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Friday, April 10, 2009
Sandy Rios :: Townhall.com Columnist
Rick Warren’s Holy Week Crisis
by Sandy Rios
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“Even if others do, I will never deny you,” declared the Apostle Peter some 2000 years ago just hours before he did exactly that, three times, when the heat was on. Ten others boasted the same, but when the risk was more than theoretical, all deserted Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. Only one was seen at the cross.

A fascinating story … the “old story” as the secularists like to call it. Barack Obama alluded to this in his speech in France. We need a new story, a discovery of “new ways” of thinking. We must throw off the old and embrace a much more enlightened, intelligent point of view. By doing so, we remove inconvenient barriers, cumbersome moral values and achieve self-determination with our new understanding of the world guiding the way. Surely we cannot be bound in this advanced new age by the old moral codes or put plainly, by what Jesus taught. Certainly not if we are to curry favor with the world in which we live.

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This Holy Week, a key portion of the “old story” has been revisited in a very contemporary way. The last instruction Jesus gave as he left earth was Christ followers should tell His story of forgiveness and redemption not only in their communities, but to the “ends of the earth.” And as His followers told the “old story” they should not leave out all the other things as well. In the second part of the Great Commission, Christ admonished his followers to teach others “to obey all the things I have commanded you.” He wanted future generations to go beyond mere intellectual understanding and move to actually living out the principles … walking the walk.

One of those principles was marriage. “For this reason shall a man leave his parents and join with his wife and the two shall become one flesh,” Jesus instructed. One man, one woman, for a lifetime, with no sex outside of that union.

Fast forward to 2009: California voters of various religious persuasions, in a ballot measure called Proposition 8, held to the traditional view of marriage—a union between a man and a woman. Subsequently challenged in court, as the battle ensued, Pastor Rick Warren, author of “The Purpose Driven Life” and pastor of Saddleback, one of the largest churches in the country, deeply influential, rightly told his congregation “…if you believe what the Bible says about marriage, you need to support Proposition 8. I never support a candidate, but on moral issues I come out very clear.” Until this week … Holy Week.

On the first Holy Week Peter promised Jesus, “Though others may turn away, I will never deny you.” But then in the chill of night in a courtyard just outside the place of Jesus’ trial, as others around the fire began to probe his relationship to Jesus, he quietly denied even knowing him. No one was threatening his life, but the derision increased and with every barb, until Peter’s denial escalated to a curse as he emphatically denied he had ever known Jesus.

Peter was worried about his reputation. He didn’t want to be the odd man out in the courtyard over the fire … it wasn’t a Roman soldier with a sword who challenged him, it was a mere servant girl.

“On moral issues I come out very clear,” declared Rick Warren when writing in the safety of his office. But when confronted by homosexual friends and Larry King this week, he folded just like Peter. Now, to be clear, he did not deny Christ, but he backpedaled so fast from where he previously stood and reinterpreted his previous statements in a way that strains credulity. He went on to describe how he has “apologized” to his homosexual friends for making comments in support of Proposition 8. He “never once gave an endorsement” of the marriage amendment, he declared.

And in one fell swoop, he not only separated himself from the biblical teaching on marriage, but distorted the past in the process. Seduced by the pressure of fame? Driven by the desire to please his friends? Afraid to be seen as bigoted to a national television audience? Whatever the motivation, the behavior is no less significant.

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Rick Warren did not deny Christ on Larry King. But every believer who was watching had to question whether Rick was being faithful to the commission Christ left him with: Teaching others to “obey all the things I have commanded you.” And obedient biblical teaching on marriage is not a particularly difficult matter. Unpopular? Yes. Unclear? Hardly.

After Peter executed his betrayal, he went out and wept bitterly. On Larry King, Rick Warren went on to tell about his profuse apologies to his gay friends. In the broad scheme of things, I don’t think Rick Warren needed to apologize to them at all. An apology to Christ? Now that would be entirely in order.

This Holy Week, let’s pray America’s Pastor Rick Warren will not let this story end here.

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About The Author
Sandy Rios is a Fox News contributor and host of the "Sandy Rios Show", heard weekdays from 3 to 5PM on WYLL AM1160 in Chicago.
 
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The Right Reverend Warren
Those pastors who do not espouse, preach, advocate, and stand up for the teachings of the Bible and, therefore, God, should quit pretending that what they lead is a church. Their tax-exempt status should be taken away. Warren should rightfully start calling his building The Church of What's Happening Now.

I intend to return to Mr. Warren my copy of The Purpose-Driven Life, and I would urge everyone else to do so as well.

Hmmm?
If he never endorsed prop 8, then why the apology?

I have long questioned
Mr. Warren's theology, so this obvious recanting of his earlier "clear" statement is no surprise to me. He needs to repent, not of his support of Prop. 8, but of this obvious lie of NOT supporting it.

Well doesn't matter
We've seen about nine different versions of that story in about nine different religions of that time, so getting a few details wrong really doesn't matter much.

Purpose Driven Life My Foot!!
Does Mr. Warren fear the gays more than he fears the Everlasting God? I still have his book and I am going to send it back with a note attached. I had previously lost any respect I had for him when he gave the invocation (and with it his approval) at Obama's ignoble assemblage of witch doctors. He is a Judas who sways with the wind.

Vice is a monster of so horrid a mien
That to be hated needs but to be seen.
But seen too oft, familiar with its face,
We first endure,
then pity.
then embrace.

Jesus said to "take up your cross and follow me." Mr. Warren appears to be unable to bear the cross that would separate his beliefs from those of his gay congregation members.

Is this is the state of Mr. Warren? If so, he may soon fall on his own sword.

As a Christian
Marriage first of all started as an act between one man one woman and God. That was the union, that is why civil unions are the same mockery as gay marriages. But any ceremony performed by government officials is not in union with God, if it is not the will of God, it is a mockery of the will of God. It is subject to the wrath of God, divorce is defiance and also is subject to the wrath of God. Look it up in the word of God. Jesus taught, not the law of Moses.

Not surprising
This is precisely why I converted to Catholicism. Mr. Warren, if your version of facts is correct, backpedaled from traditional, orthodox teaching, probably because in his opinion, he is not entirely sure what the Bible teaches: do you teach respect, loving neighbors, hating sin - loving the sinner, or what exactly? Is there a difference between secular gov't/society and religious beliefs/church life?

There is so much philosophical confusion in Evangelical life that this is the natural tending of things: moral/philosophical confusion because one person can't possibly figure it out alone: he needs a 2,000-year-old infallible Church and Pope -- and the graces given by God to this same Peter mentioned -- to get through the complex problems we have. Mr. Warren just exemplifies what I completely understand and expect: he's not infallible.

Evangelicals, the intellectual coherence you'll finally experience joining the Church more than will make up for the raised eyebrows of your friends and co-religionists. Millions are making the journey...I invite you to at least look into it.

The Purpose Driven Pastor
...who is having a hard time figuring out the Purpose of Marriage in our society. Typical moral/philosophical confusion rearing its ugly head to Christians again.

He's just not getting up...
...that dead horse you keep beating.

Face it. The anti-gay bigotry is now a losing proposition.

Slowly, surely, this issue is being settled in progress towards the inevitable conclusion.

Or, no matter how much you keep beating him, (if you think you see an occassional twitch, it is only a postmortem muscle spasm,) that horse just ain't gonna be getting up.

not government's right
It is not in the purview of government to redefine millenia-old terms such as marriage.

Attempting to add this to their growing list of power over our lives is truly ignorant. Do you think an Orwellian environment would happen overnight? Once they can redefine terms like 'hate' and redefine cultural concepts like 'marriage' then a whole slew of new options pop up for the statists.

PS. Traditional marriage law ARE equal rights. I can marry a woman, and a gay man can marry a woman. I can't marry a man, and neither can a gay man. Both are being treated equally under the law; however the two ACTS are not treated equally under the law. Its not a civil rights issue no matter how you twist it to be.

Rick Warren/weak and apologetic
Apparently Pastor Warren is trying to increase the size of his flock at the expense of his beliefs.

That's the trouble..
with "progressive" people. They no longer want to be directed by the beliefs that were once held very dear. The Bible is being seen as old fashioned and no longer worth the effort to follow or uphold. It's no wonder the Islamic fanatics continue to attack Christianity, they are being helped by those who believe their personal interests far out way the word of God. Christianity and the Bible are becoming the pariah of society, as it's no longer politically correct to voice a defense of the values/beliefs held within those hallowed pages. Other religions are offended by those that follow Christianity, yet Christians cannot be offended by those that hate, and want to irradicate Christianity. To do so is considered immoral, racist and intolerant.
The Liberal Democrats are destroying the faith that this country was built on, they are destroying the very fiber that made this country great, they are putting the lives of miliions of Americans in danger with their defense policies, and they are progressively destroying the Constitution that does not give them the power that they seek.

No apolgies necessary
good article...we need to end this crazy way society has for apologizing for everything....it's time we choose sides, and then stay with a side....Jesus would not need to apologize to anyone.....

fallible
Humans make mistakes - the more public their life, the larger the audience. I'm not going to "pile on" Rick Warren; he is in the process of proving that he is just as human as me.
I just pray he picks a direction and sticks with it before this is compounded further.

Rick Warren
Rick Warren should resign immediately. If he does not, his congregation should fire him.

"To be clear, he did not deny Christ'
That's the only wisdom in this article. Waffling on prohibitions against love is not denying Christ - it's engaging the spirit within.

The tension happening now in the spiritually aware is the pull between the dead law of letters and the living law of love.

The living law does not destroy the dead, but fulfills it anew.

Everyday, we evolve spiritually. God is a process, a verb not a noun.

Rick Warren has his God on! Hopefully he will serve as inspiration to fellow Christians.

A Golden Calf ?


I have a belief, that when Churches became more about 'Big Business' than about teaching the gospels, we lost religion as our ancestors knew it.

Most any church will accept anyone who is a large donor.

My wife was in a service, many years ago, where the 'preacher' chastised the congregation about their paltry contributions to the plate.

Instead of saying the church needed more money, he called the congregation stingy.

"If you can't give more than $ 5.00, don't bother coming back."

Needless to say, she did not go back there.


~~~

In the last few years, I have seen about 10 - 15 new churches built in a community of about 50,000 people. From the size and glory of the buildings, it seems to me the churches now praise material goods, wealth and pomp over scripture.


So! Is Rick Warren out of the main-stream, or has the country simply deteriorated into Sodom and Gomorrah ?

We now worship objects and wealth.

Let us cast a statue of gold in the image of a calf, so that we may have something worthy to idolize.

Someone contact Rick Warren...
Lots of money here...


paranoidmystic
And that is the difference between you an me. I am a Biblical Christian...you are a process theologian.

Ricky Moze...



While Rick is at it, maybe he can re-write the tablets, in the form of the 'Ten' or so
suggestions. To cite a few, while paraphrasing them...

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" ( Unless you think that is ok. )

"Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" ( Unless there is more money there.)

"Don't smite thy neighbor" ( Unless you can get rich by doing so. )

"Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother" ( Unless they are adults. )

~~~

And a caveat for the Sodomites and Gommorahns, grab that pillar of salt as ye exit stage left. Salt shallt become the new trading commodity as the civilization ye knew is destroyed.

Ye shalt wander for forty years in the desert of Cowlifornicate, ye will search for an oasis, ye shall find salt brine and tare and ye shall feed upon the serpents and the slime under rocks.

Well! It IS what you voted for!



having never listened to Pastor Warren..
I know I can't comment on whether he is similar to the preacher Ratas y Ratones mentioned.
I know that there are a number of churches who are following very much in the footsteps of Paul, who adapted his methods to the culture in which he was speaking without sacrificing the underlying message.
I know a lot of folks can't stomach the idea of a church that doesn't have an organ or a choir, but until I hear the specific message the man preaches, I'm not ready to condemn him because of the popularity of his church.
Jesus once spoke to a crowd of at least five thousand - does that invalidate his message? Let he who is without sin...I'm just sayin'.

We all...
... unfortunately, act differently when we are in the spotlight. It is very bold for a pastor to tell you what to vote for. But really, that is what he is doing or should be doing when he steps up to his pulpit. A pastor should guide his congregation and holdfast to the teachings of the Church and Bible. Also he should imitate what he teaches.

1udagudguys...


1udagudguys
Location: GA
Reply # 21
Date: Apr 10, 2009 - 2:56 PM EST having never listened to Pastor Warren..
I know I can't comment on whether he is similar to the preacher Ratas y Ratones mentioned.
I know that there are a number of churches who are following very much in the footsteps of Paul, who adapted his methods to the culture in which he was speaking without sacrificing the underlying message.
I know a lot of folks can't stomach the idea of a church that doesn't have an organ or a choir, but until I hear the specific message the man preaches, I'm not ready to condemn him because of the popularity of his church.
Jesus once spoke to a crowd of at least five thousand - does that invalidate his message? Let he who is without sin...I'm just sayin'.

~~~

As I have never listened to the 'Ricky" I really do not know what is in his heart.

I cannot say whether The Warren is of the same ilk as the pastors I have experience with.

Nor do I particularly care.

My point was that any pastor who cares more about wealth, than the scripture,
is a NULL.

I AM NOT anti-religion! I believe the scripture should be stated as such, and adhered to.

Changing the scripture to meet the mores of the evil ones, is not in my plan !

If anyone has a problem with that, then you and I are in discord!

Your choice.



Mirrors Show The Truth.
Speeches about religion and values is just rhetoric. One honest look in the mirror will display the truth. It will show a money hungry glutton. Live with it and except Mother Natures creation.

Who will defend the Name of the Lord
Let me make it very clear to all...when a so-called christian or jew can not stand firm on the issue of Life and the issue of Family as it has been defined in the Holy Book then CHRISTAINITY AND JUDAISM IS MEANINGLESS..these are the cornerstones of civilization and religious faith...if you can not accept this..then create a new religion and do not call it christianity or judaism. Is this to hard to grasp?

Melvin
It is because of what we see in the mirror that we need Jesus.

Christians Worship the Godess Easter
It is ironic that Sandy would have you worry about keeping marriage between a man and a women. Where does it say that in the bible? The real conundrum facing Christians at Easter is 'worshiping no other gods."

Or in this case a Goddess.

speaking of apologies and repentance
I think Sandy Rios and the homophobes who post here ought to apologize, in person, to the families of each person killed in the last year for being gay or being thought gay, and each child or young adult who killed himself or herself rather than face another day of homophobic bullying.

This is the harm that you have wrought with your irrational hatred. Don't blame Christ for it.

Warren
I have always been skeptical of televangilists and mega churches. I am a Christian, I accept Christ as my lord and savior and that there is only one true God, but something about these people just doesn't sit well with me. I have never been able to put a finger on it.

Homosexuals
Can't accept the truth that they practice an unnatural and sinful act according the Bible.

No religious person has denied their right to practice their unnatural sex acts in private. But to acknowledge a marriage based on this unnatural sex act will never happen.

It seems so ridiculous for the homosexuals to keep believing they deserve special rights, but I guess that is what got them in their lifestyle to begin with.

Rick Warren continues to be the fraud and self promoter his has always been. Just leave it to my baby boomer generation and Orange County to produce such a man.

Uber
Idiotic post again. Christians are not worshipping a false god/goddess because the date is the same. We use this time to praise God for raising his son from the dead. And feel free to read the Bible - it says marriage is between one man and one woman.

Allen
What homophobes? The ones that follow the word of God and hate the homosexuality? We don't hate the homos just the sin.

Some reponses
DavidM: I have known gay men who have married women, and lesbians who have married men. Recipes for disaster and misery, usually ending in divorce. I don't think we should encourage such unions.

Kerri So Cal: Actually, many religious and even nonreligious people have denied gays the right to so-called unnatural acts in private. Not so long ago several states had antisodomy laws. In the case that finally resulted in the U.S. Supreme Court striking down the last remaining antisodomy laws, the police had been called to a private home to investigate a report of a disturbance involving weapons. The police found no such disturbance, but they found two men having sex and arrested them--for something they were doing behind closed doors, in a private home that belonged to one of the men.

The right to be free of discrimination based on your sexual orientation--a characteristic irrelevant to your ability to do a job, be a good tenant or homeowner, be a good citizen--is NOT a special right; it is a basic right. So is the right to marry the person you love, as long as both people are consenting adults and not blood relatives.

And while I have almost no respect for Rick Warren--he's been very two-faced about his stance on gay marriage--after seeing the abuse heaped on him here, I sort of feel sorry for him.

Who didn't see this coming, seriously?
If you follow Rick Warren, there was no doubt that this day would come. He is extremely flaky. He called Syria "a moderate country" and then denied it. But the problem was the audio was already on the internet.

We all sin, and pastors are no different. I don't condemn him for that, but I do think there are much better spiritual mentors out there than this guy.

That whatever orientation people
think they may have sexually--and it is not fixed like the color of your eyes or the shade of your skin--lesbians do marry men, and sometimes live successful lives, have children, never *come out.*

And vice versa.

Which is why there should be no desginations for sexual practices, which are not fixed inherently and may be entirely cultural or societal.

The great pagan civilizations in Mesopatamia, Egypt, Greece, and Rome acknowledged homosexuality and had no laws against it or moral prohibition denying it. But those societies which gave us the ideas of cities and the basis of civil law and moral philosophy NEVER saw any reason to change marriage to include two men or two women.

Gays like to blame Christians, forgetting Islam is not amenable to homosexuality either, but they would have had not case in ancient Rome either, where their argument for *civil rights* would have been seen as ludicrous, as giving *civil rights* to people who can change their sexual practices at whim are like amoebas and denigrate the great civil rights movements to eliminate racial discrimination, which cannot be changed by behavioral practices.

Possibly the Dumbest Thing Written on TH
Paranoidmystic writes: "The tension happening now in the spiritually aware is the pull between the dead law of letters and the living law of love. The living law does not destroy the dead, but fulfills it anew. Everyday, we evolve spiritually. God is a process, a verb not a noun."

I would be laughing, except I think that paranoidmystic actually believes such nonsense.

Book Peddlar
I never was much into the old book peddlar. Reminds me of another multi-level marketer. So it didn't suprise me when he met with
Senator Infanticide, and it doesn't surprise me that he's turned into a wimp.

Peter, on the other hand, was in shock. He was ready to die, sword in hand - cutting the ear off of Caiaphus' servant, Malchus. He was ready to go down swinging. The shock of Jesus, allowing Himself to be arrested? That's what it was: shock.

Imagine being in a line, all ready for war: your commander tells you to be ready (Jesus asked if anyone had swords; someone said "two," and He said: "that's enough.") Then suddenly, as the enemy appears, and you've jumped into battle, your commander tells you to stop, to lay down your arms. You - who were first to strike - wonder "what in the world?" You expected battle, not surrender.

That's Peter. He didn't wimp out at all.
But Rick Warren did. He surely did.

Rick Warren
What a shame. This terribly divisive issue, so small in comparison to Christ's death and resurrection, is separating us from worship of Jesus, who would transcend this, and many other, relatively minor issues. Though He was God, He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself. Lord, save us from ourselves. gene, Longmont, CO

Denying Jesus; The Truth

Since Jesus IS (I stress the word "is") the truth, then it only follows that to deny the truth, IS to deny Jesus.

Gary Gordon

lets see.... does the WORD mean much?
Luke 12:48 But the one who did not know his master's will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.

Luke 17:1 & 2 Jesus said to his disciples, "Stumbling blocks are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!
It would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown
into the sea4 than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.5

John 21:15 Then when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these do?" He replied, "Yes, Lord, you know I love you." Jesus told him, "Feed my lambs."


If Pastor Warren Made a Mistake
If Rick Warren made a mistake, he knows it and he knows he's been forgiven.

He's a great man, a great Christian, and a great human being.

I'll never forget his moving prayer at the inauguration of Barack Obama.

Gene
Truth, by its nature is divisive. Up, down in, out, correct, incorrect, air, vacuum. The Gospel does not come separate from the rest of Scripture. Jesus, emptying Himself, is the model that Warren is NOT following.

Uber and Easter
The holiday of Easter is tied to the Judaic holiday of Passover. The Passover lamb was a type pointing to the Lamb of God "who takes away the sin of the world." It has nothing to do with the sumerian godess ishtar. The idea that the word "Easter" is a corruption of "ishtar" has been debunked.

culturally relevant
Leaders at modern U.S.A. churches are culturally relevant (read: feminists) that condone divorce, single motherhood, dishonoring fathers, abortion, homosexuality, women in church leadership, among other things.

We ought not to be surprised in a pagan country were her supreme leader declares that she is not a Christian nation. No surprise here.

SRPOs
Like so many of the Televangelists, Tent Preachers, and Christ Cashiers before him, Warren is a SRPO, "Self Righteous Pious One."

During the book-selling phase of his "career" (not "calling"), he writes what he believes the faithful want to read. Having done that, and having made millions on his writings, he moves on to the next "career" phase, TV.

In order to EXPAND HIS FAME and MAKE MORE MONEY in TV, he wanted to jump right over the traditional Televangelist level, which is local and Christian broadcasting, to the MSM world of Larry King, CNN, NBC, etc. ad nauseum.

He has clearly surrendered his character to the secular world, having pole vaulted clear over love the sinner, hate the sin, to the secular progressive world of everything goes. You cannot interpret this any other way.

Renny
Religion is not a fixed characteristic, and is often societal or cultural, but we as a nation forbid discrimination based on religion. We also grant marriage licenses to interfaith couples. Certain houses of worship might not marry interfaith couples, just as they might not marry same-sex couples, and that is their right. But civil (not religious) marriage is available to interfaith couples, as it should be available to gay couples.

I believe that in most people, sexual orientation is inherent and fixed, and sexual orientation will influence what sexual practices you prefer. We all can make the choice to not engage in a certain practice, but I do not believe people's sexual practices should be a reason to deny them basic rights, including the right to civil marriage, as long as sexual relations take place in private between consenting adults. (Preemptive strike: No, merely acknowledging that one is gay, or participating in a gay pride event, even in scanty attire, is not public sex. I'm talking about having sex on the front lawn or in similarly public places, and I have no desire to witness that!)

Some people do have some fluidity in their sexual orientation--Dr. Alfred Kinsey, who I think was a brilliant man (although I'm sure many readers of this site despise him), believed there was a range in sexuality, with some people primarily or exclusively heterosexual, some primarily or exclusively homosexual, and some in the middle. In any case, I don't believe that one orientation is more natural or moral than another, and I don't think orientation should ever be the basis for discrimination. And I don't think sexual orientation or practices are changed at whim!

As for blaming Christians, I don't--I'm a Christian myself, a very liberal one. Fundamentalist Christianity is antigay, however, as is radical Islam or ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Almost all religions have both a tolerant and an intolerant strain!

DENYING JESUS
For the most part,everybody who calls himself a christian has at one time or another denied our savior.Churches on Sunday are empty,much to the fact they are fishin or out to the ball game.Thats's what I call denying the one who died for your sins.How long will we deny that we were made in his likeness and murder the unborn?We live in a sorry country, that at one time was called a christian nation.

Sandy Rios is right!
God said: "Let him who has My word speak My word IN TRUTH" (Jeremiah 23:28). It is time to confront those who claim to speak for God when they are clearly "not straightforward about the truth of the gospe (Galatians l:14).

What does opposing homosexuality have to do with the gospel? Everything--the gospel cannot be received without repentance from sin (Mark 1:15). Homosexuality is a sin--it can be forgiven, but only if it is acknowledged to be a sin and repented of. If supposed Evangelical pastors are backing down from the conviction that homosexuality is a sin and it must be universally confronted as such, what message does that send to the homosexuals--whose ONLY hope is that they rpent of their sin and submit to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? "He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion" (Prov. 28:13). If we fail to confront them, then but instead make them feel comfortable in their sin, then that iniquity becomes a solid barrier preventing them from being saved.

The Bible refers to practicing, unrepentatn homosexuals as "lawless...rebellious...ungodly...profane...and immoral (1 Timothy 1:9-10). They desperately need to be confronted with that truth and informed of the way of salvation before that time that "the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

More Like Bono Than Baptist Minister
Rick Warren has figured out it is more equitable to be a celebrity than a minister. He has gone the road like so many before him who have tasted fame and reaped fortune to only deny the One who blesses ultimately leading to a great fall. His credibility as a preacher is gone. He might as well go New Age or co-lead Oprah's cultist church if there is room for two large egos on the mic. Who knows maybe he is the one who enlightened Obama that Christianity is dead in America? Perhaps that is why Obama chose him for the invocation? Either way, Mr. Warren will be in our prayers and the people he has led astray. This can't be an easy Holy Week for him, but perhaps it will bring him closer to the Lord just like Peter?

If you want a faith-filled, redemptive Easter story about an Iraqi terrorist commander coming to Christ and becoming like Paul go to:

http://www.conservativewomenworking.org/opine

I just returned from church with my children, and I want to thank every soldier and veteran who fought so we can have this sacred freedom. I have felt great gratitude to you today, especially.

Rick has lost his way.
From his blockbuster "A Purpose Driven Life" I have had rservations about Rick Warren. When he went to Syria and allowed them to use him for propaganda purposes I thought that he should have known better than to visit that terrorist nation.

When bloggers criticized his trip he responded with anger. Not anger at the Syrian government, but anger at the bloggers who dared to question his judgement in going there.

Warren has transitioned from minister to world political personality. He has a mega-church. Ministering to his flock seems to be a full time job. Perhaps he could find his balance if he nipped his globe trotting in the bud and returned to serious cotemplation and expression of the gospel.

Our pastor wrote
a letter to the editor wrt homosexual behaviors being tolerated by some Lutheran bodies being trumpeted in our local paper. There was first a kind but firm clearing up of the confusion; not all Lutheran bodies accept the inerrancy of Scripture. The Missouri and Wisconsin Lutheran Synods do NOT endorse ANY kind of sexual immorality in their pastors or layman leaders. (As an aside, congregants who engage in sexual immorality are forbidden to take Communion until they repent and leave their sinful lifestyle. They can of course attend services.) There was no denial there of the fact that homosexual sin is just as damning as heterosexual sin, both of which are just as damning as any other sin. There was the Good News of forgiveness and renewal in Christ for all who repent, just as Scripture says. Interestingly enough there was not one rebuttal asserting intolerance nor was there any other trademark liberal smear.

My pastor is one tough cookie and were he in Rick Warren's place the outcome would have been very different.

God is constant. He never changes.
He never moves away. If we find ourselves farther and farther away from God, it isn't because God is leaving us; it is because we are leaving Him. Look at the nation. God is not leaving the nation; it is leaving Him. The people are being led by promises for self - self fulfillment, self worth, self gratification, self improvement, self enrichment, etc. It is all very narcissistic. Hey, look - I have a bellybutton. Me, me, me...

Sandi Rios
Great column. 5 stars.

being politically correct
is tempting and fashionable. I have written separately suggesting that the government get out of the marriage business (I have paid thousands of dollars in marriage penalty taxes over the years). I am from a culture where my most of my ancestors' marriages were not recognized by the state because they were not of the official state church in Ireland (which for hundreds of years was the Church of Ireland -- known in the U.S. as the Episcopal Church). Anyway, Warren is too chicken to simply state that all sex outside of marriage is wrong, and marriage is between a man and a woman. He should also say that homosexual sex is wrong on the level of sex outside of marriage or adultery. He should say that consentual swinging is also wrong. He could say that most people who are staight stray from God's expectations on sex -- so it would be unfair to single out gays anymore than men who go to strip clubs or hetero people living together before marriage.

What is there to question?
quote:
"Rick Warren did not deny Christ on Larry King. But every believer who was watching had to question whether Rick was being faithful.."
=======================

I have no question whatsoever.

I would never sit and listen to this guy preach, never.
He makes me puke

Rick's Inaugural Prayer
Jack David wrote:
I'll never forget his moving prayer at the inauguration of Barack Obama.
*********************************

Rick prayed the following:
"I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus, who taught us to pray"

Rick Warren prayed in the name of "Isa" the false Jesus of Islam. Isa, according to the Koran, was NOT crucified and was NOT resurrected from the dead and was NOT God. Rick Warren prayed to a FALSE JESUS.

I lost a lot of respect for Rick on this prayer alone! Obama is a muslim...he glorified himself on his world tour. If muslims come to control the new USSA, they will kill christians and jews and be left with atheists and homosexuals. Ooops, they don't like either. So much for live and let live!

Iosa
Iosa is Jesus in the Irish language -- perhaps "Isa" is Jesus in some language -- not necessarily the Koran. Christian Arabs (don't forget there are millions of them) likely call Jesus Isa in their native tongue. Sadly, most Americans (particularly Republicans) do not care about the Christians of Iraq. Perhaps 1/2 of them are gone -- thousands have been killed since our troops were in Iraq. Sadaam allowed them to practice their faith -- and he had many advisers who were Christian. Today, Christian Iraqis go to church in secret since they live in a theocracy. For that matter, women under the current Iraq have far fewer rights than the past. An Iraqi Catholic bishop was kidnapped and killed a year ago -- something that did not happen in the past. Christians thrived in Iraq for nearly 2000 years -- and over 1000 years while the majority of the country was Muslim. America's actions have likely destroyed this once vibrant minority religious community. Does anyone call the Bush administration on that? Do they say how un-Christian it was to allow the destruction of that community? They blame radicals for doing this murder and destruction. Before 2003, no radicals were targeting and killing Christians -- that only began when our troops landed. It is the fault of the Bush administration -- but it is another example of them (and much of the GOP) failing to take responsibility.

Proud Lib -God's Word says you're wrong.

Proud Lib writes: "In any case, I don't believe that one orientation is more natural or moral than another"


According to God's Word, you're wrong, no matter how "proud" or how "liberal" you might be.

The inspired Word of God in Scripture says that marriage is between one man and one woman. God calls sex (hetero or homo) outside of marriage "fornication", which is a sin. God calls homosexual conduct an "abomination".

So you're free to believe whatever you want to believe, Proud Lib. You're free to not believe that one orientation (or practice) is more natural or moral than another.

But God decides what is moral and what is not, and God says you're wrong.

And on Judgment Day, this argument will be settled, permanently. Because there is no one left to appeal to that is higher than God.

And God has already decided this issue.

You are certainly not the first man to go against God. It is worth considering that the track record of those who have opposed God is not a good one, for all of the obvious reasons.

The choice however, as always, remains yours.


FeargalX...
You should do your research before you post...I stand by my post regarding Isa. And as for the rest of your post, Hussein was a vile and sadistic killer of his own people. And Bush bashing is getting pretty lame nowadays...find a new source to place blame, ie. the truth!

Carol stick to the point
Do you have information that puts in doubt what has happened to Iraq's Christians since 2003? The reports I have seen leave little doubt that around 1/2 are gone -- and many of them were killed. These people lived fine under Sadaam Hussein. The fact that SH did other bad things does not somehow excuse what we let hit happen to the Iraqi Christians. It is the fault of our policy -- their blood in on Bush, Cheney and Rummy's hands. The remaining Christians can no longer freely worship -- their clergy is often killed. This group has thrived for well over 1000 years under a majority Islam leadership -- yet our invasion may permanently wipe them out. So, because I am a "Bush Basher" the plight of these Christians should be ignored. Yeah, it is not Bush's fault -- if it is not our fault whose is it? Who was in Iraq when this happened? Who was running the country? It was not SH -- it was the USA. What about accountability? Sadaam was terrible "he killed his own people" -- would you have been ok with him killing his Christian people instead of the Kurds? It appears that you (and many on TH) do not like Iraq's Christians much -- we have done nothing while they have been wiped out. That is not Rick Warren's fault.

Proud Lib - "Christian" who opposes God?

Proud Lib: “As for blaming Christians, I don't--I'm a Christian myself, a very liberal one.”


You do realize that it is impossible to be a faithful Christian and oppose or be disobedient toward God at the same time, regardless of what you call yourself?


Is it not the Lord who determines who belongs to Him?

“For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.” (2 Cor 10:18, KJV)


Throughout Scripture, those who are obedient toward God receive His blessings. Those who go against God, and who refuse to repent, are cut off from Him.

And contrary to the doctrine of men that teaches “once saved, always saved”, the inspired Word of God says otherwise:

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20-22)


There have always been many who *claim* to be Christian, while doing whatever they think is “right” in their own eyes, ignoring God and His Word:

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)


A “Christian” is one who follows Christ, and those people were called Christians first at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26).

Who belongs to the Lord?

Is it those who call themselves “Christians” but who believe and behave however they see fit, according to their own wisdom?


Or do actions speak louder than the claims of men?


“And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:21)

Do some reading Carol
Here are some links.

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/sept20.html

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/iraqipersecuitonjul287.html

http://www.persecution.com/recent_iraqChristiansKilled.html

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0704276.htm

Not too long ago, Christians were 7% of the Iraqi population. Today, they are maybe 2%. Pretty soon it will be less than 1%.

Oh, I guess I am Bush basher. Who cares about those people -- because Sadaam Hussein was bad -- it is good that so many Christians have been killed (?!).

Rick Warren
Is a member of CFR. He is apostate. His IS the gospel according to Bono.

No real Christian would be part of an organization that is working for the destruction of our national sovereignty and one world gov.

http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/news/multi/goldwatr.html

"In my view, THE TRILATERAL COMMISSION (CFR as well) REPRESENTS A SKILLFUL, COORDINATED EFFORT TO SEIZE CONTROL AND CONSOLIDATE THE FOUR CENTERS OF POWER - POLITICAL, MONETARY, INTELLECTUAL AND ECCLESIASTICAL. Barry Goldwater


I guess Rick is planning to be a leader in the new world religion. He is evil.


Proud Lib-Is your argument not with God?

Proud Lib: “Fundamentalist Christianity is antigay…”


This is a misrepresentation of the truth. To set the record straight, first the derogatory use of the word “fundamentalist” needs to be addressed.


Would you want your child taught "new math", or the fundamentals? The fundamentals of reading, or the “new” method that has created generations of children who can’t read?


If you're having a house built, and it's your money on the line, do you want an architect grounded in the fundamentals of architecture, or do you just want somebody to “wing it”?


If you own a mutual fund, do you want a manager who is grounded in the fundamentals of finance, or are you going to trust your hard-earned cash to some guy who has no experience but stayed at a Holiday Inn last night?


“Fundamentalist” is not a bad word, it’s a GOOD word. Most people would choose a “fundamentalist” over any other alternative when it comes to just about anything that’s really important to them…

…and I can think of nothing more important than one's soul…


“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36, KJV)



The inspired Word of God teaches quite plainly that homosexual conduct is sin, and it is a kind of sin that can quickly become habitual, making repentance difficult.

It is sin which separates us from God. It is because of mans’ sin that the Son of God needed to be nailed to a cross and suffer an agonizing death; we ought not to take it lightly.

True “Fundamentalist Christianity” is simply the adherence to and practice of the Word of God, just as it is written, making sure that any practice or belief can be reconciled and harmonized with all of God’s Word on a given subject.

Homosexual conduct is sin. Not according to “fundamentalist Christians”, but according to the plain Word of God.

If you claim otherwise, then truthfully, is your argument not with God?

Scott
Excellent post.

My compliments!

Scott
Your posts are dead on right. It isn't surprising (though it is sad) that someone like PL would call himself a 'Christian' while at the very same time rejecting the simplest thing Scripture teaches: the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ. It's easy to think oneself 'good' so long as one doesn't have to give up a thoroughly ingrained habit/lifestyle. Yet his mistake is a common one that if not repented of by means of the Holy Spirit's work, will lead him straight to the pits of Hell. How sad.

Holy Saturday-a time of both solemn reflection and eager anticipation. Proud Lib I hope you take Scott's words to heart. Easter is for you, too.





Proud Lib - Correction

In post #58 (2:11am) I wrote: "But God decides what is moral and what is not, and God says you're wrong."


Upon re-reading my earlier post, I would like to clarify my words. I do not speak for God, neither do I presume to. I ought to have said that "God's Word says you're wrong", as I did elsewhere.

God speaks for Himself, by His Word. I have no authority to speak for God, and I wasn't meaning to, but I can see how my choice of words might come across as if I was. There is an important distinction between saying "God's Word says", a claim which can easily be substantiated with book, chapter and verse, and saying "God says", as though I was speaking for Him, which is not in any way my place to do. I would like to take this opportunity to admit my error, and I apologize. I will try to be more careful with my choice of words.


Warren the Wobbler
As someone brought up in the Protestant religion I've always thought many Protestant churches went over to the dark side with their acceptance of abortion. Rev. Warren is only the latest evangelist to compromise with modernity, immediately rendering his message meaningless.

The Catholic Church holds steady in the center of the line while the flanks held by the Protestant churches slowly crumble. Is there a crack in the center as Notre Dame, a Roman Catholic University, celebrates the most notorious supporter of abortion and even the death of babies who were not supposed to be born?

Western civilization is crumbling from the onslaught of paganism as Christians forget who they are and where they came from. The pillars of that magnificent institution are shivering from the blows of the pagans, the sexual deviates, and nonbelievers.

Once Christianity is destroyed all the demons of Hell will be unleashed on the world.

Proud Lib in CA...
Proud Lib in CA spoke of "the right to marry the person you love, as long as both people are consenting adults and not blood relatives." In so doing, Proud Lib has checkmated himself in his defense of homosexuality; for why does it matter if two same-sex people who choose to have sex with each other are blood relatives? They cannot reproduce by their sex act, so blood relationship would not matter.

The blood relationship prohibition in selecting a sex partner is meant to prevent inbreeding and weakening of the genes! The very fact that the prohibition exists, and is acknowledged by Proud Lib, is further proof that sexual unions were intended ONLY for people of opposite sexes who, by having sex, might produce a child. Thus, the term "same-sex marriage" is an oxymoron.

Oh, and Rick Warren, pick a side and take your lumps!

PC or Integrity
It seems a lot of us are making the wrong choices these days. How people who can't read a high school biology book can have so much influence on the rest of us is beyond me unless being popular and making "friends" is more important than having integrity. You can "hate the sin and love the sinner" gets the idea across but you don't have to religious, you only have to read the biology book.

Jerseyvet
Easter blessings to you!

I firmly believe we are in Satan's 'little season' when the persecution gets very intense indeed just prior to the End. But recall Christ's words to Peter: "The very gates of Hell will not prevail against it [His Church]". Therein lies our comfort-that Christ not only won the ultimate victory over sin and death but the Devil as well. In Christ we are more than conquerors-we will win in the end!

Is it all about tax exemption
As long as churches worry more about keeping their tax exemption instead of preaching what is right, we will continue to have preachers who want to talk moral but only as long as they don't offend the belief of the day. Unfortunately, with that rediculous apology Rick Warren has done as much damage as he has done good. You do not as a Christian let someone live in sin and say it is okay. Jesus always said you are forgiven go and sin no more. He never said go ahead and live in sin.

Rick Warren needs to Apologize
The analogy of ST Peter's denial before the rooster crow's thrice is valid with Warren. He additionally betrayed every Christian in America who believe that homosexuals are, as the bible states clearly, an abomination of spiratual and natural law. How much more so that a man marries another man, and a woman, a woman? Marriage is a religious act and civil unions a State act. To deny this all, Rick Warren denies the bible , Jesus, and his congregation. Time to fess up Rick and reverse the damage with some very public mea cupa's.

Rick Warren ahs exposed himself....
for what he is, or more appropriately, what he isn't. He is just another preacher who seeks to walk the PC, all embracing line to enhance his following and popularity. He does not hold fast the immutable teachings of the Christain Faith. Sad. Do not these so-called pastors understand that they are worse than athiests. People at least undestand where an athiest is coming from.
With dubious pastors like Warren those haters of Christianity use them and their acceptance of thier lifestyle as fuel for their arguments.

Great Job Sandy!
Mega dittos to you for your knowledge of the bible AND to be able to sit through a Larry King interview and not lapse into a coma is commendable.

Some questions
To those who say homosexuality is a grave sin: If that's true, why didn't it make it into the top 10, along with coveting your neighbor's ox?

To those who say that marriage has been between a man and a woman for millenia: Didn't Solomon supposedly have a 700 wives and 300 concubines,and weren't Moses and many other prophets also polygamists?

To those who complain that Christians are disappearing in Iraq: There's no evidence that Christians are being killed there, but hundreds of murders of gay men have been documented. When gay-bashing murders happen anywhere, including here the U.S., aren't all anti-gay religions partly to blame for creating the climate of hate that seems to encourage this?

For those who say gay marriage will never happen: Have you read the news? It's now the law in seven developed countries and four U.S. states. Gay equality is today's civil-rights battle, and I think Rick Warren is softening because he just doesn't want to buck the inevitable. Nobody wants historians to put them in the same category as George Wallace blocking the schoolhouse door.

To those who supported California's Prop 8: How many starving people could have been saved with the money Chritians spent promoting a hateful ballot initiative?

A Christians Viewpoint
Well, Rick Warren seems to have disqualified himself from being the next Billy Graham and "leader" of the nations Christians hasn't he? Had I been one of his congregants before the interview, I certainly wouldn't be one afterward...

Jack David said:
"If Rick Warren made a mistake, he knows it and he knows he's been forgiven.

"He's a great man, a great Christian, and a great human being.

"I'll never forget his moving prayer at the inauguration of Barack Obama."

Anyone can speak eloquently and passionately with great charismatic appeal, yet be nothing but a LIAR.

Witness what Obama said and did to be elected POTUS.

Now he reneging on almost all his promises.

Is he any better than Bush I? Bush II? Clinton?

YES, HE IS! HE'S A MUCH BETTER LIAR!!

Tell me I'm wrong.

Some Answers
You need to read the old testament. God created man and woman for a reason. There are Christians dying in Iraq. Civilrights era was about racial equality under the law, not what their personal perversions were. How many states, when put to the voters turned away "gay marriage"..hmm? For those who were against Prop.8, where is your tolerance? Or do I have free speech as long as it agrees with your beliefs that you want to force the majority to accept?

Joel-De Oppresso Liber
"This woman slanders a man that she knows not! Peter was one of the greatest men to walk this earth, one of the greatest disciples of Christ to ever walk in the path of his Master."

I don't think this was her intent at tall. What Christian would slander Peter? Aren't we all Peter, fallen way short and been redeemed? It is through the redemption process, the awareness we have betrayed Christ with our sin and been forgiven that we can then be like disciples? I believe Sandy Rios is using this analogy appropriately as it relates to Warren. If Warren repents and faces his denial of Christ than God can use him to spread Truth, but not until. Look at Paul - he murdered Christians and later died for Christ.

Star Struck
Rick Warren like so many others before him has become star struck and a savior to himself.Proof positive that power goes to the head of those with it.

What Would You Expect...
from a "Christian" leader who hangs out with pro-abortionists--it's murder, really, nothing less--like Barack Obama? Recanting on Prop 8 is a small step from his previous point of faith bankrupcy. Rick Warren does not lead a purpose-driven life; he leads a fame- and power-seeking life. Warren is a political whore. He should be rejected soundly and broadly by all true Christians as a pretender to Christian leadership so that he does not become an increasingly powerful tool of the Left.


denial
Mark 8:37-38
37Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

I say he DID deny Christ.

The Good Shepherd
John 10:11-13
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

The words of Jesus who did not flee in the face of persecution. What will you do?

the fruit indicator
Matthew 7:14-16
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Peter
I understand your anguish. Most women and men just hate the folding Peter.

It is getting so that there is hardly anyone you are allowed to hate and oppress any more. Fortunately druggies are still on the list. For a while.

Perhaps we could get back to the old time religion and go after comic books and rock 'n roll. What we need is a revival of the true spirit of Christianity that was prevalent in America in the 50s.

Or Christians could do what the First Christian did. Not place your faith in Government.

Sin is Not based on Opinion
To Mike you think that sin is based on what people think. It has been totally based on God the father, his Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We do not get to choose what sin is it is stated in God's word and it is black and white not what seems good today. Homosexuality is a sin in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Just as living with a woman outside of marriage is a sin. Just because society changes its opinions does not mean that God decides to make ameendments. To be a Christian and not want all to be in heaven is hypocritical. So I will go by what God says is sin not man's opinion.

False Prophet
Rick Warren is a false prophet and cares nothing for the word of God. These so-called pastors that try to pacify the world will be judged harshly come judgement day.
Pastor John Hagee has been very outspoken against the Roman Catholic institution until the presidential campaign when Hagee declared his support for John McCain, who rejected Hagee's support, and it brought the wrath of the Roman church and threatened to destroy his very successful ministry. Hagee folded just like Warren did.
Where will we find a pastor who will stand for truth, no matter the consequences?

Did Not See This Larry King Show
I quit watching this guy when he had Osteen on and Joel told the nation wide audience that he didn't exactly believe that Christ was the only way. Of course it worked out for ole Joel and he keeps up his lukewarm brand of new age Christianity and gains followers each day. As far as the "leaders" of the Christian church I give them this challenge-Be a moral compass, not a gyroscope that starts to wobble once everything (following, contributions, book contracts)starts to slow down. We are losing the hearts of the uncommitted to the muslims because the US has be morals of an alley cat. I'll apologize in advance to any alley cat reading this.

cockatrices eggs
Isaiah 59-5 speaks of cockatrices and cockatrices eggs..According to common belief the glance from a cockatrice is deadly... More and more Obama is looking like a cockatrice...It seems when one has contact with Obama they start to die spiritual as evidenced by Rick warren and others..
As for his speech in France meant to cause the betrayal of Christ it only proves his purpose is to woo men away from Christ and follow the world system which is Islam and the allah beast.
What he really said is we must forsake the moral doctrines of Jesus and embrace the new which will ultimately be the new gospel koran.. get ready for it.. It is coming...This is the last temptation of the world prophecied in Revelation 3- 9, 10...

Easter
Joe, could you supply the references for the debunking of the fact that "easter" not a pagan influenced holiday? Thank you. As of now I agree with Uber.

Rick Warren
"By your fruits you are known." (paraphrased)

As a practicing born-again Christian I am wary of the mega pastors who seem to want to be known as great. I'll take the humble servants anytime over them. Billy Graham is one of those humble servants. Rick Warren, in my opinion, is not.

Aging boomers...
In America wake up every morning and look in the mirror to see mortality in all its glory and emptiness. The party is almost over and they know it. They have moved from fad to fad since the 60’s in search of personal peace. They have always sought redemption for the guilt and restlessness they carry. The drugs and promiscuity of their youth has long since worn off as has the money and ambition they had during the 70’s and 80’s. The religion of their youth and that of their parents and grandparents gave way to temporary excursions into Transcendental Mediation, Buddhism, Bio-feedback, disco, Bruce Springsteen and everything Hollywood.

As the failed marriages, abortions, affairs, substance abuse, part time parenting gave way to a mound of personal wreckage, the restlessness grew. So new cures we concocted and marketed. These cures arrived in the form of therapy, Prozac, weekend spiritual retreats, spa days, weight loss, gym memberships and yoga. All designed to change their lives, make them feel better about themselves and most importantly, to avoid the ‘mortal sins’ of judgment and hypocrisy. Their souls were also salved within the religions of liberal theocracy, radical environmentalism and civil rights. They were down with cause. Right? They were changing the world. Surely this would relieve the emptiness and move the clock back.

Cont.........

Pt. II
Enter Rick Warren and countless others, all of them inviting an easier, softer way. “Follow my Purpose Driven Program for 30 days” they say. Like another grapefruit diet. But like the diet book says, “I can have 3 helpings of French fries every other day and it won’t matter, after all I ate nothing but grapefruit yesterday.”

Now, they are faced with a few inconvenient truths their “Christian Lite” fails to address. As it has for years, the latest fad that allows them to pick and choose and remain guilt free has hit a bump in the road. Today those bumps are called gay marriage and abortion. How they handle these will determine what bumps come tomorrow.

Where do they go from here?

Eugene
BRAVO!

I am keeping your posts!

Pastor Warren
I read his book a Purpose Driven Life and it changed mine. I have no doubt that Pastor Warren is a true man of God. I heard him on Hannity and Colms one night in a debate with Allan Colms. Colms asked him about getting to Heaven. Rick said "the bible is clear the path to heaven in through Jesus Christ" (saying this to a Jewish man)now does that sound like a man who is willing to cave to be liked.

I do not have any personal knowledge of the Larry King incident, so I will take Sandy Rios (A woman I don't know) at her word that it happened. The bottom line is we all make mistakes. If it is true I too call on Pastor Warren to apologize to God not me.

Theodore
The Larry King incident has been reported by AP, and Yahoo news. I think you can read the full news story at Fox Nation.

Oddly enough, when I first read the story Peter came to mind, just like Ms. Rios.

Perhaps Pastor Warren can now show us what redemption is. I still think he is a good man but I must admit I am more than a little wary of these mega churches. I will not throw out the baby with bathwater, but glean what I can and move on. One cannot serve two masters and I think Warren is about to find out.

Regardless he is human, and replete with human flaws...just like the rest of us.

Only God
I don't know what's in the heart of Pastor Warren. That is for God. The bible says that Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness and promised him fame and power if he would only bow down to him. He tempts many men of God in similar ways, and some are seduced by it.

I believe that Rick Warren is a man of God. In his position, he faces many temptations. Sometimes he fails. The wonderful thing about faith is the opportunity to repent and be forgiven. We have a duty as Christians to address the sin, provide an opportunity to pray and ask for forgiveness, and see where God leads him.

My concern for Pastor Warren is the path he's walking leads me to believe that he's walking away from God and into the secular world. I've been concerned about this since the "Saddleback" debates, when he asked the candidates "political" questions versus questions of faith.

Politics and political issues change. Depth of faith determine whether men will respond with integrity, morality, and faith in God. Pastor Warren's questions indicated that he had forgotten this fundamental principle and was "walking with the world" instead of "walking with God".

Mr Warren needs our prayers, not our condemnation.

Mega Churches
are just that. "Mega" being too large for anyone to sense any real faith. They are based on "feel good" emotions. Anyone who has walked through the valley of death knows that faith has nothing to do with emotions. That statement should be displayed on the big screen.

Saddleback Sunday Show
Do people go to Saddleback for the message or the messenger? I'll bet Rick stays away from marriage sermons for awhile and the man-woman thingy with more "Love your neighbor and stop global warming" sermons. Look for more touchy feely hand swaying and even better guitar music...Wow!! The status gauge just jumped a notch at the Saddleback Sunday Show.

Michael in WA.

Pastor Rick Warren needs to do exactly what Sandy Rios said for him to do.
Her advise is scriptual based.
I believe that Rick Warren is very mixed up
with his feel good philosophy.
He would do the world and CA a big heartfelt service if he would stick to the WORD of GOD.


duplicity
Sandy, come on! You spend most of the article comparing Pastor Warren's King interview to Peter denying Christ and then you declare that
you are not comparing Warren to Peter denying Christ. You sound like a politican. Pastor Warren did not deny Christ and he did not condone sin. He was not an active supporter of the political campaign for Yes on 8. Do you have any evidence of the charge that he "apoligized" to anyone for his position on 8?
Have you read the apology communications? He apologized only for confusion over an analogy
not his support of Prop 8. Speak the truth in love. Don't pray to God to assist you in trashing His servants.

The phony
Although I'm an atheist and couldn't care less what Rick Warren says or thinks, I saw through this self-serving phony from his first foray onto the national stage. He's the classic example of a guy who came along to do good and did very well. He's had plenty of examples to follow over the years of "National Pastors" we've been subjected to.

It's high time we grow up and get over religion.

Russell
FINALLY someone else is saying something I've been saying for years. The modern church has
exchanged the Master for another master, IRS and thus allowed itself to be muzzled. They because of the tax exemption were the first to practice political correctness.
The modern church (I know there are exceptions
who boldly proclaim the truth) is a far cry from the church that prepared the colonials for the Revolution and the creation of our Republic
formed from bible. Those Pastors who preached
against the tryanny of the British rule often
had their Continental Army uniforms on under their robes, and would preach, grab their musket and lead the men out to war. The Brits called them 'The Black Brigade', so much was their influence on the public. The motto of the Revolution was "No KING BUT KING JESUS".
They would have spit in the eye of anyone suggesting a tax exemption that would deny them their right to preach Truth to Power. We need
these men today, who are unafraid of the IRS,Rick Warren hasn't half their courage and
determination. He told the world Jan 20th
that Obama (the baby killer) is "a good man".
No wonder we have so much corruption, abortion
etc. when cowardly preachers won't tell the Truth. He's no BILLY GRAHAM, can't touch that
Godly man, no matter how he tries.

satan's palyground
its the weekend before Easter and this board is rife with people who claim to be Christ followers trashing one of Christ's servants.
Pastor Rick never condones any sin and never
apologized for the true word of God. Sandy has whipped up a frenzy of attack based on twisted and unfounded personal attacks. will you here who use your words to attack Pastor Warren be singing God's praises tomorrow in church?
can anyone here distinguish between the sin and the sinner? God hates sin but he loves the sinner.

What a pathetic jerk
Rick Warren is such a pathetic jerk. He's in this racket of his for the money and the attention he gets in the media. Any real Christian knows what he or she should think about gays, and knows what God wants done about them as well. Hating gays is part and parcel of Biblical Christianity, and I do respect conservatives who are willing to say so in public. This view makes such conservatives my enemy, but it's important in war to know your enemy. People like Warren are traitors to their own cause, and I hope you religious conservatives drop this guy like the proverbial bad habit.

sandy where are you???
how long will you let this fire of deception burn? Pastor Warren has never denied Christ or the biblical view of marriage. He never apologized to anyone for supporting Christian marriage. dont be used by satan.

Gestell
- 2:25 PM EST
What a pathetic jerk
======================
You are the one pathetic

Confused
I get Rick Warren confused with Dr. Phil. Who's the one that got his start on Oprah?

Sandy writes:
Even if others do, I will never deny you,” declared the Apostle Peter
=======================
Peter said that after Jesus said this to them all first:
Matthew 26:
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night:

But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee


Imagine this, Peter had been chosen by the Lord to hold the Keys to the Kingdom of God, and evidently Peter felt important.

Important enough to rebuke the Master as he could not imagine himself being offended, he never dreamed where Jesus was going, to be mocked and scorned, spit on, to his own death.



Jesus knew no man can handle that, its extremely offensive to all men to be mocked, spit on and scorned, and fear death.

So Jesus told Peter this:

34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

This man, Rick Warren is like all men who have not yet truly been converted, even if he declares his faith in Jesus Christ like Peter had before he had received the power to face the offense's Jesus passed through from death to life.

Rick Warren needs what Peter got on the Day of Pentecost, the filling of the Holy Ghost.

Otherwise, he will never be able to follow Jesus Christ and stand as a man in the face of sinners.

The offense of the Cross can only be faced by the real Christians, saints.
Not a man who thinks its about him and his image

The COMMISSION on FOREIGN RELATIONS
THE PREACHERMAN IS ALSO A MEMBER OF THIS SUBVERSIVE OUTFIT!!!

gestell
If calling your own kind to fess up to being a hypocrite is what you are suggesting then sweetie you better get to work !!

You liberals are such incredible hypocrites and cowards that you will be chastising your kind from now until next decade !!!!

And as much as I think Warren is a fraud save jerk and much harsher words for cowards like obama, his gross wife, pelosi, reid,biden, kennedy ( take your pick from that welfare crowd) on and on.

Mark in CA
Thanks for being today's poster child of religous ignorance and intolerance.



And sorry, we have no lovely parting gifts for you for playing................

Following Jesus Christ
There is a cost

Matthew 8:
18 Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.

19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.

20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

How far will any of us follow Jesus Christ and pay what he paid.

Its going to take everything in us to follow the Lord, yes all of us, me included.

I see so many today honoring the Lord, by mouth, me too, but I fear God enough to pray I can be found worthy.
As Paul said:

Php 3:10 -
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;...


This is what it takes to really follow Jesus Christ.

Not seek the honor of men, which is following the world

Money, Women, and Popularity,......
are often the big three temptations for ministers.

Perhaps success and abundance are the more difficult things to OVERCOME in the Christian walk......look at King Solomon.
And Hosquatch's quote in post 70 hits a note.
"Oh, and Rick Warren, pick a side and take your lumps!"

Theodore in NY
You bring up the Warren/Combs exchange. I watched that. Warren was anything except BOLD. He told Combs, "to try Jesus for 30 days...money back guaranteed". Huh? One does not come to the cross for 30 days and take it or leave it money back guaranteed. He is always vague and wordy when attempting to share the gospel. Hannity asked him point blank, "how does someone get to heaven?", and Warren failed to answer the question. He starts good normally, but then he just rambles on and on, no longer on subject. He did it again last night on Hugh Hewitt's radio show. Hugh asked him directly, "what Good Friday means, why is it significant?" Talk about another softball that any Pastor would love to have asked .... and then... Rick Warren does not share that Jesus bloody death on the cross satisfied the Holy Wrath of God against sin and rebellion. Nope. As usual Warren went adrift into his PEACE plan. Like Obama, Warren always sounds good. Unfortunately like Obama, Warren ever answers the question with specifics. The big difference is that Warrens failed answers have eternal consequences, Obama (as rev. Wright said)"is just a politician".

hours tick by and
this unfounded, unfair and untrue attack is allowed to fester in the public view. Pastor Warren never denied Christ and it is the ultimate insult and slander against a pastor to so imply. Why is the Peter analogy in the piece except to accuse Pastor Warren.
Pastor Warren never apologized to anyone for supporting the biblical view of marriage.

Talent Scout says,
"Rick Warren needs what Peter got on the Day of Pentecost, the filling of the Holy Ghost."

Perhaps you are right. Many have some of the Spirit on them, around them, and with them, but we need to be born fully of God's Spirit.

Ms. Rios,
There are PLENTY of things in the Bible that people no longer believe.

The Bible explains the proper way to stone your wife to death when she is caught in adultery.

We no longer believe in stoning adulterers to death.

The Bible says it's an abomoination to eat shellfish or pork or mix fabrics or have gay sex.

We no longer believe this.

The Bible does not denounce all the slavery that the major biblical characters believe in.

We believe otherwise.

I could go on and on and on about what parts of the Bible people now - in a more enlightened age - believe to be immoral or unimportant.

Rick Warren and his failure
By Christ we are taught to love the sinner yet hate the sin.
Homosexuality and Lesbianism is sinful as well as fornication and all the other sins listed in the Commandments of God.
If Mr. Warren is trying to show love and compassion toward the sinners that is one thing, but to attempt anything other than a condemnation of the sins of the Gay movemnent is wrong and he needs to chastised for it.
No other belief can be had than that the Gay/ Lesbian movement is wrong and they are sinners as well as those of us who do not follow the commands of God.

Here's a guy, Josh
Who has never read the Bible in his life, but has come to teach it.

Clueless as he is

Josh says,
"I could go on and on and on about what parts of the Bible people now - in a more enlightened age - believe to be immoral or unimportant. "

Well, go on and on.....perhaps you will get yourself tangled up even more between law and grace.

Warren is siding with the trend...
...away from moral distinctions based on who we are.

Many of the features of traditional marriage reflect the outmoded subordinate status of women as property of their fathers or their husbands. The bride alone is admonished to 'honor and obey' her husband. The groom alone asks the father for her daughter's hand, not the other way around. Only the bride’s father ‘gives the bride away’, never the groom’s father. What else would a father be 'giving away' but his property?

These anachronistic features of traditional marriage are melting away as we increasingly recognize that marriage partners co-equal. If the traditions of male dominance in marriage can be set aside in deference to the equal status of the partners, so also can we set traditions aside in deference to the equality of the partner’s gender.

Traditions change slowly, but they do evolve and the clear trend, which Rick Warren recognizes, is toward acceptance and normalization of gay and lesbian marriage.

here's his church's response:
Statement from Saddleback Church on Warren's CNN Appearance
CBNNews.com
April 9, 2009

CBNNews.com - Spokeswoman Kristin Cole released the following statement to CBN News in response to Pastor Rick Warren's comments, Tuesday, on CNN's Larry King Live:
Thank you for your inquiry regarding Rick Warren's April 6 appearance on CNN "Larry King Live." Several comments he made during that interview have caused confusion which I would like to clarify on his behalf as media representative for Saddleback Church.
Throughout his pastoral ministry spanning nearly 30 years, Dr. Warren has remained committed to the biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, for life -- a position held by most fellow Evangelical pastors. He has further stressed that for 5,000 years, EVERY culture and EVERY religion has maintained this worldview.
When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California's Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues. Because he's a pastor, not an activist, in response to inquiries from church members, he issued an email and video message to his congregation days before the election confirming where he and Saddleback Church stood on this issue.
During the King interview, Dr. Warren also referenced a letter of apology that he sent to gay leaders whom he knew personally. However, that mea culpa was not with respect to his statements or position on Proposition 8 nor the biblical worldview on marriage. Rather, he apologized for his comments in an earlier Beliefnet interview expressing his concern about expanding or redefining the definition of marriage beyond a husband-wife relationship, during which he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia.



God is the same yesterday, today & forev
Rick Warren is not God and I thank God he isn't. Jesus was mocked, beaten and crucified on Calvary. Warren (like Peter) is mocking Jesus. There is no explaining away sin "sin is sin". It has been and always will be unpopular. If Rick Warren wants to mock Jesus and my beliefs so be it, I don't have to listen to him, buy any more of his books or watch him on Larry King. I lost all respect for him on January 20, 2009

To Last One Standing:
Anti-Gay BIGOTRY?? My God, how did you arrive at THAT conclusion??
How bigoted is it to profess to love this land--then not only refuse to obey it's laws; but actually take law-abiding citizens to task (OFTEN PHYSICALLY) for expressing their opinions? (and then--just keep "beating that dead horse" of wanting Proposition 8 to go YOUR way?? IT DIDN'T go your way--TWICE the issue was resolved AGAINST your views. THAT means--in THIS Country--that you may not like it, but it's the law; and you need to obey. Lobbying PEACEFULLY for change LATER isn't out of order, but what they are STILL doing in CA is simply morally WRONG. If you don't want to obey the laws voted in by the majority of the people--MOVE...maybe Australia would take you??

Select a word


Words have meaning, and different words describe items or actions that are similar, but different.

They have already screwed up the usage of words like Qu*er and Gay, now go find your own word for two homosexuals who are committed to each other, love each other, and have performed a ceremony to advertise that union.

For example the word “Gay” is no longer useful in polite conversation between normal people, by that I mean people who do not have a certain birth defect.

That new word would also apply to any two or more people of whatever sex or relationship, who wish to live together, or at least be in constant association with each other, including the right to control healthcare, and inherit goods when death occurs, and other such things.

The dictionary says the following, so get your own words, and leave these alone.

Marriage: the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife

Husband: a man joined in marriage to a woman

Wife: a woman joined in marriage to a man

If two men say they are married to each other, do they have a marriage? Answer No.

Two families pay money each month to live in a house, is it the same? No, one pays rent, the other pays a mortgage.

Two wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a bike, the other a motorcycle.

Two multi-wheeled vehicles are going down the street, are they the same? No, one is a car, the other is a truck.

If a man and a woman are married to each other, do you have a marriage? Yes, of course.

To Josh in CA
Your claims we "no longer believe" many things in the Bible only point out your ignorance.
God is the same now, yesterday--and tomorrow. HIS Commandments are to be obeyed FOREVER. He did NOT make it a commandment to stone the wife caught in adultry--in fact, she was forgiven, because we have all fallen short.
About Gays, however--make no mistake: he was VERY clear; and it is an "abomination". Go look up the actual definition of that word, before you start spouting what "we" believe. If YOU believe that, I'd humbly suggest that you had better see the light of Christ very quickly, and repent all your erroneous thinking...Love the sinner, HATE the sin...

Josh...We don't stone adulterers?
Tell that to Elliot Spitzer or better yet, ask a divorce lawyer.

They've made more than just a few people wish they were dead.

If they would have had divorce lawyers back then they wouldn't have needed the stones.

Gene....Thank you!!
For so clearly pointing out what myself and others have been trying to make clear.

"Traditions change slowly, but they do evolve and the clear trend, which Rick Warren recognizes, is toward acceptance and normalization of gay and lesbian marriage."

God doesn't need focus groups. His word is clear on gay marriage.

Warren on the other hand..........

Re: Kuddos!!!!
Thank you so much for the truth of this guy and what he really stands for, this guy wants to sell books and he is a egg noodle when it comes to issues that are clearly in the Bible, and are no no's to christians!!! Yes, he did denie the truth three times!!???

uh-oh....
so the chubby little chump went on National TV and basically stabbed those who have followed him right in the back!.. now let's ask ourselves why? Will this increase book sales?---undeniably NOT. Will the collection plates shine brighter with the coin of the realm?...quite doubtful. So why the sudden and surprise recant? Could The Rev. with the Beelzebub hairs on his chinny-chin-chin get OUTED himself?! 10-to-1 somebody's got pics of him doing something naughty.....Happy Easter everybody despite one more betryal

Warren is a fruad!
So the CFR member, UN loving, internationalist in pink undies is finally showing his true colors? AFter so many pointed out to the chrruches that he is the pied piper of the NWO leadning xians into the promised land of neo-fascism.

The purpose of the purpose driven church is to ruin the church and make it fully socialist.

Will you wake up now church? I doubt it, your as innocent as snakes and as wise as doves.

Rick should respect civil rights...
I am proud of him for realising DOMA is wrong and understanding that theres no excuse for discrimination!

We (GOP) coulda won the election if not for the pandering to Christian conservatives!

Abortion and GLBT rights are wedge issues.

If the churches stayed out of Americans bedrooms,and the GOP focused on winning the war on terror (I mean islam) we'd be so much better off.

Cheers to you Rick Warren;-

If the sodomites
Would keep their disgusting sexual perversions in their bedroom and out of the streets, everyone could have some peace

Jesus is Risen - He is Alive

Hallelujah, "He is risen!"
Jesus is gone up on high!
Burst the bars of death asunder;
Angels shout, and men reply:
He is risen, He is risen,
Living now, no more to die.

Hallelujah He is risen!
Our exalted Head to be;
Sends the witness of the Spirit
That our Advocate is He:
He is risen, He is risen,
Justified in Him are we.

Hallelujah, He is risen!
Death for all has lost his sting;
Christ, Himself the Resurrection,
From the grave "His own" will bring:
He is risen, He is risen,
Living Lord and coming King.

oh Death Where Is Thy Sting,
grave, Where's Thy Victory,
in Three Days, The Stone Rolled Away.
stone Rolled Away,
an Empty Grave Proves What I Say,
he Lives Today.


Purposeless Drivel Laugh
I read about 6 chapters of Warren's book and immediately renamed it the Purposeless Drivel Laugh.
His book is all about us, not about God, despite his disclaimer in the first chapter that "It's not about you!" It's narcissistic Christianity to the max, not about following Jesus who said "go and sin no more."
If Warren loved homosexuals he would tell them to get out of the life and don't look back as many of them do.

Rick Warren
Are we surprised at that Mr. Warren has backtracked?
He is typical of the evangelical self ordained preacher (John Hagee, Joel Osteen etc) who have invented their own version of Christianity to feed their pocket books and their vanity. They always pick and choose what they want to believe (cafeteria Christians)., and leave out the things they don't understand or is inconvenient. These sects have come and gone over the centuries and have caused many to lose their salvation. I suggest to them and their followers to read the some of the writings of the early church fathers. (Clement of Rome, Mathetes, Polycarp, Ignatius, Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.) just to name a few, and they will see their folly.


Gary
Gruene, Tx.

Warren
I hope the people of his "church" were watching Larry King that night and will wake up. He is not an example to follow and should not be pastor of any Christian church. He's a coward.

Get the big picture people
Beware of the proselytizer because they are false. For those here who judge so high and mighty, maybe it is you who don't believe in G-d. You seem so easy to reinterpret what Jesus said to fit your opinion. G-d said "don't look left, don't look right. This means follow the teachings and improve yourself. It doesn't mean judge, judge and judge. Only G-d will judge. Look within yourself and be better and pray for others to be more ethical. But just shut the heck up. Acknowledge as much as you criticize. Better yet acknowledge more than you criticize. What Rick Warren said was the gay issue wasn't a priority for him, saving thousands of homeless kids was. When you can make that kind of contribution then maybe you have the right to judge.

HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE
my God is mighty to save and He can wipe out the sin on this board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ

I bet...
Nobody here even remembers Prop. 4 in CA. It was on the same ballot right above Prop. 8.

Apparently there was no publicity, nor investment, not at all the millions equivalent to what was spent to pass Prop. 8.
All the pro Prop. 8 websites don't even mention it.

Yet, abortion and marriage equality are conflated into the same arguments.

Prop. 4 failed.

And as our economy suffers a meltdown from usury. Which has and usually does result in domestic problems in families, you can point to your proudest moment as passing Prop. 8 by a slim majority as abortions for minors and marriage difficulties still prevail.

And yet, the Constitutional amendment that maintains marriage recognized between a man and a woman can do nothing to prevent such woes. Spite being measured in about a 100 million dollars that saved nothing.

Such a coc* up of Biblical proportions.




Good Article Ms. Rios...
Not only are you stunningly beautiful, but you have some keen spiritual insight to call it like it is....Warren is a sellout to his principles....pure and simple....there can be NO compromise with evil.....

This situation reminds me of Aragorn's remarks during the attack on Helms Deep..."show no mercy, for you shall recieve none"..

NO compromise with any issue that is moral wickedness...for it only gathers strength if you do.

Shame on you, Sandy Rios.
You owe Rick Warren an apology as well as Townhall readers.

I listened to the interview several times to make sure I heard all the details correctly.

You falsely accused him of separating himself from traditionl marriage. In fact, at least 4 times, he defined marriage as one man and one woman. He urged his congregation to vote yes on Proposition 8 the weekend before the elections. He said that he was not an activist for Proposition 8, therefore, he did not campaign for it. That makes sense since he's a pastor to some 50,000 members.

He apologized to his gay friends and leaders for the misunderstanding of what he wrote in a church newsletter. He was misunderstood about his statement about gay marriage and incest and pedophiles.He did not intend to link them together.

He was not criticized by his gay friends, but by gays whom do not know him.

He should be supported for reaching out to gays. Most people find homosexual behavior to be repulsive, but these people need God's grace just like everyone else.

His church is growing tremendously because she is meeting people's needs especially in today's
challenging economy. He baptized 800 people in one service, which took 5 hours to complete.

He gives away 90% of his income.

I am not a Rick Warren apologist--I don't have any of his books, but it's bad enough to have liberals twist, misquote, and lie about Christian leaders and Christianity, now here's a doer who gets stab in the back by a fellow believer.

You owe us all an apology.

Re: Theology for Biblically Challenged
"It is ironic that Sandy would have you worry about keeping marriage between a man and a women. Where does it say that in the bible?"

Genesis 2:18-25
"Then the LORD God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [a]suitable for him.' Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.' For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."

Matthew 19:4-6

"And He answered and said, 'have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate'."

Easter fundamentally not Christian
"The holiday of Easter is tied to the Judaic holiday of Passover. The Passover lamb was a type pointing to the Lamb of God "who takes away the sin of the world." It has nothing to do with the sumerian godess ishtar. The idea that the word "Easter" is a corruption of "ishtar" has been debunked."

Your right Joe that easter has nothing to do with ishtar. It does in fact have to do with the Germanic goddess Ôstarâ. And you worship here when you do all that easter bunny egg hunting chocolate stuff.

As an atheist and enjoying my Easter chocolate.

Did you know Joe that the Ester is actually the name of the month equivalent to April in the Germanic calender? As is Yule the name of the month equivalent to December.

In fact month means moon. And the Germanic calender was divided into 12 moon cycles and every four years they had a leap month.



John Acton


"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."

The point of this is to explain why a man shall leave his father and have sex with his wife. In the old English it says "cleave." i .e. to hold on to, and become one flesh.... that is sex.

I doesn't say anything here about marriage. It says wife, but that does not mean marriage in this context, it mean sexual partnership. Marriage is not sexual partnership. Marriage is a commitment of fidelity until death with or with out sex.

Are you saying the bible says that same sex couples are not allowed to commit themselves to such a fidelity? If so were?

Form a Biblical perspective marriage has been a polygamous afair with one husband having many wives. Roman pagans introduced the idea of monogamy, and Christianity picked it up at it has many other pagan customs.
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