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Thursday, June 19, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Terrorized by the Supreme Court
by Steve Chapman
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A lot of people who strongly believe in the war on terror are not above sowing a little terror of their own. From the reaction to last week's Supreme Court decision on Guantanamo, you would think the detainees were all going to be trained, armed and set free at Ground Zero, with free shuttle service to the nearest airport.

John McCain denounced the ruling, which said inmates may ask for federal court review under a procedure known as habeas corpus, as "one of the worst decisions in the history of this country." Former Bush Justice Department official John Yoo warned that henceforth, captured enemy fighters will be read their Miranda rights. The irrepressible Wall Street Journal had a cartoon with a judge atop a cage labeled "Gitmo" watching masked inmates stream out wearing suicide vests and lugging AK-47s.

All this outrage builds on the dissent registered by Justice Antonin Scalia. The court's decision "will make the war harder on us," he thundered. "It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed."

Well, it won't have that effect unless it leads to inmates being released -- which it has not, will not anytime soon, and may not ever. If and when it does, he may have a point, though not necessarily a powerful one.

Anytime you let someone out of prison, even if he's innocent, you create the possibility that he will someday kill someone. Scalia makes much of the supposed fact that 30 of the detainees freed from Guantanamo "have returned to the battlefield." Just because they were later captured or killed, however, doesn't mean they "returned" to the war.

Some of them may have been victims of mistaken identity, which could explain why those softhearted folks at the Pentagon let them go. But stick a blameless unfortunate in a cage for six years, abusing him in the process, and when he comes out, he may seek revenge. The only way to eliminate the risk is to keep all the detainees locked up forever.

Even the Bush administration has not gone that far. It was happy to free more than 500 inmates over the years. When it did, by the way, nobody accused the president of causing more Americans to be killed.

Besides, any releases are only speculative right now. To have a chance at freedom, a prisoner will have to make a plausible case that he's innocent. The administration had already planned to try 80 of the detainees before military commissions, which suggests it has abundant evidence of guilt.

Presumably the Defense Department has information to show that many, if not all, of the others were connected to al-Qaida or other enemy forces. If the government presents incriminating evidence that the inmate can't refute, a habeas corpus petition will be about as useful to him as a snowboard.

Nor are the courts likely to let the American Civil Liberties Union draw up the standards for release. Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing the majority opinion, indicated the judiciary will err on the side of caution.

"Habeas corpus proceedings need not resemble a criminal trial," he stipulated, for those worried about Miranda warnings. Though inmates have rights, he noted, "it does not follow that a habeas corpus court may disregard the dangers the detention in these cases was intended to prevent."

Let's suppose there's an inmate whom the Pentagon thinks was fighting for al-Qaida but lacks any supporting evidence it can use in court. Does he now have a get-out-of-Gitmo-free card? Not necessarily.

In that case, says Northwestern University law professor Ronald Allen, the government could classify him as a prisoner of war -- who, like POWs in previous wars, may be held until the hostilities cease. The trouble, from the administration's point of view, is that he would then be entitled to standard POW protections, such as being treated humanely and not being punished for refusing to answer questions. But at this point, that's a small price to pay.

It's also a small price to say that if the executive wants to capture someone, treat him as an unlawful enemy combatant and hold him for the rest of his life, it should have to justify that decision to someone other than itself. Critics of this decision are terrified that the courts will have the power to free innocent men. But really, the alternative is a lot scarier.

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Steve Chapman must be a pen name
For Ruth Bader Gibsburg.

He/she writes:

The trouble, from the administration's point of view, is that he would then be entitled to standard POW protections, such as being treated humanely and not being punished for refusing to answer questions. -

-----
Why don't you read the Geneva Conventions Ruthie.
Under those rules, they are to be shot.

The real reason they cannot be called POW's and have GC rules applied is the very pertinent fact they are not a Signatory Nation that agreed/s to abide by the Geneva Convention rules for POW's, moron.

Why you commenting on something you have never read yourself Ruthie?

High Contracting Parties
Is KEY Ruthie, and why terrorists are not POW's.


Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva
from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
entry into force 21 October 1950
PART I

GENERAL PROVISIONS

Article 1

The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

To find out who the HIGH Contracting Parties are, red it, here is the link.
Look and see for yourself Ruthie.
Al Queada has not signed on as a High Contracting Party

The Geneva Convention is a contract, like all treaties. And contracts obligate those who sign them to certain behavior.

Terrorists are not citizens of good standing in any nation on earth, as all nations have outlawed their murder of Civilians.
They are criminals, not soldiers and are under martial Law.
Not Civil Law, or even Criminal Law.

Under Martial Law, there is no such right as Habeas Corpus.


The Supreme Court has made it political
Standard American Law, standard international law for Military Tribunals to handle any person captured in warfare.

Some have made the silly comments the US is not at war legally, and have no right to hold prisoners.
The dumbest of men take that view I guess and cannot be helped.
But regardless if we have declared war on the islamic terrorists or not, they have declared war on us.

So we have a war if we want it or not.
But, its a lie anyway.
We are lawfully at War with islamic terrorists.
War Powers Act (1973)and the Support of Congress itself.

If Congress does not back the President, then all they need to do is stop funding the war.
Which they do and have done since the first battles in Afghanistan.


Oh, OK,
"Justice Anthony Kennedy... indicated the judiciary will err on the side of caution." That means it's true. There are no renegade, radical leftist judges on the bench.

Why did Chapman focus exclusively on minimizing the potential results, no matter how silly his assertions had to be, and not once consider whether the SC has any jurisdiction in this matter? I guess he thought that was easier to argue against, even though it isn't the primary legal issue here.

In other words, Chapman apparently argues that the results will not be as bad as many claim, so it doesn't really matter if the decision was unconstitutional.

The court crossed a line
when it granted, for the first time in Anglo-American history, ANY constitutional rights to non-citizens captured in war. (Yes, even those captured by our allies and then turned over to us.) The slippery slope argument is valid here. If those prisoners have habeas rights, then what is stopping the SC from giving them other constitutional rights that used to be reserved for citizens and foreigners who are legally inside the U.S.?

The next time we fight a large-scale war like WWII, will the tens of thousands of prisoners have access to U.S. courts? Why not? How can the judiciary be certain that those prisoners are POWs under the GC and not terrorists or others not covered by the GC? Therefore, every one of them needs habeas access just to determine their status. That would create a nightmare scenario for already backlogged courts. That is exactly why the Framers vested war powers almost exclusively in the executive branch and gave none to the judiciary. Congress has the power to declare war, fund it, and determine procedures for handling prisoners. The president has the power to conduct wars the way he sees fit, including determining the status of every individual captured by our military - within the framework set up by Congress.

If that's scary to you, then propose a constitutional amendment. Or you could just support new legislation requiring court review of each detainee's status - along with massive new funding because the current system cannot begin to handle that extra load. But please don't support another unconstitutional, judicial fiat power grab just because it produced (for now) a result that makes you feel good.

After the Ruling
I believe it would truly only be just if each and every detainee was granted his hearing before the SCOTUS. After all, they are the wisest in the land.

Habeas Corpus
Justice Kennedy threw a fish when he remarked that the habeas court needn't ignore the dangers that the detention was meant to prevent. This is just sophistry. The issue is whether terrorists, captured on a foreign field, shall be afforded the Constitutional protections of those caught on our soil. Sadly, Mr. Chapman, your piece sounds like an effort to soften the opposition rather than an explication of the issue at hand. You sound like a lapdog of the Left, which is forever sobbing about the loss of Constitutional protections at the hands of savage Conservatives. Naturally, you always use outlandish examples that simply don't exist in the real world. Ask yourself how the Founding Fathers would have treated this issue. They were far more realistic about what the Constitution should mean and how it should be inerpreted.

Confront the Accuser
"If the administration presents incriminating evidence that the prisoner cannot refute". What do you expect this will do to our efforts to recruit informants? Some complain that our intelligence community relies too heavily on technology, and not enough on human intelligence. So, we ask the informant in Waziristan to come forward so that we can let Osama's driver cross-examine him? Good luck to his family!

This outrage is going to grow
Chapman writes:
"All this outrage builds on the dissent registered by Justice Antonin Scalia. The court's decision "will make the war harder on us," he thundered. "It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed."

---
You appear to be mocking him and his words Chapman.

In fact you sound like you think it is beyond reason to think this could end up costing an American life.

The US Military is not a Detective Bureau and have the time to spend investigating all these men in detail, that it takes for a conviction in a Civil Court.

Honest to God, I do believe madness has taken over the Supreme Court.
This ruling is the most insane, yet to date,Calif> a close second, but appears it is going to get a lot more nutty in the days to come.

Isn't there some law we can have their mental health issues checked out?
They are past due for a check up as dementia is now obvious.



Shame on You
When you state "But stick a blameless unfortunate in a cage for six years, abusing him in the process, and when he comes out, he may seek revenge." you claim that prisoners are being "abused". This is a filthy lie and people like you do nothing but trade your morality for short-term publicity.

Shame on you.

Bush officials committed war crimes?

General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes
Will the Dems do anything?

MCC-The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing “war crimes” and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who’s now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

“After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes,” Taguba wrote. “The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. “The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture,” he wrote.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/general-who-probed -abu-ghraib-says-bush-officials-committed-war-crimes

John Konop writes :
John Konop is a Nut case and has convinced me : We are the Bad Guys and the AL Quada Suicide squads , the Trade Center(1993) Bombing on Clintons watch and the other Bombing in AFRICA , IRAQ , AFGHANISTAN , SAUDI ARBRIA and Lebanon killing and Murdering thousands .
The 9/11 Bombers are all understandable since he doesn't say a word in his (normal ) rant NEVER against them ..it is always America TROOPS are BLOOOD THIRSTY ANIMALS .
You will also notice in all his RANTING ABOUT OUR TROOPS HE LEAVES AMERICA'S ENEMY OUT 1001 % .NEVER IN ONE OF HIS POST HAS HE SPOKEN OF AL QUADA MANY massive Bombing , BEHEADING ALL OVER THE WORLD .
Somebody please well the coward Johm Knoop that MOST RECON MARINES , NAVY SEALS , RANGERS SPECIAL FORCES '' RECEIVE "" PURPOSELY WORST FAR TREATMENT THAN DID THOSE TERRORIST THAT WANT HIS SORRY COWARD ANTI AMERICAN BUTT VERY DEAD .
NO SLEEP OR FOOD FOR SEVERAL DAYS , SHOUTED AT AND BEING EXHAUSTED IS NORMAL TRAINING FOR OUR SPECIAL TROOPS .
NOT ONE TERRORIST WAS HURT IN THOSE PICTURES SEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD AND MANY FOUGHT US LATER IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN HE WANT MENTION AND WELL KNOWS .
I AM SURE YOUR BOY OBOMA , SADDAM'S FRIENDS AND AL QUADA LOVE YA BABY !

John Konop
Nobody cares about the two year old Abu Ghraib stories, and nobody's buying the "Bush war crime" thing either.

My criticism of Bush is that he should grow a set and tell the liberals on the Supreme Court to kiss his arse and that's he's following law passed by Congress which the same liberal idiots asked Congress to pass.

I'll pray that one or two of the liberal traitors leave the court, for one reason or another, before Bush's term expires.

Good article.
It is funny how liberals think the federal govt can do no wrong when it runs "social services" (like the dept of eductation, say, or welfare), while conseravtuves think the govt can do no wrong when it it runs "national security" matters (like the war in Iraq, or Gitmo). The reality is the federal government makes massive mistakes all the time.

Avenge Kelo
MRCMRC - Great post @ 7:13

I still find this ruling to be minimal compared to the travesty that was Kelo vs. New London.

Orlandocajun
I know you live in a "Fun" state, not known for intelligence,so I will help you.This is June,Mr.Bush leaves office in January.Do you see the problem as it relates to a Supreme nominee?The Court's decision was right and at present, it is Law.If you want to change it, run for President.When was the last time "US" had a President from Florida?NEVER....

Hey Chapman
"Anytime you let someone out of prison, even if he's innocent, you create the possibility that he will someday kill someone. Scalia makes much of the supposed fact that 30 of the detainees freed from Guantanamo "have returned to the battlefield." Just because they were later captured or killed, however, doesn't mean they "returned" to the war."

Well to me and the U.S. Military "They returned to the war." You obviously don't have a son or daughter fighting to protect you and the rest of this country.
You seem to be missing the point! We did not elect Kennedy or the other Supreme Court Justices. We elect the Congress and the president to pass legislation.
"You're article is just liberal trash and you sir are an arse."


Sandrob
People are "KILLED" in prisons everyday.Or is it only the people on the outside, that count?Do you see the Utter "Stupidity" of your statement?I had been operating under the misguided assumption, that the military paid it's voluntary troops.Where I come from, people who have a "Job" and get paid for doing said Job, are employees.I don't do PARADES at my office.If anyone is anything,you are a poor example of a Human Being.

Supreme Court Ruling
“If the policy of the Government upon vital questions affecting the whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned their Government into the hands of that eminent tribunal.” Abraham Lincoln

Woodrow Wilson stated that when the public recognized that the spirit of the Constitution has been violated, the public would make “such outrages upon constitutional morality impossible by standing ready to curse them.”

It is time to take a stand, it is time to take a stand and make it known, remembering the words of Abraham Lincoln, that the people will not cease to be their own rulers. That the Supreme Court does not have the right to irrevocably fix decisions upon vital questions affecting the whole people. I will not surrender, I will not surrender the Constitution, my individual will and my Government into the hands of that “eminent” tribunal. Thomas Jeffeson felt that the aim of self government is not the satisfaction of desires, but the incarnation of our free will.

This is the true meaning of freedom.

good column
Obviously Chapman is not going to be popular on this site for taking the Constitution seriously when it gets in the way of holding middle eastern people in prison indefinitely.

But it is funny to see all of the people who think that the framers of the constitution meant to be excluding people like themselves from such protections after having waged their insurgency against the British.

Conservatives really do not seem to think of rights as coming from God, but rather as roadblocks that we got stuck with by the framers and should minimize as much as possible. Or possibly they do think these are rights coming from God, they just don't agree with God much.

Justice Kennedy's recent stupid decision
I had never heard of the author, Steve Chapman, and I was more than surprised to see such an article in Townhall (I guess this is another effort to make the Liberals “see how nice we can be”). When I saw that Chapman was from Chicago, the hometown of B. Hussain Obama, it became clear to me why he thinks as he does. B Hussain thinks that way - it is the Party Line!
Mr. Chapman’s premise, “If the government presents incriminating evidence that the inmate can't refute, a habeas corpus petition will be about as useful to him as a snowboard.”
Now just how does Mr. Chapman (and Justice Kennedy & the four stooges) propose to do that? Many of the American servicemen who captured those poor unfortunate innocents on the battlefield have been killed by other innocents in Iraq or Afghanistan, and will not be able to testify; others are still there fighting for Justice Kennedy’s right to render such idiotic opinions. It could be dangerous - and exceedingly destructive for morale - to pull such men out of battle and send the back to the US to have ACLU lawyers try to make liars of them because they might not recall the details of how they captured this particular swine. I have been a combat commander (in WWII) and I would never have subjected any of my my men to such treatment.
Anyone who thinks there is one iota of sense to the decision rendered by that ...[censured], Justice Kennedy (and the four stooges) has no clue as to how dangerous that ruling will prove to be.
By the way, I practiced law of 52 years.

Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Scalia
had a different opinion... it's called dissenting opinion..

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/KenBlackwell/2008/06/17/ america_will_regret_high_courts_decision

"In his dissent, Justice Scalia noted that the effect of Thursday’s ruling is that detainees will now be less safe, because the military will now keep detainees in foreign locations under foreign control, to avoid the question of habeas corpus. The military may even have to allow foreign governments custody of the prisoners, where prisoners will doubtless find less respect for their human rights.

"Habeas corpus is a procedural right. For those covered, Chief Justice Roberts noted the legal test is, “whether the system [Congress] designed protects whatever rights the detainees may possess.” After Gitmo detainees go through the military process, they can still appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit—the second-highest court in America.

"Roberts began his dissent by saying that the Court has struck down the most generous procedural protections ever afforded to detainees in the history of warfare, and did so before a single detainee even appealed his detainment. Had the Court allowed at least one detainee’s case to go through appeal, it may have found their rights fully protected.


Roberts and Scalia dissenting cont..

"Roberts laments, “All today’s opinion has done is shift responsibility for those sensitive foreign policy and national security decisions from the elected branches to the Federal Judiciary.” He concluded that Congress’ balancing “the security of the American people” with detainees’ rights has been “brushed aside,” and that the American people have lost control of foreign policy to unelected and politically-unaccountable judges.

"Scalia made Roberts look tame by comparison, beginning, “for the first time in our Nation’s history, the Court confers a constitutional right to habeas corpus on alien enemies detained abroad by our military forces in the course of an ongoing war.”

GITMO case.
While I AGREE with today's majority opinion that "all enemy combatants detained during a war, at least insofar as they are confined in an area away from the battlefield, [but] over which the United States exercises 'absolute and indefinite' control, may seek a writ of habeas corpus in federal court," I also AGREE with Chief Justice Roberts (and his fellow dissenters) that the Writ can be suspended in time of war, such as the war on terror that we find ourselves involved in right now, and that suspension power belongs to Congress, such as Congress has exercised in this case, "as the Constitution surely allows Congress to [wield]."

I guess one can REASONABLY conclude that the Court's Majority knew where they wanted to end up, and proceeded to get there, however s-l-o-w-l-y they weaved their way through precedential minefield!

OsiSpeaks[dot]com

Ginsberg seeks International law...

And if that's not bad enough, she is our own ACLU rep. on the Supreme Court.

Ginsberg was a volunteer lawyer for the ACLU, and prior to her appointment to the Supreme Court (thanks again for that Willie Clinton!)was a member of the ACLU's Board.


I would vote on this
I would vote on this editorial, but to even give it one check mark seems it would be giving it too much credence.

There has not been a worse Supreme Court decision since Roe V. Wade.

Simple solution
Take no prisoners.

Chapman's ruining everything...
Republican leaders devote endless energy and effort to capitalize on voter ignorance and apathy.

They work tirelessly to keep their people in line with a steady flow of calculated misinformation and rigidly drawn talking points.

It takes a lot of planning and thought to carefully target sound-bite, bumper sticker propaganda slogans to distracted, uninformed Team Republican voters in the few seconds each month they might actually be paying attention to political issues.

Then here comes Chapman to mess things up with some honest analysis undermining a carefully conceived wedge issue: the "soft-on-terror dimocrats want to unleash the vicious killers on god-fearing Americans" wedge issue.

He even exposes Scalia as a hysterical party hack.

That's it. He's outta here!

Chapman
Did you not get the memo, Mr. Chapman?
We are supposed to be using this issue to scare the reptilie brained masses to vote for McCain.

Joseph (@11:30AM) Agreed!

And it's sooooo easy to see who the lunatic limited lib-idiots posters are... just as it's easy to see who the liberal Supreme Court Justices are.

It never ceases to amaze how these libs are far more concerned about the 'detainees' than the safety and well being of our country.

And, it's not like these 'detainees' are being treated poorly. The Hotel Gitmo is by all accounts a 5 star hotel. Our troops in Gitmo should have it that good.


Oh, and ignore Konop... he can't even win an election for dog catcher....

Here is what it gets down to
What will the President do?
Will he submit to an unlawful power grab from 5 unelected Anti-Constitution, Anti-Law, Anti-American enemies sitting on the Federal Bench?

This is the only question I have.

Or will he show himself a man of Honor and begin Impeachment Proceedings against these traitors sitting on the Supreme Court?

I am doubting the man has the back bone of a man like a Jefferson or Lincoln.
I think he is feminized to be honest, and will go along with handing Presidential Powers over to 5 demented traitors to Law and Constitutional Government.

The Federal Court has NO Jurisdiction to decide a thing that concerns combatants while we are at war.
As Commander in Chief of the Military, its up to him to decide what is the best way to Protect the American Public and follow ESTABLISHED precedent of Presidential Powers in War time.

Where is the Leadership a Great Nation deserves?
He best preserve the Executive Powers and begin Impeachment proceedings if he still cares about law and order under a Constitutional Government.

You know
Reading this thread, I’m left with the disquieting feeling that it’s not some Supreme Court Justices that have little respect for the constitution, but rather some of the folks here at TH. Now before the uproar starts, I understand what so many of you are saying and I’m not trying to pick apart your arguments. There is some sound reasoning behind them. Instead it is a pervasive attitude I am addressing. It’s not my opinion on constitutionality or any of yours either that counts. Nor does it matter that there is dissent within the Supreme Court. The system is designed for the highest court in our nation to render a majority opinion; and that is what it has done. Go ahead and list your concerns and dislikes, but don’t kid yourself by putting your opinion (and that’s what it really is) above theirs.

Bad ruling
The danger in this ruling is not onlt that terrorists will be released by loony judges, although that certainly will happen. Another danger is that information the government has, which must be turned over to defense attorneys, will reveal sources and methods of intelligence gathering. Such information revealed in the trial of the first WTC bombers was in the hands of bin Laden within weeks and resulted in loss of a great intel source.

BTW, Commander45ACP, have you actually used .45ACP or were you a REMF JAG?

This Court has committed a crime
Of High Treason, this is a fact.

In very specific language the Public Safety is not in the realm of power of the Federal Courts.
Public Safety in time of War is under the complete Authority of the Executive Branch.
Period.

Being the Commander in Chief of the US Military, the President alone is charged with DECIDING the issues this criminal court has stepped into to take over the powers of the Executive Office.
Making a decision that the enemy is the President and Congress, and the US Military isd under their control, not the Presidents.

Terrorists all over the world are rejoicing today, from the comfort of knowing they have friends on the Supreme Court of the United States of America.
Giving them the Rights and Protections of American Citizens by handing them the rights to be assumed innocent before Civil Law.

Which is treason as defined by the US Constitution itself.

Article III
Section III
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

This court is giving aid and comfort to the very men who have sworn an oath of destrction to the cost of their own lives against America.
And have openly declared war on this nation.
And this court has now joined them in their war against the United States of America.
Giving them access to Civil Courts, and taking the power of the Executive Office away from the President.
The legal authority who alone has the responsibility to decide the status of detained combatants.
Under ESTABLISHED RULES AND SUPREME COURT DECISIONS concerning this very situation.








Here is where YOU are wrong, Mike
MikeR 12:30 PM EST
Go ahead and list your concerns and dislikes, but don’t kid yourself by putting your opinion (and that’s what it really is) above theirs.
-----
This Court has no more right to decide this issue than you or I do.
This is the entire problem, as the court has over stepped its own legal job description and have assumed unconstitutional powers.
Not given by Law of Constitution.
Which document is the BASE for the Division of the Three Powers of Government.
This Court has taken the Power of the Legislature and the Executive unto itself, and are making up rules according to their OWN WILL.
Not making any decision BASED IN LAW OR PRECEDENCE OF LAW THAT ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE IN 1950.
It was SETTLED WAY BACK THEN.

These people do NOT HAVE RIGHT TO HABEAS CORPUS.
They are UNDER MARTIAL LAW.
Which falls under the AUTHORITY OF THE PRESIDENT.
NOT A COURT

Lots of misinformation going around
It takes an indescribably authoritarian mind to believe that one's own Government should have the power to put people in cages for life without having to provide them any meaningful opportunity to prove that they did not do what they are accused of. And it takes a deeply dishonest advocate to claim that the Supreme Court's ruling was designed to protect "Al Qaeda terrorists" who were "captured fighting against the U.S," given that large numbers of our detainees are not "Al Qaeda terrorists" and were not "captured fighting against the U.S."

talent scout...
tinfoil hat?

"This Court has committed a crime
Of High Treason, this is a fact.

Gil
Actually, Sir, I was 11B2P (Infantry, Paratrooper, Sgt.).
I was and am quite handy with the venerable old 1911a1 .45acp.
Thanks for asking.

talent scout...
"This Court has committed a crime
Of High Treason, this is a fact."

PW: Did this revelation come via the receiver in your tin-foil hat?

Are you on meds?

Does'nt matter
anymore at this point. Personally, I would like to see President Bush order a platoon of the Big Red 1 infantry to knock on the SCOTUS doors and ask them to explain this ruling. We seem to have no true leadership. However, we do have the Amero in limited production, or so they say.

Silver Lion
And when the SCOTUS rules, in the matter of District of Columbia v. Heller, that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, do you support a President Obama dispatching an infantry platoon to the SCOTUS doors?


The crux
There is only one issue here, and it's the separation of powers. The court attempts to violate this provision and become the supervisor of the executive branch. Evidently the court now considers itself to be the equivalent of a corporate board of trustees & the administration to be their subordinates rather than an equal partner along with the congress.

All five should be impeached for numerous reasons: violation of their oath to protect us against all enemies, foreign or domestic; basing decisions -- in part -- on precedents of foreign courts; even considering the rulings of foreign courts; etc.

It's high time the congress took aim at the members of the 9th district court of appeals , and started cleansing the incompetents from that body of fools also.

A false argument is allowed space
The oldest and most basic rights in the US Constitution -- that of a prisoner to go to court to challenge his imprisonment?
------

Do prisoners have a right to habeas corpus?

Everyone will say yes.
Its a basic right to all citizens in America.

Now the only question is what powers are holding a prisoner.
This power is divided up by Cities, Counties, States and Federal Law.

We have city police, county sheriffs, state troopers and federal agents.

All given the power to arrest a citizen.

All address criminal and civil law.

None are given the power over people in a foreign land.
They have no legal authority to arrest any foreign person in their own land.

War Powers are under the Control of the US Congress and the President.
No Court in America has any Jurisdiction over the US Congress and the President, to strip them of their power to make War.
Or to provide for the Common Defense of the Nation.
This area is under the Control of the President and Congress, not a court, not an unelected judge.
The US Military is not under Civil Law.
It has been given a different Law than Citizens are under.
It called Military Justice.
And when the US Military is sent abroad to fight a war, the law that is in charge is Military Law.

NOT Civil or Criminal or Constitutional Law.

This is Separation of Powers.
The US Military is a separate law enforcement authority, with specific areas of authority for an arrest of a foreign citizen at war with the Nation.

All citizens of the foreign nations are under Martial Law, where the US Military is at War.
No Federal Court has ANY JURISDICTION OVER MARTIAL LAW.
PERIOD.
This is all NEW GROUND.
For a Civil Court to TAKE OVER THE US MILITARY AND ITS AUTHORITY, AWAY FROM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
Which the civil courts are not a PART OF.








US Courts
Apply to US Citizens only - Supreme Court judges and any other judge in this country who does not abide by the constitution should be impeached. It is not up to the courts to make changes in our laws but to judge according to our constituion and our laws.

Hey .45 caliber commander
To answer your question, No, I would not support any President sending troops to the SCOTUS for UPHOLDING LEGAL laws of the LAND. I would support those SAME troops questioning a branch of government that has potentially overstepped its authority, and possibly thru fiat, MAY have given aid and comfort to an enemy of our nation.

Perry White, aka mohammed
Has no voice to be heard in America.
Only in Saudi Arabia or Syria

talent scout
Thanks for the civics lesson. It's all pretty simple really. This is why I said in an earlier post that if the court is going to ignore the Constitution and the separation of powers, then the Commander in Chief should simply state that the decision was made without authority and declare it null and void.

Such action would be no more outrageous than what the SC has done. What are the Supremes going to do, jail the president?

Silver Lion
Sir, my point is that we should be careful about what powers we vest in the Presidency.
Future Presidents may wield those powers in ways we have yet to forsee.

If a person has been arrested
In a Foreign Land, where the US Military has been charged to fight a War, all persons, Military and Civilian are under Martial Law.

Martial Law is not the same thing as Civil, Criminal or Constitutional Law.

Very different rules and guide lines are given by Law that only the US Congress has Authority to enact.
And the President is the only man in America charged with the responsibility to see that the US Military follows the Laws of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Treaties.

No where in this area and Chain of Command that any Civil Court is mentioned.
They are NOT a PART of any of this.
And have ZERO rights, nada, none, just like none of any of the rest of us have.

They have no more rights to decide anything as to the arrest of a foreigner than I do.
Or any one else here on this thread or in America.

Does the Civil Courts have any say about a person imprisoned, arrested by the US Military in a Foreign Land?
Has this question ever came up in the history of the world?
In America?

Yes it has.
Already decided that Court HAS NO JURISDICTION TO DECIDE ANYTHING ABOUT A FOREIGN PERSON ARRESTED BY THE US MILITARY.

Identical Circumstance
Identical question.
Already Decided by LAW.

JOHNSON V. EISENTRAGER, 339 U. S. 763 (1950)

Syllabus

Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture. They were transported to the American-occupied part of Germany and imprisoned there in the custody of the Army.

Denied

http://supreme.justia.com/us/339/763/

Commander.45ACP
Sir, I would echo that same concern. The potential certainly could be there. My main point is that I believe the SCOTUS over-reached in this PARTICULAR ruling. Thanks for an opposing viewpoint, and thanks for YOUR service as well Sergeant.

Talent scout
Like I said, I understand your and other’s concerns, but you are still just arguing opinion.

Under the constitution, the Supreme Court has power to rule on any controversies to which the United States shall be a Part; and Guantanamo Bay is a US territory under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty.

This is a controversy taking place under US jurisdiction.

Your point was addressed
By the Founders.
Its all taken care of long ago.

Article 2
Section 2

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
----

Commander45ACP - 1:50 PM EST
Subject: Silver Lion
Sir, my point is that we should be careful about what powers we vest in the Presidency.
Future Presidents may wield those powers in ways we have yet to forsee.

MDoggg
The U.S. Constitution was never intended to cover foreign citizens who have never stepped foot in the U.S. It does, however, explicitly state that Congress has the power to determine procedures for handling prisoners of war and the president has sole authority to carry out those procedures.

Since the Supreme Court has no constitutional jurisdiction over such non-citizen prisoners, their cases are not "in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution..."

Which part don't you get?

Separation of Powers is not my opinion

It is established law and constitution.
There is no question, or opinion today that is not been addressed.
The only thing not addressed today is when the Impeachment Proceeding begin against 5 traitors giving aid and comfort to our enemies begin?




MikeR - 1:59 PM EST
Subject: Talent scout
Like I said, I understand your and other’s concerns, but you are still just arguing opinion.


MDoggg, 9:23 AM EST
Were you referring to Jose Padilla? You need to get your facts straight. He was not "taken from his home in Chicago." He was arrested in Chicago O'Hare Airport with incriminating evidence on his person.

"A few well placed phone calls, and maybe you'll be picked up as a terrorist"? Only if "you" have been conspiring with terrorists and "a material witness warrant [is] issued by the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York."

Since Padilla is a U.S. citizen, he was granted habeas corpus, and properly so. The Bush administration designated him an enemy combatant, but the courts overruled that designation. That's a proper ruling because Padilla is a U.S. citizen.

The Gitmo detainees are not U.S. citizens, so their status cannot be overruled by the courts. Whether you accept it or not, there is a difference. If you don't like it, then propose a constitutional amendment extending the Bill of Rights to everyone in the world, regardless of citizenship, and giving the SC jurisdiction over everyone in the world in all circumstances (including war).

Any controversy? Wrong
MikeR writes:

Under the constitution, the Supreme Court has power to rule on any controversies to which the United States shall be a Part; and Guantanamo Bay is a US territory under the 1903 Cuban-American Treaty.
---

The United States has the right to be in Cuba.
The United States has the right to a Military base in Cuba.

The United States Military has a right to hold Prisoners and judge them under the Rules of Military Justice.
All subject to the United States Military Code of Justice, Treaties and Presidential Orders.
Now what controversy are you talking about that the Supreme Court has any right to decide in the above stated situation?

You talking about the controversy and unhappiness of the terrorists and their supporters?

Yes you are.
Well too bad, so sad, its all decided already.
No habeas corpus


U.S. Supreme Court
Johnson v. Eisentrager
Decided June 5, 1950

339 U.S. 763

Syllabus

Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture. They were transported to the American-occupied part of Germany and imprisoned there in the custody of the Army. At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court. Claiming that their trial, conviction, and imprisonment violated Articles I and III, the Fifth Amendment, and other provisions of our Constitution, laws of the United States, and provisions of the Geneva Convention, they petitioned the District Court for the District of Columbia for a writ of habeas corpus directed to the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and several officers of the Army having directive power over their custodian.

Held:


Is Chapman a Conservative?
I enjoy differing opinions but I come to Townhall for the Conservative viewpoint. Maybe Mr. Chapman neeeds to post his Column at the Huffington Post. He gets it right about one out of every three columns.

This one he did not get right.

Talent
Hey Talent:

In case you missed the bloody obvious,

they were charged with something and tried.

These detainees are being held without charges.

The Supreme Court has jurisdiction over military courts with regard to Habuas, which is all they ruled on.

Lepanto
It is one thing for a real Conservative to be sympathetic to Justice Roberts opinion.

It is quite another for a Conservative to have a cow over the majority decision -- which was written by a Ronald Reagan appointee.

The idea that loud-mouthed Hugh Hewitt, or just about anybody else at this place Conservative is laughable. Just a bunch of Republican Party hacks.

Chapman; you are
a d*MN FOOL. You need to look at the decision and the case that it actually reversed, even tjhough thelying gang of 5 said that it didn't.

We have now granted foreign terrorists who have NEVER been in the U.S. access to the liberal U.S. court system complete with it's decades of Warren Court criminal coddling decisions.

It hasn't turned any lose yet but it's only a week old. From what other sites are posting the lawyers are already filing for release based on such things as failure to read them their rights.

Lepanto
Chapman is a Pro-Life Libertarian. So he agrees with conservatives on some issues and not on others. He does take civil liberties seriously, so obviously he is not a down the line conservative.

theoldtrooper
You seem to be misunderstanding what Habeas Corpus entails. In such a trial the government would only need to show that it has reasonable evidence for holding people, they do not have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no reason to believe that this would require pulling any soldiers off the field. The standards involved here are much lower than that. It is only problematic for the Bush adminstration because it appears that they could not meet even that low standard for many at Guantanamo. Some of them were simply examples of mistaken identity, and any Habeas Corpus hearing would have resulted in the discovery that they were holding innocent people whose names happened to be similar ot people we wanted.

SCOTUS Reaction
Commander45ACP: My hat is off to anyone who willingly jumps out of a perfectly functioning airplane, and a salute to anyone whose MOS begins with 11. Your posts caught my eye because Commander was my rank at retirement. I was not a JAG either.

On the subject: DC v. Heller is a much lower level case than SCOTUS v the rest of the Federal government. Adjudicating disputes between lesser sovereigns is a function of the Supreme Court clearly specified in the Constitution. Overruling the considered judgement of the Legislative and Executive branches is a role arrogated to itself by the Court during the Marshall years. DC has no power to interpret the US Constitution and must defer to Federal courts. The Legislative and Executive do have a responsibility to interpret the Constitution and I find no authorization in that document to suggest that the Court's authority supercedes the other two branches. In fact, just the opposite is true: Congress can (and in this case should) remove subjects from the jurisdiction of Federal courts.

A simple equation
The detainees are either POWs covered by the Geneva Conventions, or they are enemy combatants covered by US or Cuban law.

Where US law applies, civil or military, due process applies as well.

In their allowance of hearsay and evidence obtained through coercion the Bush/Congress tribunals violate the UCMJ.

Talent scout
My copy of the constitution says “ Article III. - The Judicial Branch; Section 2 - Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials; The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution …… to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;…….”

339 U.S. 763 “At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court”. These individuals are on US territory.

When I consider your comments, I wonder if you either consider yourself a genius or the Justices idiots. Personally, I like the consperacy theory that the liberal are trying to destroy the country. That alows you to be just an average Joe and them to be at least competent enough to be jurists. It amazes me how similar your wording and reasoning is to some extreme liberals I know. Of course, when I point that similarity out to them, they say “the difference is that I’m right and they’re wrong.”


talent scout
You've been a real warrior on this subject! Excellent research, once again. This quotation says it all:

"They were transported to the American-occupied part of Germany and imprisoned there in the custody of the Army. At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court."


What many people on the other side miss is that courts ALWAYS consider jurisdiction FIRST among all the facts of a case. They don't want to waste their time deciding cases that aren't in their jurisdictions. They know that anything they decide will be moot if they have no jurisdiction. You and I are not arbitrarily deciding to put jurisdiction above civil liberties. That's the FIRST issue that ANY court MUST consider.

The same applies to people hyperventilating over the civil liberties of foreigners not on U.S. soil. Their arguments are moot because it's not the role of the SC to decide anything regarding non-citizens captured by the military in war. Period. End of story. Next case.

bryce
Nice try, but there's more to the "equation." Detainees can be non-POWs unde the GC and yet not covered by the U.S. Constitution. Detainees in that third category are covered by laws written by Congress and administered by the executive.

Article I, Section 8:
"The Congress shall have power...
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and ***make rules concerning captures on land and water;***"


The U.S. Constitution, and specifically the Bill of Rights, does not cover non-U.S. citizens. Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison clearly understood that. The SC has understood that for 200+ years. Now five Justices have suddenly found something that apparently no one else could, including those who wrote the Constitution.

Re: We are here to help you
"It is funny how liberals think the federal govt can do no wrong when it runs 'social services'(like the dept of eductation, say, or welfare), while conseravtuves think the govt can do no wrong when it it runs 'ational security' matters (like the war in Iraq, or Gitmo). The reality is the federal government makes massive mistakes all the time."

The difference is that National Security is Constitionally mandated to the Federal Government while the "social services" are not. Of course, the Supremes are part of the Federal Government. However, the Constitution does not grant SCOTUS any authority to act in the area of National Security - even in legal matters, as the Executive and Congress are Constitutionally empowered to act without court interference in times of war.

You don't need to be a lawyer or judge to read what the Constitution says concerning matters of National Security. For instance Article I Section 8 empowers Congress to:

"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

"To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

Article I Section 9 allows for war time exceptions to the "Privilege (not RIGHT) of the Writ of Habeas Corpus":

Even the Bill of Rights has war time exceptions, such as in Amendment III and Amendment V.

Gil
Thank you for your service, Commander.

Never an educated republican
If you were one.
Hardly unique as that is, you stand out as dumber than a box of rocks.
---


No longer a Republican Smithington writes:
- 2:53 PM EST
Subject: Talent
Hey Talent:

In case you missed the bloody obvious,
-----
ts:
I have not missed it.
You are a moron
----
nlars writes:
they were charged with something and tried.

These detainees are being held without charges.
----
ts:
lol
This is the wildest, bug eyed statement, I have seen yet, from a hoard of morons.

You stand alone in this linatic accusation.
No one else has come close to making an obvious false accusation as this yet, that you do.

You win the Blue Ribbon 1st Place for MORON.

----
nlars writes:
The Supreme Court has jurisdiction over military courts with regard to Habuas, which is all they ruled on.
---
ts:
The Supreme Court has already made its Judgment concerning Habeas Corpus.
If you were not too dumb to read, you would know this.
As I have already given you the information where to find the Decision already made, by the Supreme Court.
(before taken over by traitors)

U.S. Supreme Court
Johnson v. Eisentrager
Decided June 5, 1950

339 U.S. 763

Syllabus

Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture.

... they petitioned the District Court for the District of Columbia for a writ of habeas corpus directed to the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and several officers of the Army having directive power over their custodian.
DENIED


No habeas given.
Its over
Go back to watching cartoons

Talent
In case you missed the bloody obvious,
-----
ts:
I have not missed it.
You are a moron


Well if you didn't miss it, why did you apply it.

You bring up a case where people were charged and tried, where Habeas was not a matter before the court, and you want to apply it to a situation where there are no charges and no trial.

Pitiful.

Justice Kennedy & the 4 stooges
I had never heard of the author, Steve Chapman, and I was more than surprised to see such an article in Townhall (I guess this is another effort to make the Liberals “see how nice we can be”). When I saw that Chapman was from Chicago, the hometown of B. Hussain Obama, it became clear to me why he thinks as he does. B Hussain thinks that way - it is the Party Line!
Mr. Chapman’s premise, “If the government presents incriminating evidence that the inmate can't refute, a habeas corpus petition will be about as useful to him as a snowboard.”
Now just how does Mr. Chapman (and Justice Kennedy & the four stooges) propose to do that? Many of the American servicemen who captured those poor unfortunate innocents on the battlefield have been killed by other innocents in Iraq or Afghanistan, and will not be able to testify; others are still there fighting for Justice Kennedy’s right to render such idiotic opinions. It could be dangerous - and exceedingly destructive for morale - to pull such men out of battle and send the back to the US to have ACLU lawyers try to make liars of them because they might not recall the details of how they captured this particular swine. I have been a combat commander (in WWII) and I would never have subjected any of my my men to such treatment.
Anyone who thinks there is one iota of sense to that decision rendered by that [censured], Justice Kennedy (and the four stooges) has no clue as to how dangerous that ruling will prove to be.
By the way, I practiced law of 52 years.

Talent
These detainees are being held without charges.
----
ts:
lol
This is the wildest, bug eyed statement, I have seen yet, from a hoard of morons.

You stand alone in this linatic accusation.
No one else has come close to making an obvious false accusation as this yet, that you do.

You win the Blue Ribbon 1st Place for MORON.


Well then suppose you tell me what the formal charges are and when the trial is.

Talent..you "is" okay! 5 JUSTICES
Chapman pen name for ruthie who-berg?!! ha ha ha
Where did you get your sense of humor from your
mother or your dad?! Reminds me of"DREAMBOAT"!
Has there ever been a movie about 5 supreme
court justices being snuffed.... by the terrorists that they caused to get released??
elvis

MikeR
Actually, you sound like liberals who use an unreasonably expansionist view of the Interstate Commerce Clause to extend federal power with almost no limits.

Think about the implications of your view of the SC. There is no matter that the president can handle in war that the SC cannot overrule. If it wanted, it could declare that nuclear weapons may not be used because they're too "barbaric" or "indiscriminate." They could further rule that every enemy soldier - not just prisoners - on the battlefield has a right to due process and cannot be shot or blown up without a trial. According to you, the SC has the power to overrule any Congressional declaration of war.

Are wars not "controversies to which the United States shall be a party"? Under your interpretation, what would stop the SC from making such absurd decisions? Their good faith? Hah!

To form a logical interpretation of SC powers, you have to apply the context from the rest of Section 2:
"in law and equity, ***arising under this Constitution,*** the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;"

Re: Most despotic branch of government
"What many people on the other side miss is that courts ALWAYS consider jurisdiction FIRST among all the facts of a case. They don't want to waste their time deciding cases that aren't in their jurisdictions. They know that anything they decide will be moot if they have no jurisdiction. You and I are not arbitrarily deciding to put jurisdiction above civil liberties. That's the FIRST issue that ANY court MUST consider."

Ever since Marbury v. Madison, the Supremes have granted themselves the final say not only in divining what the Constitution really means, but also settling all matters regarding "jurisdiction" to enhence its power. They accumplished this despite the fact that Constitution of the United States of America grants them no such authority.

Supreme Court has Constitutional duty
Limited to specific duties.
It has no duty to interfere with the Lawful and Constitutional Powers of the Presidency or the Congress.

If there is any case for the Supreme Court to have Jurisdiction concerning the detainees at Gitmo, it would be to Address a transgression of the law or Constitution by the US Congress or the President.

It has no JURISDICTION OVER MILITARY PRISONERS.
It has NO Jurisdiction to Grant Habeas to foreign combatants.
This is settled Law, and Judged already given, by the United States Supreme Court.

U.S. Supreme Court
Johnson v. Eisentrager
Decided June 5, 1950

339 U.S. 763

Syllabus

Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture.


If the President has authorized unlawful detaining of citizens in a foreign land, then its the duty of the Justice Department to bring Charges against HIM.
Or Congress.
Which ever one has broken the Law or exceeded Constitutional Duty and Authority.

So where are the Charges against the President if the morons are right?
Saying foreigners have been detained illegally?
Go ahead and file charges against the President or Congress. MORONS

Re Lon
Where did you learn your law? How is the Government to prove just cause to hold the prisoner when they have no witness as to whether he was captured, where he was captured, what he was doing wnen he was captured? That is, how does the Government know he was not just an innocent bystander. It takes live witnesses, not hearsay.

Talent
Does the phrase "tried and convicted" mean anything to you?

Apparently not.

Talent
The Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction over military courts -- EXCEPT for habeas.

Deal with it.

Charges against the detainees
At Gitmo.
I cannot imagine a more stupid accusation that can be dreamed up out of the mind of any person than to say the Detainees are HELD WITHOUT CHARGE.
Amazing the stupidity we see here from adults.

If there are no charges filed, and no process that is addressing these charges, why are some Military Lawyers filing to DROP ALL CHARGES!
LOL


---
Homeland Security

US Military Lawyers Want Charges Dropped Against Guantanamo Detainees
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2008/05 /sec-080517-voa01.htm


By VOA News
17 May 2008


No longer a Republican Smithington
Being charged or not charged by military tribunals was immaterial to the case. The court found that it had no jurisdiction to decide how to handle those prisoners. It didn't find that the executive branch had acted properly in its handling of their cases. The court simply said it was not the court's call to make.

"At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court."


Here is the relevant law today:

Military Commissions Act of 2006:
"(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination."

U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8:
"The Congress shall have power...
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;"

Re: UCMJ is NOT the same as Criminal Law
"In their allowance of hearsay and evidence obtained through coercion the Bush/Congress tribunals violate the UCMJ."

Actually, the UCMJ DOES allow for hearsay evidence and coerced testimony. See the Haditha Marine Cases for an example of prosecutional coercion of the accused and witnesses.

Talent
For heavens sakes idiot.

The Court was not ruling on the people who have been charged and have trials scheduled.


theoldtrooper
They could use documentary evidence which presumably is what has them convinced that the people they are holding are guilty in the first place. It is true that that would not provide the kind of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that we require in a criminal trial. But as noted, the habeas corpus hearing is not the criminal trial, and the standards of evidence are not the same.

One would hope that in deciding to send people to Guantanamo, our authorities actually have evidence that leads them to believe that these people should be brought to Guantanamo (although one can hardly be confident about this with the current crowd in power). This evidence can be shown to an independent judiciary to see if it rises to the necessary standard of evidence. That standard will certainly not be a jury trial. That isn't how it works with American citizens charged with more prosaic crimes. It certainly isn't how it would work with the prisoners at Gitmo.

Lestat
"At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court."

Because Habeus was not an issue. Without Habeas being an issue, the Court had no jurisdiction.

elvis
Very good to see you are up and about my friend.
Sense of humor is all thats left to find any joy from the idiots, the morons among us today.
And sitting in positions of power.
As the 5 Dingbats who think they are above the law themselves.

And can take over the US Congress and the Presidency holding the power of a king.
Idiots for certain.

Then we have a slew of MORONS wanting to grant 5 idiots the power of the Kings of America.


THe oldtrooper Practicing
# 75 the Oldtrooper says he practiced law for 52 yrs. It shows in his response. Obviously he was only practicing and never got the "law" part down. Keep practicing dude. Someday you may get to the part where it says that the UNITED STATES, is a nation of LAWS, not of men.


Hilarious!
Hilarious. I come to Townhall.com, and hear a bunch of nitwits claim that an opinion written by a Ronald Reagan appointee is an "outrage".

There were 3 Reagan appointees on the court when the original case that inevitably lead to this decision was heard.

Kennedy and O'Connor out-voted Scalia 2-1. As far as I'm concerned, it really was a 2-0 unanimous decision.

Scalia, while technically a Reagan appointee, frequently goes off the deep end when he forgets to take his prozac.

Of course, Reagan conservatism is a far different kind of conservatism than one finds here at Townhall.com with the neocon crazies.



Re: Who Enforces the Supremes Decision?
The President of the United States and Executive Branch are Constitutionally empowered with the enforcement of the laws. In Worcester vs. Georgia (1832) the Supremes found against the policies regarding the Cherokee Nation supported by President Andrew Jackson. When asked about the decision, President Jackson stated, "John Marshall (Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) has made his decision; let him enforce it now if he can."

Refusing to acknowledge this case
No longer a Republican Smithington
- 4:17 PM EST
Lestat
"At no time were they within the territorial jurisdiction of any American civil court."

Because Habeus was not an issue. Without Habeas being an issue, the Court had no jurisdiction.
----
Lie
Provable LIE.

Here ya go, the proof.
Identical Question
Identical circumstance.
Decided no habeas granted.

U.S. Supreme Court
Johnson v. Eisentrager
Decided June 5, 1950

339 U.S. 763

Syllabus

Respondents, who are nonresident enemy aliens, were captured in China by the United States Army and tried and convicted in China by an American military commission for violations of the laws of war committed in China prior to their capture.

... they petitioned the District Court for the District of Columbia for a writ of habeas corpus directed to the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and several officers of the Army having directive power over their custodian.


DENIED Habeas Corpus


Talent
Dude,

The writ of Habeas was denied. That's the whole point. The court ruled that Habeas was not an issue.

How could have been since they were tried and convicted?

No longer a Republican Smithington
I need to add another point to my last post.

U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8, gives Congress the power to make the rules that govern POWs (including approving treaties like the Geneva Conventions). It does not make an exception for habeas corpus. It does not say, "except as the Supreme Court may determine," or "in addition to the rights guaranteed elsewhere in this Constitution to U.S. citizens." It says CONGRESS makes the rules. No one else. Not the Constitution. Not the SC.

Lon
You are obviously a "Bush hating" liberal, just looking for a reason the suspect the Military. Actually, in most cases, the grab one of the terrorists in a battle and turn them over to Intelligence asap. They do not have time to protect themselves and the good Iraqis to write up a bunch of papers to satisfy a Liberal Federal Judge, as many local police have lear ned to their chagrin. You have never seen any combat; I have, and I can tell you that in all likelihood the ruling will cause many more terrorists being shot on the spot, and our guys don't want to have to fight these madmen twice.
My solution: Move all the prisoners to Washington, put them all in trucks and take them to the front of the Supreme Court. Advise the Court that the Government cannot meet the rigid tests of habeas corpus, and they are now to be disposed of by the Court as the Commander in Chief is no longer in charge of them.

Steve Chapman
is a fool....

Listen friend
No longer a Republican Smithington - 4:15 PM EST
Subject: Talent
For heavens sakes idiot.

The Court was not ruling on the people who have been charged and have trials scheduled.
---
ts:
We really are not enemies.
There is no one at Gitmo without Charges.
Not a single one that is held there.

I just thought its known and a given they all have charges against them, and could not imagine anyone thinking they would be held without any Charges.

ALL of them have CHARGES AGAINST THEM.
All of them are being given access to the legal process under Martial Law, that arrested them to begin with.

Talent
Oh come on.

In order to be formally charged, one must be arraigned in a court that has scheduled proceedings against you for those charges.

Charging somebody outside of an official court with no scheduled proceedings is not charging someone at all.

There needs to be a charge AND a trial. To claim you can have one without the other is the whole point of Habeas in the first place.

Fleetw1978
Snide remarks do not a valid response make!
We are a natiojn of l;aws; so why is murder permitted on the battlefield? And, if murder is permitted, which it is and has been before and after I was on a battlefield, where do you draw the line? Dragging a terrorist by the scruff of his neck to a prison pen is one hell of a lot better than blowing his brains (if he has any) out? And we just go on from there . Liberal have never distinguished themselves in the logic department as the current response to the gasoline prices proves without doubt.

No longer a Republican Smithington
You wrote: "Because Habeus was not an issue."

Habeas was the very mechanism that the plaintiff wanted to use in the court system to challenge his detention. Here's how the Prior History section at the top of the Johnson v. Eisentrager decision begins:

"The District Court dismissed a petition for a writ of habeas corpus to inquire into the confinement of respondents by the United States Army in occupied Germany."

The SC upheld the dismissal of "a petition for a writ of habeas corpus". That's consistent with centuries of U.S. law, and even farther back into all of English law, which was the basis on which we built our own legal system.


Here's the next portion of the Johnson v. Eisentrager decision after what talent scout cited.

"1. A nonresident enemy alien has no access to our courts in wartime. Pp. 768-777.

(a) Our law does not abolish inherent distinctions recognized throughout the civilized world between citizens and aliens, nor between aliens of friendly and enemy allegiance, nor between resident enemy aliens who have submitted themselves to our laws and nonresident enemy aliens who at all times have remained with, and adhered to, enemy governments. P. 769."

"[N]o access". That means no habeas corpus.

No longer a Republican Smithington

Where did you learn your law? Habeas Corpus is a very old common law writ, which means bring the body before the Court and justify why you are holding him. No evidence sufficient to hold him, he walks. The is little likelhood of the Bush Administeratuion coming up with sufficient evidence against the terrorsists to satisfy a liberal Federal Judge, such as Justice Kennedy, and he knew it when he penned the opinion.

What case you talking about?
No longer a Republican Smithington Location: IL
Reply # 95
Date: Jun 19, 2008 - 4:32 PM EST
Subject: Talent
Dude,

The writ of Habeas was denied. That's the whole point. The court ruled that Habeas was not an issue.

How could have been since they were tried and convicted?
-----

ts:
You say this???

"The court ruled that Habeas was not an issue."
My GOD man

Habeas Corpus is exactly what this argument is all about.
Like I said, your accusation wins the Blue Ribbon for stupidity.



Here is the LEGAL PROCESS
There are 3 versions of Bill Number H.R.6166 for the 109th Congress
1 . Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Introduced in House)[H.R.6166.IH]
2 . Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.R.6166.EH]
3 . Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)[H.R.6166.RFS]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.6166:

#3
H.R.6166
Military Commissions Act of 2006 (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)
Beginning
September 27, 2006
November 13, 2006


`

`more...http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:3:./temp/~c1091zSN1o::

No longer a Republican Smithington
Great logic there. Reagan appointed them, therefore they are correct - except the one with whom you disagree. And anyone who disagrees with those Justices is not a Reagan conservative. And if they're not Reagan conservatives, they must be dreaded "neocon crazies."

Even Reagan was capable of making poor appointments, as he did twice. The more appropriate distinction between Justices is their demonstrated judicial philosophies since joining the SC - originalist vs. activist.

Here's a better test. Perhaps conservatives who agree with Boumediene should reconsider their positions when they notice that the four originalist Justices dissented. That doesn't automatically make our side correct, but it should give you pause. (Not you, Smithington; I don't believe you're a conservative. Maybe libertarian.)

The ONLY thing denied Gitmo detainees
Has been access to Civil Courts.
They have not been denied a legal process.
They are not being held without charges.
They do have the right to an attorney before the Military Commissions that have the Legal Authority from Congress and the President to decide each persons guilt or innocence to charges held under Constitutional Law.

Constitutional Law as enacted by CONGRESS.
Not a Court House.
Courts do not lawfully Enact Law.

Their duty is to Judge CASE LAW.
WRITTEN LAW

No longer a Republican Smithington
By ruling that those prisoners were not entitled to habeas, the court said that habeas WAS an issue. Your sophistry is like telling a child that ice cream is not an issue because you will not give it to him. Of course it's an issue, and you're coming down on the side of not allowing the child to have any. The child is on the other side of the issue. Denying something to someone does not mean it was never an issue.

You're just stretching to absurd lengths to avoid saying you were wrong when you claimed habeas was not an issue in Johnson v. Eisentrager.

returned to the battle field
"Just because they were later captured or killed doesn't mean they returned to the battle field..." What part of this don't you understand, they were captured, or killed at the battle field.

Setting off a suicide belt in Iraq is what one did a couple of weeks ago, that is 'going back to the battle field. If you so little understand things, it might be better for you to choose a different topic for debate, you're a perfect example of why conservatives not only disagree with libs, but have so little respect for their reasoning processes.

returned to the battle field
"Just because they were later captured or killed doesn't mean they returned to the battle field..." What part of this don't you understand, they were captured, or killed at the battle field.

Setting off a suicide belt in Iraq is what one did a couple of weeks ago, that is 'going back to the battle field. If you so little understand things, it might be better for you to choose a different topic for debate, you're a perfect example of why conservatives not only disagree with libs, but have so little respect for their reasoning processes.

Huh, these are not just criminals
Anytime you let someone out of prison, even if he's innocent, you create the possibility that he will someday kill someone.

"Someone"? It is clear that you do not grasp the gravity of the situation.

Lestat
In a way, you are right. I’m sure to most folks here I do sound like a liberal, just like I sound like a conservative to most folks at KOS. I find that this actually confirms my position on the similarities between certain liberals and conservatives that can be found on threads like this.
As for the issue, it is decidedly a difficult one. The issues you raise don’t apply though. The court is not ruling on any combat situation nor is it even remotely approaching the scenarios you described. Furthermore, war is not a controversy to which the US is a party. Ironically, Talent Scout has done a good job of describing why this is a controversy so unlike the general warfare to which you are referring.
Yes, section 2 in context does apply. One of the crucial points is that the prisoners are on American soil. The examples that Talent Scout keeps providing fall short because all parts of the action in question occurred on foreign soil. Furthermore, Talent Scout is over looking that fact that civil courts have acted on criminal matters committed by POWs while being held in the United States.
By 1946, almost all Italian and German POWs had been repatriated except for better than 100 who were incarcerated in various prisons and jails.
My point in all this actually goes to the lack of respect for the Court and constitution being shown in this thread. This is identical to what too many liberals do when rulings don’t go the way they want. This is a difficult issue made worse by short sightedness on by the current administration and military leadership. Time does not stand still. It too is a limited resource and they are beginning to run out of what time they had.

Pows excluded?
The clear intent of the ruling is that POWs will be able to challenge their detentions as well and force themselves into the regular criminal justice system. Imagine Nazi war criminals, or Bin Laden, hiring lawyers and beating the rap ala R Kelly et al. This decision is without precedent and has far reaching consequences, all negative. American forces, shoot to kill!

Chessman 100
One does not need to imagine what happened to the Nazi war Criminals.They became the first foreign members of the "CIA" and those who were not, became scientist.Most of America's scientific discoveries came from Nazi Scientist.But you knew all this,did you not.WWI was a "Declared War".I have seen no "Articles of War", from congress.Have you?I wonder what they would say;This is an illegal Declaration,which is supported by manufactured proof,from a manufactured source.How could congress not do it's job?How stupid are some people is a question without answer!The court was RIGHT...

MikeR writes:
The examples that Talent Scout keeps providing fall short because all parts of the action in question occurred on foreign soil.
------
Wrong
I covered who has Jurisdiction over Domestic Law Enforcement and who has Jurisdiction over Foreign Law Enforcement in any Nation we send the Military to in Combat.
The President is in charge over foreign matters involving the Military.
NOT THE SUPREME COURT.

-----

MikeR writes:
Furthermore, Talent Scout is over looking that fact that civil courts have acted on criminal matters committed by POWs while being held in the United States.
---
ts:
I over looked nothing of the sort.
You are making it up as you go.
You do not even have a specific you have named and just make some generalized accusations that means nothing.
I have addressed the Separation of Powers for Citizens and Foreign Combatants.
The Civil Courts have NO Jurisdiction over authority of the Oval Office and the US Military.

period.

"killer" (ha ha) writes:
How stupid are some people is a question without answer!The court was RIGHT...
----
No such problem for you though, the answer is too obvious, moron

Talent scout
You need to "Change" your Apple Sauce.I have always liked compliments.Thanks!!!

TownHall - please get rid of Chappy
He is not smart enough to be a regular (or irregular) writer.
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