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Friday, February 15, 2008
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison :: Townhall.com Columnist
D.C. Gun Ban Affects Entire U.S.
by Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison
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The right to keep and bear arms is secure in Texas, but in our nation's capital it has been taken away.

In 1976, the Washington City Council passed the nation's toughest gun control law, banning handguns completely and requiring rifles and shotguns to be registered, stored unloaded and locked or disassembled.

The D.C. murder rate was declining before this law; in the next 15 years it jumped 200 percent.

Besides being ineffective, the ban was simply incomprehensible. Under D.C. law, business owners have the right to use a firearm to protect their store cash registers, but they cannot use the same firearm to protect themselves and their families in their homes.

Federal law enforcement officers protecting citizens and officials in the district with firearms cannot use similar protection in their homes.

This prohibition has been challenged in court, and the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed that the district's ban was not only unreasonable but unconstitutional.

Next month, for the first time since 1939, the U.S. Supreme Court will rule on the issue of Second Amendment rights when it hears arguments in District of Columbia v. Heller. The court's decision will have major implications for all Americans.

I have filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court with my colleague Jon Tester from Montana - along with Vice President Dick Cheney as president of the Senate, 53 other U.S. senators and 250 members of the House - for the respondent, who simply wishes to exercise his constitutional right to protect himself. It has the most congressional signatures on any amicus brief to the Supreme Court.

The founding fathers knew what they were doing when they put the right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution. It was not an accident. In 1775, the American Revolution began because ordinary farmers decided to fight back against foreign tyranny. Many, if not most, in George Washington's regiments used their own guns.

The Second Amendment says, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It is clear that our founders did not use the term "militia" to suggest that gun rights could be used only in an organized army. But gun control advocates have made this argument for years.

If the framers' purpose had been a collective right, they would have been satisfied with Article I, Section VIII of the Constitution, which gives Congress the power to call forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrection and repel invasions.

Instead, to ensure that gun ownership was recognized as an individual right, they included it in the Bill of Rights, a compilation of such other individual rights as freedom of speech, freedom of religion and a fair trial. The location of these words provides strong evidence for the founders' vision.

Thomas Jefferson once wrote, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." In debate on the Bill of Rights, James Madison wanted the American people to have the right to be armed in order to prevent the kind of tyranny that dominated the rest of the world, especially Europe.

The Second Amendment ensures that people have the ability to secure our rights and defend them from government suppression, if necessary. It is that right that a government of the people, by the people and for the people must never extinguish.

The U.S. Supreme Court has the perfect case to affirm an individual's Second Amendment right to self-defense. Though gun-control advocates have questioned this through the years, Congress never has.

From the Freedman's Bureau Act of 1865 to the Property Requisition Act of 1941, Congress reaffirmed the solemn position of the U.S. as a defender of one's right to protect his being and his home with an operable firearm. I hope the Supreme Court will affirm the individual right to self-defense with a firearm so that it is clear and unambiguous.

It is an opportunity, perhaps, of a lifetime.

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About The Author
Senator Hutchison chairs the Senate Republican Policy Committee and is representing Texas in her third full term in the Senate.
Rich D, Calabash
Rich- you are absolutely right about the open carry exemption in Philly, I apologize for making the broad generalization.

Calabash- actually I have applied for, and received, a license in Philly and did not have the experience that you described. The 45 day rule is in effect, but they tell you it is 45 business days and not calendar days (I've heard that it changes from county to county). As far as the application, I was not insulted or humiliated, and the interview was quick and professional. I got my response back in about 3 weeks, if I remember correctly. Maybe my experience was unique as I've definitely heard stories that fall between mine and the h**lish scenario you described. I couldn't agree with you more about the 'straw purchasers', and I'm glad to see someone accept the fact that the guns being used to commit crimes are being purchased legally, just not by the end user. Now how do we deal with these 'straw purchasers' without infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens?

Hyena is the Sage of TH...Suuuuuure!
Have we learned nothing. Libtards know EVERYTHING and we are the benighted troglodytes who own guns, hunt, fish, drive V-8s, vote for conservatives (WHEN we have the chance) and oppose gay marriage.

Barry Boy Obamamama has sworn to end the "scourge of carry laws" in America. Since the RKBA stands in his way he either thinks he has the votes to repeal it or he intends to use the statist central planning solution to the will of the people. He'll have various federal agencies cut off federal funds for schools roads and hospitals until they repeal their own CCW laws. Don't think a know-nothing bonehead like him won't consider just that. Kill a gnat with a sledgehammer. Typical libtard.

-Ray
NRA Life Member

Higene
It is a good thing you are profoundly ignorant with regards to the history of firearms...and a great many other things as well. Otherwise we might have to take your posts seriously.

The beat goes on...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=867_1203133697

Hoplohobe = victim!
Hyena and Silly Lilly would be at home in London. The police there WARN Brits not to attempt to fight back if attacked. I am NOT kidding. The encourage them to "assume the victim position" (a fetal position with arms protecting head and face) and beg their attacker not to harm them.

About 13 years ago I got a post on Prodigy from a young American woman who'd encountered the "new castrati" approach to crime in London first hand. On the Tube she was assaulted by some punk and she pulled a TINY pocketknife. I think the blade was no more and 1.5" long. She threatened to cut him and he fled - STRAIGHT TO THE BOBBIES!!! He got HER arrested and, despite a lovely criminal record, was granted immunity so the Queen's Counsel could thrash her through the system as a "vigilante".

Fortunately cooler heads at the American Embassy intervened and she was sent home persona non grata, as if she ever wanted to go there again.

-Ray

Roundball & paper cartridges=18th cenury
From the beginning of the 18th century (1700 and on for those in Rio Linda) the Brits used to issue cartridge boxes to troops. These boxes were worn on their belts. They held at least 20 pre-formed paper cartridges which contained a lead ball, main powder charge and a priming charge. A British soldier was expected to fire at lease FOUR shots/minute with this system. They DID! Especially in engagemenst with Scottish rebels in the Highlands. This modern approach to war (high rate of fire) decimated the rebels and most were "transported" (exiled) to the Colonies. That's where most of the current residents of Eastern Tennessee get their DNA from.

I'm sorry if this bores you Hyena but most people think history began the day they were born and for libertards that goes treble.

A member of the militia (defined by U.S. Code as all persons under age 45) were REQUIRED to maintain a working firearm and a large supply of AMMUNITION. Some things are understood except to the most willingly dense or sophomoric amongst us. I used to cringe at the term "bow and arrow" because any dolt knows a bow is useless without an arrow so why constantly join the two. Then it became clear that most using the phrase were NOT archers so I just ignored it.

There was a movement in the early Seventies (again a sense of history please you troll) to ban bullets as "hazardous substances". It fell apart because 2nd Amendment scholars and lawyers pointed out that only a PURE lead bullet could be a "substance" and lead was already everywhere. In fact the only pure lead bullets I know of are the roundballs I load in my custom flintlock longrifle.




-Ray

Packrat - Higene is obviously...
--
...not a member of the "gun culture" (which describes quite effectively *ALL* of what Jeff Cooper has called "hoplophobes").

Moreover, he is so intellectually crippled in his approach to the subject that he posts on the Web with immedediate access to well-branded and reliable information and argument voiced by Second Amendment advocates on the Internet and he literally cannot bring himself to so much as *READ* anything contradictory to the gun-grabbers' lies and confabulations that bulk and bloat his own propaganda.

Respond to him however you will, but *PLEASE* don't maintain even the least expectations that he (or anyone like him) can be held to anything resembling the standards of knowledge we'd expect of a stone-age savage.

He's a "Liberal," so dial it down.

*WAY* down.

--

Higene

Have you ever heard of reloading?

Have you considered how unlikely it would be to stamp a 8 digit number on a .22 caliber bullet?

Have you ever heard of airguns or Co2 guns.


Libs=Hypocrites of "choice"!!!
The bellow about "choice".
Then they bellow about people making choices THEY don't like.

They say they're for "choice" re: abortion.
Think "Juno" will win best picture. It cost less than $20millioin to make and has made over $100million so far. The public loves it. The girl CHOOSES the adoption option. It doesn't stand a chance. I'd love to be wrong but I doubt it. When a positive and uplifting film like "Pursuit of Happyness" loses to a cinematic turd like "Last King of Scotland" which viewers avoided like the Plague you can see the writing.

If you choose to eat meat get ready for the PeTAzoids, the food Nazis and the vegan cretins to descend on you.

If you wear fur (leather with the hair left on) get ready for the screaming anti-fur idiots. I'd pay to see them hurl paint on the Hell's Angels for wearing all that awful leather. PLEASE Ingrid, toss a little paint for the cameras.

Light up a fine Arturo Fuente Opus X or Ashton 898 on an empty beach and some nicotine Nazi with a telescope will spot you and create a scene out of "Cuckoo's Nest".

CHOOSE to harvest your own meat, catch your own fish sticks or drive anything with more than 40 horsepower and some neo-puritan will be there to pee on your barbecue. I like Shaw's definition of a Puritan:
Somebody who lives in the dread fear that somewhere, somehow, somebody is having a good time.

Sound like the liberal trolls on TH?

-Ray
NRA Life Member


To King Liberal
I see you're expecting someone else to make the sign you say you'll post on your property declaring it to be gun-free. As a self-described liberal, do you expect someone else to pay for it, also?

Like another poster said, a piece of poster board and a Magic Marker, and a wooden stick (a paint stirrer or yardstick will work) to hold it securely in the ground are all you need. Or you can simply tape it in your living room window. If you don't want to get Magic Marker on those delicate fingers, you can use those adhesive letters found at any hardware store.

To quote another poster who regularly advises us as to ways we can annoy liberals,

Annoy a liberal: Do it yourself!

SJ Doc
You are right. Having done the math, it seems that-assuming there are 200 million guns in the US- gun crimes amount to well below one one hundreth of one percent.

broshaw
People should at least have a choice to be able to defend themselves. And yes, if they are not mentally ill or felons, that means carrying a gun if they choose. That said, it would be just as insane to force someone to carry a gun as it is to deny them the right to do so.


Ralph E - The NRA be damned
--
Says Ralph E:

"Funny thing is that the NRA would consider you views extreme. Also, does it say something about the USA when we have over 280 million guns for 300 million people?"


Writer L. Neil Smith puts perfectly my view of the NRA in one of his essays on the Association:

"Worse than thieves, murderers, or cannibals, those who offer compromise slow you and sap your vitality while pretending to be your friends. They are not your friends. Compromisers are the enemies of all humanity, the enemies of life itself. Compromisers are the enemies of everything important, sacred, and true."

See http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2007/tle401-20070114-03.html

Of course, that's also how I feel about the Republican Party and the candidacy of John McCain.

As for your concern about the overall number of firearms proportional to the population of these United States, doesn't it say something absolutely remarkable about the high levels of civility and the *LACK* of criminality intrinsic to that population when you observe that such a heavily armed populace is not awash in murder and massacre along the lines of what we find in countries like those of subequatorial Africa, where the citizenries are largely deprived of the ability to keep and bear firearms?

Here we have a nation in which one of the founders can be quoted as having said:

"The great object is that every man be armed... [e]veryone who is able may have a gun."

And yet we rely on our average citizens - no matter how put upon, how transgressed against - to maintain a civil society governed under rule of law in the expectation that they can seek redress of their grievances without daily recourse to force-of-arms.

Quite an "extreme" concept, in and of itself, wouldn't you think?

And yet the American people accept this as the fundamental basis of all lawful government.

--


broshow
No, the reason Canada has less gun crime than the US is a simple matter of population and geography. They have less than 50 million people in Canada, spread out over a larger area.

As for your assertion that cases of armed self defense rarely happen, that too is false. Local newspapers and telecasts all over the country report such occurances but it is rarely picked up by the national media. And that is not necessarily for any consperatorial reasons. Would World News Tonight report on liquor store hold up in Detroit? No. And neither will they report when the owner of that store drives off the would be robbers with a legally owned weapon. But I can assure you, it will make the news in Detroit.

Ralph
So the lax southern gun laws are to blame for DC gun crime? Why then has the crime in most lax southern cities gone down while the crime in DC has gone up?

The answer is easy to track. When DC essentially made it illegal for its citizens to own a gun, there was a two fold result:

1) Criminals became bolder because they knew they now lived in a city filled with defenseless victims.

2) The market for illegal guns exploded. I would bet big money that the price for an illegal gun in DC is significantly higher than it is in places that do not have such bans.

Oh, as for your little "joke" about fearing the black man...it generally isnt whites that have to fear the black man...it is other black men. And the same holds true for whites. No matter what color you are, you are most likely to encounter criminals of your own race; it is a simple matter of statistical probability.

Tale of two districts.
Sheepdog,

For many years Arlington,VA has had a MUCH lower rate of violent crime and burglaries than Foggy Bottom. They have a much higher rate of legal private gun ownership and the same ethnic mix. Demographically they're twins. WHY the difference? Can't you see that criminals PREFER unarmed "vics"?
In countless prison interview with the Gang Bangers in Chicago and L.A. one thing was asked a lot. "Why don't you go out into the remote rural areas for targets?" The answer is always the same. "Those farmers and rancher got guns, know how to use them and they WILL."

-Ray
NRA Life Member

broshow
Guns are used by private citizens in self defense thousands of times a year. The reason you dont' get it from the news is that they see guns as inherently evil and don't want it known that people use them for defense. Do some reading. Start with John Lott.

Also the Founding Fathers knew we would need to be able to protect ourselves from the greatest criminals on the planet, POLITICIANS!

KBHNRA
How did this woman ever get elected to the Senate...oh wait. NRA money. How many people actually use a gun to protect their home in the course of the year? 10-20-100. Couldn't be more than that cause I never read about it in the papers and it sure would make news.
To the idiot who thinks that lives would have been saved if every student at Va. T. or NIU carried a gun, I can only ask. Are you proposing to make gun possession mandatory? That would be the only way to be certain. Canada has more gun ownership per capita than the US and yet their murder rate is a very small fraction of ours. Why? Most of their guns are rifles, shotguns and not assault or hand guns.
The founding father's reasoning behind the right to bare arms had more to do with the idea of the citizen soldier. The Army was largely volunteer and not in the position to furnish weapons. It was our first line of defense against invasion and internal threats to our democracy. The world has changed in 250 years and the average American doesn't need an assault rifle and our carelessness in making it easy for the mentally disturbed to become mass murders is the curse of the 2nd Amendment and the shame of the NRA.

Sign
Seen at a construction site:

"THIS PROPERTY PROTECTED BY AN ARMED GUARD WITH A SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN 5 DAYS A WEEK. YOU GUESS WHICH ONES ARE NOT!"

wally
It was a joke. As for gun phobia, the majority of DC residents do not want lax gun laws. We have seen how the almost non-existent gun restrictions from southern states have put our community in danger. More guns won't help the situation at all.



Ralph
So you think playing the race card will help you win an argument where the facts are against you?

"You know the big scary black man some cons are sooo afraid of that they have to get a gun:"

We all know that the guys who shot up the campus in N. IL and UVA and the Muslim in Salt Lake and the shooters at Columbine were not black and that race has nothing whatever to do with it. Evil is available in all colors so stop making excuses for your emotionally biased, nonsensical gun phobia.

Guns in the hands of criminals are a very bad thing indeed.

Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are DEFENSIVE weapons and the ONLY real deterant to those who would misuse them.

Perhaps this....
.....will help generate some understanding and insight.

(Author is a Clinical, Board Certified Psycologist, MD)

http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Mind-Psychological-Political- Madness/dp/097795630X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1 203200555&sr=1-1

Ralph
Why is the violence rate so high in DC?

The criminals apparently are not abiding by the ban on handguns. etc.


sheepdog
Actually I'll do it. So will all my neighbors, since we live in DC. Sorryto destroy your little antedote.

You know the big scary black man some cons are sooo afraid of that they have to get a gun: I see that man every morning in my mirror. Not a bad looking guy, I must say.


tony54

Sorry, tony54, no deal. I took the same oath.

I just wanted to hear lilly's recommendation.

Rallph Ellison
Maybe you should hang a sign or your front door that says "There are no guns in this House" and maybe you'll understand why when some criminal comes into your house and takes your things and threatens your family. But it's your life.

Ralph Ellison
"Exactly why do you feel the need to have a concealed weapon? Does it make you feel safe? Powerful"

Again your emotional liberal logic astounds me. I don't know wether laugh or hurl everytime I read your posts. Maybe you should hang a sign on the front door of your house that says

Supreme Authority?
Well, from what I recall from American Gov't 101, the "OPINION" of the Supreme Court is just that. AN OPINION. It has no legal authoritative ability to CREATE laws. It is only gives its interpretation of existing constitutional laws. Just because they hand down an "opinion" does not make it law. Ask Abe Lincoln. He defied the "opinion" of the Supreme Court on their interpretation that is was legal to own slaves. and thank God he did.

It even states at the top of every brief that they hand down that "IT IS THE OPINION OF THIS COURT"....

Not saying that we don't need strict constitutionalist on the bench, I think it is vitally important because of the ignorance out there that they have the final voice on law.

Birdman II
Birdman, you hit the nail in the head.
I'll make lilly a deal:
I'll give up my second amendmend, right after you give up your first?
Untill that happens I will defend my second amendmend and your first amendmend right to talk your bs.
When I took an oath to protect and defend CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, from enemies foreign or WITHIN, it meant the whole Constitution, not just your politically correct version.


lilly

As a confirmed Liberal (meaning Leftist) what do you recommend?

The 2d Amendment (#2 in the Bill for Rights) states that the government shall not infringe the peoples right to bear arms.

Should we do away with the 2d Amendment? Should we disarm all the citizens?

Wally
You got it right about any high school kid,

Another point, google "zip guns"and find out how inventive people can be or "weapons of the Viet Cong".

Sure conventional firearms can be banned but to what advantage?

Think about the unintended consequences of banning.

Kenessaw, GA
got it right but the rest of the US hasn't woken up.
The required core curricula should include marksmanship and gun/range safety form k thru 12 starting with bb guns and gradually increasing caliber & power as well as going from rifle to handgun & shotgun.
Ranges would not have to be at all schools as most cities have police, military and private range capacity already.
This would have the bonus of total elimination of accidental shootings along with removing the curiosity/novelty factor.

King Liberal: Gun Free Zone Sign
You can buy poster board and a marker nearly ANYWHERE. Please don't tell me you can't figure out how to write "Gun Free Zone" on the poster board. After all, you did figure out how to post comments here.

Liberal NUTS always ignore the obvious!
Liberals who want to ban handguns and so called "assualt weapons" always conveniently ignore the large number of crimes that are prevented or terminated every year because someone unexpectedly had a DEFENSIVE WEAPON.

A year ago in a Salt Lake City shopping mall, a young Muslim, armed to the teeth with some weapons and lots of ammunition, walked in and started shooting everyone within range. He got a few before he was pinned down by a man who was only there to have a Valentine's Day dinner with his wife. Five people died but without the quick action of this one man, forty or fifty would probably have died.

Don't forget the teacher at Columbine H.S. who ran off campus to get his gun from his car. Had it been available to him IN THE SCHOOL many lives would likely have been saved.

You can't un-invent guns. A high school kid with ordinary tools can make a working firearm. The best defence is, once again, a good offence! Guns in the hands of the law-abiding are a much better deterant than another law. Laws don't protect anyone, they only provide for a penalty after the fact. Laws and "gun free zones" didn't help the victims in IL or WV did they? Did they even penalize the shooters?

"More Guns Less Crime" was written by a man who started his research with the opposite point of view.

Kenessaw, GA
Moonkeeper wrote that the crime rate in Kenessaw drop after the law REQUIRING guns. The BEST part is, the drop resulted from the OFFICIAL support for gun ownership, even with NO actual enforcement. Simply knowing potential victims COULD have guns was enough.

Has anyone else noticed ALL mass shooting end when the shooter dies? The only question is if someone shoots them before they shoot themselves.

NUTNFINR, King Lib, et al
As a holder of CCW in 2 states (TX, CO) for over a dozen years, please allow me to interject an observation:

The coincidence of attacks at "gun-free zones" is impossible to ignore. Not just the shootings, but the physical assaults of nurses leaving the hospitals, parking lot robberies of shoppers at malls, etc. Criminals usually are warped, not stupid.

Well-intentioned liberals want to do something, almost anything, to deal with the issue. YES! So do the conservatives. But, don't just pass feel-good legislation that actually works against your goal of a safer society. How many lives would have been saved had the kids in Columbine known that a double-barrelled shotgun can fire 2 and only 2 shots before it has to be reloaded? Those poor kids just sat there while the bad kid reloaded, over and over. KNOWLEDGE of guns is important to a child's chance of survival, IMHO.

I graduated from a high school/junior college where every student was armed with a semi-auto rifle and bayonet. (New Mexico Military Institute) It was inconceivable that anyone could ever bust into a classroom there and start firing w/o being immediately swarmed by the entire class. We all knew our firearms intimately, and NEVER would have sat there while being fired upon. I don't know of a single case of a student going berserk there and using his firearm for malevalent purpose.

Let's unite for a safer society by initiatives for education of our kids in firearms, yes, and at an early age. Couple this with demanding serious jailtime for armed criminals. Gun laws simply mean nothing to one committed to ignoring them.

history repeats?
In 1968 after the Bobby Kennedy assassination, our congress passed what is knows as the ‘68 gun control act'.
It was/is a mirror copy of the "1938 gun control act" passed in Germany by the Hitler government. In Germany they went a step further, all civilian firearms were confiscated without resistance of the folks, "FOR SAFETY".
You all know what happened to the "UNARMED Jews and Christians that were branded enemies of the state.
Our founding fathers gave us the second amendment for many good reasons.
It's not about hunting ducks.
HE, WHO TURNS THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES, WILL PLOW FOR THOSE WHO DON'T.

Comment on CCW

The reason some people get CCW Permits is because they do not feel safe where they work or live and have no choice in the matter of work/home.

The SCOTUS has reled tha the police are not obligated to provide your protection at all times.

Read what happend to a woman who did it "by the book":

The latest decision in this regard is the SCOTUS ruling in Castle Rock vs. Gonzales. The story is nightmarish -- a woman repeatedly telephoned and visited a police station to report that her estranged husband had taken their three daughters, in violation of a restraining order, and even reported to them where he had apparently taken them. The police repeatedly dismissed her and failed to take any action. Subsequently the husband murdered the three girls and committed sucide by attacking the police station.

The mother then sued the city for failing to enforce the restraining order. She claimed a that she held a right to have the restraining order enforced, particularly since the order included a note to police that "You shall use every reasonable means to enforce this restraining order. You shall arrest...or seek a warrant for the arrest of the restrained person when you have any information amounting to proabable cause that the restrained person has violated or attempted to violate this order..."

The Supreme Court ruled, 7-2, that Mrs. Gonzales had no "entitlement" to police enforcement of the restraining order. The words of the dissenting justices, Stevens and Ginsburg, are particularly interesting: "It is perfectly clear, on the one hand, that neither the Federal Consititution nor any federal statute granted respondent or her children any individual entitlement to police protection

Finally Something Pro-American from KBH
Finally something pro-American from Kay Bailey! While she is turning the State of Texas into a Third World Country, she is at least rational enough to read the Bill of Rights and understand its intent. The goof balls that oppose gun ownership have the blood of innocents on their hands each and every time a senseless killing occurs in a 'gun free zone.' Someone asked if gun ownership made one feel "safer" or "powerful." This is an idiotic question. I don't know about 'powerful,' however there is no question that I am safer when I can adequately defend myself. Looking down the barrel of a shot gun most definitely deters criminals intent upon harm.

NUTNFINR
Exactly why do you feel the need to have a concealed weapon? Does it make you feel safe? Powerful?

Just curious.

King Liberal.....
can't understand what we are saying because it is so dark and smelly where he keeps his head.

He completely misses the fact that people who obtain CCW permits, at least in my state, have to jump through several hoops. First, their mental health and criminal record are checked. Assuming they are clean, there is a class on laws regarding state laws on the use of deadly force and where weapons are prohibited. In my state, prohibited areas include government buildings, schools (unfortunately), places that serve alcholic beverages and businesses that display a sign prohibiting them. This class is followed by time on the shooting range with the person's handgun of choice. One has to show some degree of skill with the weapon and demonstrate understanding of the law.

I got my CCW in 1996 and have not had to display my weapon, much less use it. I am not aware of ANY instance, anywhere, where a CCW permit holder has been invovled in an unlawful activity with his weapon.

So King, inform yourself and join the rest of us in the sweet smelling sunshine!

dbz77
Exactly why we should leave Iraq as soon as possible. Given that there is evidence that what we are attempting may be having positive effects it is imperative that we stop those efforts as soon as possible. Only things that don't work should be implemented.

Obama '08'

SJ Doc
Funny thing is that the NRA would consider you views extreme. Also, does it say something about the USA when we have over 280 million guns for 300 million people? Crime rate is not the lowest in the world by a long shot. What does this say about us as a nation?

KAY BAILEY & ILLEGAL ALIENS
KAY WANTS AMNESTY(AKA COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM)FOR TWENTY MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS. A LOT OF THESE ILLEGAL ALIENS CARRY GUNS, NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW SAYS. SHE VIOLATES HER OATH OF OFFICE BY NOT PROTECTING U.S. CITIZENRY FROM PREVENTING ILLEGAL ALIENS FROM GETTING INTO THE UNITED STATES AND THEN GETTING HOLD OF GUNS AND KILLING PEOPLE. WE HEAR ABOUT THESE CAMPUS SHOOTINGS, BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT 25 PEOPLE PER DAY ARE DYING AT THE HANDS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS-SOME BY CAR ACCIDENTS AND SOME BY HOMICIDES. TAKE A LOOK AT THE FOUR BLACK STUDENTS IN NEWARK THAT WERE EXECUTED BY AN ILLEGAL ALIEN. GOOGLE UP SOME OF THE GANGS LIKE MS-13, SURENOS, MBC-13, LATIN KINGS(D.C. GANG). THE REASON KAY WON'T DO THE JOB IS THAT THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE(A LOBBYING GROUP FOR BUSINESS) CONTROLS HER, BUSH, McCAIN, CLINTON, OBAMA. THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE HAS 200+ LAWYERS AND LOBBYISTS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. THAT HAVE THEIR HANDS ON NEARLY EVERY POLITICIAN. THEY HAVE DEEP POCKETS. THE REASON BUSH'S & CONGRESS'S APPROVAL RATING IS SO LOW IS THAT THEY WILL NOT TACKLE THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PROBLEM BY PUTTING UP THE FENCE, GETTING MORE BORDER PATROL, EMPLOYER ENFORCEMENT, DETENTION, AND DEPORTATION-NEVER AMNESTY.

NEOCON = BONE HEAD
If our government does not respect the constitution when it declares war what makes you think it cares about the second amendment. Read article 1 section 8.

Congress can not vote to cede power to the president either. Imagine a liberal congress and abortion!

You Neo Cons were so excited to jump on this slippery slide when it came to killing Muslims. Now when they come to kill us we wont be able to defend ourselves.

TruLib
"If the situation actually gets worse because of what we do it is OK because at least we tried. Intentions matter. F*ck the results."
Sounds like a defense of the continued occupation of Iraq.

D. C. GUN BAN
Senator Hutchison states the case for gun rights well.

Texas is a state with a "right to carry" law. The crime rates are better in the states with right to carry laws than in the other states and D.C. If you have any ideas about committing a crime, you will, if you have any brains, think twice. You never know which storekeeper will have a gun under the counter or in an apron pocket. If you think you'd like to kill a woman, you think twice. She just might have a gun hidden under a bulky jacket or sweater or muu-muu!

Colleges have become the thorns in the sides of decency that they have, in part, because of the tons of taxpayer money that are poured into them. It's time to de-fund academia! Real change will come only when parents and children take a consumer attitude toward college as they do with almost everything else in life and when alumni quit making donations to their alma maters.

Iraq
"
Yes, a few will shake their fists at the sky, call into talk radio, pyss and moan for a while. And yes maybe one or two will hold out in their cabins to the end. But when the rest of the country sees them gunned down by FBI snipers and when they ponder life without their wide screen TVs, beer, and Monday night football, they'll submit."
So why has this not happened in Iraq yet?

D. C. GUN BAN
Senator Hutchison states the case for gun rights well.

Texas is a state with a "right to carry" law. The crime rates are better in the states with right to carry laws than in the other states and D.C. If you have any ideas about committing a crime, you will, if you have any brains, think twice. You never know which storekeeper will have a gun under the counter or in an apron pocket. If you think you'd like to kill a woman, you think twice. She just might have a gun hidden under a bulky jacket or sweater or muu-muu!

Colleges have become the thorns in the sides of decency that they have, in part, because of the tons of taxpayer money that are poured into them. It's time to de-fund academia! Real change will come only when parents and children take a consumer attitude toward college as they do with almost everything else in life and when alumni quit making donations to their alma maters.

King Liberal and friends...
are the reason that so many innocents are killed and injured by dirtbags without respect for others. Education is paramount in any safety program, and the liberal practice of vilifying guns instead of teaching the proper use and respect for the best tool for self defense is a major cause of mass murders.

Aiding and abetting the domestic gun - toting criminal... good for you King Liberal.

King Liberal
The women in Nanking during the Japanese occupation did not have guns.


How safe were they

Lilly
In Colorado, that was a member of the church acting as a volunteer guard with the approval of the pastor. (Can you say citizen?)

She was a former police officer, and had aa CCW permit.

To repeat Gun free zones are target rich zones. A bunch of sheep at the mercy of a hungry wolf.

King Lib
Guns were around (and not even locked up) in decades past, not so long ago.
There weren't any fears of someone doing a campus massacre then.
Why do you think it's becoming more prevalent now? Do you really think it's because guns are more readily available?
Something else has changed, KL. Maybe it has to do with the way kids are raised (as entitled little wusses whose self esteem is rabidly protected until they get out in...the real world). Maybe they don't learn how to suffer defeat and get back up again, get through it because they aren't allowed ever to fail. Bad for the self esteem. Maybe their backsides never got warmed.
What these shooters seem to have in common is that they're part of a culture that doesn't know how to deal with disappointment.


Disarming the populace is not the answer to a cultural problem.

The Supreme Court
What are we prepared to do if it rules the wrong way. Can't happen?

(1) Look at the Eminent Domain case.

(2) How about using the Interstate Commerce clause to uphold the conviction of a woman growing very small amounts of marijuana on her own property for her own use for an eye condition? Do you realize that you can be forced under the same ruling to have your backyard garden inspected, shut down, or be forced to put nutrition labels on your own carrots? Are you laughing?

Local, and state, laws against 2A...
Local, and state, laws against 2A are also not constitutional, Note:

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."

Note, specifically, the words "either should attempt it."

Thus we note that even state, or local, ordinances in direct confrontation with the letter of the Constitutional law, as regards the 2A, are null and void.

Marbury v. Madison backs this up by stating that laws contrary to the Constitution are null and void.

Those professing a belief that the right in 2A is one of a collective state simply need to take an English course again.
Paul Rusin

A little reminder for everyone
--
Everyone reading in this thread needs to keep in mind the fact that the Articles of the Constitution's Bill of Rights do not *GRANT* rights to any person in these United States.

What they do is create explicit prohibitions on *GOVERNMENT* agencies and officers, prohibitions which were enacted to preserve against government infringement the already-existing and undisputed rights of the private citizen.

You cannot forbid the exercise of a specifically protected *RIGHT* to everyone except those who have been explicitly "permitted" by agents of government.

That explicitly contradicts the language and the clear intention of the Second Amendment, and is therefore a criminally malfeasant (even treasonous) usurpation of power, and warrants for those public officials as may enact or attempt to enforce these statutes such punishments as are warranted by law.

Including death.

As the law of the land, the Bill of Rights specifically and unequivocally "chains down" the federal government - and by extension via the Fourteenth Amendment, the governments of the several states - from this and other violations of the rights of the citizens of these United States.


--
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence. It is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions, to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power... Our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go... In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:388

You're all missing the point...
Paul Rusin writes:

The SCOTUS has the onus now to set the gun control debate right. The lower (D.C. appeals) court ruled correctly--as has been seen in many briefs, and other court rulings--that this is an individual right.

Emerson v. U.S. (1999), argued that the right is individual. The Clinton administration JD sought that the 5th Circuit Court rule it a collective right of the state, even though there is no mention of the state, or even the federal government within the 2A. The 5th CC ruled 2A an individual right.

The rest at: http://constitutionclarifier.blogtownhall.com/


Protect and Serve
Anyone who thinks that the "authorities" don't get out of control should see these videos:

http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid= 73747

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0&feature=related

You will see a deputy smile in the first and the group joking in the second. Who would shoot at a head and risk an eye?

Of course, when they make a mistake, they fall all overthemselves to make it right, right?

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/208.html

WARNING: Remove all food from mouth and kids from room before viewing this one.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82447

Who will guard us from the guards?

Yes Senator
We appreciate your common sense regarding self defence. Now I wish you had the same common sense approach to securing our borders. Your open border policy letting in the drug cartels, the murders, rapists. child molestors and gangs so you can have cheap labor is a major source of the crime we need to defend ourselves against.

Move away from liberal mentality
With all the inundating of the liberal mentality in kids these days it's no wonder they are going crazy. Everything liberals teach from Maine giving birth control to eleven year olds to letting go child molesters in Vermont, pampering crimanals in California and everything in between. They refuse to go after the root problems with more law enforcement and stiffer penalties. Only Conservative teachings could bring the county back to it's former glory and honorable place of stature, it'll never happen not with what I call the time-out generations(liberals).

King Liberal
Should read the posts of Savage99 and Moonkeeper.

Your post mentioned what you called a stupid argument, the FACT that more gun ownership reduces crime. It is not a stupid argument it has been proven time and again from here to Australia. The Justice Dept., the FBI, the BATFE all recognize that legal gun ownership reduces crime and that's a fact.

After England and Australia had their God given right to self-defense stripped away by the gun ban communists in their countries. Violent crime rose by 300 percent and law-abiding citizens who kept some guns were jailed for trying to protect their property.

We need to in this country protect and enforce the Second Amendment and prosecute all who would undermine it from President of the United States on down.

We Must Do Something
We can't just let all this violence go on and not try to do something to stop it. Not taking action means we don't care and at that point the violence becomes our responsibility. If we do take action it means we are trying to do what is right. At that point the results of our actions becomes irrelevant as all that really matters is how much we care. If the situation actually gets worse because of what we do it is OK because at least we tried. Intentions matter. F*ck the results.

Moonkeeper
That is also what the Swiss did many years ago. As a result they were not invaded by Germany as the other countries were. France fell in two weeks, Sweden never invaded.

Blatant \Disrespect for the Constitution
The Supreme Court taking all this time to hear another Second Amendment case is why the Gun-Ban Communists have enjoyed so much success over the years.

Where were they as the GBC tried to lynch the firearms industry with frivolous lawsuits? Congress passing the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act didn't do much to thwart the Constitution ignorers and sleazy gun- ban lawyers from plying their trade.

The court should have acted sooner.

And after the case is over, assuming it(the court)doesn't use the same idiotic logic it used to screw up the BCRA review and screw the public also. Prosecutors should move to indict and jail all lawmakers who disregard the sacred law of the Constitution. Too many historical documents exist and statements from people of the time to simply let the GBC run rampant on the Amendment.

Federalist William Rawle wrote[in 1829] that if Congress or a state legislature tried to disarm the people "in any blind pursuit of inordinate power",the Second Amendment" may be appealed to as a restraint on both".

Also the Federalist papers are good source.

For too long the people entrusted with governing our country have been the usurpers of inalienable rights.

Calabash - Laws criminalizing felons'
--
...ownership and carriage of firearms are (per your observation) useless.

Indeed, it may be argued that convicted felons may have *MORE* legitimate reason behing their need to obtain and use concealed firearms than citizens with spotless records.

Not all convicted felons are engaged in criminal activities, but they *ARE* more likely to live in very low-income neighborhoods where the incidence of violent crime is high. The laws and customs restricting the convicted felon's ability to seek employment, improve his material lot in life, and support himself and his family virtually condemn him to damned bad living conditions.

Even when he has "paid his debt to society" and wishes to abide by the law like any other citizen.

Given that such a felon is as much a victim as any entirely guiltless American under similar circumstances, it's better to characterize gun control statutes as precisely what they were intended to be.

"Victim disarmament" laws.

Remember also that the overwhelming majority of felony convictions (approaching 90% in most urban jurisdictions) are obtained as the result of "plea bargaining," relying on the fact that the state has effectively infinite wealth ("Just rape another hundred taxpayers, Charlie!") and the private citizen cannot afford a prolonged and adequately competent criminal law defense.

What's that old saying?

The conservative is a "Liberal" who's just been mugged.

And a "Liberal" is a conservative who's just been indicted.

--

LeftRudyRight
There’s no reason why a law-abiding citizen should be prohibited from owning a grenade launcher or a .50 caliber machine gun. There is a reason why a convicted felon should be prohibited from owning a .22 cal pistol.

Philadelphia is a “city of the first class.” The only “city of the first class” in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania gun laws provide special exceptions (restrictions) for Philly. I don’t know where you get this idea of “some of the most lenient regulations” in Philly. (In Philly, there is no “right to bear arms.” It is merely a “privilege.”) You’ve obviously never attempted to obtain a License to Carry Firearms in Philly. Philly is exempt from the 45-day delay for background checks prevalent in all other parts of PA. They can take as long as they want. As a matter of fact, Philly does not mail out notifications of your being approved for a LTCF. No, you need to physically show up at the licensing office, and inquire about your application. Applicants are fingerprinted, and they are subjected to ad lib personal insults and humiliation by the approving receptionist in the presence of a police officer (to weed out the “unstable personalities,” I suppose.)

I’ll tell you what the problem is in Philly. When I first began attending gun shows in the Philly area, I was naively impressed by the large number of women who were, apparently, into guns. Alas, I was quickly shaken from my first impressions. The women were there as “straw purchasers” of guns for their felon boyfriends and husbands.

Law-abiding citizens are not the ones committing murders in Philadelphia.

GUN FREE ZONE signs
We should start a fund to print, give them away, and even post them free to any liberal taker. Think of it as Darwin on steroids. ;-)


King Liberal
and the other lefties here live in a fantasy world of how they think it should be, and ignore the realities of what is. Many lives have been lost and harmed because of their wishful dreaming. However, they're so full of pride that even faced with facts, they continue to stubbornly cling to their dogma, rather than admit they were wrong.

Dear lilly - ''It's for the children!''
--
Squeals lilly:

"Child? You want children going around armed? And this is not a silly question---last year on townhall a poster proudly announced that he was teaching his five year-old to shoot."


You betcha. Childhood is the optimum time to instruct an individual in firearms safety and the effective use of such instruments.

It's the insane stupidity of modern America which leads our young men and women into so much horrible misadventure in the second and third decades of their lives.

Idiots like you presume that "Just say no!" will suffice to preserve their kids from the adverse potentials of drugs and alcohol and firearms and sex and driving and power tool operation and the use of explosives, and it is precisely because of the blank unfamiliarity this inflicts upon them that they so commonly come to grief upon these realities for the first time in their teenaged and twenty-something'd years.

Tsk.

Fortunately for us conservatives in our "Red state" communities, we grow up experienced in these and other areas of life, respectful of adverse consequences and familiar with the principles of safe and effective action.

As for you "Liberals"....

Well, jeez, especially with your affinity for aborting your offspring, it's a miracle that so many of you even get old enough to reproduce.

I imagine the average "Liberal" in his first encounter with a bandsaw or hydraulic jack and - like any other experienced E.R. doctor - I have to wince and reflexively grope for a tourniquet.


--
"An armed society is a polite society."

-- Robert A. Heinlein (1942)

Signs and Bumper Stickers
King Liberal says he would put a "GUN FREE ZONE" in his front yard, but where can he (I) get one.

D R at 3:51 said he tried, unsucessfully, to sell Gun Free Zone bumper stickers. Couldn't even give them away.

King, I'll bet he can get one for you.
Or, go to any local print shop, sign shop, Kinkos and have one made up in minutes.

Gee, that was a tough one.

SJ
Exactly my point. What is to stop some armed hothead from shooting the police officer who stoops him breaking the law? There is a growing current in this country in which people feeling wronged take matters into their own hands and shoot somebody. A couple of years ago a federal judge in Chicago had ruled against the malpractice case brought by a man who thought the doctors who treated him were Nazi agents (he appeared to be deranged). He snuck into the judge's home and shot her husband and mother. Last year a man who took exception to side effects of a drug prescribed by his doctor went to the doctor's office and shot him dead. It seems to me only a short step until the state police offer who pulls out his Breath-a-lyzer will find the guy he's stopped pulling out his gun. BTW I was reading that the fence around Chuck Norris' home is full of signs announcing intention to shoot, eg "We Don't Call 911". Thus speaks a popular hero: shoot first.

King Liberal
Can't be quoted enough: when GWB was elected the NRA gleefully said, "Now we will be working out of the Oval Office". And they have been, too.

Dearest lilly - ever heard of...?
--
...the Battle of Athens, Tennessee?

You ask "...how long it will be until armed citizens start shooting traffic cops and other agents of the state whose job it is to enforce laws?"

Well, it already happened.

To the New Deal Democrat government of McMinn County, August 1-2, 1946, which was overthrown by an uprising of local citizens (including a great many veteran G.I.'s newly returned from World War II), who used both privately owned firearms, dynamite, and military weapons taken from the local National Guard and State Guard armories.

See http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm for a more complete discussion.

Especially with "Liberals" like you seeking and finding influence among our governments at various levels (and thereby gaining the ability to enforce your tyrannical idiocies upon your neighbores through the use of uniformed goons with guns), it's more important than ever that those of us among the private citizenry retain the ownership and willingness to employ effective firearms against "traffic cops and other agents of the state whose job it is to enforce laws."

Especially if they're trying to enforce the kinds of laws *YOU* want enacted.

Remember, any .30-06 bullet (whether it's fired by a single-shot bolt action deer rifle or a heavy machine gun) can penetrate any Kevlar vest worn by any police officer anywhere in these United States.

Think of *ALL* of us out here as being armed with "cop-killer" weapons.

Who knows? It may even bring upon you the wisdom of restraint.

--

lilly
Bringing in lots of straw and thrift store clothes as usual. She must have a warehouse filled with straw man arguments.

First she tells you what you think...then she tears down the false beliefs she has attributed to you. It is easy defeating the positions of your adversaries when you first tell your adversaries what those positions are.

Anne
Some of the shootings in the past couple of years have taken place in states with very liberal gun laws, and yet somehow nobody in that church or school or shopping mall or place of employment whipped out a weapon and expertly placed a perfect head-shot to stop the shooter. Why would that be? Clearly there is a gap between what pro-gun people say will happen and what really has happened. The only examples I can think of in which the gunman was stopped by an armed other are 1) the female security guard at the church a few months ago and 2) a guard at the US capitol. In both cases it was a guard doing his job, not somebody armed who just happened to be there. It seems to me that in all other cases the gunman has shot himself. I stand corrected if anyone can provide an example of an armed teacher, student, worshipper, or clergyman stopping the gunman with a shot. What you say sounds good in theory, only it doesn't seem to happen in reality.

King Liberal
The reason we cling to our, "More guns less crime" position is because we can readily back it up with hard data.

Look at all of the states that have concealed carry allowances. Look at the ones that dont. Now compare. Where are the highest numer of gun crimes? Yup. In the places where it is harder, and in some cases, virtually impossible for a law abiding citizen to buy a gun. Why? Because they feel inclined to obey the laws that the criminals who prey on them ignore.

Tell me king, how is it that a nation with roughly 200 million firearms is not experiencing at least five or ten million gun deaths a year? Because according to your logic, it should be. Here is a suggestion: What say you put your emotional knee jerk "feelings" aside for a moment and break down the actual statistics? 200 million guns, a figure that goes up anually by tens of thousands. Now if one tenth of one percent of those guns were used to kill, we could expect 200 thousand killings per year. The actual figure runs around ten to fifteen thousand. Unless I misscalculated somewhere, that means that less than one-one hundredth of one percent of guns in this country are used to kill every year. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

SJ Doc
Child? You want children going around armed? And this is not a silly question---last year on townhall a poster proudly announced that he was teaching his five year-old to shoot.

Signs and Bumper Stickers
King Liberal says he would put a "GUN FREE ZONE" in his front yard, but where can he (I) get one.

D R at 3:51 said he tried, unsucessfully, to sell Gun Free Zone bumper stickers. Couldn't even give them away.

King, I'll bet he can get one for you.
Or, go to any local print shop, sign shop, Kinkos and have one made up in minutes.

Gee, that was a tough one.

Darling lilly - Read the 14th Amendment
--
Particularly the Equal Protection Clause.

Before the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Bill of Rights protected individual rights only from invasion by the federal government.

After the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted, the Constitution also protected these specific and unenumerated rights from abridgement by state and local governments.

Thus a citizen of the United States was to be held invoilate in his rights against the governments of the several states as well.

So simple that even a "Liberal" should be able to understand the concept.

In the sense that it's entirely constitutional, it's very conservative.

--

Doddle
Here is one thing that troubles me. Let me state it in clear steps.

1) Conservatives feel strongly that they must have guns, that people should be armed even in school and church, and that they should be allowed to shoot with impunity anyone they perceive as a "threat".

2) Meanwhile, conservatives have become very intolerant of authority. All the time on townhall I read rants against smoking laws, helmet laws, speed limits, divorce and child custody laws, consumer protection laws, equal opportunity laws, civil rights laws, gun control laws, and just about any way the state controls the lives of citizens. Conservatives also resent and challenge the traditional authority of schoolteachers, college professors, lawyers, and physicians. They HATE authority.

3) So far we have seen all kinds of folks grab a gun and start shooting when they are angry, hurt, fearful, resentful, jealous, drunk, or nuts. And a t-shirt is sold that reads "I don't get mad---I get even". The message is "take the law into your own hands".

4) So I am wondering how long it will be until armed citizens start shooting traffic cops and other agents of the state whose job it is to enforce laws? It seems to me that conservatives, unless restrained by political balance, will lead this country into anarchy.

Local Control, Not
Someone explain this to me please:

1) Conservatives are always whining about how local control is better than federal control.

2) Some local communities have voted to have strict gun control in their own locality.

3) Federal law (via legislators who receive NRA payola) moves to take local control away from locals, forcing guns into that locality.

How is this consistent?

Ralph E - On dementia and restrictions
--
Dementia is possible at any age, as the result of a variety of clinical conditions; see http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec16/ch213/ch213c.html for a simple discussion with appropriate references.

As for whether there should be "no registering of or restrictions on gun ownership in America," you're goddamned right that's what I mean.

Remember that the battles of Lexington and Concord (and the British force's damn-near-G.M. 100-ed retreat to Boston) came about as the result of Thomas Gage's orders to confiscate military stores - including cannon, gunpowder, and shot - accumulated by the illegal (i.e., assembled in defiance of the Crown) miliia companies we now refer to as the "Minutemen."

This country *BEGAN* with violent resistance against "restrictions on gun ownership."

How is anyone to argue against the moral and legal legitimacy of our country's foundation?



--
"Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon - rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything - any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission."

-- L. Neil Smith, "The Atlanta Declaration"


SJ Doc
So what your saying is their should be no registering of or restrictions on gun ownership in America?

Even the NRA is for banning certain weapons.

Ron
Dementia is not a funny subject sir. Also, I'm a tad bit too young to have such a condition.

Finally, I don't believe in firearms. Your scenario would never occur.

The whole idea of firearms licensure...
--
...is, in itself, a blatant violation of the Second Amendment.

Everyone reading in this thread needs to keep in mind that the Articles of the Constitution's Bill of Rights do not *GRANT* rights to any person in these United States.

What they do is create explicit prohibitions on *GOVERNMENT* agencies and officers which were enacted to preserve against government infringement the already-existing and undisputed rights of the private citizen.

You cannot prohibit the exercise of a specifically protected *RIGHT* to everyone except those who have been explicitly "permitted" by agents of government.

That explicitly contradicts the language and the clear intention of the Second Amendment, and is therefore a criminally malfeasant (even treasonous) usurpation of power, and warrants for those public officials as may enact or attempt to enforce these statutes such punishments as are warranted by law.

Including death.

As the law of the land, the Bill of Rights specifically and unequivocally "chains down" the federal government - and by extension via the Fourteenth Amendment, the governments of the several states - from this and other violations of the rights of the citizens of these United States.


--
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence. It is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions, to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power... Our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which, and no further, our confidence may go... In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:388

Left rudy right
Just for the record..left rudy...you may want to get a book titled "more guns less crime" wriiten by Jon lott...great read

LeftRudyRight
LeftRudyRight writes: Friday, February, 15, 2008 7:30 PM

"Rich D. re: PA laws
Philly has the same gun laws as the rest of the state."

This is NOT true for open carry:

PCS Title 18, Chapter 61, Subchapter A, § 6108
No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

- such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
- such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

Ralph Ellison is obviously...
a very intelligent person...(IMHO)...soooo question....
Is all of America safe if YOU WERE a person whom was granted a right to carry a concealed weapon...
Or would we all be at risk from your dementia? :)

Tell Pharoah...
"The D.C. murder rate was declining before this law; in the next 15 years it jumped 200 percent."

Actually yes and no. The murder rate in 1974 was 277 individuals. In 1975, it was 235. However, around this time, more stringent law enforcement efforts were stepped up. In 1976, the year the ban was installed, the rate dropped to 188. Also, over the following years, the rate reached as low as 147 deaths. However, the crack epidemic reached its peak, like it did in almost every urban area in America. Also, one could also say that the murder rates over the last 5 years are lower than the 5 year span from 1971-1976 before the ban was installed.

Perhaps Pharoah, it is working?

Thank you Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison !
At least someone is standing up for our Constitutional Rights.

I find it funny...
that no DC residents replied. As a DC resident and taxpayer (without congressional representation), I find it funny that KBH will ignore the even greater issue: the HUGE influx of illegal guns from Southern states in particular to DC. How does the NRA propose dealing with this issue?

Personally, I have never and will never own a gun. Not the hunting type (people or animals). Exactly what will allowing people to arm themselves do to the overall homicide rate in DC? Will it decrease or increase? Shouldn't the District government have SOME control over ourselves, especially when the vast majority of citizens are for such a ban?

Savage
Time to sign off, I appreciate the responses. I agree that there is a lot of garbage thrown out there about guns (and sex) than many other topics. But it definitely comes from both sides. My screen name is indicitive of where I stand on most issues, but on this one I am firmly to the right. But even here I accept that there needs to be some responsible legislation and enforcement of gun laws to help keep us all safe. As I mentioned on another thread on this topic some months ago, we should be able to agree that criminals are getting their hands on guns and they must have been bought somewhere legally at some point. Unless we as gun owners cannot police our own to take care of this problem, we need a little help from the man. Final thought, not really a rookie (maybe as a poster here), but I always appreciate a little bit of good advice. Cheers and good night.

Savage99
Don't worry: I will take your advice to heart!!

As well as the "Shoot low"!

;-)

LeftRudyRight
Always remember, never say never or always. Most posters are honestly striving here for the greatest good for the greatest number. There are a few trolls who stroll by to pick a fight. Except for sex, there is more garbage stated as fact concerning firearms than anything else. Keep looking. The truth will emerge. In the meantime, shoot low. Only rookies shoot high. Shoot low.

savage
You are spot on in your assesment of comparing US with non-US stats. I should have stuck with my Philly vs DC comparison. Because, even here we see an example of very different laws leading to sadly similar results and only a couple of hundred miles away. Again, I support gun rights because of what the Constitution clearly states, but its tough for me to accept the absolute conclusion made by some on this thread that less laws/more guns always leads to less crime.

Rich D. re: PA laws
Philly has the same gun laws as the rest of the state. That has been the central issue in the debate between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, with those in Philadelphia arguing that they should have the right to enact their own gun laws and the state saying that they don't.

PA Laws
There is no permit needed to carry open in PA; any adult can at anytime. They got away with more restrictions in first-class cities, i.e., Philly. The permit is needed only for concealed carry or loaded carry in the passenger compartment a vehicle.

LeftRudyRight
As i mentioned in a post above, one quickly finds himself comparing apples and oranges when he uses firearms use in other countries to justify US law. Anti-2nds love to bring up England. Pro-2nds counter with Switzerland, Finland and Sweden. The United States culture and situation is unique. I would note that in 1927 the only prohibition about buying a gun in most of Britain was you had to be over 12 years old. They had a law abiding culture which denigrated guns. The firearms crime rate was less then than it is now. I know of no firearms law which reduced illegal use of firearms, barring draconian punishment like death. The trumpeted "assault rifle" ban had no discernible effect when put in place and no effect when it expired. Totally predictable, despite wild claims by anti-gunners at the time of both events. Long guns of ANY sort account for less than 2% of firearms crimes and the mis-named assaault rifle ban, (which was actually only a ban on pistol grips and folding stocks) impacted a very small per cent of that 2 per cent. Statistically lost in the mud, billions were spent in an effort to enforce it, and 89 people including many under 12, were burned alive in Waco in its name.

savage & loba
My thanks for your responses and opinions. I have seen some of the statistics used by both sides of the argument, and, as savage alluded to when suggesting the NRA as a source, they tend to skew to one side or the other depending on who the source is. Those who support gun control point to countries (UK, etc) where stricter gun control and lower homicide rates then the US' rate seem to coincide. Those who oppose it point to places like DC. What I have not found is a comprehensive statistical source that proves one side or the other to be right/wrong on the issue, despite some other posters on this thread proclaiming them so. If I was trying to make a point (which, I assure you, I was not) it would be that this is an issue where statistics don't seem to be useful, so I would take caution in using them to make blanket declarations one way or the other.

Rich D.
You are quite right. However, we live in a world twisted into something less than perfection. Best to use what's available as we continue the battle with the unbeatable foe...reality, as we reach for the unreachable star...perfection.

Gun Control
Three under a quarter at 20 feet.

No preconditions, period.
"If you apply for a CCW, you have to successfully complete a 2 week training course and a background check."

NO! This is not a privilege like driving - it is a fundamental right not granted by the government. As soon as you require preconditions, they will be made impossible to pass. Look at what happens now when some two-bit sheriff can refuse to issue a permit. Are there preconditions on the right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, private property?

How can one state deny you the right to drive on their roads? CCW permits are an undue restriction, also. Let's all just carry open.

King Liberal
"that mentality exists in precious few places."

I can't disagree with you on that.

The rap culture demonstrates my point.

King Liberal
King Liberal writes: Friday, February, 15, 2008 2:11 PM

"whatever
even with yet another college massacare the right to bear arms is still more important than the saftey of our children. Great going. Reason enough to get you republicans out of office and the sooner the better."

And the US Constitution? Do liberals read it? We know that most Dems don't care for it.

The idiot had time to reload. Not if I'd been there. Oh yeah, we "allow" criminals to have guns. Know why they are called "criminals"?

And what about the tyranny of governments?

King Liberal of 5:51
Bang on, my good man. Rudy did it exactly right, enforcing the laws against possession and use of guns by criminals. It is a federal law for a felon to possess a gun. Almost NEVER enforced. Richard Nixon (memory) tried a trial program financing federal agents in several cities to take charge of trials involving convicted felons being caught with a gun. Gun crimes dropped like a rock in Richmond, one of the trial cities. NRA policy has always been stick it to those who use a gun for criminal purposes. This is my policy also, and i have a CCW permit in case i find my self in a situation where it is not practical to wait until more proper authorities can do this for me.

king liberal
Lay off the demagoguery about arming children. College students are not children. They are adults with every right to protect themselves. Having recently graduated from the University of Arizona, I can attest to the unbelievably high crime rate of campuses. The University neighborhood is the most dangerous in Tucson.

New York's draconian gun control laws predate Giuliani. They did not help during the 70s and 80s anymore than today. New York enjoyed a two decades of remarkable economic gentrification. This will ineveitably improve a city's crime rate. Similar gun control experiments have produced disasterous results in U.S. cities, not to mention Great Britain and Australia. Please spare me any mention of Norway which has a population equal to the Seattle metropolitan area yet more oil wealth than much of the mid-east.

Unless you have devoted your life to martial arts and body building, you are naive not to arm yourself. There is simply no other way to protect your family from a larger assailant. The police cannot be expected to be every place at once unless you want to live in a "police state". The left's view of "police states" fluctuates depending on who is president.

King Liberal
Good for you. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words. I'm certain your sign will be a neighborhood conversational piece.

King Liberal
You may have accidentally hit on something when you mentioned the gun culture.

We used to have a gun culture and certainly we need one now.

A gun "culture" is an environment where people are trained at an early age to use and respect firearms. They are trained in the responsibilities of firearm ownership and use.

Unfortunately, Federal, State and local governments have become hostile to "ownership" which has unintended consequences far beyond the right to keep and bear arms.

With no ownership, there is no responsibility. With no responsibility, there is no control. We live in a society that is losing it's ability to control themselves and therefore is prone to more impulsive and violent behavior.

The solution is a return to self-reliance and self-responsibility. At this rate, it's a very VERY long term goal.

Bigfootbob
I have asked that question to a few dummies before and they all say "no" after a long pause but they don't change.
Good luck with King lib, and don't expect much.

LeftRudyRight
Personally, I'm not a fan of the police force. IMO, we have WAY too many laws and FAR too many "law enforcement" officers. None of them seem to grasp that their real job is to protect our rights and not to protect us from ourselves.

This is why I think Dr. Lott is a bit off the mark. This is also part of my complaint with most conservatives who believe a strong police force is the answer to law and order.

I suspect that, as in the UK, people in PA are simply afraid of the consequences of defending themselves. Add that to the chances the criminal will suffer little or no consequences and just maybe you'll end up with a higher murder rate.

From a couple of reliable sources, I understand that the criminal court system in PA is notoriously corrupt, especially in Carbon County. Remember the Molly Maguires? ; )

No rule of law and no consequences gives you yer everyday, run o' the mill mayhem.

LeftrudyRight
You ask a pertinent question. My statistics on Florida were widely published in newspapers at the time, but little help in your quest for current accurate unassailable facts. I would think Lott's book, More Guns, Less Crime would contain statistics to show changes in violent crime as states adopted right to carry laws, but i haven't read it so can't really say. You might write the NRA, they usually have booklets on hand with latest statistics to back up this claim, but they are hardly neutral. Google may well have crime statistics by state, in which case you could look up states which passed right to carry laws for the date of same, and then check stats before and after.

YLG
Just read an article on the Bersa pronouncing it a best buy. As good as the best, for less money. Shoot it lots, most automatics get smoother and more reliable for the first couple thousand rounds, and so do new shooters.

Cam
Good point, and one often neglected. However, the bill of rights and the powers delegated to the Federal govt are not local, and local laws are constrained not to be unconstitutional. There are about a million laws regulating local behavior that are unconstitutional under strict construction and should be left to the locals, but the right to self defense is not one of them.

KING LIBERAL
has a good point there but, if he parts his hair just right most folks probably won't notice it. SENATOR KBH KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY!!!!!

LobaAzul
I appreciate both your take on the right to bear arms and the link, and am familiar with both the author and the article. Unfortunately, Mr. Lott asks a lot of questions (many of which are asked everyday by Philadelphians like myself), but offers very little in the way of solutions. I would be more than happy to hear how he would either more effectively use the police force or raise the conviction rate, but he offers an answer to none of his questions or critiques. But that still did not answer my request for the statistics cited by some of the earlier posters to this article.

A Question for King Liberal
Sir,

I have a direct question for you. A very simple question. Please give us a Yes or No answer.

Will you, sir, put a "GUN FREE ZONE" sign in your front lawn?

(No weaseling allowed. A sign with letters as large as those on the first line of the reading charts so that it can be seen from the street.)

Please sir, Yes or No.

Thank you.


Philly murders
There is another possible explanation. I personally know of 2 and have heard of other people who have been prosecuted and unjustly imprisoned for protecting themselves in their own homes with firearms in Pennsylvania.

PA is a commonwealth state and the courts often make up their own rules to suit their particular and peculiar whims.

As Mayor of Philly and now as governor, Ed Rendell has a reputation for being decidedly anti-rights, anti-gun.

LeftRudyRight
You have the right to keep and bear arms by virtue if being human - not because the right is given to you by the Constitution. It is an absolute right (along with it's absolute responsibilities) regardless of what the Supreme Court says and regulation of grenade launchers or 50 cal machine guns by the government is an infringement of that right.

As to why Philly is having an increased murder problem, perhaps this will offer some understanding:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott52.html

King Liberal
If I were to tell a trained auto mechanic that the carbuerator pistons in the manifold weren't firing properly, he would recognize immediately that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about.

For the same reason, we recognize that you know nothing about the dynamics of firearms in a society of free people. You are simply too ignorant of the facts to be even remotely persuasive.

In other words, you're way over your head on this one.

Philadelphia, PA
Sorry if this is a repeat, but my original attempt seems to have dissappeared. I support the right to keep and bear arms because it is written in the Constitution. Easy enough. I also have no problem with some reasonable regulation (no grenade launchers, .50 cal machine guns, etc). With that in mind, I am wondering if anyone can point me to these definitive statistics that show less regulation/ higher ownership leads to less crime. Living in Philly, with some of the most lenient regulations in the US, I am seeing the inverse as violent crime has been growing over the last decade. I don't like to use one off examples like Philly or DC to try to prove one side right or the other, so if someone could provide me with a link to those stats, I would appreciate it.

local control
Conservatives are always championing local control. Shouldn't an area like DC be able to choose its own gun laws? While rural areas may love their guns, the consensus in urban areas (including the police departments) is that they do more harm than good. It's pretty callous to trivialize an area's efforts to correct its problems.

King Liberal
The fear that guns in the hands of honest people will lead to escalating violence has been proved bogus over and over. King Liberal, if you owned a gun, i sincerely believe i would be safe from you. Why do you not have the same faith in honest people? Don't bring up the lawbreakers. Anyone, anywhere with a few hundred dollars and a little time can buy a gun, just as they can buy a woman or drugs. There are cultures that reject guns, just as there are cultures that severely punish adultery or freedom of religion, or insistance on privacy. But America is a relatively free country and should not be compared to other countries with lower firearm death rates due to factors which do not, and can not exist here.

Lolo: Problem is, thy don't get the

OBVIOUS!

I don't know how much more obvious we could make it for them.... and they STILL CAN'T GET IT.

Amazing, isn't it?





Anne
I know, I know, but sometimes for the libs you just have to state the obvious.


The problem with liberals and society in general they expect the government to prevent all bad things from ever happening, which of course is impossible. This is how we have managed to get so many stupid laws on the books. Instead of punishing the individual swiftly society just punishes everyone.

hagar
Here's my plan:

If you apply for a CCW, you have to successfully complete a 2 week training course and a background check.

BUT:

Upon completion of that course, you are allowed to carry IN EVERY STATE OF THE UNION and cannot be denied this right by "Gun Free Zones".


Savage & Lolo: That's exactly the point!

Seems our "friendly neighborhood sociopaths" are brighter than our "friendly neighborhood libersl."


Hey Hank_Scorpio
Why dont people know the basic laws of self defenese? Cant they squeeze that in among all the crap they force down the kids throat in school?

Savage99
There is exactly data out there that shows sociopaths are not only smart but many are at genius level, but even an average IQ would be able to figure it out one would think.

Moonkeeper
Down 72 per cent. Really great. Here in Florida where we were one of the first to pass a right to carry law, violent crime dropped over 35 percent over night. Some years ago, in the 80's Orlando had a busy serial rapist. The sheriff offered a free firearms safety and familiarization class for females. Over 2500 ladies showed up the first Saturday. It took a couple months to put All of them through the ad hoc course. The kicker is that the rapes stopped immediately. Almost certainly, the rapist moved to greener pastures. Probably to some place like DC or NYC where he feels much safer. Criminals are sociopaths, not stupid. And with Arizona, Oklahoma and Missouri all passing local laws providing punishment for hiring or sheltering illegal aliens, the illegals are leaving in droves, as evidenced by the demand for entry level hirees. Note no deport action was required.

No protection without guns
Without the right to bear arms, there is literally no protection for average citizens -- that means people shopping at a shopping mall, students on a college campus, drivers at a rest stop on the highway, patrons in a restaurant, people at a county fair. These are all huge massacres waiting to happen -- to say nothing of the increasing number of home invasions where innocent people are slaughtered for no reason, just because someone wants to burglarize.

Anyone who thinks that the police -- any police in any municipality -- can possibly be sufficient to protect everyone everywhere is dreaming. Anne said above, and she is correct: "Gun free zones" only say "open season" to the nutcakes among us, and there are way too many of them running lose for my comfort level. Better to be armed and never have to shoot than to be gunned down by a fruitcake, courtesy of a leftist government, ridiculous gun control laws and a bunch of mush-hearted liberals.

KL: You may have a point, No one will

be 100% SAFE...

But there is no question we WILL BE SAFER!

The stats are there to prove it....


And once again...........

People ARE allowed to carry guns, the crime rate goes DOWN.

People are NOT allowed to carry guns, the crime rate goes UP.

What part of this do you not understand?????????




More Nonsense
"As many people don't even know the basic laws of self defense we'll have a nation of Bernard Geotz's on our hands in no time with neighbor shooting neighbor and kids shooting one another in order to pre-empt potential situations."

Another hysterical statement. Like everyone will be handed a gun at the age of 10.

Talk about fear...

Thanks Senator Hutchison
I read your brief yesterday and was quite pleased with your (or your legal team's) arguments. I certainly hope that you are also delaying any action on the bill you've introduced to overturn the D.C. gun ban lest its passage render the present case moot.

Though I no longer live in Texas, I did vote for you for your very first term as Senator. Thanks for your efforts in this case and I hope I get to vote for you again in the not too distant future.

King Liberal has a point
But he missed the larger one. All of these gun massacres were done by people that have blood in their veins.

Why can't (us) conservatives see this greater truth? Only by banning blood and creatures that have it will crime be reduced.

Has ANYONE been able to make even a

modicum of sense with what KL posted?

How about even a little tiny bit of sense?

No, huh?

How about this, KL.

People ARE allowed to carry guns, the crime rate goes DOWN.

People are NOT allowed to carry guns, the crime rate goes UP.




make that...
..."bumper stickers"

For years now....
.... I've been trying to sell bumber stickers which say

"My house and car are gun free!"

I thought for sure there would be a large market for such a banner, especially in the "Blue States".

So far, I haven't sold one... heck I can't even give them away. I don't understand why no one would want to publicly annouce something like that.

Oh, well perhaps I should just concentrate on getting people to sign my petition to ban Dihydrous Monoxide.

If and When
When the police start showing up early enough to significantly reduce deaths in these college shootings, then I'll believe they are better able to protect us than we are.

When the police start showing up unarmed, then I'll believe guns aren't necessary for self-defense.

When the government proves it can keep illegal drugs out of the country, then I'll believe they can keep guns out of the country.

When the government proves it can find all the criminals in the country, then I'll believe it can find all the gun owners.

When the government starts reducing its size and power voluntarily, then I'll trust them to do so when they are the only ones armed.

When IED blasts become easier to dodge than gunshots, then I'll start to consider whether it's worth it to give up my guns so suicidal maniacs won't have any either.

When liberals give up driving and swimming, then I'll know they honestly think guns are too risky.

I just received ....
...a beautiful Bersa Thunder .380 as a Christmas gift, from my hubby. I am going to get my CCW this spring, and I am practicing at the local gun range.

As the wife of a soldier, who can be deployed at any time, this is a matter of not just protecting myself, BUT ALSO THE LIVES OF MY CHILDREN.

Thank you, Senator Hutchinson. I'm dang proud you are my senator.

besides...
It's been tried before and it doesn't work.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

Nonsense
"even with yet another college massacare the right to bear arms is still more important than the saftey of our children"

This is absurd. I don't even know where to start with this hysterical rubbish.

Right, let's blame the tool and not the one using it. Next it'll be contact sports...

Funny
How these nutbags only go after places where they know no one will be able to defend themselves.

A common misconception among anti-gunners is that these maniacs wnat a shootout. Complete rubbish. They go places like schools or movie theaters to kill people.

Notice how they always blow their own brains out before someone with a gun shows up?

Banning guns is just plain silly. Creating more laws for maniacs to ignore is nothing more than liberal masturbation. It makes those that pass the laws feel good, feel like they've done something when all they've done is make it easier for maniacs to find large groups of unarmed poeple to kill.

Who ever declares their property a "Gun Free Zone" automatically assumes the responsibility to protect everyone on their property. By denying those the right to defend themselves, they are responsible for their deaths.

The killers are ultimately responsible, but these places that deny a person their right to defend themselves have some culpability because they utterly failed to protect those people.

For you who would outlaw guns,
let me give you some food for thought. Yesterday, in New York, a woman was hacked to death with a meat cleaver. Damn. Think what he could have done to her had he access to a gun. Or better yet, think what she might have done to him had she possessed a gun.

Kennisaw, GA
had a crime problem. They passed a law requiring every house to have a gun. Crime has fallen 72%.




DC
There is a reason it has one of the highest gun crime rates in the nation. That district has fallen in love with the exact policies folks like King Liberal think are the way to go.

Oh and King, will you please stop jerking our leg with all your, "the children!!!" nonsense? Every time you folks cant back up your positions you try and shame others into agreeing by dropping that little gem on us. We are not buying.

King Liberal
"even with yet another college massacare the right to bear arms is still more important than the saftey of our children"

This actually occurred in a "gun-free" zone, once again prooving the old adage "Make guns criminal and only criminals will have guns."

Furthermore, far more children have been killed and/or orphaned by tyrannical government oppressing an unarmed citizenry then by random acts of violence in areas where law-abiding citizens are not forbidden to carry guns.

More LIMITED LIBERAL thinking!!!

"... even with yet another college massacare the right to bear arms is still more important than the saftey of our children."

First of all, someone who intends to do harm to innocent people will have a gun.. or guns.

These are the folks who don't care about the law. That is a given!!!!!

Know what a "gun free zone" means to those people? It mean "open season" on those those innocent people; NO ONE will be able to protect themselves.

Got it so far???

How many innocent, totally UNPROTECTED students were murdered at UVA?

How many innocent, totally UNPROTECTED students were murdered yesterday?

Exactly what part of "The D.C. murder rate was declining before this law; in the next 15 years it jumped 200 percent." didn't you understand?






King Liberal
Yes, well those college students died, because people like you denied them the right to protect themselves. Not a single one of the murdered was carrying a firearm. They were easy targets for a man who ignored all of the fuzzy good intentions of people like you. And that man also ignored about a dozen laws folks like you backed.

Why is it that you blame others for your own support of bad policy? Moreover, why do these lone gunmen always target places where they know there is a NO Tolerance policy towards carrying firearms? The thing is, you dont like guns. You have a visceral distrust of them and a contempt for anyone who would feel the need to own one. Am I far off there? Well forgive me if I do not bow to your irrational fears and naive worldview. And do me a favor: spare me the expected retorts about small genetalia and mid life crisis compensation. I have heard all those silly arguments before.

Liberals are abject cowards
Have you noticed that these nuts "open up" at gun-free zones, knowing there will be no return fire. They never start shooting at gun shows or gun shops. An armed society is a polite society

King Liberal Hypocrite
OK to attack gun rights but...
Nnot OK to take away Terrorists privacy rights (your post on FISA thread). Sheesh!

You are at least true to your tag King Liberal :)

Why we need guns . . . .
The reason we all down here in Texas need guns is because we have had politicians like the good senator Hutchinson who have been opening our borders to anyone and everyone who might care to come through and work, or commit crimes - as they please. Why doesn't she see that? She'll never get my vote.

Thank You Sen. Hutchinson
Your efforts to protect our gun rights are appreciated.

Fellas
If you need a reason to support McCain, then let this be the one. The Second Amendment barely survived 8 years of Clinton. It will not survive 8 more. Even if some of the pro-gun democrats in the senate like Tester block serious legislation, Hillary will use the supreme court to subvert the Bill of Rights. A few more Breyers on the Supreme Court and our right to bear arms will vanish.

Senator KBH
This Texan reminds folks that theUS Code defines the US militia as being made up of all able bodied citizens under age 45.

I just wish Congress and the Senate would support the Constitution in other ways, such as welfare, public housing, prescription drugs programs, other entitlement rpograms, earmarks....

DC Gun Control
Let it be clear that the presence of weapons serve mainly to protect the innocent from not only criminals but also from a government which if uninhibited by presence of guns could and would walk all over its citizenry.

It is the natural impulse of those in power to attempt to remain in power, but they can only remain by consent of a well armed constituency, unless of course those in power can coax said constituency to relinquish arms.

Witness bully cops and bully politicians trying to pry guns away, If the guns are gone, there is no preventive measure in place to put the bullies down. This is not to say armed revolt is probable, but the mere possibility of armed revolt chills any attempt to exert force on citizenry.

The latest event in Illinois illustrates vividly that if one or two students were armed and ready, the carnage would have been drastically reduced. Had the shooter suspected guns were present as a deterrent, he would have considered more carefully his actions.

Guns do not need to be used to prevent criminal acts, their presence is the deterrent.

UH OH!!!!!!!!
Cheney signed on to this, crapola Batman!! This might not turn out so good for the Constition and the rights of the people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A different interpretation
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I know that I am not the first to suggest this but we must consider the possibility that the purpose of the people to keep and bear arms is to regulate the militia and insure the state remains free.
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