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Wednesday, December 05, 2007
Roy Innis :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Truth About "Alternative Energy"
by Roy Innis
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Every week brings new claims that clean, free, inexhaustible renewable energy will soon replace the “dirty” fuels that sustain our economy today. A healthy dose of reality is needed.

Over half of our electricity comes from coal. Gas and nuclear generate 36% of our electricity. Barely 1% comes from wind and solar. Coal-generated power typically costs less per kilowatt hour than alternatives – leaving families with more money for food, housing, transportation and healthcare.

By 2020, the United States will need 100,000 megawatts of new electricity, say EIA, industry and utility company analysts. Unreliable wind power simply cannot meet these demands.

Wind farms require subsidies and vast stretches of land. To meet New York City’s electricity needs alone would require blanketing the entire state of Connecticut with towering turbines, according to Rockefeller University Professor Jesse Ausubel. They kill raptors and other birds, and must be backed up by expensive coal or gas power plants that mostly sit idle – but kick in whenever the wind dies down, so factories, schools, offices and homes don’t shut down.

On a scale sufficient to meet the electricity needs of a modern society, wind power is just not sustainable.

For three decades, US demand for natural gas has outpaced production. In fact, gas prices have tripled since 1998, to $13 per thousand cubic feet today, and every $1 increase costs US consumers an additional $22 billion a year.

With Congress and states locking up more gas prospects every year, this trend is likely to continue – further driving up prices and forcing us to import increasing amounts of expensive liquefied natural gas, often from less than friendly nations.

We simply cannot afford to halt the construction of new coal-fired power plants, though some are trying to do exactly that.

Chesapeake Energy Corp. masterminded and bankrolled anti-coal initiatives in Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas. The scheme was intended to drive up the price of natural gas, and thus profits, by making coal less available and more expensive – with little regard for poor families.

As Kansas discovered after its environmental chief blocked a proposed new coal generator, coal projects also come with transmission lines to carry intermittent wind-generated electricity and more reliable coal-generated power. Wind farms typically do not. Now a dozen Kansas wind projects are also on hold.

Former Clinton Administration environment staffer Katy McGinty engineered the lockup of 7 billion tons of low sulfur Utah coal, worth $1 trillion. Current and proposed air and water quality rules would make it even more difficult and expensive to provide adequate coal-fired electricity. But the facts support more coal use, not less.

Power plants fueled by coal are far less polluting than 30 years ago. Just since 1998, their annual sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions have declined another 28% and 43% respectively, according to air quality expert Joel Schwartz – and new rules will eliminate most remaining emissions by 2015.

Coal-fired power plants are now the primary source of US mercury emissions only because the major sources (incinerating wastes and processing ores containing mercury) have been eliminated. US mercury emissions are now down 82% since the early 1980s; America accounts for only 2% of all global mercury emissions; 55% of global emissions come from volcanoes, oceans and forest fires; and two-thirds of mercury deposition in America comes from other countries, Schwartz adds. (Compact fluorescent lightbulbs or CFLs could become a more serious potential source of mercury than power plants.) Nevertheless, new EPA rules require a further 70% reduction in mercury from power plants by 2015.

That leaves carbon dioxide and catastrophic climate change as rationales for opposing coal. The latest UN-IPCC report again reduces projections for future temperature increases, polar melting and sea level rise. Moreover, increasing scientific evidence suggests only slight warming, climate change controlled primarily by solar cycles, and no storm, drought or sea level trends that exceed historical experience.

Yet, claims about imminent catastrophes have become increasingly hysterical, as a prelude to international climate negotiations in Bali.

The inconvenient truth is that these climate chaos horror stories are based almost entirely on computer models and digital disaster scenarios. They are no more real than the raptors in “Jurassic Park.”

Nevertheless, politicians are promoting initiatives like the Lieberman-Warner bill and Midwestern Governors Association climate pact, which they say will prevent a cataclysm, by slashing CO2 emissions by 60-80% and generating “thousands of megawatts” from wind energy.

If these initiatives become law, experts say electricity rates would soar another 50% by 2012. Labor unions predict millions of lost jobs, as companies shift operations to foreign countries.

Preeminent alarmists Al Gore and Hillary Clinton emit more CO2 in a week from the private jets they take to campaign, lecture and fund-raising events, than the average American does in a year. And yet they’re demanding a wholesale “transformation” of our economy and living standards.

Mrs. Clinton says she is switching to CFLs, to save a few kilowatts, which brings us full circle on the mercury issue. Mr. Gore justifies his emissions by noting that he gets “carbon offset” indulgences from his company.

China and other rapidly developing countries will build 1,000 new coal plants during the next five years – with few of the pollution controls that we require. That means even major sacrifices by American workers and families won’t affect global temperatures, even if CO2 is the primary cause of global warming – which numerous scientists say is not the case.

We need every energy resource: oil, gas, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear – and wind, solar and geothermal.

We cannot replace 52% of our electricity (the coal-based portion) with technologies that currently provide only 1% of that power (mainly wind). Wind is a supplement, not an alternative.

We cannot generate electricity with hot air from politicians eager to create tax breaks, subsidies and “renewable energy mandates” for companies that produce alternative energy technologies – in exchange for campaign contributions from those companies.

We cannot afford to trash the energy we have, and substitute energy that exists only in campaign speeches and legislative decrees.

Poor and minority families can least afford such “energy policies.”

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About The Author
Roy Innis is national chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), one of America’s oldest and most respected civil rights groups, and a life-long advocate of economic development rights for poor families and communities around the world.
Absolutely right. In every respect
especially this:

"We cannot generate electricity with hot air from politicians..."

Thank you for that one.

Holes in the argument
“BY 2020, THE UNITED STATES WILL NEED 100,000 MEGAWATTS OF NEW ELECTRICITY, SAY EIA....”
Does the EIA analysis factor in the vast potential for greater efficiency in our use of electricity? Like most articles of this kind, Mr. Innis’s doesn’t even address that topic. See the Rocky Mountain Institute website (www.rmi.org) for a reality check on just how much power can be cost-effectively saved, without loss of comfort or convenience, using existing technologies. That should be the starting point for any effort to reform our energy policy.

“WIND FARMS REQUIRE SUBSIDIES AND VAST STRETCHES OF LAND.” It is interesting how conservative commentators emphasize subsidies for renewables but gives a pass to tax breaks for oil companies, government underwriting of insurance for nuke plants, etc. As for “vast stretches of land,” much of the wind potential can be realized by placing generators in farmers’ fields, thereby giving them a welcome second source of income.

“ON A SCALE SUFFICIENT TO MEET THE ELECTRICITY NEEDS OF A MODERN SOCIETY, WIND POWER IS JUST NOT SUSTAINABLE.”
It does have vast potential, but no one is asking for it to meet the full needs of a modern society. A sensible future energy policy will employ a mix of energy sources. Fossil fuels will surely become more expensive as we reach peak oil, but there will still be a vast amount of them. Used efficiently they will be able to supplement and smooth out energy loads for decades to come as we simultaneously increase our capacity for wind, photovoltaic, etc. and improve their storage technology.


Politicians and the government...
...are still operating on thirty year old popularity models. They believe that if the economy ceases to grow, then we will face economic disaster and they will be thrown out of office. That is one reason that big business wants to add 100 million Mexicans to the economy over the next twenty five years - to keep revenues and those stock prices ever climbing.

The reality of the situation is that nothing can grow forever. This nation has two choices:

1. We continue this madness until we have reached an unsustainable population of say 600 million - a day when we have been reduced to a third world nation plagued with crime and big government - a day when food, water and energy shortages cause wide-scale death - a day when our rights as citizens have been destroyed, or,

2. We can decide to mature as a nation, save, enhance and enjoy our natural and national resources and become another wonderland like Switzerland (for example). I think this alternative is what most Americans would like to see, instead of the unbridled growth, polution, crime and urban sprawl that is being forced upon us by unsustainable deficit spending and weak leadership.

Economic growth in some areas, stasis or shrinkage in others - but always population stabilization.

But if we are going to make this commitment, we had better do it before the Dems force amnesty upon us. Forty million can turn into 100 million, can turn into 200 million relatively quickly when you are dealing with a people whose heritage is primarily Catholic and who largely do not believe in birth control.

And, by the way, the 12 million figure being jockeyed about is pure hogwash - government disinformation.

All These 'Alternative Energy' Proposals
. . . seem as much based on the realities of the situation at hand as one or more of Ralph Kramden's typical crazy, hare-brained "get-rich-quick" schemes as spun on "The Honeymooners," most notably the one for "wallpaper that glows in the dark." Come to think of it, how long will it be before the "global-warming" cultists seek out anyone who would come up with that particular idea for real, and have us taxpayers foot the bill for its development?

If you repeat a lie often enough...
everyone will think there is truth to it.
I hear this mantra for the environmentalists are communist crowd "many scientists think global warming not real, its only based on computer models, recent findings are that it is not problem" this is all a well financed lie paid for by Exxon! the truth is the computer models have been found to be wrong yes BUT THEY UNDERESTIMATE not overestimate the problem! changes the models predict to happen at end of century are happening now. and its not just warming it is climate instability which means more extreme weather in all directions. when you mess with something you put it out of balance, putting more CO2 in atmosphere is like any perturbation to a very complicated system: the consequences are unpredictable and complicated.
We should try to develop our technology and human society in direction that does not twiddle so much with the non linear interacting parameters that govern our ecosystem

johninoregon
The only thing that the above article has wrong is the energy mix. His numbers are slightly out of date. Coal is now slightly less than 50%.

http://www.eei.org/industry_issues/industry_overview_and_st atistics/industry_statistics#fuelmix

You eco-idiots like to roll out that shopworn canard about “subsidies” for nuclear and other forms energy through the Price-Anderson Act. You obviously know NOTHING about how that works. All the act does is limit the total liability of a company with a Nuclear Plant to an amount that is insurable. Basically it is an anti-lawyer provision. The actual insurance is provided by a private firm. Yes you read that right, a PRIVATE firm that charges for this insurance just like mom and pop’s car. The government contributes NOTHING to this.

In point of fact, government over regulation of Nuclear power is an ANTI-subsidy that adds to the cost of the power and in most cases does not contribute to the safety of the plants. It is done by the anti-nuke faction of the eco-idiots who have stated in the past that the objective is NOT safety but to increase the price of the plants to the point that they will be uneconomical to operate. You know, just like solar and wind is now, uneconomical. They get these rules passed through their politicians who cater to them and who also appoint anti-nukes to the commissions who rule on nuclear affairs.

And your thought that “increased” efficiency will cause us to not need new plants is a joke. See my continuing post on eco myths at this Townhall column beginning at 5:22 am. This one deals with the “conservation myth”.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel/2007/11/14/d ont_look_to_government_to_cool_down_the_planet&Comments=tru e

the problem is that no matter which side
of the argument that you are on the fact is that there is too much politics of special interest.

There's not a single topic that isn't affected by it.

This great nation better wake up.

BTW, I liked the column.

The final solution
Just think.

What if we cut the world's population by 90%? That's a lot of CO2 not being exhaled, a lot of body temperature not warming the planet, a lot of fertilizer in shallow graves making plants grow better to consume more CO2.

Insane idea? Of course. But that's pretty much what the anti-man crowd has in mind. Mankind, that vile and hated entity destroying the Earth, is their mantra. Why don't they have a epiphany of honesty and come out and demand we rid the world of the "infestation" of man?

Malthus said 200 years ago the world would starve because it was incapable of producing enough food for a growing population. Ehrlich said much the same thing in 35 years ago when he predicted mass starvation by the mid 80s.

Down deep, it is the hatred of man that drives a lot of the insanity. The followers of consensus do so because they believe there is consensus.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/hjenkins/?id=11001 0947

The man haters and more overtly, the USA haters are trying to sneak in the back door to bring down this country because the front door is guarded. The idiots who follow them blindly because of "consensus" do so unwittingly.


Coal is Evil
Mother Gaia has worked hard over millions of years to lock the coal away under ground. Efforts to rape the land and release the coal will damage the world and anger Gaia. The Chinese have abandoned the peaceful collective life and now use the tools of capitalism to fuel their industry in an effort to satisfy the greed machine in America. Gaia will punish the Chinese as She will surely punish America.

Our only hope is to institute a massive breeding program to bring back the Buffalo. Large herds of Buffalo would provide sustenance for the people and fuel in the form of Buffalo chips. Mother Gaia would be pleased to see her children once again living in harmony with nature. Surely all that believe wind and solar power and other alternatives will be sufficient to supply our energy needs will also buy into this load of bullsh*t.

Brought to you by The Buffalo Breeders of America and The Cowpie Packers Union. Our motto 'Prosper With Poop'.

Is this issue splitting the GOP?
Global Warming Starts to Divide G.O.P. Contenders
Is this issue splitting the GOP?

NYT-While many conservative commentators and editorialists have mocked concerns about climate change, a different reality is emerging among Republican presidential contenders. It is a near-unanimous recognition among the leaders of the threat posed by global warming.

Within that camp, however, sharp divisions are developing. Senator John McCain of Arizona is calling for capping gas emissions linked to warming and higher fuel economy standards. Others, including Rudolph W. Giuliani and Mitt Romney, are refraining from advocating such limits and are instead emphasizing a push toward clean coal and other alternative energy sources.

All agree that nuclear power should be greatly expanded.

The debate has taken an intriguing twist. Two candidates appealing to religious conservatives, former Gov. Mike Huckabee of Arkansas and Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas, call for strong actions to ease the effects of people on the climate, at times casting the effort in spiritual terms just as some evangelical groups have taken up the cause.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/global-warming-sta rts-to-divide-gop-contenders


Global Idiots...
I want to thank all those who have provided my golden years with so much fun because of their environmental disaster warnings. I get to laugh and stick pins in the pompous and terminally serious folks who act like my favorite "sky is falling" chicken, spinning frantically in circles of ever decreasing usefulness.

A Hot Subject?
Innis, advocate of the poor, has touched my ticked off nerve -- Algore, and his putrid kind. Exchanging his pollution for a carbon credit - typical elitism. And how many among the very rich would do the same (as would our Hollywood idols))? If he is polluting, he is polluting and must exchange that for no pollution. Say it that way, do not let those foul mouthed people off the hook! Back to the first grade Algore. Innis, you didn't say much about nuclear power. Chesapeake Energy Corp, which does natural gas, may have played dirty tricks to hold down development of coal power but I couldn't find that it had committed crimes. Power transmission lines run all over the US so why not also use that land for wind turbines? Wind turbines at Ted Kennedy's mansion.

TruLib, as always, LMAO @ You
On a serious note,I happen to reside in Maryland which recently went through a major increase in electric rate increase (too long to get into) but my bills doubled. Just this morning I heard on the news that because the state has not allowed additional power plants or service lines put in place in years, we can expect blackouts to occur in the near future. Yet we continue to keep the same management in the statehouse, so how can one complain?

We've been allowing this craziness to grow into what is beginning to feel like a catastrophy without solution other than a citizenry driven to a violent reaction brought on by total frustration. It's not a nice picture.

circular logic absurdity
tahssard's logic is typical of the left in all areas. Regarding GW he says "the consequences are unpredictable and complicated". And how does he know? Because a computer model predicted it!

You've got to love a theory that cannot be disputed because, no matter what happens, it was predicted to be unpredictable.

This was a great article, though.

tahssard: If you repeat a lie...?
More left-wing anti-intellectualism: the left believes in the validity of “science by consensus of opinion” as replacement for the scientific method. The “scientific method” is apparently invalid because of its hierarchical, patriarchal nature & its reliance on “fact.” The left fervently believes in anthropogenic global warming caused by man -generated “greenhouse gases” while ignoring fluctuations in “solar luminosity” in the UV spectrum associated w/ “black spot” activity. Currently, the Martian ice caps are also receding. Apparently those evil Republicans have secretly found an inexpensive way of transporting their SUVs to Mars. The left believes global warming contributed to the creation of Hurricane Katrina, yet the 2006 Hurricane season was the tamest in the last 40 plus years. The left believes that homosexuality has a genetic basis w/o scientific evidence (apparently Darwin was wrong,) despite the fact that the phenomenon could be explained via the concept of “Congenital Sexual Dyslexia.” The left believes that “gender is a social construct” in direct contradiction of scientific evidence. Lastly, the left’s fundamental anti-intellectualism can be summed up by the following: Marxism as an economic model is an abject failure, yet the modern left actively employs Marxism as a tool of social engineering. When left-wing ideology departs from scientific fact, said ideology generally wins.

It is ironic that you paraphrased another socialist of a nationalistic variety, Dr. Joseph Goebbels.


Ron on energy & Gorebal warming
The Robert Emmett Ginna Nuclear Power Station in Rochester, New York went from groundbreaking to online generation in 42 months. Because of excessive governmental interference (paperwork), plants built after that took ten years to build.

Sea ice contracts when it melts, causing a lowering of sea level. This makes room for water from glacial melting.

When glaciers melt, much of the water soaks into and thaws the ground underneath where the glacier had been, causing the long-dormant seeds to sprout. Plants inhale CO2 and exhale oxygen, which we breathe. Much of the water is evaporated into the atmosphere where winds distribute it evenly around the world, providing worldwide normal rainfall, even in previous drought areas.

The more glacial melting there is; the more normal rainfall we will have; the more plants will grow to inhale CO2. Will we have to increase our CO2 production to provide for all the trillions of new plants?

Algore pays himself for the "carbon offsets" he buys. He owns the company. Offsets don't result in a reduction in his use of fossil fuels in his jet plane, cars, and energy-wasting houses.

Imagine, eighty jet planes flying to Bali; 80% of them flying to another island to park, then back to Bali to pick up the pasengers, then home. That is a heck of a lot of fossil fuel used, to rant about not using fossil fuel.

We would have many of these alternate fuels and processes if, over the last sixty years, government hadn't taxed away half the operating capitol from the companies that could have developed them.

I am doomed
I live within 5 miles of three coal fired energy producers and abot ten miles of a nuclear plant.We have enough oil in the U.S. to last over fifty years but the loonies won't let us drill for it.

It's an emergency
Something must be done immediately! Something that involves large amounts of money. It must be done soon--before a cooling cycle begins--so that the cooling can be attributed to the vast amounts of money spent, and so that vast amounts of money will continue to be spent.
Bottom line: someone's gonna get very rich.

Meanwhile, individual practices of conservation and earth stewardship won't be important because the government's taking care of it by paying and collecting large amounts of money.

johninoregon: Really?
johninoregon writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 1:32 AM
Holes in the argument
"Does the EIA analysis factor in the vast potential for greater efficiency in our use of electricity?"

Really? That would require the development of a “room-temperature” semi-conductor (upwards of 20% all electricity generated is lost during distribution due heat produced during transmission) which currently doesn’t exist. Humanities majors et all: with respect to energy generation, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A “FREE LUNCH” , i.e., “green power.” Speaking as an Research Engineer & Scientist, there is not enough U.S. farmland to grow that much soy, corn, sugar cane, etc. to make enough ethanol. Ethanol is also very inefficient as an internal combustion fuel. Even “fuel cells” will generate some kind of pollution/greenhouse gas. Cold fusion doesn’t work. I know: one of the core values of the international socialists that comprise the Democrat leadership is the concept of the “proletariat” making all of the sacrifices.


“WIND FARMS REQUIRE SUBSIDIES AND VAST STRETCHES OF LAND.”

Actually, the problem is with a) enlightened leftists like Ted Kennedy, scion of the Democratic Party, who stopped one of the most productive “Wind Farms” from being built near Long Island Sound because it would have detracted from his wonderful Ocean views while on his yacht w/ the rest of the enlightened left-wing elite, and b) State legislatures like the MA legislature who have been successfully lobbied by their respective public electrical utilities to establish financial disincentives for private businesses & citizens installing wind machines.

Spare us your bromides and unilateral expectations. You can’t LEGISLATE technical innovation. You’re spending too much time in the Peoples Republic of Oregon. The rest of us live in reality.

Solution
I see lots of problems being described in these responses, but what is the solution? How did the ecos get so much power to influence governmental decisions? If we throw the oafs who are the stumbling blocks to additional energy creation out of office, will we get an improved crop of them? Don't they lie to get into office, and then bow to the lobbies when they get there? Frustrating, to say the least!

More evidence of the lie each day....
Every day, more and more evidence comes out that PROVES, beyond any and all doubt, that the "manmade global warming" myth is NOTHING but a vast scheme by fascist, America-hating leftists (but I repeat myself) to steal the wealth of the United States.

For example, leading up to the "it's all America's fault that the Earth is falling into the sun" meeting, Chine -- which, by the way, is not the world's leading producer of "greenhouse gases" -- has said that the focus of this meeting should be how many trillions of dollars the United States should be forced to give China so we can build all kinds of new power plants for them.

Don't buy the garbage. While kooky commies feebly try to say that anyone who exposes the FACTS about the "manmade global warming" lie is paid off by the oil companies, the IRREFUTABLE, UNDENIABLE, and DEMONSTRABLE fact of the matter is that every single "scientist" that thinks we're falling into the sun because we're exhaling is bought off by them. More than $22 BILLION was spent by the US government last year alone on "manmade global warming" research. Companies like GE, BP, and DuPont, all of which hope to make BILLIONS, if not TRILLIONS, off the AGW legislation, have spent millions paying off our legislators (GE's $24 million lobbying budget is larger than the lobbying budget of the 3 largest American oil companies COMBINED!). In fact, none other than ENRON was the world's leading advocate of AGW legislation!

The FACT of the matter is the AGW "debate" is a sham. Period! End of sentence!

I Will Believe the "Greens" Care When,
I will believe that the "greens" actually care when they advocate the use of clean, inexpensive nuclear power on its merits instead of babbling scare stories about Three Mile Island (where nothing happened except that the safety systems were proven to work), and Chernobyl (which has no relationship whatsoever to a modern, western system).

impact
Ever read Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six?

Er, can't type today:
"Chine -- which, by the way, is not the world's leading producer of "greenhouse gases" -- ..."

Was SUPPOSED to read:

"CHINA -- which, by the way, is NOW the world's leading producer of "greenhouse gases" -- ..."

WHEN GOVERNMENT MEDDLES IN MARKETS

.....The Eco-nuts who now seem to control domestic policy through government and the mindless masses remind me of the medieval alchemists who tried to turn lead into gold or create a perpetual motion machine ...

.....Now the Green goons want us to replace our treasure of fossil fuels (mainly coal) with tinker toys and flowery dreams of running the country on water, air and sun ...

.....This is mass hysteria created by loony-toons and is impervious to logic or scientific evidence ...ie: the earth is in a warming cycle ...CO2 levels are rising ...ergo CO2 is responsible for Global Warming ...this is false logic on a par with the rooster who thinks it makes the sun rise by crowing ...

.....Trulib ...Thanks for the laugh ...your post makes more sense than anything Albore or our crooks in Washington have been saying ...btw: how can I get into the Cow Pie Packers Union? .....COLOSSUS

Environmentalists
seem to be running the show in everything. They have caused more death and destruction than anything else in this country.
They are part of the reason forest fires get out of control, and burn thousands and thousands of acres.They helped caused the panic in Ga. over billions of gallons of water being drained from the lake that served water to that state, and almost caused them to run totally out of water. We have more oil in the United States than Saudi Arabia, but the enviros fight us drilling for it, or even getting to the oil shale in places like Utah. They yell about the fence along our borders, citing disruption of animals.
They yelled about DDT, and got it banned, even in Africa, causing millions to die of Maleria, now an orginization is begging for money for nets, to save people.
I'm sick of governments bowing to these people.
Something must be done, some action taken againt these envionmental nuts, and lobbiests.

More efficient use?
We are going to grow the population by 1/3 due to the immigration proposals in Congress to raise the quota from 1 million a year to 3.7 to 5 million a year (then during the 20 years they will have children adding to the 67 to 100 million they propose. So, while we certainly need efficiency, there is no way that the estimate is high for future need. If anything, it is low.

Also, on wind farms
quote:
For a 1,000 megawatt power plant, a coal plant needs 1,950 acres, a nuclear plant 1,700 and a wind farm, 192,000 acres. Now, if that is "farm land," then you can farm around the base or if it is grazing land you can graze around the base. However, for many, they don't like the view and they don't want them in their back yard and they don't want the state filled with them.

We have 200 years to 400 years of oil in oil shales that is recoverable. Yes, it will be expensive and not lower fuel costs significantly but, 200 years is a long time (at current demand) to be independent of foreign oil. In 2012, we will see if the solar cycle reversal starts a cooling trend. If it does, much of the demand for help with global warming will end.

Energy may be a small problem however, if we don't get our debt under control and stop shipping manufacturing, high tech, R&D, and now even financial service jobs overseas.

Alaska is the Answer
And I am not talking about Anwar. We need to make the people of a state participants in the rewards of allowing oil, gas and coal exploration and recovery. If the inhabitants of a state recd a percentage of the revenue generated from the natural resources of their state - they would be a lot more interested in approving the "mining" of these assets. We have all the resources that we need to be energy independent. The Natural Gas off our shorelines - alone - could solve the energy problem of our cars - and without much expense to convert. Scientists have solved the problem of storage of this gas with a renewable resource - corn cobs. And Automobile engines will run on this gas without modification other than installing the fuel system - a win/win for everyone!

Big article
today in our local paper about the wonderfulness of th fact utilities will have to produce energy by alternative fuel by a certain percentage in a few years. No discussion of the thousand of acres and thousands upon thousands of windmills needed to make this possible. There was a gleeful referance to the fact Michigan is surrounded by the Great Lakes and has so much accessible wind power. Of course, not only did the article fail to mention the hurrendous number of windmiles needed neither did they mention the impact of windmills in a state needing the tourism the lakes provide.

Alternative energy
Interesting article. Couldn't help noticing that the comparisons were always between coal and wind. This completely overlooks the fact that solar can take a house almost completely off the grid for most of the time. I have a number of friends who live on solar power with no problem at all. It's already paid for itself many times over. They run everything that we all have in our homes, and their electricity is unlimited and free.
I agree we need to use everything available, but we also have to take the environment into consideration with everything that we do. If every single family home in America received their electricity from solar, that would have an enormously positive impact on the environment as well as the family finances, and it is totally do able....right now. All it would take is a conscious effort by the government to re-educate and provide incentives to the consumer.


re: Demosthenes post at 9:48 AM
Sorry, but don't call it the People's Republic of Oregon. It's the People's Republic of Portland. The fact is the whole state is about as red as it gets with the exception of Portland which is so blue it's red. Also, the Portland metro area contains just over half the population of the state. You'd do the country and the State of Oregon a huge favor is you could figure out a way to quietly and efficiently push that city in the ocean along with most of it's population. Just my opinion of the Rose City from my point of view in the Cherry City. After all, those Rose City dorks have been sending us their surplus libs for decades.

Solar is ok in the desert
but it's no good to me. I'm not cutting down dozens of trees so my roof is exposed to he sun.

I believe you already get tax breaks for solar, wind, biomass, and clean-coal technology from Bush's 2005 Energy Policy Law.

Some communities are thinkng of, or have instituted, tax breaks for alternative fuel use on the local level. Oakland, CA, is one.

It Is A Sickness
Reading this trash, called an article, is tatamount to self flagellation. We are hopelessly controlled by conservation idiots and we have no recourse--they can cripple our economy, take money from our pockets for higher energy costs, and spew any nonsense they desire and we can do nothing. What a sorry state of affairs we are now wallowing in. Who is in charge, we the people or sloven tree huggers that smoke pot, contemplate their navel, spout Marxist doctrine and shave bi-annually? We are weak, we elect weak people, and we get what we deserve. It would serve us right if we lost all we have built to those we abhor for the privilege to do nothing but cry about our wanton frustration with our chosen cowardice to assert our citizenship.

The sad truth is...
That Roy hasn't done his homework. Nanosolar up the road from me in Silicon Valley cracked the cost problem for photovoltaics a few years ago. They print solar cells for about $1K/kw peak generating capacity. They're also well into the construction of their first big production facility that is scheduled to be able to produce photovoltaic cells with a aggregate generating capacity of 430 mw annually.

Alternative Energy
Nick in Austin is on the right track. Our self-serving, incompetent politicians consider their own re-election more important than properly promoting the welfare of the nation, aided and abetted by the self-serving , incompetent do-gooders (are you there, Al Gore?), and supported by ethically pusillanimous "scientists" who are in thrall to the politicians for grant money.

The correct and proper answer is nuclear power. If France gets 75 - 80% of its energy from nuclear power and has used it without an accident for three decades, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot do the same, This enhanced capability of providing our country with the energy it needs and will so sorely need in the future will also go a long way toward simplifying portions of our foreign policy.

Regarding refinery capacity, build additional refineries on closed military bases (federal property) in order to quickly quash argument and law suits.

Alternative energy works
There was a time when gasoline was the alternative energy, it replaced coal and water as power sources; and there might be a time when gasoline and coal are replaced by a different alternative. Possibly with solar, or wind, or maybe something we don't even know is an option right now.

The key difference is we went to gasoline because it was the more attractive choice - not because of government mandates. Real progress will be made by individuals and companies that are in this for a profit. I've got no problem with a few government funded research grants, but I firmly believe that government slows progress.

jac
Solar will only work in a few places and it is most definitily not cost effective unless you are in the middle of the desert. The average price of electricity will have to triple and the subsidies for solar through tax breaks maintained in order for it to be cost effective.

If you have people who can generate ALL of thier needs from solar then they obviously live without air conditioning or electric heat (heat pump).

Coal is Bad Policy
Conventional coal-burning power plants are the least efficient, and emit the most carbon dioxide, of the available technologies for power generation.

The simple fact is that coal-burning plants convert about 25 percent of the fuel to electricity. Also, coal has a very low hydrogen content and high carbon content. Therefore, more carbon dioxide enters the atmosphere.

In contrast, a natural gas-fired combined cycle plant converts at least 60 to 75 percent of the fuel burned to electricity. And, less of the emissions are carbon dioxide because natural gas has more hydrogen and less carbon than coal.

There is a generating process to gasify coal, sequester the carbon dioxide, and burn the hydrogen, that is more efficient and less polluting in terms of carbon dioxide. However, these plants are more expensive to build.

To continue to sanction conventional coal plants is bad policy.

Vic
Not true. People can and do generate all their needs from solar, and live with air conditioning and heating. A comforatable, zero energy home is a reality. Typically, these consume just a bit of power in the winter, and generate excess power in the summer.

As to Innis' assertions, I disagree completely.

Alternative energy will steadily increase in market share because oil prices have finally increased enough to make them viable. Venture capital is pouring into these ventures. Some have said, Follow the Money. In this case, that is excellent advice.

If these were not viable, no venture capital would flow.

The current expectation is that wind power will contribute a significant amount, especially as low-wind technology improves. We now have a wind assessment from the Dept of Energy, for the entire U.S. There is sufficient wind to provide all our electricity needs.

Wave power will also make significant contributions.

The dumbest thing we can do is to build more nuclear plants. The toxic radioactive by-products last for thousands of years. France, in their typical fashion, does not care about this and are leaving a massive toxic legacy for future generations to deal with.

Most Miss the Real Opportunity and Point
Our PRIMARY GOAL should be energy independence. This will reduce or eliminate the need for wars for oil and significantly reduce the desire to nation build as the left now charges.

Our economy right now is an oil economy. Oil is also the PRIMARY financing agent of terrorism and nations that support it. Who do we buy most of our oil from and is this not tantemount to supporting terrorism? So what is the FASTEST way to remove ourselves from the this Catch 22 to national security?? No, its not to elect liberals to run our nation. That would in fact make things much worse is some respects.

We have at least 20 years of DOMESTIC oil and gas reserves that we are not allowed to exploit because of POLITICS. If we had in ernest explored these now taboo reserves (ANWR, FLA coast, CA coast, oil shales and gas reserves in Utah), we could have replaced much if not all of our current imported quantities of oil and liquified NG. But now we have to fight wars to import our oil 12000 miles across the world's most ecologically sensitive regions (our ocean's). Really makes a lot of sense!!!!

We should be using OUR RESERVES WHILE WE ARE DEVELOPING ALTERNATIVES. Why is this NOT HAPPENING?!

Alternative Energy Cost Comparisons
Iceland generates the majority of its power from geothermal.

Determining the cost of power is difficult. It would cost a lot more to heat your home in Seattle using solar power then it would in the New Mexico desert. Coal is cheap in West Virginia, but if you want to use it in Washington State you have transportation costs to consider. The price of coal, natural gas, and uranium vary, and then you have changing and uncertain regulatory costs. Does your coal plant use the local product or will you have to ship in more expensive low-sulphur coal? Schwartzeneggar may wake up tommorrow and slap a massive tax on California coal plants, but if Harry Reid succesfully kills Yucca Mountain, nuke costs go up.

Hydroelectric power is seen by many as "green" but it is also the most dangerous way of producing power, with 230,000 people killed when one dam failed in 1975 in China.

Then there are the indirect costs. Ethanol was touted as a gasoline replacement, but using corn for fuel caused food prices to skyrocket. How do you account for that in the equation?

Nuclear costs are front-end loaded, because it costs a lot to build a plant, but then it's cheaper to run so you have to amortise the costs over an expected plant life. The problem is that many plants never reached the 40-year mark before being shut down for political or economic reasons. Other plants may get their operating licenses extended indefinitely.

All that being said,
OECD electricity generating cost projections for 2010 on - 5% discount rate

.......nuclear coal gas
Finland 2.76 3.64 -
France 2.54 3.33 3.92
Germany 2.86 3.52 4.90
Switzerland 2.88 - 4.36
Netherlands 3.58 - 6.04
Czech Rep 2.30 2.94 4.97
Slovakia 3.13 4.78 5.59
Romania 3.06 4.55 -
Japan 4.80 4.95 5.21
Korea 2.34 2.16 4.65
USA 3.01 2.71 4.67
Canada 2.60 3.11 4.00
US 2003 cents/kWh, Discount rate 5%, 40 year lifetime, 85% load factor.
Source: OECD/IEA NEA 2005.

Texn Engneer
Wrong, there is only one place in the country where I have seen solar become cost competitive and that was in Southern California during their massive energy crisis a few years ago. It became competitive because the rates were over 15 cents a kw plus there were massive penalty factors that raised the bill if you used over your allotment of electricity. I had friends in the bay area at the time that were paying bills of 2500 per month then without using air conditioning. (My bills at the time were running 200 per moth with air conditioning). And roof top solar applications will not carry household loads that include a running heat pump on their own. You would have to have a much bigger array than will fit on the house and the cost will be even higher than that of the “competitive application”.

If solar was such a good deal everybody in the country would have their houses covered with solar panels. Especially since the government will give you massive tax breaks for it. And you don’t know jack about nuclear power. As I posted earlier this morning the spent fuel become less radioactive after 300 years than the original Uranium.

As for toxicity, what do you think is going to be done with all of those rare earths and heavy metals contained in these solar cells that you wish to put on top of all the houses? The last time I checked, the half-life of these items was infinity.

Nuclear solves nuclear problems
Check Scientific American, December 2005 for the article "Smarter Use of Nuclear Waste." New fast-neutron reactors could extract much more energy from recycled nuclear fuel, minimize the risk of weapons proliferation, and markedly reduce the time nuclear waste must be isolated.

This approach can greatly reduce the downsides of nuclear power production while also reducing the requirements for long-term storage of nuclear waste products.

The anti-nuke arguments go away and electricity comes out. Talk about a win-win!

tahssard
Tahssard says:

the truth is the computer models have been found to be wrong yes BUT THEY UNDERESTIMATE not overestimate the problem!

I don't know what data you have been reviewing. The models show that the average temperature goes up every year. That has not happened. The average temperature is lower now than in 1998. The predictions made by Hansen, et al back in 1988 have not come true. The prediction then was that temperature would be up several degrees by now, and that sea level would be up a foot. Not only has that not happened, but it is not even close. Each IPCC report has lowered the prediction of future temperature and sea rise because the scientists realize that warming is not happening according to the early predictions. Take a look at recent estimates of average temperature. (You should also be aware that the average temperature estimates themselves are being shown to be bogus. You also claim that Exxon is paying people who disagree with the global warming hysteria. What proof do you have? We do know that hundreds of millions of government funded dollars are being spent by the proponents. Huge amounts are also being spent to push the global warming agenda by rent-seekers such as Al Gore (who works for a venture capital company that funds "green" enterprises), GE, and Duke Power.

THE SAME ONES WHO
demand we not use fossil fuels are stopping all the alternate forms....

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/ other/12/05/1205wind.html

it's an environmental group sueing to halt a wind farm.


Peter Grynch
Actually right now if Harry Reid permanently killed Yucca Mountain costs would go down. This sounds crazy but remember the government is involved. The Nuclear utilities have been paying the government billions over the past several decades for Yucca Mountain (yeah nuclear is subsidized alright). If it were to be permanently killed, the government would have to pay them back and quit charging the annual fees. That is probably why the government hasn’t given up on the project yet (and never will). They would have to pay the utilities billions.

The utilities actually gave up on Yucca long ago and I'll leave it to you to figure out what they are doing with the fuel now.

You know it is really funny. When I first went in to nuclear power over 30 years ago with fuel, the key word was leased. We did not own the fuel; it was leased from someone who was licensed to manufacture it at the time. The intent was to ship the stuff back for reprocessing to remove the small amounts of U-235 and Pu-240 that would be left in the elements. Jimmy the idiot put paid to that plan.

His rational for shutting down the reprocessing was because of potential nuclear proliferation issues. What a joke. The real reason was that the Lamocrats had an anti-nuke platform then, as well as now, and they saw this as one more way to shut them all down. Also, the fast breeder reactor project went at the same time because it was dependent on reprocessing.

Alternative Energy
True enough, we need a mix of energy resources to meet our future demands. However, we also need to find ways to utilize the heat we use to generate electricity more efficiently. The burning of fossil fuels, coal, petroleum products, etc,. releases more energy into the air than electricity produced. This waste spirals down all the way down to the way we prepare our foods. The automobile is a great example of this kind of waste. The hot exhaust, the catalytic converter, the radiator and even the heat that builds on the engine block. This is all wasted energy and we need to learn how to use it more efficiently. Is it even possible, you bet it is. Our problem is that we still think with outdated mindsets. Even environmentalists still think this way with their belief that wind and solar energy are the answer. As proof of this, go out to your cars and start them up. Let them run for a bit then check under the hood and feel the warmth. Run your hand close to the engine block and see how hot it is. This is all wasted energy that is being thrown away and we think nothing of it. But are there systems out there that can utilize this wasted energy? Yes there are, but we need to do the work necessary to find them. I found one years ago and I wasn't even looking.

Hungary people use every scrape to feed there families, wasting nothing. As stewards of this world we need to think the same way and learn not to waste anything.

If Gore is for it, I'M AGAINST
I am sick of you whinny baby republicans whose claim to fame is being haters of anything that is not RIGHT WING GUNS, GOD AND WAR. I am all for guns and God, not so much war BUT FOR GOD SAKES, alternative energy is viable: wind, solar, fuel cell, nuke energy, alternative fuels, more efficient cars and appliances.......... ITS NOT ONE THING. The good news is when gas cost $20/gal or you just cant get it at all, you will be glad you have your electric hydrogen car.

All the whining about "The Left is not for Iraq and the war, they don't want us to win..." BULL, but than the right should show leadership and get on board with energy and climate change. You all are even more just NAY SAYERS for the fun of it with no ideas. America should be the leader in technology. If we can get man to the Moon we can come up with new, more efficient and cleaner energy, and should.

The sooner we can give the middle finger to Mideast OIL the better. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT OR IS YOUR HATE MORE POWERFUL THAN WHAT IS BEST FOR AMERICA?

Nick in Austin wrote:
"The reality of the situation is that nothing can grow forever."

I agree. Where I live the lie goes like this:

"if you're not making progress (growing) you're falling behind."

What rubbish. It's the same "fear factor" they push with global warming.


tahssard, the truth is
that man has always burned things for energy.

Nothing has changed except you don't have to clean the klinkers out of your coal fired furnace, or ashes out of your fireplace. The power companies do it for you. CO2 is not the problem.

fantasywriter
I suggest you google the term "carnot cycle" and check out some books from the library on thermodynamics. ALL heat engines must reject heat as a function of producing power. Some are more efficient than others, but they all must reject heat. This is why perpetual motion machines can never work.

Check out these simple explanations of the 2nd law of thermo.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.ht ml

Vic
and you call me wrong?

Plutonium - a byproduct of nuclear fission - is made safe how, exactly? And its half-life is how long? And how about the other toxic, incredibly long-lasting byproducts? The real environmental crime is nuclear fission. Our descendents for many, many generations will be cursing us, and with good reason.

There is a reason that nuclear fuel reprocessing is not done on mass scale in the US. We are therefore storing spent fuel at the nuclear power plants.

And, nobody you know does solar. I am sorry for you. Solar for homes and businesses and government buildings are all over in Southern California.

Parking lots at many public universities have solar panels, these do double duty as shade for the cars and generate power when the sun shines.

They are not much as a financial investment, but then, in my opinion it is far better for our government to spend the money in this manner than on many of the ridiculous, wasteful, and counter-productive social programs.

see http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/enn.cfm
for facts on the many, many advances in renewable energy and energy efficiency. Not fantasy, not conjecture, but real events. Including zero-energy homes.


Wow! What a bastion of misinformation!!
The misinformations here are too numerous to expound upon so let me just address 2 of the most grevious:

1) CFLs producing mercury misinformation. Roy says CFL's produce more electricity than coal - NOT TRUE. Currently the coal burned to produce electricity for the life of 1 incandescent bulb releases far more (10x ?) mercury into THE AIR, than is contained in a single CFL that ends up in an isolated landfill.

2) Incapabilities of all alternatives misinformation. The truth is that there are 3 alternative energy sources can economically compete with coal. Wind - which isn't reliable enough, nuclear - which is too regulated and slow to startup, and CSP - which has no downsides (even generates electricity through the night).

Ausra has developed the technology to make CSP as cheap as $0.08/kWh (which is what coal costs). CSP stands for Concentrated Solar Power - but uses the sun's heat (not light) to heat fluid that drives a turbine even throughout the night. It does this by storing part of the heated fluid (which also decreases turbine requirements resulting in lower costs).

Currently CSP produces electricity in the Mojave in the newer CSP farms at $0.13/kWh so $0.08/kWh is only capable with these new advancements. There are not special materials required for these plants.

Don't confuse CSP with Solar PV which is far more popular and costs a whopping $0.30/kWh. They're not even similar technologies.

CSP has been poopoo'ed and ignored by the renewable energy industry because it renders all the other technologies obsolete.

Vice President Gore for example accused Ausra (CSP company) of "assasinating" the competition. He meant this in a negative way. That idiot would prefer to spread alternative energy funds among all his various investments.

92x92 mi of CSP can power the US
92 miles x 92 miles of CSP farms can power the US, and AT RATES COMPARABLE TO COAL. Don't believe me? Google Ausra and see what they're doing in the Mojave Desert.

So why are we sending all our money to Saudis? All that money should stay in our economy, and would if people like Roy would spend more time investigating CSP and less time defending his interests or justifying his prejudices.

Texn Engineer
Sequestering CO2 is estimated to cost about $0.03/kWh. That makes it more expensive than what CSP is expected to produce.

It sounds like you are a fan of PV Solar panels. While an excellent technology, it is completely unviable as a replacement technology on a mass scale unless they can solve the solar grade material bottleneck problem. The cost of solar has not decreased in 5 years. It was around $4/Watt 5 years ago when I was in the industry. It still is. I don't see that changing - demand will drive up the cost at the same rate as breakthroughs drive down the rate. At that rate it will never cost less than $30/kWh (real cost without subsidies).

I keep hoping a cheap efficient CVD method on glass or some substrate will change that dynamic, but I don't see that happening for at least 15 years. Even then I consider it a gamble. Compare that to CSP thermal which is already at $0.13/kWh, and expected to be cost competitive with coal given the newer CSP designs (one-fluid systems, thermal storage to offload daytime turbine needs, etc).

David Austin
exactly! Ausra uses the linear Fresnel lens reflecting surface. These guys have a seriously *better mousetrap*.




No, I am not a fan of PV
where PV = photovoltaics. The un-subsidized financial payback is on the order of 20 to 30 years. Also, the cradle-to-grave energy analysis is awful: it takes far too much energy to make the PV cells compared to the tiny amount of electricity that is generated over the next 20 to 30 years.

But, I AM a big proponent of CSP, and a few other alternative technologies.

The Saudis have done us a huge favor by finally raising the price of oil so that these alternatives now enjoy a surge in interest, research, investment, and commercialization.

It is no coincidence that the British breakthrough in artificial photosynthesis, that produces hydrogen from water with sunlight as the energy source, came just before our record oil prices. The oil age is fading.


Vic
Not to promote Solar PV (because I think it steals money and publicity from CSP Thermal which is the only truly viable grid-level renewable imho) but your wrong about PV toxicity. Solar PV cells are 99.99% made of silicon (the 2nd most abundant element of the universe, and what all glass is made of) and trace amounts of phosphorus and boron locked in the silicon matrix (both in lower concentrations than is in the windows of your house).

If there is any toxicity from Solar PV it's in the manufacturing process, and even then it's less than coal when averaged out over the life of the solar cell.

Texn Engneer
OK Pu has a lon half life but nowhere near as long as infinity that all that sloar waste will have. And Jimmy the idiot's reason for stopping reprocessing was "proliferation fears". What bogus cr*p. There is no more fear of proliferation from terrorists and rogue nations getting spent fuel than there is from them getting it from the Savanna River project. The reason we are not reprocesing all over the country is POLITICAL not scientific.

And Southern CA is the ONLY place that solar has been attempted on any kind of scale for homeowners. That is because it has a favorable climate, a State subsidy, a federal subsidy, and at the time, the highest utility rates in the country, if not the world. Oh you lucky people who still live in CA.

Texn Engineer
Glad to hear you're in the know. Seems everybody thinks solar cells when you mention solar power, despite the fact that already 90% of the solar power on the grid comes from CSP farms because solar cells are so economically and logistically nonviable.

Renewable energy is neck deep in corruption. I'm green-minded and it drives me crazy. All the politicians and actors who say they're for it are so full of baloney. More damage to the cause has been done by them by obfuscating the issue and promoting futureless technologies than has been done by all the anti-renewable people combined.

It's no wonder pundits, like this "Roy Innis" character feel so biased against it. It's extremely hard to sift through all the bull. If I see another chart where our future power needs are divided evenly among all the different renewable technologies I'm going postal. Al Gore is the worst when it comes to that practice. Now he runs a "renewables investment firm" and he trash talks anyone (or any company) who points out the futility of most his investments.

Vic - Solar Waste?
please define what you mean by solar waste.

And *not infinity* is an interesting yardstick for accepting toxic radioactive byproducts. I think that few people will accept that yardstick. I certainly do not.

As for solar power in the sunny southwest, yes, that is a given. Where else do you propose we build such systems? A quick glance at a solar incidence map shows very little incentive to build solar-powered systems in the rainy areas of the country. Would you prefer we in the sunny southwest do nothing? Perhaps just feed ourselves off the national grid?

Solar power makes sense where the sun shines, just as wind-power makes sense where the wind blows, and wave-power makes sense where the waves roll.

I am an engineer. We deal in reality.

Political reasons block or limit many things that engineers can easily do, and not just nuclear fuel reprocessing. We can easily have cars that achieve 100 miles per gallon, as just one example. We can also have pure, clean water in abundance around the entire globe.

It is a good thing, in my view, that nuclear reprocessing is not done. The politicians (for once) realized that too much mischief and serious harm could result.

President Carter had many faults, but on this one he was absolutely right. Plutonium is not something to ever make a mistake with - or, as we said in the 60's:

One nuclear bomb can ruin your entire day.




The march of lame alternatives
Everybody has their favorite alternative energy source. Biofuels; wind power; concentrated solar; geothermal; ocean gradients; I even read one site dedicated to some sort of Tesra electricy-out-of-the-air scheme.

Energy sources need to more than merely technologically feasible; they have to be safe, plentiful, scalable, transportable, flexible, and economically attractive. That's why none of the alternatives I named above are ever going to generate more than a tiny fraction of our energy. There are concentrated solar plants that are close to being competitive, but they're only viable where the sun shines brightest; too bad for Pittsburgh or Boston, eh?

If you want to know what alternatives are actually, commercially attractive, watch where the big players start investing their money. And guess what? The big players have DECADES AGO decided on chemical fuel cells and nuclear power -- without any government help other than the R&D deduction from their corporate taxes.

Anybody who talks about the other alternatives is playing "what if" games in their head, and living in a fantasy world. If biofuels had a likely future, they would not need government subsidies. If solar power had large-scale commercial potential, we'd have dozens of operating solar power stations by now -- the technology is at least 4 decades old. The money isn't there because the engineering problems are too large; solar energy is too difuse, wind energy is too diffuse, biofuels are too diffuse (distilling ethanol from corn is a net energy loss), geothermal is too limited, etc.

You can always tell the clueless from the sorts of alternates they propose. They haven't a clue what it takes to bring a large-scale power source to market.

Apparently engineers aren't infallible
Texn Engneer is touting the potential mischief from nuclear fuel reprocessing. This sounds like ignorance to me. No, Texn, President Carter wasn't thinking clearly when he stopped nuclear reprocessing, any more than he was when he declared the state of Israel a terrorist state.

It's not all that difficult an engineering project to separate U235 or plutonium out of spent nuclear fuel, you say: but dozens of tin-pot dictators have been trying to obtain bomb-grade materials for decades from nuclear plants around the globe. How many have succeeded, hmmmmmm? That's right... ZERO. And they fail because it's NOT that simple, and the most likely result of their trying is a gaggle of idiotic engineering students with radiation poisoning and a glowing pile of garbage.

Meanwhile, the US Navy has been successfully processing spent nuclear fuel for at least 45 years, and somehow has managed to keep the Timmy McVeighs and Osama bin Ladens of the world from getting any.

Simple fact: nuclear power is not producing 45% to 65% of the US' electricity needs because a bunch of granola-addled Green activists decided they were going to make it too expensive, and because one relatively benign accident in Pennsylvania spooked all the insurance companies. Aside from the 7 layers of regulatory oversight, nuclear power plants cost less than coal-fired plants to build, and take roughly the same amount of time. And America's chicken-hearted retreat from nuclear power, which is being used successfully all over the world, is the STUPIDEST, most INSANE, COWARDLY, BRAINLESS, LAUGHABLE policy choices in history.

??????????????? KYOTO ??????????????
Stanford-Binet test measurements indicate that 50% (fifty percent) of test takers have Intelligent Quotients (IQ’s) less than 100 points. So be it to determine if the person your are encountering is a “Greeniac” (100 plus) or a “Greenidiotic” (100 minus)ask;

Simple front end question:
DID KYOTO ENDORCE KYOTO?

Expected responses are:

What’s a Kyoto?

Where is Kyoto?

I don’t know

I think so!

Readers are welcome to answer and respond!

TEXAS ENGR & AUSTIN

.....In the meantime ...while we are waiting for all this space age technology to come on line ...we are sitting on a 300 year supply of fossil fuels that we can't touch because corrupt politicians and a few eco-nuts are worried about ppm particulates and CO2 which has not been scientifically proven to cause Global Warming or even if Global Warming can be controlled BY MAN AT ALL ...

.....Let's use what we have available now because it is cheap, plentiful and efficient and when science catches up and the market takes over without having to be propped up by the Government then Capitalism will work its magic ...

....when I see 747's making cross country flights on solar panels I will say that the age of oil is over .....COLOSSUS

Texn Engneer
You deal in unreality. How can you advocate solar as an alternative fuel when it is feasible only in a few portions of the country and the electric rates must be 3 times the national average, along with massive subsidies?

There is no danger at all in reprocessing fuel and burying the waste encapsulated in glass. Like you, Jimmy Carter was wrong. I once remarked to a government inspector when he was ranting about terrorist stealing the spent fuel that as far as I was concerned they could steal all they could carry away. He wasn’t amused and neither was my boss but he got the point. Terrorists simply do not have the ability to steal spent fuel and do anything with it.

As for 100 mpg cars being done easily, LOL where are they all at? Do you belong to the conspiracy crowd who say that General Motors stifled the magic carburetor? If so who paid off the Japanese, Koreans, Germans, and the rest of the world? Oh, I know it was the Illuminati in a worldwide conspiracy.

You don’t sound like any Engineer I know. You sound like an eco-idiot pushing a pipe dream.

Inkling
careful now.

paraphrasing: Tin-pot dictators cannot make bomb-grade materials.

How right you are! Just as America's best and brightest made computers, the internet, oil refineries, and most of the good inventions in the world, etc and etc. Our nerds are just better than anyone else's. (I'm proud to be a nerd, by the way). (stealth, space program, etc and etc.)

I have traveled in many of those *tin-pot dictator* countries, and they can barely make water flow downhill. Most have not mastered the flush toilet. Most cannot build a simple windmill even where the wind blows all day. No wonder they cannot run a nuclear fuel system.

Your point about the US Navy makes my point: it requires that level of serious security and sober men with guns to protect that material. Obviously, that is not going to happen except in the military.

A legacy of highly toxic nuclear waste from power plants will haunt many, many generations. I am ashamed to be a part of the generation that built nuclear power plants, and you should be, too.

We knew better, and we could have and should have done better.

Re: Plutonium, nuclear waste, etc
Check Scientific American, December 2005 for the article "Smarter Use of Nuclear Waste." New fast-neutron reactors could extract much more energy from recycled nuclear fuel, minimize the risk of weapons proliferation, and markedly reduce the time nuclear waste must be isolated.

This technology greatly reduces the problems with nuke power and squeezes much more energy out of the fuel. It also drastically reduces both the volume and half-life of the waste.

This article is a must-read for energy alternatives.

Kyoto
The Kyoto treaty is nothing but welfare for the third world, according to Nature 22, even if the United States followed the accord to the letter the difference would be .004 degrees over one hundred years.

Vic
not an eco-idiot. Just a chemical engineer and attorney, with 3 decades experience world-wide with energy companies and alternative energy systems. My colleagues tell me I have the credentials to address these issues with some authority.

My guiding principles include financial viability, technical feasibility, and regulatory achievability.

The 100 mpg car is not a fantasy. And yes, I do know about the conspiracy world of 100 mpg carburetors, miracle fuels, and all the rest that GM supposedly has hidden away in their dungeons. You are free to research all those expired patents and make a business selling the gadgets. They are public domain now. (laughter)

I suggest you do an internet search for a French car, diesel-powered, with hybrid technology that recovers energy from braking. 100 mpg. Never placed into production.

As for advocating solar, how can you advocate hydroelectric when it is so prevalent in rainy, mountainous areas, but not our flat and dry, sunny southwest? Is it a crime for New Englanders to use water mills?

How about the Washington State area, where huge hydroelectric facilities generate power? We cannot do that in Southern California, so is that a crime?


Pollution
Two cars--One is electric, the other is gasoline. Which pollutes the most? Gasoline car is driven 10 miles to work daily. Electric car is driven 10 miles to work daily and then charged at night. The gasoline car sits idle at night. The electric source for charging the electric car is a coal fired electric power plant. What say you?

Warrior: They won't get it! :-)
.


king lib
maybe you should move from lib land to my neck of the woods-fly over country- 2.69 a gal and dropping

king lib
maybe you should move from lib land to my neck of the woods-fly over country- 2.69 a gal and dropping

Texn Engneer
Well I have 3 decades of experience in Nuclear power AND working for a public utility which was in business to sell electricity at the cheapest rate possible. Note that our residential rates were 0.07 per kw-hr not the 0.15 cent that CA gets and we have no penalty clauses for over use. We produced electricity at a cost of 0.013 cents / kw-hr when averaged over a 3 year cycle. When will your solar be capable of doing that? I too have been all over the world and I know all about 3rd world cesspools and tin pot dictators. Although I can not discuss anything in detail I can assure you that there are armed guards at the Nuclear units. Also, I would say that they do as good as or better a job than the military does guarding these kinds of things. (Some time when you get a chance ask someone in the Air Force about the general’s daughter who got on board an armed B-52 at Warner Robins and trashed the aircraft. This was around armed military guards.

In any case, you should know that reprocessing spent radioactive fuel is much more difficult than enriching Uranium. The tin pot dictators are having a tough time enriching uranium and they will not be able to do spent fuel at all.

As for hydro in Washington, that is fine, too bad they have all those contracts to sell it to CA, but that should stop soon. The last time I checked CA imported 50% of it’s electricity from out of State and refused to build anything else. Then cried when they had blackouts and outages. The entire State is run by idiots and I am glad I left in 1977.

I suppose you are in the business of selling solar power, well good luck. Just don’t try to get the government to create winners and losers with fraudulent cr*p like AGW. Bnut then you have already said the magic word. You are a lawyer. Hah, you can’t be a lawyer and an Engineer at the same time. I suppose you go to K street a lot.

FINANCING GW HYSTERIA
"ALTERNATIVE ENERGY" FAKERY
Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:57 PM
Try to see what cannot be seen and the rest of the mystery will then come into the clear.

Imagine a Sheik Moham bin Moola Moola whose primary social-financial-economic-political interest is OIL-OIL-OIL and the best thing possible for this creep-sheik is the US to remain desperately dependent on acquiring its oil needs for foreign sources.

++++++++++++ Article on my blog ++++++++++++
The mystery is how do the Oil-Sheiks get the finances to GreenPeace, et-al undetected and why have not the major oil corporations exposed this fraud. First: Money is fungable and there are many banks-banks-banks in many non-taxable locations (Caymen Islands, etc.) where the monies can be put into the float never to be made accountable. Oil company executives have made the accusation that the Global Warming-Climate Hysteria is financed from sub-operations associated with OPEC, etc.

Anne
You're right they won't get it, it's called selective stupidity. Keep in mind there is a rift in the Eco-Nazi Party. One faction believes by controlling energy they can push there socialist/communist agenda. The second faction believes the same only their faction thinks it come about faster if land/property resources are controlled by them. Either faction does not really believe in the enviroment or "saving it".

Biofuels Take Biofood from Poor, WWF?
I worked for a company that converted soy to industrial oil +Diesel. WE all knew that increase soy for diesel and oil and increased corn for fuel would soon drive the price of food to astronomical heights. In short cattle feed and vegetable farmlnand is going into engines not mouths. The Zero population people and World Wildlife folks out to be ecstatic. Liberals can purge and cleanse the earth of the poor and still sing kumbaya. Adoph Eichman and the Aktion 14 crowd would approve of this riddance of the untermenchen. Joseph Mengele should have had as much compassion on the poor and the unborn as a modern Earth First/ Al Gore devotee. which reminds me of a sick, sardonic joke concerning liberals and abortion ( or global starvation via biofeuls) What is the difference between a liberal and a sadist? Liberals don't like to hear their victims scream. Mike Guy

Terrorist Stealing Nuclear Wastes
Perhaps Vic does not understand that nuclear waste would be shipped across the country via truck or rail. Perhaps terrorists could not find those trucks or trains, and could not steal the material.

And perhaps those same terrorists are too stupid to know that just wrapping the nuclear waste around a conventional bomb makes for one heckuva dirty bomb. That is, nuclear radiation everywhere.

Perhaps Vic wants to live in a place where all this is not only possible, but probable, given our superb control of our borders and the people who enter our country.

Or, perhaps Vic wants to live near the interstate highway or rail line right where the hijacking occurs, even if there is only a little spilled in the theft process.

I don't.

The statement about one minor mishap in Pennsylvania suggests Vic never heard of Chernobyl.

Nuke Is Nuts. nuff said.

king lib
heres a good one for you
all you whiny, p#ssy, doped up, mother gaia,eco weenies have succeeded in creating over 30 "boutique " blends of gas to be used in you so self conscious little utopias
heres a thought- why not one blend that makes you all so happy that we just produce that and production costs go down
prices will fall and everyone is happy
oh thats right, if you dont have anything to biatch about, you just cany be happy
bite me libtard

Al Gore Combustion Commisar?
In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy, John Edwards, Barak Obama and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite.

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen. All other gases< 1%. I doubt it makes much difference comapred to solar activity. Another idea to consider , wouldnt you think the northern states like Michigan and Washington, as well as Canada and Russia would benefit with a longer growing seasons, perhaps more rainfall and lower heating cost? Perhaps a longer growing season in the grain regions of the world, more rainfall, lower heating cost would benefit humanity? It benefited Lief Erikson, Greenland and Europe in the 1300's.
Michael Guy

Texn Engneer
I'll tell you just like the others. You can wrap all the spent fuel around a bomb you wish to try. You should stick to lawyering and lobbying because you know nothing about nuclear power, spent fuel shipping, or anything else related to generation of large amounts of electricity.

Texn Engneer
BTW, not only do I know all about Chernobyl (see my post on the Sowell thread) but I have talked to the operators from there.

Cheapest Rate Possible
Pardon me, while I disagree. Public utilities are (or were, before deregulation) in business to create the highest investment base possible because their income and profits were (are) based on a stated return on their capital investment. Pass-through energy costs removed any incentives to produce power cheaply. California is now in a different category, but that is a story for another time.

With the regulatory mandated down-time for nuclear power plants, the on-stream factor is very low. The capital charges for each kwh produced escalated out of control. No way Vic's fully-costed power price was 0.013 cents per kwh.

The power companies with nukes along the Gulf Coast (U.S.) had to raise their rates after building nukes, because their customers found it more attractive financially to generate their own power - refineries, chemical plants, steel mills, etc.

Then the power companies had to raise their rates again to maintain that return on capital investment.

Those who suffer are the little guys who could not build their own generators. Nuke Is Nuts.

And yes, it is very possible (and highly profitable) to be both an engineer and an attorney. My legal clients love the fact that I can relate to them as an engineer. Saves everybody time, and time is money. Also eliminates many misunderstandings, and that is priceless.

king lib
west virginia
Robert "KKK" Byrd
lib land
nuff said

Ahh That Explains It
Perhaps Vic was too close to Chernobyl and suffers from the experience. Or another nuke, perhaps. Just speculating...not stating as a fact.

Wrap all the nuclear waste around a bomb, and that is ok? hmmmmmm.... Perhaps Vic will tell us all exactly why spent nuclear fuel rods are stored where the radiation cannot reach people? Or other living things? If they are so safe, why not just sell them in Wal-Mart as poles for a basketball hoop?

Who says I am a lobbyist? Projecting just a bit here?

And, of course I know nothing about large-scale power generation...unless designing, building and running large, combined cycle cogeneration plants counts. Or... well, what's the use. Vic's mind is made up. I am an idiot, or is it eco-idiot?

Who is it that said the nuts on TH resort to name-calling?

A gathering of morons
Stumbled across this little discussion and wanted to make comments but there are so many morons in here that don't know what they are talking about, are seriously uninformed, yet are sure they are right. To many idiots to even try to set straight. If you still don't believe Global warming, you are a moron, plain and simple. If you think alternative energy can not power our society, it can only be because you are uninformed on recent technological developments. In 20 years oil will cost a fraction of what it costs now because the demand will have shrunk so small it will be worthless as a form of energy. You simply have no idea of current technological developments which will change everything.


PS> I just had to quote this next paragraph because it really exemplifies and characterizes what it is to be an ignorant arrogant American. America did not invent the world you brainless yankee! Don't forget the invention we couldn't live without....Nuclear weapons

"How right you are! Just as America's best and brightest made computers, the internet, oil refineries, and most of the good inventions in the world, etc and etc. Our nerds are just better than anyone else's."

Texn Engneer
As I said, you know NOTHING. There is no such thing as "regulatory mandated downtime". And yes, our cost was 0.013 per kw-hr and on a steady decline. Plants all across the country are getting cheaper to operate and yes, all utilities raise their rates ANY TIME a new plant is placed on the line, Nuke or otherwise. It is called getting a return on the investment. As far as people generating their own power, yes some do but not because they can do it any cheaper than most utilities, but for other reasons. Most people who generate their own are producing it at about .25 to .30 cents a kw-hr if they use coal and a large plant. Much much higher if they are using fuel oil or natural gas. Those cost about 250 dollars per hour to operate for a 50 MW plant.

As far as your clients go you had best stick to chemistry and law because you know nothing on this subject. Including it appears utility regulations outside of California.

At any rate it is time for this particular waste of time to end. I have to go.

Hey, Texn Engneer!
What kool-aid have you been drinking? On stream factors very low because of regulatory mandated down-times?

How about refueling outages of less than 35 days followed by 20+ months on-line for 24/7?

You must have been out of the industry for a long while...

I'll buy into your use of alternative
methods of making electricity if you agree to pay the direct costs of supplying electricity to you when your alternative method fails because the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow and your batteries run out of juice.

For you non-technical types out there, that means that the local utility has to maintain a power plant at the ready for 24/7 for those times when the greenies demand power from the grid because their pet project just failed. That's expensive power!

ForBuyFor
perhaps you should read a list of important innovations in the world, and cross-reference which country made them. Or, perhaps you will state for us all exactly which innovations were made in other countries over the past 50 years. Then we can talk.

It is not arrogance to state the facts.

Vic, too bad you have to leave now, the discussion was just about to get interesting.

I would like to see Vic's discounted-cash-flow model of a nuclear plant and its economics. I have seen more than one. With actual data. But I am sure his plant is an exception.

And no, refineries and chemical plants are not dumb enough to build coal-fired plants for their power. Did Vic read above, where I wrote combined cycle cogeneration? Two gas turbine-generators, with a single steam turbine-generator driven with steam produced from the gas turbine exhausts, and supplementally fired? (that is a bit of geek-speak, sorry). And steam extraction from the steam turbine, at appropriate pressures to be used in the refinery and chemical plants.

You see, my clients are profit-driven, capitalist to the core. The actually do want to produce power and steam as cheaply as possible, with reliability, safety, and respecting all applicable laws.

I help them do that. Our thermal efficiency is at least 75 percent. Some are higher. Our cost of power produced is far less than what the power company charges us. That is why we build the dang things!

I'll buy into your use of alternative
Joe America... you surely must be one of those non technical types to make such foolish statements. You're just regurgitating nonsense you read from other people. Based on your comments, you have no idea how an electrical grid works or how renewable energy fits into the equation. Unknowledgeable people like yourself should maintain their dignity by not trying to pretend to be knowledgeable. To the people who are indeed "technical types", you sound like a moron.

texn engineer
Texn, I don't wanna put you down because you seem intelligent with opinions that make sense. However I would not waste my time trying to list for you all the inventions in the last 50 years and cross reference them to countries. I don't have 6 months to research for you, but I will say this, If you agree with such an outlandish statement, then you should research it as it is you making the ridiculous claim. If you really believe that, then you certainly are not as well informed as you are intelligent, and you're just another arrogant american who sees the world from one point of view only, the American view.

Catch the "Thief in Chief"
Bear in mind that the Kyoto Protocol together with "carbon credits" was schemed by Maurice Strong, Canadian, now residing half of his time in Red China, whose journalist cousin Anna Louis Strong was a Comitern especially close to Chicom - the notorious "paper tiger" phrase was given to her by Mao .

The Kyoto Protocol and the "gobal warming", etc. are just part of the global plan of godless commies to wear down America, the last bastion for Christianity, to pave the way for the "beast" to rule the world.

Joe-America
hah!

It's called DG, for distributed generation.

Won't need your long-distance transmission lines, and won't need your outrageously-priced back-up power either.

Electric utilities are dinosaurs, dead but don't know it. You keep building your coal-fired power plants with their 25 percent thermal efficiency. Please don't build any more nukes with even lower efficiency -- the world cannot afford to clean up your toxic mess.

We will keep building our big combined cycle plants, and lots of small, plentiful, reliable power plants run by renewable sources, and backed up with UPS and flywheel technology. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 20 years.

You can deny that the technology is here, but GE and Siemens are selling all the wind-turbine-generators they can make. And no, they don't kill birds any more.

The California desert - and soon in Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and others - is sprouting solar-powered plants. And some of them run round the clock, with thermal storage. Works really well. And we have natural gas as our backup for long cloudy periods.

How do you plan to sell us your expensive grid power? As I wrote above, more and more of your customers will click off the grid, or better yet (horrors!) force you to buy back our excess power at your on-peak rates. Your customer base shrinks, your rates must increase, making it more attractive for my clients to go with DG.



List of Inventions
I did have to do that research a couple of years ago.

And no, I am not an arrogant American - quite the opposite. I am very pleased with the opportunities being an American has to offer. I would love to see what bright minds in other countries, but without our opportunities, could do if they had our opportunities.

Or as we used to say about Brazilian soccer teams, who knows how many great NFL running backs could come out of Brazil? Those guys will never have the chance, and in my experience, would never even consider it. They love their futbol (soccer) down there!

Our U.S. patent system is a primary reason we have so many innovations, and our practice of rewarding those who have an innovation. Other countries do very poorly in this area.

As an example, India only recently had a patent law, and it is very weak with few penalties for patent infringers. India also has a lot of very smart people, but they have zero incentive to invent anything.

As I wrote above, I have traveled to many, many countries and have a very good idea of their systems and their problems. I am not arrogant to be an American, just very, very grateful.

List of Inventions
Is it possible to be arrogant and not realize it? Perhaps. I would not deny America's wealth of invention and discovery as I benefit every day from it in one for or another, however to say that pretty much all the important or worthwhile inventions have come from the US is arrogant no matter how you look at it. Could America have spaceflight without German rocket technology? Would you have even been able to build a space shuttle without the light bulb to see what you were doing (invented in Canada, the patent was sold to Thomas Edison)or could they have even showed up for work as they would probably all be sick or dead without the CANADIAN discovery of antibiotics. I could go on and on and on. As an American, you are really only aware of your own countries accomplishments and ignorant of others. I'm sure as an intelligent person you can see how some people might be offended by such statements. To say that's not arrogant is, in itself, arrogant.

Two Words
Hydro Power

it already provides us with 10% of our energy needs, how about a few more dams...Oh wait! That might be one word.

The Truth About "Alternative Energy"
One of the worst offenders in the war of words with respect to energy is the current TV ad program of BP. The ads feature boneheads who don't know a BTU from a Dunkin' Donut telling...presumably BP...what has to be done to provide for our country's energy needs. This stupid program merely misleads millions who don't begin to understand what needs to be done.

THE REAL TRUTH
TO all the detractors of Alternative energy.....try telling your story to my hundreds of customers who now enjoy free power for the next 20 years for the amount of money they used to spend on energy in just 4 years. GRID TIE BABY...that's where it's at!!!

According to Charles, thats just me helping satan.

Arrogant
Definition of arrogant:

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.

2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others.

So, am I arrogant? I hope not.

It is of paramount importance to disseminate information, correct misconceptions, and try to persuade others of the correctness of one's views.

This very public forum is a marvelous means of doing all that. It is also a means of identifying false statements.

This is also known as the marketplace of ideas. The ideas that can withstand scrutiny, are factual, and have good outcomes should be and will be accepted by persons of good will.

I noted in my travels that many people in other countries wished out loud that they had the opportunities we have in the US. I also wish they did.

My point is that US citizens should be aware of how good we have it in this area (rewards for innovation). We are not necessarily any smarter, nor better, than non-US citizens, because our underlying system allows us to achieve and invent great things.

By the way, there is a current move to change our US Patent system to harmonize (match better) with the European system. This is not a good idea.

I know that some will say all attorneys are arrogant. I disagree. I just know that my clients are very grateful when we win, and seriously unhappy with me when we lose.


Texn Engneer
You honestly believe that the "green" nuts would let people damn New England streams and rivers again to use hydropower?

Up there in Taxachusetts, the home of the liberatl weird, you try to re-route a ditch to widen your driveway and you could get tagged for the horrible eco-crime of interfering with the natural course of a waterway.

Many years ago at UT
Thirty years ago, I had a physics professor (one of these genius types who were forced to teach a class for non-majors). He used to rail against nuclear and one of the reasons was, as Texn said a couple of posts back, that plutonium would be abundantly available for deviant terrorists, and that we would need a police state in order to protect ourselves from these dirty bombs.

It is a daunting question, nukes or no nukes, but one more easily answered if we could make the psychological leap to a society where growth is only a secondary consideration. Stop this out of control immigration/amnesty by stopping Rudy, Huckster, Obama and AntHill, and vote in Mitt Romney. Anything else and we are all sunk.

Mother of 4
No, I don't. I was referring to earlier times, when many dams and water wheels were built.

We have similar dam-blockers in California. Our Governator proposed just a few new dams as water storage reservoirs due to our critical water shortage. The enviro-wackos out here shouted him down.

It will be interesting to hear what they shout when there is not enough water to drink. I am personally hoping somebody in the rainy states sells fresh water to us in California. They would get a good price. Perhaps a Canadian will sell us some water from British Columbia.

The US is fairly saturated with hydro-electric dams now, and there is a move to get rid of the dams in favor of a natural flowing river.

I don't see how that is a good thing for fish that thrive in lakes, but cannot thrive in flowing rivers. Those fish are going to be decimated.

I believe the northeast now is contemplating wind-generators on some mountain ridges. Those would not re-route much water. That geographic area has some very good wind potential.

Of course, wind-power plays havoc with public utilities, as they have the burden to increase or decrease their generation to maintain the proper parameters on their grid.


Catch the "Thief in Chief"
forbuyfor 8:25 PM

"In his arrogance, the wicked man...His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats..." That's what the Bible says, young man.

You want the answer?
American Government loves money
Money comes from taxing oil
We can switch to Nuclear energy in a few years, drive down the cost of electricity, and increase the health of our planet.
But the Liberal Government, Both RepLIBicans and DemonCats want the tax revenue.
Nuclear is by far the cleanest safest energy source available.
And Guess what??????
It is organic!

Carbon Credit Fraud, Monopoly&Marx
In this new scheme certain well connected bureaucrats and politicians will determine and ration how much coal, wood or petroleum products they will allow a person, business and even country to use. Under the ruse and guise of “protecting the planet” they will be the sole, non-elected arbiters on how much carbon one can use for travel, heating and industry. In short, they will control all industrial processes along with modes and amount of travel. First, they will paraphrase Henny Penny’s portentous, despairing cry of imminent doom, “The sky is heating!” Then, the only solution proffered will be absolute control of all combustion. Finally, only friends, contributors and companies in which they or their collaborators own stock will be allowed access to resources needed for industry and the economy. This resembles the government-chartered monopolies in the age of Mercantilism. In fact it will be a type of Marxist monopoly envisioned in Ayn Rand’s novel, Atlas Shrugged. And who stands to benefit for this feudal right to allocate resources and sell the permission to use carbon? It will be their new excellencies, Al Gore, Robert Kennedy, John Edwards, Barak Obama and the rest of the Democratic progressive elite.

P.S Carbon Dioxide is only 1/3 of one percent, that is 0.0034 of the pressure, volume and mass of the air. 79% is Nitrogen almost 21% oxygen. All other gases< 1%. I doubt it makes much difference comapred to solar activity. Another idea to consider , wouldnt you think the northern states like Michigan and Washington, as well as Canada and Russia would benefit with a longer growing seasons, perhaps more rainfall and lower heating cost? Perhaps a longer growing season in the grain regions of the world, more rainfall, lower heating cost would benefit humanity? It benefited Lief Erikson, Greenland and Europe in the 1300's.
Michael Guy

forbuyfor
Golleeeeeeee.... next you will be claiming the Chinese invented gunpowder, the Germans the automoblie and the Italians the radio. All good Town Hall readers know those things and the inventions you mentioned were actually invented in Russia. Sounds like you have a slight case of superpower envy which is completely misplaced given America's rush to destroy the freedoms that produced that status.

LETS GO NUCLEAR!
not on iran...but here in the USA... if we biuld one nuclear plant in each state of the nation in the next 10 years, we could slash our oil dependency in half....stupid Green Peace liberals with their dumbdown science cannot fathom the thought of doing what is right...Gore does not even dare mention it....none of the presidential candidates mentions it...France derives much of its electric capacity from nuclear power, without a single incident in 40 years. The environmentalists do not realize that they are killing us, one watt at a time!

texn engineer
I doubt if you're back today but I'll give this one more shot.

I did not get into combined cycle plants because typically they are much larger and much more expensive than what a typical manufacturing plant wants to power their plant. The lifetime of a manufacturing plant can not justify the cost of one of these combined cycle plants that is big enough to power an entire city. When you see these types of plants built by a non-utility it is because they were able to work a deal with a local municipality that is also a utility.

Now I will admit that financing is not my area of expertise, although I was exposed to it on a regualr basis, but I did read all the industry journals.

You have become so blindly supportive of solar that you apply California thoughts to the entire nation. I can personally tell you, having lived all over the country, that CA is not like the rest of the country. We do have other options that allows the cheap generation of electricity.

Vic - One last thought
you misinterpret my writings. I am not *blindly supportive of solar*. I am a pragmatist. Go back and read what I wrote about solar where the sun shines, wind power where wind blows, and wave power where waves roll.

We have sunshine and vast, empty deserts in California. I will not apologize for that. The sunshine is a natural resource that we can and will exploit, just as other parts of the country exploited their resources.

I agree that California is different, and not always in a better way.

Solar Venture Capital
check here.

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/071205/full/450768a.html

They are calling it the Next California Gold Rush.


religious crackpot
Charles writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 10:20 PM
Catch the "Thief in Chief"
forbuyfor 8:25 PM

"In his arrogance, the wicked man...His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats..." That's what the Bible says, young man.


Sorry I don't read fiction

moron alert
TruLib writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 11:36 PM
forbuyfor
Golleeeeeeee.... next you will be claiming the Chinese invented gunpowder, the Germans the automoblie and the Italians the radio. All good Town Hall readers know those things and the inventions you mentioned were actually invented in Russia. Sounds like you have a slight case of superpower envy which is completely misplaced given America's rush to destroy the freedoms that produced that status.

Another arrogant know it all American

Nuclear Power
is a political, not technical, problem.

What can't (or won't be reprocessed economically) can be encapsulated and dropped in the Mariana trench, to be locked up and recycled for much longer than anyone could care.

With IFRs, we could have all the electricity we need.

There is more radiation from the coal plant fly ash than there is from a nuclear plant.

forbuyfor
forbuyfor writes: Wednesday, December, 05, 2007 7:32 PM

"A gathering of morons"

Are you joining us?

"Stumbled across this little discussion and wanted to make comments but there are so many morons in here that don't know what they are talking about, are seriously uninformed, yet are sure they are right. To many idiots to even try to set straight. If you still don't believe Global warming, you are a moron, plain and simple."

You write non-sentences, and don't know the difference between "to" and "too", so I guess that qualifies you as an expert on idiots.

Now, is there a difference between Global and global warming? Why not Global Warming?

Have you heard of increasing solar energy output and the warming on Mars? Do you think that we have control over that? Are you aware of the previous ice age? What was the first Earth Day all about? Any clue how Greenland got its name? Was the Westinghouse Bridge named for George Bridge?

For al @ 01:50 today
Great idea. Also, howzabout a nice, NAFTA-internal deal such that AECL constructs the new plants in US, and Saskatchewan yellowcake is supplied to them?

AECL = Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.

Rockets.
We have rockets. Why don't we just pile all that nuclear waste in one of those old Apollo rockets from the '70s and shoot it into the giant fussion furnace that is Sol. Problem solved. See another problem solved through simple thought. Enjoy.

Nuke is Nuts
Encapsulating nuclear waste then burying it, or dumping the encapsulated waste in a tectonic subduction zone, or blasting the waste via rocket into space all would work.

EXCEPT: we have to reprocess the spent fuel first, thereby concentrating the nuclear toxic waste. THIS IS A VERY BAD IDEA.

After concentrating it, or during the concentration process, bad actors (terrorists) have a prime opportunity to blow up the plant, or steal the stuff.

Ships get hijacked - on the way to the Marianas trench or a subduction zone. Rockets BLOW UP sometimes...Challenger, anyone?

The only rational answer is to shut down the existing nukes as quickly as possible, NEVER build any more, and generate power by alternative means...solar, wind, wave, ocean thermal, tidal...we have the technology, now let's exert the willpower.

Are you kidding?
Texn Engneer writes: Saturday, December, 08, 2007 11:08 AM

"Nuke is Nuts

After concentrating it, or during the concentration process, bad actors (terrorists) have a prime opportunity to blow up the plant, or steal the stuff.

Ships get hijacked - on the way to the Marianas trench or a subduction zone. Rockets BLOW UP sometimes...Challenger, anyone?"

----------
When was the last time that the Ronald Reagan or Harry Truman was hijacked from its carrier group?

A 1000MWe light water plant produces after reprocessing encapsulated waste of only a single 10-foot cube of vitrified waste per year. This is unusable stuff, easily put on one of the carrier group ships to be dumped at sea. It's not worth putting in a storage container, but go ahead if it makes you feel better - then you have nine blocks to dump. Whoopee.

Expensive energy hurts the poor the most and retards developing countries.

Real Solutions
Let's face it - there is a trend of accelerated global warming and it will contiue for many, many years until a cooling cycle begins to take over. Of course, the activities of humans must contribute some small percentage to any climate trends. However, the best scientific minds, those without a political agenda or not immersed in some get-rich scheme, agree that we would have a warming cycle problem regardless of man's influence. The scary thing is that if we overreact to warming as suggested by the Al Gore addicts, we may destroy many economies while not doing anything significant to accommodate a natural process. By destroying economies to minimize CO2, we will not be capable of the investments required to properly accommodate the natural warming cycle. In addition, by focusing only on the reductions in human activity to reduce CO2 emissions we overshadow any intelligent discussions of how to cope realistically and effectively with this natural problem. We better quit focusing on windmills and corn fed automobiles and focus on how we respond to droughts, rising sea levels, forest fires, etc.

Look people, mankind has done precious little to cause Global Warming and mankind can do very little to stop it. We must, therefore, invest in accommodating and living with these natural changes. A worldwide effort is needed, but first we had better begin to focus on the real problem and stop reacting to such things as Al Gore's get rich carbon trading and alternative energy venture capital schemes.

By the way - the first thing we need to address is how to insure adequate supplies of fresh water; or we can wait until we have to ship millions of bottles of water to downtown Atlanta, that should begin in about March 2008.

Vic
Thank you for the suggestion, but that doesn't answer the question of what happens to the rejected heat. A suggestion would be to use it to heat a low boiling point medium such as freon. There is an engine that utilizes such a medium and produces high torque at low rpm's call the "Chapman Orbital Engine." It was designed by Howard Chapman and Alan Tratner some years ago. It was one of the center pieces of their energy system that included a stackable horizontal wind turbine.

I don't think using rejected heat or directed heat constitutes a perpetual motion machine, only an efficient use of available heat. Unless I missed it, rejected heat is still heat energy created from an original fuel source and not out of nothing. Then again, I could be wrong.

CO2
old progrmr writes: Saturday, December, 08, 2007 1:50 PM

(Bendix G10? How's your COBOL, or aren't you that old? PDP-03?)

"By destroying economies to minimize CO2,..."

Yep, increased CO2 follows the warming, and is not a cause.

Hey Rich D
I'm older than dirt! My Cobol's not that good, mostly assembly language programming. How about IBM 1401, 1410 and 7090/7094 - then IBM 360. Punched card decks, job control language and patches. Do you remember assembly language programming with variable word length and "word marks"? Process simulations running on IBM 7090 that ran for about 6 hours. Real time programming on IBM 1800's, with one of the first true partioned, multi-program operating systems, MPX, then to PDP-8, PDP-11, Data General Nova mini-coputers. Maybe you probably remember coding directly in machine language to bypass the very slow, TTY based, 2-pass PDP-8 assembly process (mylar tape). The PDP-14, the plated wire memory forerunner of the Programmable Logic Controllers (interconnected on the plant floor to PDP-8's). Wonder why DEC never became the leader in personal computers or PLC's (remember the single board Falcon)- they should have with the proper leadership. Languages such as Cobol, RPG, Fortran IV, Forth. Then came the Apple with Basic and Visi-Calc before MicroSoft even thought about Excel. Four-bit slice emulations with firmware to mimic instruction sets of various mini-computers for embedding in industrial controllers. Core memory replaced by dynamic RAM. We dinosaurs invented a lot of stuff over the last 40 years. PS - I even know a little about Bendix (the name Mary Cunningham ring a bell).

old progrmr -1
old progrmr writes: Sunday, December, 09, 2007 1:14 PM
Hey Rich D

"I'm older than dirt!"

I'm almost older than water as far as computers go!

I remember Bendix G10s with tubes, drum memories, and Sperry Rand and DG computers. Also assembly language programming, including hand entering the bootstrap loader for the PDP11-03 (or was it 8 or both?) when the paper tape reader wouldn't work.

Did a lot in DEC RSX-11M on PDP-10s, 11, 34s, and 40s to the point where I could tell what the processor was doing just by watching the panel address and data lights. Designed plug-in boards (wire-wrapped!) and the drivers for them. Actually found a bug in the OS, fixed it, and gave it to DEC. Yeah, did some JPL. too, and shuffled punch cards. Also did assembler and Fortran for HPs. That was fun, because the Fortran compiler aligned the program into memory blocks and you could break a program by removing a line of source code. Subroutine code had to be within the same or adjacent block as the call, and removing a line would drop a call statement to a lower block while its entry point stayed in the original block, now putting it out of reach! You could rearrange the subs in the source, or just add some noops to fill the space where you removed code.

How about 12-inch disks that held all of 270K?

old progrmr -2
"Wonder why DEC never became the leader in personal computers or PLC's...they should have with the proper leadership."

I think that was it - they focused on HW and SW, but not application support. A good app group would have helped. I used PDPs and RSX for building energy management and electric utility SCADA systems.

"..before MicroSoft even thought about Excel."

MS purchased Excel, and then promptly ruined it by overloading it with junk. The RT drivers still don't work - try convincing a spreadsheet not to treat a text column of numbers as numbers.

The Motorola chips always used the symmetrical assembly instruction set modeled after the PDPs. There was only one non-symmetrical instruction that wouldn't do auto inc/dec on any register. Intel chips were and are junk, and the language is non-symmetrical and backwards. I was sorry to see them win out and now replace the PowerPC IBM/Motorola chips in the Macs.

Have we bored everybody yet?

old progrmr -3
My preference now for RT control would be Ada running on a redundant PowerPC chips. Safest possible language for mission-critical RT system where lives and expensive property are involved.

Rich D
How would you protect the spent fuel during transport from the nuclear power plant to the reprocessing facility? Is the Ronald Reagan going to help in that one?

I can just see that big old aircraft carrier on a zillion wheels being towed down the interstate by a Ford F-150. Would make a great ad for Ford...

Think it through, guys.

We have horrible accidents every year involving trucks and trains carrying toxic chemicals. Search for train and chlorine spill and see what turns up. If you think chlorine is bad, just wait until spent nuclear fuel is scattered around the countryside.

A couple of years back, Houston had a tank truck wreck that was carrying ammonia. It smashed into an overpass near the Galleria (close to Interstate 10 and Loop 610)

Even more recently, San Francisco had a truck wreck (I think it was gasoline) that shut down part of the freeways. That prompted the famous Hollywood genius (Rosie) to say that fire can not melt steel.

Again, NUKE IS NUTS...

Non sequitur
Texn Engneer writes: Tuesday, December, 11, 2007 12:56 PM

"Rich D
How would you protect the spent fuel during transport from the nuclear power plant to the reprocessing facility? Is the Ronald Reagan going to help in that one?"

Same way that they get it to the plant. Your argument seems to be based on fear and what-ifs. One idiot group of protesters said that we shouldn't build power plants because they would just be another terrorist target. Of course, clobbering unguarded transmission lines is much easier.

You forget that I said that the fleet would be used to dispose of the stuff after reprocessing and concentration (and where it's useless for weapons), and where it would all be collected in one spot, but you needed to make your point anyway.

I guess we could just retreat to our living rooms and remaining candles, wrap ourselves in mattresses, and await the end. Don't forget to float your candle holder in a bowl of water and blow it out before falling asleep - we don't want any accidents.


Global warming scientist paid off too!
quote from another poster

I hear this mantra from the environmentalists are communist crowd "many scientists think global warming not real, its only based on computer models, recent findings are that it is not problem" this is all a well financed lie paid for by Exxon!

end quote.

And the scientist who say global warming is man made (what few there are) are all paid by the left leaning research grant issuing organizations.

Prank and joke Christmas gifts http://www.givemetheinfo.com/Christmas-prank-gifts/

Rich D
I forget very little.

And, you pointedly do not address my concerns: protecting the spent fuel in transit to the reprocessing plants, providing adequate security at the reprocessing plants, and transporting your "cube of toxics" to the vaunted USS Ronald Reagan.

Are you going to bring the RR to port just to pick up the cube of toxics? Which port? Will the bad guys know about this? How are you going to hide the RR from them?

When nuclear advocates can show me that nuclear power produces no toxic wastes, e.g. Plutonium, then we can talk.

Simply stating that no nuclear accidents occurred, (Chernobyl nothwithstanding) and nuclear fission produces no CO2 is not nearly enough. Plutonium. Period. The nuclear plants create Plutonium.

In the meantime, my group will continue our responsible, rational course to bring forth safe, renewable, economic energy. We have the technology. We have the financing. We have the resources.


Texn Engneer
Hyperbole will get you nowhere, as will ads for your company.

I mentioned more than two carriers (Reagan and Truman) as examples; "vaunted" is a dismissive term that doesn't argue anything.

If the idiots want to try to hijack a 10 foot cube of metal and glass at a US military port where a carrier docks, how are they going to defeat the military and how are they going to even lift it? Carry it away on what? To where? After processing, the waste is poisoned for weapons use, and contains no plutonium worth trying to get out of it.

And yes, there are reactor cycles that produce no plutonium and reprocess on site. You sound out-of-date and prejudiced. Also, in spite of Carter, reprocessing is gong on in other countries.

NUKE IS NUTS is just your bumper-sticker slogan.


Rich D
point out the hyperbole, please. And, where has my company name been mentioned? Who says I work for a company? Please point that out.

Vaunted is only a dismissive term where power or prowess is unwarranted. The nuclear-powered aircraft carriers in the US fleet are justifiably vaunted. Awesome is another word for it.

Again, you will not address my points. Why is that?

And, even if we concede for argument's sake that some nuclear cycles exist that do not produce Plutonium, and do reprocessing on site, what is your answer to the dozens of power plants in the US that DO produce Plutonium, and DO NOT reprocess on site?

Out of date, you say - No, just a realist, a rational consequentialist, who must deal with the nuclear toxic waste legacy that exists today and will continue to grow until those nukes are shut down.

Prejudiced you say? A realist, I say.

NUKE IS NUTS aint half bad as a bumper sticker slogan.

How could any rational person advocate an industry that creates lethal, toxic, very long-lasting (thousands of years) compounds when safe, reliable, economic alternatives exist?

Are you the prejudiced one? Got something against solar, wind, wave, and geothermal power? Please explain what, and why.

Are you out-of-date? Recent advances in all the afore-mentioned alternative energy technologies make them sufficiently attractive to draw serious investment money.

Texn Engneer Points -1
“And, where has my company name been mentioned?”

Never said that.

“Who says I work for a company? Please point that out.”

You: “Just a chemical engineer and attorney, with 3 decades experience world-wide with energy companies…And, of course I know nothing about large-scale power generation...unless designing, building and running large, combined cycle cogeneration plants counts…That is why we build the dang things!...I just know that my clients are very grateful when we win.”

OK, you are retired, on welfare, or work for a company either as a consultant, an attorney, independent contractor, university researcher, employee, or government agency. I doubt the first two. What I mean by ads is that you keep touting your expertise.


“Again, you will not address my points. Why is that?”

Vic, inkling_revival, and I already have. Which ones are left?

(1) Moralizing:

“I am ashamed to be a part of the generation that built nuclear power plants, and you should be, too.”

Poor guy. Now, how do we address that? Some idiot in China is still whipping himself over his ancestor who invented gunpowder.

(2) Reprocessing safety:

Already addressed – it can and is being done.

(3) Plutonium:

Already addressed – it can and is being reprocessed and reused or made harmless for bombs.

(4) New nuclear plant designs:

You: And, even if we concede for argument's sake that some nuclear cycles exist that do not produce Plutonium…

Conceding a fact for argument’s sake?! What kind of engineering attitude is that? Maybe you aren’t up to date.

(cont.)

texn Engneer Points -2
(5) Question begging:

“How could any rational person advocate an industry that creates lethal, toxic, very long-lasting (thousands of years) compounds when safe, reliable, economic alternatives exist?”

a) We aren’t rational; only you.
b) The technology to detoxify and reprocess exists and the technology to build better plants without ever mining uranium again exists.
c) Economic alternatives depend on subsidies and political chicanery. How come Teddy won’t let them put windmills in his back yard?

(6) Non sequiturs:

(i) “Got something against solar, wind, wave, and geothermal power? Please explain what, and why.”

Not if it can compete in a free market w/o subsidies. But apparently, you do:

You: “The US is fairly saturated with hydro-electric dams now, and there is a move to get rid of the dams in favor of a natural flowing river. I don't see how that is a good thing for fish that thrive in lakes, but cannot thrive in flowing rivers. Those fish are going to be decimated. Of course, wind-power plays havoc with public utilities, as they have the burden to increase or decrease their generation to maintain the proper parameters on their grid.”

(ii) “Ships get hijacked.”

The Harry S Truman.

(iii) “San Francisco had a [gasoline] truck wreck…”

Really? Then let’s not transport gasoline anymore.

(cont.)

texn Engneer Points -3
(7) I am an engineer. We deal in reality.

I am an engineer. I create the future reality.

(8) Speculations:

You: “We can easily have cars that achieve 100 miles per gallon, as just one example. We can also have pure, clean water in abundance around the entire globe.”

How?

(11) Smart aleck?

You: “Perhaps Vic was too close to Chernobyl and suffers from the experience.”

No comment.

-------

Are we having fun yet?


Rich D: Duckin n Dodgin
"already have."

Sorry, Rich D. I fail to see where anyone addressed my points on ensuring safety while spent nuclear fuel from existing plants is transported to reprocessing facilities, the Plutonium is extracted, then the Plutonium is transported to a disposal site or ship. Did I miss that part?

You are a clever guy, Rich D. I enjoyed your exchange earlier about programming computers in the early days. Did a bit of Fortran IV myself, and ran PDP and DEC machines. Also know what a tape punch machine is and how to run it.

As to moralizing: Why is criticizing nuclear technology moralizing, but it is ok to bash any number of other societal issues? If there is a double standard in your mind, please explain where the line is drawn.

Speculations: hardly. Read up on the eere website. You might be surprised.

It is up to you, as a proponent of nuclear plants that create toxic Plutonium, to explain how your position is rational. It may have seemed rational in an age when low-cost fuel seemed gone forever (the 1970's), and uranium for nuclear plants was the cheapest thing available (except, of course, water for hydroelectric plants).

Those days are gone.

As to not transporting gasoline, surely you jest. Perhaps you do not see the difference in a gasoline truck explosion (a big fireball, heat for a few minutes or hours, and minor repairs required), compared to a truck wreck of toxic spent nuclear fuel in transit across the country.

That would result in radioactive uranium, toxic Plutonium, and other nuclear waste spread across a populated area. If the diesel in the truck caught fire, it could be even worse.

Can you provide absolute assurance that this would not happen? Do you want to live where that happens?

More
Subsidies: and this is bad, how exactly? Surely you would agree that one legitimate governmental purpose is to form policies with financial carrots and sticks to accomplish goals?

If not, then why did railroads have to build their own lines, but trucking companies got highways built for them by the government?

Are farm subsidies a bad thing?

Water for farmers (especially in California) is heavily subsidized. Is that a bad thing? Raising the price of water will surely raise the price of food.

Hydroelectric dams were built with government money. Was that a subsidy? (not all, granted, but many were.)

Chrysler (some years ago) got a government bail-out. Was that a subsidy?

City of New York got a government bail-out. Was that a subsidy?

How do you define a bad subsidy? Is it bad only if it has to do with solar, wind, wave, etc.?

Smart alec? Hmmmm... are you limiting my freedom of expression? Why? Is just a bit of ridicule too much?

I keep touting my expertise? Perhaps you would prefer I preface every statement with "Well, I have heard it said, somewhere, and by somebody else, at an earlier time, that..." Must I (alone, it seems) be self-effacing? Sorry, but where is that written?

Why then do you keep harping about safe, non-toxic nuclear technologies (not just you, others do this too).

Were you touting your expertise in computer code-writing?

Enough, Rich D. You are a smart guy, and I can learn much from you. I would buy you a beer at this point, but a TH forum does not allow such.

I must do something to earn a living.

Texn Engneer
"It is up to you, as a proponent of nuclear plants that create toxic Plutonium, to explain how your position is rational. It may have seemed rational in an age when low-cost fuel seemed gone forever (the 1970's), and uranium for nuclear plants was the cheapest thing available (except, of course, water for hydroelectric plants). Those days are gone."

Actually, I am a proponent of the new designs that produce no plutonium, and safe methods to reprocess the current waste. These are not related.

I think that there are ways to insure the security of the stuff on the way to the plant. I don't see a problem with the useless stuff after processing. This is too bulky and securely packaged in glass to be of any use to anyone, and not possible for terrorists to use even for dirty bombs.

"As to not transporting gasoline, surely you jest."

Of course - you brought up the fuel truck accident!

"...truck wreck of toxic spent nuclear fuel in transit across the country."

But why a truck? My friend designs special railcars that carry containers capable of withstanding any train wreck. They reprocess in other countries w/o incident, don't they? And how will this be different from getting the stuff to the burial site?

Texn Engneer
"the Plutonium is extracted, then the Plutonium is transported to a disposal site or ship. Did I miss that part?"

Maybe that wasn't clear - after processing, there is no plutonium to dispose of.

"How do you define a bad subsidy? Is it bad only if it has to do with solar, wind, wave, etc.? "

ALL of them are. They distort markets. Food prices would adjust and more items would be planted locally, saving shipping costs. We pay seven to ten times the market price of sugar. Now the subsIdy for ethanol has bumped the price of corn, so the poor have to pay more for chicken and pork. I want totally free markets. I also see the cheapest possible energy as the main thing to raise people out of poverty. I was at a village in Haiti in 2001 where they had a co-op small generator (50KW) that was used for two hours of lighting per day that the government shut down because donating a chicken to the co-op for juice violated the public utility regs on selling electricity. The government refuses to run wires to the village also. So, no light, clothes irons, radios, sewing machines, refrigerators, but lots of malnutrition and hopelessness.

"Were you touting your expertise in computer code-writing? "

No, it wasn't in the context of claiming expertise on the topic of discussion, and I have no experience in power plant design or operation. However, I have testified before the Committee on Nuclear Reactor Safety about code design issues. And, I do have my own software business and PE license. How's that?!

Peace, and Merry Christmas. Get some work done.
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