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Sunday, May 24, 2009
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
No thanks to government health care plantation
by Star Parker
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Four Republicans -- Senators Tom Coburn of Oklahoma and Richard Burr of North Carolina along with Congressmen Paul Ryan of Wisconsin and Devin Nunes of California -- have fired the first salvo in the great health care reform debate.

They've introduced the Patients' Choice Act. Now, although we have a pretty good idea of what Democrats have in mind, we await crystallization of their ideas into legislation.

The difference of approach of the two parties on health care rides on the same basic question that divides the country and the parties on everything else. Are the problems we're facing today the result of too much government intervention in our economy and our lives or not enough?

The Patients' Choice Act reflects Republican thinking that health care costs are out of control and, as result, not affordable for many, because of too much government. It allows Americans to take direct control of their health care expenditures by giving families and individuals cash in the form of a tax credit ($5700 and $2300 respectively) to buy insurance and set up a Health Savings Account.

Democrats will take things in the opposite direction. Rather than controlling costs and access through more competition and consumer control, they see it coming from more government and regulation. Mandates on employers to provide insurance, fines if they don't, and using those funds to finance a new subsidized government plan.

And central to cost control are government bureaucrats defining what procedures may be used and determining what physicians will be compensated.

I'd suggest two considerations in assessing whether today's runaway costs and inefficiencies are the result of too much government or not enough.

First, we already have massive government involvement in health care. Practically half of all health care delivered today comes directly from government programs -- mainly those begun in the 1960's. Medicare, Medicaid, and then later the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).

Only 35 percent of health care is paid for through private insurance. Some 87 percent of it is paid for by third parties -- either government or employers. In 1960, 60 percent of Americans' health care expenditures were out of their own pocket. Today it is 12 percent.

So massive growth in health care spending and cost escalation correlates directly with increasing government involvement in this marketplace and decreasing consumer control over their own expenditures. Does this tell you something?

Second, to see government health care at work, we don't need to look at Canada or Great Britain or Cuba. Fifty nine million Americans already have it. It's called Medicaid.

Medicaid was passed in 1965 to cover health care for poor Americans. It is a pure entitlement. If you qualify, you are covered. Government, both federal and state, pays.

Bureaucrats define what is covered and how much physicians will be paid. And, as result, there is a huge gap between being covered and actually getting health care.

On average, 40 percent of physicians won't accept Medicaid patients. They are paid less than what it costs them to provide the care. In a survey done last year by Merritt Hawkins, a healthcare manpower firm, 65 percent of physicians said reimbursements from Medicaid were less than their costs.

Merritt Hawkins did a survey this year of physicians of different specialties in fifteen different cities on acceptance of Medicaid patients. In Washington, D.C., for example, which has the highest incidence of children living in poverty in the country, only 63 percent of surveyed physicians in family practice will accept Medicaid patients.

A federal district appeals court ruled just a few weeks ago, affecting Alabama, Florida, and Georgia, that state Medicaid programs can't be forced to pay if they disagree with a doctor's decision regarding care. In this particular case, Medicaid officials disagreed with the amount of nursing care prescribed by a physician for a teenager who suffers seizures.

A study cited by Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a physician and health care expert at the American Enterprise Institute, showed Medicaid patients to be 50 percent more likely to die after heart bypass surgery than patients with private coverage or Medicare.

Move the whole nation onto a new government health care plantation?

No thanks. I'll take freedom and personal responsibility.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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No Constitutional Right To Healthcare

Regardless of what Obama stated in the 2nd Presidential debate, there is no right to healthcare in the US Constitution.

Social Security will be bankrupt by 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office, and Medicaid will follow along in 2017.

ObamaCare will have to reflect the same monstrous socialized healthcare systems that exist in the UK, Sweden, Canada, France, and other socialized countries. There will be a bureaucracy deciding on whether you get a test, a drug, and surgery, or anything.

Over a certain age? Sorry, but you are SOOL.


Press #6 for Thomas Paine and hope that City Hall does not answer.

Oh come on, Denis
It's a living (dead) document!

Hoodaticus

Damn right. It is a dead document except with Amendments.

The Federals can keep spending us into bankruptcy through its unfunded spending.

Repeal the 16th Amendment.

America's Future - Revolution by 2012
From a man who knows, Gerald Celente:

http://www.infowars.com/celente-predicts-revolution-food-ri ots-tax-rebellions-by-2012/

In case you people think he's a nutjob...

“When CNN wants to know about the Top Trends, we ask Gerald Celente.”
— CNN Headline News

“A network of 25 experts whose range of specialties would rival many university faculties.”
— The Economist

“Gerald Celente has a knack for getting the zeitgeist right.”
— USA Today

“There’s not a better trend forecaster than Gerald Celente. The man knows what he’s talking about.”
- CNBC

“Those who take their predictions seriously … consider the Trends Research Institute.”
— The Wall Street Journal

“Gerald Celente is always ahead of the curve on trends and uncannily on the mark … he’s one of the most accurate forecasters around.”
— The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

“Mr. Celente tracks the world’s social, economic and business trends for corporate clients.”
— The New York Times

“Mr. Celente is a very intelligent guy. We are able to learn about trends from an authority.”
— 48 Hours, CBS News

“Gerald Celente has a solid track record. He has predicted everything from the 1987 stock market crash and the demise of the Soviet Union to green marketing and corporate downsizing.”
— The Detroit News

“Gerald Celente forecast the 1987 stock market crash, ‘green marketing,’ and the boom in gourmet coffees.”
— Chicago Tribune

“The Trends Research Institute is the Standard and Poors of Popular Culture.”
— The Los Angeles Times

“If Nostradamus were alive today, he’d have a hard time keeping up with Gerald Celente.”
— New York Post

So there you have it - hardly a nutjob conspiracy theorist blowhard now is he? The price of not heeding his warnings will be far greater than the cost of preparing for the future now. Storable food and gold are two good places to make a start.

For My Lib Buddies.
Ever since LBJs war on poverty, poor Americans have voted for the Democrat, and their still poor.

Ever call the IRS? Visit the DMV?
But Oh No scream the libs, healthcare will be different.
I challenge any liberal to name one government organization that performs on a par with private enterprise.
Ever been to the Post Office? Court?
Yeh I know you think healthcare will be different and I think you're a fool.

Link to WSJ article
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124277551107536875.html#pri ntMode

This is better than the tyrannical alternative.

Oh, and . . .
the Democrats' plan will only cause more layoffs forcing people into government-run plans. Unemployment will soar beyond Depression levels, but they will meet their goal of controlling the market. How the Pres will measure "saved jobs" then? He won't have to. We'll have more gov't workers, lower efficiencies in production, more blame on capitalism. This has to be stopped.

Socialized Medicine For Us
and top-of-the-line private care for slobs like Ted Kennedy.

Can't we send Ted Kennedy to Canada for care for his brain cancer? Solve that problem! Come to think of it, why is he getting ANY care at all--he's terminal, isn't he?

Alexander Tytler

"When the people awaken to the fact that they can vote to themselves the largesse of the public Treasury, democracies fail."


Orwellian doublespeak
"Patient choice"..."conservative idea"... what a crime against the English language that George Orwell would have understood!

The choice consumers want is being free of the profit-laden greedy insurance companies--who routinely deny choice and make your decisions based on their profit. And health savings accounts--a radical, untested idea that doesn't come anywhere near universal coverage.

The naysayers truly have no confidence in America to solve the health care crisis. Their pessimism, distortions and fear mongering isn't worthy of our great country.

So let's look at our government run
enterprises now, Amtrak (have you been on an Amtrak operated train lately, say from Virginia to Florida?). The US Postal Service (last I heard they wern't making any money. How long will it take to get this there? You're kidding!) The ever popular DMV (I'd just like to know where to pick up a form Miss. Sit on the chairs sir and wait your turn, there are only 40 people ahead of you.) NO THANKS! Obama's big (socialist) government will take your money, then your freedom, and finally your will to do anything about it.

Tripple book Medicaid patients
My docs triple book Medicaid patients who obviously don't value that which is free and don't show up.

ClaireSolt
What you say is very true - I volunteer at a free clinic. Once you are registered as a patient you can have the ability to set appointments basically at will while there are literally 1000s of people that call a day trying to become patients. You would think the patients that are already registered would never miss an appointment since they are so lucky to patients... but NOOO, they're much too busy to take advantage of their free health care. Unless of course we're talking about viagra - most of them don't really care if they don't get their heart medication, but if they don't get their viagra OOHHH boy they are pissed.

I constantly have to tell people that they will have to go to the emergency room because we just don't have the resources to take care of them... but see Obama, in all his wisdom, wants to make it very difficult for us to get donations by making them no longer tax deductible...

See if it's not he personally who is helping you, then you should just suffer.

How This Really Works
Many people do not understand that the philosophy behind Health Care Savings Accounts is that patients should be discouraged from going to the doctor---that they run to the doctor for frivolous reasons, and that if they have to pay out-of-pocket, they won't do that. These plans are coupled with very high-deductible insurance, usually several thousand dollars per year per individual. Every office visit, blood test, mammogram, ER visit, and prescription, must be paid in full directly by the patient with insurance not paying part, as is the case in traditional medical insurance. I am sitting here looking at what came in my mail just this week from Blue Cross: statements that they have paid over $2500 for routine office visits, lab work, and diagnostic test. Things cost a lot, and that money will not last long.

In such a situation, the first thing to go will be preventive care. People, knowing that they can "keep the money" that isn't spent on medical care, will quickly opt out of the $600 annual mammogram and the $1200 routine physical. Many conditions will go undetected in their early, more curable form. And the argument that "people will shop for a better price" is unrealistic when a person needs that prescription ASAP to treat a strep throat or the pain of a broken arm---they won't be shopping the Internet and waiting for a mail delivery of pills, or phoning a dozen doctors to compare prices.

To Vincent
I am appalled that a volunteer at a free medical clinic should have such a nasty attitude toward the patients. I wonder, if you were volunteering where your clientele consisted of upper-middle class non-minority patients paying large amounts of money for their service, whether you might be less snotty.

And if you have a high rate of no-shows, what are you doing to address that problem?

To St Denis
If you have private medical insurance, there is already a bureaucracy deciding what medical service you will receive. It was insurance companies' decision to stop covering the pre-surgical night in the hospital, so that surgery patients (who may have been up all night enjoying a gallon of that pre-surgical laxative delight, Go-Litely) have to drive whatever distance to the hospital to report by, say, 5 AM. It was insurance companies who pushed for same-day surgery so that you now have to climb off the operating table and go catch a ride home instead of resting in bed. Many plans have the power to switch the drug your doctor prescribes, to a cheaper one. And it's common for doctors to be told how long they can spend with each patient and for drugs, tests, and treatments to be denied. Where profit is the first motive, good medical care ends.

To ncjack
Yes, I've been on an overnight AMTRAK trip lately, and I was appalled. Since Republican administrations have denied funding, AMTRAK service has deteriorated to an unimaginable level. Compare & contrast with European train service. Trains in Europe are sleek, new, comfortable, and very, very fast. They leave on time right to the second. You can go from anyplace to anyplace: there is always a train. Conductors are professionals who are fountains of information, manage everything including international border crossings, and speak several languages. Every city has a gargantuan modern train station, city-center and loaded with services, including entire large shopping malls. Train arrivals articulate with departures of buses and boats. All over Europe, rail travel works like a well-oiled machine.

How, you may ask? Why, through the evil most feared by Conservatives, government subsidy and control. Through partnership of government and private enterprise. Through a basic philosophy that government exists to meet the needs of the people---not to leave people on their own to struggle however they can.

lilly

I decide my own medical treatment and I don't want the government making decisions about my health. Do you want some pencil pusher in Washington deciding on your medical treatment?

Recall that until the LBJ Administration, Social Security amounted to a little less than 1% of GDP. Now, spending for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid equal more than 8% of our annual GDP. It is out of control and amounts to between $56tn and $75tn in unfunded liabilities.

Regardless of the stated attention that of this program that it would merely affect insurance, it will impact patients in the end. Many employers will dump their employees into the Federal system. Approximately, 1600 veterans are dying daily and many of those have suffered through years of failed collectivist healthcare in the VA.

Do I think that healthcare is in crisis? Yes, but I don't think that Washington should nationalize healthcare and dump all of us into a British, Swedish, French or Canadian socialized systems. And, even in those countries there exists a private market where even some of the middle class will dig into their own wallets to pay for private doctors and clinics.

Lilly
Honestly, where do you people come from? "Since Republican administrations have denied funding(to AMTRAK)". Really? Is that the best that you can do? Actually, its Congress that controls the pursestrings, not the party in the White House. The last several decades of Democratic control of Congress could have given AMTRAK money whenever they wanted, and they did. The fact that AMTRAK has not turned a profit, ever, doesn't seem to even enter your mind.

My problem with people like you is your ignorant, naive and foolish belief in the need for government to control every aspect of our lives. I really don't need to be told by President Obimbo what doctor I can see, what treatments I can get, what kind of car I can drive, what kind of schools my kids can go to. I can figure those things out for myself, its whats called liberty. If you need to be told all of those things because you can't make the decision for yourself, I'm sorry. If you love government so much, go ahead and give them all your money, I'm sure they'll find a way to spend it, just stop trying to make me do the same.

And, enough with the European comparisons already. If you liberals love Europe so much, go ahead and move there, we won't miss you. I've lived in Europe and your assessment of their rail systems is inaccurate, at best. Europe has stagnant economies, poor job mobility, higher unemployment than the US, less job creation, lower GDP, etc, etc..But by all means, let's emulate the health care, economies and policies of nations that we have outperformed for the last 100 years.

to lilly
You stated "Since Republican administrations have denied funding, AMTRAK service has deteriorated to an unimaginable level." That's not true. The Bush administration signed legislation (Oct 2008) passed by both the house and senate to nearly double funding for AMTRAK over next 5 years. That doesn't sound like a republican administration denial to fund AMTRAK by me.

Why aren't the current data examined?
Why isn't a statistical comparison done on Medicaid and non-Medicaid results for most ailments like was done on heart bypass, to show the benefit of government care? Are liberals afraid of exposing the facts, like is happening in global warming?

We have seen the results of government control in education already. Look at Washington, DC, where $16,000/pupil is spent on a failing public system, yet vouchers for $7500 are "too expensive" and the President has ended the program for new recipients.

Tell me then whether President Bush or President Obama wants to help children in failing schools? At least SOME of these kids go to the same schools as the Obama children and Chelsea Clinton attended.

Lilly, a seasoned citizen, writes about how Republicans are trying to kill her benefits under Social Security and Medicare, and always espouses government control. I am waiting for the day when Lilly, instead of getting care like she is now, has government control of the whole medical system. She and others like her will instead get wheelchairs or crutches instead of hip and knee transplants, pain drugs instead of cancer treatments, etc like happens in Britain and Canada. And the lines will be long, Lilly, as you will have to wait for the 20 year olds who still have a productive life.

Government can't make health care cheap.
Medicare and Medicaid are both good examples, but let's face it. We like expensive health care. We like going to state of the art modern facilities. We like being able to get expensive tests within a day or two of the doctor's order. We like the latest drugs.

We have all heard the universal saying that says we cannot have high quality, high efficiency and low price. We can only have two out of the three. The government is promising lower price. Which of the remaining two are we willing to sacrifice? The military is a good example in that we have high quality and high efficiency if you consider that we can have troops almost anywhere in the world ready to fight within a few hours of orders. But it is the most expensive in the world. The big difference in my opinion is that the military is a legitimate and necessary function of government. Universal health care is not.

Expected Outcome
If the Democrats get their way, the overall percentage of GNP spent on health care will rise not fall, the quality of care will fall not rise, and the availability of care will fall not rise.

With the other damaging actions to the economy, the rise in health care costs as a percent of GNP will rise even more.

Profit is a good word
For those who view medical workers as priests and nums of health care, while this type of work does evoke strong emotional feelings, many who go into those fields also realize the earnings potential. Providing medical care to others is a service, and takes years to develop skills. It is like other service businesses like legal, mechanics, lawn care, tattoo artists, beautician, etc.

As Thomas Sowell said (or something close), if you think the waitress is bringing you food because she's concerned about you, you'd better think again. Maybe that's why you 50 cent tippers don't get such good service the second time with the same waitress.

Private insurance is as bad as government in allocating and dictating care. As Star pointed out, not many people pay for their own care anymore, so a third party, who is reduced to acting on price alone, makes the decisions. Responsibility and authority go together. You cannot have the authority to purchase health care if you do not want the responsibility to pay for it. You become a benevolent ward of the state.

What I really resent, is being forced into a system I don't want. I don't call that a right.

lilly
You are dead wrong about Health Savings Accounts. Yes, there is a high deductible. But the savings in premiums between typical full coverage health insurance and the HSA covers that. For my wife and I, full health insurance coverage is over $1000/month. HSA is $300. $700/month x 12 months = $8400. Our deductible is $7500. If we meet the deductible, we are less out of pocket than buying full insurance. If we don't, it's money that is left in the account to cover next year's deductible. Further, once we meet the deductible, 100% of everything is covered.

Full insurance coverage would have copays, some prescriptions not covered, limited coverage of certain procedures and the normal hoops to be jumped through.

If employers would give the employee the money and let them get their own HSA coverage, it would cost the employer no more than it currently does, employees would be able to save money during the years when they are typically healthy, the policy is the ultimate in portability. Tax and employment policy needs to be changed to encourage private ownership of HSA and the elimination of employer-paid health insurance.

Insurance companies don't like it - they don't make as much money. I for one do not concern myself with the well-being of insurance companies.

Present system too costly
David Golf:Expected Outcome
If the Democrats get their way, the overall percentage of GNP spent on health care will rise not fall, the quality of care will fall not rise, and the availability of care will fall not rise.

REPLY:
Besides all of your assertions being false, what price do you put on those uninsured we lose because they wait too long to get emergency medical services?

Also, I heard no such arguments when engaging in an unnecessary war, or Republican pork for years, or worthless defense systems. Better to put the money in healthcare, I say.

Star
"...Are the problems we're facing today the result of too much government intervention in our economy and our lives or not enough?..."

Well let's look at results shall we? Nowhere has totally private healthcare worked. The hodgepodge we have now is among the costliest and least effective in the industrialized world. Far better results are achieved in a universal healthcare system of some kind.

I am not at all surprised that the totally disreputable American Enterprise Institute concentrates on Medicaid, an underfunded indigent care program, and Canadian healthcare, the socialized healthcare model currently in the most trouble.

I am a product of US socialized healthcare most of my life. It works and works well. It is called military healthcare. Perfect? Not at all but good? You bet it is. Other effective examples of US socialized healthcare are the VA system and the medicare system. From my point of view, I cannot see why the American citizens don't raise up and demand national healthcare of some kind for more effective healthcare and to save valuable taxpayer dollars if nothing else

No value on human life?
Joel:None. I put NO value on those that are unwilling to take care of themselves, or their children. Get a job, earn money, pay for your own medical care. Eat right, exercise, and pray to God daily (minimum).

REPLY:
Easy to say. The fact is that a majority of the uninsured come from working families. Many thanks to the underemployed (think Walmart).

The cost to small businesses is oppressive. That is why they support a government plan.

health care
this is the same govt that has already messed up medicare,medicaid social security and now liberals want to turn over our health care to them, no thanks

joel the loon
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 8:08 AM EST
Hal is INSANE!
"I am a product of US socialized healthcare most of my life. It works and works well. It is called military healthcare. ...From my point of view, I cannot see why the American citizens don't raise up and demand national healthcare of some kind for more effective healthcare and to save valuable taxpayer dollars if nothing else."



We do not demand national healthcare because we are not mentally ill, as you are, Hal. The level of medical care in the military is excellant if you are wounded in combat. For everything else, you wait, especially the dependants."

LOL facts usually say otherwise. The wait times for American healthcare is longer than for German and I guess you have been lucky and not ill for awhile because you have obviously not seen an urban ER. Look you were helpless once as an infant and child and if you are lucky you will need assistance as an old man. That is why we have a social contract to help each other. No one is ALWAYS strong enough to stand alone. It is the military concept. We are a team and we work together while knowing we are only as strong as our weakest link.

"..As for VA hospitals, it is not possible that you have ever been to one....Where no one checks on them for hours or days?"

Really there are a lot of those??? Not here in PA why do you have them in NV? You sound as if you have never been in a VA facility. I urge folks to visit one and talk to the patients and staff. Then you will know who is out of touch.

"... but you obviously don't live in the same reality as the rest of us."

The problem is dearie that there is only ONE reality since you think there are more that may explain your problem. Is it true that you live in a house trailer in the NV desert (not that there is anything wrong with that)?

the dangled carrot of health care

Canadians now spend about 60% of ALL income tax revenues on their national health care, yet it is seriously rationed and unpopular. When it really matters, they come down here and pay for it-- if they can.

Which begs a key question-- where will WE go after our health care is rationed?!

The ObaMessiah/Chosen One is already speaking of the need to ration health care, especially for older citizens when it becomes "free."

And don't ya' think ILLEGALS will find automatic health care that they STILL won't pay for even MORE attractive?! They are already drawn like bugs to a street light to the freebies they are milking now, including plaguing emergency rooms which cannot deny service... they have bankrupted myriad hospitals at taxpayer expense.

National Health Care has NOT succeeded ANYWHERE elsewhere, and some of the smaller countries are mostly white and homogeneous, whereas we have HUGE endemic health problems among our 25% minorities.

Guvment-provided health care is fools' gold-- the dangled carrot before the guvment's meaty hand grabs us by the privates and squeezes to generously support still more bureaucrats, fraud (as in Medicaid), and crooked pols.

a recent apropos post here

terry Location: GA

Date: May 18, 2009 - 5:04 PM EST

Your health care plan will go away -- just like the rest of ours.

There is no earnest effort by Obama and the Congress to improve anything about health care -- their goal is to use health care as a means of regulation.

- You want to smoke -- you'll be taxed more.

- If you're overweight -- you'll be taxed more.

- If you want to participate in certain activities deemed risky (deemed so by the government) -- you'll be taxed for it.

- If your home doesn't have this that and other in the way of "safety" -- you'll be taxed for it.

On and on it will go.

Health Care is the tool that Liberals stumbled upon years ago, as the means for regulating and controlling any and everything the American people do. And they will force you to conform to their demands by taxing, fining, penalizing and any other form of monetary confiscation. And they will do it under the guise of "saving the taxpayers money".

For example, if you don't meet the prescribed weight standards, you will be said to be a "health risk" and as a "health risk" the taxpayers have to foot the bill for your medical attention. They will claim that your being overweight isn't fair to the taxpayers and so you will have to be taxed or penalized for not meeting the weight standards. That's just one example.

Liberals are not in the least bit concerned about who does or doesn't have health care -- not even in the least. But they are concerned about forcing Americans to live their lives according to them. And the "health care" angle is the ticket!

Strong Liberal Programs

Raj:this is the same govt that has already messed up medicare,medicaid social security and now liberals want to turn over our health care to them, no thanks

REPLY:
Americans strongly supporting the programs you list. And are willing to pay for them. And Europeans strongly support their national health programs.

another recent post here
(slight edit)

Murphdog Location: HI

Date: May 18, 2009 - 4:12 PM EST

I don't believe Congressional Democrats
will do the right thing.

The Swiss don't have a border-crashing tsunami of ILLEGAL aliens crushing their Shealth-care system. They don't have (ILLEGAL) "immigrant rights" groups squeezing their politicians with race-laden threats to give the milk away for free while the native populace pays for it. Their emergency rooms aren't crowded with foreigners who pay $1 in taxes for every $3 in welfare they receive-- if that.

There are so many interconnected problems that must be solved first, and lax immigration enforcement is THE biggest influence; second is tort law; third is the demonization of insurance companies.

Only two things can happen in a universal, single-payer system - you either get less for the same cost, or you pay more for the same service.

And with an additional 100 million people, the system crashes-- amnesty would give us that 100 million more poor-- arriving laden with health problems... a formula for socio-economic disaster.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfm

a good recent post by St. Denis

St. Denis Location: LA

Date: May 19, 2009 - 11:01 AM EST

O'Poor Libs

HA! Y'all wanted socialized medicine.


Well, guess what? Congress is beginning to draft one closely resembling the disaster to the North ... CANADA!

Even if you have a potentially fatal heart problem the time between diagnosis and surgery is 3 years.

Need a specialist? The median waiting time is 17 weeks.

They rationed care, drugs (with some not available at all), tests, treatment and surgery all with a a long waiting time.


"A Canadian friend of mine once told me that the best place to get an MRI in Canada without having to wait 2 months is the veterinarian's office"; a/k/a, veterinary socialized medicine for libs care of yo massa!


It's all yours. Too bad, we won't be in that system with you!

Same rejected tune from rednecks
Oracle: And with an additional 100 million people, the system crashes-- amnesty would give us that 100 million more poor.

REPLY:

And the posts always leads to the demonization of minorities.

joel the loon
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 8:38 AM EST
Hal the Homosexual!
"The problem is dearie..."


You have referred to me several times as dearie. I wasn't sure I believed it when the other veterans would write that you were almost discharged for making advances at another man. Now I do believe them..."

They are lies but look up diminutive That is why I refer to you as dearie.

"...I am NOT your 'dearie'. ..Do NOT refer to me in that manner ever again!"

I will refer to you any way I like

another cogent St. Denis post
(slight edit for clarity)

St. Denis Location: LA

Date: May 18, 2009 - 6:36 PM EST

International Health?

You want to add $580bn & the $200mn that we are spending for international abortions, to this mess?

A $787bn stimulus bill.

A $3.6tn budget.

A national debt of $23.9tn dollar in 10 years.

Annual debt service of $1tn starting in 2019.

Continuing unemployment increases and home failings.

Gas prices of $3 gallon this summer.

Higher energy costs because of the recision of offshore leases in the Gulf on Mexico and Alaska that are dated beginning 01.01.07. Plus, a coal industry that Obama is going to go after even though solar and wind are only making up 1% of the nation's energy supply-- and cost far more to produce.

Inflation rising to 3% shortly and MUCH higher later because of the Federal Reserve's printing trillions and massive spending.

Food prices increasing.

Stock portfolios decimated.

China cutting up our credit cards.

Russia, China, and France cautioning about Obama's spending.

A $2tn national health care bill.

A gigantic welfare state taught in the indoctrination camps known as public schools.

First, Obama said his spending was a responsible "investment". Then, last Thursday he admitted it was "unsustainable". Ya think?

Yep, welcome to Obamanation!

Joel-De O #33: "Hal is INSANE!"

OF COURSE he is! We've ALL known that for a long time...

doofass is in his second childhood... assuming of course, that he ever grew out of his first... but even that's doubtful.





Daniel Hannon Warns of the Pitfalls of
Nationalized Health Care

"British MEP Daniel Hannon explains how nationalized health care is bad for both providers and the patients."

http://www.lonelyconservative.com/2009/03/29/daniel-hannon- warns-of-the-pitfalls-of-nationalized-health-care/




Government doesn't work - it uses force
Government health care is a very bad idea. Do we want hospitals run like the DMV? The free market system provides goods and services better than any other devised.

Many who support government health care, are those who don't want to support themselves, don't pay taxes and want to force others to give them health care for free. They are nothing but thieves. Democrats are offering them this for their votes. The power of government has been expanded to allow groups of people to steal from everybody else.

Star Parker's got it right that the "health care problem" is government made. And the problem is the amount government spends on it. How much individual spend for their health isn't government's business or concern. Government shouldn't be spending any money for health care except for care related to battlefield wounds. And it shouldn't be running hospitals, it should just pay the bills or insurance for such care. We owe it to our veterans.



spoiled children
Honestly when I hear all the complaints about health care and how many of them have to do with costs, I realize what little children we're dealing with. There is no consideration for the investment of time and hard work that a medical professional has to put in to achieve his skills. There is no consideration for the money needed to run a practice, buy medical equipment, the money invested in R&D.
People look at something that is good and somehow think they're entitled to benefit from the fruit of someone else's labor without an equal and just compensation. This is how children think, gimme, gimme, gimme. No one has a right to force someone to provide anything. All you leftists with your false morality, really are just attempting to make slaves of people by forcing them to provide for others.
It's very simple, if one wants to buy a service or product, then one must have the ability to pay for it. Under the guise of doing good you advocate theft. This is why you leftists must be opposed, because you are immoral, immature and take us down the road to where humans are viewed as commodities for the ethereal state. You are afraid to deal with the realities of life and thus attempt to quantify and control it. This comes from your rejection of God and the unwillingness to acknowledge your own wrongs and the temporalness of this world. So you thrash about wildly, not really caring who you bring down with you.

Belly crawling race-baiter response
Glenn: And the posts always leads to the demonization of minorities.

I believe the quote was 'an additional 100 million people.' There was no reference to race.

But you, a belly-crawling race-baiter, had to take it there.

the crippling cost of guvment
Hey, good to see BrianR back!
Another voice of reason amid a sea of leftist, statist, bug entitlement braying! ;>)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To see problems and challenges is NOT to see a need for another guvment program!

Guvment collects several dollars in taxes for EACH $ of service benefit that it pays back. Can you imagine paying a life insurance company $500,000 in premiums, and then they pay off $100k to your family when you die?

Mainly this profligate cost of guvment service delivery is due to the huge and highly overpaid bureaucracy, now soon to average $74,000 a year in wages alone-- about TWICE what their private industry counterparts earn.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0605-35.pdf
http://www.bankaholic.com/finance/lou-dobbs-federal-employe es-earn-twice-as-much-as-private-workers/

excerpt:

This report from CNN’s “Lou Dobbs Tonight” says the “pay gap between public and private workers is exploding.”

It cites a study that says the difference in average compensation — that’s wages and benefits — between federal and private workers grew from 68% in 2000 to 102% in 2007.

The average compensation for federal workers reached $110,450 a year vs. $57,615 for the average private worker.

Why?

The biggest reason, according to CNN, is that federal workers continued to receive pensions and retiree health care benefits that were being reduced or eliminated by private employers. (Furthermore, federal workers can retire sooner and tap into those generous retirement bennies.)

Even state and local guvment workers make 40% more-- and the gap is widening rapidly:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensa tion_N.htm


those who think health care...
...can't get any worse under govt control have pi$$poor imaginations and their knowledge of history, economics, etc., is even more limited.

lilly and amtrak
Lilly, dear god woman, you just do not know to think. It's frightening that you actually participate in the political process.
Lilly if AMTRAK was a service that people wanted to use, then it would be profitable. How hard is that for you to understand?
Obviously the people have spoken and chosen other forms of transportation, either for financial reasons, or that they just find other modes of transportation preferable. Peter Pan will cost around 69 bucks as compared to AMTRAK which will cost around 300. Longer time travel yes, but automatically a percentage of the population is going to reject AMTRAK.
Your inability to understand such simple concepts shows that you really have no place trying to speak on something such as healthcare.

Anybody who thinks
government can run anything effectively just needs to look around.

Hal
Sounds to me like you're bucking for the job as the poster child for "Obamacare."

You think the German healthcare system is so good? Why don't you move there and see how well they treat "Auslanders." Oh, and be a friend, take a couple of your liberal buddies with you.


been there done that
I was in the military and subject to the most cut rate medicine that I have seen.

Routine stuff is easy - colds, flus, ...

Try diagnostics. They are horrible. I had hyperthyroidism. After 3 months of trial and error by military medicine. Finally, my wife figured it out. When I told the military doctors they were appalled. Not that they missed the diagnosis, but that I went outside their care which was against policy. They did not care that they were incompetent, only that their "turf" was being infringed upon!

Get used to this because that is what gov't health care is all about.

reply to: Lenard
I understand your points about the time, dedication and costs to become an M. Deity.... my daughter will soon go to medical school, and we talk about the costs and time involved (though she will spend just 2 years in formal schooling beyond my master's).

The problem with that reckoning is that health care costs have risen FAR faster than other costs... we spend twice as much per capita on health care as any other country, but live no longer-- so we are really subsidizing failure.

M. Deities are part of the feeding frenzy problem. Nobody would suggest that they should not make more, but how MUCH more? Three times? Four times? Five?


http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_M edicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-s alaries.htm

I now teach business and econ at the college level... college costs have ALSO gone up far faster than inflation, but there is not a good answer there either; causes include overpaid bureaucracy (advisers and administrators) and the "edifice complex."

Choice
The government basically needs to allow the people to make their own choices. We can design a system for those people who want government run healthcare and a system for those who want private insurance.

I would be curious to see how many of those people who advocate for a government run system would actually choose the government plan over the private plan, if given the choice.

Paragrouper
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 9:55 AM EST
Hal
Sounds to me like you're bucking for the job as the poster child for "Obamacare."..."

I already have socialized healthcare from you folks as part of my deferred compensation thank you. It is good.

"...You think the German healthcare system is so good? Why don't you move there and see how well they treat "Auslanders." Oh, and be a friend, take a couple of your liberal buddies with you. "

Was an executive with a major german company. Their healthcare was good and they took excellent care of my child who need major facial repair from an accident. Their treatment was far ahead of what I would have gotten in the US and much less expensive

Rob
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 9:46 AM EST
Anybody who thinks
government can run anything effectively just needs to look around..."

What you see is following forty years of conservative incompetence and abuse. Look at the space race, the Cold War, WWII

ILLEGALS add HUGE health care costs

Heritage calculates that amnesty for 12 million, which is AGAIN pending in Congress would add $2.6 TRILLION to America's tax burdern-- we surely need that!

Indubitably, a key problem there is that 100 million new mostly poor and ignorant over the next 20 years would bring myriad health problems with them, together with a plethora of other social pathologies (crimes, drugs, gangs, balkanization, barrio blight, illegitimacy's, bilingual dysfunction, dropouts)

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1490.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/SR14es.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/recipe_for_disaster_how_to_d estroy_america.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Get involved to stop scamnesty today! Honor those who have died fighting for America (like my Uncle Alvin bombing Germany in WWII) by helping preserve what has made it special.

Find your Senators and Congressmen (and others) here... BOOKMARK IT and contact them often!

http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm

Tell them that you oppose any semblance of amnesty...that you support the SAVE Act... that there should be NO connection between working here ILLEGALLY and a path to citizenship...that it is CRIMINAL to speak of a path to citizenship even as 10% of Americans are unemployed...

And ILLEGALS are the WRONG type of immigrants (poor and ignorant... future social service dependents) for today's advanced service economy in America.

We need SOME of the educated and skilled, BUT they should come here LEGALLY.


Hal Donahue
No what you see around you is the failure of the Great Society experiment. Implemented by which ideology?

Health care
Am I the only one who sees the health care problem is the result of health insurance in the first place? any health insurance, private or public. When you spend your own money, you usually do so wisely and so these cost would be much lower because of lack of patronage. Life is fatal. We have substituted health care for religion in our lives and worship at the altar of doctors, testing, treatments and unlimited expenditires. I personal pay for what I use and use it sparingly. I wish others saw it my way?
The right to health care is not covered in the constitution

Health Care COSTS
Any time the government mentions "reform" it makes my blood run cold. Look at the "immigration reform." It means that we have to spend yet more money on immigrants and allow yet more people to overrun our country. Think its fun to live in Bombay, Mexico City etc?

Health care "reform" is following the same pattern of obfuscation. These officials are not looking at ways to truly "reform" the system, put some patient laws on the books which allow true patient rights. They are not going to do a damn thing about the truly PREDATORY practices in hospitals etc. (just try declining any part of a procedure!) Their only plan is to spend spend SPEND more taxpayer money on these outrageous people in health care.

In true blame the victim fashion they are claiming diet, obesity, smoking (where is the outrage at drinking alcohol?) salt, restaurants, seat belt use, helmet use, all these things are your own fault. They WILL deny service to any American whom they deem has been a bad little slave and not taken care of government property. (you) The poor immigrants will get the best healthcare.

Wait until they get hold of this. You will not only pay extra taxes for all of your anti social behavior, but I can just see the new slew of criminal laws pertaining to health.

Overweight? Reckless endangerment, attempted murder,or worse. You will go to jail for being fat. Oh I meant a "reeducation camp." Ditto for smokers, motorcycle riders, people who eat at McDonald's, anybody who resists being doped up by a Doctor, etc.

Lenard
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 9:33 AM EST
spoiled children
Honestly when I hear all the complaints about health care ...There is no consideration for the investment of time and hard work that a medical professional has to put in to achieve his skills..."

Or her skills by the way. But guess what? Why not think out of the box? Why should our healthcare professionals be saddled with all this debt? how many good people are we keeping from joining these professions. Why doesn't society help educate them as an investment in quality healthcare?

"... There is no consideration for the money needed to run a practice, buy medical equipment, the money invested in R&D..."

Again why is it all on their back?

"...People look at something that is good and somehow think they're entitled to benefit from the fruit of someone else's labor without an equal and just compensation. ..."

First point is our healthcare is failing not good. Second, point let's changes the terms of compensation and the costs


lenard II
"...All you leftists with your false morality, really are just attempting to make slaves of people by forcing them to provide for others..."

You know what? This may really sum it up. I consider it an honor to serve others that is the reason I was a policeman, military aviator and businessman. You consider it a burden. Why are you alive? What does your life mean? If it all about you, you have nothing at the end of the day but ashes. Perhaps this is the real difference between liberal and conservative

"...You are afraid to deal with the realities of life and thus attempt to quantify and control it..."

We embrace reality and you bet we do attempt to quantify and control our universe. Life is an exciting opportunity to be embraced and used.

"...This comes from your rejection of God..."

LOL believe whatever gets you through the night. It is you folks that your gods have led to approve torture and unnecessary war without admitting error. You reactionaries seem completely disconnected from change perhaps through fear and timidity

reply to: Hal Dufuss
re:
"What you see is following forty years of conservative incompetence and abuse. Look at the space race, the Cold War, WWII"

Hal, buddy, you need some new meds at the funny farm! You are currently TOTALLY delusional!

We did not ask for WWII OR the cold war, but
we WON both! Winning WWII pulled us out of the Depression, which had been protracted by FDR's misguided guvment "solutions." (unemployment was UNCHANGED 6 years into the New Deal, as Morgathau ruefully confessed).

I actually think that FDR was the most damaging POTUS of the 20th Century because he laid the foundation for LBJ's crippling Great Society-- we have squandered $11 TRILLION on "the war on poverty," only to make social pathologies far worse among the underclass. If we naturalize ILLEGAL aliens, the cycle will renew-- thus DOOMING America.

By breaking the Soviet Union, as it also imploded under a system similar to what you would have us embrace, we started the erosion of repressive, stultifying socialism elsewhere. China is a better competitive enterprise economy (in terms of direction and growth rate) than we now!

Hey Hal
What did you fly in the military?

Rob
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 10:50 AM EST
Hal Donahue
No what you see around you is the failure of the Great Society experiment. Implemented by which ideology?.."

Wrong what you see is the shambles of reaganism/hooverism as I like to point out when Ronnie became governor of CA that state had the best school system in the country when Ronnie became president of the US, CA no longer had the best school system in the states but the US had the best air traffic control system in the world. When reaganism/hooverism crushed unions and the living wage, they destroyed the American family and all that went with it. There is no viable family life when working two jobs for a less than livable wage, never home and worried about daily survival. All that lies at the sandy feet of your false god, conservatism.

THE GOAL


There’s a real plan in Obama’s approach to health care. While his plan is obvious to me it seems like it’s not getting much attention from others.

You will have the choice of keeping your existing insurance of taking the government plan. That means if you keep your private plan you get to pay for your plan AND to pay, though taxes, for the government plan.

As soon as those that chose to keep there plan catch on to the fact they are paying for both plan they will switch to the government plan. Why would anyone want to pay for two plans and only receive benefits from one?

It won’t take long and the goal will be achieved. If you don’t understand the goal by now all I can say is I hope you like SOCIALIZED HEATH CARE…….

Given enough rope we will hang ourselves.

oracle1
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:06 AM EST
reply to: Hal Dufuss
re:
"What you see is following forty years of conservative incompetence and abuse. Look at the space race, the Cold War, WWII"

Hal, buddy, you need some new meds at the funny farm! You are currently TOTALLY delusional!

We did not ask for WWII OR the cold war, but
we WON both!.."

Do you know the entire US economy was nationalized for WWII. The Cold War was won without a shot by the government wisely playing its cards correctly

"... Winning WWII pulled us out of the Depression, which had been protracted by FDR's misguided guvment "solutions." (unemployment was UNCHANGED 6 years into the New Deal, as Morgathau ruefully confessed)."

WWII actually proved that FDR was doing too little and then he tried to cut back on government spending too early but still recall when they started unemployment was over 20%.

THE GOAL w/corrections


There’s a real plan in Obama’s approach to health care. While his plan is obvious to me it seems like it’s not getting much attention from others.

You will have the choice of keeping your existing insurance or taking the government plan. That means if you keep your private plan you get to pay for your plan AND to pay, though taxes, for the government plan.

As soon as those that chose to keep their plan catch on to the fact they are paying for both plan they will switch to the government plan. Why would anyone want to pay for two plans and only receive benefits from one?

It won’t take long and the goal will be achieved. If you don’t understand the goal by now all I can say is I hope you like SOCIALIZED HEATH CARE…….

Given enough rope we will hang ourselves.

Rob
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:07 AM EST
Hey Hal
What did you fly in the military?"

Primarily F-4 Phantoms but have time in everything from T-38's to the British Tornado

$.02
The health care “crisis” is no crisis at all in terms of care, but a crisis in terms of the cost of insurance. The whole mess could be eliminated if the insurance aspect were done away with. When one carries insurance, the cost of care is not considered, but when one pays directly out of pocket for care, one is more considerate as to the cost.

Free market principals would drive down the cost of care in quite short order. People wouldn’t be visiting their doctors simply to get a day off work if they had to pay the tab out of pocket. Stubbed toes and runny noses as well would be easily endured if the associated cost were immediate and personal. As well, if doctors had to compete for patients rather than simply bill insurance companies, costs would come down as well, or they’d go out of business.


Beware what ou ask for -
For all you folks that want someone else to pay for your health care, the government, also known as your neighbors, just look at all the wonderful successes our government has produced in the past:

The war on poverty - trillions spent, still just as much poverty as when it started.
The Great Society - see above, just more spending.
Social Security - Overcharged taxpayers for the past 50 years, spent the excess, now broke.
The war on Drugs - $80 billion a year, an utter failure, but we keep spending.
The Post Office - Increases in rates every year, now bankrupt.
Amtrak - Great for the beltway riders, subsidized transportation at taxpayers expense.
The boarder fence - Where did the money go? We still don’t have a fence.
T.A.R.P - Again, where did the money go? No one knows, or wont say!
Fannie & Freddie - What a great gov. run success huh?
And last but not at all the least - Global Warming and our energy policy(or lack of same.) In this they are just getting started.

I have asked my Senators to enlighten me of ANY success stories, of any gov. policy or undertaking that resulted in an efficient use of taxpayers monies, and actually succeeded as planed, they have not done so to date.

I don’t consider the space program to be a success, to many deaths, and could have been handled by the private sector with far less cost. IMHO.

Hal Donahue
I won't copy that long nonsense you wrote, but

Social Security was invented by FDR. In '65 Johnson and his Democratic congress needed to pay for the experiment, so they brought it into the general fund. It had been it's own fund as FDR intended until the liberals needed to pay for their Utopia. They also foisted medicare and welfare upon us.

Along comes Carter and he decides immigrants 65 and older should get social security. So you live in your home country until 65, buy a one way ticket to America and start collecting a check. Never putting a dime into it.

In 2004 when Bush and Congress put forth ideas to reform SS, it was blocked by the Democrats, who have yet to put forth a plan to address any of these looming bankruptcies.

I could go on, but you will never see the failure of liberalism. The ideology of idiocy.

Ponzi scheme
The problem with Ponzi schemes, is they always fail. Eventually you always have more dividends being paid out versus investors paying in, and so it collapses.
We convict and incarcerate people for running them. Why do Americans think it is all right for the government to run them?
HELLO?
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security are all Ponzi schemes, and next up is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all, National health care. Why do you think they are all broke? Add into the fact that the government can't even deliver mail without going broke, and you have the makings of the biggest economic collapse in the world, the U.S. economic engine the rest of world is depending on, not to mention Americans.
All of these schemes are in direct violation of the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution.

You Conservatives had better start getting involved in all local government and gatherings such as tea parties or you can kiss this country as we know it good-bye.
Now is not the time to be idle on the sidelines watching other people do all the work and doing nothing more than bi!ching about it on a blog.

Star Parker
I am nearly 66 years old. I will retire in 3
months. I just had heart surgery. It was a
rather routine bypass. It cost $118,000 just
for the hospital stuff. Not the doctors,
not the therapy, not the home care, nothing
beyond the hospital bill.

Were it not for medicare and its supplementals
what sort of insurance do you think I could buy
when I am no longer working? The answer is
virtually none, and the answer is None at all if I had very little money.

The cost of the medical procedure is obscene
and the fact that after one visit to a
hospital in 30 years can cut me off from
further insurance is also obscene.

I wish there was some other answer, but the
rest of the world has already discovered that
nationalizing health care is the only answer
and I hope we have the guts to accept that
answer also.

Government health care
Those of you who are railing against "government-controlled" health care are not recognizing that health care is controlled MASSIVELY now in the US by the private health insurance industry. This is a BAD thing because their sole reason for existence is to MAKE A PROFIT for their CEOs and shareholders, NOT to provide health care. THey provide as LITTLE as they can get away with.

They are trying to convince Congress with their powerful lobbies that now they have changed their tune and they are going to work with Congress to shape a new health care system. Don't believe a word of it. Does a leopard change his spots??? NO!!! They even reneged almost immediately to the promise they made to reduce costs by a couple of million. This was a smokescreen. THey meant no such thing. There was no accountability, no details.

Contact your Senators and Congressperson and DEMAND that they listen to the people for a change, NOT the lobbyists. http://www.congressmerge.com/onlinedb/index.htm
or http://www.votesmart/org.

Freedom Is Always The Best Policy
Back in the early-mid 1990s a new procedure called LASIK made it possible to correct vision problems that allowed people to live without glasses or contact lenses. It came with a price. The cost was in the $3,000 range. Of course, most insurance plans did not cover the procedure so people paid out of their own pockets.

Soon, dueling optometrists were competing for business. The prices began dropping. Today, the procedure costs less than $1,000. Competition in the market place works. You would find similar priced reductions for many types of plastic surgeries.

Of course, many medical procedures and situations do not allow for that type of competition. But, health insurance suppliers should have the flexibility to compete with different types of coverage. Currently, state and federal regulations limit the level of competition in the insurance marketplace.

Sixty-somethings should not have to carry mandatory coverage for AIDS and pregnancy care. Twenty-somethings should not be forced to carry care for Alzheimer's disease and osteoporosis. Flexibility in coverage would act as a price control.

edgycater.blogspot.com

Rob
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:26 AM EST
Hal Donahue
I won't copy that long nonsense you wrote, but

Social Security was invented by FDR. In '65 Johnson and his Democratic congress needed to pay for the experiment, so they brought it into the general fund. It had been it's own fund as FDR intended until the liberals needed to pay for their Utopia. They also foisted medicare and welfare upon us..."

You are correct here but as you folks like to point out conservatives kept the practice up. Ronnie and all since could have ended the practise they did not. Medicare seems to be working fine but needs more funding ask the American people. Welfare in my opinion is not high enough to let people get off welfare.

"...Along comes Carter and he decides immigrants 65 and older should get social security. So you live in your home country until 65, buy a one way ticket to America and start collecting a check. Never putting a dime into it."

If this is a good deal we would be flooded by OLD immigrants we are not

"...In 2004 when Bush and Congress put forth ideas to reform SS, it was blocked by the Democrats, who have yet to put forth a plan to address any of these looming bankruptcies..."

This too shall come but golly imagine if the failed bush regime had privatized social security...the effect would be to accelerate an economic downturn

"...I could go on, but you will never see the failure of liberalism. The ideology of idiocy."

Liberalism is far from always correct and Carter is the second worst president (GW is hands down the worst) in recent US history. The problem isn't with liberals who have been out of power but with conservatives unable to govern

twisting and conflating facts
re:
"Do you know the entire US economy was nationalized for WWII. The Cold War was won without a shot by the government wisely playing its cards correctly"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Some truth serum...

The cold war actually became a war of competing systems of guvment and economies-- which WE won in overwhelming fashion. Key reasons why the Soviets gave up were that their ability to produce either guns OR butter simply PALED next to ours... a relative handful of farms here could produce more than their whole harvest.

As for nationalizing commerce in WWII, all the guvment did was contract with Henry Ford, et al, to stoke our marvelous, natural, free enterprise competitive productive engine... if the guvment had done like the Soviets, we could not have cranked out ships and tanks in the stunning fashion that we did... and our equipment actually worked!

Ironically, the much-dreaded nukes prevented real armed conflict between the Cold Warriors.

RodT
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:22 AM EST
Beware what ou ask for -...I have asked my Senators to enlighten me of ANY success stories, of any gov. policy or undertaking that resulted in an efficient use of taxpayers monies, and actually succeeded as planed, they have not done so to date. "

Just one example is the WWII GI bill

Tammy and foxyloxy
Didn't you read the article? And it is verifiable. The reason health care is so obscene in it's cost, is because of the government involvement.
You Liberals just live in your own virtual world, don't you?

Hey, Rob, read before you open yourmouth

Belly crawling race-baiter response
Glenn: And the posts always leads to the demonization of minorities.

I believe the quote was 'an additional 100 million people.' There was no reference to race.

But you, a belly-crawling race-baiter, had to take it there.

REPLY:

The operative word is "amnesty", that you conveniently omitted. If you had read the entire post, you would have seen that it very much blames immigrants (what could THAT mean) for our healthcare woes.

A Memorial to my Family Members

At my insistence, my Siblings and their Spouses wrote their autobiography. Here is a sentence or two from two of my Sisters husband’s, my three brothers, and a comment about my service of the USA.

Two of them fought throughout the South Pacific War, New Guiana, Philippines, Saipan, Iwo Jima and more. Two fought in North Africa, Normandy, Battle of the Bulge, and Mt Cassino in Italy.

Brother-in- law Harold (Army in South Pacific) === “Later on I had the good fortune of being a guard at General Homma’s and General Yomasheitia's trials. I saw them both convicted of war crimes.”

Brother Paul (Army, From Normandy to Battle of the Bulge) === “I think it was sometime in early March they had a special company meeting and presented me with the Bronze Star Medal.”

Brother Jesse (Naval Officer in the Pacific) === “We sunk two small ships at Iwo Jima, one in the East Boat Basin. Christmas night the Japanese retaliated.”.

Brother-in-law Gus (Army in N. Africa, then to Naples and Mt. Cassino, and more) === “We battled up to Cassino. This place set on top of a mountain the Germans could look down on us. There was quite a battle before we took it.”

Brother John (Merchant Marine, Army) === "In the Merchant Marine, taking supplies and troops from New York to Le Havre, France, then in the Army."

Brother Jim - me - (Ohio State Guard, Merchant Marine, Army twice ) === “In 1951, I was a secret spy for the FBI, looking for members of the Julius and Ethel Rosenberg spy ring.”

Trivia -Brother John joined the Army in 1946, he wanted to earn the GI Bill of Rights, to pay for College. I met him there, the Army man said, “Why don’t you go with him?” So I did. I never went back to milk the cows that night.

I spent my 18th birthday on a troop ship in the harbor at Singapore.

I was in the Ohio State Guard Band at age 16.. Most Band Members were in their 70’s, so some of us averaged a legal age for the State Guard.

Health care system is broken, Bobbo
ROB:Anybody who thinks
government can run anything effectively just needs to look around.

REPLY:
What I see is Social Security and Medicare working quite well, no thanks to corrupt conservatives who try to sabotage it.

to 08hayabusa
Yes, I read the article (duh!) and I disagree with it because it is untrue. The reason for the massive costs of health care in the US is the PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY. Fully a third of health care costs we pay do not go toward providing us health care; they are wasted in the mostrosity that is the PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY

Every other country pays half or less per capita in health care expenses, and the proportion of GDP is also much less in every other country. Thirty-eight other countries also have better health outcomes than us by every statistically measurable criterion.

So, the answer is to GET RID of the entire PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY. Other countries don't have enough money in their systems, but they have a good system. Here it is just the opposite.

small comfort, that!
re:

Beware what you ask for...I have asked my Senators to enlighten me of ANY success stories, of any gov. policy or undertaking that resulted in an efficient use of taxpayers monies, and actually succeeded as planed, they have not done so to date.

retort:
Just one example is the WWII GI bill

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That was 60 years ago... it had solid success becuase it facilitated home purchases in a responsible way, UNLIKE the guvment's recent insistence on sub-prime lending, which CAUSED the recent economic collapse.

oracle1
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:43 AM EST
twisting and conflating facts
re:
"Do you know the entire US economy was nationalized for WWII. The Cold War was won without a shot by the government wisely playing its cards correctly"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Some truth serum...

The cold war actually became a war of competing systems of guvment and economies-- which WE won in overwhelming fashion. Key reasons why the Soviets gave up were that their ability to produce either guns OR butter simply PALED next to ours... a relative handful of farms here could produce more than their whole harvest."

True but what is your point? It certainly was not due to reaganism/hooverism laissez faire capitalism which has worked no where in history

"...As for nationalizing commerce in WWII, all the guvment did was contract with Henry Ford, et al, to stoke our marvelous, natural, free enterprise competitive productive engine... if the guvment had done like the Soviets, we could not have cranked out ships and tanks in the stunning fashion that we did... and our equipment actually worked!"

LMAO we were NATIONALIZED before Hitler Gernmany and every aspect of the economy was regualted from Washington that was how we produced a ship a day. Deny all you like but from the way you wrote what you did it seems you know the truth

"...Ironically, the much-dreaded nukes prevented real armed conflict between the Cold Warriors."

Korea and Vietnam were real battles in the Cold War if perchance you did not notice. Nukes did much to prevent conflict yet under Reagan, neocons in the Pentagon were advocating that the US could "win the Cold War" with a surprise nuclear attack. Yes, many of the same folks that started the Iraq war of choice

We have learned to reward failure
It would be easy to list dozens of government programs that not only do not work, but als have become elephants in the living room. Whenever a government program does not work (pardon the redundancy), the liberal answers with: "It needs more money." We pour endless amounts of money into a failing system (i.e., we reward failure) and we get a bigger failing system.

The most recent horrendous and harmful example of rewarding failure is the 2008 reelection of the Democratic Congress. They were sent back to office with a 9% approval rating.

Capitalism works precisely because it does NOT reward failure. The United States rose in power, influence, and standard of living for all of its citizens because failing ideas were scrapped and replaced with ideas that worked. Individual incentive works. Witness the school classroom. Students work hard and are rewarded with good grades. They sleep in class, daydream, or draw pictures on a piece of paper and they generally do not get good grades.

What incentive is included in a handout? There is none. It's not rocket science. Our President, however, has not yet learned this simple axiom.

The Tangled Web
Lawyers made lots of money by legislating to allow frivoulous law suits against doctors. Then malpractice insurance professionals made loads of money extorting doctors through enforcing outrageously high premiums. Therefore, doctors costs rose, and so did health insurance premiums. Do I see a pattern here? Maybe the AMA ought to publically voice the abuses they have suffered. MAYBE WE SHOULD APPRECIATE THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY INSTEAD OF RUNNING THEM OUT OF BUSINESS.

Jim
I wish to say thank you to you and your family for the Patriotic service to our great nation.


I know I'm repeating, but Bob won't read
BOB: I could go on, but you will never see the failure of liberalism. The ideology of idiocy.

REPLY:

Conservatives destroyed out economy, bubblehead. Your policies ("not me, I'm no Bushie") led to this mess, and now you will not take personal responsibility for it, although you guys sure preach it.

America supports the systems you rant against. Get over it. Just be prepared to pay for it, like I had to pay for an your little war and Republican pork.

foxyloxy
You people just don't it do you. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I don't care what you are selling in a free market, be it health care, or HD televisions, once competition from competitors get into the act, prices come down, don't they?

Hello?

Glenn
This never goes away does it Glenn? I see this needs to be re-posted.

These videos are UNDENIABLE PROOF, in living color, right out of the guilty Party's mouth, that years ago, Republicans tried to prevent the Banking Crisis. They show Democrats fighting to block Republican efforts and prevent regulation. Barney Frank had oversight of Freddy & Fanny.

http://barackswhitelies.blogspot.com/2008/10/oreilly-gets-f rank.html

Another video from 2004;
http://vodpod.com/watch/1038839-dems-refuse-to-reform-fredd ie-fannie-in-2004-video

Three more videos;
http://www.mediacircus.com/2008/09/government-engineered-mo rtgage-crisis-no-racism-here-move-along/

Near the end of this video, Bill Clinton admits Democrats are to blame for the Bank Crisis.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/09/memory_lane_lyn ching_franklin.html

Make you wonder what more important things Henry Waxman's, (D), Oversight Committee was doing?
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/where_was_congr essmans_henry_w.html

The banking crisis was deliberately planned as a campaign strategy.
Even McCain tried to prevent it!
http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/john-mccains- 2006-warning-about-todays-financial-crisis

Notice how Obama is among those who blocked McCain's efforts;
http://obamawtf.blogspot.com/2008/09/mccain-tried-to-pass-2 005-law-to-fix.html

Obama was instrumental in causing the Bank Crisis.
http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/10/sleeper-cell-ac orn-obama-and-the-housing-crisis/


And this is WHY!
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the _strategy.html

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/15/the-cloward-piv en-strategy/

Chuck Schumer triggered the run on banks at the opportune time;
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/07/feds-cite-sc hum.html

What about a free war?
08hayabusa:You people just don't it do you. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

REPLY:

So easy to attack a straw man.

What now, a dictatorship for neocons?
08hayabusa:

So Republican control of the country--the Presidency, Congress, and the Supreme Court for 6 years was nothing? Accept some responsibility, for goodness' sakes.

G.I. Bill? Where ELSE a success?
The other key thing that the G.I. Bill did was pay for college educations for vets. Historically, that has ALSO been in guvment's interest, because it significantly increases earnings potential and thus tax sources (income and consumption).

In other words, G.I. bill spending truly WAS an investment in America's future... but again, the thrust and impetus of the G.I. bill was over 60 years ago!

But this is a significant point--> WHERE ELSE can you point to a guvment social program which has had a good bang for the buck?

It is SOOOOO MUCH easier to cite the GLARING failures, like the Great Society welfare spending... and Medicare is the most corrupt, fraud-ridden program the guvment sullies per the GAO.

Notwithstanding the braying by some on the left here, the cost of health care began to soar WHEN the guvment got involved with Medicare/Mediaid... and guvment is ALREADY involved in half of all claims!

To say that we need MORE guvment interference in health care is like saying the alcoholic needs to switch to heroine to get off the booze!

Glenn
That war in Iraq that was overwhelmingly approved by Congress that you Liberals were screaming cost so much, one billion dollars a month pales in comparison to the projected 1.85 trillion dollar deficit Obama just ran up in his first hundred days.

That war in Iraq could go on for 83.3 years for one trillion dollars.

Get a life!

For starters....
Oracle 1:G.I. Bill? Where ELSE a success?

REPLY: Social Security, Medicare, Head Start, Upward Bound, Unemployment Insurance, Pell Grants, Workers Compensation for on-the-job injuries, National Defense Student Loans, Environmental Protection--all worthy programs still supported by America.

oracle1
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:57 AM EST
small comfort, that!
re:

Beware what you ask for...I have asked my Senators to enlighten me of ANY success stories, of any gov. policy or undertaking that resulted in an efficient use of taxpayers monies, and actually succeeded as planed, they have not done so to date.

retort:
Just one example is the WWII GI bill

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That was 60 years ago... it had solid success becuase it facilitated home purchases in a responsible way, UNLIKE the guvment's recent insistence on sub-prime lending, which CAUSED the recent economic collapse."

LMAO it also paid people to get educations and then paid for those educations. The program idea continues for these war veterans today.

Accept responsibility for the economic collapse! You claimed responsibility for creating the largest numbers of homeowners in US history in the 04 election - you can't have it both ways

The TRUTH--
about Healthcare is that we, with Insurance, are Charged 4X as much as we should be, to PAY for the LEECHES, who spend ALL their Cash on DOPE, Booze-[whatever else they want]and go to the ER for FREE. The working man with Insurance,Hesitates to go to the Doctor, unless he's REALLY SICK,-- cuz of CO-PAYS and DE-Freakin'-Ductables that are Draconian!!! Again to subsidize the POOR, who, have Wide Screens, 4 wheelers, Cell Phones, Latest Fashion Clothing [all the Toys]. They Choose NOT to buy Insurance. The fact of the matter is, Illegal Aliens get EVERYTHING for FREE,[or so close to free, that it doesn't matter] AND, [for the most part] Don't Pay TAXES. The word in Spanish is SANGANOS [Leech, Bloodsucker], in English. {Y para todos de [Vds.] Cabrones que piensan Yo soy un Ladron que no me gusto Latinos,-- ?Porque puedo hablar/escribir/leer en Espanol??} The people who receive the most benefit of our System, Pay the Least, or, Nothing. The fact that they are[mostly] Illegals, and Minorities, is the Truth. PC is NOT the TRUTH. Nothing will CHANGE for the People who are Already PAYING for Insurance, and Nothing will CHANGE for those who are NOT. The only thing that will Change, is the P.T.B. [Govt.] will make the Decision as to Who Gets, and Who Doesn't Get--In other words, Who LIVES, and Who DIES. With the pending Amnesty, There will be Precious little Health Care to go 'Round. Get ready for the Entire Latin American Population to come to the LAND OF THE FREE--As long as you WEREN'T BORN HERE!! I am a Retired Fl. Correction Officer, who knows, and has dealt with the System and Illegals/Minorities First-hand. [16+yrs.] Even in the Joint, they get the BEST health care available FREE. WHAT has the Fed.or State Govt. Given YOU Free Lately?? AND It's Gonna get WORSE!!

Short memory
08hayabusa:

Do you mean the bailout that was proposed by Bush as an emergency measure to Congress and championed by McCain to the point of interrupting his campaign? That deficit?

re: Nanny State!!!
Look, I am a Vet and I have had 7 surgeries on one leg-yes 7, and the leg is still not right, and some of the procedures they are refusing to pay for!!! Botched leg surgeries to say the least, and I think you will agree!!! And every visit is marked with long lines and long waits and even then the doctor you see will be a intern!!! So, this is what you will have with this nationalized health care and those that will have really serious conditions will face total quackery!!! And this Clown wants to insure the 14 million illegals that are in this country!!! So does'nt this sound like real fun cubbies???? Get ready because this is what you are looking at for health care if this Idiot(ClownBama) has his way!!!

Glenn
Glenn Location: KY
Reply # 98
Date: May 25, 2009 - 12:13 PM EST
What now, a dictatorship for neocons?
08hayabusa:

So Republican control of the country--the Presidency, Congress, and the Supreme Court for 6 years was nothing? Accept some responsibility, for goodness' sakes.
===============================================

Republicans did not have a filibuster proof Congress as noted in the Democrats refusing to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the videos. Nobody is saying we don't have screwed up Republicans. Bush starting that bailout is proof of that. McCain trying to grant amnesty to 20 million illegals is another example.

ropati has a point
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 11:58 AM EST
We have learned to reward failure...Capitalism works precisely because it does NOT reward failure. The United States rose in power, influence, and standard of living for all of its citizens because failing ideas were scrapped and replaced with ideas that worked..."

This is a great point and explains the failure of conservatism. They refused to admit when things worked and were unable to compromise to make them work and intimately were unable to govern. The conservatives conducted business and government based upon cronyism nor results.

"...What incentive is included in a handout?.."

Effective investment in people gives them the tools and meaning to be much more productive.

competition does not work in health care
08hayabusa, competition has been shown NOT to work in the delivery of health care in this country for most of the 20th century. That is why we have had such poor outcomes. Medical care is not a commodity like a widget that follows the usual laws of supply and demand. It perversely acts contrary to the laws of supply and demand.

A good example of this is that we have an oversupply of certain specialists in certain areas. Supply and demand would normally dictate that this should drive their prices down. Just the opposite happens. The more specialists, the more their prices shoot up.

As lilly points out above, HSAs are discouraging visits to the doctor. This is the aim of the HSA. It is supposed to eliminate visits that are considered "frivolous". Give me a break. How does a patient know whether a visit is going to turn out what you might call "frivolous"? THat is why you go to the doctor in the first place, to find out WHAT is wrong. HELLO!!! And how many people enjoy passing the time of day in a doctor's office? That is enough of a disincentive.

No, patients with HSAs have a disincentive to go, even when they SHOULD. It is as if they had no insurance for the first few thousands of expenses. There is no mechanism with an HSA to ensure that those enrolees get proper preventative care.

Also, we are not privy to the kind of information we need to even make informed decisions. When did you see a price list in a doctor's office? When were you supplied with statistics on that particular doctor's success rates?

Glenn
Glenn Location: KY
Reply # 104
Date: May 25, 2009 - 12:26 PM EST
Short memory
08hayabusa:

Do you mean the bailout that was proposed by Bush as an emergency measure to Congress and championed by McCain to the point of interrupting his campaign? That deficit?
==============================================

Six hundred billion is a far cry from 1.85 trillion dollar deficit, and were you people ever screaming DEFICIT. Only to turn around and double it.

robert
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 12:28 PM EST
re: Nanny State!!!
Look, I am a Vet and I have had 7 surgeries on one leg-yes 7, and the leg is still not right, and some of the procedures they are refusing to pay for!!! Botched leg surgeries to say the least, and I think you will agree!!! And every visit is marked with long lines and long waits and even then the doctor you see will be a intern!!!..."

Really??? Want help clearing the situation up? I am happy to help in confidence of course. What have you done to complain and get your situation addressed?


"... And this Clown wants to insure the 14 million illegals that are in this country!!! So does'nt this sound like real fun cubbies???? Get ready because this is what you are looking at for health care if this Idiot(ClownBama) has his way!!!"

Ahhhh you are just complaining and prejudiced I see. Guess what now that companies are not hiring them the illegals are leaving. I hope we can keep quite a few as legal though they have a great work ethic

you cannot debate a gadfly!
re:

factual premise:
As for nationalizing commerce in WWII, all the guvment did was contract with Henry Ford, et al, to stoke our marvelous, natural, free enterprise competitive productive engine... if the guvment had done like the Soviets, we could not have cranked out ships and tanks in the stunning fashion that we did... and our equipment actually worked!

Halitosis retort:
"LMAO we were NATIONALIZED before Hitler Germany and every aspect of the economy was regulated from Washington that was how we produced a ship a day. Deny all you like but from the way you wrote what you did it seems you know the truth"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hal Dufass has a SHAMEFUL disregard for known facts... he is entitled to his own opinions, however deranged, but NOT entitled to his own facts... as RR opined, facts are stubborn things! Indeed!


oracle1
In regards to how much MDs should make, I say let the market determine that. Really do you think that all these professionals will price themselves out of work? There are also the articial causes of costs that need to be considered, for instance how great of an impact does our legal system have on costs?
I take a very macroscopic view, and tend to try and connect all the dots. I say that because I wonder just how much wealthier the average citizen would be in the US if we weren't giving away so much to other countries, if we didn't have 130 or so military bases overseas, if we didn't give money to balck holes like ACORN?
If we didn't suffer so much from maladministration and government overreach every citizen would have more resources to invest and to spend on health care. We would also have more to give charitably to help those in need, and it would be done with more wisdom and true compassion, not government bureaucracy that is about numbers and is removed from those that need help.

foxyloxy
The problem is that health care has never truly been a free enterprise because of government interference with the Medicare and Medicaid and the fact that it's mostly regulated instate and little businesses are not allowed to poll their money into groups effectively.

For instance, I buy my motorcycle insurance for my 08 Hayabusa from Progressive which is located in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I cannot buy my Blue Cross Blue Shield out of Arizona even though hypothetically Michigan might offer a better price.

no real competition in health care
There are various reasons for this problem:

1) We really have an oligopoly among M Deities... nobody REALLY price shops

2) The production of M. Deities is limited by them to assure less real competition

3) local area experiments where patients negotiate with and pay doctors directly without involving 3rd party payers-- especially the guvment-- have demonstrated HUGE cost savings and greater patient and physician satisfaction, largely due to FAR less red tape.

4) M. Deities have a herd mentality due to group think... they all fear the lawsuits (not without justification), so they call for FAR too many pricey procedures to CYA

dufass-the-obsessed writes: "Carter is

the second worst president (GW is hands down the worst) in recent US history."

That obsession (or is it possession?) has done major damage to your two brain cells, hasm't it?

YOUR Obozo has already proven to be the worst pres... and he's done it in less than 100 days..



Anne
Get em Anne. You always make me smile :-).

hal @ 11:04
First let me say this, I know that you are a liar and often misrepresent yourself here, but I will nonetheless reply.
Ok you basically gave a lot of gibberish that really didn't say anything. If you were truly so accomplished I doubt that would be so lacking in communication skills and simple logic.
As for why am I alive? You in your logic denied God and then asked me such a question? If there is no God, no eternal life, then nothing in this world matters. One could feed a thousand poor people, or just as well gun them down. The result is the same, they all die, they cease to exist, nothing changes.
When one does believe in God, that one believes himself accountable to Him to do good and associates with others and both individually and through those associations does good, with an eternal perspective. That means that I realize that the most important thing is one's soul, and yes I will reach out to others to help so that God's love may be realized.
I do reject a government that has no covenant with God attempting to force others to do merely what other men are defining as good. Although many have said this before, it is funny how many are so willing to vote to use other people's money to do what they should be doing. If so many were really so concerned, why not start organizations for the purpose of helping people. I see it as a big copout whereby people can say the government is helping people, thus assuaging their guilt over the state of man.

Dem response will be predictable
Rather than debate the merits of these ideas, the Dems will dismiss them as "tired old ideas that don't work". Just like they did with the Republican stimulus plan alternative. They will go on spending money, increasing the size of government, and driving the U.S. into bankruptcy. I have yet to hear a single Dem leader say how all of this is going to get paid for.

reply to: Lenard
re:
In regards to how much MDs should make, I say let the market determine that. Really do you think that all these professionals will price themselves out of work?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I now teach college econ and grew up living with a surgeon... honestly, they are not sophisticated about pricing their services, and darn sure do not realize that they are killing the golden goose-- we CANNOT curb health care costs without also reducing physician compensation.

Can you really remember seeing a physician making a mere $100k a year? That is about TWICE what the average private worker earns,, BUT the AVERAGE for M. Deities is > $200k per year. My cousin the cardiologist makes several times THAT-- no one person providing a service can be worth that (actually pays himself NET about $100,000-- a MONTH!)!

Please see my post at 12:53 for some endemic problems with health care costs.

08hayabusa: :-)The other night you asked

who doofass was? It's ol' Hal Donahue. HA HA HA


God
I always find it amusing that people who deny the existence of God also find fault with the principles and morals attributed to God.

Could this be the real reason they deny him, so as not having to obey?

What is wrong with, do not murder? Or rape, or extort, or steal. Or how about adultery, or no fault divorce. Anyone with common sense cannot argue against these principles.

Please show me anything in the bible that isn't for your own good and the welfare of your families and your children. Otherwise your arguments are moot.


Anne
I thought so but I wasn't sure.

It Is Really Simple
If you do not pay for something out of your own pocket but someone else is paying for it, you do not care how much it cost. Because you do not really care how much it cost, you will use the service. And therefore, you have no effective means to control costs. Prices are determined by the willingness of you and I to buy the product or use the service. When the price is too high, we make the decision not to spend the money on something we think is too expensive. But that does not happen, when we do not use our own money to buy that product or use that service.

oracle
If you think surgeons are not 'sophisticated about pricing their services', you must have a field day describing the UAW and 'Giveafinger'. When standing on an assembly line and putting in a few screws entitles a worker to wages, wages when not working, big retirements, and huge medical care the whole way along with other perks, I think surgeons (my father was one) severely undercharge. Further, at least surgeons don't belong to groups of thugs and kill others over competition.

Then there are the teachers who unionized and took teaching out of their responsibilities.

You teach college economics? Sheesh...

Yessir, Hal Donahue!
TH's iconoclastic resident liberal gadfly, here to enervate any sane discussion with PC drivel and pro-guvment claptrap!

He can fabricate facts and attempt to distort reality with the best of his friends over at Daily Kos and Huffington Post!

Truthspeak indeed!

oracle1
First let me say, as I already have, that no man is entitled to the fruits of another man's labors. Any attempts by government to set prices is a violation of a man's right to life, liberty, and property/fruits of labor.
If your cardiologist is able to pay himself so well then to me obviously he has a market willing to pay for his services. It's like teachers and pro athletes. Teachers are a dime a dozen, thus no need for high salaries, pro athletes that can bring in revenue are not. What right do I or anyone else have to deny one to the fruits of their labors?
Again I will look to the market to correct any problems in affordable health care, but not because I or anyone else want it to be so, or have something for free. If too many doctors overcharge, then someone will come along and outcompete them. This is why we have HMO's and such. People are all too willing to complain when things go wrong,even in customer service, but rarely is there thankfulness for the care that one is recieving that is so beneficial.

reply to: Summers
You misunderstand... I think school teachers and UAW workers are ALSO overpaid:

recent post:

Personally, I think that American CEO's ARE overpaid, and it is embarrassing to screw up as some do and still get megabucks.

HOWEVER, it is NOT CEO pay that laid waste to the Big 3 auto companies... instead, union largess/greed has ruined them.

Last year Toyota and GM sold the same # of cars-- Toyota made billions while GM hemorrhaged billions. The difference? Labor at GM was twice as expensive-- $150,000 per year counting bennies for H.S. grads. Yet they line up for those jobs at Toyota here in America paying half as much.

I teach college econ-- you CANNOT make the numbers work with that kind of labor cost structure. We have effectively subsidized the Big 3 for years, and even Toyota's really cost more than they might/should because of the minimally-competitive oligopoly.

about school teachers and unions

guvment jobs now the union stronghold
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed040108c.cfm

excerpt:
The one sector where unions remain relevant is the government. Almost half of all union members now work in the public sector. The typical union member today works for the DMV, not on the assembly line.

Unions fit more comfortably into government workplaces than in the private sector. Government employees are used to bureaucracy that does little to reward individual initiative. AND THE GOVERNMENT FACES NO COMPETITION.

The state of Virginia won't go bankrupt, no matter how much public-sector unions ask for in wages. The state can just raise taxes on everyone else. It's no accident that the typical government employee earns substantially more than an equivalently skilled private-sector worker. Whether it is fair that government unions push for higher taxes to pay their inflated salaries is another question.

The upshot is that unions today have little to offer workers outside of government.

more about unions and guvment

The ONLY area where unions have not waned in influence is among guvment workers-- now about half of all union members. A good argument can be made that it should be ILLEGAL for those paid solely by taxes to unionize.

In any case, per the BLS, federal guvment workers now average $72k-- TWICE what private workers make! And state and local guvment workers make 40% more than private workers-- and the gap is widening rapidly, mainly because industry is cutting back on burdensome, expensive benefits while guvment simply foists them onto taxpayers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/05/12/business/econwatch/ entry5007862.shtml
http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2009-04-09-compensa tion_N.htm

Mexifornia is indeed a harbinger of things to come as the ObaMessiah and the Left spends and taxes America into the fiscally dysfunctional guvment that Mexifornia already is.

Mexifornia is effectively B/R... now the feds will subsidize Mexifornia's state workers with YOUR tax $-- feel better?

Shallow Hal
As to illegals, you say 'I hope we can keep a few though as legal as they have a great work ethic.'

That is the biggest, most unsupportable piece of crap I have seen on TH in a while; and, that is a large measure. That ranks right there, in the lie category, with 'They do jobs Americans won't do.' How about the plant in Bellingham, Washington, where 28 illegals were rounded up and 140 citizens applied for the jobs they vacated?

Illegals disproportionally take government money, don't pay taxes, commit crimes, cause higher bills for education and spread diseases more than our citizens and legals. They have taken over jobs our teens used to have in the summers, which now our unemployed need. I believe in Eisenhower's solution to our illegal population. http://www.usillegalaliens.com

Lenard
"Date: May 25, 2009 - 1:04 PM EST
hal @ 11:04
First let me say this, I know that you are a liar and often misrepresent yourself here, but I will nonetheless reply..."

LOL Oh really? Not one word I said was a lie plain and simple.

"...When one does believe in God, that one believes himself accountable to Him to do good and associates with others and both individually and through those associations does good,.."

You really are sad. The ONLY reason you "behave and help the poor and down trodden" is because someone or thing will hold you accountable? Do you NEED someone outside yourself to justify your existence?

"...Although many have said this before, it is funny how many are so willing to vote to use other people's money to do what they should be doing. If so many were really so concerned, why not start organizations for the purpose of helping people.