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Monday, July 21, 2008
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gays in the military: What would George Washington think?
by Star Parker
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For the first time since the "don't ask, don't tell" law was enacted in 1993 by President Clinton, the House Armed Services Committee has scheduled hearings to review it. The law disqualifies gays from serving in the military.

Individuals are deemed gay, according to this ruling, if they publicly state so. However, the military is prohibited from asking. Thus, "don't ask, don't tell."

Activists are now pushing for change to allow gays to serve openly.

We can anticipate a technical discussion. Does the presence of openly gay soldiers undermine cohesiveness of units, morale, and discipline? How would retention rates of troops or enlistments be affected?

We can be sure, though, that a discussion about the general moral implications of such a policy will not take place.

Early last year, then-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace called homosexuality "immoral." More fire and brimstone rained down on him than fell on the residents of Sodom and Gomorra for engaging in this behavior.

Rebukes came from Democrats and Republicans alike. GOP Sen. John Warner, a former chairman of the Senate Armed Services committee, writing his own scripture, challenged Pace's view that homosexuality is immoral.

Although a recent Zobgy poll of military personnel shows more opposed to allowing gays to serve openly than favoring (37 percent to 26 percent), the direction of polling of the general public favors the pro-gay forces.

When "don't ask, don't tell" was enacted in 1993, an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll showed 52 percent opposed to homosexuals serving openly and 43 percent in favor. By 2004, Gallup polling indicated 63 percent in favor of allowing homosexuals to serve against 32 percent opposed.

The culture war is like the recipe for boiling a frog. If you drop it in hot water, it jumps out. But if you drop it in cold water and slowly turn up the heat, you get frog soup.

Concession by concession, traditional values are being pushed, inexorably, to the margins of America.

It's a sign of this moral war of attrition that each battle is fought with less and less attention to what it means to the overall war.

Acceptance of openly gay people in the military means the next discussion will be qualification of gay couples for the same benefits received by traditional military families.

In all likelihood, we'll see claims of discrimination if a gay person gets passed over for promotion and intimidated review committees will become increasingly politically correct.

But, hey, in the morally relative world, a glass half empty for one is half full for the other.

Increasing acceptance of homosexuality is viewed by many as social progress. The Seattle Times, for example, calls for a "modernized" military that accepts the openly gay.

But for this traditionalist, it's no accident that building public acceptance of homosexuality is coincident with a general moral unraveling of our society, with all its destructive consequences.

According to Kevin Hassett of the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank located in Washington, D.C., 32 percent of American households today are nontraditional compared to only 28 percent that are traditional, with a mother, father, and children. The remaining 40 percent are households without children. He points out that children in nontraditional households have considerably higher incidences of emotional and educational problems.

I would argue that most of the major costs dragging down our society today -- whether its poverty, entitlements, health care, or housing -- trace to our diminishing sense of personal responsibility and the erosion of traditional values.

Our first great general, George Washington, would be considered politically incorrect today cautioning against believing "that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle" and admonishing, "virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government."

"Gays in the military" is more than a question of military morale. It's about the character of this country that we have a military to defend.

Who would question what George Washington would say about this important issue?

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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On Gay and Lesbian Marriages
Extract from: Part Two: “Discourse on Gay and Lesbian Marriages”, by Ivan Erickson, author of “Song of the Storm Winds” – available via direct links to amazon.com/books on my website, http://www.ivan-erickson.com Please visit my site to read and comment on this and other discourses. Also, please be aware that I love all people of all faiths and ethnicities of whom God loves, and this is the reason why I continue to toil to bring the Truth and the Light of God to all those who are seeking:
“What do I mean by stating that one can overcome this type of sin through perseverance? I specifically mean that there may be those types of sin – such as pedophilia or homosexuality – that you may always have the urge within you to commit throughout your entire lifetime, perhaps. The Apostle Paul confessed that he was afflicted with an urge to commit an unspecified sin, and for which he had prayed three times to overcome. The desire of sin was so intense that Paul described it as a thorn in his flesh! The LORD did not take the urge to sin from him, but more importantly, He assured Paul that His Grace would suffice to help him overcome the burning desire in his flesh every time he was tempted by Satan and Its demons to commit this particular sinful act”.

anderson, your problem is...
that I gave you a list of religions who support marriage equality for same sex couples and your response is that you discredit them because you think they are not one of the "three major" as you put it!

So easy for you in your high and mighty and holier than thou attitude to dismiss ANY religion or person who disagrees with you!

Who exactly do you think you are to dismiss their religious beliefs as being wrong?!?

That's your answer to everything - only religions who agree with you are valid! That is truly pathetic!

I'm sure it would make you so happy if somehow the muslim religion took over our country! But you know what, it is NOT going to happen. You think that would be such a nice thing do you? It is not just gays who would be affected, EVERYONE would be and we would become a country run by dictators and murderers! Is that what you want?

Well all I can say is that I give American people more credit than that and it could never happen!

LovelsEqual,du and the others.
What one of the three major religions accepts homosexuality? Not one. And you have yet to provide any such list of faiths that do. Not wierd offshoot denominations, faiths. Your posts are a master attempt at deflection and half truths. Your conclusions are a product of circular reasoning that anyone can pick up on.

What you fail to do is provide any baseline to your arguements. Nowhere in history has your personal sexual preference, worked for society. You can't name a single one.

Your arguements have nothing to do with civil rights as you claim. Your fight for civil rights is a facade. What you want is something different. You have every, and I mean every civil right afforded to any heterosexual and even more.

You are offered protections under the law no other group has. Hate crimes. If I am robbed, no problem. If you are because someone thought stealing from a homosexual militant was easier, that somehow is worth more punishment.

Mosques are being built at a dizzying pace across the US. How long before their beliefs become a force in politics? And they are offended by you homosexual militants. You people (homosexual militants) are sowing the seeds of your own destruction. Your anti Christian bias only demonstrates the intellectual facade of your empty, non existent civil rights arguements.

accusations and never proof...
I really do wish everyone would read the posts on this thread! Because it would illustrate better than anything else how far off the deep end you have gone anderson!

To you any straight person who disagrees with even a single thing you believe in, is by definition "gay".

And how many times do I have to provide links to a list of religious faiths who DO accept gays and also support marriage equality for same sex couples! You constantly refuse to acknowledge this, just like you won't acknowledge anything else that goes against what you believe in.

And finally, quit using muslims as a scapegoat! Just like I stated on the other thread all gay people abhor how muslim countries treat gay people! But that has NOTHING to do with our fight for Equal Rights in America. Unless you think we should just shut up because we have it better than gays in muslim countries!

We are not going to quit our struggle for Equal Rights just because Iran MURDERS their gay citizens. What they are doing is reprehensible and every country in the CIVILIZED world condemns them for it!

Well, well the nutballs are still here
It is a matter of record that MikeR referred to me as a MF. TH was not happy and deleted it.

No one needs to prove anything to a group of militant homosexuals who have went down in flames all over TH. And are tonight. Watch their posts. All are attack girls who have nothing on their minds but forwarding their agendas. And they lie, and lie some more.

None of these people will answer a simple challenge, or question. Where has homosexuality been accepted in the past?

What religion accepted homosexuality?

And then their moral and intellectual cowardice in failing to decry Muslim killings of homosexuals across the globe. Of their own!

Mike R is a homosexual militant and part of the group that by their own admission challenges every gay article posted here on TH.

Nutballs, every one.


Cat really has got his tongue
The cat really has got anderson's tongue or at least fingers in this case! :)

I had hoped also that he would be able to admit he made a mistake but I guess that's not going to happen.

I just think it's sad that he does the very thing he accuses other people of but oh well, what can we do?

It's just a way of killing a discussion.
MikeR: I myself think it's just anderson's way of killing a discussion! After all how many people will want to stay around to carry on a discussion with these kinds of personal attacks and unfounded accusations?

Have to admit, the conversation totally died off.

Anderson659
No response? What happened? Did the bottom fall out of your alternative reality, do you need extra time to cover your inaccuracies or did you realize that you’ve been completely wrong and are just not man enough to face it?

Anderson659
Another thing, where did you mention anything about my wife?

“It is a fact you referred to me as a sick MF. All because I mentioned your wife” - Jul 28, 2008 - 5:05 AM EST

You never said anything about my wife. I can’t wait to see how you explain this one. Is it just truth you have a problem with or is it all of reality?

Anderson659
Perfect cover for a perfect lie and it only took you 3 days to come up with it. I have never been flagged, nor have I ever flagged anyone.

Where is the rectitude in all this? What kind of man are you who stoops to such actions. You make a claim and when I demand proof, you claim you destroyed it. If that were so, why is there no pattern of name calling on my part? Can you find any post, anywhere, where I’ve used such language or called someone a name?

What about your other absurd claims?

Wrong bio? Your name links right to it.

“A working guy who did 31 years in Forensics. Yes, I ran a CSI unit before it was popular. I have a whole herd of kids, and grandkids, three of whom live full time with me. Every day they remind me of how many steps I have lost. I write because I can no longer be a member of the silent majority, or to stand by and allow others carry my water.”

What about these?

“Mike R still will not admit he is a homosexual posting as a straight man despite being challenged no less than four times, and he will not deny it.” - Jul 26, 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

“I am not a homosexual. Is that simple enough for you to understand?” - Jul 24, 2008 - 9:12 AM EST


“Mike R has been challenged by me to name one period in time anywhere where homosexuality and homosexual marriage was the norm.” - Jul 26, 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

“None, no civilization has ever embraced homosexual marriage.”- Jul 25, 2008 - 8:52 AM EST


They are in the record. This is all of a fit. You have either no grasp of reality or are the worst type of fabricator.

Yes this is how the thread degenerates. A person like you with absolutely no ground upon which to base his argument resorts to lies, innuendo and name calling.
And you think of yourself as a man, how pathetic.

MikeR
People at TH can read. You said it not me. It is a fact you referred to me as a sick MF. All because I mentioned your wife. And I flagged the post as offensive !!! TH didn;t like it either! Care to point that out?

Furthermore you are too stupid to post the right bio. What a moron. Fool liar? Not hardly. There is no need to lie to people like you. That is a description of you. Sick, slick, deception, name calling and no debate.

You are so caught up in your lies you can't remember what you said to start with.

This is what any debate degenerates into with you and the rest of the resident homosexual militants on TH.

anderson659
Show me; show me and everyone else at TH where I called you a MF. Again you make claims yet you don’t answer any of the charges nor counter any of my comments.
The irony is found in your bio.
“I write because I can no longer be a member of the silent majority, or to stand by and allow others carry my water.”

What is it you write, lies, innuendo, slander and paranoia? This is how you decided to speak out? Show me the proof. It doesn’t exist.
That makes you a fool, a lunatic or just a common liar. I hope it’s the former, but I suspect it’s the latter.

anderson do you need a therapist?
I start to worry about you, your paranoia is reaching epic proportions.

Now, can you actually show a response # where MikeR or anyone else called you an MF? Your paranoia is getting so extreme I went through a search of this forum and there is no such name calling!

You are the ONLY one calling people names right now.

Are you even aware of what you are saying?

mikeR LovelsEqual
A liar Mike R ? not hardly. When you posted about your so called wife, I called you on it and a Mf is exactly what you posted among other things. YOU SIR ARE THE LIAR.

And mike R and his resident homosexual pals are miffed. Too bad.

And yes, you are a homosexual, and a militant one at that.. And trying to pose as a straight man to shove your beliefs down the throats of everyone here. Too bad you are such a coward and can't admit it. All your other fraudulent friends did, at least they can hold their heads up in your community.

Quote Mining (again)
Gays in the military is another overblown issue on both sides. But to quote George Washington as a means supporting your own claim is not a good way to make an argument. That's just dishonest quote mining. For one, was Washington even talking about gays when he made that statement? And what does it have to do with letting people serve?

The moral argument against gays comes down to this: some people just don't like it so they label it immoral. They think that somehow qualifies as a good argument to condemn it. But the truth is there is nothing about homosexuality that is inherently harmful. The harm comes from what society inflicts upon it by labeling it as immoral. And to use quote mining to prove that point is just wrong.

Hypocritical...
It's sad that some like anderson659 accuses us of the very same thing he does with almost every post.

The "second" that any proclaimed straight person does not agree with him he labels that person as a "homosexual militant"! In his world there really is no such a thing as a straight person who can possibly feel differently than him.

Read the posts for yourself because he does this at every turn.

He talks about the "gay" agenda and the reality is that there is in fact a "gay agenda" but not the kind of agenda he would have you believe! Our agenda is quite simple really and it is called Equal Rights! And it is called Civil Rights! The same as any other minority would do if they believed they were not being afforded Equal Rights!

Where I work most of the straight people I work with agree with marriage equality for same sex couples because there are a few of us there and they have gotten to know us for who we really are. And they have realized we are no different than anyone else except for the sex of the person we want to spend our lives with.

But again in anderson's world we are just homosexual militants... so be it if he wants to believe that but there is no firm basis in reality to believe that no straight person could disagree with him without being "gay"!

We come on here and attempt to discuss this because we don't have the equal rights. If we had "true" equal rights there would be no point - again this is no different than any other minority would do if they were denied equal rights. Same as the fight to end black slavery or fighting for inter-racial marriage equality.


anderson659
Is this some kind of joke? Are you that far gone or are you just putting us on?

“Mike R still will not admit he is a homosexual posting as a straight man despite being challenged no less than four times, and he will not deny it.” - Jul 26, 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

“I am not a homosexual. Is that simple enough for you to understand?” - Jul 24, 2008 - 9:12 AM EST


“Mike R has been challenged by me to name one period in time anywhere where homosexuality and homosexual marriage was the norm.” - Jul 26, 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

“None, no civilization has ever embraced homosexual marriage.”- Jul 25, 2008 - 8:52 AM EST

“In other posts mike R refers to me as a mother f%%%%%” - Jul 26, 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

I have never called anyone, on any post, in any thread, ever, a “mother f%%%%%”. I do not use that type of language, not here, not anywhere in my life.

You sir, are a liar.

mikeR and du.
Mike R still will not admit he is a homosexual posting as a straight man despite being challenged no less than four times, and he will not deny it.

Same with du, another homosexual militant who tries to post as a different gender to cover his militant homosexual attacks on others as coming from a straight person. It is a farce. They can't keep their stories straight. They all post together and are a circle of militant homosexuals who are "residents" so to speak.

Mike R has been challenged by me to name one period in time anywhere where homosexuality and homosexual marriage was the norm. He is incensed to the point of apoplexy because none exists. This defeats any legitimate arguement he has. History has taught us, homosexual marriage is not normal, and does not work.

It eats this bunch to the core because there is no legitimate answer to my challenge, they know it, and it defeats every arguement they set forth.

In other posts mike R refers to me as a mother f%%%%%. du squats on any columns remotely related to homosexuals and challenges anyone who believes different.

They are part of a ring who challenge anyone here on TH using any means necessary. That is their game.

Mike R
If you looked at the subject of marriage in full: civilization hasn't exactly embraced heterosexual marriage either. The failure rate, domestic violence, abandonment and abuse of children reiterates the natural tendencies men and women have of not getting along well enough at all.

Men considered women property and/or subordinate to them and heterosexual men enable the laws that still make child brides a reality, even among the fringe in America and an every day occurance in the Third World.

Rather than define what marriage hasn't been among a class of people who haven't had as much opportunity to be SUPPORTED, even though gay people TRY to embrace marriage, it's heterosexuals who have a lot of explaining to do.
But don't feel any obligation whatsoever to not only explain how they fail in marriage by half or more, but why gay people have to pay the price for it.

what's it to you, Rich D?
Seems like you love to come in attacking me, Rich D, than having anything germane to add to the discussion.
When you posted, I hadn't known anything about Sherrie Shepard's comments.
For the record, it's appalling that these two black women did what they did and it's on them.

I was smarter, I used reliable birth control (that a doctor tried to keep from me regardless of meeting the criteria). So, yeah...I could judge them as incredibly irresponsible and several babies paid the price of it.

But when someone ELSE'S guilty concious makes them a crusader against another citizen's opportunity for medical intervention, adoption, marriage or other supportable actions....yeah, there's a problem.

Get a life Rich D, if you have to attack me as soon as you see my name on a thread, you've got issues that aren't normal.

in any given workplace
you're going to have people who can't get along.
In a military situation, if someone from the North, can't get along with someone from GA...you don't pitch the person from GA who is competent and doing their work.
If someone can't get along with blacks, knowing full well blacks are present, you don't pitch the black folks.

So in an all volunteer military situation you don't pitch the gay people in favor of those who can't get along with gay soldiers.
Especially if the issue isn't about the competence of the gay person for the gig and certainly not pitching gay people in favor of CRIMINALS.

Treating gay soldiers unequally is inhumane and places potentially damaging pressure on them no other soldier has to endure.

There still are few here who know the definition of JUSTIFYING this treatment in ANY arena of gay people, as opposed to simply rationalizing it.

anderson659
Here’s more for you:
I am not convinced that allowing gays to serve openly in the military is such a good idea. Furthermore, I am not willing to concede the point based on arguments put forward in this thread.
How can I maintain this position and still be part of some vast gay conspiracy? And, can you show where and how Du, AlPha Omega or anyone else has come to my defense?

anderson659
Now, this is how you counter someone’s argument:
Your question - What civilization anywhere in time embraced homosexual marriage?
My response – None, no civilization has ever embraced homosexual marriage.
Now, the debate – I say that fact has no bearing on the current debate because in and of itself, it proves nothing. There are many similar facts that support this. Your point, presumably, is that since no other civilization has done such a thing, then it must be bad. This is wrong because we live in a civilization that has done many things that no other cililvation has ever done before and it has worked out fine. Two great examples are our level of freedom and opportunity, and our belief in equality amongst races. Those two things help America to be the greatest civilization that ever existed.
Here’s your opportunity – counter my argument by showing how the homosexual aspect is not the same or how the initial fact does carry water. There are many other ways in which you can respond to my argument. Consider what I wrote and refute it; simple as that. Remember to focus on the matter at hand. That you have strong feelings in this issue is obvious. It’s the basis of those feelings that need to be examined.

anderson659
Once again, name calling, slander, innuendo, insults, yet not one quote of mine or anybody else’s to substantiate your claims. In addition to that, you have still not countered one of my points. You didn’t even address the points in my last comment to you. You react; you don’t think.
Here’s how to counter a point:
Your claim – “all you did throughout this thread was dismiss my points, and those of others because you have no answer to them “ False
Proof:
To Anomimus, 7/22, 3:06pm EST - allowing gays to serve openly in the military would have a detrimental effect on recruitment and retention. In that case, I have already acknowledged earlier in the thread that that is a valid point that deserves full consideration
To Icedog, 7/22, 1:09pm EST – [you have] a point there. I would have to be exhausted to the point of dropping or completely overwhelmed in my deepest thoughts to not be affected by the image of naked women showering
See? Those are direct quotes from the thread that show your statement is wrong. That’s how the process works.
I don’t disparage people who disagree with me, I disparage people like you who don’t debate, who don’t substantiate and who hypocritically accuse others of doing what they are doing themselves. Come on; are you really incapable of supporting your accusations or countering my arguments?

MikeR and his nonsense.
No Mike R, all you did throughout this thread was dismiss my points, and those of others because you have no answer to them. Your posts disparage people who disagree with you.

You wait to respond to posters who do not hold your views with verbal judo instead of facts. Yes you are a homoesxual, you would not deny it when you posted your slithering worming response when I stated my opinon and, it is obvious you are. Typical of a person who is so ashamed of themself.

All of the rest of your circle have admitted it now. Du, AlPha Omega, all are homosexuals who just happen to tune in when you do. And come to your defense. And of course you don't know them, right?

Coincidence MikeR ? Yeah right.

So Mike R, answer the issue. What civilization anywhere in time embraced homosexual marriage? Forget about a civilization that succeeded, just name one where it was the norm in history.

You can't and it eats you to your core. It nullifies any arguement you have because history, like it or not is what we learn from. And humans learned that homosexuality does not work.

So Mike R, is there anything about that point you don't understand? So refute it, this is at least the tennth time you have been asked ! Go on, Mike R, give it your best slithering posting judo, to deny that history places any role in the decisions of man.

the prurience of it all
Elaine Donnelly and the others who want to maintain DADT (which has NEVER been enforced correctly) or an outright ban, their ENTIRE interest was SO prurient, their information either outright distortions or decades old data and anecdotal, not anything indicative of typical of gay people.

So pathetic. And it's true what I said, the military is responsible for disciplining the ranks AGAINST their prejudices, not allowing them to CONCEDE to them.
Of course, no one addressed that. And no one addressed how redundant and academic the debate is since gay people ALREADY have served and shared quarters and broken bread with their fellow soldiers.

And that countries of EU and Israel have no restrictions and open service is successful. And loveisequal is right. Our policy is like that of terrorist countries, DO we want that?

I DO know Dennis personally
And I reminded him that his older son is of age to join the military. But he won't. I told Dennis that he gave his son much priviledge and opportunity, but he didn't do it alone. There were gay soldiers who sacrificed and died or were maimed so that he had the right and freedom to vilify their open service at home, and keep his BMW driving son from having to make the cut.
Perhaps a thin gay line between his sons and he wasn't interested in that line staying there and openly.

Dennis always told me I disturbed his thoughts sometimes because of MY moral clarity, and this was one of those times.

whatever you say..
anderson: sure read the other column - I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to defend myself every time you get into a rant. I'm here to talk like everyone else. If you want to discount my opinion because I'm gay - that is your choice and quite honestly I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I'm gay and I have opinions like everyone else. Last time I checked that is not a crime.

I have gone out of my way to be civil even when you purposely try to evoke an emotional response. And I exercise my right not to let you get an emotional response from me.

On both sides of the issues we are human beings and are not perfect. No one but you has said that we try to claim we are perfect. Human beings make mistakes - it is part of being human.

Clearly people on both sides are passionate about their beliefs - I for one just desire an open dialog.

Anderson659
Get a grip on yourself.

I am not a homosexual. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Yes, I condescend to anyone who resorts to name calling, personal attacks and innuendo instead of addressing a single point of mine.

You have actually not countered a single point of mine, nor have you provided a single quote of mine to support any of the claims you have made. Do you grasp that fact?

In your latest post, you claim amongst other things, that “all of his posts show he is merely an agent of disinformation and not debate.” A debate is a contention by words or arguments. That is exactly what I have done. You have done nothing even remotely like that. Disinformation is: false information deliberately spread in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth. You are doing exactly that when you make the claim that “A core group of militant homosexual posters by pre arrangement has decided they will intimidate and demean anyone who posts here in defense of an article that appears about homosexuals”

With each of your posts, you do exactly what you claim I have done. And another thing, just how on earth does someone use intimidation on a blog? That’s impossible.

Do you realize that I agreed with Icedog that the shower issue is a good point? Do you realize that I agreed with you and others (if that actually was your point) that gays should not be allowed to serve openly if that was going to hurt recruitment and retention?

Come on now. Show me and the rest of the world how right you are and how wrong I am by actually taking a quote of mine and proving one of your accusations. Or better still, why don’t you try and counter one of my arguments that you say are so wrong.

Dennis Prager column
The same militant homosexuals that demeaned and villified every poster attempting to engage in a rational debate here, also posted on Prager's column on the 15th. Of course none of them know each other.Yeah, right.

Take a minute and look the posts over. No debate, just attack. And their theme is the same. Submit to militant homosexual beliefs or else. Watch how the next column is attcked by the same people, at the same time. Coincidence? not hardly.

Several posts offer a clear warning to those who would stick by their beliefs.

MikeR /LovelsEquals, etc.
Mike R did not deny he is a homosexual posting here as a straight man as I posted. He hopes everyone missed that, read his answer carefully. He does not deny it. Note how the other admitted militant homosexual posters came to his defense immediately.

A core group of militant homosexual posters by pre arrangement has decided they will intimidate and demean anyone who posts here in defense of an article that appears about homosexuals. Mike R appears to be an integral part of that arrangement. He fancies himself the intellectual of the group.

Mike R then gives everyone his best shot at being as disingenuous as he can be. Mike R posts on threads here and people get tired of him responding to them as if they were beneath him, and he is some sort of all knowing dispenser of righteous information. All he can do to me is try to be as hateful and condescending as his intellect allows. A hollow, shallow attempt without facts.

Nothing but cheap words.

Mike R does not deny he is a homosexual. He carefully tries to worm his way around admitting it. And he will not admit it because he has to play out his being straight farce posting here.

The problem is his farce about maintaining a cover so all here will buy his stories. And now all of his posts show he is merely an agent of disinformation and not debate.

Read his posts carefully and that of his cohorts. They are vitriolic, anti Christian and are chapter and verse out of the militant homosexual handbook.

also it should be noted...
that the US is getting pretty isolated on this. Note that we are paired with countries like Iran and Libya. Is that truly who we want to be paired with?

Now on to other things...
I stated in one of my first posts at the top that I am gay but since it was quite a while back I'm just stating it again so there is no misunderstandings....

That said here's my take on this 'don't ask/don't tell' policy.

If there is anything that has to rate as equally important to the marriage equality issue to my community, it would have to be probably one of two things: 1) Gay/lesbian people being attacked and even killed because of who they are or 2) Gays not being allowed to serve their country openly.

So for the moment I'll concentrate on #2.

Gay people serve their country for the same reasons that any straight person does, simply because they love their country and are patriotic! Like anyone else they put their LIFE on the line and die for our country! They don't do this for 'gay street USA' - they do it for EVERYONE! If you've never been in that situation (I have - I was in the military for 10 years) you probably don't realize just how "incredibly" difficult and painful it is to have to HIDE who you are as a PERSON and HUMAN BEING! When you combine that fact that any gay person serving knows he/she will have to do this going in and yet STILL they love their country enough to do it - well let's just say that should tell you something about their character! They are willing to go through this pain and suffering because of that LOVE for their country.

How can we as a country deny them the simple human dignity to be able to be themselves?

Gay people know what the military is and know how to act appropriately like anyone else.

Other countries make it work, so can the US. Did they have to make concessions to make it work? Probably so but it was the right human decency decision to make...

Here is a link to a list of countries who allow gays to serve OPENLY:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/solomon/Documents/posters/Whi chList.pdf

All I ask is that you consider the points I have raised along with other posters.

anderson..your point about AlphaOmega...
is true - I won't even deny that. But what is your point? You honestly think because one person did this that everyone who posts something contrary to your beliefs must be doing the same thing?

Not I or anyone else ever claimed that all gay people do the right thing - I think AlphaOmega made a bad decision as well. But you are NOT rooted in reality when you seem to apply that to the entire gay/lesbian community. I'm sorry, nothing personal intended but let's face it - that IS paranoia!

If I knew him I would be the first to get on to him - it was wrong but geez get over it, ok?

Or the other choice is to let paranoia run your life I guess..

Are we supposed to care
what George Washington would have thought?


the military's duty
Is to not allow recruit's PREJUDICES get in the way of their effectiveness. There shouldn't be any based on religion or gender or orientation or color. Period.
And the military is responsible for unit cohesion for that reason.

Conceding to prejudice is what makes serving properly the problem, not the presence of committed and talented gay soldiers.

Elaine Donnelly looked like an idiot and Star Parker would have equally been gob smacked trying to argue against actual experienced ex servicemen.
Our soldiers are FREE to choose service instead of being drafted, and it's STILL a choice to not serve if being alongside a gay soldier is a problem.

I know plenty of ex service people gay and straight who are in LAPD now, and LAPD has similar environments. They aren't allowed any prejudice either.

hey icedog
Men segregated from women, is not only a matter of privacy, but of trust and physical disparaties (and assumed ones).
But you're working from a prejudice that is allayed through redundance.
Gay men and women HAVE ALREADY shared intimate spaces with their hetero counterparts and did so honorably, ably and with courage.

So the hissies being thrown about what WOULD happen, is again, conjecture trying to pass for conclusions.

And your challenge is about GENDER, not sexual orientation. Two separate issues unto themselves.
Your prejudice is assuming gay men don't have the restraint necessary to be effective in uniform.


anderson659
This is no joke. Your level of comprehension is so low, it seems like you can’t read English. Since that is obviously untrue, you must be so agitated that you are incapable of considering what has been written rationally. Take a breath and think before you post for goodness sake.

anderson659
Have you got a screw loose? Each of your posts is more extreme than the one before? I never denied there were attacks on Star or on the anti-gays in the military crowd. I said I never attacked either. When you claimed it was all one sided, I said that it whet both ways. Can’t you stay consistent with your own words and comments?
Of course you don’t believe who I am. As you yet to make a single comment grounded in reality, it makes sense that I can’t possibly be who I say I am because I don’t conform to your personal idea of what reality should be.
Your idea of trading emails borders on paranoia. Why would I have to do such a thing? I’m a regular at TH and I comment on threads all the time.
I have never claimed to speak for anyone but myself. Since you seem to be unwilling or unable to actually respond to any of my points, do you think you could find quotes of mine that substantiate any of the accusations you make?
Finally, I never said history is irrelevant. I said that the idea that homosexual marriage is bad because no civilization that had homosexual marriage survived is not valid because no civilization has ever survived no matter what. The concept is the same as saying no civilization that didn’t have my magic rock ever survived. Do you understand? Your analogy doesn’t fit. A more accurate one would be: would you buy a computer program that said I’m an empty box; computers and programs haven’t’ been invented yet.
Seriously, are you so limited in scope that you can’t even identify my points let alone counter them? Try something simpler. Find a quote of mine and say something about that.

MikeR/ LovelsEqual
Your comments concerning my supposed lack of reading comprehension is a mirror of your own posts and views. I find your reponse amusing.

If you took the time to read all of the posts here the atacks on believers and myself are plain. The attacks on Star Paker by Will and others are personal and vindictive. They are the politics of personal destruction practiced by militant homosexuals.

You must of missed all of that, right?

As to a 60 something straight man, that certainly can remain your story if you want to maintain the facade you present. It is typical that a pseudo intellectual homosexual or closet homosexual such as yourself chooses this seemingly benign appearance. You maintain that fraud in an attempt to sell your story to believers.

Another straight poster ended up outing himself as homosexual accidentally on another column. Alpha Omega.Forgot himself in his passion to demean others.

You are no different. Since this is an opinion column, it is my opinon you are not truthful. And since other homosexual posters and yourself seem to have traded e-mail addresses and gather to post every time a homosexual column is run, I feel safe in my presumption.

And since you presume to speak for others as to what I am, you are entitled to your own opinion. From the responses I have received, it appears my posts have struck nerves with those that are tired of militant anti Christian homosexuals shoving their views down the throats of everybody.

Now as to history. Homosexual marriage has never worked. You try to tell people here that hiatory is not relevant.

Would you buy a computer program that stated:

Buy me, please. I have no platform that I have worked on anywhere, and everywhere I have been tried has failed. I have satisfied buyers but have no history of useage. And I come with no warranty,

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Washington's position on homosexuals
Washington's position on homosexuals in the military seems to be a reach on Mrs. Parker's part.
If Washington had taken a stand on the issue that was different from public opinion, or radically altered the military with a new vision, then his actions would have been more relevant. Washington believed in discipline and enforcing the rules. He lead by example.
Her argument seems tantamount to saying we should not teach Spanish in school because Martin Luther King didn't speak Spanish.
Perhaps a better historical analogy would be the formation of all black units in the Union army during the Civil War. What would Lincoln say about prioritizing military success vs. social norms?

Confusion
A lot of people seemed to be confused about what Don't ask, Don't tell is. A lot of you think that by repealing DADT, gay troops will come screaming out of the closet. A lot of you also think that it's okay for gay troops to be gay when off duty. These are both wrong.

For starters, the law says that you can't tell anyone at anytime. That means you can't tell any civilian - including your own family members.

In civilian society, gay people choose when and how to come out to someone else. That's what will happen in the military, too. Gay soldiers are not going to announce their sexual orientation in front of formation - they are going to tell their closest friends at an appropriate time.

Anderson659
Well, you certainly confirmed my suspicions about you. You are either not reading or have absolutely no reading comprehension skills.

I think my life style has been fairly successful. I am a 62 year old Viet Nam vet with 3 grown children and a wife. In my posts, I have made it clear than I am not convinced about gays in the military, but want the matter debated. In that debate and in my last post to you even, I have acknowledged some legitimate concerns about the matter.

If you find flaws in my logic or reasoning, then why don’t you point them out? Show where I’m wrong and why. Perhaps you could start by pointing out where I’ve been intellectually dishonest.

You seem to portray all the qualities you rail against. I have never attacked the character of anyone, yet you attack mine. Furthermore, this thread is filled with attacks from both sides and ample chastising of homosexual posters. Do you really not see this?

As for Star, I have not spoken against her, but I have spoken against the validity of George Washington’s opinion in this matter.

Finally, I am at a loss as to your comments about being anonymous. All of us on this thread, left and right, gay or straight are basically anonymous, even you Mr. Anderson. As I said, you are the one actually attacking and I can’t imagine what you mean by intimidation. If I were you, I would be hesitant to criticize another’s education given your inability to comprehend reason or express yourself.

MikeR
Still eats you and you circle of queen posters that your life style is a failure, and no one will say, ohh, I am so sorry. As far as digging a hole with my posts, that would be you and your other queens contention.

Not a fact, just subjective. Many think otherwise, and I believe your posts are really deep, wide and smelly. You use that phrase when people fail to buy into your convoluted logic.

Your reply to my post was another example of intellectual dishonesty. And you may include the rest of your posts after that as well.

As I said, you and your circle of queens, attack, attack, and attack each and every poster that offers a different opinion than yours.Never is a homosexual poster chastized for their views.

You post here and hide behind shadow names because you will not debate anyone on equal terms because you will lose. So you hide, attack and try to intimidate others.

Star Parker has you and your queens beat by a mile. She is open. Why not post your names, and let's see what speedbumps in life you all have had? Afraid ? All you can do is criticize and hide.

MikeR you are pathetic, and a poor excuse for someone who has an education. You should ask for your money back.

Are we going to hear the same about
Sherri Shepherd's abortions from du?

Thought not.

Nonsense
I personally have been acquainted with a few veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, men and women, who are "gay", and who have served with honor, bravery and distinction, and been decorated as a result. As far as I am aware, they have been highly regarded by their superiors and their comrades. They are professionals. They have never been known to "advertise" or flaunt their private sexual orientation . . . even among their non-gay comrades who knew of their private sexual orientation and respected and accepted them anyway. I have had several conversations with veterans who served with people they knew were gay. For the most part, they said they didn't care as long as the individuals in question did their jobs and obeyed the rules . . . which they did. They exercised self-control and practiced respect for others precisely BECAUSE they are professionals.
The point is, there are ALREADY laws in the military against sexual harassment . . . of ANY kind. Just ENFORCE them, period.
With all due respect to George Washington, does Ms. Parker really believe that one MUST be religious in order to have morals and ethics? Some of the most moral, kind and compassionate people I have ever known have been atheists, and some of the most "Christian", in behavior, have been Buddhists, Jews, Sikhs, atheists and Pagans.


The thin Gay Line.......................
If Washington was confronted with this issue at Valley Forge, he'd of prayed first, thanked the Lord for Fresh Troops, and then made a company out of them.
Result would be to fold, one it fills a needed goal of filling a fighting unit, and two if it is wiped out then there are that many fewer Gays to worry about.

Anominus
I think in your haste you may reacted instead of actually responded to my post, which is a continuation of a discussion of multiple postings.

First, I am not suggesting that we apply civilian social "standards" to the military. I am saying out right that the military has a unique social standard that shouldn’t be compared directly to civilian standards.

Despite any refractory quality to your rear end, you are misunderstanding the use of the term indiscriminate. This is not to imply that they are out there gunning down anything that moves. It is saying that that the personal quality found in most civilian killings is not present. Yes, our command and control of offensive weaponry has greatly improved, but that does not change the dynamic involved. There are still many times when individuals are far removed from the heat of a fire fight yet still launch substantial firepower.

Next, you completely fail to grasp the point of the fitness center. The people involved there are purchasing a service. Such purchases are usually based on choices. For example, when you go to the ice crème shop, you pick the flavor you want to eat. They don’t pick it for you. But, when you enlist in the military, you give up much of your individual choice and variety. It is therefore the opposite of the fitness center or ice cream shop.

Your point, however crudely made, could be interpreted to say that allowing gays to serve openly in the military would have a detrimental affect on recruitment and retention. In that case, I have already acknowledged earlier in the thread that that is a valid point that deserves full consideration.

It seems to be an axiom that those who cry prejudice and ignorance the loudest often display it the most. Conventional wisdom around here is that this is a trait of liberals.

MrClean
Even four seperate living quarters wouldn't work. Imagine boot camp....if the military believed it acceptable to place forty 18-25 year homosexuals in the same sleeping/shower accomodations....what would be the argument for not putting the straight men and women together?

...and if anyone here believes a bunch of young men can sleep and shower with naked young women and avoid any issues (because they took an oath to defend their country!)....I'm glad you hold the military in such high esteem, but.....

MikeR
"Comparisons between civilian and military norms are difficult at best."

Then why do you suggest that we apply civilian social "standards" to the military?

"The military, especially when it comes to indiscriminate types of killing, does tend to stretch the laws of nature and social behavior."

This displays your prejudice against the military, as well as your ignorance. Killing your enemy or the people who would harm your loved ones is a perfectly natural response. "Indiscriminate" my shiny rear end! Our military is the most accurate group of killers in the world. That is what they are trained to do, in order to defend the country they love.

"Men and women at my local fitness center should have separate showers and locker rooms, because they want to and are willing to pay for the service or go somewhere else."

Well then, if because "they want to" is a good enough argument for them, why is it not good enough for the majority in the military to simply not "want" to share a shower with a homosexual? They don't exactly have a choice to "go somewhere else," so why should they be forced to do something they don't want to do? Or maybe they should just all leave the military?

Hetero rights, cont
The only real solution would be to have four separate quarters, but then what do you do with the bisexuals or the transgendered?

I married a female sailor and she was always complaining about the sexual activities of the gay/bi female sailors in her berthing spaces.

Can you imagine the bath house behavior in the gay mens berthing? Maybe a slight deviation from the military norm?

I cannot see how allowing Gays in the military would work, despite the feelings or desires of the civilian community.

Hetero rights, cont
The only real solution would be to have four separate quarters, but then what do you do with the bisexuals or the transgendered?

I married a female sailor and she was always complaining about the sexual activities of the gay/bi female sailors in her berthing spaces.

Can you imagine the bath house behavior in the gay mens berthing? Maybe a slight deviation from the military norm?

I cannot see how allowing Gays in the military would work, despite the feelings or desires of the civilian community.

What about Hetero rights?
As a Heterosexual I have the right to live and bathe in an atmosphere free of sexually preditory stares and invitations.

Everyone knows men, gay and straight, are sexual pigs. Most men are willing to have sex with just about anyone of their chosen sex. If openly gay men were allowed to share the berthing and shower spaces, with straight men, wouldn't the staight men have every right to feel that their living spaces had become a 'Hostile Enviorment'?

If you are female 20-40 with a nice body and don't agree with me, send me your address, I'll come over and sit in your bathroom while you take a shower and in your bedroom while you sleep. While I promise not to stare, I will be prone to sneaking glances. While I promise not to touch, I might just fantasize about touching you. You see, though I will be behaving, I will still be attracted to you. Would you like to live that way for YEARS on end?

icedog
Well, yes and no. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, but not necessarily for the duck. Comparisons between civilian and military norms are difficult at best. The military, especially when it comes to indiscriminate types of killing, does tend to stretch the laws of nature and social behavior. But there is a point there. I would have to be exhausted to the point of dropping or completely overwhelmed in my deepest thoughts to not be affected by the image of naked women showering. Some things do run to the core. But then, my wife thinks I’m a dog and that not all men are like me.

Men and women at my local fitness center should have separate showers and locker rooms, because they want to and are willing to pay for the service or go somewhere else.

MikeR
Yes, most military members do view qualities such as loyalty, commitment, and sacrifice differently than most civilians. However, you are sadly mistaken if you believe laws of nature and social behaviors change just because one puts on a uniform.

If it is acceptable to knowingly force 1,000,000+ Americans to sleep and shower with those who may find them sexually attractive - in order to appease a fringe element of our society - than we are publicly stating, “There is nothing wrong or immoral with this policy”.

I say what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Please finish this statement, “Men and women at my local fitness center should have separate showers and locker rooms, because……”

sodomites vs the military
Prior to WW2, the the Rumanian Army, and parts of the Hungarian Army allowed openly "gay" men the join the army.The Albanians were also in on this. Within 5 yrs after this, these militaries had generals wearing rouge walking around their respective capitals. When Hitler marched through these countries, the people were so angry with these girlymen, that they'd rather join the Wermach, than be part of a femenised army. Just a piece of true history

icedog
Was that a serious challenge? I thought it bordered on self-contradiction.

The key aspect is necessity. As you have pointed out, military life makes demands different and far greater than civilian life requires. In some respects, the aspect unisex/communal living pales in respect to killing, witnessing death and possibly getting killed yourself. So in regard to your challenge, having openly gay members in the military is acceptable, but public unisex showers, dorms, and restrooms are not because the military is of a completely different nature than the rest of the world. Rules of behavior, laws, social relationships and the concepts of loyalty and sacrifice are all different from their civilian counterparts.

Now, I’m not conceding the issue of gays in the military. Heck, I’m not even sure about the expanding roles of women in the military; but I can’t resist a challenge.

Let's try again
I'm not surprised that not one "pro-gay military" supporter accepted my challenge, but I'll try one more time....

Reply # 200
Date: Jul 21, 2008 - 6:27 PM EST Subject: America & Unisex Showers

Some people believe openly gay members should be able to serve because their only reference is their own life and experiences.

If you work at Sears or IBM it doesn't matter if Tom is gay...at the end of the day you each go your own way. However, in the military you often are in training and deployed environments where you must live, sleep, and shower together.

If you think there's no problem forcing people to live and shower with those who may be sexually attracted to them, then let's do away with all male & female accomodations throughtout the country.

I'm sure you won't mind if your wife and daughter shower with a bunch of men down at the fitness center....or if that guy staring at your daughter follows her into the restroom at the mall.

I challenge anyone here to explain why having openly gay members in the military is acceptable, but public unisex showers, dorms, and restrooms are not.

reply to Alex
I never said anything about the "evil military" at all; I'm not that kind of liberal. I'm talking about you right-wingers; you keep saying that gays are already in the military, which I never deny. However, many conservatives don't want them there, as the posts on this column make clear. I am pleased that you recognize that there are gays who genuinely want to serve their country--one of the godparents of my older daughter is gay, and served as a naval officer. He had an honorable career and served his country. He is a family friend, and was perfectly willing and able to fulfill his obligation to his god-daughter if my wife and I died before she turned 21.

Ed'
Perhaps you never witnessed the number of men who tried to get out by claiming they were gay. It reached a level where it was considered a joke. But while I had no contact with Marines, it is safe to soy that you did serve with homosexuals. One of them may even have saved your life. As for the Army, they were there in Viet Nam, but as in life at home, they kept it quiet. In my service, I overheard too many confessions to not have a good notion of the conscience and behavior of a good many soldiers, Catholics at least. When I would question how freely (or perhaps lightly) Father granted absolution, he told me that these men were fighting and sometimes dying for all of us and their sacrifice showed their true nature. The rest was on the surface and paled in comparison.

Anderson659
I’ll answer your basis premise, it just doesn’t matter.

No civilization that accepted:
The type of equality that allows Parker to be who she is,
The individual freedoms that we enjoy,
The opportunity to succeed with which we are blessed
And of course,
homosexual marriage has survived.

But then no civilization in history has survived forever, no matter what.

Try to avoid numbers games in your reasoning. They are a waste of time and also don’t matter. You can provide a list of bad homosexual and someone can provide a list of good homosexual. Then the same can be dome with heterosexuals. In the end, all it proves is that people are the same no matter what their sexuality.

And as far as nasty posts, and odd-ball people, no group, straight or gay, liberal or conservative, seems to have the monopoly. For example, if I wanted to laugh about someone digging themselves into a hole, your posts would provide ample material.

AynRand Writes:
"es, I bet a bunch of queens would be a very effective volunteer army. First mission: redesign the uniform. Decorate the barracks."

This little gem proves how little the anti-gay (self-delusional moniker: "pro-family") activists really know. Read my earlier post of the top 10 myths believed by the anti-gay crowd. They think they are well educated and are more than qualified to not only discuss gay issues but also prescribe solutions for us as well. Unfortunately they demonstrate their ignorance with each and every post.

To all the anti-gay activists: its best to keep quiet and be considered a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it.

To quote Rudyard Kipling...
People who tend to attack people IN the military, as opposed to what the military is being used for, are

"making mock of uniforms that guard them while they sleep."

Just consider that.

blah blah blah,,,
The Don't Ask Don't Tell policy was perfect to everybody. If no one knows you're gay, they won't get all antsy over your male/female bonding (Because women can serve too!) If you're not hounded out of the military simply because you are sexually attracted to another person, then you get to engage in the great privilege and honour that it is to serve your country and protect its people.

That's what it's at heart. I'm not gay. But I would never in my wildest dreams deny fellow citizens the right and honour to serve the nation in the armed forces, and anyone who feels like they can ought to really consider their priorities. What are you going to do next? Deny them the vote? It's a civic honour and duty to serve and anyone who wants to do so should!

Notice to Will
Quoting from Wikipedia is a farce. As a college professor, I absolutely forbid any student to use it as a source? Why? Because by definition a "wiki", like wikipedia, is an instrument that anyone can add to, delete, or alter. There are a lot of malicious people that purposefully put false information there, particularly in people's bios they don't approve of. Any questions? No? Then sit down.

Hogwash, Part III
I have observed up close and personal that men experience male bonding, but then, you can observe that in civilian life. But it is not as close as in military units where the guys train to believe that one life depends on all lives working together. Since women disturb this dynamic, won't open homosexuality disturb it? Yes. So, if you want an inefficient military, then by all means, let's keep on making the military an instrument of social change and experimentation, instead of the fighting machine it is meant to be. And, since a lot of soldiers are God-fearing Christians, it will not be easy to run an all-Volunteer force if they know going in they will be cohabiting with open homosexuals. To the poster above, I think it was Hal Donohooey, who asked "Can they fight? That's all that matters." WRONG. There is more to being a soldier than fighting. Unit cohesion is not just a catchword or excuse. It is real and it is potent when it works. And, Obama says that he will abolish the "don't ask, don't tell" policy when he is CINC. He has also said he will cancel SDI, cancel all future weapon systems development, reduce our nuclear inventory, and enter into a global compact to reduce nuclear material. What alternate reality does he live in? At any rate, while at the VA the other day, I picked up the Army Times and read the interview with Obama where he reassures the military about what he plans to do if elected. None of the above was included. Liar, liar....AGAIN. This man is a menace. And so are all of the homos on this site defending open homosexuality in the military with the same old tired arguments. If you haven't been there, you don't know what you are talking about, so STFU.



Hogwash, Part II
What did people think when a bunch of male soldiers had to risk their lives to rescue two female soldiers from that Iraqi hospital? Anyone remember the female helicopter pilot shot down in Iraq during the first Gulf War? She was raped and abused by her captors. She does not speak out about it and neither does the military because of shame on her part and propaganda on the military's part: the fact that women are different and don't belong in combat is not the current culture war party line.

What a bunch of hogwash
Someone posted this gem: In an all volunteer military, it's irresponsible to fire exemplary gay soldiers JUST for being gay, and anyone out there who DOESN'T want to serve with someone gay, doesn't HAVE TO JOIN.
Then we'll have the military we need and should have.

Yes, I bet a bunch of queens would be a very effective volunteer army. First mission: redesign the uniform. Decorate the barracks.

Before any of the homosexuals posting on this thread start calling me names, let me say this: I am a woman who was one of the first let into my particular careerfield (at the time it was Russian linguist). The women were not wanted and were not accepted. This caused a lot of tension for both sides. It is still the same. You see the slick ads on TV with the smiling men and women serving together, but that is all multicultural theater. One thing the military is very good at doing is forcing soldiers to toe a line, any line, particularly one that will affect the military budget. And, the presence of women makes every issue about sex (not gender, intercourse and the pursuit thereof). Women have not been good for the service. It is a social experiment that has failed. At least the percentage of women in the military is not high. But, hey, don't take it from me, take it from a modern female soldier, who BTW, is no longer in the Army. Read her book: Love my rifle more than you, by Kayla Williams. She was an Arabic linguist travelling with the combat troops in the zone.
Even though I learned a lot of things in the military that have been of value to ME, women have not been good for the MILITARY. Get it? The Marines grumble that only by lowering the standards do women make it through Marine boot camp. Don't take my word for it. Watch the Military Channel and watch the farce that is female Marine boot camp.

Just a thought
With all the wounded veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that need medical support, I guess we need to put a big sign up at Walter Reed Hospital and all other military hospitals that all gay nurses and doctors are not welcome. I am sure that our soldiers don't need to be bothered by psychiatrists or physicians who are either gay/lesbian and who are taught that homosexuality is a normal variation.

Sodom and Gomorrah
Another example of history. The bible says those two cities were destroyed because of their evilness. The descriptions of their sins are many, but one common thread is homosexuality.

People pooh-pooed the story as a biblical tale.

That is until the ruins were found. Where the bible said they would be.

The homosexual militants here would have everyone believe that does not matter. They may be right, but they may be equally wrong.

This is not a civil rights issue. Milleniums of human experience have shown the way forward, not backwards. The concept of homosexuality marriage is backwards.

Another famous homosexual or three
Jeffrey Dahmer. The cannibal

And might as well include Henry Lee Lucas and his homosexual lover implicated in the murder of Adam Walsh's son and 400 others.

How about the lesbian Eileen Wuernos? Executed by florida for killing a dozen men.

No matter who you are humans have always done evil to others. No matter. Play fair if you post about famous homosexuals, include the not so nice ones.

MellorSJ2, Higene and the queens
Notice how the queen herd can't answer the basic premise. No civilization that accepted homosexual marriage has survived. history proved homosexual marriage an utter and complete failure. This is a concept of militant anti Christian bigots pushed in the last two decades.

They attack, attack, and name call. Anyone who offends them by not agreeing with them is immediately attacked. Every one.

They never read history. As an example, just one, because they have posted about famous homosexuals, allow me to add another two examples.

Ernst Rohm. Brutal, sadistic, and without him Hitler would never have come to power. Both Rohm and Hitler were recorded saying that for posterity. Rohm was killed in 1935 on Hitlers orders. Al of Rohm's top command staff were also homosexuals, and they were also killed. Without the support of Rohm and his whole homosexual staff Hitler would never have come to power, ever! A bunch of homosexuals are responsble for enabling the rise to power by Hitler. Check it out yourselves. All of this was on the history channel within the last three weeks for a reference. And in books of WW2 everywhere

And add Adolf Hitler. Secret homosexual who had a woman by his side to stop rumors of his homosexuality. All the classic traits of a egomaniacal homosexual.

Why did you forget to add these two homosexuals to your list?


du - back again?
"But leave it to Star Parker to throw in her two cents. Considering her history, she's in no place to cast aspersions."

Ah, so you are pefect and never moralize on anything that you ever did wrong and repented of? A mother can't admonish her child not to do anything that she ever did wrong?

Let's consider YOUR history - care to come clean?

thevegasstyleguy
"And Miss Parker, on your way to be being born again did you miss the class where they said "judge not less ye be judged"? "

Did you miss the class where they explained what that means?

du - It's about rationality, not courage
--
Says du:

"If the majority here, especially those who have military experience are THIS queasy and insecure about serving with gay soldiers, then how could they be so brave in combat?"


To do the list thing in response, let's look at the criteria for an individual to respond to the issue of gays in the military without the idiocy displayed by "the majority here."'

One would need to be:

(a) personally familiar with the value of some several openly or closeted homosexuals (family members, colleages, or - in my case - patients);

(b) rational (which is to say driven primarily by reasoned thought rather than unthinking emotional, religious, or cultural "gut" responses to situations and circumstances);

(c) informed and/or willing to seek and examine objectively all available information about the issue of homosexuals as combatants, commanders, staff, and support personnel.


The majority of those who have commented on this thread have been of a conservative rather than a "Liberal" bent, and have been "social" pseudoconservatives rather than libertarians (who are overwhelmingly reason-driven rather than culturally, religiously, or emotionally fixated).

Though you would apparently like to condemn political conservatism on the basis of these jerkwads' obvious stupidities, this can and will lead you into the grave error of embracing "Liberal" political idiocies simply because "social" pseudoconservatives are bloody fools on this (among many other) issues.





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"I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce."

-- J. Edgar Hoover

con't
George Washington is dust. He was a slave owner, and I don't especially care what he would think now.

Parker's statements regarding family structure have more to do with economics than gays serving openly. Scapegoating gay people for just about every social ill or non issue is truly pathetic and way past old.

But leave it to Star Parker to throw in her two cents. Considering her history, she's in no place to cast aspersions. Especially to gay soldiers fighting to preserve her right to speak so badly of them.

Silly Anderson at it again
As I pointed out to to you on another thread. Whether or not same-sex marriage has been tried in the past says nothing about the circumstances today.

And, as I pointed out in the same post, there are many countries today in which same-sex marriage works just fine: UK, RSA, Netherlands etc etc etc. Plus two (so far) of our own states

There is no such thing as Proof by Repeated Assertion, and that applies to your slurs regarding posters here.

Moreover, adding exclamation points to your sentences does not make them more effective. They merely indicate you are incapable of expressing yourself.

what this thread reveals
1. If the majority here, especially those who have military experience are THIS queasy and insecure about serving with gay soldiers, then how could they be so brave in combat?

2. You insult the straight soldiers who DON'T object and ARE brave enough to serve alongside a gay soldier.

3. Having Muslim soldiers, fighting against fundamentalist Muslims doesn't seem to be a problem, even though an American Muslim soldier killed two of his fellows in a sneak attack with a grenade.

4. It is the HIGHEST of moral bravery and patriotism to serve a country and fellow citizens with whom you don't share full freedoms and rights, but bear all the responsibilities.

There is nothing moral about benefitting from a group of people, yet vilifying them at the same time.

5. I bet there would have been a lot less bui doi children around to shame heterosexuals in Vietnam.

In an all volunteer military, it's irresponsible to fire exemplary gay soldiers JUST for being gay, and anyone out there who DOESN'T want to serve with someone gay, doesn't HAVE TO JOIN.
Then we'll have the military we need and should have.









More militant queens again!
,Here they go ! All of them riled up again ! And firing off nasty posts. How lame. Notice how the losers always, always are the poor sports? When people challenge the homosexual posters here, it gets nasty because they have no case! They lost! And they keep digging holes for themselves! It is too funny!

Their backsides are puckered because they have no answers, just slick word games. If they can't make you feel for them by using outright lies, then they lie again, attack, label and demean. When that doesn't work they cry about it. Look at their recent posts from these same people on Dennis pragers last column on marriage.

Homosexual marriage has never been accepted, never will and homosexuality agendas by militant homosexuals like the ones here only serve to put everyone on notice,

They want you to submit to them. Is that your choice?

Reply to Higene
The passage you cite from 1 Corinthians ch. 6, includes a whole shopping list of other groupings of people who would not inherit the Kingdom of God, such as fornicators and adulterers (no discrimation there, Higene), thieves, drunkards, etc. The good news is found immediately afterwards, in verse 11: "And such WERE some of you; but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

All I can say, Higene, is that I personally fit the profile of at least five of the behavior patterns listed in this passage, but have since come into the redemption and peace and forgiveness of verse 11.

It is not my intention to antagonize you (I admit my comments in the air travel reply got a bit snarky). The best possible result of all this is that you might consider the claims of Christ and His redeeming love and surpassing ability to transform. I recommend it, and Him, highly.

Rolling my eyes
Looks like the psycho Wobbie is pretending that he was at the Naval Academy.

Wobbie, I am pretty sure that dating is allowed at USNA. Fraternization is not, but not being a real servicemember, it's all the same to you, isn't it? For crying out loud, what are you still doing on this web site? Don't you ever get tired of the abuse?

Higene
Jim, let