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Thursday, May 08, 2008
Ross Mackenzie :: Townhall.com Columnist
U.S. Must Stay in Iraq Till Day is Done and Victory Won
by Ross Mackenzie
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


The latte lefties in Congress really are pieces of work — intent, as they seem to be, on crippling the nation’s economy and judiciary, as well as its energy independence. Oh, and declaring defeat in the war on terror.

On the economy, their cry — and the insistence of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton — is to raise taxes or to let the Bush tax cuts expire. Obama, for starters, also wants to double the capital gains tax, from 15 to 28 percent.

On the judiciary, they seek to stymie nearly every administration nominee to the appellate courts. Currently 11 nominees are awaiting congressional action, seven of them for vacancies deemed emergencies because of heavy docket load. Congressional leftists are determined to maintain as many vacancies as possible until after the presidential election, when they hope to pack the courts with their ideological own.

On energy, they prevent drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, restrict offshore drilling, and pile on regulations for the burning of coal and the extraction of oil from shale. No new oil refinery has been built since 1976, no new nuclear generation plant authorized in nearly as long. Now all the talk from the congressional left is for “excess profits” taxes on the oil companies, and for the green hot-air agenda of solar and wind.

Yet on Iraq in particular, and the war on terror more broadly, congressional liberals are as shamelessly apologetic as they are shamelessly defeatist. They say Iraq is, as Vietnam was, a quagmire: Bring home the boys and girls, and spend the money on infrastructure and welfarism here at home. We must stop antagonizing the Islamic world (they say), and let it sort out its own problems — those few we haven’t caused.

With House Speaker Nancy Pelosi now effectively running the appropriations process, the Democrats are loading an administration $178 billion supplemental measure for the troops in Iraq with $70 billion in domestic pork-barrel spending. Having tried and failed on dozens of votes during the past year to limit funding for Iraq, now the leftists’ goal is to force President Bush to accept their wacko domestic spending agenda — or, because of their add-ons, to veto his own Iraq supplemental funding bill.

In the process, of course, they cheapen the deaths of 4,000 American troops (islamofascism, they say, poses a threat vastly less than Nazism or Communism did) — and implicitly declare that the long war on global terror pales in importance against, for instance, the war on global warming. And never mind that doubts about the human role in global warming are markedly greater than — given the surge — doubts about the success of the American enterprise in Iraq.

The pre-emptive American enterprise in Iraq has destroyed a horrific Saddamite regime as well as its big-time role in funding global terror and training recruits. In addition, the U.S. has dared to make possible a fragile Middle Eastern democracy and associated freedoms for the Iraqi people. An ABC/BBC poll last month found 55 percent of the Iraqi people describing their lives as going well. Some quagmire.

Said Senator Obama in September: “Let me be clear: There is no military solution in Iraq, and there never was.” He believes, with his spiritual adviser Jeremiah Wright, that we were wrongly led into Iraq by a lying “C student,” and the only reasonable way out is to surrender — admit failure and defeat — and get out. No pullout could be premature, could come soon enough.

Gen. David Petraeus’ surge of 30,000 U.S. troops has worked far better than any congressional leftist thought it would or, even now, admits. Sens. Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham wrote in early April how unfortunate it is that “so many opponents of the surge still refuse to acknowledge the gains we have achieved in Iraq” — and how clear the choice “between the general who is leading us to victory and the critics who spent the past year predicting defeat.” A terrorist victory in Iraq simply would embolden islamofascists across the globe.

Iraq under Saddam was a haven — an enabler, a nexus — for jihadists meaning to do harm to us and liberty-loving people everywhere. Saddam his Baathist Sunnis are dead, isolated, or gone. By nearly all accounts the surge is working, and promoting internal stability and reconciliation. But U.S. troops must remain there to enable those processes to proceed — and the majority Shiites to resolve their differences.

In all this, Iran plays a huge role — with Moqtada al-Sadr in hiding there under extremist ayatollah tutelage, and with Iran funding, training, and arming dissident Shiites to disrupt Iraq and kill Americans. How much sense would it make to cut and run, thereby adding more strain to the already overstrained forces that remained? Further, how much sense would it make to withdraw American forces from the Iraqi border with Iran — an Iran posing the largest threat to Iraq’s long-term stability, and an Iran moving resolutely toward the practice of nuclear terror worldwide?

Let the shameless congressional defeatists explain how the nation — its surrendering forces brought home from Iraq — would avoid the consequences of failure. Despite leftist prattlings, the U.S. must stay in Iraq till the day is done and victory won.

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About The Author

Ross Mackenzie lives with his wife and Labrador retriever in the woods west of Richmond, Virginia. They have two grown sons, both Naval officers.

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Stay With The Labs
Ross,

Please stay in Virginia with your dogs. Writing revisionist History and political "analysis" are not your strong points.

This is so stupid from the very first sentence its not even worth taking apart the misleading and inaccurate details.

Liberals Shortsightedness
Liberals live on instant gratification, rarely thinking of the long term impacts of their decisions. We are seeing it now with the whole ethanol fiasco, which is turning out to be nothing but a farce that is causing food shortages, higher food costs, more clearing of land, either to plant more corn or to make more room for other crops.
The same goes for Iraq and the war on terror. An premature withdrawal would be disasterous, but they can say we "ended the war". Obama said he would withdrawal troops, keep some in the region and reinvade if necessary. That would be idiotic.
Any disasterous consequences from a premature withdrawl will be owned by the democrats. They will not be able to blame it on Bush.

Democracy
Voting doesn't make you a democracy, and Iraq is not a democracy fragile or otherwise.

Freedom is not exactly blooming either. In the south as in much of Iraq the US has had to make a deal with the devil to stop the violence, dealing with the Concerned Local Citizens which is just US-speak for a militia and many of these are made up of very conservative Islamic crazies..for many people especially women there is much less freedom, but a bargain the US has been willing to make.

Iraqi ties to terrorist was always very dubious. If the US wanted to invade a Middle East country with ties to terrorism, try Saudi Arabia--it was one of the few countries that recognized the Taliban and many including those in the royal family support terrorists by funding them, and of course the funding of the nutcase-brand of Islam practiced in that country to be imported to Mosques in the US, which include those paid as chaplans of the US military--gives you a warm fuzzy feeling doesn't it?

Cubic Zirconia
It is quite legit to ask "what bext?" in Iraq. I don't recommend a precipitous withdrawal myself, though there is certainly a middle ground between endless Iraq involvement and bringing the troops home in time for dinner this SUnday.

But it's really absurd to complain about liberals not having a grasp of the long run in light of the catastrohic miscaculations of the Bush administration. In fact, such a comment undermines the credibility of your main point.

Defeat in Iraq = Democratic Victory

“The goals of the Democrats and both al Qaeda and al Sadr insurgents are the same: the defeat of the United States in the war in Iraq.” Michael Reagan. This says it all.

There was an overriding theme prevalent in the line of questioning by most democrats during the debriefing by General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker…especially Senators Obama and Clinton. They wanted to know, what was the (America’s) threshold for defeat. They didn’t want to know the winning criteria, they wanted benchmarks for failure. In other words, how bad do things need to get before we leave. Of course neither Petraeus nor Crocker could answer. They set goals and objectives in terms success, not failure. The questions said more about the Senators than the answers did concerning the status of the war.

Unfortunately, here is another undeniable fact. Defeat in Iraq = Democratic victory. The converse is equally true. And they have put themselves in this position with their own hateful rhetoric.

this column
is not opinion, it's a pack of lies.

Jack is indeed right. Watch for this "win" to rapidly become a fundamentalist, religiously dominated power like Iran.

Bad writing 101
"The pre-emptive American enterprise in Iraq"

Hey, I'm a conservative, and even I find this line to be awful newspeak BS. Indeed, this whole column is by-the-numbers drivel that I doubt even neocons take seriously anymore.

Tiger Hold
Whether one agrees with our presence in Iraq or not, leaving suddenly would lead to an even bigger disaster. How DOES one let go of that tiger he has grabbed by the tail? Ideals aside, it is anything but practical, or even expedient to "just let go". I'm a little surprised that this isn't accepted as simple common sense. I think the left isn't as worried about it because it is too easy to lay the blame on GWB, thereby improving their political position. Sort of like creating hysteria over a hiccup in 3.7% of the housing/mortgage market in a (nearly successful) attempt to derail an otherwise stable economy. Who in their right mind would do such a thing? How bereft of conscience could they be? It's bad enough to screw over an uncountable number of your fellow countrymen to sway public opinion and therefore attain power, but to just walk away from Iraq just so you can blame someone else for the carnage that results borders on inhuman. I may not have a sure-fire answer, but simply turning our back now is unthinkable.

Akagi
I never found out about your screen name. As I said before, I am genuinely curious.

Former Iraq Commander:‘a waste of time’?
Former Iraq Commander: Bernard Kerik was ‘a waste of time’ in Iraq

Not good?

DN-The former commander of U.S. forces in Iraq took aim at Bernard Kerik in an exclusive interview with the Daily News Sunday, calling his efforts to train Iraqi police in 2003 “a waste of time and effort.”

Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top military leader in Iraq from June 2003 to June 2004, blasted the former police commissioner for failing to produce results while Kerik was the interim minister of interior in 2003.

“I would be hard-pressed to identify a major national-level success that his organization accomplished in that time,” Sanchez told The News a day before his new memoir, “Wiser in Battle” hits bookstores nationwide.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/former-iraq-comman der-bernard-kerik-was-a-waste-of-time-in-iraq

CubeCommander-USNBHead
AMAZING! Liberals RUN AWAY even if you ARE ONLY TALKING ABOUT A FIGHT!

MDoggg opines:
"Reagan wants to blame democrats but history will blame Ronald Reagan!"
...

Only if such "history" is written by some drug-addled, leftist, revisionist history professor in a 3rd-rate junior college.

Really, Doggg. You're emotions (mostly anger and hate) have overcome any objective thinking you have on the subject of Iraq.



Speaking of cheapen...
Anyone wonder why Bush waited until the day that Petraues gave his testimony on the current state of the Iraq war to give a postumus MOH to the hero's parent's? That was the most cynical and sickening thing I ever heard about in my life.

"In the process, of course, they cheapen the deaths of 4,000 American troops (islamofascism, they say, poses a threat vastly less than Nazism or Communism did) — and implicitly declare that the long war on global terror pales in importance against, for instance, the war on global warming."

America has already been defeated
Not by islamofascists, not by jihadists, Sadr, Badr, Baathists, but by the Bush and the "Texas oil millionaires."

I will repeat a quote here that tells it all. In 1954 DW Eisenhower described a conspriracy to destroy the America which was once the greatest most admired nation on the face of the earth:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

Basically, America got it's b*tt kicked.

Did I hear that Liberals need instant gratification? Tell me what compares to profiting from war? Tell me what compares to having an entire agenda and vast and impenetrable set of changes to the long established legal history of these United States, laid out, pre-written, for certain passage as soon as the "tragedy" of 9-11 occured? What in the most foul sewers of the history of the human race could compare to that?

Arrogance
How smarmy one has to be to reject the advice of military professionals, who don't relish carnage any more than your average man in the street does. Just like McNamara's 'whiz kids' they think they know better than the people doing the work. These folks are incredibly detached from the things they critique. Stephen Kings contention that illiterates end up in the Army, then Iraq, just goes to show why so many people just do not have a grasp on our situation. I was stunned that he would be so isolated from our society that he doesn't understand the educational requirements to enlist. Many branches won't even take a GED, only a bona fide High School Diploma. Your ASVAB scores have to be up there too, if you want a decent job in the military. These folks are living in their own little fantasy world.

TRHughes
Typical liberal rant.

I see you put tragedy in quotes when refering to 9/11. My assumption is you don't find it to have been a tragedy, but a reason to celebrate because someone stuck it to America.

Ron: You find it sickening that a war hero is honored. What I find sickening is liberal's false support for the troops. Out of one side of your mouths you say you support the troops, while on the otherside you are calling them murderers, rapists and criminals. Instead of making films about the heroes serving in Iraq, they make films that belittles their sacrifices. I find that quite sickening.

TRHughes
And just how has America been defeated by Texas oil millionaires you jihadist loving scumbag?

You where your love for an American defeat like a badge of honor.

USNBubblehead
It is statements like Stephen King's that reveal the true disdain liberals have for our military.

MDoggg writes:
"it says it all to blood thirsty idiots unwilling to admit the failure of our invasion. How did Sadr - enemy of Saddam AND al qaeda get put into the same league as al qaeda. Look reagan is a fool - this is not news, after all it was his Parkisons addled papa..."

Thanks for making my point.

MDogg
Sorry, but Ronald Reagan had Alzheimer's not Parkinson's but it's good to know that you like make light of one's disease. Nice. You must be a retard.

MacKenzie's a Latte Intellectual
Only a lightweight, or someone writing on TH, starts off an ostensibly serious essay with the phrase "latte lefties." He couldn't signal a more puerile attempt at condescension as art form.
In addition to badly written, as well as badly thought out, I really got a laugh out of this phrasing: "Iraq under Saddam was a haven — an enabler, a nexus — for jihadists meaning to do harm to us.."
Ross knows that Saddam wasn't harboring Al Qaeda,which is what he wants to say, too much information has come out about that, so like the dilettante he is, he uses the vague "jihadists"
I hope TH got this article for free because this guy just flat can't write.

Buck
Well put. However, most liberals are so overcome by BDS that any logical thought they might have had has been pushed out of their brains.

Koolhand
Bush never went into Iraq to get al qaeda. al-zarqwi was, however, in Iraq well before the US dropped a single bomb on the country. He fled to Iraq from Afghanistan during the bombing there.

Broaden your narrow mind. There are more jihadists than just al qaeda. If Saddam had WMD like Bill Clinton said he did, he could have provided them to any number of terrorist organizations.

Buck the new Iraq you envision
Is in fact an arm of the Iranian gov't. You cite Maliki's coaltion partner al-Hakim, the power behind the scenes in the gov't. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, al-Hakim, the SCII and their militia the Badrs are Iranian inventions. As recently as last year al-Hakim hosted two of the detained Quds Force trainers detained in Iraq. Earlier this year Cheney and McCain had to sneek into Iraq under cover of darkness while Achmadenejab's trip was announced in advance, by light of day he traveled the Airport Rd where no American official dares to tread, and was met in the streets by thousands of cheering accolates.

As far as elections are concerned, this is a case of being careful what you wish for because you might just get it. Ask yourself, what reason do residents of Sadr City, where nearly one in ten Iraqis live, have for reinstating representatives of the al-Maliki coalition which only pays attention at the barrel of a gun?

And therein lies the central problem. You refer to protecting US interest, well when an admin embarks on a democracy campaign it can't just operate based on its' own interests, it must make sure the eventual voters have a reason for backing your dog in the race.

CubeCommander
Don’t waste your time trying to debate the hate crowd. There’s no substance to the post. First he politely attacks the author, ignores the premise, and then cherry-picks and spins.

Typical.

To Ross' basic argument
I agree that we have to stay in Iraq at least until they have a functioning army and a Constitution agreeable to all sides. But I fear that the idea that the end result will be an Iraq that is in line with American interest is a fantasy.

Iran has won the war in Iraq.

Trughes
Do me a favor. Name me one war that some body hasn't profited from. War is a machine made up of men and women that need equipment and rations. Somebody has to manufacture and supply those things. Nowhere is it written that it has to be done for free. The only thing is that it has to be usable and dependable.

Cubecommander
I realize you are a Bush apologist, but please read my comments more thouroughly before you rant and rave ad-diarrheal.


Cube - I guess I was too subtle
See, the texas oil millionaires wanted to keep all their millions, now it's billions. They did not like the fact that hardworking Americans with ideas, stood the chance of making a living, when, as they thought, all the money made in America really belongs to those with the most money to begin with: that would be them.

Let me give you an example. When I was going through school, I thought, well darn near everyone thought, that with the advent of the personal computer, the people who were smart and who learned the latest technology would be more productive and therefore, would be pretty well off. But that isn't what happened. In the eighties, Reagan doubled the social security taxes and cut income and corporate taxes and started borrowing from the social security trust fund. And about that same time, the CEO's started making upto 400 times the average wage of the workers like me, who where much more productive because of our new skills. But they took all the increased profits. And the government was complicit, because it lowered their taxes, giving them even more money to drive up prices of investment real estate. It's called theft.

America used to be a middle-class dominated country, but now we are a third world feudalist state. Thank you republicans.

And as far as the "tragedy", no, your wrong. I put that in quotes, because I can show you at least twenty piece of evidence that completely disproves any possibility of the gravity hypothesis of the WTC collapse. Just go to Architects and Engineers for 911 truth (ae911truth.org). It was a well planned military operation in cooperation with the Mossad, designed to take us to a VERY profitable war for the likes of Halliburton. During the second WW there was a law against profiteering, by the way.

Cubecommander
AMEN to your 4:32 post. He's among a very low lying, dog crap eating, very ignorant group.

trughes writes:
“And as far as the "tragedy", no, your wrong. I put that in quotes, because I can show you at least twenty piece of evidence that completely disproves any possibility of the gravity hypothesis of the WTC collapse. Just go to Architects and Engineers for 911 truth (ae911truth.org). It was a well planned military operation in cooperation with the Mossad, designed to take us to a VERY profitable war for the likes of Halliburton. During the second WW there was a law against profiteering, by the way.”

I normally skip over this crap. But this slaps the face of every 9/11 living relative. Take your hateful ignorance back to the Kos…or wherever it is you came from. You and your ilk make me want to puke!

al Sadr
"In all this, Iran plays a huge role — with Moqtada al-Sadr in hiding there under extremist ayatollah tutelage, and with Iran funding, training, and arming dissident Shiites to disrupt Iraq and kill Americans. How much sense would it make to cut and run, thereby adding more strain to the already overstrained forces that remained?"

This is about the most ignorant thing yet printed on the internet, 'm surprised it didn't cause a melt down. Iran, wants peace with the Maliki government, a guy who they like a lot more than the nationalist al Sadr. The leader of the Kurds is also special friends with the Iranians. The day Bush took out Saddam and left a power vacuum, the Shia took over and Iraq is now permanently tied to Shia Iran.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/32141.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15889021/

A poisonous Iraq debate
It might be nice to be able to have a discussion or debate about Iraq without the anti-war side claining that the pro-war side deliberately and knowingly "lied us into war" to "make their oil cronies rich" or just (as Rep. Stark would have it) just "because they enjoy seeing soldiers blown up"..... and without the pro-war side claiming in turn that the anti-war side consists solely of "traitors and cowards" who "want to wave the white flag of surrender" and whose are motivated solely by crass political motives.

Personally I can understand something of the viewpoint of both sides since I've been on both. I was never really an enthusiastic gung-ho supporter of the war, but I (like most Americans) was initially willing to give Pres. Bush and his advisers the benefit of the dbout that intervention in Iraq was necessary and justified. I'm no longer convinced of that. I still don't believe Bush consciously "lied," or that invading Iraq was a "war crime". But Iraq, as somebody said about one of Naploeon's actions, was "worse than a crime, it was a blunder." We may-- or may not-- still be able to win something there we can call a victory, but I see little prospect it will be other than a Pyrrhic victory, one that does more harm than good to this country.

But regardless of what my views were then or are now, I'm willing to give people on both sides some benefit of the doubt, that they are doing and saying what they think is best for America. I see people who are mistaken-- *I* might be mistaken-- but I don't really see any "traitors" on either side, at least not except for the reeeally far fringes of the Left.

WRH Bill
There may not be any died in the wool traitors, but we have a couple here on TH that are real close. I don't have to mention their names as at least 20 different people here know who I'm talking about. If it were in my power, I'd send them over there and let them know just how our guys feel about them and their lack of support.
They are undermining the foundation of the support of the people in contact with them on a daily basis and are trying to turn the American people against our fighting forces in Iraq and Afganistan. No matter the conflict, we have to support our forces as the next conflict might be here at home and don't be naive and think it can't happen here.

I wrote to Carl Levin and told him
what a disappointment he is to me two or three weeks ago. The reason for my disappointment, is that as a jew, I thought he would understand that failure in Iraq is a threat to Israel. The US presence in Iraq is a counter balance to Iran's going power in the Middle-East. I thought that as a jew Levin would be more concerned about the security of Israel. But I guess partisanship is more important than America's most important Middle-Eastern ally. As of yet, I have not heard from my Senator about why he wants to bug out of Iraq and leave Israel to fend for itself.

buck
For starters, I'm backing the Iraqi people in this race.

You talk about the overall differences between the Persians and the Arabs, but this difference did not prevent the Iranians from creating the SCII and the Badr Organization, funding them, and continuing their close ties to this day.

The fact is that the Iranians have hedged their bets by supporting not only all the various Shiite groups, but some Sunnis as well.

By the way, I have been trying in vain to find a poll regarding public support for the different factions, and I couldn't find any. Where did you find this poll saying the support for al-Sadr is weak?

Sounds Good.....But
Do you really think there will ever be "Victory" in Iraq, you have got to be kidding??? Come on Ross have you not studied your history? The Crusaders were fighting the same fight for 200yrs and there never was a clear Victor, what makes you think the Muslim culture has changed? Dont be foolish, we are no better than all the super powers of Europe during the Crusades! It is a lost cause, we need to get out of Iraq ASAP!

Florida
No one likes war. No one wants us to loose one more young soldier in Iraq. But the idea, that we can just pull the plug and walk away from this conflict not realistic. If we leave Iraq now, we will expose millions of innocent people to such an intense massacre the likes of which the world has never seen. Are you really willing to see the wholesale slaughter of hundreds of thousand of people? Even BO has said that we are not leaving Iraq if he's elected POTUS. At least not right away, which is code for not leaving at all. So who is the person that's going to get us out of Iraq?

Mr M Coupe
Who are you to say what will happen in Iraq once we are gone? You like everyone else truly does not know what will occur! The falicy that we will ever "Win" is just that! The Muslim people will not give up fighting us, the Crusades proved that! Do you really think Islam of yesterday is any different than Islam of today? If you do please do some research then come back with your plan for Victory!

Florida
There is one real big difference between the crusades and now. We are trying to build an ally and a free country instead of conquer the country. When we are done, it will be a country governing itself. I think the majority of the people there understand this.

M Coupe has it right
Regardless of who wins this Presidency this fall we will have a significant military presence for years to come.

Florida
You are right, I do not have the gift of prophecy. I can't see into the future and tell you that if we leave, that what I said is going to happen with 100% certainty. But can you likewise guarantee that I'm wrong? And, if I am not wrong, and people are slaughtered by the tens and hundreds of thousands can you live with that? It's really a simple question and I know that your ideology won't allow you to answer me. But I want you to think about the consequences of failure in Iraq. And the fact the your candidate, if he wins is not going to pull us out of that country.

Florida
They said the same thing about Viet Nam "They've been fighting since the times of Ghengus Khan why do you think we can beat them?" If you watched the documentary titled The 10,000 day war, the top man in the NVA army stated that if we had kept up the bombing that they would have begged us to come to the bargaining table. Instead the fainthearted libs stopped the bombing and we left the Vietnamese to their own devices and the result is what you see today. BTW there was another pice of film you should watch, "The Killing Fields" then do as Mr. M. Coupe says and contemplate the results of a withdrawal. BTW #2 Yes I was there.

Mistake
It is a mistake to allow Iraq to become an independent country. No Muslim country can be trusted right now. Until we nullify Iran and Syria we cannot turn over countries we subdue in the war on terror.

Germany and Japan had our troops occupy and control them for years until they could be trusted to be on their own.

Today, we must control the world's oil supply. It is boneheaded to pay terrorist funders for their oil. We should take over Iraqi oil and Iranian oil until they learn how to behave.

IntheNow-You may really puke
when you realize how bold these evil people are.

The relatives of the victims were the ones that forced the "Omission" into existence. It was the firefighters who were excluded from the cleanup, by Guiliani, because they couldn't help noticing the columns sticking out of the ground with slag covered angle cuts!

Do you understand what an "angle cut" is. That's when thermite or thermate is placed in a circular pattern around a beam at an angle so the column slips off itself.

I swear to you by the entrails of Jesus (which I really believe was the Sun god all along, so I can swear to it, the only thing that sustains life on this planet) that all the columns were cut into 30 foot sections so they could be loaded on to trucks. Don't believe me look at the photos: they are all visible flying outside the pyroclastic cloud. They could never fly sideways without explosive force to propel them. That is a Law of Physics.

If_two_plus_two_makes_four
What you are saying is one of the most despicable things I have ever seen on TH. Please take your disgusting, distorted, and twisted world view over to the KOS where it belongs. I usually try to be as polite to people on TH. But I can't abide having such an unbelievably disturbed person, pouring the crap that fills the inside of your head, spill waste all over this page.

In the now
Trughes is right it was a planned movement and it was led by ....................ALFRED E NEWMAN!!!

I do not make up the facts
The facts are disgusting.

Believe me, I know. What is even more disgusting and if you were to look at the evidence, it would make you angry as well, is that people all over the U.S. refuse to look at the facts.

The facts are that thousands of pieces of even length cut columns can be seen in ANY photo of the collapsing buildings and they must have travelled faster than the building collapse, because they are parallel with the explosion.

There are so many facts which prove explosive ejection I can't discuss them adequately. The one that is indisputable is the presence of microspheres of molten steel. First of all the steel had to be really, really melted to form small drops and secondly, it had to be ejected through air quickly to form tiny spheres, the way they used to make bullets during the Civil War by dropping the molten lead down a smoke stack.

What is the most disgusting is the idea you would reject evidence in such a great crime, when the crime was NEVER investigated. Is that patriotism? If you think I am impugning the patriotism of all the federal agents involved, remember there was no investigation. No one's opinion was asked.

But it was a military operation, so three things: 1. planning was top secret, 2. highly organized (as I said, lead by the Mossad, who don't mess things up regularly), 3. if you tell the truth, you're dead. The definition of conspiracy is a military op.

But people say conspiracies are impossible to keep secret. Except military secrets. Those are real secrets. If you pretend to think otherwise, you're lying.

And yet, I can believe that the people involved actually thought they were acting for the "greater good". Look at the post above, Shubi, writes "iWe should take over Iraqi oil and Iranian oil until they learn how to behave."

I rest my case.

Mr M Coupe - sorry, you proved one more
point. That is that you rose up with, not only, indignation, but that you rose up in defense! of America.

You see that behavior in all gangs and in all conspiracies. One for all and all for one. Even if one, or a small group did something that was really, really bad.

Can't you see, your reaction is one of defending America. Of course. You probably realize that if such a crime as I describe did happen , then it would destroy our government. It would and could destroy America. So, you rose to the defense of America. Good Job.

But I disagree. If we are able to bring these criminals to justice that would immensely increase the strength and prestige of America. How can even a gang of thieves condone senseless murder, but they often do for the sake of saving their own skins or even their reputations as known associates of the murderer.

But that is wrong. It makes us a nation of murderers. I believe you will not find an error in my logic. The error will be in those who continue to blind themselves to the obvious.

Mr M Coupe - sorry, you proved one more
point. That is that you rose up with, not only, indignation, but that you rose up in defense! of America.

You see that behavior in all gangs and in all conspiracies. One for all and all for one. Even if one, or a small group did something that was really, really bad.

Can't you see, your reaction is one of defending America. Of course. You probably realize that if such a crime as I describe did happen , then it would destroy our government. It would and could destroy America. So, you rose to the defense of America. Good Job.

But I disagree. If we are able to bring these criminals to justice that would immensely increase the strength and prestige of America. How can even a gang of thieves condone senseless murder, but they often do for the sake of saving their own skins or even their reputations as known associates of the murderer.

But that is wrong. It makes us a nation of murderers. I believe you will not find an error in my logic. The error will be in those who continue to blind themselves to the obvious.

Iraq is like Viet Nam
According to Ho Chi Minh's Diary, the only reason the NVA didn't surrender immediately after the devastating defeat they suffered during the Tet 'Offensive' (a large scale attack launched under a truce agreement) was that they heard communistic propaganda being transmitted from Saigon (by Walter Cronkite) and they realized that there were treasonous elements with American society that could be easily manipulated to support their cause.

So, now the liberals are showing what they are really made of again, by repeating their treasonous efforts.
- 'Investigating' military information, so they can transmit it to the enemy.
- Spreading falsified and twisted information about the war; designed to lower public opinion.
- Casting America as the enemy, and the terrorists as 'freedom fighters' and heroes.
- Accusing American soldiers of war crimes, while steadfastly ignoring the real crimes of the real enemy.

Every time a terrorist crawls out of hole in Iraq to fire bomb a wedding, or a school bus, they are said by the liberals to be only reacting to American injustices.
A sickening display of total cowardice and deliberate lying.

Liberal media has cost a lot of American lives, a lot of Iraqi lives, and generally undermined the war effort right from the beginning. They are dead set on continuing to do so.

Vigilance

There is evidence in this thread that the eight plus years of the liberal hate/smear campaign against President Bush and traditional values has worked. The “culture war” is indeed alive and well.

What these young impressionable misguided craniums fail to recognize, is that before you even consider the “logic”, you must initially accept the premise that the current administration is evil, or at the very least, want to do Americans harm.

This is where the left hate machine has succeeded. They have demonized our president to the point that normally rational thinking individuals will even consider we attacked ourselves. What is truly unbelievable about this scenario, is not the conspiracy theory itself, but the fact that people actually believe it. That is scary and poses as much a threat as any of our foreign enemies.

The bad news is that the twisted hateful rhetoric has poisoned many young minds. The good news is that this same hate speech will backfire in November. No matter how hard Sen. Obama tries to insidiously lean right.

I’m hopeful for the future, despite the outrageousness sometimes displayed by attention seekers at TH. Let their posts serve as a reminder to everyone of faith, that we must continue to stay vigilant against all enemies…foreign and domestic.

eastlake joe
It is very obvious that you are spot on?? Please do you really see Muslim nations embracing our presence in the Middle East....Quit kidding yourself, they see us a conquering force thats why they will fight us endlessly!!! Its a vicious cycle, Iraq, then Syria, then Iran, etc etc... Its the Crusades we just attached a different Mission Statement to try to make it something it is not! The Muslim people are not Stupid, they hate us and hate that we are occuping their land!

Mr M Coupe
Why is it if a person disagrees with the War in Iraq they are automatically a Liberal?? Im a registered Republican who does not agree with this WAR! As an American I will not follow like Blind Sheep just because the Political Party I most agree with says its a good thing. I will continue to exercise my freedom to speak out against what is wrong regardless of what politician thinks it the right thing!!! This is called having a Back Bone and it is the American Way!

US MUST STAY UNTIL WAR OVER
AT LAST A PATRIOT THAT MAKES SENSE. STAY THE COURSE. I DO HOWEVER HAVE ONE QUESTION,. WHAT EVENT OR SERIES OF EVENTS WILL HAVE TO HAPPEN SO THE WE WILL KNOW THAT THE WAR IS NOW OVER, THE ENEMY HAS SURRENDERED AND WE HAVE ACHIEVED OUR GOALS. HOW E=WILL WE KNOW. WHEN THE BOMBING STOPS? IT WILLL CONTINUE DAY AFTER TOMOROW. TRY TO GUARANTEE AN END TO THAT. WHEN THE LAST AMERICAN SOLDIER WHO IS GOING TO BE KILLED IS KILLED. DOES HE KNOW HE HAS BEEN CHOSEN. HOW WILL WE KNOW IT IS THE LASTM ONE. THEY WILL KILL ANOTHER DAY AFTER TOMORROW. WHO WILL SIGN THE CEASE FIRE OR SURERWENDER DOCUMENT. WILL SOMEBODY INFOR AL-QAEDA THAT THE WAR IS IVER WHEN IT IS OVER . MCCAIN 100 YEARS OR WHEN THERE IS NO LINGER ANY DANGER TO OUR TROOPS OR TO THE IRAQUI PEOPLE IS WORTKLESS DROSS. SERIOUSLY THOUGH. HOW WILL WE KNOW THE WAR IS OVER. THE ONLY WAY I CAN THINK OF IS THE WAR WILL BE OVER THE DAY WE PEOCLAIM PEACE AND WITHDRAW OUR TROOPS, OR WE DECIDE TO KEEP THEM THERE AS PEACEKEEPERS. CAN YOU THINK OF ANYHTIN BETTER. IT BOTHERS ME SO I CANT SLEEP. HOW WILL THIS STUPID WAR END. HOW WILL WE KNOW. IM MEAN AFTER ALL, THE WAR COULD BE OVER RIGHT NOW. PERHAPS ALL THE VARIOUS GROUPS WHO ARE FIGHTING US IN IRAQ GOT TOGETHER LAST NIGHT AND DECIDE THAT THERE WOULD BE NO MORE VIOLENCE AGAINST ANYBODY. HOW WOULD WE KNOW. THE IDEA IS SOOLLIS BUT ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE IMPOSSIBILITY OS KNOWING WHEN IT IS OVER. SOMEBODY HELP

2+2=BS
My response to 911 conspiracy theorist is to point out a significant ugly fact of my own: The U.S. Government could f*ck-up a wet dream. Is anyone out there, with or without government experience, naive enough to think our government could have ever pulled off such a coup? The US Gov't, big lumbering sloth that it is, couldn't get out of its own way to serve 'tea' to a party of four-year-olds, let alone successfully execute such a complicated operation and maintain secrecy. I don't but this compost for a single minute! I'll tell you what, let the gov. fix social security and maybe I'd admit that such a thing might be even remotely possible, albeit with a lot (years) of practice and about 2,000 (or more)people who can keep their mouths shut. (In 2001!? HA!! That's a laugh!!)

Squre root
Furthermore, you would be very hard-pressed to find many American citizens that would be willing to participate in any such heinous act. The whistle blowing that would go on would be deafening! Even if you are an anti-government type, have a little faith in you own people for God's sake!! This delusional nonsense is nothing more than a Hollywood fantasy. Even Bill Clinton doesn't go for this bullsh!t!

STAY TO THE END
I AGREE 100 PERCENT WE MUST STAY THE COURSE. SINCE YOU ARE SO DEFINITE ABOUT THAT IM SURE YOUVE GIVE A LOT OF CONSIDERATION TO WHAT THIS MIGHT ENTAIL AS FAR A POSSIBLE TUIME IS CONCERNED.
ARE YOU SAYING THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS WE MUST STAY THE COURSE. IF NOT IS THERE A TIME LINMIT THAT YOU HAVE IBN MIND? OF COURSE IF YOU HAVE A DIEFINITE TIME LIMIT IN MIND YOU ARE NO LONGER TALKING ABOUT STAYING THE COURSE ARE YOU. STILL TIME LIMIT, TRHEORETICAALLY ANY IDEAS OR DO YOU PREFER TO LEAVE IT OPEN ENDED IN WHICH CASE YOU ARE LEAVING OUR TROOP AAND THE LENGTH OF THEIR STAY XCOMPLETELY UP TO IRAQUI TERRORISTS. AS LONG AS THEY CAN BLOW UP SOMEBODY TOIMORROW OR KILL ANOTHER AMERICAN SOLDIER ONDEC 15TH , NEXT YEAR, AND PROMISE US THAT THEY WILL DO IT, THE HOLD TALL TH CARDS AS FAR AS WHNOR IF WE WILL LEAVE, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO MCCAIN. AND YOU
IF THERE IS A TIME LINIT IS IT CLOSER TO 6 MINUTES OR 6000 YEARS. JUST CLOSE WILL DOFOR AN ANSWER.

IF YOU SAY WE MUST STAY THE COURSE NO MATTER HOW LONG, ARE YOU WILLING TO REALLY TRT TO SELL THIS TO AMERICAN PEOPLE. IS THE POSSIBILITY OF A 6000 YEAR WAR THER. IF NOT WHO IS TO STOP IT FROM HAPPENING. SEE ABOVE IN TERMS OF CONTROL BY OUR WENENY. IF YOU LEAVE IT UP TO THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAQ YOU ARE SAYING THAT ABNYONE OR ANY GROUP, IN THAT BODY WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON WANTS THE AMERICANS TO STAY HAS CONTROL OF OUR ARMED FORXCES SIMPLE BY USING THE VERY MIXED UP LEGISLATIVE PROCESS. ANY ARGUEMENT ,M, WILL BE GLAD TOHEAR THEM

USNbubblehead
I wrote a detailed post about the name on my blog--just click on my name to get there.

Akagi
Interesting. Not too far off from what I was guessing at. I appreciate the candor. We could get into a lengthy (and civil) discussion about nationalistic brutality, but I'll leave that for another day.
Regards, USNBH

The incompetence defense
Wouldn't it be just ideal if you were a successful bank-robber, but you had convinced everyone you were just a bumbling idiot. It is not a defense. Besides, your example of Social security is a political program run by 535 legislators, not a military operation. If you think our military is incompetent then why did you guys trust them to go into Iraq? I do not believe the military is incompetent. I believe the administration is. As evidence, I give you Iraq.

I went to book reading by a guy, Peter Vance, who gave the same argument, just a big bunch of bunglers. But when I asked him about Building 7, he said oh, that was brought down deliberately (6 hours after the towers), but that the building, which housed the local headquarters for CIA, FBI, and Secret Service, was already "pre-wired" for demolition, as many sensitive buildings are. Wait, if they are so incompetent, why aren't these pre-wired buildings popping off every once in a while. A lie.

Here's the exception that proves the rule. BBC reported the collapse of Building 7 twenty minutes early. I have the video, from the archives (which were subsequently "lost" by BBC. All the archives of the most important day in 100 years of modern history lost.) It shows Building 7 behind the reporter, while she is being questioned from London about the building that just collapsed, but it hadn't collapsed yet. So, the operation did scr*w up. During the interview with the reporter, 3 minutes before the building actually fell, the transmission from NYC goes digital and is lost. Someone realized what was happening and the cut the transmission.


Democrat Plan
What is the Democrat plan for a military?

What do they want? Less soldiers, less sailors, less Marines, no one ever asks them.

If they bring our boys and girls home, as they say, they are actually trained military,what are they going to do?

Have practice war games in Ga., Ks. La.

Tell me, I want to know what their big plan is for the military that protects us.

The hypocrisy is deafening.
Hate? You cons speak of hatred blinding us. Let me as a question: How do you feel about Bill Clinton. But, I know, you treated him fairly during his administration, and never interfered with his job. Right.

But let me re-cap your position on 9-11: you think it is a hate campaign based on our emotional hatred of Bush. And yet, I mentioned evidence, which you refuse to look at. Or you read published government sources that debunk the evidence. (Remember that the Popular Mechanics article was written by the first cousin of Michael Chertoff, in other words, a government source.)

Evidence is the opposite of presumption. I have asked people to look at the evidence, but that is obviously not happening. I posit this as an example of con logic: "Let their posts serve as a reminder to everyone of faith, that we must continue to stay vigilant against all enemies…foreign and domestic. " Let me remind you that "faith" is a presumption, not logic.

I clearly explained how whistleblowers might hold their tongues. a) they are patriotic and, even if mistakes were made, they will defend America, b) this was a cooperative effort with the Mossad, who don't mess around, and actually are not bound by our Constitution c) it wasn't their business. On this last point, I will remind you that both Controlled Demolition (the "clean-up crew hired) and Hallyburton have both moved their headquarters to Dubai. Out of the reach of U.S. liberals.

Reach yourself
The "operation' that you delude yourself into believing happened would not be run by the military. Although, if such a ridiculous thing were to occur, some military assets may be involved in an indirect way. The point is moot. I challenge you to find even one military veteran to come forward and say that they would accept any orders committing them to any such enterprise. Let my inform you my permanent civilian friend, you will not find any. My own duties serving aboard nuclear powered fast-attack submarines for our Navy were among the most secretive in our military, and I cannot conceive of any single crewman with whom I've served, subscribing to any such ridiculous order. I think I can speak for the vast majority of veterans when I say that if you are so twisted as to think any of us wouldn't gladly (and loudly) go to Ft. Leavenworth before obeying an outrageous and unlawful order that would result in the deaths of perhaps 50,000 of the very people we swore to defend, then you, my friend have a very loose screw!! Maybe you and Steven King could get together and discuss the illiteracy of US service people over a couple of beers tonight. I think he lives in Fantasyland, ME. The next time you feel like reaching out, maybe you should keep in touch with yourself. And as far as giving Iraq for evidence, I think you would have to go there yourself. Maybe you could advance the suggestion of military complicity in 911 to some Marines. They'd LOVE it!!

Unidimensional
I clearly explained how whistleblowers might hold their tongues. a) they are patriotic and, even if mistakes were made, they will defend America, b) this was a cooperative effort with the Mossad, who don't mess around, and actually are not bound by our Constitution c) it wasn't their business. On this last point, I will remind you that both Controlled Demolition (the "clean-up crew hired) and Hallyburton have both moved their headquarters to Dubai. Out of the reach of U.S. liberals.

You 'explanation' is completely without merit. Because military professionals are patriotic is precisely WHY we would never let that go down on our witch. You incredibly simplistic view of the military mind amazes me with it's arrogant gall, not to mention its ignorance. Your statements, as well as Steven King's earlier this week, show a truly remarkable lack of knowledge about the people who defend your right to vomit your misguided theories.

There are many levels of military
in the U.S. I am not talking about Marines. But have you heard of Special operations. NORAD?

Oh, sorry. I am if_two, if you hadn't noticed. I had been travelling with my laptop.

On 9-11 there were over 20 special military excercises planned. It may be that 99% of the military was clueless. It has been reported widely that most of the explanation as to why the planes weren't intercepted was confusion, with many saying "Is this part of a drill." Some of those drills actually included false radar blips and the threat of crashing airliners into buildings. But they are still under orders to follow the rules of secrecy and protocol. Which makes it very easy, in fact, a job requirement, to keep your mouth shut and follow orders. The grunts aren't usually offered explanations, are they. I think I know that much.

But once again, don't you see what you are really saying. I believe you feel I am attacking America, or our military. That is an emotional response based on your feeling that your people need to be defended, right or wrong.

That is not how one looks at evidence. So, I would ask you, to try to look at the evidence. I think you will see, that without explosives, the 47 crosslinked internal structural columns made of 4" thick steel at the bottom of the towers, could not have flown away, without cutting charges and massive explosives (which also needed to blow the 250 outer columns and their grid structure.)

In a way, who ever blew those towers did screw up, they overkilled it. Anyone with a brain, should be able to see that a building doesn't pulverize itself and 95% of its mass cannot fly sideways without a vector pushing it to the outside. If gravity caused the building to fall, then there would have been a bigger pile of rubble - but there was nothing left to crush the last few floors. But then, they counted on the U.S. media to defend America against accusations of murder. And, so far, that has worked.


Not plausable
My point is that a key player to this scenario wouldn't play. I don't believe it. I don't care who they operate with. Green Berets, Navy Seals, Force Recon, whomever! It would be the highest treason! You are missing a key element of your theory. As far as you amateur architects and engineers are concerned I say "Where is your data?" As an engineer myself, I can tell you this basic principle: steel, when heated to extreme temperatures, becomes weak and less resistive to stresses. The failure point on both towers was at the site of impact, where the fire was hottest. WTC7 had two 110 story skyscrapers fall right next to it; you can't tell me what kind of damage it sustained, but I bet it was catastrophic. Before it fell, we were debating it's fate in our conference room. My boss (who holds a PhD in mechanical engineering) took even money that it would collapse. He was even close on predicting the time. I don't look on your statements as a personal attack, but I think you're crazy.

Let me get this straight...
...this whole massive cover up is brought to you by the same government that:

Couldn't keep the Water Gate break in quiet. (Yeah different administration, all the same type of top notch thinkers though)

Same government that wasn't able to keep the whole Iran-Contra deal under wraps?

Same administration who can't tap cell phones of terrorists without everyone and his dog knowing about it?

And when do these buildings get wired for demolition, when they're built? So all these explosives just stay strapped to support columns for decades? Know much about explosives and propelants do you? Well then how about detonators? It ain't like the movies, you don't go near a detonator, remote or otherwise, with any type transmiter so you would think in the age of cell phones and two way radios buildings would be going off like popcorn.

Do me a favor, tell me the one about Apollo 11 actually landing in Arizona, I haven't heard that in awhile.

Or maybe how LBJ is the one who really shot JFK.

And don't forget about that carburetor that lets a GTO get 150 miles per gallon, Humble Oil bought that patent and have it and the proto-type locked in a basement. Haven't heard that one since around '79.

You really need some better drugs.

If_two_plus_two_makes_four
then that overstates your IQ by 204.

Riddle me this: If you assume that the buildings were deliberately razed, when and how did the demolitions experts get in to place the explosives?

2+2
you could not be sooooo wrong on your analysis. I have indesputable evidence that a fleet of Martians invaded the US on that day, and only 4 craft got thru. All of the Martians had masks on in order to divert the real culprits. If you need a link, please let me know! I'm sure that I can find one.

2+2
May the gates of Hell open up today and swallow you.

Then you would be wishing for a Sun god to worship...

SSGT, 'bout them Martians...
That is another of those inaccurate stories. Mars was completely out of the galactic gravitational plane of rotation that day.

Them folks was from Venus.

If only Mohammed Atta and the other
ten hijackers had waited, the towers would've gone down without any need to fly planes into them. What an extraordinary fortuitous coincidence that a bunch of Islamic hijackers flew those passenger planes into the twin towers, not only on the same day but at the exact moment they were set to blow. What a fantastic alibi for our government, to have a group of ready-made scapegoats suddenly appear out of nowhere to assist in knocking down the towers.

Couldn't ask for a better plot-line. Hollywood would pay big bucks for that.

USNBHead
It looks like Rosie O’Donnell has signed up on TownHall. 2+2 is obviously a Typical Far Left Liberal Blogger. A Fat, Gutless, Coward of a Mommy’s Boy Crybaby who sits in Mommy’s Basement on Mommy’s Computer and spews GUANO! His Theory is SO INFANTILE it is laughable and so full of holes; you could serve it with Corned Beef on Rye and not be able to tell the difference between it and LEGIT Swiss Cheese.

HEY! 2+2=YOUR IQ! Why don’t you go to a Military Base and spout these LIES!

Call 911 before you do though, YOU WILL need an Ambulance!

GFY, Moron!

Leroy
So what you are saying is it was a bunch of women?




Motley Crue writes:
If only Mohammed Atta and the other
ten hijackers had waited, the towers would've gone down without any need to fly planes into them. What an extraordinary fortuitous coincidence that a bunch of Islamic hijackers flew those passenger planes into the twin towers, not only on the same day but at the exact moment they were set to blow. What a fantastic alibi for our government, to have a group of ready-made scapegoats suddenly appear out of nowhere to assist in knocking down the towers.

Couldn't ask for a better plot-line. Hollywood would pay big bucks for that.

In 2+2's fantasy that's exactly what happened. I don't know about you, but I think he needs some very, very, very strong anti-psychotic meds very, very, very soon.

Georgetwin....
I don't think an ambulance would be in order.

More like the local morgue. Then the taxpayers could skip the expense of the ER and ambulance charges.

LOL
You 9/11 truthers are a bunch of nuts. You know, some people are a little crazy and it's funny. Others are crazy and others view them as tragic and in need of help.

You 9/11 truthers are so nuts you left the point of being humorous long ago, and I'm not sure there's any help for you.

Best wishes, ya pack of loons!

Akagi
I just read your blog on the origin of your name. Very interesting reading. I did know most of these facts at one time, but I have to confess that I forgot many of them. It was nice getting a refresher.

I am curious, and I assure you it is just simple curiosity, are you of Japanese extraction? You should know before you answer that I hold Japan in high regard. I also believe that Japanese Americans are some of the best citizens this nation has. Of course this is a generalization, but it has been my experience nonetheless.

trughes/2+2
Clearly you have some good points to consider. However you have blamed the wrong culprit.

This entire catastrophe was staged by old Beelzebub himself.

Click on this link to see the "evidence""

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/wtcface.asp


LumberJack
Did I say anything about assuming the buildings were razed. Can you read. I said the evidence, angle-cut columns, slag, lakes of molten steel under the buildings, microspheres of steel, explusion of steel beams, pulverization, upward trajectory of explosive collapse, rapid onset after initiation, speed of gravity collapse rate...I could go on, are EVIDENCE of explosives. I see nothing else that could possiblly explain those things.

Would you guys get the difference between inductive thinking, looking at evidence, and deductive thinking, starting with a conclusion?

And I don't have to guess how the demolitions experts got in: There was "work" going on in the elevator shafts for 6 weeks prior to the "event", during which time elevators were locked out. The entire weekend before, the power was turned off for the whole building, meaning that people with servers and data warehouses had to be run on generators. The security firm that was in charge of electronic security for the building was owned by Marvin Bush. Securicom. Oh, did you know GW had a younger brother? Am I making that up.

Why don't you throw a hissy fit and just tell me I'm making that up too. But what ever you do, don't look at facts. They may disturb you.

Lumber. I'm going to need some
very very strong medication, if I have to read any more of this conspiracy garbage. We have a government that so far hasn't managed to get anything right, much less cover it up when they have. Iran-Contra, for one. I'm heading for saner pastures on other threads. Heck, even Wobbie sounds sane in comparison.

Cheers

Bman...
Or as was so well described in that tune of old:

"She was mean,
vicious,
straight razor totin' woman
Lord have mercy..."

Georgetwin
That's a really good answer. Boy, I don't know what to say.

By the way, I forgot, did you actually counter one of my points. Or did you just launch some ad hominems.

BTW, that's Latin. I started studying latin in 5th grade.

But I particularly liked the threat part. That's very effective debating technique. It really convinces people you are right when you have to tell them the U.S. Military will kill me.

Motley Crue - I hope you feel better
When not exposed to disturbing facts. But please, go stick your head in the sand. You are not alone down there.

BmanIII
word is that intel intercepted comms from Mars three days before the attack. Their CIC "Bugs" Bunny gave the marching orders, while Marvin Martian carried out the assault!

Motley Crue
You have not been paying close enough attention. According to the truthers, the hijackers were part of the whole consperacy. I have heard every wacky theory from, "They were really jews who changed their identities" to, "Yes they were arabs, but they were agents hired by the US government to fly the planes."

Motley, the wingnuts who come up with these consperacies do not need logic of factual data on their side. All they need are "inconsistencies" in the official accounts. And that is convenient since every historical event to ever take place has had the odd inconsistency.

The truth is, these people have no idea what it takes to wire structures of that size with demolition charges. It is not something a handfull of janitors could do over a weekend.

But they would have us believe that is what happened. And they would also have us believe that tons of burning fuel and office supplies and furniture did not damage any of the critical connections necessary for the timing required to implode the towers. But I digress. I would love to sit down with any of the truther "experts" because I feel quite confident I could shred every bit of supposed hard core evidence they have without even breaking a sweat.

trughes
Please tell me you are not one of those folks who thinks the twin towers were brought down with demolition charges?


two plus two equal Moron
""I swear to you by the entrails of Jesus (which I really believe was the Sun god all along, so I can swear to it, the only thing that sustains life on this planet) that all the columns were cut into 30 foot sections so they could be loaded on to trucks.""


What kind of cave did you crawl out of?

Idiot truthers like you make me physically sick to my stomach. On one hand you try to convince us that GWB is so stupid he can't tie his own shoes without assistance, then on the other hand you claim he's some evil genius who was able top pull off this amazing conspiracy in a town that Leaks like a sieve.

Which is it 2+2? is he the Moron ort the Evil Genius? It's physically impossible to be both an evil genius and a moron. In yur case I'd say it's only the Latter.

It must be really Lonely Being YOU!

SSGT
Marvin Martian RULES!!!!!!

Even if he is green.

trughes:
Why? And just how do you expect the people who did it, not to talk to someone? The government can't keep secrets. It's leakier than 100 plumbing.

Georgetwin
After Bugs issued the orders for Marvin to attack the twin towers, Marvin had to get permission to pass thru intraspacional territory from Morc from Orc! At first Morc was hesitant until Marvin mentioned BDS, at which point Morc allowed the travel!

BmanIII
I though Marvin was black? OOOps, not to offend anyone here!

trughes
"BTW, that's Latin. I started studying latin in 5th grade. "

Meaning last year, I preume?

Not that anything changes in DelusionalVille, but read this:

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

or for sheer entertainment, this:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07





Trughes. One last comment if I may.
The towers came down starting from the impact point of the passenger jets. That is obvious. They DID NOT collapse from the bottom up. That is also obvious. There was no UPWARD pulverization. Of course there was molten steel at the bottom. Gravity put it there as it did the rubble. You are looking at this through the myopic prism of what you'd like it to be, rather than at the total extraneous enormity of what would have had to be a meticulously coordinated operation between numerous government, military and civilian agencies, not to mention the NYPD and the NY Port police who were in charge of it. Then you have Atta and his bunch. Were they recruited as well?

No. Sorry. You theory just doesn't work. The secrecy required would be an impossibility, given everyone involved.

leroy
you've got most of it right. But do you think they gave up after the first try. You'd think they would have given up after the VietNam debacle, but did they? Read "Legacy of Lies".

The CIA has amazing resources, now, I think the really black op have switched away from the CIA, there were probably too many independent thinkers there, Dick Cheney found that somewhat less reliable than Military Intelligence, which, I think you'll find is moving to the forefront in our intelligence services, at least those that aren't outsourced to Blackwater. Blackwater has the benefit of being dependant on profits, without legislative oversight.

No, these guys do not give up, because they have real power. Do you have any idea how closely Wall Street and the CIA are bound? Have you heard of Bucky Krongaard? and his brother? Come on, you guys, this is not America, these are crooks. Why do you think they cancelled the investigation into the insider trading of put-options on AA and UA stock. Because most of the transactions lead back to Deutsche Bank, where Bucky was a division president. Duh.

I think it was William Colby, who said, "We own everyone of any significance in the major media" . That kind of power breeds arrogance. No they don't give up.

But what's the point. You guys, all have your faith. That's all that really matters. While if you could point out a single a-priori belief of mine, other than the mistaken belief it is possible to communicate with martians, please point that out. I have only presented evidence and, thank you, not one of you has been able to offer a word that is not 100% unsubstantiated assumption.

In logic one says Quod erat demonstrandum, I believe. I've got to get to work.

Article
"He believes, with his spiritual adviser Jeremiah Wright, that we were wrongly led into Iraq by a lying “C student,” and the only reasonable way out is to surrender — admit failure and defeat — and get out."

Speaking of lying "C" and "D" students, Owlgore got people to believe his bovine dung about global warming despite not majoring in science, nor ever cracking the C- mark in any of his electives.

"No pullout could be premature, could come soon enough."

I wish Hugh Rodham had pulled out prematurely circa January 1947...





Also
it must have been a tall order for the POTUS to give up the credit for this evil plan to Bin Laden. Bin Laden must have promised Pres Bush half of Afghanistan to go for it!

Lumberjack
Of course the truth is out, that's how these folks know exactly what happened.

1) The more the government denies something, the more it is true.

2) The more the government tells you about something the less they are really telling you about that something.

C) The more the government expains a something to you the more likely the opposite of that something must be true.

Actually, after my experiences with the military the above attempts at humor are more real than fiction

trughes
"not one of you has been able to offer a word that is not 100% unsubstantiated assumption."

See web sites above. And others I see are becoming angry with you, whereas I just feel sorry for you, to be honest.

trughes writes:
In logic one says Quod erat demonstrandum, I believe. I've got to get to work.

Building those dream castles in the sky. Both you and leroy are citizens in good standing of wolkenuckucksheim.

hey, hey, hey, goodbye.

There is nothing less conservative than pre-emptive war. That is the domain of Hitler and his ilk. Ron Paul was right all along on this issue and all he did was follow the guiding principles of our founders and the constitution. If any good is to come out of the Iraq fiasco it is the awakening of the real conservatives and the destruction of the neocon democrats that have taken over our party.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Ssgt
ONLY after they got approval from The Illuminati.

trughes
common man, everyone knows that Bugs speaks english and Martian! Haven't you seen the cartoons? Man, your completely mis-informed on the facts here. And Morc speaks Na NOO Na NOO. Everyone knows this!

leroy writes:
Lumberjack
Of course the truth is out, that's how these folks know exactly what happened.

1) The more the government denies something, the more it is true.

2) The more the government tells you about something the less they are really telling you about that something.

C) The more the government expains a something to you the more likely the opposite of that something must be true.

Actually, after my experiences with the military the above attempts at humor are more real than fiction

1)Your statements are applicable only if it is a Republican Administration, otherwise anything the Dems tell you is the Gospel truth.

2) Playing with toy soldiers does NOT qualify as experience with the military.

3) Your post is a perfect example of liberal illogic.

SSGT
Maybe there should be legislation forbidding Internet capability in asylums. You know this isn't directed at you, of course, but "others" around here who wear jackets with 16" necks and 75" sleeves, if you get my meaning.

Georgetwin
see, even I left out some important facts here!!
Thanks for saving my good name here!

AZPhil
I just don't get how they type then Phil. I mean seriously, do they use their noses?

Motley Crue - one more
You start out with facts. But then you slip into "would haves". The trouble is your facts are at variance with the films of the events. If you compare the pattern of explosions of this and any high power explosion, you see similarities with streamers going upwards and outwards. Just look at the photos.

Someone else, bubblehead, mentioned the weakening of the steel. But see that is very different from lakes of molten steel. I think you will find not one engineer who will think as you do that a hydro-carbon fire of any magnitude, can melt structural steel, so hot that it rolls like lava down an elevator shaft settling into the basement. That is simply a physical impossibility. The only thing that can do that is thermite, or thermate, which has sulfur added, used as cutting charges.

And believe me, controlled demolition experts, can bring down a building from any point they want. It's called computer controls and wireless communication.

Remember, that the only single piece of evidence that connected the terrorists to the event was passport found, undamaged, on the streets of New York. But maybe he threw it out the window before hitting the building. What do you think? An undamaged passport flying out of a crash that otherwise burned hot enough to melt structural steel.

I will not pursue your hopeless, unverifiable arguments that somebody would have acted in such and such a way.

Correction
wolkenkuckucksheim (cloud cuckooland)

trughes
Evidence? Where?

Columns were cut? Have you got one of those columns handy I could look at? Or maybe this is one of those "everyone knows" things, I bet there's even pictures on the internet somewhere.

Lakes of molten steel? Where, other than "The Government Did It" group nobody mentioned lakes of molten steel.

Slag? Do you know what slag is?

Some elevators were being worked on beforehand? So elevator maintenance is a sign of demolition?

And the elevators were all out of commision for 6 weeks?

A guy named "Bush" has a security firm? Great, I know a guy named Garza who's a deputy sheriff, can we tie that in somewhere?

Speed of collapse indicates explosions? No, it means once something that large starts moving, nothing and I mean nothing is going to slow it down much less stop it. It ain't the movies, something that big does not move in jerks and bounces, when it starts happening it happens.

I gotta go and look for some tin foil now, my head is starting to feel funny.

leroy
"Columns were cut? Have you got one of those columns handy I could look at?"

Of course not - the conspirators destroyed them:)

See my other post - just smile and nod.

Ssgt
PSSST! don't tell Trughes. The Black Helicopters are on the way to his place. Bigfoot is
the Pilot and Elvis is the Navigator.

Lumberjack...
...actually it was supposed to be an example of liberal illogical logic presented in it's own twisted illogical liberal form of logic.

Didn't think you were gonna take it serious.

As to the military, yeah the longer the lecture by the wet nose with the butter bar, the less was getting said.

georgetwin
"PSSST! don't tell Trughes. The Black Helicopters are on the way to his place. Bigfoot is the Pilot and Elvis is the Navigator.'

How unrealistic can you get? The black helicopters will only fly after sunset!!

leroy writes:
Lumberjack...
...actually it was supposed to be an example of liberal illogical logic presented in it's own twisted illogical liberal form of logic.

Didn't think you were gonna take it serious.

As to the military, yeah the longer the lecture by the wet nose with the butter bar, the less was getting said.

Sorry, about that. I do agree about the wet nose Ensign in my case.

SSGT/Georgetwin/Lumberjack
"I just don't get how they type then Phil. I mean seriously, do they use their noses?"

Not sure - since they can't have shoelaces, maybe they slip off their booties and use their feet? Speculation, of course.

"ONLY after they got approval from The Illuminati."

And perhaps Opus Dei...

Here's a sick thought (vomit alert): What if trughes doesn't really believe this tripe, but is merely trying to get Rosie O'Donnell's drawers off?

YOU WERE WARNED...


AZPhil writes:
SSGT/Georgetwin/Lumberjack
"I just don't get how they type then Phil. I mean seriously, do they use their noses?"

Not sure - since they can't have shoelaces, maybe they slip off their booties and use their feet? Speculation, of course.

"ONLY after they got approval from The Illuminati."

And perhaps Opus Dei...

Here's a sick thought (vomit alert): What if trughes doesn't really believe this tripe, but is merely trying to get Rosie O'Donnell's drawers off?

YOU WERE WARNED...

Watch it with the Opus Dei cracks. I anm a Catholic, and Dan Brown got them all wronng

Desperation to get laid, thy name istrughes.

You are All Wrong
It wasn't Martians, It was the Army of Northern Viginia, with elements of the Army of Tennessee in support, that took down the Towers and Bldg. 7. This was only after two Martians airships (See a "Princess of Mars")crashed into them. President Jeff Davis needed the evidence of interaction between the CSA and John Carter (the Warlord of Mars) destroyed.

LJ7392 has it correct: wolkenkucksheim.

(I love to watch these IDIOTS and their 9/11 conspiracy theories. Even Bill Clinton said they were nuts.)

I have a Conspiracy Theory
19 Islamo-fascist pieces-of-sh*t, under direction of Osama bin Laden, boarded four aircraft the morning of 9/11, hijacked them, flew two into the twin towers, one into the Pentagon and one crashed in PA thanks to brave passengers.

The towers fell due to stresses caused by the over-heating of structural steel, WTC 7 fell several hours later due to "earthquake-like" stresses caused by the twin towers falling and other related damage.

bin Laden claims credit...

See?? A conspiracy for sure.

Grey Ghost, now I know your wrong
After what Sherman and his bunch of blue bellies did to Atlanta and all down to the coast, Marrs Bobby and his boys would have never stopped at three puny little buildings, they'd have sacked the whole town.

primus - great conspiracy theory
Only it is disproven by the facts.

AZPhil
that was just PLAIN WRONG of you!!!!!!!!

Just wrong I tell ya.

gotta go puke now, I'll be back.

GT
I also heard that if Bigfoot was not available, Barney was on stand-bye! Never let the mission fail.

Trughes. Really. You write:
"Remember, that the only single piece of evidence that connected the terrorists to the event was passport found, undamaged, on the streets of New York. But maybe he threw it out the window before hitting the building. What do you think? An undamaged passport flying out of a crash that otherwise burned hot enough to melt structural steel. "
------------------------------------------
We saw the planes fly into the towers and the Pentagon, recorded on film and verified by eyewitness accounts. Then we have the actual voice recordings of passengers, and their description of events, and of the hijackers, before flight 93 crashed in a field. More than just any single passport.

So perhaps--given your factual knowledge of such things--you could enlighten us as to the MOTIVATION behind the events of 9/11, and what it profited our government to be involved in this conspiracy.

Oh, shoot, I gotta leave here...
...before a building falls on my head.

Motley
you actually saw the planes hit the towers on TV? I thought that was a mini-series running on every major and minor broadcast network around the world!
Silly me!

leroy - I appreciate your attempt
to confront the facts. But one would ask, you you oppose the facts.

In fact, Marvin Bush is GW's younger brother and he was an owner of the security company in charge of both the WTC and portions of Dulles international airport ( not to mention one of the airlines??). It's just a fact. Feel free to ignore it.

Yes, speed does indicate explosives and cutting charges. Usually, a building that was overdesigned to withstand its own weight by a factor of at least 4x, would provide some resistance to collapse. And do you know what happens when billiard balls hit eachother. Nearly instantaneous and complete transfer of energy (of course recognizing Newton's Law - so they share the energy of collision). Well, then have you seen the results of an auto accident. That is known as a messier form of energy transfer. Steel is bent, friction is huge, sparks are generated, etc. etc. Any engineers willing to confirm that a auto collision is not the same as a billiard ball collision???

Probably, not. I will proceed. Messy collisions, such as even twenty-five floors of a building hitting the bottom 75 floors would fall into the auto-collision. All the energy going into creating sparks, bending steel and pulverizing concrete to dust, takes time, one each floor that it encounters.

It is therefore impossible for such a collision to happen at the speed at which, if dropped from the point of initial impact, a bowling ball would have fallen to earth.

Yes, speed of collapse makes it absolutely impossible that only gravity caused the destruction of the towers, not to mention WTC-7. The reason there was no resistance is that all the columns were pre-cut.

trughes
Why?

AZPhil-Leroy-MCrue-
YOU ARE WRONG! The Double Top Secret Illuminati Stealth Helicopters are invisible and run SILENTLY on fart fumes. ½ an hour before they go up, The Pilot and Navigator eats Grand Slam Breakfast smothered in Chocolate Syrup.

Ssgt
If they think the might need to use force to subdue Trughes, they will send Yosemite Sam.

trughes:
You really expect me to believe that you think the government is so super capable that it could pull off such a feat, yet at the same time a so inept that it screwed up the war, Katrina, etc, etc, etc. You can't have it both ways.

trughes
tell me, what exactly happens to billiard balls when they come in contact with each other when in a vertical free fall?
hmmm
Just wondering

GT
no, Yosemite Sam would be way overkill. I think Foghorn Leghorn will suffice.

trughes
its funny how you compare actions that take place horizontally with the actions of vertical circumstances. Sorry, there is no comparison.

LJ7392
Trughes no doubt belongs to the same group of Morons who call President Bush a Bumbling Moron one day and the next day he is an EVIL GENIUS who MASTERMINDED the dynamiting of the levees. I wonder if TrueScrewLoose ever read The Popular Science Book about 09/11?

Georgetwin/Lumberjack
why is trughes comparing horizontal and vertical events as the same? He sure isn't answering me on it!

trughes
Again, great Marvin Bush owns a security company, so what? What if he owned a carpet cleaning company that did the floors, would that mean they poured gas on the carpets?

Speed has nothing to do with cutting. Makes no difference what the buildings were designed to withstand, once those design parameters are exceeded, all bets are off.

Your attempt to use billiard ball and automobile analogy doesn't illistrate any thing. Billiard balls being, for practical purposes, non-compressive naturally react differently than something like a car which will be subjected to some compression. Has no relevance at all to the collapse of a building however. Although in some respects a car wreck is similar to billiard balls, otherwise both cars would always be found a the exact point of impact.

And unless you weren't watching the news that day, gravity was not all that caused the collapse of the towers. There were a couple of jet liners with fuel bags of fuel, some burning, metal loosing tensil strength from being exposed to heat...couple minor things like that.

And the building did resist collapse, they stood for some time, however once that collapse started it was game over.

So what were you expecting to happen, you were going to see floor number, what 125 fall and hit 124 then there'd be a second or so then they both hit 123 and just keep bouncing down like a cartoon? Doesn't work like that, well okay if you wanted to get into the fine aspects of energy release as a function of quantum mechanics you could make a case for all energy being released in bits, but not at the level we saw occur that day.

Ssgt
Foghorn Leghorn is TOO LOUD! It would have to be Elmer Fudd, he can be vewy, vewy, quiet.

Georgetwin
your killin me!

Ssgt - Why No Answer?
When he is hanging by his feet in his cave, the blood rushes to his head and he passes out.

later
guys and gals. have a great weekend!~

and trughes
using your logic, if the columns were cut into oh say, 50 foot sections. Why wouldn't we see the building bump down 50 feet at a time if things reacted the way you seem to think they should?

Once again, once you have exceeded the design parameters and the structure fails, a structure that large will fail catastrophicaly. Simply puit, she's going down with a bang not a whimper.

trughes
There is no reasoning with people like you. I could spend all day going over the radical flaws in the assertions of 9-11 truthers. But it would be pointless. Frankly I think you and your ilk suffer from a mental disorder, if you actually believe the World Trace Center was pre-wired with explosives. It is clear that you know nothing about demolitions.

And answer me this: why would such a consperacy even bother with hijacked airplanes? Why not just tell us that terrorists planted bombs inside the buildings? And come to think of it, why not make the buildings topple over? When you see a controlled drop on TV, are you aware that they have to specially time the detonation of the explosives to make the buildings implode?
Tell me, why would the government be interested in neatly dropping the buildings when it would take far less time and planning to just topple them over? Yes, I am wasting my time. You watched "Loose Change" a few times and are convinced.

And here is another question? Why did Bush not blame Iraq for 911? And do not tell me that he "hinted" that Iraq was involved because that is a lie. It has also been suggested that Bush was buddies with the Binladen family. So why point the finger of blame at your bud? I could go on and on. But frankly the burden of proof is on you, and in all honesty, your "evidence" sucks. It is so much nonsense.

Leroy
Trughes learned physics from watching cartoons. Remember when Tom the Cat ran through a wall and left a Cat Shape Hole? LMAO!

Bob-Leroy-Ssgt-LJ7392
Trughes disappeared for MONTHS and then shows up again out of nowhere, WTF?!?!?!

Little anecdote
About a year ago a small strip mall near where I live burned down in a fire. To this day they have still not torn down the structure. You can drive past and clearly see the thick steel beams of the second level, sagging down more than a foot in the center. And this was a fairly mild fire in a two story building.

The next time some moron tells you that "Fire won't melt steel" ask him to explain how a gas fired blast furnace manages to do it? The answer? Fire, and high pressure, fast moving air.

When a tall structure catches fire with hot burning jet fuel and other petrol biproducts like plastics and nylon and the like, there is an updraft created where air is sucked up into the superstructure. It not only feeds the fire but causes it to burn at extreme temperatures. YES hot enough to melt steel.

bob/leroy
I'm finally beginning to see it trughes' way.

Think about this: Our "black ops" and intel guys find out that some Arabs are planning to down the WTC sometime in Sep 01. They probably find out in about August.

This is briefed to Bush, who has been itching to go to war with Iraq anyway. (BWAHAHAHA).

He can barely contain his glee, BUT, he thinks, what if the Arabs do this and the building remain standing? AHhhhhh...I have an idea. Quick, get some Blackwater guys in there with dynamite. (what about security?) No worries; my brother's in charge BWAHAHAHA.

Some have second thoughts about the morality of this aftwerwards, and are of course slain.

Now, you might ask for a motive? Don't you see? Arabs flying planes into buildings and killing maybe 1200 people on American soil in broad daylight would NOT p!ss the American people off, BUT (BWAHAHAHA), all of the above PLUS THE TOWERS FALLING will really get them mad.

Then, and I can see Cheny hunched pver a table laughing at this part, after that, I can wait a mere 18 months and invade Iraq, even though there were noi Iraqi citizens in on the bombings.

Get it now????

Georgetwin
"Trughes learned physics from watching cartoons. Remember when Tom the Cat ran through a wall and left a Cat Shape Hole?"

Which reminds me, I saw a roadrunner crossing the road last night on my way home (no, there was no coyote chasing it). They are quick, but to the best of my knowledge, when they run over a cliff, they don't hang there for 12 seconds.

"Trughes disappeared for MONTHS and then shows up again out of nowhere, WTF?!?!?! "

Hmmm...the state nuthouse?

And BTW, my post above is pure LD, so don't take it seriously.

Another quandry for truthers.
How is it the fires resulting from the plane crashes did not damage the critical electrical connections necessary for setting of the "Pre wired explosives" in the towers?

This idea that people could have snuck thousands of pounds of explosives and miles of det-cord into those towers is so asinine, it is laughable. Then they managed to strip all the supports and load bearing members, prep them with the explosives, replace all the dry wall and repaint, making the building look just as it had....and they did it all without anyone noticing. You truthers are perhaps the dumbest people on the face of the earth

AZPhil
Man, I hate doing this but I've got to make some corrections on you.

You needed to spell Bush as Bu$h or Bussshhhh.

And they ain't A-rabs, they are people from not quite all the way to Asia but shortly after you cross most of the African land mass.

You never mentioned Haliburton so that's gonna cost you points.

You never mentioned Bu$h lied, not once and I looked for it twice. That's costing points.

You were able to work Cheney in there, so that helps.

You never mentioned I-Been-Grabbied prison but I guess there's only so many things, then stuff gets unbelievable.

leroy
"Man, I hate doing this but I've got to make some corrections on you."

No worries; I appreciate the help:)

Other thoughts to ponder: GWB was 17 years old and he and the family lived in Texas in Nov 1963. Can he account for his whereabouts around noon on 22 Nov 1963? I heard he was in Dallas. Coincidence?

Later, alternating his time between Skull and Bones meetings and helping with his father's 1988 campaign, I suspect that he and his father were the masterminds behind Iran-Contra and starting the crack rage in L.A. to kill blacks. (The fact that G.W. Bu$h (see; I paid attention) has had two black Secretaires of State is smokescreen).

And in case any blacks lived through that, Bush and Cheney not only steered Hurricane Katrina towards New Orleans (with Cheney's super-secret space-based weapons), they had Blackwater employees down there in advance damaging levees. They are a cagey family and a blight on America, don't you think?

And wasn't G.W. Bush in Memphis on 4 April 1968? Can he prove he wasn't? And if he can, can he prove he didn't know James Earl Ray? Lots of questions for these guys to answer.





re: USNbubblehead writes:
"Whether one agrees with our presence in Iraq or not, leaving suddenly would lead to an even bigger disaster. How DOES one let go of that tiger he has grabbed by the tail? "

Funny, that's exactly what liberals are saying. How can one ignore the bigger disaster of the existing consequences of our actions?

See here's the deal. Your point is exactly the same as liberals. You're doing a body count. Why, if we leave, look at how many innocent people will die?

Whereas liberals look at how many innocent people have *already* died.

Its ironic that Conservatives are unwilling to acknowledge the untold hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis that are dead as a *result* of our actions.

And here you are lamenting the same thing. Look at the number of untold dead Iraqis that will result as a consequence of our actions.

Unless you are lamenting the unquantifiable threat of the terrorists camped.

To wit:

Liberals: 600,000 Iraqi deaths now.

Conservatives: 600,000 Iraqi deaths in the future.


leroy
Speaking of unhinged...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354689,00.html


I will ask you once more Trughes.
"So perhaps--given your factual knowledge of such things--you could enlighten us as to the MOTIVATION behind the events of 9/11, and what it profited our government to be involved in this conspiracy."

Please try to answer this. If not, then I can only assume you are playing devil's advocate purely for the heck of it, and have no factual basis for any of the theories you have expounded.


AP
Conservatives: 600,000 Iraqi deaths in the future.

You forgot a few:

1000 (est) deaths caused by the WTC explosives
900 (est) deaths caused by wrecking the N.O. levees in 2005
500K (est) deaths in Burma, I mean Myanmar, due to global warming caused by Cheney and oil.

VORE DEMOCRAT FOR EVERY OFFICE! STOP THE CARNAGE!!



Vince Neal
"you could enlighten us as to the MOTIVATION behind the events of 9/11, and what it profited our government to be involved in this conspiracy."

I explained this above - Arabs flying planes into buildings and killing maybe 1200 people on American soil in broad daylight would NOT p!ss the American people off, BUT (BWAHAHAHA), all of the above PLUS THE TOWERS FALLING will really get them mad.

Then, and I can see Cheney hunched over a table laughing at this part, after that, I can wait a mere 18 months and invade Iraq, even though there were no Iraqi citizens in on the bombings.

Doesn't that make perfect sense to you?

AP
I must say this is not a very flattering picture of you:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354689,00.html


re: AZPhil writes:
Hi Phil!

AZPhil
You make them too easy.

Young George Bu$h had an alibi for his whereabouts in November 1963. He had a part time job stacking books in a building there in Dalls.

As far as Daddy Bu$h using him in Iran-Contra, well any good lib can tell you Young George had all the best South American contacts, if you get my drift.

You saw right through that whole Katrina thing i see, awful clever of you. Of course you realize now that they know that you know they're going to be keeping a close eye on you, your best bet is don't let on that you know that they know that you know. You know?

We're not talking about the Memphis thing until someone else comes clean over that Sirhan Sirhan frame up.

AP
Hello AP!

Hey, trughes...
...that's it, I don't know why it never came to me before.

Since you folks have already gotten down to the twin towers cover up, which must be real because all the evidence supporting it is missing, now you all can look into the conspiracy to frame Sirhan-Sirhan.

Don't worry if the name doesn't ring a bell go ask mommy or daddy, or maybe your grandparents.

Yeah, it only involved a whole ball room full of witnesses, a murder weapon with finger prints you know, that real shakey stuff.

Speaking of "Defeatists"...
Dear Mr. Mackenzie:

In your column you write: "Let the shameless congressional defeatists explain how the nation — its surrendering forces brought home from Iraq — would avoid the consequences of failure. Despite leftist prattlings, the U.S. must stay in Iraq till the day is done and victory won."

For the record, some of the most severe critics of Pres. Bush and his Iraq policy include:

- Town Hall columnist and Conservative leader, the late William F. Buckley, Jr., who as long ago as early 2006 called the Iraq War "Pres. Bush's failure."

- Sen. John McCain, who for years criticized a "terribly mismanaged" war.

- Town Hall columnist and National Review Editor Rich Lowry who wrote last October that "The U.S. government has never brought to bear its resources in a truly national effort to win (the Iraq War)." Which, considering the fact Pres. Bush promoted the war as being essential to our security and survival, is tantamount to an accusation of treason.

- Town Hall columnist Cliff May wrote on March 20, "One can say the invasion of Iraq was unwise: Before committing troops to battle, a president should have a realistic understanding of what can be achieved, in what time frame, and at what cost. One can say the occupation of Iraq was bungled." Also, May wrote:

"THE RESULT OF SO MANY ERRORS AND MISJUDGMENTS WAS CATASTROPHIC."

And Gov. Mitt Romney has stated that after initial success the Iraq War was "mismanaged. underprepared. underplanned and understaffed."

Not to mention Congressman Ron Paul and Senator Chuck Hagel, two strong Conservatives and fierce critics of the Iraq War.

leroy
"Of course you realize now that they know that you know they're going to be keeping a close eye on you, your best bet is don't let on that you know that they know that you know. You know?"

I'll lie low for a while:)


Motley Crue - hard to believe.
What did you ask me: What motivation??

Are you kidding? Did you hear about the time, three days before sovereignty (Ha!) returned to the Iraqi government, where the U.s. had to fly a special C130 tranport loaded with $9.0 Billion in $100 bills (Iraqi oil money) so they could hand it out to their friends and contractors. Congress tried to get an accounting, but none existed. Does that sound like a partial motivation?

Do you know how much $9 Billion is?

Oh, but I'm sorry. Given the generous and altruistic nature of the CIA and the U.S. Military, what insane, un-patriotic, tin-foil, fool would suggest that that $9 Billion was in any way absconded with. Impossible.

Do you think I am as stupid as you are?

Do you think control of the third largest oil field in the world by a small group of oil men is any kind of motivation?

The whole reason this discussion got started was when I asked, how did they have the Patriot Act written in advance ready to be signed into law by a fully compliant legislature, which, lacking 9-11 would have NEVER happened. In fact, the Project for the New American Century (Fieth, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al.) had written in 1998 that it would take a "New Pearl Harbor" to effect the changes they envisioned.

But see, you can't call them unpatriotic. No. Because they like many of your posters here, including the one I quoted above, was it Skubi?, also believe that the patriot act was needed, that going to war in Iraq and taking over the oil fields would be good for America. The neo-cons, like Hitler, actually believe that war is good for the human spirit, revitilization, struggle, competition.

The Neo-cons wanted this war and they probably considered that America was getting soft and that a small sacrifice would be good for the country.

Don't you see that that is what the neo-cons are all about? But then, you probably think, ignoring that, they would fink out their buddies. I don't.

Trughes
"A passport not damaged is the only evidence of terrorists." What about security cameras in the airport where they boarded the planes?
How the heck do you believe even in that pea-brain you have that they could keep this so secret when lately they can't even keep their jump-off points secret when invading??? Can you say Watergate? Can you say sexual favors? This ranks right up there with the "Expose" about Kennedy(JFK) not dieing in Texas and reporters seeing a body dumped off Annasis' (sp) yacht. They said a heavily bandaged man in a wheelchair was on the yatch and then dumped overboard. All BULLCRAP!!!

Trughes is right.
Read Webster Griffin Tarpley's book 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism. That is the very best book. Author was summa c. laude Princeton. It is sold in bookstores and free online at http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

Poster is right that more research will convincingly point to Israel in tandem with neocons here. There is so much Website for Patriots for Truth is interesting. For tid bits, try the report of the five Israeli army officers, dressed as Palestinians, dancing and high five-ing each other while filming the destruction of 9/11. http://www.sundayherald.com/37707
This incident only had cryptic references reported in Washingtion Post that revealed no substance.
(One poster mentioned Kennedy assassination, and the very best book there (1993), is Final Judgment by Michael Collins Piper. The premise of that book, that Israel in tandem with our CIA, killed JFK due to secret was between JFK and Israel over Israel's desire to develop nuclear weapons, and JFK's opposition, and host of policy changes inimical to Israel's preferences. That was validated by Israeli nuclear scientist Dr. Mordechai Vanunu, on July 25, 2004 when Jerusalem Post reported upon his release from eightteen (18) years of imprisonment that Israel was behind JFK assassination precisely because of JFK's interference with Israel's nuclear ambitions. That report, as with any report adverse to Israel, is not reported by our mainstream media. The book is out of print but an eBook is available online for $10. at http://www.amfirstbooks.com People forget that a jury in Florida, quite to their dismay, concluded that our own government and CIA were involved in JFK's assassination years later; and people forget that JFK himself had leaked through his favorite media source shortly before his death, that if ever there was a coup de tat, it would be led by the CIA which defiantly refused to honor the President's directions and was continuing on like a separate government.


Trughes is right
Read Webster Griffin Tarpley's book 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism. That is the very best book. Author was summa c. laude Princeton. It is sold in bookstores and free online at http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

Poster is right that more research will convincingly point to Israel in tandem with neocons here. There is so much Website for Patriots for Truth is interesting. For tid bits, try the report of the five Israeli army officers, dressed as Palestinians, dancing and high five-ing each other while filming the destruction of 9/11. http://www.sundayherald.com/37707
This incident only had cryptic references reported in Washingtion Post that revealed no substance.

(One poster mentioned Kennedy assassination, and the very best book there (1993), is Final Judgment by Michael Collins Piper. The premise of that book, that Israel in tandem with our CIA, killed JFK due to secret was between JFK and Israel over Israel's desire to develop nuclear weapons, and JFK's opposition, and host of policy changes inimical to Israel's preferences. That was validated by Israeli nuclear scientist Dr. Mordechai Vanunu, on July 25, 2004 when Jerusalem Post reported upon his release from eightteen (18) years of imprisonment that Israel was behind JFK assassination precisely because of JFK's interference with Israel's nuclear ambitions. That report, as with any report adverse to Israel, is not reported by our mainstream media. The book is out of print but an eBook is available online for $10. at http://www.amfirstbooks.com People forget that a jury in Florida, quite to their dismay, concluded that our own government and CIA were involved in JFK's assassination years later; and people forget that JFK himself had leaked through his favorite media source shortly before his death, that if ever there was a coup de tat, it would be led by the CIA which defiantly refused to honor the President's directions and was continuing on like a separate government.

J.R. - I really appreciate
finding one person who has seen how transparent the scam, how complete the propaganda, how medieval the accusations of heresy, and the love of ignorance.

I will definitely look up the Kennedy thing. Talk about coup d'Etat. I had never heard the Israel connection to Kennedy. But you know about the U.S.S. Liberty. Isreal nearly sank one of our listening posts in the Mediterranean, just before the 1967 war. The sailors wired a radio and called for help. The fighters took off from a AC carrier, but on orders from LBJ, they were turned around.

And you know that Nancy Pelosi's father was the only member of FDR's cabinet that supported the foundation of Israel, and so, is named as one of the Founders of that nation. Argentinian jew. Little wonder she became the first woman speaker of the house.

Look up Zeitgeistthemovie.com. Fantastic. I always advise people the first few minutes of lecture is sort of a waste of time.

Imagine what it would have been like as Galileo or Copernicus (but he whimped out I think and didn't publish work that was really borrowed from Aristarchus 2000 years before, until late in his life.) We live in a fascinating time, the times that "try men's souls" as Thomas Paine wrote.


keep faith
Few things in history have been more bodacious and more outrageous than 9/11. But in our country, truth inimical to a certain agenda is not permitted to come out in sufficient quantity to register with the masses. When it is published, it will be buried by the weight of counter propaganda 1000 times more voluminous. And isolated disclosures have no effect, like our mainstream media refused to report USS Liberty for 30 years (until Israel could come out with its own false spin documentary), but San Antonio and Jackson Miss did report it, but insufficient to register.

Virtually all terrorism emanates from intelligence agencies, with 99% of it from Mossad, often in tandem with our own CIA --as false flag operations designed to induce conflict and police state. Not only does 9/11 evidence point to Mossad, but so does London’s 7/7 (2005?) simultaneous bombings of subway stations during a planned anti-terrorism drill (as Mossad agent called in acknowledging simultaneous explosions immediately before any disclosure that they were simultaneous). Our superstar former FBI terrorist tracker, John O'Neal, suspected Israel/Mossad in the bombing of USS Cole and was removed from that investigation by pressure from Jews in government on account of that suspicion. O'Neal was later hired as head of security for World Trade Towers, slated to start on the eve of 9/11. Although he had been reported missing for a couple of days in advance of 9/11, his body was found intact in ruins of 9/11.

Few Americans know, or could understand, the traditional affinity of neocons for Marxism or the destruction of America as their goal; and could never imagine how they got to positions of power and influence. Or coordinated articles and books financed by CIA to achieve desired results (such as acceptance of torture, use of nuclear weapons, fear of terrorism, induce military spending, police state, change demographics of country, etc.)

Thanks for site.



AZPhil, AP, J.R. and the rest
I'm thoroughly enjoying all of this! Please continue, but before you do.......

WHATEVER YOU'RE SMOKING, CAN YOU PASS IT TO THE LEFT?

JR and Trughes
Come'on boys.... Tell the truth. You both have done a LOT of drugs in your time.

Kudos to Deerhunter, inthenow and cubecommander! You boys saved me a lot of time refuting the paranoids.

I wonder how JR and Trughes will rationalize victory in the War on Terror when we win? Let me guess... It's all about oil?

FISA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nancy Pelosi STILL hasn't allowed a vote on the FISA reauthorization bill to come to the floor of the House yet. That means national defense is still weakened due to the Pelosi's foolhardiness and vain ambition. Blood is on her hands (and Steny Hoyer's) for attacks that could have been thwarted but for her actions.

And how about trying to stick $70 billion worth of pork in the EMERGENCY defense reauthorization bill unrelated to defense at all?
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