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Monday, March 26, 2007
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
All Illegal Immigration Is Local
by Steve Chapman
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The city government of Hazleton, Pa., got in trouble when it passed a law intended to drive out illegal immigrants. The American Civil Liberties Union sued to overturn the ordinance, arguing that it is the proper task of the federal government, not municipalities, to enforce immigration laws. But when good remedies are absent, it's no surprise to see bad ones emerge.

The ordinance says landlords may not rent to illegal immigrants, employers may not hire them, and merchants may not sell to them -- with stiff penalties for violators. Anyone who wants to rent a home would have to prove his legal residency. And city documents are now provided in English only.

This measure was a response to what some locals say are the problems caused by an influx of people, many of them apparently illegal, which boosted the town's population from 23,000 to 31,000. Those include a surge in crime, an overcrowded emergency room and soaring costs for teaching English to foreign-born children in public schools.

Those suing make a good case against the law. It would discourage companies from doing any kind of business with people who look or sound foreign, promoting discrimination against Hispanics and other minorities. It would penalize U.S. citizens, such as natives of Puerto Rico, who may speak only Spanish.

It would sweep so broadly that some legal immigrants (such as a permanent resident alien who has lost his green card) could be barred from working or even buying groceries. Even the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which favors tighter immigration limits and stricter enforcement, says the ordinance overreaches.

The trial itself, which concluded Thursday and now awaits a verdict, has not shed flattering light on the competence of those who drafted the law. Mayor Lou Barletta said he was compelled to act when a resident was shot to death, allegedly by two illegal immigrants.

But he had trouble explaining why, if illegal immigrants generate crime, they have been implicated in only about 20 of the 8,500 felonies committed in Hazleton in the last six years. ACLU attorney Witold Walczak also pointed out that amid this supposed crime wave, the city has reduced the size of the police force, despite having a budget surplus.

If Hazleton's illegal immigrants are prone to crime, they're the exception. Despite the growth of illegal immigration in the last decade, crime rates have dropped sharply across the country. This may not be a coincidence. In every ethnic group, reports a recent study by Ruben Rumbaut and Walter Ewing for the American Immigration Law Foundation, young men born in the U.S. are far more likely to wind up in prison than those who come here later.

In Hazleton, as elsewhere, the main reason Latino foreigners come is to work and stay out of trouble. In fact, those qualities are the same ones that get them accused of stealing jobs. Even those immigrants who work off the books contribute to the economic health of local businesses by buying goods and services. Hazleton has seen an expansion of its tax base.

So it's too simple to blame all the city's newfound troubles on illegal immigrants. But the resistance to this influx can't be ascribed to simple prejudice. It's a response to unwanted changes that create genuine burdens on the town and its citizens.

No one really doubts that the arrival of thousands of illegals put a heavier load on emergency rooms and public schools. (The mayor testified that the budget for teaching English as a second language has risen from $500 to $1.15 million.) If the police chief perceives the presence of gangs that were not there before, he's probably not hallucinating.

The root of the problem is that the units of government that allowed the problem of illegal immigration are not the same ones that pay the price for it. If it's national policy to tolerate illicit entries and overstaying of visas, then it's a national obligation to address the painful side effects. If the bill is going to fall largely on local governments, you can hardly blame local governments for trying to protect themselves.

The critics of this ordinance are right to note that it's the federal government that should enforce immigration laws. But the people of Hazleton are justified in asking: When, exactly, will that happen?

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About The Author
Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Not as long as Bush is President

They have purposely let the situation get worse to try to force us into another amnesty/guestworker/regularization, whatever euphamism it is this week. The media, unions, both parties, churches, and mostly the corrupt corporations employing them are working to undermine our sovereignty as a nation and our rule of law. Until very recently there was practically NO enforcement.
And the numbers are much higher than 8-10 million. We are being purposely misled. Most of what you hear about illegal aliens is propaganda to get us to give up our country without a fight, this article included. In 1986 we were told it was less than 1 million, turned out to be 3.6 million getting amnesty, a few of them were involved in bombing the WTC in 1993. This time we're being told 10 million, it is more like 20-30 million. If the federal gov't refuses to do their duty, states and localities have no choice but to step into the breach. Enforcement under Clinton was insufficient but looked robust compared to this administration. Citizens of other countries do not have any right to "migrate" into our country without permission. If America announces to the world, "We can't stop you, so come on in", with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to we the people.


Dear Fool,
As you lie for the evil money cult townhall lags for each day, out in the real world this.

Duke Energy gets the prime contract to do the interstate high pressure natural gas lines to take the natural gas from Texas, Ok. , Colorado, Wyoming, and Montanta. The gas of course does not get used in these states it goes to Canada and the U.S. East coast to heat homes ect and make electricty.

Then comes the rub, Duke and the U.S. Govt. use the imininate domanin and take the ROW's. They then subcontract the work to companies such as Elk Horn Construction Co.. They are the ones who use the "illegal immigrant Mexican's etal" at wage slave rates to weld the high pressure pipe lines. The illegals we all know use American's ss#'s they steal, they pay the "lead coyote" in Mexico the passage money, said "lead coyote"'s are subcontractors of the DRUG LORDS OF MEXICO, who are allowed to do their work by the Mexican Govermwent, who has the Mexican Army gurading the drugs and the illegals "border crossing areas if influence" ie, each Cartel has a area of the Mexico/U.S.A. border as their own.
Once the illegal is in the U.S. they have cell phone numbers of the local coyote who in the case herein work as supervisors for Elk Horn Construction Company. They like most illegals from Mexico have little education as Mexico is a 100% no good country of rich elite who care not a twit for the poor they use, so they come knowing little trade's or language ect. Once they get to the job, some steal the welding trucks of Americans and sell them to the new hires who get jobs as Code Welders on said interstate gas pipe lines, once they get to work it being they have poor abiltiy many of the welds so not pass X-ray inspection, so the x-rays are faked.
The welds are now for example are being done in the Barnett Shale Gas field near Dallas/Ft.Worth, Denton, Weatherford, Cleburn Tx. in fact the DFW airport authority has leased the land around DFW International Airport for gas drilling. Many of the welds that are not up to code are in residental areas, near schools, hospitals, and said airport. These welders in some cases pay for the "books of work" from Union Halls for Code Welders in order to get the jobs in the first place. Now just now the welds do not leak, but time will tell its dirty tale later, who will we blame, who knows of this, how do the members of the evil money cult who now sell America and American people just for money sleep at nite?, They are evil and do not care, thats how.

Sarah Carter knows this and does her best from a small newspaper in Calif. but this blog, no, Washington Times knows, ask Jerry Seper, and or Tony Blankey they know, many U.S. Senators know we have told them, yet the crime goes on, the only ones the U.S. Goverment does any thing to is the Border Patrol officers who try to do their jobs, but when they do, along comes Johnny Sutton doing the biding of Atty. Gen. Alberto Gonzales, who bows to Karl Rove and President Bush and the no good Republican National Committee who will not even allow a second to a motion to bring illegal immigrantion up at any one of their meetings. If you dare Townhall ask
the Eagle Fourm, they know, if you dare ask Deanice McNamara of the Republican National Committee she knows, and you too, know you just have no courage.

EVIL MONEY CULT THAT ALL

TFK
You forgot your meds

m y 2 cents
As soon as they get here they put their kids between themselves and the law. Witness the recent raid in Massachusetts. Then you have pictures of wide-eyed kids wondering wtf is going on and eventually NOTHING gets done. Witness the woman in Chicago - she used her kid. Intelligent use of the 'if it bleeds it leads' principle.

Why not do it - it works.

And NOTHING gets done.

And a one word message goes out to everyone who plays by the rules in this matter and who may have been tied up for years trying to get through the maze

And that word is

sucker

p.s. - if this is such a terrible country, which by all accounts it is, even according to some of those who live here why, may I ask, is it that we have such a problem?

I'm OK
You are the one in the river of de nile,

Then there are D.R. Horton Homes, LLC and Centex Homes LLC, who have over built America with this 2/3's off labor pool and now they have lost millions and their stock goes down, in fact if you want meds, check out the Public Accounting Firms who sign off on the earnins reports for said LLC's, it being they do not tell the public investor the earnings are as high as they were was because of the "wage slaves" they use off the books by the same subcontactor method as Duke etal.

evil money cult involved in lies and fraud for earnings

never worked prior, will not work this time

America's Future


These next 2 years are vital to the future of this country. For 2007 we must make certain that McCain/Kennedy or whatever it's called this year does not pass the House. It will pass the Senate. The President will sign it, followed by the Totalization Treaty with Mexico, which qualifies former illegals with just 6 qtrs(18 mo) even if worked illegally, the benefits that we had to work 40 qtrs(10 yrs) to qualify for.

In 2008 we must make the candidates address border security and immigration enforcement.
20-30 million citizens of other countries are in our country illegally, 55% from Mexico, most of the rest from other Central and South American countries. Let's not ignore the leftward voting trends of these countries. It is notable that they picked May Day, an old communist day of celebration for their marches.

Most polls show at least half of the American citizens of Hispanic descent want the borders and laws enforced. Republicans will not win by alienating their current voters to get 40% of a new small block that will grow very large, very fast if amnesty is granted. That will grow the Democrats vote larger and faster as the influx increases exponentially as the result of another amnesty. It will spell the end of the Republican Party. The people who used to vote Republican will stop voting or form a new party. Conservatives will lose political influence and we will slide inexorably towards socialism (it has already started).

Most of what you hear about this issue is political propaganda that tries to convince you to give up your country without a fight, including on Fox News. The big money players are all on board the cheap labor express, they care not that American citizens do not want another amnesty. We know the last one resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard of our laws. The next one will be equally successful.

We need Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement, not reform. We need to restore respect for the law and the faith of the American people that their government is not selling them out. Amnesty for the illegal aliens is also amnesty for the corrupt companies who have been employing them. Money trumps everything, including love of country. Multi-nationals have no loyalty to country by definition, they see us as a market, not a nation. They see people as workers, documented or undocumented, no difference. If they can't send the work to where the labor is cheaper, then they want to bring the cheap labor here. Citizenship is meaningless.

If we love our Constitution and our representative Republic and we intend to keep it we must not surrender our sovereignty or abandon the rule of law. Profits must not supercede security. We should not create a new path to citizenship. We have a path to citizenship, more generous than any other country, illegal aliens have ignored it and bad choices do have consequences.

Illegal Immigration
What really gets to me ... Back in 2000 election, Karen Hughes and I exchanged letters outlining and discussing my ideas for immigration reform.

I stated I was concerned about Bush's stance on illegal immigration. If businesses need cheap labor, why not hire high school & college students to part-time jobs? There was a pool of about 30-million high school and college students in 1999. These young adults wanted opportunities yet found doors closed as businesses (including agricultural businesses including farmers) slammed their doors on our youth. No wonder our youth today are finding themselves abandoned.

Karen Hughes assured me George Bush would NOT allow illegal immigrants into the United States and he would have the INS hunt them down and strip them and deport them, one-by-one. This was written to me in a letter... dated March 14 2000.

Then George Bush went on to win the party's nomination - and the senior G-O-P leadership took over his campaign; illegal immigration became a topic on the back-burner while the G-O-P pushed through their tax cuts and then 9/11 ... and the war on terror began.

Still, to this day, businesses have options of hiring low-wage earners in the form of high school and college students in place of violating immigration laws and hiring cheap illegal immigrants. I hope businesses chose hiring high school and college students; yet I fear until Congress orders a change, cheap labor will be in the form of illegal immigrants.

Thank you for listening...

That's weird
The author writes "If Hazleton's illegal immigrants are prone to crime, they're the exception." But the very fact that they're ILLEGAL means that they're committing a crime doesn't it? Hmmmmm. I've read recently that 95% of all outstanding warrants in LA target illegal immigrants. And up to two thirds all of fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. Hmmmmm. Must be LA is another "exception" just like Hazelton. /www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

Maybe the illegal immigration crime rate is down because there are so many of them in prisons. I wonder why there are so many in prison if they really are law abiding citizens. Hmmmmm.

Even if "only" 20 of the 8500 felonies in Hazleton implicate illegals that's 20 more than the residents of Hazleton should have to concern themselves with.

Anybody who thinks that illegal immigration isn't a problem across the country isn't thinking clearly. Or isn't being honest. PP




Spinal atrophy
I propose a rule: No columnists from the East Coast or the upper Midwest can ever write about illegal immigration again. YOU KNUCKLEHEADS DON'T GET IT.

Stephen Chapman used to be one of my favorite columnists, but the quality of his work has declined dramatically over the last couple of years, and this dreadful column is just the latest example. I think Chapman's backbone has atrophied to the point where he can barely stand upright.

If you think illegal immigration isn't leading to increased crime, you probably think storks actually bring babies. In border states, as much as 1/4 to 1/3 of jail and prison populations are illegal immigrants.

The most violent gangs are now affiliates of gangs from south of the border, like MS13. brown/black violence is ratcheting up sharply, too.

From a nice office way up in Chicago, it may look like the jury is still out on illegal immigration. In border states, EVERYBODY knows how it's bankrupting states and municipalities, forcing hospital emergency rooms to close, tearing society apart by creating a permanent underclass with allegiance to a foreigh country, and reducing the quality of life for everybody--including American-born Hispanics and legal immigrants.

Chapman knows as much about illegal immigration as he does about the mestrual cycle...he might have read about it, but he's never experienced it.

By Any Means Necessary
I know absolutely nothing about this Chapman guy, but I'd bet my next paycheck that he supports comprehensive (AKA amnesty) immigration reform. Oh yeah... he throws a few bones of common sense and wisdom about the problems of illegals and the lack of proper federal enforcement but it is clear that he disdains efforts to control the problem. I say that if you have a problem and the responsible party for controlling the problem is unwilling to do their job then you have to find some other way of ridding yourself of the offenders and eliminating the menace. If the feds ever decide to do the job they are entrusted to perform, then perhaps the parties suffering from this invasion can hand the job back to the proper authorities. Until then... by any means necessary!











My 3 stepsons in Colorado unemployed
I informed my 3 stepsons, that if they wanted a car, etc.etc.etc. they would have to get a part time job, just as I had in my youth. They kept telling me, they could not get hired! The People that got the jobs for min. wage could barely speak english. What better way to get loyal employees than to hire illegals and when they make waves over the hours, threaten to deport them? Most of these jobs that my stepsons applied for were at fast food joints. I no longer eat at fast food joints, or chain restaurants,by the way. Truth! Do the same, they will get the "Hint"

Virginia Patriot, of note today.
First, my memories of Virginia are clouded, got the kind words of a E-8 lifer at littlecreek,had the week made by the devil himself, made all the cordiantes required in the week long escape and evasion, only to arrive at the fake POW camp there in the Great Dismal Swamp in a real bad mood, all eight of our team, got in a big rowe with some starch shirt first Lt. who told us to take off all our clothes but shorts and sit in the mud by a creek. We refused, long story that.

but now I must post this sorry note from Jerome Corsi from world net daily , today. Hope the link works.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54861

Gov. Rick Perry has been all over the map in his responses to this now more. Not good this.

mstone
you have many points factually wrong.

i live in san diego so i know a little about illegals.
i know that most of them have been here for years and own homes,have held a job for years and have kids in college. they are family oriented and church going. in most respects they are conservative.

your statistics on illegals in prison are simply false and here is why.
law enforcement is not allowed BY LAW to release information about country of origin or immigration status.
you can quote me estimates all day and it doesn't mean a thing.
the last statistic i found on a conservative web site said that 12 % of crime was by illegals, well if you figure 12 million illegals, that percentage is well below incarceration rates for native born citizens.

as far as health care here is the latest study. it states that illegals made up .07 of medicade costs. look these people don't want to get caught so they don't go for public aide. they have a deep fear of government coming from the countries they do anyway.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070314/news_1n14immig.html

i want our borders to be enforced but it is impossible to deport 12 million people so we need to deal with the problem realistically not with alot of false rhetoric.

taxfreekiller
I saw that on the thread on Novak's column. Thanks for the heads up.

The Great Dismal swamp is an interesting place, but don't judge the whole state by that experience. The mountains are beautiful in spring with the dogwoods and redbuds in bloom. The beaches are nice in summer.

Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement

It's never too late to do the right thing. What we need is comprehensive immigration enforcement. Any law officer coming across any illegal at anytime, detaining and deporting them, securing the border, guarding the border, workplace enforcement with stiff fines and jail time for employers. Start today and see how soon the flow is in the other direction. If we make it clear that you just CANNOT BE an illegal alien in the U.S. without harsh penalty, (particularly if we add a provision that if we have to deport you, you will never get U.S. citizenship)then many will go home on their own.
We need to make it clear to all that illegal residence in the U.S. will no longer be permitted. The federal government should ask state and local government to cooperate in ensuring only citizens are able to receive any benefits of any kind. Localities are already enacting such measures and should be encouraged to require proof of legal residency or citizenship to obtain drivers licenses, get a job, rent an apartment, get a bank account, obtain loans or credit cards. American citizens do this every day. We need reliable secure I.D.s. If we are ever going to solve this, we need to do whatever we can to make it impossible to BE an illegal alien.
The real answer is for Mexicans to clean up Mexico so they do not need to flee their own country. Citizens of other countries do not have any right to "migrate" into our country without permission. If America announces to the world, "We can't stop you, so come on in", with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must tell the cheap labor importers NO! in no uncertain terms. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We The People.

Chapman
"young men born in the U.S. are far more likely to wind up in prison than those who come here later"

Perhaps that is because they have had time to be indoctrinated in the self-serving, entitlement, socialist agenda of Government schools?

TFK - Are you whining about a Senior Chief dressing you down for insubordination or for giving you a legal order? Get over it !

(And Virginia is a great place to live, except for the tax burden)

pappy
socialist agenda of government schools?

i don't know where you live but here in america the schools are run by elected school board members.

i am on a school board and my 3 conservative colleagues on the board would be shocked to know they are part of this socialist agenda.


Numbers
Every twelve minutes an American citizen is killed by a drunk driving illegal allien

More than the war in Iraq an Afghanistan combined

And that includes sons and daughters of driving age of nationally sindicated columnist.

Now ponder that one before you decide to advocate for open borders in the future.

chairman mao
i would be interested in seeing the stats and documentation for that number.

Immigrant view!
Except religiouslib, most of the other comments have said nothing but to express an anti-immigrant opinion,full of rage end also not true statistics,meant to create a whole current against the new immigration reform.I totaly agree with virginia patriot when it says we need comprehensive immigration reform, true! We need that like in any other country.But when i hear some blsh. like some kind of old comunist threats, or deportation of the whole immigrant comunity and so on, Jesus Christ! somme of you are pathetic. Hey wake up people! You let that happened for a long time.Take action not to happen from now on again.But how about the ones they are already here? So , you have enjoyed the whole benefit of low cost labour now send them back.In your opinion Lincoln had to send back to Africa all coloured right? Cut the crap out , there is not such a thing like U can`t find a job in US. Chowda melon says about 3 stepsons unempoyed. That`s a craaaap!eigther they are complitely unskilled or most probabily lazy, thinking they are way too good for some immigrant jobs.Why they didn`t go in construction or some other field full of immigrants? Because they know nothing and besides that they willing to do nothing to lern something.Every immigrant finds a job second day arrives here, barely speaks english, and you born and raised here can`t?Give me a break. Not possible if you realy want to work.The thing is this is a free market, land of opportunity,the strongest will go further that is the american dream and the real engine of this society.Look upon education in this country, healthcare, social security and so on.The immigrants threat it`s nothing compare to bad politicians in power who seeks personal goals and fools a whole contry to elect them second time and drag them in war. Just tink o little bit, that`s all.

lydia why is your post racial
lets start with this fact. 46% of illegals are non-hispanic.
are you concerned about all illegals and, if so, why are all your stats concerned with hispanics and legal hispanics at that.



For the hottest blog conversation
on exactly this topic, posted yesterday, just click my name and go to my blog. The essay's entitled "'Comprehensive' Cynicism".

If you want to go right to the page where the comments are and wade in, click here:

http://viewfromtheisland.townhall.com/g/a76a94a3-f309-4ed1-97cd-a49424ff622a&comments=true#9c675b83-4c98-4158-a37d-f612b198090e

To quote the Gunny, my essay drove a stake through the heart of this issue.

The comments by other TH posters are at least as good, and provocative.

It's worth your while if this topic is of interest to you.


Rinos are ruining the Republican party
Republicans USED to stand for the rule of law.

Now, we have rinos who think more like dems than many dems think.

Time to get rid of the lot of them.

Anyone who votes for amnesty will LOSE on the next election.

The American people will be heard on this. NO AMNESTY. No matter what you call it.


Well said, Well, Now
.

Kudos to the Pols
Who are in a headlong rush to give us "comprehensive immigration reform".

Especially for the sake of our children do they labor. What parent could want more for their children than that they one day have no better opportunity but to be a wage slave for some multinational?

What initiative and selflessness for our "representatives" to undertake to sell our childrens' birthright.

Read about the fate of little Jordin Paulder at
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org and hazard a guess as to whether or not this was a fate his Mom or Dad could have ever envisioned for their precious child.

Is there a limit to greed and the lust for power?

And what better way to salute our honored dead who lie in eternal repose at Arlington, than to treat their sacrifice as some trifle by selling out the nation they gave their lives for.

Any sense of shame whatsoever among our politicians is an uncommon virtue indeed.

Understand that it is asinine in the extreme to impugn any of us for wanting our children to have a future in a nation for which so high a price has been paid.

Malice towards none, and that most assuredly, but is it too much to ask that our government give primacy to the well being of those for whom it was instituted to begin with?

Semper Fi


Criminals
Last time I was in Hazleton Pa (last year), I didn't see gangs of rampaging Hispanics looting and pillaging. Doesn't mean they weren't there.

The second someone steps foot on American soil without going through the proper procedures, he is breaking federal law.

When that person falsifies the I-9 form to get a job, he's again violating federal law. If he uses a false or stolen SocSec card/number, he's violating federal law AGAIN.

Maybe Hispanics in Hazelton aren't doing major felonies, but they are CRIMINALS. If I did the same crimes as the Hispanic illegals, I'd get busted and go to jail simply because I'm NOT Hispanic.

You libs can call me all the names you want, but what I said above is the truth. You libs can wallow in your smug sanctimony all you want, but illegal is illegal, and the criminals need to go to jail.

more lame apologia for ILLEGAL aliens
Where to begin?! There are many telling posts already here expressing righteous indignation against ILLEGAL aliens. EVERY time there is a similar column of apologia and red herring RINO sophistry defending ILLEGAL aliens, there is a torrent of opposition. In my 55 years, I have never seen such disingenuous and traitorous tripe as that served up by advocates of the North American Union, open borders, etc., ad nauseam.

Just out of curiosity, I did a search on Hazleton and got the CBS 60 Minutes report listing here... note that in the 72 hours they allowed comments, there were myriad angry posts supporting courageous little Hazleton:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/17/60minutes/main2195789.shtml
Amazingly, when you see the ACLU slither into the imbroglio, you can ABSOLUTELY guarantee that justice and rectitude is on the OTHER side! It is as ineluctably predictable as the sun going down!

There is a standard myth proffered by apologists for ILLEGALS that they have "conservative social values." OK, so they eschew gays-- big damm deal! The reality is that the typical border crasher has a 7th grade education and is poor. Their propensity to crimes, gangs, drugs, illegitimacy, school dropouts, etc. is EGREGIOUS; the foreign born are about 30% of our prison population (mostly latino), or over 3 times their estimated number among the resident population:
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

The all-in costs to American society are HORRENDOUS, so this "cheap" labor is certainly NOT really cheap, nor are they "simply doing jobs Americans won't do that we need done." We would be FAR better served if the new slave masters would simply paid a fair salary and passed along the cost. ILLEGALS are displacing CITIZENS.

This artful dodger drivel about ILLEGAL aliens being shunned just because they are latino is an ad hominem calumny crock. Prior waves of immigrants were LEGAL and came here intent upon becoming Americans; oceans served as a moat to help assure that. Honest economists note that today's America can ONLY BENEFIT from educated, skilled immigrants; we are NOT the same economy we were in 1907. Such ILLEGALS will EACH use $100,000 more than s/he pays in taxes in government services (per the Nat. Academy Of Sciences)-- once they really pay taxes!

Odds are VERY high that the cycle of poverty will simply snowball, partly due to their much higher birthrates; their willful tendency to cling to spanish, balkanizing ethnocentricity, and "bilingual" education of their myriad spawn are exacerbating this metastasizing crisis. If not stanched, this cancer will ineluctably destroy our American society, culture, and heritage. It will sink our ship of state.

How can we restore the rule of law and get control over ILLEGAL alien serial law-breakers and their co-conspirators? (miscreant employers who simply pocket the savings, forcefully subsidized by taxpayers; the PC, open borders, multicultural, "America is bad" left; the socialist-backed reconquista advocates; labor leaders selling failed broken promises; scandal-plagued Catholic Church leaders seeking replacement contributors in the pews)

Require ASAP a tamper-proof I.D. for any NON-citizen to function here-- to work, get licenses, go to school, rent an apartment, attend college, seek emergency services, pass go, etc. Make them repatriate (at least briefly) to apply for it, which then requires a thorough vetting.

What, no inviolate I.D.? Then NO job, NO school, NO apartment to rent-- NO way to sustain yourself amigo where you CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE an intrinsic right to be! Then WE would screen (as already required by law) who comes here to visit or work and decide how long they can be here... that simply restores the rule of law, and puts an end to tax and doc fraud, and Mexico dumping its ignorant indigent on us. Those who overstay Visa's (some with nefarious intentions) could
be controlled the same way, so it would be a win-win solution.

The powers that be will NOT build a real wall, NOR will they crack down on employers; another solution MUST be found! Politics is the art of the possible... the tamper-proof I.D. card for NON-citizens is feasible, affordable, effective, and they would deport themselves when they realized we meant business. La Raza, LULAC, and the ACLU would all oppose the tamper-proof I.D. card bitterly-- that would simply affirm the rectitude and efficacy of the idea!

WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO? WHAT CAN YOU DO?
Middle Americans JUST LIKE YOU derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in 2006... following are some links where you can get engaged to learn
more and join the SACRED fight to save America... first, one that will take you to all official contact info for your reps in Congress:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Bookmark it, and CONTACT THEM RELENTLESSLY! Some folks get discouraged when they get only formulaic replies from Congressmen, but know that they have staffers who track the humor and tenor of feedback.

When Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty was pending, it was Middle Americans like YOU who stopped it-- Peter King and other long-time Congressmen said they had NEVER SEEN such a visceral and consistent righteous indignation reaction from the hustings, bayous, boondocks, prairies, etc. in Middle America.

The money, organization [La Raza, LULAC, ACLU, labor leaders, Chamber and miscreant employer ilk, Catholic Church hierarchy], and power is on the other side of the ILLEGAL alien crisis, BUT the voters (68%) are on AMERICA'S side for now!-- until so many of the invaders flood in here that they out-vote us...
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

GET INVOLVED IN THE FIGHT TO SAVE AMERICA NOW! It was not raining when Noah began construction of his ark! The disingenuous sophistry and con games on the other side are myriad and omnipresent-- WE MUST fight back vigorously and unrelentingly with truth, justice, and the AMERICAN way!

http://www.teamamericapac.org/
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200701/NAT20070110a.h
tml
http://www.grassfire.org/
http://www.minutemanhq.com/pet_hr1986/
http://www.americanpatrol.com/
http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2003/feb03/psrfeb03.shtml
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
http://www.stopthenorthamericanunion.com/
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54132
http://www.vdare.com/malkin/060426_illegal.htm
http://www.vdare.com/bevens/060323_immigration.htm
http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=000a298a-sp00000000&sp-q=illegal+immigratio
n&sp-p=all
http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/060331_vfl.htm

Again, what is the solution besides enforcing existing laws? THIS IS-- FAR AND AWAY-- THE MOST ESSENTIAL STEP!!!-- REQUIRE ABSOLUTELY an INVIOLATE, TAMPER-PROOF I.D. CARD for ANY NON-citizen to work, receive public assistance, get licenses, rent apartments, attend college, request emergency services, apply for scholarships, pass go, etc.-- in short, TO FUNCTION PERIOD while visiting AMERICA. This technique would make it MUCH TOUGHER for miscreant employers to break the law by winking at fraudulent docs, AND would cut down on welfare fraud, tax dodging, etc. ILLEGALS should be made to repatriate to apply for the card, subject to a thorough vetting by US. It will also readily allow us to track crime records, taxes paid, and social services used. It is horsefeathers sophistry that this would "violate their rights"-- someone here ILLEGALLY has NO citizenship "rights"!!!

FURTHERMORE, American citizens have to prove who THEY are all the time!!! This solution destroys the straw man ruse that, "We cannot round up and deport 12 million ILLEGALS"-- they would go home to apply for the card at their expense and trouble, the very same way they got here!!! This will also simultaneously allow us to get a handle on those who overstay their visas for nefarious reasons such as plotting terrorism, because it will hinder their ability to sustain themselves in America to take flying lessons, etc.

May God bless America and save her from the Conspiracy Of Evil which seeks to eliminate her border with Mexico to create the North American Union so businesses can milk the cheap labor and the PC "elites" can control us with Big Brother entitlement government that the tsunami of ethnocentric undereducated, indigent third worlders will ineluctably insist on.

Good article
Fair & balanced.

perspectives: ILLEGAL alien crime rates
Like other disingenuous apologists for ILLEGAL aliens, Mr. Chapman is whistling by the graveyard in glossing over the correlation between ILLEGAL aliens and crime rates. Below are some well-sourced countervailing views. A lot of games are played by those who want Scamnesty and so-called "cheap" labor, but while liars do figure, figures don't lie.

Anyone who lives in an area with a concentration of ILLEGALS knows full well what has happened to law enforcement costs. They also watch their auto insurance rates soar due to uninsured ILLEGAL alien drivers driving drunk and racing from police, their hospitals closed due to insolvency from indigent ILLEGAL alien care (mainly pushing out illegitimate ninos), and their already beleaguered schools crippled by bilingualism and multiculturalism. Still sound like "cheap" labor, folks?!?!

Mexifornia is a harbinger of things to come-- traditional Americans have been moving out in droves due to the concomitant tax burdens, balkanization, ethno-blight, deciamted social service delivery systems, and invasive growth in government caused in large part by the ILLEGAL alien hemorrhage across the border.

http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/underestimated.html

NO END to criminal acts???
if we let people to commit a federal crime - entering USA illegally,
do not punish falsyfiyng the documents,
do not punish employers giving them jobs - why to punish other criminals??? That would be a discrimination ;)
STOP AMNESTY!!!

Do you know how to do math?
religouslib states:
"your statistics on illegals in prison are simply false and here is why.
law enforcement is not allowed BY LAW to release information about country of origin or immigration status.
you can quote me estimates all day and it doesn't mean a thing.
the last statistic i found on a conservative web site said that 12 % of crime was by illegals, well if you figure 12 million illegals, that percentage is well below incarceration rates for native born citizens."

using only your own figures and the fact the US just passed the 300 million population mark (UGGGHHHHHH!!!!) 12 million out of 300 million is 4%. 4% is incarcerated 12%! Looks like they are WAY (3X) above the average. No surprise since they commit crime after crime simply to get here and get, er - steal a job.

What has happened to the rule of law? Big corps are getting their way and cheap labor. Our population is skyrocketing and we can't afford to keep up with the infrastructure, schools, roads, PRISONS, power plants, hospitals, etc. ENOUGH!!!!!

Most politicians are for the status quo which is not for the interest of their citizens.

Wild west is back
Is anyone else tired of having to defend this country night and day with phone calls and faxes etc while our politicians hand the country over to anyone and everyone? I know I am. This weekend another innocent woman was shot and killed in Boston. You want to tell me that the growth of illegal invaders has nothing to do with this growing violence? Well, if these morons are going to give away the couuntry it is time to buy yourself a gun because it will be wild west time again. AND I suggest everyone either stop paying their taxes or cheat every which way you can to retain some of your money rather than let them use it to subsidize the destruction of this country. I for one have had with these soulless, anti american creeps and am ready to fight for my country. They want a World War three-They've got it!

This garbage MUST stop
Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

Even here in this small agricultural town of 9000 our crime rate has more than tripled in the last ten years.

Admittedly, most of the crimes have been drug possession, DWI, and domestic violence but, there was also the case of a ten-year-old girl raped and killed by an illegal alien. A young, single mother missing for two years last seen in the company of several mexicans.

Several fights have broken out around this vicinity which escalated into knives and guns being used, costing two young citizens their lives, the police still haven't found the perpetrators, nor do I think they will.

This garbage MUST stop, its as if the rule of law means nothing to the dregs of mexican society that stream northward, and the brainless DhimmicRATS and RINOs are welcoming them with open arms. The tension is so thick around here, at times, that its like living in a powder keg and waiting for it to explode.

Our town used to be known as "The Friendliest Town in America" but the more mexicans that come here for the agricultural and logging jobs the less friendly it is becoming. This is causing a rift between the citizens who would use the slave labor illegals and those that refuse to do so. I'm concerned that there will be an outbreak of violence one day that will be overwhelming.

As I say to all the people around here, be armed, be prepared, be vigilant, if worse comes to worse protect your self and family because the police can't be everywhere at once. Take a few courses of self-defense, and outdoorsman-ship and if trouble starts be ready to do what is necessary .

lydia
i make my point again.46% of illegals are not hispanic.

second, the statistics you quote are for native born and legal hispanics.
if you were quoting statistics about illegals that would be one thing but you lumped american citizens in there.

your problem seems to be with hispanics not illegals.

Pappy Michael.
Not, seems the next morning they called us 8 out of formation.
Said go down the hall to room so and so.
There sat this starch shirt Col., "you boys going to stick together on not sitting in the mud"?

we looked at the wild one Jessie the cowboy from Texas like the rest of us, he and we said
"no mud for us"!

YOUR THE KIND OF PEOPLE WE'RE LOOKING FOR, GREAT UNIT STICK TOGETHER, YOU GOT ORDERS YOUR OPERATION IGLOOWHITE NOW, SEE YOU IN LAOS....!

anti-jihadcrusader
that is a bogus number and you know it.
law enforcement is precluded BY LAW to not release figures on illegals, in fact, they dont even know the number. of course the web site the infamous and not credible, world net daily, even admits this.

"Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.

this is sensatonalism at its worst. i want the border enforced but false rhetoric will not solve the problem.

Preemptive strike on amnesty bill
Folks, deluge your Senators and Representatives ASAP to achieve a pre-emptive strike and take out the foolish new amnesty bill.

All the usual suspects are working behind the scenes to float a new Senate bill to grant amnesty to illegal aliens.

A few brave souls have reported from behind enemy lines to reveal it is worse than last year.

And the amnesty coalition is doing clever "p.r."
This article has a "sameness" ring of "talking points" that I have seen in similar articles in major newspapers. I smell a coordinated effort.

This Chapman guy sounds like just another "sellout."

The amnesty coalition is heavily financed and politically savvy. But we, the patriotic citizens, have a huge voting majority - FOR NOW.

Work the phones, stuff the mailboxes, put your elected officials feet to the fire.

PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE - HEAD OFF THE COMING PLOY FOR AMNESTY WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!!!

Religiouslib
So, in other words, your argument is:

The government can't give you figutres on how many are illegal, so, to convince me, show me government numbers on the number of illegals in jail.

In other words, nothing short of the impossible will convince you there is an inrodinate percentage of the jail population who are illegal aliens?

Again with the typo
Once again, sorry for all the typos. I cannot type correctly today.

cons don't get it u are in the minority
A CNN/Gallup poll released this week found that 59 percent of Americans support allowing illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and become citizens if they meet "certain requirements over a period of time." Only 24 percent support deporting all illegal residents (up from 16 percent in a June 2006 poll).

In a Quinnipiac University poll conducted in November 2006, 63 percent of respondents supported punishing businesses that employ illegal immigrants. The same poll found 69 percent support for a "guest worker program" that would allow illegal immigrants to earn citizenship without having to leave the country.


contact Congress-- CARPE DIEM !
Several of you are SPOT ON CORRECT that we need to BARRAGE Congress to avert Scamnesty, the North American Union, the Security and Prosperity Partnership, and other related euphemisms for the shell game sellout of America's culture, heritage, and socio-economic well-being-- indeed, the American Way itself! Here is the official contact info (a modified transfer of a portion of my long screed below):

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Middle Americans JUST LIKE YOU derailed Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty in 2006... following is the OFFICIAL link to contact Congress where you can get engaged to join the SACRED fight to save America:

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

BOOKMARK IT, and CONTACT THEM RELENTLESSLY!!!
Don't be bashful! Some folks get discouraged when they get only formulaic replies from Congresspersons, but know that they have staffers who track the humor and tenor of feedback. Too often they hear only from the special interests that want to sell out America for self-aggrandizing, ulterior motivations. Let freedom ring out, Middle America!

When Kennedy-McQuisling Scamnesty was pending, it was Middle Americans like YOU who stopped it! Peter King and other long-time Congressmen said they had NEVER SEEN such a visceral and consistent righteously indignate reaction from the hustings, bayous, boondocks, prairies, etc. in Middle America.

The money, organization and power [La Raza, LULAC, ACLU, labor leaders, Chamber and miscreant employer ilk, Catholic Church hierarchy, NAU, big entitlement govt. advocates], is on the other side of the ILLEGAL alien crisis, BUT the voters (68%) are on AMERICA'S side for now... until so many of the invaders flood in here that they out-vote us! Mexifornia is a harbinger of what could be in store for the whole country! Don't let the Conspiracy Of Evil destroy America! It would be a terrible thing to waste!
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

What will it take!!!
Why is the Congress/Senate balking at what is so obvious, the American people don't want open borders/no amnesty for those who broke the law/Immigration reform, and so on, it is so simple do the will of the people period. I live in Georgia and we have the strongest state laws on Immigration and also have given no Amnesty for those Immigrates who are here illegally,they are sent home period.But for you people who want to know,(R) Sen Iskson has developed a new Amnesty bill that is better than the Kennedy/Mcain bill but still allows for Amnesty for Illegals, U.S House of Representatives has their Guterrez/flake Amnesty bill comes out today and still allows for Amnesty for Illegals.We as Americans have to stop these bills from going thru so contact your congressmen/Senator and have your voice Heard.Also look at Web site Immigrationinfo@numbersusa.com for more info on these issues.

Religious Lib is in the minority
The poll I found stated the following:
"89% of Americans think illegal immigration into the U.S. is a problem (Time Magazine, Jan. 2006)
82% think that not enough is being done along the borders to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into the country. (Time Magazine, Mar. 2006)
68% feel that the number of immigrants who cross the border, whether legal or illegal is “too high”. (Polling Company, Sept. 2006)
62% oppose making it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens of America. (Quinnipiac Univ., Feb. 2006)

Like it or not, illegal entry into this country is a crime. Forging or using stolen documents is a crime. Illegal immigrants should not be given a free pass by making claims of "wanting a better life for themselves and their family", drug dealers or bank robbers can make that claim and it does not excuse ignoring the law. I liken illegal immigrants to 'line-jumpers' at amusement parks. When line-jumpers are caught, they are ejected from the park. Illegal immigrants deserve nothing less. Hazelton has enacted laws to dry up that which attracts illegal immigrants to their town. They should be applauded for this. The federal government has completely abandoned enforcing the law and expects the states and towns suffering in the wake of this crime wave to foot the bill for these 'line-jumpers'. They are not afraid to apply for welfare - they are continually reminded that they have nothing to fear from the welfare offices, they will not report them to ICE. It says so on the forms they fill out in order to receive welfare - in English and in Spanish. If 46% of illegals are not hispanic, then why are all the forms in Spanish and English, no other language? It makes me wonder if Religious Lib is either an illegal immigrant, anchor baby of an illegal, or business owner profiting off illegal cheap labor.

reply to religiouslib
Figures do not lie per se, but liars certainly figure. The Communist News Network and other MM pollsters ask loaded questions on polls because they seek certain results... consider instead the well-sourced results shown here where Americans were asked to respond based on being told actual numbers of the foreign born of all stripes believed to be residing in America today:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back906.html

Fully 68% favor halting ALL immigration (legal and ILLEGAL) until we can demonstrate successful and desirable assimilation.

You were trying to make a distinction (parsing) about hispanics earlier by saying that crime data do not always clarify which hispanics populating prisons and committing crimes are legal and which instead are ILLEGAL. Beyond some point, that becomes a distinction of no material difference as they say in the law. If hornets chase me down and sting me, I do not need to know them by name-- I have been plagued by them nonetheless. The aggregate data are EGREGIOUS regardless... here are some more well-sourced data:
http://www.amren.com/Reports/Hispanics/HispanicsReport.htm

Just the first few sentences reveal a terrible propensity to crimes, drugs, gangs, illegitimacy... beyond some point, denial is not just a river in Africa. There are no persons so blind as they who will not see.

kikimay
interesting that your quinnipac poll supposedly come from the same poll yet are opposite.

i googled "percentage of americans supporting earned citzenship"

try it see what you get.

truthserum
don't be ridiculous.

the idea of mixing legal american citizens with illegals is simply disingenous.

as far as my numbers go, believe what you want but your center for immigration studies does not even attempt to be impartial.


kikimay
one last point i live in san diego and am an elected school board member and have been dealing with this issue for years.

here in california government documents are printed in 6 languages.

and if you do any research you will find my statistics are true. for example 14% of illegals are asian.
12% of illegals are eastern european and so forth and so on.

look i don't care about illegals, i care about the truth so we can have a rational discussion.

andrews
i am constantly amazed at how conservatives never wnat to bother with facts, they just use emotions to make decisions.

look if we can't get real numbers of something than it cannot be a fact.

i wasn't saying anything other than that.

guesstimates are not facts.

This is NOT immigration

Migration is a movement of people from one place to another. Immigration is citizens of one country applying for legal entry to another country with the intent to become a citizen of that country. The debate is not about immigration at all. It's about moving the cheap labor here. Old fashioned notions like citizenship and borders get in the way of that. Bush is telling us illegal aliens do not want to be Americans, they just want to work here. The real answer is for Mexicans to clean up Mexico so they do not need to flee their own country. We need to tell the cheap labor importers NO! in no uncertain terms. Citizens of other countries do not have any right to "migrate" into our country without permission. If America announces to the world, "We can't stop you, so come on in", with another amnesty, the deluge will be overwhelming. If 3,000 a day didn't get your attention, then wait until it's 10,000 a day. We cannot sustain this influx and survive as a nation. We must speak up and speak to each other about this and not let false claims of racism or bigotry be used to intimidate us into silent assent. America is not Congress' to give away. America belongs to We The People.

Truth, you can not stand the truth.
try Lou Dobbs show tonite, 8:00 pm EST
from the prison Border Patrol officer Ramos is still in lock down in, 5 min per week phone calls

all on the orders of the Mexican Goverment.

then try the book Apache by Will Levinton Comfort
the life of my great, great, great, great grandfather Mangus Colorados, seems the unlimited illegal immigration for this land its gold is not new, this second invasion makes you

religiouslib the NEW APACHE, and its not a nice thing to be so chosen.
the $2.00 per set of men, women and childern ears was the way the Mexican Goverment did it prior,

how well attached are your ears, truthfully

Religious Lib
The point being, if the government cannot or will not furnish numbers, then we are forced to use educated estimates (not guesstimates, as you so disparagingly call them).

Do you believe scientists when they tell you how much matter there is in the universe? Guess what, they didn't put the universe on a scale. it is an educated estimation. The percentage of illegals in prison is the same. So, don't blow off the numbers as "guesstimates" just because you disagree with them.

Also, I would like to point out that, regardless of whether they are in jail or not, EVERY illegal alien breaks the law. That is why they are called ILLEGAL aliens.


no andrews
there is a difference between conceptual and factual but as always conservatives don't want to be bothered with facts just want to go by their emotions.

Question for anti-enforcement minority
What is there about the word "border" that you anti-enforcement people don't understand?

Our borders were hard-won against tyrants. All you "liberals" need to learn that America's borders are not something to trivialize.

The social problems brought by illegals is merely the symptom of the real problem.

The problem and the biggest danger posed by the illegal immigration disaster is this:
our elected officials openly and brazenly practice selective observation of the public laws.

To continue this practice will further erode trust in the system. What eventually follows is third-world style rule by brute force.

"Conservatives" simply wish to conserve, or better stated, preserve, honesty in government.

Our laws extend to our borders.

This is all very simple.

Let's just enforce the laws already on the books.

liberals are not against enforcemen
and i agree whole heartedly we need to simply enforce the laws on the books.

but
lets us deal with the 12 million who are already here with facts and not confuse rhetoric with reality.

in an earlier post lydia gave me a long list of the hispanic crime statistics.

well there is a difference between hispanics who are native americans and those who are illegal but some conservatives seem to have a problem understandng the difference.

hispanics also make up 54% of illegals.
many illegals are asian and eastern european.

50% of illegals entered the U.S. legally.
i live right on the border here in san diego and am aware of the problems and the facts.


55% are Mexican
Most of the rest are hispanic, from other countries south of the Rio Grande. 15% from other countries, non-hispanic.
Yes, hispanics can certainly be as American as you or I, I know some. However, Mexicans are not Americans, Guatamalans are not Americans, Hondurans are not Americans, El Salvadorans are not Americans. They can be, IF they apply for legal entry and follow our EXISTING path to citizenship. When someone lets himself into your house without your permission, do you consider him a guest? I don't. Invasion is not the right term, but what is happening is NOT immigration. People do not have an unlimited right to "migrate" from their country to ours. I know many immigrants from all over the world and it is especially for them that I oppose amnesty for illegal aliens. Some have waited years in refugee camps in southeast asia for their chance to become Americans. They respect this country, our laws, language and culture. All of them took the time, effort and expense to do it the right way. We should honor all those who have and not insult their sacrifices with another amnesty. The amnesty of 1986 has resulted in 10 times the number of illegal aliens and a general disregard for our laws. Another amnesty would be equally successful.

Religious Lib
Hate to tell you, but even the "hard numbers" are conceptual. The federal prisons report on their populations and they are compiled, but the numbers are gatherd at different times or even on slightly different days, so the numbers do not accurately represent the real population at any one time. They are a very close estimate, but not the actual number.

Sorry, the difference between "conceptual" and "factual" is not that big.

And who is getting emotional. Someone provided an estimate and a source, and you shot it down because the feds won't provide actual numbers of a prison census of illegal aliens.

I think you are just unwilling to be confronted by numbers that don't support your position. The same way you refuse over and over to explain why Armitage was not indicted if there were a crime (among other positions you ahve taken.)

You adopt a position and dogmatically support it, regardless of evidence, then accuse the rest of us of being irrational and emotional.

Here is the point: The feds will not provide real numbers on the percentage of illegal aliens in satte or federal prisons, so several people have estimated the numbers using various criteria. As we have no "hard" numbers, we must use thos estimates. you can argue the methodologies, but just dismissing them because they aren't physical head counts is absurd and shows that you are more interested in your beliefs than the fact. Yet you call me emotional.

Don't reply, I am not bothering with you any longer.

Get Real, Religiouslib
religiouslib, certainly you are joking when you top your post with a statement as ludicrous as liberals are not against enforcement -- right?!? Have you seen old drunken Teddy Kennedy crying over the recent token raid up in Massachussetts? To hear him tell the story this was an abuse of justice on the order of a SS raid into a Jewish neighborhood in Nazi Germany. This instance was of such an obvious and egregious nature that even ICE and the Bush justice department couldn't ignore it, and yet all the handwringing outrage from the libs has practically drowned out (a little Kennedy pun there) the blatant and odious crimes of the company and it's illegal employees.

Face it the libs want these illegals because they are future voters and they aren't going to let something as superficial as a law get in the way of building a future power base. The only thing that amazes me is that there are quasi-conservatives that are willing to hand them this power in exchange for enhanced profits and campaign donations.

If you agree that we "...simply need to enforce the laws on the books" then you are against amnesty. You simply want us to faithfully, passionately, and overwhelmingly prosecute the violators of our borders and the employers that finance their illicit activity -- right?!? Somehow I doubt that one as well.

Time-wasting
... presenting religiouslib with information he/she doesn't intend to accept.

For others here, though, it might be interesting to debunk religiouslib's bizarre statement that only 46% of illegal immigrants are hispanic.

According to the Pew Hispanic Center (Pew being well-known to produce poll results that reassure the left, and having no public assocation with the right), 57% of the 10.3 illegal immigrants estimated to be in the US in March 2005 were from Mexico. Another 24% were from other Latin American countries. The total from hispanic-language-speaking countries in the Western hemisphere: 81%.

Link here if you care to read more:

http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf

And yes, I live in southern California (Riverside County, where I moved in late 2003 from San Diego).

reply to religiouslib
Really, you can check the supercilious, presumptuous, and pedantic "conservatives deal with emotion rather than facts" at the door of your PC liberal feel good, lala land meeting. Frankly, it is conservatives who are more likely to deal with realities, whether passionately or not.

You want to selectively cite MM polls while insouciantly discounting other polling, e.g. I graduated from one of those elite universities and teach business and economics at the college level now-- I have heard all of the artful PC, ulterior-motivated, artful sophistry many times before.

You have attempted to parse statistics about hispanics versus other foreign born ILLEGAL residents, but dancing around some issues will not change what people know fundamentally to be true--> poor, undereducated latino immigrants are disproportionately prone to a PLETHORA of socio-economic maladies and burdens to American society. It is econ 101 that an advanced service economy CANNOT BENEFIT from the immigration of the undereducated indigent-- even IF they had come here legally. When you add to this a foreign language and ethnocentricity, you compound the already mentioned challenges of ignorance and poverty.

The fact that many who stayed here after visas expired are also part of the ILLEGAL population simply affirms that our federal govt. has been willfully nonfeasant about enforcement of our laws, BUT that does not cut any slack for the border crashing, latino, serial lawbreaking perpetrators!

And the straw man, red herring, fallacious argument, e.g., that "we cannot physically deport 12-20 million ILLEGALS" CERTAINLY does not mean that we need to or SHOULD even consider putting ILLEGAL aliens on a path to citizenship! There are several ways we can begin to enforce our laws which would prompt them to repatriate at THEIR expense and trouble THE VERY SAME WAY THEY GOT HERE, and get the he11 in line to see HOW or WHETHER or IF we should consider letting them return to our sovereign nation, AND ON WHAT TERMS as WE DECIDE!

ILLEGAL is STILL ILLEGAL-- whether they violated visas or ran across the border... their motives for having broken our laws are IRRELEVANT relative to their potential for future citizenship, or ANY OTHER privileges such as working here.

How to rid the country of illegals
To those who have said, we can't deport 12 million people - we don't have to. All that needs to happen is more frequent ICE raids on businesses that use illegals (most of them knowingly). When that happens, illegals self deport themselves. Enough raids and tough fines against employers, which would simply be enforcing the law, would dry up jobs for illegals. They would go home because the only reason they come here is to work. No work, no illegals.

To those who would say, but who will pick our strawberries and lettuce? We are already subsidizing agriculture with price supports, and emergency aid to the tune of billions a year, even to the richest of the rich. We should not have to subsidize them with cheap labor as well.
Our taxes go up exponentially for illegals "emergency" health care and educating their children, paying more for car insurance because they go bare, etc etc etc. So what if lettuce costs 10 cents more, we'll save a ton on taxes, insurance, etc.

Illegal immigration must end. But it won't.

On the going back thing.
Dear religious liberal,

Every weekend on Friday in Los Angles, Ok. city, Dallas Tx, Houston Tx, Nashvill Tenn. , Denver Col., Salt Lake City Ut. there are bus stations, bus stations filled with bus's of Mexican bus companies, our own Greyhound and Contintal, being loaded with south Americans going home for visits, vaction, to see mom, to pick up a brother, or in some cases to mule some more pot into America. Should you care to, go out to any Interstate Hwy. to a large truck stop or road cafe and watch the bus traffic with you own little pink commie eyes.

They self load, they buy the ticket, some do it several times a year, almost all do it once a year such as Christmas ect.

How hard is it to do it because they are illegal and we tell them so.?

Religious criminals
religiouslib writes: Monday, March, 26, 2007 10:24 PM
mstone
you have many points factually wrong.

i live in san diego so i know a little about illegals.
i know that most of them have been here for years and own homes,have held a job for years and have kids in college. they are family oriented and church going. in most respects they are conservative.
(snip)
i want our borders to be enforced but it is impossible to deport 12 million people so we need to deal with the problem realistically not with alot of false rhetoric.

--------------------------------

I live SOUTH of you in Chula Vista and the previous comments are right on. Workmans comp insurance simply doesn't apply to construction companies with illegal aliens in the San Diego area anymore. The SEA of people daily filling the SSA offices in San Diego and Chula Vista are readily identified as illegal immigrants. The SSA official there was plainly explaining to an illegal alien how to get free money when I took my father in to register for Social Security after working 60 years of his life.

Your religion isn't a mandate to steal from taxpayers and allow identity thieves to prosper. I'd take every single illegal alien out like the criminals they are and deport them to the farthest most point from America in their home countries. This is especially true in the drug infested trash of a country south of us. Every single one of them is a criminal and idiots like you should finance their crimes with your livelihoods, not mine. Let me be in charge of ICE and all 20 million illegals from Swedish to Mexican would be gone.

Tax Base
"Hazleton has seen an expansion of its tax base."

Wrong!

City income has remained flat even though the population has increased by 50,000!

fivo
if you live in chula vista then you know what i say is true.
you have seen the articles in the newspapers of kids in college or business owners who are illegal but have been here for years and are part of the community.

you are surrounded by mexican-americans in chula vista, please explain to me how you can tell who is legal and who is not.

i guess you agree with some on the right who say we should shoot to kill on the border. if not, why not?

ReligiousLib
Wow. Are you retired, or on assistance or something? Maybe you're independently wealthy. I hope so, because you'd sure have a heck of a time making a living with your head stuck in the sand like that.

I'm just north of you, in Orange County. I've been here all my life, so I've been able to watch the issue progress.

First, I don't know where you got your "54% Hispanics" figures, but I'd say you're misquoting it. It's true that there are illegals from many different places, including China, Eastern Europe, and Ireland, but they're a drop in the bucket. They've got to get a visa to get in, and they've got to travel here by airplane or ship. There's no way in heck that they're close to half of the problem.

It may be that 54% of all illegals are MEXICANS, but the vast majority of illegal aliens are Hispanic.

And 12 million is the absolute lowest estimate of the true number of illegal immigrants in this country. Most estimates are in the 20- to 30-million range. If you left your house a little more, you'd see that 12 million is much, much too low.

I never speculated on the percentage of all crime committed by illegals, but since law-enforcement officials themselves state that a very high proportion of the jail and prison populations are illegal, it has to be substantial.

My mother has a hospital with a world-class cardiology staff ten minutes from her home, but when she had her heart attack the ambulance had to drive more than 20 minutes to a different hospital, where the chief cardiologist might well have killed her if we hadn't pulled her out of there as soon as the crisis was over. Why couldn't she go to the closest hospital? The ER was full...largely with illegals seeking non-urgent care.

And if you've read the papers or watched the news, you know for a fact that emergency rooms are closing because they're having to provide care that never gets paid for.

As for deporting 12 million illegals, nobody is proposing that. Can you liberals EVER make an argument without distorting the conservative position? We need to secure the border to slow down the flood. And we need to go after the employers--if the jobs for illegals dry up, then many of the illegals will go home on their own.

And I don't know where you get your ideas, but I for one can quite easily make the distinction between Hispanics who are citizens or legal residents and those who are here illegally. I have no problem with Americans of Hispanic decent.

But illegals are another story. They're destroying my home state, and I'm sick of it.

Write Your Representative

Don't wait any longer, send am email to your Congress and tell them to stop validating criminal behavior !

fivo
You're hired, just as soon as I get to run Homeland Security. We could cut illegal crossings to 0 with a simple double fence very well marked with signs in English and Spanish that there is a minefield in between. And religiouslib, that would make shooting anyone unnecessary.

mstone
the statistics i gave you are accurate.
in other parts of the country asian and eastern eupopean and even african are very prevalent.

i don't have the report bookmarked but it was a very extensive study.
of course most on this board won't believe me but if you google it i am sure it will be there.

i am an elected school board member and i am really interested in how you can tell illegals from native born mexicans because it is an issue in my school district and we try hard to determine their status irregardless of paper work.

do not be fooled, the illegals you see at home depots are not representative of most illegals.
most illegals have been here for years and are very assimilated. at least that is true in san diego.

i believe that is why conservatives like bush, hewitt, and medved support earned citizenship.
the mexican parents i deal with on a daily basis are church going family oriented conservatives by nature. the extreme statements found on this board are driving many of them (native born american mexican) into the arms of dems.

i don't care it is just an observation.
here is why.
almost every family i deal with has at least one family member who is illegal. it may be a brother an uncle or a grandmother so when you say all these horrible things about illegals you are insulting the entire family who is native born.

oh well, reasonable approaches to this problem don't be a strong suit for conservatives on this issue.



Liberal Confusion
Wait a second religiouslib, earlier you stated, "and i agree whole heartedly we need to simply enforce the laws on the books". But now you seem to embrace the concepts of "earned citizenship" (AKA amnesty) and "reasonable approaches". Which is it? If you wholeheartedly want to simply enforce the laws on the books then enforcement is the only option and appeasement is not possible.

If you are a liberal as your handle implies and you state that liberals aren't against enforcement then why wouldn't you want to deport the successful perpetrators that have evaded enforcement? Either illegals are a good thing and we should try and encourage many more or they are a bad thing and we should want to prevent more and rid ourselves of the successful border crashers -- right?!? If you find out that you have termites in your house do you spray around the perimter of your house to prevent a further infestation and then do nothing about the termites already in your house? Of course that makes no sense. Again, illegals are either a good thing or a bad thing. If they are good then encourage more of them and if they are bad get rid of them and keep them and others from coming back!

Ignoring the people
The president could take care of this but he won't, because he wants it. That's why he ignores the majority of the people in this country who want immigration fixed. The border sealed. The anchor baby law changed. Something done about the millions of illegals. The laws allowing six strikes before anything is done. On and on and on.

He'll leave a lousy legacy.

ILLEGALS, CRIME,TREASON,CULTURAL DECLINE
WHY SHOULD WE BE SUPRISED BY ALL THIS WHEN WE SEE A TOTAL DISREGARD FOR THE LAWS AND AUTHORITY OF OUR LOVING, ETERNAL CREATOR?

lydia
dance around it all you want.
you cannot lump hispanic statistics with illegals.
if i said we had an illegal problem and then listed the criminal statistics for caucasions wouldn't that seem racist to you.

there are 30 million legal and native born hispanics in this country.
what do their crime statistics have anything to do with illegals.

sammy
no its conservatives who are confused and that is why your point of view is in the minority and you scream that it is all a treasonous plot.

there are two separte and distinct problems.

one is enforcement at the border.
the other is the illegals already here.

liberals and conservatives agree that we need strict enforcement at the border but we have to figure out a reasonble way to deal with the illegals already here cause they are not going away.


In a Quinnipiac University poll conducted in November 2006, 63 percent of respondents supported punishing businesses that employ illegal immigrants. The same poll found 69 percent support for a "guest worker program" that would allow illegal immigrants to earn citizenship without having to leave the country.

81 percent
That's how many illegal aliens are hispanic. 57 percent are Mexican. I refer you again to the link in my post above, to the Pew study.

81 percent.
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