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Monday, June 29, 2009
Robert Knight :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hate Crimes Bill Would Federalize Criminal Law, Revive Double Jeopardy
by Robert Knight
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Among its many defects, the proposed federal hate crimes bill virtually ensures that some defendants will face double jeopardy, whatever the outcome of their cases. It all depends on the whims of the folks occupying the Attorney General’s office, who may want to score political points at a defendant’s expense.

The Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act (S. 909) now before the Senate, establishes “thought crime,” violates equal protection by making some victims more important than others, elevates “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” to be equivalent to civil rights categories like race, and greatly expands the federal role in criminal law.

In short, it’s a grab bag of ways to violate genuine constitutional rights while addressing a non-issue. There is no compelling evidence that bias-motivated crimes are not being handled properly and perpetrators punished.

One of the bill’s more dangerous features is its boldly stated authorization for the feds to intervene in any case they determine has not met “the federal interest in eradicating bias-motivated violence." Under current law, the feds can narrowly invoke their authority in cases where a “hate crime” has prevented someone from engaging in federally protected activities such as voting. The new law opens wide the door for the feds to barge in.

Gail Heriot, a member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, was one of two (out of six) witnesses testifying against the bill on June 25 before the Senate Judiciary Committee. She laid out precisely how the law could be abused, and concluded:

No one can deny the horror of violent crimes inspired by hatred of any kind. This is something upon which all decent people can agree. But it is precisely in those situations–where all decent people agree on the need to ‘do something’–that mistakes are made. Passage of the vaguely-worded prohibitions in S. 909 would be a giant step toward the federalization of all crime. Given the many civil liberties issues that would raise, including the routine potential of double jeopardy prosecutions, this is a step that members of the Senate should think twice before they take.
In addition, the bill’s wording guarantees future interpretive mischief, Heriot notes:
Back in 1998, attorneys at the Department of Justice, eager to expand federal authority, drafted language for the bill that would create federal jurisdiction over many cases that can't honestly be regarded as hate crimes–at least not as that term is understood by most Americans. The fact is that, despite the misleading use of the words "hate crime," [the bill] does not actually require that the defendant be inspired by hatred in order to convict. It is sufficient if he acts ‘because of’ someone's actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability. Consider:

*Rapists are seldom indifferent to the gender of their victims. They are always chosen ‘because of’ their gender.

*A thief might well steal only from the disabled because, in general, they are less able to defend themselves. Literally, they're chosen ‘because of’ their disability.

* Suppose a burglar is surprised when the husband and wife who reside in the home return earlier than expected. The burglar shoots the husband and kills him, but finding himself unable to shoot a woman, turns and runs. Again, literally, the husband was killed ‘because of’ his gender.

The House version of the bill passed in April. President Obama said he wants to sign it before the August recess.

This bill is a grave threat to America’s legal heritage of judging actions rather than thoughts or beliefs, and it will politicize law enforcement. Beyond the unfairness of excluding some groups, such as the elderly, the homeless, veterans and children, the proposed law advances an underlying, ambitious agenda to punish individuals and groups that hold traditional values.

During the Supreme Court hearings on the Boy Scouts case (Boy Scouts of America vs. Dale, 2000), the Rev. Rob Schenck of the National Clergy Council was sitting next to the White House liaison on gay and lesbian issues. Thinking he was of like mind, she whispered to him: “We’re not going to win this case, but that’s okay. Once we get ‘hate crime’ laws on the books, we’re going to go after the Scouts and all the other bigots.”

Why would she say that? Could it be that the bill will lay the foundation for suppressing groups with traditional values?

S. 909 adds “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” to a list of specially protected classes such as race, ethnicity, sex and religion. Congress would thus create newly minted “civil rights” based on sexual vagaries. Like “sexual orientation,” “gender identity” is fluid, and it includes transvestitism (cross-dressing) and transsexualism. It is notable that former homosexuals, or “ex-gays,” perhaps the most victimized group based on “sexual orientation” perceptions, have not been mentioned as being covered by this bill. In the House, even an amendment to exclude “pedophilia” was defeated.

The law essentially criminalizes views or beliefs. Defendants’ speech, writing, reading materials and organizational memberships would become key evidence to establish a “hate crime.”

Some language was inserted to assuage free speech and liberty concerns, but American Civil Rights Union Senior Legal Analyst Ken Klukowski observes: “It’s only a statement of the obvious, so it has no legal effect. No statute can abridge constitutionally-protected speech. If any speech is burdened, and the speaker files suit, then the process and the result is the same … [This] is just there to help pass the bill by giving people a talking point to say ‘this law does nothing to violate anyone's free speech rights.’ It makes no difference in court whatsoever.”

The tendency to equate conservative views with “extremism” was on display earlier this year when a revealing memo surfaced at the Department of Homeland Security and for which Secretary Janet Napolitano was forced to apologize. The memo, “Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment,” listed as candidates for “violent radicalization” such Americans as returning veterans from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, people who oppose illegal immigration and gun control, and those who warn of losing American sovereignty to globalism. This characterization of millions of Americans as security threats should give everyone pause about passing laws that redefine legal protection based on group status.

The bill also represents yet another abuse of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause, using it to justify federal intervention upon the flimsiest tie-ins to interstate trade.

In 2007, America had more than 11 million incidents of violence or property crime, of which 7,624 incidents were classified as “hate crimes.” Not exactly an epidemic of “hate” in a nation of more than 300 million.

The proposed law will politicize crime, leading to pressure on police and prosecutors to devote more of their limited resources to some victims over others. If you doubt this, consider the tsunami of media accompanying the Matthew Shepard case in Wyoming in 1998, while the murder of Kristen Lamb, an eight-year-old girl, a month before was virtually ignored.

Hate crime laws lay the groundwork for assaults on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. We can look to our northern neighbor for clues about what happens when such laws are enacted. In Saskatchewan, Canada, a newspaper publisher and a man who placed a newspaper ad faced jail and were fined $4,500 each, merely for running an ad containing references to several Bible verses regarding homosexuality. A college teacher who wrote a letter to the editor affirming traditional morality was suspended. And best-selling author Mark Steyn (America Alone), has faced charges in national and provincial tribunals for the supposed “hate crime” of reporting what Muslim leaders in Europe themselves say about changing demographics.

The Senate should think long and hard before saddling Americans with this kind of dangerous nonsense.

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About The Author

Robert Knight is a Senior Writer/Correspondent for Coral Ridge Ministries and a Senior Fellow for the American Civil Rights Union.
 
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Civil Rights Under Attack
Although, I personally am so far to the left that even the democrats appear to me to be "right-wing," I consider myself to be a strict constitutionalist. It is my opinion that since its inception there has been an organized and systematic assault by the conservatives in the United States on the civil liberties written into the US Constitution. The “War on Drugs”; “War on Terror”; “War on Communism” and a host of other wars waged by the right wing are really nothing more than a War on People--an excuse to erode civil rights to the point of non-existence. I invite you to my website devoted to raising awareness on this puritan attack on freedom: http://pltcldscsn.blogspot.com/

Sorry, I quoted the wrong person..
Sorry tibby, I quoted the above as coming from you when it was really 'Useful Idiots'.

So then my above question is now re-directed as appropriate. :)

Sorry again about the misquote.

tibby #48
You said: "The kind of Police Officer or DA who would not prosecute someone who assaulted a Black man or a Gay man is still the same type of Police Officer or DA who will ignore any hate crimes legislation."

And you don't see do you? With the hate crimes laws, if an officer or DA did not do their job because of anti-gay bias, then the Federal authorities would have jurisdiction to take over the case and ensure the right things happened. This is exactly what this type of legislation protects against.

And as Jeffrey pointed out, Christians are already covered by similar legislation.

tibby
Christians ARE covered by hate crimes legislation, dating from 1969.

You were saying?

LoveIsEqual

I agree, all laws should be enforced equally. But since they are not, we don't need to pile on more laws that are not going to be enforced equally. In fact we should be reducing the number and complexities of laws so the voters can better understand laws that are not being enforced equally.

The kind of Police Officer or DA who would not prosecute someone who assaulted a Black man or a Gay man is still the same type of Police Officer or DA who will ignore any hate crimes legislation.

Hate Crimes legislation solves nothing but may even make the smoke and mirrors of the legal system more complex to understand.

For example, If there was no Federal Hate Crimes Legislation, I would not be angry at Janet Reno for failing to investigate an obvious hate crime and victimization of a New York Church. She and the Federal Government would not be part of the equation.

tibby #45
You said: "It would be an interesting experiment to attempt a national referendum to enact "Hate Crimes" legislation against those who speak of Christians in the same manner that existing or proposed legislation codify "Hate Speech" against gays for example."

Fine, except that you operate on the incorrect presumption that this bill outlaws speech or thought.

This bill nor any other outlaws 'speech' or 'thought'. This is nothing but a scare tactic to get people to vote against it. This bill addresses ACTION based on hate, such as assault, murder, etc. ACTION, NOT THOUGHT and NOT speech.

Show me anywhere in this bill which attempts to prohibit anyone's free speech Constitutional Right.

Useful Idiots #44
You said: "When Black Churches or Jewish Synagugues are vandalized, FBI agents are dispatced within 24 hours to investigate and bring the perpetrators to justice under hate crimes legislation.

When a New York City Church was getting repeatedly Vandalize, Janet Reno refused to assign any agents to investigate and prosecute."

You are correct that this is wrong. Absolutely agreed that it needs to be applied equally.

It does not however mean that hate crimes laws are inherently wrong. When you have bias which prevents proper investigation and apprehension of the perpetrators, then someone must step in and ensure the right things get done to bring to justice those responsible.

If this kind of bias did not exist, there would be no reason to have hate crimes laws, but the sad reality is that this kind of bias does exist.

1984 in 2009
It would be an interesting experiment to attempt a national referendum to enact "Hate Crimes" legislation against those who speak of Christians in the same manner that existing or proposed legislation codify "Hate Speech" against gays for example.

Most would dismiss the idea as a joke and absurd. But it would be interesting to see if the liberals were then to get a little nervous that such a move were to succeed. I am beginning to believe that many liberals do not understand the Constitution.

A "level playing field" and "fairness" are words and phrases bandied about. On the surface they appear to sound good. Libs are good at slogans that catch the ear. As time goes on you realize that these are code words for retribution.

Isn't it fascinating how George Orwell had these people nailed so many years ago?

45caliber

Another problem with these laws is they are not enforced equally.

When Black Churches or Jewish Synagugues are vandalized, FBI agents are dispatced within 24 hours to investigate and bring the perpetrators to justice under hate crimes legislation.

When a New York City Church was getting repeatedly Vandalize, Janet Reno refused to assign any agents to investigate and prosecute.

When Police beat Rodney King and were later found not guilty by a Jury, the federal Government prosecuted the officers using the same evidence for violation of Civil Rights.

When O.J. Simpson was found not guilty, the Federal Government never considered prosecution for violating Nicole Brown Simpson & Ron Goldman's civil rights when there is no greater civil right than the right to live.

So people who support these laws not only support repealing "Double Jeopardy", they also support repealing "Equal Protection under the Law".

45caliber, surely you are not serious.
First, you are very presumptious indeed to even suggest that I believe in double jeopardy or anything of the kind! Really, who do you think you are to make that accusation?

NO, I do NOT believe in double jeopardy. That is NOT what this or any other hate crime law is about, it is about ensuring that the appropriate resources are applied to investigate and apprehend the guilty party. This is no more about double jeopardy than the ALREADY existing hate crime laws covering race or anything else.

For example I thought OJ Simpsom was guilty as he*l but when he was found to be innocent by a jury of his peers I was the first one to say it should be over. I think it was wrong to launch a ‘civil’ case against him despite how much I personally thought he deserved everything he got. I know this is criminal vs civil and they are not the same but I am just trying to illustrate a point here. How can one be found innocent of a ‘criminal’ offense but then be found liable in ‘civil’ case for the very same thing?

The real point here is that you are completely twisting what hate crimes bills are all about. And yes in many areas that are anti-gay bias that gets in the way of a proper investigation and that is wrong. It is NOT about speech and it is NOT about double jeopardy! Once the perpetrator is caught then I agree the punishment should be the same but there is no way that bias in the legal system should result in someone getting away with a crime and it does happen whether you like to admit it or not.

LovelsEqual
Actually you are badly wrong about the bill. It opens up whole new areas. I don't care if you are gay, you are no more right to protection under the law than I am and I have no more right than you do. If either of us is murdered, we deserve the law to find out who did it and punish them - equally.

On the other hand, our law says that if someone is found innocent that they cannot be tried again for the same crime. Calling it by another name does not change the fact that one crime was committed. If someone is found innocent of killing a person of any race, gender, sexual feelings, or whatever else, why should that person be tried again by calling it a hate crime or a violation of someone's civil rights? What civil rights are they talking about? Is it hate to call someone a bad name? If so, I know a lot of black people who must be guilty since they call each other by the n-word all the time. Does that mean they are guilty of hate and therefore should be put in jail for ten years or so?

You say that gay people cannot get justice in some areas of the U.S. Personally, if I knew that the local law wouldn't protect me or attemtp to punish someone who harmed me, I'd move to a place where they did ... even if it was another country. If I couldn't, I'd try to - peacefully - get enough local people to agree that the law is wrong. But I wouldn't go out of my way to anger those people as you and others seem to want to do.

And I certainly wouldn't be trying to get people who were found innocent of a crime tried again and again until the jury came back with a verdict I liked.

Glenn #40
We don't care if you don't like (or even hate) homosxuals. That is NOT what hate crimes laws are for. Speech is NOT crime and is guaranteed by the Constitution except in rare cases where it is in imminent danger of creating anarchy or violence. You well know that I am sure.

I've already agreed that murder is murder regardless of the reason behind it. But the real intent of any hate crimes bills are to ensure that it gets adequate attention and resources applied to apprehend the guilty person! As my example above: if 5 witnesses to a murder state that in the process of committing that crime they heard the perpetrators all yell anti-gay slurs, it IS sufficient evidence to treat that as a hate crime for INVESTIGATION purposes.

Crimes committed solely on the basis of hatred of a particular disliked group is intended to terrorize and victimize an entire community and yes Hate Crimes legislation is appropriate to deal with it. Too many times, local authorities look the other way to a degree and/or don’t apply the proper resources toward apprehending the guilty party. Hate Crimes bills prevent local bias from getting in the way of the investigation and also allows the Federal authorities to step in when this is seen. It ALSO allows local authorities to REQUEST Federal assistance if desired.

Any crime committed solely on the basis of hatred (whether it be gays, other races, etc) are a form of terrorism and all of society suffers the consequences.

Hate crime laws
are, again, for one purpose only: to silence all opposition. A person should NEVER be given a stiffer sentence just because he used a slur in the process of his crime; that is making thought criminal. The main thing really is the definition of "hate." With the gay culture, if you say homosexual behavior is wrong, immoral or perverse, etc, then that becomes automatic "hate speech." Since when is differing opinion "hate"? I say fornication is also wrong, but no one claims I hate fornicators. I say adultery is wrong, but no one says I hate adulterers. BUT, when I say homosexual behavior is wrong, I'm automatically guilty of "hate speech" and in Europe and Canada I have to pay stiff fines and/or spend time in jail. THAT is what this hate crime bill will lead to here - that is how it started in the other countries. THERE IS NO TRUE JUSTIFICATION FOR HATE CRIME LAWS! They are only there to silence Christians.

The Matthew Shepard Act
no more outlaws 'thought' than the already existing hate crimes bills protecting race or any other group! This completely ludicrous scare tactic has prevented this bill from passing until now, but is not likely going to work this time.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber stated somehwere above (paraphrased) that murder is murder and the punishment should be the same. Hey, you know what you get no argument from me on that! You also stated that motivation can be used for the 'investigation' phase of a crime. Again, no argument from me! As far as proof goes, no society has yet invented a 100% fool-proof conviction process. E.g., some sadly are improperly convicted. How many are convicted of murder or some other crime without absolute iron-clad DNA evidence or some such? In our society proof takes many forms, including eye witness accounts, motive, opportunity and the list goes on and on! Not even eye-witness accounts are truly 100% proof of a crime but it is certainly used as part of the process of the case against the accused. If 5 people witness a murder and all agree in their accounts of what happened, it will likely be 50% or more of the proof required for a conviction. If 5 people are witness to a murder in which they all agree they heard the perpetrators yell anti-gay slurs as they are viciously beating someone, this is sufficient evidence to treat it as a Hate Crime.

The Matthew Shepard act is for the most part to ensure that the proper resources are brought to bear in terms of investigating and bringing to justice those responsible. Sadly in many cases (more in some parts of the country than others) crimes against homosexuals are to one degree or another swept under the rug so to speak and given only minimal attention. These cases happen and this bill would ensure that such crimes are given the attention they deserve.

Its a done deal
My opinion only:
The "hate crimes act" WILL PASS, whether as S-909 or an Amendment on some unrelated Bill. Why" Because the liberals/leftists have the U.S. locked in: HOUSE, SENATE,& PREZ. There are
enough "globalist/one worlders" in power to bring America down. It seems to be their goal,
and looking at the first 5-6 months of THIS
Congress/Administration/Prez.. they are succeeding. The vast majority of liberals in office, just don't care....what YOU think!
I lay much blame on our MSM, which I see as a
"controlled/propaganderized press" than the "free press" as given us Consitutionally.
Too many of them are Obama-ites, like the follwers of the Pied Piper. They withhold what
I believe is REPORTABLE NEWS.
We, who go to these Conservative sites SEE the
handwriting on the wall, and apparently we CARE
or we'd be like the majority of Americans who are more interested in "Survivor" or "AMF.
I believe our Treasury has purposely been "sacked," as thoroughly as a horde of marauders would accomplish, having taken over a
country by force. We've become the world's
greatest DEBTOR NATION, and still D.C. and the
U.N. want to wring the blood out of us turnips.
Being a Christian, I believe this nation has become so vile and evil (biggest exporters of
Porn), and we have turned our faces from God, that He need not wreak vengeance upon us: we are doing it ourselves, though DC/MSM surely must take a lion's share of blame.
"If my people, who are called by My Name will
humble themselves AND pray AND seek My face AND turn from their wicked ways, THEN I will hear
from Heaven AND will forgive their sin AND heal
their land." Thus saith the Lord.
Join us (hopefully 40K churches) in that prayer... and MEAN IT, on July 5th.

Double Jeopardy

45caliber is exactly right. Little by little the Federal Government has been using these "Thought Crimes" to violate Double Jeopardy protections.

Go ahead America. You will get the government you deserve.

arguments that weaken their case
The worry here seems to be that if one is a minister who preaches about the deviancy of homosexuals then one will need to be careful that the person one assaults does not happen to accidentally be homosexual, or something like that. But people who go around preaching that a certain group is deviant and then goes around assaulting members of that group probably is motivated by hatred. I suppose there could be an example of bad luck there.

There are difficult questions surrounding the issue of hate crimes. For one thing it is true that our laws against murder tend to make hate crime laws regarding murder irrelevant. There was a time when one could imagine areas that winked at murder because the victim was gay as they used to do with black victims, but that does not seem to be a problem.

But when Knight tries to fill in the actual harms that will come from this bill, most of them do not seem too problematic. It is not clear whether a burglar who targets handicap victims not because he hates them but because they are easy targets is really covered under the law. But should we really be bothered if they are?

I am actually open to an argument that this hate crime bill is a bad one. But it probably should be made by someone who can hide his hatred of homosexuals better than Knight can.

The Mathew Shepard Law
The men who killed Mathew Shepard stated that they went to the bar that night to find someone to rob and kill. They didn't care who it might be. They chose him simply because it was easy to lure him outside. They received the death penalty for murdering him.

Tell me, what worse punishment could they have received if they had also been convicted of some sort of hate crime against him? Another five years in prison?

Considering that our prisons are over crowded now, which group of criminals do you want released to allow room for the hate crimes criminals?

Hate Crime laws
are used around the world already to silence any opposing viewpoints. THey will be used here to do the same as soon as the activists start their campaigns. Already in the U.S. people have been found guilty of hate thought when they refuse to photograph same-sex anti-marriage or refuse to artificially insemminate lesbians. The hate crime law is only about suppressing those who want to bring some sanity back into society by speaking against homosexual bahavior.

Jeffrey and your ilk: Fred Phelps is NOT a Christian - his church is a cult made up mostly of his family and he has no idea what the Bible is about. But your twisting Levitial passages out of their context show you also have no idea what the Bible is about. PHelps is an affront to true Christianity.

As for SkorpioG, there is such a thing as a moral standard, and that's why it is not just our opinion that homosexual bahavior is wrong. And for your education, real Christians do indeed condemn unbiblical divorces, as well as condemning all sexual sins and not just homosexuality.

Joel-de
I agree with your comments on law and punishment. But then - there are the people who say that punishment for blank crime is fine but NOT if it happens to them!

For instance, a Congressman was mugged outside his office several years ago. He immediately wanted a law passed making it a manditory death penalty to mug Congressmen.

Lawyers and judges today are trying to insist that a crime against one of them should be more severe than even one against a police officer. (Although how you can get more severe than the death penalty I don't know) But I agree with you. The fact that they are lawyers doesn't mean a thing to me as far as punishment is concerned.

Even the murderers of Shepard, who the Hate Crime bill is named after, got the worst sentence they have. Being found guilty of the Hate Crimes also wouldn't have given them anything else.

Government already does double jeapardy
And then some.

A few years ago a patrol of Marines were on the Texas border when a young man on the Mexican side of the border started shooting at them. After several attempts to get him to stop one of the Marines, whose lives were in danger, shot and killed him.

The government expressed concern to Mexico and demanded the Marine be tried for murder. The military court found him innocent. So the government insisted he had been tried in the wrong court. He was tried again in a civilian court here in Texas - and was again found innocent. So the government tried him for the case in federal court on 'violation of civil rights'. He was again found innocent - primarily because he was of Mexican descent himself. That was basically the only thing that saved him.

So he was tried THREE times by the government for the same 'crime' - shooting back when he was shot at. This 'Hate Crimes' bill would only open up many more chances for the government to try someone several times because some bureaocrat wants to make points somewhere.

Let your Senators know to vote AGAINST this bad bill.

Sqrt
Ignorance of the law is no defense. From religioustolerance.org:

“Traditional hate crime legislation protects persons because of "his race, color, religion or national origin," as in the case of the 1969 federal hate crimes law. (18 U.S.C. Section 245). Most state laws now include additional protected groups. Some laws are restrictive and only protect a member of a group if she/he is involved in specific activities. For example, the 1969 federal law only applies if the crime happens when a person is attending a public school or is at work or participating in one of four other "federally protected activities."”

If someone attacks and harms someone for being a Christian, that crime gets special scrutiny from the federal government. So Christians have received heightened federal protection for 40 years now. Gays have no such protection.

I fail understand why the author believes Christians deserve special protection from the federal government, but gays do not. If you agree with the author, please explain to me why.

Robert in AZ
Your thought processes, as usual, are muddled. I never said Christians other than Fred Phelps are unfaithful. You certainly read into comments things that aren’t there. Fred Phelps accurately reflects the biblical hatred for homosexuality and homosexuals. He only falls short, as he rants against homosexuals, when he fails to advocate that they be put to death, as the Bible instructs. Isn’t that what Leviticus, which Christians love to cite, says?

Christians writers, like this author, are so nervous about being able to denounce homosexuals that they’re now expressing public concern about the rights of rapists, thieves and burglars! That’s how desperate Christian leadership is to maintain the use of homosexual/same-sex marriage hatred to unify its flock.

Another Knight Gem
Jeffrey hit the nail on the head. So-called Christians don't want to be made to feel bad about their dislike and disdain for homosexuality. They want to feel good about condemning their fellow citizens and don't like being told how they sound.

David from OH illustrates, "You see, we do not aim at homosexuals, but at all sexual acts outside of marriage between a man and woman," and, "...the same God who wanted me to stop stealing also wanted me to be sexually in line with His design," and, "Now, if I preach to others and want to share that joy and point to a beautiful purpose for sexuality you say I am hating someone. That it should be criminal. That I should be ashamed."

No, you shouldn't be ashamed, but should recognize that these are your religious beliefs and opinions and may not be shared by others. Further, harping on the gays when your side is silent on divorce makes you look hypocritical, since you appear to be picking and choosing what to believe, and especially what beliefs to act on.

Robert @12:45AM & 12:48AM
A well done answer, sir, good job.

Mind you though, there were PLENTY of vegetarian dinosaurs who wouldn't even look at PETA members, much less eat them. It was a humorous picture though. (As I'm vegetarian myself, I can almost sympathize with the PETA loons...but darn it, they're lunatics! Maybe I should picture a brontosaurus stepping on one by accident...whoops, a PETA sandwich!)

i

Round 3.
In your epistle to Robert@12:29AM, you write, "Faithful Christians, like Fred Phelps, hate homosexuality...It’s pretty hard not to say that Christianity hates a group, when the main religious text, the Bible, says members of that group should be put to death...If Christians want to make a priority of hating homosexuals, as they appear to want to do, there might be a bit of a PR problem but that’s a choice Christians can make: reject their religion’s hatred of homosexuality and homosexuals, or embrace it, and risk social disapproval."

Gee, that's proof positive that Christians hate homosexuals (or at least faithful ones), isn't it--it's in the holy book. I guess you also say that Muslims hate Jews, Christians or for that matter any non-Muslims, and even Muslims if they happen to be women. After all, it's in the Q'ran. Funny how I never hear you "sticking it" to Muslims--I must have missed that missive.

In any case, do tell how we deal with those other writings in the Bible: "Thou shalt not kill", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" "Love your neighbor as yourself". Wow, what a conundrum! Perhaps it's as we've always told folks like you, Christians should hate the sin and not the sinner. Except it's more like reject rahter than hate the sin.

And that's the lay of the land, in MY opinion. I regard that the fact homosexuals, and you, keep telling people that Christians hate homosexuals is nothing more than a ruse to deflect attention away from their embrace of sin. The fact that homosexuals, and you, try so hard to force Christians to reject our faith and embrace homosexuality means that in their hearts, and in your heart, lies the fear that homosexuality is NOT normal, NOT right, NOT in accordance with God's law.

Like the Bard said, methinks they do protest too much.

i

Willdbill@11:53PM
"Plenty of law and consequences already exists to deter criminal activity. It is all about writing sexual orientation into Federal Law and creating a class of victims who will utilize the new law and the courts to their advantage."

You nailed it to the wall my man!

i

Round 2, Jeffrey
Re Jeffrey's comment to Ms Kelly:

"If I've stated any falsehoods, please feel free to correct them. Christians are protected by hate crimes law; why can't gay people be similarly protected?"

Please elucidate and give citations by URL; which "hate crimes law" specifically protects Christians, but bans gays from protection? I've been around the block, but I have never heard of one, and I don't think you will be able to prove that one exists as I've defined the question--which by the way is YOUR definition. Laws, unnecessary ones in my opinion, "protect" against "hate crimes" by race, creed or color; the new bill seeks to add various versions of sexual "persuasion" to the list of "protected."

The purpose a state or local "hate crime" law exists is to add a few years of punishment. The ONLY REASON for a FEDERAL "hate crime" law to be enacted is to bypass double jeopardy protection...and we already have that served up with the Civil Rights Act. "Can't convict them racists at Duke, don't worry, we'll get 'em for you Rev. Sharpton."

The superb fact is, there isn't enough unpunished violent crime against gays--for being gay--to warrant this legislation.

This is nothing more than gays attempting to force everyone to tell them they're NOT doing anything wrong. And the reason they are SO desperate to have everyone tell them that is they feel that, deep down inside, what they do sexually is immoral, socially wrong, and against God's laws.

(IMHO, I think that if they DIDN'T feel that way deep, deep down inside, their homosexual "lifestyle" would be so appealing to them. For them, the "dirtier" the sex, the better if feels. Heterosexuality is just too dull for them.)

i

Jeffrey@10:28PM
Sorry to see we share a state; we certainly do not share views.

"The author falsely says that it criminalizes thoughts or beliefs. No, it doesn’t." Sure it will. You say it so yourself, just a few sentences afterward; "Christians are getting nervous that they won’t be able to attack homosexuals from the pulpit and still be regarded as pious, upstanding pillars of the community." How would this changing view of Christians happen without the criminalization of thoughts?

According to your "logic", Christians are now regarded as righteous (etc.) when saying the Bible states homosexuality is a sin, yet after the legislation passes, people will no longer regard them righteous. Though not claiming any illegality under this bill, you seem to think that peoples' opinion of Christians must change. This is nonsense.

"So robbing a black man in the street is not a hate crime; beating up a black guy because you hate black guys IS a hate crime. We clear now?" Nope, not really; how do you determine the person hated black guys except by determining his thoughts? You're back to punishing thoughts again.

What if a black man was beaten by a group of guys; that sounds like a conspiracy to commit a hate crime. What if they all went to the same school and a teacher had taught them about the ethnic cleansings happening now in Sudan, black Muslims killing (and enslaving) black Christians. Now, that means the teacher is part of the conspiracy; the "hate law" is clear...they are all guilty of conspiring to assault a black man because they "hate black Muslims."

You're right if you think it sounds silly. But that's what this bill will do. By its very nature, this bill makes illegal any thought the Federal prosecutors don't like. And it will, inevitably, lead back to those who take no part in a physical act of aggression, but who merely espoused a point of view.

7 sticks
"Before you go around calling it a so-called "pedophile" protection act, askk yourself this: Who is more of a threat: a reformed registered sex offender and his family or a vigilante motivated by hatred of sex offenders to kill them off? " Neither, actually. They're both fantasies of yours with virtually no examples in reality. Pedophiles in a few cases can control their obsession-- they are never 'reformed'. And your fantasy vigilante murdering sex offenders doesn't exist, though he (or she)would make a for TV movie. Now that you've had your fantasy, can I make up one about dinosaurs that only eat PETA members? After all, if we're making up rubbish, we may as well have some fun with it.

jeffrey
"Faithful Christians, like Fred Phelps, hate homosexuality." And the two hundred million Christians who have nothing but love for the sinner but hate the sin are all unfaithful? But of course. On another thread, anderson and I were discussing the doctrine of invincible ignorance, and how it applied to your ideas of Christian morality. You have just given us a perfect example.

A Moron As Usual, I See...
No matter what day job he holds, this author still follows the famous axiom presented onto him by Bryant Gumble: He's a moron, hands down.

First of all, registered sex offenders could become targets of Scott Roeder-type wannabes who might just want to kill them off for the fun of it. I'm talking about the reformed sex offenders that have done their time in prison and have to wear ankle bracelets for the rest of their lives and have their names printed on online registries. If God forbid, a nutjob taking a vigilant task of murdering sex offenders just because they hate them, well that's a hate crime and the blood will by on our hands.

Before you go around calling it a so-called "pedophile" protection act, askk yourself this: Who is more of a threat: a reformed registered sex offender and his family or a vigilante motivated by hatred of sex offenders to kill them off?

Actually, Robert
Faithful Christians, like Fred Phelps, hate homosexuality. The Bible says to, and in fact says they should be put to death, according to the Old Testament. I’ve acknowledged in other posts that I truly have no clue how Christians pick and choose what to believe in the Bible, and what to reject. But according to the posts I read on Townhall.com, many Christians are pretty convinced that homosexuality is bad, and homosexuals are bad people. It’s pretty hard not to say that Christianity hates a group, when the main religious text, the Bible, says members of that group should be put to death.

If Christians want to make a priority of hating homosexuals, as they appear to want to do, there might be a bit of a PR problem but that’s a choice Christians can make: reject their religion’s hatred of homosexuality and homosexuals, or embrace it, and risk social disapproval. That’s the lay of the land, in my opinion.

Look on the bright side!
This legislation is a full employment act for unscrupulous lawyers. Talk about your stimulus packages!

jeffrey
You used the term 'hate' eight times as applied to Christians in the last post. The only time it was properly used was when it was applied to Phelps and his hundred followers. When you apply it to over two hundred million Christians, you are either clueless or dishonest. Pick one or both.

Legislative Malfeasance
The original House version of the bill, HR 1913 claims, "Hate crimes pose a serious national problem and are deeply divisive." The bill further claims, "hate crime violence substantially affects interstate commerce movement." Contrary to these broad and sweeping claims, the CBO review of the bill concludes "based on trends in federal investigations and prosecutions in recent years, CBO expects the new hate crimes established by the bill would apply to a small number of cases each year." Further, the CBO estimates the total cost to the Federal Government over the 2010-2014 period will be only $10 million (spending $1-$3 million per year nationally) for this "serious" problem. Have any us ever known the Federal Government to be so frugal with such a supposed widespread problem?
Let's be clear - this bill isn't about combating and reducing so-called "hate crimes". Plenty of law and consequences already exists to deter criminal activity. It is all about writing sexual orientation into Federal Law and creating a class of victims who will utilize the new law and the courts to their advantage
Those who have exploited the heinous murder of Matthew Shepard to further their redefinition of morally acceptable sexual practices should be ashamed.

David
I never said you can’t preach that homosexuality is wrong. Hate crimes legislation doesn’t punish anyone for hating people. It punishes people who ACT on their hate, and harm someone. Or incite someone to harm someone based on hate. Christians can decide to hate or they can decide to love. It’s their choice. Christians don’t condemn serial divorcers, like Rush Limbaugh, do they? Why not? Doesn’t Christ prohibit divorce? Why do gay people have to bear all the scorn, as if they’re the only ones disobeying God’s commands?
If you reread my post, you’ll see that I’m just recognizing that Christian leadership isn’t really worried about whether or not they’ll be allowed to condemn homosexuals; Fred Phelps from Kansas, and his angry mob have been preaching hate of homosexuals for years, fully protected by the First Amendment. Not, it’s the bad public relations they’re worried about. They want to preach biblical hate of homosexuals but still be considered pious and holy. It’s a tight-rope act, I’ll grant you that: preaching hate yet trying to look holy LOL.

Re: Please Stop
Hi Ms Kelly,

I would stop responding to Jeffery but his attitude and argument are nearly identical to Senator Brown's from Ohio. Jeffery has stated clearly the real reason behind the legislation and that needs to be dealt with.

We cannot allow a redefinition of "hate" to include "opposition to." We cannot allow "hate" as an attitude to become a crime. Actions not thoughts should be criminal. It is already clear that preaching or inciting violence is already criminal. There is no need for this legislation other than the attempt by the homosexual community to criminalize Christian, Muslim, and Jewish opposition to homosexual activity.

David

Please, stop
responding to Jeffrey. He is the biggest dumb @ss I have ever read in my life, and I thought Hal was bad.

These trolls only want to get a rise out of people. If everyone would ignore them, they would go away.

RE: Lame Article
Hi Jeffery in MI,

You make very clear that the reason for the "hate crimes" legislation is to make sure that society does not tolerate Christians who oppose homosexuality. You say "if you don't want to look hateful, don't hate people!" Your definition of "hate" is exactly what disturbs us as Christians. You see, we do not aim at homosexuals, but at all sexual acts outside of marriage between a man and woman. We aim at these not in hate but in recognition that we are a Creation not an accident. The created design is for us to love others and to Love God. Homosexual activities are not what God intends and those who want to seek Him need to be healed, and transformed. Preaching against any sin is a means of revealing the areas in our lives that are out of sync with God. For me, it was sexual perversion, pride, arrogance and stealing. The same God who wanted me to stop stealing also wanted me to be sexually in line with His design. This has brought me great joy in 25 years of marriage. I am so thankful that my wife and I have shared this relationship in faithfulness and fun :) No guilt, no shame and a great joy have been given to me. This is not hate but a shear relief and joy.

Now, if I preach to others and want to share that joy and point to a beautiful purpose for sexuality you say I am hating someone. That it should be criminal. That I should be ashamed.

I will continue to fight this kind of legislation. Not so I can be "hateful" but so that people have the freedom to have different opinions and state the publicly without fear. So that we continue to have the right to worship as we have for more than 2000 years. So that criminal refers to what we do and not what we think.

David

Of course
Once again we see Obama and his buddies in Congress ignoring the Constitution. What is the point of having a Constitution if the President can ignore it? We the people should be able to bring legal charges against the Congress and the President when they blatantly thumb their noses at our Constitution. It seems Obama is doing everything within his power to trash every protection that Americans have.

Of course this law would be abused in the same way that the fed has stretched beyond belief the interstate commerce law to involve the federal government in things like an individual growing tomatoes in his own back yard for personal consumption.

Isn’t Obama suppose to care about minorities and the oppressed? Who will suffer the most from this kind of legislation? Those very minorities that Obama is suppose to care about. Blacks and Hispanics make up the biggest percentage of those incarcerated and those arrested. With this legislation, these minorities will be the biggest losers as their protection against double jeopardy is eliminated.

Jeffrey
Why waste your life being an apologist to morons? Are you attempting to show off your intelligence by defending a morally and intellectually untenable position?

Lame article
Wow, I would hate to think rapists might be subject to federal scrutiny! What has this country come to?! Seriously, I think the author has a misunderstanding of what hate crimes laws do. The author falsely says that it criminalizes thoughts or beliefs. No, it doesn’t. It provides federal resources to victims of attacks motivated solely to harm someone because of his religion, race, sexual orientation, etc. So to say that someone who robs disabled folks because they’re easy marks is committing a hate crime is false. That’s like saying a bank robber robs banks because he hates banks. Well, no, he’s robbing banks because that’s where the money is. So robbing a black man in the street is not a hate crime; beating up a black guy because you hate black guys IS a hate crime. We clear now?

He notes that race and religion are already covered by hate crimes, which has been true since 1968.Even though they themselves are protected by hate crimes legislation, Christians are getting nervous that they won’t be able to attack homosexuals from the pulpit and still be regarded as pious, upstanding pillars of the community. As society grows more aware of the attacks on minorities, like gays, Christians don’t want to look bad as they castigate gay people, or their right to get married. Well, sorry, Christians, if you don’t want to look hateful, don’t hate people!

I can’t resist: how are “ex-gays” victimized? Oh, he must mean by their Christian sponsors who subjected them to sexual conversion therapy LOL.

The world according to Liberals.

Over two million Americans in Prison and Liberals are looking for new ways to incarcerate more.

Brace yourself

Once this legislation is passed you are going to find out the whys and where-fores behind it.

You will feel like the man that was tied up and forced to watch the rape of his daughters. They want you bound, gagged, and helpless before their grand agenda is fully revealed.

Mark my words, great tribulation from the bowels of hell is about to rock your world. The deadline is upon us, and we choose to fight or be consumed as cowards in the blazing fires of hell!

I Wrote About This

MONTHS ago.

Essentially what this legislation would do is:

#1) Clog an already crowded docket in the Fed. court system;

#2) Permit unconstitutional double jeopardy;

#3) Punish "offenders" for thought and opinion;

#4) Make a gay basher serve more time than a man, who punches a woman in the face during a robbery;

#5) Federalize misdemeanors; and,

#6) Blah, blah and UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Liberals Explain Hate Speech to us?

If a person says to another person "I hate you", that is NOT considered 'Hate Speech'.

If a person says to another person "I hate you because You are White", that is NOT considered 'Hate Speech'.

If a person says to another person "I hate you because You are Black", that IS considered 'Hate Speech'.

If a person says to another person "I hate you because You are Heterosexual", that is NOT considered 'Hate Speech'.

If a person says to another person "I hate you because You are Homosexual", that IS considered 'Hate Speech'.

Would you Liberals explain these 'Liberal Feelings' to the rest of us?

So could someone explain to me...
How one's thoughts/intentions are really figured out, or from what information the conclusion is drawn from?

Also, the extensive classification is also fairly rediculous too. I personally have some things that do set me apart from others, or make life difficult to me as well, but I am not interested in being specially-privileged either, much less recognized so heavily for the condition which I have above what I have produced in talent. The issue as I see it is troublesome, and I also want to know what the withdrawal plan for the policy is?

Either way, that's my two cents.
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