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Saturday, January 12, 2008
Sandy  Froman :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gun Vote Could Decide Michigan GOP Primary
by Sandy Froman
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


After Governor Huckabee’s win in Iowa, Senator McCain’s win in New Hampshire, and Governor Romney’s performance thus far, all three have a chance to win the Michigan GOP primary. And the gun vote in Michigan could pick the winner.

Michigan’s primary has a host of issues. Aside from general Republican issues like national security and the military, Michigan’s particular circumstances motivate its Republicans to base their vote on several local issues. For example, the economy is an issue because of high unemployment and loss of manufacturing jobs.

One point not often discussed is that Michigan has a strong and robust gun culture. And Michigan’s gun owners—many of them NRA members—vote their Second Amendment rights. If one candidate could corner the Michigan gun vote, that candidate could take the January 15 primary.

Michigan is a swing state. Though it has trended Democrat in recent elections, Rs and Ds are usually close in the final vote tallies, and both parties fight for every inch of ground.

The only reason Michigan is a swing state can be summed up in one word: Detroit. The Detroit metro area is dominated by inner-city politics, with campaign focuses on crime, welfare, unemployment and education.

Consequently, once you drive out of Detroit, you’re culturally in Alabama or Indiana. The vast Michigan countryside is full of millions of largely conservative Midwestern families, with traditional values and priorities. These areas are full of Michigan Republican primary voters.

This is strong gun country. In these regions, hunting and the outdoors play a huge part in people’s lives. The folks there also prize their right to protect themselves and their families. A sizeable number of these households are NRA members and other Second Amendment supporters.

If any of the GOP candidates could make a strong play for the Michigan gun vote, it could give him the edge.

The three candidates topping the polls in Michigan all have something to run on. Mike Huckabee easily has the strongest Second Amendment record out of the three, earning top ratings and endorsements from the NRA when he was running for governor of Arkansas. Mitt Romney is an NRA member speaking in favor of gun rights, though his continued endorsement of the Clinton Gun Ban and Brady Bill on Meet the Press last month is generating criticism from many gun owners. And John McCain supported pro-gun legislation during his many years in the House and Senate, including the bill to end junk lawsuits against gun dealers, though it’s also no secret that he has crossed swords with gun-rights supporters on more than one occasion.

It’ll be interesting to see who can capture the gun vote. All three candidates have done things gun owners can applaud. While Governor Huckabee has the only perfect record, the other two would be acceptable to many gun voters.

Of course, plenty of gun owners will decide their vote on something other than the Second Amendment. Gun owners care about the same things all voters care about – national security, jobs, education, taxes, retirement, family issues.

But never underestimate how many gun owners are single-issue voters. The NRA election year slogan is “Vote Freedom First.” It was NRA members voting their gun rights that delivered West Virginia, Tennessee and Arkansas to George W. Bush in 2000. And John Kerry’s phony goose hunt in Ohio helped NRA push that state into the Bush column in 2004. For a couple million committed gun owners, the Second Amendment alone determines their choice for president.

And for many gun owners who are not single-issue, a candidate’s Second Amendment position can be the tie-breaker. If gun owners see things that they like in two or three of the candidates and aren’t sure which way to vote, many will go with the candidate they think is committed to protecting the Second Amendment.

So in a few days Michigan will weigh in on the presidential race. Gun owners of Michigan, this is your chance to speak out and be heard. Demand a nominee who will fight for your Second Amendment rights, and hold him to his word.

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About The Author

Sandy Froman is the immediate past president of the National Rifle Association of America, only the second woman and the first Jewish American to hold that office in the 136-year history of the NRA. The views expressed are her own and not that of any organization.

Be the first to read Sandy Froman's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

Well said
I, for one, am strongly animated by the gun issue. Clinton credited gun owners with Gore's defeat by Bush, too.

I'm not swayed by McCain's pro-gunism; he teamed with Lieberman on the anti-gun "loophole" bill.

Giuliani is about as anti-gun as any Dem.


vote freedom first
I'm an NRA member, and I demand a candidate who will protect my Second Amendment rights.

Vote freeom first!

Froman
Finally,a pundit who just about has Mi. pegged.Slice off the southeast corner and a CONSERVARTIVE could do well here. The RINO's,unfortunately will too,due to the Dems screwing up the works with their "Hey,look at us,we're important too" mentality. A number of the D votes will undoubtedly jump the fence,and try to pick the R candidate.

BrianR: Yup!

I don't care how one looks at it... McCain is a RINO... End of THAT discussion.

And don't think that I don't like Lieberman very much as a STATESMAN and a gentleman! I think he's one of a few (only?) we have in Congress.

It's just that except for Lieberman's courage to step up on the WOT, I disagree with his entire idiology... Yet, I have more respect for Lieberman than McCane.


Sad commentary.




Well said, Anne
.

BrianR: Thank you, kind sir!

Still looking for those sim pics... :-)


Anne, I emailed it
to you days ago.

Didn't you get it?


Maybe McCain could say . . .
He was related to Lucas McCain - the Rifleman and win the gun vote.

Why not? He's convinced people he's a Republican for years. It seems more plausible that he's a descendent of Lucas McCain - even though Lucas McCain is a fictional character.

If Conservatives allow crossovers and independents to nomiinate McCain - the only conservative option is to vote Democrat in the General Election. That way, congressional opposition can be mounted against liberal policy. If McCain and is "gang of 14" are empowered - there will be no way to stop higher taxes, amnesty, and stricter Campaign Finance restrictions.

What about Judges? Does anyone really think John McCain will appoint a judge that doesn't cause the media and the gang of 14 to swoon? We'll get killed on that too.

LOL, Crescen7!
That was great! The Rifleman! Great satire, and great points.


McCain has an 83%
rating from tha ACU, which makes him a solid B cons. on a scale from A-F.

I don't like his voting against the 2003 tax cut or his role as the gang of 14 on judicial nominees, but I'm going to guess that was partly out of animus toward Bush.

McCain is, after Giuliani, a strong fiscal cons. with a record of cutting taxes and bolstering laws and order (but not gun ownership), the best the Reps. have to offer.

I would remind people that Giuliani's gun stance from NYC is based on the Sullivan law that virtually denies private hand gun ownership throughout NY State and is much older than G.'s mayorship in the big apple.

Talk Radio
Talk Radio has weighted in against both McCain and Huck as the liberal that that they are. That takes some pressure off of Romney to run comparative ads.

MI could go to Romney or McCain and it will depend mostly on how the Dem and Indy votes go. It is not clear if they will vote in large numbers or who they will vote for.

Huck crossed a union picket line to get onto Leno so that will not help him.

BrianR: Yes, but I meant the ones of

Walker and Neva in the sim with their grandfather...





Anne: Huh?
???????????????????


I have no idea what you're talking about.

McCain hasn't voted to raise taxes, ever
I was just informed.

Romney fudged on his ability to hunt and on his own gun expertise...oh fudge...not a real lie,I suppose since he owns one gun.

My fellow Americans, let's accept our Republican nominee...in September...unless it's Gulliani...no guns and no protection of life--can a babe in utero or a comatose adult really choose life for themselves??? NO we WILL DO THAT.
We can and must choose life for them, Rudy, until they get the chance to choose for themselves.

With Guliani we deserve Hillary or worse, in my opinion. Guliani can't take care of his own house, and he's not America's mayor. America has no mayor--let's be real here.

For today let's try to find all the good stuff in each candidate NOW, and weigh that in our balanced minds...and GO HELP. SUPPORT A CANDIDATE...WITH LETTERS, MONEY, ENCOURAGEMENT. IT'S NO EASY TO BE A MOVING TARGET IN AMERICA...A PLACE WHERE WE SOMETIMES SHOOT OUR WOUNDED--LIKE AT bad aiming Christians at CHURCH. Reach out, protect, lift, pray and redirect to higher ground and a better footing.

satan comes to steal and kill and destroy people and goodness and organized efforts turning life into chaos. God is not the Author of confusion. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil...and said it's finished! Get on board, little children, get on board....GOD CAN MAKE A WAY WHERE THERE SEEMS TO BE NO WAY.


RINOs
Rudy is a grabber and McCain aint the best gun supporter in addition to his anti-conservative ways. Romney hasn’t been real good either. Huckleberry is a liberal regardless of how he would be on guns.

The only one who is consistent on guns and is a conservative is Fred.

Liberal Roots
The Republicans have fielded a weak team this time around. It’s hard to get excited about any of them. Most of them have their roots in liberal soil and when the chips are down will turn on their base like Bush has.

Gun vote
For the strongest gun rights candidate the good people of Michigan should vote for Fred!

Romney is Anti Gun!

Go look it up yourself but he made the choice to raise the gun license fee (the concept of such a thing even existing would freak out any true believe in the second amendment) from $5 to $100!

And when people complained, his response was that "you don't have to own a gun."

Mitt Romney is anti gun. No two ways about it...

Romney is Anti Gun!

Go look it up yourself but he made the choice to raise the gun license fee (the concept of such a thing even existing would freak out any true believe in the second amendment) from $5 to $100!

And when people complained, his response was that "you don't have to own a gun."

Mitt Romney is anti gun. No two ways about it...

Romney is Anti-Second Ammendment
It's a known fact that Mitt Romney opposed gun ownership throughout his entitre career as a politician in Massachusetts.

He opposed the NRA and supported the Brady bill and the banning of assault weapons.

If he claims he's for gun rights now, he's a liar.


JD
The Supreme Court has no choice. The case will be heard this term, which means the decision will come down during this term (which ends in June).

clyde
sandy froman is not a pundit- she is president of NRA

clyde
check that-previous president of NRA

clyde
check that-previous president of NRA

Mike Huckabee is more pro-2nd Amendment.
For anyone who has actually checked out where Mike Huckabee is on the issues in sted of listening to the biased campaigns of others you will see that Mike Huckabee is obviously the cannidate who takes the strongest stand on the second amendment.

Go and actually check out Mike Huckabee's stand on the issues on his offical website and see for youself what his positions are.

If you want a cannidate who is pro-second-amendment and who could possibly win MI then the answer is Mike Huckabee.

Who Really Knows Best?
A Must Read:
Saturday, January 12, 2008
Senator Santorum and Michael Gerson On John McCain (Bumped)
Posted by: Hugh Hewitt at 5:07 PM
UPDATE

http://www.townhall.com/blog

Romney Not Against NRA
Romney Supports NRA, If It is to dangerous as a Sport, or to Hunt with NRA has no use for it anyway

spiceman
That's utterly absurd. Completely ridiculous.

The Second Amendment is *not* about hunting or sporting.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to enable citizens to protect themselves and their families against any who would take their life, liberty or property, whether it's a criminal or even our own government.

It was a terrible disappointment for Romney to sign on to the Clinton gun control agenda. The Clinton Gun Ban and the Brady Bill were the worst anti-Second Amendment gun control laws in the past 40 years. There is no excuse whatsoever.

You clearly are not an NRA member.

It Starts with Freedom
Who has the clearest record that supports state and individual rights?
Who ushered through the most conservative originalist supreme court justice in recent memory?
Who stands for Federalist principles in every aspect of his political career?
Who recognizes that America's citizens, not America's politicians is it's greatest resource?

FRED THOMPSON

All the rest are RINOs who clearly think they know better than ther rest of us silly rubes from the Hinterlands.

Huckaschmuck wants to tell me where I can/cannot smoke. What's next? What I can eat? How I can make love to my wife?

Guliani tells me I can't be trusted with a gun because I live in a city.

McNanny tells me I'm a xenophobe bigot if I don't let 12 million criminals stay in my country and suck it dry.

Romney tells me I'm not allowed to believe my eyes and ears when it comes to his record.

I don't listen to Paul because he is an inconsequential troll looking for his little bridge and the billy goats that wish to cross it.

I don't need to hear Fred Thompson tell me what he believes. He has shown me through his consistent committment to Conservative Federalist priciples.

Does anyone on this site think that a politician might tell us what they think we want to hear?

If you want to protect your guns protect your freedom first. Vote for Fred Thompson and guarantee your freedom , your children's freedom and the preservation of the greatest nation the world has ever known.

Ms. Fromans' choices QUESTIONABLE
I have a lot of respect for NRA past Pres. Sandy Froman. But weather Huckabee or Romney are the 2 strongest 2ed Amd. supporters is very questionable, especially when comparing their records to those of Fred Thompson and Ron Paul. You don’t get stronger 2ed Amd. supporters than them; especially Dr. Paul, who I prefer over Thompson for his position on most other issues. Ms. Froman probably didn’t mention them because she assumes neither are viable candidates. I don’t make that assumption.....yet.

Gun Vote Could Decide Michigan GOP Prima
I'll admit that Huckabee seems strong on the 2nd Amendment but he's pretty weak on the rest of the Bill of Rights. I fear that he would also sell the 2nd amendment rights out for political gain.

Romney and McCain are sleazy political opportunists who would sell out 2nd Amendment rights if they believed that it would advance their ambitions.

Ron Paul has been with the NRA on everything except the "the bill to end junk lawsuits against gun dealers". He opposed that one on 10th Amendment grounds. His history has shown that he will fight for all of our rights to the bitter end. He will do this on principle not for political expediency. NONE of the other candidates will do this.

As a long-time NRA member (ILA and PVF), I am appalled that Ms Froman seems to be joining the neocon / establishment machine in trying to silence the MOST steadfast opponent of gun grabbing in the presidential contest.

Fred
is the only candidate who has consistently been pro-2nd Amendment AND on the right side of the key to its protection. I'm referring to to his stated preferences for Supreme Court appointments. That's where our focus should be rather than on the claims that candidates make about being pro-gun. With most of them either their 2nd Amendment positions are too vague or their records are too suspect (or both).

Bluerev
You're right about Ron Paul, but I have long since faced reality on that account.

Don't Forget McCain-Feingold!
McCain-Feingold was enacted in response to the NRA success in defeating Gore and the Democrats in 2000. This has made it more difficult for the NRA to run issue ads against gun grabbing candidates. We can't defend our 2nd Amendment rights without 1st Amendment rights. John McCain joined with the enemy to limit our 1st Amendment rights. In doing so, he helped limit our 2nd Amendment rights as well.

Why Ms Froman would say anything positive about McCain in the context of gun rights is baffling.

McCain needs to retire. While he's at it, he needs to take his toadie, Lindsey Graham of SC with him.



retchemprof
Granted, Ron Paul is not a front runner but neither is Fred.

The reality that we need to face is that we need someone who is uncompromising regarding our civil liberties. Otherwise, the NRA will either die or become a mere gun club for the elite.

Ron Paul 2008!

too many RINOs
Mike Huckabee is an "old-time" Democrat. While Huckabee has no problem with "self-defense", he's also strong in support of early 1900s socialism in general - therefore he's a RINO.

Mitt Romney has been a liberal (much like Democrats of the 80s). Now he claims to have been converted to conservatism. A liberal masquerading as a conservative - just another RINO.

While at times McCain does put on a "decent act", he can't cover the fact that he is indeed RINO.

RINO Guliani is as close to pure communism/nazism as any of the "Democrats". It appears that the only reason that he fears that he would not make it once the USA falls to social-fascism - that he would just be another peon.

Fred Thompson will drop out soon
My prediction:
After Fred Thompson loses the South Carolina primary by a double-digit margin, he will drop out of the race.

Duncan Hunter will too.

By February 1, the only remaining candidates in the race will be Romney, Giuliani, McCain and Huckabee. At most.

You can take that to the bank.

I'm Gonna
hold my nose and vote for McCain. Romney's TOO slick and somewhat of a flip-flopper. The Huckster means well, but just doesn't have the background to deal effectively with the War on Terror, IMHO.

for silas
silas writes: "The Republicans have fielded a weak team this time around. It’s hard to get excited about any of them."

I disagree.
There's nothing wrong with the candidates. Any of them is superior to Bob Dole (1996) or Gerald Ford (1976) or Nelson Rockefeller (1968).

The problem with the GOP is truly ideological. It's coming apart as a party, pulled apart by the sharp disagreements between the social conservatives and the economic conservatives.

In years past, the social conservatives stuck only to social issues like abortion, and left economic policy to the Larry Kudlow/Dick Armey/Wall Street wing of the GOP. No longer. They now have a populist economic agenda too, and open warfare has broken out between them (and their champion, Huckabee) and the rest of the GOP.

The last time the GOP was in this much turmoil was 1964. And you know the result: A badly split party lost the general election in a landslide. But in the years that followed, the party redefined its principles and its purpose and came back to power.

I think that's where things are now. The GOP is going to lose the general election, possibly in a landslide. But then it can go away, do some introspection, and work out a new agenda for itself that will attract voters.

You can't keep papering this split over by chanting the mantra "Reagan coalition" anymore. It's not working anymore.

Stevel, I agree
with your entire analysis, except the probability of the GOP losing the general election. The country is still polarized somewhere around 49-51 or 51-49, just like it was in 2000 and 2004. I predict another cliff-hanger in the general.

Romney, McCain and Huckabee
They all have their faults.

Huckabee, though viewed as genuine and as understanding the concerns of middle and lower middle class Americans, has a kind of leftist oriented Christian evangelical social gospel, which could be troubling to many conservatives. Some non evangelical conservatives have problems with a few of his positions.

McCain's drawback of course is his position on the border and immigration(where he claims now to have seen the error of his ways and now supports border security before any other immigration measure can be adopted), campaign finance reform.

McCain's maverick status also alienates alot of G.W. Bush kool-aid drinkers, tho he supports Bush on the surge.

Romney, while smart and articulate and able to assemble a competent staff of advisors around him were he to become president(what a change that would be from what we have now!!!), is seen as elitist, artificial, a flip-flopper, plus unfortunately his mormom religion might be a turn-off to some conservatives.

I still think McCain has the best chance of defeating the democrat this November, but even that is a long-shot.

It is interesting daily.kos has instructed its leftist flock to support Romney in the Michigan primary(even democrats can vote in the GOP primary, and certainly independents do), which raises the question as to why this leftist group wants Romney to win.

Do they think he is the least able to defeat the democrats in November?

Yep, Fred is toast
Too bad too, because he and Duncan Hunter are the only two worth voting for.

RE:Fred Thompson will drop out soon
stevel
I agree with your comments except that you forgot about Ron Paul. He still has money and will remain in the race.

Apparently, you didn't get the email: Us “Paulbots”, or whatever pejorative one may wish to attach to us, aren't giving up. The stakes are too high.

I also agree with your comments to Silas. The Republican party is in for some tough times. If it is to survive, it will need to be purged of its neocon and “bipartisan” elements. Otherwise, it will go the way of the Whigs.

To Michigander:
You need to let go of your nose and review the issues regarding McCain-Feingold before you pull the lever for McCain. He seems to have no principles beyond getting re-elected.


Mc Cain Endorsement from "The State"
News Flash!!

"The State", the liberal rag in Columbia, SC, has endorsed John McCain for the SC Republican primary.

I don't think they have endorsed for the Democrat primary yet as the Democrat primary is 1 week later than the Republican.

However, "The State" ALWAYS endorses the Democrat in the general election.

Do ya rekon that they are endorsing Mc Cain because they know that he will divide the Republican vote because some of us remember his positions on immigration and campaign finance "reform"?

Such pontificating! Ha Ha Ha

I'm no McCain fan (not by a long shot) but he was declared "toast" and almost out of money several months ago?

But didn't he win a primary recently? Why yes, I believe he DID! So much for that prediction!

But, the ONLY thing that's been consistent is paul's number ('cause he's still holding single digits!!!) in spite of his claimed record donations.





SAVE MICHIGAN - RAZE DETROIT

.....And salt the Earth the way the Romans did to get rid of Carthage ...

.....Guns are protected by the Second Amendment so I don't think any President can change that ...unless enough Liberal Justices are appointed to SCOTUS so that penumbras are found that restrict guns to the National Guard ...

.....You are right about the Southern influence outside the big cities in that area ...when I was young I worked in the Steel Mills ouside of Chicago and most of the mill workers were from Southern States ...I met this girl named Effie from Harlan County Kentucky ...but that's another story .....COLOSSUS

Ron Paul's stance on the 2nd Amendment
I share our Founders’ belief that in a free society each citizen must have the right to keep and bear arms. They ratified the Second Amendment knowing that this right is the guardian of every other right, and they all would be horrified by the proliferation of unconstitutional legislation that prevents law-abiding Americans from exercising this right.

I have always supported the Second Amendment and these are some of the bills I have introduced in the current Congress to help restore respect for it:

H.R. 1096 includes provisions repealing the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act and the Federal Firearms License Reform Act of 1993, two invasive and unconstitutional bills.

H.R. 1897 would end the ban on carrying a firearm in the National Park System, restoring Americans’ ability to protect themselves in potentially hazardous situations.

H.R. 3305 would allow pilots and specially assigned law enforcement personnel to carry firearms in order to protect airline passengers, possibly preventing future 9/11-style attacks.

H.R. 1146 would end our membership in the United Nations, protecting us from their attempts to tax our guns or disarm us entirely.

In the past, I introduced legislation to repeal the so-called “assault weapons” ban before its 2004 sunset, and I will oppose any attempts to reinstate it.

I also recently opposed H.R. 2640, which would allow government-appointed psychiatrists to ban U.S. veterans experiencing even mild forms of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome from ever owning a gun.

You have the right to protect your life, liberty, and property. As President, I will continue to guard the liberties stated in the Second Amendment.

JERABAUB

.....My informants tell me that KOS wants Romney to win Michigan because they want to keep as many Republicans in the race for as long as possible so that they will tear at each others throats and thus make it easier for a Democrat to win the General election ...

.....I don't agree with that strategy ...I would prefer to extend the debate to seperate the wheat from the chaff and I would have no problem with the final selection being made at the Convention .....COLOSSUS

Michigan
has 2 industries. Manufacturing and tourism. A huge portion of tourism is supported by hunting and MI isn't alone in that.
Our rights are being given away by a primary process that eliminates the candidates who would represent the whole country, not just the urban areas where all a gun is for is self-defence.
We allow the pollsters and the talking heads to tell us who is winning and who we should give our support to.
A Thompson/McCain ticket would get my vote but Fred probably won't even be on the ballot when Ohio has their primary.
We need to have several nation-wide primaries over a 6-8 month period and select a candidate who has to talk to ALL of us. What we have now amounts to a divide-and-conquer system that leaves the last states short on candidates (choices).

I'LL CASH THAT CHECK

.....STEVEL ...

.....My prediction is that Fred is beginning to surge ...although the media is sitting on it ...and he will split votes with Huckabee tipping the State to McCain with Thompson a respectable second ...

.....I predict that Huckabee will drop out as he competes in States where independents and Democrats cannot vote for him ...

.....McCain will run out of gas just as he did in 2000 after voters tune out the cheerleading media and begin examining Mac's record on immigration and sundry other issues ...

.....Thompson will pick up Huckabee's votes and Giuliani will pick up McCains votes and Romney will have the money to continue to the end ...

.....my bank is BAC .....COLOSSUS

baseballdoc
I agree with that.


McKennedy
If McKennedy is the Rep nominee, I'll be forced to vote for a democrat or third party. If McCain is elected President we might as well just sign the papers to give the Southwestern U.S. to Mexico. Portions seem like Border Towns already. Many stores in Texas english is never heard unless your're checking out.(and then its broken)
Amnessty McCain will be the straw that breaks the camels back. At least with the Dems we know they want to give amnesty, McCain lies about wanting to secure the border and send some illegals back. Once he's elected all promises are gone.

McKennedy
If McKennedy is the Rep nominee, I'll be forced to vote for a democrat or third party. If McCain is elected President we might as well just sign the papers to give the Southwestern U.S. to Mexico. Portions seem like Border Towns already. Many stores in Texas english is never heard unless your're checking out.(and then its broken)
Amnessty McCain will be the straw that breaks the camels back. At least with the Dems we know they want to give amnesty, McCain lies about wanting to secure the border and send some illegals back. Once he's elected all promises are gone.

Froman
fredo1,I stand corrected x 4!

Thanks wayward 1
I guess I can go work out now and walk my dog.
Keep em honest, bro!

To GW: I hear you.

To baseballdoc: Just don't forget Ron Paul. However, If Fred is the Republican nominee, I MIGHT support him. (no promises) The rest of those guys scare me as much as Hitlery and Obama.
Salt the earth!! I'm with you on that one.

Huckabee spoils race...

Without Huck, Romney and Thompson would surge in Michigan.

Huckabee has one message on TV here... Abortion.

Pro-lifers are throwing votes and cash at Huckabee.

Rural conservatives in leftist states
Interesting observation about Michigan's demographics & electorate. But isn't it true that many "liberal" states actually have considerable rural conservative populations buried electorally under cities run by leftists & Democratic machines? E.g. NY state away from NYC, MA away from Boston, MD away from Baltimore & the DC suburbs, PA outside Philly, IL outside the Chicago area, rural Ohio, & so forth. Even California has significant conservative enclaves when you get away from the LA & San Francisco metro areas.

Urban people, for various reasons, seem to have an affinity for government intrusions & restrictions & high taxes. (Especially of course when they apply mainly to other people!) Furthermore, I sometimes suspect they push for a lot of the policies they do specifically to motivate limited-gvmt conservatives to move away so they can tighten their grip even more.

Thanks to that bogus "collective rights" theory, even Democrats can say w/ a straight face they support (their version of) the 2nd Amendment.

There is simply no excuse for a Republican not defending the 2nd Amendment (not to mention the 1st; sayonada Johnnie Mack!). Citizen disarmament is a Democratic Party axiom; if you're OK w/ that, go there.

Citizens who value their 2nd Amendment rights aren't "single issue." If everyone, esp non-Demmies, would stipulate individual gun rights & not even have that issue on the table, they could look at other things. However, for many of us, an anti-gun record not only is a failure to meet a fundamental qualification, but it indicates the wrong attitude about a whole spectrum of other issues, too. Thus, I have no apologies for eliminating nominees soft on gun rights out of hand.

You want gun rights?
"Ron Paul has been a leader in the fight to defend and restore the 2nd Amendment." - Larry Pratt, Exec. Director, Gun Owners of America

Paul is the only candidate consistently moving up in support and donations. Could we mention that once in a while? Or should we turn up the volume control on Gulliani's laughing while on stage?

Most of the candidates make me feel embarassed to be an American.

BBalldoc, I want a piece of that, too
I also think Fred's still in the race, and I've given him money and intend to vote for him in the Cal primary.

He'd be great heading a ticket with Hunter -- now THAT would be a surefire winner in November.


Agreed, Buck, and further
Most social conservatives are almost by definition fiscal conservatives. The reverse does NOT hold true. It's one of the hallmarks of neo-conism: fiscal/foreign policy conservatism coupled with social liberalism.

We see it in Medved, Giuliani, Kristol, Rove, both Bushes.


Fred shines, media eyes are shut tight
I'm disappointed this article did not include Fred's opinion on gun control. He appears to be the one candidate who's sincere and has wisdom regarding this issue as well as each of the others that concern us. His manner is fully comforting. The public has the right to know who Fred is. I'm certain that with Fred as President we'd be a much happier and secure nation. Our rights, our freedom, would not be trampled on with the kind of leadership he'd provide.

The Michigan primary will put
paid to Huckleberry's run. The religious lefties will be the only ones voting for him in Michigan and there just aren't very many of them in MI.

I think SC will go the same way. I am hoping that the religious people in SC have researched liar Huck's record because his ads which are going virtually non-stop in SC make him sound like a cross between Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan while being a Baptist preacher.

In reality he is a Baptist Ted Kennedy.

I'd vote for Fred but
he won't win so I'm gona vote for X, Y or Z! I am so sick and tired of hearing that kind of garbage I could scream! Of course he won't win if you don't vote for him! What do people think this is....a popularity contest? This is for the welfare of our country and for our FREEDOM! This isn't betting on the outcome of a football game...this is betting on the future of our country! I am not voting for someone because I THINK he might win....I am voting for Fred because I WANT him to win. He doesn't stand a snowballs chance in Hades here in nanny MN but my vote will go to him even if I have to write him in! Thank You.....(rant over)

Michigan born and raised:
Born, raised, and still a Michigander (no Michigeese statements LOL).
Stuff the gun $hit, I don't own one, BUT I don't think they are taking anyone's either!
The IMPORTANT item to me is: Shut the borders! First congress voted overwhelmingly for it, you know so that YOU would re-elect them, then WE got the shaft from San Fran Nan, and the rest of the congress, FORGET IT, they say, Fancy Nancy needs the illegals for HER hotels and grape vines, the rest of us can shut the hell up!
YOU are correct 13 counties in Michigan DECIDE WHO will represent the rest of us. Union sheeple vote the way the union tells them to: DEMOCRAT PERIOD!!! So the rest of the conservatives can just forget it:
Detroit is on a welfare lollypop, along with her large Latino faction, so forget it:
WE got a nice State income tax increase thanks to our $TUPID Govenor a Democrat that said" Wait for the next 5 years we will blow you away"., sorry Gov. it seems like the dynamite went off with our 7.4% unemploymnet, and said state tax increase didn't cut off the illegals OR the Welfare groups!!! NOT a DIME!
Go to http://www.zipskinny.com, and type in zip code 49091, Sturgis, MI. in the 2000 census we had 8.6% Hispanic, the 2005 US Dept. of Ed. has the Hispanics 11.3% of High school students, and some of the elem. up to 33.4% of students, do the math, This small Mich. town is now 1/3 Hispanic according to the mayor, BUT nothing he will do along with the county, or State about the illegals. MY MAIN ISSUE OF the next election.
SO NO to McAmnesty, the McPain!

Well, Buck
I can't go that far with you, because the ME issues are much more complex than the oversimplification you've presented, and we have many areas of national self-interest in the region, among them, IMO, the support of a strategic ally in Israel.

But we wander far off-topic with this discussion.

By social conservatism, I was thinking more along the lines of gun ownership (on topic), right to life, law and order, federalism, small government, things along those lines.

Well ranted, navywave!
I'm with you, pard!


Ragnar/bluerev
First, Huckabee is as committed on the Second Amendment as Thompson. Froman was dealing with the three candidates who actually have a good chance of winning MI. Let's face it, it's coming down in to Huck, McCain or Romney in that state.

Second, Ron Paul voted against the bill to end lawsuits against American gun makers. As many NRA members know, the gun industry in America was actually approaching bankruptcy because of these lawsuits. Without that law, the entire industry could have gone bankrupt. Ron Paul opposed that law, and in doing so voted to doom the American gun industry. I do not excuse his vote.

The focus on the article was the mention the three leading candidates in MI. Froman fairly pointed out that all three had a record that was not anti-gun (like Hillary or Obama), and that Huckabee has the only perfect record out of those three.

There's no point in kicking sand in any of the other's faces, because Froman may have to have dealings with them if they become the nominee and the choice is between them and Hillary.

Fred Thompson is a DO-NOTHING candidate
The people who are behind Fred Thompson are more hopeless than Fred Thompson himself.

The last thing the Republicans need is a grouchy old geezer with wrinkled face who was a big DO-NOTHING in the Senate.

Between Fred Thompson's 1980 vote for Howard Baker (over Ronald Reagan) and Mitt Romney's 1980 vote for Jimmy Carter (over Ronald Reagan) the Republicans are trotting out some world class hypocrites this year.

Can the hee-haw rednecks learn to spell?
Nobody expects a hee-haw redneck country bumpkin to spell the names of candidates correctly, but when a gross misspelling is repeated ad-nauseum it bears correcting.

So here's a spelling lesson:

It's Huckabee, not Huckleberry.

Spell it again. H u c k a b e e.

There's your spelling lesson for the day.

Fred is the LEAST INSPIRING candidate
If you want more of the same (and perhaps worse) in Washington, vote for the grumpy old man Fred Thompson or John McCain.

If you believe that God DOES NOT EXIST and seek a candidate from a pro-choice liberal family whose own core values are liberal (politically motivated flip flopping aside) and does not worship the true God, but the false cult god of Joseph Smith, then Mitt Romney is your man.

Well I guess we have heard from one
of Huckleberry's Hounds. We here in redneck Podunck, SC give a big Hee Haw salute to Huckleberry and his hounds...

Saaaaluuute!

LOL, Vic. Yep!!!
Another hee-haw for the Huckleberry from a hick in the burbs of LA.

I'm not really interested in a pro-illegal alien, big government yahoo from Arkansas -- look at our LAST Presidsent from Arkansas.

'Nuff said!


The gun vote in Michigan???
You must be joking!!A one state recession, high unemployment, citizens leaving the state in droves, education failing and over taxation and you think the gun vote will do it!!!!

Free Speaker Re; Ron Paul
Yes. Ron Paul voted against the bill to end lawsuits against American gun makers. You’re welcome to Google search the following to see his reasoning. {Gun Rights vs. Centralization by Rep. Ron Paul.}

His position based on a States Rights issue seems reasonable and I don’t believe detracts from his support of the 2ed Amd.

If you want to know
Mike Huckabee's positions on various issues, go to http://www.mikehuckabee.com

You will be amazed at how posters on townhall.com are misrepresenting, distorting and lying about his postions.

It speaks very poorly of their (the liars) candidates that they would lie about other candidates' positions. It also seems to speak to their desperation.

Fred is NRA's favorite candidate

Yeah Vic, and here's a fact
Since 1980 the GOP candidate has won every time -- and only when -- endorsed by the NRA.

We vote our guns. Period.

Off the Mark
That’s right, Carpetbagger, Fred Thompson is a DO-NOTHING candidate. Fred would DO NOTHING to hasten America’s descent into the nanny-state theocracy espoused by your beloved Huckster.

(My spelling checker suggests that I change Huckabee to Chickadee—but I’ve decided to ignore.)

Are you really sure that Huckabee, as President, wouldn’t wake up one morning, and decide that the lead in bullets presents a greater danger to Americans than smoking or baby back ribs. What good would it be to have the right to keep and bear arms, if there is a nation-wide ban on ammunition?

Flabbergasted
DOJ files amicus brief supporting DC in gun case.

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/01/government_file_1 .php

Free Speaker: Please read my post again
Ron Paul has been with the NRA on everything except the "the bill to end junk lawsuits against gun dealers". He opposed that one on 10th Amendment grounds. His history has shown that he will fight for all of our rights to the bitter end. He will do this on principle, not for political expediency. NONE of the other candidates will do this.

Also, please consider what Calabash says above:
"Are you really sure that Huckabee, as President, wouldn’t wake up one morning, and decide that the lead in bullets presents a greater danger to Americans than smoking or baby back ribs. What good would it be to have the right to keep and bear arms, if there is a nation-wide ban on ammunition?"

Ragnar
I agree with you. The distinction between federal powers versus the powers of the sovereign states seems often to fall by the wayside in discussions among conservatives in support of an agenda. Fred Thompson and Ron Paul both advocate federalism, and I applaud Paul for never condescending to the position that the end justifies the means.

Vic, don't panic
I read the PDF version of the brief, and though it would have been better if they hadn't asked for remand, there are some very important operative sections:

"Summary of Argument" Section B. Main argument that the idea that convicted felons and other "limited" classes is constitutional, i.e. the right is not absolute. Like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is not protected under the 1st A. Yeah, there are some other errors, like the reference to "machine guns" going back to the founding era. Guess there was a time machine at some point. But overall, as I read it, it supports the "individual" right interpretation.

It's actually not a bad brief. I'm not sure why thewy suggest remand, other than in an effort to limit the "damage" from a broad SCOTUS ruling..... if you consider that damage.

Bear in mind: Bush hasn't ever been a strong conservative, and it's HIS Justice Department.

One more reason to vote for Thompson.

Rudy is
a gun-grabber only because of the Sullivan Act - Right, sure. If Rudy had cared about the people, he would have had the Sullivan Act repealed or amended to turn the helpless victims of NYC into people able to defend themselves.
McCain is a RINO liberal which makes him a gun grabber.
Romney and Huckabuck are liberal gun grabbers.
The one I want to be the GOP candidate is Fred Thompson with J C Watts as his running mate.

Froman does not know Michigan
Froman has completely ignored Lansing and Ann Arbor, which are very liberal. She also ignored Flint, Saginaw, Battle Creek, and Kalamazoo, which are heavily unionized.

She also apparently doesn't know (or has forgotten) that the NEA got started in Michigan and the Michigan delegation to NEA national meetings is commonly referred to as the "Michigan Mafia".

Michigan will go to the Democrat in November unless the Republican nominee is Romney, a favorite son of Michigan.

Michigan voters are not worried about federal interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. How do I know? Because Michigan has a concealed carry law. Michiganians are secure and content that law-abiding citizens will be able keep and bear arms. How else do I know? Because in November of 2006, while they were re-electing the incompetent Jennifer Granholm to a second term of taxing and spending, they were also voting in favor of the conservative position on four ballot referendums, including opposition to gay marriage, by margins of 58-60% to 40-42%.

Michigan elected know-nothing-do-nothing Debbie Stabenow to the Senate in 2000 over Spencer Abraham and has made tax-and-spender Carl Levin a member of the Democrat-Senator-for-Life club.

Right now there is an initiative on the ballot to make Michigan a Right-to Work State and all the ads on TV are in opposition to it.

The DNC has punished Michigan for moving its primary up by making the Democrat primary nothing but a beauty contest and forbidding candidates from campaigning here. So look for a big crossover turnout to go for McCain, the way they did in 2000.

Finally, with all the welfare and unemployment cases here looking for a handout you can be sure there will be a big vote here for the federal nanny state.

Ron... great point!
If Baldy was so concerned about the Sullivan Act, why didn't he file suit against THAT?

Because he sure had no problem in filing suit against the Fed Gov to protest the line-item veto, and he had no problem about filing suits against out-of-state gun dealers and manufactuers.

The guy's a schmuck (to put it in New Yawka terms).

lousy governors
Family members who've spent their entire lives in MI had advised me that RINO John M. Engler was the worst governor that they had. But, after Canadian social-marxist Jennifer Granholm was elected to office, they assured me that Engler was in second place - that the marxist Canadian was the worst ever elected during their life span.

Ron: I call that the "Dream Team!"

Thompson & Watts... and for a multiple of reasons. :-)





Thompson/Hunter, Anne
The only reason Watt's name comes up occassionally is because he's Black, and it's an effort to match the PCness of the Dems.

The guy's so yesterday's news.


BrianR: I've been thinking

Thompson/Hunter for a long time... My first choice.


BUT.... IT could work... as I said, for a multitude of reasons... :-)

I'm not 100% convinced that it's just an effort to match the dems... but......................


Either way, my first and primary concern is THOMPSON!!! We can worry about VP later. :-)




And did you see my post to you ...? I meant looking or that pic of Walker and Neva in the sim with their grandfater for YOU... :-)






Calabash. RE Ron Paul
I can’t say I agree with everything Ron Paul, or any other candidate has as planks in their platform. This hasn’t happened in the 38 years Ive been voting. Nor will it happen unless I list myself as a write in candidate. LOL. But the one reason I believe in, and will vote for Dr. Paul is he’s shown himself as one who follows his principles, even at the possible cost of his political career, which it may well cost him. As most people know, Dr. Paul is a RINO, who’s basically a Libertarian who felt he could better advance Libertarian principles by running as a Republican. Though he’ll likely not win the nomination, Im hoping he’ll help enlighten voters with some Libertarian principles by getting national recognition as a “republican’ candidate. And perhaps some of his ideas will influence who ever is our next President.

Hey BrianR.. and all...Did you see this?
John Konop writes: Sunday, January, 13, 2008 4:08 PM
Fox Attacks Ron Paul?
WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/fox-attacks-ron-pa ul


Attack? NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! But an EXCELLENT example of the leftists' treachery...


(As Glenn Beck would say, it'll make blood shoot out of your eyes!)





Hey Ragnar: Back in time for the Super

Bowl? Good for you!!!

I agree in that paul has some good ideas... on paper or in theory, but that's as far as it goes.

I was glad to hear Thompson talk about some of the very monetary issues paul has been talking about... so obviously you're right in that he has had an impact on at least some of the candidates' thinking.

BUT.. and I do mean BUT... that's as far as it goes as far as I'm concerned.

paul has blown past "smaller gov't." stright to dismantling the gov't. for all practicle purposes. Leaving the ME, as paul suggests, would be the kiss of death...

IMHO, paul is one scary man, and in no way should be in our WH.



Hey Ragnar: The twit just showed

up, so I'm headed to a different thread....

See ya there....






Robert asks: “Are NRA stupid & inept?


I suspect NRA members, (and I believe there are 3 Million of them), are much like any cross section of people. In other words, some may be stupid, inept, and narrow in prospective in how they vote. And some are very capable, highly intelligent and careful to consider and analyze all issues in an election. But the fact that “capt” Robert uses one example to stereotype millions of voters says far more about him than it does about those he stereotypes.
Nice try “capt” Robert. Shot down again. But please give me your standard lame retort of: “Study for you sim check, Freight Dog”. It seems it’s the best you’ve got.

Note: I assume by now everyone has seen my often posted expose of phony “capt” Robert and the “capt” Robert song: “The Great Blovator”. So I’ll not bother unless someone wants to see either again.

Hey, Roberto the Loon
of the Order of the Tin Foil Hat.

You want to argue the facts and history? Go ahead.

What I wrote is exactly that.

So... thanks again for your greatly unsolicited and vastly ignorant opinion.

Good hearing from you, like always.




Oh, by the way, Roberto. The tinfoil hat people called and left a message for ya. Time to get your hat reblocked, so it doesn't get too tight.


I suspect they may have lost track of time.


BrianR writes:
BTW, Roberto
YOU are on the thread, so my last post was properly addressed to Sir Roberto the Loon of the Order of the Tin Foil Hat.

That's you, bud.


Brian: You are aware that Rockhead J. Squirrel is either too dumb to realize when he has been insulted, or is so arrogant that he thinks himself better than anyone, and that he does not deserve to be insulted.

BTW, Rockhead pretty much inferred that I know nothing about the racial makeup and situation in the Dallas Independent School District. I only graduated from Dallas ISD school, and have spent the last 7.5 school years teaching in the district, but what do I know about it in comparison to the All Knowing, All Wise, All Wonderful Rockhead of Oz.

Oh, yeah, Lumberjack (and Roberto)
A**hat Roberto is well-familiar to me.

He's this flea that keeps making anooying sounds from time to time.




BTW, Roberto, you schmuck, you miss the whole point of my post. I guess it was over your head, as it did require an IQ of at least the mid-two-digits to understand.

You're dismissed.



Rockhead J. Squirrel writes:
unique...

I mean uniquely qualified because of the fact that you graduated from a DISD school.

The mind boggles with the awe.. we are in the presence of Titans.

Robert

Hey Stupid, READ (assuming you are beyond the "Dick and Jane" level in reading ability, a dubious assumption at best) the whole post.

Well, LumberJ
I see that other than you and I, the last post from an actual sentient being here was Ragnar over two hours ago. The thread seems dead.

I'm never interested in wasting my time with the nonsense of brain-dead Roberto or his empty-head compatriot HalD, so I guess I'll sign off.

If you want to continue kicking Roberto's sorry arse, you have an open field, my friend.


Robert: RE my personal insults.

I have neither a problem nor reluctance insulting “capt” Robert, as long as he continues to insult Naval Aviators by claiming to be one of us. I have ZERO tolerance for such phonies, and it’s obvious the vast majority of us on TH have been able to see through his BULL SH1T and outrageous claims for some time. Even in the rare instances when he has a valid point, he has NO CREDIBILITY. There’s obviously something about this pin head that enjoys being shot down in flames and torn a new a** hole every time he posts. We’re all glad to oblige. LMAO

Ragnar Deneskjold writes:
Robert: RE my personal insults.

I have neither a problem nor reluctance insulting “capt” Robert, as long as he continues to insult Naval Aviators by claiming to be one of us. I have ZERO tolerance for such phonies, and it’s obvious the vast majority of us on TH have been able to see through his BULL SH1T and outrageous claims for some time. Even in the rare instances when he has a valid point, he has NO CREDIBILITY. There’s obviously something about this pin head that enjoys being shot down in flames and torn a new a** hole every time he posts. We’re all glad to oblige. LMAO

What's really pathetic about him is that he continually expects us to believe his bullsh!t not only about his Naval "experience," but also his expertise in any field in which he has said he has "worked." Such experience usually arises after a poster mentions his/her own in the same field. Boy does he exhibit a major inferiority complex.

JamieR writes:
Well, Brian and Lumberjack
What else do you expect from the atmospheric "expert" who stated as fact that FLORAL carbons are destroying the ozone layer?

Well, I guess it'd a good thing my wife and I tilled up our rose garden. We would NOT want the aroma the roses put out to adversely affect the atmosphere.

Well,
tomorrow is going to be a long day. First a full day at my DISD teaching job, then teaching class from 5:45 p.m. to 10:05 p.m. at the college level, and a long commote home. So I say, "Goodnight all," wxcept to Rockhead J. Squirrel. To him I say, "Get some help psychologically. You need it."

Lumberjack7392 Re: Delusional Robert
Regarding “capt” Roberts' many claims to fame and accomplishment:

He’s become a sad joke on TH. The working of his mind, and by extension, his arguments, are reminiscent of an M. C. Escher painting in words: Turning inward on itself: leading nowhere: a carefully crafted product of illusion and delusion: designed to deceive.

Froman
Of all the Republican candidates Ron Paul and Fred Thompson are the ones who will defend gun rights.
All the others are fakes phonies and frauds. My vote is for Ron Paul with Thompson as VP.

McCain is one of the biggest phonies around. He suppressed the 1st amdt and voted against every single pro-gun vote that came on the floor.

All citizens must get it in to their heads that the 2nd amdt protects all the rest. The Socialists don’t want you to have guns because they fear up rising and revolution against their socialist goals and objectives. With out guns they can and will dismantle our Consititution
Believe me, I think you will see it. Americans hopefully will wake up and see the screwing ALL Americans are getting. Politicians STAY AWAY FROM OUR GUNS! We will need them to defend ourselves against you much more than any burglar breaking into our house

Floral carbons
If anything is destroying the Ozone layer it's Al Gore's flatulence causing the pollution.

Ron Paul
The NRA says "Vote Freedom First" but does not even mention the one candidate who makes freedom a centerpiece of his campaign, Ron Paul. Ron Paul is the most pro-freedom, pro-constitution, pro-second amendment candidate in either party.

The NRA, like the mainstream media, has done its best to marginalize Ron Paul. You give lip service to McCain even though you have previously claimed that the McCain Feingold act threatened your ability to communicate political info to your members. You Talk about Romney but his gun rights record is anything but good.

When I ran a word search of this article for "Paul" I found only a side bar article entitled "Why Paulpots hate kids." As a father, grandfather and avid Paul supporter you cannot imagine how offensive I find that.

I'm beginning to get the idea that defending the second amendment is not the central goal of the NRA.

McCain stabbed Oregon in the back
Senator McCain, who has been touting his support for the rights of gun owners,
took a huge bribe - reportedly a million dollars or more - from noted gungrabber and
"monster.com" magnate Andrew McKelvey, to appear in television ads here in Oregon
when we were fighting an anti-gun initiative measure a few years ago. The measure,
which ultimately passed, saddled us with background check requirements for private
sales at gun shows, and with a firearms registration database operated by the Oregon
State Police.

Here is a URL documenting McCain's involvement with McKelvey's
deceptively named anti-gun organization "Americans for Gun Safety":
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=61

McCain thought it was so important to attack our gun rights, that he took
time out from representing Arizona in the Senate to slither up here to
Oregon and interfere in an Oregon election. Oregon's gun owners were holding
their own in the campaign against the anti-gun initiative, until McKelvey and
his lapdog McCain started brainwashing the electorate with slick anti-gun TV ads.

Oregon's gun owners will NEVER forgive McCain, and if Michigan's gun
owners contribute in any way to putting him in the Oval Office, they
will live to regret it.

At least Hitlary would stab us in the front...
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