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Thursday, May 22, 2008
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Mythmaking for the Next War
by Steve Chapman
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At the height of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had some 45,000 nuclear warheads. At the moment, Iran has none. But when Barack Obama said the obvious -- that Iran does not pose the sort of threat the Soviet Union did -- John McCain reacted as though his rival had offered to trade Fort Knox for a sack of magic beans.

"Such a statement betrays the depth of Sen. Obama's inexperience and reckless judgment," exclaimed McCain. "These are very serious deficiencies for an American president to possess."

But if Iran is the Soviet Union, I'm Shaquille O'Neal. There is nothing reckless in soberly distinguishing large threats from small ones, and there is something foolhardy in grossly exaggerating the strength of your enemies.

As military powers go, Iran is a pipsqueak. It has no nuclear weapons. It has a pitiful air force. Its navy is really just a coast guard. It spends less on defense than Singapore or Sweden. Our military budget is 145 times bigger than Iran's.

By contrast, the Soviets had far more nuclear weapons than we did, a blue-water navy, formidable air power and ground forces that dwarfed ours. In a conventional war, it was anything but certain that we could prevail, and in a nuclear exchange, it was clear they could destroy us.

Iran is a very modest adversary. Of course, even a Chihuahua can bite. The U.S. government claims Iran has provided arms and training to Iraqi insurgents -- never mind that it is allied with the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki.

But it's worthwhile to remember that even bad regimes sometimes have understandable motivations. The United States helped overthrow a democratically elected Iranian government in 1953 and provided aid to Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s. If Iran sees an interest in bleeding the U.S. military, that is likely a defensive response to the presence of an avowed enemy on its border rather than a sign of aggressive intent.

Its actions in Iraq, however, are supposedly the least of the menace. McCain and many others are convinced that Iran will soon get nuclear weapons and proceed to use them.

The first claim overlooks the Bush administration's own National Intelligence Estimate, issued last year, which concluded that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003. The NIE also said, "Tehran's decisions are guided by a cost-benefit approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic and military costs."

Even if Iran were to acquire atomic bombs, there is no reason to think it would use them or turn them over to terrorists. McCain, however, insists that Iran has "a commitment to Israel's destruction," and appears to think its leaders cannot be contained because of their religious fanaticism.

But as University of Michigan Middle East scholar Juan Cole has explained, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never vowed to "wipe Israel off the map" -- an oft-quoted phrase that Cole says is a mistranslation of the milder words he used. In fact, he says, "Ahmadinejad has never threatened Israel with physical aggression," however much he would welcome its collapse.

Even if the Iranians would like to destroy Israel, they face a powerful disincentive: the prospect of radioactive incineration. The Tehran government has been intimidated by less. Israeli historian Gershom Gorenberg writes in the May/June issue of Foreign Policy magazine, "Iran agreed to a ceasefire in the war with Iraq once Iraqi missiles began falling on Tehran. The ayatollahs were willing to sacrifice soldiers -- but not to pay a higher price." Even fanatics have their limits.

Nor would Iran be so irrational as to give nukes to a terrorist group. That would be the worst of both worlds -- giving up control of those weapons, while inviting annihilation the moment they are put to use.

But there is no reasoning with McCain and his allies, who yearn for the simple clarity of the Cold War. If we don't have an enemy on the mammoth scale of the Soviet Union, they will take a pint-sized one, inflate it beyond recognition and pretend that military confrontation is the only way to deal with it.

That was how we got into the war in Iraq and how, under a McCain presidency, we are liable to end up in a war in Iran. If he's looking for reckless judgment, he should look in the mirror.

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Won't get fooled again.
The neo-cons and the crazed rightwing media are trying after the Iraq debacle to sell us on starting another war this time with Iran on more phony reasons.Thank God the adult in the room Sec. Def. Bob Gates publicly said this would be a very bad idea.

Great column
Bravo to TH for adding a smart, intelligent, rationale columnist. 5 stars for this column.

This is the dumbest article
I have ever read on TH.
You can be certain of that if Ralph Ellison likes it.

Mythmaking for the Next War
What you talking about Chapman?
Iran declared war on America in 1979.

Russia never did that

Fact is, even if Iran is a much smaller adversary than Russia, Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map.

This alone makes them very dangerous for the stability of the Mid-East and the World.

Israel is not going to ignore such threats, and it leaves them with two options.
Wait until Iran commits to their belligerence, or hit them first.
And the Israelis really do not care what anyone in America thinks about their right to defend themselves against this madman.
Obama is not fit to run a dog pound, let alone this country.
Unless we are all ready to commit suicide, with such a loser in office.


War is the Health of the State
I don't care which one gains the presidency. We WILL send our troops SOMEWHERE. You can take that to the bank.

Chapman, geez man.
Are you completely out to lunch? I'm not saying that I believe we should start bombing tomorrow, but treating Iran like a nation of sheep-herders is more than naive. You -- and some of those who stated agreement with your position in the comments -- obviously do not learn from history, and that's something you ought to be embarrassed by.

Because Iran has what they believe to be a justifiable reason to kill our soldiers in Iraq, you'd allow them to keep doing it? You would engage a nation in diplomacy that is ATTACKING YOUR SERVICEMEN?!? You're disgusting, and so are texaschuck and Ralph Ellison for agreeing with you. It must be nice to be an American soldier in Iraq knowing that some guy sitting behind a desk typing on a computer can understand it when they're blown to bits by an IED. Beautiful. You people sympathizing with this are vile.

Secondly, you have no way to know that Iran will NOT act on its hostility, but how can you possibly ignore what they say? You're not a prophet and you're not a mind-reader. After 9/11, can you honestly still say that Muslim fanatics are not a threat to you??? Would you really feel safe knowing Iran has a nuclear weapon? Would that make the world a safer place? They're stirring up trouble all over the region. Wake up! Thing is, Russia feared for their kids. Muslim fanatics TRAIN their kids to die. And a nuke would give Iran greater military and diplomatic leverage. For you morons who give Iran and the US moral equivalency, I guess that's a good thing.

Simply stunning.

Unca Alby wrote...
"War is the Health of the State
I don't care which one gains the presidency. We WILL send our troops SOMEWHERE. You can take that to the bank."

Not even 7 years after 4 airliners went down and 8 buildings were destroyed, all during the course of a perfect Tuesday morning, and people already forget WHY we're doing what we're doing. Both amazing and scary.

I will not advocate attacking anywhere there's a perceived threat. You need to weigh and consider each step of this anti-terror war, understanding the risks and potential consequences (something we failed to do adequately before overthrowing Saddam). But it sounds like you're mocking the idea of the US sending troops anywhere. a) We're the default world police, unfortunately, because the org that's supposed to handle those duties -- the UN -- has failed miserably at it. Just ask the poor folks of Darfur. Or... goodness... how many nations would I have to list here? b) NATO, an example of our trying to rally the world community behind us -- what you lefties are always screaming -- has shown itself to be weak. Germany's latest blunder in Afghanistan is a good case in point. We try to get them behind us and they drop the ball. c) But this terror war is all about US national security. We ignored the SOBs for 2 decades, and gradually they stepped up their attacks. They didn't leave us alone. They came back for more. THAT is the result of your pacifist philosophy.

A paper tiger the US is, they say. With people like some of the folks commenting here (and Chapman), I think they're right.

What cr*p Chapman
Just about everything in your article is wrong. You should stick with things you know something about, as it is obvious you know absolutely NOTHING about the military.

Your wrongness begins with the Soviets. As someone who got to play games with them after Vietnam I can personally tell you their military was about like their economy and your knowledge; it was cr*p. That is why they had so MUCH of it. That was standard Soviet doctrine handed down from good old Uncle Joe. Quantity has a quality of its own was his saying for things military. You could have cr*p as long as you had a LOT of cr*p. Now on to Iran.

If you believe that NIE that Iran has stopped working on a nuclear weapon then you are dumber than a post. The CIA needs a housecleaning worse than the Republicrat party does. It is currently full of liberal activists who go out of their way to sabotage anything Bush does. When a Commiecrats is in power and they are not trying to undermine policy they undermine success by shear incompetence. Remember the great bombing of the Chinese Embassy in that other “unauthorized by the U.N. (or congress) war.

As for Iran’s military they could make a lot of trouble in the area if we do nothing, which is what is happening now. If we got off our sses and decided enough was enough and committed ourselves to an all out attack we would go through them like sh*t through a goose. That is what happened in Iraq, the actual war was nothing. What is difficult is the “nation building” side of all this. The U.S. has never been good at nation building, particularly in locations that the population is still stuck in the 7th century.

Which appears to be your problem, still stuck in the 7th century.

Worse than appeasers.
Lest we forget, Iran has killed Americans in Beruit, Saudi Arabia, and right now in Iraq. We should squash the leadership of this lunatic regime before they get the bomb, because once they do ... there is no stopping them. WE should bomb their 'special forces' back to the stoneage, and decapitate as much of the leadership as possible, and the Irainian people will gladly do the rest. The Obama policy (drooling liberal treason) is the only thing keeping our government from acting in the intertest of the American people. You guttless blame Bush first, last, and always clowns are going to get a lot of Americans killed, and the last thing you'll do is admit your responsibility. All we get from your kind are catcalls from the cheap seats. Thanks for nothing.

He's Learned Nothing
Iran is a much bigger threat to the US than Russia and China were to us 40 years ago. They have a power over us that is greater than all the nuclear weaponry of the Reds back then.

All the world now knows that America is indeed a paper tiger, just like Mao said. America has the greatest military in the history of the planet, but it no longer has the will or the wisdom to defeat its enemies. In fact, America now allows its enemies to dictate military strategy and it fears the accusations of insensitivity more than it fears losing wars.

The nuclear threat over us since WW II was indeed scary and some of us remember well the Cuban missile crisis and other alarms. But we had mature adults in charge then. Not the case today. We're led by idiots and spineless jellyfish, who order our troops into battle with orders to lose so as not to offend the enemy and "world opinion".

Half of this country and many in our "leadership" openly support the enemy. We cannot win under these conditions.

This writer is like much of America today. Even after witnessing 19 men on 9/11, armed with pocket knives and ingenuity, outwit our entire national defenses, and after seeing our inability and unwillingness to pacify a minor fourth rate nation defended by a bunch of thieves, he deludes himself in believing that our assets alone can protect us. Blind fool.

So maybe it's not a bad idea for a new president to seek favorable surrender terms and perhaps delay for a few years our demise. In the interim our ruling elites can make arrangements to relocate to safe havens in other countries like happens when all formerly great empires crumble and are overrun by victorious adversaries.






I can get liberal appeasing tax-lovers .
... on Huffington Post or Daily Kos. Why do we want them here?

Whistling in the Graveyard
If Iran was dedicated to peace and cooperation with its neighbors, why are they continuing to promote unrest in Iraq? Why do they continue to support terrorist organization in their work to upset the democratic government of Lebanon? It is not just what is happening in Iran but the overall Middle East that one needs to judge the effect of the regime in the question. It is naive to say that this is not a major concern. All large scale wars have begun with small conflicts. Forewarned is forearmed!

Finally,
a rational assessment of the threat Iran poses to us.

You trust Juan Cole? What the...?
Since when do columnists at TownHall trust the likes of Juan Cole?

Also, although Iran isn't very powerful, we are much weaker than we were fifty years ago, not in terms of the military but in terms of our will. We are divided, and every warlike action we take is treated by the msm as the equivalent of Auschwitz.

So, if we want to attack Iran, the best way to do it is via a lot of small units making the occasional foray across the border. The msm will never notice. Plus, we should stir up ethnic tensions as much as possible.

Calm down, Koolaid drinkers.
In "1984", the state compelled its citizens to attend the cinema where the evil Emmanual Goldstein was portrayed on the silverscreen, mouthing anti-state slogans, as the citizens of the state, with faces contorted in rage, hurled objects at the screen, shouted insults at the image of Goldstein.

It was called "Two-Minutes Hate".

The state conjured up Goldstein, invented him, made him the embodiment of evil, and duped an ignorant populace into focusing its manufactured hatred onto this contrived anti-state figure.

Now, maybe the Iranian leaders are as some Kool-Aid drinkers claim.

Or maybe certain interests are making the Iranians this century's dreaded Goldstein.

Our nation must do what is in OUR national interest.

No disrespect for Israel, but our troops and our nation ought not go to war for the benefit of Israel, as a few previous posters seem to advocate.

That is just plain nuts.

Chapman scores some excellent points.

Iranian influence on Iraq would be next to nil if Saddam was still in power.

Don't blame Iran for that.

Blame Bush, and the current Iraqi government.

We should help in the over throw of ...
the MULLAHS so the Persians could, once again, govern their own country. We should let the Iranian people know that we support their desire to rule themselves. The Mullahs are simply Arabian despots. In history the Persians were much more reasonable than the radical nut jobs from Arabia.

I say help your friends and do not give quarter to your enemies.

A Brave New War
The military capability of a nation and its ability to wage warfare in the 21st century will not be strictly measured by the size of its military. This is an industrial era measure. Warfare now is, and, will be characterized by a different measure of success and total war. A good example here is the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah conflict and the recent 6 hour take-over of West Beirut. Iran and those like it will use proxies, economic Jihad, diplomatic jihad and political jihad to destroy anything that does live up to their notions and ideals of Islam. Non-State actors will be empowered to wreck democratic and liberal states. Military organizations, like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, also have massive civilian business interests and ownership in construction and oil and gas companies. These organizations not only gain access to critical strategic information and key infra-structures, they generate millions in profits to further fund other operations.
There can NO TALKS. Terrorists only understand one thing - Power -
Dr. Terry Tucker
Mobile Training Team/Counterinsurgency Trainer- Afghanistan

Lets see
Camp #1:
Iran is a huge threat to the United States.

Camp #2:
Iran is not much of a threat.

Hmmm.

As for the Holy NIE
I was astounded to realize that those who prepared it concluded that because Iran had, in fact, ended their nuclear arms development program, there was no danger- even though they continue to enrich U238 to U235 nonstop.

Apparently, no one involved in writing the NIE understands the difference between a development program and a production program. Once your Research and Development program succeeds in producing a workable system (be it for a nuclear weapon or a new and improved electric toothbrush), you naturally end the R&D phase- and move on to the production phase.

(In World War Two, there was a saying; "Sooner or later, you have to fire the designers and start the production line moving.")

The fact that Iran is continuing to increase its stockpile of weapon-grade uranium (which can be used in several different types of bomb design, some of them fairly simple and mule-stupid to build), and is also stockpiling the necessary equipment to build even highly sophisticated weapons (think; kryton switches), and the only reasonable conclusion is that it's not if they intend to exercise the "nuclear option", but when and how.

As for the idea that they wouldn't give such a weapon to terrorists, why not? First of all, no matter how often it is protested otherwise, their "government" (which operates on an eschatological basis, not a realistic one) is fundamentally irrational. And secondly, as for their "fear" of retaliation- if a terrorist group is responsible for a nuclear explosion (or just a load of radioactive dust in a truck bomb)- how do you prove that Iran was involved?

It's called "plausible deniability". Like the difference between "R&D" and "production", something else those who wrote the NIE don't seem to comprehend.

And apparently, neither does Mr. Chapman.

cheers

eon

talent scout
As Chapman notes, Iran has not actually threatened anyone. If you are thinking of Ahmadinejad's statement to Israel that "We will bury you" that was actually Kruschev's statement to the US.

The idea that Iran has threatened us while the Russians haven't is rather bizarre.

Apollo Speaks
You are right, for 12 years we tried various attempts to deal with Hussein and he stubbornly continued to not be a threat to us. Had we not invaded Iraq he likely would have had the nerve to not be a threat to us forever.

But by invading we did pretty much the only thing that would have put him in a position to kill some of our troops, so I suppose after a fashion we did end Hussein's irresponsible not be a threat to us. Mission Accomplished.

Wrong again
Russia always acted in their best interest in pushing anyone/any nation around that they could. The motives of Iran aren't in their best interest. They are blinded by ignornace, fury and hatred.

Right!
Sounds like appeasement to me. This would go over good at the Daily Kos.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Iran is run by terrorist. The only difference between the Mullas in Iran and OBL is the flavor of Islam they worship.

Cut to the chase...
Elect me POTUS, and my foreign policy as it relates to Islamofascism and terrorism is pretty simple, is loudly and directly announced on day one to the entire world, does not change one iota, and is vigourously and unremittingly applied until I am either dead or leave office, whichever comes first. That policy is as follows:

1) The United States supports the right of followers of Islam and all other recognized religion to PEACEFULLY practice their religion.
2) No killing American citizens in your country or elsewhere.
3) No advocating the killing of American citizens in your country or elsewhere.
4) No giving aid and/or comfort, or harboring of, persons either killing or advocating the killing of American citizens.
5) Any violations of rules 2,3, or 4 as stated above will result in immediate punitive diplomatic, economic, and/or military action of sufficeint strength to prevent the recurrence of such violation of our policy.

I remain,

Your Most Humble and Obedient Servant,

George Washington


CC
And yet the Iranians have managed to slowly and steadily build on their interests for the last 28 years. So somehow they have managed to do better than the Russians at pursuing their own best interests. So what makes you think they haven't been trying?

completely misguided
First off, the NIE estimate has been roundly criticized for its misleading text. Iran had suspended its program for weapons delivery, not on weapons development. Weapons development has not been suspended. Additionally, the statement
"Even if Iran were to acquire atomic bombs, there is no reason to think it would use them or turn them over to terrorists." is completely crazy! They are already providing terrorists with weapons throughout the region!
The author of this editorial needs to get a clue.

Find your smile
MY BLOG for the latest in political parodies!
Check it out!

That is your thinking Lon
Not mine, you not know the difference?
----


Lon writes:
- 9:29 AM EST
talent scout
As Chapman notes, Iran has not actually threatened anyone. If you are thinking of Ahmadinejad's statement to Israel that "We will bury you" that was actually Kruschev's statement to the US.
--------
ts:
Ahmadinejad is the man who committed an Act of War in 1979, and took over the American Embassy.
Khruschev never done that,Ahmadinejad did.

Ahmadinejad also has promised to destroy the USA, along with Israel.

You say he is a nice guy, sorry Lon, I do not think he is, even if you think him friendly, I don't.

Just recently, your friend had this to say:
September 23rd 2007
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood before a banner blaring "Death to America,"
He is not a nice guy Lon, even if you like him and think he is.

------



Lon writes:

The idea that Iran has threatened us while the Russians haven't is rather bizarre.
---
ts:
Seeing how neither I, nor anyone else, on this entire thread said that, I find it bizarre for you to imagine it has been said.

Why not join the real world and get out of the imaginations of your mind Lon?
It will do wonders for your mental health, probably your reading ability too.

Lon, you work for Ahmadinejad?
You sure support him on this thread, and see him as friendly.
How long you been in America Lon?

Did you immigrate here or just decide to help him as much as you can from thinking America is the great satan as he does?

Take America out of the picture all together, and we still have a madman pursuing Nuclear Weapons to use them.
This guy is the same sort of thinker that flew airplanes in the WTC and the Pentagon.
You think he has good intentions and is friendly, wants peace?
He is responsible for creating the defensive posture Israel must take, with or without the USA.


An even worse danger than Iran
No, I do not feel confident that we can just chill out and assume that Iran would never use nukes on someone else or hand them over to their terrorist allies. Unfortunately, the worst problem with the Iran threat is that it overshadows the coming China threat. Sadly, none of the remaining candidates for POTUS even demonstrates an acknowlegement that China's rulers have plans for our destruction. John McCain is as clueless as Clinton and Obama on this threat. Moreover, the worst danger about the China threat is that its military command has bragged that it is committed to find weapons that either will neutralize our nuclear arms or else can annihilate our people through non-nuclear weapons of mass destruction. But this possiblilty is beyond the comprehension of our leaders and citizens alike. Yet, nanotechnology could indeed eventually give them the means to do this.

I do not like GW Bush, any longer
But the real problem in America is the enemies among us who will not pound on Ahmadinejad as they do the President.
That is extremely BIZZARE.

The President lands on an Aircraft Carrier that had completed it mission and placed a Banner up that declared it had, and the enemy of America among us is still going on and on about that banner.

Yet NEVER commenting on the Banner Ahmadinejad stands in front of every time he addresses the press.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad stood before a banner blaring "Death to America,"
Just a few short months ago, and has done this since 1979.
People like Lon think he is friendly, now that is amazing to me, as well as bizarre.



Never threatened anyone?
Lon wrote "As Chapman notes, Iran has not actually threatened anyone" I hope there are no other TH readers dumb enough to believe that. Chapman just quotes one supposed scholar who says that "wipe off the map" is not a good translation of what Ahmadinejad said. I realize some scholars have translated his words as "erase off the map". If anyone actually wants to see a collection of some of the threats made by Ahmadinejad, you can try http://www.adl.org/main_International_Affairs/ahmadinejad_ words.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_2

Am I on towhhall? Arianna?
Huffington?- are you now hacking into Townhall? That's really low even for you.

Hoping the regular TH site comes back up soon, I feel weaker already having read that.

talent scout
Do you have to like someone to think that it is best to say true things about him? That is a very puzzling view.

I dislike Ahmadinejad and wish we did not pursue the kind of policies that help make people like him popular enough to be elected in Iran. But that said, I don't see the advantage that you apparently do of pretending that he is more hostile than the Russians were or anything like the threat that they were.

Dealing with reality is in our best interest. Pretending that minor powers like Iran are really serious threats like the Soviets were is very much against Americas interest. I suppose I could question your patriotism based on your pushing for policies that hurt America, but then I would need to have your lack of character, wouldn't I.

Ind Observer
You posted a link to a collection of quotes in which Ahmadinejad predicts that other people will do various things to Israel. His powers of prediction do not seem to be very good. But do you have a link in which he actually threatens that Iran will attack anyone?

Can I have some?
Damn, Mr. Chapman. Where'd you get the Kool Aid? Can I have some?

No pretensions to believing
Ahmadinejad means what he says Lin.
How is it possible to be prestentious in just accepting the man for what he has benn saying since 1979?
And was IGNORED, until he began pursuing Nuclear Weapons!
Still ISSUING the same threats he made when he really did storm the American Embassy!
Obama is the man who is defending Ahmadinejad, against America, Israel and the President.
The President did not say anything in Israel any different than US Policy has been for 60 YEARS now.
And this self-centered man, Obama thinks the President was talking about HIM!
lol
Talk about BIZZARE!
Obama has to be NUTS to think the President was even thinking of him when he was speaking to the Israeli's.
This guy Obama thinks the world itself is his to shape, and its all about him.
He is an arrogant little twerp.





Lon 12:01 PM EST
talent scout
Do you have to like someone to think that it is best to say true things about him? That is a very puzzling view.
----
ts:
You make it very hard to think you do not like him better than you do the President of the USA by you support for him over the President.
You are intentionally overlooking all that man in Iran is saying and doing, to take shots at the President.
So why would you do that if you do not like the man?
Quite obvious you are choosing sides here, as there is only two sides.
The Presidents views, up for discussion, or saying as Chapman did, he has not issued any threats.

This is an out right LIE!

cont...


Lon writes:
I dislike Ahmadinejad and wish we did not pursue the kind of policies that help make people like him popular enough to be elected in Iran.
-----
ts:
Do you not know how this guy got in power?
He got his start under Jimmy Carter's policies.
Which is the real disaster for the Iranian people and the entire Mid-East.
The Mullahs gained this power they have under the Carter Administrations policies.
LONG before GW Bush was even in Politics.
It is not the Presidents creation he has to deal with a madman as the Iranian President is.
Its insane to blame him, and not the fanatics in Iran, supported by Jimmy Carter.
-----

Lon writes:
But that said, I don't see the advantage that you apparently do of pretending that he is more hostile than the Russians were or anything like the threat that they were.
----
ts:
Lets begin where I said that Lon.
I never said that and you know it.
You are making it up.
I was on an LST and headed for a Beach landing in Cuba because of the threat by the USSR to America in 1962.
And for you to lie and say I said what you are making up, shows you are an intentional liar, Lon.
cont...


Lon writes:
Dealing with reality is in our best interest. Pretending that minor powers like Iran are really serious threats like the Soviets were is very much against Americas interest.
----
ts:
Everyone on this thread can read this above statement and see its completely made up by you Lon.
Why do you think we all cannot see you are making it up out of your own mind?
No one has said that Lon, so you are proving just one thing.
You lie and are not credible, just like the President of Iran, whom you are supporting over the President.

I was involved in the Greatest Threat of War this Nation ever had in 1962 while the USSR had placed Missiles in Cuba.
My own life was on the line diue th that threat.
The greatest Threat we have ever faced for Nuclear War.
And that was then, and this is NOW.
The USSR is gone.
The Iranian Hitler with suicidal iintentions for the world is a very present and real danger.
I know it, you know it, and if you lie about that threat, then you are with him and not America.
And I will view you as a supporter of the enemies of America that flew airplanes into American Buildings and killing thousands of innocent Americans.
-----



Lon writes:
I suppose I could question your patriotism based on your pushing for policies that hurt America, but then I would need to have your lack of character, wouldn't I.
-----
ts:
I don't mind you saying that Lon.
You can say anything you want to as far as I am concerned.
Just as the madman who you support can.
I will just consider both of you America's enemy.

There is no man in America, today
Thats knows better than I do what threat the Soviet Union was to America.
I was in the First Wave assigned to hit the Beaches of Cuba as we sat off the Coast of Cuba in October 1962.
Waiting for the Order to go in.
The Russians were headed for Cuba bringing more Missiles to Aim them at America, and the US Navy has set up a Blockade to stop them, and I was out there with the US Navy on LST 983.
My life was in danger as it had never been.
And for Lon to come and make up accusations about my knowledge of Russia v. America is from an intentional lie.
His only reason he can have to do that, would be to support the madman in Iran, just as Jimmy Carter did and does.Which man is the real reson the fanatics gained power in Iran, and terrorism has been spread all over the world.
Jimmy Carters Policies.
Long before GW Bush ever got into politics.

Plus the fact i have intimate knowledge of the Soviet System, have two in-laws who once worked for the KGB.
One of them under Khruchev.
I am just telling this to let all know I know exactly what danger the USSR was to America.
But that was THEN...Ahmadinejad is NOW

There is no man in America, today
Thats knows better than I do what threat the Soviet Union was to America.
I was in the First Wave assigned to hit the Beaches of Cuba as we sat off the Coast of Cuba in October 1962.
Waiting for the Order to go in.
The Russians were headed for Cuba bringing more Missiles to Aim them at America, and the US Navy has set up a Blockade to stop them, and I was out there with the US Navy on LST 983.
My life was in danger as it had never been.
And for Lon to come and make up accusations about my knowledge of Russia v. America is from an intentional lie.
His only reason he can have to do that, would be to support the madman in Iran, just as Jimmy Carter did and does.Which man is the real reson the fanatics gained power in Iran, and terrorism has been spread all over the world.
Jimmy Carters Policies.
Long before GW Bush ever got into politics.

Plus the fact i have intimate knowledge of the Soviet System, have two in-laws who once worked for the KGB.
One of them under Khruchev.
I am just telling this to let all know I know exactly what danger the USSR was to America.
But that was THEN...Ahmadinejad is NOW

There is no man in America, today
Thats knows better than I do what threat the Soviet Union was to America.
I was in the First Wave assigned to hit the Beaches of Cuba as we sat off the Coast of Cuba in October 1962.
Waiting for the Order to go in.
The Russians were headed for Cuba bringing more Missiles to Aim them at America, and the US Navy has set up a Blockade to stop them, and I was out there with the US Navy on LST 983.
My life was in danger as it had never been.
And for Lon to come and make up accusations about my knowledge of Russia v. America is from an intentional lie.
His only reason he can have to do that, would be to support the madman in Iran, just as Jimmy Carter did and does.Which man is the real reson the fanatics gained power in Iran, and terrorism has been spread all over the world.
Jimmy Carters Policies.
Long before GW Bush ever got into politics.

Plus the fact i have intimate knowledge of the Soviet System, have two in-laws who once worked for the KGB.
One of them under Khruchev.
I am just telling this to let all know I know exactly what danger the USSR was to America.
But that was THEN...Ahmadinejad is NOW

There is no man in America, today
Thats knows better than I do what threat the Soviet Union was to America.
I was in the First Wave assigned to hit the Beaches of Cuba as we sat off the Coast of Cuba in October 1962.
Waiting for the Order to go in.
The Russians were headed for Cuba bringing more Missiles to Aim them at America, and the US Navy has set up a Blockade to stop them, and I was out there with the US Navy on LST 983.
My life was in danger as it had never been.
And for Lon to come and make up accusations about my knowledge of Russia v. America is from an intentional lie.
His only reason he can have to do that, would be to support the madman in Iran, just as Jimmy Carter did and does.Which man is the real reson the fanatics gained power in Iran, and terrorism has been spread all over the world.
Jimmy Carters Policies.
Long before GW Bush ever got into politics.

Plus the fact i have intimate knowledge of the Soviet System, have two in-laws who once worked for the KGB.
One of them under Khruchev.
I am just telling this to let all know I know exactly what danger the USSR was to America.
But that was THEN...Ahmadinejad is NOW

Computer glitch
Or site problem caused the multiple posts, it was not intentional.

Huffington Post
I had to look at my calendar to make sure this wasn't 1 April. This guy quotes Juan Cole as a credible source? Wowzie!

talent scout
There was an early claim that Ahmadinejad may have been somebody important with the revolution back in 1979, but that seems to have been a case of mistaken identity. He may have been a supporter of the movement back then, but there does not seem to be any evidence that he was anything but a follower.

During the period when the more moderate Khatami was president in Iran, Ahmadinejad became mayor of Teheran and with the failure of Khatami to show any advantages from moderation, he became President.

The President of Iran is not actually the power in Iran, that is held by the mullahs who are not elected and do not let Ahmadinejad set nuclear proliferation policies.

I am not as confident as you are that Ahmadinejad means what he says. I do not put lying past him. I am not sure why you have such faith in his honesty. It is still worth noting that the things he has said do not include threatening to attack either the US or Israel. That is likely due to the fact that Iran has no credible military threat against either country and would be wiped out if it tried such an attack. That does not mean he doesn't want to do it. It is simply not true that he has said he will do it.

talent scout
Sitting on a military ship is not necessarily the best position to understand foreign affairs, since after all one is being trained to respond to things if they go a particular way, and so may be more likely to be convinced that they will go that way.

But that said, I expect we are both glad that Kennedy did not follow the current Bush/McCain line of not talking with dictators and instead followed a path more similar to the one advocated by Obama. That way you never had to make the landing you were being prepared for. That is another good example of how negotiating with bad people can work.

Obviously we did not convince Kruschev that we were right and he was wrong. But we did come to a mutual accomodation that may have saved your life. So that is another good example of the usefulness of negotiating with bad people.

Hats back on, gentlemen.
An idiot.

It's hard to believe anyone could be this foolish.

"Even if Iran were to acquire atomic bombs, there is no reason to think it would use them or turn them over to terrorists."

I tell you what. Let's agree on this. Even if the United States builds up aircraft carriers and Tomahawk missile shooters and Air Force logistical capability near the Persian Gulf and across south Asia, there is no reason to think we would use them against Iran.

We probably just resent old slights from Iran, and others in the region. We remember the Cold War, and how important it was to be armed and ready against whatever nations were being armed by the Russians, as Iran is today. We have good reason to feel the need to build up forces in Southwest Asia. But we certainly don't intend to USE them. There's no reason to think THAT. Stop being such a nancy-pants.

I'll believe yours if you'll believe mine. Deal? Then we can get back to all that crystal clarity we had in the Cold War, and yearn for so much now. What are you, twelve? You obviously weren't out of diapers when the Cold War was still raging, if you think it was a time of "clarity" to be yearned for.

In fact, there were plenty of guys just like you who said the same things of the Soviet Union that you say of Iran.

If Ahmadinejad...
were a powerless twit simply posting his diatribes on the internet for sane people to ridicule, then I would agree he is not a serious threat. But, unfortunately, he is the president of Iran, a country that according to our state department has been among the world leaders in sponsoring terrorism for decades. A country which trains and exports suicide bombers and other terrorists in the middle east and other parts of the world. A country which has been continually providing personnel and weapons to kill US soldiers and Iraqi civilians.
You claim he is not a threat. Tell that to my neighbor who is currently serving in Afghanistan after two tours of duty in Iraq. His closest friend whom he had served with side by side since his enlistment was blown up by an Iranian made IED while protecting the Iraqi population at the end of their second deployment. I wish Ahmadinejad would pay my neighbor a visit in Afghanistan. Then he would no longer pose a threat to anyone ever again.

What do you know no one else does?
Lon writes:- 2:04 PM EST
talent scout
Sitting on a military ship is not necessarily the best position to understand foreign affairs, since after all one is being trained to respond to things if they go a particular way, and so may be more likely to be convinced that they will go that way.
-----
ts:
All foreign affairs get reduced down to a very sharp focus and can be seen exactly what they are all about.
As all of us involved in the Cuban Crisis seen much more clearer than you sit at home generals.
And especially those of us who faced off with the Russian Navy.
---
Lon
But that said, I expect we are both glad that Kennedy did not follow the current Bush/McCain line of not talking with dictators and instead followed a path more similar to the one advocated by Obama.

-------
ts:
Nothing is clearer now either, than seeing you support the greatest moron who ever ran for President of this Great Nation.
Obama is not fit for holding the office he now has, let alone my President.
Just another moron like Carter, who aided the terrorism now seen and Obama supports by his stupid naive policy "speech" thank God is all it is too.
---
Lon writes:

That way you never had to make the landing you were being prepared for. That is another good example of how negotiating with bad people can work.
---
ts: It was the show of Force that stopped the USSR.
The words without the action were nothing.
Except warm spit.
----
Lon writes:
Obviously we did not convince Kruschev that we were right and he was wrong. But we did come to a mutual accomodation that may have saved your life. So that is another good example of the usefulness of negotiating with bad people.
----
ts:
Thanks to the Strength Kennedy had, to use the Armed Forces, the ONLY thing that got Khruchevs attention.
Obama is the epitome of a fool in the line of Abner.
Go learn who Abner was, he died like a fool trusting in negotiations and words of peace to a man wearing a sword.

no really
Iran is a peaceful country, they love non muslims, to each their won they say. Wonderful place to vacation. Bring your bible. Oh, can you sign your will over to me?

Eye witness's
With Ahmadinejad's recent publicity, five former U.S. hostages Dr. William Daugherty (who worked for the CIA in Iran), Kevin Hermening, David Roeder, US Army Col. Charles Scott (Ret.), and US Navy Capt. Donald Sharer (Ret.) have alleged that Ahmadinejad was one of the leaders of the Iran Hostage Crisis at the U.S. embassy in Tehran, during their 444-day captivity starting on November 4, 1979. All of the above-mentioned hostages have claimed that Ahmadinejad is the man whom they remember from their captivity.
----
I believe these guys
He was involved either way, as he himself admits being involved with Komeni's support of it.
Fact's are, no matter who he was then, he is an insane madman today.
Stirring up the call to war, daily.
Threatening Israel's existance.

Anyone who tries to deny this basic fact, supports him, Obama included.

Lets see
Iranian leaders say Iran is a place they would sacrifice in order to advance the spread of Islam. They believe this would happen if they could usher in the end times. A nuclear war would be just the thing to do that. They are islamofaschism on steriods. I take them at their word. Mabye you should to. As McCain said, the only thing worse than war with Iran is a nuclear armed Iran.

We need realistic threat assessments
Chapman has it right. Russia during the cold war was a much greater threat than Iran is now. Is Iran no threat at all? Of course not. They are basically arming shiite factions in Iraq. This could be considered an act of war. However what are the options for the US? Invade Iran? Iran is a mountainous country with three times the population of Iraq. Where would the troops come from? The military is stretched thin as it is. To get the manpower you would have to draft. To draft you have to have the support of the American people.
Reading some of the posters it sounds like some think that as long as Iran poses any threat at all to the US, we need to take them out. This is fear talking. Some risks you have to live with. Bush talked the country into a war based on hypotheticals once. Hopefully that won't happen again. The majority of the American people are not afraid of Iran. If Iran does something totally outrageous to the US, then they are done. They will have awakened the sleeping giant.
The fear mongerers on the right who would like for the US to use its military power against each and every perceived threat, want the sleeping giant to awake earlier. But that is only because they themselves are afraid. The sleeping giant isn't afraid.

activated
Of course Iran is an excellent place for Christians to vacation. I here that's the subject for Michael Moorons next movie.

to all the war nuts
This was the best article i've read on TH to date. For those who missed the point let me spell it out. We are and have been the aggressors in the middle-east against all nations except Israel (in alternating fashion based on who fit our needs best at the time) since 1953. We went in & overthrew Iran's gov't and installed a vicious dictator. Then when we didn't like how the Iraninan people overthrew our choice of their leader, so we armed their rival (iraq) and put them on task to bow iran to our will. So to those who questioned the historical accuracy of Chapman's position, I say you missed some important points.

So, try to understand that WE, the UNITED STATES, started this and at no point have we given any indication that we are ready to quit. What would you do in Iran's position? Just think about that, we overthrew the British for the same kind of injustices that we have visited on the Iranian people.

Next, would everyone please stop linking terrorism with national gov'ts. Please, I know they do it on TV, but the two institutions are fundamentally opposed. Al Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq. I know what you're gonna say next, but what about hezbollah & hamas? Both of those organizations are responses from the people to our arming and inserting the Israeli nation in their midst and setting them loose like a pit on a burglar. Iran and Syria have taken advantage of these since, but we gave them the opportunity. Also, please consider that while both hamas & hezbollah do have military branches, they also have public works & social branches which have outperformed those of the gov'ts in place (which we back) and these are a big part of the popular support they receive from their countrymen (bigger than the violence fyi - not all muslims/middle easterners are terrorists).


to conclude...
Finally can we please get off this idea that force and the use of can solely solve our problems. It won't (unless you advocate the genocide of a given people) and at this point in human history it should be an antiquated idea. I am not saying, dismantle the army, but come on, NO ONE can stand toe to toe with us. Besides, ehe benevolent ruler is always received better than the vicious one.

Chapman, could your next article please be about how America is the new imperial power and how its citizens by & large seem oblivious to this....

Ind Observer & activated
your trying to oversimplify a complex problem, do you think an invasion is the answer? If so are you willing to man the frontline? because if you aren't (or you're not willing to send your children) you should be searching for another solution.


Remember the kid , got his head chopped
Off
David ...... something. Berg? I think thats it.

He trusted he could talk to the terrorists, the terrorists Ahmadinejad trains, supports with arms and finance, and goals.


The head of terrorism is the man Ahmadinejad.
Now all you who believe his intentions are for peace, so be it, fools are born every minute.

I can still hear his screams,(Berg) screams of terror that will echo for eternity.
Simply because he was a moron who thought he had some power to negotiate with people like Ahmadinejad.

Five militants dressed in black stood behind the man, four of them armed with assault rifles, with a black Tawhid and Jihad banner on the wall behind them. The militant in the center read out a statement, as the hostage rocked back and forth and side to side where he sat.

After finishing the statement, the militant pulled a knife, rushed to the hostage from behind and cut his throat until the head was severed.

The victim gasped loudly as blood poured from his neck. His killer held up the head at one point, and placed the head on top of the body.


It would make me happy to watch Obama take his policy of negotiations into the streets of Baghdad, or Felujah, or in Iran and any city under the madman Ahmadinejad.

Lets see this fool put into action his own words,
He will never do that, as he knows as well as all of us they would kill him in a heart beat, and get his head chopped off, which would be the best thing he could do for America.

Yes, the best thing Obama could do for America is to follow through to the certain conclusion his own policy would take him to, and get his moronic head chopped off.
The very best thing he can do for America

The issue is defense
ucanthandletruth Location: PA
3:56 PM EST
to conclude...
Finally can we please get off this idea that force and the use of can solely solve our problems.
----
ts:
All the threat of force is coming from Ahmadinejad.

Take your stump,or your soap box to Iran and preach on brother

talent scout
you assessment on NICHOLAS Berg is way off. he went to Iraq for a job, radio comm specifically. His friends painted him as a neo-con, so the odds of him going to talk it out with Iraqis are slim to none, unless there is a part of neo-con ideaology i missed.... Second, you're forgetting that that horrible act was a response to... our torture of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Gharaib, none of which were given due process, or treated with the basic human dignity we take for granted here. Yes these people are dangerous, but in order to keep the moral highground you can't just talk it, you have to live it, and often that means dieing for your beliefs, like a certain figure i remember... what was his name ... o right Jesus Christ. That which you do to the least of my flock you do to me... words to live by my friend... to anyone who reads this just remember it is a dangerous world and you will be hurt, but WE CANNOT LIVE IN FEAR!!!!

talent scout
Dude, have you missed all the "leaks" on our game-planning for an Iran attack strategy? Or maybe you missed when they came to us after we invaded Iraq and offered us all the concessions we wanted, but we spurned them in our arrogance. The way I see it, we have been threatening them way more than they have us. We are cuirrently the #1 aggressor in the world (which is about the only thing we are still #1 at). We are not some perfect nation incapable of evil or misdeeds, open your eyes...

ApolloSpeaks
"The spiritual dimension of jihad is ignored to our peril as it is the crux of the conflict and is resolvable only by war."
Jihadis represent the vast minority of the muslim people. Think about it, if 1 billion people (the estimate of muslims in the world) really wanted to embark on a jihad, there would be nowhere to hide, run or be safe. Funny thing, we are living in some of the safest times in the history of mankind. So please do not buy into the media hype machine, which is all it is, a swipe at ratings. The true solution to this problem lies in much more boring, long term solutions. Starting with no longer reinforcing the Middle eastern perception that we are aggressors bent on eliminating their way of life (which is the recruiting line the jihadis preach to disillusioned children). Education is also a key, ever wonder why in Afghanistan al qaeda spends more time attacking schools than troops? They are trying to reinforce ignorance which is their best friend. Force is meant to be a last resort, not the first.

ApolloSpeaks
We do not believe that "War is good and beneficial for mankind,

Actually apollo, if you check into the neo-con thinking post cold-war, that is exactly what they thought and that thinking is exactly what got us into Iraq. The fact is that the last 8 yrs for america have been an exercise in imperial muscle-flexing on a global scale and that has led us to our current impasse. I feel that more of the same isn't the answer.

I do apologize for the war nuts comment that was inflammatory & unecessary, but i had fun with it anyway ;).

ApolloSpeaks
Also apollo, by and large the iranian people want the same things we do, peace, a safe place to raise their kids and a chance to earn a decent wage. Our ideaological beef is with a man at the pulpit who has no real power in their gov't (that belongs to the ayatollah).

ApolloSpeaks
One last thing, it does not scare me that some random baddie out there wants to see me dead. I live in west phila, aka little baghdad. Before that I lived in brownsville, brooklyn. People get killed here for no reason except to inspire terror in the populace (sometimes not even for that much, sometimes just becuz), and i still walk the streets. Death comes to us all eventually, unfortunately. the fear of will not rule my life or my decisions and I would hope it could be the same for you.

I'm disappointed in you
Part 1
Though on their faces Obama’s statement is false, & McCain’s seems reactionary, that take can only be maintained by those who are naïve. Those who know how to listen should recognize that Obama’s statement was meant to minimize concerns over Iran; McCain was reacting to the actual meaning of Obama, rather than a bean-counting comparison of the USSR & Iran. To fail to see that shows that you either have decided the issue before listening, or you don’t know how to listen. Lacking any additional evidence to go on, I am inclined at this point to hold that you are anti-war (as opposed to the reasonable position of being against unnecessary war).

Iran IS a small power when it comes to their military. But you’re begging the question. Few have alleged that in a toe-to-toe battle Iran would be tough. By choosing the context, you guarantee winning the debate.

Consider: 4 jets are hardly a match for our military. Absolute fact. So if the attackers of 9-11 had said that they were going to attack us, it would have been accurate to say that their measly 4 planes didn’t stand a chance AGAINST THE US’s MILITARY. But they didn’t go toe-to-toe with our military, and the actions they took harmed us quite a bit. If Iran is a threat to us in non-military arenae, we need to know that just as we need to know what kind of military threat they pose.

Go preach this in Iran
And let us all watch where it takes you, Mr Berg.




ucanthandletruth 4:17 PM EST
talent scout
Dude,
----
ts:
I hate this stupid word, its highly offensive.
-----
Mr Berg writes:


have you missed all the "leaks" on our game-planning for an Iran attack strategy? Or maybe you missed when they came to us after we invaded Iraq and offered us all the concessions we wanted, but we spurned them in our arrogance. The way I see it, we have been threatening them way more than they have us.
----
ts:
Everything you know, we all know, Mr Berg.
You see no arrogance from Iran?
Name the concessions, and do not leave out the violence from Iran all over the mid-east, or do and be ignored as another dishonest person here.

-----


Mr Berg writes:
We are cuirrently the #1 aggressor in the world (which is about the only thing we are still #1 at). We are not some perfect nation incapable of evil or misdeeds, open your eyes...
----
ts:
I want us out of the mid-east.
I want all foreign entanglements stopped.
I want all foreign aide stopped
I want OPEC to go broke.
Fact is the world is not going to be like I want it to be, or YOU either.
And its certain Ahmadinejad does not care what you want either.
You are foolish

I'm Disappointed
Part 2
You want to evaluate Iran’s leadership along lines that Westerners have historically taken. But they don’t operate in that way. So pointing out that they’re aligned with the gov’t of PM Nouri al-Maliki as an argument that they haven’t also provided arms & training to insurgents in Iraq is a category fallacy. The one simply doesn’t militate against the other.

I find it sad that you want to blame the US for Iran’s posture. You bring up events that are more than a ½ century old to make the case. While it’s true that individuals in that region carry grudges a long time, the reality is that the grudge they’re carrying goes back to 1095’. They believe the West is responsible for every bad thing that has ever befallen them, starting with the Crusades, all the while ignoring the events that would have made the Crusaders feel there was a reason to fight, ignoring the barbarism that they’ve subjected the world to since then. Jefferson was ready to go to war on the Barbary coast in his time, for instance.

This is no reason to go to war with them--I’m not proposing it as such. I’m only saying that your implied US guilt is monstrously unbalanced.

You say, “McCain & many others are convinced that Iran will soon get nuclear weapons & proceed to use them” as if you disagree. Yet their every action points to that. They have a lot of the world coming down on them for their use of centrifuges, and all the other related activities. It would be simple to stop, but they press on. Seems it must be pretty important to them…

You bolster your point with the NIE. But there were plausible assertions that the NIE was a political product of people opposing the Bush administration in any way available to them. Many of its “conclusions” have been challenged.

islam is the same today as then

Neither of these men are involved in todays politics, or propaganda.
And what they said over a 100 years ago is as true today as when they said it first.




"The sword of Muhammad and the Quran are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty, and the truth which the world has yet known." - The eminent orientalist Sir William Muir (1819-1905)




"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step." -- Sir Winston Churchill - circa 1899

I'm Disappointed
Part 3
It is interesting to note the year Iran’s nuclear program ceased--if it did—was the same year we engaged Iraq…
Beyond that, even allowing that they did terminate it in ‘03, that doesn’t mean they haven’t restarted, 8 yrs later.

You say Iran backed off when Iraq started sending missiles to their cities. OK.
Their attitude toward Iraq at that time, compared to their attitude toward Israel is not comparable. Iraq was not seen as a devil in any form. But the US is “the big Satan,” and Israel is “the little Satan.” Harming Israel is a religious triumph, harming Iraq would’ve been a military victory. Not the same.

Then you fall back on the same naïveté. The fact that Iran has not actually said the words, “We want to destroy Israel” doesn’t mean they haven’t made the intent clear. In politics there are many ways to say something so the message is unmistakable, without bluntly (& artlessly) coming out & saying it. Iran has made it clear that the instant they have the ability (should they obtain it) they’ll immediately destroy Israel. They HAVE said that if Iraq were destroyed in a confrontation with Israel, Islam would suffer a minor setback; if Israel were destroyed, it would be a complete victory for Islam. For you to ignore that is foolish, and dangerous to any & all who think you’re making a valid point.

I'm Disappointed
Part 4 (last)

Given the willingness that many from that region have shown to freely die for a small victory (sui. bombers), it’s naïve not to wonder whether nations there might be willing to do the same. The point that inviting annihilation is a deal-breaker is naïve.

You say there’s no reasoning with McCain & his allies, whereby you yourself take a position viz your enemy that you upbraid your enemy for having viz Iran (which in its turn is a false assertion). If you’re convinced there’s no reasoning w/ him, you eliminate reasoning with him as an undertaking.

But for McCain’s part, Im certain that he WOULD reason with Iran if they showed some movement toward ramping down their activities that have brought this about. But they won’t do that if they think that naïve individuals like you are likely to win the day here in America.

I certainly hope the effect of your article in winning people to your point of view is limited…

Here is Ahmadinejah's Foreign Policy
Ayatollah Khomeini

Khomeini delivered notorious rebuke to the Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace crowd:

“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless.

Islam says:

Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!
Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by the unbelievers?

Islam says:

Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter ....

Islam says:

Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword!

People cannot be made obedient except with the sword!

The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors!

There are hundreds of other Qur’anic psalms and Hadiths, sayings of the Prophet urging Muslims to value war and to fight.

Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

ucanttellthetruth
What are you babbling about? When did I or activated mention an invasion?
u said
"Chapman, could your next article please be about how America is the new imperial power and how its citizens by & large seem oblivious to this.... "

How young are you? I had a college professor claiming the same stuff over 30 years ago. The difference between you and I is that I wasn't dumb enough to believe his crap.

Ahmadinejad's Sanity
Steve, you have concluded that Ahmadinejad is rational because...?

nuclear war
here and over at ann coulters thread we have screams of delight over the prospect of war with iran.

lets look at this seriously.

if we simply take out what we believe to be their nuclear capapbilities they will simply march a million men into iraq and the iraqis will stand back and let our brave men and women get killed.

al-sadr has said he will join the iranians and al-maliki is closer to the iranians than al-sadr.

so now what--

now we drop nuclear weapons??

the radiation will kill millions of our allies in israel, kuwait, saudi arabia, turkey and arab emirites.

wow

that is a great idea.


finally, the idea that iran is any way as much of a threat than china or the soveit union is simply a lie.


thank you mr. chapman
for telling the truth,


sometimes i forget that townhall does not represent mainstream conservative thinking.

Great article Steve Chapman
A bit of sanity to counter the exaggerated threats that instill fear that enable the expansion of government size, scope, and power.

There is sanity among some of us conservatives.

Another fact unknown to most cons....

Iranians are Persians and live quite "Western-like" even today.

Dumbest article to ever appear
On Town Hall
You can tell by the dummies that support it

The Iraq Front
Let's get two things straight;
FIRST: the "Iraq war" is only ONE PART of the MUSLIMS WAR AGAINST US.
SECOND: We got involved in Iraq because Hussane had repeatedly violated the terms of peace imposed by the United Nations in '91. These violations included fireing on our patrols several times, an ACT OF WAR.

One bomb
One bomb in the hands of Ahma'jad is more dangerous than 10,000 in the hands of the old Soviet Union.

Lon's Twisted History
Lon Wrote:
"But that said, I expect we are both glad that Kennedy did not follow the current Bush/McCain line of not talking with dictators and instead followed a path more similar to the one advocated by Obama."

Kennedy talked to Khrushchev in 1961, the result was the CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS in 1962! Kennedy DID NOT offer concessions or a compromise, he DEMANDED that the missles be removed, OR ELSE! The Liberals' hero, 'Che' wanted to fire the rockets, but Castro was not suicidal.

all the diplomacy in the world is meaningless unless you have the MILITARY MIGHT and the WILL TO USE IT to back up your words.

heresyarch Wrote:
"Iranians are Persians and live quite "Western-like" even today."

So did the Nazis. Is there a point you're trying to make?
.....
ucanthandletruth;

IF, as you say, prisoners at Abu Grabe were "tortured" by American solders, then every member of every FRATERNITY AND SORORITY have been "tortured". The muslims KNOW what REAL torture is, they see nothing wrong with STONING PEOPLE TO DEATH or SAWING "INFIDELS'" HEADS OFF and posting the videos on You-Tube.
Sane people call that "barbarism" and "savagry". Liberals like you call that "justified".

Petraeus Hearings More Obama than McCain

Does this hurt McCain?

HP- Afghan/Pakistan border region, not Iraq, is the greatest threat: General Petraeus agrees with Admiral Mullen and with our intelligence commnity that the next likely terrorist attack on the U.S. homeland will come from Pakistan and the Federally Administred Tribal Areas. So just to sum up. Our intelligence Community, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and future CENTCOM commander all agree that Pakistan is the greatest danger, but conservatives continue to insist that Iraq is the central front.

2. Petraeus agrees with Gates, not Bush and McCain, on talking to Iran: In his written responses General Petraeus agreed with Secretary Gates that we need a comprehensive approach to Iran that includes real diplomacy and engages on all issues.

3. Odierno acknowledges that there is no need for a permanent presence in Iraq: Despite John McCain’s claims that we can have an indefinite Korea-like presence in Iraq, when asked by Jim Webb about the need for a permanent presence Odierno stated that it would be unnecessary.

4. McCain missing in action: As the ranking member of the Armed Services Committee, you’d think John McCain would show up. But instead he is in California campaigning and fundraising. When Petraeus was last confirmed for Iraq Commander, McCain was off in Davos Switzerland.

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/petraeus-hearings- more-obama-than-mccain

Right you are Greenhornet
It was at the point of Conflict, and the USA was on the Highest Alert this Nation has ever been since WW2.
DEFCON2
Only higher alert is reserved for Imminent Attack


quote:
Kennedy publicly denounced (Oct. 22, 1962) the Soviet actions.

He imposed a naval blockade on Cuba and declared that any missile launched from Cuba would warrant a full-scale retaliatory attack by the United States against the Soviet Union.


On Oct. 24, Russian ships carrying missiles to Cuba turned back, and when Khrushchev agreed (Oct. 28) to withdraw the missiles and dismantle the missile sites, the crisis ended as suddenly as it had begun.

greenhornet
you say this

IF, as you say, prisoners at Abu Grabe were "tortured" by American solders, then every member of every FRATERNITY AND SORORITY have been "tortured".

oh so now you are using rush's perspective huh.

well people died there and military members were tried and convicted.

there are pictures of guys being hung on a cross with battery cables hooked up to their genitals.

is that a fraternity prank?

Note to soft, clueless Westerners
That pipsqueak of a military power Iran has enough power to cause U.S. defeat in Iraq; a nuclear arms race in the Middle East; large-scale terrorist attacks on U.S. soil involving dozens, hundreds, or more deaths; endless terror alerts and gradual erosion of our freedoms; degraded economic conditions; and the eventual installation of Islamic Revolutionists in large portions of the world who will become permanent enemies to the U.S. (effectively cutting these areas off from the civilized world and becoming launching pads for more trouble).

Iran is the epicenter of the Islamic Totalitarianism movement. Tehran is the Rome of the Islamic world. Middle Eastern scholars and observers have been saying this for years. Iran sees nothing less than restoration of a worldwide caliphate with total domination over all aspects of human life; it declared this openly in 1979. It cannot accomplish this because it is not mighty and never will be. But it believes it can, so it will take the lives of some Americans and drastically degrade the quality of that of the rest. And the beatings will continue until our morale improves, our pride returns, and we take action to completely smash their irrational hopes and designs.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as Iran's right to "bleed the U.S. military."

Minus Stars?

Can we give Minus stars?

Hey, TownHall, please give us a mechanism for minus stars!

"Calling Steve Chapman", this is Huff'n'Puff, you will be happier on our site!"

"Calling Steve Chapman", this is "moveyourbowellson.org, you will be happier on our site!"


TownHall, please tell me this is a complete spoof, ala "Loyal Democrat" style.


Comparing Iran to the Soviet Union is
absurd. However, let us not become over zealous in our haste to diminish the threat Iran poses. First off, the technology has changed significantly. While it is true the Soviets had many nuclear warheads...to think ONLY on that vein is absurd. The real threat is DIRTY bombs, that can be carried in a suit case detonated in down town anywhere and KILL tens of thousands mostly by SLOW DEATH...

Those who are so quick to simply dismiss Iran and its subversive policies and proxy wars (they don't do it directly but indirectly through such organizations as Hamas, Al Qaeda and the like) all it takes is one or two handed over to those who could/would/ and already do kill by bombing innnocents on down town streets and in cafe's. It only takes ONE....so if that were to happen after the sceptics dimiish all this are they then going to BLAME THEMSELVES or would then go after the very people who's hands they tie with all their obstructionism...??????

justme
al-queida is sunni as is osama bin laden.

saudi arabia is our real enemy even much more than iran but because the bush family has historical ties to the saudis, we have never confronted them.

they are still teaching wahabi sunni religion in the schools in saudi arabia which is the most radical muslim branch and teaches democracy is evil and Christians should be killed.

the pentagon said about 6 months ago that 50%of the foreign suicide bombers in iraq were saudis.

15 of the nineteen hijackers were saudi.

until bush is gone we really cannot confront the country that is the main exporter of terror and that is saudi arabia.
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