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Monday, September 10, 2007
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Liberals love the sin and hate the sinner
by Star Parker
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Coverage by the mainstream media of the Larry Craig scandal confirms again that liberals love the sin and hate the sinner. They've got both the Idaho senator and the conservative values that he has supported in their crosshairs.

Perhaps it's relevant to take a moment and recall that the need for biblical guidance comes from the proclivity to sin. You don't need a map if you're hardwired to know where you're going.

But, for those on the left, a map isn't necessary because it doesn't matter where we are going. For them, a man going astray is proof that having a destination, and rules for getting there, is hypocrisy. The problem is not the fallen man but having rules to begin with.

Typical is Newsweek's Jonathan Alter, who writes with ironic sanctimony about GOP claims to moral superiority. Alter can hardly contain his glee at the prospect that the Craig scandal will undermine the family-values agenda of conservative Republicans. He goes on, with great haste, to write its obituary.

"In the long term, though, the end of the family-values agenda may be a blessing in disguise for the GOP. It has tied its fortunes too closely to evangelical Christians ..."

But what does Craig's personal behavior have to do with the validity and relevance of traditional values?

Might we recall a basic rule of logic that points to the fallacy of the ad hominem argument? The issue is the substance and truth of the argument and not the person making it.

Let's consider the relevance of traditional values as a practical matter and see where the most damaging hypocrisy lies.

Democratic politicians, who now are quietly luxuriating in the Craig scandal and Republican Party woes, will tell us that what they're about is fairness, income gaps, two Americas and the poor.

Now suppose that the family values that they are so anxious to usher out the door are key to addressing these very issues that Democrats claim to be their concern.

In fact, they are.

The Census Bureau has just released its latest data on poverty in America. The intimate connection between family structure and poverty is undeniable.

Five percent of homes headed by married couples are poor. Over 35 percent of homes, seven times as many, headed by single mothers are poor.

Data, as reported by Douglas Besharov of the American Enterprise Institute, show that, in 2005, the average income for all American families with children under age 18 was $56,793. For those households headed by a married couple, the average income was $71,010. For those households headed by single women, the average income was $26,705.

The most healthy and prosperous American families are those in which traditional values are intact.

In an article in the latest issue of Commentary Magazine, Lawrence Mead, a professor of politics at New York University and author of seven books on poverty and welfare reform, surveys thinking over the last 50 years about the causes of poverty and concludes:

"Although impediments to working may still affect some people, poverty is overwhelmingly a result of dysfunctional patterns of life. Families are poor in America in 2007 typically because unmarried parents have children and then do not work regularly to support them. ... It has become difficult to avoid the conclusion that serious poverty in America is rooted in the culture of the poor."

It's not news that poverty is disproportionately high among blacks. At 25 percent, the incidence of black poverty is double the national average.

Corresponding with this are disproportionately high black out-of-wedlock births and homes headed by single women.

When Daniel Moynihan wrote his famous report in 1965 identifying the warning signs of the breakdown of the black family, black out-of-wedlock births were a third of what they are today.

Do family values matter? You bet they do.

They may be a matter of principle for conservative Republicans. But they are a matter of life and death to America's poor and particularly to America's poor blacks.

Whatever Larry Craig was doing in a men's room in the Minneapolis airport has little to do with the relevance of these truths and their importance in our country today.

Democrats and the left may enjoy exploiting Craig's misfortunes and using this incident to try and undermine the traditional-values agenda that he supported for 20 years in the U.S. Senate.

But by so doing, they hurt this country and the very communities that they claim to want to help. So, then, where does the most damaging hypocrisy really lie?

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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Excellent bait and switch
No Star, but good try. Craig's hypocrisy is reviled because he blasted the so-called immorality of gays every chance he got, despite being gay himself. Gays have nothing against two-parents families; in fact, they simply want to make sure their families are legally protected.

This Star has the
intellect of Star Jones.

It's more "abortion causes crime" logic.

(un)learned hand
Star's column is one of her best. Right on, and unarguable.

You, sir, are the one practicing the bait and switch technique. First of all, Larry Craig is not gay. You have absolutely no proof of that, other than the innuendo occasioned by the misdemeanor charge that he pled guilty to. But lack of support for an argument never stopped a liberal from asserting ridiculous claims.

Secondly, Larry Craig never wrote an article, made a speech, gave a press conference, or anything of the kind, wherein he "blasted" gays. That is total b.s. for you to claim such absurd nonsense. His voting record, no doubt, is what you're using to make these wild assertions. But how Mr. Craig voted was simply common sense - supporting marriage and family, the most basic pillar of any civilization, is the logical thing to do. Which is why liberals don't understand it - it's too logical for their distorted ways of thinking.

Thirdly, gays already have protection. They already have rights. Those rights are called "human" rights, and neither Mr. Craig nor any other conservative has voted to take them away from any group of people.

Anyway, now that I've sufficiently nuked all of your sophistry.....would you like to discuss the actual column? No wait....that won't do. Liberals hate staying on the subject as much as they hate the sinner.

alpha town d d
Speaking of logic, have you ever tried applying any? Your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Star's arguments regarding poverty are irrefutable, and backed up by strong statistical data, in support of which she quoted several sources.

I suggest you trying using some support for your arguments.... that is, after you learn to communicate better. However, let me warn you that it's impossible to back up nonsense with logic, so you might have a bit of a problem on your hands.

The problem is, that when you challenge a liberal to back up their arguments, they will invariably either change the subject, attack you personally, or spew out unintelligeable gibberish. You seem to have chosen the latter.


annie-fannie
Thanxx for the ad hominem assault.

You have proved that once again, when you have no argument, you people accuse the opponent of being a "liberal."

In your weary minds, a liberal and a child rapist are the same thing. Quite often, you folq throw out "traitor" and "socialist." You love that stuff.

That's what your T/Radio heroes do. Whatever they do, you copy.

Very good Alpha
You just proved annfanns' point about changing the subject because that's exactly what you did.
She's totally right, Star made very good points and backed them up with PROVEN FACTS.
YOUR post made NO SENSE and contained no logic. So what she said was NOT an "ad hominem assault" it was the truth.
Deal with it.

Craig is a homosexual
Craig was caught soliciting homosexual acts in a toilet. He's scum.

So are the Democrats who try to make use of Craig by reveling in his alleged "hyprocrisy".

It's not clear at all that there is monolithic support among homosexuals themselves for the "cause" of homosexual "marriage".

In Mass., where judicial fiat has decreed homosexual marriage, only a few hundred perverts have actually followed up and done so.

That Craig is opposed to homosexual "marriages" while yet himself being a homosexual pervert is therefore not an act of hypocrisy.

Craig should be ousted BECAUSE he is a pervert, along with all the other congressional Barney Frankers of both parties.

Jesus Certainly Was Not A Republican
Frankly, the left has been rather quiet about Senator Craig’s misfortunate arrest. It has been his party that was so quick to abandon him and assume him to be guilty and a pervert.

As for family values, how hypocritical is it to espouse family values out of one side of your mouth and argue against family for gay couples out of the other side of your mouth. Being gay is not a moral choice, it is a state of being – and science and medicine concur on this. Don’t flash your Christian credentials and not face up to this reality – and your prejudice.

Values and Beliefs
Politicians are elected officials presumably voted into office to serve the interests of the majority of voters in their respected geographical area. When a politician falls short through scandal, corruption, or whatever, it is their individual behavior that needs evaluation not the values and beliefs of the voting majority that placed them into office.

So often in these scenarios the reaction of the opposing political party, and their supportive mass media, is to condemn the other side’s values and beliefs based on the behavior of the individual (the politician).

Senator Craig was voted into office because he ran on a platform that appealed to the conservative values and beliefs of the majority of voters in Idaho. Assuming he is guilty of an indiscretion, his personal choices should have no bearing when it comes to judging the values and beliefs of the conservative minded people who voted him into office.

As grandma used to say, “One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch!”

Hasty generalization
is a fallacy. Bob has correctly pointed out that the mass media and other band wagon riders want to condemn whole groups based on individual actions.

stormrunner's science and medicine
stormrunner screeds:

"Being gay is not a moral choice, it is a state of being – and science and medicine concur on this."

---


And what kind of "science" and what kind of "medicine" supposedly "concur" on this?

Homosexual voodoo science and medicine?

No one is born in a "state of being" either as a germ bomb or as a pedophile: becoming a homosexual is a personal choice to renounce morality and to start harming society in general by spreading disease and targeting children in particular as part of the homosexual choice.

And homosexuals are responsible for the consequences of their choice, which leads to social condemnation and appropriate self-loathing.

-

Gay couple left free to abuse boys - because social workers feared being branded homophobic
By PAUL SIMS
Daily Mail
Last updated at 21:53pm on 5th September 2007

A homosexual foster couple were left free to sexually abuse vulnerable boys in their care because social workers feared being accused of discrimination if they investigated complaints, an inquiry concluded yesterday.

Craig Faunch and Ian Wathey were one of the first homosexual couples in the country to be officially approved as foster parents.

They looked after 18 children in only 15 months.

(article continues)

Full article (scroll UP) and many comments at:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=480151&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments

Excellent thoughts, but,
Ms. Parker, could you please learn to organize them into parragraphs?

Everyone is missing the point
The point of this whole Larry Craig thing is not whether he's a hypocrite, or whether he's gay, or whether this has anything at all to do with family values and who espouses them or any of the other hotbutton issues everyone immediately grabs on to.

This has simply to do with one thing: Do the people of Idaho want, representing them in the United States Senate, a man who trolls for sex in public restrooms?

That's really all there is to it.

Practice Traditional Family Values?
Well Star Parker, here is just one example to follow. It’s from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church”.

And it was not so many decades ago that this was the family value in America – as was separation of the races and the subservience and lack of suffrage of women – defended by the Christian church.

Why the charge of hypocrisy so readily sticks to the religiously conservative is that they so conveniently pick and choose what their "family values” are, depending on time and place, whereas a consistent approach would be to stick with principle and the point that you made in your article that principles are eternal and unchangeable.

If you are so inerrant as not to use your God given intelligence to read scripture in the context of the time and place in which it originated, then either be consistent with that scripture or stop judging those who try to live a good life out of a their commonsense and good intentions.

patrick's science and medicine
And Patrick, you ask, “And what kind of "science" and what kind of "medicine" supposedly "concur" on this?” The answer is the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association (The Association has more than 155,000 members and affiliates, including the majority of psychologists holding doctoral degrees from accredited universities in this country), The World Health Organization, the National Association of Social Workers (the largest social work association in the world, with 153,000 members and chapters in every state as well as internationally).

What peer reviewed science or medicine can you cite that have concluded that homosexuality is a moral choice?

An interesting sentence
*Families are poor in America in 2007 typically because unmarried parents have children and then do not work regularly to support them.*

The last half of that sentence is instructive, and it is the first time I have ever seen the problem that causes poverty defined so precisely. AND THEN DO NOT WORK REGULARLY TO SUPPORT THEM. This is of course the reason ALL poor children are poor. Their parent or parents DO NOT WORK REGULARLY TO SUPPORT THEM.

As for all this whining about trolling for sex in bathrooms, we are having the Toronto International Film Festival here this week, and I would venture to guess that 90% of the people who are slobbering on the shoes of every celebrity who strolls the street care nothing at all how many of them have been busted with prostitutes, or even (George Clooney) soliciting sex in a public washroom. Ditto the many rapists, wife beaters and other anti-family values types in the NFL, and the proud adulterers in the MLB and the NBA who strut through town with their latest bimbo on their arm. And when I used to hang out with hockey players, I knew about many of them who regularly assaulted young women and laughed about it. Nobody seemed to mind that either. If every member of the US Government who was guilty of soliciting sex outside of marriage turned blue tomorrow, we would have to change the name of the country to Smurf Nation.

But all of it has nothing to do with whether or not a woman is married when she has children. Their financial status depends entirely upon WHETHER SHE WORKS REGULARLY TO SUPPORT THEM.

Not So Solid Science
Stormrunner,
Check out the following passage from an article in this month's "Mother Jones," hardly a bastion of right-wing traditionalism:

"While scientists have found intriguing biological differences between gay and straight people, the evidence so far stops well short of proving that we are born with a sexual orientation that we will have for life. Even more important, some research shows that sexual orientation is more fluid than we have come to think, that people, especially women, can and do move across customary sexual orientation boundaries, that there are ex-straights as well as ex-gays. Much of this research has stayed below the radar of the culture warriors, but reparative therapists are hoping to use it to enter the scientific mainstream and advocate for what they call the right of self-determination in matters of sexual orientation. If they are successful, gay activists may soon find themselves scrambling to make sense of a new scientific and political landscape."

The idea that sexuality is a choice may not be as far out there as liberals insist. Science is constantly evolving and changing. Human nature does not. To read the rest of this fascinating article, go to the following link:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/gay-by-choice.html

My theory...
My revolutionary theors states, "Poverty is caused by lack of money".

"For those households headed by a married couple, the average income was $71,010".

And why? Because they are both working 60-hours-a-week to keep their families clothed, fed and insured; oh, and buy their kids the giant TV and the Game-Boy to keep them amused while they wait for their parents to come home.

"Five percent of homes headed by married couples are poor. Over 35 percent of homes, seven times as many, headed by single mothers are poor".

And is it not true that single mothers get paid less (on average) because they are so easily exploitable.

And I get sick-and-tired of single mothers being vilified on TownHall as if they were vimpires and scum.

And... the next time you want to meet a Good-Blood-Family-Man Senator I suggest you hang around your nearest airport rest-room. Seems to be in fashion amongst certain Family Value Republicans. (That way my snarl for the day!)

Bob...
As grandma used to say, “One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch!

It does if you don't get rid of it.

A lot of misinformation
about homosexuality in general. Let's just look at stormrunner as an example. He says, "As for family values, how hypocritical is it to espouse family values out of one side of your mouth and argue against family for gay couples out of the other side of your mouth. Being gay is not a moral choice, it is a state of being – and science and medicine concur on this. Don’t flash your Christian credentials and not face up to this reality – and your prejudice."

Well, homosexual (or gay) is not a noun, rather it is an adjective. One is not gay or a homosexual, one practices homosexual behavior. Whether one has an "orientation" towards someone of the same sex is irrelevant, it is the behavior that is always chosen. There is no science or medical evidence existing to say anything different. And THAT is reality.

Another piece of reality is that psychology is not a science, rather it is a philosophy. Of course if you did any study on the matter you would know that. A philosophy that says homosexuality is not a choice is just an opinion, not science. But, again, whether the "orientation" is a choice or not, the behavior always is. And no one needs to have sex, by the way.

It is not a family value to call people who join together for homosexual sex a "family". Sexual behavior does not define a family.

Also for stormrunner, Paul's discussion about women in the church was not cultural. But you apparently don't have a good understanding of Scripture; perhaps some courses in biblical hermeneutics would help. Paul is speaking only of that which takes place in the church. In context with the rest of Scripture, men and women have different roles in life, and especially the church. There is no subserviance. Nor did the Bible ever justify slavery. Perhaps you should not bring in the Bible until you have studied it a bit.


Cherry Picking Your Arguments
Hermione,

Yes, as you state, “Science is constantly evolving and changing.” And that is the nature of science. But it changes and evolves based on facts, reason and logic, and a rigorous scientific method. As scientific evidence increasingly concluded that the Sun did not revolve around the Earth, but vice versa, science evolved.

I had read and was already familiar with the Mother Jones article, which, if you wouldn’t so selectively quote from it, you would have cited the article in balance as that the cause of homosexuality is seen as some complex combination of nature and nurture.

Regardless, commonsense in itself would suggest to a reasonable person that people do not choose their sexual orientation. I am gay; I certainly did not choose it. Did you choose your sexual orientation?

You know, it hasn’t been too long ago that people who were left-handed were persecuted and many were forced to use their right hand over their left hand. If God made His creation in such a broad range of characteristics why do you question that He would not have included a variety in sexual orientation along with eye color, skin color, height, and the myriad other characteristics that humans exhibit.

Is all of the homosexuality found in numerous non-human species in the natural world not suggestive of something other than moral choice? Does not the fact that sociologists and anthropologists find homosexuality, in rather constant proportions across cultures and over time, have some resonance?

I would think a much more interesting investigation would be into the obsessiveness some supposed heterosexuals have with homosexuality in general.

Where Ignorance Is Bliss
Well excuse me Bluepiper, I suppose arrogance and self-righteousness are also Biblical values. Perhaps you are no better on your theology than you are on your grammar: “homosexual” is both a noun and an adjective (or you know better than Merriam-Webster).

Biblical scholarship can also be "critical" of the New Testament texts themselves in ways that the "historical-critical" model did not allow. It can be challenged morally, religiously, and theologically for its adequacy, consistency, and cogency. Do the texts of the New Testament, when taken at face value, support a structure of society in which women are oppressed? Such texts can best be criticized, not by constructing an imaginary, alternative history of early Christianity in which women enjoyed equality, but on the basis of theological convictions that God's Spirit has brought to maturity within the church. Does the New Testament's inherited monotheism bring with it a virus of intolerance toward diversity that has infected Christian attitudes and behavior? These texts can best be criticized, not by inventing a history of Christianity that was non-Jewish, but by invoking other moral and religious principles within the text to counter the virus of intolerance.

As a student at the University of Richmond, I was privy to the Virginia Baptist Historical Society that is located there, and which, among other things, is a repository of many of the historical sermon texts used by Virginia Baptists, including sermons that used Biblical text to preach against the advisability of women’s suffrage. I could go on to illustrate many sermons in their collection that gave Biblical defense to slavery and sermons that reviled mixed marriages.

And I recently audited Professor John Kihlstrom’s Psych 101 course at UC Berkeley and I assure psychology is a science, and I dare you to find the President of one state university who will disagree.

SIN AND HYPOCRITES
Conservatives do the sin, and then are hypocrites about it!

Stop Deflecting - Accept Responsibility
Senator Craig gets scaught in the Mens room soliciting gay sex, breaks the law, pleads guilty, goes against conservative family values and the GOP puts pressure on him to resign.

But somehow you find a way to blame liberals. You twist and criticize liberalism so you can find a way to blame them. It is getting old and tiring.

Liberals are not against family values. They just don't politicize it.

If you are going to politicize family values, then you should not be surprised with the attacks of hypocrisy when someone in your camp gets caught with their pants down. This is your creation.

So accept responsibility, stop deflecting and clean up your house...

stormrunner's answer
Stormrunner claims that the following have made a scientific determination that homosexuality is "not a moral choice, it is a state of being":

American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, The World Health Organization, and the National Association of Social Workers.

If Stormrunner has evidence that any of these organizations have scientifically adopted the genetic-based theory of homosexuality as a genetic disorder, let's see it.

The hypocracy is evidenced by...
the outcry from the right for Larry Craig to resign while not requiring the same from David Vitter.

Clearly, it was perceived as imperative that Craig go away because he lives in a state where another Republican would be appointed to serve out his term. In the Vitter case, however, it is quite likely that a Democrat would've been his replacement, therefore, no outcry for his resignation. At the end of the day, it's all about politics. No real concern for anything else, just about keeping numbers in the Senate.

The Truth
Republicans bring indiscretions within the party to the forefront, and do not protect the perpetrator. Democrats re-elect them

Interesting irony
Love the sin and hate the sinner.

Lefties just hate. They hate minority Reps. for not being "real" browns or blacks. They hate Asians an Cubans for not being victim classes. They hate the "rich," altho' the most famous ones are almost all super-rich.

The left supposedly champion homosexuals but still use homosexualtiy as a bludgeon. If they want to impugn a reputation, they always use homosexualtiy as a club. Look at J. Edgar Hoover, now a cartoon figure running around in dresses. They are overjoyed that they have video of Rudy Giuliani playing at drag in a comedy skit. On the failed tv show dirt, in the first half hour, at least 2 simulated anal sex acts were portrayed, all in good humor: one with a prostitute "doing" a man, one with the object of blackmail with his girlfriend, being photographed by the manic-depressive photographer. A great joy to behold.

I don't know what Craig did. I do know Congress in general has to stop acting as if they are all above the law and accountability. With cell phone pix, digitalization, the internet, and news at the speed of light, they have to realize they muat live the lives they so painstakingly buy campaign consultants and pr people to portray.

Lexx777, #'s of perfection back at ya.
__The republican principles embodied in this nations foundation, and prosperity, deals with problems when they arise.

Patrick's answer
No Patrick, but these scientific and medical organizations have all concluded that homosexuality is a state of being and not a moral choice -- if you will review my post, I did not state that homosexuality is scientifically proven to be genetically based.

Apart from some religious belief you may have, what is your evidence that homosexuality is immoral? I have very deep Christian beliefs. And my religious belief is that homosexuality is not immoral – nor are homosexual acts in the context of a committed loving adult relationship. Now if it’s suggested we govern on the basis that our religious beliefs trump, then why is your belief more the will of God than is mine? And if it’s suggested that we be governed on the basis of our religious beliefs trumping reason, then that violates the very foundation of our democratic republic, which was founded, in part, to escape conflicts, due to differences in religious beliefs, in the Europe our ancestors had so recently left.

Loves What Sin?
The author of this article doesn't quite make her point, or any sort of main point. "Liberals love the sin"? What sin? Homosexuality? Restroom sex? Hypocrisy? As a liberal Democrat mother of sons, I can assure one & all that when my sons were too big for me to take them into the ladies' room and I sent them alone into the nearest men's room, I would certainly not have wanted them to walk in on a sexual meet & greet. Promiscuous sex with strangers? Does Parker think Democrats have never heard of STDs? That we have no sense of the public health? What nonsense is this woman talking?

As for the charge of hypocrisy, this is an old song we are all tired of. If right-wingers didn't act so sanctimonious and holier-than-thou, their fall from grace wouldn't be so obvious. Last week's NYT discussed a 1970 PhD dissertation on the subject of anonymous homosexual encounters. One of its observations was that men who have this kind of secret sex life tend to wear what the investigator called "the breastplate of righteousness", an overcompensation by being the most upright man with the loveliest family, the nicest house, the greenest lawn---as if to say, "Who, me? Gay? You must be crazy---quickly, go look somewhere else."

Stop the Silliness
Let's stop all the silliness about sex. Star's real point is very simple: Demos say they are concerned about poverty, et al, but they support policies related to the family, et al, that make poverty, et al, worse. This is wrong.

stormrunner, with your so called..
..."deep Christian beliefs", ya gotta tell me how you figured out how homosexuals are going to populate the world!?

To stormrunner
You contend that it is hypocrisy for conservatives to support family values, but deny gays the right to marry and have, or rather adopt, children.

Let me show you the fallacy by example:

Granting women the right to vote was a good and reasonable thing.
Granting box elders the right to vote would be pointless and foolish.





To Learned Hand
Would you happen to have any gay-blasting Craig quotes handy?
By the way, how do you know he is gay? It can't be because he was reportedly soliciting sex with a man. He's apparently also had sex with women, too, you know.

To Mr. Black Dog
"And yet, with most poor blacks having children out of wedlock, i'd say HeLLL is weighted heavily with single black moms! God is REALLY fair - ain't he!"

Actually, having children out-of-wedlock doesn't really determine one's spiritual welfare or final disposition.
I'd also say that your comment was not worthy of utterance. I submit that it doesn't belong in public debate... or in any other form of conversation.
Obviously you have the right to say such things... but SHOULD you say such things?

I Think that you need to Relax
"My revolutionary theors states, "Poverty is caused by lack of money".
LetsAllRelax
Writes

"For those households headed by a married couple, the average income was $71,010".

And why? Because they are both working 60-hours-a-week to keep their families clothed, fed and insured; oh, and buy their kids the giant TV and the Game-Boy to keep them amused while they wait for their parents to come home."

You sir are mistaking if you actually think that 71,010 can actually buy kids giant TVs and game boys. It sounds to me that you are just jealous --typical liberal response. God . . . is there anyone in this country that actually takes accountability for themselves?

stormrunner's admission
stormrunner's original claim at 3:51 AM:

"Being gay is not a moral choice, it is a state of being – and science and medicine concur on this."

Stormrunner's latest:

" ... these scientific and medical organizations have all concluded that homosexuality is a state of being and not a moral choice -- if you will review my post, I did not state that homosexuality is scientifically proven to be genetically based."


---

Ah, ha!

Well, who cares what such organizations "conclude" if they have no scientific basis? And you haven't furnished any evidence that they have even reached the alleged conclusions.

Even if they did, your acceptance of their conclusions without scientific basis is founded on the logical fallacy known as "appeal to authority" and has nothing in common with any actual scientific findings.

As for homosexuality and religion, the religious source of opposition to homosexuality need not be the sole or even the major basis for opposition to it. Simply being aware that homosexuals are violent, spread disease and molest children out of all proportion to their minute numbers in the population is a sufficient basis to take decisive action against them.

wrong statistics
Given that this was supposedly a column about reactions to Craig's sins, it is odd that the statistics given are completely off the mark. What is the average income for same-sex couples with children under 18 in the home? Is this higher or lower than for opposite-sex couples? If it is not significantly lower (and my guess would be that it is higher although for reasons that ideally should be factored out in such an analysis) then by Parker's argument her opposition to same-sex marraige would seem to be at the expense of such children.

But then that just seems to show why proponents of "family values" should embrace homosexual families as well as the heterosexual ones. Obviously I am not holding my breath waiting for that to happen."

Parker is right, however, that both liberals and conservatives have reason to want to support strengthening marraige as an antidote to poverty.

Well, well
Are will still on this? Well, Star has taken a novel approach to the same whitewash: naiveté. We’ve covered every other angle and will soon have “Craig part II.” I hope this doesn’t degenerate into another debate on the virtues of homosexuality again.

What do you say Patrick?

And You Espouse Family Values?
To: Expond Truth – Do you object to the impotent or elderly marrying, since they cannot propagate?

“The gays fall in love exactly the way straights do. Who they choose to love, that will be different, but the way they feel when they love will be the same. The same thing with attachment. Here’s one of the reasons that I don’t understand people are so against gay marriage. They are carting around the same system for attachment as the straights are – no wonder they want to have the same rights!” - Dr. Helen Fisher of Rutgers University

To: Tallil2lonfg – Your fallacy example is in itself a syllogistic fallacy.

But on the issue of gay adoption, the National Association of Social Workers states, “as for the assumption that children are better off with heterosexual parents. There is no empirical basis for this proposition. To the contrary, all the social science research on same-sex parenting has reached the same, unequivocal conclusion: lesbian and gay couples raise children who are as healthy, happy and well-adjusted as those raised by heterosexual couples. Based on all the measures by which child development is analyzed, there is no meaningful distinction between children raised by same-sex couples and children raised by opposite-sex couples. Indeed, there are no scientifically valid social science studies establishing that children raised by an intact same-sex couple are any differently adjusted as compared with those raised by an intact opposite-sex couple.”

By prohibiting the adoption of children by homosexual parents, how many of these children end up not being adopted?

No "Learned Hand"
"Family Values" is not entirely about the failure of one proponent to live up to them 100% of the time.

It's about all the good that comes from more than 100 million people trying to live up to thes values and ALL of us falling short of perfection, but doing A LOT better than we would do if we just used our imperfection as an excuse to wallow in moral terpitude because that would be so much easier and would 'feel good'.

Response to Patrick
To: Patrick: May I refer you to the following which was developed and endorsed by the following organizations, and if you have any facts to dispute this please present them. And I also suggest anyone else take the time to read this and be educated on the subject of homosexuality:

American Academy of Pediatrics
American Counseling Association
American Association of School Administrators
American Federation of Teachers
American Psychological Association
American School Health Association
Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Social Workers
National Education Association

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

If you are a professional or can cite comparable professional organizations to counter this, please do. If you are only offering your personal opinion, then please state it as such and not insinuate that it is fact.


DUH
"misfortunate"


Be careful accusing others of being dumb.


annfan
Glad to see you're back! Always love your posts!

upstream
If a river becomes polluted at its source, every living thing downstream partakes of the pollution. The results are that a cleansing and purity must come from something other than the source.
A careful reading of the Biblical creation story indicates that man and woman were created sinless. The proclamation ensuing the formation of Eve was this: therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. The first parents, however, sinned, and so the river (mankind) was polluted. Parker mentioned "man's proclivity to sin." She is referring, in part at least, to the pollution of sin in the human race.
The wide range of behaviors found in human actions and the animal kingdom are not, Biblically speaking, wholly pure. Hence, there was a need for a Savior to provide a purification for sin. And, the Biblical record notes that there will be a new heaven and earth that is not polluted. Of course, many do not accept a Biblical world view, and they will point to studies, and sciences to help interpret why things are the way they are. So, measuring and comparing loving feelings between homosexuals and heterosexuals, avoiding moral determinations and eschewing the labeling of positive and negative behaviors, all become important activities in forming answers to explain the human condition.
For those posters who espouse a Biblical world view, however, the wide range of human behavior, sexual experiences and preferences, and even DNA driven impulses do not represent purity, nor can they serve as bombs to hurl at The Creator and say, "You made us this way."

stormrunner
You are cherry picking your stats. There is also just as many stats and studies out there about the pratfalls of homosexuality. Including high rates of violence, drug abuse, suicide. There is also a huge lobbying group of people who are the children of homosexuals that are against gay marriage. There are two sides to every coin and presenting one side does not conclude objectivity.

stormrunner
No, I don't object to people who are impotent or elderly getting married.

And I do object to the state telling me I have to respect the relationship between two gays or lesbians as a marriage.

I also object to the social acceptability of single motherhood.

This society achieved a standard in less than 200 years that the great powers, monarchies, and dynasties of Europe and Asia that existed for millenia could only dream about. And the building blocks for that achievement were traditional family units; one man married to one woman raising children for whom they sacrificed their personal comforts and luxuries.

The left has come along in the last 40+ years, looked at what this society has built, and undermined it at its basic building-block level.

The attack on marriage began with "no-fault" divorce, a contradiction in terms if ever there was one.

Then came single motherhood.

Now the left wants gay marriage.

The lie is that gays need to be married so they can visit each other in the hospital, inherit their partner's wealth, and overcome a few other legal obstacles. This is BS. These 'legal' obstacles can be overcome with legal contracts.

What gays and their accomplices on the left are after is the deconstruction of marriage.

The blatant hypocrisy of the left on marriage is that all of the codifed sanctions of marriage stem from respect within the law of the religious precepts upon which marriage is founded. Yet it is this same left that wants to throw religion out of marriage and keep only the law. But if only law is needed (or appropriate) for marriage then civil unions, or a simple contract would suffice.

But the left says no, we want it to be the same. Well, guess what. The reason we're having this discussion is because gays AREN'T the same. And therefore no marriage between two gays can be the same as a marriage between two heteros.

letsallrelax
The democratic barrell is full of rotten apples that you and your party continue to defend and even appalaud, ie-studds, frank, teddy, hill, bill, jefferson, corzine, babs, diane, etc.
Yep, we have many flawed members of our party and if you really look around there, fella, so have you.
The big difference is-ours resign. In this particular case I really don't know why craig listened to arlen specter. Don't really know.
If craig insists on staying on and even running again I seriously doubt that he will win, unlike those on the left ala-jefferson, teddy, etc.
It does appear that the left sure does like sin and their own sinners. It's the Republican sinners the left hates and detests. How very all accepting and loving of them.

The irony
of this is when liberals are so quick to point out and exploit hypocrisy they themselves are quilty of hypocrisy.

wiseone
And let us not forget that it was the wonderful Great Society brought to us by Johnson (who I am sorry to say, I campaigned for).
The great society has been the downfall of the family as we knew it. The great society made it more lucrative for women not to marry the father of their children.
Yep, that's the great society the left has brought us and want to continue. Not so great to me.

Tallil2long
You ask an interesting question as to why there is an assumption that Craig is gay when he apparently had sex with both men and women.

The answer, I think, is that having sex with women (or at least appearing to) was something that was important to him pursuing the career he had chosen in life, namely being a conservative politician. On the otherhand, he apparently had contacts with men despite the fact that their coming to life would destroy his career, as they now apparently have done. This seems to suggest that the homosexuality was a drive that he couldn't do anything about even though it was against his self-interest.

It is harder to know whether that makes him gay or bisexual. I couldn't imaging having sex with a man even if my career depended on it. Apparently those who think that sexual orientation is a choice find this easier to imagine. But homosexuals have married women as a cover through most of history. So it seems likely (although I am just speculating here) that the thought of sex with a woman for gay men (many gay men?) may not be exciting, but is not as repugnant as thought of sex with a man is for heterosexual males.

wiseone
Good morning! I pointed out the social acceptability with out of wedlock preganancies yesterday as being part of the problem. Glad to see someone else is seeing what I am seeing.

Lolo2
Doesn’t that make you doubly ironic, or that like stringing two negatives together?

Xlib
“The big difference is-ours resign.”? Not no more! Welcome to the dark side.

Ugh
Get a grip, people.

The word of the day is integrity. Craig has shown himself to be lacking.

Imagine the pro gun control going deer hunting.

Imagine the minister's daughter getting an abortion.

Imagine Al Gore doing the exact activities he preaches so fervently are destructive to the environment.

Wether or not Craig does the YMCA is of no consequence here. Leave your personal disgust and predjudice out of the discussion.

Or continue to belittle and negate your opinions and influence within the party by clinging to your emotional nonsense, and render yourselves impotent players in the marketplace of ideas.

Actually, on second thought, I like that much better. Please continue the clever banter.

Ugh
Get a grip, people.

The word of the day is integrity. Craig has shown himself to be lacking.

Imagine the pro gun control going deer hunting.

Imagine the minister's daughter getting an abortion.

Imagine Al Gore doing the exact activities he preaches so fervently are destructive to the environment.

Wether or not Craig does the YMCA is of no consequence here. Leave your personal disgust and predjudice out of the discussion.

Or continue to belittle and negate your opinions and influence within the party by clinging to your emotional nonsense, and render yourselves impotent players in the marketplace of ideas.

Actually, on second thought, I like that much better. Please continue the clever banter.

And would someone please fix this
stupid double posting problem!!??

very simple question
Patrick: Do you suppress urges to engage in gay sex?

Why are cops trolling in restrooms?
I believe it's HOMELAND Security, not HOMO Security. Our national priorities are SNAFU.

Lolo
If Craig was a Liberal, the Other Liberals would be saying it’s not his fault, he is finally being honest with himself, etc. Look at how The Liberalcrats treated McGreevey, Studds, etc. Notice when they got hit with facts, Big Black Blowhard SOMEHOW swings the argument around to poverty. What a bunch of Dimwits these Liberals are!

stormrunner don't care one way or...
...the other about a persons right to behave anyway they want. Its everyones right, has long as it does not impede on the rights of others. Gays have the same rights has every other American, but they are not guaranteed behavioral rights. Human rights that support humans! Those people know their behavior is against Love in the Word, so they seek to pass laws justifying their actions. I dislike, with a passion, anyone claiming Christian credentials, to justify choices against the Words teaching.

stormrunner, reparative therapy etc.
The document to which you referred me is merely an attempt to refute "transformational ministry" and "reparative therapy" methodologies in the rehabilitation of homosexuals.

The document does not demonstrate that "Being gay is not a moral choice, it is a state of being – and science and medicine concur on this."

As a so-called "fact sheet" the document advances propositions that are supported mainly by "policy statements", resolutions, actions, position statements and a couple of lawsuits.

The document was prepared at the behest of American Ethical Union, American Friends Service Committee, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, Church of the Brethren, Church Women United, Dignity/USA, Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Hadassah, WZOA, The Interfaith Alliance, Jewish Women International, National Council of Churches of Christ, USA, National Council of Jewish Women, North Georgia United Methodists, Presbyterian Church (USA), Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, Unitarian Universalist Association, United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Women of Reform Judaism, and Young Women's Christian Association.

None of that is the stuff of science.

All the position papers and resolutions do not change the reality that homosexuals in numbers far out of proportion to their numbers in the population are violent, spread disease and molest children.


Wiseone lies
"Wise"one claims: "The lie is that gays need to be married so they can visit each other in the hospital, inherit their partner's wealth, and overcome a few other legal obstacles. This is BS. These 'legal' obstacles can be overcome with legal contracts."

This is a lie. Some of these legal obstacles CANNOT be overcome with legal contracts. For one example, inheritance tax.

Yes, I agree that there should be no death tax, but there is. And while there is, wiseone is lying.

Shall we go through the other 1099 benefit conferred by marriage, one by one? Inheritance of social security benefits, say? (Yes, abolish that pyramid scheme too.)

Shall we consider the costs of making those legal contracts? And working out exactly which ones need to be made?

Get your facts straight, 'wise'one.


Dems
Dems hate the raging hypocrisy of anyone whose bloated self opinions about faith, that and then turns out to be all words and no action. Dems aren't even the ones who pushed for Craig's outing, it was republicans. Can't you see that just being against homosexuality and abortion doesn't give one a free pass to break all the other commandments? Or do you see, and the false religious pandering is show.

SF,

"BTW, my second major in college was psych, and I have a couple of grad courses in it."

Who cares?

GoMommyGo
The Jonathan Alter article that Star disparages explained that the police took action after several complaints to clean up a notorious men’s room.

this again
Expound: Do you wear garments that are made with cotton/polyester blends? If so, you're a Leviticus violator as well.

GoMommyGo: The entrapment argument is interesting. So we need the government to protect us from committed gay couples having the same inheritance rights as married couples. But if gay strangers want to engage in prostitution in a public place, we should let that slide.

Lon writes
"It is harder to know whether that makes him gay or bisexual. I couldn't imaging having sex with a man even if my career depended on it. Apparently those who think that sexual orientation is a choice find this easier to imagine."

I doubt the universality of that last sentence. The folk ranting here about "choice" have never understood what it is like to come of age knowing that one is attracted to the same sex. Instead they just conflate the choice to engage in such behavior with "choice" in the matter overall and turn what's left of their brains off.

"But homosexuals have married women as a cover through most of history. So it seems likely (although I am just speculating here) that the thought of sex with a woman for gay men (many gay men?) may not be exciting, but is not as repugnant as thought of sex with a man is for heterosexual males."

All the socialization you experience says it's OK to engage in straight sex--the social barrier against it does not exist. The question is--to put it crudely--can you get it up? The answer in many cases is Yes, if only through fantasy of what one really wants to be doing.

the science
Patrick: I'm very curious about your response to my question above.

Here's some of the "science" you're looking for:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/08/tech/main1600254.shtml?source=search_story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/26/health/main1753553.shtml?source=search_story

Fascinating
how so many posters here simply write to vent their animus and barely seem to have read the article.

In spite of one blogger, Parker is not deflecting attention away from Sen Craig's disgrace. She is responding to one journalist who thinks that the disgrace of one Senator means the death of family values in politics.

While this would make many journalists and bloggers happy, Parker points out that such an argument is pure ad hominem, and has no basis in logic.

But to understand her point, critics would have to spend at least a few moments trying to get to grips with the concepts of Christian morality, including original sin and grace.

Spinning....
Wow. Did anybody on this thread actually read Star's article?

There are two things guaranteed to have the posts spin off into the netherland of ad-hominem attacks and agenda stumping...

#1 "Craig" ergo it is about Homosexuality and all its attendant permutations for political, religious, and social argument,

#2 "Intelligent Design and/or Darwinism" ergo it is Christianity vs Science

When I read this article, I got Star's point that the Left's agenda is to maintain power by discrediting anyone on the Right who falls short of the morality/family values ideal (and thereby tar everyone on the Right).

AND the Left espouses their very different stance on morality/family values (translate to moral relativism and expanding "family" beyond the traditional) when in practice these ideas have been shown conclusively to undermine the very notion of ending poverty that the Left claims it wants to solve.

All the threads on homosexuality etc., are beside the point Star was trying to make.

I thought her map analogy was spot on.

Thanks Mrs Paddy
for being on much the same page.

Another approach would be to also read the title: "Liberals love the sin and hate the sinner".

Though the point evaded many, Parker is arguing that some Liberal critics have Christian morality precisely backwards. But again, getting the point would require some self-reflection.

you
homos -----get back in the closet and stay there!
It is shameful what you do.- and you know it is.

PeterE
Same back at you. It was funny, I posted mine, and there was yours saying basically the same thing...only yours was better stated, I think.

Liberals love the sin
Liberals love the sin but hate the sinner? I think if you actually check the various VALID news sources, you will see that it is the Republicans that are attacking him like a bunch of wild dogs. They cannot stand the thought that on e of their own is gay.

It is really sad that he had to hide who he actually was due to the hatred preached by his party. If not for this, he could have led the lifestyle that accepts him for who he is and not hidden it. As a result he resorted to anonymous sex with strangers and prostitutes which led to his arrest.

I do not understand why Republicans feel the need to spread hatred. I have noticed that the most homophobic people usually end up being closet gays. They attack because they are attempting to deny who they are.

Very sad.

No. YOU go into the closet
pandm,

It is not shameful. What is shameful is the closet.

Try it some time.

PeterE
Thanks for visiting my blog. The article was written in response to a lot of America-bashing. I've lived outside the US off and on over the last 15 years. I'm well aware we aren't the only country with 'running water'...my speil was mostly to slap at Americans who don't appreciate what we have and look for validation outside of here. We will make friends when we stop feeling guilty for being who we are.

Vicious Republicans
Well that's what some think because many Republicans called for Senator Craig to resign.

But as I pointed out a few times, if Republicans want to carry the mantle of family values, it can't come without a price. Republican leaders cannot not afford to live one lifestyle and espouse another - in spite of the doctrine of grace.

Then when Republicans hold fast to their values and ask an errant Senator to resign, the Left accuses them of viciousness.

That's just because the Left does not understand family or Christian values.

Not not
Please ignore the "not".

Christian values
"Blessed are the peacemakers."

"You can't serve God and money."

Unlike condemntations of homosexuality, these are things that Christ actually said. The Left understands Christian values pretty well.

PeterE

"That's just because the Left does not understand family or Christian values."

We don't understand why..
1. The right picks all these Craig like representatives.
2. The right embraces torture, not much of a family value if you ask me.
3. The right insists that to help the poor in bad, that the 2nd highest infant mortality rate is o.k. by them...ect.
4. Why they think they can legislate morals and can't even take care of their own back yard.
5, Why the right is attacking public schools and want to destroy them.
6. Why the right would create so much bad policy like child health insurance and say they are for family values.

In sum the right is an attack on family values and only approves of words not deeds.

Get real SFASU
Both sides are full of scumbag politicians who will do anything to stay in power. Tell me, why did it take years for Foley to be bounced out? How long did conservatives circle the wagons around Delay and Abramoff? Face it, both sides will protect their people as long as there is any defense to provide (look at the people here claiming that Craig isn't gay.) Neither side has a monopoly on integrity.

Bob Dylan, Guns & Roses
Are they also gay???

Weren’t they also "knock, knock, knockin’ on heaven's door"?



Tap, tap, tap… Is this thing on?

cam's junk science
1. Regarding Lesbians brains, the article itself admits:

"Each of the three groups of subjects included 12 healthy, unmedicated, right-handed and HIV-negative individuals."

36 total participants is "science"? And those 36 included hetero men, homo men, hetero women and homo women. So dividing 36 total participants by 4 groups, presumably there were *9* of each.

That's not a study, that's a joke.

2. The other supposed study about younger brothers greater susceptibility to homosexuality being "genetic" is too stupid to bother to refute in detail. Nothing in the article reasonably indicates that the homosexuality is anything other than a personal choice.

3. I have flagged your 11:50 AM comment for the offensive innuendo that it is.

Wow, SFASU
You can always tell that the conservatives on this board have powerful persuasive arguments when they use terms like "libtards" and "dumbbuttcraps": let us know when you graduate 6th grade so we can throw a big celebration for you.

Seriously, "dumbbuttcraps"??
Are you 12 years old? (at least that would give you an excuse)

A simple test for Patrick...
When did you seriously consider being gay and decide you were straight? I mean, if it is indeed a moral choice, then you must have decided for yourself at some point.

A possible solution to Congress
Representation by Lottery

It's long overdue to clear out the entire den of thieves.

The United States is a representative republic, not a "democracy" and its time to revise our legislative institutions to make them more genuinely representative of the people.

The simplest way to make Congress more genuinely representative is to hold a lottery for each US representative and US senator.

There should be conditions on lottery participants of course: no criminal convictions, and there should be tests to assure basic knowledge of the operation of US government, e.g., passing the US citizenship exam given to all immigrants, and senatorial lottery participants in particular should also pass the written portion of the State Department's Foreign Service exam.

Other than such conditions, the basic principle should be random selection using the same methods that are used to select state lotto winners.

Imagine US representatives and senators who are selected from among the people in the districts or states they represent and from all walks of life without the need for any party affiliation.

What we'd get in return is a legislative branch that is far more representative of the people than the sewer that Congress has become.

And the chance that anyone would win the lotto twice is so remote that it would effectively constitute a one-term limit.

Yikes...
I kind of like Patrick's solution...scary.

Educating Taft
We don't understand why..
1. The right picks all these Craig like representatives.
(Vague and vituperative.)
2. The right embraces torture, not much of a family value if you ask me.
(Incorrect statement. But some encouragement might be required if your daughter's life is at stake - a family value.)
3. The right insists that to help the poor in bad, that the 2nd highest infant mortality rate is o.k. by them...ect.
(Huh?)
4. Why they think they can legislate morals and can't even take care of their own back yard.
(See every post that discusses how Christians can't and don't claim to be perfect).
5, Why the right is attacking public schools and want to destroy them.
(Not correct, most conservatives wish public schools would do a better job; is the creator of No Child Left Behind a leftist today?).
6. Why the right would create so much bad policy like child health insurance and say they are for family values.
(That doesn't add up to "so much bad policy", but you could think that dismantling the marriage penalty and encouraging welfare recipients to get a job would be good for families - a conservative move even if implemented by Mr Clinton.)

As it happens I don't think Republicans have a stranglehold on family values. Either party could embrace policies that encourage strong families. But anything that instills a sense of responsibility rather than reliance on the state, that responds to the fact that kids are better off living with two parents of opposite genders who love each other, and helps families to survive despite the ups and downs of life in this competitive society, would be good.

glass houses
As I suspected, no amount of scientific evidence would satisfy you. The second study clearly shows that homosexulity is not directly genetic. Identical twins can have differnet orientations. But hormones appear to affect sexual orientation. The correlation between orientation and older brothers is clear. One doesn't choose the number of older brothers.

As for the "innuendo", one needs to have gay urges to choose to suppress them. If you don't have them, it's not a real choice.

It sure sounds like you would hate to lose your punching bag.

SFASU
Wow, your answer was the equivalent to saying "I called him a poo poo head because he is a poo poo head." Can't imagine why anyone would call you immature... To answer your question, two examples are Jim McGreevey, who was forced to resign, and Gary Condit, who was defeated in a primary after he refused to resign.

Yeah SFASU, right...
Because I named 2 examples ALL others must have been given a pass; that's totally sound logic, but then again, you've proven yourself to be a real genius with your "dumbbuttcraps" comments, so I guess I shouldn't expect better of you. Are there any actual, intelligent adult conservatives on this board?

PeterE
"But anything that instills a sense of responsibility rather than reliance on the state, that responds to the fact that kids are better off living with two parents of opposite genders who love each other, and helps families to survive despite the ups and downs of life in this competitive society, would be good."

This is kind of a core problem with this column. Both parties obviously support much of what you describe, but exactly what does the government have to do with promoting this?

Jim McGreevey
Was he forced to resign? Or did he just think that his political standing would be lost irretrievably after having to admit that he had been serially unfaithful to his wife with other men, including in a number of trysts in public places, and that he had hired his unqualified boyfriend to look after public security at a time of serious terrorist threat?

The problem was not his sexuality, but his apparent lack of character and judgement.


Learned Hand's master baiting refuted
Learned Hand screeds:

"A simple test for Patrick...
When did you seriously consider being gay and decide you were straight? I mean, if it is indeed a moral choice, then you must have decided for yourself at some point."

---

Learned Hand's homo baiting easily refuted:

My computer comes with default settings that do not require consideration of any change. Unless I make a conscious choice to change those settings, they remain the same. If uninterested, I need not - and do not - ever consider changing any of the defaults. No conscious decision to maintain the default settings is required.

In this case, the same applies to people, all of whom have normal default settings for heterosexuality. No one with the default setting of heterosexuality ever needs to examine it. Those who do examine it and tamper with the setting have made a choice, while those who are uninterested simply don't alter the setting. They do so without any need to make a choice, or ever having considered making one.

So much for the master baiting of the learned hand.

Patrick
I like the "master baiting"; that was actually somewhat clever and funny (SFASU needs to take some notes.) Hate to say it, but your entire argument rest on the argument that ALL humans have a "default setting" of heterosexual: could you please point to a scientific study which conclusively proves this?

scam
cam writes:

"But hormones appear to affect sexual orientation."


---


The article that you cited furnished no proof that hormones have anything to do with homosexuality. There was speculation, nothing more. Or can you show me how the so-called study measured the hormone levels of each brother along with the actual results. Or does the "study" show the mother's hormonal status during each brother's pregnancy?

You know as well as I do that it didn't.

The notion that homosexuality is anything other than a personal choice is promoted precisely through junk science articles from such scientific "luminaries" as CBS News.

Holy double standard Batman...
Wait SFASU; a Republican shouldn't resign until he is convicted of something, whereas a Democrat must resign as soon as he is accused of something? Yeah, that's really fair.

Patrick
If you never thought about it, how did you learn of the default switch?

I love the lottery idea. It’s perfect for people who can’t handle freedom.

Family values and public policy
I think Star Parker's article stands, as a criticism of Jonathon Alter's comment.

But it is true that it is not crystal clear what laws we could write that would help build stronger families.

She writes: "Do family values matter? You bet they do.

They may be a matter of principle for conservative Republicans. But they are a matter of life and death to America's poor and particularly to America's poor blacks."

Whose family values is she talking about? The family values of poor blacks. The question is, how can the culture be changed so that traditional familes are more valued?

This cannot be done so much through legslation but through boring things like public propriety and true role modelling.

We successful adults love to be able to say "whatever Pres Clinton/Senator Craig/Governor McGreevy did was his own business". But someone pays a price for our indulgence and our freedoms.

The point is not that Republicans are good and Democrats are bad. It is that someone has to stand up for the value of the traditional heterosexual family, whether it is of the nuclear or the extended kind.

How else can the culture of America be changed? Here we have so many would-be heroes who are unfaithful and proud of it, who are drugged-out and not ashamed of it, who are throughly selfish and recommend it as a lifestyle to others.

Do you want to explain to your child why Senator Craig resigned, why Governor McGreevey resigned or why President Clinton was impeached? I have a hard enough time explaining 9/11.


Furthermore, SFASU...
How do any of these scandals disprove what I said about BOTH sides being totally corrupt and not having a monopoly on (or proper claim to) integrity?

Learned Hand
Learned Hand writes:

" ... your entire argument rest on the argument that ALL humans have a default setting' of heterosexual: could you please point to a scientific study which conclusively proves this?"


---


Logic alone is sufficient to answer your question. The alternatives to a default setting of heterosexual are:

a. A homosexual default setting or

b. No default setting at all.

c. Some set for hetero, some for homo.

A default setting of homosexual would mean the end of the species, and neither you nor I would be here to discuss any of this.

A "no-default" setting would result in a 50-50 split which is not observed.

That 99% heterosexual is indeed the norm is beyond question. The burden of proof is then on the homosexuals and despite decades of homosexual attempts to document a genetic link, none has been found.

The ball is in YOUR court.

PeterE
But you entirely miss our point: I think the "traditional heterosexual family" is wonderful and should be supported. But I know of MANY "traditional" homosexual families who do just as good a job as heterosexuals of raising healthy, well-adjusted children. I have been called a conservative by many of my more liberal friends because I do believe that a child is generally best served by a two-parent household: I just don't care what gender the two parents are as long as they love and care for the child and act in his or hers best interest. I also want there to be legal protections for these couples so they aren't torn apart during difficult times and the children remain supported.

PeterE gives the game away!
"The point is not that Republicans are good and Democrats are bad. It is that someone has to stand up for the value of the traditional heterosexual family, whether it is of the nuclear or the extended kind."

Yeah, right. It doesn't matter what kind of family it is, so long as it's straight.

"Family values" = "Not gay." Loathsome.

Patrick
I don't see in your last posting where you disproved "C" which is what I would say is the answer. And yes, there has been extensive research over the years pointing to the existence of a "gay" gene, but you are intent on dismissing all of it as false, simply because it hasn't been completely proven and then citing false "logic" as your answer. Again, please provide scientific proof for this default setting; the ball is in your court.

MikeR rants again
MikeR disingenuates:

"If you never thought about it, how did you learn of the default switch?"

Look around you, Mike. I mean, OUTSIDE your limited "gay" community. 99% of people are normal. 1% aren't. That's how I learned about it, too.

MikeR further screeds:

"I love the lottery idea. It’s perfect for people who can’t handle freedom."

You're right, my idea to select representative and senators is a serious deprivation of freedom:

to every political careerist, to every special interest that buys influence through campaign contributions, to every political party that is established to protect special interests, to every corrupt politician (sorry for the redundancy), for every millionaire who wants to join the Senate the nickname of which is the "Millionaire's Club" and much more.

The only freedom that is ensured by my lottery proposal is the freedom of the American people to delegate their authority to authentic representatives of the people, rather than to special interests.

If random selection among a large number of Americans is considered to be sufficiently representative of the population as a whole for purposes of social statistics, then why should a random selection of Americans as delegates to the House of Representatives and US Senate be any different?

Surely it will be better representative of the people than the current fraud of special interest "democracy" which is not part of the US Constitution. George Washington himself warned against the establishment of political parties and was disappointed to see that the election system had produced them. Random selection by lottery destroys parties and eliminates campaign spending influence peddling while holding true to our origins as a representative republic.

more lies from SFASU
Republicans always resign? Right, like how Craig has vowed to withdraw his resignation if he can find a way to escape his guilty plea and how Foley stayed in the House for years after other GOPers knew of his acts? Give it up and admit what everyone knows; power corrupts and these Dems and Repubs will both stay in office until it remains politically unfeasible to do so.

Mellor
is shocked to find that the traditional family is heterosexual?

This, folks, looks like the point where religion enters the game.

You may be right. All those poor black kids would be fine if their mothers suddenly took up with a good quality black woman and embraced the new tradition of the strong homosexual family. Hands up how many people believe this one.

Although white society is largely eviscerated by moral doubt, black families are pretty much into heterosexuality, I think.

But religion comes into it because the family is God's institution. And He lets us know in one way or another what a family is supposed to look like, and what sex is and what it is for (the creation of love, life and lineage).

The crowd screams "theocracy", but the cultural change I am talking about is based on the spiritual transformations of individuals, not mandated by governments.

Suggestion
Don't encourage Patrick.

Learned Hand
I've said it before, I'll say it again: the burden of proof is on the homosexuals to prove c. In the absence of homosexual evidence of a homosexual "gene" the fact that 99% of the population is normal is itself sufficient to establish a default setting of homosexuality.

It's always possible that NASA faked the moon shot and that the Earth is actually flat, but until flat earthers provide evidence to the contrary, I'm going with the 99% who accept the roundness of the Earth. Sorry if that approach seems illogical or unscientific to you.

There is no scientific proof of a homosexual "gene" other than in the fulsome imaginations of the homosexuals themselves.

Patrick & the Lottery
I don't disagree with you. Selection of our representatives similar to jury selection would certainly be no worse than the professional polititians we have. Unfortunately, it would require tinkering with the Constitution to do it.

It is about a likely as term limits, which I also think is long overdue.

All we can do is toss the bums out. There's plenty of corruption on both sides of the aisle. Last I looked we were all Americans. Reading these threads it's more like people identify themselves as

Liberal-American, Conservative-American, Gay-American, Christian-American, African-American,

For myself, I am tired of the hyphenated status of our citizenry.

It's not YOU and THEM...it's US. And a government divided against itself cannot stand...somebody pretty smart said that once. He was right.

I'm sorry
but I have to write it again: "Mellor is shocked to find that the traditional family is heterosexual."

That was so much fun!

More bait and switch
Nice attempt by PeterE to confuse the issue. Sorry, but there is a good chance that the black family you're speaking of would be better off if there was another person bringing income into the family. And I don't think you'll find a lot of single black mothers who blame their struggles on the gay and lesbian families who are raising children. But it's always convenient to paint socio-economic problems as moral failings.

Wow, you went to the SC Criminal...
...Justice Academy back in 1974 and yet you still argue like a 12 year old, using attacks like "dumbbuttcraps"? So incredibly sad...

MellorSJ2, Alan Wolfe sit in a tree
MellorSJ2 has lost every argument that he has ever had with me, so I'm not surprised that he would want to suppress discussion.

It's much like the case of Alan Wolfe's cowardice mentioned in another Town Hall article today:

Censorship at Boston College
http://townhall.com/columnists/DineshDSouza/2007/09/10/censorship_at_boston_college

Wait Patrick...
Are you arguing that 99% of Americans believe that being gay is a moral choice? Can you show me those stats? Since majority rules, I assume that you agree that evolution is a fact and that abortion should be legal. And why exactly is the burden on gays, other than because you say so?

LH are you serious?
Homosexual marriage is the antidote for black poverty?! I have to take a break!!