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Thursday, August 21, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Perils of a Lower Drinking Age
by Steve Chapman
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Life is full of surprises, and some 100 college presidents think they have stumbled on one. They think there is too much problem drinking on campus -- no surprise there -- and suggest we might solve the problem by changing the drinking age. They don't propose to raise it to 25. They want to lower it to 18.

The group behind the petition they signed, Choose Responsibility, says the current drinking age is a failure. It has "not resulted in significant constructive behavioral change among our students," the statement says, and in fact has spawned "a culture of dangerous, clandestine 'binge-drinking' -- often conducted off-campus."

It's true that in the old days, there was no college culture of clandestine, off-campus binge drinking. It was out in the open, right on the quad. Another difference back then: There was more of it.

At the risk of stating the obvious, that's at least partly because in most states, the drinking age was under 21. Youngsters could buy booze legally, so they did what you would expect. They drank more and got drunk more.

It's bizarre to blame the higher age for today's staggering undergraduates. According to Monitoring the Future, an ongoing research project at the University of Michigan, binge drinking has not risen since 1988, when 21 became the minimum drinking age throughout the country. Among college students and other college-age Americans, the rate is lower today than it was then, and the decline has been even bigger among high-school students.

It's true the progress stalled around 1996. But how can that be blamed on the higher drinking age? By then, it had been the national norm for nearly a decade.

In spite of the law, plenty of 18-to-20-year-olds somehow manage to get wasted on a regular basis. But a law can be helpful without being airtight. This one has curbed not only the use of alcohol among young people, but its dangerous abuse.

Since 1988, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, drunk-driving deaths have dropped in all age groups. That's due in part to stricter enforcement and changing public attitudes about drinking and driving. But they dropped most among those younger than 21. In that group, the number of alcohol-related fatalities has been cut nearly in half -- even as the number of non-alcohol-related traffic deaths has been stable.

This is not a coincidence. When states lowered their drinking age in the 1970s, they got more drunk-driving deaths among teenagers than similar states that stayed at 21. A 1983 study in the Journal of Legal Studies concluded that any state that "raises its drinking age can expect the nighttime fatal crashes of drivers of the affected age groups to drop by about 28 percent."

There are other arguments for lowering the age. Maybe the most popular is that if you're old enough to join the Army and die for your country, you're old enough to buy a beer. But there is a good reason to avoid such blind consistency. Among the qualities that make 18-year-olds such good soldiers are their fearlessness and sense of immortality -- traits that do not mix well with alcohol.

Besides, we don't have a single age threshold for adulthood. We give driver's licenses to 16-year-olds, but a 20-year-old Marine returning from Iraq will find he may not buy a handgun or gamble in a casino.

Why permit 18-year-olds to vote but not drink? Because they have not shown a disproportionate tendency to abuse the franchise, to the peril of innocent bystanders.

Another reason is that extending the vote to 18-year-olds doesn't let even younger people gain illicit access to the polls. But if high-school seniors could legally patronize a liquor store, sophomores would find it much easier to get party fuel. Raising the drinking age to 21 reduced alcohol-related traffic fatalities not only among 18-year-olds, who lost the right to drink, but 16-year-olds, who never had it.

It's not hard to make a logical case for allowing 18-year-olds to buy alcohol, but only if you disregard the practical effects of letting them do something that many of them are not mature enough to handle. In this debate, the ultimate wisdom comes from Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, who reminded us that sometimes, a page of history is worth a volume of logic.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Let's raise all the ages
for everything. Sixteen-year-olds should wait until they're 18 before getting a driver's license.

Fishing, hunting licenses? As young as their dad or mom allows.

Eighteen is just fine for enlisting in the military. A little young to be married, but that will only mess up the spouse's and children's lives; it's generally not fatal.

Twenty-one for drinking and for voting. And passing a basic Civics test before registering to vote. And picture i.d. and proof of citizenship at registration.

Oh, well, it's late. I must be delerious.

This article is BS
It is the same as a poster from yesterday so I will repeat my comments there:

Following your logic drinking and driving would decrease if we raised the drinking age to 60, as in that failed experiment of prohibition.

Raising the drinking age from 18 to 21 nationwide was a gross exercise in unconstitutional federal power. It was feel-good legislation done to satisfy a special interest group called MAD. Somehow this group of nannies dreamed up the idea that drinking and driving by young people would decrease if they raised the age from 18 to 21. They did the same thing in lowering the limit from the standard 0.10 BAC to 0.08 BAC. Neither one of these changes had any rational or scientific evidence to support them.

I have seen NOTHING since the age was raised that caused the rate to go down. Indeed, my gut tells me that raising it probably increased the rate because young people would have to go out of their way further to get alcohol.

Yes “surveys” show drink and driving by youth has decreased. LOL, I wonder how many people actually believe these surveys? I went out and pulled up a survey that has been done by the government for decades. The MADD group got this law passed in 1984 and all the States were then required to change their own laws within the next few years or face losing highway funds.

Looking at the government “survey” drinking among youth was decreasing long before this stupid and unconstitutional law was passed. The rate of drinking and driving doesn’t appear to have changed to any appreciable degree.

Isn’t it ironic that the home of the brave and the land of the free has the most restrictive drinking laws in the world?

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/FewerYoungD rivers/iii__d.htm


The Perils of Statism
Why stop here? You could eliminate teen drunk driving if you just limit driver's licensing to Republican pundits and Sunday school teachers.

Except that you couldn't. Because teens will get drunk as they always have. And the more immoral government legislation, the cooler it will become to drink.

You don't want your kids to drink, then teach them right or move to Utah. You don't want other people's kids to drink- mind your own business.

This article is devoid of principle. Our right-wing founders committed treason over a STAMP TAX. And here our modern conservatives can't address social 'problems' with any thing other than a call for unbridled federal force. Thomas Jefferson is going to roll in his grave when McCain starts unleashing The Surge on his 'Transcendent' villains gun ownership, Ultimate Fighting, and the speculating tax loop hole that is capitalism. Not to mention that terrorist enabling internet thing his wife turns on for him.

F in Critical Thinking
How many young people's lives are ruined because they chose to violate a dumb law and got caught by some cop padding his arrest numbers? Any discussion of costs without benefits fails a sobriety test. Once upon a time there was this thing called "responsible drinking." Many people did it. But that was when Amercia was a free country and states weren't blackmailed into raising the drinking age by a federal government that withheld highway funds if they didn't.

I'm for lowering
the drinking age. Whenever this subject is debated, we hear one side insisting on 21 and the other side insisting on 18. Can't there be some middle ground? I don't want to see 18 year-old high school seniors running down to the local pub for a quick beer on their lunch break, and picking up a six-pack for 16 & 17 year-old friends, but I would support lowering the age to 19.

Drinking age
Look. You don't have to be underage to start drinking. You can even start when you're of the legal age. What a concept! You probably heard about Lindsay Lohan's, Khloe Kardashian's, Shia LeBeouf's, Scott Weiland's, and Chad Kroeger's DUIs when you wrote this article. They may have started drinking when they were underage, but they're overage now. Canada's drinking age is 18, so Chad gets some slack cut, but shouldn't USA's drinming age be that way, too?

They will do it anyway
This is exactly the same argument that the Hottie Mamas use to argue that condoms should be passed around in the first grade: THEY ARE GONNA DO IT ANYWAY!

When I was at Bible College in a dry county, we brought liquor across the North Carolina border (a felony, as we discovered later) and people drank in their rooms, and one woman with an unusual name habitually lent her ID to underaged friends to buy beer -- it was kind of a local joke to count up the number of *Lulu Shembeckler* underaged drinkers were busted that weekend. But the wages of being caught were that the Dean sent for you and you were expelled. He kindly offered, in his heavy Tennessee accent, to *Hep Ya Pack* and that got to be a watchword around the school as a whine against Rules in General.

Yes, when the law says you cannot drink, some people drink anyway; just like when the law says you cannot have sex with a seven-year-old boy, some men do it anyway. In fact, when you have a law that people cannot own handguns and blast away at each other in the middle of a birthday party, people do THAT too.

The problem in this case is that people who have striven all their lives to be Pals and Hotties to their own children do not want to be parents to other peoples children either. Let them rampage and kill each other and innocent people, wholesale and retail -- Just Dont Make Them Think I Am Like Their Daddy! And why not let them booze it up in the classroom too -- after all, THEY WILL DO IT ANYWAY!

Your job is to rein them in, teach them limits, and protect the rest of the school who would like to get educated and not killed by uncontrolled brats who only want to get drunk. Do your job. Hep them Pack.

The mistake made here
is taking the drinking age question in isolation.

There was a time in our culture's history when the "rights" of the young were not the primary consideration, but the responsibilties were and the culture was designed with that in mind.

Hence, we had such things as a military draft, a set age for drivers' licenses, and a drinking age limit, etc.

These were seen, not as limiting the young's prerogatives, but instead were set in order to, as a society, teach and encourage the young to recognize their coming to the age of responsibiltiy and to simultaneously reward them with a sense of accomplishment.

Such considerations today meet with a collective, "Huh?", followed by a temper tantrum.

Another thing that started around 1984
was the war on drugs,primarily marijuana. After over 20 years of PSA's against the weed,we have an epidemic of methamphetamine,opiate and alcohol abuse. Prohibition doesnt work. If you're an adult you should be able to drink ,however I'd like to see those taxpayer funded PSA's aimed at dangerous drugs like alcohol.

Additionally,
the more troubling aspect of this movement to reduce the drinking age limit is the source of the movement.

Those who, in an earlier time, were seen as gatekeepers of the comprehensive development of the young placed in their care, have now become, instead, enablers.

Oh yeah, we're progressing, aren't we?

A simple remedy
If the college presidents want to get rid of underage drinking, they have a simple remedy at their fingertips: forbid it under pain of expulsion--then follow through.

It'll never happen, of course, since they're much too afraid that adopting such a policy would result in dropping enrollments and alumni protests.

Extend that logic,
If we extend that logic just imagine how many drunk driving fatalities and how much alcohol abuse we could prevent if we raised the drinking age to 40. By that age people generally settle down and understand their responsibilities so they'd better understand the responsibilities of alcohol consumption, right?

Better idea -- One age for all adult privileges and all adult responsibilities. Turn 18, or 21, or whatever age is chosen and you get to drive, vote, drink, marry, enlist in the military, consent to sex, sign valid contracts, buy a gun, and assume the full consequences for every action you choose to take. Before that birthday its your parent's responsibility to teach you how to be an adult so you'll be ready.

Changing the drinking age, up or down, will be completely meaningless as long as we live in a culture of irresponsibility where everyone has privileges without duties and consequences are optional.

Meanwhile, responsible parents include instruction about the responsible consumption of alcohol -- both specific lessons AND leading by example -- in the instruction they give their kids long before they approach adulthood.

I SAY DO NOT DO IT.
I'm one of you so called , Baby boomers. We Had the drinking then. And some of our best friends were lost and it was not from any war. I'm sorry but when you'r 18 you lucky to be that and should and should be so !! To many drink and drive. Did any of you see what the police have to see?? Thm Pealing some teenage
young adut off the road, because they though drinking and speed was fun. go to you police department. and have them so you the grousm Picture. I', 62 now and lucky to be here. I got into those speeding autos. I was just one of the lucy ones. and Im now just starting collage. Eddie

As one poster saiud, Thomas Jefferson
is turning over in his grave. When this Republic was formed there was no "drinking age" and no license was needed to drive a horse. It was like most of Europe is now.

And that included State law. The idea that the federal government would have authority for these kinds of things would have been laughed out of existence.

GASP..I agree with higher ed..uh oh
Who's of thunk it....absolutely, not ME.

I don't drink..my personal choice..

I believe that if you're old enough to be considered an adult and pay the piper than you should be able to make a personal choice.

Historically speaking not so long ago in 1978/79
the drinking age in many states was 18. I was in the Chicago area when it was changed from 18 to 19 then left before it went to 21.

My dad told me if you drink, drive, and get caught don't bother to call..you blew it.

Well, I didn't jail scared the pants off me and I didn't chance it.

If 18 year olds can die for their country why can't they have a cold beer in the sandbox of the theater they're fighting in.

The best way to make adults is to expect them to live up to being responsible and know that they will have to pay the piper if they blow it.
I think VERY tough non-negotiable sentences should be used if an 18 year old is dumb and doesn't follow the rules.
They're adults..treat them like they're adults.
If they blow it no bailing them out with soft or reduced sentences..

They will live up to it...The less meddling by nannies the better the person.
I gave my 2 adult sons the same lecture that my dad gave me and neither of them have goofed up they know mom won't come to the station and bail them out.

Vic
Trying to make a comparison between Thomas Jefferson's time and today's is fraught with danger for your side of the argument.

Infringement on States Rights.
At the end of the day, direct comparisons of countries with laws such as we have, and those without them, shows little that justifies the laws as we currently have them. Many countries do not, for example, regulate drinking at home. They do regulate the age at which a bar or restaurant can serve alcohol, and it is generally 16 to 18. They also do not prevent young people from going into bars with their parents and sitting at the same table. This entire issue derives first from the days of prohibition when morality and personal behavior began to be legislated, and more recently from MADD. At the core of the issue is the fact that the Federal Government over-rode the powers of the states to set national standards, when previously it had been up to people within their own states to set their own rules.

The assumption of this power by the Federal Gvoernment has no constitutional basis - but has happened none-the-less.

Now, we have 308 million people arguing about having 1 solution, when there are actually many ways to deal with this issue. So, like so many other issues, we cannot reach a concensus. And, ironically, we shouldn't need to. If the people in Idaho have a different view, then what business is it of people in Alabama, let alone Washington?

edna
"If 18 year olds can die for their country why can't they have a cold beer in the sandbox of the theater they're fighting in."

While I'm against lowering the drinking age, I admit you make a valid point. Instead of lowering the age across the board, why not just make an exception for those on active duty in the military?

CHUCKY
You're right about one thing, there is no comparison as the Amwerican people no longer support the Constitution or freedom.

edna
"If 18 year olds can die for their country why can't they have a cold beer in the sandbox of the theater they're fighting in."


How about this argument: "If 18 year olds can drink, whu can't they fight for their conutry as well? "

Vic
"You're right about one thing, there is no comparison as the American people no longer support the Constitution or freedom."

It's not a simple as that. "WHY don't they?", is the larger question.

interesting
There are a couple of interesting things about this discussion. One is seeing libertarian Steve Chapman arguing for the benefits of government social engineering. It turns out that for him government can limit behavior that is not in itself bad on the grounds that it has identifiable bad consequences (at least for others, although Chapman does not focus on that aspect).

The other is watching people respond to an article that uses evidence sensibly by showing a disdain for using evidence sensibly.

Non-commuter campuses have a good reason for wanting to lower the drinking age. For them, a high drinking age just means their students will go off campus to drink, or will keep their drinking hidden in ways that make it more dangerous.

But Chapman's evidence does suggest that this is the exception, and that our roads are safer because of the higher drinking age. And unlike most conservative arguments he understands that such evidence needs to checked against obvious comparison groups. Did anything else happen at the relevant time that could explain the change? Did other groups have the same change occur. His critics do not seem to see the relevance of such things.

Seeing the topic and author I first expected the article to be tongue in cheek. And then seeing that he was serious I expected the argument to be weak. But he does a surprisingly good job here.

Pretty simple
If you are old enough to go off and get yourself killed in some war someplace, you are old enough to drink.

So a 19 year old is too immature to drink, but mature enough to go to Iraq with a weapon filled with live rounds? Yeah, that makes sense.

Chucky go back to school
LEARN TO SPELL!

Ken,
I'll address you instead of Chucky. My argument would be that.. all men are created equal and if you allow one, but, rule out another it's unconstitutional.
Loosely compared we can use the 13th/14th and 19th Amendments to our Constitution,
as argument we had to go back and re-equal rights. Also closer to the subject Jim Crow laws come to mind.

Look, I was a paramedic in LA and Chicago and I hate drunk drivers more than the next guy because I've seen and scraped up their destruction.
I believe in personal responsibility and in freedom
As an adult ACT like an adult if you don't pay the piper and may you rot (for drunk driving)

But nannies are killing my country and I won't stand for that either.

As one who was..........
in college in 1985 when the New York drinking age changed, I found the law to be pretty misleading. I was legal for 37 days, then all of a sudden I was banned for another 2 years. So, basically I was OK when I turned 19, but in those 37 days thereafter I became too irresponsible to drink legally. I still don't know what I did..............

An irony
The reasoning given for raising of minimum drinking age (in 1984) to 21 was to curb binge-drinking; strange to see that college presidents are so dumb that they cannot remember this, nor even that binge-drinking existed prior to 1984.

For michigander @ 06:48 -- is your idea basically to prevent under-21's from travelling to morOntario (minimum drinking age 19) to drink?

Repeating dumb ideas
"If the college presidents want to get rid of underage drinking, they have a simple remedy at their fingertips: forbid it under pain of expulsion--then follow through."

Someone is parroting that so-called Libertarian and first-class idiot Neal Boortz.

So he supports 19 year olds going and dying in Iraq, but their tiny brains are just too immature to handle a beer.

I have a better idea. Why don't we let adults--19 year old are adults--act like adults and face the consequences of being an adult. SO if they drink and drive they go to jail. Why should legal adults be treated like children?

Akagi
"So a 19 year old is too immature to drink, but mature enough to go to Iraq with a weapon filled with live rounds? Yeah, that makes sense."

As I said in a previous post, I think exceptions ought to be made for people on active duty in the military.

In the sixties, people made a similar argument about the right to vote. They said if a persob can be drafted at 18, he should be allowed to vote at 18. That was a fair point, so hey should have extended the right to vote to include only those who were eligible for the draft. Thus, a draft deferment would also have been a deferment of the right to vote.

edna
"My argument would be that.. all men are created equal and if you allow one, but, rule out another it's unconstitutional."

In other words, your argument regarding the military was just a smoke screen.

Vic, you wrote...
"The idea that the federal government would have authority for these kinds of things would have been laughed out of existence."

I couldn't agree more. The debate here shouldn't be on the wisdom of lowering the drinking age. It should be on whether moralistic and faceless federal bureaucrats should be allowed to circumvent state legislatures by threatening to withhold federal highway funds if their defacto "nationwide" laws are not enacted. In their arrogance, they believe themselves wiser than our state legislators. But it's a problem of the states' own making in that they have rolled over to these strong-arm tactics. I would love to see a resolution passed at the next governors conference whereby all the states agree to henceforth tell the feds to keep their freekin highway funds. Then, when the interstate highways begin to crumble, let the trucking lobby come down on congress like a ton of bricks. The bottom line is that our state legislators have to grow some gonads.

Ken
No, I'm not blowing smoke...I think you misunderstood my point.

Allowing a military person to drink at 18 and not allowing an 18 that's stateside (non-military) would be wrong and unconstitutional.

18 is 18 and considered an adult, as a US citizen the law should apply to ALL 18 year olds.

Messed up priorities
So, say I want to do two things. One is smoke a joint in he privacy of my back yard on a Friday night, maybe with a cold beer. The other is ride a 1,200cc sports motorbike on the highway wearing nothing but a pair of shorts, flip flops and a t-shirt. One kills about 5,000 Americans every year, the other has zero recorded fatalities. One is perfectly legal, the other will land me in jail, lose me my job and ruin the future not only for me but also for my children, because I'll either be in jail or unable to get a decent job. And here we are talking about raising the drinking age? Legislating human nature is not only dumb, it's also impossible. It's interesting that accordingto the WHO, the countries with the lowest incidence of alcoholism are those that either have strict Islamic regimes or are those wose culture is to introduce a healthy respoect for alchohol from an early age. So which way do you want to go? The naughtier it is the more young people will do it...

edna
"18 is 18 and considered an adult, as a US citizen the law should apply to ALL 18 year olds."

Then should women be required to register for the draft?

svpallava
I think the purpose was to actually stop DUIs. The text book example MADD used was Ohio--WV--Penn. Ohio and PA had a drinking age of 21, but WV was 18, so kids from PA and Ohio would drive to WV, get drunk, drive back and never make it or kill someone else. One road was so famous for this that connected the three states it became known as the death highway or highway of death or something along those lines. They argued for a uniform drinking age so instead of forcing neanderthal states like Ohio and PA (and others as well--e.g. Nevada)to lower it to a reasonable age--should people go through almost their entire college tenure without being able to legally drink, it forced the states to raise it in stages to 21 by passing the National Minimum Drinking Age Act and the great hero of States Rights, Reagan singed the bill into law--proving he did pretty stupid things as well.

Under this law the great Imperial Federal Government used the great organized crime tactic of extortion. Make your drinking age what we say it should be or we will take your highway money from you. States of course complied--and who cares what the 10th Amendment and the framers wanted. And in South Dakota v. Dole, the idiotic SCOTUS agreed that it was constitutional to use blackmail against the states--the decision authored by William Rehnquist, who thankfully is no longer with us.

And thankfully of the six others that agreed with him, only two remain on the court.


edna
Why not address my point? It's a valid one, despite my not taking time to proof read my posts.

edna
In case you forgot it, it was the following:

"How about this argument: "If 18 year olds can drink, whu can't they fight for their conutry as well? "

Ken
I would have no problem with it.
Women have served this country since before the Revolutionary War and will continue to do so in whatever capacity is deemed proper for their talents.
Remember..
Molly Pitcher,Abigail Adams and Clara Barton,
and the many others that have come since.

Granted men may have more physical power but women as a rule are better shots.


edna
OK, OK, "why" and "country".

Sorry Ken
If you are old enough to be drafted into a stupid war--I know there is no draft, but 18 year olds are still required to register, then you are old enough to drink.

Oh and Georgia allowed its citizens to vote at 18 in 1946.

If some grunt can drink stateside at 18 or 19, so can everyone else. Nothing special about some PFC at Fort Gordon. If 18 year old minds are too immature to drink, then it being in the military doesn't change this fact. Oh and spare me the claim that being in the military makes you more mature--I can point to a dead marine and Iraqi veteran who died on the streets of Atlanta via a gunshot that shows that isn't true.

Chucky
Take the TIME to read my posts and your point is addressed.

18 year-olds
in the military can drink on base (3.2 beer)

akagi
"I know there is no draft, but 18 year olds are still required to register, then you are old enough to drink."

Women aren't required to register for the draft at any age. Should they be prohibited from drinking?

edna
"I would have no problem with it."

Good for you. Now here's my next question: are you still young enough to be eligible for the draft?

Chucky
The post is the one where you noticed I addressed your lack of proofreading as you put it. Ken asked the same question.

Michigander
Wow, we finally agree on something.

Grunts on base
"18 year-olds in the military can drink on base (3.2 beer)."

That is not the point. The point is that people claim that 18 year olds aren't mature enough to handle the responsibilty of drinking. If that is true, then they can't handle the responsibility of being in the military at all. I then propose that all people under 21 now in the US military be separated from the service post haste. Such an activity is far too dangerous to be put in the hands of children.

Ken
No, sadly to say I'm not, I'm 47, too old for service. I did go to enlist at 18 though I didn't sign up. I wanted to be a medic and in 1978 women weren't allowed. so I became a firefighter paramedic instead.
I would allow my 7 year old daughter to sign up if the law required it.
No, I'm not a hypocrite.

edna
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to discuss this further with you due to the constraints of work, but you really did not address my point because I don't really think you understood it.

Addressing everything according to the letter of the law instead of understanding the motivations undergirding the law, is how we got into these problems in the first place.

Didn't we learn anything from the failures of the Old Testament? There's more to consider in these questions than "is it Constitutional"?

That's probably why I will never be a Libertarian.


Ken
Grow a brain. We aren't talking about gender are we? If you want to make a claim that women's brians don't mature until 21 or 25 and the drinking age for them should be 21 or 25, then we can discuss this, but that is not the subject at hand. The claim is that 18 year olds (and read this slow) O F A N Y G E N D E R are too immature to drink, if that is true then no person not at least 21 should be allowed to serve in the military due to the fact they aren't mature enough, because if you aren't mature enough to drink, you aren't mature enough to handle weapons with live rounds. Oh and Ken while they don't have to register for the draft, they still serve--how old was Jessica Lynch--19? 20?


edna
"No, I'm not a hypocrite."

I never said you were. However, it's easy to say you favor the draft when you're no longer eligible for it.

Anyway, I respect your consistency, even thought I don't agree with you. Unfortunately, many people support lowering the drinking age, but they still want to exempt women from the draft. I find that terribly hypocritical. Rights must be balanced with responsibility.

One last point:

"I would allow my 7 year old daughter to sign up if the law required it."

You can't be serious!





Ken
I was hasty...LOL
I meant in 11 years when she became 18.
I have 2 adult sons also remember I encouraged them to enlist they made their own choices.

Yes, as a mom I would cry my heart out if they died but I also believe in duty, honor and Country.
I thank god they're now home safe.

The last paragraph
rules, or at least should. A page of history (reality, facts and results) is worth more than a volume of theory, (wishful thinking, so-called logical arguments). Prohibition doesn't work, so mercifully, we repealed it. A drinking age oo 21 prevents deaths as compared toa drinking age of 18. What decent person could possibly drag in arguments about 18 year old soldiers, fairness or other red herrings?

Edna
"I was hasty...LOL. I meant in 11 years when she became 18."

Was I about to rip into you for that one! Thanks for the clarification.

Military
"A drinking age oo 21 prevents deaths as compared toa drinking age of 18. What decent person could possibly drag in arguments about 18 year old soldiers, fairness or other red herrings?"

First, there is no evidence that the law has saved lives. DUIs for that age group have fallen since 1984, but so has for all other groups. The law encourages binge drinking and illegal activity--the very fact of drinking being illegal. The reason the subject of the military is brought up is the claim by MADD and others that the 18 year old mind is too immature to drink. Okay, good. If so, then they are too immature for the military well.

I am not decent.

Drink Up, Sissy
Your argument may be correct base don the statistics you cite -- I trust you are honest with them as i have neithe rthe time nor resources to verify them. Nevertheless, i would support lowering the drinking age to 18 for one and only one reason: To stick it to MADD, a fascist, politically correct, guilt imposing, accusacotry group of self-righteous bigots.

Drinking & driving is a bad thing w/ horrible consequences but MADD's bullying tactics are hose sh*t.

Ken
OOPS...No, I'm not a zealot...LOL
Glad I could set the record straight

Freedom for Scoundrels
H. L. Mencken said, "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

Irresponsible drinkers undoubtedly fall into the scoundrel category. Some first offenses just can't be prevented without entering into opressive territory. Freedom requires the freedom to fail, and requires the responsibility of accepting the consequences of one's own choices.

However, I also believe an individual's freedom ends where it starts to infringe on another's freedom. That marks the line that should be vigorously defended in both directions. People should be allowed to freely drink, right up to the point when they endanger other people's lives by their actions. After that, they should be dealt with harshly.

Akagi
I notice you never answered my question. Do you think women ought to be required to register for the draft?

Ken
"I notice you never answered my question. Do you think women ought to be required to register for the draft?"

The reason for that is it was a stupid question and had nothing to do with any arguement I posted on this subject. You could also ask me what I thought about Gaoliang production on Kinmen too and it too has nothing to do with the subject.

But to answer your question--no. I do not think they should.

JamesB
It depends on which branch of the military you are in. When I was in the Navy the Navy policy was to conform to State law. So when I was stationed in MD in 1971 I could not drink in a Navy club but I could drive over to the Aberdene Proving Grounds NCO club and drink there because the Army used 18 regardless of State law. I do not know what the Air Force did.

The college presidents have it right
Ban things and you get the opposite of what your intent was. Lowering the drinking age will equal less binge drinking and more responsibility on the part of the students. As usual, the dumb reaction is gosh, raise the age to 25 if there is a problem. What nonsense. Bring the drinking out into the open. Period. It's happening all the time! It's crazy to think it can be regulated by these abstract laws. Kids get around all of the rules that get put up. Fake ID's abound! You make the kids creative crooks with this silly 21 drinking law. You make the schools have to pretend it's not going on. Get it out into the open. Sunshine and the end to hipocracy about what is going on all the time will improve, not hurt.

in a foxhole with a drunk

Chucky Location: ME
Reply # 38
Date: Aug 21, 2008 - 10:08 AM EST
edna
"If 18 year olds can die for their country why can't they have a cold beer in the sandbox of the theater they're fighting in."

How about this argument: "If 18 year olds can drink, whu can't they fight for their conutry as well? "

========
But who, wants to be in a foxhole with a drunk soldier, would you feel safe?

Even with a drunk female solider, and certainly not with a Qu*er solider.

There is no evidence that raising or
lowering the drinking age has any impact on youths drink or youths drinking and driving.

If you look at the charts I posted earlier you will see that youth drinking was already going down BEFORE the law was passed and likewise for drinking and driving. That is if you believe these "surveys" that the government does. As someone else has already posted actual DUIs in all age chategories are going down.

That is because MADD has been successful in one thing. You can hold a liquor store with a knife and get off easier than if you purchased and consumed a bottle of liquor and drove away to get caught.

From my experience most teenage males start drinking around the age of 15 or 16. Passing a "law" has little impact. I was able to get liquor when I was 17 in a dry county back in the 60s where you were not supposed to be able to buy anything regardless of age. All you had to do was know a bootlegger.

A little confused here
I frankly am not sure where I stand on the drinking age issue. We allowed our young underage Marine a bottle of beer when home on leave (from Iraq), but only at home within the framework of the family, particularly at dinner. We honestly could not see and still don't why a young man willing to put it all on the line for his country cannot enjoy a cold one or two.

Any of our kids "close enough" to 21 can have a glass of wine at Christmas and other holiday feasts. Otherwise, no. We do not abstain but we drink only in moderation.

What are the alcohol-related death statistics for Europe? I'm asking because wine etc is such an ingrained part of their culture and so far as I know there is no drinking age there.

Lawn Darts any one?
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." ~ Thomas Jefferson

If you think that he was talking about anything that would be “injurious to others”, then everything would be illegal. In fact, life would be illegal, since it is the number one cause of death.

He was talking about intentional injury to others. “It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

The down side to freedom is that you have the freedom to screw up. Your life, your choices, your consequences (sometimes those that are around you, too). Yes, accidents happen. Get over it! The government shouldn’t even have banned lawn darts. If you don’t want something that dangerous, don’t buy it. If you do want to buy them, remember that, like the rest of the natural world, the slow and stupid are weeded out.

If you think that making laws will prevent people from doing things that are bad for them, take a look at the prohibition of alcohol, an utter failure. Prohibition of drugs, how’s that been working out? Our prisons are overfilled, many of them in there for substance abuse. Great idea!

Man, I sure wish we had a constitution that limited the federal government to very specific things it could do. Then we’d only have the local and state governments to deal with.

"It has been said that all Government is an evil. It would be more proper to say that the necessity of any Government is a misfortune. This necessity however exists; and the problem to be solved is, not what form of Government is perfect, but which of the forms is least imperfect." ~ James Madison

"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." ~ James Madison

Aliveinhim
The link I posted earlier has individual drinking ages.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

In the old days they had no set drinking age just as we did. Now there are few countries with no age. Some have 16, most have 18, but the U.S. is the ONLY one with an age as high as 21.

Of course we could be like the countries controlled by the Mullahs. They have no drinking age either. They have no drinking.

Vic: "people no longer support...
... the Constitution or freedom."

I think it's more an ignorance of the US Constitution and the reasoning behind it.

If they were taught why we had the "least imperfect” government, and the arguments against all the past and present governments, then they would know how good we had it. Who thought it was a good idea for the government to teach our kids?

"The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position." ~ George Washington

TrentDJ
While it is true that most people are generally ignorant of the Constitution, I think it goes further than that. Over the past 50 years we have seen a steady decline in individual freedom. The government regulates things now that they wouldn’t have dared to try.

If the federal government had tried to order the States to a mandatory minimum drinking age 100 years ago we would have had another civil war. It through in 1984 with very little protest from anyone. The reduction in the assumed driving while impaired reduction to 0.08 BAC stirred almost no comment either. The only one that stirred up any comment was the “motor voter scam”. The feds had found that “highway funds” blackmail scheme worked for a variety of encroachments. Even the 55 mph speed limit used the same method. I do believe one State out West actually fought that one and the feds backed off. All it would take is one State with the gumption to take it to SCOTUS and all of these laws would fall apart.

But no State has the desire to do it because the citizens don’t seem to care. Look at the example here. A supposed small government conservative pundit is pushing the federal usurpation of the minimum drinking age based on faulty reasoning and bad science.

BTW
The way things are going now in another 100 years we will not have any State governments. They have already become redundant and just another tax to be paid for duplicating federal law.

Steve Chapman is...
... proof that paternalistic, nanny-staters are not a problem exclusive to liberalism.

A symptom of a bigger problem
The fixation we are having about college age drinking is probably overlooking a bigger problem…

How in the h3ll do people in college have enough time to be doing so much drinking? Instead of debating the merits of drinking age, maybe we should be focusing on making college more rigorous… or putting the partying drunks to work and earning a living.

I think we have a serious problem when we can have such a large portion of the youth population with so much free time that they can plan keg parties all the time. I bet 70% of the college population would be better off studying harder, or productively working, instead of being warehoused in an extended adolescent life of leisure.

GET TO THE D@MN LIBRARY or go GET A JOB!

Vic
who will enforce parking laws if there are no state governments?

;-)

Johnnyp
The feds will take that over as well. But since the city government doesn't get highway tax dollars they'll have to find another dodge.

But wait, they doget highway tax dollars. The Dems pushed through that 20% slice to urban mass transit. Oh well, they were looking to the future.

Federal parking laws and tickets.

From my experience
I am just old enough to remember when AK's limit was 21. I was 12, I think. I was already drinking (sips from my parents' beers when I was in diapers), so the drinking age didn't bother me very much. Soon as it dropped, the college campus immediately installed a pub. The benefit of the lower drinking age was that clerks were much more likely to not ask for ID, making it a lot easier to purchase alcohol under age. I'm told by alumni of the college I attended that there was underage drinking on campus when they were there, but you had to walk down the hill in the cold to buy it and so, well, even 21 year olds didn't always bother. But with the drinking age 19 and the pub on campus -- one of the first things I noticed as a freshman were all the bags hanging from dorm windows, chilling the brewskis. Drinking was very open; the pub was hopping most nights. Then they raised the drinking age to 21 (I was 20, but grandfathered) and the pub was suddenly empty. People started checking IDs. Did underage drinking decrease? It made it harder to get alcohol. It made me as a 20-year-old more aware that I was providing booze to minors. Honestly, I don't think most 21's can hold their liquor all that well, but they sure hold it better than 18 year olds. So, no, I don't think it's a good idea to lower the drinking age. Having it in the open at UAF certainly didn't make it a safer activity. Two students died my sophomore year (drinking age was 19) of binge drinking. I can't recall a single similar death in the last 10 years. Does that have anything to do with the drinking age? Maybe and before we throw away what might be an advantage to keeping stupid teens alive until they become mature adults, I think we should be sure we know what we're doing. The experiment of lowering the age was a dismal failure last time; why do we think it will be better this time round?

Johnnyp
All that binge drinking Animal House reputation fora lot of these colleges is just more press hype. It doesn't go on to the extent that they make it seem.

And if the fraternities and sororities did have an occasional kegger that would be preferable to them driving around with phony ID's searching for a bar that they can get in to.

I suspect that is what the colleges are just now figuring out. They can't allow drinking in the dorms or fraternity houses until the law is changed or they become party to law breaking and susceptible to being sued.

The larger question is ...
Do they need to drink? For personal family reasons, I took my last drink about 16 years ago. I am not an alcoholic, but I know a few, and I could not in good conscience tell them not to drink while bending my own elbow. Personal choice. Because of family history on both sides, I encourage my children never to drink. That would be like playing Russian roulette with two bullets in their gun. One thing that 16 years of unrequired sobriety has shown me is that drinking alcohol is not a necessity. I manage to have a good time, often a BETTER time, without alcohol. Did I need alcohol as a teen? I thought I did. My culture said I did. Even after becoming a Christian, that was a part of my secular lifestyle I didn't give up for a long time.

My daughter's 15. She and her friends don't drink (yes, I know they could be lying, but our house is a major hangout, so I think we'd catch them if they were). She says alcohol smells like embalming fluid and that pot smells like burning cat nip. She's unimpressed with arguments that you need these enhancements to have a good time. So, the question is, do 18, 19 and 20-year-olds really NEED to be drinking? Why? Last I looked alcohol was something we do for recreation and recreation is a matter of choice. Do we really need to send the message to these young people that they can't live without alcohol so we're going to make it available to them? That's the argument of a non-recovering alcoholic -- that they NEED it. Do our young people really NEED it? And, if they don't, then why make it legal for them to have it? Just wondering.

Vic
But my question is still going unanswered.

Why do these "kids" have so much free time?

I bet the amount of alcohol and frequency of binge drinking is highly correlated with the chosen major of study.

While the accounting, engineering, and economics students are in study group or the library, the education, and journalism majors are at a keg party.

We need to stop the practice of extending adolescence into the adult years.

Turning universities into extended adult summer camps is destructive on many fronts.

1) We have adults who are not being productive members of society. These adults are still latched onto the “parental tit” when they should either be working, or building human capital.
2) Having a large population of people (students and faculty) pretending to do academic work distracts everybody from the reason the institution exists in the first place.
3) Our university/college population (again, students and faculty) is way oversized. Many many people who do not have the brain-power or academic inclinations drag down standards.

My brother is a economics professor with 20 years experience… and he says he is ecstatic if he gets 3 out of 30 students who can form a complex thought.

Johnnyp
I thought I had answered it. For the most part all these supposed drinking binges are not occurring.

Sure there are a few kids who do nothing but party as well as more who don’t drink at all. The ones who do nothing but party are not long for the college. LOL, they go on double secret probation and get kicked out.

And yes, those people who go to college and take serious courses don’t have time to party hardy, but they still will go out and unwind after the end of the week.

aurorawatcher: The larger question is...
I think that question is irrelevant. Whether they NEED a drink is a personal choice. The question is, should the federal (national?) government be deciding that question for them. That would be a big NO! Even if you believe that the government should set some boundaries, it should be the state or local government.

With 50 state, you have 50 laboratories to better see what works, and what doesn't work.


"Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a FEDERAL, and not a NATIONAL constitution." ~ James Madison

"Another not unimportant consideration is, that the powers of the general government will be, and indeed must be, principally employed upon external objects, such as war, peace, negotiations with foreign powers, and foreign commerce. In its internal operations it can touch but few objects, except to introduce regulations beneficial to the commerce, intercourse, and other relations, between the states, and to lay taxes for the common good. The powers of the states, on the other hand, extend to all objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, and liberties, and property of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the state." ~ Joseph Story

Johnnyp
These posts reminded me of something that I saw about 20 years ago. I was working on a project at NC State with their nuclear department. As I walked across the campus from the parking lot I passed the dorms where the football players stayed. They had had a football game the night before (mid-week game) and then partied after it was over. They were lying through the doorways, out on the grass, and generally all over the place passed out at 09:00 a.m. This was after the drinking age had been raised. So if there was a group that was involved in binge drinking at the school I would say it was the football teams.

vic - football
ha ha.

I have said a time or two... the NCAA football champ selection criteria should include the average SAT score of the starting team. If that were the case, the three military academies would be in potential winners every year.

Do not get me started on how the NCAA and universities exploit athletes. It is shameful how thousands of athletes generate billions of dollars for the institution and end up with nothing. NCAA is a good example of a monopoly robber baron.

If parents and governments want adults to have several years of leisure, and then let’s have social camps (call it what it is). If universities are for education and academics, then keep things rigorous.

Johnnyp
I agree. They are exploited to the extent that even if they get a scholarship they generally don't take useful courses and the graduation rate is very low.

If they don't get to turn pro they are just SOL.

If I had my way there would be no organized sports in schools. We would follow the European model where individual clubs are formed by private groups.

No acohol for me #1


Do you think I care one whit if a so called, but too stupid to be a student, kills himself while drinking. I feel the same for him as I do for the idiots who crashes a junk car while racing around a track in the rain, and I am less sorry for the idiots who to paid to sit there, then got killed by the wreck.

My questions why drink at all? From all that I have been told, read, and observed, all, and I do mean all drinkers become stupid, I have never observed one improvement in a human after they had a drink.

I left home and have been on my own since the tender age 15. I matched in the HS bank, the Ohio State Guard Band, and others, without the need to make a fool of my self and drink junk that smelled just like the pigs.

I was halfway around the world in the Merchant Marine, by age 17. They kept the booze under my bunk, because then knew it was safe there. I have been in the US Army twice, and spent a few months at college.

One of the reason I left College was because it was obvious most were there to drink, and to complain about the money they had to spend on education, when they would rather spend it on a party.


No acohol for me #2

In my dating days, my Sweetie never drank a drop, nor the 55 years we were married. Our friends knew they would leave our home sober, we never spent a penny on alcohol. So just look at the thousands of dollars we saved at home, in a restaurant, but I spend even less in a bar, as I would visit only when forced to by a business arrangement, buy myself a Coke, and spend the evening drinking my Coke, and not spending another cent.

When we visited Vegas with friends, could you imagine the waiter's tray with four Cokes for each of us.

I certainly would not want to have a date with a woman who drinks, then stinks like a sow. I know liquor is quicker, but love is better.

Well I did have an alcohol problem for a while in my life. Once when I took my Beautiful Sweetie to a nice restaurant in Palm Springs, they placed a glass of wine in front of each diner. Never having tasted it before, I touched it with the tip of my tongue, and it took 10 minutes to get rid of that awful taste.

In business, for 25 years I was a salesman and trainer in the computer business. I hosted a 1,000 lunches and dinners, spent thousands of expense dollars for booze, but not a cent of my money was ever spend on alcohol.


drinking age?
I got over the trill of drinking at the age of 15... after two parties. Drinking to get drunk seems stupid to me.

From 15 to 28 I was too busy... work, then the Army, then college, then work.

Now I enjoy maybe 20 beers per month.

Who needs a fake ID in college
Until colleges physically separate students who are over the drinking age from students who are under the drinking age, it won’t make a bit of difference in the dorms/residence halls. I was 17 when I started college in 1987 and there were always people in my dorm who were over 21. So anytime I wanted something to drink, I just walked down the hall, asked a 21+ year old when they were going to the store next and gave them some money to pick me something up.

So go ahead, keep it the same or lower the age to 18,19,20. It won’t make one bit of difference on a college campus.

Mrs. Grundy
The people who push these kinds of laws were described by Robert Heinlein as the Mrs. Grundy’s of the world. Their biggest worry was that someone somewhere was having a good time and it was their moral duty to assure that it was stopped.

Vic
Thanks for the link!

I remember having my first adult beverage in Wyoming where the legal age was 19 (I was 20 and still a new bride).

Imagine yours truly at the Cowboy Bar in Jackson Hole, sitting in a saddle stool and having a vodka tonic, feeling all grown up.

Yikes. :/

Aliveinhim
You're welcome.

Ah Wyoming. I have been doing some research on Wyoming. Some of the folks were posting about Worland and I checked it out. Taxes on everything there are a lot lower than here. Also it appears that house prices are about the same and maybe a little lower.

Currently the city limits here are trying to expand out to get my neigborhood and I am thinking of moving.

The only drawback I see to Wyoming is that it gets COLD there in the Winter.

Beer taxes there are the lowest in the nation at 0.02 cents per gal. They are .77 cents here.

Vic
I couldn't swear to the tax level but since the population of the entire state runs around a million or so I'd think it'd be cheap enough to live there, housing-wise and tax-wise.

The only thing is the wind. At least every time I've been there (southern part of the state; Baggs, Rock Spgs-they are closest to where I'm at) it never stops blowing. No wonder they had a lower drinking age, LOL!

Where in Wyoming were you thinking of moving?


JUST SAY NO!!
Kids get into their parents liquor stash. Older students get alcohol for underage students. Regardless of the age you make legal to drink will not matter. They will get it some how, some way.

I do think that there needs to be better security on college grounds. I think a student should be suspended if found drinking, no matter what the age. We need strict regulations on this matter.

The important thing is to stop the drinking period. I'm for a no drinking policy on/off every campus. College is for learning, and getting yourself ready to have a prosperous future. It is not party central.

Many kids become alcoholics because of the availability of alcohol on college campuses, parents cabinents,and high school parties. They leave home in good health, and turn into alcoholics within a few months. And many say that alcoholism is a disease. NOT!

You don't see bottles of cancer, MS, CF, MD, and other diseases on the shelves of your local grocery store to purchase and take as directed. These diseases show up in so many people, and so many have not yet been figured out as to why.

But as for alcoholics, the answer is right there on the shelf. Alot of kids take their first drink in high school and college. Then party after party they go to, and drink more and more becoming addicted, just like drugs and cigarettes.

I was not born with a craving for cigarettes and drugs. But, thanks to peer pressure, and my weakness, I gave in and tried them, and was hooked after only a week. Thank God I quit several years ago.

If only there was no such thing as alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and so on. These ADDICTIONS would not be a part of life.

SAY NO TO DRUGS. SAY NO TO ALCOHOL. Being part of the party crowd is a NO WIN situation.

Aliveinhim
I was looking at Worland which is further North but only because that is what the posters were talking about.

It's all just a pipe dream right now but if the city limits gets me it may escalate.

Time to go
I'll check back in tommorow.

Let's see...
Here in Iowa, they raised the speed limit "because they were already going 70" (Now they go 75)...

They want to raise the drinking age because "they're already doing it"...

What's next? We'll make murder legal because "they're already doing it"?

For those that want to lower the drinking age, I think you need your heads examined.

Just a question here for everyone else here to think about: Alcohol is a drug. You parents who drink, how can you expect your children to not do drugs? Set an example; your kids just may be smart enough to follow. (54, never had so much as a beer)


S.A.M.
You're right. I quit drinking to support an alcholic relative in his struggle, but I stayed quit because my children were born and they need a good role model. And, yeah, raise the speed limit and they go faster. Lower the drinking age and they'll drink younger. In AK, they've made it a condition of keeping a liquor license that stores must ID EVERYONE. Not just the young looking people, but the grandmothers. People grumble about it, but I asked someone who is a weekend liquor store clerk if he catches kids when he cards. Oh, yeah! he responded. And, in almost every case, he would have guessed them as older than they were, but for that DOB on their ID.

Again, alcohol is NOT food. You can live without it. I work in the social work field and the SA counselors and docs all say that the younger a kid starts drinking the more likely he is to develop alcoholism. So, it behooves us for the good of individuals and for the protection of society to not give into the college pub lobby.

We do know that's what's driving this, right? Why else would college presidents want to discuss lowering the drinking age? I worked for the U newspaper when the drinking age was raised and one of my colleagues did an article on the impact on revenue at the pub, which was included in the student center budget. Revenues nearly halved. Bowling, ping-pong and french fry revenues increased over time, but they were not nearly as lucrative as booze.

Drink and die, as far as i am concerned


Isn’t that interesting, never yet has anyone admitted or bragged as to why they spend their money and their life drinking.

Probably you are all ashamed of what you do, the money you spend, and the awful things you do while drunk. You ladies, I guess I can use that term because you may be reading this while sober, why do you think they say, “Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.” So don’t say it is ever rape if you are not sober. That’s why you aren’t sober, your fault or theirs.

My main claim to fame, is that one time I caused a drinker to stop. At Ft. Monmouth, during winter ‘50, one man came back to the barracks most every night, so drunk he could not get up to steps to the building. He would be lying there, and some would help him into bed. I would never help.

One snowy, raining, freezing night when I returned to the barracks, the Sgt. in charge said, here help me. I said nothing doing, let him alone. When others arrived and asked the Sgt. to help, he said forget it, let him alone.

Finally he was able to move enough to have someone call the medics, and he returned to the barracks after a few days very bad in the hospital.

He was shocked, shocked, to hear that no one would help him into his bed, and was absolutely floored when everyone unanimously said, never again, you just lie there until whatever happens.

Within a couple weeks he was a new man, and no one ever saw him drink again. And yes, he did thanks us.

Well that’s my opinion of any one who is drunk, lay there forever.

If you are a drunk driver who crashed into a tree, let’s hope the tree won.

If you injured anyone, die, right now.

Yes I know, I need aspirin because my halo is too tight sometimes.

Chapman is Wrong
The best reason to lower the drinking age? How about the existence of inalienable rights.

Forget about the military service analogy. If an 18 year old is deemed responsible enough for his own behavior to be tried, convicted, and punished for murder and other felonious acts (i.e. as an "adult"), then he must be presumed responsible enough to purchase alcohol.

Whether any legally defined adult, age 18 or otherwise, will responsibly exercise his rights is a moot point, for the simple reason that when one is presumed to be an adult, one is entitled under the natural law to the same rights as other adults, until or unless his behavior causes him to do something to forfeit those rights (such as committing a felony).

Applying Chapman's rationale to its logical conclusion, why not just raise the drinking age to 35? I will tell you why not. Because law-abiding adults have an inalienable right to the same treatment as other law-abiding adults.

End of story.

Vic: Blackstone on sobriety
Given that the Framers were very fond of Blackstone and his 'Commentaries,' I am not as inclined to believe that they would react to a minimum drinking age with contempt if the youth of yore were similar to those of today.

One main distinction is that during their time, a majority of the people possessed self-discipline. I do not see that as a characteristic of most youth today.

"Let a man therefore be ever so abandoned in his principles, or vitious in his practice, provided he keeps his wickedness to himself, and does not offend against the rules of public decency, he is out of the reach of human laws. But if he makes his vices public, though they be such as seem principally to affect himself, (as drunkenness, or the like) they then become, by the bad example they set, of pernicious effects to society ; and therefore it is then the business of human laws to correct them. Here the circumstance of publication is what alters the nature of the café. Public sobriety is a relative duty, and therefore enjoined by our laws : private sobriety is an absolute duty, which, whether it be performed or not, human tribunals can never know; and therefore they can never enforce it by any civil sanction. But, with respect to rights, the café is different. Human laws define and enforce as well those rights which belong to a man confidered as an individual, as those which belong to him confidered as related to others."

Book I, Chapter I

Blackstone, amongst many other greats, can be read here:
http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/index.html

Lower the age if you want, but I would love to see it attached to the achievement of a high school diploma at the very least.

Norman
Could it be that youth of today act the way they do because they are treated the way they are?

And you miss my major point here. It's not simply a matter of the drinking age per se. It is a matter of the Federal Gov telling the States what that age will be. Not only is this "authority" not in tyhe Constitution as an annumerated power, but in the repeal of the prohibition amendment the Consitution states that the State will determine the laws.

My point; THESE LAWS ARE BLATENTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Second point, a lot of people like you don't care because it satisfies your idea of what people should and should not be able to do.

why is this a federal issue?
I don't see anything in the Constitution about a federal drinking age. The states are perfectly capable of making these laws. They are not the kind of laws that must be federal in order to make sense.

To the contrary, they address exactly the kind of issue that can be dealt with on a state level, with the results of each state helping other states determine what they want to do. So the right answer is to follow the freaking Constitution, and just as with most other potentially criminal acts, allow the states to make these rules. Some may take the age to 25, and others may go the route of most of Europe (where drinking is a non-issue, btw).

Reply to eagle
In response to your name calling about this group. At least their trying to get the ignorant people who choose to drink and drive to suffer more severe punishment, or better yet,get'em off the streets for good.

After all, those moms whose children were killed by the stupity, and multiple offences of drunk drivers will suffer the rest of their lives, while the drunks go on drinking and driving.

I know what it's like to lose a child. No one will ever suffer a worse pain than that. So keep on fighting MADD, and making the laws more severe for the ones who choose to break the law, and murder innocent, unsuspecting, loving, children, and their families.
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