employer, who can set the terms of employment. The employee has the choice of either accepting or rejecting those terms, and is perfectly free to seek employment elsehwere.

As to your example of the journal: look at my earlier example of 1:02PM. If in a search of your vehicle or briefcase your journal entry was found, I'm sure you could face consequences.


Wrong Idea
I think a lot of ya’ll have the wrong idea about BrianR’s and mine’s opposition to this FL law. We are ardent 2nd amendment people, at least I know I am and I am sure BrianR is as well. We are also ardent property rights advocates. Property owners have an absolute right to use and control their property as they see fit, as long as that use conforms to law.

The 2nd amendment protects an individual’s right to keep and bear arms from federal gov infringement. The 5th amendment protects an individual’s property rights from both the federal and the State governments. A property owner’s rights are protected from other individuals by both tort law and criminal law.

BrianR
Yes, amazing

Right after 9-11,
in order to enter the parking lots of any of the skyscrapers in downtown LA, your vehicle was inspected by a security guard at the entrance. They looked in the trunk and cab of every car. They didn't need a warrant; it was a condition of allowing the car to enter the lot. If I didn't like it, I was perfectly free to find parking elsewhere, and walk to the building.

Employer's have those rights as the owners of private property, and are perfectly free to ban anything they want to ban... and enforce it by inspecting the cars if they so choose.

YOU are perfectly free to park off their property.

Oh, yeah, Vic
The debate over GCA '68 is what made me a political activist originally, back when I was in college.

NO ONE is more pro-gun than I am.

I have NEVER voted for a candidate who wasn't a staunch Second Amendment supporter. It's my litmus test.

Vic--we aren't ignoring property
I recognize that the parking lot law in Florida is not primarily a 2nd Amendment issue. What I am doing is ranking the importance of various rights. Many people understand that some rights take precedence over others. It is irrational to claim that all 10 Amendments in the Bill of Rights are equally valuable when they have to be weighed against each other. When such rights are in conflict, the intelligent citizen can figure out which rights mean the most, and hence, which way the decision should go.

It would be hard to make the case that the 3rd Amendment is equally valuable or useful compared to the 1st or 2nd Amendment, right?

On the other hand, states have legislative power to make laws regarding commuter and parking lot safety. That is what Florida did, much as it can establish requirements for the way that a company parking lot feeds out onto the streets.

If you wish to challenge Florida's law regarding firerms in parking lots, you are certainly free to do so. I don't know if Florida will eventually overturn the parking lot law, but it won't immediately lose on the basis of the 2nd not yet being incorporated.

What I am NOT doing is directly applying the 2nd Amendment to private party violations.

Parking lot signs...
I sometimes go fishing at a nearby lake and they have a sign at the park entrance clearly stating, “FIREARMS NOT ALLOWED.” If I can’t carry my firearm (I have an Arizona CCW permit), I am powerless to protect myself. Perhaps the parks department needs to put up more signs announcing, “ASSALT NOT ALLOWED, RAPE NOT ALLOWED, or MURDER NOT ALLOWED, etc. (Like that would be effective).

BrianR,
In Re: #116

Would you say the same thing if, instead, the condition of entering the parking lot was that you give the owner oral sex?

An employer has no more right to demand a search of your car or your person than he has to demand that as a condition of employment.

BrianR
(I kind of missed you too.)

I will give YOU a scenario;
Suppose your neighborhood has deteriorated while you have been working for an employer for a major part of your life and are nearing retirement when some owner enforces this new anti-gun rule?

Everyone knows the people who work for this anti-gun company will now be unarmed to & from work.
Do you kiss off your retirement by changing jobs or take a chance on being killed or crippled by some criminal who was attracted by the anti-gun policy?

I can understand people's cars being searched when they work in high security occupations.
Otherwise, any employer, or anyone else who I caught trying to open my trunk, even if it was EMPTY, would probably be seriously injured in the attempt.
The vehicle IS ALSO PRIVATE PROPERTY!
An employer has a right to look at his parking lot.
Other than that, the employers rights begin and end at the time clock.
My auto is my property, not the company's

Hahahaha, Mom of 4!

Uh, the law already covers that. It's called sexual harrassment, the case law is clear, and that was pretty funny!

Now.... if the "owner" was Michelle Pfeiffer, I don't think I'd be fighting it too hard, as I think about it.

MyOp.... dude!

You still haven't answered my question. Why not?

As to your car....again. You're perfectly free to park your car off-property. The owner is under NO obligation to provide any parking, AT ALL, to you. IF he does, he can put whatever restrictions on it he likes. He's under no obligation to provide a JOB to you, either. You work there AT HIS PLEASURE.

If you don't like those restrictions, you can park elsewhere or quit.


History buff
The cases of the original Constitution and Bill of Rights conflicting with one another are rarer than hen’s teeth. The only “right” that could have any conflict is the so-called freedom of speech since it is so vaguely worded, but when you look at it’s wording and original intent you can rapidly figure out that there really is no conflict.

Instead, what you have is conflict between one of the rights and some other right that the SCOTUS has badly interpreted in trying to reach a desired outcome.

With that in mind, the 3rd amendment carries just as much weight as any of the others. What is different about it is that the liberals on the courts haven’t figured an angle on it yet that enables them to find some new penumbra for a manufactured “right”. Neither have the liberals in the federal government yet tried out a scheme that would allow them to put soldiers in your house in an effort to save money. I’m sure though that as the communists become more bold in the future that they will find a way to get around that one and conservatives will try to fight them using the 3rd amendment. Of course by then there will be more than 5 communists on the court and we will lose.

BrianR
You have laughed. Now think.

Its the same thing -- a violation of your fundamental, inalienable human rights.

What's inside your car or inside your clothes is none of your employer's business.

I repeat, we are neither slaves nor indentured servants but free citizens. An employer buys our time, not our human rights.

Myopine
Being realistic here is what most people would do in your case. They would take a chance in one of two ways. Most would simply quit carrying the gun and take a chance that they would not be attacked to and from work. Another smaller group would continue to carry the gun and take a chance that they would not be searched in a manner that would find the gun.

Note that where I worked the enterior of the car/truck, the underside, and the trunk was vusiually inspected on entry to the access road to the parking lot. That was for permanent and badged employees. Visitors and delivery trucks were searched completely inside and out.

On entry to the actual work place we passed through metal detectors and bomb sniffers. All carryon items were Xrayed. Again visitors were searched and patted down.

I can not discuss everything that was done because that unto itself is a violation of federal law. I can say that being found with a gun in the parking lot was grounds for termination. Trying to get a gun into the workplace was firing AND instant transport to jail and a violation of law.

No, Mom of 4

I laughed because there's no "right" to demand oral sex. That's not covered under the Constitution nor any of its Amendments; hence there's absolutely no analogy at all.

The issue here is a conflict of valid rights between employer and employee, and which supercedes the other under a limited set of circumstances.


Is Michelle hiring?


BrianR and Vic--many choices
BrianR wrote to MyOp, "If you don't like those restrictions, you can park elsewhere or quit."

Those are most definitely not our only options. We can also push for laws that make CCW feasible even when commuting to work (which is what happened in Florid). Property rights advocates can then challenge that in court.

We can also push for a Constitutional Amendment to change the existing right. However, it is usually best not to use that option because it may make changes extremely resistant to change or correction.

We can also initiate a lawsuit to clarify the issues at the Supreme Court level, as recently happened with Heller.

The real world rarely produces clear, simple results.

BrianR
Boil your question down to what you want me to answer.
(When I get back from the store.)

As to your assertion the owner has no obligation to furnish parking?
If a parking place was part of the enticement that lured you to work there, the employer is obligated to provide it.
As to the employer's obligation to provide you employement;
That is contingent upon your contract.
(Individual or Union.)

In the imortal words of Samual Gompers;
"The fact that a Union exists within a Company is proof positive that sometime in the past, someone high in management has done something stupid!"

(Acting within State & Federal Labor Laws)
There are many things an employer can do to anger, harass & annoy employees.
(For a little while till they call for a Union Election.)
Then Company & employees both are saddled with a parasite that actually PREVENTS the company from dealing fairly with employees, wasts time and money of both and makes rules both must follow.
Old Sam was right!

It is far less expensive and more productive to cultivate employee loyalty.

gun rights
Although I'm a gun rights advocate, I believe the NRA is wrong on this issue. The Second Amendment only applies to the government and not private parties. If a company wants to prevent employees from bringing guns to work, it should be their priority.

BrianR--which hypothetical?
In one of your posts, you say I avoided you hypothetical.

There have been so many hypotheticals so far, that I don't know which specific hypo you mean. If you would copy it and repost it, I would be happy to answer it. Though perhaps not in a manner that will make yu happy.

Motherof4
Your argument covering sexual favors as a condition of employment is not a cogent argument. There are laws that already cover that it has noting to do with the Constitution.

In addition, there are very few things that an employer is actually forbidden to use as a “condition of employment”. Your example about tattoos is also not correct. In the so-called “right to work” States an employer can create just about any condition of employment he or she desires and fire you for it. You see, as long as the firing itself is not a violation of federal discrimination laws they can fire you for ANY reason they want. They can fire you and not tell you a reason.

Safety
No one will accept responsibility for YOUR safety. Only YOU can do that. One way you can do that is to avoid gun-free zones. Those are the places that prevent law-abiding citizens from carrying a firearm. But, neither their company policy nor their sign on the door will prevent criminals from entering with a gun, or bomb. Criminals don't play by the same rules that the rest of us have to play by.

You, and you alone, are responsible for your safety and the safety of your loved ones.

BrianR and Vic--rights and laws
Courts have regularly upheld laws (anti-private-property) that require adequate numbers of parking spaces for a given size company or condo complex. Needless to say, this uses up land area that the owner might prefer to use for other purposes....but it does have the benefit of avoiding massive parking problems on the streets.

Now what if Company A builds a new factory that has the requisite number of parking spaces....but each space is only two feet wide because that company owner decides that he only wants to accommodate motorcycles. I can safely predict that he will be found to be in violation of a mere LAW, even when he uses a Constitutional property right defense to do whatever he wishes on his property.

MyOp, History buff

MyOp, the question was posed in my 2:04PM post.

As to your claim that parking is somehow an inducement: that doesn't mean the conditions can't be changed. It's a private company. The company changes its policy, and again; you have the option of accepting the new rules or quitting.

The SAME THING happens when they offer you a raise, BTW. They don't have to do it; you don't have to accept it. Essentially, your work agreement has been renegotiated.

You don't have a "right" to any specific job in the private sector.

Buff, you later somewhat answered the hypothetical by saying you'd blow off your friendship with an anti-gun friend, which I then responded was the same option you enjoy as to your job.

As to your suggestion of passing new laws or even amending the Constitution. Well. I'm against most laws that mandate how private companies operate their businesses. You're simply proposing the same exact tack that the anti-smoking Nazis have used to implement THEIR policy preferences. Different issue, same approach.

So I'm agin ya on that.

As to amending the Constitution... well, good luck on that.

Buff, your 4:34PM

Government DOES exceed its authority -- regularly.

That doesn't justify doing it even MORE often.

Never forget: the law you have passed to forward your issue in this circumstance can easily be used AGAINST your interest at some point in the future on an issue you're against.

The State of Leftiforina, under the ADA, has madated that strip clubs make the stages wheelchail-accessible.

Anyone ever seen a wheelchair-bound stripper in their lives?


History buff
The Supreme Court has regularly upheld all kinds of trash laws that are blatantly unconstitutional. H*ll, look at Kelo and the entire host of eco-idiot laws that take property. The fact that they have upheld some laws that the liberals were in favor of doesn’t mean that the laws are in fact “constitutional”. It means that 5 justices desired the outcome that was achieved.

As for the zoning laws, these are local and rulings on them are normally from State courts. The SCOTUS addressed this in the first “takings” case in 1926 with Village of Euclid, Ohio v. Ambler Realty Co. This was another instance where the court magically changed “public use” to “public purpose”. They just called it something else at the time. SCOTUS has not addressed zoning laws since then, but after Kelo I wouldn’t be surprised if they allowed the government to just come in and take your property and pay you nothing and leave you nothing for any reason whatsoever.

BrianR,
In Re: #124

If an employer has the right to tell an employee what he can carry in his pockets or in his car then the same logic says that an employer has the right to make any other ridiculous, right-violating demand as a condition of employment.

If an employee has no right to refuse to have his car or person searched at the boss's whim lest he be fired then he has no right to refuse to be used as a sex toy either

Slavery and indentured servitude are illegal.

BrianR
I saw one once (in Hayward I think) that started in a wheelchair.

But I have seen everything…..hahahahaha

Sorry if shows twice but I got the dreaded “page not found” message.


You are right and You are correct?
I am from FLORIDA and I owned a GUN STORE when this whole flap started and the TRUTH IS BRADY AND GROUPS LIKE IT WERE PUSHING FOR JUST what you stated above!!! So the NRA and GUN RIGHTS GROUPS had to do battle. This as far as I can tell was going to be the only outcome. Let's get this right when groups of any kind/type us the power and pressure to make compines enforce "THEIR" demands from their view point only it pretty much begs for BIG BROTHER to step in. The BIG BOX RETAILERS of the WORLD CAVE into this kind of pressure on a dayly basis. So where and how do we seek redress? BIG BROTHER! I hve to say the author is not all that well informed on this whole mess. When you have a bussines that is open to the public like the one noted their are some things that you just cannot control every aspect of your coustomers. This is like the SMOKING thing. When I was young evety where allowed smoking and very few places of business no matter the size these no one could do anything about it. So they used the courts, lawmakers and public pressure to changes.

So why would we let the anti gunners use the same play book to destroy more of our RIGHTS AND FREEDOM and these are RIGHTS AND FREEDOM unlike smoking? We have learned from the LEFT and the many groups that run like them and I say we MUST use turn about and what ever means necessary to defend anf keep our FREEDOMS AND RIGHTS at ALL COST. So to the author go do some reading and some research. When you are at WAR you use each and every type of arms and actions you have too win that war. The truth is we are at war here in this country for the very things our Founding Fathers fought and died for and I will dam** if I will sit by and let my RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS be taken away because of public pressure by those who do not care about FREEDOM and are only worried about the small picture and their selfish want's and desires. This is the wussafaction of AMERICA!

Ah, no, Mom of 4

Again, you entirely miss the point.

The "demand" for oral sex is NOT a constitutional right of the employer. Therefore, there's no inherent conflict involved.

The requirement that no guns be carried onto property privately owned by the employer IS entirely within his constitutional rights.

If you find some logical equation there.... well, I don't know what to tell you.

Any word yet from Michelle?


Jeeeez, Vic!

And I thought I'D seen it all....

Man!


Hahahahaha.


BrianR
It's only a few hundred miles to Hayward man, but that stripper is like me and probably getting a little long in the tooth by now.

Vic, thanks for the heads up!

I'm still hoping for Michelle Pfeiffer to come through for me.....


ArmsnAmmo
Yes, we are in a quandary when the liberals force big companies to do things that the government can not do, but we are always better off following the written word of the Constitution.

Certainly the gun rights groups can get the word out about companies that have caved in to these gun grabbing groups and gun people can boycott their business and products. A similar thing happened with the great Smith and Wesson “selling to the public” fiasco a while back.

Again, most of these problems grew out of bad decisions by the courts to begin with, particularly in the area of lawsuits.

BrianR
Only if she will crawl across the top of the piano the way she did in The Fabulous Baker Brothers.

Extension of the Home
There are numerous instances of law wherein a vehicle has been determined to be an extension of the home. Vehicles are subject to a legal search by law enforcement on probable cause, a search warrant, or permission of the owner. The Constitution is clear in that a person shall be secure in his right to privacy in his home. The law as currently written applies to a vehicle. A company, that requires as a condition of employment, the right to search your vehicle, may be subject to legal action. Besides, what's to keep it from ending there. Will a company, as a condition of employment, want the right to search your home next??

BrianR & Vic
An employee has the legal RIGHT to assume existing conditions at the time of agreement are part of the agreement.
Certainly you can change those conditions.
You can also be sued for doing it!
Like most people without need to know, you seem totally unaware of Labor Laws.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vic;
You evidently were employed by the Govenment.
I am sure you were made aware of these conditions PRIOR to employement.
That is not the same as some cowardly gunophobiac hitting you with it after years on the job.

On the lighter side?
Our Landing Party was always searched for personal weapons before we went ashore.
They never found any in gear or on our person.
(They were hidden in the boat!)

Shadowlover, MyOp

Shadowlover... the requirement for a warrant has to do with government action under the Fourth Amendment. As I've written earlier, non-governmental entities aren't bound by those contraints.


Well, MyOp, anybody can sue anybody else for anything under the sun.

Good luck on winning.


MyOpine
Nope, I worked for a private company but it was in the most heavily regulated industry in the U.S.

And when I first started working for them the only thing going on was the metal detector going in and the prohibition of guns inside. They didn't care if you had a gun in your car.

All of the other things were brought in later. The parking lot rules came about after 9-11 in 2001.

Vic! You're tough, bro!

Michelle Pfeiffer? Major babe-a-liscious Michelle?


BrianR
Ain't that the truth. I was laughing at Fox News the other night making a bif=g deal about a new web site called "who can I sue". Supposedly this site will tell you if you have a cause of action.

Hahahaha, there pretty much is no such thing anymore. You can sue anybody for anything, and in some juristictions you can win on any premise. This is most likely why employers are banning guns in the parking lot, not at the beheast of some gun grabbing group.


BrianR,
No, you are the one who is completely missing the point.

If employees have no property rights -- no rights to dictate the contents of their own pockets and their own vehicles -- then the same logic that awards all rights to the employer and no rights to the employee says that if a boss demands oral sex as a condition of employment then the employee had better drop to his knees and get busy because his only other option is to quit.

And if employers have all rights and employees have no rights then I guess slavery is legal after all.

The employer who does not wish to respect his employees' rights can decide that running a business is not for him since it involves letting people come onto his property without first stripping them of all the rights that free citizens of a free country possess -- Rights that are every bit as inalienable as his own rights.

King Liberal--things you should learn
1. Need is not the operative word for ANY right (what "need" gives you the right of free speech? Freedom from cruel and unusual punishment? Etc.). Feel free to show us which rights are contingent upon a showing of "need". The only laws along those lines you could show us are the old-fashioned anti-self-defense laws that were intended to keep people helpless and dependent. Not good enough opinion KL....unless you were one of those who liked "literacy tests" to prove that blacks were qualified to vote. "Who and where", as you say.

2. The police and government are not legally liable if they fail to protect you or your loved ones. This is true in all 50 states and 3,054 counties in the U.S. The citizens' best option is to be able to defend him/herself and their loved ones. The Heller case justices all agreed (9-0) that the 2nd Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL right, not the sometimes claimed COLLECTIVE right.

3. The most thorough survey shows that there are 2.5 million self-defenses per year in the U.S.....5x as many as the incidents of crime with a firearm. Some surveys indicate as many as 4.4 million self-defenses.

4. There are now 40 states that have "shall-issue" concealed carry licenses (similar to a driver's license in requiring a written and practical test, and mandatory issuance if you pass, unless the government can prove that you are a known specific danger to the public). Contrary to all the anti-self-defense propaganda, those states that enacted "shall-issue" did not experience a massive bloodbath due to "more guns on the streets", but a reduction in violent crime.

I just posted a

pictorial essay about shooting on my blog, if anyone's interested.

Just click my underlined name.


Mom of 4

For you, apparently, 1+2 = 97.

Your statements are simply absurd. There's nothing more I can say to you.


BrianR
There is good news and bad news. The good news is Michele is on her way. The bad news is she already has a date and she is bringing her friend Barbra Streisand for you.

BrianR
You seem blissfully unaware of CA Labor Laws.
They are very tricky.
Here, it would be unlawful for me to quote the silly instance I would like to.

For awhile there were people sort of like "Travelers" who made a fortune by duping naive employers into violating Labor Laws.

LOL, Pistol!

Man...I am sooooooo bummed!


Hey! Streisand's married! To Brolin! Makes me wonder when the last time was he got HIS eyes checked.....


Pistol
Tat was cruel and unusual punishment.

A Car Is Private Property

What about the rights of the employee and their car? In New Mexico, the car is given the same 4th Amendment considerations as the home.

As long as the product isn’t illegal, it’s no ones business what’s in a car; not the government, other individuals, or employers.

Guns in Cars
If an employer provides security it makes sense to prohibit emplyees from carrying a firearm. For instance, in a nuclear power plant there should be plenty of armed guards. If an employer prohibits an employee with a permit from keeping a firearm in his/her car and said employee is attacked in the parking lot or on the way home-will the employer be held liable.
My earlier comments stand-your vehicle is an extension of your home. Moreover, no "gun rule" has ever stopped an attacker. If a person is crazy enough to commit murder no employer rule will stop him.

You have a right to own a dog

Why don't all you guys go tell your employers you DEMAND that they let you take your dogs to work, too?


Ultraman
We already addressed that with the fact that the employee has an implied contract to allow his car to be searched.

And the property owner's buisiness can be anything on his property that he wants it to be.

Some buisinesses go to the extreem of telling employees what they can do in their private life as well. They have not run afoul of any laws yet.

Leonard
Guards at Nuclear Power plants are not there to protect employees.

No, Leonard, that's incorrect

That theory has been tested in court and found sorely lacking.

Gun manufacturers, car manufacturers, employers... all have been found "not responsible" for the criminal acts of bad guys. You can't blame your employer if you get mugged by some third party.

Further, there's no "duty to aid" someone else in trouble, either, though "Good Samaritan" laws HAVE been passed to indemnify from liability those who elect to do so.


BrianR
Here is the babes waiting for you since Michelle is tied up.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0gSnd1U99Y4P0

Thanks to AOS.

BrianR
Many Gunophobiacs think a dog can be used for home protection.
Intruders have won big legal awards from being bitten by a dog during a home invasion.

Criminals do have rights you know.
Be sure your carpet is secure, lest a burglar trip over it and sue you!
(Burglar won a case because he was injured by a loose board in a window casement!)

Beretta & Walther still make some of the finest home security devices.



Aaaaaaaaaarghhhhh!

My eyes!.......my eyes!.........



LOL, MyOp

Yeah, there have been some pretty nutty awards.

I do believe my "home security" devices represent most of the finest names in gun manufacture.


Vic, implied contract?

So what if they have a sign? No individual or employer can deny rights by stating that they are exercising their rights.

Tell you what. I’ll put up a sign saying that I have the implied contract to violate you with a broom handle. Think that will pass muster?

Solutions always seem to be all one way
Our Constitutional freedoms are predicated on society of citizens using good judgment. Our sense of safety should derive from sharing a common ethos, of what is right and wrong. Having a right to do something doesn't mean we have to. In fact, we protect them our rights by using good judgment.

Most of us don't live in violent neighborhoods. Carrying a gun shouldn't be an issue. But for criminals to worry that we COULD be carrying helps keep it safe.

There are lots of gangs where I live and most, IMHO, operate under the protection of politicians. Yet I wouldn't carry a gun even if I could get a carry permit. Although self-employed, I work in an office suite that would allow me to pack at work.

I too believe employers should have the right to regulate guns in the workplace for reasons BrianR specified. But they should be be willing to make exceptions. For instance, I would have no problem with allowing anyone to bring a gun to work if they then left it in a locked facility while at work. I would also have no problem with employers allowing certain employees to carry on the job if they had a valid reason (death threats, or key witness in a trial e.g.).

In other words, freedom isn't the same as anarchy. It's almost never all one way or the other. We wouldn't need laws at all if we were all living our lives with exemplary virtue. The more of us that can't, the more the rights of everyone are threatened. As a gun owner, I am not concerned about my friends having and carrying guns. But I would question their judgment were they compelled to carry their guns at all times just because they have the right to.

Employers who insist on hiring people of dubious character or locating facilities in violent high-crime areas, who hire the unskilled with minimal background checks, are creating bad situations to begin with. Their judgment is questionable. They should be taking extra precautions.

UltraMan
Don't start any BS on here.

Obligation for protection
If an employer, business, or homeowner denies the right of self defense (by any method, but primarily hand guns, concealed or otherwise) the law should make that employer, business (airline), or homeowner responsible for any damages deriving from that need for defense.

BrianR,
No, you have the inability to see that if A=B and C=B then A=C as well.


Time to go
BrianR, Pistol, Myopine, ya'll be good. Back tommorow.

Warlord, the problem with
your thesis is that if you know the conditions of your presence on the property, you have the option of not being there. Therefore YOU assume all liability.

YOU are exercising your own choice in the matter by accepting employment, or entering the premises, or whatever. No one's forcing you to be there.

Once again, you're perfectly free to walk away, refuse the employment, not shop in the store, don't visit your friend's house, whatever.

They do NOT assume liability for your safety simply because you decided to accept their requirement that you be disarmed in order to be on their property.

That legal theory will take you exactly nowhere.

Where are the comments?
Boy the comments must have gotten pretty vitriolic. They seem to have totally disappeared. I guess I don't expect someone who writes for the Chicago Tribune to "get it" re this issue.

BrianR
At one time I thought I would become a custom gun maker after I retired.
I obtained a license. (Wrong license), and to practice as I learned, I attended gun shows to buy up broken and defective guns to repair.
They required too much time and labor for other gunsmiths to bother with them.
I often had spare time at work so I would repair guns at work.
There were usually three or four pistols in my rollaway at any time.

Employer knew this. Supervisor came to me for advice on what to buy for a house gun.
None of my guns ever hurt anyone while I was at work.

Hey, Vic

Don't forget your date with those lovely ladies whose picture you steered me to!


Well, that's fine, MyOp

Listen, if I had a company, I'd probably try to make gun possession mandatory!

You were fortunate, and that's actually not unusual. For most companies, this whole thing's an absolute non-issue.

But SOME companies are very anti-gun, and make no bones about it.

I absolutely live in blue jeans, now that I'm retired. Many years ago, when I learned that Levi Strauss was a big contributor to anti-gun causes, I switched to Wranglers, and never looked back.

Did Levi Strauss have a "right" to make that contribution? To take a stand against the Second Amendment? To, I would bet, ban guns from their premises?

You bet they did. And THAT'S the entire issue at hand here.

I ALSO had the right to decide to take my business elsewhere.

Which I did.

BrianR
I wear Wranglers too.
Switched when I was part owner in a riding stable and did a lot of riding.

Richfield is the anti-gun company that stuck in my craw.
They were soliciting donations to Handgun Inc. ON THE RICHFIELD GAS CARD!
I still won't use Richfield gas.

MyOpine
Couple questions since you say you have worked on old guns. I have a .30/40 Win 95. The metal is good to very good and shootable shape. The buttstock looks like it was dropped 5 stories and landed on the butt. The damage is all at the wrist, but extensive. I only have a couple hundred in it and i would like to either repair the butt or replace it with, hopefully, an original buttstock. Is this possible, feasible and what cost wouold you say? I also have an old Savage 99, .22 HP cal, with butchered butt stock and about zero finish. Its a takedown. does Savage or Winchester do any restoration work on their old guns? Ideally i'd like shooters with out their old timer value ruined. Don't want much, do i?

MyOp!

Don't eat Ben and Jerry's, pard!

The absolute WORST liberal schmoes in the world.


Oh, and PS, MyOp

That's ALSO the reason I don't buy ARCO gas.

Screw them.

chapman misses it
Chapman says that property rights trump the right of self defense. Shallow thinking on his part. SELF DEFENSE IS THE ULTIMATE AND QUINTESSENTIAL PROPERTY RIGHT! A person's body is their property and that property travels. The right to the protection of that property travels with it. (Dammit I should be writing my own column.) The right of self defense supersedes the right to personal material property because if the body is not protected, personal material property rights become moot to the person. Now is that so hard? Carry everywhere, all the time. Universal precaution it is called and we are required to use it in the delivery of health care. Why should we not be able treat other risks to our health in the same way?

Tedmug......again

Read Heller. Both Vic and I posted the link earlier.


Pistol
I repaired pistols almost exclusively.
Made nearly all my own parts.
Made a few rifles but I never restored antiques.

It has been many years since I have replaced a rifle stock.
Bishop is the brand I used to use. Don't know if they are still around.
Herters used to sell stocks too.

If damage is not too bad you might be able to just replace the damaged section by dovetailing new wood to the good parts and concealing the glue section with checkering.
Stockmaking is very labor intensive.
Gunsmiths do charge for labor.

Without actually seeing the problem it is hard to suggest a remedy.
Wish I could be of more help.

You might try to find those old stocks on the net.
If those old guns are not properly cared for they will rust out and the stock is the only thing left.

Dear BrianR
I surmise that you are referring me to a court decision that rebuts what I have posted. I am not here to discuss law history. I am here to discuss fundamental American rights. Those listed in the Bill of Rights. My quick and dirty assessment is that they are all property rights. It may seem odd to think of the human body as property but indeed it is so. I think the idiot King Liberal said that restaurateurs should be able to deny firearms to their patrons unless they have a need. Hogwash. Well, I have a need to protect myself at all times. The right travels with the body.

Gun Rights vs. Employers
The Florida law, and most in other states which have passed such legislation, exempts the employer from torts caused by the employee who keeps a gun in his/her car and commits a crime involving said firearm. The law also only applies to CCW permit holding employees, and only allows keeping the weapon IN the car, not on the job. The employer is still free to ban guns on the worksite, and to ban visitors and employees who are NOT CCW holders.

Somehow it has come to be…
… in America that the rules written down so many years ago only apply to the Federal Gov. That is to say the Fed. Gov. cannot break any of the Founding Fathers wishes. Somehow the States need not apply any of them should they decide not to. As for the people them self’s none of the rules apply, not a single one, because they are bound by none of them. When something goes wrong the first one to scream “I have my rights and they are being violated” is the same people that say the rules of our fore fathers only apply to the Gov. With that said the seconded amendment “shall not be infringed” and that only applies to the Fed. Gov.! What the states do is a different story now is it not? That is exactly what the SC has done; they put it right into the states hands directly. The law of the land, a right, has been put into the states hands make you jump through any hoops they wish.

The Construction says (in one place) we have the right to own property! Now, with that said someone show me where it says the states own it and you only rent it! If you do not pay your tax you will lose it to the state, therefore you do not own it at all. You are allowed to think you do. So, if a person wants to have a gun locked in his car then happy birthday it is none of any ones business! Else; show us where it is anyone’s business. That is a major problem in America today; we stick our nose in everyone’s business but our own. What gives you that right?

Guns in cars
In Florida, the law says that you have a right to defend yourself in any place in which you are legally entitled to be. It has long been understood that our car is an extension of our home. In other words, even before the new self defense law, a person could defend himself in his car as if he were in his home. When you ride a bike or walk to work, you are not legally in your home while traveling. When you drive your car, you are. So, even when you drive onto someone else's property, you are still legally in your home. As long as you don't take your weapon out or illegally display it, you are, and should be, within your rights. The same goes for the rare but not unheard of instance of having to use your weapon in self defense, even on company property.

Brian and others are still wrong
The smoking analogy is still wrong. Employees may choose to not work at a business that allows smoking but the health aspects of the smoke still effects the employee who volunteers to work there. Work Comp and other OSHA safeguards still protect the worker from volunteering to work in a smoking environment that is hazardous to the employees health.

The Employee parking lot is public access unless it has a manned check point / guarded gate. Just a sign saying "Employee parking only" does not make it "not public access." The Court has ruled that restricted access has to be enforced 24/7 to be legally accepted as "restricted access" and thus not subject to civil rights provisions. It still does not make a private car the domain of the private property owner. READ "Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins."

Prunyard only said that State law can
establish additonal "rights" above those in the Constitution in dealing with speech. I am not sure that it is applicable to this issue.

In any case, most jurists think that Prunyard was in fact a taking and was wrongly decided. Since Prunyard was decided the courst have cut it back and narrowed it considerably but have failed to reverse it.

That is because the court is still so liberal in the "taking arena" that they may as well be communist. Kelo is a fine example of that.

And finally, just because they committed a "wrong" in 1980 doesn't justify committing another wrong in 2008.

Given the liberal nature of the court and how they butchered Heller, I am confident that IF came down to "property rights" vs "second amendment" the property right would prevail.