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Monday, February 11, 2008
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hillarycare Is Not the Answer
by Star Parker
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Suppose I tell you that the government will design a product and make you buy it. If you say no thanks, that's too bad. The government will decide what you need and what you will buy.

If you say you can't afford it, we'll send in government investigators to check, and if they conclude indeed you can't afford it, we'll tax your neighbors and make them subsidize you so you can pay for it.

We'll set up a government bureaucracy to monitor and make sure you're cooperating. If they discover you haven't made the purchase, they'll go to your employer and have your wages garnisheed.

Let's assume further that total spending for this government-designed and -mandated product accounts for about a fifth of the nation's total economy.

The former Soviet Union? Communist China?

No, this is the new Hillarycare. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., having once failed to explicitly nationalize the one-fifth of our economy going to health care, now wants to slip it past us by dressing it up in drag.

Her plan is to use a federal government mandate to force every American to buy health insurance. She claims it won't violate our freedom because if you already have a private plan that's OK. But a government alternative plan will be made available.

The government will regulate health care, define acceptable health insurance and force every American to buy a plan based on the government-established standard.

Her opponent for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, also wants vast government regulations and controls to define and price out health care. But Obama, who has the most liberal voting record in the U.S. Senate, grasps that, short of invoking a police state, it still must be up to consumers to decide to purchase health insurance.

This last point does not intimidate Clinton's Soviet-style affinities. When asked how purchase can be enforced, she told interviewer George Stephanopoulos, "We will have an enforcement mechanism. ... you know, going after people's wages."

Incredibly, Clinton calls her concept of government-mandated universal health coverage "a core Democratic value."

Indeed, we have a problem in the delivery of health care in our country. Costs are going up at twice the overall rate of inflation, with increasing burdens on working families.

Why have health-care costs gone out the roof when the prices of just about everything else have gone down? Because health care already has become a highly regulated, highly bureaucratized industry.

If we want cheaper and more creatively delivered health care, we need less, not more, government.

According to Dr. David Gratzer of the Manhattan Institute, in 1960 about half of health-care expenditures were directly controlled by consumers. Today, it is about 15 percent. Over the same period in which consumers have relinquished control, per-capita health-care spending has quintupled and costs have skyrocketed.

When someone else is paying, individuals behave differently. In a recent book by Shannon Brownlee of the New America Foundation, "Overtreated: Why Too Much Medicine is Making Us Sicker and Poorer," she argues that up to a third of our health-care expenditures are frivolous and ineffectual.

Beyond the pure economic calculus lies the moral question of individual responsibility and freedom.

Last year, the pharmaceutical firm Merck unleashed a state-by-state lobbying campaign to get state governments to mandate that teen-age girls receive an expensive vaccine they developed to combat the virus that causes cervical cancer.

Deemed irrelevant was the fact that this virus is transmitted overwhelmingly through promiscuous sexual behavior. Those most at risk are poor black girls, so the costs would flip over to government (taxpayers).

The core behavioral problem, immorality and promiscuity, driving the poverty and risk of the disease is not only ignored but effectively subsidized.

Our health-care ills are symptomatic of our social ills. And our social ills reflect a society where the link between personal responsibilities and costs and personal rights and benefits has been largely severed.

Soviet-style mandates like what Clinton wants will simply dig the hole into which we are sinking deeper. The approach is morally repugnant, the antithesis of everything that a free society is about, and, like the former Soviet Union, does not work.

More individual freedom, choice and responsibility in both the delivery and purchase of health care is our only hope.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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Clinton doesn't like individual freedom
and too many people are too quick to jump aboard her socialist bandwagon and cheer simply because she is a woman.

The government will pay for it
That is the mindset of millions of people in this country.
They cannot keep in their heads that taxpayers foot the bill.
Nor can they do simple math. It is disgusting.
We need words that tell people, "this is paid for by your neighbour", or words to the neighbour saying "you are paying for "this persons health care".
Lets get some words simple enough for these poor ignorant souls.

Not so obvious that Clinton is wrong
You are required to have insurance if you drive a car and you can be punished if you don't.

Everyone expects doctors and emergency rooms to take care of them if they have a medical problem. Very few people think hospitals should just let people die even though their illnesses are treatable when their money runs out. And even if you think they should just pull the plug on people who have no money, they won't do it because they would be sued.

So, why shouldn't people be required to have medical insurance, especially for their children? Its not right for people to go without insurance, but then expect the rest of us to pay their medical bills when they get cancer or a heart attack because they are too poor to pay for themselves.

I would disagree with Clinton if she wants to force me to buy the insurance from the government or a particular company. But competition among companies to provide insurance is good,

The requirement for people to have it will force people to choose whether they want to pay for expensive policies that cover everything they may possibly want or want less expensive polcies that may not cover the kind of procedures that Parker considers "frivolous".

Hillarycare
Hillary has been pushing this agenda since her husband Mr. Bill Lewinsky was president. Now that she's running, her plan, if you remember was rejected back in the day and she's been dying to implement said plan once elected.
It's since been overhauled and updated and you'll hear her supporters trumpeting the national health care cry, banging the drums slowly to the beat that we're the greatest country in the world and a vast majority of our citizens don't have health-care because they lack Insurance and a huge percentage are children. So enter "big gubment" if Hillary or Husseini gets elected to fix the so-called problem and guess who gets to foot the bill for this wild ride-we do, the taxpayers of Hillary and Husseini's America.

Stop the free loaders
Clinton is right. People should not be allowed to run around without insurance and then expect the rest of us to pick up the tab when they or their loved ones get sick.

Everyone should pick up their own tab.

If you already have insurance you have nothing to fear from Hillary's plan.

Government should not own your body
The reason we require car insurance is because we might harm somebody else when we are driving, and we need to have insurance to compensate them for the harm we cause. However, if we get sick and don't have health insurance, we only harm ourselves. In a free society, we should be allowed to take that risk. Otherwise, if government requires us to have health insurance and dictates the features that are required in that insurance, it essentially owns our bodies.

We need individual tax deductions and credits for health insurance, separating our health insurance from our employment, and freeing individuals to protect their own bodies and health. We do not need the government to control our bodies.

What "Mommy" Hillary
doesn't understand is that most Americans are quite capable of organizing their own lives, taking care of their families and their health and generally don't require (or want) "help" from the government. There is, unfortunately, a large segment of the population which has been "nannied" to death and which truly is in need of help (witness the NOL residents who were simply unable to fend for themselves or take any action on their own behalves - they just sat there waiting to be told what to do - by the government). Now, who is in control of these people's lives? Who makes their decisions for them, tells them where they can live and who they can live with? Where they can get medical care and how much and what type of food they can buy? So now the Socialist Mommy wants to stick her nose into the lives of the majority of the population that still hasn't been nannied to death. If you think it will stop with health care, you're very, very naive.

Clinton Camp Guilty Of “Bigoted” Lying?

NYT’s Rich: Clinton Camp Guilty Of “Bigoted” Lying?
WOW!!!!

…..The question now is how much more racial friction the Clinton campaign will gin up if its Hispanic support starts to erode in Texas, whose March 4 vote it sees as its latest firewall. Clearly it will stop at little. That’s why you now hear Clinton operatives talk ever more brazenly about trying to reverse party rulings so that they can hijack 366 ghost delegates from Florida and the other rogue primary, Michigan, where Mr. Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. So much for Mrs. Clinton’s assurance on New Hampshire Public Radio last fall that it didn’t matter if she alone kept her name on the Michigan ballot because the vote “is not going to count for anything.”……

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/nyts-rich-clinton- camp-guilty-of-bigoted-lying


health care shouldn't be free
I don't have a problem with folks having health insurance. It's the nature of that insurance that bothers me. What the government calls health insurance is actually fully subsidized health care.

If we ran car insurance the way we run health insurance, we'd expect the insurance company to pay for gas. But in order to do so, when we were running low we'd have to make an appointment with a qualified automobile generalist who would verify that we needed fuel, refer us to a fueling specialist who would order a dozen tests to make sure our guages were working correctly and that we did, indeed, need fuel, we would be given an appointment for the type and amount of fuel we needed, we would have to justify the miles we had driven and that we were driving in a manner to get the best fuel efficiency and we may be forced to make an appointment to have the fuel system checked out by yet another specialist with more tests. There would, of course, be whole bureacracies devoted to making sure our fueling records were secure and not available to public scrutiny. In the meantime, weeks after we had run out of fuel we would be given a prescription for fuel, with a limited number of refills. We would be told at which station we could refill (it would have to be in our plan), the type of fuel and the amount we could get at any one time. We wouldn't mind, however, because it would be free. While the true cost would be in the neighborhood of $20/gallon.

slacker
"You are required to have insurance if you drive a car and you can be punished if you don't."

That argument only holds if THAT is a good idea rather than another way to push up insurance costs, subsidize bad behavior and undermine the market's ability to deal with such issues.

"Everyone expects doctors and emergency rooms to take care of them if they have a medical problem."

Of course, the issue was NEVER "letting people die" because the bulk of "demanded" medical services are not so serious (hence the entirely accurate "frivolous" comment). In fact, prior to government mandate, medical problems were dealt with effectively by pro bono services offered to those truly in need. Now, that's actually illegal.

The problem with your thesis is the (completely wrong) assumption that it is up to everyone else to pay for these services - without consent - in the first place. It is this (wrong-headed) thinking that has created the disaster we have in the first place. The abandonment of private charitable solutions has vastly increased the costs, created unbelievable paperwork and has reduced the quality of care - as should have been expected as every other implementation of socialism has resulted in the same thing. [And there is effectively no difference between government provision and government mandate preserving the illusion that it is still offered by private companies.]

I'll give you one thing. At least you haven't repeated the factually wrong propoganda that health care in the US is inferior to that provided by countries with socialized medicine.

The only viable solution is to government OUT of health care entirely. It's better for everyone.

F1etch
You're right about getting the government out of health care. Have you ever wondered why someone with a relatively good job is willing to spend $100/week on green fees but is revolted at the idea of spending $100 on an office visit? What makes it acceptable to pay $200 for your kid's sneakers but unaccetable to pay $25 for a prescription? Health care should be the sole responsibility of the individual and insurance should only be for catastrophic.

Your point about charity is also well taken. The usurpation by the government of charity not only gives them the power to decide who is worthy of charity and not, it robs the middle class of the ability to be charitable by taxing them into poverty and by removing any incentive to charity - after all, the government has it handled.

Let's just steal the French system
They pay half of what we do, and have the best health care in the world. They live a year or so longer, on average. Ditto, Australia. I'm all for saving 10% of my income and letting the government run health care -- with one caveat: Don't let the Republicans run it (e.g., Katrina, Iraq).

Our system is what always happens when you create monopolies and leave them in the hands of private enterprise.

Might as well nut it up and admit that government can't do worse than what we have right now.

Liberty IS part of the economic calculus
As Thomas Sowell has pointed out, there are no economic values. Economics is about trade-offs. There is a trade-off between more government, i.e. less freedom, and the hoped for--but unlikely--reduction in monetary costs. A college freshman once answered "Duh! Take better care of ourselves" in response to the question "what can people do as the cost of health care increases? That so many Americans no longer consider this viable is a sad commentary on how far down the road to serfdom we've travelled. I'd write more but I have to get on my bike...

Beastie Boy
Natural disasters are always the perview of LOCAL GOVERNMENT - I know you've been told that approximately one million times. The local and state governments of NOL and LA were solidly in the hands of the democrat party machine. The Katrina mess wasn't FEMA's finest hour - but FEMA's performance was heroic compared to that of Nagin and what's-her-name. Who ignored the evacuation plan? Who delayed calling in the National Guard? Who told 1,000's of people to pack a lunch and a bottle of water and go to the Super Dome? Who let the buses sit and get flooded out? Who knew for a couple of days (at least) that NOL was in for a direct hit? Get a grip.

beastie boy
And the French economy is a joke compared to ours. You are correct, however, in the bit about granting monopolies. We should cut the insurance industry out of health care completely and we'd be much better off. That's where the monopoly lays.

Hillary real health plan
Hillary is already talking to the super delegates. Promising to give them the inside info on what drug and health companies will be getting the big government contracts for her health care plan that the tax payers will pay for is a great inside stock offer. Remember that she has the campaign funds from these two industries and they will expect a payback. The Clinton's and their pundits will again be the winners in this spin of this plan is in the best interest of our country fiasco.

Hillary real health plan
Hillary is already talking to the super delegates. Promising to give them the inside info on what drug and health companies will be getting the big government contracts for her health care plan that the tax payers will pay for is a great inside stock offer. Remember that she has the campaign funds from these two industries and they will expect a payback. The Clinton's and their pundits will again be the winners in this spin of this plan is in the best interest of our country fiasco.

Look for the hand
of government when a thing is dysfunctional. health care is no exception.
:
Can someone define "affordable health care"? Often cited by the Dims is the statistic that 47 million, or some such number, of citizens are uninsured as evidence that health care is not affordable. A study (M. Kate Bundorf, et al., "Is health insurance affordable for the uninsured?"Journal of Health Economics, 25 (2006) 650-673) finds that between 1/4 and 3/4 of the uninsured can afford health care but choose not to have it.
* How are we to solve a problem we can't define?
:
The current system is flawed in a couple of ways. Employees are provided tax breaks for providing employees health insurance; individuals buying their own insurance are not provided health insurance. States then mandate coverages for the health insurance, which creates a byzantine structure of regulation, rules and lack of consumer input. Lack of consumer input -- e.g. market forces -- drives up cost; business-purchases insurance policies eliminate portability. Many of the problems with the current health care -- let's say it properly, insurance coverage. Many of the problems with insurance coverage and cost can be fixed through tax policy and freedom. Let's start there and see what happens.

the hand (correction)
This "individuals buying their own insurance are not provided health insurance"
should say "individuals buying their own insurance are not provided tax breaks"

Sorry

You guys make Hillary's point for her
Fletch - and others -

There is no free ride - don't fool yourself that medical care for the illnesses that cause 80% of the costs (cancer, diabetes, aids, heart disease, etc) are cheap or can ever be covered "pro bono". These diseases will bankrupt you if you don't have insurance. And it is these and the miraculous but EXPENSIVE treatments science discovers as much as "frivolous" demands for unnecessary treatment that is driving medical costs up. And because we don't turn our back on people who have these diseases, they bankrupt you and me when people don't have insurance.

I am not against "charity". What I think charity can do best is help deliver preventive care which prevents or delays the onset of these diseases. But that works only people take advantage of it. And you know as well as I do charity is not going to solve the whole problem.

The best way to get people to be responsible for themselves and their children is to hit them in the pocket book if they don't.

Require them to have basic insurance. Let the insurance companies raise the cost of that insurance goes if they don't do preventive care. Then you and I don't get forced to pay all the costs of people who wait to see a doctor until its too late for any effective methods of prevention or cure in the early stages of the disease from working.

See economics WORKS!!!! Hillary is right!!!!! Have FAITH!!!!!


Liberals don't trust themselves enough
to believe that they will have the self control to save money for medical care. This is why they would rather have their government take away their money and "save" it for them.

Unfortunately for them, the government does not show signs that they save money any better than the average Joe.

In fact, when confronted with large sums of money available to them, members of congress show that the have a tendancy to spend conpulsively.

THIS IS THE BEAUTY OF HEALTH SAVINGS ACCOUNTS. Instead of sending your money into the neutron star of the welfare system, wouldn't it be better to have that same money go into an account that you can't touch except for paying medical bills?

Neo Cons know this
That is exactly thre reason Mitt had to drop out.


Beastie's delusions
The French system is NOT NOT NOT superior to ours. Their medical facilities are sooooo superior to ours that the bulk of those who died during the heat wave a couple of years back were already IN medical facilities. They pay less than we do but then we choose to spend more of our money on health care and the US figures are significantly inflated because they include expenditures for all those people from countries with socialized medicine who come here for treatment.

Life expectancy is useless for caomparson as it includes behavioral and genetic factors that skew the data. Those of similar ancestry live longer HERE.

Our system is what always happens when you create irresponsibly allow government to interve to CREATE monopolies (gov't is the biggest) and interfere with the market mechanism that can be handled so much more efficiently by private enterprise.

Might as well nut it up and admit that government is the PROBLEM in the first place and only those completely disconnected from reality don't think they can't make matters still worse.

Mitt Care, Hillary Care
One is good the other is bad?
One is the conservative hero, the other is the conservative zero?

Neo Cons might be the silliest people around. The are so easily motivated by fear and hate. If they would just elect some one who honored the Constitution this stuff would never be mentioned.

But they would not be able to fight wars against third world nations based on bad intel, that are no threat to us. Congress would have to over see the President (NeoCon King).

You whakky liberal Neo Cons can not have it both ways.

Mr. Right's Wrong Analogy
Mr. Right, that's a very poor analogy.

It is perfectly acceptable to me for example for insurance companies to require you to see a primary care doctor before you go running off to expensive specialists. It is also OK for them to require you to go to a specialist for certain types of treatment that can only be delivered by a specialist. If you don't like that then find another insurance company. And if you can't find one then post a reasonable bond ($1,000,000 would be reasonable at today's costs and its fine with me if you earn interest tax free while its posted) to show you are both self insured and responsible for paying all your own medical costs.

But for those who can't post $1,000,000 to self insure themselves and their families I agree with Clinton. And incidently the Massachussetts plan that Romney helped put in place... Everyone must have health insurance, particularly children and the elderly.

I also do not agree with a "single payer" system like Hillary tried when she was first lady. But there is no chance Hillary will get such a system passed this time either. Requiring private insurance and subsidizing those who truly can't pay for it is a proper compromise.

Multiple insurance companies competing for our business and offering a variety of plans that we are required to choose from will avoid the foolishness you dream up.

Mountain Rose -
Yep, Health Care Savings accounts are a great form of insurance and catching on. My company offers one and it is very attractive, especially to the young and healthy. You should be allowed to earn interest on your account tax free when you don't use the money. When it gets to a suitable balance to cover the current costs of even catastrophic illnesses like cancer, diabetes, chronic heart disease etc. you should be allowed to declare yourself "self insured" and no longer required to pay into it.

As I say, they are a great idea and already in play. They will be one form of insurance that meets the requirement when everyone is required to have insurance under "hillary-care". If she doesn't accept this, I promise not to vote for her.


Very poor article
and I don't have time now to go into all its defects.

But Parker starts off by mis-identifying the "product." The product she should be talking about is "values" and specifically the values of equality and fairness in a wealthy, post-industrial country.

We have the resources to insure that the people who need medical care the most can get that care. The thing which stands in the way of achieving that, the foremost goal of health care, is the market economy, which replaces the need for care with the ability to pay.

It's a value thing.

liberals
How much more would you like to pay in to the government??
Lets say you are in the middle class and paying insurance costs for your family.
Now,look at you paycheck(net pay), & subtract 10 or 15% from that. You are now down to the poor class and need help from your neighbour who is also(paying)= it has a domino effect.
You CANNOT raise taxes on ANY segment of society without hurting the poor.
That is as simple as it can be put.

Proud Lib
Values sounds good; post-industrial country sounds good. But the facts are that it is blather. GAO is saying loud and clear that Medicare and Medicaid are not affordable. Entitlement spending is on a path to consume 40%, ore more, of the country's wealth, and to that the Federal Government should add more structural obligation. That doesn't make sense.
Government is a quite inefficient delivery mechanism and ultimately drives up cost, while reducing quality. The best thing for government to do is to remove its restrictions, create transparency, reduce taxes, and allow the free market to solve the problems.
:
The existing high tax rates are stealing from our children as surely as the debt we are leaving. Taxing the economy removes capital that can be used to grow business. Studies of the Armey Curve indicate we could have around 6% growth with no inflation if taxes were lowered to optimal levels. This means there could be 50% more wealth in this country in just one generation if government got out of things with which it shouldn't be involved. With more money in their pockets consumers could more easily afford health insurance.
:
More freedom, not less, is the right answer.



hillarys health care
same as romneys, its ok when proposed by a "so-called" conservative but an abomination when proposed by a liberal.

that is why conservativism is in ill repute right now.

there is no logic to some of the positions being take just the FEELING that it goes against conservative dogma.

Proud Liberal writes:
Very poor article
and I don't have time now to go into all its defects.

But Parker starts off by mis-identifying the "product." The product she should be talking about is "values" and specifically the values of equality and fairness in a wealthy, post-industrial country.

We have the resources to insure that the people who need medical care the most can get that care. The thing which stands in the way of achieving that, the foremost goal of health care, is the market economy, which replaces the need for care with the ability to pay.

It's a value thing.

You want to see government health care, P_L, just go to your nearest VA Hospital, and you will see just how well the government can run a healthcare system.

Important to note
"Incredibly, Clinton calls her concept of government-mandated universal health coverage "a core Democratic value." "

Note that Clinton calls it a Democratic value rather than a democratic value.

Clearly the Democratic party should in no way be confused with democracy.


anyone who wants more Government
is a brainwashed slave. No matter how it is packaged, government healthcare is socialism. I f that's what you want, then move to Canada, Cuba, France or any of the "Progressive" countries that will decide your healthcare and more. Go find the most affordable health insurance you can find, before you are forced to buy it from Hillary the Socialist.

TO Religious Lib
It has nothing to do with the two party system, it has to do with the Constitution, show me where it states in that document that the Government is responsible for healthcare or any other socialist scheme that most people are too ignorant to see what's been done to us by our Representatives. Who's the master and who's the slave?

Mandates don't work
Even though every state mandates auto insurance, we still have to buy uninsured motorists. Apparently, many pay for one month to renew their registration and then drop it.
Humana is now advertising individual policies for $60/mo in FL. When it costs about what cable costs, how is that a national issue?

Equality and fairness=Socialism
All men are created Equal, end of story. Fairness is just another name for Socialism, your birthright is being stolen right from under your nose. We own the Government, the Government does NOT own us. Don't buy into the hype that Hillary and the Socialists are selling, it's wrong, it's anti-American. Read the Constitution!

LJ7392-Elko
How much control of our lives does Shrillary want? She seems to think that since she can’t control Billary, she WILL control everyone else?

One of the last major health programs,..
...promoted by a well-meaning Democrat can be read at the UC Santa Barbara collection of presidential documents. To wit: President Kennedy's "cure" for the poor quality of mental health care in the USA and his proposed remedies are documented in a letter to Congress on the 5th. of February, 1963.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=9546

Read it if you dare. It is a chilling prescription for all the chaos of the 60's, 70's up to today and the latest news of a mentally ill person involved in a mass shooting instead of being hospitalized. If you've ever wondered what went wrong with our country, you can read the blueprint right there.

Will "Hillary Care" be any less of a national tragedy? Will the Kennedy's help write the law? For the sake of our society, I hope not!

jimmyjames
your nickname was the name of a character in a great comedy sitcom called newsradio.

what some conservatives don't seem to understand is that the idea that you can simply use which parts of the government you want i.e. roads, fire fighters, police, and military but reject all others is selfish an un-american.

A reminder
slacker writes:
Everyone should pick up their own tab.

If you already have insurance you have nothing to fear from Hillary's plan.

=================================================

The taxpayer will be footing the bill for the program.

Don't pretend econ is on Hillary's side
"There is no free ride."

That much is true, but the things that are driving up medical costs are NOT things like diabetes, heart disease, etc. but rather the intereference in the market mechanism of government. The paperwork; the price manipulations; the pseudo-monopoly granted to the AMA. I am not suggesting that pro bono work could address The serious illnesses mentioned in a vacuum; I'm suggesting that, before an interventionist environment that made such costs so out of reach existed, the pro bono system WORKED and there is no reason to believe that eliminating the intervention causing the problem would not yield similar results.

Prvate charity has been demonstrably more effective than public charity (by several orders of magnitude) so I DO NOT "know" that private charity cannot solve the problem. In fact, the evidence indicates that private charity cannot do worse than state involvement has.

Attempting to force people to obtain something by government fiat is NOT a reliance upon market principles and market incentives. In fact, it is a violation of them and a chief reason why it cannot work as advertised (as has been the case with PC insurance). Economics DOES work. Hillarycare does not.

Moderate?
ModMark writes: Ok jimmy, then what do you do when a 5 year old kids walks into a ER room and her parents can't pay? Is the consevative solution just put a bullet in her head and be done with it? What is your solution?

=================================================

The democrat solution was to give the mother a government funded abortion 5 years and a week earlier.


It's a values thing?!?!
No. The product is absolutely NOT about "values". It's about practicality: How do we ensure that the greatest number of people get the greatest benefit.

It has nothing to do with your desire to impose your own concept of "fairness" upon everyone else. There is no basis for the assertion that we have the resources to insure everyone. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Like every other country on the planet, we must face the reality that there is a finite amount of medical resources to be distributed. In countries with socialized medicine, this is dealt with via rationing which is AT LEAST as lethal as the system we have in place in the US.

The most efficient means of providing the most health care to the greatest number of people IS the market economy, which - when not grossly interfered with by government (as in the uS now) greatly REDUCES the costs to the consumer.

The advocacy of socialized medicine fails on BOTH utilitarian and moral grounds.

religiouslib
You didn't find too many conservatives backing Romneycare either, so the charge of hypocrisy simply doesn't hold up.

I am not arguing that it is "free"
Nevertheless, the pro bono system is but one of a number of market based solutions that are (and have proven to be in the past) effective at dealing with the issue of those who need care. Because it is voluntary and not regarded as an entitlement it is largely sef regulating and geared more toward addressing real need.

As an Australian
living in the US, I would NOT trade the Australian system for the US system.

Australia historically had socialized medicine. To be frank, it sucked. Terribly long waiting lines for just about everything. That is unless you carried private insurance. (We never could afford it while I was growing up).

Today in Auustralia, things are quite different. The historical provider, Medicare Australia, was so bad that it became MANDATED to carry private insurance. And who would have guessed that since private insurace started paying the bills, everyone is happier. Almost. Everyone STILL pay the FULL amount of the explicit medicare tax of 1.5% and the additional 6.5% out of general taxes to support Medicare Australia.

Medical free enterprise
"For most of us, we have a free market system and the cost have skyrocketed during the past 20 years. Everyear health insurance has been going up 5-15% in my market, far above normal inflation.

The issue here for a free market system to work, consumers need to control the demand for medical care which in reality they do not. Medical care is not optional for the majority of cases. When my son suffer a concussion, we went to the ER regardless of the cost. I am not going to let him possible die because it cost too much. That visit was $2800 for 2 hours in the ER."

What we currently have is NOT a free market system.

- When freedom exists, regulatory costs don't shut down small businesses.

- When freedom exists there are no government programs or protections (HMOs) to certain favored companies.

- In a free market, which, in the medical industry, was closer to existing prior to the great society programs, the neighborhood doctor would make house calls in the middle of snowstorms and charge the cost of gas. The neighborhood doctor would charge $5 for a checkup for 3 kids (adjusted for inflation, @ $25-$50 now)

The nightmare you discuss of a $2800 hospital visit for 2 hours is the result of government regulatory costs (direct and indirect) being passed on to the consumer so that the hospital can stay in business.

Further...
The ntion that most of us have free market insurance is factually inaccurate. The heavy involvement of the state in the process is the chief driver of the rise in medical costs which underlie the rise in the price of insurance. Even if that were not the case, the heavy regulatory burden placed upon insurers - mandated coverages, minimum offerings, tort impacts - all further serve to drive prices well above free market levels.

moderate mark
i must commend you on your civility and clear headedness.

yes our healthcare system is a mess, and the biggest problem is the private insurance carriers who are more intersted in the bottom line than in health care.


Uh, no...
"So how is the free market system going to cover the $300+ billion cost of Medicaid?"

You must research the basic economic concept of substitution. The misconception is that private charity cannot handle such huge amounts because private charity does not exist currently at that level, but the reasoning is fallacious. Governmental investment drives out private investment regardless of whether the issue is roads or products or charitable services. There is a lower amount of private charitable dollars available expressly BECAUSE the government has taken this function upon itself.

In the absence of such governmental involvement, not only would considerably greater private funds be available, but since governmental inefficiency is so rampant, it is likely that some two-thirds of that expenditure is wasted anyway. The insistence that private charity cannot meet this need is a fndamental economic fallacy based on the assumption that existing conditions must continue for no reason other than that it is waht currently exists.

As it happens, it is the socialization of medicine (such as Medicare - and to an even greater extent in countries with so called "universal" systems) that leads to rampant rationing of care - NOT the free market solutions.

Further, I am not arguing that any particular private sector enterprise is a "model of efficiency" - particularly in an industry so heavily interefered with by government in the first place, but, by definition, government is a model of INEFFICIENCY incapable of even approaching the efficiency levels of even the most poorly run private company.

We have the best healthcare
"yes our healthcare system is a mess, and the biggest problem is the private insurance carriers who are more intersted in the bottom line than in health care."

In some alterante reality maybe. In THIS one, however, the US health care system, despite all its faults, is the finest in the world. Health care services are at least as readily available here as in countries with socialized medicine (whose care rationing results in at least as many deaths as die in the US from delay receiving care). Studies indicate that people in the US have more access to treatment, more access to diagniostic equipment, spend more time with their priomary care physicians and, if they get diagnosed with a major illness, are FAR more likely to survive in the US than anywhere else.

The bogus WHO study that ranked the US 37th did so because it rated "universal (sic) healthcare" as a de facto measure of quality at the outset. It never actually assessed real care quality.

Part of your misunderstanding...
"The free market system eliminated the house calls, it is just too costly for the doctors. Making $50/visit might have worked in the old days but not now..."

The skyrocketomng cost of medical education is a direct result of the GOVERNMENT granting pseudo-monopoly status to the AMA which drastically restricts the supply of doctors by drastically restricting the access to medical education. Medical school opennings have not grown at anywhere NEAR the increase in the size of the population, driving up the cost of medical school and driving down the number of doctors which ultiamtely results in that high cost of care. The private sector doesn't have a thing to do with it.

ModMark: You didn't read
what I said. When government provides tax breaks for businesses that provide health insurance and not for individuals that buy it, then there is no free market. Tax policy has interfered with the free market.

The other point is that excessive taxes today eliminates wealth in the future. Had, as an example, government's at all levels been clamped at their 1950s levels there would be twice as much wealth in the country today. With that wealth more people could afford health care -- as long as the tax policies didn't interfere -- and there would be more money for charity to help the few unfortunate people who truly can't afford the coverage.

There is, believe it or not, a sensible alternative to a government takeover of health care. Even better is that this would improve everyone's life. The problems with soaring costs, with "affordability", and with lack of portability all have the fingerprints of government all over them.

The solution will be found in more, not less, liberty.

:

ModMark writes:
Monday, February, 11, 2008 11:54 AM
Free Market Health Care
elko.mike "The best thing for government to do is to remove its restrictions, create transparency, reduce taxes, and allow the free market to solve the problems."

For most of us, we have a free market system and the cost have skyrocketed during the past 20 years. Everyear health insurance has been going up 5-15% in my market, far above normal inflation

Modmark
You make a good point. Government has its limits as to what it can and can't do, according to the Constitution. Efficiency is not one of Governments strong points. Market-based industries are efficient, compassion is not one it's strong points. If you want the best healthcare, you come to America. Why healthcare is so expensive is debatable. A possible solution is catastrophic health insurance, for serious and life-threatening illnesses and injuries only. Everything else would come out-of-pocket or on payment plans. Preventative care is a personal responsibility which could be used to recieve discounts to your premiums. I don't believe there is a "perfect" solution, running it through the Government would be a mistake, for sure.

ModMark: Asserting Health Care
delivery is a free market system doesn't make it so. The facts are that the current health care delivery system is NOT a free market system due to government interference.

Please see
skiddles writes:
Monday, February, 11, 2008 1:06 PM
As an Australian living in the US, I would NOT trade the Australian system for the US system.

:
ModMark writes:
Monday, February, 11, 2008 12:35 PM
...
They fail to understand, the free market system of health care just isn't working these days.

Responsibilty=authority
In general, when an entity is given responsibility for something, they also must be given authority commensurate with that responsibility. A teacher, for example, is responsible for the safety of his students, and as such has the power of being "in loco parentis" and can enforce such rules as are necessary to ensure their safety.

So, if the government has the responsibility to look after our health-care, they will need the authority to do the job.

In nations with socialized medicine, such as Great Britain or Canada, they use public funding for health-care to justify all sorts of laws restricting smoking and the like. There was a case in England of a man denied life-saving surgery because he was a smoker. The fat police are already chomping at the bit. Maybe some forced exercise? Probably not, but it could be justified using the "it takes a village" reasoning.

Finally, Canada relies on the US to handle the patients that would DIE under their heath-care system. Every year, thousands of patients are either sent to the US by their governments, or elect to go themselves on their own dime, because the wait times are so long that they would not survive long enough to get treatment.

So please, for the sake of those nice, polite Canadians, say no to Hillarycare.

fletch
have you had any encounters with hmo's

a waiting list for my wife to get a pap smear is 6-9 months.

to get a refferral to a specialist takes an act of congress.

a box of klenex costs 50 dollars in the hospital.

i could go on and on.

when you have accountants making decisions on healthcare you are deep trouble.

i would agree that we have one of the best health care systems in the world but it is becoming less so every day because of profit oriented decision making.

Not at all
"We both agree there as massive inefficiency with both gov't and private medical industry."

No, no. You misunderstand. I do NOT agree that there is "massive' inefficiency in the private medical industry. To the contrary, I would argue that the private sector is amazingly efficient given the government-mandated situation the industry finds itself in. This does not mean that the private sector is "perfect", but it is several orders of magnitude more efficient than government and would be even more so if it weren't for the constraints placed upon it by government.

"As an ambulance driver, why would I even take someone to the hospital without prior knowledge of getting paid?"

There are any number of private sector solutions to this problem many, if not all, of which are in palce in various locales - pre-payment, charitable services, insurance verification, etc. Emergency service provision BEGAN as a private sector function (fire and ambulatory services) and have functioned quite well even to the present time.

The Canadian "solution" kills. Sure, it's less expensive if all we're talking about is money. Bt are we?

As an Australian Part II
Lets just highlight another difference between Australia and the US, Life Expectancy.

Just about every factor that you can name that impacts life expectancy other than healthcare falls down in favour of Australia.

Guns .. Historically low ownership. Now outlawed.
Weather ..Only small percentage of population live in areas where snow and ice are a factor. While Australia does not have the lows of the US, the temperature highs are easier to deal with.
Cars... Fewer cars on the road per capita and on average a lower engine displacement.
Lifestyle... Becuase of the weather, people engage in healthier, outdoor lifestyles.
Food... Food is fresher in Australia.
Geophysical/ Extreme Weather.... Generally, no earthquakes, no tornadoes, hurricanes only impact less densely populated areas.

I hope this helps.

Responsibility
All have talked about everything but the consumer.
Cat scan & pap smears & other crap are given us because we aren't smart enough to know we do not need it.
It gripes me to hear some old fuddy duddy bragging about "why, i take 14 perscriptions a day".
Doctors have already stated, before congress, that as many as 3 out of 5 perscriptions are not needed but are afraid they might be sued if they are not given.
The same thing goes for the tests mentioned above.

ModMark
writes, "I do believe their favorite word is Socialist! They fail to understand, the free market system of health care just isn't working these days."

What free market system would that be? The government is what created this mess but, I know that would seriously impede the stampede to have the government fix the problem it created.

"The voter are demanding a change, the conservatives did little so now lets give the democrats a chance. Do something, I hear too many horror stories to believe we have a well run system."

I have heard stories also. Let's have the feds create policy on them instead of empirical evidence. Great idea

"During one major downsizing during my career, the biggest fear from those who lost their jobs was health care. i want solutions and could care less about political slogans.."

I suggest you write a letter to your congressmen and submit your list of presents that you want this year and be really really good.

religiouslib
writes, "i would agree that we have one of the best health care systems in the world but it is becoming less so every day because of profit oriented decision making."

The same old tired fallacy trotted out by Mark. Why can you not see that it is not the profit motive that is causing all the perceived problems? What makes profit such an evil word? Is it because in an extremely simplistic situation like buying a car, you think you could pay less if the dealer made no profit? Life is not zero sum. You economic illiterates blame the moon for government created problems and then want government to fix it. IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

When you work for no pay, come back and tell me how ugly profit is. I cannot stomach libs profiting off of me everyday and decrying the profit motive.

ModMark: We are almost there
Today employers buy insurance for employees because of the tax break. In essence it is a discounted salary. Remove the tax break (or leave it) and provide the consumer with the tax incentive to have insurance. Then put the consumer in charge of their own insurance, and also interestingly solves the portability problem.

In the earlier post I mentioned that states levy demands on business for what benefits they must provide. As an example, my insurance covers fertility services. Well at 61 I don't feel the need for them. But, my employer is forced to pay for that coverage -- and many others that I don't want or need -- because of state mandates. It drives up the cost for the insurance, but it doesn't matter to me as the employer is footing the bill. That's why I keep saying the market isn't free.

So let the consumer shop for the services they want and let choice and consumer decisions adjust the market offerings according to that demand. I can after all buy a small car, a big car, a green car, a red car, a plain car, or a luxury car. Markets are about choice. With tax-subsided employer-provided health insurance I as a consumer don't have choices. With government takeover it will be even worse. If I'm in charge of my health insurance, I can buy a plan that suits my needs; for example I don't have to pay for fertility services or abortion services or ...

Liberty is the answer

:

ModMark writes:
Monday, February, 11, 2008 2:00 PM
....
Ok, my employer now pays $5K toward my insurance. Remove the tax break, he now pays only $4k toward my insurance and i still have limited choices.

G'day skiddles
You write: "Guns .. Historically low ownership. Now outlawed.
Weather ..Only small percentage of population live in areas where snow and ice are a factor. While Australia does not have the lows of the US, the temperature highs are easier to deal with.
Cars... Fewer cars on the road per capita and on average a lower engine displacement.
Lifestyle... Becuase of the weather, people engage in healthier, outdoor lifestyles.
Food... Food is fresher in Australia.
Geophysical/ Extreme Weather.... Generally, no earthquakes, no tornadoes, hurricanes only impact less densely populated areas."

All true. But you forget:

Great sense of humor, and not quick to take offense

Straight talking and direct. Morning TV: "With respect Minister, that's bull, isn't it?" ROTFL

Sane measures, the 12hr clock being the main exception

International outlook: Compare the daily display of the several major currencies (and stock markets) with CNN's characterization of anyone who knows there are currencies other than the USD as a 'nut'

Intelligent comment: I'll take SBS over any TV channel on the planet

Great attitude to work: Do it! And then get to the beach. No time serving.

Food: Best restaurant on the planet (Tetsuya's) is in Sydney. (And I have done extensive research!)

Public transport: Despite a lot of whining in the newspapers, I'd take Sydney's public transport system over any on the planet (with the exception of Tokyo). And who can complain about taking a ferry to work, even if they are sometimes late?

The only trouble is the currency. From a low of $0.48 in 2002, it now costs US$0.91 to buy AU$1. But that's in large measure due to Americans who don't save




ModMark: We don't just turn
away anyone who needs health care. If they present themselves to an emergency room they are treated.
:
One argument for universal health care is that this approach to health care delivery drives up the cost for everyone. Assuming that universal health care is the answer and will lower cost, can I expect a rebate check for the taxes saved? I think not. So I'm very skeptical about the claim that this will save money. If there is one thing government is not, it is efficient. Driving cost from a system requires efficiency and government is the wrong agent for that. Profit is the price to be paid for efficiency and if we are serious about removing cost we most do it with the free market.

The debate is confused on the matters of health care, health insurance, and preventative care.
There are issues with each of these. To properly solve these issues they should be clearly defined first, which I argue hasn't happened yet.

What, for example, is a good definition of "affordable health care"? Many of the uninsured -- these people do have access to health care by the way -- are uninsured by choice. They can pay for it but choose to spend their money in other ways. What should society do about that? Hillary proposes to attach their wages. That's freedom for you.

Part of freedom is that one's actions have consequences. Let's accept this and move on. After all, because some are irresponsible why should that mean that responsible people must participate in a government run health care system? I haven't seen an answer to that either.


:
ModMark writes:
Monday, February, 11, 2008 3:14 PM

No need, we just vote. I still would love to hear a conservative plan that is based on the reality, you can't just turn away someone who desperately needs health care.

to MellorSJ2
'The only trouble is the currency. From a low of $0.48 in 2002, it now costs US$0.91 to buy AU$1. But that's in large measure due to Americans who don't save'

I don't agree, it's actually due to "fractional reserve banking practices" initiated by the Federal Reserve Corp. aided and abetted by our Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government that have usurped the Constitution. We have only had ONE balanced budget since the Federal Reserve Corp, was established in 1913. FDR sold us down the river to help his International Banker co-conspiritors.

the problem with insurance
government has created this mess by creating incentives for employers and employees to turn health care finance, and therefore decisions, to third-party payors...

the most efficient health care transactions are those with payment from consumers directly to providers... no insurance claims, no payment delays, no denials of service,

the problem is that third party payors have distorted market pricing so dramatically that providers shift costs to the cash paying consumer and charge dramatically higher rates for uninsured services... this makes the "crisis" of the uninsured appear much more dire than it is...

the first step is to remove tax incentives for both employers and employees to shift financing and decision-making to insurers... placing those dollars spent on insurance directly in the hands of consumers who will go out and choose providers based on price and quality competition...

then perhaps a realistic market for catastrophic health care insurance will arise, but as the system now stands third party payors want control of all health care dollars so they can ration care at all levels...

hillarycare will make this system worse, not better

Modmark
"you can't just turn away someone who desperately needs health care. "

or food, or clothing, or a home, or fill in the blank. Where do we draw the line? Why is it noble to vote to confiscate other people's money to pay for things you want? Charity is noble. Forced charity is theft. You feel good voting to steal the fruit of others' labor when you should be ashamed.

I know you would take care of every single person in the world out of your own pocket if you could. You cannot so therefore you rationalize taking others money since they are just too greedy or uncaring. The end justifies the means. Keep trying to legislate those feelings thinking you can solve all the world's poverty when doing so will ensure we all join them.

Let's be real
The US system is NOT perfect, but there is just to much blame to go around. Just about every aspect of our system needs reform.

>Doctors, AMA, hospitals.

>Insurance Costs both Healthcare and Medical Malpractice need to be reformed.

>Trial Lawyers and tort reform.

>Medicare/Medicaid short changing doctors and providers.

>Inordinately long/expensive drug/treatment approval process

>Free treatment for the uninsured

This is why people complain about the healthcare industry not being a "free market."

Unfortunately Hillarycare will not "fix" anything because it does not address all of these issues. Heck it only maybe adresses one.


ModMark
writes, "I been attacking Gunny on his socialized for life health care (ie: retired military). He has a government policy, supplemental policy from his current employer and not sure about his spouse"

It is fair to call it socialized, however, it is also the one socialized benefit authorized specifically in our constitution.

I will gladly contribute to Gunny's health care and anyone else who fights for this country. I do not want to pay for yours, however.

Lower heath care costs?
Best way to lower health care costs?
1.) Take away frivilous law-suits. OB/GYNS are being driven out of buisness because of the high cost of malpractice premiums. Paying 200-300 thousand PER YEAR makes it tough to make any sort of profit.
Hence a womans cost for getting yearly check-ups and prenatal care goes up.
2.) Do as that "kooky" Ron Paul wants to do. All folks currently on or just about to be on, Social Security will get their obligation fulfilled.
Young folks can take the money that SS would normally take out, and invest it themselves. Personal reponsibility.
Just doing those 2 things alone would decrease the amount of healthcare, and lessen "entitlements" on the Federal Govt.
Think about this for a second: The Fed Gov has spent the money they promised to save for our retirement, and have spent it on other things. It's broke. Do you really think the Fed Gov will NOT mess up socialized healthcare?
Right now, the US has the best medical care in the world. Innovation, research into drugs and stem cell research (adult stem cells)...the free market drives that research. If Hillary wants to "cap" what we "pay" for insurance...where does the drive to make things better come from? If the govt wont pay for a stem cell "transplant" that could save your life...why make it?

ModMark
"Health Care. I do not believe in a country which will tell someone who is poor, just go away and die. Yes, we need to find a way to provide basic health care to all. It is fun to take a "extreme position" but the reality is very nasty and is against my atheist morals."


I was going to use the line from a Monty Python movie, 'bring out yer dead' but, your thoughtful response deserves a thoughtful reply. Where do we draw the line? Not so long ago the average mortality age was much much lower. The scientific advances in medicine mean that, instead of people dying from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc we can now treat them and prolong their lives for ???. The question I have is, at what cost?

The current system increasingly taxes the workers to provide this new and improved level of care to people who paid much less when they were younger. We are transferring the cost from the receivers of care to the healthy through insurance companies and government. A ponzi scheme exactly like Social Security. However, the results of Medicare, Medicaid, etc will dwarf the soc sec problem. Why? Because medicine is going to keep advancing far beyond our ability to pay for it.

The more health care is regulated by the government the less efficient and effective it will be, and the sooner we will reach that point where we have to decide, how much is too much? We cannot live forever. Have you ever heard the term marginal cost?

ModMark: Why would they kick you out?
"Australia is #1 on my places to move if they kick me out of the US."

Now why would they kick you out of the US, ModMark? :)

"Can I ask, what is your status ie: American living in Australia ?"

In terms of citizenship, I was born British and I am naturalized American.

I reside in the UK because my parents need my support. (And yes, I am happy with the National Health Service both for me and my parents.) I work all over the world.

I pay US taxes because I'm a citizen, but I can exclude income earned outside the US. I am a "non-domiciled" resident of the UK, which allows me to pay taxes only on UK income. (At least for now. They propose a charge of GBP30,000 yr to maintain this status. Bastards.)

I stay in Australia in the summer for the reasons I outlined above. I'd like to live there, but I am at once too old and too young to get a residence visa. (And anyway, right now I need to support my parents.)

The Auto Insurance Model
If I want to drive a car, I am required to have insurance. Why does everyone get hot under the collar about being required to have health insurance, but are sanguine about auto insurance? Because it's a reasonable requirement, that's why. But with health insurance, somehow, reason goes out of the window.

There are some drivers that are bad risks. Yet driving in a necessity in the US, and you can't drive w/o insurance. What to do? Require the auto insurance companies to create a "bad risk" pool, and share the risk across the companies.

Uncouple insurance from employment so that it becomes portable, and we're a long way towards solving the problem.

how typical
This column is typical of the brainless garbage spewed out by conservatives. Pretty much everything is wrong. #1, like global warming, it personifies the issue with someone hated by conservatives.

Star, if you're really interested in health care, why don't you thoroughly research it like Michael Moore with Sicko. Visit US and foreign hospitals. Show us documents and video to prove your point - none of this shoot-from-the-hip garbage. If you don't like Moore-like conclusions, you could create a perfect rebuttal to his conclusions. Neither you nor anyone else on the right has dared to do so.

Cam writes:
"why don't you thoroughly research it like Michael Moore with Sicko"

Thats a good one. LOL.

Because MM is non partisan right? He's an academic right? You don't know that Star hasn't done research. You just don't like her suggestions/outlook.

religiouslib
"have you had any encounters with hmo's?"

For several years.

"a waiting list for my wife to get a pap smear is 6-9 months."

That's odd. The HMO scheduled one for my wife within a couple of weeks.

"to get a refferral to a specialist takes an act of congress."

I've gotten referrals to blood pressure specialists, diet clinicians, blood sugar specialists, clinical neurologists (just call me "Body By Rent-A-Wreck) all within a very short time frame and with little hassle.

"a box of klenex costs 50 dollars in the hospital."

...yet another gift to you from our government controlled healtrh system.

"i could go on and on."

Anecdotal evidence is no substitute fro aggregated data or economic analysis.

"when you have accountants making decisions on healthcare you are deep trouble."

That's a great little bit of rhetoric - it has no basis in reality, though, nor does the statement that our health CARE is deteriorating (exactly the opposite is true) in large part because of the demands of the marketplace.

skiddles
Have you even seen Sicko? It is not fully kind to Hillary Clinton.

In just one example, Star hasn't substantiated any on her claims that a government run system would cost more.

MellorSJ2 writes:
"Uncouple insurance from employment so that it becomes portable, and we're a long way towards solving the problem."

Agreed, but I disagree that health insurance is like auto insurance. Medical Malpractice insurance is like auto insurance.

Medical Insurance should be more like Term Life insurance.

Fixed term.
Its cheaper the earlier you buy it.
Its not employer subsidised.
Its pretty much a commodity so you can shop around and get a policy that is right for you.

Now I do favor the Gov't as an insurer of last resort for SOME cases, say a profoundly disabled person. I don't even mind if my taxes go towards this type of person.

skiddles
Have you even seen Sicko? It is not fully kind to Hillary Clinton.

In just one example, Star hasn't substantiated any on her claims that a government run system would cost more. All evidence (e.g., the WHO) is to the contrary.

Mod Mark
Again, it is inherently dishonest to pose the alternatives as either socialized medicine or "tell[ing] someone who is poor, just go away and die."

The choice is between governmental solutions and private sector solutions (which in no way, shape or form, includes the latter condition even if ALL such cases are handled by private charity. There simply is no basis for the bald assertion (or belief) that private charity cannot address this issue.

Cam
"Have you even seen Sicko? It is not fully kind to Hillary Clinton."

I refuse to support either of the two political hack you mentioned.

I am well aware of socialized medicines. I research the issue for myself and I grew up under a socialized health system.

How about you? Ever read anything or is Michael Moore the extent of your research?


Mellours
"Why does everyone get hot under the collar about being required to have health insurance, but are sanguine about auto insurance?"

Who says we're "sanguine" about any such thing? It has always been a monumentally BAD idea that drives up the cost of insurance for everyone, incents bad behavior, creates adverse selection and, ultimately, makes the roads less safe. That many have become desensitized to these problems because mandated auto insurance has been around for so long that these things are the norm, does not mean that there are not legitimate objections to it.

If driving is a "necessity" for some people (it clearly is not for others) then drivers would respond to the market incentives to drive with sufficient care to obtain auto insurance at an affordable rate. If they do not, then they are demonstrating by their actions that it is not sufficiently necessary for them to act responsibly.

A significant part of the problem with health care (and insurance) in this country that has so driven up costs is the transfer of responsibility for coverage to a third party (the employer) - in large part through governmental mandate. It is, again, the irresponsible actions of government that are the chief cause of the problem.

F1etch
"There simply is no basis for the bald assertion (or belief) that private charity cannot address this issue."

The issue is not that it cannot. It's that it does not. Go see Sicko. See the people on video explain how their sole job at the insurance company was to find technicalities to deny insurance claims. Hear doctors testify how they were promoted for denying care. It's all much more compelling than hearing a columnist and some posters repeat what they've heard another conservative say.

Some US communities used to have private fire departments. For the most part, that turned out to be disastrous. The free market works great at the store but it doesn't work in emergencies.

Cam writes:
"The free market works great at the store but it doesn't work in emergencies."

I can walk into any ER in the country and get treated within the hour.

Free market and a (very) little bit of planning works for me.


Cam
Two problems:

1) "Have you even seen Sicko?" No one in their right mind takes ANY of the films by Michael Moore at all seriously. Much of "Sicko" is based on cherry-picked anecdotal evidence, relies upon a long discredited WHO study (that did not actually compare CARE but relied on other measures not indicative of anything) and talked up a Canadian system that is actually lethal (see "Dead Meat" online for a much more accurate portrayal).

2) The WHO statistics (deliberately?) fail to capture expenditures with any degree of accuracy. Huge percentages of expenditures in countries with socialized medicine are bried in other governmental accounts. And US expenditures are ballooned by all the costs associating with treating people from countries with socialized medicine who come here for treatment rather than endure potentially lethal delays.

To a certain extent (a number of economic analyses show this), health care expenditures are linked to prosperity - we spend more on healthcare because the wealthier we are the more we wish to allocate there, but demonstrably it is the reliance upon government that has so drastically increased the cost of care in the US so - to that extent - Star's point is indisputable.

ModMark writes:
"At least in the UK, you can drink the worlds finest ales! I did get a chance to go there once (brother-in-law is a Brit). Real Ale is the best! English Bitters rule!"

How many Australian beers have you had? Obviously you are prejudiced against Australian beer. Does that make you a beerist???

Just kidding.

skiddles
I've read three books on US health care. All reached conclusions similar to Moore. The best was Dr. John Abramson's Overdo$ed America. I saw the 60 Minutes story on how the drug companies paid Republican legislators to prevent free market forces from working by prohibiting Medicare from negotiating drug prices. I know that the candidate supported by a majority of Republicans sees the problem with pharamceutical companies and wants to restrict the influence of money in politics.

So you're afraid to see Sicko? I've read books by Ann Coulter, David Limbaugh, and other conservatives.

What's great about documentaries is that they can't stand alone on the views of the producer. They need video supporting their claims.

auto insurance model
Apples to oranges. Entirely different. Auto insurance rates go down the older one is, life and health insurance rates go up the older you become(with certain exceptions). Plus you have an option with auto insurance, you don't have to drive, it's a choice.

Another economic fallacy
I've seen "Sicko". It simply is not credible - hardly surprising given that Moore has yet to direct a "documentary" that could bear scrutiny anyway.

The oft repeated canard is that market forces simply fail to function in the event of an "emergency". That simply is not the case. The reality is that in a market system, ALL aspects of the market must adapt to the demands of consumers. The competitive elements respond to emergency needs IN ADVANCE by providing access to services (and information about them) before the emergency circumstance takes place. It is the monopolistic regulation of health care services in this country that prevents the marketplace from devising these solutions (primarily the authority granted to the AMA).

As for the actors in Moore's video, it is simply impossible in a competitive environment for ANY company to deliberately mistreat its customers and stay in business. It is the regulatory environemnet that exists in the US (and NOT the free market) that creates such corrupt practices in the first place by creating distorted incentives to providers. It is only because providers are required to provide certain things while adhering to price caps that such activities are made possible.

"Some US communities used to have private fire departments."

That is true.

"For the most part, that turned out to be disastrous."

That is so completely contrary to reality as to be ridiculous. In fact, private fire protection services still exist and are, in some cases, thriving. New private services enhancing publicly provided services, are actually being created to manage circumstances that public services have handled poorly - such as the wildfires in California.

The free market not only works great at the store; it works great in emergencies as well. THAT is what the ACTUAL data indicates.

F1etch
We spend more on health care largely because we're one of two nations that allows direct to consumer advertizing. Our money goes to pay for the commercial of the blonde running on the beach selling alergy medicine. Some viewers then go and demand the medicine from their doctors whether they need it or not. Having been sent on a golf junket by the pharmaceutical company (and given even more gifts), the doctor is likely willing to prescribe the drug.

So you're afraid to see Sicko too? As I told skiddles, I've read books by several conservative authors.

Watch for yourself as the 9-11 rescue workers are turned down for treatment in the US but can get it Cuba.

Cam
Again, "Sicko" doesn't pass muster. See "Dead Meat" online. Look up the wait and death statistics at Health Canada (the official source) or at the Fraser Institute (with analysis). Look up a book called "Lives at Risk" that tells the REAL story of health care conditions under socialized medicine. Look up the flaws in the WHO study (featured prominently in "Sicko") that blast the use of official statistics from places like Cuba, that assume socialized medicine is a de facto substitute for access to care, that NEVER actually addresses quality of care (which is FAR superior here) but instead relies upon such factors as life expectancey, heavily influenced by genetics and behavior as opposed to care quality.

The reliable research is out there. Cherry picking publications that purport to show the superiority of socialized medicine is NOT the same thing as actually researching the subject.

F1etch
"actors" huh? We're getting back to denial.

Perhaps you recall the part in Sicko that notes that not even Margaret Thatcher wanted to remove Britain's government-run health care system. Why didn't Thatcher and why haven't all of these other democracies tried to get rid of their government run health care systems?

Cam - the sequel
"We spend more on health care largely because we're one of two nations that allows direct to consumer advertizing."

What is this? A canard-fest?

"Our money goes to pay for the commercial of the blonde running on the beach selling alergy medicine."

In fact, the medications that are most subject to advertising and are, thus, less encumbered by federal regulation have not only grown in expense by a far lesser amount but in many cases (i.e., Lasik surgey) have FALLEN in price. It is in the highly regulated sectors - those areas most subject to government involvement - where the price has skyrocketed. This is another oft-repeated "reason" for the problem that simply does not bear scrutiny.

"So you're afraid to see Sicko too?"

I've SEEN it - IT IS PURE FICTION.

"As I told skiddles, I've read books by several conservative authors."

MM-hmmm.

"Watch for yourself as the 9-11 rescue workers are turned down for treatment in the US but can get it Cuba."

The pretense that this tells anyone anything about the relative care in either country (particularly given that care has not been "denied") is absurd on its face.

Beer/wine
ModMark writes: "At least in the UK, you can drink the worlds finest ales! I did get a chance to go there once (brother-in-law is a Brit). Real Ale is the best! English Bitters rule!"

True, but Australia has some great wines. Get yourself a Shiraz Viognier, pioneered, as it happens by the French, but carried to great heights by the Ozzies. Esp. Clonakilla.

Or a GSM (Grenache, Shiraz, Morvedre). Or an SSB (Semillon Sauvignon blanc). When I ask for a GSM or an SSB in the US they have no idea whereof I speak.

Or their stickies.

OTOH, Argentinean Malbecs are fantastic. Just bought a ticket SYD-SIN-LHR-MIA-CCS-SCL-LAX-SFO-SYD. Maybe I'll take a trip over the Andes from SCL to Mendoza. Mmmmm. Drool.

Part III
"actors huh?"

As I made abundantly clear, the people are real (albeit cherry picked as if they represented a significant phenomenon - they don't) but are the result of government involvement - not due to insufficient involvement.

"[N]ot even Margaret Thatcher wanted to remove Britain's government-run health care system. Why?"

Gee. Maybe because its politically unpopular? Who'd have thought THAT?!?!? Does it speak to the viability of universal (sic) care? Not even remotely.

highly regulated
You sound like government oversight of pharmaceutical companies is bad. That oversight has plummeted unter Bush. I'd recommend the book Overdo$ed America. Read for yourself how the companies misrepresent their findings and people die as a result. I think the figure is on the order of 180,000 Americans dying each year from legal drug use.

The bottom line is:

Government is sometimes good and sometimes bad.

Companies are sometimes good and sometimes bad.

Why is that so hard to accept?

F1etch
,"Gee. Maybe because its politically unpopular? Who'd have thought THAT?!?!?"

You've completely lost me on this one. Are the British (and all other industrialized nations)stupid? In the free marketplace of ideas wouldn't all the miserable masses in Britain jump to support anyone who could liberate them from the hell of government run health care?

Mod Mark: Making Love in a Canoe
Why is drinking Budweiser like making love in the bottom of a canoe?

It's f'g close to water.

F1etch
And your counter example of private fire fighting companies, don't those involve governments researching and awarding long term contracts to a single provder? That's much different from every butcher, baker, and candlestick maker having to research health care and choose a company.

Fletch
Spot on as usual...email me at echo11eagle@yahoo.com--I have a few good questions for you! Thanks, Nee

Fact vs. fiction
"You sound like government oversight of pharmaceutical companies is bad."

Pretty much.

One of the basic problems with agenda driven books such as "Overdosed in America" is that they make alarmist claims even when the data is readily available from reliable sources. If 180,000 people a year are dying from overpresrciptions, then how is it, according to CDC data, between 1999 and 2004, a total of 20,950 deaths can be attributed to it (looks like about 4,000 to me) which undermines the cridibility of the work. It, too, is simply not reliable counting on the unwillingness of people who are predisposed to accept its message to actually look into the matter further.

"Government is sometimes good (true, but rarely) and sometimes bad. (quite often)"

"You've completely lost me on this one. Are the British (and all other industrialized nations)stupid?"

As far as the electorate is concerned, it's odd that you feel the need to ask the question. Socialism as an economic system has been thoroughly and completely debunked as a viable system and still literally billions of people are wedded to it.

Again, no...
"And your counter example of private fire fighting companies, don't those involve governments researching and awarding long term contracts to a single provder?"

Absolutely not. I am talking about ENTIRELY private fire fighting services which still exist and the supplemental services mentioned are also entirely private. Private contractors bidding for government contracts is an entirely separate issue.

Thanks, Nee
...as always. Send 'em too me at fletch15@comcast.net. I'm headed home and will take a look in an hour or so.

Til then...

F1etch
"Socialism as an economic system has been thoroughly and completely debunked as a viable system and still literally billions of people are wedded to it."

This is the kind of mess people get into when they rely on their own life experiences rather than seeing "Dead Meat" online, looking up the wait and death statistics at Health Canada (the official source) or at the Fraser Institute (with analysis), and looking up a book called "Lives at Risk" that tells the REAL story of health care conditions under socialized medicine.

To Slaker
Hillary's plan will be government insurance..not various private companies..Remember she believes in government

F1etch and skiddles
Your faith in market-driven health care depends on people being aware of the performance of various health care providers. Should Michael Moore be commended for exposing the poor performance of several health care providers in a national film?

ModMark: You need more research
"I am a "Hmmm good" wine drinker."

What you need is is more research. Buy a few bottles of the same grape, invite a few people over, put the bottles in numbered paper bags, and check each one out. See which one comes out best. (The correlation between "Hmmm good" and price is not clear.)

Be sure to run the experiment on the second sip with some food. Evaluations will change.

But don't overdo it, or you may end up on the street bearing a cardboard sign reading "Need money for alcohol research."

The free market and Michael Moore
"This is the kind of mess people get into when they rely on their own life experiences..."

Yes, that's correct. It is a strange phenomenon that frequently liberals cannot grasp that individual anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS - without exception - completely useless as a means of assessing societal problems and solutions particularly when the aggregated data (as in this case) is completely at odds with that anecdotal evidence.

It is similar to relying upon works such as "Overdosed in America" (and convincing oneself that one has done real research when reliable data sources (such as the CDC or, in the case of Michael Moore, Health Canada or the Census Bureau or even the WHOs definitions within the study cited) are available which directly refute the calims made in such sources. Research does not consist of seeking out material that supports one's preconceived notions; it consists of seeking the most reliable sources avaialable and making the effort to understand the data from those sources in context.

My "faith" (misused in this context) in market driven healthcare is based on a thorough understanding of basic economics and extensive research into the realities of socialized medicine. It in absolutely no way requires the awareness of individual health care providers (though the market provides this without difficulty).

"Should Michael Moore be commended for exposing the poor performance of several health care providers in a national film?"

Absolutely not. Michael Moore has absolutely no credibility of any kind. He has now directed multiple films all of which - including "Sicko" have been proven to be nothing more than blatant distortion fests. He deliberately distorts information in literally every film. Thus, if he accidentally highlights a real problem, its veracity can only be suspect based upon the reporting source. Mentioning him as a source actually UNDERMINES your case.

anecdotal?
The scene where the French doctor is making house calls - are you suggesting this was a fluke event? Wouldn't such a service have a positive influence on public health that would appear in WHO data?

If the Michael Moores don't expose poor health care provider performance, who will?

"He has now directed multiple films all of which - including "Sicko" have been proven to be nothing more than blatant distortion fests"

The truth is likely somewhere to the right of Moore. But unless the footage was scripted, it presents a compelling argument.

Too much of our health care dollar winds up on Madison Avenue and K Street. That should be obvious.

America Going Down The Drain
First Bush, Now Obama. This is no longer America! Its a fools country! Take me back to the 90s Pleeease!

America Down The Drain
First Bush, Now Obama. This is no longer America! Its a fools country! Take me back to the 90s Pleeease!

Yes, anecdotal
"The scene where the French doctor is making house calls - are you suggesting this was a fluke event?"

Yup.

"If the Michael Moores don't expose poor health care provider performance, who will?"

If the realities are what Michael Moore portrays then there should be any number of reliable sources saying comparable things and people would be dropping like flies from lack of care. It's not happening.

"But unless the footage was scripted, it presents a compelling argument."

Michael Moore has been caught on more than one occassion, scriptimg footage and staging events that never actually happened.

"Too much of our health care dollar winds up on Madison Avenue and K Street. That should be obvious."

Sure. If it were true. Again, the pharmaceuticals drawing the gret bulk of the advertising dollars are getting LESS expensive or, at the very least, less expensive in comparison to the rest of available medical care. The "we've got to do something about all this medical advertising" is entirely a red herring.

Armani
The 90's??? So, just keep what is happening to America on the down low and its no longer happening? That's what happened during the 90's.

socialism is here already!!
isn't like 60% of all healthcare dollars already spent by the US government. Ever heard of Medicare, Medicaid and the Veterans Administration?

'W' and the Republicans pushed the Medicare Prescription plan on us to the tune of an added cost of $50 billion per year. Paid for with a tax cut.

And the U.S. taxpayer gets to pay three times more for the same drug that the Canadian government pays. No wonder Big-Pharma gives such generous contributions to the Republican Party.



And when those who refuse to buy
health insurance continue to do whatever they want and hand the cost and consequences of to others while brandishing the banner of "Victim", the answer will be to take more from those who produce. It ALWAYS is. More and more until there is little or nothing for all.

We have the residuals from a formerly economically strong infrastructure to absorb socialist madness for a while, but it cannot last. Jobs have and are leaving the country, small business people are finding it increasingly more difficult to grow, and the population of the self-entitled are breeding without a care in the world. Why? Because the care is for YOU to have and the spoils for them. Its open borders and open season on the entrepeneurs and innovators. Sharks and chum.

My advice is to learn about alternative medicines, take excellent care of your health, and invest in a sauna ( the detox fx are amazing). DO NOT get sick, and plan on supporting a family of 30 or so that you never had.

NURSES BEWARE!
ALL OF YOU UTILIZATION/CASE CARE NURSES LOOKOUT!

IF HILLARY GETS HER WAY YOUR ,ALREADY DIFFICULT TASKS, WILL TAKE ON NEW DIMENSIONS. IF YOU ARE NOT LIKED NOW BY PATIENTS FOR YOUR DECISION MAKING ROLES---JUST WAIT TIL SHE GETS HER MITTS ON THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM! SHE WANTS TO MANAGE EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY-YOU ARE IN HER SIGHTS.

THE LOSERS--ALL OF US!!!

Zapdoodat
The Canadians don't have to research and produce the drugs,and they don't have the litigation problems we have.

Nothing gets "paid for" with a tax cut. I've been working for NJ state government for 24 years. NO ONE mismanages other people's money like bureaucrats. I am one person and am ordered (yes- ORDERED) to waste anywhere from $3-6,000.00 per fiscal year. Money that funds thousands of programs has to be spent whether it is needed or not, rather than budgeted or reallocated. Millions of dollars are wasted each year on junk- literally on junk. When a program does not get an increase in funding, its called a cut. No wonder democrats usually vote big government.

Hillary? How about Obama?
Both candidates are promising socialized medicine. The male Hillary on the healthcare debate is Ted Kennedy. Guess who Teddy endorsed? Yep, Obama. You have two candidates who are trying to out-left the other.

Is Harry and Louise still available? We might need them again soon.

oldsocialworker - free markets
Sorry, I was being sarcastic about the tax cut actually paying for anything.

I'm a firm believer in the free markets and strongly believe that the U.S. government should be "ruthless" when it comes to negotiating prices with the pharmaceutical companies on behalf of the taxpayer.

There's tremendous and ferocious competition in consumer electronics such as laptops, mp3 and DVD players, digital cameras, flat-screen TV's and on and on. This competition breeds better and better products and cheaper prices.

I don't see why this is different for drug companies. When the drug companies get to gauge the US taxpayers it just breeds slower innovation, higher prices and poorer quality products.

Even if you don't believe in the paragraph above, then let the U.S government pay a lower price than Canada and the Europeans. After all, most R&D happens here in the USA, no?









Two points
First, Hillary doesn`t care about either healthcare or even socialism. She cares about gaining and holding power and she will therefore cater to whatever opiate the masses are currently consuming. If people were marching in the streets for free cable tv, she would be promising it in HD.

Second, health insurance will indeed be mandatory for everyone, but paying for it is only required of those who can afford it...the "rich". In other words, white guys who work. It will be enforced in exactly the way FICA and federal income taxes are: deducted from your check. No check, no problem; and you still get the insurance card.

Moderate Mark
You are exactly right!! A social worker produces nothing, and I am well aware of that; which is precisely why I am a private sector and supply side proponent. I didn't start out that way in the early 80's, but I've got eyes to see, ears to hear , and now experience to back it all up.

I love what I do, and encourage teens to ditch the victim/dependency metality.

zapadoodat
I still think we have lawyer problems and therefore higher costs for all things medical as a result.

However, I have no doubt that there is a dark sketchy side to big pharma. I notice chronic Lyme disease, despite overwhelming evidence that it exists in epidemic proportions, goes minimized and ignored. I believe this is because "treatment" for depression, fibromyalgia, ms, anxiety, psychosis, etc... makes more money for big pharma and hospital systems than treating Lyme with antibiotics.

ModMark
I know I'm a parasite, but I prefer to keep my host well-fed, happy, and fat whenever possible!

producing nothing
financial planners, real estate agents and mortgage brokers don't really produce anything either.

Is the country getting wealthier just because people are re-financing every year?

oldsocialworker
I agree, medical malpractice is out of control.

There's also way too much money spent on the last week or month of a person's life. It's a big chunk of all health care costs.

Don't insult us!
You must think that the current state of health care in this country is just hunky dory - no matter that health care costs have doubled in this country in less than five years. Health insurer CEO's are taking home 1 billion dollar paychecks. Health care premiums are 1/3 higher than necessary due to administrative overhead. The U.S. ranks in the bottom third of industrialized countries in almost all rankings of health care. Our prescription drugs are 50% higher than other countries. Please explain to me again why we should be happy with this state of affairs? And by the way, what planet are you living on?

Michael Moore
"If the Michael Moores don't expose poor health care provider performance, who will?"

Somebody, ANYBODY, other than Michael Moore.

I can't believe anybody would actually be fool enough to post here using him as source material. You might as well use Mad Magazine.

Moore has an agenda, and for him, the Truth is simply another obstacle to get around.

He doesn't even believe his own drek -- whenever somebody calls him on the carpet, face to face, over one or another fabrication, his response is, "Hey, it's supposed to be funny! That's just a joke! Can't you take a joke?"

You are losing your country...
If you don't immediately deport 20 million plus illegal immigrants, the US you give to your children will be a socialist country. There is no reason for to think the US should be otherwise. They will out vote you and demand socialism. They are the unwashed hordes voting for Hillary's promises of socialism. If you don't defend your way of life you no longer deserve to have it.

Comment
I happen to have excellent private medical insurance and adequate private resources. So when a couple of weeks ago I picked up a prescription at the drug store and its total cost was $1250 of which Blue Cross paid 80% and my 20% co-pay was $250, I was horrified but went ahead with buying the drug (BTW, that was for one single dose). And before getting the OK to receive this drug, I had to have $800 worth of lab work and a $300 medical consultation. So the thought did occur to me, what happens to people who have the same condition I do and have neither insurance nor money? Must they just go without treatment? In a country as rich as ours? Is that moral? Is that economically practicable? Is that in the interest of the public health?

You may hate Hillarycare. You may hate Hillary. But it's no good pretending that the system we have works well, because it obviously leaves a lot of people without care. Who does that benefit?

Carol
If I understand your post, you are describing a segment of society that relies on federal and state income maintenance programs as those expecting "free" medical care. And I won't give you an argument---those folks exist. But there are a lot of high-functioning, employed youngish adults who choose not to buy medical insurance because a) they prefer spending their money for more fun things and b) they don't expect to get sick. So when they go skiing and bust their leg in three places, or when their appendix is about to burst, or when they're out to dinner and suddenly discover a violent allergy to some kind of fish they never ate before and have to be taken to the Emergency Room, they are up the creek with no boat. Universal coverage just gives everybody a boat.

I have a young friend who was not yet thirty when she was diagnosed with cancer, a tumor in the soft tissue of her thigh. Over the next two years she had twelve major surgeries, weeks and weeks of hospitalization, chemotherapy, and radiation in the attempt to save her leg. The fight was lost; in the end her leg had to be amputated. Then came all kinds of rehab. I can't begin to imagine the total cost of her illness. She is a university professor who now greets each new class with this advice: Keep up your medical insurance. Young people often think they're immune to expensive illness. They're not. Mandating insurance (a la Hillary) or making the purchase of insurance attractive (a la Obama) would be a solution.

To zapdoodat
In some course or other they taught me that the public will not support a law that goes against the values of that society. Sounds reasonable to me. So if you don't want all that money to be spent on end-of-life care, your alterative seems clear: pass a law that treatment will be withheld with all who...and there's your first problem, defining who won't get treatment. And your other problems will get worse from there. See how far you get with your new law.

To Resa
No, you don't harm only yourself if you have no medical insurance because the day you end up in an emergency room or a hospital room or an operating room, that facility is required to give you care---they can't dump you outside the door. Who do you think pays for your care? All of us who are insured; that's why our billed hospital costs are so astronomical---we've all heard the stories about $150 for a plastic tube and $1500 a day for Intensive care. And all of us who pay taxes. If you are coasting along depending on the rest of us to pay for your medical care, then you are just as much a freeloader as any welfare cheat.

And yes, healthy young people do have medical emergencies. They get appendicitis. They break a bone skiing. They have horrible accidents on the athletic field. They get stung by some insect to which they are, surprise, allergic, and go into anaphylactic shock. I have personally known a man who died of a brain aneurysm at 26, a woman who got cancer at 29, and a man who had a heart attack at 38.

Mr Right
Re "Health care should be the full responsibility of the individual". When my children were little, our pediatrician made house calls for $7. At this moment I have at hand a paper from Blue Cross telling me they paid for $800 worth of lab work, and that was from one single blood draw. "Full responsibility of the [uninsured] individual" is no longer possible in this economy. And why don't you check around and see how many individuals can handle a week on Intensive Care out-of-pocket? As for "catastrophic" insurance kicking in, you might be shocked to learn how high that hurdle is set.

Why?
"This is what I don't understand, we already spend at least $500 Billion/year (sorry, I am wiki'd out today) on these programs, so why not try to improve on these programs? Why not develop and more simplified uniform health plan and get rid of the above."

If you have a carbon monoxide leak into your home, it is not a viable solution to push out the rest of the oxtgen and find a way to modify the human respiratory system to breath carbon monoxide. It isn't a matter of speculation: the problem has been identified and it is these very same programs that are the root CAUSE of the problem. Tinkering with them will not solve it, so attempting to portray "fixing the programs" as some sort of reasonable path is simply nothing of the kind.

Don't know if you'll see this, ModMark
Existing gov't programs, like medicaid, are a teat that feeds many little pigs. Couple that with open borders and lots of dependents, and the ship costs a fortune before and while it goes down.

You are preaching to the director of music, not merely the choir!

That's the thing, Mark
Once a bureaucratic system is entrenched, no matter the service it offers, it ends up serving itself for its own sake. We in social work ultimately rely on private efforts and donations to get most things done, depsite the existence of thousands of programs.

Look at the addictions disaster, for example. The "ministry approved" and reimbursable programs have LONG waiting lists AND are useless to damaging for those who utilize them. Our "child protective" services are non-existent and wildly expensive (can't make a "value judgement"- there is no right and wrong!). People in need are system fodder. I am always telling kids that there is no system or program that is going serve up the life and results they want; its a matter of choices and working with opportunities to get out of the government service maze. The Hillarys and Obamas just don't get that their ideas are anything but "new"- they are EXACTLY why this country is in the mess its in!

unca alby
“I can't believe anybody would actually be fool enough to post here using him as source material. You might as well use Mad Magazine.

Moore has an agenda, and for him, the Truth is simply another obstacle to get around.”

I will admit that Moore has an agenda and can’t be used as an objective source. However, his films do reveal a lot on his side of the argument. Have you ever seen “Sicko”? Some of the personal stories are horrifying. The film starts out with a couple that has to move into their children’s basement because the father has had multiple heart attacks and the mother acquires cancer. The couple can not afford the medical bills and have to sell their house. There is also the story of the woman who loses her husband to cancer because her insurance company will not approve a so called “experimental” procedure.


How about the 911 rescue workers? You would think out of all citizens in this country, that at the very least these people would be given the proper medical care. However, because of the for profit health insurance industry and the bureaucratic hurdles of the state of New York, they had to suffer with their ailments for several years Moore takes the rescue workers to Cuba to receive the medical treatment they needed and that would have cost a fortune in the United States. How embarrassing is it for us as a nation that America doesn’t even provide proper care for the very citizens that risked their lives and health for the victims of 911. 13 trillion dollar economy, yea right, what waste sometimes. Hey, at least we can buy ipods on sale at Walmart.

An Enslaved Underclass
There seems to be a prevailing theme of the uninsured seeking health care that others must pay for. And that is the truth. Another truth is that this condition should never have been allowed to get started. I am not responsible for other people's debts, be it housing, health care, or food. The liberals have enslaved an entire underclass of society who has been taught irresponsibility. Instead they should have been taught to get a job, pay their own bills, and be self-reliant.

The Katrina thing that someone mentioned is a prime example. Think about it. You know you live 12 feet below sea level. For days you hear that a big storm is coming. Any rational human would get out of the way; did this happen in New Orleans? Not at all. The people were too stupid to remove themselves, like they were instructed to do. Instead they stayed behind and have whined ever since. Don't tell me that they had no transportation, either. There were abandoned cars all over town and by watching those people loot the stores in the city, I know that they could have hot-wired any car in a matter of minutes.

People need to take care of themselves.

Mark, i think there are a few
things that need to happen.

First is tort reform: "No- you do not get a few million dollars for being a life-long smoker then contracting cancer" "No, you do not sue the pharmacuetical company because you took Xanax, Ambien, did a few shooters and almost ended up dead" "No, you do not sue your doctor because you had a genetic predisposition to having a baby with CP"... You get the picture.

Then there is CLOSE THE BORDERS TO ILLEGALS!! Countries who utilize socialized medicine:A. ration it for their own citizens and B. Non-citizens must pay- no exceptions . EVERYONE here gets health care- and that's not lost on foreigners who come to get charity care.

Here I tamper with the Golden Calf: Those on public assistance MUST utilize birth control via injection and stop having baby after baby after baby after baby. Sound draconian? No more draconian than pillaging wage earners to support the sefishness and irresponsibility of others who do nothing but take from society.


This is a GREAT start on dealing with health care cost. From there, keep it consumer driven.

KATZ
Your post is ssensible and correct. Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco never expected to have to DO anything other than pontificate and enjoy cushy gov't jobs. They reflect the mentality of many of those affected by Katrina: If something bad happens, find someone to blame and get others to fix it. I saw image after image of able bodied young men and women standing around like lowing cattle waiting to be tended to. Its without excuse. Enough with the victim colonies already.

lilly, I'm glad you have good coverage
But those days are over for the rest of us. Even if Hillary's plan is implemented, there's NO WAY we can offer benefits like yours to EVERYONE. Lil, I see people everyday who have 6 or more kids, who then begin procreating in their teens , and on it goes. I'm all for gov't subsidized birth control, but it is REJECTED by those who intentionally keep reproducing "needy" children. Add to that the open borders, and we are providing health care for other countries as well. If you've ever dealt with addicts or others who are completely out of control, you know that those people can bankrupt Microsoft if given access to the coffers. We are already not the richest country in the world anymore because of the great society garbage and things will only get worse.

Those in favor of "insurance for everyone" never factor in personal choice and behaviors, which is precisely what needs to be dealt with.

I like health savings accounts
What we need to head off is this: Some retaining lawyers to "get the money they are entitled to" to use for another purpose. This will absolutely happen.


In social work, the big thing is delivering services "respectfully", which means pretending that all clients are victims of unfortunate things that just happen and their personal choices and behaviors have nothing to do with their situations. There will be "advocates" who want to avoid "stigmatizing" those on public assistance and will insist ALL of society be on the same program.

Health savings accounts is the plan I like best, though.

katz
“Think about it. You know you live 12 feet below sea level. For days you hear that a big storm is coming. Any rational human would get out of the way; did this happen in New Orleans? Not at all. The people were too stupid to remove themselves”

Well it appears you’re too stupid or just too ignorant to know that not every American owns a car, nor does every American have residence outside their home town or city. There were also many children left to starve and drown, these children had no control over their situation. Most of the residents did leave New Orleans before the storm hit. However, there were thousands who did not leave because they did not have the economic resources to go anywhere. There were also families that had disabled and elderly family members that could not be easily moved without some sort of assistance.


If you think that all poor people are irresponsible and lazy, that’s fine, and your opinion. But advocating the idea that our country should leave people to drown and die because they are poor and so called irresponsible and lazy is morally reprehensible.

Anthony Thomas
You have an impressive gift for assigning thoughts to people that they didn't express. Katz did not imply people should be left to drown; rather, Katz is for personal empowerment so people AREN'T in position to drown, starve, etc...

Anthony Thomas
How many children starved to death or drowned in New Orleans? Can you tell me that? It is difficult to starve to death in a matter of days. It is especially difficult when one of the major health concerns of the children in the nation is obesity. The American taxpayer feeds these people entirely too well for them to be starving in a short period of time.

I watched one set of the downtrodden being rescued in boats; the water did not even cover the socks of the rescurer. Could the forlorn not have walked out of water 4 inches deep? I could have.

As for transportation, I addressed that; hot wire a car and go. That aside, had they wanted transportation, I have no doubt they could have obtained it. Those people were having a fine time looting the stores. I noticed alot of television sets and other such items being hauled off; I saw precious little food being wagged out. Maybe they did not want to leave town. Consider that. As for where to go? That would the problem of each adult in that city and I guarantee you, had those people wanted to leave, they could have.

I did not say that all poor people are lazy and irresponsible. I said that there is an enslaved underclass that has become incapable of caring for itself because of liberal intervention. I also made no reference at all to the instutionalized elderly or the disable who were, indeed, at the mercy of their caretakers. There was, however, a Mayor in town that might have been contacted. It would have been his responsibility to help those people.

Furthermore, Sir, this country is not morally reprehensible; most of us have, however, enough sense to come in out of the rain.

Promiscuous?
Good article. But, to say HPV is transmitted through promiscuous behavior is inaccurate.
"At least 50 percent of sexually active men and women acquire genital HPV infection at some point in their lives. By age 50, at least 80 percent of women will have acquired genital HPV infection." - http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV.htm#common

Anthony Thomas re: New Orleans
Why don't you mention, SIR, why the corrupt DEMOCRAT mayor of New Orleans did not implement the disaster evacuation plan that had been in place for years? Why don't you mention the incompetent DEMOCRAT ditz who was governor of Louisiana and PREVENTED private and federal disaster assistance teams from entering the city immediately? Funny, isn't it, how FEMA was perfectly competent a year earlier when four hurricanes ravaged a Republican-run state. Funny, isn't it, how the Mississippi Gulf coast has done perfectly fine in recovering from Katrina.

I used to live in New Orleans. It may be the most Third World of all American cities, precisely because both the city and the state have been run by a corrupt political machine for decades. As usual, your blind partisanship completely destroys what little credibility you may possess.

ModMark
"But once again, what is the reasonable path for Medicaid? Just keep it the same or it seems you support just eliminated all together."

You have assessed my position correctly.

"I believe there are solutions out there, I am in agreement with Elko.mike ideas."

elko.mike has also expressly suggested the elimination of governmental charity in favor of the unimpeded free market. He has gone as far as to suggest that the governmental interventions that promote employer-provided health insurance coverage should be eliminated as well. It is another point of agreement between us.

Not Katrina again
Ine every other locale that has been subject to severe hurricane damage (mostly in Florida, but in the Carolinas as well) the populace had plenty of warning that a storm was coming and (regardless of the level of personal resources available to them) took it upon themselves to "get out of Dodge". But New Orleans is a different animal. More than nearly anywhere else in the country, the populace of New Orleans has been sucking at the teat of public assistance. They felt "entitled" to be taken care of. It, in their minds, simply was not THEIR responsibility to take care of themselves and many (very few of whom were children) simply waited for someone else to tell them what to do or were trapped in state run facilities (mostly for the elderly).

The deaths in New Orleans were flatly NOT due to a lack of resources; but rather to a lack of initiative that our perverted Welfare State created. It WAS a failure of government, but not a lack of doing something at the time, but rather the warped incentives our public charity system created.

Health Police! Beware!
Neither Hillary nor any other politician really cares about the health status of Americans. Notice, they are promoting health insurance, not necessarily health care. This is one more manner of incursion into private lives, one more form of control. Once the government pays for health insurance, the erosion of private rights escalates. Already the public has been threatened by she who would be president, the garnishment of wages of the noncompliant. Then, there will be penalties for being overweight, for smoking, for eating certain foods, for not exercising according to protocol, for drinking, for getting inadequate sleep, for restaurants who do not toe the line, and on and on. The Health Police will be out in full force! I wonder if the noncompliant will be fined or jailed? I am waiting for a government-mandated menu, myself. There needs to be an understanding that the health care mess has been created by governmental interference as well as regulatory bodies who impose standards that are both unnecessary and expensive. Trial lawyers have not helped the situation, either. There need to be changes to the current system, but these changes do not need to come from the government.

Killer
“It is difficult to starve to death in a matter of days.”

Great justification for leaving the poor citizens in New Orleans without any food and water. When was the last time you went “a matter of days” without food or water?

“It is especially difficult when one of the major health concerns of the children in the nation is obesity”

Ok I see your logic. I guess it’s ok for a child to go without food for “a matter of days” as long as they are fat.

“I watched one set of the downtrodden being rescued in boats; the water did not even cover the socks of the rescurer. Could the forlorn not have walked out of water 4 inches deep? I could have.”

I guess the “downtrodden” you watched from the comforts of your home represented the ENTIRE condition of New Orleans after the storm. Yea that makes sense.

“As for transportation, I addressed that; hot wire a car and go. That aside, had they wanted transportation, I have no doubt they could have obtained it”

Now you’re advocating stealing to justify your ignorant point of view.

“Those people were having a fine time looting the stores. I noticed alot of television sets and other such items being hauled off; I saw precious little food being wagged out”

Hmmm “those people”. You have some issues my friend. Also, not all the poor citizens of New Orleans looted after the storm. Your generalization of an entire group of people is very troubling.

“I did not say that all poor people are lazy and irresponsible”

Yes you did, you implied exactly that in your post, I can read between the lines. You sure didn’t offer any favorable opinion of the poor in your post to balance out your opinion. What else is one to think?


“I also made no reference at all to the instutionalized elderly or the disable who were, indeed, at the mercy of their caretakers”


Killer p2
Yea I know. I offered that bit of information to debunk your ignorant assertion that all Katrina victims were, as you say “too stupid to remove themselves”

“Furthermore, Sir, this country is not morally reprehensible”

I never said it was, I was suggesting you were morally reprehensible because of your post.

Fletch