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Monday, August 27, 2007
Star Parker :: Townhall.com Columnist
Who is sicker, Vick or PETA?
by Star Parker
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The Michael Vick dogfighting scandal is morphing into a broader NFL dogfighting scandal, as other NFL players also appear to be involved in this very weird pastime.

But as animal-rights groups get more aggressive in their accusations and demands, the whole scene is getting stranger and stranger. And the closer you look, the more you see the deep conflicts in core values that fracture our society.

PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) wants the NFL to "add cruelty to animals -- in all its forms -- to its personal conduct policy." What, for PETA, is "cruelty to animals -- in all its forms"? According to its Web site, we should not eat, wear, experiment on, use for entertainment or abuse animals in any way.

So PETA's problem is well beyond the sick and cruel murdering of these creatures of which Vick and others are allegedly guilty. Dogfighting for entertainment, or any other use of animals for entertainment, is itself, for PETA, cruelty.

If it's relevant to look for any kind of logic here, why would it be decent entertainment to watch hulks of men ram the daylights out of each other as they move a ball across a field, but cruel to watch dogs fight? Why would the NFL sign on to such a thing?

More specifically, among PETA's prohibitions, is the use of animal skins. The ball, as in football, is an inflated leather object endearingly called the "pigskin."

Why does PETA oppose existing NFL conduct policy, and not football itself?

J.C. Watts, Chuck Colson and others have asked why abuse of dogs is outrageous to so many who see no similar outrage in the 800,000-plus abortions that occur in the United States each year. At the most intuitive level, there is something unsettling about an attitude for which abuse of a dog is intolerable, but women destroying their unborn children with impunity is not a problem.

Logging onto the PETA Web site, I notice the PETA Files blog announces as one of the group's supporters porn star Jenna Jameson. "In addition to being an icon of the adult-film world, Jenna Jameson ... happens to be a good friend of PETA. Jenna first got involved in animal rights after watching 'Earthlings' a year or so ago, and we couldn't be happier to have her on her side in our KFC campaign ... She also happens to date ...UFC fighter Tito Ortiz ..."

Again I wonder. PETA is untroubled by pornography, the unapologetic exploitation and marketing of human flesh, but explains that we should not eat fish because they "are smart, interesting animals with their own unique personalities." The blogger says Jameson is "beautiful, inside and out."

The UFC -- Ultimate Fighting Championship -- where Jameson's boyfriend fights, consists of "mixed martial arts," where fighters do violent battle, for popular entertainment, using the full array of martial-arts forms. The PETA blogger obviously enjoys this sport and calls Ortiz "my favorite UFC fighter."

PETA provides material on its Web site to explain the rationale of the "animal-rights" concept that drives its worldview. "When it comes to pain, love, joy, loneliness, and fear, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy," says PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk.

For more extensive exposition, the site refers to the writings of Princeton philosopher Peter Singer, author of "Animal Liberation."

Now Singer has written on a great deal more than animal rights. He's the author of "Practical Ethics," in which he offers his justifications for euthanasia, abortion and infanticide.

According to Singer, parents should be permitted to kill a baby born with a tragic illness or defect. In "Practical Ethics," he argues that "... the fact that a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of the species Homo sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it; it is, rather, characteristics like rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness that make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings, or any other self-conscious beings."

Thus, through a long and twisted road of logic, beginning with one man's own premises about existence, we are led to a conclusion that killing animals is an outrage, but an infant, not.

Computer scientists call this "garbage in, garbage out." Our conclusions are only as good as the premises we start with.

And hence, the cultural divide in our country. It all starts with where we get our premises.

The NFL is a bit, as they say, between a rock and a hard place. Michael Vick's lifestyle is not one to hold up to young fans. But those who thirst for his destruction offer a picture that is no prettier.

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About The Author
Star Parker is the founder and president of CURE, the Coalition for Urban Renewal & Education, a 501c3 think tank which explores and promotes market based public policy to fight poverty, as well as author of White Ghetto: How Middle Class America Reflects Inner City Decay.
 
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Vick chose his villainy
There are many things in life which are wrong, some of which are also evil. Dogs being bred to fight and viciously discarded for failing to live down to expectations is evil-- pure and simple. No amount of rationalization can make Vick's heinous activities more palatable. He lied about his involvement which he had engaged in deliberately and willingly. He should never play again in the NFL, and he deserves universal censure.

Any who suggest that this is an ethnic cultural phenomenon denigrate that culture with faint damnation. That he will have squandered fame and fortune for such a vile vice speaks to his personal baseness. Any apologies he tries to make will smack of the thief who is not sorry about having stolen, but only regrets very much getting caught.

But lodestar nobody called this ETHNIC
cultural phenomenon. Distinctly the article speaks to the fact that it's a CULTURAL phenomenon that those who denigrate VICKS for killing an animal may yet not cite any problem with killing an infant born 'imperfect'.

I'd think few would argue with you on the rest of it but playing hte race card is pretty out of left field here.

You missed the point I believe
With the *sports* we (as humans) indulge in, how can we say that pit bull fighting is so wrong? And even if we do concede that it is wrong, is it as wrong as PETA would have us believe? They want to see the man crucified for using the dogs THE WAY THEY WERE BRED. Like it or not, pit fighting is what these dogs were bred for. (No, I am not an advocate for pit fighting but facts are pesky things.)

And the bigger issue is who is to tell ANYONE what is unlawful regarding animals - PETA or your local/state laws? Would ANYONE care to live under laws written by PETA? (NOT ME! Those people are wackos!)

If you CHOOSE to be vegetarian or vegan, that is your right, but keep your hands off my burger and your *issues* off my dogs, cats, horses and cattle. Animals should be treated humanely, but not as humans!

You missed a point in yours
Breeding dogs for fighting IS a STATE violation, it's not a PETA law. And killing animals through hanging and drowning is also a STATE law of cruelty to animals.

Pit fighting is no more legal than opium growing.

PETA are definitely wackos, witness their willingness to blow up a ship or torch an entire auto plant to make a point.

No less wacko is this VIcks guy, Starr is hardly exposing the hypocrisy of PETA to truly exonerate Vicks and his ilk.

Starr is rightfully pointing out that the same culture that has managed to give birth to PETA in all its festering unglory, has also proved the breeding ground for the strange and disturbed folk who take delight in out and out cruelty to animals, UNAMBIGUOUSLY cruel treatment that results in lurid deaths and horrific pain. PETA finds funds (the basis for most of these looney tune groups) to protest nearly any incident with animals involved as grounds for cruelty and therein lies the reason for the scoffing of the organization.

A bigger question for me is how do we reverse course from here, where our reaction to stories of animal cruelty or child abuse or illegal sports activity elicit few raised eyebrows and a great deal of unsettling rationalization and defense of the perpetrators?

This is troubling to me.
Michael Vick and the wierdos from PETA are disgusting. All of this talk about dogfighting being a cultural norm for some people really irritates me.


If forcing pitt bulls to fight to the death, or killing the dogs that lose is a cultural norm for anybody, that culture needs to be eradicated. If he is guilty Vick needs to go to jail. I don't watch UFC. It is disgusting watching these people trying to physically demolish each other. I think there is something wrong with the people who watch it. Ditto for wrestling.


On the other hand I like boxing. That is a violent sport, just like football, Don't even mention hockey. How do I justify my appreciation of boxing? I guess I can't.


I do know that Michael Vick, if guilty, and the creeps who watch these animals tear themselves apart, should be put in a pit and forced to fight to the death. As far as I am concerned they are the scum of the earth.

Michael Vick
Regarding Star Parker's article on Vick.....wow! Is it possible that she, and all of you Townhall responders are this dimwitted? Here it is folks, so read carefully: football players and MMA fighters do so VOLUNTARILY. Dogs do not choose to engage in the barbarism that the criminal punk Vick FORCED them into.
Ok, do we get it now?

Finally: Reason!
This is the first of dozens of articles on this site that is closely-reasoned, sticks to actual facts, and doesn't grossly misrepresent its opponents views in order to quash them. Kudos!

One point, though: abortion involves a woman making a very difficult and painful decision about something (yes, a potential person) inside her. Killing an animal involves ending the life of a sentient being that is disconnected from the self. We fill it only because it has no recourse. We like how it tastes, even though we can eat something else; we "need" it for research; etc. Very different.

The larger point
By engaging in the dog fighting, Vick has demonstrated that he is without heart and soul. Cruelty to animals is one thing. PETA on the other hand, in all its activity, demonstrates its hatred for man. "A rat is a pig is a boy" is just one of their pronouncements.

Vick's actions were limited to a few dogs that were treated cruelly while PETA's actions day in and day out are anti the human race globally.

And someone above doesn't know the difference between ethic and ethNic...Whew!


AfriKa that is relativism
You are very wrong with your rationale regarding the human life you refer to. You are ignoring a life only because that life has no voice and you can not see it without assistance such as an ultrasound. And most women who have abortions do so out of pressure from others, then suffer termendously. To commit murder and not feel anything is the description of a sociopath. The sickness that is described is Star's and others comments will never go away so long as we tolerate the murder of the most innocent and vulnerable. See no evil, hear no evil, does not make evil go away.

spell check
I apologize for not checking my post, I meant to say 'as' Star's not is Star's, and tremendously, not termendously.

Impact says . . .
"By engaging in the dog fighting, Vick has demonstrated that he is without heart and soul."

Vick is also without brains. Leaving aside the ethical questions, what kind of fool would put a couple of hundred million dollars at risk (contract plus endorsements) for for no reason? He should be barred from any sports requiring an IQ over 50.

afriKa
I agree about the abortion issue, I have long thought that abortion is a moral and religious decision that should be left to a woman, the man involved, and their G-d. We should look to teaching people that adoption is a better answer, or even better, abstain from casual sex and have sex mean what it once did; sharing your most intimate self with someone you love deeply.
Those who are vehemently against abortion often talk about the psychological suffering of the woman after the procedure. I would argue that the psychological suffering is caused not by the procedure, but by the constant spiritual hammering one recieves from the rabid right-to-lifers. The biggest issue I have with abortion is that the way the law reads, the male (yes it still takes two to tango) is not allowed any latitude at all in this turn of events. If the woman wants to abort, but the man doesn't, well, sorry about your luck. It's an abominable state of affairs.

Jeannie/all
Vick was charged under Federal statutue, not State. I would have liked to see him challange that law, but it would have cost a lot and the court is still to tied up in liberalism for it to fly. I don't see regulation of dog fighting anywhere in the Consitution as a power of the federal government.

Anyway, the point of the article is that PETA also has some weird out of touch ideas. I agree with that.

onc.nrs: You're absolutely correct!

"It" is not a "potential" life... IT IS LIFE... a growing living human being!!!

"J.C. Watts, Chuck Colson and others have asked why abuse of dogs is outrageous to so many who see no similar outrage in the 800,000-plus abortions that occur in the United States each year."

EXACTLY!!



In the Vick case...
..it is the extralegal "punishment" that people are calling for that bothers me.That is a very slippery slope to go down.For example,I don't like speeding on the highway and I don't speed intentionly.Excessive speed is against the law.If you are caught speeding,you pay a fine.However,you are not banned for life in pursuing a career.That would be extralegal punishment.So I don't recommend that an insurance saleman who gets a speeding ticket should be banned from selling life insurance for the rest of HIS life."Commit the crime,do the time",thats all.Vick commited a crime.Let him do the time.

And BTW,some ethnics do have a partiality to certain behavior that are illegal in this country.For example some Spanish speaking cultures like cockfighting and bull fighting.I had the opportunity to see bullfighting in Pamploma,and enjoyed it.I saw cockfighting in Vietnam,and didn't enjoy it.But in any case,all society's have to live with their own culture.Our law says "No dogfighting".So let Vick "do his time" and pay his debt to society,and then get on with his life.

No fan of PETA...
....but what a ludicrous, apologetic article.

I agree that PETA is misguided, but they hardly meet Vick's level of unimaginable cruelty.

The worst thing I've ever heard from PETA is that they would rather have AIDS continue if a cure involved animal testing.

Words, mere words. Vick took action. And this author is just trying to dismiss and excuse his behavior.

Beckie: Sorry, ol' girl.

"I would argue that the psychological suffering is caused not by the procedure, but by the constant spiritual hammering one recieves from the rabid right-to-lifers."

The so called "spiritual hammering" is NOT what causes the psychological suffering.

It's the termination of life... and specifically the termination of one's own child, that ultimately goes against the grain and soul of any women who is carrying life, that causes the psychological suffering.

Good try, but no!


onc.nrs
When people start having funerals for miscarriages I might believe you're sincere; until it's viable it is just "potential" a potential human being but not yet there.

Would Vick be banned from the NFL

"legally," or would he be banned because the "NFL" says he wouldn't be allowed to play?


Beckie Writes
If the woman wants to abort, but the man doesn't, well, sorry about your luck. It's an abominable state of affairs.

Try this one on for size! Suppose a man doesn't want to take on the responsibility and cost of raising a child until the age of 18. Let's make it fair. If the father does not want the child he can offer to foot the bill for an abortion. If the mom says no then he should be let off the hook. How about that to all you pro choicers out there? Just because a baby has not exited the birth canal does not mean it is non human. PETA and the rest of their ilk need to be marginalized, ignored and allowed to die on the vine. If they hate the human race so much then reduce it by the number of people in PETA and leave the rest of us alone. One other thing. Have you ever noticed that those people who are pro-abortion have all been born? Are they hypocrites or what!

Vick should serve time
because he tortured and hanged defenselss dogs, and/or promoted and associated with people who did so.

But PETA does not even endorse owning pets or farm animals or distinguish between domestic animals and wild animals and equates a rat with a human being, in consideration of life.

The law should handle Vick's legal transgrssions, and the NFL and the Falcons should handle his careet future. I don't care if he ever plays football again, but neither I not PETA should determine that future.

THE KILLING OF DOG VS BABIES
The Vick story is evidence just how secular and callus our society has become. The killing of dogs without question is wrong, but if Vick had forced his girl friend to get an abortion (the murder of a human baby) no story. 4,000 times each day abortion doctors take the lives of these children, then go home as if nothing had happened. There is no way anyone can justify the act of killing human babies, it has taken our country to an all time low in morality, and we are paying a dear price. The Vick story just bears evidence to that. PETA, and liberials are not the only ones to be held accountable, our entire nation will suffer the judgement.

Roadkill58: "Just because a baby has not

exited the birth canal does not mean it is non human."

When my son was 16yrs. old, his HS senior thesis was on abortion. While doing his research, he came across a picture of a surgeon while doing surgery in utero, and a tiny little, perfectly formed hand was grasping the surgeon's finger.

When he called me into the computer room to see this picture, he just looked at me with tears in his eyes, and said, "Tell me that's not a human person!"

Mind you, this came from a 6' 3" star athlete!




Missing the point
All of you who think Vick should do the time then get on with his life fail to understand that the NFL is a private organization and can restrict membership for certain types of behavior. While I agree they should not be streamrolled into dumping Vick they have responsibilities which go beyond entertainment. This is one reason why I like Professional Golf. If TW were involved in something like this his career would be over no if ands or buts. Many of those people supporting Vick are more concerned about the loss of another black QB than what this does to the NFL as a whole. Rush was right after all!

Anne writes:
When he called me into the computer room to see this picture, he just looked at me with tears in his eyes, and said, "Tell me that's not a human person!"

Mind you, this came from a 6' 3" star athlete!

MY POINT EXACTLY. While dog fighting is cruel it does not compare to the barbaric practice of abortion. If the photo you spoke of were plastered to a billboard where everyone driving down the road would see it you can bet your bippy we would see some legislation prohibiting partial birth abortion. About two weeks ago a bunch of bloviating senators passed some stupid bill prohibiting the "barbaric practice" of internet hunting. It would be nice to see them stand up for the rights of the unborn as much as they stand up for the rights of animals and terrorists.

my 2 cents
1) In re abortion - life begins at conception so if it's growing - which it is from the instant of conception - it is ALIVE.

2) Where I live PETA stands for
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

And I have the t-shirt to prove it.

p.s. - staging, financing and betting on dogfights in order to watch dogs fight each other until one can't fight any longer or is killed and then either strangling or electrocuting the losers - isn't that, well, just a bit sick?

Well duhhh

More Christian moral relativism
PETA does not support abortion. I support PETA. I am a vegetarian. Killing animals is not moral and neither is abortion.

Conservatives need to find a moral compos. They need to learn that killing is wrong. It is wrong in Iraq, it is wrong in slaughter houses, it is wrong at abortion clinics, it is wrong in our prisons.

Well off point
If you're worried about collateral damage, we got into Vietnam for the depredations of the North against the South and went to defend a democratic country against a ravenous, communistg, aggressive predator--as we stand today against N. Korea and protect S. Korea.

Leaving Viet. to the tender mercies of Ho Chi Minh meant 2 1/2 million S. Viet. were sent to "re-education" (death) camps. Over a million fled into pirate-infested waters to get away from the N. Vietnamese takeover. Those collaterals came from the communists.

In Cambodia, Pot Pol killed 2 mllion. That'w where the phrase "killing fields" comes from. Those collaterals came from the communists.

The Gulf War was engendered by the UN. It was voted for by every Sec. Coun. member including China and Russia.

Iraq had violated 17 UN resolutions, thrown out the WMD inspectors, and was shooting at Brit. and Am. planes over demilitarized zones. Saddam starved his own people in the "oil for money" scandal and built palaces and used chem. weapons against the Kurds. US Senate voted for regime change in Iraq in 1998, at Clinton;s request, and the invations of Iraq was voted by the US Senate in 2003 at Bush' request.

How many Iraqis have died since 2003 is not known, but 1000s have been killed by al Qaida and their own fellow Iraqis. Saddam is est. to have killed 1-2 million from his seizure of power in 1980. He threw infants off buildings and fed children into shredders to enforce his tyranny.

We said after Hitler in 1945: Never again.

The "sanctions" never worked, And they were UN sanctions, not Am.

Am. haters should take themselves some place compatible like Venezuela, which will shortly have starving citizens because Chavez can't run the oil industry and his gov't ec. programs will soon wreck the ec. Since free press is dead there, Am. haters will feel right at home.

uh, uber
...Do you make any distinction between the morally innocent and morally guilty? Killing isn't wrong in and of itself. I use bug spray on hornets. I stomp on ants. I support the death penalty being used for murderers. And yet I object to any deliberate killing of non-combatants in war, object to the killing of the unborn, and object to all acts of murder against those already born.

Don't fight on the basis of the form of the act. Do or don't advocate for or against something on the basis of its context.

Fanatics of all stripes are nuts
But Star Parker's article is just silly.

Most people are disgusted by partial birth abortions and about half the population is against abortions except to save the life of the mother. So her article doesn't even convey the facts of public opinion about abortion correctly.

But of course you can find extreme groups on either side of an issue. The fact that PETA believes silly things about animals doesn't mean that we should not prosecute and make an example of Vick and others who violate laws and get their kicks by torturing and killing them.

Star Parker and Vick need to sit back and think a bit about the image they are giving to young kids who see Vick as a role model. Is this behavior we want to see modeled by tens of thousands of young boys? Wanting to see Vick severely and publicly punished is not the same as "thirsting for his destruction".

The question is not even valid
Vick can be cured of his cruelty towards animals. PETA on the other hand has been a sickness from the get-go, and is curable only by a total shutdown of the organisation!

PETA IS A RADICAL LIBERAL ORG

.....Peta believes that animals are equal to or superior to humans and that they have rights ...exactly how they were conferred these rights is not clear ...perhaps a Great Dane put his paw print on an animal Magna Carta ...

.....Peta is the same group that once compared the killing of chickens for human consumption to the Holocaust and spray paints women who wear fur ...the fact that this radical group has so much political clout is disturbing ...

.....Peta is one of the reasons behind the lynch mob frenzy surrounding Vick and the force pushing for maximum jail time and concessions from the NFL ...maybe a nice big fat contribution to their cause ...

.....Maybe Vick was guilty of cruelty to animals but I think cries for his head on a platter are way out of proportion to his offense ...I mean all he did was kill a few dogs ...is this worth jail and the loss of his means to make a living? ...I once ran over and killed a dog on the highway ...should I have been prosecuted for vehicular dog slaughter? .....COLLOSUS

i said these same things weeks ago
I wrote about this issue in a blog post titled "Vick Hysteria", and made much of the same arguements that Star is making. I also have had some of the same types of reactions that many of you are having now.

Many are saying that Star Parker is an apologist or trying to excuse Vick's behavior when she has done nothing of the sort. The entire point here is that as bad as dog fighting is, the outrage is far out of proportion to the crime. I raised the issue of the way Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, and Leonard Little were treated by the NFL and the fans when they were involved in the deaths of humans and drug dealing; there was none of this outrage and sustained assault on their images.

Too many are reacting emotionally, when the matter is a legal one that gets one step closer to resolution today. As bad as Vick's crimes were, he is not worthy of this type of recrimination, especially n light of the barbarity that we shrug our shoulders at everyday that involves humans.

"War is an ugly thing...
..."War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

ANIMAL CRUELTY?

....Do you want to see animal cruelty in action? ...watch an episode of Wild Kingdom or Animal Planet ...

.....Lions tearing the bowels out of Wilderbeest ...Crocs pulling frantic Zebras under water to drown ...jackals separating baby water buffaloes and elephants from their mothers so they can tear them to pieces and begin eating them while they are still living ...

.....I could go on and on but you get the point ...Nature is cruel and unforgiving ...animals do what they do naturally and without conscience ...it is humans that ascribe human emotions and feeling to animals ...

.....How many humans have been attacked ...mauled and killed by "pet" Pit Bulls that got loose in the neighborhood? ...and these savage dogs are then put to death by the SPCA ...the response of the dog owners is usually the same ..."I raised him from a pup ...he was always so gentle around the children" ...

....the dog was gentle until his animal killer instinct kicked in ...Pit Bulls are bred to fight ...why should anyone be surprised when they follow their instincts? ...

.....Rather than put Vick in jail for exploiting these dogs I think it would be more logical to outlaw and eliminate the breed altogether .....COLOSSUS

Jeannie
You expressed my sentiments exactly. Thank you.

To Flagwaver: I disagree with your sentiment that the punishment far outweighs the crime. First of all, it is a crime. Why shouldn't it
be punished. Especially because athletes are
role models, like it or not. Second any
psychiatrist will tell you that viciousness
towards animals is one of the surest signs of
viciousness towards humans also. Let the
psychiatric evaluation begin.

uber
So I'm assuming that you are not an environmentalist and do not believe in the natuarl order. If "killing animals is not moral", then should we not capture and cage all predatory animals (lions and tigers and bears...oh my!) on moralistic grounds? Afterall, are they not guilty of killing? Killing is just a part of the natural order and the prey are as dependent upon the predator as the predator is the prey. And from a strictly evolutionary point of view, the domestication of 'meat' animals is a huge success for the species in question. Without doubt there are far more chickens, pigs, and cows on the planet now than there would be if they had never been domesticated.

But let's do the logic...if "a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy", then mankind is just another part of the natural cycle. Therefore, killing the rat, pig, dog, or boy is just fine from a moralistic viewpoint. If, however, human beings are above/outside the natural order due to our superior intellect and morals, then a boy is of higher value than the pig. So this time, it is only okay to kill the rat, pig, or dog, but not the boy.

Now, since you called Christians 'relativists', let's add religion into the mix. The majority of the religions practiced in the world are of the second type listed above where humans are above/outside the natural order. So from their point of view, killing the child is much worse than killing the animals. But even those religions that view that any killing is 'bad' still allow the killing of plants, the use of antibiotics (which kill bacteria), and the purification of water by boiling and/or chemical treatment (which kill single celled animals). Therefore all religions are 'morally relativistic' with regard to killing. At least Christians state flat out that we believe that God put mankind at the top of the natural order and specifically allowed us to eat whatever we want (Acts 10). So while we may be relativits, at least we're not hypocrites.

Sadidtic Men Created Dog Fighting
When one uses the argument that Pit Bulls were bred for dog fighting, and therefore it is perfectly acceptable to use them for this purpose, either the person making this asinine argument is ignorant about dogs or is trying to fool the unsuspecting.

Pit bulls were produced bt breeding bulldogs with terriers. Bulldogs were used as a farm animal in England to help the farmer round up bulls, as well as to protect the farmer from a bull attack. Terriers were used to kill vermin. The bulldogs were used as fighting dogs by sadistic gamblers for sport. Dog fighting was oulawed in England in the early 1800's. The evil gamblers wanted a dog with a more stable temperament to be used for dog fighting, so the "referees" could handle a strane dog without being bitten. Thus the bulldog was bred to the Terrier.

Dogs are bred to be trained to perform certain functions based on the dog's physicak characeristics,and temperament. A smooth coated dog could not be used to retrieve waterfowl in icy Newfoundland waters. Thus a heavy coated dog that could withstand the icy waters was bred for this purpose. The dog is called a Newfoudland(Newfie).
Dogs have to be trained by man to perform the function for which they were supposedly bred. Pit Bulls do not emerge from the womb looking for a "pit" to enter for the purpose of attacking another dog. If the Pit Bull is to be used for dog fighting, it has to be trained by man. Thus, it is man that turns the Pit Bull into something the dog has no desire to be or do. The Pit bull has a stable temperament and makes a good pet. It is because of its stable temperament that it was used by those participating in illegal dog fighting. The pit bull was also used for herding bulls in the west.

No domesticated dog learns to do anything without being trained or influenced by man.

NFL should judge on Gambling!
I think the NFL is making a serious mistake punishing Vick for 'animal cruelty' per se.

Sure, everybody loves doggies and kitties but its not the NFL's place to punish anybody for being a meanie. Suppose he shot or stuck a pig or a chicken on his farm for his lunch? Only PETA would complain.

Gambling by a player however, especially a QB, has the potential to really hurt the game. He knew the rules. He's got to go! There are more QB's.

Who's going to watch the Super Bowl if there's even a suspicion that one of the QB's bet on the other team?

This episode is conditioning the public mind for 'animal rights'. Why is killing a cow/pig/chicken any more moral than flushing a kitten??

Anthony Thomas
Anthony Thomas wrote:
"It's funny,conservatives always say they want less government intervention. But this all changes when they want to force their beliefs on America, Leave Roe Vs Wade alone"

Sorry, but you're making sweeping a generalization here that is flat out wrong. Conservatives believe that Roe vs Wade was bad law...but for a variety. Now social conservatives believe that it was a bad ruling on a purely moralistic ground (i.e. that abortion is murder). However a very large number of conservatives believe that Roe v Wade was wrong on legalistic grounds alone; namely that the federal government has no constitutional standing on this issue and it should be left up to the individual states whether or not abortion should be legal. So those insisting upon keeping Roe v Wade in place are just as guilty about "government intervention" as the those calling for the federal government to outlaw abortion.

Baseballdoc
Has it all wrong. He states that the natural instinct for a pit bull is to fight. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

Pit bulls were and have to be trained to fight. If their natural instinct were to attack other dogs and to want to fight in a pit, they would not have to be trained, and Vick would not have to have killed those dogs that did not want to fight. If their natural instinct were as baseball doc suggests, then no pit bull could ever become a household pet or be shown in AKC sanctioned LEGAL dog sporting events.

If baseball doc were any more stupid, he'd have to be watered twice a week.

vick vs peta
vick is typical of pam,pered athletes. He thinks that his ability to play a game and the wealth derived somehow allows him a pass for truly wretched behavior. There is no doubt that people engage in violent sports but these are both controlled but a set of rules and that people elect to engage in them. These dogs however are not asked to volunteer to be participants but are forced into this cruel sport by various means of torture. With football no one is tackled and beat to death for making a lousy play or doing something that caused his team to meet defeat. That humans engage in dog torture speaks to a greater issue of something wrong with their psyche. Peta is nothing more than a misguided group effort that somehow thinks that pets are akin to humans. There is no reason for anyone to abusde pets but eating a stgyerak of wearing a leather belt is not some form of animal cruelty. These are essentially the same types of folks that flock to anything that is currently in vogue where similar vapid people get together to feel good about some cause they imagine is somehow injurious to othersw. I would hazzard a guess there is a strong membership connection between both peta and those flocking to alldull's current global warming scam

Vick & PETA
Vick should be punished for breaking the law. And punished for every law he broke, gambling, cruelty to animals, dogfighting, etc.

Do I think he should lose his "right to earn a living". No, but if the same thing happened to me, I'm quite sure that my job wouldn't be waiting for me when I got out of jail. Nor am I on the cover of cereal boxes or looked up to by children.

Should he get to play in the NFL again? No.

Go to the CFL, or the Arena League. Nowhere is it written that he has a right to make millions...

PETA on the other hand is a radical organization that pushes its agenda on everyone. At least Vick kept his crimes confined to fellow criminals that were willing to participate.

PETA's agenda is to make everyone bend to their will, by any means. Why they have ANY political clout or credibility is beyond me. Also, visit http://www.peta-sucks.com
There is a ton of information regarding exactly what these nutbags are about...

What does PETA have to do with this?
Dogfighting, as well as the atrocoties committed upon the losers, is already illegal. That's why Vick has been charged.

We don't need PETA's "help" with this.

PETA exists because PETA is dissatisfied that other things, that have nothing to do with dogfighting or the NFL, are not also illegal.

Let them confine their activism to promoting laws that aren't already on the books through legal methods and keep their big noses and pointy heads out of the NFL (and the Vick case).

The irony of it all.
Over the past year, I remember reading of no less than 5 different incidents involving PETA "rescuing" animals from animal shelters only to execute them immediately afterward and dumping their corpses in the nearest dumpster by the truckload.

PETA, like every other kooky commie "advocacy group" is not concerned one bit about what it is they scream about. They are concerned with 1) bilking individuals and corporations out of millions of dollars a year through extortion, and 2) vomiting left wing drivel. NOTHING else.

beowolf
I have only one comment to make about PETA

http\\www.petakillsanimals.com

Anthony Thomas
Not sure what abortion has to do with Vick.

But did you catch that stinker the Birds laid out in Pittsburgh last night??

Ugh....


An observation
An observation: Mr. Vick's many crimes were indeed despicable & apparently merit a 12-18 month prison term. However, a legal travesty has occurred in the shadow of the Vick controversy w/ little if any comment by the MSM: a certain woman-child, Mary Winkler, murdered her husband in cold blood, was convicted and only received a 6 month sentence after making unsubstantiated “DV” accusations against her murdered husband. Yet this injustice has yet to merit a comment by any ostensibly "conservative" pundit, especially the female-chauvinists who subscribe to the “woman=good/ men=bad” myth. The silence is deafening.

bluedog
Good site, PETA needs to be banned for it's behavior...

Sleazy Politician
You are correct! This is a major irritation of mine, as I have owned and loved three pit bulls, all of which were exemplary pets and none of which ever displayed any aggression toward other dogs or humans. And yet, despite their loving natures, our family is very careful to refer to our current pit, "Abby", as an AmStaff, because of the irrational fear that the pit bull moniker elicits.

And I so wish that Star and the Townhall reader "Skip" who commented on "disgusting" nature of Mixed Martial Arts would spend a little time & effort understanding the intricacies of my sport. I am a MMA fighter, and I do not try to "destroy" my opponent. I try to WIN! It is a sport of strength, conditioning, strategy and A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT of skill. In addition to boxing, greco-roman & freestyle wrestling, and kickboxing, which are skills that most people understand in at least a rudimentary way, we also train extensively in jiu jitsu, which is a martial art of such complexity (with thousands of maneuvers, counters, and counter-counters) that it's only comparitive skill is chess. Some in our sport actually refer to jiu jitsu as "kinetic chess", as it takes a decade or more to truly master the art.

Demosthenes
A complete miscarriage of justice.

Mr. Thomas: Really?
"Put simply, I believe they are all the same people and are simply looking for loopholes to get abortion banned in areas where most of the population maybe pro-life."

Even if “Roe vs. Wade” is overturned for being “bad law,” the issue will be transferred to the individual state legislatures as per the US Constitution’s original framers, i.e., 13 different little experiments. Hence, if you’re rabidly Pro-life, you can live in the Dakotas. If you want to employ abortion out of convenience (IAW 96% of the 1.4M annual abortions performed per year) , and feel morally superior for doing so, go live in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, i.e., a woman-child sleeps around, gets pregnant despite having access to dozen forms of birth control & uses abortion as retro-birth control. They can then wear a Ms. Magazine "I had an abortion" tee-shirt as though killing their child for convenience was some sort of sick feminist right of passage. You know the type.

logic vs perception
Logic vs perception. Our reaction to dog fighting, abortion, football, eating fish has nothing to do with logic. It has to do with how we perceive things; how we intuit. And when something of this sort affects a vast majority in certain manner it becomes a moral issue. The difference between a lion tearing its prey for food and two dogs tearing at each other for the pleasure of the onlooker affect people differently. One is perceived as unnecessary cruelty; the other as part of existence. This is not something subject to proof. Abortion is a mixed bag. Few would perceive the coil, which does abort, as extinguishing life or the morning after pill. And it is the perception that counts; not some abstract argument. And the further along the fetus and especially with ultra sound, the more people perceive it as immoral. But then again, in rape, it is sort of like the lion going after prey. It is an extraordinary event that is intuitively understandable. To a large extent our moral feelings come our experience in living and our human nature. Logic is secondary.

Sick Vick!!
Mike Vick lacks in Moral Character,as do the people who think that fighting dogs or killing animals for sport.We put these people on pedestals and think they are above the law of man.Maybe he should get his freedom after his sentence is served but should never be allowed to play in the NFL,the average person would not get his job or career back after a felony.Mike Vick new what he was doing and did not care until he was caught,he dose not deserve any sympathy and just because he has money dose not make him better than anybody else.He will say anything to get what he wants and has lied to keep his career.He did this for years and deserves a long sentence and dose not deserve any special treatment,and just because he is a football player dose not give him a pass at breaking the law.And watch how quickly they bring the race card out to excuse him for his actions as if thats an excuse for why he did what he did.They just tried to make what Vick did to what happened to Rodney king the same,so shame on ESPN for allowing this.

anthony need an education
Anthony states that people who are pro-choice are not pro-abortion. That is a half-truth. It is like saying people who are not racist can be in favor of pro-choice of states deciding whether to have segregation.

To be pro-choice in abortion means you approve of people making a choice to abort or as some on this thread would say kill or murder.

To be pro-states rights re segregation, even tho you might not want to do so, is sanction such.

I guess you dont an educatoin; I have done it for you. Reading your prior posts, this might be too abstract for you. You want your cake and eat it too.

Stoic Patriot-RoscoedTx
Uber entertains us daily with his absurdity.

eating dog meat?
So if my neighbor invites me for dinner and in the middle tells me I am eating his dog, whom I had friendly interaction with over the years, I throw up or gag or get upset. Why? I eat cow meat; pork meat; fish. It makes my prior point of logic vs perception. We experience it differently and a vast marjority in this country do which makes it a moral issue. Yet, in China or Korea, the experience is different. And that is why revulsion to Vick. If dogs could fight with boxing gloves, no sweat and when the bell rang to signal the end, they sniffed each other, no sweat.

I Wonder
How many PETA member/employees wear leather shoes or enjoy a good steak? I wonder how many Aquatic Creatures PETA killed while building their waterfront headquarters? PETA are Liberal Moonbats in need of medication and a Reality Check.

anthony
Does that mean you agree with me?

over the top
PETA is a group that probably does more to hurt its cause by the extremity it takes its views to than it helps it. But it is hard to see what in that makes it comparable to Vick's cruelty to animals, one point on which PETA is on the right side.

It does seem that given its extreme view on animal rights it should be anti-abortion from conception or soon after, but I don't know if it takes a stand on the issue.

Parker makes herself look somewhat silly, though, by ignoring obviously relevant factors like (as one, but as far as I can tell only one person above noted) that human fighters consent to being fighters. Similarly porn stars consent to appearing in porn movies. So the fact that PETA is glad to have a porn star who dates an extreme fighter is not an example of their hypocrisy.

Similarly Singer's view is one that balances interests according to the kinds of criteria mentioned. To say that he values animals more than humans is simply a distortion of his view. He does oppose gratituos cruelty to animals more than decisions about some humans in difficult situations. But there is no situation in which he would value animal life over human, and many in which he would value human over animal.

I don't share Singer's views on ethics with regard to animals, but I do think they should be answered by describing them accurately rather than misdescribing them.

peta
Is this the same PETA that ran around veterinarians offices in Virginia a few years ago, collecting dogs and cats in a van, killing the dogs and cats in the van, and dumping the corpses in the nearest dumpster? Is this THAT PETA??? They shouldn't even be in the conversation, quite frankly, since they have zero/zip/nada/absolutely no credibility. And the point being made by Ms. Parker was simply, we agonize over the killing of dogs, but we just shrug our shoulders about abortion? Even in a moral relativist world, these two should at the very least be on a par with each other. Liberals have no soul, plain and simple.

len
The whole boxing glove comparison assumes that the dogs have a choice whether to fight or sniff each other's butts.

Do you think if they understood that if they lose a fight they get drowned or electrocuted, don't you think they'd run away?

Anthony Thomas
says "Not everyone can just pick up and move to another state. And despite your ignorant generalizations of woman who receive abortions, some woman are actually raped our molested." Well, actually, it's a pretty good generalization. According to this site http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html , less than 2 percent of all abortions performed are for reasons of rape, incest, molestation, or life/health risks. 98% are for elective reasons, i.e., it's too inconvenient for my current lifestyle to have a baby. Get your facts straight, Anthony, and do a little research before you post your "ignorant generalizations".

sgpi
"Is this the same PETA that ran around veterinarians offices in Virginia a few years ago, collecting dogs and cats in a van, killing the dogs and cats in the van, and dumping the corpses in the nearest dumpster? Is this THAT PETA???"

One and the same. Also, doesn't one of their members support a plan to kill off a billion or so humans so animals could have more space?

Anthony Thomas
"I just disagree fundamentally with the conservative ideology."

And you are entitled to do so in this country.

May I ask why you disagree? Is it because "Million upon millions" disagree? Or is there a true reason?

What do you agree with? Abortions are OK, so dogfighting should be OK?

Abortions are an acceptable form of birth control?

Personal responsibility isn't for everyone?

Cuda...
hang on, Anthony has to get his liberal talking points straight before he answers you.

sgpi
But wait, look in the sky!

It's a bird!

It's a plane!

No it's super-tool rocker to the rescue!!

Anthony
No, you never said those were the "only" reasons women have abortions, but those were the "only" reasons you stated. And yes, I did read Demosthenes characterization of women who have abortions, and really can't find much fault there. If 96-98% of a population does something morally repugnant because it's convenient, and you think that's ok, then you might want to double-check on that soul you said you had the last time you checked.

rocker
So how do you feel about black hunters?

Or is your humble opinion as racist as the rest of you is retarded?

anthony=thought questions
you say you disagree with the conservative ideology which implies you agree with the liberal ideaology. So explain the following:

1. What is the conservative ideology on retirment for old age; that is how we should deal with what is social security; and what is the liberal ideaology; compare the two in which one is more effective for the futre

2. What is the conservataive on affirm action as practiced in such cases where black students are given extra points on their SAT. What is the liberal position.

3. Is thre a conservative postion on the war in Iraq and what is it? IS there a liberal position, and what is it?

That is enough for now.



anthony
MAary Q uses no birth control; you know condoms, pills. But every time she gets pregnant she has an abortion.

Question: Is not Mary Q using abortion as birth control?
Is not the purpose of a condom, birth control pills, and abortion the same:
To prevent the birth of a child.

End of lesson.

Anthony Thomas
"If you choose not to be personally responsible, that's your choice. I would hope that more people were more personally responsible."

If you choose not to be responsible for your actions, there has to be consequences, not some fast-food, drive-thru abortion to make you even less responsible.

Your statement suggests you want chaos, or rather, a free-for-all mentality.

If I choose to break your jaw, is that OK?

Of course not. I have to be responsible, not just "hope to be responsible"

Time to grow up a little bro. People need to be held accountable for their actions. They need to be taught as children that they are responsible for their decisions.

anthony is a genius; parker is an idiot
PArker saw a similarity in dog fighting until the death and abortion. And anthony says she is stupid.

First, they do both involve killing. So there is that similarity. They do both involve the death of innocent creatures for the selfish benefit of others. I dont use selfish necessarily in a negative light.

the fact that there are differences is beside the point; parker is entitled to make that analogy and it is not way out because it will connect with many people.

The fact that you anthony might not see a similarity between a rock and you hand, does not mean that some of us are not able to abstract out simarilities. Test: What does a rock and a hand have in common? These are the kind of questions on the Miller Analogies test to get into College and law school. Parket is not stupid

rocker
You are so stupid I can't even respond to any more of your posts.

Have a nice life...

anthony
i give up on you; if you are an egs of affirm action of getting out of college; that does not speak well for affirm action.

Clearly, you were not challanged to think. Your answer on social security is so out in left field as to what the debate is about. You dont even know the issues.

So long. Good luck. Even though you lack a good education, you still are a decent chap. Get a good tutor.

Anthony Thomas
"Our government has decided that abortion is legal, period."

I can't argue with this. You are right.

How do feel about rocker then?

He condemns hunters for doing something our government has declared legal.

I won't even ask you about his obvious racism either...

rocker
again mommy's boy spews nonsense. You hobby is enabling illegals. I suggest you stick to the only thing you truly care about. Hunting is both legal and necessary to amintain the balance of nature. Man has taken over the job of culling the over abundance of deer etc as the predators are either absent or unable to keep the herds in check. perhaps you should blame the farmers who help by planting crops which help feed these browsers. BTW did mommy clean your rooms and cook all your meals once again or are you finally at age 31 starting to assert some independence from mommy's apron strings

Anthony
"Our government has decided that abortion is legal, period." Well, no. Our government didn't, 5 men in black robes did. Until they did that, there was a discussion underway in the 50 state governments concerning abortion, and the decision by 5 men in black robes circumvented that discussion. Our government has never "decided" that abortion is legal, in the form of legislation to that effect, it was done in the form of an ukase, decreeing that abortion is legal "because we say it is, even though we can't find anything concrete to support our decision, we'll just make it up out of thin air" (I beleive the quote was "emanations of a penumbra"). Sounds rather Stalinist, wouldn't you say?

last on anthony
I said: So long. Good luck. Even though you lack a good education, you still are a decent chap. Get a good tutor.
_______
In anticipation of being called racist for the prior post, let me paraphrase from Walter Williams.
Williams failed one of his exams for Ph.D exams; his professor suggested he needs further education and gave him a reading list and offered to discuss such every week.

Note: the prof did not sugar coat the failure; blame racism; nor give him a break; he offered real affirm action in the form of helping him get smarter.

So see if you can find someone to do that so when you are asked what the issues are in the socilal security debate, you can articulate them and sound like you are with it. I felt sorry for you when I read your reply to the soc security queston.

wildwest
See, people like rocker simply choose to ignore facts about hunting.

They would rather watch thousands of animals die of starvation or be run down on the roads than actually accept that man is now responsible for maintaining populations of healthy animals.

They talk a good game about conservation, they might even go so far as to wear a t-shirt proclaiming their love of Mother Earth. But they won't take responsibility for true conservation. Hunters have done more to preserve both land and animals than any person like rocker could ever imagine.

So while we know better, rocker loses more brain cells.

Rocker
Must be finished watching cartoons. He is probably having lunch before he gets high. I wonder what his Mommy made him for lunch? I wonder if she cooks meat for him? Wouldn't that mean his Mommy was a cowardly killer?

sgpi
let us not get involved in silly hyperbole in calling the Roe decison stalinist.
First, the original Roe was 7 to 2; you said 5 to 4.

I suppose the Mormons might have called SCOTUS stalinist when in circa 1859 they upheld the bigamy law. And some in the South called the court stalinsit when they declared segratation illegal.
Your analogy is way off base and nothing but pure rhetoric.

i am not going to argue the abortion issue; but because you disagree dont have a temper tantrum.

hemi cuda
for clarification I am a not hunter but I do understand the reality of nature. I grew up in the city and had trouble killing a mouse that my cat had tortured but wouldn't finish off. I have many friends who hunt to put food on the table and they tell me the importance of the clean kill shot. Anyone who thinks nature is this great pure existence that has been fouled by man is living in a dream world. These nature freaks make everything worse. Forest fires and over populations are the two most stark examples of those who think they can fix nature only end up f*cking everything up. I assume you hunt and there are probably many farmers who are greatful for keeping the herds culled. One farmer told me that in the county he lived in they shot 20,000 deer a year. He said it sounded like a lot but they had a growing deer problem. But I would guess that if these cry baby libs were ever forced to live in nature where they had to live off the land for survival they would be confronted with the realities of becoming a predator or becoming prey. I suggest they would probably revert to the fetal position awaiting their end

georgetwin
I reserve the right to make fun of rocker at every ludicrous posting he makes. I suggest others do likewise. Perhaps we can drive his ilk back to the welcoming arms of kos where he finds secondary nurturing after mommy tends to his primary needs

Stoic Patriot
"Do you make any distinction between the morally innocent and morally guilty?"

Yes

"Killing isn't wrong in and of itself."

I disagree it is wrong in and of itself. At least willful killing. The kind Humans do.

"I use bug spray on hornets. I stomp on ants. I support the death penalty being used for murderers."

How does this support your case. To me it simply reflects you lack of a moral compos.

"And yet I object to any deliberate killing of non-combatants in war, object to the killing of the unborn, and object to all acts of murder against those already born."

Yeah murder... And what is murder?

"Don't fight on the basis of the form of the act. Do or don't advocate for or against something on the basis of its context."

The means in the case of killing is the ends, because of it's finality.

wildwest
I do hunt, and I eat what I kill.

Where I live there are several herds of white tail deer numbering in the hundreds of thousands. I'd say that as many deer are killed by automobiles as by hunting each year.

I learned a respect for nature, to work to preserve as much of it as I can through responsible population control and conservation. For example, a huge landfill was recently converted to wetlands. It is a complete success and has an abundant waterfowl population where before there were none.

As for rocker, I also reserve the right to shoot down (pun intended) his silly rhetoric. he is a complete fool with no knowledge, common sense, or intelligence in these matters.

uber
"I disagree it is wrong in and of itself. At least willful killing. The kind Humans do."

So predators in the wild don't willfully kill their prey? They do it by accident?

"Yeah murder... And what is murder?"

Murder per dictionary.com:
"the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson"

What does this have to do with your views other than to expose your lack of comprehension. Do you have the ability to differentiate between humans and animals? Do you think we are equals??

If I run over a squirrel, should I go to jail for manslaughter...err...squirrelslaughter?

For Anthony Thomas
Unfortunately, PETA has never understood the "ethical" portion of its name-acronym. The organisation HAS NONE (as it proved in 2001 by claiming whalemeat consumption as acceptable, and that whales feel "bliss" when harpooned)!!!

As I said, it was/is sick right from the start, and not curable except through a shutdown! Vick, on the other hand, can be cured (editor's note: he has been dropped by NFL and is now claiming to have been "born-again"; if he truly is, then he is cured) of cruel tendencies.

Gee Lady, You're SOOOOO Dumb .....
So now we're now back to the same old conservative saw-- when in doubt, some liberal group must be to blame for it. Never mind that Michael Vick indulged something incredibly cruel and stupid which still defies logic. The comparison between grown men who have made a conscious decision to play a potentially dangerous sport and pit bulls who have no say in the matter is just plain dumb! Also football players are well trained and well protected when they step on to the field. Football players are well taken care of when they're injured. The same can't be said of pit bulls who either fight to the or are put to when they can't fight anymore.

But of course, clueless Star Parker has to blame some liberal group like PETA for Vick's woes because some star is one of their backers.

Twinkle, twinkle little Star. You are either sooooo dumb or just another typical stupid conservative.

roscoedtx
"So I'm assuming that you are not an environmentalist and do not believe in the natuarl order."

I am not an environmentalist.

"If "killing animals is not moral", then should we not capture and cage all predatory animals (lions and tigers and bears...oh my!) on moralistic grounds? Afterall, are they not guilty of killing? Killing is just a part of the natural order and the prey are as dependent upon the predator as the predator is the prey. And from a strictly evolutionary point of view, the domestication of 'meat' animals is a huge success for the species in question. Without doubt there are far more chickens, pigs, and cows on the planet now than there would be if they had never been domesticated."

How true.... And this domestication is a waist of resources since it take many more archers to produce a pound of meat that to produce a pound of vegetable protean.

But as for caging, no I believe we are each responsible for our own moral choices, but we have a right to self defense.

i.e. it is immoral for me to kill. It may be necessary for me to do so when a lion attacks me. The lion has to make it's own moral judgment. I am not my lions or brothers keeper. I am not responsible for holding him accountable. He is accountable to himself.

Morality governs what is socially most beneficial, not what it naturally possible or even expedient and necessary.

Your assumption is that laws are moral. And that enforcing morality is necessary and moral. I say it is not. Because laws deny individuals moral autonomy.

part ii

"But let's do the logic...if "a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy", then mankind is just another part of the natural cycle."

Yes

"Therefore, killing the rat, pig, dog, or boy is just fine from a moralistic viewpoint."

Yes... But not from a moral viewpoint.

"If, however, human beings are above/outside the natural order due to our superior intellect and morals, then a boy is of higher value than the pig. So this time, it is only okay to kill the rat, pig, or dog, but not the boy."

Not at all.... Superiority does not change obligation. If anything it makes the superior agent more responsible for his actions. We hold adults to a higher standard than children because of there greater faculty.

"Now, since you called Christians 'relativists', let's add religion into the mix. The majority of the religions practiced in the world are of the second type listed above where humans are above/outside the natural order. So from their point of view, killing the child is much worse than killing the animals. But even those religions that view that any killing is 'bad' still allow the killing of plants, the use of antibiotics (which kill bacteria), and the purification of water by boiling and/or chemical treatment (which kill single celled animals). Therefore all religions are 'morally relativistic' with regard to killing. At least Christians state flat out that we believe that God put mankind at the top of the natural order and specifically allowed us to eat whatever we want (Acts 10). So while we may be relativits, at least we're not hypocrites."

What ever makes you feel good about predicating your life on a superstition.

Hemi_Cuda
"So predators in the wild don't willfully kill their prey? They do it by accident?"

Human's do. But many other predators don't. They don't ecsersize free will. They seam enable to change their feeding habits. That is true regardless of environmental pressures. Many predators can't even change their feeding strategy when their primary food source is under pressure.

"What does this have to do with your views other than to expose your lack of comprehension. Do you have the ability to differentiate between humans and animals? Do you think we are equals??"

I don't believe that this dichotomous representation is real.

"If I run over a squirrel, should I go to jail for manslaughter...err...squirrelslaughter?"

No... You should try not to run over squirrels or people.
But I don't think if you hit a child and you did everything n your power to not hit him, that you should go to jail either.

So what is your point? You have no moral obligation to animals, but you might to a fertilized egg?

Either we have an obligation to both or to neither.

But lets ask a different question. What if you had an equal moral obligation to all animals. Would this make our world better or worse?

rocker the stupid
animal populations rely on predators to keep their populations under control. In most areas the removal of wolves, bears mountain lions have allowed deer species to grow uncontrolled. Nature doesn't balance itself when man has upset the natural order. But I guess morons like you just need to tell the deer to slow down their breeding instincts and all will be fine. But what if bambi tells your ilk to keep out of their breeding rituals. How do you suggest society responds to over populations. If you are worried about hunters shooting innocent animals how about roaming in the woods wearing an antler hat during hunting season. You could ease some of the pressure off bambi

Way, Way out Today

I got stuck on the line, animals should not provide entertainment.

Do they mean no more Lassie movies, Old Yellar.??. Just what the heck is no more entertainment. My kids and every kid I ever knew came to love dogs and cats and other animals due to the entertainment given by watching them.

For sure there can be no North American Union, what with the bull fighting in Mexico. Cocka- doodle doo fighting isn't exactly legal, but nobody goes after them for cockadoodle doo fighting, just for other illegalities like shooting the guests.

Should we vacate and shut down all the zoos.??. Make Animal Planet channel shut down.??. Or maybe we should take the advice of child killer, Pete Singer, one step farther, and kill all the PETA people who are so upsetting the rest of us.

Gosh, I guess I am going to need a whole new set of rules and moralities. Or move to H out of a country gone mad (crazy).

They made me take out the word c*ck which is a male chicken. Chicken supporters arise. The male of the species is on the endangered species list.


Vick could have walked
All Michael Vick had to do was describe his strangling and drowning of his dogs as "performing extremely
late term abortions" and he would have walked free.

uber

""But lets ask a different question. What if you had an equal moral obligation to all animals. Would this make our world better or worse?""

Not sure what you are driving at. There are basically two sets of rules, worldwide for the most part.

You don't mistreat pets. Nor do you mistreat animals which are in husbandry. You are allowed to kill all animals, if necessary, for food, protection or as a means of putting it out of misery. Some civilizations still have an older set of rules that permits "fighting" as entertainment, but also as a lesson in reality.

I see a strong connection among those who protect animals to the "extreme", and those who have almost no respect for humans. A trip to the hinterlands of say, Iraq and following around Al Qaeda for a few weeks would probably cure the PETA people of their obsessions.


rocker the moron
we don't stop you from coming to these fights unarmed. You babble like like little girl just cut from the cheer leading tryouts. You think you had the skills to make the teram but your presence merely provides momentary humor always at your own expense. You are lucky to live in a country were stupidity is not a criminal offense. Otherwise you would be serving a quadrupal life sentence

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid...
"always amuses me when these "man vs nature" hunters wear full camo, hide with a high powered rifle and kill a helpless, defenseless animal from afar for fun. How macho is that? even a 5 year old could do that. how about fighting with a spear or knife to make the match a little fairer."

With each subsequent post, the bar for idiocy is raised....

wildwest
"Nature doesn't balance itself when man has upset the natural order."

So dear would live forever if hunters didn't kill them? That is the first I ever hear that.

How about catching and neutering male dear, that wouldn't slow down the population growth.

Are you saying it would be less fun for marksmen to get a license to shoot dear with a tranquilizer and then neuter and tag them?

Conservatives constantly complain about how society has no sense of responsibility yet they espouse a doctrine were humans are relived of all responsibility.

wildwest
Do you think rocker actually pays attention to anything?

There are dozens of sites that support what I've said, think that idiot would take a look and admit that he's completely wrong?

Of course not, that would mean he can reason and use facts and logic.

I can't believe how stupid some people are and still have the ability to vote....

Hemi_Cuda-WildWest
It is getting hard to tell them apart and/or who is the stupidest. Rocker or Uber!

Hey Rocker
We're trying to get to your point of view but we can't get our heads that far up our butts.

Maybe you should change your handle to Whiner. It's more apropos...

uber
First of all, it's "deer" not "dear", unless you have a crush on wildwest.

"How about catching and neutering male dear, that wouldn't slow down the population growth."

This would not keep the male deer from eating the food that young populations need to survive.

Also, all the hunters in my group eat what they kill. we all come home with meat for our families' tables.

Have you ever hunted? Know anything about it other than you think it's "icky"?

I'd prefer if you just went back to ignoring what you think is "icky" and leave people alone. Because other than telling people what to do with their lives, liberals want nothing more to do with them....

Georgetwin
uber presents his case in a thought-out manner.

But his case is completely wrong.

rocker is just one of the dumbest people on the planet....

The NFL
to be renamed the National Felon League. Populated by overpaid and overpampered black thugs who think that they're like OJ, above the law.

Vick has a criminal past going back to his teens. Hope that he has a nice time in prison.

PETA and AR
The concept of applying moral constructs like rights, to and among vast populations of amoral creatures, is beyond practicability.

PETA and other high profile Animal Rights orgs, are thriving, growth businesses, which remain tax-exempt.

Thanks to Vick's unconscionable and insensitive behavior toward his dogs, PETA and their radical ilk, now have a bully pulpit, from which to alter the public perception of the obscenity that they actually are.

The endgame for PETA and their ilk, is the complete extinction of domestic animals, and the outlawing of men from interaction of any sort with others. They hold animals to be on the same existential plane as your children. Their dogma that sentience (the ability to feel pain), rather than higher reasoning ability and morality, is the basis for the conference and/or existence of rights, is patently absurd. That no population of animals, other than humans, has ever evolved a code of morals or ethics, despite their sentience, seems to have escaped their notice.

Since rights are what protect us from the use of force against us, contrary to our will, let's note that animals survive, and always have survived, by using their instincts, and by either exerting mortal force against one another, or by escaping from that exertion of force. The lion does not commit an immoral act or a crime by disemboweling and eating the antelope, who possesses no "right" to drink, unmolested, from the waterhole, where the lion lays in wait.

Sadly, the emotionally-disordered philosophies of PETA, will not receive the scrutiny and debunking that they so richly deserve, in light of the emotionally super-charged Vick fiasco. The debasement of humanity, by legally equating it to the varied animal realms, is what they promise.

Vick has affirmed their self-loathing, and helped them immeasurably in their ongoing campaign of human debasement.

Rocker
Before you comment on Hunters you should TRY to learn a little bit about hunters & hunting.

1st. Commos are worn by bow hunters.
Wearing commos during rifle season is unsafe.

2nd. If you had ever held a rifle of any sort you would know that a 5 year old child would have difficulty running up and down hills with one.

3rd. Your living at home with mama does not give you the world experience needed to comment on anything beyond your mom's TV set

Please, no more "logic" like this
PETA makes no claim about how bad abortion is. While an organization fights one wrong (such as animal cruelty), what its members may (or may not) think about another wrong (abortion) is irrelevant. PETA is not engaging in any "twisted logic." Rather, the author is focusing on something irrelevant.

Dogfighting is wrong, and even if you don't like the "lefties" that make up PETA, they are at least right about this one. Abortion, mixed martial arts, and all the other crap the author throws into the discussion are different issues. Let's stay focused.

uber
It's called Animal Management and if the herds AREN'T managed, they starve, they get diseases, predators suffer from the imbalance, etc. In fact, I'll harvest a nice buffalo in the fall of 09. Yummy.

I was involved in feeding herds of deer back in the 70's in Colorado after a harsh winter started killing them.

It was your liberal Goddess Gaia doing the killing and man rescuing. Of course any action would exclude you liberals since it's far easier for you to b*tch, moan, and groan vice actually DOING anything to help.

Also
This is about Vick and PETA, not hunting.

Hunting is totally legal and in many ways necessary to the survival of many species.

This is a fact.

PETA on the other hand is just a radical, fascist organization that wants everyone else to conform to their twisted view of things. Why they even get any credibility after all their cruelty to animals exposure is just baffling.

Michael Vick will go to jail for his crimes. he will lose/has lost all of his sponsors. No one respects the guy.

He is being punished for his crimes, about time PETA was punished for their lies...

St. Georgetwin uber alles
"It is getting hard to tell them apart and/or who is the stupidest. Rocker or Uber!"

Georgetwin attacks our idea. Quote "you are a stupid head!"
Uber says "Oh you got me again with making a stupid head fallacy." And thus Georgetwin, did vanquish dissenters and their was much rejoicing, group think and stove piping.

Jawls
"Dogfighting is wrong, and even if you don't like the "lefties" that make up PETA, they are at least right about this one. Abortion, mixed martial arts, and all the other crap the author throws into the discussion are different issues. Let's stay focused."

I have a hard time agreeing with anything PETA does on any level. But I will say that Vick deserves their wrath...

PETA is a small group of people trying to tell a vastly larger group of people what they can and can't do. Going so far as to throw paint on people, burn down buildings, etc. They are out of control and need to be knocked down a few pegs.

uber
"Georgetwin attacks our idea. Quote "you are a stupid head!"

There is so much wrong with your "ideas" that it's difficult to sort through any of them enough to properly dissect them.

Easier to call a spade a spade...

oh my
I think I’m Michael Vicked out. Seriously, I don’t think I can concentrate on this thread or on the Vick part of Prelutski’s. Forget the comparison, PETA are extremists and they operate on a most irrational level

Hemi_Cuda
"Because other than telling people what to do with their lives, liberals want nothing more to do with them."

Excuse me but I am not telling you what to do. I am making an argument that killing animals is immoral. Whether you think that holding such a position would mean you shouldn't kill animals is your business.

I don't think it is moral for society to morally censure people. The reason you interpret me as telling you what to do, is because that reflects your beliefs.

I don't even care if your question...
...is rhetorical. The fact that you posed it shows your ignorance Ms.Parker.

Michael Vick is a sociopath with classic symptoms including the torture and killing innocent animals for enjoyment in the most heinous methods imaginable.

PETA folks, while often ridiculous, don't torture animals.

Anyone posted this yet?

uber
"Excuse me but I am not telling you what to do. I am making an argument that killing animals is immoral. Whether you think that holding such a position would mean you shouldn't kill animals is your business."

Excuse me, but your assertion is not an argument, rather your opinion, and not a very informed one at that.

Perhaps resisting the urge to wax morality on a subject upon which you know little to nothing would suit you best.

Ex-Tex
"PETA folks, while often ridiculous, don't torture animals."

Beg to differ.

Please google the PETA death van....

Ex-Tex
That being said, I'd like to see how Vick would fair in the ring with a pitbull or 2...

uber
"Excuse me but I am not telling you what to do. I am making an argument that killing animals is immoral. Whether you think that holding such a position would mean you shouldn't kill animals is your business."
----------------
So, you don't wear leather gloves? leather shoes? eat meat? etc?

Animals are not on the same plane as humans. Sorry, that idea is pure crap. How many animals have written literary works? Gave speeches? Wingnuts like you and the rest of PETA say that animals are on the same plane as Shakesphere, Galileo, Caesar, Dr Walter Reed, make me want to projectile vomit.

Not to mention that NOTHING smells as good as a buffalo steak over mesquite.

ex-tex
Nice try but facts are facts.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

No, they don't torture them, they just gas em like the Nazis did. I wonder if those animals that PETA says are on the same plane as humans can reason and understand when the gas hits em?

GunnyG
"It's called Animal Management and if the herds AREN'T managed, they starve, they get diseases, predators suffer from the imbalance, etc. In fact, I'll harvest a nice buffalo in the fall of 09. Yummy."

Oh please many conservatives would let a human starve to death, deny them healthcare because of the choices they make. Now you are arguing that we have a moral obligation for animals to not suffer the natural consequences?

As I stated there are more humane ways of doing this, regardless of your contradictory arguments for moral obligation to man and beast.

And predators? A second ago we were hunting because there were no predators, now the argument is we are hunting to save the predators?

"I was involved in feeding herds of deer back in the 70's in Colorado after a harsh winter started killing them."

I'm sure you did.

"It was your liberal Goddess Gaia doing the killing and man rescuing. Of course any action would exclude you liberals since it's far easier for you to b*tch, moan, and groan vice actually DOING anything to help."

There are no goddesses. They were dying of natural causes, and now that you interfered with the "natural order", your using that as your excuse to interfered with the "natural order" again. i.e. kill them.

It's convent how circular that line of reasoning is.

The Supreme Court, abortion, and GWB
The original 'vote' in Roe vs. Wade was 6-3. In writing the majority opinion Justice Henry Blackmun, a judicial weenie of the first order, stated that the government has no interest in whether an unborn fetus is a human. He then (seemingly) contradicted himself (as weenies inevitably do) by declaring that laws prohibiting abortion during the first 6 months of pregnancy were unconstitutional.

Apparently the "government" has yet to declare abortion "legal" in the last three months. It also has not declared it illegal (speaking of weenies).

The SCOTUS vote to stop Florida's recount was 7-2, not 5-4. The 5-4 vote ordered Florida to certify the election in accordance with the results recorded after the initial recount.

Bush was eventually found to be the winner even if the votes were counted the way Al Gore wanted them counted, which is what the Supreme Court of Florida (aka "SCOFLA") ordered.

So no, 5 judges did not make GWB Prez. The votes of the people, upheld in accordance with the Constitution, made GWB Prez.

Johnny Tango

""Johnny Tango writes: Monday, August, 27, 2007 2:51 PM
PETA and AR
The concept of applying moral constructs like rights, to and among vast populations of amoral creatures, is beyond practicability. ""
----------------------------------------------------
Thanks Johnny for the best write up of the day.

The truth be told, in living color, on all accounts.


uber
" Now you are arguing that we have a moral obligation for animals to not suffer the natural consequences?"

So you'd rather let them starve to death than allow hunter to take them for food? That is not only cruel, but positively senseless.

"They were dying of natural causes, and now that you interfered with the "natural order", your using that as your excuse to interfered with the "natural order" again. i.e. kill them."

This is such a baseless statement. We ARE a part of the natural order. Weren't you the one that said we were part of the natural cycle earlier? Now you're saying we're some alien entity laying waste to foreign lands??

Since we are a part of the natural order of things so there is no way we can interfere. Whether you choose to accept that what you hold to be true just isn't or not, doesn't matter anymore.

Also
How in the world do you equate drowning and electrocuting dogs to hunting?

Only someone with a twisted sense of morality would make that connection.

hemi cuda and georgetwin
libs can't understand hunting because they are afraid of guns. Guns are nasty evil killing impliments that have a mind of their own. But put a gun in the hand of a crazed conserv and you start to worry about the world coming to an end. The combination of a conserv with no brains or self control and a gun that randomly kills and all hell breaks loose. I guess that is why the libs are always for gun control. They must keep the santuaries in San Fran, mass, ann arbor, wisconsin and oregon safe from possible invasion.

wildwest
It always comes down to guns, doesn't it?

We can't lose focus on this thread though. Vick is a criminal and will be punished, while a radical and hypocritical group like PETA gets to sell t-shirts to kids.

Anthony Thomas
"Hold on, hunting is just as inhuman as dog fighting. Let's not have a double standard here."

That's completely absurd. Again, you suffer from the same delusion as uber. You both want to take some moral high ground on a subject that neither of you have a clue about.

"So shooting a poor defenseless deer or bird is ok? Or you kidding me?"

Your use of the words "poor" and "defenseless" are nothing but inflamatory rhetoric.

What about the deer that starve to death because their fpopulation is out of control? Imagine a "poor" deer lying in a gully for a week while it starves. Isn't that more cruel than hunting?

Also, please educate yourself with the facts regarding hunting, conservation, and wildlife before injecting your emotinal, irrational posits...

Hemi_Cuda writes:
"uber presents his case in a thought-out manner."

All polishing a turd will get you is a shiny turd.

Also Anthony
You don't have a firm grasp on what hunting is about. It just seems as though you've stumbled upon the liberal "feel good" morality handbook and gone lavida-loca with it.

You should get someone to take you hunting, whether it be for bird or deer or whatever. Most of the time I don't get close enough to get a decent shot off, it's just the experience that is so seminal.

I imagine you have this picture in your head of a hunter. Some Rambo type with a savage blood-lust. Shoots animals and leaves their carcasses where they drop. Laughs with demonical joy at the death of an animal.

Not even close dude. Not even close...

nam65 nailed it ...
Vick is being crucified by extralegal forces beyond his control and the only problem with Nam's solution is that "doing the time" won't necessarily solve all of Vick's (endorsement money) problems for him. being away from the game is also tough as Mike Tyson sort of proved.

his situation is one of those interesting aspects of the winner take all economy that is in place in the pro sports and entertainment fields.

he was making more money because he was part of this entertainment, famous celebrity, winner take all economy ... but the fact is that those quarterback endorsement dollars are also tied to "good behavior" and 'q' rating but in a somewhat nebulous way if you compare incomes of the following good/bad celebrities and their relative talents for what they're famous for:

Lindsay Davenport and Anna Kournikova
Maria Sharapova and Justine Henin
Paris Hilton and Marie Osmond
Joe Namath and Len Dawson
any rapper who hasn't murdered anyone vs. Christopher Cross

Vick's crossover q-appeal is gone no matter how much "time" he does to atone for his "sins" which are mainly in the eyes of the PC, dog lover, and PETA beholders rather than the core sports fans who appreciate athleticism regardless of what happens "off the field."

Against moral relativity
"Wingnuts like you and the rest of PETA say that animals are on the same plane as Shakesphere, Galileo, Caesar, Dr Walter Reed, make me want to projectile vomit."

And a Zygote is? My argument is that if killing an impregnated Zygote is morally wrong (as I do) so is killing an animal.

"wear leather gloves? leather shoes? eat meat? etc?"

Right I don't do those things.

Georgetwin
LOL

Well said....

peta
a couple of years ago peta tried suing KFC over their "treatment" of chickens. I was talking to a farmer about this and some looney lib next to us claimed she was so excited about the lawsuit because chickens were such beautiful sensitive animals. The farmer asked her if she lived on a farm which of course she never had. The farmer told her there is no more vicious stupid animal than a chicken that will peck each other to death for no apparent reason. She called him a liar and stomped away. Peta has always maintained that animals are far more valuable than humans. And in peta's case that is true. Many animals especially those at the bottom rung of animal intelligence, namely turkeys and camels, are more intelligent than your average peta adherent.

uber
"And a Zygote is? My argument is that if killing an impregnated Zygote is morally wrong (as I do) so is killing an animal."

Again, this is your opinion only, and not an informed one. While I agree that dogfighting is cruel and wrong, and the disposal of losing dogs is worse. I do not equate that with hunting, as do you. These are 2 mutually exclusive things that liberals love to pile together in the same morally supperior stew. Pure rubbish when countered with reason and facts.

"wear leather gloves? leather shoes? eat meat? etc?"

Right I don't do those things.

Sure you don't....

On Record
"Bush was eventually found to be the winner even if the votes were counted the way Al Gore wanted them counted, which is what the Supreme Court of Florida (aka "SCOFLA") ordered"

His source is the state of Florida, the NYT and any number of other articles. It didn't get front page news but all parties concerned published that the votes over and over came out for Bush....most importantly for you, your party, the Democrats completely conceded it in all papers of record.

Hemi_Cuda
"So you'd rather let them starve to death than allow hunter to take them for food? That is not only cruel, but positively senseless."

I would rather feed them and then sterilize them.

"This is such a baseless statement. We ARE a part of the natural order."

i.e. not the quotes around natural order in my post.

Hemi_Cuda
I just calls’em like I sees’em. What is going on in Liberal Land today?! The column are on various subjects, but loons like Rocker, Anthony Thomas and UberGirl spin them into The 2000 Election, The War on Terror and other Liberal Screeching Points! The Liberals must not have gotten their Medical Marijuana and are having withdrawal. Or maybe Rocker’s Mommy made him a PBJ, but used strawberry Jelly instead of grape jelly.

Bottom Line
I don't expect people like Anthony Thomas and uber and...ugh....rocker to understand hunting.

If I were to tell them that taking a deer was a very moving experience, to tell them that there are no words to describe the experience so that they could understand the true hunter's mindset during a hunt. I'm sure I would be met with more hateful rhetoric.

I understand where they come from as I would lash out at them for suggesting I give up eating meat or wearing leather gloves or shoes.

Some people are just not cut out to hunt, even if they do enjoy eating meat or wear leather clothing. And that's fine.

Some people can and do hunt. As Anthony said (and later ignored) it's a perfectly legal activity.

To claim some moral superiority over one another is pure folly, and for these individuals I recommend they go hunting.

Anthony Thomas
Bit of a racist ignoramus aren't you!

But uber
You're conveniently ignoring the facts.

We ARE a part of the natural order and because of that irrefutable fact, we cannot interfere that with which are a part of.

You think you have some moral superiority, but I'd be willing to bet that you have never lifted a finger to conserve a single square inch of land, have you?

Also, your insistance that we sterilize animals is silly. Please just google hunting and conservation. Plenty of resources out there to show you how wrong you are about hunting.


Kiki
How many more stupid articles about Vick, PETA, Abortion, etc. can you guys come up with. I really thought we had seen the worst of the lot, however, lo and behold or holy moley! Now we have "Star" tying to convince me that there is a comparison between cruelty to animals (Vick --sick sick) and football....I'm sorry I don't get it. Please can we write an article that doesn't bring up all of this junk again. There's a lot of happenings out there folks --let's just try to find something else to write about.

Anthony Thomas
So you think it is wrong for a hunter to harvest game and eat the food he has won but it is right for PETA to slaughter thousands of pets, take them to an alley across town and throw them in a dumpster?

I just finished eating beef so as to lessen the methane flatulence from cattle therefore I have done my part today to save the world from AGW.

BTW Anthony
What is your real opinion?

You don't condemn people for doing things that our government declares legal, but you're all over me for hunting....legally??

Your word for today is...HYPOCRITE.

I suggest you get familiar with this word as it will be assigned to you when you make an arse out of yourself like you did today on this thread.

Anthony
My source for Bush winning a recount under the rules for which Gore sued, leading to the SCOTUS ruling that you say made Bush Prez, is a consortium of well-known and highly regarded news publications, headed by the NY TIMES and the MIAMI HERALD.

This consortium, operating under the Freedom of Information Act, demanded to inspect all of the actual paper ballots that were saved from the election. After examining these ballots and counting them in accordance with the criteria requested by Gore in his lawsuit, the consortium determined that Bush would have won the election if Gore had won his lawsuit.

After counting all of the ballots in accordance with SCOFLA's judicial order the consortium concluded that Bush would have won the election if SCOTUS had let SCOFLA's ruling stand.

After counting all of the ballots in accordance with the criteria used by the various canvassing offices around the state (essentially a second hand recount under the same 'rules' as the first hand recount) the consortium concluded that Bush won.

Ironically, the only method by which Gore would have won was if a hand recount was done according to the strictest criteria; that a 'chad' had to be completely gone and no other 'chad' partially dislodged, dimpled, or disturbed. Under such criteria the consortium concluded that Gore would have won by 3 votes.

Since the only method by which Gore would have won is the method to which he objected most vociferously, he can hardly claim he was cheated.

These results were published in the Miami Herald some time in 2005. I think it was some time in the Spring. The reason you did not hear/read about it these results is because the liberally biased MSM did not get the results they desperately wanted and therefore did not loudly, widely, or repeatedly report it. To the contrary, they did their best to ignore it and bury it.

GunnyG
When you are going to vanish like that you should give us warning so we don't have the Coast Guard searching for you.
Glad to see you back.

Conservative values.
Just for the record I grew up on a farm. We had chickens. They never pecked each other to death. Chickens peck each other to death when they are too tightly confined. Humans need some personal space too sometimes or they begin to act in anti social ways. These industrial farms are a form of animal abuse.

I have hunted.

That does not change the story. And so far I have only heard that I am wrong but why I am wrong must be a secret.

When I think of a hunter I think of Chaney blowing his best friends face off after "not having to much to drink."

I think I've lived around enough hunters to know how dangerous they are. So dangerous that you can't even take a walk on your own property or be safe in your house or hang up the laundry, or not have your cows shot, during hunting season.

And apparently no trespassing signs don't mean much to conservative hunters.

That's "protect private property" until hunting season.

MyOpine
You are a true credit to the human race for doing your part to combat AGW.

I plan on doing my part this evening with a side of sauteed mushrooms and garlic mashed potatoes, followed with a smooth merlot.

uber
"When I think of a hunter I think of Chaney blowing his best friends face off after "not having to much to drink."

I think I've lived around enough hunters to know how dangerous they are. So dangerous that you can't even take a walk on your own property or be safe in your house or hang up the laundry, or not have your cows shot, during hunting season.

And apparently no trespassing signs don't mean much to conservative hunters.

That's "protect private property" until hunting season"

You must have lived on a "funny farm". Your "view of hunters" is not only dim but bigotted. I seriously doubt you've hunted, ever. never in my 25 years of hunting has anyone been shot while hanging laundry or had their cows shot. You are completely full of it, and you know it.

Shame on you for lying through your teeth.

serial killer moral defense
I enjoyed hunting. Enjoying something does not make it right.

Serial killers get a kick out of what they do. They can't use the well your just not a serial killer as a moral defense.

Also
What makes a conservative hunter prone to ignoring a no trespassing sign as opposed to another political party??

You betray your BS with this statement. You don't have a clue of what you're talking about, nor are you interested in the truth. You just wish to perpetuate your "ideaology", regardless if it's based on pure lies.

You are one of the worst examples of a human being there is, a liar willing to lie to anyone to further an agenda based on more lies.

Again, shame on you.

Hemi_Cuda
When I think of Uber, I think of a 48 year-old eunuch in a Mu-Mu.

Hemi_Cuda
"You are one of the worst examples of a human being there is, a liar willing to lie to anyone to further an agenda based on more lies."

I'll take that as an admission of defeat.

Serial Killers??
You are so off the deep end it is useless to even respond to you anymore.

You are truly a morally bankrupt individual.

Shame on you

Re: "Gore won the popular vote"
Gore got 49% of the popular vote.

One way to interpret this is that more people wanted Gore than wanted Bush. Another way to interpret it is that a majority wanted someone other than Gore for Prez.

I prefer to look at it this way. Al Gore inherited his segregationist father's seat as a Senator from Tennessee. He was born and bred to be the next President from Tennessee. It was his Tennessee heritage that took him to the Senate and validated his try for President.

But somewhere along the way he forgot the people who made him what he was. Somewhere along the way he abandoned his pronciples, and the principles of those who created Senator Al Gore Jr. with their faith in him as his father's legacy.

Somewhere along the way he and wife Tipper abandoned their criticism of Hollywood; right about the time they started getting bigtime campaign contributions from Hollywood's polical crowd.

Somewhere along the way Senator Gore abandoned his perfect track record of voting against abortion. Somewhere along the way he also abandoned his perfect track record of supporting the right of the people to keep and bear arms. He abandoned these principles right around the time he decided to make his run for the White House.

This man sold out his own people, his own constituents; the very people who put him in a position to run for President because a gang of purely political Democrats require that from all their Presidential and VP wannabes.

And in the end it cost him. On Election Day 2000 his home state of Tennessee went for his opponent, GWB. If Gore could have held his own home state he wouldn't have needed Florida. But he sh*t on those people and it came back to bite him.

Don't think he wouldn't have done the same thing to you (and me) if he had won.

uber
I doubt you have ever hunted for anything outside your own bedroom.

If you had ever hunted with a group of hunters you would know that entering your companion's fire zone without warning is suicidal!

If you Liberal hunters can't tell the difference between a bird and a cow or cloths line don't assume Conservatives can't.

Anyone stupid enough to run toward a hunter who is tracking a bird deserves to get his stupid head blown off.
Anyone with common sense would have ducked down and waited.

uber
are you now a psychologist? persons who exhibit sick behavior are not doing it for pleasure. Acting out your pathology is not pleasure driven but a result of your illness. There are differences between the actions of sane individuals and those with various psychosis. If hunters were akin to serial murderers they wouldn't be satisfied with merely hunting animals but would start stalking fellow hunters. The last case of someone killing hunters was some asian immigrant who felt he was avenging some slight towards his person. You need better arguments than feelings. continued mistating an argument don't change the facts. But then again your argument fails against hunting the same way your "logic" failed against competition. You seem incapable of understanding fellow human beings but state what you think should be their motives in these cases

Well Now
I have been waiting for some townhaller to defend dog-fighting because it brings in money. After all, the free market rules, right?

oh star
Your articles just get weirder and weirder. Defend if you will that drowning dogs and cutting them open are good values, but you are grasping for straws once again. I hope you are not getting paid to write.

Re: "serial killers"
Hemi_Cuda,

As Mr. Spock once told Captain Kirk in the original series "Star Trek", we all live off the death of others.

No matter where you reside in the food chain, when you eat you are obtaining nutrition off of something that had to die to feed you (unless you are a plant, which 'feeds' off of sunlight).

Guys like uber are not even morally different than you and me, let alone morally superior. They simply define "killing" in whatever manner is necessary to allow them to claim the moral high ground.

uber will insist that for a hunter to kill a deer is an immoral act because he doesn't care to do it and that makes it easy and convenient for him to assume moral superiority over you and me. It makes him feel better about himself.

Then, after he has declared for everyone else that their standards for morality must fit his exactly so he can be the morally superior one without any inconvenience to himself, he will presume to explain to us how he is the tolerant, open-minded one and how the rest of us are intolerant bigots.

Right after he kills a bunch of plants so he can eat their fruit (aka 'offspring').

A Parallel
Probably everyone has heard of somebody buying a live animal (chicken, turkey, lamb) intending to eat it but then has named it and made a pet of it and couldn't kill it. A parallel is that anti-abortion people want to legislate forcing a woman seeking termination of her pregnancy to view an ultrasound of the baby and also to give it a name. In both cases, it's harder to kill something we feel somehow related to. But in both cases, we make a decision to tolerate the killing because a necessary purpose is served. Unless we are vegetarian, the food on our table means that a living creature was killed to satisfy our need. And sometimes a pregnancy is so disruptive to life and promises so little for the child that termination is held to be the wise decision.

Omni
Amen. And when they start selling life insurance for a fetus, and giving it a Social Security number, and letting you sign it up for a prestigious school, and letting you take it off your income tax as a dependent, we can then start recognizing a fetus as a discrete human being.

People stop the fighting! I have the
solution! Just have George Bush through executive order, make dog fighting legal. Also make it retroactive to before Vick was born.
This seems to work very well and congress can look the other way and say it wasn't me.

If that doesn't work he can always pardon Vick and then all the neocons can praise him and lick his 3rd Reich boots.


lilly
The elder hippie again shows up. Who would defend dog fighting?. You always pretend that you libs always take the high road on moral issues. But it is your side, the left and your enablers in congress, the dims as well at such ilk as feminists groups and the aclu that defends abortion as though it is the right of women to use abortion as a method of birth control. Before the left can take a stand on the morality of issues they need take a hard look at the acts tyhey do defend. It is odd that the left defends abortion but opposes capitol punishment.

lilly 2
now you state abortion is okay if it is inconvenient to the woman. Perhaps there would be a decline in the amount of abortions if the two persons involved in the breeding act took precautions to prevent the pregnancy. Acting irresponsibly during the breeding act is no excuse for using abortions as an acepted means of birth control is quite immoral in it's approach

Parallels
1. Most people living in industrialized countries accept the necessity of using experimental animals in research to develop new drugs that will be used to cure disease in humans.

2. Many people of conscience accept that a woman should be legally allowed to elect to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

3. Except for ideological vegetarians, most people accept that animals will be killed to provide food for human beings. In this I would include both industrial slaughter and individual hunting of animals.

Children think that life is simple: all good or all bad. Grownups know better---some decisions are hard, but they are made for good reason. However, none of the above positions involves torture, the deliberate infliction of pain for the purpose of enjoyment, and in every case the necessary termination of life is done in the most humane manner possible.

Correction
Correction to my post at 4:59 PM.

The Miami Herald story on the newspaper consortium's recount was published on April 4, 2001.

ms lilly....
is killing an unborn child to be tolerated, because it "serves a necessary purpose?"

that thinking is sick and downright evil

mantlejim
I was wondering how long it would be before some Progressive would drop by with BDS.

3rd Reich boots?
http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist

What farm?
Chickens and turkeys and pigeons etc. do peck each other to death. They are born with horns on their beaks for that very purpose. Those protrusions are often burned off or covered in commercially raised birds.

They indulge the behavior when one is wounded or maybe challenged and has nothing to do with proximity. Roosters if running loose will use the weapon and its beak against enemies. Those enemies might be your ankles and shins. Bantam (the little red ones) roosters are particulatly pugnacious in that regard. That's why boxing has a bantam weight class.

I think all the "farmers" here were born on the farm of "my fantasy illusion".

Not raised on a farm, my parents and grandparents were, and I grew up in farm country. Get a grip.

A question
Would a pro-choice Peta member have a problem aborting puppies and kittens?

There's killin' in a humane way.
And then there's torture and murdering of innocent animals ONLY for the enjoyment and entertainment of the act itself. For these disgusting subhumans the torture WAS the thing!

Animals are killed HUMANELY every day. Some reasons I agree with, some I don't. But I don't have any problem putting down an animal if necessary. But killin' should always be done as quickly and painlessly as possible.

AND NEVER FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT OF Subhumans sociopaths!

P.S. If Michael Vick is so dam* sorry and only concerned with bein' a better person then I submit that he should immediately and PUBLICLY SNITCH on everyone he has ever known to be involved in this VILE, DISGUSTING mistreatment of the innocents. He must do this snitchin' right out in front of everybody- name the names dude! And then he should speak to children about the idea that when someone knows that people are involved in VILE acts- Snitchin' is the right thing to do!

Come'on Vick - Man UP!

lilly
I'm curious lilly, would you consider partial birth abortion the "most humane manner possible" of terminating a pregnancy.Seems kind of bizarre that you would denigrate a hunter for taking down a deer to feed his family yet it's perfectly okay to crush the skull of an unborn child in his mothers womb.

ex-tex
tyhe question is vick really sorry about his involvement in this sub human activity or just sorry he got caught. Any study of abnormal psychology shows mistreatment of animals is a precurser to other violent behavior. Good old saddam, that manof kindly benevolence started killing dogs earfly in his career. Reports concerning vick indicate a career involved with previous runins with the law. It seems he got into college only due to athletic and not academic credentialsOne would suppose that having attended college he was exposed to higher levels of thinking and that he has already pocketed millions of dollars in salaries he could have siought help for his troubled past and found socially accpeted outlets for his recreation.But like all pampered athletes they never understand there is some accountability for anti social behavior. How many times must wqe hear about another pamered athlete engaging in some form bad behavior. perhaps earlier in life there needs to be a way of stoppinjg this behavior when it first makes an apperence. But continuing to give these highly paid thugs yet another pass certainly benefits society in no way. Overpaying these athletes has been no guarantee they will act will socially acceptable ways. In fact the millions seem to be more of a factor in encouraging boorish behavior

rocker
mommy is calling you home for dinner. Don't forget to put on your bib so as not to slop your strained carrots on those footed pj's mommy makes you wear. Shooting your mouth doesn't qualify you to condemn hunters.

wildwest- you are indeed a wise man.
that's all.