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Monday, January 05, 2009
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Rick Warren is no Billy Graham
by Star Parker
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Last August I wrote a column critical of Rick Warren's decision to host a presidential candidate forum at his Saddleback Church.

My reasoning then was that America's crisis is moral ambiguity. I argued that Pastor Warren would only contribute to this ambiguity by hosting candidates with opposing views on issues such as abortion and homosexuality and presenting himself as a neutral moderator.

Only Barack Obama would gain, I felt, being showcased as an acceptable candidate by one of the nation's best known evangelical pastors. If John McCain had wanted to clarify his social conservative credentials, he didn't need to go to Rick Warren's church with Barack Obama to do it.

Evangelicals and other Christians listened as Rick Warren called Obama and McCain "friends" and "patriots" and watched as Warren winced no more than would have Larry King when Sen. Obama said it was above his "pay grade" to consider if and when an unborn child has human rights.

Evangelicals had already been hearing from Warren, and left-leaning pastors like Jim Wallis, that they should broaden their primary concerns beyond sex and abortion.

In retrospect, I cannot prove that I was right. But I think the evidence powerfully supports my claim.

Barack Obama picked up five percentage points of the evangelical vote over what John Kerry received in 2004. Those five percentage points amounted to about a third of Obama's winning vote margin over John McCain.

Sure, the Saddleback Forum alone does not explain this shift. But the legitimacy Obama gained that night certainly didn't hurt.

The largest shift was among 18-29 year old evangelicals. Obama got 32 percent of their vote -- double what John Kerry had gotten.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after the forum, Warren was oblivious to the vulnerability of this group. The Journal reported, "... as for the notion that younger evangelicals are ready for rebellion against their parents' ideals, Mr. Warren cites polls showing that the younger evangelical generation is even more concerned about abortion than the older one." True. But this was only one part of the picture.

In 2007 the Pew Research Center reported that Republican identification among 18-29 year old white evangelicals had dropped from 55 percent in 2005 to 40 percent.

A survey done by Greenburg Quinlan Rosner Research showed that 26 percent of 18-29 year old evangelicals, compared to 9 percent of those over 30, support same-sex marriage.

Now President-elect Obama has invited Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inaugural. The NY Times calls this an "olive branch to conservative Christian evangelicals" and many now call Warren this era's Billy Graham.

An olive branch? Rick Warren helped get Obama elected and our President-Elect understands that there is still evangelical gold to be mined in the pastor from Saddleback Church.

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright can explain how Barack Obama uses pastors. Obama sat in his church for 20 years and used his words for the title of his best-selling book, then discarded him when he became a political liability.

Regarding the Billy Graham comparison, it challenges even the most creative imagination to picture the Rev. Graham's ever hosting a forum for political candidates.

In an interview, Barack Obama recalled a previous invitation to Saddleback Church. "...I was invited to Rick Warren's church to speak, despite his awareness that I held views that were entirely contrary to his when it came to gay and lesbian rights, when it came to issues like abortion." I doubt that Billy Graham would see this in the spirit of his own calling to bring the gospel to all who would listen.

Nor would I see the Rev. Graham signing onto the Evangelical Climate Initiative, as has Rick Warren. This gives Christian cover to the left to raise our energy costs to address still-unsubstantiated environmental claims.

But on global warming, Rick Warren and Barack Obama are on the same page. Perhaps these will be the first post-inaugural chips that our new president will call in.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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I hadn't realized
I hadn't realized that it was the duty of Evangelical pastors to blindly back the GOP. Warren believes that the Bible supports Republican principles in many areas and Democratic principles in some others. Just because he may agree more commonly with the GOP does not mean he should remain silent when he thinks the Republicans are wrong. I don't remember Moses saying to his followers, "Thou shalt not violate Ronald Reagan's eleventh commandment."

Also, for the record, Graham advised Republican and Democratic presidents. He spent the last night of Johnson's administration and the first night of Nixon's in the White House. He spoke at Johnson's funeral and the funeral of Democratic Texas Gov. John Connally. He no doubt had many disagreements with these men, but respected them and was appropriately honored to be included.

YES
I 100% agree. Pro-Life Warren has given Obama credibility that Obama could not get without Warren accepting him as he has. Warren has thus trivialized important issue such as life.

Warren should be outspoken about Obama's extreme pro-abortion record, among other Obama stances. I say "shame on your Rick Warren." Where is his sense of disgust and horror at Obama's record?

Ranger29: The "right wing" isn't losing. Liberals mascarrading as Republicans are losing. Conservatism hasn't really been tried since Reagan.

Party platforms over God?


There is a problem with the premise that the Bible supports either Republican or Democratic principles.

It is either parties' job or intention to support BIBLICAL principles..for the Bible does not change; and neither does God. Whether anyone wants to believe that or not.

And insofar as Rick Warren vs. Billy Graham is concerned; the ONLY thing Billy Graham was ever concerned about is preaching the Gospel and bringing people to a relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. He almost never injected himself into political discourse. Rick Warren tends to bend and twist within the Gospel's mandate..which again, is not his perogative to take as a man of God.

IMO; Rick Warren is more interested these days in selling HIS 40 Days' gospel than selling the Lord's Gospel. And I believe that he used the Saddleback forum to do just that..and I thought it was somewhat shameful.

Partisanship is dangerous
I don't see it as a particular problem.

I believe young evangelicals were caught up in the Obama charisma. All it proves is that young voters are unsophisticated regardless of political persuasion.

Besides, from what I understand McCain wasn't exactly a conservative's dream either. Should Warren not have invited him?

I'm also reminded where Jesus spent a lot of his time on Earth, with conmen, standover merchants (tax collectors) and prostitutes - not exactly the ones being invited to a society tea.

As others have pointed out, there is a risk in US religious conservatives defaulting to the GOP. No single party is going to have everything going for it. It is always going to be a compromise.

The individual has to decide at the ballot box who they believe will govern best for ALL the citizens.

Parker is wrong on this one.

The Rick Warren interviews of McCain and Obama were the best interviews of the two candidates in the two year campaign.

Voters could observe "unfiltered" the strenghts and weaknesses of both candidates. Voters came away with a clear understanding of where the candidates stood on the issues discussed.

To suggest Obama's win was contributed as a result of the Rick Warren interview is perhaps wishful thinking.

We now know the typical Obama voter was not well educated on the issues, did not know where the candidates stood on the issues, and suffered from a serious lack of core knowledge about what the nation faces.

5 or 6 more Rick Warren type interviews may have corrected that situation. Unfortunately the Obama camp opposed that.


Just a couple things...
1) 5 stars to an excellent column (as always)by Star Parker.

2) BO is a liar of THE highest order and should not be validated by ANY social leaders, lest they validate the liars lies. Mr. Warren is great at building church attendance, but he is a leader of what foundational beliefs exactly? Certainly none that can't be compromised for the sake of more church building/book selling.

3) hey ever'one, great job ignoring it! keep up the good work...

Thank you....
The comparisom between Warren and Wright goes deeper than their being used by Obama. They're both purveyors of a social gospel, Wright calls it liberation theology and Warren calls it social justice but it still adds up to support of socialist economics and appeasement of totalitarian regimes packaged in religious language.

Popology is NOT Theology
While Rick Warren undoubtedly will refrain from ranting against Jews in the Oval Office, I would hardly consider him to be in the same mold as Billy Graham when it comes to Biblical interpretation.

When I think of "The Purpose Driven Life", I would shelve it in the Pop-psychology / New Age Spiritualism category.

Impotent Potion No. 29 claims that "the right wing is losing across the board," but fails to explain how Prop. 8 passed with overwhelming support of African-American and Hispanic voters. America is not nearly as liberal as Libtards claim. Take a look at issue polls. Gay Marriage? No. Abortion? Maybe. Immigration? No. Gun Rights? You had better believe it after guns flew off the shelves following the election. Taxes? Yes, but only for thee, not me.

Nora Charles
Forgive me but I think your analogy of Jesus spending time with sinners and Warren spending time with politicians in a political event is seriously flawed.

I think a comparison with Jesus and the Sadducees and Pharisees, particularly in luke 11, would have been more accurate. That, or the cleansing of the temple would have been more representative of the attitude a man of God with true Biblical enlightenment would have demonstrated.

I also don't think holding Billy Graham up as a positive model is very satisfactory. Graham has always subsumed his Biblical principles under his political ones and that, of late, has manifested itself in his complete obliviousness to the Clinton's excesses.

-----

"Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish". - Jesus (Luke 13:3)


Warren
Rick Warren is all about Rick Warren. He's enjoying his 15 minutes of fame. Soon as people begin to see what sort of a shyster he really is, they'll stop paying attention to him and he'll slink back into obscurity.

Kevin from WA

Kevin,

All that might be true about Rick Warren. But I really don't care about his personal views since I am not a member of his church.

I do know the questions he asked were valid. There were no "gotcha" questions. And he allowed the candidates to answer fully. He did not try to dazzle us with his command of the english language as many in the mainstream media do when they ask the questions.

All and all I hope we see more forums like this one for future elections.

The only real problem is less informed voters, like the Obama voters, will probably not take the time to get educated on the issues before voting.

PA Yankee/Kevin, Denise/ Bull& Ranger...
Billy Graham fulfilled his roll appropriately as counselor.

Blindly supporting the GOP? How about making your stand on Godly values? Should the GOP shift its position on Life, Gay Marriage or School Choice? What is it that you think Rick Warren has broken ranks with conservatives on except to water-down support among voters for conservative (oh, by-the-way, Godly) values? Is it the Global Climate Change issue?

Pastor Rick is living a self-fulfilled life in the limelight. He needs to listen to the Nathans in his life or he will run into trouble. Barak Obama is ill company for Pastor Warren. We will all get to see plainly how this transpires.

I'm with Kevin and Denise on this one. Bullmoose has it backwards. Conservatives must influence political parties. The Democrats have lost their way and the GOP has come to represent more Christian values.

Ranger... Real simple- because of party positions i.e., abortion rights & support of gay marriage I couldn't vote for a Democrat candidate for Dog Catcher in a local election. The GOP may never close the flap on the "Big Tent" theory, but they will continue to loose elections at every level until it decides how distinct it chooses to be.

Right now folks are saying the GOP is too conservative, blaming evangelical Christians for the losses. The truth is exactly the opposite...

Rick Warren's 15 minutes
I went through Warren's 40 Days book, twice. The first time, when we were in serious financial straights, it was a comfort. More importantly, we found it helped us in our walk with the One True Living God.
The second time, as part of our church's participation in the joint event with the Saddleback Church. That was when I first started to hear rumors about Warren (before which I knew nothing about the man).
I keeping with my policy not to believe anything until I see the evidence, I suspended belief in these rumors until I saw it. Since then, I've studied and read, and I believe I know the truth.
This, it turns out, is Warren's gift: He knows what Christianity is all about, and he can regurgitate it with precision.
He does, however, have a morally ambiguous political and historical view, besides not a little self-importance. His comments to the liberal media (in Florida, a while ago) reveal a lack of understanding of Christian history (certainly of the last 200 years), and his belief that he is a VIP in modern society.
I love the book, but reject the author as a leader.
The debate was okay, as far as the candidates revealing themselves: Obama is a moral fraud (no understanding of right and wrong), and McCain is a political fraud (no understanding of American principles). But there was one reason Obama won the election:
The voters were asked to elect either a Democrat, or a Democrat in Republican clothing.
They chose the honest one (just like Carter), who will, I think, prove to be honestly bad for our country.

Chuck's right..
Graham's biography "Just As I Am" indicates he was a Democrat first...

KilledMoose - At It Again!
"Obama's doing it because he doesn't give a shyt what God thinks."

KM, you are right. Obama doesn't give a shyt about what God thinks, but he does care a heck of a lot about what Americans think, which is why he felt the need to invite a minister to his party.

And, as for Palin's clothes that were donated to charity are concerned, how many hungry mouths were fed the gruel mashed from Obama's $140K Greek styrofoam columns.

BTW, how is the doubling or tripling of the gas tax proposed by the Libtards going to work out for you? I suppose that if you remain in Mommy's basement, you will remain oblivious.

Koolmuse
No, not kidding...

koolmuse...
No, not kidding...

The Completed Story
The completed story is in the title of your column "Rick Warren is No Billy Graham" That's a true and solid statement. I am an Old Goat that distrusts churchy movements that suddenly attract thousands of folks.I am suspect of all things that burst on the stage with "hey Ive got an idea, lets get the people in here by doing this or this" Modernism, humanism, new age is all the same. Man trying to outdo his fellow man. Ricks ego must be about to explode. He needs prayer just like the rest of us.

For the Love of An Atheist God
KilledMoose, really?

"Obama Seen As True Christian
If anyone has spoken in terms of true Christian compassion...it's Obama."

Yep, and all of those poor and middle class people that get to pay $4 or more for a gallon of gas will just kneel in adolation at the Christian altar of Obama! PUHLEASE.

In the space of a few months, we have gone from "Spread the Wealth" to, heck, let's just "Take the Wealth" from everyone. Gas hikes are not Progressive taxes, but REGRESSIVE ones because the poor wind up paying a disproportionately higher percentage of their incomes in energy costs. Last Summer's skyrocket in gasoline prices is a prime example because it had ZERO impact on me and a hold lot of hurtin' on less fortunate Americans.

"Robbing Peter to pay Paul" is no longer en vogue. Now, it is "robbing Peter, Paul and Mary to pay Government".

The Daily Kos entry
Of course, koolmuse is an Oxdown Gazette (think: Daily Kos) regular. There should be a warning label on each post: (Harmful or fatal if swallowed. Do not take with, or without, a grain of salt.)
He certainly doesn't know what a "true Christian" is. How can he know if Obama is one?
Remember: With them, it's all about the emotional preconceptions.

Rick Warren thinks God does not
notice what he is doing. He is like one of those kids who think that if he just ignores Dad,he can do as he pleases with no consequences.

In the Catholic church it is also a grave mortal sin to lead others into sin. Warren is in for a couple of big surprises: the first when he ends up under the bus as Jeremiah Wright assumes his position as False Prophet -- and the other when God finally loses his patience with Warrens assurances that as long as God does not strike you down on the spot,its okay to keep doing whatever you want to do.

Meanwhile Kanukistan continues to be the canary in the coal mine. I was told by an apologetic clerk at our monopoly bookstore that not only do they not carry the books of C.S. Lewis, but they cannot be ordered or sold in the country of Canada. I plan to check on some other widely available Christian books and see if this is the case with them, too. None of the public libraries in Ontario have them either, by the way.

Madoff is a 'Piker'

The 50 billion that Bernie Madoff conned people out of will pale in History compared to the trillions of dollars that Al Gore has 'scammed' with his Global Warming con.

The trillions that Al Gore has 'scammed' will pale in History compared to the greatest 'Con in History' - Barack Obama's 'Sacrifice for the Common Good' redistribution of wealth.

Barack 'Marxist' Obama will be remembered as the 'Prince of Destruction' and the greatest 'Con Man' in the history of the world.

Subject: Elections Over: Christians Lost

Hey, KilledMoose, how does it feel now that the Hispanic Catholics, Black Christians and White Mormons kicked your butt-wound to the curb?

Barack Obama a Bigot?

Time Magazine Declares Obama a Bigot.

"...Obama has proved himself repeatedly to be a very tolerant, very rational-sounding sort of bigot.

He is far too careful and measured a man to say anything about body parts fitting together or marriage being reserved for the nonpedophilic, but all the same, he opposes equality for gay people when it comes to the basic recognition of their relationships..."

Time Magazine
By John Cloud Thursday, Dec. 18, 2000

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1867664,00 .html

Repost with apologies: We QUALIFY!!
A Banana Republic is a pejorative term for a small country that is politically unstable, dependent on limited agriculture (e.g., bananas), and ruled by a small, self-elected, wealthy, and corrupt clique.[1] It is most commonly used for countries in Central America such as El Salvador, Belize, Nicaragua, Honduras, and Guatemala.

In some cases, these nations have kept the government structures that were modeled after the colonial Spanish ruling clique, with a small, largely leisure class on the top,and a large, poorly educated and poorly paid working class of peons, though it might have the (fake) trappings of modernity (such as styling itself a republic with a president etc.)

Frequently the subject of mockery and humour, and usually presided over by a dictatorial military junta that exaggerates its own power and importance—"the epaulettes of a banana republic generalissimo" are proverbially of considerable size, usually portrayed in satire with a pair of mops—a banana republic also typically has large wealth inequities, poor infrastructure, poor schools, a "backward" economy, low capital spending, a reliance on foreign capital and money printing, budget deficits, and a weakening currency. Banana republics are typically also highly prone to revolutions and coups.

-------Somebody send B.O. A Mop for his shoulders

KilledMoose
Who do you think is advocating doubling or tripling gas taxes on everyone? The Dimwatts.

Don't believe me, check out Obama's proposed Energy Secretary's opinion on gasoline prices. I sure hope that you don't mind paying $8 a gallon BEFORE the Mullahs impose their own form of taxation of Americans.

Personally, I would rather see the Government impose a "butt tax" because Americans carry a huge amount of junk in their trunks. "Taxing Your Butt Off" should be just that with the added bonus of solving The War on Poverty, Global Warming/Climate Change/Global Cooling, cancer, pollution, and retardation, which should be of a great help to you.

Barack 'Baby Torturer' Obama

2000-2001
=========
Obama opposes a bill that defines as a “person” a fully born baby who survives an abortion.

Obama votes “present” on legislation that would require doctors to give medical attention to babies who survive abortions. Obama argues that defining “…a pre-viable fetus" that survived an abortion as a "person" or "child would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute."

2002-2003
=========
In 2002, Obama, as an Illinois legislator, votes against the “Induced Infant Liability Act,” a law meant to protect the lives of babies who “inadvertently” survive attempted abortions and then need medical attention to survive; Obama’s is the sole vote against the bill, and a similar bill later passes unanimously in the United States Senate.

Obama votes against an Illinois bill banning state funding of late term abortions.

In 2003, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act again comes up in the Illinois Senate; as chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee, Obama shelves the bill, preventing it from even being brought to the Senate floor for a vote.

Michelle Obama, in February of 2004, sends a fund-raising letter with "alarming news" that "right-wing politicians" had passed a law preventing partial-birth abortions, which she called "a legitimate medical procedure;" she asks supporters to pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her candidate husband, who would fight against "cynical ploy[s]" to stop late-term abortions.


Rick Warren Is No Billy Graham
Quote from Star Parker's article:

"Barack Obama picked up five percentage points of the evangelical vote over what John Kerry received in 2004. Those five percentage points amounted to about a third of Obama's winning vote margin over John McCain".

If anyone calls themselve an EVANGELICAL, and then sides with Obama's position on abortion and gay rights, they had better read the Bible again, carefully and slowly. God does not, I repeat, does not condone abortion and homosexuality. Why would an EVANGELICAL do so? But then, I guess one has to truly believe God's Word, and not cave in when its precepts are challenged by an ungodly society!

AudiR10
wow. I am shocked and saddened to hear that C.S. Lewis is banned in Canada. Did they ban the movies based on his stories as well?? (the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and Prince Caspian)

Dark days are here. Thank you for keeping us informed of the decline from your place...I fear it is just a matter of time before similar activities occur here in the U.S.A.

Harry Reid and his Klan of Fifty

Harry Reid made it clear to Gov. Blagojevich, a few days before the good Governor was charged with trying to sell the Obama Senate seat that he did NOT want Jesse Jackson, Jr., Danny Davis or Emil Jones (all black).

"Inside Sources say the Senate majority leader pushed against Jackson and Davis -- both democratic congressmen from Illinois -- and against Jones -- the Illinois Senate president who is the political godfather of President-elect Barack Obama -- because he did not believe the three men were electable."

Reid accomplished the almost impossible

Harry Reid has accomplished the 'Almost Impossible' feat of having less regard for the law, less responsibility and likability than Rod Blagojevich.

Liberal political incompetence is breathtaking.

Is Harry Reid a racist also?

Warren: Multi-Level Marketer
I've seen Warren's stuff. Packaged like some multi-level marketing scheme. Lots of churches have bought into it - (I mentioned the word "bought," didn't I?)

Yeah, the new Emerging Church is as prone to worship Abraxis as Praxis - the two being co-evils, as well as co-stupid. And speaking of co-evils, you have to wonder if Warren spoke directly with the so-called "pastor" from the messiah-elect's former church, or if he just recused himself from knowing anything about him or his @ss-praxis theology. Balaam's donkey knows better than Reverend Wrong.

Christians, we're not supposed to cooperate with evil. And the modern American church has been co-opted and purchased, lining itself with self-indulgence and narcissism on a scale that can only be called Roman.

One day, under President Caligula, there may only be home churches that can preach the Gospel: all the other churches will be refused the right to preach against sin (like Canadian churches,) and it'll be fine for the Emergent churches, whose mirrors adorn every internal and external wall, making them both a mirror of the world and a vehicle for self-glorification.

Obama wants High Gas Prices

Reuters is reporting: "An Iranian military commander called on Islamic countries to cut oil exports to Israel's supporters in response to the Jewish state's offensive in Gaza, the official IRNA news agency reported on Sunday."


Started In The Sixties
The socialistic leanings of churches started in the 60s with the march on Washington. It became an extension of FDR and LBJ programs to turn the US towards socialism. Notice the difference between then and now. Now it is okay for the gubmint to own stocks, grant loans and do other bailouts to companies that should have gone bankrupt. The Dems have been "preaching" from church lib pulpits openly for years. Nothing new here.

Mod Mark & Gas Taxes
Since my oil and gas production proceeds keep increasing even when I am walking the few blocks to my office, the Government could raise the taxes and it would impact me little; however, it would have a HUGE impact on Americans.

The problem with a "floating gas tax" is that it will always seem to float to the top. The idea that the Middle East, Russia and Venezuela would be satified with $2 oil is like believing that gas taxes are not regressive.

If a retiree on Social Security or lower-Middle Class secretary gets hit with the same gas tax as I do, how does that not hurt average Americans?

Let's use your $2 example:
A part-time worker pays $2 a gallon and makes, say, $300/wk &
The a secretary pays $2 a gallon and makes, say, $55K/year &
A lawyer pays $2 a gallon and makes, say, $500K/year &
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett's chaffeurs pay $2 a gallon while their passengers are making who-knows-how-much a year?

Who gets hurt more?

Warren is greasy
At least that was always my perception of him. My wife likes him, but I don't care much about him or his books or his ministry. Just something about him that doesn't quite sit right.

Why our new Chocolate Jesus even needs a pastor to pray on Innogeration Day, confuses me. I thought he was "the One!"

Would have been here sooner, but had a kool 29 posts to flag. Didn't see many other references to troll drivel, so maybe you'all are ignoring them like I do. Weeding Wobbie will make your I.Q. dwop. Trying to make any sense of Krulmews will give you a headache. It's like arguing with tree stumps.

true belief's
rick warren seems straight,but,who are we to judge.personally my faith is impressed by those actions of the old methodist circuit riders,who endured hardships we pampered fools can never comprehend,or those faithful who gather in a house or tent or just an open area to accomadate a gathering of believers.who the hey needs a fancy enclosure or a crystal palace type atmosphere to impress our creator.if we fools believe personal comforts in worship are neccesary,these particular expectations have already derailed us from our god.true comfort will be felt by the warming of the heart and the satisfaction in one's conscience

Killed, do you even know...
Amendments are even passed?

Kudos if you didn't say by decision of SCOTUS!

" The first method is for a bill to pass both houses of the legislature, by a two-thirds majority in each. Once the bill has passed both houses, it goes on to the states. This is the route taken by all current amendments.

The second method prescribed is for a Constitutional Convention to be called by two-thirds of the legislatures of the States, and for that Convention to propose one or more amendments. These amendments are then sent to the states to be approved by three-fourths of the legislatures or conventions. This route has never been taken, and there is discussion in political science circles about just how such a convention would be convened, and what kind of changes it would bring about.

Regardless of which of the two proposal routes is taken, the amendment must be ratified, or approved, by three-fourths of states."

Good luck in getting finding 3/4s in those One Man & One Woman = Marriage states when more than 20 already have some sort of ban on your gay agenda. 3/4s of 50 is 12.5 states, which I will admit is a little more than curious, but it is the Amendment Process.

Who Voted FOR Prop 8, KM?
"Subject: Denise
" the Hispanic Catholics, Black Christians and White Mormons kicked your butt-wound to the curb?"

Whatever are y'all talking about?"

Who voted to ban gay marriage?

Homosexuality a Chosen Behavior

Homosexuality is NOT genetic.

Homosexuality is a chosen behavior that is abnormal, perverted, irresponsible and extremely unhealthy physically, emotionally and spiritually.

Gay Conservative
Wow: What an example of tolerance and good-will, you are! You do not have to agree with Retired Greek, but he is entitled to his opinion and his beliefs. Name calling is unbecoming, and does little to shore up any support for your obvious bias.

Your agument is not with RG but with God.

Mrs. Paddy
Since Retired Geek took swipes at me as an individual, I will do likewise. And guess what, I am an agnostic, thinking religion is for those who cannot think for themselves. If you want to believe in a book of fables, be my guest. It is a free country.

Frauds, both of them
Excellent, excellent column, Star Parker.

BO and Warren obviously made a mutually beneficial deal before that debate.

Neither BO nor Warren are truly Christians. I knew this about Warren the moment BO gave the "pay grade" response on abortion and Warren met that with changing the subject. An evangelical pastor would never have let that go.



Warren and Conservatism
Rick Warren has proven he is not going to be a conservative leader. He is part of the mushy middle that believe compromise is more important than priciple.

Star Parker
We cannot blame Rick Warren for the poor job of the parents of this age group.

Rick Warren wants Christianity to appear hip and with it obviously hip and with it is important to Rick Warren. As if Jesus isn't cool enough in Himself.

There is a movement afoot that is all about "social justice". I believe the code word is "FAIR". Many believe in it and think it has something to do with Christianity. They also give it equal footing with the "dignity of life" itself and sexual morality. It is just socialism. Youthful and therefor ignorant Christians are being convinced that socialism is Christian doctrine.

Bright and shining moment.
The Rick Warren discussions were John McCain's only bright and shining moment. You were absolutely and completely wrong. Rick Warren's function was not be provide a forum for his own idealogy, as for example the moderators for the debates. His function was to draw out answere and ideas from the candidates that revealed their thinking. He succeeded beyond any reasonable expectation.

Deranged Ranger + Depraved koolmuse =

While the Ranger has been limited of late(kudos to TOWNHALL), the koolmuse

above my pay grade
If we define death as brain death (the cessation of brain activity), then we must define the beginning of human life as the onset of brain activity. This requires the development of a brain, which does not exist at conception. A fertilized chicken egg is not a chicken, nor is a fertilized human egg a human.
We evangelicals should not assume God creates the soul and inserts it into the fetus. Why not assume the soul is generated by the brain?

Homosexuality is NOT Healthy

"There is evidence that homosexuality is itself a manifestation of a psychological disorder accompanied by a host of mental health problems, including "major depression, suicidal ideation and attempts, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, conduct disorder, low self-esteem in males and sexual promiscuity with an inability to maintain committed relationships."

Smoking Healthier than Homosexuality

The lifespan of a homosexual is on average 24 years shorter than that of a heterosexual. As a health threat, even smoking pales in comparison, as studies show smoking can shorten one's life by only 1 to 7 years on average.

Kool Muse @7:07am 1/5/09
"What the people think is that they want him as President...overwhelmingly... because they trust him to do the right thing...they know he's morally sound and hope is able to unite the country in the difficult days ahead."

Put down the Koolaid and pick up a copy of the U.S. Constitution. You don't appear to understand even the basic duties of the President's office or have a grasp on the various branches of government. Don't worry though, even Biden doesn't understand the duties of his office and he teaches law. What bothers me is why we permit people with your limited understanding of your own government to participate.

BO wasn't elected overwhelmingly. He didn't receive a landslide victory. However, it's easy to see how someone with your limited understanding could confuse the electoral college with the popular vote. Your side has been confusing those two for decades. FYI, Bill Clinton received less than 50% of the vote during his first election - it was 42% of the popular vote but received the electoral votes. Bush received a higher percentage of the popular vote and received the electoral votes. So much for Bush the election stealer argument, too.


looks like Saddleback Church...
...may not be as far from Brokeback Mountain as we've been led to believe.

the koolmuse...
continues to display his depraved, sick mind.

A partial ban, at the very least, should be considered and then hopefully imposed. TOWNHALL should not be disgraced daily by this borderline, mentally ill person.

If there was a God?
If There Really Was A God
He wouldn't have sent a pretzel to do a thunderbolt's job.
******************************

More like, if there really were a God, He would not have wasted his carbon credits on providing a wooden, metal, or plastic coat hanger for Obama's empty suit.

Ronald
I am so sorry didn't know the very presence of God was here. Tell us how did you create the universe?

Warren, Obama, McCain
Warren's 'famous' book was the beginning of the end for his 'credentials' as a CONSERVATIVE leader. The book was pap but we can thank him for introducing 'slouch apparel' to pulpit attire. Sloppy in the pulpit will pass but his influence continues. McCain made a mistake by attending.

Re: Religous Clergy!!!
Look, the vail of the smoke and colored glass has been broken and now we start to see the real world as it is, this R. Warren is a stuffed shirt and fake and should not be given the time of day by any clergy because he has compromised his morals and teachings of the bible to get place at the political trolfe!! The perishers at the SaddleSore church should not be very proud of this move by their leader!!
In fact the leadership of that congregation should be looking for a new pastor in my opinion!!!

The slide continues..............

"Research showed that 26 percent of 18-29 year old evangelicals, compared to 9 percent of those over 30, support same-sex marriage."

mush for brains........

Warren/Obama
Every comment is missing the point. Warren is only carrying out Christ's command - "Go and teach all nations...." Warren's appearance emulates Christ who walked and taught among the sinners of His day. Warren is only carrying out the message of Christ - "....go and sin no more". Who knows, except God Himself, if Obama will heed the words of Christ spoken through the mouth of Warren.

Silver Lion @ 9:05am
I wouldn't worry too much about that statistic. It's much like the political beliefs one espouses in one's 20s. Many 20-somethings are liberal because they haven't begun working or paying taxes. Once these kids start paying for the deficits run up by earlier generations, they'll (hopefully) come to another conclusion about beneficent government.

Since the age at which one marries is deferred more and more, these kids will change their minds once they get married and begin a family in their 30s.

evangelicals are morons
they were tricked into thinking that Bush was a compassionate conservative(twice) and then they helepd rip the party apart because they feel their bible thumping ideology take place over fiscal rsonsibility plain and simple. Social conservative and evangelicals could care less about the economy but just let somebody be gay or pregnant or an illegal alien and all of sudden its torches and pictforks time.

These people need to go form their own conservative party because the GOP is pretty much done with the social conservatives. Alreayd the social fear mongers all threw in behind ken blackwell for RNC chair despite blackwell's complete lack of acheiving anything remotely resembling a politcal victory in the last few years-to them the purity of ideology is all that matters. The social conservative would just as soon hand over the counry to the socialists as long as thei biblical more are adhered to.

Their poison knocked romney out of the race and elevated Huckabee to national status-I guess that really tells us everything we need to know. Secretly populism is appealing to them as long as everybody says the pledge or doesn't have an abortion.

I say they should put their money where thei mouths are-run a party based on social conservatism with sarah plain at the ehad and lets just see how many elections you manage to win.

Christ is the answer!!!!!!!!!
Rick Warren? Billy Graham? C.S. Lewis? Martin Luther? or Martin L. King Jr. All just men, Men who sin, men who make mistakes, It will always be so. Those who caught the FOX interview with Mosab Hassan Yousef the 30 year old son of a Hamas founder saw truly what Christ can do in a persons life. If this young man is for real and it appears he is just that, the answer to all the world problems is not any politician,or any preacher, its the love of God throught Jesus Christ in the hearts of men. Revival only comes by the "grace" of God when men go to their knees. This country is being taken to its knees for sins of abortion, adultry, homosexuality, greed, pride, and idol worship. Psalm 97:10 Let those who love the Lord hate evil, for he guards the lives of this faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked. There is only one way to eternal live "faith in Christ" then love your neighbor.

Warren and Graham
Both Warren and even Billy Graham loved the power that comes from mixing with the movers and shakers in American politics. The more Warren gets involved with Obama or whomever, the more he will be apt to compromise his faith. It is important for pastors especially to not become entangled with the world. Rev. Warren should preach the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ and defend the Bible's teaching on the sanctity of life, beginning in the womb, as well as its teaching on personal purity and compassion for our neighbor. Leave politics to those, both Christians and non, whose callings are not as high as his, which is to shepherd the church of Christ.

Starr
I love your writing and value your opinions and agree with you about 99.9% of the time - however; PLEASE, please get the quote right - Rick Warren did you ask Obama when an unborn child gets human rights - he asked him when a BABY is entitled to human rights.

Silver Lion
You are absolutely right. I cannot believe that 1 in every 4 people that claim to live according to scripture believe exactly the opposite of what it says. I once heard on the radio say it perfectly. The average person today may claim to be a Christian but they just do not believe in the same Christ as we do.

People today think of God as more of a buddy up in the sky that will always forgive you. It's true to an extent, but they lack more of the respect and the fear. "It is ok if I am a homosexual because God loves me." Yes He does, but do you love Him enough to follow His commandments.

Ronald 8:38AM
The issue isn't "brain waves". That's a humanistic construct formulated by the pro-abortionists to set the terms of the debate in terms that favor their position.

The defining characteristic is "personhood", i.e. individuality and uniqueness, and that is defined Biblically.

Try not to lose sight of the distinctions.

-----

Job 31:15
5 Did not he who made me in the womb make him?
And did not one fashion us in the womb?
RSV

Ps 139:13
3 For thou didst form my inward parts,
thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.
RSV



Warren's a Moral Whore
Warren, who touts himself as a Christian beacon, instructs America to get beyond concerns for protection of unborn babies and the preservation of the traditional family unit and focus on more important issues. He's never stated what those more important issues are. The fact is Warren is an Obama soul mate. Both of these guys place personal ambition above values and principles; the PURPOSE that drives them in their lives is the accumulation of fame and power. They are are a perfect match for the inauguration ceremony.

Ronald 8:38AM
One more:

Jer 1:5
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
RSV

I like Star Parker. But ...
her reasoning here is inconsistent at best. First she says she can't prove Warren's interview helped Obama. Then a few paragraphs later she states categorically that Warren helped Obama get elected. That just isn't true.

Rick Warren's interview helped McCain far more than Obama. In addition, McCain was gaining on Obama until the economic storm took over. Maybe she thinks the pastor at Saddleback had a direct hand in bringing that storm onto the political scene.

This is news?
Graham was/is always a patriotic American Christian (though on the question of "Christian first or American first", I cannot answer). Warren, on the other hand, actually believes in acceptability of one-world government--a concept cent-percent incompatible with patriotism, and also abominable to the Lord (who prevented mankind's first attempt at such--at Babel).

AMEN Star Parker!
Perfectly stated.

I watch in disgust as the completely self promoting Rick Warren uses the empty suit and the empty suit uses Rick Warren. How wonderful for their power needs.

R. Warren represents the olive branch to evangelical Christians. JOKE. The MSS lives in this bubble, hoping to keep us in our corner praying to a God they don't believe in a leaving the business of ruining the country to them on our tax dollars. Did I mention Obama seems to be a complete atheist despite his rhetoric. When he quotes a scripture out of context, it is embarrassing and repulsive.

Rick Warren is the biggest phony yet on the public stage. I keep wondering when he is going to share some of the food he eats himself with the people of Africa he plans to save from going hungry. That would be a start.

I won't be watching the big show in a couple of weeks. No one will be representing this evangelical Christian. I would need a tum if I did.

Dr. Chaz
". He's never stated what those more important issues are. "

Yes, he has. He wants to help the poor and , with our money, fight AIDS in Africa.

Canadian book ban on Lewis?
Also on AudiR10's claim of CS Lewis' books being banned in Canada:

I could find no independent verification that one can not buy or sell books written by C. S. Lewis in Canada. In fact, I found numerous examples of Canadian bookstores ready to do business with Lewis' books. I don't think she's making the story up, but I think she's reading more into it than is really there.

Kind of like this whole thing about Rick Warren.

Driven?
I would rather be Spirit-led than "Purpose-driven."

Warren no Graham
It's true Rick Warren is no Billy Graham. Rick Warren remained neutral in presidential politics while Billy Graham endorsed Richard Nixon in 1968.

They still don't get it
Mod Mark writes:

"If there was a Chistian God [h]e would have blessed us with the Ghawar oil field instead of giving it to the Muslims."

Liberals apparently never learn anything about history. God DID "bless" Christians with the Ghawar oil field. He even sent his only son, Jesus Christ, to that part of the world to show his children the way.

Christianity was BORN in the Middle East. And it was from the Middle East that it spread to become the dominant religion of Europe and the Western Hemisphere. The ME was the most universally devout Christian homeland in the world until the 'prophet' Mohammed began the muslim conquest of it in the 7th century through the use of using murder and other violence.

God "bless[ed]" his children with America too. And ruthless Islam will do its best to take that away from Christians, just as they did the ME. And liberals like Mod Mark will enable them by implying that God doesn't exist because he hasn't handed Mod Mark and his ilk everything they want on a silver platter and chased away every bully that might try to steal it.

Liberals still don't get what the Bible means; that on earth God's work must truly be done by his children.

RGeek-MPaddy-Others
New Year Observations
If character was height , Rick Warren would have stand on the roof of The Empire State Building to kiss Billy Graham’s A$$.

I see Dysfunctional Libtards (i.e. LithiumMuse, the Leader of The Skinflute Orchestra), Moderates and other Gutless Wonders CONTINUE to plaque TH with their Idiotic Imbecilic Incoherence.

What is it with Liberals that they INSIST on associating with people that they profess UNDYING HATRED For?

5 Star Column
Warren has sold his soul for a mess of pottage. He has linked himself and his support to a very dubious man by accepting the invitation from Obama. I have totally lost any semblance of respect for this pastor who stands for nothing. He not only made an error in judgment, he exposed his lukewarm, wobble-headed brand of faith. Faith you can't believe in!!!
Thanks for presenting a truth-telling assessment, Star. Great Job!

Warren seeks souls not political goals
As an evangelical pastor I have to tell you that Rick Warren with all his flaws is not in any way responsible for the election of Barrack Obama. In fact in short it was a democratic year because of a two term president who had become wildly unpopular and an economic situation that was beyond McCain's control. Warren seeks to reach as many unchurched people as possible even at the cost of losing favor amongst conservatives. He is a pastor not a politician. God is not a Republican of a Democrat and Warren is doing all he can to reach as many people for Christ as possible. It is not the job of the church to support conservative policy or to be the morality policy but rather to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Warren came out against homosexuality during the election cycle, a bold move in Southern CA. Cut Warren some slack, he is doing all he can to remain culturally relevant so he can stand for Jesus!

For Taft
"Is she a "magic negro" too?"

What does Parker's race have to do with anything?

Once again a leftist shows that liberals are the real racists.

As far as being a "magic negro" goes, that term also was invented by a liberal, and he described Obama as such because racist white liberal voters were comfortable him because he was "articulate" and didn't have a rap sheet as long as his arm. There was a time when liberals referred to blacks like Obama as "Oreos".

Or does Obama legitimately avoid the "Oreo" tag by being a "community organizer", a political radical willing (and wanting) to tear society down to a virtual collapse (as recommended by Saul Alinsky in "Rules for Radicals") in order to gain power, and by sitting in Reverend Wright's church and saying "Amen" to Wright's vicious racist screeds for 23 years?

Preachers preach salvation
Matthew 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The world like some of the posters simply do not want to hear and certainly do not understand the need to accept the Word of God. Yes God loves all his children, but He gave us a savior in Jesus Christ. Rick Warren and any other preacher's first responsibility is to preach salvation throught faith by the "grace" of God our creator.

For Mod Mark
Re: Retired Geek

"His dreams of a fulfilling retirement has long vanished it sits all day posting the same stuff over and over again."

RG posts the same information time after time because the libs who frequent TH can never refute it. Instead they ignore RG's facts and then, after they think the rest of us have forgotten RG's info, attempt to re-assert the same false BS that RG has already laid to waste many times over.

You, Mod Mark, are a perfect example. You come to TH almost daily with your BS and your half-baked opinions and theories, totally unsupported by fact, history, or science. RG lays your lame arguments to waste with his facts. Now, instead of engaging in a civil debate of the issues based on factual information, you issue a personal attack against a man (or woman) about whom you know nothing.

Your blind outlash is just more evidence that it is the left who is mean-spirited, even hateful, and it is the left that repeatedly spews unsubstantiated opinion and wishful thinking as if it were fact.

When Obama's Great Tribunal becomes the de facto gov't vacant, incomptetent, and intolerant clowns like you will be issued guns and badges by the Ministry of Thought and given authority to round up dissidents like Retired Geek and wiseone and have us institutionalized "for their own protection".

Warren, I hope is for an AWAKENING
PRAY AND PRAISE IN JESUS FOR AN AWAKENING!! I agree with Chris (90) above; I think Warren is seeking souls and hoping to help America. Let's live and work and trust for JESUS. W K

Dumb Political Move, But...
Questionable motives of the part of the protestors.

The song parodied the story written by the LIBERAL rag, the Los Angeles Times.

The LAT used the term "Magic Negro" and not one Liberal raised an eyebrow and
Senator George Wallace, Harry Reid, wants to stand in the doorway and bar the only would-be African-American Senator that was constitutionally appointed by the Governor of Illnois (warts and all) and he is not racist.

And, the GOP is the Party of Racism?

Smelly Tourist thinks that King Dingy and his merry band of hand-wringers should pause in front of a mirror for a second.

Mod Mark and Frank are Correct
As a former Catholic I have my own opinions about religion and morals, but government spending is the biggest crisis facing our nation. Government spending by Republicans is shameful and contrary to party values yet the past 8 years have seen spending on levels we could never imagine.

I think the only hope of Republican victory will come when Republicans reassert (in deed as well as word) commitment to fiscal restraint and respect for individual liberty.

chris 10:32AM
"Cut Warren some slack, he is doing all he can to remain culturally relevant so he can stand for Jesus!"

The two (the culture and Jesus) are diametrically opposed, pastor.

For Taft
"...what does Obama's race have to do with being ridiculed by republican senators with this "magic" junk?"

Citations please. Which Republican Senators have "ridiculed" Obama as a "magic negro"? Please furnish the exact quote(s), in context.

"I don't care who started it..."

That's what libs always say when some liberal steps in a pile of "sh*t". You never "care" when the racist hoo-ha is started by a racist liberal.

You are putrid. A black liberal at a liberal newspaper (the "Los Angeles Times") coins the term "magic negro" and now you try to put those words in the mouth of a poster at TH because you don't like what he wrote.

This is just too, too typical of how liberals "debate". Tell me, how long will it be before you, or some other lib troll, accuse me of being racist because I have insisted that the record of "magic negro" be set straight in terms of its origin and what it means? How long will it be befre some lib troll accuses me of "ridicul[ing]" Obama as a "magic negro"?

You don't even understand that it is you who have attempted to use "magic negro", an invention of one of you liberal fellow travelers, to "ridicule" both kelli and Parker.

And why should you? In your world all racism is conservative and all conservatism is racist. Liberals on the other hand, are pure as the driven snow and whatever they say is, by definition, socially acceptable and brilliant.

Warren's Feel-Good Leftward Shuffle
We're simply defining deviency downward, in obedience to the new, 'enlightend', Christianity-replacing religion of Humanism (http://www.jcn.com/manifestos.html).

The whole country is now submissively chanting the mantras of 'Diversity, Choice, World Community, Consenting Adults, Redistribution, Sustainability...'.

Of course Rick Warren is no Billy Graham. Warren is quite a few shuffles to the Left of Graham, and the new 'evangelical' gospel is moving ever closer to the 'social gospel' that has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, Scriptural commands and unwavering principles that clearly differentiate good from evil. In fact, many 'Christians' reading this will say, 'So what?'

A few more government goodies scattered out to the dependent flock will make people feel better.

But it will not alter the standards that will be used on Judgement Day.

MOD MARK


....."If there was a Chistian God

He would have blessed us with the Ghawar oil field instead of giving it to the Muslims." ...

.....Maybe God just bestows life and what we do with it after that is up to us ....Allah be praised ...may the force be with you .....COLOSSUS

....BTW ...we have more fossil fuel deposits in the USA (Oil, Gas & Coal) than the entire ME ...but the Demoboob/Libs wont let us develop them ...does that make them the agents of the Devil? .....COLOSSUS

Well
C #40, Warren could have been auditioning for the Jan. 20 gig and it wouldn't do to challenge
the big O.
Retired Geek, #45 Thank you from the adoptive mom of a man struggling to get out of a 20 year addiction to this life having been seduced and used beginning at age 14. He does have serious
emotional and personality problems, very much like those you (and the rest of us) have had to endure on TH.

Califson #21 well said. We saw the Fox interview and also believe Mosab is a believer.
He's put his life on the line for Christ. And
we believers must remember to pray for him.
You are so right, we are being brought to our knees and are just beginning to learn about God's tough love.

Moral ambiguity…

‘…America's crisis is moral ambiguity…Pastor Warren would only contribute to this ambiguity by hosting candidates with opposing views on issues such as abortion and homosexuality and presenting himself as a neutral moderator.’ –Star Parker


Well said Ms. Parker.

Speaking of moral ambiguity…here is another TownHall classic from the preachers of unrighteousness…

‘Christianity isn't about abortion or gay marriage...its about equality before God....loving thy neighbor... and forgiving...even evil people like you...your trespasses against others...’

How does the gospel become so perverted? Only the depravity of men can explain the reasoning that transforms Christ’s redemption of men unto holiness into a justification for licentiousness. Did the Savior suffer for sin that we might live in sin? God forbid!

The only equality before God is that in Adam we all live under the just condemnation due our sin. Our need is not equal justice before God, but the unmerited favor of God revealed in Christ.

Moral ambiguity comes from an inadequate view of our depravity that necessitated the great work of redemption accomplished at the cross. Nothing but the perfect obedience of the Lamb of God is adequate to cover the lawlessness of men.

And what is the origin of this improper view of men? Are men progressing to greater and greater heights, and his faults due only to his incomplete evolution? Or is man captive to his nature, and his faults the result of who man is and has always been since sin and death entered the creation?

This issue is the root of the cultural divide. Biblical Christianity is about the redemption of men; Darwinism denies that men need redemption. One view is about life; the other is about death.

koolmuse and Taft
Until you can engage in constructive intelligent discussion your should close down your keyboards.

That is the clutch of it...
On the issue of global warming they are on the same page. Social issues too.

The problem is global warming is turning as the facts are against that issue. How does a Pastor claim truth and proven a liar? Call it a mistake, so much for his absolute truth.

Socialism is a great thing. I just prefer I do it myself. When he realizes his individual freedom is snatched away and government will socialize them in his ideology. Then what?

Young people are always looking for new ways to define their generation. I see two movements: Ron Paul with constitutional government and socialism attracting them.

Which one will define this generation, poverty?

For Alecto
I agree with JeffersonianConstitutionalist that the Warren interviews of Obama and McCain were the best of the campign. I didn't see these interviews, but according to everything I read and heard immediately afterward, McCain mopped the floor with Obama at Saddleback. And Obama confirmed what we all suspected; without a teleprompter he is a stuttering, stammering, dull-witted empty suit without any moral compass save the "say whatever will get me elected" philosophy that he shares with so many of our worst politicians.

I also agree with you that gov't spending is the single biggest threat facing us today and that the GOP must return to its roots of fiscal restraint.

But that is not what Frank wrote (or what Mod Mark agreed with). Frank wrote that social conservatives will have to start their own party because the GOP is through with them.

It's important to point out that John McCain, the choice of the GOP that Frank claims is "through" with social conservatives has a perfect voting record AGAINST legalized abortion. It is equally important to mention that it was on the issue of abortion that Obama stumled the most and was most made to look like an incompetent political suck-up at Saddleback.

McCain was the choice of the 'big-gov't' faction of the GOP that tried to sell us on "big-government conservatism". That means that if the GOP is "through" with any conservatives it is the fiscal conservatives, not the social conservatives as claimed by Frank.


thoughts.
Christ did not condemn nor judge people because they were sinners. Instead, he reached out to them. He led by example. This tends to get ignored. Sin, is still sin. The bible states that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The bible is skeptical of those who seek power. In the case of wealth and power, after all, you have people who are pursuing earthly goals, not those associated with leading a godly life.

Indeed, Christ was skeptical of such people - and doubtful that they could in fact lead a christian life, let alone get into the kingdom of heaven. Almost by definition, as a result, ambitious and driven men whose goal in life is to become President, are not christians. We forgive them their sins, which involves a constant and routine manipulation of the the voters, and of the Congress. They often do not tell the truth. They often misrepresent their positions to get votes. Power, after all, not a Christian life is what they have chosen. We then try to draw lines. We say that someone who is not opposed to abortion is a sinner. Fine. But doe we apply the same standards to all of the other kinds of sin? That can also ensure that they are not a Christian? Christ, as far as I can tell, never made any great differentiation of sin - it was just sin.


do some research
billy graham has publicly stated he has been a democrat all his life.

he has been a pastor and mentor to presidents of both parties.


Politically, Graham has been a lifelong supporter of the Democratic Party, although more recently he has adopted a flexible position, choosing to cast his vote with either party, depending on which he considers most appropriate at the time. He has had close relationships with Lyndon B. Johnson and Bill Clinton, but he is still very close to the Bush family.

http://www.online-bibleconcordance.com/Ministers/BillyGraha m.aspx


Oh My Gosh
Come on folks it is just an opening prayer. Has nothing to do with gas or taxes or gays and straights.
Rick Warren is a good example of a Christian, it is not his place to judge, that is above his pay-grade and other Christians. I am a Christian and love the Lord, don't judge my own brother who is gay, that was his life choice. I was a stoner and the Lord lifted me up from that life of lost. Please don't fear that you do not understand, read, ask questions until you can form an informed opinion, don't think Star Parker did her homework.......Artist & gun owner

redlac
don't know your political persuasion but that was a well reasoned post.

the idea that one sin is greater than another is something i have never understood.

my brother is a baptist minister and when i ask what sins he commits he talks of gloating because he was proven right or feeling good because someone got what was coming to them.

now these sins pale in comparison to the demons i deal with every day as a Christian but it makes the point sins are sins.


That's right Taft, change the subject...
...again.

When I posted that Parker's race has nothing to do with the article you responded "Exactly,". But you still haven't explained why you brought it up. If the article is not about race why did you bring it up?

Why did you make references to unnamed Senators "ridicul[ing]" Obama about being a "magic negro"? Events I've asked you cite and which you are apparently unable to cite. So were you lying when you wrote this or just mistaken?

Instead of substantiating your claim you now want to change the subject to George Allen and "macaca". What do Allen and "macaca" have to do with Warren and Obama?

Why are you insisting on making this a discussion about race when the article is about religion? Could it be because you you have no intelligent defense of Obama on the issues of abortion and religion? That's what it looks like to me and, I'm sure, to others.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why, if conservatives are the racists, it is you, a liberal, who injected racism into the discussion.

Oh My Gosh
Come on folks it is just an opening prayer. Has nothing to do with gas or taxes or gays and straights.
Rick Warren is a good example of a Christian, it is not his place to judge, that is above his pay-grade and other Christians. I am a Christian and love the Lord, don't judge my own brother who is gay, that was his life choice. I was a stoner and the Lord lifted me up from that life of lost. Please don't fear that you do not understand, read, ask questions until you can form an informed opinion, don't think Star Parker did her homework.......Artist & gun owner

"christian" lib
You are NOT a Christian. You are a liberal.

Adding the word 'christian' to your s/n is a weak but tranparently phony attempt to give your liberalism 'credibility'.


Billy Graham
Billy Graham was an anti-semite. Remember the released tapes of conversations between him and Nixon where they bashed Jews?



annfan

in your bible it must say that you have the right to judge others correct?

exactly what part of my post do you not agree with.

rather than judge me, why don't you engage me in civil conversation.



there are millions of Christians who are liberal.

you might want to check out jim wallis's website and ministry called sojourner.

Scriptures say

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10) . . .What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. . .

Billy Graham
Obviously Ms. Parker didn't know much about Billy Graham. In his last appearance in NYC, the Clintons were front row center. Mr. Graham made the remark that he thought Mrs. Clinton would make a good president.

Nazis and Liberals

The Nazis bashed the Jews.

Liberals bash the Christians.

Its what facists do.

They demonize anyone they disagree with.

Pay Grade?
It isn't above Obama's pay grade to give millions of bail out tax dollars to Planned Parenthood to kill millions of American babies and promote promiscuity for young people on their new video who by the way, made a profit of over $1,000,000. Now, why should the American people pay for everybody else's kids in the millions to abort their babies when it's a individual choice and a family matter and no one pays anyone to have a baby? Why is Obama set on using our tax dollars to pay for everyone else's moment of "pleasure" at the expense of the American people who need those billions of dollars spent on abortions that's making the baby killing aka abortions factories rich when there are hospitals and pregnancy should be a private individual responsibility. If you're responsible or irresponsible enough to get pregnant even though contraceptives are free for those who can't afford them then it should be the individual's responsibility or their family's responsibility to pay for their own abortions or pregnancies, and not the responsibility of the American people. And, Rick Warren should stand up and be counted as a soldier for Christ without fear or he will appear lukewarm and he will either be known as a believer or a entertainer.

Christian Lib
Christian + Lib = Confused.

At the very best. And at the very worst......

Question for the TH Christians
"Is Christ divided? Was Billy crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Rick?"
--1 Corinthians 1:13 (sort of)

Rick Warren
I believe that Rick Warren thinks he is right when he makes the statements and performances that he does, but he in actuality does much harm to Christians in general. He states he supports same sex unions, but the acts they commit is still an abomination in the eyes of God. He dismisses the fact that obama is willing to kill more innocent american children in one year than the Viet Nam war and the fist and second Persion gulf wars have killed combinmed. When I say dismisses, I mean he still is subservient to obama. obama does need our prayers as do other abortionists, but not our support. Rick Warren views in many cases are anti-christian and he is no Billy Graham or Gordon B. Hinckley.

Liberals don't know jack
Mario writes:

"Reagan was a liberal leaning republican. He increased spending and raised taxes."

So now Reagan raised taxes.

And black is white.

Right is wrong.

Next a dog will be a cat if that's what suits liberals.

Mario is an idiot.

Can't wait for BOs inauguration
and as a matter of fact, next summer can't come too soon. By then we'll have some idea of what Obama intends to do, or try to do. The current crop of starry-eyed worshipers already predicting he will be our greatest ever president get tiresome. A few doses of reality will clear the air, one way or the other.

eugene
and i could say the same about conservative Christians.

exactly, how do you determine a "real" Christian.

must their political points of view conform to yours before you make a judgement on them.

conservatives favor the wealthy over the poor.

is that something you think Jesus Christ would approve of?

wiseone
are you denying reagan raised taxes.

it is a fact.


But Ronald Reagan does hold a special place in the annals of tax policy, and not just as the patron saint of tax cuts. To his credit, he was more pragmatic and responsible than that; he followed his huge 1981 tax cut with two large tax increases. In fact, no peacetime president has raised taxes so much on so many people. This is not a criticism: the tale of those increases tells you a lot about what was right with President Reagan's leadership

The first Reagan tax increase came in 1982. By then it was clear that the budget projections used to justify the 1981 tax cut were wildly optimistic. In response, Mr. Reagan agreed to a sharp rollback of corporate tax cuts, and a smaller rollback of individual income tax cuts. Over all, the 1982 tax increase undid about a third of the 1981 cut; as a share of G.D.P., the increase was substantially larger than Mr. Clinton's 1993 tax increase.


Don't Agree
I saw that forum and although most men of God would not do such a thing, Warren did. I thought that Obama came across as a schmuck in that forum. No decisive answers and no backbone. All politician, business as usual. and this was the one thing that made me decide on McCain. Not the greatest candidate, but a he held carried himself very well and he was very direct with his answers. Evangelicals of the 18-29 variety are just voting in the popularity contest. All of their peers voting with the national zeitgiest and not with their hearts and minds. Hope and change over Faith hope an Love. It's who these people put their faith in, that's not Warrens fault. That's Their own fault. But a man of God praying for our president and our nation is always a good thing. Except for that climate Garbage I have not heard bad things about warren. I just hope he prays in tongues and in Jesus Christ Name on January 20th. I don't think Warren is in bed with Obama or any other politician, but instead sees a great need of God for this country. So relax and lets see what the Lord brings.

"christian" lib
how can you put the two words together and be okay with it. liberals are the ones who want to take under god from the pledge and from all public places. liberals are the ones who create racial divide and conservative are not "for the rich and against the poor" you should really not look to bluffington post for your info. conservative/christians take care of the poor but want to lift them up not keep them down just to buy votes.
Look at the political parties for example... take a look at how much each gave to charity...
you just might be surprised. biden gave like $500 and kerry gave $1,000 compared to the millions they made it is a shame.
enslaving the poor with government hand outs is more harm than good.

Mario
You must be a non tax paying graduate of the public school system if you believe the tax cut Obama plans is anything more than credits as welfare, to pay for the votes he bought.

Your empty rhetoric about conservatives being fascists is so pitiful. Oh what a great day it will be when the public school system is put out to pasture.

Don't bite the conservative hand that feeds you on welfare.

Dear Chris, the pastor, I hope you grow up soon. If you are snowed by Warren, heaven help the youth you are probably in charge of as a youth pastor.

Mario at 12:57
You got it mixed up (correcting the "correction" and the atrocious spelling)

Nazis and Muslims

The Nazis bashed the Jews.

Muslims KILL anyone who disagrees with them.

It's what fascists do.

Conservatives are NOT fascists.

susanne
first i have never been to huffington post in my life.

my opinions and beliefs come from reading all sorts of media from both right and left.
i read the washington post and washington times.

i listen to savage and hewitt on the right and shultz and madow on the left on talk radio.

i watch oreilly and olbermann.

do you listen to other sources of information than just conservative?


this statement is untrue.

"liberals are the ones who want to take under god from the pledge and from all public places."

the guy who sued to get under God taken away was not a liberal. he was a conservative atheist, in fact, there are a number of conservative atheists.

http://www.compleatheretic.com/links/godlessright.html

besides he was in a custody battle with his wife and was trying every thing he could to make it difficult for her.


your statistics about conservatives giving more than liberals comes from one study and is not valid.

than you say this.

"enslaving the poor with government hand outs is more harm than good."


well we could start out by discussing how 60% of those who are poor in this country are under 18.

second, as a Christian it is my reponsibilty to urge the government to help the poor just as it is a Christians responsibilty to try and end roe v wade.

yes, i am pro-life.

you can't have it both ways though.
you can't want the government to intercede in areas you feel are religious values and then condemn someone who feels the same but has a different issue.

are you denying that conservatives believe the wealthy should get tax breaks and the poor should not?

Star, What's Wrong With You?
What's wrong with all of you journalist people? I know you probably don't write your own headlines, maybe you do as a columnist, but Rick Warren makes no pretense or claim to being a Billy Graham. Only you loony journalists speculate about it.
Also you were wrong last summer when you criticized Warren and the Saddleback Forum, and you are wrong now. Compared to McCain, Obama looked like the stammering, indecisive, fence-straddling fool that he is without his teleprompter and words written by his handlers.
There are much stronger and credible reasons for the election of Obama than those you posit related to the Forum. One is his illegal fundraising that will probably never be examined. Another is the dumbing down of the electorate in our schools by Liberal domination for 40 years – a generation. Perhaps foremost, people voting on race to which Obama and his handlers appealed.
For evidence in support of these reasons please see Obama’s campaign fundraising, campaign statements including the dumb things he said at the Saddleback Forum, and the Howard Stern, Zogby/Ziegler interviews of Obama voters, Dr. Lyle Rossiter’s book on the mental illness of Liberals, the pic of the Wal*Mart Stampeders and the video of braying jackasses outside the OJ sentencing courtroom for starters.
Perhaps you need to take a break from column writing and get your head screwed on straight before trying again. Best of the New Year to you and yours.

Play Date with BHO..
Actions speak louder than words. Having a play date with a prominent religious figure who wrote some popular books doesn't mean bo-diddly. BHO cannot hide from his voting record, and will not be able to hide from his policy initiatives.
It does not matter what you call yourself, if you support the execution of our free market, petroleum based economy, based on faulty science, you will be in bed with those who disable the USA. In retrospect, anyone aiding and abetting the stated policies of BHO will most likely be ashamed of themselves.

Look it up yourself Mario
And stop trying to redefine the terms so you can call Reagan "left-leaning".

There is a difference between raising taxes and raising revenue.

"Reagan raised taxes. You are wrong. Look it up."

Reagan cut the top marginal tax rates from 70% to 28%.

As Reagan predicted, this sparked a tremendous increase in economic activity which in turn increased REVENUE to the Treasury.

The same thing happened under GWB.

Repeating your lie doesn't make it true.

Reagan cut taxes. GHWB and Clinton both raised taxes. Then GWB cut them again.

Tax cuts gives booms. Tax hikes cause recessions.

Retired Geek
You trot out the same material nearly every day on homosexuality, abortion, or another one of your pet beefs. But alas, when one has limited brain capacity, one cannot think for themselves, just recite data.

Mario
"I probably pay more taxes than you earn in a year."

And, I probably donate to charity more than you earn in a year.

Mario
While Reagan was a great President, he did raise taxes after his initial tax cuts. In addition, there was the Social Security tax increase in 1983, with Bob Dole, Tip O'Neill and Reagan concurring on this bipartisan plan. Frankly, I wish they hadn't raised the SS tax, but history says I'm correct.

Rick Warren...
...is probably trying to be the new Billy Graham, but he doesn't even com close. All he did was make people think that Barack Hussein Obama is a true Christian when time and time again he proved just the opposite. In particular when he allowed his followers to think of him as "The Messiah" and call him "The One." If he were a true Christian he would have discourage that. But, he has delusions of grandeur. I personally doubt whether BHO has any true religious beliefs. I'm also willing to bet that he will insist that the news media follow him to church every Sunday so he can prove how much of a Christian he is. Probably even have them video him inside the church praying.

wiseone
please counter these facts as you still seem to be claiming reagan never raised taxes.

here is a breakdown.


Reagan may have resisted calls for tax increases, but he ultimately supported them. In 1982 alone, he signed into law not one but two major tax increases. The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act (TEFRA) raised taxes by $37.5 billion per year and the Highway Revenue Act raised the gasoline tax by another $3.3 billion.

According to a recent Treasury Department study, TEFRA alone raised taxes by almost 1 percent of the gross domestic product, making it the largest peacetime tax increase in American history. An increase of similar magnitude today would raise more than $100 billion per year.

In 1983, Reagan signed legislation raising the Social Security tax rate. This is a tax increase that lives with us still, since it initiated automatic increases in the taxable wage base. As a consequence, those with moderately high earnings see their payroll taxes rise every single year.

In 1984, Reagan signed another big tax increase in the Deficit Reduction Act. This raised taxes by $18 billion per year or 0.4 percent of GDP. A similar-sized tax increase today would be about $44 billion.

The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 raised taxes yet again. Even the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which was designed to be revenue-neutral, contained a net tax increase in its first 2 years. And the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987 raised taxes still more.


Christian lib
Again you go no where with your judgements.

I'm not trying to define you as a Christian. I know what being a Christian is, and it has nothing to with rich or poor, but keep kidding yourself, it exposes you as the fraud you are.

And your logic makes debating you on any subject a waste of time.

eugene
interesting,

you do exactly what you accuse me of doing and then run from a civil exchange.

why is that?

so i will ask again.

what exactly i have i said that you find incompatible with Christianity?

eugene
i must respond to this statement though

"being a Christian is, and it has nothing to with rich or poor,"

Jesus Christ in the new testament refers to the poor close to 100 times.

why would he spend so much time discussing the issue if it were of no consequence?


ok eugene
i run a small business and must go out in the field now.

"christian"lib
The government does enough to help the poor, the "poor" need to help themselves instead of collecting checks. most of the people the government concider "poor" also manage to have cell phones, cable, cars, nice clothes, get their hair/nails done. I have seen it with my own eyes.
Liberals only interest is GROWING the poor for power.

The poor do not pay taxes! how can they get a break? or do you mean welfare?
and a true conservative cannot be atheist!!duh
GOD
FAMILY
COUNTRY

maybe they consider themselves fiscally conservative.

liberals are lead by myth and emotion
conservative are lead by logic and responsibility

Matt. 7:6
....cast not pearls before swine...

When one prefaces his comment with "If there is a God"....it is useless to engage them in debate about morals or morality.

For dullhammer @ 10:10
Reading deeper into Audi's post, I found following issues:
(*) she talks about "monopoly bookstore" (last I checked, Chapters and Coles ARE NOT the same chain)
(*) her observation generally appears to be restricted to morOntario, common with those who have made Pigtown (aka Toronto) their home

I personally called Christian Publications in (downtown) Calgary, and they told me Lewis books easily available there as well as Calgary Public Library (I actually lived in Calgary for about half of my 45 years).

When it comes to the subject of abortion
There is no disagreement: It is always a tragedy.

What is worse though, always worse, is government intervention. Nobody with any brains whatsoever wants to have a police state setting the rules regarding pregnancy and child bearing.

Good Points
On global warming or the Al Gore cult. We all want to take care of our planet, but we are not to worship it. Be not deceived into taking abortion and gay marriage to a back burner. They speak to the moral fiber of our nation. Follow the "green agenda" and we throw our economic and national security out the window. The left's view on abortion, gay agenda, and global warming will destroy America. Please for God's wisdom for our leaders.

Back to the article...
... I completely disagree with Star's position. Obama's performance at the Saddleback forum was disastrous:
1. "uh, er, uh, uh..." obviously trying to pander to the audience while balancing his liberal rhetoric on the campaign trail.
2. His moral ambiguity came out in full light.
3. His analysis of the Supreme Court was 100% opposite of mine.

But Star's actually got a thorn in her foot about Warren. That's ok; not everyone's going to like him. I also appreciate all the kind folks from KY, AZ, FL, GA, LA, MT, etc... providing their arm-chair opinions about a Pastor several hundred (thousands) of miles away. Why don't you all:
1. Post links to your church/pastor
2. Outline what you have done to advance the kingdom here on earth...

... oh, you can't. I think most of you need to take the planks out of your eyes before commenting on others. And don't reply: "well when I visited So. CA I went to a service...".

But keep up the bashing! Most of you have completely misrepresented Rick's positions!

Billy Graham??
Imagine anyone wanting to be that anti-semite, a man who things he can impress you and scare you into conversion by yelling at you! What a true bozo the man is.

AGE OLD TRADITION
NOW YOU KNOW WHY THERE IS SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE . OBAMA IS JUST USING WHAT HAS BEEN USED SINCE THE PHRASE AND NAME POLITICIAN WAS USED OH SO LONG AGO . TRYING TO BRING GOD IN TO POLITICS IS AS DIFFICULT AS PUTTING A CAMEL THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE .
I AM A BIG FAN OF BILLY GRAHAM AND MY BROTHER IN CHRIST JESUS HAS BROUGHT MANY TO GOD . REPEAPING A MIGHTY HAVEST FOR GOD---HE DOESN ' T YELL--HE TELLS THE TRUTH AND THAT SETS A LOT OF PEOPLES HEARTS AND EARS A BLAZE WITH FIRE . AS MOST PEOPLE ARE USED TO HEARING THE WORDS OF MEN WHO'S WORDS COME TO NOT . ALL CHRISTIANS KNOWING THE WORD OF GOD LOVE OUR SEMITE BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND LONG TO TRAVEL TO ISREAL TO STUDY . VISIT WITH GOD'S PEOPLE .
HAVING RICK WARREN GIVE THE INVOCATION IS UNDOUBTABLY A POLITICAL MOVE BY OUR PRESIDENT TO BE . REV . JEREMIAH WRIGHT DID A LOT OF WORK TO SICK HIMSELF FROM ANY COMMUNITY SETTING . I WILL PRAY FOR MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT BELIEVE AS P . RICK WARREN , JEREMIAH AND OF COURSE I FORGIVE THEM . I PRAY THE LORD GIVES THEM GUIDENCE AND THE SIGHT TO SEE THE REAL TRUTH HERE .
FOR THE REAL--DEAL ABOUT WHAT HOMOSEXUALITY AND LACK OF PARENTS IN THE FAMILY HOME . SEE thetruthaboutmarriage.org
MAY OUR HEAVENLY FATHER BLESS ALL THOSE IN YOUR HOME AND ALL THOSE IN YOUR HEARTS , AMEN .
PASTOR JOHN T . ALFORD
UNIVERSAL LIFE CHURCH
2301 W . PACIFIC AVE . , SUITE # 101
SPOKANE , WA . 99201--5856

I have to agree with Koolmuse
First we took the media, then schools, then we had the doctors, then we took the lawyers, and now onto the church!! Bwahaha!! Now we reach our straw all the way into your milkshake, and we drink in deeply the chocolaty goodness.

AGE OLD TRADITION
NOW YOU KNOW WHY THERE IS SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE . OBAMA IS JUST USING WHAT HAS BEEN USED SINCE THE PHRASE AND NAME POLITICIAN WAS USED OH SO LONG AGO . TRYING TO BRING GOD IN TO POLITICS IS AS DIFFICULT AS PUTTING A CAMEL THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE .
I AM A BIG FAN OF BILLY GRAHAM AND MY BROTHER IN CHRIST JESUS HAS BROUGHT MANY TO GOD . REPEAPING A MIGHTY HAVEST FOR GOD---HE DOESN ' T YELL--HE TELLS THE TRUTH AND THAT SETS A LOT OF PEOPLES HEARTS AND EARS A BLAZE WITH FIRE . AS MOST PEOPLE ARE USED TO HEARING THE WORDS OF MEN WHO'S WORDS COME TO NOT . ALL CHRISTIANS KNOWING THE WORD OF GOD LOVE OUR SEMITE BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND LONG TO TRAVEL TO ISREAL TO STUDY . VISIT WITH GOD'S PEOPLE .
HAVING RICK WARREN GIVE THE INVOCATION IS UNDOUBTABLY A POLITICAL MOVE BY OUR PRESIDENT TO BE . REV . JEREMIAH WRIGHT DID A LOT OF WORK TO SICK HIMSELF FROM ANY COMMUNITY SETTING . I WILL PRAY FOR MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT BELIEVE AS P . RICK WARREN , JEREMIAH AND OF COURSE I FORGIVE THEM . I PRAY THE LORD GIVES THEM GUIDENCE AND THE SIGHT TO SEE THE REAL TRUTH HERE .
FOR THE REAL--DEAL ABOUT WHAT HOMOSEXUALITY AND LACK OF PARENTS IN THE FAMILY HOME . SEE thetruthaboutmarriage.org
MAY OUR HEAVENLY FATHER BLESS ALL THOSE IN YOUR HOME AND ALL THOSE IN YOUR HEARTS , AMEN .
PASTOR JOHN T . ALFORD
UNIVERSAL LIFE CHURCH
2301 W . PACIFIC AVE . , SUITE # 101
SPOKANE , WA . 99201--5856

Rick Warren...

Anyone else notice that persons with '2 First Names' often attain higher levels of power than those without?

"Barney Frank" for example, is a psychopath. Yet, he reached the U.S. Senate?

koolmuse

"You misjudge the brain capacity and/or agenda of the Christian funda...mental!...ists.
That is precisely what they want....maternity prisons... "

Have you ever actually spoken, at any length, to a Christian believer?

Of the many, many, MANY inane and brainless comments I have read on these pages over time, the above is one of the most brainless.

A lot to be said
here about why those 18-29 evangelicals voted for Obama. As a matter of fact, it is yet to be recognized why so many young people in general voted for Obama. History will tell of a deeper trend in this election and this time in history. The conflict between the Baby Boomers and the succeeding generations is beginning to manifest itself more clearly. Much has been said about socialism in this election, especially by the right. Millions of young and thirty-something voters see all of the previous generation as socialists. Our generation will be burdened with the almost insurmountable task of feeding and housing an increasingly aging generation. The great irony here is that only 50 years ago it was much more common for the elderly to be cared for in their waning years in their own children's households.

koolmuse... What Happened?

Really, what did your parents do to you?

It must have been a cruel deed - to make such a child of God turn into a cruel and vile hater of all humankind.

Pity is in order for the saddest poster on Townhall )-:

Gerry
I have question that you pose environmentalism, abortion and the "gay agenda" as the most pressing issues in our country now. To be more precise, it is divisive positions like these that have stalled us for so long. We could have been light years ahead of the world in self-sufficiency if it were not for Ron Reagan. The "gay agenda" is a cry for inclusion and equal partnership in citizenry. As for abortion, I disagree with it, but think that people should mostly mind their business in personal concerns such as these. We should focus on a better future for everyone, despite our personal proclivities.

What?
I thought some of you E-'s worshiped the Christian Lite. "Send me your money, I will pray for you. The man on TV say Amen. The more you send me, the more you will be blessed. The man on TV say Amen." (um that's a song from the 80's).

Stop the double standards. And stop eating your own.

Rick Warren
Star Parker is right when she give the satistics for Obama and the evangelical vote 18-32 yr olds. What an indictment of the pastors and the church for not discipling their congregation. Wew are to vote as Christians not as Democrats or Republicans. So often the church has a worldview the same as the world. They are not tought a biblical worldview in church. As the church goes so goes a nation. Until pastors start preaching and teaching that we are to be salt and light, to affect/change the world vs it affecting/changing us. Lord Jesus wake up your church. We settle for far less than you have for us. May we repent and turn from our wicked ways. Pastors need to call sin sin. To preach the gospel/goodnews so the politicain/people repent and follow biblical values/principles. Until then we will get what we are recieving. It need not be. Pastors must not give credence to folks like Obama and other of both parties. Billy Graham spoke truth to the Presidents he related to. He didn't give his credibility or favor to there unbiblical positions

Typical liberal bullies
I love how you have to come on a conservative site to push people around. I bet it makes you feel good about yourself? get a life!!!
or better yet a JOB!!!!!
you are the moral decay of this country, better yet the disease. I feel sorry for you all that the only standards you have are double standards and tearing down others. I dont know how you sleep at night filled with so much hate, maybe if you took a break from the MSM [aka communist propaganda machine] your sheepishness might wear off in time. You all sound the same repeating the liberal daily talking points as if you have no mind of your own. But dont worry most cases of liberalism wears off in a few years, mostly when people grow up and start being practical, rational, tax payers. As long as you look to the government to better your life you will get no where. Government is the problem not the solution.The only thing we have learned from history is that we have not learned from history.Liberals believe in equal OUTCOME and conservatives believe in equal OPPORTUNITY!
Good luck, I hope you get better soon!

Koolmuse
What an ignorant jerk you are.

Norm Coleman is Jewish, so bite me, you a**hole.


un-koolmuse
"I don't hate mankind...I hate YOU people....Y-O-U.....the rest of mankind hates you too.

My mother was the most wonderful liberal tolerant loving person I ever knew....she even tolerated your breed...but I don't."

who is the racist here??? i love how libutards do not see there own hypocracy!! it is soooo entertaining!!! like Al gore, king of green whose electric bill is $1600 a month!!
hahahahahaha

koolmuse... Momma
"I don't hate mankind...I hate YOU people....Y-O-U.....the rest of mankind hates you too.

My mother was the most wonderful liberal tolerant loving person I ever knew....she even tolerated your breed...but I don't."
---------------------------------------------

I said "Parents", not "Mother".

Apparently your Freudian-slip on "Mother" tells the tale. You are still focused on "Momma". Defending her to the bitter end, in an attempt to reunify with your original Universe, you and Momma.

For Mario
"wiseone slurs:
Subject: Mario
You must be a non tax paying graduate of the public school system if you believe the tax cut Obama plans is anything more than credits as welfare, to pay for the votes he bought."

I didn't post this. Your quotations are even more incompetent than your research.

Abortion
The liberal Democrat idiot(s) who made the comment about "maternity prisons" is a liberal Democrat idiot. It is certainly the responsibility of the state to protect innocent human life, and in fact this is the most important responsibility of the state. Outlawing murders of the unborn is no more intrusive or wrongful that the state outlawing murders of those of us who have been fortunate enough to have been born alive.

I do not know much about Warren, but believe that he and other people of God should speak out more against the holocaust that is abortion. The Catholic Church has finally begun to do so and I am so grateful!!!

Mario and Koolfool...

MySpace is still open boys. Add each other to your buddy (bff) lists... Never know what might pop-up in your conversation :-)

Happy trails!

Mario... NEVER?

Gay Conservative

" I am a heterosexual and would never live your lifestyle."
---------------------------------------

"Never" is a Big Insensitive word buddy. Are you sure you're not a Homophobe?

Sounds like Mr. Gay Conservative's lifestyle is making you feel all squirmy and uneasy inside...

Something you wish to talk about?

For christianlib
Tell me. Did you libs get a DNC talking point on Reagan raising taxes? I write "Reagan cut taxes" and Mario attributes something I never wrote to me and you misquote me.

I didn't say Reagan "never" raised any taxes on anything. I said "Reagan cut taxes." That means tax rates were lower on Jan. 20 of 1989 than they were on Jan. 20 of 1981.

The following is from the JEC Report. JEC is the "Joint Economic Committee" of Congress. It is bipartisan and includes both Senators and House members.

"During the summer of 1981 the ... focus of ... debate was on the Economic Recovery Tax Act ..., the REAGAN TAX CUTS. The core of this proposal was a version of the Kemp-Roth bill providing a 25 percent across-the-board cut in personal marginal tax rates."

"During the 1980s ERTA had reduced personal tax rates by about 25 percent, while the Tax Reform Act of 1986 chopped them yet again."

"The ... income tax burden borne by the top 10 percent of taxpayers increased from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. Meanwhile, the ... income taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers dropped from 7.5 percent in 1981 to 5.7 percent in 1988.

Between 1981 and 1988, the income tax burden of the middle class declined from 57.5 percent in 1981 to 48.7 percent in 1988.

"DURING THE 1980'S ERTA HAD REDUCED PERSONAL TAX RATES BY ABOUT 25%, WHILE THE TAX REFORM ACT OF 1986 CHOPPED THEM AGAIN."

"...individual income tax revenues rose from $244 billion in 1980 to $446 billion in 1989."

You libs are total asses AND hypocrites. Compared to these substantial cuts the nickel & dime increases you list are like farting against thunder.

That Was Close
I almost clicked one check mark out of habit thinking this was another drivel dropping from K. Parker. It's great to read something from a Parker that doesn't mention Palin.

RE: Rick Warren
Joe Biden had a great soundbite during the campaign. Sadly, the media didn't pick up on it. He said that Democrats lost the last two presidential elections in part because they let themselves be portrayed as anti-God.

How could a party that supports abortion and homosexuality possibly be seen as anti-God? Could it be because the bible is so clear on these subjects? Maybe Christians should ignore those parts of the bible because some people don't believe in God. Maybe we should just eliminate Christianity altogether because some people don't want any limits on their behavior.

Yeah, that approach will result in a great society.

Roadkill, Coleman is Jewish
Subject: Franken Wins In Minnesota
Hahahahahahahaha!!!...try winning an lection and then you can whine and crow to your hearts' content. hahahahahahahaha

Lousy comedian, failed radio pundit whips GOP Christian moron.
***********************

Your arguments are about as dead as a "points up" armadillo on a long stretch of hot West Texas highway.

RE: Warren
Hey koolmuse:

"I hate religious fundamentalists who want the..."

Nice to see that you are in the party of tolerance and diversity, embracing all viewpoints. Well stated.

The conflation of abortion with murder
ignores the rights of the pregnant woman. The Islamist view of women is that they are the property of their husbands or fathers and exist solely to bear and nurture their husband's children.

That same mind set is reflected in the religious right's total disregard for pregnant women's concerns and their demands for government intervention to force pregnant women to carry their pregancies to term no matter consequences that may have for her.

From this perspective women are chattel, pure and simple. Once they get pregnant they completely forfeit their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

RE: Rick Warren
Of note is that virtually every President was sworn into office with their hand upon a Bible, ended their oath with "So help me God" and acknowledged a Supreme Being in their address upon assuming the Presidency.

Recently:

Franklin Roosevelt,1945:
"Almighty God has blessed our land."

Harry S Truman, 1949:
"We believe that all men are created equal because they are created in the image of God."

President Eisenhower began his Inaugural, 1953: "My friends, before I begin...would you permit me the privilege of uttering a little private prayer of my own. And I ask that you bow your heads. Almighty God, as we stand here at this moment..."

Dwight Eisenhower, 1953:
“This is the work that awaits us all, to be done with bravery, with charity, and with prayer to Almighty God."

John F. Kennedy, 1961:
"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God."

Lyndon B. Johnson, 1965:
“The judgment of God is harshest on those who are most favored.”

Richard Nixon, 1969:
"As all are born equal in dignity before God, all are born equal in dignity before man."

Gerald Ford, 1974:
"To do what is right as God gives me to see the right."

Jimmy Carter, 1977:
“‘What does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.’”


RE: Rick Warren
Of note is that virtually every President swore into office with their hand upon a Bible, ended their oath with "So help me God" and acknowledged a Supreme Being in their address upon assuming the Presidency.

Recently:

Franklin Roosevelt,1945:
"Almighty God has blessed our land."

Harry S Truman, 1949:
"We believe that all men are created equal because they are created in the image of God."

President Eisenhower began his Inaugural, 1953: "My friends, before I begin...would you permit me the privilege of uttering a little private prayer of my own. And I ask that you bow your heads. Almighty God, as we stand here at this moment..."

Dwight Eisenhower, 1953:
“This is the work that awaits us all, to be done with bravery, with charity, and with prayer to Almighty God."

John F. Kennedy, 1961:
"The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God."

Lyndon B. Johnson, 1965:
“The judgment of God is harshest on those who are most favored.”

Richard Nixon, 1969:
"As all are born equal in dignity before God, all are born equal in dignity before man."

Gerald Ford, 1974:
"To do what is right as God gives me to see the right."

Jimmy Carter, 1977:
“‘What does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.’”

RE: Rick Warren
Ronald Reagan, 1981:
"With God's help, we can and will resolve the problems which now confront us. And after all, why shouldn't we believe that? We are Americans."

Ronald Reagan began his Inaugural, 1985: “I wonder if we could all join in a moment of silent prayer...”

George H.W. Bush began his Inaugural Address, 1989: “My first act as President is a prayer. I ask you to bow your heads. Heavenly Father, we bow our heads and thank you for your Love. Accept our thanks for the peace...”

I expect Obama will say something similar, just days before he undoes the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently issued rules that protect health care providers’ right of conscience to refuse to commit abortion.

Go God!

How far we have drifted as a nation.

Subject: The conflation of abortion with
Gene - Try this logic.

Parenting is a partnership. Mom and Dad are equal in responsibility. Either one can go to jail if a child is mistreated.

So Dad wants the baby, and Mom doesn't. An impasse. Who decides. Mom.

Next time Mom wants the baby, and Dad doesn't. Another impasse. Who decides? Mom.

Mom 2, Dad 0. What is equal or fair about that? Not only that, if Mom wants to keep it, Dad has to pay, even though he has no vote.

I say if Mom wants all the power, she has to accept all the responsibilty.

That is fair. Religious beliefs don't have to be in the picture to see abortion is wrong thinking.

Star
"...My reasoning then was that America's crisis is moral ambiguity. "

Nope the "crisis" is the total failure of conservatism.

mdalton_5117
"Date: Jan 5, 2009 - 8:40 PM EST Subject: RE: Rick Warren
...I expect Obama will say something similar, just days before he undoes the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently issued rules that protect health care providers’ right of conscience to refuse to commit abortion. "

LMAO get a life this BS is nothing to do with healthcare but lots with trivia. Let the hungry starve ; the weak die and the strong fade. You must realise that life is about the good not the failed conservative nonsense

Hal Donahue
It's not trivia to the medical professional who does not want to kill the baby.

We expect a young soldier to refuse an order that is morally wrong. We drag him into court and Court Martial him if he makes a wrong decision.

But we should take that judgement away from a doctor, and force him to follow the order regardless of his beliefs?

You can't mean that.

Mario
Yes, I am conservative or libertarian, depending upon the issue. On economic issues, I am libertarian/conservative. On foreign policy, conservative, on social issues, conservative to liberal. I detest religion, am in the middle on abortion, pro death penalty and gun rights, believe in civil unions, but let marriage be a religious issue without govt involvement.

Koolmuse
Did I say I was a Republican? No, I am a conservative/libertarian. I voted for two libertarians and one GOP in November. In Virginia, I have voted equally in Dem or Rep primaries. In state and local elections, I vote more GOP than Dem, but I split my vote pretty well.

Naturally, you think that if someone is gay or black or Latino, they must be a lib. Otherwise, they aren't authentic minorities. Well, I don't fit into a preset mold.

tolerance
Tolerance does not mean tolerating intolerance.


Warren is no Billy Graham
He is not able to polish his shoes.
I might go so far as to ask if he is truly saved.
He and Obama make a good pair.

gene
Reread what you just wrote.
What an unnatural creature you are.

Time again for some humor
The Master Debater

A sycophant whose name is koolmuse,
Keeps putting his neck in a pull-noose,
While raving and ranting,
Enjoying his panting
Resulting from some form of abuse.

Back to Warren - would he dare?
Warren's Inaugural Prayer (Is.3 and 1 Sam. 8)

Dear heavenly Father, we come here today before you to celebrate the peaceful transition of power in this blessed Republic. As we reflect on the oath to be taken before you today on your Word, we are thankful that many of those who took the same oath and disregarded it will now be retiring from the positions of arrogance and abuse of power. We ask that their lobbying efforts promoted as supplications fall upon deaf ears of those remaining in these marble halls.

We remember the words of Isaiah, who said of the elders and princes of the people, "You have eaten up the vineyard; the plunder of the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor?"

Alas, many of those remain here to oppress us, and are to be joined by those of the same party and desire - even daughters in power who, as Isaiah says, are "haughty, and walk with outstretched necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, making a jingling with their feet."

Oh, Lord, we are about to be revisit the fate of the nation that Samuel served - accepting a ruler who will take our sons as captains and horsemen, take our daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers, take the best of our fields, and not limit himself to only a tenth of our grain and sheep, and we will continue to cry out.

Indeed, today a child shall become our prince and a babe will rule over us, and the people will be oppressed. Lord, take this cup from us, and let all of the elders of this nation resign, and let all of our offices remain vacant as they repent in stench, ropes, baldness, and sackcloth.

Let it be so.

CALIF SON
YES! I saw the FoxNews Special Report on Mosab Hassan Yousef! I ran to my computer to thank FoxNews for its courage in presenting this story. Then I went to church and stood up to tell them about it. I am praying for the safety of this young, brave man. He has been transformed, as you rightly point out, by the power of Jesus' love. It was the verse, "Love your enemies," that touched his heart. The world will be changed only after hearts are changed.

With conservatives like Rick Warren…
we don’t need any liberals. From what I have been reading, this clown Warren is a liberal/gay/left-wing/Commie/Obamanation plant. He supposedly says just enough conservative talk to fool the RINOS, compassionate conservatives, etc., the types real Christian conservatives cringe at. As he kisses queerr rear ends liberals and gays wink at each other knowing the Obamanation is fooling the clueless, ignorant, sheeple again. Might as well have the “Rev.” Wright.

Mrs. Paddy
AudiR10 is wrong when he said that C.S. Lewis was banned in Ontario stores and libraries. I don't know where he heard that but it is not true.

RICK WARREN: THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LEFT !!

Rick Warren is part of the APOSTATE CHURCH. The APOSTATE CHURCH has taken a page from the LIBERATION THEOLOGY of South American Priest who chose to spread MARXISM via the Catholic Church by promoting the CLIMATE CHANGE INITIATIVE via the Evangelical Churches.

JESUS is banned from the pulpits of the APOSTATE and PROSPERITY GOSPEL Churches.
The Liberals now call themselves Progressives instead of liberal. Zebras never change their stripes and a leopard never changes his spots.

Warren is a member of the CFR...i.e. the Council on Foreign Relations. The inner core of the CFR...Council on Foreign Relations is dedicated to the Regionalization of America and eventual ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT as stated in the literature by one of their founders: Col Edward Mandel House who wrote: Philip Dru Administrator

The politics of Republican and Democrat are over...we are now engaged in a battle to save what is left of our country. Our leaders have turned their backs on God and JESUS...we need revival but even the churches have now become lukewarm...all we can do is pray...Carrol Quigley wrote about the oligarchy/CFR that controls our country in Tragedy and Hope because he believed they were too well organized and could not be stopped...maybe he was right.

All we can do is pray now! There is nothing left to do...

Warren:The Political Correct Evangelical
That Rick Warren is not Billy Graham is evident when we compare the life and ministry of both religious leaders. Rick Warren never will achieve what Billy Graham did for one simple reason: Billy Graham had a prophetic ministry for America and the world which was the preaching of the Gospel according to the Scriptures: the life, death, resurrection, and second coming of Jesus Christ and the need of man to repent from his sins and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Warren’s message is driven by social-political interests.
However, the most crucial issue in the life of a prominent religious figure as Warren is that he is compromising the gospel for political gain. As evangelical, Warren is not living up to his biblical tradition.
He must remember that his ministry is not “his” but the Lord’s. As a minister of God his first mission is to preach the gospel as it is and not “watering down” it.

Now more than ever, America needs to hear the voice of God. Our problem in politics and as society is the result of the spiritual bankruptcy that is evident each time we listen and watch the news.

Rick Warren is not only Billy Graham, but he is short from being a prophet as John the Baptist. Jesus said that while John the Baptist was alive he was a light and the greatest among the prophets. John's ministry, and life, came to an end when he admonished Herod for his sinful behavior (Luke 3:19-20). He was imprisoned at Machaerus, a fortress about 9 miles (15 kilometers) east of the Dead Sea. There, he was beheaded.
John the Baptist did not care if his message was popular or not. He understood very well his ministry and he was willing to confront politicians and kings as he did with Herod.
If John the Baptist were alive today, for sure, he would be banned and rejected for telling the truth about corruption and sin among politicians.
Rick Warren falls short as a prophet but found a good place as a “political correct” evangelical.

Pennsylvania Yankee
"I hadn't realized that it was the duty of Evangelical pastors to blindly back the GOP."

So, they're supposed to blindly follow Democrats like Barack Obama who is for infanticide and has publically said so with the vote in the IL Legislature?

What about the so-called pro-life Conservatives who voted for "pro-choice" (read: pro-abortion) President-Select Barack Obama?

The Reverend Warren Is or Isn't
Star--Don't you think it's important to engage the other side? Jesus came for sinners not the just. The Reverend exposed Obama's views it's just we weren't listening. But, we'll see where the Reverend stands when he gives the inaugural invocation. This can be the most radical pro-abortion administration in history. If the Reverend delivers a pro-life message in his invocation we'll know he's firmly on the pro-life side. If not he's just one more obstacle to overcome.

Obama Derangement Syndrome
Many posters here are suffering from Obama Derangement syndrome.

Just like many on the left think anything president Bush did was wrong, some think anything Pres Elect Obama does is wrong.

There are many areas I already have concern over the incomming administration. A close look at his pics for homeland security, sec state and CIA director show a large lack of real experience in foriegn policy experience.

His ecomic policy focusing on Gov instead of private sector employment is not great.

However he has done two good things so far. He has selected Sec Gates to continue on with Sec of Defense, and he selected Rev Warran instead of someone like Rev Wright or Father Pfleger or a Muslim Iman.

No rational person could expect him to pick someone like Ann Coulter to be at his inaugaration but he could have picked a lot worse then Rick Warren.

I voted Republican but like it or not Pres Obama is MY incomming President. Lets Hope Rick Warren asks for our Lord to give judgement to our national leaders and prosperity to our nation and God grants both to us.

Liberty is the issue...
Global warming (or is it climate change?) is NOT the issue- LIBERTY IS!!! Warren, like many modern evangelicals have lost the biggest atribute this country offers and which is in great peril of losing: LIBERTY! The freedom of choice when it comes to the gospel (its a choice if one wants to face the claims of Christ and accept His offer of eternal life) and its also a choice as to the scientists one wants to appeal to when it comes to climate change. Sorry all you group thinkers out there- but the "jury is still out on this subject" and despite Al Gore's screaming meemie outburts to the contrary the scientific community is VERY divided on this issue. But this underscores the issue and others like it in that GROUPTHINK and CELEBRITY WORSHIP has replaced serious study of these and other issues. Warren is representative of this national obsession of needing to agree on things ( I know he doesn't on abortion and gays) . And finally- the issue I have always had with him (I went to his church 16 years ago and have been on-off since)- he is a pastor- Graham was and is an evangelist(and he was with presidents in that spiritual context) and for you Christians out there this is an issue. A pastor should be feeding his flock and an evangelist should be spreading the gospel- I question Warren's focus. I don't say he is wrong to do what he does, but I do believe he may be stretching too far in the direction of the world.

Billy Graham
Billy Graham is not what he seems. He has, since the beginning of his ministry, joined with the Catholic Church and ecumenism.

Patricia-good point...
Yes, Billy Graham has been part of the movement ECT-(Evangelicals and Catholics together) which has agreed not to argue over the gospel (what it is and isn't-the different soteriological views of both) to come together in unison on issues. Whether that is good or bad I don't know-but it is an example of what I call the need to AGREE at all costs. Graham's message I think has been pretty consistent, but I think the prevailing zeitgeist is to have to agree and parse our disagreements down which I believe is the problem. The fact is disagreement and arguing of the points and issues is what leads one to truth. Agreeing over everything without serious study is to me the disease of our age.

Porpoise Driven Life
The Porpoise Driven Life...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Q32xIyoeo


clivesdad
although i completely agree that arguing points and issues leads one to the truth, i have qualms about the way we are arguing points.

it seems to me that many have retreated to media that reflects their own pre-conceived opinions instead of objective truths.

the media than reinforces those opinions by providing only partial or biased facts.

this leads to arguments over facts rather than to truth.

for example, were there wmd in iraq.

the conservative media goes to great lengths to say there was while the liberal media say no.

as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle but unless we can come to agreement on basic facts, the debate is senseless.

i do not have a good answer to this, just an observation and concern.

Response to mdalton_5117
You miss my point. I agree that abortion is wrong thinking in most cases. My point is that we don't want, I don't want, the government interfering in the matter.

If you succeed in equating abortion with murder, you give up your rights to privacy and liberty in your own home. The police state takes over in a matter too intimate and personal to allow the government to be involved. The government's enforcement tools are too blunt and lack the nuances to deal wisely with indivudual circumstances. In short, keep the police out of our bedrooms.

BTW, regarding your argument that the husband is denied the choices currently available to the pregnant woman, bear in mind that it is the woman who carries the greater burden and who suffers the greater impact of child bearing. Hence her choice has greater priority. To say otherwise is to say, as the islamists do, that she is subordinate to her husband in all things.

lib
"for example, were there wmd in iraq.

the conservative media goes to great lengths to say there was while the liberal media say no.

as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle"

What other choices are there between A and not A? LoL?

There was no Christian candidate
Neither McCain nor Obama was remotely a "Christian" candidate -- for that matter, most religious rightists have slammed the nails into Christ's hands for some time now. Clearly, Iraq was an unjust war, and more and more theologians are concluding that warfare itself is incompatible with the teachings of Christ. You cannot be a killer of the unborn nor the born and call yourself a fully convicted follower of Jesus.
On gay marriage, marriage licensing was instituted to prevent interracial marriages. Whether the state approves marriage or not is YOUR issue, but it's not a faith issue. Polygamy, gay marriage, etc., are either wrong or right, but if you need the government to tell you this, you're in bad shape morally. For that matter, I don't need the government to tell me a fetus is a person, that capital punishment is revenge masked as justice, that physician assisted suicide is murder, plain and simple, and that invading countries that never attacked us is murder. Christians on the right and left keep killing Christ -- which is why BOTH his hands are in agony, because BOTH camps keep slamming them.

Rick Warren
Whatever some say, I think Rick is following Jesus' example - he is attending an event and sharing his message with some the New Testament Pharisees would have described as "lost sinners." They who think our modern world does not have those same Scribes and Pharisees, pious zealots who are missing Jesus' message of grace, should review the prior messages. Jesus was a welcome guest at parties hosted by those who did not yet believe in Him. And many believed ere He left the party. So we Christians should celebrate this opportunity. gene, Longmont, CO

rich d
there were old antiquated wmd from the iran-iraq war and there was some evidence that saddam could still cook up some biological weapons.

but it was not the "mushroom cloud" threat that bush and cheney chose to sell.

bob woodwards book spells out in detail how wolfowitz and others decided that wmd was the best argument to sell the american people on going to war.

wasn't the real reason but it was the most salable.


Bob Woodward
Woodward is a self-serving Democrat who has been trying to destroy the Republican Party ever since Nixon. GW Bush trusted him too much and will pay for it.

rowly
hey happy new year you rabble rouser

say what you want about woodward bush did give him unprecedented access to his inner circle and the scenario he lays out has never been denied.

you and i both know the whole iraq thing goes back to the "project for a new american century" that tried to get clinton to invade iraq.

the members of the pnac included jeb bush, cheney, rumsfield, wolfowitz among others.

they had a plan and stuck to it.

i really think their hearts were in the right place and felt that idealistically they could change the mideast by using force to bring democracy.

but they didn't do their homework on the actual cultures they wanted to invade and change.

christianlib
Happy New Year to you,also.

Foreign policy is so 'foreign' to me,it gives me a headache to try to decipher it. The Shadow Government which runs it consists of both parties.

Are the 'Bad Guys'Republican or Democrat? With CFR,Globalists,New World Order enthusiasts being behind it all,I don't think it matters who is in power at the White House. They are just 'figureheads',following orders from on high.

rowly
google "project for a new American century" and you will see the plans for iraq began in the 90's.

i sympathize with your perspective.

why are we still giving billions to foreign countries when we are on the brink of economic collapse.

i mean they always say it is for national security reasons but it just makes no sense to me.

there is a time to take of your own and this appears to be that time.

Woodward is a joke.
And what about the truckloads of stuff moved out just before the invasion and the little kid's sandbox of 550 metric tons of yellowcake that the MSM seemed to ignore?

christianlib
I think it has been in the works for years. Bush1 and Clinton campaigning worldwide together made me wonder what they were up to. Not only AIDS prevention.

I believe our sovereign country's days are numbered. I don't look forward to being dictated to by the UN.

Star is so perceptive!
I totally agree. I wonder if you all thought it was inapropriate (as I did) for that to take place in a church? Warren could have moderated, but by having the candidates there somehow legitimized them. Young people pay attention to that and I believe that is a part of the problem. Pastors, preachers, and priests need to carefully consider before doing something like that. They are helping to shape the future and should pay attention to that. Warren's book bothers me. I bought it to read and then felt uncomfortable with it, so gave it to charity. It seemed like he was trying to somehow "replace" the Bible and that is wrong. The scriptures are there for all to read, so why was that book even necessary? It seemed kind of a like a "trendy" thing. Anyway, now that Warren is no longer "just a minister" but now a Celebrity, are those who follow him recognizing that that is the same as someone who is a movie star trying to influence our beliefs and our vote? We need to rethink the whole voting process here and have it withstand all evils and set a standard because we are America (or what is left of it).

Star Parker...

You got this one right! Thankfully more people than myself are getting fed up with pastors that care more about lifting themselves up than lifting up The Word of GOD!

I am tired of men of God that are like superstar's??? Do not mind how wealthy they become but can they please stick to Ministerial duties or at least tell it like it is.

Billy Graham would and did and look at how we all love him. And his family.