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Monday, November 19, 2007
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Survey shows progress of values agenda among black Americans
by Star Parker
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Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


A major survey of black American attitudes just released by the Pew Research Center gives reasons for both sobriety and encouragement.

The survey offers an economic snapshot showing that, overall, blacks have moved forward since 1980. In 2006, one in three black households had a median income of more than $50,000, whereas in 1980 less than one in five was in this bracket.

At the other end of the spectrum, two of every five black households had a median income of less than $25,000 in 2006 compared to half in 1980.

However, over this same period, there has been little change in the overall gap in income between blacks and whites, with median black income remaining around 60 percent that of whites.

But, in what I believe to be positive news, this extensive survey of attitudes produces a picture showing blacks feeling increasingly personally responsible for their situation and a diminishing tendency for blacks to see their community as monolithic.

When asked to explain why blacks "can't get ahead," 53 percent responded that "blacks are mostly responsible for their own condition" compared to 30 percent who attributed the problem to "racial discrimination."

Younger blacks are less likely than their older counterparts to attribute barriers to progress to discrimination.

Forty percent of respondents between ages 50 and 64 say that blacks can't get ahead due to discrimination and 43 percent say it's their own fault. In contrast, only 25 percent of blacks under 50 attribute the problem to discrimination and 60 percent say it's their own fault.

This doesn't mean that blacks do not feel that racial discrimination is still not widely present in the country.

Sixty seven percent say they perceive it when they apply for a job, 65 percent sense it when they seek housing, 43 percent feel it in applying to college, and 50 percent when they go to a restaurant or shop.

So, despite a pervasive sense among blacks that racial awareness and discrimination remains widely present, blacks today, particularly younger blacks, minimize this as a factor in explaining their condition and their ability to progress.

There also seems to be an increasing awareness among blacks about the problems that are indeed impeding their progress.

When those surveyed were asked to identify what they perceive to be major problems in their communities, 58 percent responded a "lack of good jobs." However, 50 percent also identified the problem of unwed mothers, 49 percent said crime, 46 percent school drop-out rates, and 32 percent the quality of schools.

Given that the study reports that 29 percent of black households are headed by a married couple compared to 53 percent of white households, and that 66 percent of black births are to unmarried women, compared to 24 percent of white births, there seems to be an important realism and awareness today among blacks as to where the real problems are in their lives and communities.

Similar themes emerge when looking at the type of leadership and figures in the news that blacks view most positively.

Only 18 percent of those surveyed see black political leaders as "very effective." However, 36 percent of black ministers and clergy are viewed as "very effective."

Eighty five percent say that Bill Cosby, who has been actively speaking and writing about the importance of black personal responsibility, is a "good influence." However, only 17 percent see rapper 50 Cent as a "good influence" and 42 percent see him as a bad influence.

The survey devoted quite a bit of attention to attitudes about Barack Obama, which, among blacks, are overwhelmingly positive. Eighty nine percent view him positively, and 89 percent respond that he shares their interests somewhat or "a lot."

However, 39 percent of blacks, compared to 26 percent of whites, feel that his race diminishes his elections prospects.

What might politicians who are courting the black vote conclude from all this?

For one thing, blacks are increasingly buying into the "values" agenda. Growing numbers of blacks are buying into the personal responsibility message, appreciate the destructiveness of promiscuity and the importance of education. Hence, blacks are seeing their future well being more in terms of personal life management than in terms of political action.

However, blacks retain a pervasive sense of vulnerability. They see racism continuing to loom and have a low level of confidence that they can depend on our courts and police to protect them.

So, despite progress on the part of conservatives to woo the black vote based on the values agenda, big government Democrats continue to hold on to most black voters.

The potential positive news for conservatives is that the movement in black attitudes is in their direction. With proper care, attention, and education, more black voters can be reached by the conservative appeal.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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the new poll
it would appear that the poll indicates progress amongst blacks and how they view their situation. It indicates that relying on the old failed programs of the dims have not produced the resultys necessary to help blacks make success of their own lives. But what is really needed is for white libs to start listening to the likes of dr. cosby. Many whites also need to hear his message of personal responsibility

Some Questions
Some questions I'd like to ask of those who felt discriminated against when applying for a job -- because I've seen this among white youth and have to wonder:

Were you wearing a suit and tie or, for the ladies, a professional-looking dress with a modest neckline and hemline? Or, at least, a well-pressed pair of business khakis and a collared shirt? With suitably businesslike shoes?

Was your hair neatly-trimmed, carefully combed, and free of unnatural dye colors?

Were your accessories and articles of jewelry appropriate and unobtrusive?

Did you cover all tattoos?

Were your nails neatly filed and, for the ladies, did you make sure to skip the wild nail art?

Having encountered a number of WHITE youth who got quite sulky about the idea that jeans, sneakers, and a favorite t-shirt were not suitable clothes for a job interview I just have to wonder.

Is it possible that potential employers were not discriminating against dark skin but rather against people who either don't know or refuse to obey the conventions of presenting oneself in a professional manner?

If you go back to 1960, even
before the Civil Rights Act, 90% of black children were born to married couples.

Liberalism converted that number in the late 80s to 85% illegitimacy in some inner cities.

Feminists have become stuck on the Hollywood model of "single" Murphy-Brown motherhood where the gadzillion-dollar babe has her very public non-father baby that is raised in a multi-million dollar house by $100,000 a year nannies and bodyguards. That is no example for young women, who can barely sustain "pink-color" employment, to indulge in "single" parenthood.

Two ways of predicting success for children of any race or ec. condition is 1) they are NOT born to unwed teenaged mothers who didn't finish high school, and they have sit-down meals as a family.

The "TRUTH"
The "GREATEST" trick played on Black People is that Democrats care for them.Republicans are known to be insensitive to their agenda.As was the case, when President Reagan, failed to adequately fund the Civil Rights division of the Justice department.The reasoning was to mitigate, the number of civil rights cases pursued.But, when you look at the administrations of Presidents Clinton and Carter,Blacks fair only slightly better.In the end Blacks must realize an "AGENDA" and forsake Both Parties.The future of Blacks, is not attached to any Party,it is attached to their commitment to themselves.Ms. Parker,I examined the fact pattern, you established in you article, and as usual,the most crucial elements are "MISSING"!SOLUTIONS...

Racism is ugly
In my local paper, I noted on a blog that racism is ugly, and that certain other contributors would view me as a racist simply because I am white, without knowing anything about me (and, as such, those individuals are racist). Here is the response from one individual:

"But since you asked, yes, racists do come in all colors, and I have no problem letting you know as I have done on numerous other posts, that I am indeed racist!

I'm racist because I don't care to believe everything whitey says is so, I'm racist because I don't believe that we are all equal, I'm racist because I could care less about what any white person thinks....the list could go on and on but why bother. I could care less whether you are racist or not, because at the end of the day it doesn't seem to matter that I may have more education, money, pay taxes, never been convicted of anything, never did drugs, never sold drugs, served my country...the only thing that will stand out is the color of my skin and that is what I and every other black person will be judged by. That is my reality. I'm sorry that you couldn't be black to ever experience it, I think every white person should experience it. Your view would surely change.

Yes racism is ugly but it is a product of this environment that continues to thrive."

When people assume that racism is present, you cannot convince them otherwise. How will we ever come together when attitudes like this exist??

My Paternal Grandmother
Thought FDR walked on water and voiced the same line to me, that Democrats cared about The People and Republicans didn’t. It seems that this line has been used by Liberals for Decades, thankfully in The Digital Age it seems this line is being EXPOSED FOR THE LOAD OF PEAT MOSS THAT IT IS!

racism still exists
We perform a field experiment to measure racial discrimination in the labor market. We respond
with fictitious resumes to help-wanted ads in Boston and Chicago newspapers. To manipulate
perception of race, each resume is assigned either a very African American sounding name or a very
White sounding name. The results show significant discrimination against African-American
names: White names receive 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. We also find that race affects
the benefits of a better resume. For White names, a higher quality resume elicits 30 percent more
callbacks whereas for African Americans, it elicits a far smaller increase. Applicants living in better
neighborhoods receive more callbacks but, interestingly, this effect does not differ by race. The
amount of discrimination is uniform across occupations and industries. Federal contractors and
employers who list “Equal Opportunity Employer” in their ad discriminate as much as other
employers. We find little evidence that our results are driven by employers inferring something
other than race, such as social class, from the names. These results suggest that racial discrimination
is still a prominent feature of the labor market.


Marianne Bertrand Sendhil Mullainathan
Graduate School of Business MIT
University of Chicago 50 Memorial Drive, E52-380a
1101 East 58th Street, R0229D Cambridge, MA 02142
Chicago, IL 60637 and NBER
and NBER mullain@mit.edu
marianne.bertrand@gsb.uchicago.edu

here is what cosby says about racism
this is from meet the press this past september





MR. COSBY: Let’s deal first with what people call the systemic—the, the racism that exists in this country, which is absolutely for real. But people just say it. They say, “Well, there’s systemic and institutional racism.” “What do you mean by that?” Well, what I mean is that the power structure can stop a person from getting a better education. It can stop them from living in better conditions. It can stop improvements from being made. For instance, if you have a slum landlord, if you’re lower, lower economic, to get that fixed, to bring the law in on this person, it, it just doesn’t happen. If police decide to ride in and arrest, if laws are made to go against you, I mean, this kind of thing is very, very hurtful. And then we move into areas of health, health care, where racism can stop a person from getting immediate attention...


here is what cosby says about racism
from september meet the press


MR. COSBY: Let’s deal first with what people call the systemic—the, the racism that exists in this country, which is absolutely for real. But people just say it. They say, “Well, there’s systemic and institutional racism.” “What do you mean by that?” Well, what I mean is that the power structure can stop a person from getting a better education. It can stop them from living in better conditions. It can stop improvements from being made. For instance, if you have a slum landlord, if you’re lower, lower economic, to get that fixed, to bring the law in on this person, it, it just doesn’t happen. If police decide to ride in and arrest, if laws are made to go against you, I mean, this kind of thing is very, very hurtful. And then we move into areas of health, health care, where racism can stop a person from getting immediate attention...


oops sorry about the repeat post
when i looked it was not there

conservatives and blacks
repeatedly i see some conservative posters talk about how blacks have been fooled by democrats.

what a great way to start a discussion.

call them foolish and stupid, that will really convince someone that you care about their issues




how much more?
When will the vast majority in this country realize that there is not enough time and money in the world to satisfy blacks and their liberal caretakers?

Why was time and money wasted on such a ridiculous study, when the stark answer is obvious and unchangable?

You don't have to be a racist to call a spade a...well, you know!


Hello Religiouslib
I'd be interested to see what the studies would be if someone like me, a white girl with a white girl name, would apply to places like:

Ebony Magazine, BET - Black Entertainment Television, or any black owned corporation or small business. Do you think they would hire someone like me?

You know that answer. Reverse racism exists.

Black people are not under any restricted laws to have to hire anyone who is white. If black people had a choice of who they would hire at face value, it wouldn't be someone like me. To them, color matters.

And if that poll were actually worth something, they would investigated what I just presented, which proves that discrimination and racism flourishes against white people as well, and just as blatant.

So many blacks have sued companies for not being hired based on them being black, and they win. I would love to go to black companies and watch them not hire me and sue them based on me being white.

Do you think I'd win? Are whites allowed to be discriminated against? Or do we just take it?



Getting a job
I agree that the one thing working against young people of any colour (and some old enough to know better) is their insistence on dressing like circus clowns.

We also had a girl come in to interview for a job who appeared to have a speech impediment. One of the younger employees diagnosed the difficulty: she normally wore a tongue stud and had removed it for the interview, but the effect it had on her speech (making her sound as if she had just come from the dentist) lingered on.

I do substantial work with "homeless" teenagers and one of the things I ask is why they are unemployed. If you ask this question in the right way you get candid answers. Most of the answers boil down to "Because I dowanna dress up or cut my hair or remove my piercings." When people would literally rather die than clean up their act, well, maybe it's time to let them die.

shells
hi shells, hope things are going well with you.

is there reverse discrimination? sometimes as was pointed out in the baake case, (google it if you don't remember it) but generally there is much more documentation for racial discrimination against blacks.

in 1977 i went to the delta area of mississippi and found resturants that still had "colored" and white sides to resturants and drinking fountains.

that was only 30 years ago!

most blacks have encountered such things in their lifetime and it is not an easy thing to forget.

the study i documented was done by the univesity of chicago and mit.

you ask would you be turned down by black companies and maybe so but i see black musicians like alicia keys and others who have white members in their band.

elitist
what is the stark answer that you say is "obvious and unchangeable".

Shells
I do not need to say anything more on this subject as your analysis is completely on point....

ReligiousLib
How many Blacks are on Shrillary Cartoon's Staff? How many Blacks were in Bill Clinton's Cabinet? Jimmy Coward's? LBJ's? JFK's?

No doubt some racism exists, but to say it is all from The Right is PROFILING and not very LIBERAL!!!

actually georgetwin
jocelyn elders was black but was as rejected by the republicans as well as the secretarry of transportation brown. who got killed.

i re-read my post and did not say it was only conservatives.

religiouslib - no such thing
Reverse: Opposite or contrary in position, direction, order, or character.

Discrimination: Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice.

Which means that 'reverse discrimination' is the opposite of discrimination.

People use the term 'reverse discrimination' to describe situations where whites are discriminated against in favor of minorities. But it's still discrimination.

Discrimination is wrong - always.

(Definitions are from dictionary.com)

Clarification
Let me clarify: Discrimination based on race, sex, national origin, etc, is wrong.

I just KNOW someone is going to jump on me and say "what about the employer that doesn't hire a poorly dressed applicant? That's discrimination based on the way they are dressed!" I know that there are times when discrimination is warranted, necessary, and legal. That's not what I'm talking about...sorry if anyone got distracted.

religiouslib
OK, I stand corrected on The Conservative Issue. However, Elders was rejected because she is a LOON! President Bush has as many Black Cabinet Members as Billary Clinton. You ignored my questions on Jimmy Coward, LBJ, et al!

Mind Boggling Conversation
My job brings me in close contact with diverse people for brief periods. We form a close community for a short time to accomplish a construction project, and then we disperse. I see the same individuals repeatedly, but in different contexts, in different locations, and within different groups of people.

I recently had a profoundly enlightening discussion with a black dude, about forty years old, performing a skilled and relatively well-paying job.

He expressed economic opinions I could not agree with, and he had a negative attitude about GWB's "theft" of the Florida vote, but he was equally critical of Democrats. He claimed a college degree and time in prison (for "stupidity"). Some members of his family were educators, but he made more money as a construction worker than they made as professionals, which seemed to be a point of discussion, if not contention, within the family.

He and I were in total agreement on the value and utility of education and hard work, and he was contemptuous of the welfare attitude in general and among some (other) members of his own family in particular.

He seemed pleased that I spoke highly of Frederick Douglass' self-education, and he was proud that some of his family had attended Tuskegee Institute, with its emphasis on self-reliance. He agreed that the precipitous decline in black family life coincided with President Johnson's Welfare Program that paid ($6 trillion total) black families to disintegrate.

Then came the kicker. His contention was that the destruction of the black family was deliberate, as a means of control of blacks. His idea on this momentarily disoriented me, so much so that he had to ask me if I was OK. Yes, I was OK, but I had just gained a profound new insight into a problem that had long perplexed me.

Religiouslib
I know only 30 years ago in certain areas of the US you would find No Blacks Allowed signs somewhere. Today they don't exist.

Today we have law upon law, hate crime upon hate crime, Sharpton upon Jesse, to protect any minority against defamation and discrimination. Racism may exist, it's more of a personal choice rather than blaming an entire culture, but it is against the law to act upon your hatred.

Who's protecting my feelings? What if I said the Black Academy awards or the Hispanic awards (don't know the real titles of the ceremonues but they exist) hurt my feelings because I am white and I'm left out?

Blacks and all minorites can receive Oscars, any music award, any grant or college fund that whites have been getting because it goes to the "Best Person" and not the best person of a specific color.

But minorites can have these awards, these businesses, say any hateful remark they choose and have absolutely no accountability if it discriminates against whites. This is happening today.

Try having an All White TN Network, All White Awards Ceremony and see how long that lasts.

Shells
"Try having an All White TN Network", All White Awards Ceremony and see how long that lasts."

MTV, NBC, CBS The Academuy Awards,The country music awards and the Tony's are all dominated by whites ,and blacks only have marginal presence.

Thoughts cannot be eradicated
My ethnicity has opened many doors for me over the years. I received a full scholarship for undergraduate school in 1981 and significant assistance for grad school in 1988. There were some black students at my undergrad university offered the same opportunities and refused to do the work required to complete their degrees, and some of them blamed racism when asked to leave the program.I cannot possibly care what people think, as long as I have opportunities, which I do, as do all other blacks who will avail themselves.


I think more societal prejudice is directed toward fat and/or unattractive women, frankly. While weight isn't an issue for me, I am not considered attractive by society's standards. Before becoming established in my profession, I KNOW I was passed over in favor of prettier but less qualified women when I was younger. I also know that my heavier/less attractive girls with whom I work tend to draw more severe responses for traffic violations and disciplinary school issues. Again, there is nothing for it but to become the best you can be and fire the thought police.

Anthony Thomas
I say phooey on your post. But I will admit the Country Music awards is predominantly white. Show me a black country musician of today. No one is telling blacks they cannot play country music, blacks just prefer not to.

Again, to automatically assume because a person happens to be white they are deemed a racist is ridiculous. That's why I believe racism is a personal choice and cannot be blamed by broad swooping genralizations against one entire people.

You say MTV, CBS, NBC, ABC and whatnot are predominantly white? So, you've never seen black people on those networks? Hispanics? They never had prime time shows?

I think you're reaching.

One thing for sure is whatever media is out there you pointed out, whites do not exclude anyone. In fact, today all I see is all media bending over to promote diversity.

However, why is it ok for blacks and hispanics to corner their own market, no whites allowed? Isn't that the very barrier you wanted to break down? Why isn't it ok for whites but ok for minorites?

Mind Boggling Conversation ...
It is a principle of Marxist thought that the family and family values had to be destroyed.

"The theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property. ... Abolition of the family! ... Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality ... this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads ... In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things." (The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.)

We see this thought in action in our country today, as the so-called “Liberals” seek to undermine and destroy family and religious values. But LBJ as a Communist apparatchik? Probably not. But LBJ as a useless idiot of an alien Communists ideology suddenly becomes apparent, based on my friend’s stunning observation.

Anthony Thomas
There is a huge difference between something being dominated by whites and blacks being excluded.

You care too much about pigment and seem to busy yourself observing what others are and have vs. what you can be and have. Go get busy being excellent and encourage others to do the same. That's leadership, black and otherwise.

Discrimination is wrong - always.
No Tolerance for Liars: Discrimination is wrong - always.

With all due respect to you and to all the others who have posted, but you are dead wrong.

Discrimination is the natural order of things. We all discriminate. You buy oranges instead of apples, brick homes instead of wood siding, attend Church or go jogging/golf, etc. We all also discriminate in the jobs we seek, the cars we drive and where we go on vacation. As employers we discriminate on virtually every aspect of a prospective employee. What is unnatural is to not discriminate as we have been told by someone that we must. If that makes us racists or bigots then that is what we are naturally.

If we as a person believe another individual needs assistance in aspiring to improve themselves and we are inspired to assist, that is still discrimination. But that is the kind we have been instructed to follow by God.

Racism Does Exist
religiouslib-

I do believe that racism exists. I dare say that most who post on this site would agree. Do you search for evidence of racism to prove its existence? When you find its evidence do you say "Ah Ha!!" Just what does it mean? Do you want people to shake there heads and say , "Yep, it's still there. We need to spend more money and pass more laws."? I believe it will always be there. Does that mean that there is no hope for the victims of this omni-present evil? Are they to just wait along the fringes of society until its gone? Wait until someone else tells them it's OK to pursue your dreams? Do your studies and analysis look at all the boxes of ethnicity we are used to seeing on our standard forms and then some? Why do some ethnicities seem to rise above this racism and succeed? It still exists but yet they move on, up and some actually succeed. Again, I'm not saying racism does not exist, rather accept it and do not wait until some politician or academic tells you it's gone. It will always be there, and people and organizations will always use it to further thier interests (both the racist and others).

Please at least make an attempt
Anthony Thomas, please at least make an ATTEMPT to look like you're intellectually honest. Seriously, dude, saying things like the following really make you look incredibly foolish:

(Shells wrote:) "Try having an All White TN Network", All White Awards Ceremony and see how long that lasts."

(And Anthony Thomas replied:) "MTV, NBC, CBS The Academuy Awards,The country music awards and the Tony's are all dominated by whites ,and blacks only have marginal presence."

Pulleeeeeez. You can't see the difference between a show on which there are mostly whites, and a show that calls its "The White TV Awards?"

Shells was referring, clearly, to such events as the "Black TV Awards." Such shows are common. If there were a "White TV Awards," you would denounce it as racist. You know this perfectly well.

Come on, man, I know you're intelligent enough to see that. What's wrong with you, that you attempt such a LAME, SILLY deflection, and expect us to take it seriously?

(For that matter, I wonder if you have the intellectual honesty, having posited the mostly-white Country Music awards as evidence of racism, to posit the mostly-black NFL as racism, too. Sauce for the goose, ya know...)

(And calling MTV and the Academny Awards mostly white? Too stupid for words.)

religious lib and research
We've seen a pattern here on Townhall, of a fellow who calls himself "religious lib" posting the results of surveys as proof positive supporting his positions.

His posts routinely garble the statistics, and evidence less-than-rigorous reading. He doesn't read to gain knowledge; he reads to gather ammunition. This produces frequent errors and blinds him to alternative research or explanations. Plus, he seems to think that by quoting a study, he ends all possible debate.

In this case, religious lib does get the study right, but not the conclusion.

The study he's talking about (but doesn't post a citation for) is by Bertrand and Mullainathan, entitled "Are Emily and Brendan More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal?"

http://www.econ.yale.edu/seminars/apmicro/am02/bertrand-021 204.pd

A different perspective may be found in Fryer and Levitt's "The Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names."

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/qjec _vol119_3.pdf

Short version: the MIT/Chicago study religious lib quotes suffers from an intervening variable. The names in the study turn out to accurately predict the socio-economic status of the individual; the employers could have been reacting to perceived socioeconomic status, not to race.

From the Harvard study: "We find, however, no negative relationship between having a distinctively Black name and later life outcomes after controlling for a child’s circumstances at birth."

Whatever reaction there is to names, it doesn't affect personal achievement.

Ooops, broken link
In my post about religious lib, my link to the Bertrand-Mullainathan study is broken; I accidentally left the "f" off the "pdf" at the end of the link.

Here's the correct link:

http://www.econ.yale.edu/seminars/apmicro/am02/bertrand-021 204.pdf

black names and discrimination part one
one of the issues that needs to be addressed is that some conservatives like my friend inkling revival(who has a reputation for vile comments and insults) is more concerned with rebutting others point of view rather than searching for the truth.

as i compared the two studies, i found that the study he professes is the more accurate only uses the first name of black women and their children.

males are not included, and the study only covers california.

the study i first mention used both males and females, it uses both first and last names and it dealt with resumes and job interviews. that study also took place in two cities, boston and chicago.

the first study deals with resumes and job interviews while the second deals with life outcomes generally.


black names and discrimination part two


are they comparable, in some ways yes and in other ways no.

in fact the authors of the second study mentioned by inkling revival admit as much when they say:

there are three interpretations of the data that
reconcile the two sets of results: (1) Black names are used as
signals of race by discriminatory employers at the resume stage,
but are unimportant once an interview reveals the candidate’s
race, or (2) Black names provide a useful signal to employers
about labor market productivity after controlling for information
on the resume, or (3) names themselves have a modest causal
impact on job callbacks and unemployment duration that we are
unable to detect.


notice they admit there could be race signals used to discriminate at the resume level.

or there could be a modest casual impact they are unable to detect.


those are not definitive statements and when taken together with the discrepancies in the way the studies were done it leaves the question of discrimination based on name recognition with more questions than answers.

unlike some conservatives like inkling revival i do not profess to know all the answers.



can both studies be accurate?

absolutely.

can both studies be used to make a point one way or another.

race in this country is a long standing issue of contention and studies are needed to help all americans come to a more informed opinion of the problem and possible situations.

i welcome inkling revivals information as it lends itself to the discussion.

Mother of 4 - Questions -
- - did you have somebody proof-read the resume for spelling and grammatical errors?

regarding Black Sounding Names
I know I'm going to get pilloried for this, but it's gotta be said.

Many so-called "black sounding names" also happen to sound ignorant, or "ghetto". It's like showing up to the interview with full-body tattoos and multiple piercings.

Certainly, this is becoming more popular, and many hard-working, intelligent people are getting them -- but they still have the "violent thug" or "lazy druggie" image that can scare off employers. Indeed, that's part of their appeal.

I think it would be interesting to see what specific "black-sounding" names were used in that study. "Williams", for example? Or, "Loqueesha"?

Many blacks are named "Williams", but so are many whites.

Even so, nowadays even blacks ridicule how names like "Sediki", "Loqueesha" or "Seniqua", that just sound so "ghetto".

And if it's a Muslim name, then an employer is likely to think (a) potential terrorist, or (b) radical follower of Louis Farrakhan and/or other Black Muslims. Either way, the employer will naturally be disinclined to give such a person a second look.

Recognize that such generalizations never tell the whole story; no generalization can. Part of the problem of racial discrimination is stereotyping and generalization.

But employers often get hundreds of applications for a single job opening. They don't have time analyze the nitty gritty details of every candidate. They are NOT going to try to get to know you before making a decision. Generalizations, even bad ones, are absolutely necessary.

And you don't get a second chance to make a first impression.

Bottom line: Loqueesha should use her initials instead of her full name when sending out resumes.

religiousLib
The power structure in this country is predominately white. Moreover, there are more whites than blacks. Assuming racism is a human frailty spread equally across the color spectrum, there will be many more instances of whites indulging this abuse than blacks simply because more opportunities occur. All things being equal, blacks prefer to hang with blacks, and other races share this preference. True color blindness is a long way off, although progress can be seen. Pointing out divisions, and early play of the race card doesn't help much, as you yourself pointed out when you noted the futility of beginning a post by stating blacks had been fools. Moreover, whites are very aware of the relative rates of black on white and white on black crime, the tax burden of relative rates of illegitimate births, and the highly visible refusal of many prominent blacks to blame these things on.....whites. Few whites feel any personal responsibility for these problems. But a feeling of antagonism, justified or not, builds up. When blacks riot, they set fires. When whites riot, they move Areesha's resume' to the bottom of the pile.

Stating the situation accurately
"Racism" used to mean "white people felt that that negro race was intellectually inferior, incapable of performing complicated tasks or of understanding complex ideas, and suited primarily for physical labor."

That sort of racism occurs -- nowhere. There may be a random individual or two here and there who still believes this, but they're likely over 50 and hold no power.

Today, what people experience goes more like this:

A white person who knows few blacks personally, sees blacks on MTV, on the news, on football and basketball games, behind the counter at McDonalds, and at the mall. A large proportion of the blacks they see on TV have committed crimes, and speak of violence; others have achieved immense wealth because they run fast or jump high, but they usually squander their wealth. The blacks they see at the mall are insolent, loud, and rude. The blacks they see behind the counter move slowly, speak truculently, and don't seem to care much about them.

They don't like what they see, and based on their experience, they expect blacks to be loud, rude, violent, and strong.

This is NOT racism. This is a correct inference drawn from their experience. The fact that it's incorrect for the black population as a whole, merely reflects the fact that their experience does not encompass the black population as a whole.

I think it was Bill Cosby who observed once that when he sees a black teenager coming toward him, he crosses to the other side of the street. He was responding to the same set of experiences whites respond to.

I repeat: that's not racism. That's correct inference from experience. There's nothing in that that needs to change.

I'd be interested in hearing how the white community looks to the average black. That, rather than general accusations about "institutional racism" (which are, frankly, Marxist crap), would be helpful dialog.

Inkling_Revival
Smart and daring post.

You asked: "I'd be interested in hearing how the white community looks to the average black."

I have grown up and worked with black people. I dated a black man for a few months, to the ironic horror of my liberal parents, and my best dearest friend in this universe is a christian black woman who also happens to be going to Hebrew school to learn of Judism and the origins of her Lord. I love her.

That being said, to use your words, my perception is based on my inference of experience. If I see anyone, regardless of color, dressed like a gang banger talking in ghetto-speak, my natural instinct based on my experience is to judge them in a negative light. I say regardless of color, because even white suburban children chose to act like black negative stereotypes as well.

These negative images bring on predictable behaviors which you mentioned: loud, rude, slow behind a counter, even dangerous.

It's all in the presentation. If you dress appropriately, act appropriately, then I will happen to think of you as a good person.

White people, IMHO, very much try not to have color cloud their perceptions. However, if you look like a gang banger, talk like a gang banger, chances are......

Unca Alby
"Many so-called "black sounding names" also happen to sound ignorant, or "ghetto""

Really!!! If anything is ignorant, it's what you have written above. What is a "Ghetto" name? Have you ever taken the time to look up the Etymology of so called "ghetto names? By your post I would think not.


"And if it's a Muslim name, then an employer is likely to think (a) potential terrorist, or (b) radical follower of Louis Farrakhan and/or other Black Muslims"


Well at least you admit the racist practices of many American companies.

"Even so, nowadays even blacks ridicule how names like "Sediki", "Loqueesha" or "Seniqua", that just sound so "ghetto"."

What black people are you talking about? Are you talking about the ones you hang out with? The Elders and Williams and Parkers of the world may do that, but the majority of blacks I know don't make fun of each others names.

"But employers often get hundreds of applications for a single job opening."

And!!!!

"They don't have time analyze the nitty gritty details of every candidate. "

So they discriminate against those who have ethnic (not ghetto) names?


“Generalizations, even bad ones, are absolutely necessary.”

And you obviously think this behavior is justified. Horrible post Unca Alby.

inkling_revival and other Th posters
"The blacks they see at the mall are insolent, loud, and rude. The blacks they see behind the counter move slowly, speak truculently, and don't seem to care much about them."


Wow!!! You guys just love bashing African Americans. It’s like a freakin sport with you TH types. Every column it's the same crap. Rarely do I ever read columns that speak positively of blacks, and rarely do I ever read positive post by Th poster about blacks. The only African Americans that Th posters like are those African Americans that criticize other African Americans. People like Parker, Williams and Sowell give you guys a forum to express your hate and bigotry towards blacks, because you clearly can't express these ignorant views in public

inkling_revival and other Th posters
"The blacks they see at the mall are insolent, loud, and rude. The blacks they see behind the counter move slowly, speak truculently, and don't seem to care much about them."


Wow!!! You guys just love bashing African Americans. It’s like a freakin sport with you TH types. Every column it's the same crap. Rarely do I ever read columns that speak positively of blacks, and rarely do I ever read positive post by Th poster about blacks. The only African Americans that Th posters like are those African Americans that criticize other African Americans. People like Parker, Williams and Sowell give you guys a forum to express your hate and bigotry towards blacks, because you clearly can't express these ignorant views in public.

Are you guys really
attempting to have a conversation with Mr. Thomas? Talk about a waste of time. Just to give the requisite explanation of same: read Inky's post in full, then Mr Thomas' then - just give it up.

Anthony Thomas -- take a chill pill
If you think "Loqueesha" etc. doesn't sound "ghetto", then you're living in fantasyland. High-sounding etymology has got nothing whatsoever to do with it.

"What black people are you talking about? Are you talking about the ones you hang out with? The Elders and Williams and Parkers of the world may do that,"

No, I'm talking about black comedians on BET and Comedy Central.


"but the majority of blacks I know don't make fun of each others names."

Remind me when your friends make for a valid statistical sampling.

Anthony Thomas and the usual pandering
A white man can't talk about blacks without being accused of racism.

I wrote of the experience of many whites who don't know any blacks personally, "The blacks they see at the mall are insolent, loud, and rude. The blacks they see behind the counter move slowly, speak truculently, and don't seem to care much about them."

And Anthony Thomas spews his racist trash (That's right, Anthony Thomas. YOU are a racist. YOU.) "Wow!!! You guys just love bashing African Americans. It’s like a freakin sport with you TH types..."

What's a "freakin' sport" with us "TH types" is telling the truth. In this case, we're speaking candidly about how white people experience black people. If the truth is too strong for you, you'd better go somewhere else.

I wasn't even describing my own experience, but you didn't notice that, did you? I even invited you to give your experience from your own perspective, but you didn't notice that, either, did you? You could have talked about how blacks notice white people tense up when they walk past them in the street. You could talked about how white shop owners immediately suspect black customers of theft. But instead, you had to spew your race hatred.

Anthony Thomas, you seriously need to see a counselor about your race-related anger. I'm not joking. You've got a serious problem, and it's tearing you apart.

I'm not changing a single word of what I wrote.

PeterE -- on Conversations
Mr. Thomas is not the only person who reads this.

For those interested in black names
I breezed over this very interesting bit of research last night, and offer it for whoever's following Anthony Thomas' screechfest in response to Unca Alby's post about black names.

http://econweb.fas.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/papers/qjec_vo l119_3.pdf

The paper documents, among other things, a pattern of names unique to the black community that actually predict socio-economic status for blacks born in the past two decades. Given this fact, and given the fact that employers have to skim most applications because of the sheer volume they receive, it's hardly surprising that they tend to discard run-of-the-mill applications from individuals whose name actually predicts lower educational achievement.

If that's what's going on -- and mind you, the paper doesn't establish that, that's a different study -- it's not necessarily about race, but rather about education. Employers need educated employees; a large number of their applicants aren't capable of doing the job because of failures in the education system.

I don't expect Anthony Thomas to read it, he's more interested in calling people "racist" than in actually understanding his world. But all his objections to Unca Alby's post are rebutted nicely by this paper.


inkling_revival
"I think it was Bill Cosby who observed once that when he sees a black teenager coming toward him, he crosses to the other side of the street."

He might have made that observation, but it's Jesse Jackson who is most ironically famous for it.

Unca Alby
"If you think "Loqueesha" etc. doesn't sound "ghetto", then you're living in fantasyland."

Well this is my problem with this sort of thing. One, I don't know many girls named "Loqueesha". Maybe Lakeisha, but not “Loqueesha".I think you might have gotten that from an episode of "Martin", kinda of like "Shenanaa". LOL.

Or maybe you got it from one of Bill Cosby's silly rants about black names. Like Cosby, I know many people white and black are ignorant to the fact that many African American names have cultural significance. But considering you, and many others may not know that there is a difference between "Loqueesha" and "Lakeisha", I don't expect you to know that? This is why asked you to define what a "ghetto" name was, and why I asked you if you had ever looked at the etymology of any African American names.

I'm sorry we all don't have Eurocentric names like "Bill", or even "Anthony" for that matter.

Second, why do African American names have to be an issue at all? Do blacks judge whites for the names that they have? Is every lunatic bomber or serial killer named Timothy or Jeffery? My guess would be no.

Also, many Jewish, Asians, Spanish, and Indians have ethnic names. Is this also an Achilles heal for them during the employment process? Or are those cultures exempt from this sort of idiotic cultural scrutiny?


Unca Alby p2
Third, I asked you who are the African Americans who criticize African American names, and you unbelievably say this:

"No, I'm talking about black comedians on BET and Comedy Central."

This is very problematic. I really urge you not to get your information about blacks from "Bet" and "Comedy Central". "Dave Chappelle" is not some sort of expert on culture, history, and race. He's a sometimes funny comedian. That's it.


See this is the thing, I really think SOME outside the African American community have a hard time recognizing the difference between FACT and exaggeration. Unfortunately, when this happens, the exaggeration sometimes becomes the fact.

inkling_revival, Are you serious?
First, I tried to open that link, didn't work. Maybe I don't have the correct version of Adobe Acrobat if it's that kind of file.


Second, this is one of the most (but not the most) bigoted things I have read on Townhall.com thus far:

"The paper documents, among other things, a pattern of names unique to the black community that actually predict socio-economic status for blacks born in the past two decades"

Are you serious????? Lmao. That's dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would love to see a list of these names! Lol. Why are we scrutinizing blacks like this? My girlfriend's name is Ayana (can you pronounce it?); maybe she should think about changing it to Sarah to get more employment opportunities.

Is there a list of names for poor white folks that live in the trailer parks? Do companies filter them in this absurd way? Do they filter anyone else? Why are people coming up ways to exclude blacks?

I hate to put forward these sort of cliché arguments, I really do. But you guys give me little choice with some of the absurdity you present.

Anthony Thomas - - Names
" I don't know many girls named "Loqueesha". "

Again, your circle of friends does not valid statistical sampling make. But there *is* more than one spelling.

"I know many people white and black are ignorant to the fact that many African American names have cultural significance."

Cultural and historical significance is irrelevant. Names have cultural inferences NOW. E.g., "Martha" is considered a good name for your aunt, but a bad name for your girl-friend.

They had another study (who pays for all these studies anyway?) where they took photographs of pretty ladies, and swapped their names around. They asked men to give the ladies scores based on which were prettier. When labeled with names like "Martha", or "Edna", etc., the ladies got lower scores. It didn't matter which lady got which name, the name all by itself cost her points.

I'm sure the name "Martha" is full of cultural and historical etymology. Makes no difference to what people think of the name NOW.


"I'm sorry we all don't have Eurocentric names like "Bill", or even "Anthony" for that matter."

That's Ok, it's not your fault. We can blame your parents for that one! ;-)

"Also, many Jewish, Asians, Spanish, and Indians have ethnic names. Is this also an Achilles heal for them during the employment process?"

In many cases, very probably.

This is why so many women authors (e.g., J.K. Rowling) will use their initials instead of their full names. Like it or not, there is a bias against female authors, and using initials disguises the gender.

Well, yes, Anthony Thomas
I had to laugh loud and long at the question, "Is there a list of names for poor white folks that live in the trailer parks?"

Are you kidding? There's a whole industry in making fun of white trailer park names. No one needs to do a study on the effects of being "Billy Bob" as opposed to "William Robert, Esq", or "Dreama," "Elvira," or "Jayneene" as opposed to "Katharine," "Anne," or "Elizabeth."

Try getting employment at a Wall Street investment firm if you go by the appellation "Joe-Dee" or "Marvelle."

Anthony Thomas - - - Funny Names again
"I really urge you not to get your information about blacks from "Bet" and "Comedy Central". "

Believe me, I don't. I happen to have very good sources of information, thank you very much.

However, it makes for a very good snapshot of what's going on. Other than a lot of them are way too disgusting for my taste anyway, which I know is not a large subset.

(I really miss comedians like Cosby who don't need to have every third word bleeped. Then on the other hand, Pryor stopped being funny after his accident and "found religion.")

"I really think SOME outside the African American community have a hard time recognizing the difference between FACT and exaggeration."

First off, your sentence makes perfect sense without the words "outside the African American community" in it.

It also flies in the face of everything else you've been trying to tell people, about how blacks are not "monolithic" in their thinking, and here you are talking about being "inside" or "outside" the "African American community."

At any rate, exaggeration makes truth funny. It's not funny at all without an element of truth.



I remember back in the day when all this "African Name" stuff started becoming popular, and an acquaintance of mine named her kid "Sediki" (which I've only recently learned how to spell). All of us went, "HUH?" It worked out well in this case though, because all the kid's friends call him "Deke". I'm sure that if he puts that on his employment applications, nobody will look twice at it.

Another lady I knew named her kid something I don't quite remember, but it was something weird like "Cabubu". Again, all of us went, "HUH?"

I shudder to think what THAT kid's friends called him!

Unca Alby
OK! Point taken.

Sorry if I was bit harsh. I do believe you are one of the more objective, and insightful posters on Townhall. The name thing just kinda of annoyed me.

I hope to see you on another thread that has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE. Because contray to popular opinion on Townhall, I do tire of talking about it. There are so many more interesting and yes important things (Healthcare,Iraq War, election 2008)to discuss that affect us all equally. (Don't tell Sharpton I said that, lol.) I really hope to discuss them in the future. But until then, have a good night.

Anthony Thomas - - Thanks
I appreciate the compliment!

culturalism-racism-and ignorance
it is unfortunate that blacks have not learned how to take advantage of being in this country as a whole and develop capitalist views and create their own institutions so that we can provide housing,jobs,medical care, and anything else that is needed without feeling like we are being discriminated against because we go to other races and ask for employment,medical help, education these people are not going to help the black race advance out of poverty, why should they. they brought us here to control us it was never intended for blacks to control anything
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