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Monday, March 03, 2008
Robert Knight :: Townhall.com Columnist
Clueless in Obama Nation
by Robert Knight
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What if a presidential candidate claimed that his view on an issue drew its power from the Sermon on the Mount, which was delivered by no less an authority than Jesus Christ?

What if that view contradicted 2,000 years of church moral teaching?

Wouldn’t this be a major news story?

It would if it involved a Republican. Or even another Democrat. But when it comes to Barack Obama, the media continue to ignore newsworthy topics and refuse to give the public substantive details about the senator’s views on many key issues.

On Sunday, at Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio, Sen. Obama promoted homosexual legal civil unions in answer to a question posed by a pastor, and then threw out this challenge: “If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans.”

Not one major network covered this, nor did the wire services, nor did the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, The New York Times or other major newspapers. The Post and Los Angeles Times had brief references on their blogs. CNSNews.com, by contrast, carried a comprehensive story, which was picked up by World Magazine and the Baptist Press. A couple of papers had a brief mention of Obama proclaiming that he is a Christian, not a Muslim, but that was it.

As far as the senator’s unspecified interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount and his equally shocking dismissal of a key passage in the first chapter of the Book of Romans, talk about the politics of audacity.

The senator was right about Jesus reminding us of the inherent dignity of all human beings. We are supposed to love without measure. But this should include discouraging people from engaging in behaviors with known moral, social and health risks, not using government power to tempt them into error.

Can you imagine what the media reaction would be if, say, John McCain stated that he thought adultery ought to get special legal protection and that if anyone found it controversial, he or she should look up the Sermon on the Mount?

By the way, as of this writing, Sen. McCain has said no such thing. But I haven’t yet checked tomorrow’s New York Times, which might be running a front page story to this effect next to the article about the wisdom of wearing tinfoil hats when sunspots are active. The Times, if you recall, did find space on the front page recently for unsourced allegations about Sen. McCain and a lobbyist.

Well, there’s always tomorrow. If the media want to look into the wisdom of Sen. Obama’s remarks concerning homosexual legal unions and the Biblical foundations for such, they might want to know that the Bible is quite specific in several places, starting in Genesis, about what God thinks is the appropriate place for sex, which is marriage between a man and a woman. Even the patriarchs who fooled around with more than one wife paid a price, and the men who took a fancy to other men did so as well, as indicated not only in Romans but in the less obscure passage in Genesis about the cities of the plain being destroyed with fire and brimstone after a mob of men tried to have their way with two male angels at Lot’s house.

And lest reporters buy the current “gay theology” fad of attributing Sodom’s sin to mere “inhospitality,” here’s an obscure passage from the Book of Jude: “Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

Sen. Obama pulled the classic straw man dodge of attacking the one passage in Romans as if this were the only thing the Bible had to say about homosexuality. He also cited the Sermon on the Mount, of course, which the senator has discovered is a handy gay rights manual.

Think about this for a minute. This is about a lot more than the homosexual issue, as serious as that is. If Sen. Obama is right, it means that Moses, plus all Christian leaders over the last 20 centuries until very recently, have all been wrong, as are all the world’s other major religions. Now that’s news.

The media may be unwilling to cover this, however, for one of two reasons.

1) They don’t think it’s a story because, they, too, have had a special revelation from God that everybody until today has been wrong. Or,

2) They know that most Americans believe in God and that information like Obama’s officially promoting sin as a civil right might be a little too interesting to some of them.

Either way, it’s unlikely that we’ll see some space or airtime for this story instead of the latest pictures of women fainting and grown men getting goose bumps at Obama rallies.

The Times, like Katie Couric and company, ain’t a changing. At least, not over some obscure Bible passages.

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About The Author

Robert Knight is a Senior Writer/Correspondent for Coral Ridge Ministries and a Senior Fellow for the American Civil Rights Union.
 
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special rights?
According to the article Obama's comment was in response to civil unions, which are kind of marraige lite. And yet Knight compares this to special legal protection. What a good example of how ludicrous the charge is that gay activists are trying to get special rights, when even this kind of second class status is counted as special rights.

Personally, the right to enter into a civil union with another man would not tempt me to homosexuality in the slightest. But I guess Knight might be tempted by different things than I am. To each his own.

Election time!
You don't need a calendar to know that it's election time. The right-wing freakazoids start in on the gays again. It's the ONLY time you hear anything about gay marriage, etc.

I believe in old fashioned marriage: one man, one woman, one lawyer.

Senator McCain's
adultery already has special protection. He was allowed to get rid of his first wife and marru his mistress and thus sanctify marriage. She can do it again, should he feel like marrying some of the lobbyists he surrounds himself with.


Confused
The comments so far don't make any sense to me.
This article discusses how Senator Obama twisted scripture to fit his own interpretation of how things should be, and how the media ignored the Senator's comments.

Why don't you discuss the merits of what Senator Obama said?

the narrow gate...
Obama thinks that you can take the wide gate to Heaven. Christ said to take the narrow gate.

Obama’s shallowness not only spiritual
Obama’s lack of interest in learning the basics about salvation and the Lord informs me not only where he stands spiritually but how shallow his views on other issues will be.

Nearly 20 years after Obama says he accepted the Christ as his Savior, he

· Doesn’t believe in eternal judgment. If eternal judgment didn't exist, there wouldn't have been a need for Christ's death on the cross to save us from our sins.

· Doesn’t know if he's going to heaven.

· Doesn’t believe Christ's words in John 14:6. He believes Muslims and other non-believers in Christ as the Son of God and Savior of the World will go to heaven.

· Has an ongoing discourse with himself which he calls prayer.

Either Obama wasn’t nurtured as a new believer properly by his pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, or, more importantly, this lecturer on constitutional law didn’t seek more information from the Bible or at a Bible bookstore for Bible commentaries to understand what Jesus had to say. The Bible seems to be a sideline in his life, not his guide in knowing the Lord. Thus, Obama's erroneous defenses on issues like homosexual unions and abortion.

To make matters worse, he challenged black pastors last year to stop exploiting gay marriage as political divisiveness when in fact the black pastors should have been challenging him. Talk about audacity!

Jesus said marriage was man and woman
Those who claim or imply that Jesus said nothing against homosexual "marriage" are either ignorant or deceitful.

Matthew 19:

3 Some Pharisees came to him [Jesus] to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4 "Haven’t you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’, [NOTE: not male and male, or female and female]
5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Jesus was citing Genesis 1:27 and 2:24, and endorsing the original created intention of marriage.

Who cares, jono64a?
So what if some long-dead carpenter said this? If you don't want to marry someone of the same sex, don't do it.

But don't get in the way of people who don't believe in fairy tales.

What part of Matt. 7:12 do you
not understand?

As we've seen from the recent scandals, far too many Republican gay-bashers are a foot from coming out of the closet themselves. Those of us who aren't unsure of our sexuality and who respect the rights of others to do what we don't approve of want don't care about what Ted and Fred do in bed. As long as they don't bother us unduly, we don't have a problem with our gay friends.

jono64a
Apparently we both missed the memo: Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't about sexual proclivities - it was about *hospitality*. Yes, the people of that fair city didn't show a proper welcome to the visiting angels, and incurred fire and brimstone as a result.

http://www.whosoever.org/v4i2/sabin.html

Apparently God views Welcome Wagon far more seriously than previously realized.

(By the way, "Reverand" Sabin is an openly homosexual Lutheran minister. Of course he has no incentive to fit the Scriptures to his lifestyle, rather than vice-versa. He's just a simple man proclaiming the simple truth - truth that has been overlooked by two millenia of Christians, but thanks to his unbiased enlightenment, we can now rightly divide that passage and see its true intent.)

Michelle on the Obama/Muslim smear

Is Hillary destroying her own party and splitting Americans? Is there a double standard for the Billary?

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/michelle-on-the-ob amamuslim-smear

Matthew 7:12
I want people to tell me that sex should be in a marriage of a man and a woman, especially since this is clearly indicated in the Bible. It does bother me unduly when gays try to change our marriage laws and legitimize immorality. U.S. citizens already have the same rights regarding marriage, which do not include the specific right to marry "the person they love," if, for example, that person is a close relative, underage, already married, does not love them, or, is of the same sex. So gays are asking for "special rights." What's next? NAMBLA insists that homosexual sex with underage boys is good for the boys.

Matthew 7:1-2
Oh, and for those who will bring up Matthew 7:1-2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you." that applies to people, not actions. I will not say that person X is going to Hell and Person Y is not, that's not for me to say. I can (and should), however, say that what person X is doing is wrong and he probably ought to stop.

Obama Messiah
I am more troubled by the idea that Obama considers himself (or his puppeteers encourage him to do so) to be Messiah.

Either someone is setting him up for a big fall, or he is playing with fire.

Homosexuality
Homosexuality is a behavior, not a trait. Even if we accept that homosexual tendancies are ingrained for whatever reason (be it genetic, or mental illness, or whatever) it is still a choice to act on those tendencies. Those who have the tendencies and realize the wrongness of them and, based on that realization, maintain celibate lives, are to be lauded because it is a very difficult thing to do. (Maintaining celibacy is difficult no matter who you are.)

Homosexual behavior is called "wicked" EVERY TIME IT IS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE!! In both the Old and New Testament. And it is mentioned in more passages than are listed in this column. Christians who accept their faith believe that the Bible is not simply a collection of writings by or about great men, but inspired by God. That includes the "obscure" passage in Romans. No, Jesus, Himself never condemned homosexuality in the Gospels. It wasn't necessary. Scripture as it was understood at the time already did so on numerous occasions. Jesus also didn't dwell on the evils of thievery or murder. Does that mean those are OK, too?

We are to love one another as God has loved us. That doesn't mean letting other people live patently sinful lives without comment. If you love someone, and they are doing something wrong, you call them on it. Someone mentioned Matthew 7:12 "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you." I would have others tell me if I'm doing something patently wrong so that I can atone for my sins and have a shot at heaven.

It's bad enough that politicians are trying to make homosexuality "normal" behavior, which it isn't. It's disgusting that they are trying to warp my religion to do it.

I'll take McCain over this creep 10 times out of 10. (In fact, he just crossed Hillary into third place out of three on my own opinion of likely candidates.)

Freedom is also a moral thing.
There is nothing wrong with using moral stories to illustrate your theme. Aesop was a moralist with teachings that are highly moral and also practical, but of course we do not take it literally. We know there was no actual Ant and no actual grasshopper.It does not matter if there was an actual Jesus or whether he actually said it. What matters is that it is the right way for people to behave to one another. There is nothing wrong with 'love they neighbour as thyself' but there was no actual victim and no actual Samaritan. However, Obama is looking to be President, not High Priest. We need to avoid the Islamic trap of Literal interpretation of scripture because so much of the Modern Bible has been altered since the early Bibles.E.G. Codex Vaticanus.It takes very little research to discover that Genesis has so many hundreds of points of comparison with ancient Mesopotamian stories about other Gods that this must be its derivation. We have no proof that a Divinity exists, or that the Bible is accurate or,from reading the old testament, that a creator would be benign. Society has to include all citizens and this is why we have secular law because we have enshrined the best of religious morality with the best of Greek philosophy and democratic thinking and refined it by case law and open public scrutiny.It is not perfect but our modern system of law and Democracy is far more moral, far more just, far more equitable than any ancient religious system of law and it is this that protects us from the extremes of criminals and politicians and we should be prepared to die to preserve that freedom because it is that law which allows freedom of belief or non belief in politics and religion.

dsslm
About the only thing Obama has right is that he doesn't know if he's going to heaven. It isn't automatic and it takes real repentence for your sins to get there. And to be truely repentant you first have to accept that you are sinful, and then make a positive effort to reform.

Obama will lose the general election
The more the country learns about the bigoted Obama's and their anti American agenda the more apparent this will become.

It will be fun to watch the panic set in when the Leftists who are now promoting him realize this.

Pew research reports that 20% of all Democrats already refuse to vote for him. That number has nowhere to go but up.

McCain simply has to refrain from any controversy.

Freedomknight
Freedom, however, requires responsibility. Yes, we enjoy freedom of speech, but that does not mean that I may communicate a threat to anyone, conspire to harm the President, incite a panic or a riot (such as by shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater), joke about sabotaging an airplane while I'm in an airport or on a plane, knowingly make a false statement under oath, or have a friendly chat with Osama bin Laden about what the US's next military move is going to be. Those are all examples of speech for which there are laws (upheld as constitutional) to prevent.

In this country you are technically free to practice homosexuality as you see fit. That practice doesn't give you any additional rights such as the right to invent a new type of marriage, or the right to put your partner on your health insurance or claim them on your taxes. Besides that, God says that if you act in a way contrary to His law (set forth in the Bible), you will not see Heaven.

The main problem is that Obama IS trying to be "high priest" by pronouncing a new moral code upon the US where homosexuality is to be accepted as perfectly normal behavior.

Hannah writes:
Confused
The comments so far don't make any sense to me.
This article discusses how Senator Obama twisted scripture to fit his own interpretation of how things should be, and how the media ignored the Senator's comments.

Why don't you discuss the merits of what Senator Obama said?


Because it doesn't fit their political agenda. On another topic why hasn't the Farrakan endorsement gotten any more ink? Same answer. Had David Duke endorsed a conservative Republican don't you think it would have gotten more air time? Let a Republican speak at Bob Jones University and it's a story for weeks. My question isn't how long it took Obama to distance himself from Loony Louis but what traits did Louis see in Obama to warrant an endorsement to begin with? Now that is news!

Obama and Jesus' Sermon On the Mount
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and
God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” (Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity. New York: Rockefeller, 1980. 56.)

IRT Obama, he forgets his reference to the sermon on the mount (Matt. 7:1-5) still focuses on the fact that there was sin in the other person's life, and the standard Jesus was referring to was the God's revelation in the Old Testament. We are told to discern what is wrong, do an internal check utilizing the divine standard (Jesus himself), repent, and then help our brother instead of condemn him. It's called simple, humble, love of your neighbor as yourself. If I don't, I am the ultimate hypocrite (verse 5); haven't we all been there? Bottom line: The Bible is consistent in condemning homosexuality, and we must humbly line up behind and defend that truth.

Don't blame the media...
It's not the media's job to educate the voting public. Anyone who relies on the MSM for his/her voting education is a moron. It doesn't matter what the Times prints or what NBC broadcasts. I don't read/watch them anyway as most people don't.

Obama is certainly a media made candidate. There's no question about that. However, if voters are stupid enough to rely on clips, soundbites and messiah worship to cast their vote, then they're going to get what they deserve.

He brings up faith!! Lilly alert!!!
I don't have a problem with Sen Obama having introduced his faith into the discussion, but feel compelled to observe that:

Liberals excoriate President Bush for having said (when asked) that Christ influenced his thinking the most.
He's been roundly criticised for it (read Lilly).
I expect silence from that quarter about the wonder one on this one, their hero bringing up religion.
Ha!
Any bets?

Obama can say anything he wants
This article is not about homosexuality, it about Obama gettting a pass on everything he says. He also said that Arab Americans are being rounded up - and got away with it. (See AmericanThinker.com today.)

Hillary doesn't seem to be able to do anything right - she's not going after Obama for his obvious blunders. I never thought I'd be supporting a Clinton, but if there is going to be a dem in the White House, it's much better her than Barack. He is a dangerous, foolish liberal who would do great harm to America.


Obamas A Pervert Not Christian
All you who have seen the movie "The Return of the Mummy" will recognize Obama's followers.

Imhotep...Imhotep...Imhotep...Imhotep...

Mind numbed, cleched, robots. I doubt ANY Christian can be fooled by this humanist demon.

Tell them the lie enough times
This reminds me of the quote attributed to Mao Tse Tung, head of the communist party in China for several decades, "Tell them the lie enough times, and eventually it becomes the truth." Now we have Obama telling us that Christianity advocates embracing homosexuality, and mark my word, to some in the MSM this will soon become accepted fact. Nothing could be further from the truth, and while the New Testament advocates forgiveness and sharing Christian love with everyone, it does so with the understanding that we acknowledge our sins and do our best to overcome our weaknesses, not practice them openly and proudly. Obama has apparently let this messiah label go to his head, since he now feels it is his responsibility to give us his interpretation of the Bible.
In response to Hannah, the first responses have nothing to do with the content of the article because there IS NO logical defense of Obama's statements, unless you don't believe in the Christian Bible in which case, why is Obama trying to interpret it? It is starting to smell like these suggestions of Obama having a homosexual past might have some legs.

Marry Only Gays
Gays should be allowed to marry, but only other gays. They should not be allowed to adopt. Shouldn't be too long before they all "breed" themselves out of existance.

Michelle on the Obama/Muslim smear

Is Hillary destroying her own party and splitting Americans? Is there a double standard for Billary?

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/michelle-on-the-ob amamuslim-smear

mellor
ridiculing others faith is no way to win an argument or convince others of your cause. You seem not to be a believer in religious faith which is your choice. But that others believe doesn't make you right, nor does it make point of view any more acceptable than those who oppose gay unions

In 1992, the MSM was so crazy
to get a Rep. president, it was willing to overlook Clinton's draft dodging, pot smoking, miserably marriage, and even allegations of rape in order to put him in the WH. The NYSlimes notorious had ABB on its bulletin boards: Anybody but Bush.

The same "see no evil" is functioning today. They don't really want Clinton but they would never show her as Aunt Jemima as they have Condi Rice. They would never show Clinton as a over-painted corpse like Tammy Faye.

But they can promote Obama and his wonderfulness by not really examining his possible madrassa youth in Indonesia, his strange ties to a radical Afro-centric church that supports the Nation of Islam and anti-Semitism, and his typical Chicago political ties to bad land deals and illegal constributions.

If Obama were McCain, we'd already know if he picks his nose and doesn't kiss his wife hello and goodbye.

GOP doesn't care
Look at what the GOP did to Huckabee. Huckabee never said anything weird yet most experts were roasting him. The GOP eats their own so I don't think they have any right to complain about the liberal left giving Obama a free ride. Maybe the GOP should have supported Huckabee, who could have slammed Obama for saying something so stupid.

Robert
The greatest pain in a campaign comes when you lose and then fine out,you never had a chance to win.This is an election,in which voters are voting against.Translation;The young are not listening to the "OLD",they listen to You-Tube.No OLD people there with their Prejudice and Hate.GOOD FOR THEM and AMERICA!But you keep trying.What else can you DO?NOTHING....

unfair demonization
“Can you imagine what the media reaction would be if, say, John McCain stated that he thought adultery ought to get special legal protection and that if anyone found it controversial, he or she should look up the Sermon on the Mount?”

The above unjustly equates homosexually with adultery and is just another attempt by an unscrupulous necon to smear Obama and demonize homosexuals. Homosexuality being a sin is a debatable point, not all Americans are Christians nor do all Americans subscribe to the religious tendency of demonizing gays. In many instances, understanding religious text is based on the interpretation of the reader, clearly Obama has one interpretation of the bible, and the author of this column has another. The discrepancies and lack of uniformity in understanding the bible (or any religious book) is exactly why our elected officials should not use religious text to govern, and why there should be a separation of church and state.

The author states that homosexuality is “unhealthy” without defining what he specifically means. I think homosexuals should be given the same constitutional rights as all other Americans, to do otherwise is a violation of their Civil Rights, and common human decency.

O BA MA
O BA MA is a cult and true believers will follow him anywhere, sort of like the Pied Piper.

It is not what he says, just that he says it! Sort of reminds me of Germany in the 30s.

old testatment laws
if we are going to get self-righteous and use the old testatment as a guide then we must follow these laws also right?


Exo 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Deut 21:18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die

Lev 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Lev 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Josh 1:18
Whosoever he be that doth rebel against thy commandment, and will not hearken unto thy words in all that thou commandest him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.

Exo 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:21-24
"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of the city shall stone her to death with stones



gay marriage or mixed marriage?
"this should include discouraging people from engaging in behaviors with known moral, social and health risks, not using government power to tempt them into error."

I thought what the author said here could have
been said 40+ years ago.

I don't know about health risks but interracial
marriages definitely were "morally" and socially
risky.

Did government power tempt those after Loving v.
Virginia into error?



Religiouslib
When Jesus pardoned the adultress from stoning with the quote "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" He set aside the capital nature of the punishments prescribed in Mosaic law (which he, being God, is allowed to do). It doesn't change the sinfulness of Cursing ones parents, disobedience of parents, gluttony, drunkenness, adultery, blasphemy, rebelion against God's Law, failing to observe the Sabbath, and fornication.

Nor does it change the wicked nature of homosexual acts.

Religiouslib
When Jesus pardoned the adultress from stoning with the quote "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" He set aside the capital nature of the punishments prescribed in Mosaic law (which he, being God, is allowed to do). It doesn't change the sinfulness of Cursing ones parents, disobedience of parents, gluttony, drunkenness, adultery, blasphemy, rebelion against God's Law, failing to observe the Sabbath, and fornication.

Nor does it change the wicked nature of homosexual acts.

Sorry for the duplicate post
I hate my network.

And lastly
imo government should stay out of the marriage
racket, I mean, business, and it should be a private contract between or among consenting adults.

Government does imo have an obligation to regulate
who can have sex with each other, but should do so
sparingly - incest, statutory rape, etc.
And can also have a say in separation.
Still a big role, but not the decider of who can
live with each other or what happens in the bedroom.

Obama is the Anti Christ
Face it Obama is the Anti Christ. look he gets the messiah label and he attacks people with just words that mean nothing there is not substance to his words or platform. I believe he is part of a sleeper cell. He will destroy America worse the Palosi or Clinton. These people are communists and the media is also. Wake up America!!! if you want to be a homo fine but don't flaunt it, this makes some people sick literally keep it behind closed doors. We allow queers to have sex in rest area's without arrest but if I wanted to have sex with my wife like that I would be tossed in the slammer. all you liberals suck! you are ruining this country with your lack of respect for the constitution. Our founding fathers must be rolling in their graves. I suggest reading the Federalist Papers to know what our founding fathers meant by the constitution. Stop spouting your garbage until you do... Be informed not just idiots.

Huck never said anything wierd, Pinto?
You mean like "aren't Jesus and Satan brothers?" or admitting to eating fried squirrel?

Huck said plenty of nutty things, more than we can count. He was excoriated for a reason.

Not to mention that he's a lib at heart. And a bigot.

Open you eyes, Pinto Man.

Everyone knows
That the sermon on the mount was just a suggestion, and notcommandments. Just ask any megga church whose followers are there only for the pastor, and not the message!

Declaration of Independence - 2008
The power does not come from the Sermon on the Mount. The power comes from our Founding Fathers. 2008 will see a new Declaration of Independence, and it will be signed by the people at the ballot box.....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/03/04/declaration-of-indepe ndence-2008/

I am not sure why.
I am not sure why, but Democrats in general seem to be much better speakers than Republicans. The problem Hillary has is that she sounds more like a dreary boring Republican. I am a conservative and find most Republicans to be like W.,tongue tied and unable to speak. When pushed, Hillary gets just a touch of that famous Bush "deer in theadlights" look on her face.

History, however, is repleat with born talkers who have led whole nations astray. Ask the Germans, Russians, or Italians.

The other point is
not Obama's misinterpretation of the Bible but his audacity in crossing the line between church and state - where is the secular left when you need them? He is stating that he bases his public policy decision on his understanding of Jesus. Hello!

Hannah
You asked, "The comments so far don't make any sense to me.
This article discusses how Senator Obama twisted scripture to fit his own interpretation of how things should be, and how the media ignored the Senator's comments.

Why don't you discuss the merits of what Senator Obama said?"

For me the reason is that different christians place their emphasis on different parts of the bible because they fit better with what those people believe, and I am not particularly comfortable telling people how they should view their own religion, and so prefer to comment on the political uses that those beliefs are placed.

Obama's stated view is that the essence of Christianity should be a focus on the gospels. As jono64 makes clear, Jesus was more concerned with divorce than with homosexuality. The closest he comes to mentioning the issue is in his denunciation of divorce.

Others seem to take the message of the gospels less seriously on the grounds that they can attribute the rest of the Bible to Jesus as God, and so since they agree with the moral message they find there, that is where they put their emphasis. That is certainly a different way to go. And I have no grounds for calling it illegitimate. Of course one has to find a way to ignore the tolerance for slavery and the genocidal rules of war. But if one is going to choose the epistles over the gospels becasue one agrees with them more, that does not seem to be a tough addition.

The Sermon On The Mount
All the above conversation (and Obama's)can be settled by obeying the 7th Commandment....
[ Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery.]

A Campaign Song for The ObamaNation
(Sung to the Tune of Bahama Mama)
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/boney+m./bahama+mama_20022510. html

Obama, Barak Obama
Draws the biggest crowds in town Barak Obama
Obama, Barak Obama
All the Lefties gettin' down: Barak Obama

Hes had two years in the Senate
But hes not President yet
And hes lookin high and low
For all the supporters he can get

So if youre lonesome go there too!

Obama, Barak Obama
Draws the biggest crowds in town Barak Obama
Obama, Barak Obama
All the Lefties gettin' down: Barak Obama

Youll meet his wife
She looks just like a honeycake
She might look sweet and nice to you
But her politics are just too hard to take!

Well, then you'll know just what to do

Obama, Barak Obama
Wifey put him in a fix Barak Obama
Obama, Barak Obama
'Cause of Michelle's Commie tricks Barak Obama

Whats the matter with men today?
Such a beautiful wife,
And no one can stand her!
Its a crying shame!!!"

Obama, Barak Obama
Draws the biggest crowds in town Barak Obama
Obama, Barak Obama
All the Lefties gettin' down: Barak Obama

The thing is, Michele looks
Like a gorgeous movie queen
Shes such a perfect find
But listen to her Marxist rants
You'll surely lose your mind!

Obama, Barak Obama
Draws the biggest crowds in town Barak Obama
Obama, Barak Obama
All the Dems are getting down Barak Obama

He taught the Constitution????
Over and over I shudder when I read how he claims all power for himself. Never heard of the 10th amendment. both marriage law and health insurance are state matters. Go back to the Constitution and leave the Bible for the preachers.

religious lib
why did Jesus come to earth?
If you believe he is God and he died and rose again, why did he bother? Did He visit us, die and rise again just to be able to say, "Carry on y'all!! Just do whatever you want!"

The Law condemned men without offering a way to stop other than continual, tiresome practices of atonement. You do have to establish some kind of justice system before you can tell someone they are wrong.

Jesus offered Grace, not to be confused with 'instant forgiveness and acceptance of all your behavior'.

Grace given to us by believing in Jesus is the power to change and conform to the Law.

If you conform, you glorify God and you should want to because you bear his name...Christian.

Nutty things?
If you ACCURATELY recall the query Mr. Huckabee made of Mr. Romney it was "DON'T THE MORMONS BELIEVE THAT Jesus and Satan are brothers?" The answer to that question is not, as Mr. Romney stated, "You are a bigot!" but is in fact, "Yes."

And as for condemning people for eating things you personally do not like, please do not ever come to Toronto and go to the St. Lawrence Market. You will see things to eat on sale that will cause you to starve yourself to death hereafter. Among grown-ups this is called "ethnic cuisine." And yes, indeed, that can include fried squirrel.

eggman
why do you hate america and americans.

so you realize that the founding fathers fought each other over every sentence in the constitution and it is an agonizing compromise.

just because americans disagree with your point of view does not make them anti-american it makes them american.

if you want everyone to agree with your point of view than go to a communist country.

republicans and morals
republicans don't seem to understand that they no longer have the moral high ground on "family values"

the past 5 years the american people have witnessed cunningham, ney, foley, craig, haggard,and vidder do immoral and disgusting things.

now i am not claimng democrats are better so don't give me your lists, i am just saying that this self-righteousness expressed by this author is simply laughed at by most americans in 2008.

the republican party is just as sinful as the democrats.

religious lib
'republicans don't seem to understand that they no longer have the moral high ground on "family values"'

Both democrats and republicans call themselves 'christian'. Why do you only condemn republicans? Aren't we all responsible to represent Christ well?

'the past 5 years the american people have witnessed cunningham, ney, foley, craig, haggard,and vidder do immoral and disgusting things'

Are they ALL christians? We can only confront the ones who call themselves 'christian'.

If call themselves christians and they sin, does that make the Law and the death and resurrection of Jesus void? No it just means the messengers are incompetent, ill-informed, insincere, deceived. The message is still true even though the messenger is wrong.


Marriage
Marriage is Holy. It is from God. How can anyone say that two people of the same sex can get married? Civil unions are one thing because it has nothing to do with God but marriage is from God. Most couples in America should be getting civil Unions because their marriage has nothing to do with God. If you do not believe in the Marriage of the bible then you should be getting a civil union.

c.h.
please read my post carefully it said BOTH were guilty of sinful behavior.

all i am saying is that the country will no longer accept moralizing from republicans like this author because of the immorality on the part of some republicans in the past few years.


Weak Resume
Obama is not running for Pope. He is running for Commander in Chief of the armed forces. There lies the real problem. The man is clueless in regards to his future employees. In a recent debate, he told the audience that an army captain came up to him and said his platoon had to kill Iraqi soldiers in order to confiscate their equipment because Bush is not providing what they need. First of all, an army general later said that's a lie. Secondly, a lieutenant leads a platoon, not a captain. I have never been in the service and I knew that. I wonder if Obama knows the chain of command enough to know who reports to him.

Pinto Man
You made a good point back up the thread.

And PC reinforces it for you.

Audio
Romney NEVER said to Huckabee, "You are a bigot". Romney was as gracious as any man could be under the circumstances.

What was nutty about Huckabee's query was that he already knew the answer and his question was not innocent. Huckabee threw as much anti-Mormon crap at Romney that he could get away with. Even if you take all of that out of the picture, Huck has some pretty glaringly stupid statements, and some issues problems. Wingtips in Iran, no knowledge of the NIE report, Rollins wanting to kick Romney's teeth out (and more), the fakeout negative ad shown to the press, miracles/math, changing his position on illegal immigration as late as Dec., lying about his role in the pardon of DuMond, liberal, hate-the-rich rhetoric, the fair tax, implying he is God's choice, comparing himself to Jesus feeding the 5000 and to David slaying Goliath.

Face it, Huckabee is a charlatan and a fool. People who vote for him have some serious IQ problems.


Nothing new in such foolishness
I've heard many messages by late Dr. J. Vernon McGee in which there were allusions to individuals who claim their religion to be Sermon On Mount.

So, no surprise of a dhimicrud jilass doing the same.

Just A Thought
The only argument against same-sex marriage seems to only revolve around Biblical interpretation.

Social conservatives' narrow definitions of marriage are not the only acceptable ones! If you look at the TRUE history of marriage it is filled with concubines, levirate marriage, dowries, arranged marriages, property exchanges, sexism, etc., you will find that your marriage constricted vision doesn't hold up!

Opponents to same sex marriage claim they want to protect this vaulted institution. Yet the rates of evangelical divorce and adultery are just as high as everyone else's. Yet you think you've earned the right to decide who can enter the matrimony club when you've stomped all over your supposed 'sacred institution'!

It’s funny that we allow serial murderers, child molesters, wife beaters, rapists to marry (as long as they marry the opposite sex) yet that doesn't seem harm marriage but heaven forbid we allow two same gender people to marry.


Why argue
After 2000 years these geniuses have discovered that the Bible, previously thought to be against any form of sex not practiced by a man and his wife to make children, endorses anything you can think of. Well, they do the same thing to the Constitution dont they? The fact is that the term marraige means a man and a woman. Period. Always has. Always will. All the Marxist bible study and PC lectures wont change that definition in people's minds. Civil Unions are a good compromise that protects the legal rights of the people involved.

religious lib
...so we should abandon moral messages because we don't like the messenger?

I agree that there are religious profiteers. I think the Bible is pretty clear that the message of Christ should be free.

I also think the democratic party has participated in diluting the message of Christ to a message of 'grace'. grace that requires no personal responsibility.

Isn't democrats' compromising Biblical values in favor of 'grace' and 'hope' and 'change' offensive too?

Lucifer666
Why get married?! It's a Biblical ideal. Why do you need God's blessing?

The government isn't 'blessing' my marriage, they are investing in it and acting a quality control.

They want me to have children and if I do they will make me take care of them.

It's strictly business.

One more reference
The author seemed to miss one other major injunction against homosexuality. Now, I know that most Christian theology says that the mosaic law no longer applies, but whether it is binding or not, there is definitely a little bit in Leviticus about homosexuality.

Now, assuming that G-d is not insane and given to changing his mind drastically on major issues, then I would assume if he once suggested stoning homosexuals, he probably is not a major proponent of gay rights.

And, though not a Christian, and not as well versed on Christian theology as many, I would argue that the Mosaic laws which were abrogated by Christ were those regarding positive mitzvot. The injunctions which said "you must do X", as Christian theology replaces those with either grace or grace and works. I do think that most negative mitzvot , at least the big ones (no killing, lying, idols, fornicating, etc.) are still in force, as things G-d disliked prior to Christ he still dislikes.

Of course there are exceptions. Some negative mitzvot (dietary restrictions, for example) no longer apply, and some positive (keep the sabbath holy) still do. But in general, I think that Christian theology accepts the premise that if G-d disliked something pre-Christ he dislikes it post-Christ, so the Leviticus injunction against homosexuality still applies, in principle if not specific punishment.

Well, I am sure some Christians will take exception to my thesis, but that is why I put it out there. Debating theology is much more interesting than work.

Lucifer666-- just a question
Might you possibly have an ax to grind against the Bible?

There's just something about your name . . .

Another thought
I know that Christ did accept a former prostitute among his followers, but only after she forswore prostitution. As he was so conventional in this morality, finding both prostitution and fornication sinful, why would he suddenly become the enlightened left-wing new age man in reference to homosexuality?

If he had an actively working prostitute among his followers, I could buy it. But if he told her to stop fornicating, I think that suggests he was much more "boring" and "stodgy" than "hip Christians" like Obama want to believe.

c.h.
neither party has the franchise tag on religion.

this is why our founding fathers dealt with religion in the very first amendment.

both parties have religious extremists i don't agree with and secular atheists i don't agree with.

i was astounded when i started posting here on townhall a couple years ago by how many conservatives were atheists.


C.H. & dullhammer
First thing Christians are not the only ones with a GOD.

Therefore I don't need the Abrahamic followers’ God's blessing.

Second I'm a tax-paying American so it is in my opinion that it is unfair for my government to deny me the benefits of marriage simply because of the chosen faith of other people.

As for my ax against the bible I would like to use a great quote to answer that question:

"I like your Christ I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi

The only group more clueless
in what the Bible says than Obama appears to be the media which did not follow up the question. This man must not be allowed to skate on his slick-sounding, mostly false sound bites. As a slightly off-topic analogy, his comments on NAFTA in Ohio have been similar; the loss of jobs in Ohio preceded NAFTA, and in fact were helped by export increases to Mexico and Canada.

What Obama didn't recognize also is that Jesus Christ said in Matthew 5:29 (http://biblebrowser.com/matthew/5-29.htm) an action which should be taken if body parts sin. This passage has been interpreted both literally in terms of a single sinner (what homosexuals should cut off to avoid eternal damnation) and allegorically in terms of the body of Christians which should cast out unrepentant sinners.

Lucifer666, you are on the wrong site
when you talk about this Abrahamic God. Go talk to your good buddy Ahmadenijhad about how HE will treat homosexuals. That is what an Abrahamic God says. If you think that because you pay taxes you should get to be married, so should the guy who wants to marry his goat. I see no difference between homosexuality and bestiality.

As far as Mahatma Gandhi, why don't you quote him some more? See the site which says YOU need to reform YOURSELF. http://www.saathii.org/gensex/calcutta/lgbthistory.html

1929 – Mahatma Gandhi enters the debate on same-sex relations once again with a letter in “Young India”, in response to queries on “unnatural vices” in schools. In the open letter, he puts the blame on general social apathy, on the neglect of religious education in schools, and the lack of dedicated teachers. However, he ... instead locates it as but a symptom of a larger disease affecting society. For him the “solution” is not in “sitting in judgment of others” but individual reform.

But Gandhi did NOT press to get homosexuality institutionalized, did he?

What's religion got to do with it?
I understand now what people mean when they talk about petty politics. What in the world does religion have to do with improving the economy, which is the most important issue this year. In fact since America has many religions our Government maintains a separation of Church and State, which I think is a good thing. We were only give one life to control .... our own and this whole debate regarding trying to exercise control over other people's lives is sad. If you don't want to marry a gay person, then don't but don't try to control the life of two gay people who want to get married. In the end they don't have to answer to you ... they have to answer to God. Remember, remove the plank from your eye, before pointing out that there is a plank in your neighbor's eye .... Ut oh ... did I get the plank out my eye? :)

As a biblical fundamentalist...
... and libertarian, I will gladly trade "civil unions" for a restoration of the rights of the rest of us that have been confiscated by liberals over the past 100 years.

As far as I'm concerned... you have a right to enter into a contract on any basis you choose. OTOH, that does not give you extended privileges where the rights and welfare of others are concerned. You do not have a "right" to employment or benefits at a business that belongs to someone who sincerely believes what you are doing is wrong and will not be blessed by his/her God. You do not have a right to do whatever you want on property rented from someone else when they object- still their property.

You do not have a right to impose yourself into associations that do not approve of your moral choices.

Among those rights not specifically dealing with homosexuals... liberals do not have the right to confiscate the wealth of one person then give it to someone who didn't earn it. They do not have the right to use tax money to subsidize bad moral and ethical choices. They do not have the right to indoctrinate their ideals into the children of those who disagree with them. They do not have the right to regulate private industry into oblivion. They do not have the right to purge the public square of religion or religious speech.

Give me my real, enumerated constitutional rights as affirmed by over 100 years of jurisprudence prior to the 1950's... and I will gladly, gleefully assent to a statute allowing you a civil union... which as some of you may know is already a possibility under the laws of most states. You can grant someone rights concerning your property, children, or life without asking for anyone's endorsement.

But we know what this is really about, don't we? It isn't about your rights... it is about denying someone else their right to shun or otherwise disagree with or separate from YOU.

Adultery gets special legal attention
Adultery does get special legal attention ... its called divorce. People don't hold marriage sacred these days, supposedly what God has joined together no man can put asunder. Therefore NO Man, No Judge can divorce people .. and people who believe they are divorced and get married again or date other people are committing adultery.

divorce rates
A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:

11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.


divorce rates
George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

According to the Dallas Morning News, a Dallas TX newspaper, the national study "raised eyebrows, sowed confusion, [and] even brought on a little holy anger." This caused George Barna to write a letter to his supporters, saying that he is standing by his data, even though it is upsetting. He said that "We rarely find substantial differences" between the moral behavior of Christians and non-Christians. Barna Project Director Meg Flammang said: "We would love to be able to report that Christians are living very distinct lives and impacting the community, but ... in the area of divorce rates they continue to be the same." Both statements seem to be projecting the belief that conservative Christians and liberal Christians have the same divorce rate. This disagrees with their own data.


Socialist Confusion of Law and Gospel…

“If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans.”- Mr. Obama


Why appeal to Jesus as authoritative and then in the same breathe deny His words. Jesus also said that the Scriptures cannot be broken [John 10:35], and that the testimony of His apostles would serve as the foundation of His Church [Revelation 21:14].

Why do men pit the words of the apostles against each other and against the words of Jesus? Because they deny that the apostles speak as one while giving us divine commentary on the words of Jesus. What Jesus gives us in seed form and parables the apostles develop into doctrine and practical application. To deny one is to deny the other.

Is the Sermon on the Mount a mandate for government social programs and a license for lawlessness? God forbid! The Bible tells us what it is in the introduction to the sermon…

‘Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom…’ [Matthew 4:23].

Herein Jesus answers the question: What does it mean to be in the Kingdom of God and ruled by the High King of Heaven? The Beatitudes describe the characteristics of the Christian heart. Jesus corrects the lawlessness of the Pharisees giving us the meaning of the Law as governing not only our outward behavior, but also the attitudes of the heart.

If Mr. Obama views this sermon as a word for the state, then he is to be feared because he has confused the Law and the Gospel. The state must be ruled by Law; it has no power to change the heart of men so that they can be self-governing.

The Gospel is the power of God that is able to free men from their own lawlessness and make them citizens of the eternal kingdom. That which is meant for individual men cannot be applied to the impersonal state. This is more socialist nonsense gone to seed.

Often everything Deirdre...
"What in the world does religion have to do with improving the economy, which is the most important issue this year."

The free enterprise system assured by the USC can only work in a "self-governing" society. For the decades when a "hand shake" was contract enough because of a shared Judeo-Christian social morality... armies of lawyers weren't necessary. Laws and regulations weren't necessary when free men indeed did think of themselves as their brother's keeper.

Good fundamental morals and ethics are the underpinning of a safe, free, and prosperous society. The further we part with them... the worse our society including its economy will get.

"In fact since America has many religions our Government maintains a separation of Church and State, which I think is a good thing."

That was never intended. Take the time to read the USC and the arguments surrounding the establishment clause. It was never intended to purge the public square of religion or politics of religious/biblically based ideals.

"If you don't want to marry a gay person, then don't but don't try to control the life of two gay people who want to get married. In the end they don't have to answer to you ... they have to answer to God."

If you want to share what you earn with the poor and old or support humanistic public education then do... but don't try to control the lives and property of other people who don't feel compelled to do the same. In the end, they don't answer to you... they have to answer to God.

You can't have it both ways.

"Remember, remove the plank from your eye, before pointing out that there is a plank in your neighbor's eye .... Ut oh ... did I get the plank out my eye? :)"

Indeed. Respect my personal constitutional rights... and as far as I'm concerned, this debate is over.

Lucifer666
True

You don't like me the messenger, but you like Jesus the message...fair enough. I sincerely apologize for my incompetence and that of my brethren.

Please don't leave this earth without giving your life to Jesus. Don't dismiss Him, just because I'm a failure at communicating the truth.

I will say that hearing a warning and disregarding it is a common mistake humans make. No one wants to believe the worst news. Not believing true information has cost lives in this realm and in eternal reward. We choose to believe what we believe, whatever it is. It takes faith to believe what we believe whatever it is. We can't all be right.

Lucifer666
That was a great quote. It's amazing that Jesus didn't say that himself. Instead he said something like: "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Guess he's been doing tooooo good a job there.)

So anyway, Mr. Lucifer666, you are saying then that you actually LIKE Jesus Christ? I'm glad to hear that. Did you know that 666 is the sign of the anti-Jesus Christ? Maybe you should find another famous person to quote if you really mean what Gandhi says.



sjt18
You are sounding close to what I proposed a week ago.

In my blog I came up with the perfect answer to thew gay marriage question, get the state out of marriage.

Return the ceremony part to the religions where it belongs, and the civil part (the rights/responsibilities/etc) can be established by people using contract law.

Rather than the state saying I am married to my wife, I now have a contract with her giving her power of attorney, the right to contract for me, etc. And I have a religious ceremony, or not, as I see fit, and as my religion allows.

This also solves polygamy, gay marriage, and a host of other problems. If three women and a man want contracts giving them the same legal status married couples would ahve, they can draw up the contract. As the state does not recognize marriage one way or the other, they no more or less married than a single man and a single woman, or two men, or two women.

If we eliminate the state recognition of marriage, it becomes a simple question of contracts as far as the state is concerned. And religions can deal with the religious half.

Of course, the question of health benefits, etc becomes tricky. but individual companies and insurers can decide how to handle that. No need for the government to dictate it, business decide how to handle things just fine without the state.

And if you don't like how an employer views your "marriage", then don't go work for him. Find one who does offer benefits to whoever or whatever or how many you married.

TheHistorian
The Abrahamic God is the God of all monotheistic religions which includes Christians, Muslims & Jews.

As for how Ahmadenijhad treats homosexuals - that is one of many reasons why I'm proud to be an American.

As for the Gandhi’s views on homosexuality -Hindu’s views of homosexuality are as diverse as Christian’s views are.

As for your linking homosexuality to bestiality -it is a weak argument that isn't worthy of debate.

religiouslib
Long time no argue...

That was a little selective with Barna's research.

What were the divorce rates amongst evangelical Christians holding a biblical worldview?

Those answering a small set of questions with the biblically FUNDAMENTALIST answer were far, far less likely to divorce.

IOW's, the less one trusts and affirms the Bible (aka theological liberalism) the more likely they are to be worldly in their behaviors regardless of what they say their views are.

CH
Thank You- however as much as I like Jesus' message it isn't the answer that I need for my own spiritual growth.

andrews
Sounds OK to me... except you need to get rid of all direct taxation again too... which I'm altogether for regardless of the other.

No more income, capital gains, or payroll taxation. Only excises and sales taxes... allowing no one, rich/poor/criminal/preacher/teacher/politician/etc, to avoid paying their "fair share".

dullhammer
There are many great quotes by many great men & women

They were spoken by Christians, Muslims & Jews

They were spoken by believers and non-believers

They were spoken by the rich and the poor

They were spoken by Republicans and Democrats

They were spoken by conservatives and liberals

And just because I choose the use a quote and have respect for those who speak great words it doesn’t mean that I have to agree with everything they say and/or believe nor does it mean I follow them like a mindless sheep.

religiouslib
Just so you know... I'm a Barna fan. I read the whole book... not just excerpts manipulated to support their cause.

He makes an excellent case. Only about 8% of Americans are what he terms born again evangelicals... basically fundamentalists. Theirs are the only behaviors and beliefs consistently different from the decadence of our society at large.

Low crime, low divorce, low out of wedlock births, high giving and charity, etc... basically the unattainable model that is lamented when popular commentators discuss our societal decay.

Woops...
Forgot to mention that that group carries with it some pretty politically incorrect views to accompany its highly moral and constructive behavior... ie. abortion and homosexuality are considered sin unapologetically.

sjt18
hey my friend, where have you been. it is hard to find articulate civil debate sometimes any you are one of my favorite opponents.

i can't stay--i have to go into the field but will try to return later.

i just went to get the link for you and even though you say you read it, i will link it.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUp dateID=95

Lucifer666
Without going any further than this...

Jesus said He was "THE way, THE truth, and THE life" and that no one could come to the Father but by Him.

Therefore, He is either correct or He isn't a person you should tolerate. He is either THE answer you need for your "spiritual growth" or your enemy for so blatantly condemning your view.

Don't declare peace while continuing to fire your cannons... You cannot proclaim Christ a trusted teacher while contradicted the most foundational of all His teachings... that HE and He alone was capable of reconciling you to God.

sjt18
by the way i wasn't trying to manipulate anything, just throwing out some red meat for either liberal or conservative to respond to.

i was in the process of finding it for you when you made that comment.

so you are saying tha 92% of americans are decadent.
whew that seems to be a reach to me.

religiouslib
Yeah. I go there once in awhile when I preach on how hypocritical the "church" is. None the less, read the part where he defines the groups.

The group termed "evangelical" or "born again with a biblical worldview" are the ones who are different. I've certainly never fallen to the delusion that everyone who attends church... even a good church... has a genuine relationship with Jesus as defined by the Bible.

92%
Not my survey religiouslib... but yes, Jesus said that there would be few that found the way.

Decadent isn't the word necessarily I'd use either speaking of the individuals who are undoubtedly diverse... but rather not "true" in belief or practice to the NT gospel.

Decadent is fine with me though as long as we use it by its definition and not turn it into an occasion to accuse me of "hate speech, intolerance, or arrogance".

BTW, I strongly recommend the book if you haven't read it: "Think Like Jesus".

sjt18
"Therefore, He is either correct or He isn't a person you should tolerate. He is either THE answer you need for your "spiritual growth" or your enemy for so blatantly condemning your view."

That is the very reason why I could never be a Christian.

In your view I can't respect Jesus' teachings without also being a follower. I'm sorry but to do so would be spiritual laziness on my part.

And just because I'm not a follower of Christianity it doesn't mean I see it as my enemy - When in fact my only "enemy" is the followers who twist their chosen faith to condemn others who don't share their views on morality!

Since I know my following statement will tick a lot of people off my apologies in advance. I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus therefore I don’t have to see him as the answer in life that I seek.



Economy
Deirdre writes: Tuesday, March, 04, 2008 1:50 PM

"What in the world does religion have to do with improving the economy, which is the most important issue this year."

I'll bite - what in the world does the government have to do with the economy other than hindering it?

sjt18
I am no fan of direct taxation. In my earlier blog posts I actually argue that we should adopt a strict federalist system where each state funds the federal gov't directly.

If a state chooses to adopt direct taxation, so be it. That state will suffer for their choice as residents flee to other states.The joy of federalism, states end up paying the costs of bad decisions. That never happens with bad federal decisions, because, well, where will you go?

But, in general, I agree with you. No direct taxes on a federal level. Actually, no taxes at all at a federal level. Let the states pay a proportional amount to support the feds. That will turn the states into campaigners for federal fiscal responsibility. Instead of hunting pok, they will be trying to reduce spending. A nice change.

sjt18 part 2
Funny thing is you describe yourself as a fundamentalist. I am an orthodox (if not always 100% observant) Jew. According to liberal dogma we are the groups interested in "imposing our wills" on people. As hated "religious fundamentalists", we are supposed to be calling for burning of heretics.

(OK. Most libs think Jews are all liberal. But any who live in areas with a lot of Orthodox Jews tend to view us with slightly less fear than they do evangelicals. Reform and even conservative Jews may lean left, even some modern orthodox, but the remainder of the orthodox are more likely to have conservative than liberal beliefs.)

Yet we are the ones arguing for the state to get out of marriage, while the left is trying to force their definition of marriage down our throats.

Seems the perception and reality is not quite in accord.

RichD
Why, of course the government has everything to do with the economy, as the single biggest confiscator of wealth, and the single largest impediment to the free flow of goods and services, as the greatest impediment to production, and as the greatest force redistributing wealth from more desired to less desired uses, the government in intimately involved in the economy.

It seems its purpose is to find every way imaginable to thwart the desires of those involved in the economy, but it is quite involved nonetheless.

OK
"That is the very reason why I could never be a Christian."

That's altogether your right... by no means am I trying to deny you.

"In your view I can't respect Jesus' teachings without also being a follower. I'm sorry but to do so would be spiritual laziness on my part."

No. It has nothing to do with my view and everything to do with explicit statements made by Jesus Himself. Why on earth would you "respect" a teacher whose fundamental premise calls your view much worse than spiritual laziness though that was implied as well in His teachings.

In Jesus own words, YOU DON'T respect His teachings unless you follow Him.

"And just because I'm not a follower of Christianity it doesn't mean I see it as my enemy -"

I didn't say Christianity... I said Christ. It is He that said he divides...

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Part deux
"When in fact my only "enemy" is the followers who twist their chosen faith to condemn others who don't share their views on morality!"

And that was a classic case of "twisting".

1- No twisting of the Christian faith required to condemn the immorality of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, abortion, etc. These are explicit moral teachings... and by no means a twisting of Christianity. The only twisting being done is by those who are attempting to deny these clear teachings to be acceptable to the worldly.

2- The Bible says that by not believing people condemn themselves... nothing I might do can add to that. We are however commanded to stand for righteousness, against sin, and to declare the deliverance of repentance and faith in Christ. If that offends you... the Bible told us to full well expect it.

3- Morality whether you like it or not is not subject to whims of human opinion. It is every bit as much God proscrived "Law" as gravity.

Whether you share my view on gravity or not... you will fall if you step off the side of a building. Whether you share the biblical view of morality or not... you will be judged by it.

"I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus therefore I don’t have to see him as the answer in life that I seek."

Once again- your right and I respect it. However there is a fatal disconnect between saying that Jesus or anything He did or taught was good... and denying the foundations of His person and ministry.

He either was who He professed to be or else He was history's greatest fraud.

Andrews
Libertarian truths about the role of gov't in society are transcendant.

An atheist can read it in God's natural order without acknowledging God at all.

None of us have a perfect perception of it... but yours looks pretty good. I very much like that federalist idea and agree that states would have a new incentive to limit federal spending rather than look for pork. That would also bring gov't back closer to the people. I think the disconnect between gov't and the individual is a huge part of the problem.

Of course liberals have long been promoting "group rights" over "individual rights" so the more distance they can get the better able they are to classify us as groups with no individual rights or identity.

andrews
I have not seen a lot of religious people actually calling for the government to get out of the marraige business. I suspect, if they did they would find some allies on the left who would approve of that idea as well.

So are you saying you support Obama's view in favor of civil unions for homosexuals thereby giving (so far only partial) equality to homosexuals with no hint of religious sanction?

Lon
No, I am not supporting civil unions. I am supporting the elimination of any government recognition of marriage.

As I said above, everyone can, even today, draw up contracts giving them effectively the same rights as a married couple, so why not just do it with contracts for everyone. No gov't involvement at all. All done via contracts, privately. The ceremonies, etc are int he hands of religion, the rights are by contract, and no state in it.

Of course, given our current situation, I have no easy solutions. As the state meddles so much in matters such as who gets insurance form their employer and who doesn't, stupid medical privacy restrictions, limits on what can be done via contract, etc. it may be impossible to emulate marriage via contract at the moment. But that is not a reason to create yet another special sort-of marriage. Better to fix ti now rather than layer civil unions on top of marriage.

Civil unions are kind of like adding duct tape to a leaky pipe. Or more accurately, they are like poking another hole in a leaky pipe, as they actually make things worse.

It was a bad idea to involve the state in the basically religious/private matter of marriage. Adding more involvement will not make it better.


religiouslib
I don't hate America or Americans, I am one!!! I hate what the Left is doing to this country. They are the party of Doom and Gloom... Oh we have it so bad everything is soooo bad in this country, if you don't like Obama you are a racists if you don't like Hillary you are against women. It is time for a change in Washington I think it is time to clean house on both sides. I am no Republican I am a constitutionalist. I believe in lower taxes, conservative judges, I believe that I should keep more of what I make and give it out as I see fit not at the point of a gun. I believe in the separation of church and state but not the removal of GOD from our country This country was founded on Christian belief. I believe we live in the greatest country of all, just go to Europe and see how they live, small little houses more then 60% of what they make goes to the government. There is a communist faction in this country and it is the left. I grew up poor and have worked very hard for what I have and I believe everyone should do that, not just be given everything. illegals must go home and come in the right way like my grand parents did. I could go on but I think you get my point.

sjt18
I keep promising a more comprehensive essay on federalism on my blog, but have failed to deliver so far.

I did write several shorter essays, and as I thought about it more, I found more and more genius in the true early federalist system.

As the states fund the feds, they have an incentive to fight for fiscal restraint. That was also part of why senators were appointed by states, to give them a direct say in governing, since they were footing the bills.

It also allows states to compete with one another. Those that best serve the citizens get more population, more business, and thus higher revenues. In short, by having 50 different sets of laws, those that work best will prosper and get adopted by more and more states.

And then we also have a greater responsiveness. The fewer people a politician represents, the more he is answerable to any individual. Just compare getting an appointment with a city alderman or county executive to trying to get an appointment with the president of the US and you will appreciate how moving power down the chain of command makes the holders of that power more responsive to the citizens.

Well, I could go on forever on this. I continue to find new ways that moving power back to state and local governments (and individuals) improves things immeasurably.

(Yes, there are some negatives, but very few. The more I think about it, the more I become a dedicated federalist.)

sjt18
"Why on earth would you "respect" a teacher whose fundamental premise calls your view much worse than spiritual laziness though that was implied as well in His teachings."

1.Once again you have point out one of many reasons why I could never be a Christian - I can respect someone views regardless if they don't respect mine. Jesus was a great man who brought people together that is something I truly do respect.

2.“The Bible says that by not believing people condemn themselves” Since I don’t follow the Bible’s God – I’m perfectly okay with the Bible’s God condemnation therefore it doesn’t offend me.

3. Morality – means a code of conduct held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong, whether by society, philosophy, religion, or individual conscience. As much as you would like it to be so Christians are not the only ones who have that authority over morality.

“Whether you share my view on gravity or not... you will fall if you step off the side of a building. Whether you share the biblical view of morality or not... you will be judged by it.”

Why because your Bible says so? Even if that is the case I would much rather burn eternal in the Christian idea of Hell before I deny my own truths.

“He either was who He professed to be or else He was history's greatest fraud.”

And none of us will have that answer until the day we die or he comes back to this world to tell us so!

Lon
I differ with Andrews slightly on that.

If liberals were willing to give me my genuine constitutional rights back even at the expense of many of their own sacred cows and power grabs then I would not object if states established standard contracts for civil union.

However since Obama is a big gov't liberal who has expressed a clear intention to further confiscate my rights and property... no, I don't support him.

sjt18
I would be happy to accept civil unions if I could get other, more meaningful reforms. I am hardly so doctrinaire I would turn down real reforms for a single issue.

But Obama is definitely not the man for less government.

Hmm
"Jesus was a great man who brought people together that is something I truly do respect."

Really?... Uh, no. He did not bring people together at all during his earthly ministry. In fact, by the time He was crucified even His closest followers had abandoned Him. Even after His resurrection, His tightly bonded group of followers numbered in the low 100's.

Though biblical Christianity has created bonds of fellowship unique in all of philosophy and religion, Christ has continued to be a dividing point. Non-Christians argue about Him and divide. Even professing Christians argue, divide, and some have even killed other professing Christians in His name.

That group however that Barna identifies as "evangelicals" aka Christian fundamentalists have held the biblical religion down through the ages. They have refused to use gov't or force to advance their views. They have been uniformly willing to die for Christ but not to kill for Him.

"As much as you would like it to be so Christians are not the only ones who have that authority over morality."

Don't put words in my mouth. I recoil at the idea that "Christians" should be the ones to determine morality. OTOH, the Bible is the book that establishes Christianity... it isn't a product of it.

God and God alone has the sole authority over morality... and has revealed it to man through the written Word and living Word.

ummm further...
"“Whether you share my view on gravity or not... you will fall if you step off the side of a building. Whether you share the biblical view of morality or not... you will be judged by it.”

Why because your Bible says so?"

Yes. It is a book that has withstood critical tests by both believers and unbelievers. No educated person on either side claims that the Bible says anything substantively different today than when it was produced. Therefore it was either the product of 40 or so mad men or else a divinely inspired book. Other explanations fail of their own weight.

"Even if that is the case I would much rather burn eternal in the Christian idea of Hell before I deny my own truths."

Two things. First, if that is true then your conception of hell is a woeful underestimate.

Second, there is no such thing as "my own truths" to be denied. You may be denying your own delusions. You will have to deny your ego (self). But there is no such thing as "my own truth" any more than there is a "my own laws of physics".

"“He either was who He professed to be or else He was history's greatest fraud.”

And none of us will have that answer until the day we die or he comes back to this world to tell us so!"

Actually we do have the answer in the Bible. That was its express purpose- To reveal God and His plan to mankind that mankind might be reconciled to his Creator.

sjt18
I can't debate Christianity with you as my knowledge in regards to Christianity is limited compared to yours.

Also it would be folly of me to the debate Christianity with someone whose religion is so utterly different from my own.

If you believe the Bible is the answer so be it.

But I will NOT abandon my own faith just because other people believe the Bible is the answer to mankind’s entire question. I can only assume you feel the exact same way about your choice of religion.

I do not serve the God of the Bible - and clearly I never will for I’m an abomination to him.







Taken out of context...
"Wouldn’t this be a major news story? It would if it involved a Republican."

Haven't you heard Oprah? She says "He's the One!" So, it must be so, only the "chosen" by the media can get away with such misinterpretations!

Religious DimWitLib
Your opinion means nothing. You obviously Are damaged goods. Your type usually hangs out at KOS or HuffyPuffysPost. Go my son this is the path to your enlightenment follow the bright lights of Obama hear the "WORDS" of the next Messiah. Then grab your ankles and prepare to be boarded, no not waterboarded. Later..............

Atheists love Obama because ...
... they know he's really one of them, for all practical purposes. It's a shame that too many churchians have all the discernment of a dead fish.

MellorSJ2, you must be stuck on stupid. Obama — since he claims to be a Christian — *should* care what Christ said.


jono64a
Would a disciple of Jesus judge a man like Obama or do as Jesus taught? I'd say they do as they were taught.

Obama
"On Sunday, at Hocking College in Nelsonville, Ohio, Sen. Obama promoted homosexual legal civil unions in answer to a question posed by a pastor, and then threw out this challenge: “If people find that controversial then I would just refer them to the Sermon on the Mount, which I think is, in my mind, for my faith, more central than an obscure passage in Romans.”

A politician who actually reads the Gospels, hold on to your seats fundies!

Obama "theme song" suggestion.
Imagine this:
Saturday Night Live comedian Bill Murray in his prime doing the schmaltzy "Road House Singer" -

"feeeellliinnggssss, nothing more than fffeeeeeelliiiiinnnnnggs ....."

"Barry" obviously took his wife's advice, as reported by the Wall Street Journal a few weeks back, when she advised "Barry" regarding his debate performance - "don't think, feel!"

That's right folks, thinking is out. Just feel!

Check your WSJ back issues if you don't beleive me. Mr & Mrs Obama have given up thinking.

Can't wait? Don't wait?
Lucifer666 writes: Tuesday, March, 04, 2008 4:47 PM

"And none of us will have that answer until the day we die or he comes back to this world to tell us so!"

For me, the resurrection was the answer - the next time will be too late.

Faith
How many of you have been, or know someone who has been to heaven? I find it incredible that so many people are so weak and unable to take personal responsibilty for their own decisions that they must invoke belief in what is obviously a work of uninformed fiction. Why didn't "Jesus" let the people in on the fact the earth was round and not flat as they believed it was? Why didn't "Jesus" explain that the earth is NOT the center of the universe? Why didn't "Jesus" explain that the earth rotates around the sun and not the other way around? How is it possible to have more than one race of people on the planet if A) "God" created Adam and Eve and everyone is descendant from them? or B) The biblical flood erased every human on earth except Noah's family? Which begs another question: If incest is a mortal sin why would "god" create a situation that meant only through incest could the world be repopulated? Religious faith and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee and not much else.

The gospel according to Rev. Obama
He will be given a pass on this by the main stream media just like every thing else that comes out of his mouth that shows his inexperience. The point is he is not qualified to be our Commander In Chief, he is far to liberal to unite the country, and he is way off base in what he belives spiritually. Read the book of 2 Timothy 3:1-5 for a picture of the world today. What Obama said was very ill advised and just plain wrong in twisting the words of the holy scripture. If George Bush or some Republican had done the same thing it would be all over the major networks. Our country has lost its first love, we are consumed by greed, lust, abortion, and a form of godliness, that leads many people on a path stright to hell. This speech is just one small example..

To Former
Jesus did not come into thee world to tell people about how the universe was formed, or if the earth was a ball, they would not have understood had he told them. He came for one reason and one only to give you the opportunity to be spared from a burning hell and seperation from God when you die, by accepting Him as the true Son of God. Most of the people who heard him when he was on earth did not understand, even the disciples were confused until the resurrection. The 11 +1 cowards then became the leaders of a movement that spread the gospel to the entire world and over 2 billion followers today. If you read the OT you will find how it describes the earth as a sphere (globe) There are many other such wordings that could only be understood in modern times. There are no atheist, everyone belives something, and there are those who pervert the word, I think Obama fits that mold..

Beastie Boy
"As we've seen from the recent scandals, far too many Republican gay-bashers are a foot from coming out of the closet themselves."
Being a republican does not mean you are a christian.

'Those of us who aren't unsure of our sexuality and who respect the rights of others to do what we don't approve of want don't care about what Ted and Fred do in bed. As long as they don't bother us unduly, we don't have a problem with our gay friends.'

They do bother me, because they want to teach my children how to have gay sex in the public schools and that goes against our faith.

If you quote scripture, memorize this one.
But to the wicked, God says:
"What right have you to recite my laws
or take my covenant on your lips?

17 You hate my instruction
and cast my words behind you.

Taft
Yes. Jesus judged and anyone who has studied His teachings in context knows that "judge not" was never intended to mean that we should not oppose and preach against unrighteousness. Did Jesus not judge the Pharisees? How about the woman at the well? Why did he forgive the lame man's sins if He wasn't judging?

In context, the command against judging was specifically a rebuke of what liberals like Obama do. They judge by a standard derived from their own imagination rather than God's Word.

If anything has been made obvious by this particular incident it is that Obama HAS NOT read the Gospels with any respect for their authority but rather has read his personal bias into them... or else has followed others who have done so.

If he had even read Matthew 5 and 6 and has even a shred of integrity, he could not claim them as a foundation for endorsing governmental approval of homosexual unions.

As providence would have it, I have been teaching an fairly in depth study of Matthew 5 and 6 to my adult SS class over the past several months... Obama's statement is heterodox in the extreme. It could rightly be termed "heresy" in the strictest theological sense.

Lucifer666
I WAS raised in a Christian home so I'm not denying that influence. However, I've never been someone who accepted things just because someone else said so. I have had some pretty significant disagreements with my parents over theology though we largely agree on the fundamentals.

That said, I have subjected my beliefs to a critical review. IMO, logic demands a supernatural creator. You seem to have arrived at a similar conclusion. Even materialists do not deny that the natural universe had a beginning. In spite of great creativity, they cannot explain a "causeless cause" in naturalistic terms.

From that point, one should probably ask, "If there is a God that created sentient beings... would He want to communicate with them in a universally consistent message... IOW's communicate as One with no respect of persons?

That would seem to be a very, very reasonable assumption... one made by most of the people on earth regardless of their religion.

Then you look at the various revelatory claims of the world's religions. Which ones are consistent? Which ones are well attested? Which ones are consistent? Which ones are NOT dependent on persons or personal subjectivity? Which ones are objective and consistent?

Then you look at the internal consistency of doctrines....

In all this, I have found the Christian scriptures and biblical doctrines to pass these critical tests far beyond any other philosophy or religious scheme.

Though I would differ from some of his theological particulars, you seem to be someone who could benefit from CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity". Perhaps even better for you would be Lee Stroebel's "The Case for Christ".

Both were/are men of critical faculties. I think you would appreciate their minds if not their beliefs.

sjt18
good morning my friend

i do enjoy your posts, and your reasonability.

you speak from the heart and with a knowledge of your faith which i admire.

i have had extended religiousl conversations here with posters who seem to spend hours studying the bible to find reasons why only thier view of Christinaity is the one true way.

they quote me verse after verse about how the bible can only be read the way they read it and if you disagree you are not saved and going to hell.

there seems to me to be something wrong with Christians who spend their time (i mean hours and hours) locating scripture to disprove others beliefs rather than reading the scripture as private letter from God to them.

you and i live our faith and don't need outside materials to reinforce or develope our arguments.

what ends up happening is those posters alienate almost everyone who tries to debate them.

not really going anywhere with this, just curious about your thoughts on the subject.




religiouslib
I was first disappointed and then (partly at least) thankful for the failures of the GOP and Bush in particular. They said many of the right things then didn't do them. I then looked at what I had done... I had put my faith in the wrong methods.

The answer is the gospel and spreading it. The only true answer to the downward spiral of our country is a national revival on par with the Great Awakening. The problems are first spiritual then political, social, economic, etc. The courage to engage in the American Revolution was in no small amount a product of the Great Awakening and the preaching of those like Jonathan Edwards. Abolition was very much a movement empowered by the biblicists' pulpits.

At various times our nation has been steadied by strong movements by God. This time can be no different... or it simply will not be.

In direct answer to your question, yes and no. There is a problem if you use the Bible as a club whether the debate is theological or otherwise. OTOH, one should derive their worldview from the Bible and be confident enough to stand by it. I can't and won't agree that a lack of grace is acceptable by any professing Christian... but zeal is usually a good thing.

I may not, and probably don't, understand whatever rationale you are using to justify a vote for Hillary or Obama. However, my hope is that each of us can exhort the other to keeping the main thing... the real solution... the main thing- being God's instruments to save the lost.


More
BTW, unless McCain does something to really gain my confidence... and he has alot to overcome... I'll be voting 3rd party. We are always dealing with humans but I cannot rationalize voting for the lesser of two evils at this point.

Neither Hillary or McCain can be trusted with power. They do not have the temperment and have shown a propensity toward using power to punish/silence their enemies.

Obama is way, way too far out there on virtually every issue. His religious beliefs would not be so disconcerting if he were not the one injecting them into the discussion. I hope that you would agree that his citation of the Sermon on the Mount as a justification for homosexual unions is nothing less than perverse.

I believe that God is telling us that the answer is not with politicians.

PS- I am really, really concerned about what folks like Warren, Campalo, et al are doing to resurrect the social gospel at precisely the moment the true gospel is needed to rescue our society. Truth be told it was Christians following the social gospel teachings of many mainline denominations during the early 20th century that empowered the growth of gov't as a replacement for the church in the business of charity.

Sadly that effort led to literally millions not receiving the gospel that could save their soul along with the material goods to sustain their lives.

One more rl
My family and I went with a neighboring (more conservative) United Methodist church to a homeless shelter in KC recently. Most of the people were gone but we did some cleaning and got a tour.

The shelter was founded by a Methodist layman and funded by interfaith donations. Prior to his death and as late as 8 years ago, they held chapel services to proclaim the gospel to those needing the services. Since then the leadership has become more liberal. They take gov't funding in some form as well. The chapel is now used to store junk.

To his great credit, this UMC pastor was very bothered by that state of affairs and told me that it would either change or that he and other local UMC churches would withdraw their support.

This experience has further convinced me that it is grotesque cruelty to save the body without giving the gospel that can save the soul along with your charity.

Clarified
That homeless shelter had ceased holding church altogether.

I see this thread is ending
So, I wanted to say how much I enjoyed so many of the comments here. I am a Christian and do know that there "are many mansions". My child died when he was a teen. A year later I was diagnosed with end-stage heart failure. My husband was told to plan my funeral. The cardiologists from three major transplant clinics said I would not live without a transplant. I did not get one. I worked on strengthening and enriching my faith, on which I have always relied. I did not ask to live. Four years later, I am still here. I know that there "are many mansions". I know that my Redeemer lives. I feel great sadness for those who do not see but am always grateful to present them in prayer for a miracle in their lives.

zedsmom
that is a wonderful inspiring story.
you are in my prayers.

prayer and faith can indeed move mountains.

sjt18
well i think you have re-written history a little here when you speak of the social gospel ministries causing the fed government to be a replacement.

whether is what the salvation army or orphanges started by jane adams in chicago, Christians stepped up into the void so that our cities did not end up like some charles dickens novel.

politicians being as they are, jumped on the bandwagon started finding ways to help those who had started voluntarily serving the poor.

as far as the social gospel, i believe there is a legitimate argument to be made that, following the example of Jesus Christ, the poor can be fed along with a ministry of Christian values.

certainly,some can wander off track and become more social worker than a Christian testatment but that is something that can be addressed.

my nephew is on a mission in nicaragua and the conditions are so dismal and horrific that he spends much of his time doing manual labor simply to give the people clean drinking water and disease free toilets.

here is part of his report for february

we were visited by a medical brigade. They were twenty-one in all, and that included two doctors, a dentist, oral hygienist, and some nurses. Over the course of five days, they were able to see and treat over 600 people. They spent four days in Bluefields and one in Cukra Hill. I was able to help in translating which was really amazing. I'm really glad that is a skill that I have been privileged to develop. After seeing the doctor, every patient was given the opportunity to talk to someone about their personal relationship with Jesus. People responded very well to this and many people accepted Christ and are now attending services weekly here in Bluefields. I really hope that this group will be able to return and continue this kind of work in the future.


rl
The good works + the gospel are NOT what the social gospel was about... at least not in any biblical proportions.

The social gospel was about a near exclusive focus on good works. It developed out of theological liberalism and the rationalism of the 19th century.

No. Not revisionist- these liberal churches not only advocated for the welfare programs that were eventually adopted... some were unabashed socialists. They believed it was doing God's work to rescue the poor without regard to biblical methodology.

Those denominations are largely shells of their former selves in numbers, influence, and theological/religious significance. Among the UMC churches I've been exposed to across the country for instance... only the conservative ones are growing. The PCA is growing... the liberal PCUSA is shrinking.

If you think I'm really engaging in revisionism I trust you to show me some proofs against what I've posted. The best would be some direct proof of liberal denominations and groups denouncing rather than praising gov't efforts to relieve poverty et al.

like modern promoters
The original advocates for the social gospel also de-emphasized doctrine and the fundamentals.

sjt18
i am not going to give you examples where churches denounce gov't efforts cause as you know i believe it is part of Gods work to move the government to assist churhces in ministering to those in need.

interesting, i attend a united methodist church now.
i am american baptist but the local american baptist church in the community i moved to, was charismatic and i am not comfortable in that environment.

the "liberal" methodist church i attend is growing, we now have three services and one in spanish. sometimes whether a church flourishes or not depends on thier location and facilties.


they are involved in AA, meals on wheels, and missions in mexico.

there is a big difference between the socialist oriented gospel you see in south america and other parts of the world and the idea that the church can minister both economically and spiritually to those in need.

i ask again, did not Jesus do the same.
he fed them first and then preached.


rl
Yes. Jesus fed them and preached the gospel of repentance to them.

The problem with theological liberalism's approach generally and the social gospel particularly is they think the "preach the gospel" part is optional. Jesus didn't.

We've had this argument before but Jesus NEVER advocated that the state take someone's property and give it to someone else. He did not tell the rich young "RULER" to go and tax the rich and distribute it to the poor. Ostensibly, the "ruler" could have done precisely that. He told him to sell his own property. Nowhere in the NT or in the teachings of Christ is there anything close to a suggestion of using or even cooperating with the secular state in matters of charity or works.

"i am not going to give you examples where churches denounce gov't efforts cause as you know i believe it is part of Gods work to move the government to assist churhces in ministering to those in need."

I know you and like you so please don't take this wrong... but since you are ascribing an action to God, can you cite your biblical case for it?

I am pretty sure I can present a very good case that God would not do something that would serve to numb people to their spiritual needs or specifically to protect them from the consequences of their sinful choices absent repentance.

John 6 provides a good case study. Jesus fed the masses. They returned the next day for some more free fish... He gave them a gospel message but refused to feed them. Christ would not feed them when that was an inhibitor to the gospel... many went away and didn't follow him any more.

Carpe Clue-Caveman Diplomacy
Other nation to US: You are torturing our citizens.
Democrat: No we are not.
Republican: Prove it.
Neo-con: Not only are we torturing your citizens, we are proud of it.
Neo-Lib: It depends what the definition of torture is.
Eisenhower: Holy cr@p! I just hit a noisy hawk with a golf ball and now PETA is after me.

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