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Monday, November 26, 2007
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
The unfair rap against Mike Huckabee
by Star Parker
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What's going on with Mike Huckabee?

With little resources, and with a GOP presidential candidacy hovering in obscurity through the summer, the former Arkansas governor is now running in a dead heat with Mitt Romney in the lead in Iowa.

The former Massachusetts governor's spending in Iowa has been 10 times greater than Huckabee's and, until this week, Huckabee had not run a single ad (versus Romney, whose ads have already run over 5,000 times).

In various national polls, Huckabee is coming in a solid third behind former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and former Tennessee Sen. Fred Thompson.

The Washington Post's David Broder provides one hint about the fuel that might be propelling Huckabee. He says that, according to veteran Democratic pollster Peter Hart, the attributes that are pushing voters' buttons this year are "transparency, authenticity and unity."

A just-released The Economist/YouGov poll shows Huckabee doing well in these areas. Republican voters rate him first in both honesty and morality.

The long campaign and the plethora of pre-primary televised debates have been helpful to Huckabee, whose appeal has come through to voters, but who has not had a lot of resources for his own marketing. He has come off as genuine and not like a candidate, in Huckabee's words, "who's sort of the culmination of a room full of consultants."

There is little question that on social issues that Huckabee, a Baptist minister, is the real deal. This is playing well among Iowa Republicans, a third of whom are evangelicals and 70 percent of whom are conservatives.

But what about the rap against him that he is a populist with little regard for traditional Republican proclivities for unfettered markets and limited government?

He's been accused by the Club for Growth of "big-government liberalism" and called by conservative columnist Jonah Goldberg a "statist."

There's some justification, of course, to these labels. Huckabee invites them when he expresses reservations about free trade, which he does, when he talks about energy independence, which he does, and when he endorses ideas such as a nationally mandated ban on smoking in public places.

But there are important strains in what Huckabee is about that defy simple labels, and in this sense these accusations and generalizations are not legitimate.

When Huckabee says that "strong families are the foundation of a strong country," he means this. This is not a Hillary Rodham Clinton-like political throw-away line.

The traditional-values agenda is as much an economic initiative as anything else.

It's family breakdown and values breakdown that drive poverty in our country today. Poor families are overwhelmingly single-parent families.

Crime and unemployment among black males is a values crisis, and transforming these young men to productive beings is an economic as well as a values initiative. This is anything but statism.

It's tough to see how someone who wants to get rid of the IRS, which Huckabee's "fair tax" initiative would do, can be thought of as someone who loves big government.

His plan, which would replace the income tax with a national sales tax, has plenty of detractors, including those who see it as politically impossible to achieve.

But how do you argue with the idea of taxing consumption rather than income and production, and freeing every American family of having to share every intimate detail of their economic life with the government?

On health care, Huckabee has repudiated mandated universal coverage and supports reforms that would allow individuals the same tax preferences for purchasing health coverage as employers and that would allow a national market, rather than our current state-regulated fiefdoms, for buying health care Sounds pretty darned free-market to me.

On Social Security, Huckabee's plan would eliminate the payroll tax and he has expressed support for the idea of personal retirement accounts.

And, of course, Huckabee is a hard-core supporter of understanding the Second Amendment as protection of the rights of individuals to bear arms.

So the simple big-government-loving box into which many want to stick Huckabee is just not an accurate picture of the man. Do I agree with many of the criticisms in areas where he does want to turn to government? Yes.

Mike Huckabee is not a simple guy. But life is not simple. However, he is honest, he is clear and many, including me, appreciate his unequivocal stand for the traditional values that are critical for the future of this country.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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I Don't Know...
I'm conservative and attend church, but I'm afraid of the Big Brother label that Huckabee has attached to him. I also understand he raised taxes considerably as governor. Whenever possible, I make my judgments based on what someone does, not what someone says.

I'll vote for the guy in a general election, but I hope it doesn't get to that point.

Ditto SimJim
A perfectly acceptable substitute if my first choice does not make it.

Huckabee means issues, not names
Huckabee represents the hope that this election will not be a popularity contest, but it will come down to issues. Marriage, abortion, Iraq, borders, the right to keep and bear arms--and everything else that Bill Clinton's wife doesn't want to talk about!

PS Taxes in Arkansas were raised for roads. Roads! (There was a balanced budget bill passed that he was working within.)

Huckabee
Anybody who has a firm belief that the Fairtax would work if passed as is, gets my vote in a heartbeat. Itwould mean an end to easy way to screw small segments of the taxpayers one at a time instead of upsetting everyone equally with an across the board tax increase when they want to grease the skids in their district. I know that the Fairtax has an uphill battle, and congress will fight tooth and nail to keep 1/2 of their social engineering hammer, but they will still have the ability to spend much more than they take in ....... for now.

Bren

Huckster is a big government CINO!
Use of big government to achieve traditionally conservative goals is not conservatism....it's statism. The last thing we need is more government in our lives.

All real conservatives should oppose Huckster. I know I do.

CLOSE, BUT NO CIGAR
Mrs. Parker writes, "Crime and unemployment among black males is a values crisis, and transforming these young men to productive beings is an economic as well as a values initiative".


She ALMOST made it through an article without injecting race. Star, there's hope for you yet.

Huckabee: a Huey Long Huckster
Mike Huckabee is the sort of social conservative statist that should make all neo-cons, economic cons and libertarians quake in their boots. He lost 100 pounds off his fat behind, so he gets on the hustings to mandate public health. He raised taxes and increased state spending more than the Clintons,yet he takes on the Club for Growth for telling the truth.

Mike Hucakbee the new Huey Long.

digger writes
Drugs and unemployment among young black males and females is an issue where I live also.

If it is an issue where she lives why would she not say so?

Unfortunately those issues are arising among young white males and females also.

Doris
Do you really think that unemployment amongst black males are a problem where Mrs. Parker lives?

BTW, who's digger?

Huh?
Banning the IRS and having a consumption tax takes government out of the pick-and-choose game of social engineering.

"On health care, Huckabee has repudiated mandated universal coverage and supports reforms that would allow individuals the same tax preferences for purchasing health coverage as employers and that would allow a national market, rather than our current state-regulated fiefdoms, for buying health care Sounds pretty darned free-market to me."

Sounds like slight of hand to me. A Hllary-like plan to claim to opposite conepts in the same breath. Who is he kidding?

I don't(heart) Huckabee.
.

Mike Huckabee: How to fix Washington

If
"It's tough to see how someone who wants to get rid of the IRS, which Huckabee's "fair tax" initiative would do, can be thought of as someone who loves big government."

His FairTax initiative? Try Neal Boortz and John Linder. If Huckabee supports that, he can't be all bad but it implies he wants to change government, reform it, not reduce it. He sure sounds like a big government social con to me, one who would promote virtue over liberty--virtue is great, just not government's business--so he won't get my vote.

What's going on with the Huckster?
Simple.

The mainstream media has finally figured out that no one can stomach Rudy, Mitt is a Mormon, Thompson is a bore, and McAmnesty is dead in the water, so they've pulled out the next prankster that is amenable to their agenda. Just happens to be Huck.
He's the "anything but Paul" candidate.

P.S.
Huckabee's record proves that he is pro-amnesty for illegals and never met a tax he didn't like. Against school vouchers (unless you're illegal, in which case he's for FREE college tuition); and he wants to dictate your lifestyle (national smoking ban).

Beware the Huckster and think about why the media are pushing him so hard...

Hunter
I know he is lagging behind. But, Hunter "appears" to be right on most issues for me. Especially on issues like guns and immigration...er uh ILLEGAL immigration and radical islam (small letters intended)

P.S.S.
Someone please, do tell me how the Huckster (or any politician) would create "strong families." Is there legislation for this?

Geez.

My bet is it's a talking point that goes over well with the so-called "values voters." Get a brain!

Huckabee and the Fair Tax
The way I see it, the Fair Tax will reduce the influence of government in our lives. It will give US more control over our lives. It will eliminate the IRS, the K Street lobbyists and Jesse Jackson.

Huckabee and the Fair Tax could be the last hope for us to take the government back from the professional political class.

And you say the Fair Tax could never happen?

With the election of Huckabee with a mandate from the people, not by big donors or personal wealth, there will be no question what message we are sending to Congress. And Mike is the best, most sincere speaker in the field, Republican or democrat. He can use us, in this day of email and blogs, to force the "establishment" congress to pass the Fair Tax bill.

Miracles still happen.

It's a shame
that the only republican in the race FOR HR25 is Mike Huckabee. I have been a proponent for over three yrs. When he started to pull ahead in Iowa I figured it was his advocacy of the Fair Tax which is hugely popular with average citizens.

Has anyone seen the endorsement ad he does with Chuck Norris? Chuck doesn't seem like a Huckabee guy to me. But then what do I know.

The Fair Tax....LOL....
It may START OUT "fair," seeming to force more of us to pay our "fair" share of taxes.

But who gets the last laugh when the government decides we all must "fairly" share a higher percentage of taxes...and increase the rate from 23% to 25% to 30% to 50% to 100%?

Never trust the government. Do not believe what they tell you. You will play the fool.

Ron Paul wants a FLAT TAX at a 0% rate. Now that's a tax I can put up with.

pianogirl
I agree you can't trust the government, but when it comes to the Fair Tax, the pols would have a very difficult time increasing it because of its transparency.

Right now with the seizure of funds upfront, most Americans have NO IDEA how much they pay in taxes. With the Fair Tax, you can't miss it! The gov't would actually have to TELL people that they are raising our taxes. See how many in Congress would be on board for that idea if their re-election is on the line.

Fair Tax needs bureaucracy anyway
"It's tough to see how someone who wants to get rid of the IRS, which Huckabee's "fair tax" initiative would do, can be thought of as someone who loves big government."

No, that's easy to see.

How can a "Fair Tax" (a national sales tax) be enforced on every little transaction that takes place in the entire country, from buying a pack of chewing gum at the local convenience store all the way up to deals between major corporations, without a huge new reporting bureaucracy? How will the Government assess compliance?

Would YOU like to report to the U.S. Government every single thing you bought and sold this year, with a declaration of the tax paid on it?

You would just end up replacing the IRS bureaucracy with a Sales Tax bureaucracy.

for elong
elong says: "I agree you can't trust the government, but when it comes to the Fair Tax, the pols would have a very difficult time increasing it because of its transparency."

A Fair Tax would be even MORE intrusive than the income tax, once the Government imposed reporting requirements on all of us.

How is the Government going to enforce compliance? By making everyone who sells anything report that to the Government!

So the next time your neighbor has a yard sale, he or she will have to report every item sold (and tax collected on it) to the Government. Every time you buy a pack of chewing gum at a convenience store, the store owner will have to report that to the Federal Government. And so on.

Reporting every purchase and sale to the Government is even more bureaucratic and intrusive than reporting income is now. That's why nations that have imposed national sales taxes (such as some in Europe) have NOT done away with their bureaucracies. The bureaucracies have only gotten bigger.

Lest we forget
America's worst president ever, Jimmy Carter, was also a Southern Baptist who touted his moraltiy without a shred of humility.

SteveL
READ THE BOOK!

The Fair Tax is on NEW goods and services ONLY. Yard Sales, i.e. used goods do not get taxed.

How can a tax that you pay ONLY when you buy something be more intrusive than your earnings being scrutinized by the gov't every year? On top of that how can it be more intrusive than YOUR money be confiscated before you get your paycheck?

Let me ask you this. How do the states muddle through with their sales taxes? It's the same thing.

The States would be required to collect the fed tax much the same way they collect their own state taxes.

Read the book. Read the bill. or go to fairtax.org to educate yourself.

Do You Want To Keep Your Country?


Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. We must elect a President who WILL secure the border and enforce the law. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

There is a huge majority of American citizens waiting for someone to pledge to uphold the laws and secure the borders, let's not ignore them any more.

http://www.gohunter08.com

SteveL
Are you serious? You don't think that states impose taxes on gum now?

People who try to say that HR25 would be more intrusive than the IRS are being nieve. And the 23% tax would be right there on the reciept. Only an idiot would not be able to see if it were raised. And no one is suggesting that the people won't have to carefully watch congress so that they WON'T raise the tax. That being said, it is completely transparent.

I heard Mitt Romney on Bill Bennett totally misreprsent the Fair Tax this morning. He said it was a 33% tax on EVERYTHING. THIS IS NOT TRUE. 23% people. Not 33%. There is NO TAX on used goods ( used cars, homes, clothes, toys, whatever ). And EVERYONE gets a prebate up to the poverty level for basic necessities such as food.

And sense the illegals are here anyway, they might as well help pay for all the resources they suck dry. Folks, go to the library and get the book. It's an easy informative read. Or better yet, buy the book!

Huckabee's Problem
First, He is a Baptist minister. Operative word is "Baptist". Huckabee went to seminary but many Baptist ministers get to the podium by "getting the calling". That borders on a cult and I just don't like the will of the smooth talker being the driving force in a Christian Church or in the Oval Office.
Secondly, Huckbee looks far too much like Gomer Pyle. I like Gomer but can Huckabee sing and say "Gaaaleee? Who will be his running mate--a Barney Fife look alike?

Increasing the Fair Tax rate...
Pianogirl says - "But who gets the last laugh when the government decides we all must "fairly" share a higher percentage of taxes...and increase the rate from 23% to 25% to 30% to 50% to 100%?"

Hey PG - It's easy to raise taxes on individual groups or "special interests"... playing one lobby group they don’t like off against another group that they do like. But the FairTax would force lawmakers to apply the national sales tax's flat rate to everyone Equally whether it’s you, me or Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey or Warren Buffet… so raising the rate could be attacked as increasing taxes on those of us considered to be poor.

Besides, look at the tax reforms in other countries that have gone to a flat rate tax system. In virtually every case, those countries have had an increase in economic activity and had to decrease their universal tax rate due to the surplus revenue generated.


elong
LOL!!

I type too slow! You beat me to it. : p

To pianogirl
No, there's no legislation for creating strong families: "strong families" is hype. The GOP has done well with slogans, which are easily understood and remembered and which influence voters on an emotional level. Thus they guarantee that a large percentage of non-thinking people will support the politician who uses the slogan. Other examples: "Law & Order" (code for "no segregation" in the 1960's); "Cut & Run" (to demonize all who opposed Bush's war in Iraq); "Tax & Spend" (an oldie aimed at Democrats but wisely avoided since Bush's Republican Congress outspent the Democrats, although that Congress would be better-described by "Borrow & Spend"); "Tree-Hugger" (intended to make fun of environmentalists, who threaten the profit margin of Corporate America); "Doom & Gloom" (a line so old that it was taken from the 1940's musical "Finian's Rainbow", but still used by conservatives who think they're being clever; often used to ridicule Democrats' voice of reality); and "Flip-Flopper" (used by the GOP to make fun of John Kerry but not much used by them since Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani appeared on the horizon).

Not to mention
How many businesses that flew the coop would come back knowing that the IRS would be off their a$$? It could translate to one he!! of an economic boon.

Here's some 'green eye shade' tax data -
Gov Huckabee vs. Gov Romney
State+Local Tax Burden

As a percent of income, the per year tax burden increase of:
Huckabee & Arkansas: 0.11%
Romney & Massachusetts: 0.175%

In terms of actual, inflation-adjusted dollars, a per year tax burden increase of:
Huckabee and Arkansas: $70.98
Romney and Massachusetts: $139.19

The following is a comparison between Huckabee and Romney with respect to tax burden as a percent of total income during their tenures as governor.

Arkanasas' Tax Burden as a Percent of Income
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/442.html

Using 1996 and 2007 for Huckabee, the state+local tax burden for Ark citizens went from 10.1% of income to 11.3% of income for an increase of 1.2% over 11 years (Governor Huckabee serving for 10 and a half of those), or an average of .11% per year.

MA Tax Burden as a Percent of Income
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/460.html

Using 2002 and 2006 for Mitt Romney, the state+local tax burden for MA citizens went from 9.8% to 10.5% over 4 years for an average increase of .175% per year.


Huckabee vs. Romney - Tax Burden in Actual Dollars (inflation adjusted to the year 2000)
http://www.pnreap.org/United_States/comparative-trends-anal ysis.php?indicator=Per_Capita_Income
(choose Arkansas then Massachusetts on the right, then click on "Generate & Display Output"; when the next screen appears, scroll down to the graph at the bottom: "Arkansas and Massachusetts: Per Capita Income, 1969-2006")

Arkansas' tax burden in actual dollars = $2,043.43

Massachusetts' tax burden in actual dollars = $3,678.53

Conclusion:
Under Huckabee, increase of $70.98 per year.
Under Romney, increase of $139.19 per year.


I'm just not ready...
...For any more politicians out of Arkansas.

And if I were, Huckabee isn't in the running.

Mean-spirited and sneaky, his is a campaign of deception. Perhaps not 'Clintonesque' but, to be blunt,

I don't trust him. His actions do not match his words, his stances are of convenience, not conviction, he strikes me a shallow, pandering and if not already bought, there are buyers kicking the tires.

Fair tax is unfair, see flat tax.......

The fair tax is a stupid and moronic method of taxing everybody. It creates more problems than it solves.

The flat tax is the only way to go, a single low rate for all at about 10 to 12% of your purchase.

Don't be fooled by the "fair" tax. It is not the "flat" tax.



Parker's Fairer Views on Huckabee
No question Gov. Huckabee's views on many issues run counter to what most of the hard-core and self-designated modern day political pharisees call true conservatism; i.e. Reaganism/Goldwaterism. The same goes for Mitt Romney (a bust of a governor, even much worse than Mike Dukakis on all sides of the fence), and as for Rudy, shoot-first-investigate-apologize-later, Guiliani, a real "statist" if there ever was one walking in GOP drag, at least Star Parker's column gives a much fairer view about Huckabee than Bob Novak's rip-job.

What's more important: a man's overall integrity. Or just plain electability and his ability to kiss enough behinds to win a nomination while gasping towards Labor Day and hopefully beyond that. No wonder whomever gets elected will be too hobbled to lead as he (or she) ought to be able to.

Rogers, Arkansas
Star,

I like you. You're a breath of fresh air in a stuffy room. But this time you haven't done your research.

Huckabee is illegal alien central for the state of Arkansas. Tyson Farms bought him the same way they bought the Clintons, and Bush. One need only look at the rampant female trafficking still continuing in Rogers, Arkansas. Oh, and the continued illegal importation of aliens to depress wages in the (already) poorest sector of the American workforce.

http://www.rogersarkansas.com/police/criminalinvestigation. asp

These crimes were instigated with the modal silence of the state governments. Slavery by any other name, is still an evil we cannot support.

onceamarine
Donde has estado escondido??

Has leido el libro sobre el Fair Tax? Yo lo tengo, pero no empesado. Todavia nesesito terminar mis libros de John Ringo, y el de Ann Coulter, tambien.

Joe, tricky dicky

Lot's of misinfo in how you do your tax increases.

For instance a tax increase from 10.1% to 11.3%, you call a 1.2% increase. Wrong that's an 11.88% increase. Try it. Multiply 10.1 by 111.88 equals 11.3, not by subtracting 10.1 from 11.3 to get 1.2%.
If you do it the old fashioned way multiply 10.1 by 11.88 and add to 10.1 it's still 11.3.

The rest of your numbers are just as wrong although for a variety of reasons. To start with the people in Massachusetts make at least twice what the average Arkansas citizen makes.

Figures don't lie only liars figure.

Typical sell job we get from politicians.


onceamarine
"The fair tax is a stupid and moronic method of taxing everybody. It creates more problems than it solves. "


Care to elaborate? Otherwise your **opinion** is meaningless.

"The flat tax is the only way to go, a single low rate for all at about 10 to 12% of your purchase."


Eh? When a "flat tax" is spoken of, it generally means tax on INCOME, not consumption. The Fair Tax IS a flat tax on consumption. What is your problem with it?

Warrior says...
"Secondly, Huckbee looks far too much like Gomer Pyle."

Hmmmm.... I thought he had more than a passing resemblance to Kevin Spacey. Regardless, is fear of Baptist ministers something you need to address?

COMMIE/MOMMIE

.....Lilly ...

.....Here's a few slogans I remember ...

....."Better Red than Dead"
....."No blood for oil"
....."Give peace a chance"
....."Make Love not War"
....."Flower Power"
.....Hey Hey LBJ how many babies did you kill today?"

.....The last one would have made more sense if it had been chanted in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic ...

....Hee Hee PP how many babies did you kill this week? .....COLOSSUS

Rogers is a town in....

...Arkansas. Tyson is Rogers and Rogers is Tyson.

When fivo tells you that Klinton and Hukster are both bought and paid for, believe it.



OnceA Marine
Sir, that's why I provided you with links to the data. Unlike your unsupported comments.

By the way... the FairTax IS a flat rate tax...just as Buzzkat implied.

"The fair tax is a stupid and moronic method of taxing everybody. It creates more problems than it solves." Again an unsupported comment. Please provide us with at least two or three "problems" with the FairTax.

Inquiring minds want to know.

onceamarine
Please read the book, bill, or go to fairtax.org.

You obviously haven't given the fact that you didn't articulate any kind of argument.

Why would ANYONE be a proponent of the federal gov't stealing your money every month. Flat tax or otherwise (although a flat tax is better than the current system).

The Fair Tax puts the power back into the hands of those who should have it. THE PEOPLE. Not the gov't.

one more thing...
I do see how looking back at the Jimmah Cahter campaign (emphasis on pain) could could give one pause in accepting another Baptist from the south... much less on from Hope, Arkansas. At least there is no known connection to Plains, Georgia...

signed,
Not Voting for Giuliani, Romney, McCain, OR the "Divine" Ron Paul...

Silly Lilly
BOTH major American political parties use sloganeering as a weapon, as anyone who is intellectually HONEST (unlike yourself) will readily admit. However, the Democrat Party, with its sycophant allies both in the mainstream media and in Hollywood, has written the book on lying slogans that pander to the mindless masses (such as yourself). No entity has learned better than the Democrat-Liberal Party the propaganda principles developed both by Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia in the last century. Save your imbecilic crap for the DU, moveonsoros.org and Daily Kos websites.

onceamarine
How is deciding WHEN you want to pay a tax unfair? The Flat Tax takes that decision OUT of the consumers hands. I could choose when I want to pay under HR25 by buying used cars, houses,clothes ect. which are NOT taxed.

buzzkat
Some good articles have been recently published, last week, and delineate the clear differences.

First off, the flat tax is on consumption, not earnings. Secondly care to put your 23% or more against the 10 to 12%.

I am no expert. but the differences for the economy are astounding.

Let's just say the flat tax was on earnings and the fair tax was on spending. If you are an average American you earn less than $50,000.00 a year. Right.??. Now how much of your income is not for consumption.??. 5%, 10%. Now apply your figures and go figure who is getting screwed. It's not the rich, no it's most of us.

If you are in the $250,000.00 dollar range and not heavy on consumption you make out like a bandit. $250,000 to high, OK, 150,000 or 100,000.

Believe you me the majority of us are consumers, and it drives the economy. I would like to see more saving, but the economy would like to see more consumption. Besides, people have to eat, sleep in a good bed with air conditioning, drive a good or new car and take a vacation to show off their new clothes.

Consumption, Incorporated, drives the U.S. economy.


So what
If you make 250,000 a yr. and are frugal- more power to you.

And as to the point that consumption drives the economy- touche! And it always will. There will never be enough people who don't buy new items to drive down the economy.

To you fair tax advocates....

....see my previous post. See how much of your income you can save after consuming. You make out like a bandit with the flat tax if you are a normal person(s), a couple. Don't tell me you aren't going to consume. Buy all the used cars you want. You are not going to save fifty (50%) percent of your income. Besides, if you run by used cars, two things will happen. There won't be any and they will cost plenty. After that Detroit will shut down as well as Tennessee and any other manufacturers.

Now go figure. The 23% bandied around by the proponents is likely 27 to 28% of your "fair" tax, not the 23% they are promising. I am basing this on an extremely interesting article published last week where the entire two proposals were discussed thoroughly. Sorry, I keep things in my head, not on the computer for argument points.

Just go slow on this fair tax thing and take a hard look at the alternative. Do your homework and don't let emotion run your life. I would much rather pay, even up front, a fair, flat tax than to get caught later by an unfair, fair tax.


onceamarine
Frankly, I do not understand your argument at all. You state that the "flat tax" is a tax on consumption, not earnings (income), then go on to give a detailed and disjointed example of taxing income.

To repeat, the Fair Tax IS a flat tax. What part of the word "flat" don't you understand? Furthermore, the proposed 23% flat Fair Tax rate is revenue-NEUTRAL as far as current government income-tax receipts are concerned. Consumption is already taxed at the state and local level, as well as various federal excise taxes and other fees, so your argument about inhibiting consumption is a non-starter. As is well known, tax something and you get less of it. Given this fact, is it better to tax income or consumption? I would say it is far better to tax consumption, as EVERYONE - rich and poor - will therefore pay their fair shake, unlike today when nearly half of income earners (the lower half) are off the tax rolls, and the super rich are able to take advantage of the nearly infinite amount of loopholes in the tax code. Stop taxing income, people will have more incentive to earn MORE income, and they will spend anyway! It's a win-win situation with the additional benefit that power will be taken away from the politicians.

It is obvious that you have very little understanding of the Fair Tax and what it really is.

maschrom

You made/make my point. The "fair" tax is a screw job because consumption drives the economy. Just because a few, very few, can live with half or less of their earnings doesn't make it OK to screw all the rest. People have to live and they will spend most of their income with only a few exceptions.

Now go buy that used Sony TV from your neighbor, if he will sell it to you.


Bravo!
Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly with Star Parker's article. Mike Huckabee combines the best of both the Republican and Democratic Parties. He is a morality matters, balanced budgets matter, government should help the poor not hurt the poor, really taking care of the environment is hard work and should be done, the government taxing us all into oblivion is not good, i.e. Mike Huckabee is GOOD GOVERNMENT. Good government for Democrats, Independents, and Republicans. I LIKE MIKE!

Regarding taxes ... on Huckabee's website it says "As Governor of Arkansas, I pushed through the Arkansas Legislature the first major, broad-based tax cuts in state history - a $90 million tax relief package for Arkansas families. I also doubled the standard deduction to $2,000 for single taxpayers and $4,000 for those who are married. Some taxes I eliminated entirely: the marriage penalty, bracket creep caused by inflation, income tax on poor families, and capital gains on home sales. To encourage investment, I cut capital gains for both individuals and businesses. To help people better themselves, I provided tax credits for employee training and education. In total, I cut taxes and fees nearly 100 times during my ten-and-a-half years as Governor, saving the people of Arkansas almost $380 million.

When I left office in early 2007, Arkansas had nearly $850 million in state surplus, which I urged should go back to the people in the form of either a tax rebate or tax cut."

After just going through another huge tax increase in Maryland, Democratic Governor O'Malley even called a special session to do it, I really LIKE MIKE!

OnceA Marine
Onceamarine says - "Let's just say the flat tax was on earnings and the fair tax was on spending. If you are an average American you earn less than $50,000.00 a year. Right.??. Now how much of your income is not for consumption.??. 5%, 10%. Now apply your figures and go figure who is getting screwed. It's not the rich, no it's most of us."

The FairTax provides a 'pre-bate' function that returns all of the taxes paid up to the poverty level to ALL taxpayers. If you are earning $50,000/yr and live in an area where $20k is the poverty level, you would be receiving a prebate check for approx. $380/mo. When you factor that you won't pay any FairTax on 40% of your income, your net effective rate suddenly drops from 23% down to around 12.6% since you are taxed on $30k of spending had actually have $54,600 ($50k in earnings and $4.6k in prebate)

Besides, if you were in the 28% tax bracket, FICA removes 7.65% off the top for a total withholding of over 35%. $50,000 - 35% leaves you with $32,500 in net spendable income. And you whined up living a $32.5k life.

With the Fair Tax, you suddenly get to take home the entire $50k plus get the $4.6k prebate.

To go from $32,500 net income to $54,600 would be an effective 68% increase in your net spendable income.

Throw me into that briar patch, Marine. I'll take that tax system all day.

onceamarine
My point to you is there will ALWAYS be people who want and will buy the new cars, homes, ect. Most of the public INSIST on new. Those folks are not going to dissapear because of the Fair Tax. As for the rest of the population, of which I'm one, we should have the right of choice. If it's important enough, then pony up and pay the tax.

As far as making out better under the Flat Tax, of course if someone is a veroius consumer they may very well do better. But for me, I want the choice. Flat Tax takes the choice OUT of paying the tax.

Joe
You explained a lot more succinctly than I could have thanks.

Give me all of the money I earn, and watch me go.

What Once a Marine, also is not taking into account is that, we as consumers, are also paying imbedded taxes in everything we buy. Corporations don't pay taxes.....WE DO! It's their cost of doing business. Take it out of the equation and it's nearly a break even situation.

OK buzzkat, I accept.......

........that I was wrong indicating that the flat tax was on consumption. Wish I had the article to point you to it.

In any case, tell me that consumption is unaffected by a consumption tax, and that you pay less even though we know consumption will be high for almost all families.

You can chop wood for your wood burning furnace too, but who and how many are going to do that. There would be very little used sales if the general public bought used articles of consumption.

The simple matter is you are "probably" just as wrong as I "possibly" am wrong about the workings of the two proposals. My only caveat is, look before you leap. It may be a deeper canyon than you think.

Both proposals limit extremely the present system which is onerous and unfair to the extreme. Do not believe so easily that the pols who work for the very rich are going to hand you something which is other than a pig in a poke.


You go Joe!
The numbers needed to be explained. People always forget what the government takes up front. And might I say these same folks
"conveniently" forget to mention the prebate up to the poverty level.


maschrom
Again you make my point.

""Most of the public INSISTS on new. Those folks are not going to disapear because of the Fair Tax.""

No tax which is unfair to the majority should ever see the light of day. I am totally sympathetic to your "request". It simply won't happen that way.

When you face the law of diminishing returns, you are face to face with realty. No bullet and no voting machine can stand up to that law.

Let's be realistic. Pay a truly fair (flat)(10 to 12%) tax up front, "everybody", and do as you wish with your money. The fair tax is unfair and only sought by a small number of individuals. Even for the majority of those, the results would be unappealing after you tried it on for size.


Evangelicals Beware
I am a bible believing, born again, funamentalist, evangelical christian. Huckabee has some very good policies as Star Parker noted. What she didn't note was his VERY BAD policies.

Huckabee is an environmental extremist. He is also a tax and spend liberal. He increased taxes by 47% while governor. This is the worst possible combination.

Huckabee believes in the man made global warming scam. He will carbon tax us to death for no good reason. Utilities x2 or x3. Gas to $7-$10 / gal gas. Inflationup 20-30% due to transpotation and energy price increases. No new drilling for oil or refineries.

Huckabee favors amnesty for illegals. Huckabee is a train wreck. Evangelicals should support Fred Thompson. Thompson covers all the bases.

And think about it......

If you buy a home, used home like most, you will pay a 23% or more tax up front on that purchase. Charge that to your credit card. OK, so it goes in to the mortgage, you still got to pay it, with interest. Same with a car, new or used or for that matter your groceries, your medicine and your toothpaste.

Oh, I see you want to do a deal with your neighbor. Maybe with his TV, but not with the car you don't. Every time you have to retitle anything, you have to come up with a reasonable figure you paid, and believe you me they know reasonable.

Now go figure. Who is going to be the receptor of all the sales taxes collected.??. Your states.??. Where is the very large bureaucracy to do that.??.

This is KISS time folks, Keep it Simple Stupid, pay a flat tax and walk home free.

Do a tax that is good for the "vast majority" and it will be good for you. Do a bad tax and it will haunt you forever.


Flat Tax is unfair to the poor
If we had a Flat Tax there would still have to exist something akin to the prebate. Under HR25 the " truly poor " are completely taken care of in regards to their exemption to the tax.

As far as the majority of the public being taxed unfairly under the fair tax, I can't agree. When something is YOUR CHOICE ( to purchase new ) then how is it not fair? I'm certain that people are smart enough to figure out how to spend their own money and set priorities in accordance to what is important to THEM and their lifestyle.

And when you consider that income earners between $130,000 & $300,000 pay 90% of the taxes in this country how can we talk fair? I honestly believe that the heaviest consumers should pay more. That's just MHO.

There is
no tax on used homes.

Caveats of the "Fair Tax"
While I am a supporter of the fair tax, there are certain caveats to its implementation. One such problem is that the tax is tied to the economy. What happens during a recession. I would argue that this would be the point where Congress would be tempted to increase the percentage.

Another problem is the tax on new housing. That would put a large burden on the middle class. New housing would probably decline because of the vast tax that would have to be paid at closing.

One other problem is the burden it would put on small businesses. All businesses would have to collect the tax. Some small businesses are already barely afloat. This would put an added cost to doing business. The question is would every sector of the economy be able to deal with collecting the tax.

Overall though, I think that the Fair Tax would increase investment. And, that would be helpful to business. It is always a little more complicated than it appears on the surface.

Onceamarine, mashom did not make
your point and neither have you. You are seriously confused about the "fair tax" vs the "flat-tax". The first thing wrong with the flat tax, is that is is still run by the IRS. The second problem with it is it is still subject to loopholes, deductions for this special group or that. Thirdly, there is nothing to stop the government from "tweaking" the flat tax to add additional rates, just like they did after Reagan reduced the tax code to just 3 rates. Fourthly, as has been stated, the government still takes your money from you up front and if you are good and file the proper paperwork, they might give some back if they took too much.

You have so many misconceptions of what the Fair tax is and how it would work, please read the book, then you can argue from an informed and intelligent basis. Your one-sided screed is not convincing anyone. If you don't like the fair tax after having read the book, fine. Then you can argue against what the fair tax actually proposes, not what someone told you it is.

Fair Tax and recession
There would be no difference post HR25 than there is right now during a recession. If people have less money then they spend less money ( or should anyway ).

I own a construction company and deal mainly with new construction and believe me the builders pass on their cost of doing business ( building a house ) to their customers.

There are issues with the fair tax ( for instance people with roth 401ks as they would already have paid taxes on that money ) but most lie in the realm of making sure the imbedded taxes are removed from the purchase price of an item. However competition for the consumers business will all but guarantee that some business owner somewhere will remove it to send consumers their way and this will subsequently *inspire* others to follow. Kinda like gas price wars.

There will be no more burden
on business owners than there is collecting state taxes. And frankly the REAL headache to business owners is the IRS.

The Fair Tax
I haven't read all the posts yet so there may be one with the questions I have. Please forgive me if there are.

The biggest problem foresee with the Fair Tax and it being focused only on NEW items, is the lure to buy used to avoid the tax. The Democrats tried this by applying a luxury tax to the purchase of new yachts a few years back. The result? A precipitous decline in the demand for new yachts because the wealthy decided to buy used yachts to avoid the high luxury tax. As always with meddling politicians, the unitended consequences were the loss of high paying jobs for the average joe who worked building the new yachts.

With the above scenario used as a real world outcome of high taxes on new products, the demand for used cars will increase with a commensurate decline in demand for new cars. So, then you'll have thousands of auto workers out of work. Come to think of it, that might not be such a bad idea because there will be less influence of government by liberal unions.

Okay, bring on the Fair Tax!

maschrom

Wrong. There is a "fair tax" on anything you buy if they know about it. Period. None of that but "it's used" stuff.

Investigate a little more hon, don't get sucked into the first handsome guy that comes along.

There is more you don't know about the so called fair tax than what you do know.

Big Brother "Conservative"
How much snooping would be needed to enforce the "Fair Tax" every time somebody buys a pair of socks, a newspaper, or a pack of cigarettes?

(Oops -- that last is bad example. In Huckabee's
Big Brother world, you'd have to buy cigs from a drug dealer in a back alley.)

Arkansas has a marriage ammendment
In 2002, before the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court declared same-sex marriage protected by the Constitution, Romney denounced as "too extreme" the effort by pro-family groups to enact a preemptive state Marriage Protection Amendment prohibiting homosexual marriage, civil unions and same-sex public employee benefits.
- Boston Phoenix, May 14-20, 2004

Now, Person A and Person B get married in Massachusetts, over voters' clear objection.

Arkansas' marriage amm. was passed in 2002.


Yes, under a consumer tax, the fair tax,

......all will pay up front, and then the government will send a "rebate, later rather than sooner", to the poor. Under a flat tax, they will never pay the tax or only a small portion of it. Every body else gets the same treatment. If you are making good money and are a good shopper/saver, you make out like a bandit with the flat tax. It's only estimated at 10%, but I say 10 to 12%. That's far less than most pay today and no loopholes except for poverty.

Used homes, used cars, used anything they can find out or know about, pay under the fair tax arrangement. And if you have to title it, they know about it.

Arkansas has a marriage amendment
In 2002, before the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court declared same-sex marriage protected by the Constitution, Romney denounced as "too extreme" the effort by pro-family groups to enact a preemptive state Marriage Protection Amendment prohibiting homosexual marriage, civil unions and same-sex public employee benefits.
- Boston Phoenix, May 14-20, 2004

Person A and Person B are getting married in Massachusetts.

Arkansas passed a marriage amendment in 2002.

Please forgive the added m in amendment.

Frog
I tend to think that those who buy used/new now will continue to spend, for the most part, the same way.

Now about those wealthy enough to buy yachts, I have never actually met a truly rich person ( and I've met quite a few ) who were not EXTREMELY frugal ( you can insert cheap here if you want ). These are people I have done business with and they don't hesitate to nickle and dime a person to death. So, I can absolutely see them buying used yachts. Which means.... there will be a LOT of used yachts that will need fixing up, remodling ect. Therefore there will always be work for people who work yachts.

Here's an idea.....
Everyone here seems to be enamored with paying taxes. Myself, I'd rather go with Ron Paul's 0% flat tax, and try CUTTING SPENDING for a change. As far as I know, limited government used to be a conservative ideal.

We are way overextended in the spending department, financing foreign countries and wars while we hypocritically leave our own borders untended. Meanwhile our dollar is becoming more worthless by the day to foreigners, and will wreak havoc for the middle and lower classes. Anybody see the irony of this?

Ron Paul is the only candidate running who gets the connection between our crashing dollar, our overseas adventurism, and our immigrant problem. We will be all the poorer if we do not elect this man as our next president. Listen to him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaxdUPNYj2s

Iowa voters had better get informed
Illegal immigration is the #1 issue for Iowa Republicans, and Huckabee is on the opposite side of the #1 issue from Iowa Republicans.

It's time to get them informed on the truth about Huckabee and illegal immigration.

He's not just an open-borders guy, he's a belligerent defamatory open-borders guy.


He earned a spot on my "defamation page" (www.flushthesenate.org) many months ago on account of his bad faith dealings on this issue.


The guy's a fraud and he needs to be exposed.

onceamarine
If used goods were taxed under the Fair Tax I would be 100% against it, as that would constitute paying 23% every time an item is sold for as long as it has monetary value. All I can say is that from my three yrs. of looking at the pros and cons, reading the book and going on the website, that is incorrect. It seems like you naturally assume you are being lied to. Why would you think the 23% would apply to all goods new AND used?

Government and prebate
If government can manage to mail out all the checks they currently are, my guess is that they could handle a prebate. On time.

That would be people who work *on* yachts.

Dick Army's flat tax
It must be a couple of decades now since Dick Army proposed the Flat Tax. It goes something like this: Take your total income, subtract the standard deduction for your family size (it was proposed to be about $31K for a family of four), multiply that amount by 17% and write a check to the US Gov for that amount. Done! No deductions for anything! Zero manipulation by the Gubment to do X or Y with your money via tax incentives.

Sounds nice and easy to me. Where's the problem with such a plan?

bot_feeder
My thoughts exactly! If immigration is the main issue in Iowa, what in the devil are they doing supporting Mike Huckabee? Are they simply ignorant on his positions? Someone better tell them pronto- BEFORE their primary. : o

once a marine
What Fair Tax are you talking about. The Fair Tax applies ONLY to new goods and services. Existing homes are not subject to it. Used cars are not subject to it. The old lawnmower that I would sell my neighbor is not subject to it.

Read the book, read the bill or log onto fairtax.org and educate yourself. The information that you have been given is just flat out wrong.

Someone asked about consumption. The economists and business leaders that devised the Fair Tax studied this. Historically, consumption has never gone down since it has been tracked. 70 or 80 years I think. I will try to track down the exact source.


Fair Tax vs. Flat Tax
It is my understanding that the group of economist that came up with HR25 put ALL solutions to the IRS on the table including the Flat Tax. They came to the conclusion that a consumption tax ( along with the elimination of the IRS ) as opposed to an income tax was the very best solution. These economist had no bias for or against one idea over the other. They simply saw HR25 as the better choice.

What I'm hearing doesn't match......

with what I read. Ok. Lets suppose you are right. Only new products get taxed.

Now the reference to Yachts becomes a good reference. You will see new sales of expensive items plummet, given the new tax. Sure, people will still buy electronics, but not as soon. Now, are groceries and other necessities taxed. ??. They are new until you swallow them.

I suspect that at the very least you are dreaming, and at worst they would change the rules 12 months later.


maschrom
In fact, Leo Linbeck and the others that financed the research that led to the idea of the Fair Tax fully expected the economists to come back with a "flat tax" assuming that it was the best alternative.

I see a consumption tax under this......

...or a similar congress to be about the same as the death march at Bataan. The attrition would be very high and they would have no option other than to raise the bar. The 23% would soon be 28% and the people laid off work would make it go to 35%.

Who is kidding who.??.

If you believe in the "fair tax" you probably would vote for anyone of the liars running for president.

Let's see. That would be headed by Huckleberry at the top of the list.

Duncan Hunter 2008 and a flat tax..


That's right elong- no bias
onceamarine read my post at 1:03 where I adress the yacht issue. And where did you *read* about HR25? Sounds like you were reading some serious misinformation.

onceamarine
Ahh....Duncan Hunter is a co-sponsor of HR 23. The Fair Tax. It's good enough for him.

onceamarine
With all due respect, you are living in a fairy tale world with the flat tax on income idea. Essentially what you are proposing is NOT an end to the IRS but an end to the current progressive system of federal income tax, where the more one earns, the higher the tax RATE he pays. Do you really think the dem/libs will let you get away with this one? Even now, despite the FACT that the Bush tax rate cuts made the federal income tax system even more progressive (more income earners at the bottom of the spectrum have been takne off the tax rolls, and the upper echelon of income earners now pay an even higher percentage of the taxes taken in by the feds), the dem/libs continue their lying mantra of "tax cuts for the rich". Sure, I'd LOVE a flat tax where welfare queens pay their FAIR SHARE, but the socialist lobby of society's parasites is immovably entrenched in our political system, i.e. they have a death grip on the Democrat Party (and literally a death grip on the country).

I will repeat, from an empirical standpoint, the only thing that makes sense is a tax on consumption, not on income. This is the ultimate "flat" tax and the ultimate "fair" tax.

Well, now
It seems we agree on a presidental candidate at least ; )

Duncan Hunter '08 and a fair tax

Something of value
Being from Texas, I have read much about the Huckster and I agree with Fivo 100%.
Speaking of taxes, the calculations attributed to the burden of illegal immigration are astronomical. i.e. school, social services, medical, food stamps, and on and on as everyone has read about. Especially in the cities that are trying inact laws for the crackdown on illegals or enforcing the laws already on the books. Yet the illegals send billions back to their respective countries instead of paying fed. income taxes as I have read.. Correct me if I am wrong.

Go buzzkat!







That's all.

onceamarine
"You will see new sales of expensive items plummet, given the new tax. Sure, people will still buy electronics, but not as soon."


The fallacy here is your assumption that people's disposable income remains the same. But it doesn't. ALL payroll taxes disappear: income, Social Security (don't forget about the "employer 'contribution'"), Medicare. The F.I.C.A. taxes themselves represent more than 15% of income which is $90,000 (or so) annually. F.I.C.A. is the ultimate regressive tax. Don't worry, the last thing Americans will do is to stop consuming! :)

Amazing that Huckabee is running


When Huckabee thwarted the Republicans in Arkansas trying to put together anti-illegal immigration legislation, I had thought that Huckabee's political career was dead in the water.

It's amazing how far someone with the skeletons in the closet that Huckabee can go on a smile and a shoeshine.

The word needs to get out on what Huckabee really is about.


It's not that he's going to win. But if he takes away Romney's momentum in Iowa, then Huckabee could wind up steering the election to Giuliani.

Who knows, we might have a Rudy/Huck ticket. I can't imagine a more horrible ticket besides perhaps Ted Kennedy and Dick Durbin.

maschrom
I understand Fred Thompson is starting to tell Iowans the real story about Huckabee and illegal immigration.

By the time of the caucuses, I think Iowans will know the real Huckabee.

What is amazing is that Huckabee got this far before his past started catching up with him.

Oh the horrors
Rudy/Huck Ted/Dick : O

If Iowans big issue is immigration why isn't Hunter doing better? He's been all over this issue for 6 yrs.

FairTax vs Mtg Interest Deduction Prt 1
An existing home sells for $250,000 with the buyer paying 20% down and financing the $200,000 balance at a fixed 6% interest rate over 30 years. The monthly principal and interest payment is approximately $1,200. Under current tax law, the owner is able to deduct the interest portion of that payment from his/her taxable income, reducing the amount of actual tax owed. At the end of the first year of a 30 year amortization schedule, the mortgage balance would have been reduced by $2,456. The total of payments that first year is $14,400, so with $2,456 being principal reduction, the remaining $11,944 would be the deductible interest.

Assuming this homeowner is in the 28% tax bracket, this deductible interest provides the owner with $3,344 in direct tax offset. You either pay the tax with those funds or you can make your house payment with it. On a monthly basis, that’s approximately $280 pre-tax earnings that can be applied toward that $1,200 payment, leaving $920 that must be paid using after-tax dollars.

The IRS takes 28% from the homeowner’s gross earnings and FICA deducts an additional 7.65%, removing 35.65% before this taxpayer ever gets to see her paycheck. Therefore the $920 portion represents 64.35% of the total amount of earnings needed to make the balance of the monthly payment. In order to spend $920, the homeowner must first earn $1,430. Add back the $280 deductible interest portion and the total amount of earnings needed to make a $1200 payment is $1,710.

So what is the MID worth? Without that mortgage deduction, the entire $1,200 payment would have to be made using after-tax dollar and the total amount of pre-tax earnings needed would be $1,865. This means that the mortgage interest deduction provides a net benefit of approximately ($1865-$1710) $155 each month.


INCOME AND WITHOLDING TAX

.....Are not going away short of an armed revolution ...

.....Almost any tax would be better than a progressive income tax but the Socialists in Washington tricked the mindless masses into passing the 16TH Amendment against the wishes of the Founders and once they got the camels nose under the tent the screwing began ...so bend over folks ...it is just going to get worse when the Socialists get back in power .....COLOSSUS

FairTax vs Mtg Interest Deduction Prt 2
So what if the FairTax becomes law and replaces the existing tax code? How would that impact the cost of homeownership?

The FairTax is only applicable to retail sales of new untaxed items. As the above scenario describes the purchase of an EXISTING home, this sale would not be subject to the FairTax and the owner could simply make the entire mortgage payment using gross earnings. With no payroll or income taxes withheld, the owner would spend untaxed earnings which would require making only the $1200 each month needed to cover the payment. Compared to the MID scenario above, the FairTax represents a $510/month savings over the cost under the current tax code.

Again, since the FairTax is only applicable to the final retail sale to the end user, had the above transaction been for a NEW home, here’s how the inclusion of The FairTax would impact that same homeowner.

The FairTax abolishes all income taxes for both individuals and for businesses. In addition the FairTax doesn’t apply to “B to B” transactions. In other words, “business to business” sales that would includes all of the costs associated with the construction of that new home are not subject to the national sales tax imposed by the FairTax.

Think about all the various construction costs that went into building that new home. Now consider the various amounts of income taxes that were paid by the land developer, the builder and the general & sub-contractors that constructed the dwelling. Also consider all of the various material suppliers that provided the components for the construction of that new home. This includes such items as lumber, wiring, pipes, fixtures, appliances, carpet, shingles, etc, in that new home as well as all of the labor costs associated with its creation. Each of those businesses (hopefully) made a profit on their contributions to the new home’s construction.

FairTax vs Mtg Interest Deduction Prt 3
Each of them paid taxes on the profits generated by the sale of those materials and the profits from the labor that was provided to the builder and the developer. All of these taxes contribute to the ‘embedded cost’ that is ultimately passed on to the home buyer via a higher sales price. This is true not just for new housing, but for virtually any new product or service produced in the U.S. With the FairTax, all these costs are eliminated.

It’s been estimated that these “embedded taxes” contributes between 20-25% to the total cost of virtually all new products, including the cost of a new home. The actual cost to build a new home would be commensurately less if all those tax components were removed. This includes not only the actual income taxes paid by those profiting by its construction, but it also includes tax related costs of documentation, accounting & compliance that normally are incurred by builders, developers and the suppliers of materials that go into the construction of a new home. Once these embedded costs are removed, the competitive market would reduce the retail price of that home by the amount of cost savings.

For this discussion, if we have assumed a 22% reduction from elimination of these embedded taxes in this $250,000 home, the actual intrinsic cost to build it and sell it at the same (after current tax) profit margin would be around $195,000. Applying the 23% FairTax to that $195,000 sales price would bring the total cost of that home to $253,247. This is approximately the same price that was paid by the buyer in the above scenario under current tax law.

The FairTax was designed to be revenue neutral, raising the same amount of taxes for the government as did the old system. As indicated in the example above, the final sales price of that new home subject to The FairTax would approximate the sales price that of the same house under the previous tax code.


FairTax vs Mtg Interest Deduction Prt 4
Using that same 20% down and 80% financed as discussed above, the homeowner would still only need to have earnings of approximately $1200 each month to cover the payment. But the actual cost of that payment reflects a savings of over $500 each month compared to the amount of earnings needed to support the cost of buying a $250,000 new home under the current tax law, even after considering the alleged “benefit” of the Mortgage Interest Deduction.

The $500/mo savings added to the couple hundred bucks of prebate, if invested over the long haul at say 6% interest, could provide that homeowner with an additional $800,000 in potential asset value over by the time that 30 mortgage is paid off.

The economy does not operate ...
in a vacuum (though it does suck sometimes, couldn't resist). There is a lot of assuming going on when one thinks that we can completely change the manner in which we as a nation collect taxes and think that people's spending habits won't change. You're crazy if you believe that. Just because there is a certain amount of consumption right now that says a 23% consumption tax would be revenue neutral does not mean that the rate won't have to change once all the data is in and consumers spending habits have changed as well.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I have been a long-time tax protester and believe that things must change. I'm just not convinced yet that the Fair Tax is the way to go. Although, I am leaning toward a consumption tax over an income tax. I just think there are things that many people are overlooking that we need to do our best to foresee and have contingencies in case things don't work out.

Fair Tax and revenue
I think there is evidence that the Fair Tax could generate MORE revenue by tapping into the underground economy, ( and yes, it does exist )AND bringing bussinesses back that flew the coop due to the IRS.

Huckabee is a nice guy, BUT...
Star, you are partly right but no cigar. Huckabee is not a conservative on immigration and on fiscal matters he was more liberal than the populace of Arkansas.

Both Mitt and Rudy are MORE conservative than the populace of MA and NYC.

So... Will the true conservative please stand up?

I would vote for Huckabee if he gets the nomination, but I MUCH PREFER Romney. He is miles ahead of Huckabee as a manager.

Romney on ENDA
"He did, however, pledge to support the federal Employment Non-Discrimination Act, which would ban job discrimination based on sexual orientation, and other civil rights protections for gays in the areas of housing and credit. He also promised to bring the initiatives begun in Massachusetts to protect gay and lesbian youth to the federal level."
- Bay Windows, 3/28/2002

You will get litigious persecution of traditional gatherings if you nominate Romney.



Flat Tax
Those that support the flat tax are engaged in what can be called mental masturbation.

It will never ever become law. No country on earth will has ever moved to a consumption tax only system to fund its operations. And the US won't be the exception to this.

The "fair tax" is also unfair. Even with the prebate, those in the upper incomes will be paying a smaller rate as a percentage of their income than those in the middle and lower classes.

Have I read the plan or have I read Linder and Boortz's idiotic book? No. If I want to read fantasy, I'll read something less boring.


Akagi
So what you're saying is that you don't know what you're talking about. Well done. Good post.

When are people going to figure out that the way to tax the "evil rich" is to tax wealth. Keep taxing income. Yeah, real good.

the Huckster and taxes...
I personally see the Fair Tax as a slight improvement to the status quo, but far from the best proposal out there. And if the Huckster is supporting the Fair Tax, that could be real bad... because this guy never knew a tax increase he didn't support.

With a President Huckster, I imagine that if we ever scrapped the income tax for the Fair Tax, judging from history, Huck would just re-institute the income tax *along with* a national sales tax within a year. Then We the Taxpayers would be doubly hosed.

I'm with pianogirl. I like Ron Paul's 0% flat tax and revert back to the feds making all their revenue through tariffs and excise taxes.

Now I'll brace myself for all the so-called "conservative" posters to come out and tell me how antiquated that idea is...

Before people put the "big-government"
"tax-raiser" label on Mike Huckabee they should realize he was a Republican governor with a majority Democrat state representatives who refused his ideas for cutting spending. This is a common problem for all our Southern Republican governors.

dna...there you go again..ronald reagan
you seem to relish distorting many things about romney..yes he feels gays even tho he opposes their lifestyle..should have a right to get a job
and should be given protection against job bigotry! and i have to hurry or i would expose you as a deceiver! romney has answered all these questions...and boston liberal heaven doesnt like
romney and is almost always putting out 1/2 stories on the man. ask him your self! http://www.mittromney.com or your mind is so closed you would be wasting your time! and to compare arkansas to mass. is the height of ignorance!! 2 different worlds or you didnt know that..i rest my case !!! elvis!

No
No, elong:

What I am saying is it will never ever ever become law--ever.

So you and you Fair Tax" cultists can jump up and down and howl at the moon about it all you want, but it will never happen.

And yes elong under the Fair Tax, the amount of tax as a percentage of income will be higher on the middle class than the rich--not exactly fair now is it?


Akagi
Wow. Mental masturbation, huh? I guess we know where your heads at today huh? ; O

I am examining Romney's past
and present, and bringing it to light. He made the statement on Laura Ingraham's show this very morning that he has always opposed homosexual civil unions, and homosexual marriage. Patently false. Breathtaking revisionism.

Well, lookit, on marriage I think it is absolutely pertinent to compare Massachusetts and Arkansas, since the voters roundly rejected the deconstruction of marriage in both states.


Akagi
Define middle class and rich.

And you may be right. I may NEVER become law. Most likely because most sheep out there think that we are powerless against the gov't.

The Fair Tax would be the largest power shift back to the people of this country. You keep what you earn. And I am sick of this percentage of income. "Rich" people spend more therefore they will pay more in taxes. What their official income is will be immaterial. What's more "middle class" folks won't be taxed for actually SAVING money and investing. Hey, guess what....they may even stand a better chance of getting "rich."

And you know what?
It may never become law Akagi ( and we KNOW how much you LOVE the law ) but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

Perhaps you should spend some *special* time alone? Could help your disposition, no? Maybe you'd be a little less combative anyway. One can hope.

Fair Tax
I call it mental masturbation because that is exactly what it is. Rather me call it a parlor game instead?

And the term was not coined by me but describes an unproductive mental activity which the Fair Tax certainly qualifies.


Akagi
Right...........not your idea at all. ; )

Akagi & the US congress

You see, Akagi is telling the masterbaters like it is, and you jump on his case. No matter how you dice it, flat or so called fair, it will be a cold day in h&ll before this or any congress passes a different kind of income tax. They can't agree on anything except more spending, more pork, and when to cut for lunch and vacations.

We all want a change, preferably a consumption tax. The flat tax on consumption I discussed with my close friends 30 years ago in Houston will never, ever, come to pass in this lifetime.

Sayonara conversation, and now back to the Huckster.

On that one we may agree, a low brow, lying and bought out politician, with schooling in the fine art of preaching and telling you the fibs you want to hear. Complain about what Mormons believe as doctrine and then go believe a liar like Huckleberry. Shish....


Translation
maschrom:

Care to translate this for me?

Right...........not your idea at all. ; )



onceamarine
Welcome back.

Although I normally hold a pessimistic outlook on politicts in general, at this point I feel the need to go for what I think is best. That includes everything and everyone who has ideas I feel would work. Sometimes it becomes a self fulfulling prophecy to state that " it can't be done ". Often I think that's where the establishment has got us by the balls. " Just make them think it's impossible " becomes their mantra. I'm too old for that crap anymore. I'm tired of being told it "can't be done".

OnceaMarine
Oh and Onceamarine, we'll have more fun tomorrow as I have some signal intercepts that inform me that one of the high priests in the Fair Tax cult (aka Neal Boortz) will be posting a response to "Hank Adler's Fairtax attack" that was posted at some point over the holidays on TH.

Where should I start...oh, no Congress will ever pass the "Fair Tax" and no president would ever sign it. No Congress will ever approve a constitutional amendment to repeal the 16th Amendment, and you'll never get 38 state houses to ratify it if it ever did make it out of Congress.

Is that dead enough for you? Now you might get the Congress to pass a VAT, but you'll never get what H.R. 25 calls for.




Akagi
I'm suggesting that the word masturbation is and was YOUR take on the situation ( for reason that will remain unspoken ). : )

Come on Akagi, don't prove my point that you have NO sense of humor. Laugh a little! It does a body good.

THIS congress might not
ever sign HR25 into law, but what does that prove other than that they are a bunch of usless idiots!

Huckabee was "pro Shamnesty" soooo

that about did it for me. He's off MY Christmas card list.




It can't be done
maschrom:

Lots of things can't be done and the Fair Tax is one of them. I am not overly concerned if its a good idea or not since debating such is yes mental masturbation. Makes about as much sense as debating if the Americans had not known the Japanese plans at Midway and if instead all the US carriers had been sunk and Japan had taken Hawai'i, what would the outcome of the war have been or if Bragg wasn't such an idiot and had pushed Rosecrans after Chickamauga and had taken Chattanooga and pushed into central Tennessee toward Nashville, what would the impact have been on the war in the west? Would Atlanta have fallen before the election of 1864 and if not, would Lincoln have lost to McClellan?

These questions are about as germane to real life as arguements for or against the Fairtax are. It makes for a nice parlor game or fodder for a debating society, but no impact on real life--no matter how much the cultists claim otherwise.


maschrom

I hear you and I have fought those no win battles more than you know. We are talking about sacred cows you out to know.

You try to tell a politician there is another way to milk a cow, his cow he thinks, and you got a royal battle on your hands. He thinks God with the help of his party got him those vote numbers to allow him or her to properly represent us and show him where to shovel our money from our cow.

Would term limits help. Yes, up to a point. I think that point should be about 18 years total ever service from congress. We can disagree on the numbers, but I will never agree on a no reelection law. That horse isn't just lame, it's dead on arrival. It is a total failure where ever no reelection has been tried so let's see what about 18 years gets us.

It's long enough for them to learn their job, and not long enough to make a life time commitment to it. We need the experience, especially in the senate. We just don't need life time assignments.

Let's face it folks. The congress is where this country is made or broken, not with some reprobate president.


I have no sense of humor
maschrom:

But as the term was coined, the phrase has this in common with real masturbation. The biological purpose of ejaculation is to produce offspring to further the species and while masturbation may produce pleasure, it serves no purpose beyond that just as in mental masturbation. While it may give the mental masturbater pleasure, it will produce no productive results, so in that vien, I used the phrase correctly.

So you and John Linder and Neal Boortz and a host of other deranged individuals that think this will ever have any shot at becoming reality--have fun.




onceamarine
I wish I knew enough about cut and paste ( I have children in their twenties who have tried to teach me ) but I have written extensively on term limits here and written to my local paper on the issue.

onceamarine
Term limits were ruled unconstitutional in US Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton (1995).

And maschrom:

Not only will THIS Congress not approve of H.R. 25, but no other Congress will approve of such, and no Congress is going to get 2/3 of both houses to repeal the 16th Amendment nor will you get 38 state houses to approve it.

No country on earth has a consumption tax only to fund the operations of the government. The only thing this silly cult is likely to produce is a VAT tax along side an income tax.




MY plan.......
is to create a four year congressional term ( limited to two ) and a three year house term ( limited to two ). At the conclusion of these terms the canadates must *dissapear* for the equivelant of two terms, after which time they can then run again. This gives up the incumbent advantage and provides a way to re-elect people who served the people the way they SHOULD have in the first place.

brerathtaking...indeed
is your insight to partial stories! several years ago one of his sons was thinking on becoming a democrat(you know the youth are so often swayed to the compassion side of our mentality) and his father a guy called mitt romney..told him reconsider if we go the route of the democrats..there will be homosexual marriages !!!!
which was a real no-no to mitt romney! that was
many years ago! sooo dna...really do your homework..and then it will not matter to you anyway...nor will it matter to the election! mitt doesnt need your vote. i know mitt romney much better than you do...believe it because its true! he's against gay marriage..onceamarine impresses me! he sees the value of romney, sharp on taxes, sees thru the huckabee balogna, etc!
the amendment in mass. also included discrimination against homosexuals for jobs! so yes he thought that was too extreme! when all the dust blows away..i think after all the false
1/2 truths about romney are straightened out! he will be the man who will lead us..and will not be
tramping around...like bubba bill clinton,rudy,and even john(once?), fred(?)elvis

Akagi
I don't CARE what retarded judges have ruled term limits unconstitutional. This is no difference than a presidental term limit. Same thought process!!!!

My plan--more fantasy
maschrom:

And you'll only be able to do that by a Constitutional amendment and since it is the people in Congress that introduce and pass constitutional amendments (all but one) and such an amendment would reduce their ability to stay in their jobs, what are the chances do you think of that passing? Would you vote for something at your work that would make you unemployed in 8 or 6 years?

I suppose you could get the SCOTUS to reverse Term Limits, Inc, but that is not very likely either.




Mike Huckabee
He has my vote. I've longed for a Social Conservative populist who opposes free trade, supports blue collar workers, supports the 2nd amendment, and believes that a balanced budget is better than small government in debt for a long time. I disagree with him on illegal immigration when it comes to illegal children, although his desire to deport illegal adults makes him pallatable to me.

As a Social Conservative, and part of the party-base, I ask you this: who else would you have me vote for? I vote on the basis of my principles, and the only thing I've been offered is a scumbag some have dignified with the name "Giuliani."

The next best candidates I can find are Hunter and Romney, yet Hunter comes off as a tad too much as a trigger-happy Neoconservative for my likings, while I oppose the government-mandated healthcare of Romney. Huck's plan to protect workers from the smoke of others at their workplaces is a fine idea, although it could use some tweaking for those places where smoking is the desired activity, and it's far better than being told how to spend one's own money on private companies.

The difference
maschrom:

The difference between the 22nd Amendment and limiting Congress is that Congress was all in favor of the 22nd which would increase their power (or so they thought). Every Senator and many house memebers see themselves as a possible president having a president serving 3, 4 and 5 or more terms make their rise to that office more difficult. If not for the 22nd, Bill Clinton could be running for his 5 term. When asked about repealing the 22nd, Senator Specter stated that 8 years was enough for anyone.

The Congress is all to happy to limit the power of the president (see War Powers Act for an example). They are much less willing to limit their own. If you think Congress would limit its own power, you are sadly mistaken. How many of the Contract with America house members elected in 1994 followed through and stepped down when they reached the years of service promised in the contract? Few in fact, correct?


like I said
The people who run congress are insane. At some point they'll die ( God willing ), and people who care about this country will be elected.

You know, you are an awful lot like my spouse used to say about me " doom and gloom ". And I'll admit, that is my basic take on life, but at some point you have to hope for the best and be a little more optimistic.

Free Trade
Yes, real smart Patriot to opposes free trade. Does the term Smoot-Hawley mean anything to you? Care to tell us the amount of the US GDP related to international trade? Which has been the largest sector for growth inside the US over recent years, domestic trade or international trade?

Think as governor of Arkansas he opposed free trade?

Do you think it wise to keep failing industries afloat in the US via protective tariffs? Why should an American consumer pay more money for a product just so it can keep a semi-skilled American worker employed over a equally skilled but cheaper Chinese or Malay worker? Economics is the dismal science--a dollar I have to spend on protecting a blue collar American worker in unproductive American-based factory in say Buffalo, is a dollar I can't spend, save or invest elsewhere--it doesn't make economic sense.

The "Buy American" thing is based on economic idioticy.

Elvis - Akagi
Thanks for the kind words Elvis. I only try to be right as and when possible.

Akagi, folks, is one of the sharpest dudes you are going to run into, that is when he isn't arguing about oriental immigration laws made before 1965. Like the rest of us, he has a sore point.

But as a general rule he is very knowledgeable and reasonable about his perceptions. I hate to go on about it, someone will think it's a valentine, but sincerely, he is IMO among the very brightest here on TH. Not always right, but he comes very close in my book. As the JF Hutton ads say, when he speaks, I listen. After that I judge him just like anyone else.

Semper Fi...


The old thieves will die
The ones elected in Newt's revolution didn't seem to follow through with their promises--e.g. term limits. Again, how many of that class stepped down after their promised time was up? Very few--not many can walk away from all that power.

And the US has term limits--they are called elections. Perhaps if the parties weren't allowed to carve out safe seats that protects sitting members of their own party, you'd have real elections.


Akagi
Idiocy, not your spelling. Use a program called Word Web which can be downloaded for free to check spelling. It has a lot more words than do the spell check programs in most programs, and it has the definitions and alternatives to a misspelling.


Akagi
Newet earned my disklike when he touted her " Health refrom "and stated that she would be a great POTUS". Are you kidding me? That disqualified him as anyone I would pay attention to. Period. End of story.

Term limits are not arcane.

onceamarine
Off subject, but someone should inform Roberto about Word Web.;-)

Okay, homosexuals can sue everyone
Okay, elvis, you told me what I want to know about your support of Romney.

Mr. Huckabee
has the odor of a big RINO. I recall that the previous presidential candidate from Arkansas also had a plan for reducing taxes, which he not only reneged on, but instead introduced the biggest Federal tax-increase to date. With Huckabee as the 2008 Republican presidential candidate, it's all too possible for Clinton, Obama, or even Edwards to get to the RIGHT of him on one or two issues. That's why Bob Dole never stood a chance in 1996. A largely social conservative candidate will get painted as a flag carrier for the Religious Right, cause small-government conservatives to stay home, and will never possess as great a set of Nanny-State credentials (regarding the national smoking ban) as any Democratic candidate. Based upon the contention and confusion about Huckabee's fair-tax proposal that I have seen just in this forum, I shudder to think what the general American electorate will do with it, especially after the MSM does its level best to muddy the waters even further. In other words: If ole' Huck is the '08 Republican candidate for president, I predict that the Democrats will steal his lunch money and leave half of the US crying on the street corner afterwards. Please don't vote like an idiot.

Great article!
Great article, Star. One of the reasons I like Huckabee most is that he doesn't fit in the standard GOP box. He comes from modest beginnings and understands the plight of middle-income families in America. Romney wouldn't have a clue.

Huckabee has always held conservative views on social issues facing America. Giuliani doesn't even come close.

Huckabee has over 10 years of executive experience as governor of Arkansas, and doesn't come with the arrogance or hubris of Beltway politicans. Can't say that about McCain or Thompson, both of which are neck-deep in PAC money.

Best of all, Huckabee can ARTICULATE his convictions and connect with voters and politicans on both sides of the aisle. "W" was rarely able to do this, Giuliani abrasiveness won't win many converts, and Thompson can't articulate what his wife Jeri tells him to say.

Go Mike!
RightSmart.blogspot.com

Robert Novak'
has an accurate article today about Huckabee. He is the Huckster. A phoney boloney, a liberal in most of his true viewpoints. He is a smooth liar.

I don't know where this Star Parker gets her information, but it's not from most of the people of Arkansas. She hasn't looked at his real record. She has just been listening to this smooth talker, who is funny, and a good actor that knows what people want to hear, and says it. But then he will do what he wants if he gets in office.

He will raise taxes, and fight for amnesty for illegal aliens,he will back a smoking ban, and he will ban trans fats, he will push the global warming agenda. He's a nut, a lying nut!!

nanna: Off topic but....

how is your great grandson?

The night before Thanksgiving Luberjack asked if I'd heard... which I hadn't.

Then, the day after Thanksgiving he posted that he'd lost his mother....

But, bless his heart, he was concerned about how your great grandson was doing.

I'll check back. Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving... :-)




Huck
is better than Romney.

Hewitt is trying to scare people off of Huck with the tax issue. Odd.

RIP GOP
I've come to realize that "evangelicals" are fine with legislating their views upon everyone else, and that they're fine with socialists in the white house as long as no gays are marrying and nobody's having abortions. If Hillary suddenly promised to be anti-abortion they'd vote for her. They've marginalized themselves into irrelevance. most have no business calling themselves republicans, they've destroyed what was once a great party.

PUFF
The press has for the most part have been puffing Huck as that helps Rudy. They puffed Fred for the same reasons in June. Now they are cutting Fred apart. It is the old build up and take down routine. Rudy with help from the press are keeping the conservative vote split.

However, Rudy may have outsmarted himself. He is in his own 2 way race with McCain and hoping that McCain does not attack him. The more that Rudy gets attacked the more McCain gains ground.

Romney has the middle to himself, while Fred and Huck vie for the anti Mormon vote.

Huckster is better than........

....Shrillary, maybe. I don't think they are that far apart on actions, just on their speaking abilities. Huckster will stay out of taking your guns away, but the president isn't going to decide that. It's up to the SCOTUS and the congress to make those decisions.

Now who would he appoint to the Supremes.??. Good question, along with a lot more questions.

I like to hear his siren song when he speaks. He's very impressive. But my instinct says, don't trust this bird.






onceamarine
Todavia estas despierto??

Yo estoy esperando que mis hijos se duelman pronto, porque estoy muy cansada!

I notice that in interview, Huckster ...

......won't deny he would consider being VP to Rudy Giuliani. He side stepped and fell all over himself when CBS asked him that question. Now that does tell you something I do believe. Rudy and the Huck. Wow, a story for the grandkids.

Don't you believe for a New York second he wouldn't accept that position. Now who is Huck, really.??.



Huckabee sounds good, short on ideas
Huckabee is wrong on immigration, wrong on taxes, and would be a disaster for the GOP.
He's a great talker, but his record speaks louder than his rhetoric.

My money is on Romney. He's got the big picture. How many candidates have referred to the threat of the economies of China and India. Read America Alone by Mark Styne (one of five books cited by Romney as influential). I like Tancredo and Hunter, but they are primarily single issue candidates. Now is the time for someone who can grasp all the details, all the issues. That's Romney in my book.

told yo what?
dna..if anyone has a right to sue..even you, then sue if you can afford it!? homosexual life style is an abomination...but the people deserve to be fairly considered for a job. dont you think?
as for me telling you what you want to know about supporting romney..."you aint heard nothing yet" but come to think of it ...iam through..blogging on the subject! just ask him where he stands on what ever issue you think he's wrong..or your curious about! you will get an answer..not overnight..but you will get an
answer..if you ask for an answer! i didnt start of liking romney..but after about 3-4 months of intensive study...i was convinced that he was the man for the job! and i will be to the last whatever!best wishes in your questions to him.or will you even try? gotta get ready for my next concert.... elvis

YLG

Are you trying to get me to go to bed so early. Your loving and wonderful husband would be distraught.

No es tarde, acabo de cenar. Todavía faltan como tres horas para que me acuesto. Además, tuve una siesta de dos horas en la tarde. Aquí es la misma hora de Texas. Obviamente estás cansada.

Que pasa buenas noches, señora. Y le digas a él que te duele la cabeza o algo parecido. ¡Ha!


elvis, Romney supporter
elvis,
hmmmm, scroll scroll scroll, Here it is!


"--should have a right to get a job
and should be given protection against job bigotry!"

Well, the Boy Scouts and many Scriptural churches would disagree that a person living in open, ongoing sin should be hired.

ENDA provides for full legal ravaging of anyone who would deny this "right".

But come on in to the worship service and sermon anytime. You are especially welcome, for He has come to seek and save the lost.

Mister Ranger Sir!
Ok, just because he looks exactly like the Ranger in Yogi Bear is no reason to trod the man down.

669 pardons and commuted sentences
Huckabee pardoned and commuted 669 sentences of convicted criminals. 11 of those convicted murderers. There has been little or no scrutiny of Huckabee's record.


aDNA--distorting the truth
aDNA--there you go again, distorting the truth.
Romney has never been for civil unions or gay marriage. You have bought into the liberal media which equates gay rights with gay marriage/civil unions. This was never Romney's intention and he stated so very clearly in '94. Even the leader of the gay Republican association who convinced Romney to support them admits this. Marriage is about protection of children and the family and our society. Family is that fundamental building block that makes our Country strong. If government supports gay marriage it shoots itself in the foot. It's not about being "nice" or "mean" to homosexuals--it's about protecting our children and the next generation. EVERY child deserves a Mother and a Father.

Here is an excerpt from a Newsweek article http://www.newsweek.com/id/68491/page/2 "At a three-hour meeting early in the '94 campaign, Tafel tells NEWSWEEK, he suggested that Romney be even more supportive of gay rights than Kennedy. Romney did so, writing letters and talking publicly about his support for selected gay issues. "NO ONE supported gay marriage then," says Tafel.

While I disagree vehemently with the homosexual lifestyle, and I think it is destructive, I abhor mean-spirited attacks against anyone simply because of their race/religion/sexual orientation even more.

onceamarine
Yo NUNCA tengo dolor de cabeza con my dulce!!

Nosotros cenamos a las seis de la noche, y aunque estoy despierta, mis ojos quieren cerrarse del mundo!

Empeze a leir un libro de poemas de Ruben Dario. "Lo Fatal" es tan doloroso:

Dichoso el arbol, que es apenas sensitivo,
Y mas la piedra dura, porque esa ya no siente...

Si lo encuentras, debes leerlo. Me encanta Dario.

Romney commuted ZERO criminals
PArepublican--interesting post. Reminds me that Romney didn't commute a single criminal in his 4 year tenure in MA. While I question this a bit--it shows without a doubt that Romney has no sympathy for criminals and believes in being tough on crime.

Romney's proud page of history, 2002
Cotton pickin, Romney rejected a marriage amendment in 2002! He said it did not allow for civil unions! So now Person A and Person B are getting married in MA, the only state in the Union.

Stop bugging me. You are lazy.

boy scouts...and a job!
well....now i know all i need to know about you forget huckabee, romney!! dont compare an apple to a bowling ball!! you sir dont know squat about the scriptures! if you think you can save lost souls..by saying to them..your a sinner so you shall do with out work...your the lost soul, pal! christ went into places that surprised even the apostles..and the savior said the whole have no need of a physician! i can see your a real huckster too! people wanted to stone a woman..did christ say "yeah,sock it to her,guys!"
of course your without sin- your a real ..DUH!all have sinned and come short of the glory of god! or did you hear that one...if your an indication of what it takes to support mike....
forget it!i can see why a lot of people turn off to church!
if your "one of these born again christians" i pass you better save your own soul dna!since your intelligence has left you..save your soul!ELVIS

ENDA is lawful legal ravagement

elvis et al,
Come to the service, you will be loved, and hear something of great interest to you. Go to a Calvary Chapel.

Do not sue a church because you claim you were denied a job. That is legal ravagement of believers.

Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free excercise thereof.

YLG

You are probably asleep by now.

Rubén Darío is the greatest of the Latin American authors. Although dead now these many years, he still holds that honor.

He was born and always considered himself a Nicaragûense. That also is my second home of the heart.


fair tax

Although I like the idea of funding the federal government by consumption taxes rather than income taxes:

I really dislike it when a policy proposal is identified by a phrase containing positive adjective(s) instead of words that define precisely what the policy is.


There is so much garbage in Washington that is defined by such phrases. Being an immigration policy junkie the ones that come to mind are "comprehensive reform" and "Agjobs".

I have not studied the "Fair Tax". I probably would actually be favorably disposed. I would say step #1 though is to start describing it with a phrase that explains what it is rather than tries to put a positive spin on it.

Left wingers do that crap all the time, how about we adhere to a higher standard?

pianogirl said
"Beware the Huckster and think about why the media are pushing him so hard... "


Good point. Since the media have given up on McCain as their Fair Haired Kid, maybe Huckabee is his replacement.

bot feeder

That could be considered a considered remark. Let's start with real names and not slogans.

I'll believe in a consumer tax when it has a ligit name. Excellent.

Bad picture choice
You know, people say I look like Tim Curry. In this pic, he really does resemble Gomer from Andy Griffith.

I wouldn't have voted for him anyway but this just drives home the 'Hickabee" narrative, don't you think?

Disturbing links about Mike Huckabee
Mike Huckabee disses Americans, Mexicans, promotes illegal immigration: http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/005609.html

Christians Need To Beware Of Mike Huckabee:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071102.ht ml

While Gov. of Arkansas, Huckabee was AGAINST proving citizenship in order to register to vote. He called those who were in favor of this “racists”...
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050218/news_lz1e1 8perkins.html

Huckabee fought hard to kill an Arkansas bill which would have cut off social services for illegal aliens. Huckabee called the bill, “anti-Christian” and “un-American”...
http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2005/01/28/News/316347. html

Huckabee supported in-state tuition for illegal aliens...
http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2005/03/11/News/318458. html

Huckabee’s opposition to the illegal aliens bill:
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000718.html

with aDNA--the spin starts here
aDNA--gotta hand it to you, you have a great perpensity for half truths and no context. By the way, you seem like you have an anti-Mormon axe to grind...am I correct?

You take sound bites and other facts and try to spin them to your bias. At least be intellectually honest. Do everyone a favor, and provide sources for all of your claims so we can research what you are saying to see the full picture. I will admit when I am wrong, will you?

While I agree I don't think Romney is perfect, I think he is the best candidate for President.

On civil unions:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/02/23/romney s_stance_on_civil_unions_draws_fire/

He opposes gay marriage and civil unions (article references several 2002 statements) but if he had to make a decision between the two, he would choose civil unions.

On the 2002 MA Marriage ammendment:
http://www.quickoverview.com/election2008/mitt-romney-overv iew.html
Romney was sworn in as the 70th governor of Massachusetts on January 2, 2003, along with Lieutenant Governor Kerry Healey.

He was not governor at the time this was presented and at the time:
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Mitt_Romney_Civil_Rights.ht m
he [supported] benefits for gay partners, but not gay marriage
All citizens deserve equal rights, regardless of their sexual orientation. While he does not support gay marriage, Mitt Romney believes domestic partnership status should be recognized in a way that includes the potential for health benefits and rights of survivorship.
Source: Campaign web site, http://www.romney2002.com, "Issues" Sep 17, 2002

Do I agree with Romney's stance at that time--No, but the way you put it doesn't give the full picture. He fought gay marriage throughout his tenure, but also made a promise that he wouldn't change the law as it stood in regards to homosexual rights. He kept his promise.

Fred

Thanks for the links. I am too busy to dig all of this out for myself, but your links and the Arkansas News sure do paint the picture.

He needs to be hung before he hurts this country more than the rest of those who ought to be hung.

Hanging is an old Arkansas punishment for stealing horses and food. Guess what this Huckster deserves.

Two or three hangings at least. He is bought and sold by Tyson's Chickens in Rogers, Arkansas, twice over. Hang'em and hang'em high. Leave him in a public plaza for several days until the buzzards are picking at his bones, just so the public gets a good look at a chicken thief's just deserves.

Now you all know why Tyson's wants him in office. It's called immigration reform, so Tyson's and all the rest can keep using the illegals.


another voice
jt,
well dna is so typical of so many people i have met in my life ! tell a lie but mix it with a lot of truth..but mask it with religious expressions... i remember very clearly pres. ronald reagan was criticized often by the exreme
right of the g.o.p. but when it was all done."oh what a great president,blah,blah,etc!" what hypocrits! you can go so far right you join the ranks of hitler,etc! reagan..switched on abortion
and did a few things that many of these bloggers would hang him! goldwater..got clobbered! who did the g.o.p. who did goldwater beat for the nomination--gov. george romney who served 3 terms a gov. of michigan! an extreme conservative will not enter the white house..iam not happy about that..but that is reality. yes romney is the only person that can win both wings of the party! elvis!

Huckabee & Fair Tax
The Fair Tax, if understood by the voters in '08 would mean a landslide victory for Huckabee. Someone on his staff needs to get hold of him, sit him down and teach him this. 1) No more federal taxes of any kind, 2) family of 4 gets $480 at beginning of each month for the necessities of life, 3) no more tax returns. Keep repeating it.
Now there is much more to the Fair Tax than these 3 sound bites. Huckabee needs to make this the leading plank in his campaign. With these idiotic debates that we have today he'll do good to get these three reasons pounded into the minds of the voters. When he has a chance to expound on the virtues he can really make up ground. Note how afraid the big government people are of the Fair Tax. Almost to a man they cite the buried tax at 30% which is a total lie. They and the liberal media have had their marching orders on how to scare the people and distort the Fair Tax. They are all so much on the same page that it would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Huckabee: pro-life, pro-gun, God fearing
Mike Huckabee is fine Christian man with
a solid pro-family agenda, who will also protect our second ammendment rights and the rights of the unborn, and the sanctity of marriage.

What could be more conservative than that?

Mike Huckabee will be a fine President. He will defeat Barack Obama handily next November.


A True Conservative
Dear Miss Parker:

Governor Huckabee, born and bred in Hope, Arkansas (like Clinton) and a former governor of that southern state (again like Clinton) ironically remains the greatest anti-Clinton among the prospective nominees. Like Guiliani and Romney, he had to make some hard compromises with a Democrat majority to get things done. However, in both his professional and personal life, he's remained a committed conservative and a social one ne plus ultra.

While we haggle over individual issues, one thing should stay in focus. Character counts. When given a leader of character, issues tend to be resolved. We need look back no further than Ronald Reagan to understand that. Mike Huckabee is no "huckster". He's the genuine article. Good American citizens are now seeing this and his underfunded campaign is rising accordingly.

Addendum
To all fellow conservatives, whether pro or anti-Huckabee, let me urge you not to give in to the temptation of launching personal attacks on any of the GOP candidates. All of them bring strengths and weaknesses into their respective campaigns. All have different personal stories and have successfully met challenges. None will meet our personal criteria 100%. They are deserving of the benefit of a doubt. And one of them, we must hope and pray, will be our next president.

I'm a hard-core social conservative, myself, and an unrepentent veteran. Yet (with the possible exception of Ron Paul!) I will loyally campaign for whichever of them wins the nomination. I will do so- and if for no other reason- than the catastrophic alternative presented by any of the "others". Let's be good neighbors in the true Republican tradition and concentrate more on our standard-bearers' virtues... and forgiving of their perceived shortcomings.

And Happy Holy Days.

sanctity of marriage
I'd love to see how he'd do this. Before you people worry about homosexuals, you might want to stop the hetrosexuals from trashing it first.


thats right
steve stated like rudy and romney dealing with the democrats is a real pain..hard decisions! that is the thing many people are missing ....praise the lord and prayer works great in our personal life..but we are talking about keeping those loony democrats out of the white house! and this nation is very populated with voters who are not crazy about religion!and if dick morris is right hillary team is planning on firing up millions of young women who dont know diddly squat about running a nation and coudnt care less about "preaching" from a baptist minister!we are talking about 18 year olds!this is not an endorsemment of rudy..i dont want him! and folks its going to boil down to rudy and romney! tho' i am really for romney..
and huckabee is a disaster on immigration....
i could live with other candidates..anthing but hillary!we're going to be buried by a democratic congress...that is the key! hopefully,we can unite on nov. 8,2008! elvis

elvis, Romney and ENDA


You asked,

"homosexual life style is an abomination...but the people deserve to be fairly considered for a job. dont you think?"

No, Congress cannot dictate that to churches, or any other traditional gathering, as this is an outright abridgement of the right to the free excercise of religion. I made the distinction that the doors are open wide to attend services.

Romney touted civil unions,denies it now
I made the case that Romney did reject, or condemn, the Massachusetts marriage amendment in 2002. I believe he was running for governor at the time. I provided the source, and used quotes.

This is no half-truth; it is a matter of record.

He said that the amendment did not provide for civil unions, and so he opposed it. Now he claims he has always opposed civil unions (inre, Laura Ingraham show, interview.)




Mitt and Hillary, victims of bigotry

You say,

"By the way, you seem like you have an anti-Mormon axe to grind...am I correct?"

Or maybe I am attacking Hillary because she is a female?

Poor Mitt, and poor Hillary. They can't get a fair shake (even though they are running for president).

Doing the Possible
Dear Elvis:

"Politics", as Bill Buckley famously said, "is the art of the possible." The trick is getting as many good "possibilities" as one can, especially under adverse conditions. Guiliani, Romney and Huckabee are the three GOP candidates with extensive executive (vs. legislative) experience. All three had to do hard dealing with left wing majorities, some of whom they HAD to win over to accomplish anything. To get as much done as they did required not only hard nosed dickering, but a clear understanding of the nature of the opposition.

This was a major flaw of both the Presidents Bush. It wasn't with President Reagan. It's not with any of the Republican contenders (thank God!) but especially so with these three. As Mike Huckabee carries the best all-around conservative credentials, he's my first choice.
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