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Monday, March 19, 2007
Steve Chapman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Signs of Life in the Second Amendment
by Steve Chapman
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For nearly 70 years, the Second Amendment has been the Jimmy Hoffa of constitutional provisions -- missing, its whereabouts unknown, and presumed dead. The right to keep and bear arms, though treasured by many Americans, was a complete stranger to the Supreme Court. But recently, a federal appeals court did something no federal court had ever done before: It struck down a gun control law as a violation of the Second Amendment.

The District of Columbia statute in question is one of the most stringent in the country. It bans the ownership of handguns except those registered before 1976, and it requires rifles or shotguns to be not only registered but kept unloaded and equipped with a trigger lock. Such tight restrictions, the appeals court said, can't be reconciled with the Bill of Rights.

The decision does not prove that the Second Amendment is alive and well. But it does mean that, finally, we are likely to get an answer from the Supreme Court on a question that has generated endless debate: Is the Second Amendment a meaningless anachronism, or a live guarantee? The court will be confronting the issue at a time when legal scholarship is increasingly inclined to say there is indeed a right to keep and bear arms.

The full text of the provision is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." In its last significant Second Amendment case, in 1939, the court didn't exactly say there was no individual right. Instead, it said the firearm at issue, a sawed-off shotgun, would not be of use to someone serving in a militia. The question of an individual right was left unresolved.

The amendment is a puzzle because of those two separate clauses, one about militias and one about gun rights. Gun control supporters generally read the first to nullify the second, while gun control opponents do just the opposite. And trying to determine what the framers meant is hard because they barely discussed the right and what it might entail.

Second Amendment skeptics think any right is a collective one related to militias that no longer exist. But just because the colonial Minutemen have vanished doesn't mean they took the rest of the Second Amendment with them. It's hard to know exactly what the Second Amendment means by a right to keep and bear arms, but it must mean something.

Even some liberal constitutional experts now agree that gun ownership enjoys constitutional protection. The most notable is Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe, who once subscribed to the collective rights theory. The amendment, he writes, recognizes "a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in defense of themselves and their homes." The appeals court agreed, striking down D.C.'s prohibition of handguns in the home, as well as regulations on other guns.

It would be a stunning turnabout if the Supreme Court adopts that view. It would remove some of the most extreme laws from the books -- such as the virtually total ban on handguns in Chicago and some suburban communities. Gun rights advocates would feel sweet vindication.

But there is consolation for the other side as well. The appeals court made clear that a host of other limits on firearms possession are constitutionally permissible. States, it said, could forbid the carrying of concealed handguns, require registration of firearms and mandate training for gun owners.

So if this decision is upheld, it will not change our treatment of guns very much. Complete bans would be off-limits, but they are already rarer than white buffaloes. Most other gun control laws would remain on the books, and anti-gun groups would be free to press for additional ones.

The only obstacle would be the one that has stymied them in the past: insufficient public support. It wasn't the constitutional right to keep and bear arms that induced Congress to let the federal ban on "assault weapons" expire, or that persuaded 40 states to allow the carrying of concealed handguns. Those choices were the product of sentiment among citizens and legislators who see most restrictions on firearms as futile at best and dangerous at worst.

The bad news for gun control advocates is that the Supreme Court may adopt an expansive view of the Second Amendment. The worse news is that's the least of their troubles.

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Steve Chapman is a columnist and editorial writer for the Chicago Tribune.
 
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Just form a milita
Gun owners can simply form a state or local militia, as allowed by the second ammendment, and issue membership cards to anyone who wants to join. Anyone belonging to the militia then has the unquestionable right to possess guns. The milita can specify the types of guns covered.

A question for gun-control advocates: How do you propose to enforce gun-control laws? Set up an agency like the DEA? Yeah, just what we need -- the establishment of another black market and all the criminals that go with it.

To Steve Chapman
You said "And trying to determine what the framers meant is hard because they barely discussed the right and what it might entail."

The intent is extremely simple to determine. All you have to do is read the d*mn sentence. Only a liberal lawyer can tie the thing up into some big brewhaha about the militia. The first clause explains why a militia is needed, the rest of the sentence says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged. That means two things, States need a well regulated militia and separately citizens shall have the right to own arms and carry them. It does not specify which arms either. At the time it was written citizens owned all of the same arms that the government owned. The meaning of "abridged" is "lessened" in this context. What that means is that the citizens have the right to own and carry ALL of the same arms that the government has.

If anyone doesn't like this, then they should change the consitution.

Vic & Wisolman
Vic;

What a coincidence. There's an article on The New Republic Online today on exactly that subject. The header reads, "Instead of interpreting the Second Amendment, let's just abolish it". I suspect the author is using "let (u)s" in the collective/exclusive sense, appealing to his fellow "enlightened progressives" to close ranks against the rest of us barbarians (aka "the great unwashed").

The collectivist elitist-statist crowd will not give in on this one without a fight. And even if they lose, they'll keep trying to change the rules. (It's always worked in the past.)

As the late Jeff Cooper once said, "When your enemy openly declares himself, you can enter into battle with a light heart".

Wisolman;

We already have one of those, it's called BATF. And it was created by Richard Nixon in 1971, mainly to get back at sportsmen whom he felt hadn't supported him as much as he thought he deserved- mainly for being a Republican.

He probably should have had someone look up Hubert Humphrey's voting record when he was the senior senator from Minnesota. He may have been the last known Democrat who respected the right to keep and bear arms. Unlike Nixon, who repeatedly called for it to be proscribed, right up to his death.

So much for the idea that a Republican is automatically a "strict Constitutional constructionist".

cheers

eon

To Eon
I have always said that Richard Nixon was one of the biggest liberals we have ever had for a President. If you step back and actually look at some of the stuff done on his watch, it is toally appalling. I am glad the worthless scum was about to be impeached.

Definition of "Militia"
Okay, folks, here it is, the definition of "Militia", per Title 10 USC, sec 311:

"Section 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

In other words, every law-abiding citizen between 17 and 45 is a member of the Militia.

I mean, c'mon, it really doesn't get any simpler or clearer than this.


Let's turn the "collective right"...
... argument around for a sec.

If the "collective right" argument is correct, and the only people given a Constitutional right to "keep and bear arms" is reserved to state militias, then neither police nor the federal military are endowed with that right, as the 2nd amendment doesn't specifically name them as having the right.

Starting to REALLY sound like the Twilight Zone, isn't it?

BrianR
I've seen this definition myself. The problem I have with using it is people have then wanted to tie the Rights as out lined in the Second Ammendment to only those persons 17-45 years of age. I have heard people use this militia definition in their arguements to "cut down on the number of guns in society". That is normally followed by the obligatory "for the sake of our children" for good measure.

Leroy
Well, then of course they're hopelessly pathetic. But you can always say that standard practice is to let any person retiring from service to keep their service weapon, like most US police departments and the Swiss (who, incidentally, mandate that every Swiss -- including women -- is a member of the military militia and is required to keep a fully-automatic weapon and a designated amount of ammunition at the ready in their homes).

It doesn't really matter. All they're doing is catfishing at that point. They know they've lost the argument on its merits.

BrianR
You're right the anti-fire arm crowd seldom have any real basis for their arguement. It amazes me that this single Ammendment is the only place in the constitution where they find "The People" to read "The Government".

I guess the thing that irritates me the most is that standard "If it saves just one child it will be worth it". That is supposed to be the unquestionable statement that ends all further discussion on anything. I have replied then we should execute every child rapist, molester and kidnapper we catch the day following arrest because if it saves just one child..... That normally takes the conversation to a whole other orbit.

Leroy: Heh heh heh
Yeah, they're intellectually bereft.


Man! I've always hated that "for the children" bulls**t!!! It's a cynical ploy, manipulative in the extreme, and every time Clinton (who originated it) used it, I felt like shooting my TV with my legally-owned assault rifle.

Ask those moral and legal morons this: If you're so in love with the idea of saving lives at any cost, what do you think about the idea of lowering the freeway speed limit to 10mph? Not only will we save lives, but think of the beneficial effect for the environment in fuel savings?

Then, STAND BACK! The gyrations and potential head explosions are dangerous to all those in proximity not wearing approved safety gear.

BrianR
You just used another of my personal finger nails on a chalk board favorites given to us by our progressive elite.

Assault rifle. Man that's like an assault base ball bat, or assault claw hammer. My cousins wife about whipped him silly with her boot one night at a dance hall in our younger years, I guess they would have classified that as an assault boot.

You have a whole class of people who know zip about fire arms and ammunition and they decide, well that thing just looks different. These folks get all in a lather over an AR-15 because of the way it looks and there is no way to explain to them that I can take out my old '06 and punch bigger hole from a lot further off and have just a whole bunch more power left when it gets there.

Leroy: Yep!
I guess back in 1873, the trusty ole Winchester lever-action would have been the "assault-rifle" of its day.

Subject, of course, to regulation, restricted ownership, magazine restrictions, etc.

Oh, wait, that didn't happen!

Come to think of it, the transition from cap-and-ball to cartridge firearms must have been a shocker to any libs around at the time. Just think of the potential for mass murder if you didn't have to go through the whole blackpowder loading routine between shots!!!

That must have absolutely thrown those Lefties into a tizzy!

Oh! Wait! There weren't any!

re: what the framers meant
Saveguns.com posted this on the George Will column yesterday:

The Founder's Defense
If the Founding Fathers could speak to you today... Or maybe if they were all logged into TownHall right now, maybe these are things they would say in defense of the Second Amendment's original intent and spirit.

I'm very sorry for the long post, but the Founding Fathers have a lot to say on this matter.

Before I post the Founder's Defense of the Second Amendment, I must say that the Miller case did not infer that arms may only be possessed by active members of the organized militia. That's a reinvention of American history as well as a misreading of the Miller case itself.

Now let the Founding Fathers be heard on the matter:

"I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the Federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances."
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98


"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776


"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important."
Thomas Jefferson 1803


"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson, in letter to William S. Smith, 1787


"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."
Samuel Adams


"...It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control...The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them."
Samuel Adams


"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
Samuel Adams of Massachusetts -- U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788


"(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
James Madison, The Federalist Number 46


"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
James Madison


"[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace."
James Madison, In his autobiography


"Arms in the hands of individual citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..."
John Adams, A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America, 1788


"You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments: rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe."
John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President


"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."
Alexander Hamilton Federalist 29


"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large, is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton


"... of the liberty of conscience in matters of religious faith, of speech and of the press; of the trial by jury of the vicinage in civil and criminal cases; of the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; of the right to keep and bear arms.... If these rights are well defined, and secured against encroachment, it is impossible that government should ever degenerate into tyranny."
James Monroe (1758-1831), 5th US President


"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)


"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington


"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole body of the people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..."
George Mason


"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason


"Have we the means of resisting disciplined armies, when our only defense, the militia is put in the hands of Congress?"
Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 48.


"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry


"Are we at least brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.


"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops..."
Noah Webster, An Examination of The Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia 1787


"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe."
Noah Webster


"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
Tench Coxe, June 18, 1789


"The power of the sword, say the minority of Pennsylvania, is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from 16 to 60. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
Tench Coxe, writing as "the Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, 1788


"The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them"
Tench Coxe, An American Citizen IV, October 21, 1787


"...[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property...Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775


"...if a thief breaks into my house, burns and destroys my property, and kills or threatens to kill me, or those that are in it, and to 'bind me in all cases whatsoever' to his absolute will, am I to suffer it?"
Thomas Paine


"Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts


"I ask what is the purpose of the militia? To offset the need of large standing armies, the bane of liberty."
Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts


"Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
"M.T. Cicero" 1788


"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of
destruction."
Blackstone's 1768 "Commentaries on the Laws of England"


"The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms has justly been considered the palladium of the liberties of the republic, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers, and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
Joseph Story, United States Supreme Court Justice, 1833


"The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the 'government', not to 'society'; and as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible disadvantage."
Joel Barlow, Advice to the Privileged Orders, 1792-93


"[The disarming of citizens] has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their oppression."
Joel Barlow, Advice to the Privileged Orders, 1792-93


"An act against the Constitution is void. An act against natural equity is void."
James Otis (1725-1783)


"All persons shall bear arms, and every male person shall have in continual readiness a good musket or other gun, fit for service."
Connecticut Gun Code of 1650


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America"
Gazette of the United States October 14, 1789


"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..."
Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788


"The constitution ought to secure a genuine militia and guard against a select militia. ....all regulations tending to render this general militia useless and defenseless, by establishing select corps of militia, or distinct bodies of military men, not having permanent interests and attachments to the community ought to be avoided."
Richard Henry Lee


"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny."
Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789


"No free government was ever founded or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state.... Such are a well regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen."
State Gazette (Charleston), September 8, 1788


"Instances of the licentious and outrageous behavior of the military conservators of the peace still multiply upon us, some of which are of such nature and have been carried to so great lengths as must serve fully to evince that a late vote of this town, calling upon the inhabitants to provide themselves with arms for their defense, was a measure as prudent as it was legal. It is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the [English] Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defense, and as Mr. Blackstone observes it is to be made use of when the sanctions of society and law are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression."
From "A Journal of the Times", calling the citizens of Boston to arm themselves in response to British abuses of power, 1769

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com

Also, anyone interested in
more info on the DC court ruling is welcome to drop by my blog. This post has links to more columns on the topic:

http://exeter.townhall.com/g/34835e1d-292d-4e74-9242-8e6f129df2ca

Cyne: Thanks, but...
... you know what? By going through all the quotes, and trying to justify our position, we're playing the game by THEIR RULES. We're trying to answer THEIR OBJECTIONS. We're letting them DEFINE THE GAME. Those quotes have been out there for over 200 years, and are obviously having little or no impact.


That's why I posted what I did earlier on this thread. The point is to take their own arguments and turn them around against the libs.

Example: Libs: "Guns only for militia". Great, no prob. Here's the definition of "militia".

That should end the argument for a rational person, but hey, we're talking about libs, so let's continue.

Libs: "No, we're it means the organized state militias" (remember, we're talking LIBS here). "Okay, organized state militias don't include cops or the regular miltary. Let's then disarm them, too".

As I wrote earlier, don't try this at home. This demonstration was for entertainment purposes only, and was performed by a trained professional in a controlled environment. Attempts to recreate this experiment by others may result in death or injury.


Dude3344
Yeah, that's a given. You're stating common sense in an issue based on emotional hysteria from the Left, commitment to rights on the Right, and an MSM that's pitched against us.

We have to redefine the battle. That's been the goal of my posts today on this column.

We can't be simply restating the same old emotional dogma, even if it's from our side and we like it. IOt hasn't been working for a while.



New tactics, anyone?

The Problem
with turning the argument around is that many proponents of gun control think that a disarmed police force and military would be a good start.

Re: Assault Weapons
A common red herring of the anti-gun crowd is that individuals should not be allowed to possess military weapons. There is an interesting counter to this in another seldom referenced part of that neglected organic law, our Constitution. Part of Article I, section 8 which grants Congress certain enumerated powers, reads: "To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;". Letters of marque and reprisal were Congressional authorization for legal pirates to capture enemy shipping. To do so required not only small arms and ships, but also the Weapons of Mass Destruction at the time, namely cannons and other artillery. This would seem to require the legal right to possess such equipment then, and even today. I presume this is what allows mercenaries, I mean "contractors" in places like Iraq and New Orleans to be carrying automatic arms. Why not the rest of us? I'm looking forward to the majority opinion of Justice Thomas redressing the long standing misinterpretation of this and the Second Amendment.

Gun Control ?

I taught my children gun control at an early age, and they can control a weapon quite well thanks to my teaching.

The day the Imperial Federal Government comes to my door demanding my guns is the day it get the same as any thief breaking into my property.

For those of you who do not want to see that day come, join the NRA, GOA or some other pro gun club or association because there is strength in numbers. I do recommend the NRA, it is able to bring significant political pressure to bear when needed.

To BrianR
You said:

"If the "collective right" argument is correct, and the only people given a Constitutional right to "keep and bear arms" is reserved to state militias, then neither police nor the federal military are endowed with that right, as the 2nd amendment doesn't specifically name them as having the right."

I love it!

You're right in that we should easily be able to turn their own arguments against them.

However, I do think that the actual historical quotations from the men who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights is still very important. Many people still are not aware of the massive collections of quotes on this issue.

Obviously when the writer Steve Chapman said:

"...because they barely discussed the right and what it might entail."

He was not even aware of the quotes posted above that I posted on George Will's column. I even held back dozens more relevant quotations that did not expressly convey the point I was making yesterday.

For all of them, please see them on my Web site, I won't bother doubling the size of this board again...

http://www.savetheguns.com/quotes.htm

Another argument that perturbs me to no end is the one that goes "if it saves one child..."

If it saves one child, let's have capital punishment for all child molesters. If it saves one child, let's have NASCAR racing harnesses for every driver.

The "if it saves one child" argument is troublesome for many reasons. Not the least of which is that more children are saved by their parents utilizing firearms to ward away rapists, thieves, muggers and other miscreants of society.

I say that if it saves one child, everyone committing a crime of rape, robbery or murder should get hung from the nearest tree whenever they are found guilty. Boy, wouldn't that save some children...

Marc
http://www.SaveTheGuns.com




"for the children" bulls**t
"For the children" is a liberal lie. Abortion is "for the children". NAMBLA is "for the children". Waco was "for the children".

Gun control is the level of accuracy necesesary to bring down the enemy with the first shot (French have no gun-control.)

Assult weapons and Second Amend resource
First, they are no longer to be called Assult Weapons. They are Homeland Defense Weapons...Let's get the name right!!

FWIW, here are several resources for study of the Second Amendment. The DVD is particularly good.
http://www.secondamendmentdocumentary.com/
http://www.virginiainstitute.org/publications/primer_on_const.php
http://www.palladiumpress.com/reference/2nAmndPrim.htm

Way too often- short attention span
Way too often there are people who suffer fro short attention span. They can't get to the end of an article or a paragraph

Example:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,( they stop here) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, (they stop here) the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

And they don't even notice that the state and the people are mentioned separately in:

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


Second Amendment
Militia member DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, THEY HAVE A REQUIREMENT.

The Second Amendment, as do all in the of the Bill of Rights, is about a RIGHT!

We The People
We The People...All of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights have to do with individual rights. These three seemingly unimportant words sum it all up.

This simple gouping of words, "We The People" is of paramount importance, and says it all. Because you can't have a "We", without first having a "You" and a "Me".

God Bless America, and Stand Up For Your Rights!!

Come again?
How can one interpret the Second Amendment to allow states to ban the carry of handguns or any other restriction if the amendment is, at the same time, read to mean that they cannot ban outright the posession of guns in general.

The Second Amendment clearly states "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It does not say "prohibited", it does not say "denied". It says "infringed". Any restriction, of any kind, is an infringement on that right and is, by definition, unconstitutional.

We The People
We The People...All of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights have to do with individual rights. These three seemingly unimportant words sum it all up.

This simple grouping of words, "We The People" is of paramount importance, and says it all. Because you can't have a "We", without first having a "You" and a "Me".

God Bless America, and Stand Up For Your Rights!!

2nd Amendment
... And it's about time, too!

Visit: OsiSpeaks.com or OsiSpeaks.org

Framers' Intent Was Clear
I'm stunned by Chapman's statement that the Intent of the Framers (regarding the 2nd Amendment) was not effectively recorded/communicated. Here's what Alexander Hamilton siad in the Federalist Papers (Federalist No. 29 entitled "Concerning the Militia"): "... if circumstances should at any time oblige the (newly created federal) government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens."
And this from Framer Richard Henry Lee: "A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves... and include all men capable of bearing arms. To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms."
I could go on ad nuaseum, but my point is made. The Framers spoke loud and clear in REJECTING any notion of "gun control." - Keith G Tatarelli

Collective Rights = Seperate but Equal.

The term "Collective Rights" is an oxymoron. This is the excuse used by a pernicious government to cynically deny individuals their rights in an arbitrary and capricious manner. Its twin is "separate but equal" and is just as bogus and antithetical to the Constitution.

It's time that collective rights are declared just as unconstitutional as seperate but equal.

Steve Chapman is wrong...

...the D.C. Circuit Court is not the first federal appeals court to strike down a gun control law as a violation of the Second Amendment.

The United States District Court,
Western District Of Arkansas, Fort Smith Division, found that the infamous Jack Miller, of the equally infamous "Miller Decision", was within his rights to possess the firearm in question due to that courts opinion that the National Firearms Act (NFA) Act of June 26, 1934, C.757, Section 11, 48 Statute 1239, violated the Second Amendment.

The federal attorney's, wanting to get as much on Jack Miller as they could, appealed this decision to the US Supreme Court and the Arkansas Courts decision was reversed on the grounds that a sawed-off shotgun was not germane to the "militia" prefatory of the 2nd. Amendment.

BTW, when this case was heard in Wash. D.C., during the courts October, 1938 term, Miller's claim was not represented by any counsel. Only the governments attorneys were present to argue the governments claim. Only one argument was heard, only one side considered. We would not tolerate such an imbalance and denial of due process today.

The Miller vs US decision was bad decision about a bad case. Miller may not have deserved any better, but the the "rights of the people" and the Bill of Rights certainly do.

It is time.

Not much new to those in the know ..
.. but I have a paper that addresses the issue of what the Constitutional Framers intended as well as disecting a couple of the Supreme Court decisions about the Second Amendment.

http://solicon.townhall.com/g/425b050d-3f45-4b96-a7a0-7a36346a04dc

Was a term paper for a college class.

NRA?
I have been a member for years 10+. But I am starting to question that. If we were working towards real 2nd Amendment Rights then the NRA would quite makeing deals with our rights. This is not about sporting type wepons it is about any wepon/FireArms... I have also joind the JEWS FOR THE PRESVERATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP. No I am not JEW and it does not matter. This group wants to see the BATF go away and is putting full effort into it. They have a letter from the NRA where the NRA goes at length to defend the BATF and say's we need to keep it in power. Don't belive me go to the site for yourself and read. Also lot's of info on how government abuse of right to keep arms is out of control. I will for now support both but I am not sure how much longer I can give to the NRA. The problem is if our full 2nd Amendment Rights are restored to us then the NRA would have no real purpose and then where would all those fine people get a paycheck from? Gun Control is in the best interest of the NRA employees!! Think about it for a second. Please check out this website and learn more about them. Here is there mission statement: "To destroy "gun control" and to encourage Americans to understand and defend all of the Bill of Rights for everyone." Speaks for itself I think.

http://www.jpfo.org/

Something for the disposition.
U.N. does not intend to honor our Constitution!
You might want to save this link for later.
The link is short but it is to a 46 page document on how the U.N. plans to disarm civilians.
(1st screen is blank. Pg dn

http://www.jpfo.org/proposaldestruction.pdf

Second & Tenth Amendments
The Second & Tenth Amendments to the US Constitution:


When one considers the wording of the Tenth Amendment one can see the logic of why the two, argumentatively dissimilar rights are combined into a single sentence in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution. The Tenth Amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Which is to say that those powers not delegated to the national government or prohibited to be exercised by the States are granted to the States or to the people.

Section Eight Article I of the United States Constitution grants certain powers only to the national government including the power: "To provide and maintain a Navy" (Clause 13) -ergo a Minnesota, or California State Navy has never been allowed under the US Constitution - it is one of those powers delegated solely to the National Government - hence there is nothing similar to the "California National Guard" in terms of a maritime force under the control of the governor. The power of a State to "enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation" is totally forbidden by Article I, Section Ten, Clause 1 of the Constitution (some may however, claim that the "Tobacco Settlement" did in fact violate this clause).

Under the Tenth Amendment all activities that are not the sole purview of the national government and are not forbidden to the States "are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." With this concept in mind let us now reread the Second Amendment:

"Amendment II: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The first part of the sentence ("A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State") insures the States the right to maintain a Militia AKA an Army (but not a Navy), while the last part of the sentence (as in the Tenth Amendment) speaks to "…the right of the people [in this instance] to keep and bear Arms…". Hence the framers of the Second Amendment clearly intended the right to keep and bear Arms to be a right of both the individual States and the people.

While some argue that the correct interpretation of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms pertains solely to the right of a State government to maintain a Militia e.g. a police force or a National Guard (generally failing to give any credence to the concept of an individual right), this author would submit that this right, whatever its historical foundation of this interpretation was "trumped" by the events culminating in 1865. It seems incompressible to this author that any of the proponents of this (the state militia) interpretation of the Second Amendment would support the concept of say Florida having a State Militia, under the sole command of the Governor, being armed with nuclear missiles.



J. William Stinde, Ph.D., CFM
12 November 2004



To Dr Bill
The events culminating in 1865 did not render State Militias or the 2nd amendment inoperable. Indeed, the correct interpretation is that "individuals" have the right to keep and bear nuclear missiles since the type of arms is not specified.

You may think this is a lunatic interpretation, but there you go. You either follow the law or you throw it all out and have revolution. They had a chance to do this right with an amendment to allow control of machine guns etc. Instead they tried the shortcut.

By the way, I assume you meant incomprehensible rather than incompressible.

ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL

Sometimes it appears that our own government would like nothing better than to leave our self-defense to somebody else. Then it becomes something other than self-defense, doesn't it?

It is my right as a citizen to protect myself in my own home.

In my opinion the government would be overthrown in the event it attempted to disarm all citizens. Naturally, it would begin with law-abiding citizens -- they're easier to deal with. We cannot let that happen.

I'm no trigger-happy gun-toting 4th-of-July-aim-for-the-sky thoughtless dim-wit. But I can aim for whatever or whoever attempts to harm me or mine -- especially in my own home. I do not want that absolute right taken from me. I hope that "we the people" can make that crystal clear to those in positions to make such decisions for us.


ArmsnAmmo
I hear you amigo but we WIN by numbers, nothing else. I am a Life Member in the NRA and while they always ask for money, etc, they do A LOT of good.

D.C. decision
Does this mean I can wash and polish my Paladin out in the open now?

Gun control
I don't agree with absolute gun control; i believe that it is every American's right to own one but to only use it when needed in protection. It is the people who take advantage of their privilege that worries me, and I, frankly, have no idea how to solve the problem but hope that a sensible solution is quickly found.
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