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Sunday, June 29, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
How Gun Control Lost
by Steve Chapman
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Thomas Jefferson once wrote, pessimistically, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." He would probably not have been surprised to see the proliferation of gun control laws in our time. But he might not have anticipated that the water would run back uphill.

Thursday's Supreme Court decision affirming that the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right to own firearms for self-defense was a vindication of those who have long argued that position. But it was an even more stunning defeat for advocates of gun control, who not so long ago seemed to have history, law and public sympathy on their side. Back then, they couldn't have dreamed that the Supreme Court would say, "You know what? The National Rifle Association is right."

In the 1980s and 1990s, as violence raged at epidemic levels, the preferred remedy of policymakers was to restrict the manufacture, sale and ownership of firearms. Washington, D.C. had banned handguns in 1976, and in 1982, Chicago did likewise, prompting several of its suburbs to follow suit.

New York required anyone who wanted a handgun to acquire a special permit, which was expensive and hard to get. Meanwhile, the federal government and several states outlawed "assault weapons" -- semiautomatic guns with a military appearance.

It looked as though ever-stricter gun control was the wave of the future. But the future had different ideas. What happened? Three main things:

--Gun control didn't work. In the 1990s, despite its draconian ban, Washington became the murder capital of the United States. Chicago's homicide rate, which had been declining in the years before it banned handguns, climbed over the following decade. Gun control didn't work.

During the time the federal assault weapons law was in effect, the number of gun murders declined -- but so did murders involving knives and other weapons. When the law was allowed to expire in 2004, something interesting happened to the national murder rate: nothing.

--Laws allowing concealed weapons proliferated -- with no ill effects. In 1987, Florida gained national attention -- and notoriety -- by passing a law allowing citizens to get permits to carry concealed handguns. Opponents predicted a wave of carnage by pistol-packing hotheads, but it didn't happen. In fact, murders and other violent crimes subsided. Permit holders proved to be sober and restrained.

People elsewhere took heed, and today, according to the NRA, 40 states have "right-to-carry" laws. As those laws have spread, the homicide rate has fallen sharply from the peak reached in 1991.

--The Second Amendment got a second look. In 1983, a San Francisco lawyer named Don Kates published an article in the University of Michigan Law Review arguing that, contrary to prevailing wisdom in the judiciary and law schools, the Constitution upholds an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Numerous legal scholars, spurred to examine the record, reached the same surprising conclusion. Before long, even some liberal law professors were coming around.

In 2000, Harvard's Laurence Tribe published a new edition of his influential constitutional law textbook, asserting that the Second Amendment had an undeniable meaning: "The federal government may not disarm individual citizens without some unusually strong justification consistent with the authority of the states to organize their own militias. That assurance in turn is provided through recognizing a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes…"

The majority opinion last week, written by Justice Antonin Scalia, drew heavily on this stack of scholarship to argue that the framers did not limit the right to the context of service in a state militia. Without the stimulus provided by these contrarian thinkers, the decision would never have come to pass. And the Second Amendment would have remained what it was for so long: a curious irrelevancy.

Instead, the right to keep and bear arms has finally taken its rightful place with our other fundamental liberties. It may be the natural course of things for government control to expand and freedom to shrink. But as Jefferson knew, America was founded to reverse that process.

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Still Work to Do
Now it's time to take on those states like New Jersey that impose arbitrary restrictions on ownership (Firearms ID) and near total bans on carry permits for Governor Corzine's subjects.

Prayers
When confronted with contradictions between your beliefs and facts, wise people revisit their assumptions. Not so for liberals.

No amount of their failures and contradictions between their beliefs and facts dissuade them from their agendas. Gun control is perhaps the best case.

Some truly belief their fallacies. Those are the proletariats, the followers. Their leaders know the truth about guns, that they protect the law abidding and keep us free. And that's what's making them furious with this decision. Now they will have to work ever harder to enslave us.

It never was about the safety of innocent lives. Liberal elites don't live with us. They live in gated, exclusive, non inclusive neighborhoods. They could care less how many of us shoot each other. They fear our guns because guns protect us from liberals.

Thank God for Justice Scalia and his gang of four. Praise the Lord. And praise also Armalite, Bushmaster, DSA, S&W, Beretta, DPMS, Springfield Arms, FNH, Glock, H&K, SIG Arms, CZ, Kimber, Stag Arms, Century Arms, Colt, and all the other great arms manufacturers who provide the things that will keep us free from the tyranny of the Left.

Hopefully, all of us will get to use them in the next revolution.

Look out all you metro sexual communist vermin. We've got bazookas on our hips and we're coming to get ya'.

Gun Control
Don't support your shooting hand as in the photo attached to this article unless you are for some strange reason afraid that the recoil is going slam your hand into the pavement. This is not a whole lot better than the incredibly stupid "gangster style".

Lib's
Thomas Sowell wrote once:

"Like virtually every other liberal crusade, gun control is based on the assumption that other people lack common sense and must be controlled by the superior wisdom and virtue of the annoited."

Pretty much says it all for me...

Nice to see Chapman arguing like ...
a conservative for the first time in ages, instead of like a Daily Kos mole as he usually does. This column was very good.

Federalist paper #28
Everyone should read that one to see at least one founding fathers thoughts on gun rights. They all knew we needed a way to keep our freedom. It is even in the Declaration of Independence, that if government gets out of hand we need to have the right to abolish it. The time this law gets reversed (and I think it will in the future) is the time we will have to fight back. It is obvious by writings of their time that the founding fathers wanted the people to have the ability to overthrow the national government. Think we can do that without assault rifles? I think not. These gun laws in place still, are unconstitutional and should all be removed. "Shall not be infringed". For them to rule that the law applies to all citizens means that all gun laws are unconstitutional.

One Small Step...
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms Shall not be infringed."

infringe = breach or encroach. These words indicate that the farmers were saying "don't touch."

It is none of the government's damn business what firearms or ammunition I do or do not own; regardless of size, shape, caliber, rate of fire, range, velocity, performance metric, or burn rate.

The mere suggestion that a private citizen should be prohibited from purchasing or constructing, MUCH LESS forced to register said firearm with any government office is the very reason why we have a second amendment.

CKHustler and Ron Jones
Bingo! Shall NOT be Infringed! It seems pretty plain to me.

We Came Too Close To Losing the 2nd
This ruling came way, way too close for any sort of comfort. If for no other reason, we need to show up in massive numbers in November to make SURE Obama doesn't have the opportunity to add more liberal, socialist justices.

I cheer Governor Bobby Jindal of Louisiana for his response to the SCOTUS' ruling against the death penalty for child rapists, even though Louisiana legally wrote that law. Chemical castration was Jindal's response. Here's a no-nonsense leader, solving problems, making life better for the people in Louisiana; regardless of the SCOTUS.

Hope this wakes up a lot of Americans to touch base with the NRA; this fights isn't over by a long shot. These people are bound and determined to take America, but they need to disarm us first. The anti-gun movement has only backed off to regroup and come back and try to take our guns another day, by another ruse.

Gun Contro
I was very upset that the Supreme Court approved a person having a gun in their possession. A newspaper ad in the Sun-Sentinel in FL had guns, rifles & knives for sale what says that a teenager could have the wrong ID & kill friends or people when they are outraged. Many college students were mentally ill & had guns in their room that their parents didn't know about & killed teachers & students in a college. We must have surveilance & complete control w/the Secret Service, FBI & Officers of the Police or BSO Depts. to make sure crime is much less.

Learn the difference, Terry
between debate and primal scream. Then review the real history of CCW.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Read the Ruling!
Another person who has not read the ruling. This ruling is NOT the big victory that everyone is cheering about. You can see the work of Kennedy all over it.

First, it doesn’t apply to State gun control laws. The theory of incorporation was not addressed. (See the footnote on page 48)

Second off look at the dicta listed under “held”. The only “victory” that was gained is that federal laws that prohibit the ownership and maintenance at home of a handgun, rifle, or other “common” weapon are unconstitutional. It also held that:

Certain types of guns may be banned by the government.
Carrying guns concealed or in some locations may be prohibited.
The government may enact “reasonable” restrictions.
Government may regulate certain people and prohibit them from owning a gun. (did you know if you have been convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence that you can not own a gun?)

All of these fly right in the face of “shall not be infringed”. Currently a challenge has been entered in SF and Chicago to their gun control laws. It will take a while for those cases to matriculate through the system. I would not expect the 9th court to rule in favor of lifting the ban. They will pull out that footnote and wave it around for all to see, There is no telling what the 7th district will do in Chicago.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Supreme Court Ruling on Gun Ownership
The recent ruling doesn't mean that the state in which you live doesn't have anything to say about how you use your weapon. Personally, I believe that every responsible, adult should be required to learn how to properly use and store a weapon (handgun or otherwise). Well-trained civilians who obtain permits to carry a weapon would be the greatest deterent to crime in this country. Just keep in mind that when you are threatened calling the police and waiting for them to arrive may not be an option. You should know how to defend yourself and your family. And if the threat is life-threatening, don't be afraid to protect your life. Crime, as we know it, would plummet.

Rational behavior
"In the 1990s, despite its draconian ban, Washington became the murder capital of the United States."

Actually, DC's crime wave was aggravated by "its draconian ban." Criminals know where law-abiding citizens are armed and where they aren't. They also know that the DC police are run by an uninterrupted string of corrupt, incompetent, far-left mayors. Just like wolves or any other predators, criminals always prefer to attack defenseless prey.

never addressed
The SCOTUS waffled on the meaning of the whole 2nd Amendment. They contradicted themselves. The only message they sent down was if you want gun control make sure your case is settled in the lower courts. That last part, Shall not be infringed, is going to wind its way up through the courts. Thats the next legal course. The sad part of this ruling is all the money that is going to be spent trying to get the court to define an amendment that is in plain language.
Anyone who can read knows the 2ND Amendment means you can have any armament you can carry, not just firearms. The framers were not stupid. They knew weapons would change in the future thats why they used the term, Arms.

Freedom and the coming fight
"The Second defends the rest."

It is not over. With the probable coming of the Messiah BHO will come new bans on what weapons we may keep; prohibitive taxes on the ammo we buy and hair brained "micro stamping" schemes. Look at the Senators, State Legistlators and 2nd Amendment supporting Governors we need to elect. They will be our only defense against BHO and his minions. "Vote Freedom First."

Be afraid, very afraid
Yes it is truly scary. The “majority” ruled that it is an individual right as the plain text illustrates. Therefore you get a ruling that looks like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The majority ruled that the preface only provides a reason and not limitations. Therefore you can eliminate the preface and you are left with:

THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

And yet they held that the federal government could infringe the right by controlling the type of arms, the method and places of “bearing” the arms, and the people who were eligible to bear the arms.

As I said in the earlier post they can and do limit who may own a gun. I don’t have too much of a problem with limiting felons, but the other classes of limits do have problems. In the case of mental illness it needs to be a clear cut case of adjudicated illness to the point that the individual is judge “not safe” and there should be a jury. In other words, they should get the same “due process” as the convicted felons got. The other problem is the Lautenburg amendment. This was passed for two reasons. First the communist who proposed it was looking for a boost from the femiminists over “domestic violence” and second he wanted as much of a gun ban as possible, This law made it illegal for people as low down on the crime list as “misdemeanors” to be banned from owned or carrying a weapon. It has even effected police and military because there was no exception made for them. There isn’t a lot of “due process” involved in a conviction of a misdemeanor.

And what is really scary is that it is more likely to get worse than it is to get better.

Nice article.
I understand the need to be vigilant.

It is in the nature, the DNA, of government to control, to limit, what the people can do.

Of course Thomas Jefferson is right.

But some pro 2nd Amendment folks are almost depressed on this ruliing.

Not me.

Yes, it did not invalidate some laws that place restrictions upon gun ownership.

But I don't particularly want an armed psychotic with a history of violent felonies living next door to me.

This ruling recognized the 2nd Amendment does apply to an individual's right to own a gun.

And that was a very important point.

And while the state can impose some restrictions upon that right, the USSC affirmed its legitimacy.

NO right is absolute.

The 1st Amendment does not give someone the right to scream "Fire" in a crowded theater.

I can live with this decision.

It ain't a reason to be depressed.

The next "reasonable" step
My husband and I are dedicating ourselves to buying one box of ammunition every pay day. I have no doubt that we will be seeing a plethora of laws mandating the quantity and caliber size of every purchase in America. Much like the laws on the books limiting how many bottles of Nyquil you can buy, we will have to pony up ID every time we go to buy a box of .22s or .38s or .45s or any other type of munitions.
The 2nd is definitely a reset button, it is to our credit that we have not used it yet.

Vic
the ruling was a scary one to me also. But my fear is that it was a 5 to 4 decision. That being said, the rest will fall on the shoulders of the States elected officials to outline what they consider to be the rights of the individuals in their State.
In other words, watch who we elect!

GUN LAWS
fRIENDS,
fLORIDA WAS NOT THE FIRST LAW TO HAVE RIGHT TO CARRY. it was Georgia back in 1978
IN FACT WE HAVE IMPROVED THE LAW SINCE THEN, AND, IN FACT JUST THIS YEAR WE ALLOWED PERSONS TO TAKE GUNS INTO PLACES OTHERWISE PREVIOUSLY PROHIBITED. PERSONS DO NOT HAVE TO TAKE TESTS, JUST PLUCK DOWN $30 OR SO EVERY 5 YEARS, TAKE A FINGER PRINT BEFORE THE PROBATE JUDGE. IF YOU PASS THE BRADY TEST YOU PASS THIS. ALSO IF YOU HAVE A RTC YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE BRADY NONSENSE..TOM BEVIRT

We must beware of end runs
around this decision. Becky made a good point about ammo.If the time comes where they make us sign to get it, they will have a database of who owns what and where it is, which is unacceptable.

CC permits must be universally accepted nationwide, it makes no sense that a law-abiding person becomes a potential criminal because the liberal fools in NJ pass laws against their own citizens best interest rather than going after the criminals who are the only ones with the guns.

My kids live there and to buy a gun of any type one must get permission from the local chief of police, if he doesn't like you or your politics, you don't get it and you have no recourse. Lovely system.

If obama gets in look for these folks to do anything they can think up to disarm us as the UN wants, we Americans with guns are the only thing standing in their way of getting their "new world order".

Our Bill of Rights
As I scan the comments here at TH, I am very pleased with how much I learn. However, what is this concept that the government somehow should issue a "permit" or a "license" allowing me to defend myself, my loved ones and my property with deadly vigor? This is not a Right for any government to grant or deny, it is my duty as a husband, a father, a man.

I continue to despise the Copperheads and the nebbish.

Gun Control
On the subject of gun control. First you steady yourself, then let out your breath, and then slowly squeeze the trigger while maintaining a good sight picture. That is the type of gun control I am in favor of.

BTW Chainsaw, the picture attached to the article shows the approved way to hold a pistol. It is not as you would suggest for show. The left hand is used to steady the right making it possible to maintain a steady sight picture. This method has been widely adopted by Law Enforcement and also Military shooters.

An Obscenity
That it came down to one vote by an appointed government official to affirm the God given right to self defense is testament to how far we have fallen. That these nine were never envisioned to hold this power is now irrelevant. Our freedoms are not in our hands but in the hands of the elites that rule from on high.

As big a disaster as George Bush has been this one decision makes up for all the bad. Had Roberts and Alito not been there to say the Constitution means what it says what would today look like?

We find ourselves ruled by nine monarchs in black robes. Who picks them is the most important choice we have to make on election day.

Dang it, Armalite
You left out Savage Arms. Grumble grumble....

If you must ask...
...for permission, it is not a right!

Individuals have rights. Governments have powers.

Our governments do not have the power to require licensure for gun ownership. Any restriction on the right of ordinary citizens to own or carry firearms is unconstitutional. Such legislation is not law at all, it merely masquerades as law.

The lawsuit which
brought forth the ruling on the 2nd amendment was long overdue, just as Brown vs School Board was long overdue. Big govt is constantly encroaching on the powers assigned by the constitution to the Feds. Only by constant legal protest can the constitution be re-asserted. The decision extending eminent domain, and McCain/Feingold are so patently unconstitutional they should be challenged through the courts. Where are the right wing big bucks folks who can and should be picking up the huge tab for this?

Supreme Dependents
We are not dependent on the Supreme Justices to interpret the U.S. Constitution. A literate populace can easily read and understand the language of the founders.

The Supreme Court is one of the three branches of government. It was intended to balance the power of the other two. It was not intended to be the final arbiter of law. That role is reserved for a jury of our peers.

Every freedom loving American needs to get over their foolish sense of impotence. As members of a jury we have the real power. By refusing to convict on bad law, we can override any executive order, any legislation, any court ruling.

Guns are good as a last resort, but don't give up your power to make peaceful progress toward freedom. All power resides with we the people. The framers said so. This nation was built upon that foundational idea. Take heart, liberty may yet prevail.

Explanation
If there are any individuals posting here today that have a background in Constitutional law, I have questions.

SCOTUS has apparently just affirmed that the second amendment is an individual right, that the DC gun ban was unconstitutional. I think thats the gist of the ruling? Would someone please explain how state, county, and local governments can continue to restrict access to guns in the face of this ruling? Are these governments not bound by the same Constitution?

It seems to me that these governments can't ignore the Constitution and deny rights. So what gives? I see posts this morning stating that state, county, and local governments can still do as they please. Anyone know why this ruling is now something less than an excellent victory for the 2nd?

Terry
Hey, I hear Castro or Hugo, or Great Britain or even Canada have room in their great gun control society’s. Down under in aussie land too. You may want to check the crime rates though, criminals, and goverments dearly love for citizens to be disarmed.
P.S. When you have to call the police because an armed man just broke into your house, scream like a girl to your armed neighbor first, he is a lot closer!
I always say,
Those who turn their swords into plowshares, will plow for those who don’t. And I am not pulling anyone’s plow!

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/


http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Norm
Check the link to the ruling on mu earlier post and look at the footnote on page 48 of the ruling.

Originally the bill of rights ONLY applied to the federal government. That is to say that these were limitations on what the federal government could do.

With the advent o0f the more liberal courts in the 20th century (primarily the Warren Court) the SCOTUS began the theory of incorporation. That is that the 14th Amendment in use of the term "freedom" incorporated the bill of rights into the States. The intent was these amendments now also applied to the States.

Most people having grown up in the 20th century believe that the bill of rights have always applied to the State and Local laws, but this is not the case. Prior to this theory of incorporation individuals were protected from State and local abuse by their State Constituion only.

So the bottomn line is, this ruling has NO IMPACT on State and Local laws, ONLY the DC and Federal law.

Rowly
A sad day for GA fans, Uga has passed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,373361,00.html

Vic
So in effect, what you are saying is that the second amendment and, as stated in the footnote, the first amendment etc. can be restricted by the states. So I could potentially live in a state as a US citizen and have no rights as guaranteed by the constitution? Effectively, the state can deny my rights and thats it?

That certainly doesn't seem right.

I assume you are a lawyer with some background in Constitutional law?

Any other opinions?

Irrelevant courts and constitutions.
The fundamental theory behind our government is: some truths are self-evident.

Among self-evident truths are some natural rights. Every human born possesses natural rights. The rights are inalienable.

One such right is self-defense. Any legislation, from any body, that purports to separate a human from a natural right is not a legal law. It is mere legislation posing as law.

Americans need only wake up to the facts, and the courts are relegated to their proper role of limiting the governments power over the people. All power rests with the people. The framers said so. That means the courts are inferior to the will of the people.

Do not misconstrue the above to mean that the people are all powerful either. No matter the number of people involved, rights remain inseparable from the individual. Neither a majority, nor a super-majority, nor a unanimity of those voting can separate a single individual from a single right.

No group of people, whether elected legislators, or appointed judges, at any level of government have authorization to deny the right of self-defense. The foundational principle behind our republic denies the very existence of such power, other than that which rests with the Creator.


Norm
The right to keep and bear arms can be restricted by the States because it has never been officially "incorporated" (for now).

The right of "free speech" can NOT be restricted by the States because it has been incorporated. In fact, it was the first to be incorporated.

I know this doesn't make any sense and it defies logic but that is what you get when you have liberal justices ruling based on outcome instead of the wording of the Consititution.

One other right that has never been incorporated is the right to an indictment by a grand jury. Not all States use the Grand Jury system.

And finally, no I am not a lawyer, but I have been studing Consitutional law for tha last 2 years since I retired.

If I was a lawyer you wouldn't get a straight. answer.


It Mean What It Says, Comprende?
No, it's not a total victory, but it's still heartening that SCOTUS can vote, albeit 5-4, to hold that an article of the Constitution, that empowers the people & limits the government, means what it says & can't be construed out of existence by torturous legal sophistries & "evolving standards."

The tide turned IMO on 'gun control' back in the 1990's after it looked inevitable that we'd be forbidden to own or use virtually any firearms by now. Why?

I say:
1. the bogus 'science' behind the 1990's gun control wave was refuted, in spite of endless stoopid articles in the JAMA & the NEJM. Even the pop media was forced to acknowledge that the 'studies' had been refuted.
2. The people spoke. They told the finger-waggers where to go. Pols who tried to waffle, fence-sit, & "compromise" on the issue got kicked to the curb, while others (e.g. Specter, the ur-RINO) faced worrisome challenges. I believe this issue in part drove the Republican takeover of Congress; it's a pity the GOP as a party is at best only marginally more pro-gun than Dems. Nonetheless, pols quickly learned this was a litmus test one cannot fail in most precincts.

The same model could work on other threats to our freedom, like "climate change" dogma & attacks on campaign speech.

Make no mistake, citizen disarmament is fundamental to the leftist agenda. If you're not 'good' boys & girls, the police (or their bosses) will just let the hoodlums run roughshod over you. The government doesn't have to send 'men in black' to intimidate dissidents, when the criminals will do the job for free & without exposing the hand of the ruling elite.

InsightingTruth
No matter the number of people involved, rights remain inseparable from the individual. Neither a majority, nor a super-majority, nor a unanimity of those voting can separate a single individual from a single right.

Right on, not even 9 in black robes.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Nobody is "safe" wit libtards!!!!
I shoot black powder. For the hoplophobic nimrods on this site that is loose black powder, the ancient mix of charcoal, sulphur and saltpeter first codified by Bacon. Screw the Chinese they used it for fireworks.

I shoot traditional guns only. NOT those "bubba guns" with stainless barrels, shotgun primer ignition and polycarbonate plastic stocks that take pelleted Pyrodex "powder" and approach the energy levels of the .30-30 lever guns. Those are known by their idiot owners as inlines. WE buckskinners, especially flint shooters, call them cheatlines because they violate the spirit of the primitive arms seasons will barely hewing to the letter of the law. They shoot pure copper pistol sized bullets in plastic sabots at insane velocities.

We shoot pure soft round lead balls in linen or ticking patches grease with crisco and have been taking game reliably with them in the U.S. since the end of the 17th century.

Now some twit in residence in CA, where else, has DECIDED WITH NO EVIDENCE, that lead projectiles are poisoning condors. WHY is it always condors? Wind turbines kill ten condors for every one that is poisoned each year so why not take an axe to these useless PC eyesores?

Gov. Jerkinator has signed bills to eliminate lead bullets and balls for hunting in ANY area where the far ranging and high flying, as in 20,000 feet, condors are found. What's worse a number of states have jumped on this and they don't even have condors in zoos!!

This is a back door, typical of La La Land, effort to severely curtail both hunting and gun ownership. Can we say end run?

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Suppose
Suppose the First Amendment’s free speech and press rights had been worded like this:
“An informed electorate being necessary for a free state, the right of the people to speak and write shall not be infringed.”

Would any liberal for a moment think that under such wording that individuals would have to be employed by a news media in order to express an opinion?

For Subpilot Re. Gun Control
Beg to differ. Besides the information gleaned while attending a firearms training school where I went through 2,500 rounds in 3 days (no joke, you can Google "Mid-South"), I have found other sources regarding better gripping options than the one shown. By the way, with that number of rounds it was a little comical to see a guy with a 1911 style .45 and his numerous bandaids. (I was more of a pansy and used a Sig P226.)

Without getting heavy into research, I found this link that can take you deeper into the Weaver stance where the instructor goes from hand pointing to actually holding a weapon with the grip that is now preferred and taught. It really does work much better than cupping your free hand under your shooting hand.

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/29862_guns-stance-weaver .htm

Vic
You're right about the lawyer bit at the end of your last post. I don't think either of us can see where this will wind up but it seems to be a precedent that can be used, as a start, to invalidate bad laws and eventually reverse the damage done by the left.

Thanks for the conversation Vic, I'm off to go shooting with my two sons.

Norm
have fun

I tell ya,
we sit here talking about our rights to carry and my daughter just now calls and tells my wife what happen last night at around 10:30 PM. My son in law’s mom and pops owns a liquor store in a lower to middle classed neighborhood. Two punks come into the store with their guns already out and try to stick up the place. Bad choice on their part because as it so happens pops was sitting there talking to her and both have a CW permit
It ended up with 9 bullets behind them where they were standing, but the front of the store looked like the OK corral with both of them unloading the clips from their pistols and scaring the sh!t out of the punks. J says they ran like their arse was on fire and their heads were catching. His words.
The punks couldn’t shoot and hit the broad side of a barn as they had missed with all their shots, but one of them left the store with a newly installed hollow point. Not a lot of blood, but one of them got winged at least, for sure.
Only God knows what would have happened if they didn’t carry. I probably would have been going too two funerals. Thank God and S&W I don’t have to.

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/

http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseacti on=home.main&tp_preview=true&x=7959345

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

I need to toss this statement in...
... at this time in response to what Thomas Jefferson said. “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, (stop take a breath) it is the right of the People to alter or abolish it, (stop take a breath) and to institute new Government,… it is their right, (stop take a breath) it is their duty, (stop take a breath) to throw off such Government, (stop take a breath) and to provide new Guards for their future security.” Ah; it does not say how! Now with this statement in play; I do not know about you but the Second Amendment now has got to scare the crap out of all current forms of Gov. now in office and in CONTOL today. You must understand that in order to maintain power and control they must remove the guns from the people. With say 50 million guns all pointed at say Congress and not doing what the people elected them to do and helping to sell this country down the river for big business will make any part of them people mad enough to pick that gun up? As I see it there is a consequence for abusing power / letting power go to your head and abusing the trust given by the people. So, they must remove the seconded amendment to remove the threat. The gun fight will still be on. On Fox news today some are still saying the ruling is wrong. I am not saying to do this; however it is a view I see. Answer this someone; why do I need a CCW to carry a gun? How come my CCW from NY is no good in FL? Is this what 2nd amendment says?

Violation of the Patriot Act
Armalite [Reply #37] threatened “look out you metro sexual communist vermin. We’ve got bazooka’s on our hip and WE'RE COMING TO GET YA“. Such a threat is not only offensive [TH editor take note!] but also an act of domestic terrorism under the Patriot Act Sorry, Armalite, the Act doesn't apply just to people of Middle Eastern origin. If you doubt my word then look up "domestic terrorism Patriot Act" on the Web. I've a proud straight lifelong liberal. I'm also a lifelong gun owner. However, I don't gloat about my guns, I don't pull on my cammies and strut around while crowing like an Armalite chicken, and I don't make threatens against other people. Folks who do make such threats should be prosecuted under the Patriot Act.

Jim-Too

Jim From OK
Hey Jim, if you put your head in a big paper bag and breath you'll intake more CO2 and it will slow down your hyperventilating. You metros get so emotional when your T cell counts are out of order. Stop acting up!

Bazookas on Armalite's hip? You're worried that someone's coming after you with a bazooka? Jesus Christ girl, get a hold of yourself. Are you having menstrual cramps?

You leftists cannot shut us up with your special rights. Go over to Huffington Post or Moveon.org or someplace else where you can quiver and quake with the rest of your spindly metros.

SO WHAT'S NEXT FOR SCOTUS -AND ELECTION?
OH, THIS 2nd Amendment Ruling IS NOTHING! Next Step? Will be when I am subpeona’d for my testimony on my past 30+ years as an US Army “Manchurian Candidate Study” subject.
(Go to http://www.rickhyatt.freeservers.com, Picasa, or Flickr to see just how immersed I AM in this espionage business)
My own mission as a “Sleeper,” totally controlled, of course, by the FBI and (Double-Blind, unknowingly) “Social(ist) Services,” was to “Act up” (Utilizing special psychological and physical attributes such as clinical hypnosis and Celiac’s Disease, which causes reversible neopathy, and a "Yukky" personality) to the degree that I became “One of those who shouldn’t own a gun…" and thusly influence on-going anti-gun legislation. I was successful...

LET'S NOT BE TOO OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THIS!!
I am relieved at the ruling on guns as it is far better than if they had ruled the other way.

But let's not cheer just yet. We are still in deep doo-doo regarding government infringements on our God-given right to keep and bear arms with nobody's permission.

The Second Amendment says what it means and means what it says, and it guarantees the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. It does not list any "unlesses."

There is nothing in the Amendment, or elsewhere in the Constitution about any permits, licenses, registration, or exclusion of any person from this right.

But the Court did not strike any requirements; in fact it seems that some Justices who voted to strike the D.C. law did say that there could be "reasonable" restrictions. Who will define "reasonable?" Politicians and bureaucrats, of course.

In other words, to keep and bear arms is still a "privilege" to be granted by government agents who think they are better than you are. You still have to grovel for permission.

Therefore they are *NOT* acknowledging any *right,* but are still making it a privilege.

Not only that, what is even more alarming is that 4 Justices voted against the ruling. If 4 out of 9 Supreme Court Justices deny this very important God-given right as an *individual* right, then we are really in deep trouble.

Both major parties are very, very weak on gun rights, in fact they are weak on individual rights period, which does not bode well. The Libertarian candidate, Bob Barr is fiercely pro-gun, but lapdog news as usual is ignoring him.

When you consider the main reason why the Founders wanted people to be armed, it is more important than ever that people be determined to keep the guns they have and practice the only Constitutional form of gun control: AIM!!!

See my blog: http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com

Armalite:
SCOTUS still didn't get it right.
Nor has anyone else, it seems.

Scalia spoke of "home defense".
Also;
Clinton upholds the 2nd for "duck hunting";
McCain upholds the 2nd for "Sportsmen"
Obama speaks of the 2nd but talks about LAWS to proscribe your posession, usage and probably type of weapon you are allowed.

Stop and think:

After suffering through a long, bloody and costly revolution against a tyrannical government our forefathers sat down to draft a list of "do's" and "don't's" for our newly formed government. Then, reflecting on the atrocities perpetrated on the people by the previous government, they drafted a list of the rights of the people NOT to be infringed upon by the government. Among these rights was the right of the people to Keep and Bear Arms. Why do you think these men put that in? Do youbelieve that, after a long, costly and bloody war against a tyrannical government, they gave the right to keep arms for SQUIRREL HUNTERS, DUCK HUNTERS OR ANTIQUE GUN COLLECTORS?

The Second Amendment is protection against a power grabbing government.

WITHOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT YOU HAVE NO OTHER AMENDMENTS...

Two points
First, will the feds enforce these laws. The DC police chief is already on record as misinterpreting the ruling. You can bet that San Francisco, a sanctuary city that harasses the US military, will follow suit. Will they get away with it?

Second, why is the historical point never made that the only reason that the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution was that certain states wants specific language specifically declaring INDIVIDUAL rights that would not be tampered with. They were added to limit the GOVERNMENT's power. Case closed. It bothers me that the so-called conservative judges did not say that and that it was just a 5-4 vote.

This isn't over.

The new civil rights issue

Seriously. There are Federal civil rights laws and civil suits and the rest - watch for cops and mayors and such being sued (personally) under things like Section 1983 and a very real fear of being sued by the NRA doing to municipal authorities what the current fear of being sued by the ACLU or NAACP is currently setting municipal policy.

These tyrants talk a great talk, but have them look at personal liability and it is all over.

Vic comment #39
I'm on thin ice discussing constitutional rulings but I had the same exact reaction as you did when I read the ruling. In addition to the general concern from my previous comment, I was very disappointed that once again, the Roberts court decided to make a very narrow ruling instead of taking an issue head on. They could have, for instance, added language that specifically states that although no right is absolute, the right to bear arms is subject to the same standards of the other inalienable rights: you have them without infringement until you have demonstrated to society that you are not a competent citizen. Felons lose their rights to vote, to bear arms, and for at least part of their lives the right to travel beyond prison. The government's interest was poorly addressed and left a wide-open door for further aggressive anti-gun legislation based on states' rights. At least, that is how I read it. I think this SCOTUS is proving to be over-rated.

A Good Ruling But More Is Needed...
It is clear that the SCOTUS is the Kennedy Court and rides on whatever he chooses. With this the ruling gave clear indication that gun rights are to the individual but that they can still be controlled to some extent.

Without that decision the affect in the USA would have been too drastic on politics (people on all sides finally going conservative), upheaval in states that may try to leave the union, and with business that make too much money selling arms.

This leads to what the SCOTUS is: a branch of politics, not law. Kennedy is floating in the wind and the next President will make changes to the people with him.

NO PERMISSION REQUIRED!
RE: Alice lillie writes on 11:43 AM
lets not be too optimistic about this”.

This is precisely why I have, and will continue to carry a gun without a CCW permit. Even if my State issued permits, which it refuses to do, Id refuse to get one. Its NOT called the “Bill of Needs” or the “Bill of Would Like to Have”. It’s the Bill of RIGHTS!
Read here, NO PERMISSION REQUIRED!!!

AND WHO PAYS?
An unconstitutional law, for 30 years and who apologizes to the victims this created, the injured and dead? Can they sue? Will those responsible be arrested? No of course not! they only did what they thought was right and if somebody died because of it? So what we thought and still think that we did right! AND.... you will never convince them otherwise and no, they're not really sorry accept if there's a camera present...

Buck from OK
Well said.

The only thing positive that can be said of this decision is that if it had been 5-4 the other way, it would have been an unmitigated disaster. As is, it is a mitigated disaster. The Supremes didn't "incorporate" it, and they more or less affirmed "common sense" (God, I hate that term used by politicians) laws.

The founders put this in precisely because they distrusted government. The self defense argument is silly--the founders would not have imagined that such needed stating. They didn't put in a right to breathe, either.

One thing that always grates on my ears is the "why do you need a automatic weapon to hunt deer" My response is to ask why they "need" something dear to them. A good one is "why do you NEED that Porsche that is capable of 150mph and you can onlyd rive it 70 or so?" After the subsequent fussing, I point out that it is a Bill of RIGHTS, not a Bill of NEEDS.

We are well into the government deciding what we need. The end times are approaching.

Vic
I'll change that to your 5:50 am comment. I just noticed that the comment # is a moving target.

I also agree with Jeff1957 that the Roberts SCOTUS is really going to be the Kennedy SCOTUS. They are really just is a holding pattern holding off the Scalias and conservatives hoping for the wave to lose steam. I don't see any reason to believe either Obama or McCain offer any hope that this will change.

PasadenaPhil
I agree, this was NOT a good reading. As I said on the first day it was a "tolerable" ruling but I am starting to think that maybe it doesn't even rise to that.

What I find really dissapointing was the footnote on page 48 that dodged the incorporation issue. If they did not wish for this ruling to apply to the State and Local governments then it made no sense what so ever to grant certari. They could just have left the DC court ruling stand and that would have been it. Why take the case rule it is an individual right (with restrictions) and then say it only applied to the DC?

I have a feeling that once they got into it that it bogged down again and in order to get the "blessing" of Kennedy they had to do all the wrangling.

the only excuse government
NEEDS is to claim that their actions are merely to protect us from ourselves, while what they are actually doing is protecting their power by taking away our liberty and individual freedoms.

Government bans on guns, smoking, foods and anything else that limits our individual right to choose for ourselves increases their power to control us.

Subsidizing and sanctioning other individual rights like taking the guilt out of abortion is another way to gain more control over a complacent population willing to give up their own rights in order to not have to take responsibility for their own actions while forcing someone else to pay.

Government is out of control and into the business of legislating social ideology through bans on things they don't approve of and taxation to subsidize the things that make us less free.

THE TRADGETY OF THIS
That it took the Supreme Court to tell Americans what the Second Amendment has CLEARLY said for over 200 years is an absolute travisty. That four members of that court in their dessent either do not understand the meaning of basic English wording that most seventh grade students reading it could plainly understand, or they chose to deliberatly ignore it, is an impeachable offense. That we American are forced to play Constitutional roullette with our rights every time the Supreme Court takes a case is an additional injustice. That how the decision will go on any given day is dependent on whether or not Anthony Kennedy got a good nights sleep or he had enough fiber in his food the day before so that his morning constitutional went okay shows how close to the edge we are with our very freedoms every time the courts meets.

It's past time Americans started paying attention to those nine old farts in black robes who rule this nation. And if we don't, we are going to wake up one morning and have no right to free speech, firearns, religion, searches and seizeures, posting of soldiers in our homes, self incrimination and a whole host of others as well. They are all up for grabs every time the court meets, so it is just a LITTLE important who is wearing those black robes which means of course, it's DAM IMPORTANT who appoints them.

I DO NOT like McCain for beans, BUT HE WILL appoint court members who have at least read the Constitution and it is apparent four of those presently sitting on the court have not done so. The good news is that now their collegues have educated them on what the words "shall not be infringed" actually means.

Don't fret over jim...
he is all worried about comma's and such.

I don't believe it when he says he is a lifelong gun owner. From his posts on a previous thread, he thinks the 2nd Amendment pertains only to a "Militia".

In case jim missed it lastnight, I will post this link once again:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

Read it, jim. Or do you STILL not want to be confused by facts?

The existence of...
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights does not mean that American citizens actually know what they say or how important they are.

The reading and study of our founding documents are not even taught in "publik" schools. A complacent and ignorant populace are being slowly but surely enslaved by a power grabbing central government with a thinly veiled thirst for complete control of our lives so they can get at all the fruits of our labor.

Those that go along with it either consider themselves out of it's reach through their own wealth and/or power or they have already been sucked into "the system" and want more company in their misery.

Clarification
Clear and correct thinking on the US Constitution, especially the 2nd Amendment, logically leads one to truly understand what the framers meant when they prepared this document.

Our minds can only fully comprehend the intent of the founders when we cleanse them of outmoded, reactionary and counter-revolutionary thoughts.

The framers of the Constitution were men descended from people who abandoned their comfortable surroundings in Europe, sacrificed all they had to venture to a strange land, and those that survived carved estates out of a hostile wilderness. They did this because of oppression and tyranny in their homelands.

Those that rose to prominence in the new land risked their fortunes and their lives because of the oppression and tyranny laid on them from sovereigns abroad. Some of these men did indeed pay for their rebellion with their lives. Many lost all they had.

After the Revolution they set forth a document that was to prevent the abuses of centuries in their native lands.

Clearly, their intent was to arm only the government, to allow two men to marry, and to empower a strong central authority to dictate the manner in which future Americans could associate with each other, who they could hire, fire and promote, where they could live and their methods of transportation. These wise men knew that preferences could not be entrusted with the people and that they could not be permitted to defend themselves.

Fortunately, at least four of our Supreme Court justices understand this and with the election of Him, our savior B. Hussein Obama, we will have the opportunity to appoint more such enlightened and progressive masters of the law.



The Kings men used to be in England
They have migrated here and brought their Royalty worship with them.

The Supreme Court has no power over my Unalienable God Given RIGHTS.
Zero, nada, nothing, they are not in the Chain of Command.

Their power rests in words and that is their limitation.
They only have the power to accuse me of being a criminal for owning a gun.
But that is the extent of their power.

The power to choose if I own a Gun or not is mine alone to decide.
And I decided this issue at 11 years old when my dad bought me a .22 rifle and taught me to use it for the tool it is.

I have made the same Pledge the Founders of the United States of America has made, and am devoted to defend the Constitution and my God Given Rights with the same Spirit of these words.

I pledge I will defend my God Given Rights with my life, my fortune, and my sacred honor.

If the King wants to call me a criminal, so what its only words.

When he uses force against me, to take my God Given Rights, I will fight the King just as the Founders did.

If it were written today, it might be put:

"Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged."
Roy Copperud

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publishers' Humanities Award.

Only a willful intention by a tyrant could possibly be the sole reason any person who argue the plain English of the 2nd Amendment.
That recognizes an existing Right, not gives one.

Their new legal theory
The 4 idiots should change their means of determining outcome from Constitutional text and Stare Decisis to “ego ipse indigentia”. That is their new legal theory.

Rush is right...
... on this entire issue of the power we have allowed the SCOTUS to have in our lives.

I heard a few minutes of Rush the other day and, paraphrasing, this was the gist of his comments:

"We citizens wait with baited breath each June for what the "Supremes" are going to allow us to do or to have... what "rights" we are allowed to keep."

Isn't this so true?

I am distant enough from my formal education to remember the exact Framer who discussed the role of the SCOTUS - but I DO remember that the Supreme Court was envisioned as the weakest of the three branches of government with a VERY narrow Constitutional role.

It is past time that the SCOTUS be returned to their primary role of Constitutional interpretation as it applies to legislation and dispute - and past time that we allow Justices to rule based upon political outcomes.

We should also consider Constitutional Amendments for term-limiting legislators and justices - but that is an argument for another day.

Fundamentals and Rule of Law
This Nations Laws are Founded in, cannot be overthrown, as they are based in Natural Law.
Natural Law cannot be Amended, or Abolished by the words of men.

No more than any lawmaker can change the hours in a day, even though we have a "law" that tries.
Daylight savings time.

This law has never once saved any daylight, it has no effect whatsoever on daylight, as it continues working just like it has since the Creation.

Same thing for God Given Rights, the laws of men cannot change them, they can only abuse them.

And men do that in every nation on earth, including America.
Men are abusers of the law and the very reason we have law.

No man can be trusted to create law, no man.

Its out of his power to create a law that brings righteousness of the people.
No Law can do this, not even the Law of Moses can do that.
What the Law can do, is Judge transgressors, criminals, evil of men.
This is what the Law is all about.

So taking the God Given Rights of a people can never bring righteousness, only rebellion as the history of the world clearly shows.
People will submit themselves to abuses for a time, but one day their Nature will Rise up and put a stop to the Abuse.

Unfortunately some men do not respect another man's God Given Rights, so they abuse a system of law to enforce their own will against God and His Laws.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary ...
to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,

I declare my own Independence the Laws of God and Nature has Entitled me with.


Take a liberal to a RANGE!!!!!
First convince him none of his libtard friends will find out unless he tells them. Then let him fire a light 20 gauge with Upland loads but make sure it's an over under or side by side. After five rounds hand him a GAS-OPERATED semi auto 12 gauge with 3.5" high brass waterfowl loads and wait till his eyes bug out when he sees the effective recoil of the "heavy" goose loads is not much worse than the dove/quail loads in the 20.

Then hand him an ultralight .308 rifle in bolt action and after five rounds let him shoot a Remington .30-06 semi auto with 220 grain round nose loads. The '06 will FEEL like it's recoiling with less force.

You and I know that this is because the gas auto uses some of the otherwise wasted expanding powder gases to operate the action which seriously softens the recoil

As for why you "need" it, remind him that he flinched a LOT less with the autoloaders and that leads to straighter shooting, an greatly reduces the chances of wounded and lost game.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Missed the first step.
You have to get him/her to wear Depends since most, admittedly not all libs seriously soil themselves the first time they hear actual gunfire.


-Ray
NRA Life Member

liberals and their ideas
Tell me or better yet show me a liberal idea that has improved the lives of the people they porported to help? The only thing the gun control lobby ever gave us is the criminals got the guns and we were left unarmed and defenseless. Has any body asked them this question; if gun control is so good, how come the criminals have guns? And how are you going to disarm the criminals? They really have no answer.

Hip Hip Horrah!!!
Congrats to the most violent nation on earth, and to the glorious N.R.A. Gun freaks and "pro lifers" should now work towards manditory gun ownership for all true 'Mericn's. Make sure the Amish school girls, Virginy Tech students and Faculty, Kentucky factory workers, Colorado church goers, Colorado High school students and Faculty, and all various and sundry postal workers(the list just goes on & on, doesn't it?) are packin' heat as well. A gun for every new born!!! It's only right that ya'll waste yourrselves rather than the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi's whove you have "Shocked & Awed" to their death. Not that you care, but the world is laughing at you.

Anyone think you do not need 2nd A.
Rights?
Read this moron

-----
jayhawk in aotearoa

The only reason we have violence
Is because we have allowed all the heathen in like this guy.
jayhawk in aotearoa


Aotearoa (pronounced [ao?tea'roa]
the most widely known and accepted Maori name for New Zealand.

Head Hunters

Maori Law
Two heads will buy one musket


Still not a big victory
The decision leaves a lot of loopholes for gun regulation, and conservatives should not be fooled on this point. Supreme Court decisions are very, very seldom without wiggle room on various points. What is needed is a series of clarifications of this decision (in the form of cases involving other sorts of gun regulation) to clear the way for Americans to carry whatever the H*** they want, period.

Obama on Muslims
1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim extremist.

1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim extremists.

In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim extremists.

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim extremists.

In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim extremists.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim extremists.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim extremists.

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim extremists.

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim extremists.

In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim extremists.

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim extremists.

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by Muslim extremists.


"I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."
Barack Obama from 'Audacity of Hope'

''Why Did It Have to Be...Guns?''
--
By way of L. Neil Smith:

"[I]f a politician won't trust you, why should you trust him? If he's a man — and you're not — what does his lack of trust tell you about his real attitude toward women? If 'he' happens to be a woman, what makes her so perverse that she's eager to render her fellow women helpless on the mean and seedy streets her policies helped create? Should you believe her when she says she wants to help you by imposing some infantile group health care program on you at the point of the kind of gun she doesn't want you to have?

"On the other hand — or the other party — should you believe anything politicians say who claim they stand for freedom, but drag their feet and make excuses about repealing limits on your right to own and carry weapons? What does this tell you about their real motives for ignoring voters and ramming through one infantile group trade agreement after another with other countries?

"Makes voting simpler, doesn't it? You don't have to study every issue — health care, international trade — all you have to do is use this X-ray machine, this Vulcan mind-meld, to get beyond their empty words and find out how politicians really feel. About you. And that, of course, is why they hate it."


--

''Why Did It Have to Be...Guns?''
--
It's therefore easy to understand that firearms - and the right to keep and bear arms (RTKBA) - present true conservatives with a critical advantage.

Democrat or (nominally) Republican, if a politician isn't perfectly happy to ram the full Bill of Rights - *AT GUNPOINT* - up the collective anus of our own government in order to protect your individual rights to life, liberty, and property, he's not conservative.


Ignore religion, ignore "compassion," dismiss protestations of patriotism, and forget claims about how one particular candidate's family has sucked at the U.S. Navy's teat for three generations.

If he's not in favor of you strapping on a .45 automatic, buttoning your ugly Hawaiian souvenir shirt concealingly over it, and going anywhere you friggin' please, with as many rounds of ammunition as you please, of whatever type you please....

Then he's your enemy, and any comparison drawn against any supposedly "worse" enemy is plain idiocy.






==========
"The hardest part about gaining any new idea is sweeping out the false idea occupying that niche. As long as that niche is occupied, evidence and proof and logical demonstration get nowhere."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


Supreme Court and Guns
Thank God! At last there are five Supreme Court Justices who understand the 2nd Amendment and who deserve to be Justices for life. While it is Constitutionally guaranteed, it is actually also a God-given right. Many professionals and bedegreed persons (including some in the Clergy) have been deluded by many in the mass media who, by the way, are not totally to blame, because their life support is in the salaries and other benefits they get from their biased bosses. They have to refresh their moral and theological studies and concentrate especially on the Gospel of St. Luke, 22: 35-38. During Jesus' time, there were no guns invented yet. And the equivalent of today's gun is the sword. Our Lord emphasizes the necessity of the sword for self-defense and enjoins His Apostles by saying that he who has no sword should sell his coat and buy one. They said: "Lord, behold here are two swords." And He said to them: "It is enough." (Douay-Rheims New Testament). - Roland S.B. Escalante.

jayhawk in aotearoa writes:
"Not that you care, but the world is laughing at you."
-----

You are correct. I could care less what the "world" thinks about our Constitutional guarantees.

And as soon as more people try to LEAVE the United States than try to GET IN - I'll begin to worry, because it will mean idiot leftists have finally destroyed this nation.

Jayhawk, feel free to leave and move to the "world" anytime.

talent scout Re: “jayhawk in aotearoa”

Winston Churchill was obviously thinking of people like “jayhawk” when he made this most profound statement:.....
“If you’re under 30 and a Conservative you have no heart. But if you’re over 30 and are still a Liberal, you have no BRAIN”. Perhaps we could give “jayhawk” the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s just a kid with a LONG way to grow up. But my guess is he falls into the later category and has the IQ of a DEAD TREE STUMP. In which case he’s SOL.....LMAO

Long Live the 2nd amendment
Will the people in this country ever wake up and realize the attempt of the anti-gunners to trash the second amendment has absolutely NOTHING to do with guns. It is an attempt for them to make us unable to defend ourselves as they try and turn the US into a dictatorial state of socialism, which is a stepping stone to communism. They will never, never give up trying to take our guns away so be prepared and stay armed. This from a law-abiding gun owner who will NEVER NEVER NEVER relinquish my right to defend myself, which I have already done once with my gun.

At least 5 understand the Law.
This decision, finally confirming what’s always been the Right of INDIVIDUALS to keep and bear arms, was a welcome, correct, and long overdue ruling. The massive and overwhelming amount of data supporting this Right was obvious to me even as a first year law student. So I’m troubled by the fact that 4 dissenting justices refused to acknowledge the truth, resulting in a predictable and common 5 / 4 split. The fact it wasn’t unanimous is another classic example of legislation from the bench. Judges are charged with ruling on issues of law. To rule from a political agenda, as was obvious here, is a violation of their office and of the principles of our judicial system. If ever there was reason not to appoint judges for life, this is it. Four Liberal justices, voting their politics rather than examining issues of Constitutional law, have disgraced what should be the most respected court in the nation.


Jayhawk
""ongrats to the most violent nation on earth, and to the glorious N.R.A. Gun freaks and "pro lifers" should now work towards manditory gun ownership for all true 'Mericn's. ""

And the "Spittle on the Screen" award goes to........ envelope Please........ Jayhawk.

Aren't there some meds you should be taking?

Seriously dude, you need help, fast.



NO-bama '08
Seig Heil is now "Yes We Can!".

Jayhawk Part I
Wow! Where to start with such drivel? Let's start with your statement about US being most violent nation on Earth. We won’t even get into the pits full of dead in Iraq or the ethnic cleansing going on in Dafur that you libs are so concerned about. A 2005 study that adjusted for population and tracked suicide and homicide rates per 100,000 people in 86 civilized nations indicated that it was in fact Scotland which earned that title in 2005 (I do not have access to any newer such study though I've also read More Guns Less Crime by John Lott - you might try reading it Jaysquawk. I'm betting the outcome would not change no matter the study or the date is was conducted): http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html .

According to CDC 49,639 Americans were killed in violent crimes in 2003 in the US, http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5526a1.htm. I would assume it is almost as bad every year thereafter too. Why aren't you screaming for the heads of every mayor and governor in the country as well? Because some of them are libdolts - that's why!

How many times will libtards shovel the same idealistic cr@p about controlling guns and therefore gun violence even though it has been proven again and again to not work?

It is simply common sense that those who own a firearm legally are not the ones out to commit mayhem with them. These people are likely the most experienced and effective shooters and they learn to understand and respect the firearm for the deadly tool that it is. It is rare that someone who gets their gun though legal avenues is the threat. It’s just common sense meat. However like most things liberal it flies in the face of that same common sense.

Jayhawk I
Wow! Where to start with such drivel? Let's start with your statement about US being most violent nation on Earth. We won’t even get into the pits full of dead in Iraq or the ethnic cleansing going on in Dafur that you libs are so concerned about. A 2005 study that adjusted for population and tracked suicide and homicide rates per 100,000 people in 86 civilized nations indicated that it was in fact Scotland which earned that title in 2005 (I do not have access to any newer such study though I've also read More Guns Less Crime by John Lott - you might try reading it Jaysquawk. I'm betting the outcome would not change no matter the study or the date is was conducted): http://www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html .

According to CDC 49,639 Americans were killed in violent crimes in 2003 in the US, http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5526a1.htm. Why aren't you screaming for the heads of every mayor and governor in the country as well? Because some of them are libdolts - that's why!

How many times will libtards shovel the same idealistic cr@p about controlling guns and violence even though it has been proven to not work?

It is simply common sense that those who own a firearm legally are not the ones out to commit mayhem with them. These people are likely the most experienced and effective shooters and they learn to understand and respect the firearm for the deadly tool that it is. It is rare that someone who gets their gun though legal avenues is the threat. It’s just common sense meat. However like most things liberal it flies in the face of that same common sense.

How many studies and real life examples are there of CC laws actually reducing violent crime because the perp has no idea who is armed and who is not? Read a book man.

Jayhawk II
Second the claim of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis being killed by the US has been debunked so many times it is not funny. Why is it you libsquirts can just go on and on spewing your lies as if the rest of us are not watching? One search in Google immediately reveals two sites that differ: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ and http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/ .

My God doofus, even antiwar.com disagrees with your bullsh1t!

Finally why should any America give a rats rearend what the world thinks? Maybe if they learned from us we might not have ended up the world’s only superpower. And I know that fries your yellow libsquirt azzes!

Finally when will libtards realize that the rest of us can think on our own without talking points do not need them to watch over us and that we are not all like them - drooling retards. This why political debate in this country is so acrimonious. Libdolts are the product of public schools but they, unlike conservatives, have no desire to actually reseach things themselves since it is much easier to regurgitate the Dim talking points. To them facts are irrelevant to any debate.

If the is what they teach you at KU you may want to look into night school or at least get a library card. You guys are pathetic.


The issue of Gun Rights
represents the quintessential difference between conservatives and liberals.

Conservatives think about a problem and look to formulate the most logical, effective solution, one that produces the least amount of unintended consequences. They implement a solution, monitor the impact and amend the approach; based upon results.

Liberals simply 'wish' for an answer. The more simplistic and easy on their sensibilities, the better the solution, regardless of any collateral damage. Negative results are nothing more than a clear indication of delayed success. Let's double the budget.

Constitutional challenge forward
"New York required anyone who wanted a handgun to acquire a special permit, which was expensive and hard to get."

So when will a conservative district demand a 'permit' to enter and acquire an abortion from Planned Parenthood, in the same manner that the left goes to extreme lengths to deny citizens their Constitutional 'right' to purchace a gun?

Hey, primus 54
We've already left!!! Socialized medicine here and everything. You couldn't handle it here, hardly any gun violence, civil unions are legal, pro womens choice in terms of reproduction, and bigotry is frowned upon. Please, stay where you are and commence shooting. One innocent Iraqi (or totrtured, or displaced) is one too many. You Reich-Wingers are sure good for a laugh!!! Thanks for playing!!! And again, fire at will!!!

JAYHAWK
this one must have beaten up a lot in school and has projected his hatred on the entire USA. What a bed wetter.

We need interstate reciprocity
Just about every state has a reciprocity agreement with other states to allow concealed carry permit holders to cross state lines and be carrying gun legally, not unlike driver licenses. Every year, more states come to similar agreements. It is my hope that one day, I can cross the country and not having to worry if I am within the law to carry from state to state. For someone who has to travel all the time, it is very burdensome.

Join the NRA for $35 a year. It is money well spent, as evident by this latest court ruling.

It's worth remembering...
President William J. Clinton: "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans..." USA Today, March 11, 1993

Those on the left, like ole Slick and his latest incarnation, B. Hussein bin Obama, are only too ready to forget the rights of us "ordinary Americans" who "cling" to our guns and to our religion.

Unfortunately, McCain is more attuned to their point of view than to that of "ordinary Americans", too, so it looks like we're scrod, by whomever next takes up residence at the White House.

SNAFU
Here is what you don't understand. To a socialist, the individual is the problem, i.e. private property, profit, the haves and have nots. To the Hillarys, Hu**eins and McCains of the world, group rights trump the individual's rights. I fear McCain more so than I do Hu**ein, for the very reason that we know Hu**ein is a socialist and can be stopped. McCain, however, is a socialist in a moderate disguise. He can get the Congress to go along with his socialist agenda. As bad as Hu**ein is, if McCain loses, I won't lose any sleep over it. Actally, I will be very happy to see vindication after 20 years of abuse by McCain.

Remember what I said about libs?
If the one you take to the range is ANYTHING like Gayhawk make sure he has rubber pants over the Depends. And don't let him ride in you car.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Gambler5112
About McCain, we are in complete agreement. The notion that he might appoint acceptable justices to SCOTUS is tenuous and wispy, at best.

And I would hate to see Conservatism take a hit for the abject failures of yet another pseudo-conservative sheep in wolfen clothing.

Wrat Wrangler
Did you watch Juan Williams on Fox this morning? It was hilarious. I kind of like Juan. He seems like a nice guy. But when they discussed the gun ban ruling, his feminine side came out. These were his words: "How irresponsible is it for the justices to say to the American people that it is OK to have guns all over the streets and in every home? I don't like guns. Guns scare me." I laughed so hard.

for jayhawk in NEW ZEALAND
jayhawk writes: "We've already left!!!"

And here is what made that possible:

"When World War II broke out, New Zealand again contributed many troops. They mostly fought in Europe, relying on the Royal Navy and later the UNITED STATES to protect New Zealand from the Japanese forces, who never reached as far as the New Zealand mainland except with some highly publicised but essentially ineffective scouting incursions."

http://tinyurl.com/4oarwr

You're enjoying the fruits of a freedom that was won for you with the blood--and guns--of the generations who came before you.

Show a little gratitude.


Speaking of jayhawk...
"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stuart Mill

Gun Control Victory
The article leaves out one important fact: People will not give up their guns. If the Court had ruled that no private citizen could keep a gun the government would have had to send out armed troops to round up the guns and people would have been killed.

The gun control crowd will continue the effort to control gun ownership. They may eventually succeed because the people are slowly but surely cedeing their rights to the government. But, one thing is for sure - the last right that the government takes will be private gun ownership and that taking will not come without a civil war.

The Liberals on the Supreme Court know that. They would have gone the other way if they dared. They aren't stupid.

Jayhawk
like most liberals substitutes irrational hysterics for debate.

Apollyon67 and CKHukster
"A well regulated Militia" are the first words of the amendment. They seem pretty clear as well. Do you idiots think the framers made a mistake or didn't know what they were saying? The words you ignore were placed FIRST in the Amendment.

Duh.

Vic - brilliant quip
"If I was a lawyer you wouldn't get a straight answer."

if two plus two makes four
It's called a prefatory clause and it serves only to give one of the many reasons for the operative clause.

The words in the prefatory clause aren't there to be acted on, they are there to explain part of the reason for the part that is acted on, the operative clause.

Such clauses inform, but they do not restrict. "It being 7 in the morning, I ate breakfast," has the same kind of sentence structure. It doesn't mean I can't eat breakfast at any other time.

Before throwing words like idiot around, be sure you are looking in a mirror. The framers didn't make a mistake and they knew what they were saying. Too bad the same can't be said for you.

Daily Steve
"A prefatory clause" is that your idea of technical analysis? Wow.

I am really impressed. Why didn't they just say "It being a wonderful day outside"? Or "We, not knowing why we are putting these word here"?

They put them there to explain the purpose of the following words, especially and exclusively "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". So, they could only have meant those words to limit the following words. Why else would they have put them in the sentence??

Besides, Mister-really-smart-con, a CLAUSE requires a PREDICATE, for which a PARITICIPLE does not qualify. You must have meant "participial phrase modifying (that means explaining) the verb". Then, you might have avoided being grouped into that majority of con losers: idiots.

Not only are you an idiot, but your con friends on the Supreme court are also idiots and worse: criminals. I believe they (maybe not Clarence) at least know the difference between a clause and phrase. Because they are not complete idiots, then, that pushes the logical conclusion towards "criminal".



RE: "We need Interstate Reciprocity"
gambled5112 writes: “We need interstate reciprocity”.

What you’re referring to is Article 4 sections 1 & 2 of the Constitution, known as the “Full Faith & Credit Act.” This article allows you, for example, to drive from NY to CA without having to stop in each State and get another drivers license. Yes, it would be nice if Article 4 applied to CCW permits. There have been cases argued in State courts, I believe in CA & NY, to have this applied to CCW permits. All have failed. It’s been too many years since I attended law school, so I cant remember the reason for the ruling. But as long as the governments of the 10 States refusing to issue CCW permits are controlled by Socialists, forget interstate reciprocity. The same goes for Federal legislation as long as Congress & the Senate are controlled by Marxist inspired vermin. Until things change, I travel around the country with a gun but without a CCW permit and take my chances. You might consider doing the same.

Two plus idiot
From the majority opinion by Justice Scalia, " The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose."

You are not just an idiot but an ignorant one as well. You quite obviously haven't read the opinion itself.

The problem with Constitutional lackwits such as yourself is that you instinctively hate those who are guided by the principles that made our country great. You need to get a life and stop trying to push your socialist agenda on the rest of us.

If you don't like the Second Amendment, you are free to try to get an amendment through to change it. That is the honorable way to change the Constitution, not by trying to change the meaning of words. Words, by the way that anyone, not an idiot, can understand.

2+2
Look up what "militia" meant in the 18th century, and in the 21st, and there is a big difference.

Proves my point.
A clause needs an active verb. So, does the activist, law creating judge Scalia also feel he has the power to re-write the laws of grammar.

If that is truely what he wrote, then I would say that is perfect ground for this "new judicial, constitutional amendment" to be overturned. The author doesn't even know what a clause is.



2+2=5
"A clause needs an active verb. So, does the activist, law creating judge Scalia also feel he has the power to re-write the laws of grammar."

No comma is needed after "so".
"law creating" should be hyphenated
rewrite needs no hyphen

"If that is truely what he wrote, then I would say that is perfect ground for this "new judicial, constitutional amendment" to be overturned. The author doesn't even know what a clause is."

"truly" is spelled wrong by you.
"that is perfect ground" is incorrect.

I'm not an English fanatic, but since you like to lecture others on proper usage, it would be best to perfect your own first. When Owlgore preaches about the need for energy conservation while doing the exact opposite, he is mocked. When you lecture about grammar and spelling while typing things like "truely", a similar fate will likely befall you.

Two minus
"If that is truely what he wrote, "

For someone who is such a nit-picker you seem to have a problem with spelling. It wouldn't be a big deal if you weren't such a prig about the English language but since you are the fact you misspelled such an easy word is revealing.

Plus, you obviously haven't even scanned the ruling or you would know whether or not I quoted accurately. For the record, I did.

You need to read the ruling before you comment on it or you are just an ignorant idiot spewing nonsense. In your case you can correct the former, but not the latter.

Juan Williams
He got his eyes opened when Jesse "the Jackal" Jerkson gave Bill Cosby the "fornication face" as he was telling black people the truth they didn't want to hear. He ALMOST became one of us but his umbilical cord won't extend as far as the RKBA. He's another one who'll need Depends if he goes to a range.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Daily Steve
I see we are on the same wavelength!

Norm
"The right to keep and bear arms can be restricted by the States because it has never been officially "incorporated" (for now)."

Incorporation was a bad deal that clobbered federalism, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle - read the Bork article in National Review. However, we in PA have a constitution that says the right to bear arms can't be questioned, and Philadelphia is a law (unconstitutionally) unto itself. Perhaps the decision should have gone the other way and we sheep might (note MIGHT) have revolted.

Are the nuts ripe already in California?
How about a little racism?

two_plus_two_make_four
Location: CA

"Not only are you an idiot, but your con friends on the Supreme court are also idiots and worse: criminals. I believe they (maybe not Clarence) at least know the difference between a clause and phrase."

Did Justice Marshall, er - Thurgood, or was he a token, too?


Free men do not ask permission
Are you free to buy an automobile?
Whose permission do you seek out when deciding to own an automobile?

Whose permission do you seek out to buy yourself a shirt, a suit or shoes?

Free men will never ask anyone's permission ot own a firearm.

Only the lessor of men will ever ask for permission, the ones who live their bondage and slavery to a state or a plantation owner.

Free men do not ask for permission to own a gun, they make up their own minds.
And they will fight in whatever it takes to stay free of the morons among us like 2+2, the brain dead moron.




AZPhil
I'm no grammarian. I have to admit I slept through most of my English classes. (Typical comment from me during my HS and college days: "This isn't going to make me money when I get a job.") However, I don't usually go around telling others how they should write. That's what gets me going about Two plus Two.

You did a fine fisking of his comments.

talent scout
Are you free to buy an automobile? Whose permission do you seek out when deciding to own an automobile?

The Department of Motor Vehicles. I don't know about Colorado, but in most places you need a driver's license, license plates, proof of insurance, safety inspections, transfer fees, etc. Nobody runs around yelling that if cars are outlawed only outlaws will own cars.

For Subpilot
http://vaguninfo.com/videos/toddjarrett.htm

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

The teacup meathod in the photo disappeared from Law enforcement and military training decades ago.It provides no real support and reduces the leverage you have on the gun and increases the leverage the gun has on you. ANyone still teaching this method is way behind the power curve.



All you cons are missing the point
It is not nit-picking to complain about the difference between a clause and a phrase. I was told that "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" was a preferatory clause. And that was wrong. A Clause can stand alone and can be inconsequential or "preferatory" as the idiot I wrote back to suggested. But a phrase cannot stand on its own, so, it must have a purpose in the sentence.

All right, all you who nitpicked my misspellings, or what ever, did you have a point???? Or are you just having fun with yourselves. I was making a point. That "A well regulated militia being necessary" was meant to modify directly and irreducibly the rest of the amendment. So, I stand by my my statement: you and your Supreme idiot Scalia, who, it appears is the one who penned the original error, are wrong.

I know, none of you lock step brain-dead are able to see the differences I am talking about. And most certainly you will be shocked that I could impugn Scalia. But I did. He is an idiot and wrong.

He said buy a car NOT drive it.
Cars and guns are like apples and oranges. Contrary to what you knee-jerk hoplophobes think, we don't fantasize about "blowing people away" and "being heroes". The hope of any CCW holder is that of any cop or soldier: "If I can go through life without HAVING to pull the trigger on anyone I'll be VERY happy."

We practice (keepin' up da skillz" as the kids say. We compete. We keep VERY low profiles. The most nonconfrontational guy you'll ever meet is a CCW holder.

Cars on the other hand are MEANT to be used daily by MILLIONS of people. When that many people are strapped into 1-3 tons of steel and barreling down the road SOME sense of order must be maintained. Vehicles must be inspected for safety and drivers must have a minimal level of competence.

Your right to swing you fist ends where MY NOSE begins, as Franklin would say. Therefore your right to drive a vehicle as you please ends where it may endanger others or their property.
Is that so HARD to understand?

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Rich and Norm
Read Article VI. That is the Supremacy Clause. The 14th. Am is, to my way of thinking a reiteration of the Sixth Article.
Me thinks the issue is a loser for the control freaks.

chainsaw
Even a small arm can recoil unpleasantly, especially an auto-loader. The longer the barrel, the less kickback. I prefer the Colt Viper 357, pre-1975 model. Smooth trigger pull, easy on my wrist, excellent for targets of paper or threatening nature.

Great article, BTW.
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