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Monday, October 29, 2007
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
ENDA, Obama and the cultural war
by Star Parker
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The House Democratic leadership delayed a planned vote this past week on ENDA, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2007. The bill, introduced by gay Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts, makes employment discrimination against homosexuals and bisexuals illegal.

One reason that momentum on moving the legislation has stalled is because lesbian Rep. Tammy Baldwin from Wisconsin wants a provision covering transsexuals and transgenders, originally in, then removed, put back in.

President Bush has indicated that, if passed, he will veto this legislation. And he should.

There are a good number of reasons offered by the administration, and by others, why this bill is constitutionally problematic.

But beyond the bill's many technical constitutional difficulties, it's worth considering it in the context of the ongoing cultural war taking place in this country.

Those pushing ENDA would have us believe that this is about making our country more just, fairer, more free. But is this really what is going on?

Consider the uproar of recent days among Sen. Barack Obama's gay constituency about his hiring of gospel singer Donny McClurkin to perform in Obama's campaign tour through South Carolina.

This is a critical state for the Illinois lawmaker, with a huge churchgoing black electorate.

What could be a better idea than headlining a Grammy-winning gospel singer to perform as part of his swing through the state?

The problem is that McClurkin not only preaches the gospel of the straight and traditional life, but he himself was once part of the gay lifestyle. He says that he was sexually abused as a child, which set him on the trajectory of homosexual behavior.

But through prayer and resolve, McClurkin changed. And he insists that anyone can change, as did he.

When word of the decision of the Obama campaign to employ McClurkin got out, Obama soon heard from Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest gay-rights organization.

According to press reports, Solmonese urged Obama to cancel McClurkin's appearance and subsequently expressed disappointment when this did not happen.

Now wait a second. Let's recap where we are.

We've got legislation moving through Congress, pushed by gay activists, that would make it illegal for an employer to not hire, or to fire, someone because of their sexual orientation. But the head of the nation's largest gay-activist organization asks Obama to fire a man because he is a Christian and an advocate of traditional values?

Freedom? Justice? Fairness? America?

What exactly has McClurkin done that justifies, in the eyes of Solmonese, that he be fired?

Did he ask that a gay be fired? Does he advocate that gays be persecuted? Does he advocate discrimination against gays? No. No. No.

He says that homosexuality is a problem -- yes, sinful -- and, perhaps worse, he suggests that individuals have choice and can change.

Choice, change, personal responsibility? In a free country? In the eyes of some, a crime.

Perhaps to add to the irony of it all, the name of Obama's gospel tour through South Carolina is "Embrace the Change."

Obama's milquetoast response to all this speaks, I think, to why his campaign has been fizzling. Rather taking an opportunity to lead, he's shown his preference for business-as-usual political pandering.

He added a gay black pastor to the tour to give the convocation, but has kept McClurkin on, despite issuing a statement that "I strongly disagree with Reverend McClurkin's views."

Obama's idea of inclusion -- being all things to all people -- amounts to being nothing to anyone. This is not leadership. Particularly when he lacks the courage to draw the connection between poverty and disease in the black community and wanton sexual behavior.

McClurkin's claim that individuals have sovereignty over their sexuality, rather than vice versa, is particularly dangerous to the gay-rights community. After all, the credibility of its whole case rests on the argument that this is not true.

The credibility of legislation, such as ENDA, also rests largely on the assumption that sexual behavior is as genetically determined as race.

But even more fundamentally, if we accept that we are slaves to our sexual impulses, then the "thou shalt not" prohibitions of the Bible become meaningless. If we are told to avoid behavior that is impossible to avoid, the Bible becomes a work of fiction and Christianity becomes a marginal lifestyle choice in our society.

This is what this is about. Not freedom, nor justice, nor fairness. But the displacement of one set of values with another and the wholesale politicization of our society.

Poor blacks are trying to crawl out of this hole. Let's not drag the rest of the country into it.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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Kill ENDA. NO ONE should have any more
rights than anyone else. It is that simple.

Gay activists like to claim that THEIR position is the same as civil rights. It is NOT. Blacks here in America fought long and hard for the SAME rights as Whites. All gays HAVE those rights. It is that simple.

And the inclusion of ANYONE who accepts ANY federal funds in this 'teaching' their version of equality is just plain wrong. Everyone has the right NOT to be brainwashed and/or FORCED to accept a position contrary to his religious views. (Except of course, that's the whole point of this bill - isn't it?)

Gays can change?
"...McClurkin changed. And he insists that anyone can change, as did he."

I've never been sure about people being able to "change" their sexuality. I have ALWAYS been sure that people can and SHOULD control their sexual behavior. If a man cannot channel all his sexual energy into a relationship with his wife, he should recognize that it would be BEST for him to abstain from all sexual practice.

It would be in HIS best interest and in SOCIETY's best interest if he would channel all that energy into helping his community in other ways that he could find fulfilling. In other words, when a man cannot be sexually attracted to a woman and is unable to fulfill the duties of a husband for a wife, he should remain celibate. It's happened throughout history; why not now?

What This Whole Flapdoodle Proves . . .
. . . the Obama flapdoodle, that is . . . is that the homosexual mafia has absolutely no tolerance whatosever for gays (or lesbians) who don't slavishly toe their radical-activist party line down to the last letter. Go ask Mark Foley. Or Larry Craig. Or Ted Haggart. Or, right now, Donny McClurkin. In short, the radical gay lobby is downright monolithic in their ideology, mindset and agenda.

After Iowa...
...do we get to stop pretending that Obama is anything more than a flash in the pan who got his shot because he is not unattractive and did a passable job delivering a standard liberal boilerplate speech somebody else wrote during the 2004 convention?

Do we get to do that? Come on, Iowa.

And do Democrats really want to be trying to pass legislation like this going into an election cycle? This strikes me as ill-advised. In 2004, even states that went to Kerry AND had gay rights initiatives on the ballots DEFEATED those ballots with margins wide enough to show that even Kerry voters opposed them.

tweaky
Have you ever heard the word "celibacy" from the mouth of a homosexual? To suggest this as a way of life would, I think, be taken as an insult... an outrageous interference in his/her rights.

Yes, it is an option, but not one most homosexuals want to even consider, IMO.

Homosexual activists attempt to force others to accept their way of life, while the great majority of heterosexuals are not on any warpath to make them change their sexual persuasions. Of course, homosexuals are a minority, ergo, they desperately want to be on an equal with the majority.

But the biggest obstacle they have to gaining this acceptance is their perverted sexual behavior. Not to be stopped, they have wormed their agenda into the classrooms, from elementary schools to high schools and beyond.

They are using and brainwashing our children, with the cooperation of the NEA, for one, to teach them to view "many kinds of families".

That is just my opinion.

Just remember....
even if the 'activists' got everything they demanded, they still wouldn't be happy because their whole purpose is to be activists. You can be a revolutionary when you have everything you have demanded. They would be out of a job.

Just laugh at them. They don't even realize they are their own worst enemy. Besides, last I checked, it was inappropriate to discuss your sexual behavior at a job interview. We already have laws that protect that. If I walked into a job interview and said what position I preferred, I wouldn't get the job on the basis of sexual harassment. Don't they have to follow the same (already existing) laws?

New information?
Is there any new compelling informtaion, not available 20 years ago, that now demands passage of this legislation?

I've
noted that someone said that the most popular biographies have been written about Abraham Lincoln, the most popular profession written about is doctors, and the most popular animal books are about horses. Therefore, a blockbuster would be titled: Abraham Lincoln's doctor's horse.
Similarly, if the Democratic party could just field a handicapped, gay, black, female, honorably discharged-but-now-against-the-military, atheist related to Kennedy, they'd have their dream candidate.
Long live the party of inclusion, excepting, of course, white males.

The Socialist Party
will eventually get their vote buying law passed, then it will be coupled with the Quota Law(affirmative action).
Next, your company recruter will be sent to a darkened building where he will interupt an orgy and fill the company Quota.
Loss of government contracts will be the penalty for not meeting their Quota.

I am beginning to believe this country is without hope.--- unless someone emerges as a leader & bring back the Country we once admired.

Ms. Parker should Realize...
We are all created equal, some of us just a little more so.....(my apologies to Pogo).

This is what the Left is all about. I hope the Black Community will begin to see this (i.e., the called for firing of gospel singer and preacher Donny McClurkin) and begin to leave the Dumocrat Plantation.

Obama's mess
Obama has created a quite a mess for himself.

I had never heard of McClurkin before all of this. He claims that he was molested at the age of eight. If that did happen, I would hope that the man is now serving time in jail. McClurkin also states that he is now an ex-gay. However, I have read some news accounts that say that he on the "down-low". I would not be surprised to learn that, that is the true case. Sprinkling a little holy water and praying to Jesus does not change your sexual orientation, anymore than it would change your skin color.

As for ENDA, the president said that he would not sign it. And, there are not enough votes to override the veto.







Bad column/ Bad decision by Obama
Like many Th columnist, Ms Parker distorts a situation to promote her own political and religious beliefs. The gay leadership in South Carolina had every right to ask Sen. Obama to remove Mr. McClurkin from this event. This had nothing to do with Gays trying to silence non gays, but more to do with McClurkin and his beliefs, and how they completely contradict Obama's campaign and message. McClurkin has called homosexuality a "gay curse" and that it is a sin. He represents intolerance and exclusion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42982-2004Au g28.html

It's like Obama asking David Duke to speak at a political rally for African Americans. Honestly it's just stupid!

Obama's campaign is supposed to be one of inclusion and tolerance, and that's not what McClurkin represents. Why Mr. Obama would invite this bigot (yes I said it) to perform is beyond comprehension.

Never-ending
It is never-ending on the Townhall website with the hostility toward the GLBT community. Kevin McCullough, Star Parker, Henry R. Jackson and others get on their pulpits and peach about their interputation of the Bible is the only "correct" way to God.

As I have said before if homosexuality is determined to be caused by a gene or set of genes, I expect that Conservative Christians would be lined up at their doctors office getting the test. And, if it was positive, the next stop would be the abortionist. And, I would imagine that quite a few liberals would doing the same thing.

Profblog
You had me cracking up about the dream Democratic candidate! The only thing you left out was that they should also write for either HuffPo or MoveOn...that would clinch it!

As for Anthony Thomas: You miss the point in trying to go after Star Parker here. Donnie McClurkin's views have been known for a long time, so if Obama had a problem with them, he should not have hired him on. His struggles and his views about changing homosexual behavior were no secret, and I am sure that Barak knew them too; but just like Star said, he chose to try to accomodate everyone instead of taking a real stand one way or the other. That is NOT how you lead, and if Barak disagrees wtih Mr. McClurkin, he should be more than willing to disassociate himself from the minister. And why do you go to the usual liberal tactic of calling people names that you don't disagree with, yet have no qualms about bending into a pretzel to defend actions by Obama that you would not defend in anyone else? Is it because you are a hypocrite, (there, I said it)?

And for all of the libeals complaining that TH is not the bastion of homosexual pride or acceptance: Why are you here? You know that the vast majority of posters at this site do not condone or promote the homosexual lifestyle, so why keep coming here? Why don't you hang out at DemU, or Kos, or HuffPo to be among the likeminded?

swampfox
it's because we don't buy into your crap. we believe differently and we support our beliefs. isn't that what your doing. but you deny us that right. typical homo-activist poo-poo from you.

John Edwards says:
If he's elected president, he'll institute a New Deal-like suite of programs to fight poverty and stem growing wealth disparity. To do it, he said, he'll ask many Americans to make sacrifices, like paying higher taxes.

Edwards, a former Democratic senator from North Carolina, says the federal government should underwrite universal pre-kindergarten, create matching savings accounts for low-income people, mandate a minimum wage of $9.50 and provide a million new Section 8 housing vouchers for the poor. He also pledged to start a government-funded public higher education program called "College for Everyone."

Be afraid, Be very afraid. Talk about government control. This is notebook democrat. The elitist view that humans are incapable of taking care of themselves and therefore need to put them in office.


To truthseeker
Truthseeker writes, "it's because we don't buy into your crap. we believe differently and we support our beliefs. isn't that what your doing. but you deny us that right. typical homo-activist poo-poo from you."

I guess your definition of a homo-activist is anyone who stands up and says that I gay. I have recently come-out to my family. It has been difficult

I am a Republican and live in South Carolina. I will probably be voting for either Guilliani or F. Thompson.

I am an Episcopalian. I was raised in that church. And, thankfully, it has much more liberal view of homosexuality than the evangelicals.

Label Everyone?
Obama's problem is an indicator of where our society is heading. Instead of preventing discrimination, EDNA, and related "hate crime" laws are shoving people into individual boxes so each of us can be "classified".
My teaching cerificate lists all the subjects I am considered qualified to teach. It seems the Human Rights Campaign wants to be able to "certify" each of us based on the HRC view of how society should operate.
That is not freedom. Civil Rights for all. Special Rights for no one.

You aren't going to be happy
There are no major candidates that I would consider anti-gay. I would not even put Bush into that category.

Swampfox
Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions, but not their own facts. The bible clearly states that through the curse of Adam and Eve, we are all born with a pre-disposition toward sin. Just because I was born with a certain pre-disposition does not mean that it no longer is sin when I engage in those acts. As an adult I can make choices to indulge my sinful nature, or I can deny those urges and attempt to live according to God's plan. But make no mistake, it is a choice of the free God has given us. And He will not be mocked.

the agENDA behind ENDA
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the agENDA that is in place with forcing ENDA down our throats. I would question that there remains a right for existing employees to have a say in not being exposed to "hiring decisions" that might result in an "hostile work environment"! Constraining who can be hired, or who can be fired establishes a system of discriminatory preferences. Personally, IMOH, employers should have the right to choose from a pool of legal, qualified candidates based on the subjective working environment already in place. It makes no sense to force an employer, particularly small employers, to accept hiring preferences or subject employers to retention policies that are not genuinely business oriented.

For Anthony Thomas
"It's like Obama asking David Duke to speak at a political rally for African Americans. Honestly it's just stupid!"

Your analogy is incorrect. It would only be correct if the event was being held primarily to gain support from gays. But it wasn't. The object was to recruit Christian blacks.

Maybe Obama wouldn't make blunders like this if he wasn't a knee-jerk bigot like the rest of the Democrats. Democrats instinctively insist that only a black preacher can convince black Christians to vote for Obama; only a gay preacher can convince gays that it's OK that Obama is supported by Christian black preacher who opposes homosexuality; that only a woman can give a candidate credibility with other women.

How much more effective, not to mention HONEST, would Obama's campaign be if Obama would just take the podium and speak for HIMSELF? Tell Christian blacks in South Carolina who he is, what he believes, and why this would benefit this group of voters, instead of playing Democrat ethno-religious bigoted politics and assuming (1) what these people want to hear and (2) that they all want to hear the same thing.

How many more people would vote for Obama if they knew that it was OK for people voting for him disagree about some things (you know, the whole political "diversity" thing).

OBAMA FOR US OR THEM???
It has become totaly clear that Obama is floundering around playing both sides against the middle, trying to get votes no matter where they come from. He clearly has no moral values that from his very sole, he is deeply committed to. He is refusing to say which side of the fence he is on. This shows what kind of leader he would be when faced with the enemy who is out to kill us. Would he help us or them?
Our country is in need of a strong leader who knows himself, what he stands for and knows how to work through the major problems that we are going through. Gays take up less than 5% of the countrys population. He should just ignor them, or politely put them in their place and move on to the major issues that the country is truly concerned about.

Swampfox
And if ti were somehow possible to prove conclusively that homosexuality were not genetic, what would you do with your time? You spend all your energy bashing people on TH who do not buy into the gay gene theory, what would you do if it were ever disproved?

Sorry, but I have enough friends on all points of the sexual spectrum to believe that, though there may be a genetic component, one's sexual orientation is largely a mater of choice. And, even if you were 100% right, and we are programmed with an entire ready-made sexuality, so what? Behavior is still a matter of choice. Just because I am heterosexual does not mean I go around raping every attractive woman I see, I control my heterosexual urges and remain faithful to my wife. Similarly, gay or not, if you believe homosexual practices are sinful, then why shouldn't a man, even one programmed to be gay as you claim, choose not to act on those urges?

You seem to argue, "it is genetic, so it is morally neutral". Sorry, but greed seems to be part of man's make up, but stealing is still immoral. So, there is no reason to argue genetics to say homosexuality is or isn't sinful.

To Frog
Frog writes, "Everyone has a right to his/her own opinions, but not their own facts."

I would suggest that Google "Gay Christians". Then begin to read.

How Ironic
Open Minded, Diversity Sensitive, Inclusive, Tolerant, Liberals want Osama Obama to fire someone who is DIFFERENT! Liberal Morons Run Amok :)!

THE ENDA OBAMA
It has become totaly clear that Obama is floundering around playing both sides against the middle, trying to get votes no matter where they come from. He clearly has no moral values that from his very sole, he is deeply committed to. He is refusing to say which side of the fence he is on. This shows what kind of leader he would be when faced with the enemy who is out to kill us. Would he help us or them?
Our country is in need of a strong leader who knows himself, what he stands for and knows how to work through the major problems that we are going through. Gays take up less than 5% of the total countrys population. He should just ignor them, or politely put them in their place and move on to the major issues that the country is truly concerned about.
Color him gone. I wouldn't waste my vote on a lizard who changes their color to blend in just to get the votes.

To Andrews
I don't know if it is genetic or a biological switch that was turned on at an early, early time in my life. I can change it no more than you can choose to be gay. I think every teenager who discovers that they are homosexual is terrified at first. In my day in a small southern town there was no one to turn to.

Yes, I could choose to have a chaste life. I could be promiscuous, like some heterosexuals or I could live a fairly monogamous lifestyle ........... or I could just commit suicide.

I choose to be chaste and quite, for far too long. I broke my silence this year, but only after my self-imposed silence put me in the mental hospital for 17 days, after playing Russian roulette for five days. Of course, I did cheat during those five days. I still have not put back on the twenty pounds that I lost before I went in the hospital.

If you can read between the lines I am still chaste.

Also, I am a college graduate with a degree in history and a CPA.

swampfox
What is your take: Should obama fired the guy to show that he,obama, is not anti-gay. Obama is not anti-gay.

It is not for me to tell you, some people live a chaste life and do well with it;
some priests, and monks who retire from a stimulating world

but i hope you are not being chaste for fear

In addition, this whole business of homsexuality is very complex; there is a continuum rather something that is fixed

I would not rule that one can change; it might be very difficult that someone training for the olympics; that is total devotion to it; i dont know

There is less impetus for that now with normalization of homosexuality

swampfox
What is your take: Should obama fired the guy to show that he,obama, is not anti-gay. Obama is not anti-gay.

It is not for me to tell you, some people live a chaste life and do well with it;
some priests, and monks who retire from a stimulating world

but i hope you are not being chaste for fear

In addition, this whole business of homsexuality is very complex; there is a continuum rather something that is fixed

I would not rule that one can change; it might be very difficult that someone training for the olympics; that is total devotion to it; i dont know

There is less impetus for that now with normalization of homosexuality

swampfox
you indicated the singer might be down low; hence, really gay;

that is mistake of categorizing someone on the basis of a cross section of what he does

one can be many things at different times;

one could can be good husband and have mistress

one can be successfully married and have homosexual affairs or down laws.

a wife or husband who masturbates while in a succeful sexual relationship

is not called a masturbator or a down low masturbator

we have this tendency to label people by some aspects of their lives when life is much more complicated

To len
Should Obama have fired the guy? I never heard of him before all of this. If he has a virulent anti-gay message, I think that he should not be hired as a singer for Obama. As for him still being gay, that is what some are saying.

Right now, I guess that I am just trying to deal with my own ingrained self-hatred and shame about being gay. Something that I should dealt with a long time ago. Just read the posts of some of the people on this board.

I have a first cousin who married a successful lawyer, who was divorced. It turned out that he was gay. She was devastated. In my opinion he is scum.

I have asked my psychiatrist how many gay/lesbian teenagers committed suicide. He answered, we just don't know. Many teenagers just don't leave suicide notes.

Again, as for Obama, he is not ready for prime time, yet. This year it will be Hillary for the Democrats and Guilliana for the Republicans.




To len
We have some gays in the family who have dealt with it better than myself. They accepted it. One is a first cousin to my father, she is a retired college president. Another is my sister's brother-in-law, a rock singer for a band whose name you probably know.

swampfox
i would pay any attention to some who post here with viurlent anti gay;

they are cowards and anonymous and dont what they are talking about; bullies in on anonymous TH

on the other hand there is also this bullying on part of activist gay community which i find anti-libertarian


if someone at a concert says, once i was a practing jew; then i found christ;
there would be a howl; why, if he ranted on this for an hour it would be a pain because i came to a concert; and so if someone said, i lived the gay life style and now have changed; it is possible; anything is possible;
why such offense; too much pcism






swampfox
i am very secure in myself; hence, i am not bothered by those who have different opinions or would criticize me;

however, if one lives in a community where everyone knows you and you violate the social norms; then one would feel isolated; the cure is go to the city where is a multiplicity of life styles and less judgementalism and actual of acceptance of you as a person regardless of sexual preferences.

To len
It is my belief and experience that someone can't change their sexuality. Of course, there are bisexuals.

What would one of these posters do if their child came to them, and said, Mom and Dad, I am gay.

Swampfox
I left you an answer on Jackson's column.

Quick
Pecola Breedlove strikes again. I have some questions:

1. Why would President Bush veto ENDA?? How does any sane, tolerant person have a problem with this legislation??

2. What is the "gay lifestyle"???? Is there a "straight lifestyle"??? Does Pecola mean orientation???

3. If I am not mistaken, Donnie is not "straight" nor "heterosexual" correct??? He is simply celibate right???

4. Why is homosexuality sinful? Can someone really change from straight to gay???

5. When did the Bible dictate every action/policy of America?

6. When did the Bible become perfect, not free from any sort of error/contradiction? What sets the Bible above othetr sacred holy texts throughout human history????

7.When has Jesus Christ and his teachings not been marginalized by socieities???

8. Why does Star Parker always mention African American poor people as if they are the Plague????

My Two Cents
As an American I would be deeply offended if an employer refused to hire, or fired, an employee because that employee was gay. And it doesn't matter to me whether homosexuality is inborn or learned: I don't care. But I have known many gay people who did exemplary work and I want workers to be judged on that and nothing else. I am thinking of: owners and managers of a prominent bookstore in my town; a research professor where I was in graduate school; a friend who works in the production part of a performance company; a chemist; a physician; a stockbroker; a second-grade teacher; a chiropractor; a clinical psychologist; two lawyers; a social worker; many Intensive Care nurses. All openly gay. All very excellent and high-functioning professionals. I can scarcely think of anything more provincial and STUPID than considering their sexual orientation as an aspect of employability.

I must've missed something
I can't recall ever hearing that it was a good idea to put your sexual orientation on your resume. I can't see that it would come up in a job interview either.

For that matter, I can't envision it being a part of ordinary conversation at work, unless you go out of your way to make it so. If for some reason you might imagine other people would be interested in hearing about it.

See, what I've just outlined is the Department of Defense's policy on homosexuality. Who needs ENDA when you could just as easily assume that A)Nobody wants to hear about it, and B)It's your business ONLY, unless you feel some need to share it.

Okay
Maybe I was being just a BIT facetious there, but wouldn't it be great if people didn't feel the need to share with us their lifestyle choices?

You can keep it to yourself.

Well, unless you are THIS guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT4XO3Hjp7M

Just...wow. That's just about all I can say.

Wow.

And....................
What is your objection to the video? I guess that you find it funny, as I do.......to some extent. Now when you wake up tomorrow, never mention anything about your love life, ever again. I don't want to hear word one. Keep it all to yourself.

How can I object to the video
When I'm the guy who posted it here? I think it is hilarious.

And I am NOT in the habit of discussing my love life with strangers. I don't know why they would want to hear about it.

I also don't discuss hang nails or post nasal drip. Halitosis. Ear wax.

There was a time when people didn't feel the need to share intimate details with people they weren't BEING intimate with. You call THIS an improvement?

Swampfox - right on
I'm dead set against the bill which Bush has threatened to veto but that's got nothing to do with intolerance. To the contrary, let me say that I have enjoyed and found your comments interesting and hope that they might resonate with others.

You are what you are, just as you said and that's just the way that it is, enough said. And I'm 100% in line with AudiR10's comments about the whole job thing, it matters little to me what your preferences are, the only thing that matters is that you can pull your own weight on the job. But I'm against any preferential treatment for anyone, notwithstanding the civil rights act which, as a genuine certifiable visible minority, I rejected from the day it was first spoken of. I think the bandwagon's springs have been stretched to their absolute limits.

You deserve all that you can achieve and more power to you for learning to play the cards you were dealt. That's what I had to do but I got it done before JFK and LBJ bought votes with their CRA 1964. At least I know that my level of success belongs to me and not a free pass from Uncle Sam. And so it should be with you.

You cannot legislate acceptance, you earn it. And I think that your attitude shows that you're on the right course and there's lots of folks like me that are cheering for you.

To pjal
Pjal writes, "You cannot legislate acceptance, you earn it." You are right. And, I am still coming to deal with my sexuality after being silent for far, far too long. Being silent has affected my mental health, almost to the point of suicide. One thing I have not told on this board is that I have not discussed my homosexuality to another person who has gone through the same thing.

To pjal
Pjal writes, "You cannot legislate acceptance, you earn it." You are right. And, I am still coming to deal with my sexuality after being silent for far, far too long. Being silent has affected my mental health, almost to the point of suicide. One thing I have not told on this board is that I have not discussed my homosexuality to another person who has gone through the same thing.

Swampfox,
I have a question concerning the Episcopalian church. I am serious and not being mean or sarcastic. The Bible is very clear concerning the sinfulness of homosexuality. God called it an abomination. How do the Episcopalians get past that? I consider myself tolerant of homosexuals and I've worked with and known them for many years. Many are genuinely nice and decent people and it's their choice about their sexual choices. Where I have to veer off and oppose them is that
1. It is sinful according to God's Word. Most of us instinctively know this as homosexuality seems totally alien and unnatural. Homosexuals deny that it is wrong; a clear contradiction to the Bible and common sense.
2. Homosexuals are attempting to normalize their behavior by force with the passing of laws that penalize anyone who speaks out about it.
3. Homosexuals are forcing their way into schools and teaching this behavior to young children. Shameless.
4. Many homosexuals are intolerant of any criticism of their lifestyle. Most of us ARE tolerant but gays have the opinion that any criticism is intolerant and hateful. What gays really want seems to be everyone's approval.

It is bringing homosexuality into the public square and then forcing it (by law) that is the real problem people have with homosexuality.

CT
CT writes: Monday, October, 29, 2007 11:27 PM
Swampfox,
I have a question concerning the Episcopalian church. I am serious and not being mean or sarcastic. The Bible is very clear concerning the sinfulness of homosexuality. God called it an abomination. How do the Episcopalians get past that? I consider myself tolerant of homosexuals and I've worked with and known them for many years. Many are genuinely nice and decent people and it's their choice about their sexual choices. Where I have to veer off and oppose them is that
1. It is sinful according to God's Word. Most of us instinctively know this as homosexuality seems totally alien and unnatural. Homosexuals deny that it is wrong; a clear contradiction to the Bible and common sense.
2. Homosexuals are attempting to normalize their behavior by force with the passing of laws that penalize anyone who speaks out about it.
3. Homosexuals are forcing their way into schools and teaching this behavior to young children. Shameless.
4. Many homosexuals are intolerant of any criticism of their lifestyle. Most of us ARE tolerant but gays have the opinion that any criticism is intolerant and hateful. What gays really want seems to be everyone's approval.

It is bringing homosexuality into the public square and then forcing it (by law) that is the real problem people have with homosexuality.

Foxfire:

I feel the same way. I've been trying to voice that same opinion and have been tagged as a hater of gays.

What you say is the absolute truth.

Anthony, you are contriving and it shows
Anthony Thomas writes: Monday, October, 29, 2007 9:42 AM
Bad column/ Bad decision by Obama
Like many Th columnist, Ms Parker distorts a situation to promote her own political and religious beliefs. The gay leadership in South Carolina had every right to ask Sen. Obama to remove Mr. McClurkin from this event. This had nothing to do with Gays trying to silence non gays, but more to do with McClurkin and his beliefs, and how they completely contradict Obama's campaign and message. McClurkin has called homosexuality a "gay curse" and that it is a sin. He represents intolerance and exclusion.
____________________________________________

Yes, yes, yes, certainly: the South Carolina homosexual leadership only wanted Obama to fire McClurkin because McClurkin's ideas completely contradict Obama's campaign and message. Yes, of course. Not because the South Carolina homosexuals do not want to hear that if homosexuals accept Jesus they can leave their life of sadness and disease. No, not for that reason. Yes, Obama is TOLERANCE! INCLUSION! Tolerance of the misuse of human genitals! Inclusion of those who misuse their genitals and spread disease! There! It's clear, doggone it!

Swamp, your whining is never-ending
Swampfox writes: Monday, October, 29, 2007 9:53 AM
Never-ending
It is never-ending on the Townhall website with the hostility toward the GLBT community.
________________________________________________

Swamp, your whining about 'hostility,' 'hate,' etc, etc, etc, is never-ending. Tiring.

Exactly why is my complaining about your spreading disease, proselytizing children, public perversions 'hostility' or 'hate'?

Will we continue to be free?
In a truly free country any employer can hire or refuse to hire anyone for any reason whatsoever. I have been discriminated against in hiring several times because I'm a Christian, and those people have a perfect right to do so. The government has no right to force employers to hire me in spite of the fact that they think I will be a poor employee because of my faith or simply because they hate Christians in general or me in particular for no legitimate reason.

On the other hand, if I own a Christian business, the government also has no intrinsic right in a free nation to force me to hire homosexuals who are against all that my business stands for in terms of operating on biblical principles. A government that forces me to hire homosexuals or representatives of any other group is a form of dictatorship and I would have become a form of slave. If this legislation or anything remotely like it is ever passed, that will be our situation exactly, and the statist dream of a liberal American dictatorship will have finally materialized big time.

To Swampfox, re: TWO of your posts
Swampfox writes: Monday, October, 29, 2007 5:30 PM
To len
"Right now, I guess that I am just trying to deal with my own ingrained self-hatred and shame about being gay. Something that I should dealt with a long time ago. Just read the posts of some of the people on this board.

I have asked my psychiatrist how many gay/lesbian teenagers committed suicide. He answered, we just don't know. Many teenagers just don't leave suicide notes."


Swampfox writes: Monday, October, 29, 2007 6:54 PM
To len
It is my belief and experience that someone can't change their sexuality. Of course, there are bisexuals.

What would one of these posters do if their child came to them, and said, Mom and Dad, I am gay.



Swampfox,
Why is it that I get the impression that you're caving in to how other people say you should feel or think about yourself because you're gay?
IGNORE the posts of those here who keep telling you that you're wrong for standing up for yourself.
ESPECIALLY IGNORE those who tell you that God or the Bible proclaim that you're a sinner and are basically going to hell if you don't change.

THEY HAVE NO MORE RIGHT TO JUDGE YOU THAN A BRICK WALL DOES. They are entitled to their opinions, but who gives a ratsass about their opinions.
DON'T let THEIR opinions determine the course of YOUR life.

IF ONE of us commits suicide, and sadly many more than one has, it is one too many.

But I have things I'd like to discuss with you in a private conversation where the people here on Townhall can not read them, so if you'd like I'll give you my email address in a future message and I hope that you'll use it in the near future.
DON'T worry, I'm not going to attempt to find out who or where you are beyond what you've admitted to here, or to set up a private meeting. I just want a private conversation.

Another Gay Conservative
I would like to have such a conversation via the internet. And, keep my anominity. I am no where near the point I was back in June 7th of this year when my brother and sister had to take me to see a psychiatrist who had me in the hospital within hours. It was a simple diagnosis of major depression.

Swampfox, Then I can't make my point
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 30, 2007 6:47 AM
Another Gay Conservative
I would like to have such a conversation via the internet. And, keep my anominity. I am no where near the point I was back in June 7th of this year when my brother and sister had to take me to see a psychiatrist who had me in the hospital within hours. It was a simple diagnosis of major depression.


Swampfox,
I realize from what you've said in a few threads you've been posting in lately that your condition has improved greatly. You revealed to me how bad off you were back then in a post about a month ago.
I had/have a few things that I wanted to both ask and tell you that I can't do if I am using my regular screen name. This isn't it.

Since there are some people on this board that would cause me a great deal of trouble if I was using my regular ID and talked to you about the things I want to discuss, I made up this second ID.
But to effectively say those things I need to say, I would have to be using my regular screen name so that you'd know who I really am. I can't do that in open forums for the reason stated above, so I guess we can't have that conversation.
As I said, there is no ulterior motive behind my request for an email exchange. Just the need to protect my real ID.

To Another Gay Conservative
We can probably use this thread to have a discussion. Most of them have now moved on. You don't have to use your real name and I don't either. If you have a better idea, I am open to discussions.

How long have you been out to family and friends?

Swampfox
Your comments made my heart hurt a little. I don't know you, but I am sad that you would hate yourself over coming out. One of the reasons I can never go along 100% with the conservative platform (the other is abortion, and before anyone calls me a RINO, I generally vote libertarian) is the view of gays. Like the abortion debate, it's filled with distortions and exaggerations on both sides of the fence.

At my last job, although I'm a female who's married to a male, I was very involved with an employee network for the GLBT community. You didn't have to be G, L, B, or T to join, just supportive of the vision and values. Because of this, I met a number of brilliant and dynamic people in my company, from across the US, and was able to travel to the Out & Equal Advocates for Workplace Equality convention in 2005, which was pretty much the high point of my employment with that company.

One of the things I discussed via email with the other members of the national leadership team that I belonged to in this network was the issue of what can we do to save GLBT teens, because their suicide/homeless/runaway/THROWaway rates are so high? I even wondered if there was a specific program or organization to help connect these kids (in many cases kicked out by their families) with foster homes who'd be willing to open their homes and hearts to GLBT teens. Another member of the network told me of one such organization, but it was geographically too far away for me to seriously consider contacting them.

Anyway, I'm going on too long about this, but I wanted to let you know that if you need someone to talk to who'll be sympathetic, I'd love to be a friend to you. You seem bright and articulate and I don't want to see the life of one more gay young person go down the tubes.

To Noelogy
Noelogy, I am middle-aged. I should have settled this a long time ago. I am working on it. I have a small support group, but I am afraid that I am wearing them out.

Sorry it took so long to answer
Swampfox writes: Tuesday, October, 30, 2007 8:59 AM
To Another Gay Conservative
We can probably use this thread to have a discussion. Most of them have now moved on. You don't have to use your real name and I don't either. If you have a better idea, I am open to discussions.

How long have you been out to family and friends?


But this is the soonest I could.
Yes, it does appear that a lot of the people have moved on fron this thread, so I'll be able to get sort of specific, but not very.

It also appears, from your answer to Noelogy that you are considerably older than I thought, and also than I am.
Although I don't know your age in years and can't give mine, but let's just say that I'm between 18-25.
I have been out to my family and friends since I was 14. And although I was more or less "outed" by my boyfriends brother after he caught us in the act, the revelation was no surprise to my parents or his.
They didn't ask about it, but they'd already figured it out a couple months before that and had been dropping a lot of hints that they knew but we were too scared to pick up on them so we pretended not to see them.
When it all came out in the open we found out that they'd known and that although they weren't happy about it, they were solidly behind us.
We did, however, lose several long time friends who just couldn't deal withg it.
We also had a friend who was gay that couldn't deal with it so he took the cowardly way out. Like you almost did.

Anyhow, you mentioned wanting to work for a certain employer a while back but were afraid a certain part of your life would stop you.
All I can say is I have a great life now in what may be a career position if things go right. I'm out to everyone except my employer(s)and co-workers. I never have been open about it because they can't/don't ask about it. And I don't tell many people, certainly not my employer(s), about my private life anyhow. It's none of their business.

To Another Gay Conservative
Another Conservative Gay writes, "We also had a friend who was gay that couldn't deal with it so he took the cowardly way out. Like you almost did." The hurt that goes along with being homosexual can be overwhelming. I would not say it was the cowardly way out. However, too many who find that we are gay/lesbian at least consider the option. I just remained silent and celibate for far, far too long. And, then I snapped. The hurt inside of me threw me into a bout of major depression. If you would, Google "major depression". I had ALL the symptoms. I hope that you can find a happy, full life.

Swampfox: the offer still stands
I apologize. I'm not sure where I got the idea that you were a teenager.

To Noelegy
No need to apologize.

who is Parker to judge?
I don't know why heterosexuals continue to insist that 'gay people can change.' And clearly don't know how to associate a gay person's orientation with their own.
Nobody seems to have the courage to even THINK what it would take to make a hetero person gay.
Imagine what it would take...and you have your own answer and then the stupidity in arguing with a gay person wouldn't continue.
Donnie McClurkin (and I own several of his CD's) did not change.
He's not active. That's all.
And each one of you knows that if you were celibate the rest of YOUR lives, that wouldn't change YOUR orientation, would it?

Here's what I REALLY don't understand. Why do straight people want to compete romantically with gay people?
How many straight men and women ended up feeling all kinds of fool for not only thinking they could 'turn' someone, but how hurt and betrayed they felt when they were left by a gay spouse?
And yet, society insists they keep doing the same set up over and over again.
There is NO compelling reason for a gay person TO change. There is NO compelling reason for a gay person to marry heterosexually.
Now, it makes more sense for a gay person to be with another gay person.
Donnie McClurkin is an example of a person damaged by expectations for gay people from the outside, and not for himself.
He's going around speaking for a community he's not entitled to speak for. He's got an identity problem, and assumes ALL gay people do.
Not so.


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